[Discussion] So who's your Number 1?

[Wallace]

So there has been a lot of talk lately about how good Tarmogoyf is, if Goyf is over-hyped, or if he is the real deal. Thinking back there are only a few creatures that came to mind when thinking about the best creature ever. When considering this poll I looked at the creature’s impact on all formats, not just legacy. A creature may have been a house in standard or extended, but sucked ass in legacy. I wanted to look at creatures that, if given the opportunity, have been played across the formats.

Tarmogoyf
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/FUT/en-us/Card136142.jpg
Thos is the guy that started this whole which creatures is the best discussion. In his short life Tarmogoyf has dominated the constructed format scene. This guy seems to appear in every deck from Breakfast to Vial Affinity, he makes his own decks too (TarmoSligh). The story goes that Goyf was supposed to cost 3 to cast, for some reason he is only a 2 drop. So love him of hate him Goyf is a force to be reckoned with in legacy, who knows what deck he will show up in next.
Notable appearances: Cefelid Breakfast, Threshold, GoyfSligh

Birds of Paradise:
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/2E/en-us/Card437.jpg
Need a cheap mana fixer; well do I have a deal for you! Birds have been around forever, if I had to guess I would have to say birds can be and will always be played. A single green to cast a 0/1 flyer that can produce one mana of any color, I’ll take it! B.O.P. is a staple in any deck needing more than two colors of mana and in some that need just two colors. So you can try and argue that Bird isn’t played any more or that Birds are outdated but I think they deserve a spot on this list.
Notable appearances: Too many to name.

Dark Confidant:
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/RAV/en-us/Card83771.jpg
Dark Confidant, a.k.a. Bob, is the creation of Bob Maher and has had a great run so far. From the first time I played with one at the Ravnica per-release till he was the star of Dead Guy Ale. Bob is the answer to you card drawing needs, unless you play spells that cost more than 3. The ability to draw an extra card every turn is amazing and up until Bob was printed you generally had to let you opponent draw along with you via howling mine or Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. With all of the cheap discard and removal spells that black provides Bob is a perfect fit in any black deck.
Notable appearances: Dead Guy Ale, Red Death, TES (The Epic Storm)

Psychatog:
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/OD/en-us/Card31825.jpg
Yeah TOG! Psychatog is another one of those creatures that has always been good. From its early days smashing people in limited, till now when it eats all of those cheap cantrips and swings for the W. Tog’s ability to eat you used spells and your hand is just stupid. Control decks love to just sit back and wait, this guy lets you do that with a little pay off at the end. His use may be on the decline a little but I see him being played again real soon.
Notable appearances: Threshold, Grow-a-Tog

Meddling Mage:
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/PS/en-us/Card26591.jpg
Another player created card, Chris Pikula gave us a classic side board card here. While mage see’s main board play, I believe his true role is in the board. Mage is a great answer to just about any deck and being U/W makes him the right colors too! Control decks love him for his ability to shut down other control decks or to shut down the cards other decks bring in to shut them down. Aggro decks love Meddling Mage for his ability to answer decks that Aggro would normally have problems with. So main deck or in the board Mage is a creature to be dealt with.
Notable appearances: To many to Name.

Goblin Welder:
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/GU/en-us/Card13001.jpg
These little guys were abused back in Urza Block constructed, but were overshadowed in their time in standard due to the prevalence of amazing combo decks. Once bans started to make creatures playable again, they ended up in the tinker decks of old extended (there were many more than just Teen Titans and George W. Bosh), and numerous tier 1 vintage decks like TnT, Stax, and Slaver (though only stax remains widely played today). Goblin welder would have made a much bigger splash in its day if it wasn't force to compete with Necro-Trix, Megrim-Jar, Replenish, Academy, and the numerous other combo decks of the time. {Thank You Nastynate}
Notable appearances: ?

Morphling:
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/UZ/en-us/Card5863.jpg
Though it's long since fallen out of favor, morphling was the MAN for about 5 years running. It kicked but in limited, block, standard, extended, and vintage, but I don't recall ever playing legacy back then, since old extended with duals was much more popular. The evolution of the game has passed it by, but it gets props for its longevity. {Thank You Nastynate}
Notable appearances: To many to Name.

So there it is, if I missed a dude somewhere lmk and I will throw him in. Please discuss this topic carefully; I don’t need it to get locked. I want to hear reasonable arguments on why you think one creature is the best, or better that another creature. Please don’t insult someone for picking one creature over another or if you disagree with someone on there pick then explain why you like another creature more. Be civil people, please…

[ClearSkies]

Across Formats? Than Goblin Welder is probably my number 1 choice for best creature. Either that or Darksteel Collossus off a Tinker.

Why? Because of Moxes, Bazaar of Baghdad, and the way most Vintage decks works (less creature removal), and/or Type 1 Stax can help/do ridicious stuff in Goblin Welder to lock opponents out of game very fast.

Darksteel Collossus off a Tinker means you have to have an answer NOW or you lose in TWO turns. If you have a Time Walk in your hand after casting it first turn. Then you only have ONE turn to answer it. Most Type 1 storm-combo, control, aggro/control decks all run Force of Wills.

Obviously, outside of Type 1, neither of them applies. (Tinker banned everywhere, while free Moxes and Bazaar of Baghdad are nowhere to be found outside Type 1.)

To me, I think it is unfair to compare across format. There is too much of a difference between Legacy and Vintage. There are even more difference between the Eternal Formats and Extended/Standard.

However, Tarmogoyf is the only creature card that is commonly played in every format minus Vintage. If you are ignoring Vintage, then, yea, Tarmogoyf is the "best" creature. If you include Vintage, then no. Besides, I can't think of any other creature that is IN print and have rise to nearly 40 dollars for one non-foil creature card.

[TrialByFire]

To me, I think it is unfair to compare across format. There is too much of a difference between Legacy and Vintage. There are even more difference between the Eternal Formats and Extended/Standard.

However, Tarmogoyf is the only creature card that is commonly played in every format minus Vintage. If you are ignoring Vintage, then, yea, Tarmogoyf is the "best" creature. If you include Vintage, then no. Besides, I can't think of any other creature that is IN print and have rise to nearly 40 dollars for one non-foil creature card.

Well said. I concur.

[Bardo]

Let me preemptively hop in here and remind everyone to keep the discussion on-topic and flame-free. I don't know what it is about the topic, but "best creature ever" threads seem to bring out the worst in people, invite flaming and are rarely -- if ever -- productive. Keep it civil.

[Wallace]

While I agree that it is hard to compare across formats I stated that to be the best creature, it had to be played in every format at some poit. Was welder played in standard when it was legal, or extended for thaqt matter? I know that welder is amazing in type one right now, but when he was legal was he good in standard or extended?

And thank you Bardo, I really want to get a good conversation going with this thread, had I seen that you locked the other thread, before I posted this one, I prob. would not have posted this one.

[ClearSkies]

While I agree that it is hard to compare across formats I stated that to be the best creature, it had to be played in every format at some poit. Was welder played in standard when it was legal, or extended for thaqt matter? I know that welder is amazing in type one right now, but when he was legal was he good in standard or extended?

Back when he was extended, he was competing against Oath of Druids and Tinker. Oath of Druids and Tinker are both unfair decks that does things that are too fast for other creature-based decks to handle. I think back he was standard, he was competing against Tinker type decks.

I think Trix was also one of the strongest deck during that time.

So, creature based decks aren't very good during that time.

Hopefully I got my magic history right. I don't know how many years has it been since the last time Urza's Block was Extended/Standard legal.

[Artowis]

1) Tarmogoyf
2) Goblin Welder
3) Psychatog
4) Dark Confidant

Really I could slot 2,3,4 in any order in this day and age. Although Psychatog is typically #1 or #2 I think Welder was just stronger and Bob has been played in every format to some amount of success. He may not be as abstractly strong as the other three, but he's such a ridiculously good card drawing engine in so many different decks.


While I agree that it is hard to compare across formats I stated that to be the best creature, it had to be played in every format at some poit. Was welder played in standard when it was legal, or extended for thaqt matter? I know that welder is amazing in type one right now, but when he was legal was he good in standard or extended?


Welder was mainly played in Extended Tinker decks back in the day. At PT: NO Osterberg basically blew out Nassif in the Finals of each game he won by abusing Welder with Tangle Wire or Bosh.

[FoolofaTook]

Tarmogoyf is the best creature ever printed. It's a fatty for a weenie cost that scales perfectly with the game state, being a good solid little critter in the opening hand that blocks things like Goblin Lackey w/o dying and then ramping up in power virtually with each turn until it becomes a reliable 5/6 in the early mid game.

Being green is Tarmogoyf's only drawback and because it does not cost GG to cast that drawback is very minor given the benefits it provides.

[Bovinious]

I think everyone just forgets that Worldgorger Dragon both exists and actually is a creature, because hes definitely up there. I think Tog is 1 and Goyf is 2, however.

[Wallace]

I think everyone just forgets that Worldgorger Dragon both exists and actually is a creature, because hes definitely up there. I think Tog is 1 and Goyf is 2, however.

I thought about including dragon in the poll, but due to the fact that he is Banned in Legacy and has really fallen off in Extended made me exclude him. He was not played in standard when he was legal and will not be legal in extended for much longer. The only play Dragon will be seeing is in Vintage and I don't know how much he is played in that format either.

[JACO]

1) Psychatog
2) Tarmogoyf
3) Dark Confidant
4) Goblin Lackey
5) Meddling Mage
6) Trinket Mage
7) Goblin Welder
8) Arcbound Ravager
9) Quirion Dryad
10a) Academy Rector
10b) Nimble Mongoose

[TeenieBopper]

Hands down and without a doubt, Psychatog has had the biggest effect across all formats. Tarmagoyf is the only other one that even comes close. 'tog has been in PT winning decks in all supported formats, and has been in dominating decks in T1, 1.5, and Legacy. The only thing stopping 'goyf from equaling 'tog is it's lack of affect in T1 (right? I don't follow T1, but given that it's really just a vanilla creature, I would assume it isn't played much).

[ClearSkies]

I thought about including dragon in the poll, but due to the fact that he is Banned in Legacy and has really fallen off in Extended made me exclude him. He was not played in standard when he was legal and will not be legal in extended for much longer. The only play Dragon will be seeing is in Vintage and I don't know how much he is played in that format either.

I have not seen a Worldgorger dragon deck in Top 8 at any tournament result for a long time. (I check Morphling.de frequently out of curosity) Most Top 8 results also shows that just about every deck runs 4x Leyline the Void.

Clearly, Worldgorger dragon does not see any play as a successful deck type in Vintage.

[The Rack]

I know he is brand new but I would argue that Gaddock Teeg ranks with Meddling Mage, he masn't made an impact on the formats yet but I can assure you that he will soon enough. Tarmo and Tog are easily first though. My 2 cents.

[Jaynel]

Wild Mongrel made a pretty big splash before he was outdated as green's best beater.

[The Cisco Kid]

1.) Psychatog - I still rate 'Tog on top for two reasons. First, it's the two most broken colors. Playing Tog with Gush, Fact or Fiction, Dark Confidant, Force of Will, Demonic and Vampiric Tutors, Duress, etc..., automatically makes this creature better by proxy. Second, Psychatog is the most efficient, and versatile creature in Magic. It's able to act as the sole threat in many decks, it's resilient to many forms of removal, and it can deal arbitrarily large amounts of damage. As far as I'm concerned, it's still number 1.

2.) Goblin Welder - I look occasionally at Vintage decklists, and for a while, I was always confused at seeing Lava Darts in wishboards and as singleton tutor targets. Eventually, I realized that this guy is why. Slaver lock, Stax lock, Trinisphere, Uba Mask, and assorted large creatures for zero mana investment are generally good at winning games.

3.) Hermit Druid - Like Goblin Welder, Hermit Druid allows for some of the most degenerate plays in Magic. Just think of it as Breakfast without the terrible mana base fitting white and crappy creatures.

4.) Metalworker - This guy is nuts. It takes a lot for a creature to be banned in Legacy and whether or not it's warranted, Metalworker can do very broken things. Sure, it's not an 8/9 guy, but I hear infinite mana is good anyway.

5.) Sundering Titan - I know this is a weird pick, but I don't think there's a singularly more powerful creature in the game. Not only does it have an enormous comes-into-play effect, but it's a 7/10 dude. In every color!

Honorable Mention:
Dark Confidant
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Academy Rector
Masticore
Meddling Mage

And lastly, I want to address Tarmogoyf. It's a great creature. Really. But it's a vanilla dude. It's like Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares. They're in almost every deck that can fit them, but that doesn't make them abstractly "better" than Fact or Fiction and... well... I guess Land Tax is broken in white?... anyway, it's a very efficient creature and should be considered in any deck running green. That's not "powerful." The hype is just like the hype for Dark Ritual, Ravager, and Force of Will. It appears powerful because of its context.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Peace.

[TeenieBopper]

People are getting hung up on the whole "Tarmagoyf is just a vanilla dude. He dies to terror." yeah, and 'tog does to smother. Just because a creature isn't invulnerable doesn't mean it isn't disgustingly powerful. Seriously, just look at what Tarmagoyf has done to standard, extended, and legacy. If you can't see that impact, then, well, you're dumb.

[Jak]

1.) Psychatog - I still rate 'Tog on top for two reasons. First, it's the two most broken colors. Playing Tog with Gush, Fact or Fiction, Dark Confidant, Force of Will, Demonic and Vampiric Tutors, Duress, etc..., automatically makes this creature better by proxy. Second, Psychatog is the most efficient, and versatile creature in Magic. It's able to act as the sole threat in many decks, it's resilient to many forms of removal, and it can deal arbitrarily large amounts of damage. As far as I'm concerned, it's still number 1.

2.) Goblin Welder - I look occasionally at Vintage decklists, and for a while, I was always confused at seeing Lava Darts in wishboards and as singleton tutor targets. Eventually, I realized that this guy is why. Slaver lock, Stax lock, Trinisphere, Uba Mask, and assorted large creatures for zero mana investment are generally good at winning games.

3.) Hermit Druid - Like Goblin Welder, Hermit Druid allows for some of the most degenerate plays in Magic. Just think of it as Breakfast without the terrible mana base fitting white and crappy creatures.

4.) Metalworker - This guy is nuts. It takes a lot for a creature to be banned in Legacy and whether or not it's warranted, Metalworker can do very broken things. Sure, it's not an 8/9 guy, but I hear infinite mana is good anyway.

5.) Sundering Titan - I know this is a weird pick, but I don't think there's a singularly more powerful creature in the game. Not only does it have an enormous comes-into-play effect, but it's a 7/10 dude. In every color!

Honorable Mention:
Dark Confidant
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Academy Rector
Masticore
Meddling Mage

And lastly, I want to address Tarmogoyf. It's a great creature. Really. But it's a vanilla dude. It's like Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares. They're in almost every deck that can fit them, but that doesn't make them abstractly "better" than Fact or Fiction and... well... I guess Land Tax is broken in white?... anyway, it's a very efficient creature and should be considered in any deck running green. That's not "powerful." The hype is just like the hype for Dark Ritual, Ravager, and Force of Will. It appears powerful because of its context.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Peace.

I don't want to flame, but seriously, how is Mongrel better than Goyf? "I will discard my hand to make Mongrel a 6/6 and play a few Rootwallas". Well I will keep my hand and play Goyf next turn as a 6/7. I will also use my hand to counter and destroy all your Wallas.

Tog is the same. It has a shit ton of history and is very dominate, but is only used in Vintage if it can swing for 20. I have even seen GAT lists not run him. He was good at being able to grow and attack for a ton, but why not play a slightly smaller creature and keep my hand?

I think people are underestimating this green creature. Kind of lame to read people thinking he is being overhyped and say all these creatures are far superior, but why not prove to me how Mongrel or Tog are better than Goyf by posting some lists?

[Wallace]

People are getting hung up on the whole "Tarmagoyf is just a vanilla dude. He dies to terror." yeah, and 'tog does to smother. Just because a creature isn't invulnerable doesn't mean it isn't disgustingly powerful. Seriously, just look at what Tarmagoyf has done to standard, extended, and legacy. If you can't see that impact, then, well, you're dumb.

I don't want to flame, but seriously, how is Mongrel better than Goyf? "I will discard my hand to make Mongrel a 6/6 and play a few Rootwallas". Well I will keep my hand and play Goyf next turn as a 6/7. I will also use my hand to counter and destroy all your Wallas.

Tog is the same. It has a shit ton of history and is very dominate, but is only used in Vintage if it can swing for 20. I have even seen GAT lists not run him. He was good at being able to grow and attack for a ton, but why not play a slightly smaller creature and keep my hand?

I think people are underestimating this green creature. Kind of lame to read people thinking he is being overhyped and say all these creatures are far superior, but why not prove to me how Mongrel or Tog are better than Goyf by posting some lists?

Down boys, we wanna keep this thread open. I totally agrre with you though, Goyf is just a vanilla dude, but is is a damn good vanilla dure. For :1::g: you get a creature that can be an 8/9. Goyf is also the only creature I know of that has been added to or has been talked about being added to almost every deck. This card exploded onto the scene, it went from a $4 card to a $25 card overnight. While I agree he doesn't belong in every deck, he does belong in most. To me saying that Goyf is just a vanilla creature is like saying Ron Jermey is just a porn star or that lonelybaritone is just an Enchantress Player...

[emidln]

1) Broken Combo Creatures - Goblin Welder/Worldgorder Dragon/Hermit Druid

These are the instant-win creatures. If you don't answer them immediately, you've lost the game. In my opinion, winning the game is better than simply being in a really good position ala Tog, Goyf, Meloku, Morpling, etc.

2) Arcbound Ravager

While not entirely a broken combo creature, Ravager bridges the gap between the sheer bustedness of free stuff (ala Welder/Druid/Dragon) and inevitability of Tog.

3) Psychatog

Mr. Teeth is the face of inevitability. With Tog on the board, the only question is "when?"

4) Goblin Ritual/Goblin Tutor/Goblin Fiction/Goblin Medallion (aka Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Warchief)

The synergy provided to the Goblin tribe over time is incredible. It has propelled Goblins into a top tiered deck in almost every format where they've been legal. Within their core, Goblins has mana cheating, direct tutoring, and card advantage.

Honorable Mentions:

Wild Mongrel
Disciple of the Vault
Simian Spirit Guide/Elvish Spirit Guide
Tarmogoyf
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Dark Confidant
Meddling Mage
Gaddock Teeg
Nimble Mongoose
Razormane Masticore

[troopatroop]

Wanna know how much Tarmogoyf owns our format? A year ago everyone had Goblin Lackey in their top 3. Where is he now?

[etrigan]

Wanna know how much Tarmogoyf owns our format? A year ago everyone had Goblin Lackey in their top 3. Where is he now?

Which is why these arguments, while entertaining, are utterly pointless.

Things change, metagames adapt. Juggernaut used to be the best creature printed, to the point where the DCI took action. Mahamoti Djinn was replaced by Rainbow Efreet was replaced by Morphling was replaced by Meloku as the kill card of choice in Mono-U control. Goblin Welder can be gamebreaking in a format without removal, and just another weak 1/1 in a format full of it. Lin Sivvi dominated her format for 2 years, and is now an afterthought.

Tarmogoyf is amazing. I cant disagree. But it's impossible to anoint it, or any creature, as 'best' without discussion of the metagame as well.

[Kadaj]

Number one is without a doubt Psychatog. Tog is the only creature who is played in literally every format it's legal. Not even Goyf, who sees little to no play in Vintage, can make that claim. Tog has been in dominating decks in every format with the exception of Legacy, and remains one of those cards you just don't want to see on the other side of the board.

For historical purposes, I'd say number two is Morphling. Obviously, this is going to draw a lot of ire, but at one point Morphling was more widespread than Tog and saw significant play in every format at one point or another. I am probably in the minority on this, but I do firmly believe Morphling is still a very powerful creature, despite the drawbacks that have slowly been revealed over time about this, and that coupled with his past success gets him my number two slot.

Number three is Arcbound Ravager/Disciple of the Vault. These two creatures together broke almost everything everywhere. They even made a brief run at Vintage when they were first released, and were powerful enough to warrant banning in Standard and Extended.

I have a tie for fourth with Goblin Welder and Goblin Lackey. Both are two amazing one drops, and both demand immediate answers or the game will swiftly be lost. Welder buries you under the weight of high costing artifacts that keep coming back for more, and Lackey throws SCGs and Ringleaders at your face. Both have seen extensive play in several formats, and both have at least warranted consideration for banning at one point or another.

Honorable mention to Dark Confidant, Exalted Angel, and Tarmogoyf. Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf will more than likely crack the top 5 very soon due to their meteoric rise in recent times, while Exalted Angel is heading in the opposite direction at the moment. Still, Angel was at one point played in every format and was dominating in Standard and Extended for a time. Tarmogoyf and Confidant's impact has been obvious on all formats, with the possible exception of Vintage.

[TrialByFire]

Goyf is also the only creature I know of that has been added to or has been talked about being added to almost every deck. This card exploded onto the scene, it went from a $4 card to a $25 card overnight.

This is what I think propels Tarmogoyf to #1. The fact that in every deck. You now have to actually ask yourself "Would 4 Tarmogoyfs make this deck better?" And a very large percentage of the time, the answer is "Yes." In this Extended season, every deck was either running the Goyf or playing combo. Affinity even added them to its deck. WTF?

It is the most undercosted massive beating in a nice two mana splashable awesomeness of a card that we have ever, and will ever, been able to play with.

As for the rest of the Top 5 in my mind, in no particular order:

Dark Confidant
Psychatog
Goblin Welder
Academy Rector

[freakish777]

Actually, Goblin Welder's shining moment in old Extended was playing alongside Tinker, not against it:

George W. Bosh
Rickard Osterberg, Winner — PT: New Orleans (PT Tinker)


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Brass
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Shivan Reef


1 Bosh, Iron Golem
4 Goblin Welder
1 Pentavus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Masticore
4 Metalworker


2 Chromatic Sphere
1 Citanul Flute
1 Gilded Lotus
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Mindslaver
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Tinker
3 Voltaic Key


Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
1 Elf Replica
1 Mindslaver
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Shattering Pulse
1 Triskelion
4 Welding Jar


Unfortunately Legacy (as opposed to T1.5, ie post format split) hasn't really supported Goblin Welder as playable, but he was a beast in Extended and is still played in Vintage in Stax (though I've heard Control Slaver has fallen from the competitive scene).

At the moment, Tarmogoyf is the best creature, but as pointed out by other people, it won't reign forever. Formats rotate, metagames shift and bannings occur (clearly I don't think Tarmogoyf needs one in this format, however, in Standard I could see him being the next Arcbound Ravager).

[TrialByFire]

(clearly I don't think Tarmogoyf needs one in this format, however, in Standard I could see him being the next Arcbound Ravager).

I'm almost positive that will not happen. In Mirrodin, Ravager was banned because tournaments were made up of Affinity and Anti-Affinity. And that was it. In our standard, sure everyone is playing Goyf, but everyone is playing Goyf. And there are many, many solutions to him, even by just killing him, including the about 10 cards I can think of just from Lorwyn. Im Mirrodin, you didn't even have to attack to win because Ravager was like a combo deck

[ClearSkies]

Actually, Goblin Welder's shining moment in old Extended was playing alongside Tinker, not against it:

George W. Bosh
Rickard Osterberg, Winner — PT: New Orleans (PT Tinker)


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Brass
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Shivan Reef


1 Bosh, Iron Golem
4 Goblin Welder
1 Pentavus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Masticore
4 Metalworker


2 Chromatic Sphere
1 Citanul Flute
1 Gilded Lotus
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Mindslaver
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Tinker
3 Voltaic Key


Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
1 Elf Replica
1 Mindslaver
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Shattering Pulse
1 Triskelion
4 Welding Jar


Unfortunately Legacy (as opposed to T1.5, ie post format split) hasn't really supported Goblin Welder as playable, but he was a beast in Extended and is still played in Vintage in Stax (though I've heard Control Slaver has fallen from the competitive scene).

Wow, that is one crazy Tinker list. That list is much stronger than the Tinker lists I remembered back then.

3 Cards in that list is just too powerful to see play outside Vintage.

I wonder just how fast is that deck...

[TeenieBopper]

As someone who tested that format:

It was fucking stupid. Like on the same level, if not more busted than Flash. Seriously.

[freakish777]

I'm almost positive that will not happen.

I could also see him being the next Umezawa's Jitte in Standard (good in that every green deck plays it, but not getting banned, Jitte being every aggro deck).

[DragoFireheart]

Tarmogoyf is the best beater for his investment.

There is no other creature that cost 2cc and simply grows as the game goes on. He doesn't need cards in hand or require some funky strat to use him.

Just throw him down, put some cards in the yard through natural spell casting and beat the crap out of your opponent.

He's the best at what he does, and thats being a cheap beater with little maintenance or investment. [Besides your money :laugh:]

[MattH]

Golgari Grave-Troll!

[Bardo]

Imagine if WotC printed a card that read as follows:

[This card]
Dude
1G

When [This card] comes into play roll a d6.
If you roll a 1, [This card] comes into play as a 3/4.
If you roll a 2, 3 or 4 [This card] comes into play as a 4/5.
If you roll a 5, [This card] comes into play as a 5/6.
If you roll a 6, [This card] comes into play as a 6/7.

Well, they did, more or less (not including the possibility of being a theoretical 8/9 for 2 mana). Heh.

Power/toughness-wise Tarmogoyf is off the chart. A 1G that's usually a 4/5 or 5/6: crazy.

But fuck all that. No card exists in a vacuum. Tarmogoyf can't resurrect artifacts in the graveyard or combo with Cunning Wish/Berserk to bring you from 20 to -3 in a single turn. He is arguably, pound for pound, the most efficient power/toughness : cost creature yet printed, which would make him, "Really, really good."

Like everything else "#1" is relative to other things.

[Atwa]

But fuck all that. No card exists in a vacuum. Tarmogoyf can't resurrect artifacts in the graveyard or combo with Cunning Wish/Berserk to bring you from 20 to -3 in a single turn. He is arguably, pound for pound, the most efficient power/toughness : cost creature yet printed, which would make him, "Really, really good."

Like everything else "#1" is relative to other things.

Best thing ever said in an argument about 'the best creature' or Goyf ever!

People please read and take note of this. Bardo just owned the thread (and discussion in general).

[Taurelin]

Since the question "Who's YOUR No.1?" allows rather subjective answers, I feel free to post mine.

#1 Eternal Dragon

Sure, he has no meta-defining position like Goblin Lackey and no meta-changing effect like Goofy. But I just love the card for several reasons:

1) Fixes your manabase easily
2) Feeds Lightning Rift
3) Can be recurred to thin your deck mid-game
4) Can be recurred and played as a flying 5/5 late-game
5) A staple in all white-based control decks like Wombat, Rifter, WUBS, UW-Landstill and ScepterChant.

Bonus) Beautiful artwork


Admitted, not spectacular, but just my two cents.

[spirit of the wretch]

In the current Legacy-Meta (and accoridung to PT Valencia Extendet-Meta)
Tarmogoyf > Psychatog and Ravager

The main reason therefore may be, that he's infinitly splashable and if you're deck doesn't win via combo, it will probably get better if you stick 4x Tarmogoyf in it.
Yes, he's "only" a beatdown critter, but he sure is pretty good at it. In my opinion, if you're building Legacy.dec at the moment, you don't have to ask yourself "Should I play Tarmogoyf?". The question you have to ask is "Is there a reason not to play Tarmogoyf? And if I don't, how do I beat decks that do?"
Because of the impact he has shown in almost every format in the short time he's tourney legal, I think he deserves the title Best Critter.

[ForceofWill]

If you are going to talk about magic history go look at both worlds where Tog was in t2. One year like 90% of the players at worlds were playing tog in t2.

[zulander]

1. Tarmogoyf ( he doesn't require you to go off or have a large amount of cards in your guy)

2. Tarmogoyf
3. Tarmogoyf
4. who cares, it isn't tarmogoyf.

[Nihil Credo]

My personal interpretation of "What is the best creature in Magic?" is as follows: "Take a competitive deck at random (without accounting for popularity), and replace four random spell slots with four copies of a single creature. Which creature is most likely to give you the best resulting deck?"

Under that formulation, which tries to measure creatures on sheer power as opposed to synergy (i.e. no difficult-to-exploit cards like Ravager or Lackey), and takes mana cost into account, I believe the top three slots end up being:

1) Tarmogoyf
2) Dark Confidant
3) Psychatog

[Bardo]

When it comes to talking about Tarmogoyf, the question that deck-builders should be asking is: "What do I need my cards to do?" Not, "What decks can I cram Tarmogoyf into?"

More specifically, the question around Tarmogoyf is: "Who needs a big, dumb, cheap dude who can only attack and block?"

Let's just say you play a Blue/Green/x aggro-control decks that runs not many lands, along with Daze (i.e. even less land), that also runs a lot of disruption but needs a quick clock to seal its matches? Well, Tarmogoyf might have a home there. Hello, Threshold.

As for off the chart, (power + toughness / cost), I don't know who was around back in the MtG usenet days of 1995 or so, but I was. Back then, there was a popular formula to tell how "good" a card was. This is a crude method with serious flaws, but the formula was:

Power + Power + Toughness (+ 1 for a good ability) / Casting Cost

(Basically, P + P + T + [1*x] / CC)

Using this formula:

Savannah Lions: 2 + 2 + 1 + 0 / 1 = 5. Great.

Serra Angel: 4 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 1 / 5 = 2.8. Serviceable.

(Incidentally, Serra Angel > Sengir Vampire since 2.8 > 2.6 as vigilance is actually good compared to Sengir's "blood-sucking" ability, which usually sucks.)

Juzam Djinn: 5 + 5 + 5 + 0 / 4 = 3.75. Excellent.

Hurloon Minotaur: 2 + 2 + 3 + 0 / 3 = 2.33. Garbage.

Polar Kraken: 11 + 11 + 11 + 1 - 1 / 11 = 3. The holes in the system are wide.

Let's look at a 5/6 Tarmogoyf:

5 + 5 + 6 / 2 = 8. Insane.

I've never seen it happen, since I haven't played anyone with Planeswalkers or tribal cards, but check out an 8/9 Tarmogoyf.

8 + 8 + 9 / 2 = 12.5. Obscene.

As was pointed out in the day, the formula is flawed since it doesn't take colors and colored mana-cost (1UU vs 2U) into the equation, but most importantly, it doesn't scale. Like Savannah Lions (5) is great on turn 1, but not so good on turn 10. Likewise, Serra Angel (2.8) is not a bad investment on turn 4 (off a Sol Ring) or 5, but is a blank on turns 1-3.

This was all a fun trip down memory lane, as it's a pretty useless exercise. The point I'm really making here goes pack to the beginning of this post: What do you need your cards to do? This is why Psychatog, Wild Mongrel, Arcbound Ravager, Goblin Welder, and yes, Tarmogoyf, are among the best creatures in the game. Because they advance particular strategies. You can't evaluate anything in a vacuum.

[DragoFireheart]

The best way to look at these creatures is not in a stand-alone card comparison but how well they can function in the deck that uses them to the greatest potential.

This isn't Ravager vs Goyf but Affinty vs Thresh for example.

Your creatures are only as good as the deck that supports them.

Basically what Bardo said. Can't judge them in a vacuum.

[APriestOfGix]

Hands down and without a doubt, Psychatog has had the biggest effect across all formats. Tarmagoyf is the only other one that even comes close. 'tog has been in PT winning decks in all supported formats, and has been in dominating decks in T1, 1.5, and Legacy. The only thing stopping 'goyf from equaling 'tog is it's lack of affect in T1 (right? I don't follow T1, but given that it's really just a vanilla creature, I would assume it isn't played much).

Goblin Welder was the nuts. He was hevely played in EVERY format back when he was legal. He Thrashed Block, was good in T2 (as god as a creature can be during combo winter) Gave Extended Teen Titans, Nothing needs to be said about his impact on Vintage, and was a house in Legacy a while ago untill the split.

Tog is the same way.

Goyf every where but Vintage.

Confidant hit everywhere, but wasn't the end all.

So...


1) Goblin welder
2) Tog
3) Goyf
4) Bob

[APriestOfGix]

The best way to look at these creatures is not in a stand-alone card comparison but how well they can function in the deck that uses them to the greatest potential.

This isn't Ravager vs Goyf but Affinty vs Thresh for example.

Your creatures are only as good as the deck that supports them.

Basically what Bardo said. Can't judge them in a vacuum.

Very true, otherwise Sprite Monger is the best card ever! and just for fun...

6 + 6 + 6 + 3 / 5 = 4.2

Yet Monger never made it in any rally powerful deck. The Rock kinda made a splash in Extended, and Dump Truck in Standard, but nowhere near the impact Tog/Welder/Goyf have made.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Protean Hulk?

[Afro]

Sedge Troll. With a single swamp in play it trades with mongoose and lives and chumps the goyf ALL day.

[clavio]

Protean Hulk?

Im pretty sure this is the best creature. Why aren't more people talking about Dragon? That was pretty dominant when I first started playing.

[AngryTroll]

Worldgorger Dragon and Protean Hulk are like Mistform Ultimus (before Changeling): The * that you have to include but no one really counts.

They're not really creatures so much as half of a combo that works at sorcery or instant speed.

Eternal Dragon: (5+5+5+2) / 7 = 2.43

Wild Mongrel: 2+2+2+(2 or 3) / 2 = 4 or 4.5

Lord of Atlantis: (2+2+2+2)/2 = 4

Ornithopter: uh-oh

How would you do Exalted Angel? 4+4+5+(1 or 2?) / ?

[Wallace]

Sea drake was another creature I was thinking about including. If it wern't for the fact that portal was not legal for most of its life, Drake may have been a bigger monster than he is now!

btw: 4 + 4 + 3 + 1 /3 =4

[Zork]

Chub Toad Chub Toad at the door,
Run away quick or you'll run no more!

But seriously, Ernham Djinn because I loved ErnieGeddon.

[Zach Tartell]

What's that math that you're doing? I'm not familiar with it.

[Lego]

Off-Topic: goyf is no where NEAR Monger, or even tog. It is WAY worse, WAY WAY WAY worse, don't even TRY and compair it. All it is is a strong creature for little mana, not making it even CLOSE to the best creature ever. No where CLOSE.


1) Goblin welder
2) Tog
3) Goyf
4) Bob

It's nowhere CLOSE to the best creature ever! It's THIRD! Jeez.



What's that math that you're doing? I'm not familiar with it.


As for off the chart, (power + toughness / cost), I don't know who was around back in the MtG usenet days of 1995 or so, but I was. Back then, there was a popular formula to tell how "good" a card was. This is a crude method with serious flaws, but the formula was:

Power + Power + Toughness (+ 1 for a good ability) / Casting Cost

(Basically, P + P + T + [1*x] / CC)

Using this formula:

Savannah Lions: 2 + 2 + 1 + 0 / 1 = 5. Great.

Serra Angel: 4 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 1 / 5 = 2.8. Serviceable.

etc. etc. etc.

So check out how the formula works...

Arcbound Ravager in a deck with artifacts: 0 + 0 + 0 + 2 / 2 = 1. Terrible.
Arcbound Ravager with no other artifacts: 0 + 0 + 0 + 1 / 2 = 0.5. Worst ever. He's as bad as Scornful Egotist (Also a .5)

[Barook]

Arcbound Ravager in a deck with artifacts: 0 + 0 + 0 + 2 / 2 = 1. Terrible.
Arcbound Ravager with no other artifacts: 0 + 0 + 0 + 1 / 2 = 0.5. Worst ever. He's as bad as Scornful Egotist (Also a .5)

Ravager is actually a 1/1, not a 0/0. Just saying.

However, this math is stupid. E.g. Dreadnought:

12 + 12 + 12 + 0 / 1 = 36

According to this, Dreadnought is so broken, it can tear the fabric of reality apart.

[Lego]

Ravager is actually a 1/1, not a 0/0. Just saying.

However, this math is stupid. E.g. Dreadnought:

12 + 12 + 12 + 0 / 1 = 36

According to this, Dreadnought is so broken, it can tear the fabric of reality apart.

I was going to post the same thing, but I had already edited my post like 5 times.

I don't think Ravager gets to count his 1/1 and his modular, but even if you do the best you can, he's at best a 3, which makes him barely better than half as good as Savannah Lions.

Which creature has the worst number? Is it Scornful Egotist? Wait, Cait_Sith just pointed out Broodstar, who is:

0 + 0 + 0 + 3 / 10 = .3... do we have a winner?

How do you do it for Kobolds, Ornithopter, or Shield Sphere? :)

Also, how do you take into account an extra card needed? (B.F.M.)

[TrialByFire]

How do you do it for Kobolds, Ornithopter, or Shield Sphere? :)

You can't divide by zero, the universe will end :wink:

[The Rack]

You can't divide by zero, the universe will end :wink:

Either that or we'll have another boring as hell crazy math.

Top 5
1.Tog
2.Goyf
3.Bob
4.Mage
5.Teeg

[Bovinious]

You can't divide by zero, the universe will end :wink:

ZERO, ITS A DANGEROUS IDEA!!!

[Wallace]

Ravager is actually a 1/1, not a 0/0. Just saying.

However, this math is stupid. E.g. Dreadnought:

12 + 12 + 12 + 0 / 1 = 36

According to this, Dreadnought is so broken, it can tear the fabric of reality apart.

I was going to post the same thing, but I had already edited my post like 5 times.

I don't think Ravager gets to count his 1/1 and his modular, but even if you do the best you can, he's at best a 3, which makes him barely better than half as good as Savannah Lions.

Which creature has the worst number? Is it Scornful Egotist? Wait, Cait_Sith just pointed out Broodstar, who is:

0 + 0 + 0 + 3 / 10 = .3... do we have a winner?

How do you do it for Kobolds, Ornithopter, or Shield Sphere? :)

Also, how do you take into account an extra card needed? (B.F.M.)

You can't divide by zero, the universe will end :wink:

ZERO, ITS A DANGEROUS IDEA!!!

Please stay on topic people! This thread has lasted longer than I expected, lets keep it alive!!

[Barook]

The math itself is stupid because you play creatures which have

a) a cost-efficient body
b) utility factor
c) both

However, this kind of math can't calculate the utility correct because the abilities have different levels of usefulness. Plus, e.g. a BoP serves a completely different purpose than a Savannah Lion.
The only thing it could do is comparing vanilla creatures - but at that point, do you really need to calculate things to rate the cards? :confused:

[mikekelley]

Number one is without a doubt Psychatog. Tog is the only creature who is played in literally every format it's legal. Not even Goyf, who sees little to no play in Vintage, can make that claim. Tog has been in dominating decks in every format with the exception of Legacy, and remains one of those cards you just don't want to see on the other side of the board.

For historical purposes, I'd say number two is Morphling. Obviously, this is going to draw a lot of ire, but at one point Morphling was more widespread than Tog and saw significant play in every format at one point or another. I am probably in the minority on this, but I do firmly believe Morphling is still a very powerful creature, despite the drawbacks that have slowly been revealed over time about this, and that coupled with his past success gets him my number two slot.


Honorable mention to Dark Confidant, Exalted Angel, and Tarmogoyf. Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf will more than likely crack the top 5 very soon due to their meteoric rise in recent times, while Exalted Angel is heading in the opposite direction at the moment. Still, Angel was at one point played in every format and was dominating in Standard and Extended for a time. Tarmogoyf and Confidant's impact has been obvious on all formats, with the possible exception of Vintage.

I wholeheartedly agree with this post. I think people are overlooking Morphling. Seriously, he was in every deck that could pack it, just like Goyf. Like Tog, the reminder text should read "Answer this or lose."

[FoolofaTook]

Sedge Troll. With a single swamp in play it trades with mongoose and lives and chumps the goyf ALL day.

Sedge Troll wasn't even a great critter in the old single format that existed in the mid to late 90's. I had two of them in many of my decks but they were the slow critters that followed the real game-winners after the early removal flurry.

On Bardo's note:

One of the nice things about Legacy is that creatures are very relevant to the format.

I would not have picked Magic back up after an eight year absence from the game If I tuned back into a creatureless combo environment. I have not had, at any point since I tuned back in, the old feeling that dominated Magic in the late 90's, which was that creatures were an inherently weak feature of the metagame and on the way out.

All of that said, Tarmogoyf is the one creature that I have ever seen in any format that I played in that I immediately thought should be banned. Any creature that creates a slope in the playing field such that you are at a disadvantage if you do not find a way to fit that creature into your deck needs to be banned.

[nastynate]

I'm really not sure where I'd rank creatures if you have to take into account every format, historical impact, and synergy with decks built to abuse them. I'll take a shot in the dark though. I won't even attempt to analyze creatures used purely for combo purposes (like protean hulk and worldgorger dragon).

1. Psychatog: Mr. Teeth has been dominant in standard, extended, legacy and vintage at one point or another, but I can't recall it ever completely taking over block constructed or limited. Still no other creature did (and still can) end the game so effectively.

2. Goblin Welder: These little guys were abused back in Urza Block constructed, but were overshadowed in their time in standard due to the prevalence of amazing combo decks. Once bans started to make creatures playable again, they ended up in the tinker decks of old extended (there were many more than just Teen Titans and George W. Bosh), and numerous tier 1 vintage decks like TnT, Stax, and Slaver (though only stax remains widely played today). Goblin welder would have made a much bigger splash in its day if it wasn't force to compete with Necro-Trix, Megrim-Jar, Replenish, Academy, and the numerous other combo decks of the time.

3. Hermit Druid: This guy is practically a combo deck unto himself, and unlike worldgorger dragon and protean hulk, you actually had to cast him and use his ability, so I put him on my list.

4. Disciple + Ravager: On their own they are pretty good, but together they completely warped every format they touched but legacy and vintage (which had the card pool and mana acceleration to properly hate them out).

5: Tarmogoyf: He'll never have a significant role in modern vintage because pure beaters are simply a liability; in vintage every creature serves as a form of disruption (gorilla shaman, aven mindcensor, magus of the moon), a combo enabler (trinket mage, dark confidant, goblin welder), or a 1-2 turn finisher (darksteel colossus, phyrexian dreadnought, tog). In all other formats (where the attack step is key to winning, and not just an afterthought) Goyf is as good as it gets. The best mana-cost-to-power creature ever printed without dedicated support cards (like stifle-dreadnought).

6. Wild Mongrel: These fellas were critical components of winning block, standard, extended, legacy, and vintage decks at one point or another. Without a supporting cast of madness and flashback cards however, they aren't all that impressive.

7. Morphling: Though it's long since fallen out of favor, morphling was the MAN for about 5 years running. It kicked but in limited, block, standard, extended, and vintage, but I don't recall ever playing legacy back then, since old extended with duals was much more popular. The evolution of the game has passed it by, but it gets props for its longevity.

8. Goblin Lackey: Yikes this guy was nasty! His influence on the game didn't fully rear its ugly head until the printing of onslaught, but he made his mark, and remains one of the deadliest 1 drops ever printed.

9. Masticore: Though overshadowed by morphling, masticore was pretty mean in it's own right. Possibly the best limited card ever printed, and no slouch in constructed formats either (seeing play in block, standard, extended, and vintage) masticore was a force to be reckoned with, though it no longer has the raw power it once did.

10. ???

[Bardo]

Please stay on topic people! This thread has lasted longer than I expected, lets keep it alive!!

I'm sorry about that whole math diversion thing I started above, but yeah, let's stay on topic here.

[Citrus-God]

1. Darksteel Colossus: Can be used in the classic forms of The Game, or just a Tinker target in Vintage for a 2 Turn clock. This card is currently being used in T1's current DTB, ICBM Empty Gifts.

2. Tarmogoyf: It's getting used more and more. Unlike Dr. Teeth, Goyf can be used in just about any deck sporting Green, whether as a maindecked beater or a man plan out of the board.
Goyf is also seeing some play in Vintage as extra men out of the Board for GAT. Also in development, a friend of mine is building Cron Staxless Stax with Goyfs being the nut-high.

3. Nantuko Monastery: This counts, right? If so, then I would like to say an uncounterable 4/4 first striker is just nuts! Landstill, 43 Land, and all of that good stuff uses him. Back in the era of Bears, Threshold used Monasteries.

4. Dark Confidant: Just good card draw. I cant say much more than that. Most definitely better than Finkel.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I think it's telling that the only creatures really competing with Tarmogoyf are ones that have been around for years, and thus had enough time to show up in every format. Tarmogoyf has been legal for less than six months.

For example, Psychatog has been mentioned more than any other card in this thread, mostly because it has been in so many Tier 1 decks across formats. However, it wasn't until well after 'tog tore up Standard and Extended that he showed up in Type 1, and the card has yet to really leave a mark in Legacy.

Tarmogoyf is already ubiquitous in Block, Standard, Extended, and Legacy, and I think it will show itself in Vintage in due time.

[Machinus]

Darksteel Colossus had a huge impact on Vintage. I gotta say it's under-represented in this thread.

[APriestOfGix]

It's nowhere CLOSE to the best creature ever! It's THIRD! Jeez.

This was a diffrent topic. This was over formats, that was just in legacy!

[kirdape3]

In terms of overall playability, Colossus only saw play in Vintage as one of a handful of targets for a giant mana cheat. Compared to Psychatog, who saw play all across every format (except Legacy), Colossus is merely a footnote to history.

[freakish777]

How do you do it for Kobolds, Ornithopter, or Shield Sphere? :)

Division by zero -> Infinite value. Clearly Ornithopter et al are the most spectacular creatures ever printed!

As for the validity of X/0 = inf, where X > 0 and is real, take X/Y and start Y at 1, and start decreasing your value of Y until you get close to zero. For those wanting to be math lawyers, you can replace the words "X/Y tends to infinite as Y approachs zero" if you like, but I'm going to go ahead and make the assumption that division by zero of a positive number results in an infinite value.


EDIT:

Nantuko Shade was fairly beastly. I know it saw heavy play in Block and in Standard, had some impact on Extended and Legacy, and was even mentioned back when Vintage was just starting to become more popular with the 5 proxy tournaments as a card to play in bad budget suicide decks. It's no Tog/Welder/Protean Hulk/WGD/Bob/GGT/Goyf, but it's still a solid creature, and along side Hypnotic Specter is probably one of my favorite creatures.

[Illissius]

Are we discussing historical impact, power level, or what? Putting Tog ahead of Goyf is pretty stupid if it's the latter, given that Tog decks in Extended added another color just so they could switch to Goyf instead.