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Barook
10-28-2007, 08:11 AM
A few day ago I saw this (http://www.londes.com/index.php?id=1255) deck and I think it could be fun. Obviously, it will need some changes to make it work in Legacy. I thought about something like this:

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Sky Hussar
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder

4 Tooth and Nail
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Reap and Sow
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Boseiju
2 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

I replaced the Moment's Peace (which feels kinda weak in Legacy) with additional discard, cut (the unneeded) red splash to get a more stable manabase vs. Wasteland and replaced Wall of Roots with Tarmogoyf. Sure, it's debateable because WoR provides the deck with extra mana, but with the decline of Goblins, Goyf seems to be the better choice as an alternative plan, especially when combined with discard or post-Deed.

I'm also thinking about the inclusion of Exploration to speed up the deck. It seems slow in its current form.

Any thoughts?

Eldariel
10-28-2007, 08:27 AM
I'd definitely go with Pestermite over Sky Hussar now that Lorwyn is legal. Other than that, I wonder if Crop Rotation might be good here over Reap and Sow or something since it clearly wants to pump lots of mana through Coffers/Urborg and Rotation allows you to counteract Wastelands to a degree. I think the mana needs to be tested without the Wall. Also, I'd add few more Witnesses over...well, Reap and Sow first and foremost, I suppose. Witness just looks like something the deck really needs. Might also be, you'd want an additional Duress over Trike. Legacy-combo is rather fast so I think the additional discard-spell could help out more than something you mostly fetch off Tooth only.

It might be hard to reach 7GG in a format with Wasteland though, especially when your plan is two different non-basics working together. Easier than Urzatron, but still tough to pull off. I think you may need a few more copies of Coffers in the deck to consistently keep one in play. That again just requires testing the mana though.

diffy
10-28-2007, 08:49 AM
Any thoughts?


The deck looks solid, although I don't have a clue if it will work in Legacy (seems too slow at first sight).
I have a few suggestions/questions though:

- Do you really need Triskelion? How often will you Tooth and Nail for him if you could just win the game now (Kiki-Hussar) or next turn (Titan-Witness)? i don't see the ability to oing for 3 relevant enough to warrant his inclusion.

- Are the Reap and Saw really needed? They seem clunky at least and it isn't like you're able to just tutor up your last piece of tron and win next turn... I think you could replace them with something more usefull as you already have Sylvan Scrying to fetch Boseiju/Coffers.
Some possible replacements: Birds of Paradise (http://magiccards.info/al/en/95.html), Crop Rotation (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/98.html), Nature's Lore (http://magiccards.info/po/en/104.html), Kodama's Reach (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/225.html), Krosan Tusker (http://magiccards.info/on/en/272.html), Solemn Simulacrum (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/245.html) or you could just plain and simply replace them with more disruption/tutoring.

- I think you need more shuffle effects to make Sensei's Divining Top really effective. An easy way to achieve this would be to replace some lands with fetchies. Also, 4 SdTs seem like overkill as you never really want to see 2. I suppose it's main purpose is to find Tooth and Nail or Deed depending on the situation, so you could replace one with a tutor like Grim Tutor (http://magiccards.info/st/en/79.html) which would server the same purpose and set you up for a win/board clearing next turn.

Overall, these are the changes I'd recomend:

-1 Triskelion
-2 Reap and Saw
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-3 Forest
-1 Swamp
-1 Wooded Foothills
-1 Bloodstained Mire

+2 Polluted Delta
+3 Windsepth Heath
+1 Wooded Foothills
+2 Grim Tutor
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Damnation (to clear boar after tutor on t3)

This would lead to a list which might look similar to something like this:

Edit: List might be off as I changed it according to the input in the thread



Maindeck (60 cards)

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/175.html)
1 Pestermite (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/78.html)
1 Sundering Titan (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/146.html)
1 Eternal Witness (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/86.html)
2 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)

4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/239.html)
1 Crop Rotation (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/98.html)
4 Sylvan Scrying (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/130.html)

3 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)
3 Grim Tutor (http://magiccards.info/st/en/79.html)
4 Tooth and Nail (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/134.html)

1 Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html)
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
2 Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)
1 The Abyss (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/34.html)

4 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html)

1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/273.html)
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/165.html)
2 Cabal Coffers (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/139.html)
4 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/al/en/278.html)
1 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/al/en/293.html)
2 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/1.html)
3 Swamp (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/5.html)
2 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)
3 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
1 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/on/en/313.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)

Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Leyline of the Void (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/52.html)
3 Duress
(http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)4 Chalice of the Void (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/150.html)


This deck reminds me a lot of the Gifts'n Nail deck I played in extendet casually for some time just that it lacks the tutor power of Gifts Ungiven, this is what I tried to minimize by the inclusion of Grim Tutor.
If you have any questions, just ask.

Edit: Eldariel posted while I was typing, reflected the Hussar/Pestermite change in the decklist.
Edit: Note taken of Illissius's comment on Silver Bullet lands in the main, reflected the change in the maindeck
Edit: Changed the decklist to a more controlish build... less Tarmogoyfs, more control

DieMyDarling
10-28-2007, 10:26 AM
Why would you go Perstermite over Hussar in this deck? I mean u will anyway just cast it with the tooth. And then opponent says Plaque on Fearies :)

diffy
10-28-2007, 10:44 AM
Why would you go Perstermite over Hussar in this deck? I mean u will anyway just cast it with the tooth. And then opponent says Plaque on Fearies :)


Well, you can hardcast the Pestermite if you just splash a single Tropical Island or Underground Sea which you can't do with the Sky Hussar. Also, you'll always be happy if your opponent plays an Engineered Plague naming Faeries because then he's just wasted a card an probably misboarded a grant total of 4 cards... and you just Tooth and Nail for Sundering Titan and Eternal Witness (to get 2 Tarmogoyfs next turn).

Illissius
10-28-2007, 12:42 PM
Wouldn't Living Wish be way better than Sylvan Scrying here? This also applies to the Extended version, so maybe I'm missing something. Is the shuffle effect that important?

diffy
10-28-2007, 12:48 PM
Wouldn't Living Wish be way better than Sylvan Scrying here? This also applies to the Extended version, so maybe I'm missing something. Is the shuffle effect that important?


Why would you want to clog up your sideboard with a wishboard of at least 6 slots (Boseiju, Urborg, Cabal Coffers, Virdian Shaman, Shriekmaw, Mesmeric Fiend)? It's not really that bad to draw more than one Sylvan Scrying as the first two always get the two Cabal Coffers... subsequent ones also have targets such as Urborg or Boseiju, depending on the situation.
I wouldn't want to spend sideboard space on a Wishboard just for the random utility you're more likely not to use anyways as the lands are more important than the possiblity to randomly grab a solution to your opponents threats (Virdian Shaman, Bone Shredder, Mesmeric Fiend) at least in my oppinion.

So in conclusion you can say that Living Wish isn't that tech because you nearly always want to grab a fast mana land anyways.

Illissius
10-28-2007, 01:12 PM
You can also get Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Dust Bowl, Volrath's Stronghold, Gigapede, Grave-Shell Scarab, Genesis, Eternal Witness, Sundering Titan, Masticore, Visara, Dark Confidant, Withered Wretch, Nantuko Shade, Helldozer, and so on. Though all of this basically boils down to fetching either a land you need, or a bomb to slap your opponent around with if you have a ton of mana already but nothing to spend it on, which is more versatile than Scrying. Even if you use Scrying, I'd try some of those lands in the main, whether just as bullets or more -- Maze of Ith and Dust Bowl in particular seem to have a ton of synergy with the deck. Maze with Deed, Urborg, and all the Scryings (have you ever tried to break through multiple Mazes while your opponent keeps throwing Deeds out? It's not fun. Add The Abyss for extra joy!), and Dust Bowl is just a great way to push your huge mana advantage.

Jaynel
10-28-2007, 01:32 PM
Is Tarmogoyf really necessary? Would more sweepers be better? I can see Damnation and Mutilate as pretty solid options.

diffy
10-28-2007, 01:59 PM
Is Tarmogoyf really necessary? Would more sweepers be better? I can see Damnation and Mutilate as pretty solid options.


I think there are two ways you can build this deck, either hardcore control with a 1card-combo finish via Tooth and Nail or like a deck that tries to assemble a lot of mana and then finish the opponent off with some of the most ridiculous spells ever, well Tarmogoyf fits in that spot.



You can also get...


I agree with the use of some silver bullet lands in the main (reflected change in decklist above) but I still don't like to tear the entire sideboard appart to gain flexibility, maybe that's just me.

Also, if you add more and more control elements, you should really reconsider Tarmogoyf as, even with all his awesomness, he just isn't synergetic with board clearers. Probably you shouldn't cut all of them (you can always fetch them with Tooth and Nail 0o) but some could make way for some more control elements.
Maybe one could try going
-2 Tarmogoyf
+1 The Abyss
+1 Grim Tutor
or the like. I really like Grim Tutor in this deck as it acts as everything you'd always wanted... either it gets you your win in the lategame or it gets you to the lategame by tutoring up a control element.

Edit:

As I didn't have anything better to do, I actually threw this together and playtested a few games on MWS... and I actually had the luck to face real decks like NQGr, NQGw and RG beatz (the lesser), and this pile actually won games.
One thing I noticed during testing though was that this deck drops way too low on life all by itself, so I decided to cut the Thoughtseizes in favour of more removal and Eternal Witnesses.
Also, I saw that Sylvan Scrying is mvp in this deck... the shuffle effect is really nice and the ability to randomly grab a land that stops a goyf or a 'combo' piece is what makes this deck function. The problem is though that the Pestermite/Kiki Combo is easily disrupted, so I always went for the Witness-> Titan plan which makes me question the inclusion of the above mentioned combo in first place... you could just run more Sundering Titans which are actually awesome if you happen to draw them.

This is the list I'd recomend as starting point for further debate:



//Mainboard (60 cards)

// Lands
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/273.html)
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/165.html)
2 Cabal Coffers (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/139.html)
1 Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html)
1 Deserted Temple (http://magiccards.info/od/en/320.html)

4 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/al/en/278.html)
4 Swamp (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/5.html)
3 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/1.html)

2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
1 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/on/en/313.html)
2 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
1 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)

// Creatures
3 Eternal Witness (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/86.html)
3 Sundering Titan (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/146.html)
2 Krosan Tusker (http://magiccards.info/on/en/272.html)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/239.html)

// Spells
4 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
4 Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)
2 The Abyss (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/34.html)

3 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)
1 Crop Rotation (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/98.html)
4 Sylvan Scrying (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/130.html)
3 Grim Tutor (http://magiccards.info/st/en/79.html)
3 Tooth and Nail (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/134.html)

// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Chalice of the Void (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/150.html)
3 Duress (http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Leyline of the Void (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/52.html)


But really, this deck will never be a contender... You can always play it for fun but no more.

Another Edit:

During testing I found that in contrast to the 8 mana of Sundering Titan, the 9 mana for Tooth and Nail are very hard to cast... I won more games by simply playing the Titan directly rather than Tooth and Nailing for a pair. Also, you never want to see more than 1 Tooth and Nail so I cut one. Changes reflected in the decklist.