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Bovinious
10-21-2007, 09:30 PM
So, earlier today I was Cube drafting with a teammate, and I came across the card Dream Halls. I began thinking, why cant every game of magic be like if I had Dream Halls on the table, then I realized: IT CAN BE!!!

So, I cooked up this deck, and its pretty fun, i tested versus Affinity on MWS, and it was unfavorable, but I won one game by Commandeering a lethal Fling, pitching 2 Misdirections. I realize I could have just used Misdirection, but its much funner winning with a crappy Coldsnap rare than a decent Masques rare!

Without further ado, the list:

EDIT: Decklist before Worlds:

// Creatures
4 [MM] Vine Dryad
4 [SC] Karona, False God
1 [OD] Atogatog
1 [FUT] Sliver Legion
1 [SC] Sliver Overlord
1 [SH] Sliver Queen

// Spells
4 [MM] Cave-In
4 [MM] Misdirection
4 [AL] Contagion
4 [CS] Soul Spike
4 [BOK] Sickening Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Commandeer
4 [CS] Sunscour
4 [BOK] Shining Shoal
4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
4 [MM] Unmask
4 [IN] Coalition Victory

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of Singularity
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void

___________________________________________

EDIT on 12/9/07:

Apparently this archetype got some sort of attention from pros at worlds, and while to my knowledge no one played the deck, the pros did at least tweak it a bit, for reference here is the content (with no credit given to the original here) and list from WOTC's site, and

"Created by Mike Hron, Gabe Walls, and almost forced upon Chris McDaniels (a.k.a. "Star Wars Kid") for the actual tournament the deck's game plan is simple: use the White ManaBlue ManaBlack ManaRed ManaGreen Mana cards (any card that costs all five colors) and/or the high casting cost Red ManaBlue ManaBlack Mana legends to play the best alternative-cost spells the game has ever known. Playing spells with lands? Not this time, as the only lands the deck uses are 4 Maze of Ith to control the ground. Cave In serves as a Wrath of God against decks like Goblins, while Force of Will, Misdirection, and Unmask give the deck a certain level of disruption. The end game is usually on the backs of a Vine Dryad or Nether Spirit gone mad with Blazing Shoal + Dragon Tyrant.

But is the deck competitive? None of the pros wanted to stake their World Championships tournament on such a risky idea particularly with a lack of testing under their belts and opted to play other decks instead. What would have happened had they had just a few more days to test for the event? We may never know, but at least you can find out for yourself at your own local tournaments..."

lands
4 x Maze of Ith
mana cards
4 x Dragon Tyrant
4 x Garza Zol, Plague Queen
4 x Karona, False God
4 x Nicol Bolas
creatures
4 x Nether Spirit
4 x Vine Dryad
spells
4 x Blazing Shoal
4 x Cave-In
4 x Coalition Victory
4 x Force of Will
4 x Misdirection
4 x Pyrokinesis
4 x Soul Spike
4 x Unmask

A few of these changes, particularly Nether Spirit and Maze of Ith seem very potent, and I will edit in a current list shortly.

EDIT2: Current Decklist after Worlds:


// Lands
4 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 [SC] Karona, False God
4 [MM] Vine Dryad
4 [LRW] Horde of Notions
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [CHK] Myojin of Infinite Rage
2 [OD] Atogatog

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Unmask
4 [MM] Cave-In
4 [BOK] Sickening Shoal
4 [IN] Coalition Victory
4 [CS] Soul Spike
4 [BOK] Blazing Shoal
1 [AL] Pyrokinesis
1 [BOK] Shining Shoal

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of Singularity
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt


_______________________________________________

So yeah...go look those cards up if you need to. I think this deck may need moar Snapbacks, what do you guys think? Oh and some explanations: The deck works by pitching cards, often 5color Slivers, to your other spells of the same color to answer whatever your opponent does, and hopefully eventually win the game with Vine Dryads, Shining Shoal, Cave-In, Soul Spike, or perhaps a timely Commandeer. I think this deck wants to draw first, since it is mostly reactive and a card disadvantage machine after all. The MD disruption of Force of Will and Unmask makes this seem not too awful against Combo, and Cave-In deals with EtW tokens nicely, if only there was a better clock that was FREEEEEEEEEEE...

ANY COMMENTS/ADVICE APPRECIATED!!!

Soto
10-21-2007, 09:51 PM
You would need something else to deal dmg to a player. 4 Soul Spikes + 4 Cave Ins + 4 Shining Shoals won't come out fast enough i think.

calosso
10-21-2007, 09:51 PM
How do you won games?

Bovinious
10-21-2007, 09:55 PM
Vine Dryad, plus you can also Commandeer something big if you get the chance.

Happy Gilmore
10-21-2007, 10:07 PM
Holy card disadvantage batman!

Skinny Oprah
10-21-2007, 10:08 PM
Holy card disadvantage batman!

SHRUG IT OFF, CHAMP

94teen
10-21-2007, 10:09 PM
Looks like a cool deck. I had something similar once, and it was a blast to play. Quick question though:

I only count 56 cards. Is that because you couldn't find something or you forgot to add another card?

Regardless, I'd suggest some kind of split. Maybe 1 Blazing Shoal (for vine dryad), 3 Last Stand/Cromat/Atogatog? Maybe Snapbacks?

Bovinious
10-21-2007, 10:19 PM
Theres 4 Unmask in the list, ill edit that in, I must have failed at copy+paste or something :( . Optimally itd be 2 of each of the 6 5-color cards I guess for Therapy, but itd be infinitely cooler to be playing 12 slivers, imo. Id like to add some Snapbacks, and some possible SB options are Leyline of the Void and Leyline of Singularity, not sure what else though.

TeenieBopper
10-21-2007, 10:33 PM
You, sir, have broken the format.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-21-2007, 10:40 PM
Maybe one of those cards does more than I remember, but how do you cast the creatures? You say that Vine Dryad is a win condition, but I can't see how you cast it. =/

Bovinious
10-21-2007, 10:42 PM
You remove a green card in your hand from the game, optimally a 5color Sliver but it could be a 2nd Vine Dryad.

EDIT: I should edit in some explanations.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-21-2007, 10:46 PM
You remove a green card in your hand from the game, optimally a 5color Sliver but it could be a 2nd Vine Dryad.

EDIT: I should edit in some explanations.

This is the decklist that I see:

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Sliver Legion
4 [SH] Sliver Queen
4 [MM] Vine Dryad
4 [SC] Sliver Overlord

// Spells
4 [MM] Misdirection
4 [AL] Contagion
4 [CS] Soul Spike
4 [BOK] Sickening Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Cave-In
4 [CS] Commandeer
4 [CS] Sunscour
4 [BOK] Shining Shoal
4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
4 [MM] Unmask


None of those gives you the option of either removing a green card or playing a creature. I'm really lost on this one. I understand that you can remove the slivers to pay for the pitch cards, but how do you actually cast the Dryad which you say is there as a win condition? Sorry, I'm just really lost.


EDIT: VINE Dryad. Not Quirion Dryad. :laugh: Problem solved. Proceed.

Bovinious
10-21-2007, 10:49 PM
Vine Dryad:

Oracle text:
Flash
Forestwalk
You may remove a green card in your hand from the game rather than pay Vine Dryad's mana cost.


You never actually cast the 5color Slivers, they are there purely to fuel the other 48 cards, the pitch spells, in the deck. I didnt not make this explicitly clear at first which was my mistake, and I have editted the first post accordingly. The Vine Dryad can be casted via removing one of the Slivers, and several of the spells in the deck do damage as well. Commandeer can also potentially be a beating.

Illissius
10-21-2007, 10:54 PM
This would be hot if you got to use a Chronatog avatar. But you don't.

Bovinious
10-21-2007, 10:56 PM
This would be hot if you got to use a Chronatog avatar. But you don't.

I dont get it.

Skinny Oprah
10-21-2007, 10:57 PM
This would be hot if you got to use a Chronatog avatar. But you don't.

I'll bite.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-21-2007, 11:44 PM
Vine Dryad:

Oracle text:
Flash
Forestwalk
You may remove a green card in your hand from the game rather than pay Vine Dryad's mana cost.


You never actually cast the 5color Slivers, they are there purely to fuel the other 48 cards, the pitch spells, in the deck. I didnt not make this explicitly clear at first which was my mistake, and I have editted the first post accordingly. The Vine Dryad can be casted via removing one of the Slivers, and several of the spells in the deck do damage as well. Commandeer can also potentially be a beating.



Nonono, I get all that. I thought my last post above made it clear that I was thinking of Quirion Dryad for some reason, and it made me horribly confused.

Other than that small confusion, I think it's glaringly obvious that everything is meant to be pitched--no fault of yours.

ClearSkies
10-21-2007, 11:52 PM
Why are you using only the Sliver Legends? An expirate could hurt you... not like that matters.

There are plenty of other 5 color cards you can use instead of Sliver Legends. Maybe have 1 of each of those cards, totaling 12?

Maybe if you put Dryad Arbors and Vine Dryads, you can alternative cast a Delraich? (Or maybe not)

Really funny deck idea though.

Bovinious
10-22-2007, 12:07 AM
There are 11 cards that have WUBRG in their mana cost, so 1 of each and a random 12th would probably be a better configuration. Im not even sure 12 is the right number os WUBRG cards to run, I just put 4 of each pitch spell that didnt suck in and made the rest WUBRG cards heh.

Tacosnape
10-22-2007, 12:13 AM
Would the Legates be feasible sideboard options? Killing with just Vine Dryad seems sort of horrible.

Bovinious
10-22-2007, 12:19 AM
The Legates seem okay, except the one that requires an Island (the most common land type) needs you to control a forest, which wont happen. The current SB I have in mind is 4 Leyline of Void, 4 Leyline of Singularity, 4 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Chalice of the Void, but some of the Legates may be decent as well.

Also, Coalition Victory and Karona, False God are pretty much better than any other WUBRG card because they cost some colorless in addition, so 4 of each of those then 4 of choice is probably the best confuration, will edit original post.

EDIT: Delraich would be borderline if he didnt require 3 Black creatures :/

thefreakaccident
10-22-2007, 02:04 AM
this deck looks like it would run out of gas pretty darn quick... is it just a fun deck bov. or r u tryin to make it competative?

I only see 2 wincons in the deck, ones a 1/3 and the other is just a little burn

Capitalization, proper grammar, punctuation: USE THEM. - Zilla

Illissius
10-22-2007, 06:51 AM
I dont get it.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10496942&postcount=50

Nightmare
10-22-2007, 07:06 PM
Apparently, this isn't a joke! My bad!

Moczoc
10-22-2007, 07:35 PM
With +8 Baubles and +4 Street Wraith you could reduce the number of crappy cards.

Ozymandias
10-22-2007, 09:49 PM
I would almost certainly maindeck Leyline of the Void, which will help you immensely in your uphill battle to defeat Gro, Breakfast, and Ichorid.

blitz
10-22-2007, 10:34 PM
I'm giggling like a mad man thinking about what trinisphere does to this deck XD

Bovinious
10-22-2007, 10:41 PM
And Sphere of Resistance, and Thorn of Amethyst...I think a bigger problem may be lack of wincons, but yeah those cards are all literally good game :(

Playing some cogs/Wraiths might be okay, but im not sure what pitch cards to cut, none of them seem too bad and all serve a pretty unique purpose. I guess going down to 3 of everything but FOW and Unmask would be possible though, and 4 Misdirection is probably too many anyways.

Cavius The Great
10-23-2007, 12:05 PM
Have you considered Skyshroud Cutter as a wincon? Maybe run Land Grant and a couple forest duals.

Nightmare
10-23-2007, 12:27 PM
The sideboard should be:

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Leyline of Singularity
4x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine

DuKeLiO
10-23-2007, 12:48 PM
You can also play 4 Maze of Ith against Threshold in the sideboard. This deck is really cool!!!!

Media314r8
10-23-2007, 02:18 PM
To make room for the 4 street wraiths and 8 baubles, (to find the cards you actually WIN with) I would cut commandeer, contagnation/pyrokinesis, and cave-in (moving cave-in to the board) I'm not AT ALL in favor of adding lands to faciliate the free spells/creatures that specify (free effect IF you control X AND your opponent controls Y) as the massive card disadvantage of the deck is only combated by the fact that the deck NEVER DRAWS LANDS. The land-spells and lands they need could be dead draws and mar the little consistancy the deck has. Leyline of the void, chalice, and cave in, and crypt for the board, as they do most vs combo (killing goblin tokens, and disrputing iggy/breakfast/TES)

leaving the final list:


//5-Color Spells//

4 [IN] Coalition Victory
4 [SC] Karona, False God
1 [OD] Atogatog
1 [FUT] Sliver Legion
1 [SC] Sliver Overlord
1 [SH] Sliver Queen


//Win Condititons//
4 Vine Dryad (lulz as being the best win condition)
4 Shining Shoal (hopefully they hit with a huge goyf or a plated enforcer)
4 Blazing Shoal (played on your own dryad to hopefully get a 9/3 forestwalker by pitching victory)
4 Soul Spike

//Permission//
4 Misdirection
4 Unmask
4 Force of Will

//Kill Stuff//
4 Sunscour
4 Sickening Shoal

//Cantrips//
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Street Wraith

//SB//
4 Commandeer
4 Chalice
4 Crypt
3 Cave-In

Bovinious
10-23-2007, 05:32 PM
I like Media's list actually, Blazing Shoal is kind of narrow but will help me beat the person sitting across from me. I really want Leyline of the Void in the SB though, its not a dead draw later in the game like Crypt is (can pitch it to things), and beats GY reliant decks harder than Crypt.

Cavius The Great
10-24-2007, 11:02 AM
Crypt is free though and it's not like you have land to play a Leyline, if you don't draw it in your opening hand. I realize you can pitch Leyline to a pitch card, but doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of running the card? Crypt will never be a dead draw cuz it's free. Just my two cents.

Ozymandias
10-24-2007, 11:27 AM
Why not Dryad Arbor?

It's a free creature for no cost, and it's not like you're playing any other lands.

Lego
10-24-2007, 12:38 PM
Why not Dryad Arbor?

It's a free creature for no cost, and it's not like you're playing any other lands.

It's also a 1/1. < Stellar.

Tao
10-24-2007, 12:58 PM
I wouldn't play it in the current Meta becausre this deck is strong, but loses too Thunderbluff, Truffle Shuffle, Dirt, ATS and Welder Survival,

Fuzzy
10-24-2007, 04:08 PM
I wouldn't play it in the current Meta becausre this deck is strong, but loses too Thunderbluff, Truffle Shuffle, Dirt, ATS and Welder Survival,

Ok, now THIS is a joke. :tongue:

Happy Gilmore
10-24-2007, 04:56 PM
Don't forget Wizard Control, unfortunately both TB and Pitch World have problems with it. :frown:

Btw, what happened to that deck that ran a bunch of laylines and Opalessence? That deck was loads of fun.

Bovinious
10-24-2007, 05:14 PM
I think I made a thread about the Leyline deck earlier this year, it basically involved Mulliganing into leylines then drawing Serra's Sanctum and Opalesence, less than stellar I assure you, I think id rather play this deck.

Happy Gilmore
10-24-2007, 05:15 PM
I think I made a thread about the Leyline deck earlier this year, it basically involved Mulliganing into leylines then drawing Serra's Sanctum and Opalesence, less than stellar I assure you, I think id rather play this deck.

link it, I want to combine the two ideas somewhat :wink:

blitz
11-16-2007, 07:31 PM
I think 20 pitch cards are necessary. The resources in this deck are akin to running 20 simian spirit guides and 40 burn spells. You run out of gas in TWO ways instead of 1.

I think the deck needs something like Ichorid in order to actually finish a game, dunno how ichorid would fit, but the deck needs SOMETHING to make use of the fact that all your spells are free, and vine dryads pinging for 1 each turn does not win a game, period. Doesn't matter how much control you have, you will never deal enough damage with the deck in time if you only have dryad, soul spike, and cave-in. If anything, Blazing Shoal should be included if only to pump dryad by pitching coalition victory and dealing 9 damage (this can be done on turn 2, hilariously). I think control is really the wrong way to go with the whole pitching concept. This deck needs to abuse the fact that every spell in the deck can be casted on turn 0 or 1.

And on that note: if we cut a color, we get access to higher CC multi-color spells. I think that, as an archetype, this COULD have potential... but wizards would need to release some pitch spells that have a more permanent effect on the game state.

what about this as a pitch suite:

1 [FUT] Sliver Legion
1 [SH] Sliver Queen
1 [SC] Sliver Overlord
1 [TSP] Scion of the Ur-Dragon
1 [LRW] Horde of Notions
1 [AP] Cromat
1 [OD] Atogatog
4 [SC] Karona, False God
4 [TSB] Coalition Victory
1 [BOK] Genju of the Realm


?

Cavius The Great
11-17-2007, 11:15 AM
Has anyone considered Berserk and Elvish Spirit Guide to make a Blazing Shoal on a Dryad even more lethal?

Elfrago
11-17-2007, 11:58 AM
Adding a little mana in the form of Chrome Mox, ESG, SSG, and/or lotus petal could only be a benefit for the deck.

Cavius The Great
11-17-2007, 01:16 PM
Adding a little mana in the form of Chrome Mox, ESG, SSG, and/or lotus petal could only be a benefit for the deck.

Either that, or Land Grant and 4 multi-colored duals so you can run Legates, Skyshroud Cutters and Invigorates.

Bane of the Living
11-17-2007, 01:58 PM
Innvigorate would be bad in the deck since it only nets you one damage without Berserk. What are Legates??

I think Cave In would need to stay maindeck to not get crushed by goblins.

Can this deck actually win games? (NO it cannot)
I just played a game vs a super janky deck and got him to 19 before scooping it up.

Bovinious
11-18-2007, 05:29 PM
For the pitch suite 4 Coalition Victory and 4 Karona are better because they cost some colorless in addition to WUBRG, but for the other pitch slots any 5c card will do.

So Annoying My Account Is Banned
11-18-2007, 09:39 PM
Do the cards need to just be pitch cards for this deck? Or can we add cards like Patricians Scorn? (that is just an example, that would be pretty awful in that deck)

Cavius The Great
11-20-2007, 07:13 AM
I just played a game vs a super janky deck and got him to 19 before scooping it up.

Maybe that super janky deck was packing tech from hell. :wink:

Cane818
11-21-2007, 03:33 PM
Well I have had a deck like this for a while. I made it after I made the cure. All those nice if you have a forest in play got me thinking. So here is the deck.


// Creatures
1 Horde of Notions
1 Atogatog
1 Sliver Legion
1 Sliver Overlord
1 Sliver Queen
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vine Dryad
4 Karona, False God
4 Crimson Kobolds

// Spells
1 Genju of the Realm
4 Misdirection
4 Lotus Petal
4 Berserk
4 Blazing Shoal
4 Cave-In
2 Pyrokinesis
4 Force of Will
4 Coalition Victory
4 Soul Spike
4 Contagion

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Avoid Fate
SB: 3 Root Maze
SB: 2 Drop of Honey
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void

So Annoying My Account Is Banned
11-25-2007, 09:22 PM
Nourishing shoal is an amazing life card. It is good because you gain life and stall the inevitable loss for playing this god awful deck.

Cane818
11-25-2007, 10:55 PM
well my deck is casual not really tournament level.

badjuju
12-03-2007, 12:11 AM
Could someone post a matchup analysis for this deck, and sideboarding strategies as well?

Bovinious
12-03-2007, 12:25 AM
link it, I want to combine the two ideas somewhat :wink:

I realized that I had worked on the deck but never made a thread, but I just made one now so heres the link: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7797 :)


Could someone post a matchup analysis for this deck, and sideboarding strategies as well?


My current SB includes Leyline of the Void for the Ichorid and Breakfast matchups, Leyline of Singularity for the Ichorid and Storm Combo (think ETW) matchups, and some other Pitch spells that arnt MD probably something like Pyrokinesis and Dryad Arbor for the aggro matchups, you just SB out whatever pitch spell you think would be most underwhelming in that particular matchup :) .

Silverdragon
12-07-2007, 11:12 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/blog2#9

ROFL?
Take that Legacy Community! XD

Media314r8
12-07-2007, 11:43 PM
Is it just me or is the only way to get spirit into play by drawing up to 8 and discarding him EoT? Wow, that seems janky. I LOL'd.

Bovinious
12-08-2007, 12:53 AM
WOW I cant believe they fucking copied my idea and didnt give me any credit...PITCH WORLD IS MINE NO MATTER WHAT LIES WOTC TELLS!!! :mad:

blitz
12-08-2007, 07:03 AM
WOW I cant believe they fucking copied my idea and didnt give me any credit...PITCH WORLD IS MINE NO MATTER WHAT LIES WOTC TELLS!!! :mad:

Don't worry, I believe you ;_;

..*adds maze of ith to the deck*

Happy Gilmore
12-09-2007, 05:59 PM
WUBRG in Legacy

(http://www.wizards.com/magic/samplehand.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/blog2&decknum=1) Main Deck
60 cards
4 Maze of Ith (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Maze_of_Ith%27%29)
4 lands
4 Dragon Tyrant (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Dragon_Tyrant%27%29)
4 Garza Zol, Plague Queen (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Garza_Zol,_Plague_Queen%27%29)
4 Karona, False God (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Karona,_False_God%27%29)
4 Nether Spirit (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Nether_Spirit%27%29)
4 Nicol Bolas (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Nicol_Bolas%27%29)
4 Vine Dryad (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Vine_Dryad%27%29)
24 creatures
4 Blazing Shoal (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Blazing_Shoal%27%29)
4 Cave-In (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Cave-In%27%29)
4 Coalition Victory (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Coalition_Victory%27%29)
4 Force of Will (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Force_of_Will%27%29)
4 Misdirection (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Misdirection%27%29)
4 Pyrokinesis (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Pyrokinesis%27%29)
4 Soul Spike (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Soul_Spike%27%29)
4 Unmask (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Unmask%27%29)
32 other spells

interesting but seems still fairly weak. Lets see if we can make it better. For one thing I have no idea how they are able to win with Spirit unless they go up to eight cards in hand, and if they use any spells before then it is practically impossible. I really like the maze of Ith teck.

Bovinious
12-09-2007, 07:18 PM
Maze of Ith seems good, and Nether Spirit seems like it MAY be alright, one thing I notice about that list though is that there is only 8 green cards to support Vine Dryad, and like Ive said earlier Misdirection seems pretty weak as a 4-of.

I actually think Dragon Tyrant and Blazing Shoal is a decent win-con, what do others think about it?

Bovinious
12-09-2007, 09:07 PM
Sorry to double post:

I have editted the Worlds "coverage" of this deck into the opening post, along with my current list which keeps the Shoal/Tyrant "combo", but helps solve the green card count a bit by having more WUBRG cards and some Dryad arbors as both green cards and extra mans to pump up. Also, I think Sickening Shoal is too good to be omitted, it is better than Pyrokenesis especially in the current meta-goyf.

And grats to DuKeLiO for calling the Maze of Ith tech over on page 2! Apparently that wasnt just the pros after all...

Ninj4
12-10-2007, 03:02 AM
unmask, pitching a black card, targetting yourself and picking nether spirit. oh snaps. how techy >_>

sounds like the worst second turn 2/2 ever.

Cavius The Great
12-10-2007, 12:13 PM
unmask, pitching a black card, targetting yourself and picking nether spirit. oh snaps. how techy >_>

sounds like the worst second turn 2/2 ever.

Yeah, but you obviously have to take a hit in the creature department for such a powerful deck, right? :wink:

largebrandon
12-10-2007, 12:44 PM
I don't like the Nether Spirit AT ALL! 3 cards for one 2/2, great!!

I'd rather play Land Grant/Dryad Arbor.

Bovinious
12-10-2007, 12:48 PM
Now that Ive played with the card a bit I really dont like Nether Spirit either, if its in your opening hand you can EOT discard it, so its really only decent then, and then any other creature that dies makes it dead...I think Im going to try cutting them for 2 more Dryad Arbor and 2 more Pyrokenesis.

Also, does anyone think that now witht he Blazing Shoal/Dragon Tyrant combo in the deck, it may be okay to run a few :0: costing artifact creatures like Ornithopter or Phyrexian Walker? Those may be better actually because they are better blockers and dont cost you a card like Vine Dryad. Thoughts?

Happy Gilmore
12-10-2007, 01:40 PM
I disagree with the black shoal, the white one essentially does the same thing but is also a win condition, as well as a way of protecting dryads/arbors/and spirits. I also think arbor is crap, but thats just me. Spirit is alteast a recuring threat and dryad has evasion. I have a reall issue with how few win conditions this deck really has, I mean, blazing shoal is it really. You either have to have a lot of cards in hand for spike, or get lucky with a Shoal for 8-10. There has to be better ways to make this work.

Bovinious
12-10-2007, 01:49 PM
The white shoal is good also, but I like the black one because its basically STP in this deck, Shining can never kill Tarmogoyf, which Sickening for 5-6 will. Shining Shoal may still be worth it as protection for our few creatures, though. I dont understand what you meant about Spirit and Arbor, but try our Spirit and youll see how hard it is to get and keep online...too bad there isnt a better win-con out there (that I know of).

Deston
04-15-2008, 09:13 PM
love the whole concept of this deck, just signed up for seeing if there is still interest and coming with my own vision of all this.

blazing shoal IS the most powerfull card for the deck no questions asked, but its sadly only 4 cards! on top of that it needs creatures to boot, 4 creatures really isnt enough and nether spirit is just a bad worker here, even though for this deck to work best you usually have to save cards up (potentially up to 8 and discard) pausing will usually just hurt. opponents discard is what will hurt you most and counter can be nasty too, but in the version i am gonna bring up later you will always have manlands to punch too.

pitch cards:

coalition victory - must have
korona = good, but only works 6 on shoals
domain 5 costers, a little low pump for shoals but if you really want five color itll do...

dragon tyrant, +10/+0 bashes hard

palladia-mors, vaevictis something etc (old dragon thingies) 8 mana in 3 colors, need to be chosen to fit the deck.

autochton wurm - jesus, 15, with a nourishing shoal you can gain 15 lives on a turn 1 opponent start thats comboing you for usually about 20-30ish damage and live, they'll have to set up again after, iv also once pumped an enemy creature and pitched shining shoal to reflect and kill.

if you include black emphasis then street wraith is great cause you can increase your odds at getting the blazing shoals, but also use them ocasionally for a needed pitch.


pump cards:

blazing shoal - pumps for 8 (10) what more can you want?
bounty of the hunt - can save your creatures, and surprise hit enemy blockers, who expects semi giant growths anyway?
invigorate - enemy gains 3 life and you gain +4/+4... only worthwhile with fury of the horde but also needs a forest which again asks for landgrant and dryad arbor, too much work imo.

counter/deflect
force, misdirection speak for themselves
disrupting shoal - i like it but it needs a deck finetuned on mana layer, this is NOT the deck for it.
Ill add that in my experience these cards do not work enough to add blue, a big thing for this deck is the fact that cards should always be able to be feeded to eachother and these only feed themselves and no more.

shining shoal - good card but whites other feeders are just poor, it cant kill a tarmogoyf either. sometimes it just misses function too like alternate wins or storm tendrils
sickening shoal, less versatile than shining shoal but can take goyf
nourishing shoal - as said the lifegain can work nicely as some decks are built to deal only 20 damage and really have to stretch hard to get 30+ points done

damage and stuff
pyrokinesis - i underrated this first and didnt run it a while (it only hits creatures and i started just goldfishing this), now its back in im quite happy with it!
cave-in, sweeps 2 on creatures and hits each player for 2 points too its nice that vine dryad is 1/3 with this card, but in the end quite often hitting for just 2 on creatures is usually not enough so its probably much better as a sideboard (even though i think this deck should always run red, so then this card is always pitchable to other red cards)
soul spike - 4 damage + 4 lives and losing two BLACK cards, blegh nah
sunscour = again 2 cards down the drain for a sweep of the board, but you often need your own creatures so itll only be used in situations lost already
unmask = blacks best card, you could probably start running this with as little as 4 coalitions and 4 korona's but maybe with one more card it would be better, this card doesnt suffer from ever being useless because theres always room for discard imo
leyline of the void for sideboard... hmm, it could make running more black than unmask okay but i have doubts on it.
reverant silence, it needs a forest to shoot but... 6 lives is usually better given away than letting the enchantments stay in play that are worth giving 6 lives away for, and green cards can pitch it nicely
land grant, for this deck only useful to get dryad arbor cause youll never have other forests. showing your hand is quite negative cause your opponents must fear blazing shoal, or in case they never matched this deck before you should have a good (very strong!) surprise element

creatures:
nether spirit = no
vine dryad = yes
allosaurus rider = jackpot, in my deckbuild i started running lands just for this one and it can basically be as good as a goyf or something (actually only found this card after having tested numerous deckbuilds already!)

lands:
maze of ith numbs out a beast
treetop village and such needs to much mana so no.
hideaway lands + previous will only be winmore, it can look awesome to use them for getting your big pitch cards in real gameplay instead of being pitched, but you would need to change your pitchbase considerably cause the dragons need upkeep costs you cannot afford
dryad arbor really smells i know, but its still a creature (free too) and green to pitch
pendelhaven, if you emphasize much on green with even treetop and hideaway and possible think about berserk and rancor then... it really isnt the same deck anymore (besides i tried and it didnt work well)
mutavault and mishra's factory - you know
quicksand can add mana which is maze of iths' flaw
wasteland!!!!!! you play for manafree cards, its quite awesome to have 2 of these at start and just get a great advantage (assuming the deck you are playing isnt with little mana)

i run:
4 quicksand
4 wasteland
4 dryad arbor
4 mutavault
4 mishra's factory

4 vine dryad
4 allosaurus rider
4 bounty of the hunt
4 blazing shoal
4 fury of the horde
4 nourishing shoal
2 pyrokinesis

4 coalition victory
4 palladia-mors
4 vaevictis asmadi
2 dragon tyrant

when it comes to the 20 land blocking the pitch idea it really never hurts much since the lands more or less help eachother, also the pitch is almost always greatly ballanced between cards you can use, and the needed pitchsource. its a pity the wasteland and quicksand when shot of weaken the allosaurus, but on the other hand, turn 1 allosaurus + factory, turn 2 land + bash 5 points is an excellent start as far as im concerned.

i dont have that many decks to test again personally, i tried against aggro loam and it got 8-2 there, but i did feel i kept getting 1-2 wastelands and the loam on terrible manascrew, actually the loam only won thanks to seismic assault if i recall correctly. so then weaknesses to this deck would be burn and discard, probably speed to as unless you have 2 blazing shoals you wont kill at turn two (and i dropped 2 dragon tyrants so even that chance is less :( ) even though shooting wasteland clashes with your allosaurus its still an excellent move to make since most decks need/use their land for mana a lot more than you need your guy +1

i really have extremely rarely got (mana)pitchscrew on this, but also i havent really worked on sideboard, maybe the nourishing shoal is better for sideboard but even then its usually the card that gets pitched early for your green creatures, but can also be pitched for bounty or used when needed cause its greenred only, other likely choices would be reverent silence and cavein.

thinking about it now, this deck is probably quite cheap except for mutavault who i heard last week is apparently ridiculously pricey (and i just checked, the palladia et co series do get pricey mostly cause they are old or something, you can probably replace them with cheaper alternatives and not lose that much and anyone should have wastelands & factories anyway ... if i have the cards irl that says for something!)

any suggestions/complaints? :smile:

Cavius The Great
04-15-2008, 09:26 PM
The elder dragons that you've mentioned were reprinted in Chronicles, so they're not as expensive as you think.

And can this deck actually win games? It seems hard for me to believe that it can. Bovi, what are your test results versus Goblins and Threshold?

Bovinious
04-15-2008, 10:20 PM
Wow I havnt actually played and/or thought about this deck in forever, but Goblins doesnt seem like itd be too bad as long as you are running Cave-In, Pyrokinesis, and possibly some number of Sunscour. Threshold seems like it could be problematic if they resolve threats and you cant answer, but most/all of your spells will dodge Counterbalance so you may get some sweepers/answers in after all. Again I havnt played this in forever but Id guess Goblins isnt too bad, and Thresh could potentially be bad but Im not sure, it depends how many sweepers you run :wink:

dahcmai
04-15-2008, 11:08 PM
I hadn't seen this before. I have one question. How in the world do you make up for the enormous card loss?

Kind of seems like a joke.

ssilver
04-15-2008, 11:24 PM
@ dahcmai: Hmmmm, good question. The easy answer is to pitch to a shoal, effectively a slap to the face. The other easy answer is that this deck is meant to be fun, not meant to be extremely competitive. Looks real fun though... I beat someone who was playing this on accident with a first turn trini :tongue:

Spectör
04-16-2008, 09:47 AM
Shouldn't you consider playing the Reaper King in this deck...maybe...?
Converted cost of 10 with all colors shouldn't be too bad :P

Bovinious
04-16-2008, 10:02 AM
Kind of seems like a joke.

True, but dont ruin my fun :wink:


this deck is meant to be fun, not meant to be extremely competitive.

Also true :wink:


Shouldn't you consider playing the Reaper King in this deck...maybe...?
Converted cost of 10 with all colors shouldn't be too bad :P

Again, true, he seems like an auto-include :wink:

Deston
04-16-2008, 02:04 PM
counterballance, chalices all sorts of hate really miss out against this, also most sideboards will pack nothing at all that will be of use against this deck.

about the card disadvantage, take any deck you have and count the cards that produce mana, my suggested deckbuild runs only 14 pitch cards, and you can always get rid of extra cards by pitching either thanks to being 2 color, you start with 2 allosaurus on hand, one + another green card to pitch for the other, same for the fury of the horde, also fury of the horde and even pyrokinesis can pump 7/6 with a shoal. maybe in the original version card disadvantage was more likely to appear to to mana screw on colors, but here its really np.

about matchups im not that certain, but against goblins with 4 cavein and possible 2 more pyrokinesis on sideboard postboard should be really favorable, for game one i run the following effective cards vs goblins:
mutavault and factory are sensitive to their port and wastelands and your wasteland can only hit those from them, but you ARE more favorable in a lands tradeoff (this goes against virtually any deck probably).
dryad arbor and allosaurus and vine dryad are first turn drops, though in fact a vine dryad played as an instant to block is very nice. they cant afford to let you pass with possible blazing shoals, and you can have a double hit with fury of the horde. also since you have 12 turn one creatures those lackeys will be unlikely to ever pass.
quicksand pwns, and you have 2 pyrokinesis. the bounty can be used in creature battles to come out with no losses or extra bash on life. the only card that isnt really needed is nourishing shoal, but even that might be used to trick the goblins to try to attack for a kill and leave themselves open for attack, but theres enough green cards to feed it to.
the worst they can have is 1 goblin king and a few more on sideboard, their cycling damage goblin guy and 4 maindeck pyrokinesis, these combinations arent very complimentary to eachother t hough and you are unlikely to see more than 4-6 of such cards run in their deck.

against ******** which i know worse, theyll never have suitable sideboard cards, counterballance misses, you can prepare for daze, spell snare misses, swords and forces will hurt, but they are maybe not enough to protect their creatures which they need for blocking, they do have draw... you can disrupt their mana nicely with wastelands and im thinking about running ports in the deck possible as sideboard.
if they run red, fear fire/ice, magma jet, lightning bolts you are quite fucked really
against green they will add one maybe two rushing rivers who do hurt, but still have to be topdecked first.
versus black will suck too they have any variation of: ghastly demise, duress and edict, and bob really gives them a great cardadvantage though possible his loss of life contribution can help you ocasionally.

thats what i can on cards, for real numbers i would need some more time, certainly this deck needs cards that dont exist to be truly good, but as it is now i think against several matchups it has a good/great chance and its just fun to play.

ps. what the hell is reaper king?

Fons
04-16-2008, 02:13 PM
ps. what the hell is reaper king?

It's a spoiled card from shadowmoor that cost 10 colorless or WURGB.

Deston
04-16-2008, 03:15 PM
It's a spoiled card from shadowmoor that cost 10 colorless or WURGB.

is it like 2/W 2/U 2/R 2/G 2/B or something? thats supposed to be 10 converted right, definately a nice card then yeah :tongue:

idraleo
04-16-2008, 06:16 PM
...nvm wrong post...

Happy Gilmore
04-16-2008, 11:27 PM
Shinning shoal is amazing in this deck.

Using Maze of Ith they then have to get additional creatures into play in order to kill you. Say...two tarmogoyfs.

They swing, you cast Shinning Shoal durring declair attacker step. They take 8-10 you take zero. Just a couple more spells and its gg. So good.

Deston
04-17-2008, 12:40 PM
Shinning shoal is amazing in this deck.

Using Maze of Ith they then have to get additional creatures into play in order to kill you. Say...two tarmogoyfs.

They swing, you cast Shinning Shoal durring declair attacker step. They take 8-10 you take zero. Just a couple more spells and its gg. So good.

an 8/9, 9/10 or 10/11 goyf? sure, 8/9 is possible but still... who sees those planesthingies anyway :tongue:

sure shining is still nice, but the other white cards are just... not

Fons
04-17-2008, 01:22 PM
an 8/9, 9/10 or 10/11 goyf? sure, 8/9 is possible but still... who sees those planesthingies anyway :tongue:

sure shining is still nice, but the other white cards are just... not

He was talking about 2 goyfs...

Drac
04-18-2008, 02:45 AM
so 2 goyfs is 1 source nowadays huh?
No. shining shoal takes damage from A SINGLE TARGET and puts it where you want it.

Deston
04-18-2008, 10:25 AM
so 2 goyfs is 1 source nowadays huh?
No. shining shoal takes damage from A SINGLE TARGET and puts it where you want it.

thank you, thats why i ended up dropping it cause it seems like too many weak sources and storm stuff and not enough dreadnoughts :wink:

Top Deck
04-18-2008, 11:12 AM
hey what about that black instant rare pitch card from coldsnap? the one that does 4 damage to creature or player and you gain 4 life. Soul Spike... that's it.

Deston
04-18-2008, 03:05 PM
hey what about that black instant rare pitch card from coldsnap? the one that does 4 damage to creature or player and you gain 4 life. Soul Spike... that's it.

three black cards for so little gain, that IS bringing yourself to extreme carddisadvantage.

edit. looking at the original list or the one by wizards i can understand why you would consider this card, when i first tried those decks i was often using it & cave-ins to help drain opponents lifes while goldfishing just because i wouldnt draw any blazing shoals. i run the allosaurus which stays in color for my deck but will mostly be able to deal (much?) more damage than soul spike and has interaction with bounty and blazing.

Willoe
04-19-2008, 08:58 AM
What is, in your opinion, the "optimal" list? :D

Deston
04-19-2008, 12:27 PM
i run:
4 quicksand
4 wasteland
4 dryad arbor
4 mutavault
4 mishra's factory

4 vine dryad
4 allosaurus rider
4 bounty of the hunt
4 blazing shoal
4 fury of the horde
4 nourishing shoal
2 pyrokinesis

4 coalition victory
4 palladia-mors
4 vaevictis asmadi
2 dragon tyrant

thats what i had, i doubt its optimal and im considering at least rishadan ports and a few more small tweaks to suit meta better once i get to know it a bit more (sideboard also) and shadowmoor will have at least reaper king which will mean no more dragon tyrant and even more stability.

edit. two questions i have

#1 on the turn you play a mishras factory or mutavault, can it be made into a create and attack (no summoning sickness?)

#2 if storm combo deck goes off and you use commandeer versus the finisher (tendrils/EtW) will YOU get all the stormcopies or the original caster?

[commandeer: You may remove two blue cards in your hand from the game rather than pay Commandeer’s mana cost. Gain control of target noncreature spell. You may choose new targets for it.]

Willoe
04-19-2008, 01:30 PM
And how the hell to sideboard with this deck? :O

With the printing of Reaper King (which btw is one of the most flavorful cards from shadowmoor), the deck gains a great advantage by gaining a pitch card that can be pitched to well, anything and make double blazing shoal a win condition.

With Reaper King, I'd alter Destron's deck like this:

-2 Dragon Tyrant
-2 Bounty of the Hunt
-4 Palladia-Mors
+4 Force of Will
+4 Reaper King

Why? Bounty of the Hunt is too small an effect, and Palladia-Mors does supply the main colours of the deck, but not FoW. I use Reaper King for the forementioned reasons and Force of Will so you have an out against Trinisphere and other hate cards that COMPLETELY shut you down.

EDIT: Firing up the deck in MWS right now, my name is Willoe, the New Game is "legacy test" and Join Note is "Legacy test", too. So if you want to test against me, just join my games or create one yourself :D

Cya.

calosso
04-19-2008, 01:45 PM
thats what i had, i doubt its optimal and im considering at least rishadan ports and a few more small tweaks to suit meta better once i get to know it a bit more (sideboard also) and shadowmoor will have at least reaper king which will mean no more dragon tyrant and even more stability.

edit. two questions i have

#1 on the turn you play a mishras factory or mutavault, can it be made into a create and attack (no summoning sickness?)

#2 if storm combo deck goes off and you use commandeer versus the finisher (tendrils/EtW) will YOU get all the stormcopies or the original caster?

[commandeer: You may remove two blue cards in your hand from the game rather than pay Commandeer’s mana cost. Gain control of target noncreature spell. You may choose new targets for it.]

NO, to 1 and 2.

Isamaru
04-19-2008, 01:54 PM
Beware the Nixes!

Kidding... but yes, Reaper King definitely gave Pitch World a new lease on life for having a cmc of 10.

Deston
04-19-2008, 02:46 PM
NO, to 1 and 2.

as i suspected, but thanks for confirming.

edit. id be interested to hear if you have any problems running force, but probably it is (likewise to unmask) nearly always a useful card, but brings the problem you might need more feeder cards cause you will always be using the coalitions/reaper king/forces to pay for forces, i would probably keep 2-3 bounty's and perhaps drop one or two nourishing shoals (work well vs storm tendrils but SI runs charbelcher also and in case of EtW you can probably side in the cavein's again, tbh cave-ins are an absolute certain sideboard card imo, they can be very nice in several matchups, but just using them to trade of 2 v 2 life with an opponent wont warrant him always and two pyrokinesis always worked nice for me

Willoe
04-19-2008, 03:21 PM
Beware the Nixes!

Kidding... but yes, Reaper King definitely gave Pitch World a new lease on life for having a cmc of 10.

Hahaha :D Fun fun fun! :P

Anyway, this is the list that I was planning to test (MWS bugged):

4 Reaper King
4 Coalition Victory
4 Karona, False God

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Wasteland
4 Dryad Arbor

4 Allosaurus Rider
4 Vine Dryad

4 Sickening Shoal
4 Unmask
4 Blazing Shoal

4 Force of Will
4 Unmask

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Misdirection
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis

I think that this list is very strong. With 4 pieces of Mana Denial as well as sixteen manlands make the mana base. Although the mana isn't used, it's nice to eventually cast Chalice for 1 in certain situations.

Like Isamaru said, the deck gains a lot power with Reaper King.

tsabo_tavoc
04-19-2008, 03:59 PM
How about evasion in the form of Blinkmoth Nexus?
Why Nourishing Shoal belongs to the deck which gives you only -2 cards and +1 turn to survive?
Just my 2 cents:wink:

Willoe
04-19-2008, 06:34 PM
@Tsabo_Tavoc: I already run blinkmoth Nexus :D

Nourishing Shoal isn't in my build. Lifegain is a timewalk if not a win condition against tendrils of agony. So I'm considering whether to put it in or not. So far, a little bit of testing has concluded that Blinkmoth Nexus > Quicksand. What creatures other than piledriver has two toughness and it worth sacrificing a land on? This card is simply too narrow in my opinion. And it sacrifices itself so it dissynergies with Allosaurus Rider.

Other possible sideboard cards:

Tormod's Crypt - Gives an out against graveyard based decks. Better than Leyline in certain situations, because it isn't "dead" against certain decks.

Pithing Needle - People, you have 20 mana producing lands, 16 of which can be used on turn 1. This is your way to beat belcer.

Winter Orb - As your mana production is relatively irrelevant, and all you really need is to hold back opposing mongeese and such, this card might do against certain decks.

Cave-In - Out against Goblins and Decree of Justice.

Powder Keg - Colorless outlet against ETW tokens, and more important, Trinisphere. A bit silly, but still a good out against most things. Stall the game for a couple of turns, draw some cards then blow up your Keg and bring some Allosaurus Rider's and Dryads into play.

This deck is all-out silly, but with Reaper King printed and some manlands, it might actually WIN games. A semi-large control package consisting of 4 FoW, 4 Misdirection, 4 Unmask and 4 Sickening Shoal stalls the game to net you some more draw phases which eventually is your savior. You almost always topdeck some useful. To sum up, the deck is divided into:

12 Gas cards - Call them Rituals if you like
16 Manlands - Call them Grizzly Bears, Flying men and Llanowar Elves if you like
4 Mana Denial - It's wasteland.
8 Pitching Beefs - four 1/3's with Flash, another 4 potential goyf eaters.
4 Creature removal - In this deck, a 2-for-1 STP without lifegain drawback.
4 Hand removal - It's thoughtseize
4 Creature pump - It's berserk
4 Hard Counters - It's FoW
4 Deflect - It's Misdirection

With only twelve gas cards, the deck might seem doomed as you will run out of it too fast. By only playing three main colors and 1 color as creature pump, it becomes much easier to pitch pitch-spells to each other. Unmask can pitch Sickening Shoal and vice versa. FoW can pitch Misdirection and vice versa. The two green creatures can pitch each other, although the Rider will need to eat two dryads. Of course, the gas cards add much more efficency to the Shoals, but fortunately, they can be run themself.

Theoretical assumed matchups:
Dragon Stompy - Very unfavorable. A moon and you just lost twenty cards of your deck. A 3sphere and you just lost 40. Both and you just lost.

Stax - A Sphere of Resistance and you've just lost 40 cards. The same is true for 3sphere. This might not be as unfavorable as Dragon Stompy, but still...

Goblins - They will overrun you as their army is far more explosive. You got 8 grizzly bears, 4 flying men, 4 1/3's, 4 Llanowar Elves and 4 Vinelasher Kudzu's. Is that enough? I don't think so. However, with an unexpected Blazing Shoal, you should win on the spot. But their Wastelands become strip mines.

Suicide - As you are dealing with very low life totals, you should be able to finish them off with Blazing Shoal. But their wastelands become strip mines.

The rest - Unfavorable I guess, but this deck is tons of fun and should be able to pull some random victories. Also, decks with no mana (well, almost, you use the mana to animate the lands) have always fascinated me.

Discuss!

Giles
04-19-2008, 10:18 PM
4 Reaper King
4 Coalition Victory
4 Karona, False God

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Wasteland
4 Dryad Arbor

4 Allosaurus Rider
4 Vine Dryad

4 Sickening Shoal
4 Unmask
4 Blazing Shoal

4 Force of Will
4 Unmask

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Misdirection
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pyrokinesis


8 Unmasks?!?!

Willoe
04-20-2008, 04:41 AM
This is a mistake, the 4 Unmask's just below FoW should be Misdirection :)

Deston
04-20-2008, 01:56 PM
hmm, i really wonder if you wont get any problems going with 4 colors, id surely suspect youd have to drop the allosaurus and with that you can instantly lose the dryad arbor as well when theres no more allosaurus.

edit.

question about trinisphere;

trinisphere is out, if i want to play for example a vine dryad, do i have to both remove and green card AND pay 3 more mana?

Nightmare
04-29-2008, 02:01 PM
Yeah, this has gone on for long enough.

Sanguine Voyeur
04-29-2008, 02:24 PM
Dodging that black hole maelstrom...
question about trinisphere;

trinisphere is out, if i want to play for example a vine dryad, do i have to both remove and green card AND pay 3 more mana?Yes, you'd have to pay three mana even if you play the alternate cost.

WiLdFiRe
05-29-2008, 03:00 AM
So...last I heard this deck got a major upgrade in Reaper King from Shadowmoor, has anyone put any thought into this or made any recent builds of this archetype? Im shore the decks creator will be along eventually with a new build, but I hear hes open to ideas as well! :wink:

Nice try Bov...

Deston
09-09-2008, 08:03 PM
lol havent played in months, just played this deck again a few times on mws.

came against bloodmoon deck (i had a heartattack when he first turned trinisphere, considered being lame and quitting)
still won G1
G2 he had a T2 blood moon before i was able to use my manlands, soon followed with trinisphere. almost won but i let him correct an error which kept him on 2 life and didnt draw creature so died like 10 turns later :S
G3 won

T1 trinisphere and still win, i love my deck

now considering running blinkmoths instead of wasteland because wasteblasting doesnt help my ridergoyf. actually thinking about evasion + blazing shoal now i will try the blinkmoths a while now.

blacklotus3636
09-09-2008, 11:39 PM
I suppose this is legacy's version of a manaless deck. As a manaless deck it is very dependant on certain cards and can't win without them. In short the deck cannot win without blazing shoal so I feel a good portion of the deck should make use of the free deck thinning. Since any creature for this type of deck will be fragile it only makes sense to pack disruption and protection because without a creature sticking to the table for at least 1 turn you lose the game. Furthermore, it seems obvious to me that there will usually be at least one creature in play by the time you go for the win with shoal so the creature you use should have ways to get through. Here's what I thought up:

4 blazing shoal
4 force of will
4 unmask
4 misdirection
4 reaper king
4 coalition victory
4 karona false god
4 cave in
4 pyrokenesis
4 maze of ith
4 ornithopter
4 vine dryad
4 urza's bauble
4 mishra's bauble
4 street wraith

I struggled with whether or not to add shining shoal. At best its a five point burn spell to the head and saves you a turn of damage and/or saves a creature and damage to the head. It could be worse or better than pyrokenesis but pyrokenesis will consistently wipe 1-3 creatures from the board. I thought about nether spirit but the fact that it has no way of getting past creatures means it could make it hard to make blazing shoal work. However there are obvious advantages of including nether spirit and/or dryad arbor because it makes threats uncounterable. I'm not saying these arguments are settled, its just my take on it.

So far I think the idea has promise but I think one with mana may end up being competitive because of the much larger range of options you would have as well as added flexibility in dealing with threats. Beserk + blazing shoal is obviously hot plus a little burn could be a quick win.

Zinch
09-10-2008, 05:12 AM
You could always play ESG and lotus petal to play the berserkers... :wink:

Skeggi
09-10-2008, 05:23 AM
Most of your cards are RUB, in fact, the only card that needs green is Vine Dryad, and instead of Vine Dryad you could play Phyrexian Walker (or Dryad Arbor if you value the fact that it does 1 damage on its own...and it makes :g: if you want berserk). You could then replace False God with Nicol Bolas and add 2 to your shoal for instance. I wouldn't add the white shoal then, ofcourse.

Zinch
09-10-2008, 05:32 AM
Putting dryad arbor in this deck is just cheating: is a landless deck :tongue:

MTG Guru
09-10-2008, 05:37 AM
lol havent played in months, just played this deck again a few times on mws.

came against bloodmoon deck (i had a heartattack when he first turned trinisphere, considered being lame and quitting)
still won G1
G2 he had a T2 blood moon before i was able to use my manlands, soon followed with trinisphere. almost won but i let him correct an error which kept him on 2 life and didnt draw creature so died like 10 turns later :S
G3 won

T1 trinisphere and still win, i love my deck

now considering running blinkmoths instead of wasteland because wasteblasting doesnt help my ridergoyf. actually thinking about evasion + blazing shoal now i will try the blinkmoths a while now.

Is this a joke? How on earth do you win versus a turn one Trinisphere?

Deston
09-10-2008, 09:02 AM
Is this a joke? How on earth do you win versus a turn one Trinisphere?

i dunno either it was a fucking miracle :laugh:

actually, i won the dice and started my turn with allosaurus rider and mishras maybe some people dont realise this but allosaurus rider is as good as tarmogoyf if not better (faster large). admittedly this is only true for this deck and no other in the world but nevertheless it may be better card than blazing shoal even.

T1 allosaurus rider + 2/2 manland
T2 second land strike for 5 damage with manland and rider
i play 20 lands so normally the rider has no difficulty getting large.

i dont know, it helps ofcourse no one knows wtf is hitting them when this deck comes against them and it helps i know quite well what most other decks weaknesses are too. for some reason many cards tend to be gamewinners, ie the forestwalk dryad pulls through for me against loam or i get a godhand and T2 kill combo. its possible to win my first turn when im on the draw as quickest and although that never happened to me yet, im sure ill laugh very very loudly when it does. (likely followed by someone quitting)

what i run now with comments to cards:

4 blinkmoth nexus - just started running this, unsure about it yet
4 rishadan port - usually i end up tapping for manland mana
4 dryad arbor - kinda bad, but ocasionally works
4 mutavault - manland, can be pumped by blinkmoth and factories
4 mishra's factory - manland, no comment

4 vine dryad - usually played instant, weak offensive but forestwalk evasion
4 allosaurus rider - top card, potential game winner
4 bounty of the hunt - soso, but sometimes works or saves your guys
4 blazing shoal - top card, potential game winner
3 fury of the horde - lately there are always blockers around in the games i play, my opposition almost never blocks me but when i use bounty/blazing and get big on the first attack run, they will just block on the second return. might cut one for the 4th pyrokinesis.
3 nourishing shoal - people commented it only saves you one turn (ill probably say 2 actually) and in some matchups hes useless and gets pitched and in some cases he's quite valuable. you can attack with your creatures and next turn opponent will use all his to get you dead (its unlikely he would need less than all because you have a faster clock than most all creature running decks)
3 pyrokinesis - i keep adding another one of these they are just fantastic and easily keep cave-in on sb, almost always gets used.

4 coalition victory - eight mana five colors
4 palladia-mors - eight mana my colors (RG)
3 vaevictis asmadi - eight mana my colors (RG)
4 reaper king - ten mana, x=10 :tongue:


1 pyrokinesis
4 wasteland
4 cave-in
2 land grant
4 reverent silence

unsure about the sideboards, never really used more than pyrokinesis and cave-in against creatureplenty decks. i imagine wastelands back in against a deck that needs their lands more than you, and anti-enchanment option should work with the arbors against prison type decks. wish there were anti-artifact options but regrettably there are non. some of the worst cards you can run into are trinisphere, bloodmoon and gaddock teeg. discard is horrible also but the ocasional FOW isnt that bad as i usually trick them into taking out a weak spell and then bringing the good stuff, counterheavy decks should be bad to handle the manlands except if they run back to basics.

i cannot stress enough that its likely just experience and surprise that makes me win a lot, but there is a good clock and its pretty consistent imho. i dont often lose.:cool:

Willoe
09-10-2008, 11:37 AM
I have a FoW version:

4 Allosaurus Rider
4 Vine Dryad
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Blazing Shoal
4 Pyrokinesis

4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection

4 Reaper King
4 Coalition Victory
4 Karona, False God

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Blinknmoth Nexus
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland

A three colored version that functions rather... Fun, but sucky. I really think that this deck is sucking some giant balls at the moment, but Reaper King really pushed a few inches into tier 5.

But the deck has some strengths against combo. Unmask, Misdirection and Force of Will all hoses combo enough time so that you can run them over with Allosaurus Rider. Dunno if the green count is too low. Rider costs 2 cards, after all.

Deston
09-10-2008, 11:58 AM
i have only had 1 game in 20 or so today where i drew 3 fuelcards and nothing else and besides that still won the game. besides that the pitching and colors is virtually perfect each time for me. i do regret not playing offcolors because if i could run RGU cards for 8CMC forces would be instainclude and misdirections on sideboard, as it is now though i dont like the tradeoff when i play with FOW or black with unmask. liked white best with shining shoals and running autochton wurm because 15 cmc nourishing shoals, 2 cards, 15 life ftw.

like a lot better than the upcoming:

Lich's Mirror
5
Artifact
Mythic

If you would lose the game, instead shuffle your hand, your graveyard and all permanents you own into your library, then draw seven cards and your life total becomes 20.

:laugh:

Piceli89
02-21-2009, 01:40 PM
Hey, massive riesumation but here it is a card which will boost this deck to the range of tier1: y'all are hearing about Progenitus being played with Natural order, but hey ! wait a moment ! he's a 10 mana 5-colored fuel card! fuck ya tiny karona ! Furthermore, i found relic of progenitus to be a good potential card for this deck, since it can cantrip and keep the yard cleaned at the cheap cost of 1 colorless.
Come on, this deck has serious potential to become important... perhaps.

Clark Kant
05-05-2011, 06:20 PM
Didn't this archeatype just get a huge boost from New Phyrexia as well as the new Leylines.

I would think fans would be salivating to try to make this deck as good as humanly possible once again.

perm
05-06-2011, 02:45 AM
Does anyone realize what a huge boon chancellors are? Black and white

zabuza
05-06-2011, 12:27 PM
have you thought on including inkmoth nexus (yeah, the infect one) and glistener elf?? They are a one shot win with shoal and people usually are afraid of them.

What about playing invigorate and berserk??

Admiral_Arzar
05-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Blazing Shoal + Inkmoth is probably the most awesome idea ever. Assuming we play Progenitus for the one-shot kill, that is.

Koby
05-06-2011, 12:56 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Reaper King also have CMC = 10?

And yes Inky makes Blazing Shoal very very nice turn 2 Kill!

Admiral_Arzar
05-06-2011, 12:58 PM
Yes.

Guy I Don't Know
05-06-2011, 04:09 PM
Gitaxian Probe seems like it could be good, Pitch for blue and sees their hand plus draws a card making the deck effectively smaller

Cire
05-06-2011, 04:25 PM
Wouldn't the Red Chancellor be a good replacement for Allosaurus Rider? The Rider rarely gets big enough fast enough to compete with opposing creatures. Another upside is the god hand 1st turn win of Red chancellor, Shoal, 10cc, ((Shoal, 10cc)/ (Fury of the hoard)) [oh and the chancellor could be used to pitch to the hoard...so you only need 6 cards regardless lol). Downside is that the red chancellor can't be played after the 1st turn.

Dismember is another card this deck might want... 1 colorless lose 4 life destroy target creature basically....

Squirrel
05-06-2011, 04:26 PM
I play this Deck for fun sometimes(online).

I focussed on Inkmoth Nexus, here's my List

4 Blazing Shoal
4 Force of Will
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Progenitus
4 Reaper King
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Maze of Ith
2 Pendelhaven
4 Petrified Field
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
4 Coalition Victory
4 Conflux
3 Unmask
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Misdirection

i play many Lands to stop opponent creatures, so its some kind of suboptimal lands too, but i hope New Phyrexia pushes this Deck to Tier 4 :-)

Richard Cheese
05-06-2011, 06:19 PM
If you really want to go Inkmoth+Progenitus/Reaper King win, why not run Living Wish and possibly also Crop Rotation to dig for that stuff instead of $1200 worth of churches to try and slow down creature-based lists? Remember, a lot of decks in this format win without running creatures at all.

tsabo_tavoc
05-06-2011, 07:25 PM
Wouldn't the Red Chancellor be a good replacement for Allosaurus Rider? The Rider rarely gets big enough fast enough to compete with opposing creatures. Another upside is the god hand 1st turn win of Red chancellor, Shoal, 10cc, ((Shoal, 10cc)/ (Fury of the hoard)) [oh and the chancellor could be used to pitch to the hoard...so you only need 6 cards regardless lol). Downside is that the red chancellor can't be played after the 1st turn.

Dismember is another card this deck might want... 1 colorless lose 4 life destroy target creature basically....

Red Chancellor is a nice inclusion and the CA in this deck:) While there can be many ways to break Inkmoth+Shoal, I don't play any mana sources for flavor reasons.

Pitched: 16
4 Reaper King
4 Progenitus
4 Coalition Victory
4 Conflux

Pitcher: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Cave-in
4 Vine Dryad
4 Blazing Shoal

Free: 20
4 Maze of Ith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mental Misstep
4 Ornithoptor
4 Chancellor of the Forge

Sideboard Materials:
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of the Void
Tormod's Crypt
Surgical Extraction
Marrow Shards
Chancellor of the Dross
Summoning Trap
Mindbreak Trap
Ravenous Trap
Chalice of the Void
Mennite