Mana Acceleration

[mnellsae]

What legacy deck, if any, has the most established, reliable, consistent shell for mana acceleration? Are there any established decks that use a lot of mana accel?

If not, why aren't people trying to get bigger, costlier "bomb" cards out on the table?

Thanks.

[Happy Gilmore]

The most powerful "bombs" in legacy cost 4 mana. And if your looking for mana exceleration you should point your nose toward TES/Belcher. Big mana is irrelevant in a format were most combo decks win on turns 1-3.

[nitewolf9]

The only thing I could think of that would probably be superior to a traditional "combo" win would be in the form of devastating plays like turn 1 lotus petal, swamp, dark ritual, dark ritual, duress, spiritmonger. Something that truly degenerate should probably stay out of the format though, so please don't do this.

[Tacosnape]

What legacy deck, if any, has the most established, reliable, consistent shell for mana acceleration? Are there any established decks that use a lot of mana accel?

If not, why aren't people trying to get bigger, costlier "bomb" cards out on the table?

Thanks.

People don't accelerate into costlier bomb cards because if you've got that sort of mana acceleration, it's easier to just play a game-winning combo than run the risk of dropping a single threat that will die to Swords to Plowshares.

Established acceleration decks include The Epic Storm and Belcher.

That said, a ton of decks run -some- form of acceleration that fits in its shell.

Vial Goblins: Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, Goblin Warchief
Survival: Birds of Paradise
Sui Black: Dark Ritual
Ichorid: Lion's Eye Diamond

Many decks that don't run mana acceleration run Force of Will, which provides a similar tempo swing by being able to counter any spell for less mana than the opponent paid for it.

[Berzerked]

Decks that love getting turn1 Chalice@1 run mana accel in the form of Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, and City of Traitors. Some might even include Seething Song, mana elves, or Cloud of Faeries for even more accel.
Decks that come to mind:
Staxx
5/3
AFoWnity
Empty the Slogger
Trinity Rock
Faerie Stompy

[troopatroop]

The only thing I could think of that would probably be superior to a traditional "combo" win would be in the form of devastating plays like turn 1 lotus petal, swamp, dark ritual, dark ritual, duress, spiritmonger. Something that truly degenerate should probably stay out of the format though, so please don't do this.

That is incorrect because spiritmonger is bad. Thats a perfect 6 card hand with 2 dark rituals. Truly Degenerate? It's a 5th turn win if they cant come up with a single answer, or a chump blocker. Please.

[Lego]

That is incorrect because spiritmonger is bad. Thats a perfect 6 card hand with 2 dark rituals. Truly Degenerate? It's a 5th turn win if they cant come up with a single answer, or a chump blocker. Please.

I detected a note of sarcasm in his reply...

[Obfuscate Freely]

As mentioned, the best examples of decks in Legacy that rely on mana acceleration are the Chalice aggro decks.

Look at the mana acceleration package of Empty the Slogger:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Chrome Mox
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Note that this deck gets away with devoting so many slots to mana acceleration because most of those cards overlap in function (Tomb, City, and Mox are all starting mana sources, ie. "lands," and SSG is a makeshift threat that can carry equipment). This specific iteration of the Chalice aggro deck can even squeeze extra value out of Mox and Seething Song by pairing them with Empty the Warrens (you can topdeck a Chrome Mox and turn it into a Raise the Alarm).

This sort of deck can easily support an unusually-high mana curve. It doesn't (or can't, because of Chalice) even have to bother with 1-drops, and can count on playing 5cc threats on turn two or three a fair amount of the time. However, the ability to make such powerful plays comes at a huge cost to consistency, especially in the opening turns. This is a crucial weakness to such a tempo-oriented strategy.

This trade-off of consistency for speed can certainly be worth it, but it becomes difficult to justify when your opponents have access to cards as powerful as the ones in Legacy, without having to make the same sacrifice. Arc Slogger is an amazing guy to have on the board, but how much better is he than, say, Force of Will? How about Swords to Plowshares, or even Tarmogoyf? The point isn't that those cards answer Slogger directly, although I think that helps illustrate it. The point is that you're making all sorts of concessions just so you can play Arc Slogger, but your opponent hardly has to make any concessions at all to play Swords to Plowshares.

Why play "bombs" that require mana acceleration to be relevant, when you can play undercosted bombs with a normal mana base?

[zulander]

The most powerful "bombs" in legacy cost 4 mana. And if your looking for mana exceleration you should point your nose toward TES/Belcher. Big mana is irrelevant in a format were most combo decks win on turns 1-3.

No you're wrong actually. He gosts 1G. Don't be a n00b.

[Bovinious]

No you're wrong actually. He gosts 1G. Don't be a n00b.

Wait a sec I'm a little confused here, Ichorid doesn't cost any mana to return, and it doesn't cost anything to make Bridge from Below tokens either!

[kicks_422]

Hell, if Ichorid finds an inkling of a reason to run MD Tarmogoyfs as well, it would.

[Happy Gilmore]

Hell, if Ichorid finds an inkling of a reason to run MD Tarmogoyfs as well, it would.

Its funny cause its true. :laugh:

[Bovinious]

I hope that was a joke...I dont know why everyone is on Tarmogoyf's balls so much srsly.

[Nihil Credo]

The most insanely accelerated deck I've ever seen was the Wildfire deck from CANGD some time ago. The maindeck produces a fucking 67 permanent mana and consistently gets to Wildfire mana on turn 3. Incidentally, it is insanely fun to play.

Unfortunately, at some point in the last few months a resolved Wildfire stopped meaning "board clear", and the deck lost almost all viability. Guess why.


Wildfire: Mana + Bombs (original version)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Sandstone Needle
7x Mountain

4x Gruul Signet
4x Talisman of Impulse
4x Thran Dynamo
4x Gilded Lotus
2x Worn Powerstone

4x Trinisphere

4x Sundering Titan
4x Crater Hellion

2x Wildfire
2x Burning of Xinye
3x Decree of Annihilation
4x Burning Wish

SIDEBOARD:
4x Pyroclasm
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Decree of Annihilation
1x Burning of Xinye
1x Devastation
1x Shattering Spree
1x Hull Breach
1x Tranquility
1x Recoup

[AnwarA101]

Mana accleration is probably a at near low in Legacy because it isn't able to incorporate a particularly good strategy. Look at the decks that are doing really well. Threshold basically doesn't pay more than 2 mana for any of its spells. Breakfast can win the game with 3 mana and Aether Vial is the best acceleration that it can run. Ichorid doesn't even really use mana to win outside of LED and that's only because it makes you discard your hand (which happens to be a good thing in this case). Landstill can't afford to lose cards to speed itself up and 43land plays a mana accelerant via Manabond.

[Lego]

The most insanely accelerated deck I've ever seen was the Wildfire deck from CANGD some time ago. The maindeck produces a fucking 67 permanent mana and consistently gets to Wildfire mana on turn 3. Incidentally, it is insanely fun to play.

Unfortunately, at some point in the last few months a resolved Wildfire stopped meaning "board clear", and the deck lost almost all viability. Guess why.

At this point, if you wanted to give the deck any semblance of playability, you'd probably want to keep the same sort of insane acceleration package and play T&N instead.

[Illissius]

At this point, if you wanted to give the deck any semblance of playability, you'd probably want to keep the same sort of insane acceleration package and play T&N instead.

Or Ideal. Maybe Obliterate?

[Lego]

Or Ideal. Maybe Obliterate?

Obliterate, if you could ramp to it, would be awesome, if it didn't also take out all your mana accel at the same time. Ideal would require a whole lot fewer permanent sources, so you could play it on Turn 2, but I'm not sure it's strong enough.

[Illissius]

You can also just go for Devastation for one more mana (than Wildfire), though I'm not sure what to do with the Hellions.

[Iranon]

I really think it's unproductive to look at acceleration separately from the business; you run acceleration according to your needs.

Chalice Aggro and Stax want to have 2-3 mana on turn 1, and keep it up -> Moxen + 2-mana lands.

Ultra-fast combo wants as much mana on turn 1 as it can get -> all on-colour ritual effects and 0-cost artifact mana.

Creature decks tend to use creature mana -> Rofellos; Elves

Truly big mana (Tron and friends) tends to suck because it translates into a neglegible early game, and you just can't afford that in Legacy. Goblin Welder works for most applications, comes online more quickly and enables more tricks (not that decks relying on him are usually good either...)

[FoolofaTook]

You could even make an argument that mono-Black is better off not using Dark Rituals to accelerate at this point, instead playing relevant 1cc spells like Duress, Aether Vial and even Will O'Wisps as the opening play. There's nothing like watching a StP or Bolt land on a Wisp just before you put out Bob on turn two.

The point of not using mana acceleration being that it's easier to pack the deck with the great 2cc disruption and critters that Black offers alongside Wastelands, a few sweepers and a few big threats if you don't have to reserve space for the acceleration that can easily give your opponent a 2 for 1 and tempo very early on.

[raharu]

mana acceleration decks don't have enough room for countermagic. In short, Force of Will has killed mana acceleration.