Last and Only Tarmogoyf Thread

[APriestOfGix]

This is going to be the only thread you can talk about goyf in, stop smapping every fucking deck thread with "Goyf = god!"

What do you think of goyf? Is it great, good over hyped?

I'm going to say it's ok, but not very good.

It has been called the best critter ever, and it's WAY far from that.

All it is, is an under costed critter, nothing more. It is worse than MANY other creatures. It is just a creature that costs much less mana that it should (about half the cost as they usually are 4/5's)

Pros:
1G for a 4/5!!!

Cons:
Dies to everything!!!
No evasion
No trample
Relies on graveyard

[Eldariel]

Yea, and Ancestral isn't broken, it's just undercosted. It can also be countered. It's still nuts. What's your point? I wouldn't go as far as to say it's the best creature ever, but I do think it's the best beatdown creature ever, or at least a very close second/third. It's also crazy in the sense that it requires nothing out of the deck other than playing spells, so it's much easier to build around than the other candidates like 'Tog, 'Mongrel, Terravore and company. Further, since it feeds on both graveyards, it's much harder to hose than any of the former. So it's extremely powerful and extremely 'tossable' in the sense that you can play it almost anywhere. And one of the biggest threats to the date. Make what you will of that.

EDIT: Oh, and I'll fail to answer that poll since none of the options represent my opinion. I'd be somewhere between #1 and #2.

[APriestOfGix]

Thats diffrent, the only mesure on an instant (sorcery) is it's effect and cost. Underosted instand = broken.

undercosted power = good, but creatures need so much more. Now if akroma costed 2WW then that would be broken.

[Eldariel]

By that logic, StP would be broken too since it's an undercosted instant. I think the point you're trying to make is that Goyf is easy to answer. May be so, but that doesn't make it any worse. The 'no wrong threats'-theorem applies to Legacy quite well, force opponent to answer your guys and once he fails, he dies. 'Goyf does that better than anything else.

[FakeSpam]

Undercosted is a huge thing to consider. At 2 mana on turn 2, he's generally a 2/3. He's bigger than most 1, 2, and 3 drops. Then on turn four or five, he's a 4/5 or bigger, and still competes with creatures that cost 4 or 5 mana.

I hate to admit it, but he's the best creature.
Nothing else comes close.

[from Cairo]

I think its the best creature ever- for filling a conventional creature role of attacking and blocking. In given decks there will be creatures that synergize differently and thus fit the deck better, but cc to p/t I think Goyf beats out any other vanilla creature and has no drawback.

[nitewolf9]

So, funny story about tarmogoyf. I was playing threshold online against some reanimator deck that got out akroma on turn 3 or so through my countermagic. I had a tarmogoyf out with artifact, creature, land, instant, sorcery in the yard. He swings over with akroma and puts me to 14. He was at 12 from reanimating her. I predict counterbalance into my yard and swing back. Yes, tarmogoyf raced akroma. He had to chump block my :1: :g: vanilla beater with his 8 cc monster. AKROMA CHUMP BLOCKED TARMOGOYF. This should not happen. Tarmogoyf violates just about every rule that you can think of when it comes to casting cost for a creature. Probably not ban worthy, but definitely one of, if not the best, creatures of all time.

Edit: I'm curious as to what creatures people seem to think are better. Please name a few, I can't think of any. Except spiritmonger of course.

[Tacosnape]

Nothing is -better- than Tarmogoyf for what he does, which is crush face.

Circumstantially, creatures with other abilities can be better (Meddling Mage, Ichorid, Cephalid Illusionist, Gaddock Teeg, etc), but nothing beats face like a Tarmogoyf.

It's worth noting, however, since he's made Swords to Plowshares and Smother all the more powerful, anything immune to those two has potential for abuse in the format, including anything with shroud (Or the Troll variation thereof) or protection from white.

[Anarky87]

Tarmogoyf is one the best creatures because he literally comes with a text that says, "Answer me right now or you'll fucking lose." Seriously.

Who cares if you can answer it with an StP? or Terminate? Wrath? Deed? So can 'Tog, and people praised him up and down. 'Goyf just lets you commit an undercosted beater to the board very early and immediately put your opponent on a very short leash. There are literally no creatures (aside from Lackey) that have this aura about them. Now instead of Threshold waiting until they acquire Thresh to play beaters, can simply throw down a 3/4 or 4/5 on turn 2 with counter back up and say, "Beat that."

It changes your reactive game immediately into a proactive game. That's why 'Goyf is a winner.

[Happy Gilmore]

The most efficient creature in magic to be sure. Its difficult to say though since Cards like Wild Mongrel and Psychatog have great funtionality. I would separate best creature into three catogories (Rare, Uncommon, Common), that way it becomes obvious that he has very little competition.

[troopatroop]

I think the biggest competition is Goblin Welder, but they both do such different things. It's a tough call.

[APriestOfGix]

Akroma can chump block.

thst like saying my 2/1 shouldn't chump block your goyf... EVERY TURN! (spectral lynx)

Now, you don't see me saying lynx is the best creature ever, because it can chump block a goyf...

Goyf = good, but not the nuts.

Better creatures include


Monger
Mage
Tog
Ravager
Morphling
Welder
Squee
Piledriver

[TrialByFire]

Better Creatures:

Tog
Ravager
Welder


I fixed your list

[Atwa]

Better creatures include


Monger
Mage
Tog
Ravager
Morphling
Welder
Squee
Piledriver

Some of those creatures are better, but only in specific cases (or decks).

A Tog isn't worth a lot with 2 cards in hand and no cards in the grave. I won't ever consider playing a Ravager or Welder in a creaturespot, in a deck without a lot of artifacts, I don't even know why Squee is ever in that list, since I've never ever seen a decklist which wants to utilise Squee as a beater.

You have to remember that the prime role of creatures is to attack your opponent. Noone can arguee Squee doesn't beong in a Survival (or Reanimator) decks, but the sole reason is Squee is used as an engine in those decks, not as a 'pure' creature.

Tarmogoyf is, weater you like it or not, in the top 3 of best beatdown creauters ever, and I personally think it is the best one ever printed. I won't even think about splashing red in a control deck so I can incluse Piledriver, spahing green for Goyf is something which should always be considered (of you plan to win through creature beatdown).

$0.02

[Zach Tartell]

Better creatures include


Monger
Mage
Tog
Ravager
Morphling
Welder
Squee
Piledriver

Flame removed. - Bardo

I don't want to come off as glib, but let's examine your list:
-Mongrel: only good as a madness outlet. And my 'goyf gets bigger as you discard.
-Mage: I'll admit, Mage chanting b-wish or high tide can often be more effective at slowing down combo, but if I go "Polluted delta, go" and you're on the play, what do you mage? Dropping a goyf is an excellent play, there.
-Tog: excellent as a finisher but only a 1/2 if you have like a Force and a blue card in hand, or top deck him late-game. I'll freely admit that he's good, but he shits the bed to leyline. Goyf only shits the bed to "morning tide, let that resolve, crypt myself."
-Can't splash 3 bayous/trops/savannahs for Ravager. He's excellent when you're running all artifacts. But, for him to rock, you need to run all artifacts.
-Morphling: Costs 5, and gets shroud. The biggest he can be is the size of a normal Goyf. I'd give him a C-, if class was beating ass.
-Welder is extremely fragile. He only works after you've dumped shit into your yard, as well as having shit to weld out. He dies to a single plague, and isn't a threat by himself after a deed (with an empty hand). Same problem as tog, in that he relies on your yard.
-Squee: What? Squee, by himself, is better than a goyf? You'd try to beat with a Squee? I'll admit that he's awesome with survival, and can block a single goyf all day, but he's nowhere near the same. Like comparing apples to the Genitive case.
-Piledriver: Worst goblin there is, by himself. Forces you to overextend, then walk into wrath. Sure, he's a staple. But, when we look at him in relation to the rest of what we're playing, he's only mediocre.

[Tao]

Better Creatures:
Similar broken creatures: Dark Confidant


I fixed your list ; )

There is a reason why many UBg builds run 4 goyfs and 0 Psychatogs.

[Cabal-kun]

Akroma can chump block.

thst like saying my 2/1 shouldn't chump block your goyf... EVERY TURN! (spectral lynx)

Now, you don't see me saying lynx is the best creature ever, because it can chump block a goyf...

I fail to see how this is a concrete argument at all.

[Bardo]

Oh man, I knew I should have closed this thread when I saw it. I just knew it was going to go down in flames. But I had this faint glimmer of hope that people would keep their shit together. :( I was wrong.

Verbal warnings to LonelyBaritone and Zulander for flaming.