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Peter_Rotten
10-28-2007, 02:45 PM
Goyf Sligh (RG Beats)

Introduction

What is Goyf Sligh? Goyf Sligh is a traditional RG beats deck – little men and burn. The deck aims to play a critter on turn 1 and possibly turn 2, sneak in some combat damage, and then finish with burn spells to the dome. What has renewed this tired deck is the printing of the best “little” man ever – Tarmogoyf. For a measly :1::g:, you get a great Power to CC ratio critter. Two or three unblocked swings from Goyf + a few burn spells is often enough to beat many opponents. Plus, Goyf gives the deck what it sorely lacked – a late game finisher.

Goyf Sligh is a good deck but not a great deck. It is easy to play but also easy to hate. Now I’m not talking about “Affinity easy to hate,” but if you play Goyf Sligh, you must accept a few unfortunate realities. There exists plenty of relevant cards that big-job this deck. Silver Knights carrying Jittes? CounterTop? Chalice for 1? Fast combo?

Playing the deck is rather straight forward and great for rusty players like me. Simply cast your critters first, clear out any blockers, and then when your critters are outclassed, toss burn at the opponents head. Simple and effective.

Feel free to read the original Dryad Sligh Thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5166&highlight=sligh). It has an excellent opening post and is even more detailed than this one. For example, it has a quick but worthwhile guide to play strategy:

“-It’s better to start off with a creature rather than burn, except when your opponent’s on the play and casts a Lackey. More on this later.
-Maximize your mana. Take advantage of the fact that the deck’s curve is pretty low.
-Don’t be afraid to block! Yes, this is an aggro deck, but when you’re forced to block (which is usually in the late game), don’t panic. You have burn for reach anyway.
-Aiming your 3 damage spells at X/1’s if you have to clear the way is not wastage. Especially not when you absolutely have to kill the creature (Confidant, Mother of Runes, etc.)
-Sacrificing lands for Fireblast in response to LD is sometimes the btter play, even when it leaves you with one land. Better than nothing, plus it feeds your Lavamancer.”

Lists

My List (Heavily based off of Dean Bilz’s T8 list ( http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=168279&postcount=282))

Creatures (16)
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

Spells (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Dart
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
3 Seal of Fire
2 Incinerate
2 Price of Progress

Lands (18)
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothill
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
7 Mountain

A Japanese List:

Creatures (19)
4Mogg Fanatic
4Kird Ape
3Grim Lavamancer
4Tarmogoyf
4Quirion Dryad

Spells (22)
4Lightning Bolt
4Chain Lightning
3Reckless Charge
3Lava Dart
4Fireblast
4Seal of Fire

Lands (19)
7Mountain
1Forest
4Taiga
4Wooded Foothills
3Bloodstained Mire

A German List:

Creatures (20):
1Magus of the Moon
4Tarmogoyf
4Mogg Fanatic
4Kird Ape
3Grim Lavamancer
2Skyshroud Elite
2Tin Street Hooligan

Spells (22):
4Magma Jet
3Price of Progress
4Fireblast
4Lightning Bolt
1Chain Lightning
3Rancor
2Blood Moon
1Pithing Needle

Lands (18):
3Bloodstained Mire
4Wooded Foothills
1Volcanic Island
4Taiga
4Mountain
2Forest

The Basics – Mandatory Cards

Mandatory Critters (12)
4 Goyf – The best beater in the game. See the Introduction if you need an explanation as to why you should play him.
4 Fanatic – He is the little man that helps improve your odds of removing those Bridge from Below :wink:. And BTW, he kills so many utility critters – Confidants, BoPs, and Elves – and trades with 2 toughness. Plus he helps kill opposing Goyfs in a Goyf-standoff.
4 Grim– Another little man that helps kill opposing Goyfs in a Goyf-standoff. Also, you can use this guy to manipulate the size of the Goyfs. Grim’s job is to deal 4+ damage to the opponent and/or keep chump blockers off the table.

Mandatory Burn (11)
4 Lightning Bolt – It’s the best burn spell ever. Three damage, instant speed, 1cc.
4 Chain Lightning – It’s arguably the 2nd best burn spell ever.
3 Fireblast – This is your brutal finisher that keeps most opponents quaking in their boots. Even though we love a “free” 4 damage spell, I don’t recommend running more than three. It will be too tough to support four copies.

Mandatory Lands (18-20)
1 Forest – This is necessary for avoiding Wasteland and having dead Goys in hand. If you are running more than 4 Green spells, I would not run the deck without the single forest. If your only Green spells are Goyfs, then you can consider dropping this for a basic Mountain.
4 Taiga –Wasteland is still popular enough that you should play these carefully and only when necessary. If it does get targeted by Wasteland, consider sacking it to a Lava Dart or Fireblast.
4 Wooded Foothill – obviously
2-4 Bloodstained Mire – I personally feel that 6 sac lands may be enough, but you may wish to run 8.
X – Mountains
0-2 – Barbarian Ring – I don’t advise playing the Ring since you can’t sac it to Fireblast (or Dart) and you already have one non-Mountain land. Plus, damage from sac lands and the Ring may simply be too much to handle.

The Core Deck:

Creatures (16 or more)
4 Goyf
4 Fanatic
4 Grim
4 (Meta/personal choice)

Burn Spells (20 or more)
4 Lighnting Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
9 or more various Burn spells.

Lands 18-20
4 Taiga
4 Foothill
2-4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
X Mountains

The “Advanced” Choices– Choose cards from these possible cards and metagame calls

Possible Critters (4-8)
This deck wants critters that are cheap, efficient, and full of "face-beatings." I currently see no critter that costs 3 that could fit in this deck.

Quirion Dryad – I recommend running this guy although many do not. He often swings for 3 or 4 on turn 3 and has the possibility of getting bigger than many of the critters on the board. He is a nice target for your opponent’s removal – leaving your Goys unmolested. If given the choice between playing him or Goyf on turn 2, 9/10 times you want to play him. Lastly, if you decide to run Dryad, I recommend running Lava Dart for its ability to “double pump” your Dryad.
Kird Ape – Ape has fallen out of favor with me. He will never be more than a 2/3 and has no special abilities. However, some people run him for the ability to swing on turn 2 for 2. Is that turn 2 swing so valuable that we can run a now sub-par critter? I think not. If you are running him, consider switching to the creature heavy versions that play Rancor and/or Reckless Charge Skyshroud Elite - See above since this little man is essential a Kird Ape.


Possible Burn (13-15)
Not only do you want your burn to be cheap, you want it to be flexible. It will not only be tossed at the opponent's grill, but it will also be used to clear out blockers. With the exception of Price of Progress, the burn must be able to target both players and creatures.

Incinerate – Simple burn, fairly costed. And on a rare occasion you get to remind your opponent that he cannot regenerate his critter :wink:.
Magma Jet – I recommend running this card as a four of. Even though its burn to mana ratio is far from hot, this deck needs any sort of library manipulation it can get. Scry away those late game lands and critters and try to find the finishing burn spells.
Price of Progress – I recommend two main. No burn spell scales so immensely. Nothing feels as good as dealing 8 damage from a 2cc spell. Once, against Aluren, this card did 18 damage over two games and I only cast it twice. However, it can be dead and opponents can sometimes play around it. On a rare occasion, you'll curse it for not being able to taget creatures.
Lava Dart – Run this only if you are running Dyrad. I do like the ability to spread my damage out over 2 turns, but this spell can be rather underwhelming when you’re looking to deal 3 damage.
Seal of Fire – You can run this over Shock to help pump that Goyf. Also, it is an acceptable first turn play in so much as it saves mana during the later turns.
Tarfire – rather meh, but it is cute for pumping Goyf a little extra.
Pyrite Spellbomb – FU, Silver Knight, FU. Hardly cost effective, but it could be theoretically cycled at a key time. And, of course, it puts an artifact in the yard for Goyf pumps.
Cursed Scroll – another possible answer to Silver Knight. Also recurring damage can’t be too bad, right? Unfortunately, this is a great Pithing Needle target and surprisingly mana hungry.
Rift Bolt – 3 damage for 1 mana. However, this deck often hits top deck mode and “hard casting” this spell is terribly cost inefficient compared to your other spells. Also, it is hardly any good with an early Dryad.

Possible Spells for Creature Heavy Versions (not recommended for decks running less than 17 creatures):
Rancor – makes anything bigger and full of Trample
Reckless Charge – don’t forget to flash it back
Jitte – Personally, I feel that Jitte is too mana hungry for this deck. If you are running Jitte, than be sure to run 20 or more lands.

Side Board

Mandatory SB Cards
Krosan Grip – You must have a way to deal CounterTop and Jitte. I’d run Naturlize but it doesn’t have Split Second, now does it?

Possible SB Cards
Price of Progress – more efficient burn
Tormod’s Crypt – for the yard reliant combo decks
Pryoclasm – screw goblins and the new popular Elf decks.
Flamebreak – I prefer Pyroclasm because of its cheaper cc.
Pithing Needle – the catchall answer to troublesome permanents
Tin Street Hooligan – a beater and artifact removal
Red Blasts – I originally thought that these may be good in the board, but they don’t deal any damage. And, son, you’re running a burn deck, not a control deck.
Pyrostatic Pillar - Personally, I don't like "passive" cards like this, but it can be helpful against storm combo.

The Sucky Stuff That Should Not Be in The Deck:
Browbeat – 3 mana for a sorcery speed 5 damage spell is not that good in Legacy. Plus, it lets the opponent make a strategic decision that will never be in your favor.
Shock – Is there a reason to play this over Tarfire or even Seal of Fire?
Lava Spike – It can’t target critters. You want as much flexibility as possible. “But wait, Price or Progress doesn’t target critters!” Fair enough, but Lava Spike will never deal ten damage to the opponent.
Chain of Plasma – This is a 2cc spell that will be copied to kill your critters. No thanks. Once again, this is a card that lets your opponent make a strategic decision that will never be in your favor. If you are looking for a 3 damage spell for :1::r:, run Incinerate.

Even more variants:

Black Splash Variant (Japanese List)

Creatures (23)
4Mogg Fanatic
4Dark Confidant
4Tarmogoyf
3Blood Knight
3Grim Lavamancer
3Keldon Marauders
2Goblin Tinkerer

Spells (18)
4Lightning Bolt
3Fireblast
3Pyrite Spellbomb
3Reckless Abandon
3Chain Lightning
2Cursed Scroll

Lands (19)
4Bloodstained Mire
4Badlands
4Taiga
3Wasteland
2Snow-Covered Mountain
1Polluted Delta
1Wooded Foothills

Even though Goyf Sligh sorely needs card drawing, I’d hate to butcher the already shaky mana base by adding black. Dark Confidant is also a critter that hardly ever lives to do his job. Plus, I want beaters in this deck, not critters that will sit on the table and be overvalued. Lastly, don’t let him flip over Fireblast. :frown:

A creature heavy German List:

Creature (21)
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 River Boa
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Troll Ascetic
4 Vinelasher Kudzu

Spells (16)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Life from the Loam
3 Rancor
2 Seal of Fire
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Land (24)
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

DragoFireheart
10-28-2007, 02:56 PM
Isn't this just like Dryad sligh that simply added a Goyf?

Shouldn't this be in the New and Developmental Decks Forum?

I'm not trying to bring this idea down or anything but shouldn't there be more testing before putting it in this forum?

Peter_Rotten
10-28-2007, 03:04 PM
Isn't this just like Dryad sligh that simply added a Goyf?

YES! A chance to quote myself!


Feel free to read the original Dryad Sligh Thread. It has an excellent opening post and is even more detailed than this one.


Shouldn't this be in the New and Developmental Decks Forum?

I'm not trying to bring this idea down or anything but shouldn't there be more testing before putting it in this forum?

Here is a list of its recent T8 performances:

Cuse (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=168279&postcount=282)
Germany (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=3277)
Germany (http://www.germagic.de/dc/event.php?event=Bazaar-Liga+Legacy+September+2007)
Japan (http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/AMC_25th_E.html)
Mass (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=172091&postcount=47)

The deck has been around for a rather long time in its weaker Goyf-less version. It is a "finished" decks which is optimized and thoroughly tested. Maybe the Dryad Sligh thread should have been moved earlier.

DragoFireheart
10-28-2007, 03:10 PM
[Removed poor joke]

-Edit-

Just kidding. I was reading your comments about creatures and saw how you didn't like Kird Ape. I always thought that Kird Ape was a staple in R/G beats. Is there simply no room for the classic?

Phantom
10-28-2007, 03:28 PM
I really think that the black splash is too good to not run. I think the right way to go with it is take advantage of blacks disruption and let the deck slow down but be more consistent (for example no all or nothing Fireblasts). I've been running this list for a while:

//Creatures (16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Q. Dryad
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant

//Burn (12)
4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Magma Jet (or Seal of Fire or Mogg Fanatic)

//Discard (12)
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize

//Land (20)
8 Black fetches
4 Bayou
4 Badlands
3 Swamp
1 Mountain



It's almost GAGOMY, but I think it fits here better. I really like this build because it can play aggro or aggro/control thanks to the strength and independence of its creatures (much like Thresh, I only ever really need one on the board to win) and Dark Confidant is just too perfect in Sligh to pass up.

I'm having trouble with pinning down that burn spot as I love Magma Jet (and it is great with Dryad) but it might be too mana intesive, and Seal is great to pump Goyf, and Fanatic is his usual amazing self (I'd definitely go with him if I ran Jitte, but there is really no reason for it here). Lava Dart is not something I had considered, but I'm not sure it fits.

Zach Tartell
10-28-2007, 03:29 PM
But nothing in Amercia, so those don't count. :tongue:




Cuse (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=168279&postcount=282)
Mass (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=172091&postcount=47)

diffy
10-28-2007, 03:37 PM
Why not splash blue for complete brokeness with Wee Dragonauts (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/137.html) and Intuition?

A local plays this deck since ages and it can do some really stupid things and doesn't look all that off from this list. You basically sacrifise some aggressiveness/creatures and burn for a more combo-like finish and more carddraw/filtering.

I don't have his exact list, but it roughly looks like this:



4 Wee Dragonauts (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/137.html)
4 Quirion Dryad (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/287.html)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)

3 Intuition (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/70.html)
4 Accumulated Knowledge (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/26.html)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
4 Ponder (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/79.html)

4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

4 Lava Dart (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/94.html)
4 Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/al/en/162.html)
4 Chain Lightning (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/137.html)

4 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)
1 Windswept Heath (http://magiccards.info/on/en/328.html)
2 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
3 Volcanic Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/302.html)
3 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/al/en/293.html)
2 Taiga (http://magiccards.info/al/en/292.html)

tsabo_tavoc
10-28-2007, 04:02 PM
I strongly advocate Pyrostatic Pillar here, especially in the more burn-oriented versions. Great against Thresh, Storm-based combo, a large number of control decks. It should be in the Sideboard, and could even add to the Maindeck.

Peter_Rotten
10-28-2007, 04:16 PM
I would avoid splashing a third color. Any benefit form Black (or Blue) can hardly justify butchering the mana base. Keep in mind, we don't have Thresh's cantrips to smooth the manabase and ensure land drops.

@ the Blue/Wee Dragonaut list

After looking at that list, I would ask myself, "Why not run UGr Thresh?" It could run better critters, the same burn, and better draw/manipulation.

@ the Black Nantuko Shady list.

Your mana should be used to cast burn spells after turn three - not pump a mediocre critter. Plus, making sure you have :b::b: on turn two could really be a pain. Goyf Sligh wants good top decks towards the mid/late game. Burn spells are good top decks - black discard spells are not. Plus, Goyf Sligh wants to run 16 or more burn spells.

Remember the game plan: early critter damage then finish with burn.

Pillar is a solid suggestion for the SB and I'll edit into the original post.

AnwarA101
10-28-2007, 06:00 PM
Is it possible that this deck could utilize Lotus Petal? It seems that it would help power out two early critters or a turn 1 Tarmogoyf or Quirion Dryad. Even a burn spell plus Fanatic would help get the early jump. It might hurt a bit in the late game, but I'm thinking this deck can use the tempo in the early game to win very quickly.

kicks_422
10-28-2007, 09:04 PM
The deck has been around for a rather long time in its weaker Goyf-less version. It is a "finished" decks which is optimized and thoroughly tested. Maybe the Dryad Sligh thread should have been moved earlier.

You mean my pet deck was actually close to getting out of N&D?! And P_R quoted me in an OP?! Cool.. :cool:

Regarding Lotus Petal, it's not really worth it. If you fit in Petals, you'll be taking out either creatures (which lessens your permanent threat density), burn (which lessens your reach and removal), or lands (which the deck already runs a minimum of). I think the deck structure's fairly tight as it is, and besides, being red, it already has enough of an early start to win against non-combo.

AnwarA101
10-28-2007, 09:42 PM
Regarding Lotus Petal, it's not really worth it. If you fit in Petals, you'll be taking out either creatures (which lessens your permanent threat density), burn (which lessens your reach and removal), or lands (which the deck already runs a minimum of). I think the deck structure's fairly tight as it is, and besides, being red, it already has enough of an early start to win against non-combo.

Well I was thinking something like this -

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
3 Fireblast

4 Lotus Petal
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
6 Mountain

Elite seem solid against almost every deck and Lotus Petal and Wasteland should provide tempo boost in many situations.

EDIT - I guess Elite is just worse than Kird Ape in this deck.

kicks_422
10-28-2007, 09:53 PM
25 sources for mana is too much in the deck. I only have 18, and I think that number is just about right to avoid constant mullligans and have enough when one or two are Wastelanded or LD'd. Speaking of which, Wasteland is weak in the deck when there's nothing that could really complement it... I guess you could say that Wasteland "hampers" them while you beat down, but seriously, will any deck fold to a Wasteland not backed up by some other significant disruption?

Volt
10-29-2007, 12:46 AM
This is in fact a pretty good deck. Here is the build that I've been wrecking face with lately, whenever I feel like taking a break from slivers:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
6 Mountain

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tin-Street Hooligan (solves a lot of problems!)
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
2 Brute Force


I don't like basic Forest in the deck. I tried that way back when, and always found it clunky. I even sat down one night and goldfished several dozen games, keeping track of the games that I drew Forest and how it affected my critical turn. I found that putting a basic forest into play almost always slowed me down by a turn or more.

I also don't care for playing Lava Dart and Fireblast in the same deck, but I know many people swear by it. I just don't think the deck can easily support so many spells that require mountains to be sacrificed.

I agree that Kird Apes ain't what they used to be, but I haven't really come up with anything better to put in that slot.

I can take or leave Quirion Dryad in this deck. Obviously, it's terrific if you play it early. As we all know, it's also an annoying topdeck later in the game.

Oh, and I really don't get why people want to play Incinerate any more. It's just plain bad.

Btw, Engineered Explosives out of the sideboard has been amazing for me.

Nydaeli
10-29-2007, 12:55 AM
Magus of the Moon could be pretty good in here as at least a nominal form of disruption, when Creatures+Burn.dec won't cut it. It can hang out at the top of the curve and wreck random multicolored decks when they show up - though that may not be needed as much as combo protection, among other things.

Peter_Rotten
10-29-2007, 07:25 AM
I don't like basic Forest in the deck. I tried that way back when, and always found it clunky. I even sat down one night and goldfished several dozen games, keeping track of the games that I drew Forest and how it affected my critical turn. I found that putting a basic forest into play almost always slowed me down by a turn or more.

I don't doubt that the basic Forest slows down the goldfish, but I believe it's a necessary evil in tournament play. If you are running 8 green spells, you will need that Forest for decks running Wastelands and random stupid situations like this one: My opponent is running Death and Taxes - a surprisingly rough match for me. Silver Knights and Jittes are big-jobbing me. He Ghost Quarters my friggin' Taiga to cut me off of Green for my SBed Grips. I search for my Forest :wink: and later cast my Grip. Granted, stupid situations like that are few and far between, but getting a Taiga Wasted is not uncommon. IMO, the times I need my green mana to stick around are often enough to justify the single Forest.

Magus of the Moon is a very interesting card. It doesn't quite fit into the plan of Cheap Beats and Burn, but it is alluring in so much as it can completely shut out an opponent. Against which decks would you play it? Also, is he worth giving up Price of Progress?*

* Quick rules check. Magus of the Moon in play makes Price of Progress suck, correct?

Eldariel
10-29-2007, 07:51 AM
Nope, Magus doesn't hurt Price at all. They become non-basic Mountains.

xsockmonkeyx
10-29-2007, 07:52 AM
* Quick rules check. Magus of the Moon in play makes Price of Progress suck, correct?

They would still take damage from PoP as the lands would be non-basic mountains.

EDIT: Damn, beat me by 1 min.

Aggro_zombies
10-29-2007, 09:18 AM
Lol, poor monkey.

Anyone thought about using Burning-Tree Shaman as a sideboard card against control? It seems good versus a deck like Landstill or 43, despite the symmetrical pain.

bigredmeanie
10-29-2007, 11:08 PM
hey so, would this be better with Wasteland, Port and Tangle Wire? A certain deck that ran those cards in extended was around forever.

Iranon
10-29-2007, 11:53 PM
A few observations...

Dark Confidant keeps the good stuff coming, and is in my opinion worth a light splash. I'd probably replace Quirion Dryad with him.

Mishra's Bauble seems an auto-include. Bigger Goyfs, Opt effect with fetch lands. Lotus Petals are also an option. Baubles make either Grim Lavamancer or Nimble Mongoose decent. I'd consider Lotus Petal if I ran Confidant, probably not otherwise.

My current version is

4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Grim Lavamancer*
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Fire
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast

4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Urza's Bauble*

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain

*questionable slots

- Just 1 basic mountain. With only 4 spells of each, Lotus petals are enough to get around annoying Wastelands/Extirpates. All red spells apart from 'Blast cost 1.
- Flipping Fireblasts over is rarely a problem. Having it tends to put my opponent far enough in the red zone that they have more important things to do than applying pressure themselves.
- Nimble Mongoose is possible in the place of 'Mancer. It's either stellar or terrible; I prefer the more dependable Lavamancer. If you run Mongoose, Fireblast is an excellent tool for reaching Thresh.
- If nothing else, goose is a reason not to run 3-mana stuff. It's a 'late game' beater that allows you to cast the rest of your hand on turn 3-4.

kicks_422
10-30-2007, 08:47 AM
hey so, would this be better with Wasteland, Port and Tangle Wire? A certain deck that ran those cards in extended was around forever.

That's another deck altogether. Sligh just goes for the throat, no need for LD/tapping shenigans.

I was enamored of splashing for Dark Confidant as well the moment it was revealed. However, its lack of ability to put actual pressure really dampers the gameplan of the deck. I don't think it's a good fit for a deck that aims to win quickly.

As for Nimble Mongoose, it's not a good creature here. You don't want to recklessly empty your hand just to reach threshold, and if you don't, Kird Ape would be better in the slot than Mongoose.

EDIT: And no, you don't need Baubles to make Grimmie decent.

EDIT2: Now the deck's in DTB?! Suh-weet... You guys are making me miss Legacy even more... LOL.. :tongue:

Xero
11-01-2007, 04:22 PM
What makes Seal of Fire better than Tarfire? Tarfire is more of a surprise and pumps Goyf more than Seal (although you probably already have an instant in the yard). Furthermore, it seems much more likely that your opponent will have an enchantment in the yard vs. a tribal card. Their is also a slim chance that your opponent could Grip your Seal, which would obviously suck.

Wallace
11-01-2007, 05:01 PM
So looking at the current builds of this deck, is Lava Dart really necessary? I am running Dryad but don't really see Lava Dart being all that impressive? I understand that it adds 2 counters to the Dryad but is that really a good enough reason to run Dart? I would rather run a better burn spell in this slot. Here is the current list I am testing for the TMLO:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Kird Ape

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Tarfire
3 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
1 Pyrite Spellbomb

4 Taiga
5 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
4 Pyroblast
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Scald
3 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip

Skinny Oprah
11-01-2007, 05:04 PM
wait, is this a deck I should really be watching?

Peter_Rotten
11-01-2007, 05:52 PM
wait, is this a deck I should really be watching?

Well, that is really for you to decide. What this forum can tell you is that versions of this deck have placed in the T8 at least 3 times in the past 10 six-or-more rounds tournaments across the world.

I personally can recommend at least paying attention to the deck since besides those placements, JP and I both piloted the deck to a T8 finish at a smaller Mass tourney. I think that Goyf helps a bit and the meta is ripe for a good "Little Man + Burn deck." I doubt the deck will ever achieve DTB status - it is too easy to hate, but, for now, I think ppl should pay attention to it.

@ avoiding Dart and playing Rift Bolt or Lava Spike in place: Well, first Spike. My burn MUST be flexible. I need it to target both critters or players. I hate to be forced to toss the burn at the opponent. Rift has a similar problem in so much as to cast it cost effectively, I must "cast" it a turn later and during my upkeep. Of course both cards deal more damage than Dart, but neither is close to as flexible. Plus, a turn 3 Rift is rather crappy with Dryad. I get a choice of paying :2::r: on turn three just to make my Dryad 2/2 or paying :r: to not pump my Dryad that turn. A turn 1 Rift also sucks with Dryad.

@ Seal vs. Tarfire. I'm not really sold either way. Sometimes I like "investing" my mana early to use the 2 damage later. The Tribal vs. Instant debate may be moot since your opponent will probably have neither in his yard. Would a 2/2 split be worth exploring?

Barook
11-01-2007, 07:07 PM
I found that (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10822) list very interesting due to the inclusion of LftL.

Wasteland + Loam is pretty techy and so are recurring Factories. Pumping Kudzus with Fetchlands over and over again seems to be nice, too.

I'm just asking myself if Wild Mongrel has a place in this kind of deck. Loam + Mongrel provides you with another fat beater and the synergy of Mongrel + Tarmogoyf can't be denied. But the main question is: What to cut?

paps
11-01-2007, 07:52 PM
I also think that Dark Confidant could be very useful in this deck. What happens if you can't burn out your opponent before you're in topdeck mod in the R/G version? You lose, most often.
The black splash is certainly interesting, however, it does mess with your mana base and make you very vulnerable to wasteland. So yeah. It's probably worth testing.

@The LFTL List: Doesn't it seem a little weak if you dont have an LFTL in your hand?

@Sacearuse: Rift Bolt is certainly an odd and original inclusion. It's an aweful topdeck though, and probably shouldn't be a 4-of.

Wallace
11-01-2007, 07:58 PM
@Sacearuse: Rift Bolt is certainly an odd and original inclusion. It's an aweful topdeck though, and probably shouldn't be a 4-of.


Actually rift bolt is a carryover from my burn build. I forgot how bad Rift bolt interacted with Dryad and I will be replacing it with something else. Will prob add in a 4th Tarfire and add 3 x Price of Progress in the main, this will free up 3 spots in the SB and allow me to run Needle in the board.

Nihil Credo
11-01-2007, 09:01 PM
I have tried a different approach to the blue splash. Stifle+Wasteland+Daze is currently the most cost-effective LD package a deck can run, so, assuming you can make the manabase work, it would be an awesome addition to an aggro deck.

I also added Brainstorm, partly to help the shaky manabase and the topdeck mode, but mostly because (along with Bolt and Lavamancer activations) it allowed me to keep Stifle mana open and still do not lose tempo if it didn't get a target.

And no, I don't think finding room for 4 Forces of Will would be a good idea. It is critical to be able to burn an opponent out from a fairly high life total.

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Mountain
4 [PR] Taiga
4 [PR] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [PS] Quirion Dryad
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [PR] Lightning Bolt
1 [FD] Magma Jet
3 [VI] Fireblast
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [PR] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

kicks_422
11-01-2007, 09:08 PM
is Lava Dart really necessary?

I never really liked Lava Dart myself. The deck's running just the right number of lands (18) that Lava Dart and Fireblast can't coexist. And I'd choose Fireblast over Lava Dart anyday. You should also probably cut Kird Apes for Fanatics, since they're more useful nowadyas than Ape (sad but true).


Wasteland + Loam is pretty techy and so are recurring Factories. Pumping Kudzus with Fetchlands over and over again seems to be nice, too.

I'm just asking myself if Wild Mongrel has a place in this kind of deck. Loam + Mongrel provides you with another fat beater and the synergy of Mongrel + Tarmogoyf can't be denied. But the main question is: What to cut?

That would be another deck altogether - that would be AggroLoam. People, Taigas + Tarmogoyfs + Lightning Bolts != Sligh. It's the deck concept, not just the cards that are in it.


I also think that Dark Confidant could be very useful in this deck. What happens if you can't burn out your opponent before you're in topdeck mod in the R/G version? You lose, most often.

That happens to you? Really? R/G already has enough power and speed in creatures and burn that "running out of gas" rarely happens. That's the whole point of playing Sligh over Burn in the first place. And as I mentioned in a post 22, Dark Confidant makes the deck sit back with Bob and wait for the card draws instead of attacking. That's bad.

Any reason why everyone is playing only 16 creatures now? If I would run an 18land/16creature/26burn build, my burn spells would be:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Seal of Fire
3 Tarfire
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast

Versatility over power. You get a lot of power from your creatures anyway.

Wallace
11-01-2007, 09:11 PM
@ Nihil...:confused:

WTF is that? You do know this is the Goyf Sligh thread right? That deck would lose to most of the meta w/ wasteland alone. The whole point of Sligh is to Beat your opponents face with big, cost effective creatures while pointing the best burn spells red has to offer at there face!!! Adding a thrid color will destroy the mana base and slow the deck down. The Stifle's and Daze's are nice, but the totally counteract what this deck is trying to do. Brainstorm is the best draw card Legacy has to offer, it dosn't belong in this deck. If you want to play the list you posted then just play R/U/G Thresh or Grow.

paps
11-01-2007, 09:15 PM
@kicks: No, not often. But it does happen occasionally...I just run out of steam and can't win. Especially if major burn gets countered twice in a row. Then again, if they can counter burn, they can counter Bob...meh.

Shriekmaw
11-01-2007, 11:28 PM
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Kird Ape

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Tarfire
3 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
1 Pyrite Spellbomb

4 Taiga
5 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
4 Pyroblast
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Scald
[COLOR=black]3 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip



The only cards that I'm not a fan of currently in your build is Rift Bolt and Lava Spike. I believe you want to have instants in your hand to have an element of surprise and the ability to pump your dryad, goyf, and food for the lavamancer. I know that some of the alternatives don't do as much damage as rift bolt and lava spike, but I believe in the long run its a lot better strategy in this type of deck.

I also don't like the 1 basic forest that you are running in the deck. There is no need for it since your running 8 fetches and 4 taigas in the deck. I do like the spellbombs since they are colorless damage and a 1 drop.

I think this deck has a lot of potential b/c it puts your opponents on a very quick clock which a lot of decks can't deal with. I would like to see Seal Of Primordium in the board along with a couple of krosan grips as sometimes 3 mana can to tough to always have with this deck.

Looks very interesting and hope to see this deck at The Mana Leak Open.

Volt
11-02-2007, 03:02 AM
Lava Spike is ass.

Rift Bolt is better, but still subpar.

I like Seal of Fire a little better than Tarfire because you can drop it whenever you happen to have a mana left over and then use it later on "for free." However, it might be worth trying out a 2/2 split as PR suggested. I don't think you want to run more than 4 "shocks" in this deck, though.

I still say basic Forest is terrible, although I can see why you might want one if you're playing 8 green creatures. I just happen to know from experience that it really sucks when you have the winning Fireblast in hand and 2 lands in play, but one of them is a basic Forest.

Also, I want to repeat this for emphasis. It's important. Lava Dart and Fireblast don't play nice together in a deck with 18 lands.

Btw, I actually prefer 19 lands.

kicks_422
11-02-2007, 03:05 AM
What's your current build, Volt? Are you still (loosely) sticking to the 20/20/20 split?

Volt
11-02-2007, 03:08 AM
What's your current build, Volt? Are you still (loosely) sticking to the 20/20/20 split?

Yeah, pretty close. My current build is in post #14 of this thread. The only change is that I'm trying out 2x Reckless Charge in place of the 2x Brute Force.

Peter_Rotten
11-02-2007, 08:34 AM
Let me repeat:

Krosan Grip – You must have a way to deal CounterTop and Jitte. I’d run Naturlize but it doesn’t have Split Second, now does it?

You must have a reliable way to deal with CounterTop which pwns this deck. Yes, three mana is on occasion tough to achieve, but what other Spilt Second Disenchants exist?

@ the single Forest. Having your 2nd turn Taiga wasted sucks - especially if you don't have a 3rd land. Often I found the deck playing like this against decks packing Wastelands.

Turn 1, Mountain, cast Little Man or Seal
Turn 2, Sac Land --> Forest, cast :1::g: man
Turn 3, land, cast :r: burn spell and :1::r: burn spell (like Jet or Incinerate)

nitewolf9
11-02-2007, 09:36 AM
Let me repeat:

Krosan Grip – You must have a way to deal CounterTop and Jitte. I’d run Naturlize but it doesn’t have Split Second, now does it?

You must have a reliable way to deal with CounterTop which pwns this deck. Yes, three mana is on occasion tough to achieve, but what other Spilt Second Disenchants exist?


Have you considered seal of primordium? You can drop it before they set up counter/top and it fits your manabase a little more effectively. I think krosan grip is the stronger option but if getting to 3 mana seems like it would be hard then you might want to consider it.

Peter_Rotten
11-02-2007, 10:20 AM
Have you considered seal of primordium? You can drop it before they set up counter/top and it fits your manabase a little more effectively.

But it also can be Dazed or FoWed. If I play around Daze, then I'm casting Seal third turn - the same turn I would possibly be casting Grip. Top Decked Seal also sucks against CounterTop. I am yet to be satisfied with any other options :frown:.

Wallace
11-02-2007, 11:43 AM
So I have my list all set for TMLO III. I have decided to go with a 3/3/2 split of Tarfire, Seal of Fire and Spellbomb, this give Goyf a chance to really shine. I have included a card that no one has even mentioned yet, I am not going to say what it is though, I will let everyone know, after the event how it did. In the board I have gone with 2x Krosan Grip 2x Seal of Prime. This allows me to have an early 2 drop Art./Enchant. removal spell and an uncounterable one. Hope to see everyone there this weekend, I am really excited to go, this will be my first MLO.

Yeah 300 posts!

Androstanolone
11-02-2007, 11:57 AM
Someone mentioned lotus petal, which is pretty bad in here, but chrome mox is good enough to be considered. The card loss is significant, but consider a turn 1 dryad or goyf? For the people doing the black splash, a turn 1 confidant is very brutal and recovers the card loss on the following turn. Admittedly it messes with the curve some, but the efficiency of it combined with the brute speed should at least be considered in a deck that relies on brute speed and efficiency. The deck would need to be modified a little, 2 lands (mountains) and 2 cards cut for chromes perhaps. It does open up the chance to run it with art land, pyrite spellbomb, and shrap blast. I'm getting pretty "fringe" here, but chrome mox has possibilities and nobody in this forum has mentioned it, so I'm just sayin'.

Phantom
11-02-2007, 12:43 PM
I don't really understand how the non black splashes deal with combo consistently. Is the clock fast enough? Is Pillar really enough out of the board (and sometimes REB)? What about graveyard hate? Or is it just a bad matchup and you pray for the best and move on?

paps
11-02-2007, 07:21 PM
Has Sensai's Divining Top been considered in this deck? It helps Goyf is killed, and seems to be a card that would really help in topdeck mode, and be fairly useful all of the time.

kicks_422
11-02-2007, 07:55 PM
Someone mentioned lotus petal, which is pretty bad in here, but chrome mox is good enough to be considered.

Not really. The card loss IS significant in a deck that has no draw whatsoever. I tested it before, and it helps power out Turn 1 Dryads/Goyfs/Firewalkers (back when I ran them... thinking of running them again as well), but either those Turn 1 plays don't stick or because of the card you pitched to Chrome Mox, you'd run out of threats/burn to apply pressure, nullifying the early one you brought down.


I don't really understand how the non black splashes deal with combo consistently. Is the clock fast enough? Is Pillar really enough out of the board (and sometimes REB)? What about graveyard hate? Or is it just a bad matchup and you pray for the best and move on?

The only thing the deck has out of the SB for combo would be 4 Pillars and 4 Crypts really. If we're talking about clock, it's not blisteringly fast as most combo. However, when playing this deck, I often encounter combo players who get rattled after they see their life plunge to dangerously low levels by Turn 3. Basically, the deck just applies as much pressure as it could and prays that either the combo player is a scrub, or the combo player is forced to go off with an iffy hand and fizzle - or both.


Has Sensai's Divining Top been considered in this deck? It helps Goyf is killed, and seems to be a card that would really help in topdeck mode, and be fairly useful all of the time.

I also tested that out before, but with the overload of threats/burn in the deck, I rarely get to use the Top ability. And with the low amount of land, surprisingly I fidn it hard to keep one mana open for it.

Iranon
11-02-2007, 08:53 PM
About the Dark Confidants... he'll be swinging most of the time. Drawing a card off them, then trading in combat is vey acceptable. So is burning away a ~3/3 away before swinging; occasionally so is trading Bob + 1 Burn for an opposing fattie (still achieving card parity or better).
Sitting back and waiting for a lethal amount of Burn to accumulate is an option, but often not the correct one.
'He's bad because he's too good, making me afraid to lose him' is not a very strong argument.



Chrome Mox is horrible considering our curve; if anything Lotus Petal is all the acceleration the deck needs. The curve is too low to actually make good use of the additional permanent mana source, at least not enough to forgo a threat/burn spell.

***

I also believe the deck lacks the sheer power to dilute its game plan.

Re opposing Jitte: In most cases, the best solution is to fry the wielder, then win before they make good use of it. Second best is running Jittes on our own; while our mana base makes it a fairly bad card at least it's not totally dead if our opponent doesn't have one.

Re opposing Countertop: Admittedly, it's a wrecking ball. But I'm opposed to board possibly irrelevant cards against decks with a stronger lategame, causing us to lose games we otherwise had a very good job of winning for the off chance to turn the tides against their god draw (we also need to draw these when they would be relevant, with little/no library manipulation).

Re SDT: The hallmarks of the deck are redundancy and efficiency, and the deck tries to use up all its mana. Just no. Magma Jet would be slightly less poor, but also isn't good enough.

kicks_422
11-02-2007, 09:56 PM
About the Dark Confidants... he'll be swinging most of the time. Drawing a card off them, then trading in combat is vey acceptable. So is burning away a ~3/3 away before swinging; occasionally so is trading Bob + 1 Burn for an opposing fattie (still achieving card parity or better).
Sitting back and waiting for a lethal amount of Burn to accumulate is an option, but often not the correct one.
'He's bad because he's too good, making me afraid to lose him' is not a very strong argument.

Point taken. However, is he good enough to tweak the manabase for? And since he'll be replacing burn, wouldn't the burn be too few? Is card draw off of Confidant the solution to everything?

In my testing, NO. The deck should be casting threats or burning face, instead of drawing cards. Dark Confidant pushes you a bit into the later turns of the game, which contradicts the whole point of the deck. Really, all he ever did for me was draw a card (draw a card to replace himself, draw another card, then the game was over).

largebrandon
11-03-2007, 12:42 AM
Chrome Mox is horrible considering our curve; if anything Lotus Petal is all the acceleration the deck needs. The curve is too low to actually make good use of the additional permanent mana source, at least not enough to forgo a threat/burn spell.


If that is the case, why not just use Simian Spirit Guide? Late game you can easily play him.

Peter_Rotten
11-03-2007, 10:45 AM
About the Dark Confidants... 'He's bad because he's too good, making me afraid to lose him' is not a very strong argument.


Agreed. But he's bad for the following reasons:

1. He's a weak beater in the 2cc slot (especially compared to other options like Goyf and Dryad)
2. He has an ass of 1 and dies to just about anything including a strong fart or dirty look. Or strong look and dirty fart. Take your pick.
3. He complicates the manabase making it weaker in the face of Wasteland and Stifle.
4. He makes running our most powerful burn much more difficult. The complicated manabase prevents us from casting Price or Progress or personally makes me too scared to run Fireblast. Removing both of those cards from the main deck seems like an aweful plan.



Re opposing Jitte: In most cases, the best solution is to fry the wielder, then win before they make good use of it.

Generally this is a satsifactory plan, but I noticed that many of the decks running Jitte are running Silver Knight also :frown:.

Volt
11-03-2007, 12:04 PM
Tin-Street Hooligan takes care of Jittes, Chalices, Vials, and Pithing Needles. I'm telling ya, he's not a waste of a maindeck slot.

DragoFireheart
11-03-2007, 12:11 PM
I'm a bit wowed at the fact that this is a DTW.

It would seem like for some reason that this deck would have a difficult time against combo decks. How does this deck handle faster combo decks?

Volt
11-03-2007, 12:21 PM
Can we stop it with the "I can't believe it's not butter!" comments? The deck is in this forum because it has put up the prerequisite results, plain and simple. Check your preconceptions at the door.

Regarding the combo matchups... The Breakfast matchup isn't bad at all, because we have infinite burn for their critters. Against TES, we lose game 1, then board in 8 cards and probably lose game 2 as well. Oh well.

Seregrauko
11-03-2007, 03:16 PM
Hi There!

I've played ALOT of :r::g: Aggro.. Not so much in Legacy, but in Vintage before Legacy got it's breakthrough in Denmark. I played it, of course, as a meta-hate.dec. With some cardchoices that would seem odd in Legacy. I never played alot of serious tournaments with it, or placed impressively.. But I sure hated some expensive decks. Ruining the opposing player's day.

Though I wanted to chip in anyways.

I think Price of Progress is an overlooked card here. It often burns for 6(+).
I'm thinking of toying around with this deck. But I would most certainly play Jitte in the main. Makes your MU against Aggro(-control) alot better.

Another card I would test is Magus of the Moon. Playing 4 Wooded, 4 Heath and some Forests.. If he does the job good, and the opponent has a bigger beater on the defense, then you just don't attack. If he's poor (in the Gobbo match). He's still a 2/2 beater/blocker that at least trades with a goblin.
When boarding he gets the kick for Pyroclasm or some insane Aggro-hate.

We have to look at SB cards for the particular Combo match. And we still have to mind Control.. We have to dedicate 8(+) SB slots for the Combo match, I think.

Hope to keep the discussion going..

godryk
11-03-2007, 05:38 PM
I really like Price of Progress, because most of decks in my meta pack lots of duals and other non basic lands, and it easily becomes a second finisher just like Fireblast. Dealing "only" 6 damage por 1R is good enough, and there are always crazy plays like dealing 16 damage. Of course the opponent will play some basics if he's carefull, but you can even seriously hit goblins with a pair of Taigas and a Rishadan Port. I would always play this card, if not in the MB, then in the SB, but it makes us faster.

Against combo I really like Pirostatic Pillar. It buys us several turns and deals some damge while the opponent plays some brainstorm/cunning wish/burning wish and the removal/bouncer. This damages (easily 4-6) combined with the damage we can deal during those turns we have won (and consider that we have some more since the opponent would have trashed some tutors/draw) my finish the opponent. Of course its a hard matchup, but I don't think we can stop them, we just need to buy 4-5 turns. If a deck is faster than us, then, we should change things to slow them down.

Iranon
11-03-2007, 07:30 PM
@largebrandon:

In a 3 colour build, half the reason for them is the mana fixing. In a 2 colour build, I probably wouldn't bother with either.



@Peter_Rotten:


Agreed. But he's bad for the following reasons:

1. He's a weak beater in the 2cc slot (especially compared to other options like Goyf and Dryad)
2. He has an ass of 1 and dies to just about anything including a strong fart or dirty look. Or strong look and dirty fart. Take your pick.
3. He complicates the manabase making it weaker in the face of Wasteland and Stifle.
4. He makes running our most powerful burn much more difficult. The complicated manabase prevents us from casting Price or Progress or personally makes me too scared to run Fireblast. Removing both of those cards from the main deck seems like an aweful plan.

1. Drawing an additional card more than makes up for this; while this deck goldfishes around turn 4 real games are rarely as fast and the card advantage adds up.
2. Dryad is as vulnerable at first. While she gets tougher, having Confidant burned after he drew you cards is no issue at all.
3. The deck can support midgame Fireblasts and is usually the aggressor; Wasteland should rarely be a problem. Stifle is annoying on the draw, but the fetch count doesn't really change by that much. With 4 cards at 1b and 1g, everything else at r mana denial isn't a major concern.
4a. Confidant and Fireblast isn't a problem from my experience. More often than not, taking 6 has helped me overwhelm my opponent before the life loss beame a problem, through the ability to play whatever else I drew and have a bigass burn spell that I can cast immediately. There are better scenarios, but it's hardly something to fear.
4b. I never even considered Price of Progress (hit or miss, no effect on board position). If you're resolved to run it and consider it a star of the deck, I agree that another splash for a mere 4 cards makes no sense.

Dryads are a little too unreliable for my tastes, being only good when cast turn 2. We can't really abuse them anyway due to a lack of cantrips. Vinelasher Kudzu is similar but worse. Tarmogoyf is in a league on its own, and I honestly believe Dark Confidant to be the next best (read: least objectionable) 2-drop as straight beaters simply aren't efficient enough any more.
The only question in my opinion is whether he's worth a splash... which might depend on your metagame (how effective is Price of Progress; does black add strong sideboard choices, do you fear mana denial).



Quote:
Re opposing Jitte: In most cases, the best solution is to fry the wielder, then win before they make good use of it.

Generally this is a satsifactory plan, but I noticed that many of the decks running Jitte are running Silver Knight also .

Another valid point. That post was mostly a reaction to boarding Krosan Grip for Jitte (which I believe to be overkill under the combined concerns of mana cost, the potential of being dead and the alternatives of burning the wielder/Just Winning).
Jittes on our own and Tin Street Hooligan have the advantage of never being totally dead, those would go in against Jittes if we had them. Things like Shattering Spree/Pithing Needle are cheap and quite strong and might go in (definitely if there are other applications).

DragoFireheart
11-03-2007, 08:42 PM
Regarding the combo matchups... The Breakfast matchup isn't bad at all, because we have infinite burn for their critters. Against TES, we lose game 1, then board in 8 cards and probably lose game 2 as well. Oh well.

I have a question. Goyf Sligh isn't strictly R/G for colors is it? I don't enjoy the idea of my deck dying so easily to combo.

Can this topic also be the discussion of other G/X combinations? Or would those ideas be a completely different deck type?

Peter_Rotten
11-03-2007, 08:44 PM
Can this topic also be the discussion of other G/X combinations? Or would those ideas be a completely different deck type?

This thread should stay focused on RG although we are rather enamored with discussing the RGb build with Confidant.

DragoFireheart
11-03-2007, 08:54 PM
So how have the Lavamancers been working for you? [Whomever is running it].

It would seem counter productive to take cards out of the graveyard when Goyf needs them to be big and beefy. Are there any other pingers that can be used in Grim lavamancers place?

Has anyone considered using Sulfuric Vortex in either the main or the sideboard? It would help with any sort of life-gaining decks which normally cause Burn decks problems. [Though I'm not sure how much of a problem life gain is for Goyf Sligh].

Also can we pick a different name for this deck other than Goyf sligh? Just call it R/G beats? I don't mean to sound picky but... see my sig. :laugh:

Volt
11-03-2007, 09:31 PM
So how have the Lavamancers been working for you? [Whomever is running it].

It would seem counter productive to take cards out of the graveyard when Goyf needs them to be big and beefy. Are there any other pingers that can be used in Grim lavamancers place?

An oft-asked question. Lavamancers are essential to the deck. PR put it very nicely in the opening post when he said "Grim’s job is to deal 4+ damage to the opponent and/or keep chump blockers off the table." You can accomplish this while judiciously selecting cards in your graveyard to RFG without diminishing goyf-size. Often, you only need to keep 1 or 2 cards in your graveyard to maintain maximum goyf-size. As PR also mentioned, you can also use Grim to purposely reduce goyf-size if you're losing the goyf war.

kicks_422
11-03-2007, 10:57 PM
@Iranon: It seems like you're really sold on Confidant. Care to give us an Rgb list?

thefreakaccident
11-03-2007, 11:03 PM
Against combo I really like Pirostatic Pillar. It buys us several turns and deals some damge while the opponent plays some brainstorm/cunning wish/burning wish and the removal/bouncer. This damages (easily 4-6) combined with the damage we can deal during those turns we have won (and consider that we have some more since the opponent would have trashed some tutors/draw) my finish the opponent. Of course its a hard matchup, but I don't think we can stop them, we just need to buy 4-5 turns. If a deck is faster than us, then, we should change things to slow them down.

You have no way to slow them down... the only combo deck that you would hope to beat with this deck is Emdlin's SI, and you would have to survive until turn 2 to do so.... Out of all seriousness, if I were playing this deck and was paired against combo, I would scoop to save both of us some time... although there isn't much saved time there...

The thresh MU doesn't look all that bad, seeing as everything is a threat, but I have beaten burn with thresh in the past, so it cannot be all that bad for them, seeing as they now have ways to prevent the damage (i.e. destroy your creatures/ block them to hell).

lukatron2
11-04-2007, 01:51 AM
Also can we pick a different name for this deck other than Goyf sligh? Just call it R/G beats? I don't mean to sound picky but...

I second that (at least for the builds that run anything green other than goyf). But than again the name does give it something do distinguish it from other R/G beats decks (when I speak of R/G beats I'm not talking about "zilla stompy")...ohh well, who cares :p

On another note, I've been playing R/G beats for quite some time now and I must say I like the build with the dryads. Even though its pretty much the same as the old deck with Goyf replacing Firewalker, it seems to have some sort of crazy new feel to it...

What do you guys think.

1. Dryad, or no Dryad (If yes...lava dart, no lava dart)?
2. If no Dryads, rancor or no rancor?
3. Jittes in Sb, Main, or not at all?
4. How many PoP
5. I think 1-2 Final fortune would be super sweet in a creature heavy list (16+ creatures). It can speed up your deck by an extra turn or 2. Its like a super fireblast in some instances allowing you to swing for another 4+ damage and draw an extra card (possibly a burn spell)

Barook
11-04-2007, 09:01 AM
As a fan of R/G Beats (which should be the name for the thread instead something stupid like Goyf Slight - I thought we wanted to go away from "deck + goyf" names), I ask myself into what direction the deck should go:

Creature-light, burn heavy or more creatures with burn and pump effects (with the chance of opening yourself for 2-for-1 situations when your opponent plays removal)?
Also, should the deck be tuned to deal as much damage as possible or should it run slower, more controlling cards like Lavamancer, Lava Dart, etc?

From my knowledge of building fast RG decks for Extended, I would try something like this (although the list, especially the manabase, is still unrefined):

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Kird Ape
3 Skyshroud Elite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Keldon Marauders

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rancor
3 Reckless Charge
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

Lands
5 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath

Sure, the build is risky due to the high number of creature pumpers, but also blazing fast, even capable of turn 3 kills during goldfishing.

matelml
11-04-2007, 09:18 AM
I don't think you should build aggro decks with the goldfish in mind. You are always going to have resistance and you should aim to win, not try to win fast. That said you should go for consistency and cut the possible card-disadvantage cards like reckless charge. Rancor is something else cause it's just so good and if the guy isn't killed in response isn't card-disadvantage.

Barook
11-04-2007, 09:34 AM
I don't think you should build aggro decks with the goldfish in mind. You are always going to have resistance and you should aim to win, not try to win fast. That said you should go for consistency and cut the possible card-disadvantage cards like reckless charge. Rancor is something else cause it's just so good and if the guy isn't killed in response isn't card-disadvantage.
I'm not building decks with goldfishing in mind, I just mentioned it. Of course, consistency is better than winning fast with a glass cannon, but you also have to keep in mind that RG has subpar disruption compared to other colors, so you shouldn't be too slow.

I'm trying to get some playtest results later.

Seregrauko
11-04-2007, 11:12 AM
We still need to discuss what options we have against Belcher and other fast combo decks.. What SB cards could do the job?? I suggest Pyroclasm in the board against anything that packs EtW. Tendrils are gonna be tough. Belcher we need to hate with Krosan Grip or something. Though the problem is to make it to turn 3.. :cry:

b4r0n
11-04-2007, 11:45 AM
We still need to discuss what options we have against Belcher and other fast combo decks.. What SB cards could do the job?? I suggest Pyroclasm in the board against anything that packs EtW. Tendrils are gonna be tough. Belcher we need to hate with Krosan Grip or something. Though the problem is to make it to turn 3.. :cry:

Pyroclasm seems decent against Belcher, but Krosan Grip is absolutely terrible. Pithing Needle would be better, but still not great.

I think the only way that this deck will be able to fight Tendrils is by boarding in some combination of Chalice/Pyrostatic Pillar/Pyroclasm and praying. It doesn't seem like a good matchup at all, even post-board. Unless you decide to splash for Duress/Thoughtsieze or Stifle, I think you just have to accept storm combo as an autoloss and focus on decks that are beatable.

Volt
11-04-2007, 12:48 PM
Regarding the deck name... It's Goyf Sligh. Get over it. It is in fact a Sligh deck with Goyf splashed in. This is one case where the name is apt. Nobody complained when it was called Dryad Sligh.

kicks_422
11-04-2007, 06:07 PM
Because people don't understand "Sligh" at all.

small, efficient beaters and burn spells, nothing more = Sligh
same as above, but with a bigger focus on creatures, usually with Jitte = RG Beats
Tangle Wires, Wasteland, Ports, LD = RDW
Jitte, bigger creatures = (Zilla) Stompy

For example, the deck Barook posted above would be RG beats, because it only has 14 burn spells - 3 of which can only target players.

Wallace
11-05-2007, 02:17 AM
So I made top 8 on day 2 of TMLO with the following list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Dark Confidant

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
3 Tarfire
3 Fireblast
2 Seal of Fire
2 Pyrite Spellbomb

4 Taiga
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
4 Duress
4 Price of Progress
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Krosan Grip
2 Seal of Primordium

I lost a close Thresh match up and to Goblins in the top 8. Fireblast or POP off the top and I win the top 8 match. I beat Enchantress, Elves, Thresh w/scepter, Landstill and drew with Tarmo Sligh to make top 8.

The deck played wery well and both matches I lost were close, any burn spell off the top and I win game two against the Thresh player. I am going to drop Quirion Dryad from my build. Was not impressed with it at all, always wanted it to be something else.

aisman132000
11-05-2007, 02:59 AM
is kird ape really not good enough to make this deck? i mean he's got to be better than lava dart, tar fire, pyrite spell bomb and all the other janky burn spells that people are trying to play just to make goyf a little bit bigger.

Could wild mongrel find a place in this deck instead of dryad? he seems pretty good as he lets you force through some damage and is a solid top deck unlike dryad.

Also i love Engineered explosives out of the sb. in general.

kicks_422
11-05-2007, 07:18 AM
Congrats Sacearuse.

As for Dryad, I have to agree that her days in this deck have already passed by - ever since Goyf came into the picture. Maybe you could just drop her for more burn, or Kird Ape I guess.

Let me ask you though... You splashed black for Dark Confidant, and only him? I mean, not even any black cards in the SB to help against combo...

EDIT: Oh, and Lava Spikes? SRSLY?

EDIT2: Slith Firewalkers over Quirion Dryads?

kabal
11-05-2007, 11:25 AM
So I made top 8 on day 2 of TMLO with the following list:

Why no Magma Jet?

Anyhow, apparently you didn't encounter CotV all day which would pretty much own this deck.

FakeSpam
11-05-2007, 12:11 PM
Part of the reason you were so unimpressed with dryad might have been the lack of synergy with the rest of the deck. Don't get me wrong, congratulations, etc.

First, the lack of Lava Dart. It's utility has been beaten to death in the thread already and is pretty much an auto-include with dryad. The damage that you lose over say, Lava Spike, you pick up in versatility and the fact that it's +2/+2 to the dryad.

Second, Pyrite Spellbomb isn't red.

Third, That's a lot of sub-par shocks. I mean, a big Goyf is cool and all, but you are the one making your deck crappy to make it bigger. Not your opponent. Couldn't find room for a plainswalker?

I have to say, though, splashing black for Bob is drop dead sexy.

Wallace
11-05-2007, 12:30 PM
Congrats Sacearuse.

As for Dryad, I have to agree that her days in this deck have already passed by - ever since Goyf came into the picture. Maybe you could just drop her for more burn, or Kird Ape I guess.

Let me ask you though... You splashed black for Dark Confidant, and only him? I mean, not even any black cards in the SB to help against combo...

EDIT: Oh, and Lava Spikes? SRSLY?

EDIT2: Slith Firewalkers over Quirion Dryads?

It was late last night when I posted this list, I have updated the SB. I ran 4 x Duress in the SB. I really like Lava Spike, it was amazing for me. I will be running all 16 :r: for 3 damage burn spells in the next build. Starting my opponent off at 17 almost evey game was sweet, having them at 11 by the start of turn 3 made my Goyf's and Lavamancer's job's alot easier.


Part of the reason you were so unimpressed with dryad might have been the lack of synergy with the rest of the deck. Don't get me wrong, congratulations, etc.

First, the lack of Lava Dart. It's utility has been beaten to death in the thread already and is pretty much an auto-include with dryad. The damage that you lose over say, Lava Spike, you pick up in versatility and the fact that it's +2/+2 to the dryad.

Second, Pyrite Spellbomb isn't red.

Third, That's a lot of sub-par shocks. I mean, a big Goyf is cool and all, but you are the one making your deck crappy to make it bigger. Not your opponent. Couldn't find room for a plainswalker?

I have to say, though, splashing black for Bob is drop dead sexy.

I ran the spell bombs to get through Silver Knight or Soltari Priest, they also help with CoP red. I will be updateing the list for the next event I play in. I am going to be droping Dryad and some of the other burn. I will be running Rift bolt and ?? in the open slots. Dyrad was ok, but it depended to much on your hand being full of cards to pump it. Every time I drew Dryad I wished it was something else. I do see the synergy beween dart and Dyrad, I love running fireblast and don't think the deck can support both.

Watcher487
11-05-2007, 03:27 PM
OK, I guess I'll just post my list and things I saw....

4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Dart
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
2 Fireblast
2 Lava Spike
2 Needle Drop

1 Forest
8 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Stomping Ground
3 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills

Yes.. this is what I T16'd and T8'd with over the weekend. Let me explain a couple of things, I decided to play here.

4 Keldon Marauders- I know this is something that some people might have a problem with off of the bat. It's not something you would normally expect but it is a very nice card considering what I expected from the meta (the meta wasn't even close to what I expected, but the Marauders worked out amazing). Marauders block and run through threshed Mongeese, while dealing at least 2 damage even if they plow him.

4 Fetches- Yeah yell at me. I ran into color screw 4 times in the tournies. It sucked. I'm adding 3-4 more when I get them.

2 Needle Drop- Something suggested by Sacearuse, it actually worked out ok, especially with dealing with opposing Goyfs, or needing to pump up Dryad.

4 Lava Dart + 2 Fireblast- With alot of the Aggro-Control floating around last weekend, I literally didn't even cast alt cast Fireblast. I hard casted Fireblast to break a standstill vs URABAHN, to make him discard 3 cards. I'm actually thinking about ditching Fireblast for more smaller end burn.

0 Grim Lavamancers- I really think he is just as vunerable as Dark Confidant and since he has to use mana and tap to deal damage, I thought Kird Ape would be better in that slot.

Wallace
11-05-2007, 04:16 PM
First off Watcher, fuck yeah Goyf Sligh. Our decks used two diffrent builds, but played very similiar. While I included Lavamancer and Dark Confidant you went with Kird Ape and Keldon Marauders. The Lavamancers are a must in my book, they were always good and never once did they hurt my Tarmogoyf's p/t. I really like Fireblast in this deck, it is an amazing finisher and a great response to wasteland. Lava dart seemed really good when I was watching your matches but I would rather play a :r: for 3 damage spell. I would really suggest bringing your fetch count to 8, they thin out the deck and give you the color/color's you need. Plus a higher fetch count feeds Lavamancer, if you are running them. All in all we both had a great showing and helped secure Goyf Sligh as a DTB for another month.

Congrats on the Top 8 man.

Afro
11-05-2007, 04:22 PM
I'm glad to see this deck is doing well. Both myself and P_R have played this deck to some success in recent Mass tournies so I think I can chime in on some thoughts.

1) Dryad does not belong in this deck at all. Too slow in this format if you ask me and eats a plow or other removal the second it hits the table. I don't want to play a card simply to eat plows or other removal before I drop the Goyf.

2) I can't argue with results, but I can say that a R/G/r build severely weakens the main deck in the current environment. A black splash simply isn't worth just Dark Confidant. You run the risk of taking six off a Fireblast (or you could not run it MD, which is a mistake) and moves PoP to the board which I would NEVER do because it is the best card in the deck. Better than bolt, better than goyf, this card just wins you the game when it isn't countered. If you play smart, often it won't be.

3) Magma jet is an auto include. 3rd best burn in the deck behind PoP and Bolt. As for stuff like Seal and Pyrite.... I play 3 Seal in my deck. I like the fact that when I have no 1cc critter I can drop this 1st turn and keep the good stuff for later. Pyrite is totally playable if your meta is full of Silver Knights as Silver Knight + Jitte = GFG.

I am not totally sold on Kird Apes in my build and might replace them with Marauders because I am falling in love with this card in T2. I also am considering running Tin Street Hooligans main as Jitte is a total pain in the ass . If they get one equipped swing through that can usually spell game.

Here is my current list:

Land: (20)

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain
1 Forest

Critters: (15)

4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Goyf

Titties (25)

4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
3 PoP
3 Seal

A straight black splash is going to be tested soon with Confidant instead of Goyf and either Sedge Troll or Ydwen Efreet in place of Fireblast as both plow through Thresh's Nimbles.

Watcher487
11-05-2007, 07:51 PM
1) Dryad does not belong in this deck at all. Too slow in this format if you ask me and eats a plow or other removal the second it hits the table. I don't want to play a card simply to eat plows or other removal before I drop the Goyf.

3) Magma jet is an auto include. 3rd best burn in the deck behind PoP and Bolt.

Ok, let me intro my theory for how I did over the weekend. Quirion Dryad was always, ALWAYS dropped turn 2 if I had that option. While, yes it's the weakest card off of a top deck, but it tested the waters and let me follow it with pressure like Goyf. I would rather have Dryad eat a plow than have a Goyf eat one, when I'm trying to win. And if my opponent wan't going to do anything about it, all of the cheap, but effective burn I run should make it a bigger threat than Goyf.

If you notice I'm not running any 2cc+ burn spells, this was a very key thing to making Dryad better. While yeah Price and Jet are amazing in thier owe right here, I would rather send more pressure than fix my top decks here.

Shriekmaw
11-05-2007, 08:57 PM
OK, I guess I'll just post my list and things I saw....

4 Keldon Marauders

2 Lava Spike
2 Needle Drop





I'm not a fan at all with Keldon Marauders in the deck, I would rather play Grim Lavamancer b/c he is so much better in almost any situation. I know you have to wait a turn to activate him, but he along can win you the game.

As for Needle Drop and Lava Spike, I would try to find better burn spells. Its great that they cost only 1 mana, but maximize damage is the key. I really like Incinerate in the spot of Needle Drop, and as for Lava Spike I would play Tar Fire b/c of the synergy with Goyf and the instant cast speed.

I've never played this deck, but I've played decks very close to this and I do understand the card interactions very well. Tell me what you think?

bigbear102
11-05-2007, 08:57 PM
On the name issue, the reason it is Goyf sligh is because it didn't make DTB as RGbeats, or any other name for that matter. Goyf made the deck good enough to make top 8's again, so that's why it's goyf slight. Deal with it.

Watcher: I can agree w/ the no magma jet, but no pop in this meta is just wrong. It wins games when you draw it. 43 land, landstill, and several other decks are auto-wins when you drop it.

I haven't tested Dryad/no dryad yet, but preliminary i would say that it is pretty fragile, but at the same time i don't think i would play lavamancer either.

kabal
11-05-2007, 09:08 PM
Ok, let me intro my theory for how I did over the weekend. Quirion Dryad was always, ALWAYS dropped turn 2 if I had that option. While, yes it's the weakest card off of a top deck, but it tested the waters and let me follow it with pressure like Goyf. I would rather have Dryad eat a plow than have a Goyf eat one, when I'm trying to win. And if my opponent wan't going to do anything about it, all of the cheap, but effective burn I run should make it a bigger threat than Goyf.

If you notice I'm not running any 2cc+ burn spells, this was a very key thing to making Dryad better. While yeah Price and Jet are amazing in thier owe right here, I would rather send more pressure than fix my top decks here.

What about Vinelasher Kudzu and possible Life of the Loam

Wallace
11-05-2007, 09:10 PM
What about Vinelasher Kudzu and possible Life of the Loam

No! Vinelasher is even more fragile than Dryad and won't grow nearly as fast.

aisman132000
11-05-2007, 09:47 PM
lava spike? needle drop? really? I feel like magma jet is way better than both of those cards. magma jet helps prevent you from topdecking a dryad at a bad time or drawing your second fireblast that you may/may not be able to caste.

Also no grim lavamancer? grim is so good in this deck as you have plenty of burn to keep him fed. At the very least he ensures that you will always win any goyf fights.

keldon marauders seems like an interesting card and might be worth looking at.

here is my deck list right now


Lands

4x Taiga
3x Mountain
2x Stomping ground
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills

Creatures

4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Kird Ape
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Quirion dryad/ Tin Street Hooligan/ Wild Mongrel/ keldon marauders/Scab clan Mauler

Spells

4x Lightning bolt
4x Chain lightning
4x Seal of Fire
4x Magma Jet
3x Fireblast

Side Board

4x Krosan Grip
4x tormod's crypt
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Engineered Explosives

I really like wasteland in this deck and i have found the slight disruption that it provides to be very valuable against combo as well as control decks. Turn 1 kird ape followed by another 1 cost guy and a wasteland gives you a huge amount of tempo. While this may be irrelevant, in the mirror wasteland seems good.


I'm testing out a couple of different creatures to replace dryad in this deck. Right now i favor wild mongrel as he's solid on his own and can help force through damage and speed up your clock. Also he can discard to surprise pump goyf which can be relevant on occasion.

Wallace
11-05-2007, 10:04 PM
Ok, what is everyone's problem with Lava Spike? Do you know how many times I drew a Lava Spike and wished it was something else? NEVER! Spike is three damage to the face, the fact that it can't damage creatures is irrelevant. Most of the Lightning Bolts I draw are just instant speed Spikes, rarely if ever do you point any of your burn spells at a creature. Goblin Lacky is the only creature I burned out all day, and that was in the top 8. So stop hateing on Lava Spike, its a fine burn spell and does exactly what it was designed to do, 3 to the face!!!

@ aisman132000

That list is ok but you really only need 18 land. Wasteland is really not needed and will really hurt your mana base. Running 21 land you will find youself drawing 4 and 5 land a game, when you really only need 2-3. Magma Jet is ok but is not needed, if you want a :1::r: spell run incinerate because it does 3 damage. I really like the 18 creature/24 Burn/18 land build, give it a try, you will like it too.

Peter_Rotten
11-05-2007, 10:07 PM
KeldoM is a beast in Type 2. Never forget to have him do his "job" - and it's a big job. That job is to deal 5 damage. That being said and done, I'm not so sure how realiably he can accomplish that job in Legacy, which is such a creature hating format.

ClearSkies
11-05-2007, 10:11 PM
That list is ok but you really only need 18 land. Wasteland is really not needed and will really hurt your mana base. Running 21 land you will find youself drawing 4 and 5 land a game, when you really only need 2-3. Magma Jet is ok but is not needed, if you want a :1::r: spell run incinerate because it does 3 damage. I really like the 18 creature/24 Burn/18 land build, give it a try, you will like it too.

But for the same :1::r: mana, Price of Progress can win you the game against nonbasic land users. o_O

It would seem like Price of Progress is a nice choice here... compared to maybe Lava Spike or Incinerate.

Wallace
11-05-2007, 10:14 PM
But for the same :1::r: mana, Price of Progress can win you the game against nonbasic land users. o_O

It would seem like Price of Progress is a nice choice here... compared to maybe Lava Spike or Incinerate.


I play POP and Lava Spike, I know how good POP is. I did 14 on the 3rd turn against 43lands and it won me 3 out of 4 games at TMLO III. Price is not in question here.

Happy Gilmore
11-05-2007, 10:23 PM
Without a splash I cannot see this deck winning consistently against combo. That is my A#1 qualm with this strategy. Alot has been said about the Black splash but why not white?


19 Lands

5 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plateau

18 Creatures

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Quiron Dryad
2 Kird Ape

Spells: 23

3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Seal of Fire
3 Lava Dart
3 Magma Jet
3 Reckless Charge

SB:
4 Orim's Chant
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Krosan Grip
3 Ancient Grudge (Why has no one included this amazing card? It rapes chalice agro which this deck loses hard core to.)


With the Black Splash I could actually see including Thoughtseize main deck, to both address combo and CB/Top.

from Cairo
11-05-2007, 11:02 PM
I still think Price of Progress is greater than Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant... Not to mention that 3 color opens you up to the Thresh builds running Wasteland + Stifle. The deck has pretty solid threat density to begin with so while drawing two cards a turn is busted as hell, it's not like the deck is in a horrible spot in top deck mode cause most of it's non-land is burn.

bigbear102
11-06-2007, 09:18 AM
A white splash isn't good in this deck because it has to be reactive. You don't want to sit on the white mana when you could be burning people. With discard you throw it out there whenever and then continue your strategy. White makes you play reactively which this deck does not want to do.

Iranon
11-06-2007, 10:11 AM
KeldoM is a beast in Type 2. Never forget to have him do his "job" - and it's a big job. That job is to deal 5 damage. That being said and done, I'm not so sure how realiably he can accomplish that job in Legacy, which is such a creature hating format.

Is this a problem? If he chumps a 'Goyf and prevents a few weenies from joining in for a turn, he pulls his weight in the damage race.
1r: draw out a Bolt, deal 2 damage to target player is also not exactly horrible.
I consider him to be the best thing I don't actually run at the moment.

Wallace
11-06-2007, 11:51 AM
Is this a problem? If he chumps a 'Goyf and prevents a few weenies from joining in for a turn, he pulls his weight in the damage race.
1r: draw out a Bolt, deal 2 damage to target player is also not exactly horrible.
I consider him to be the best thing I don't actually run at the moment.

While I agree Keldon Marauders is a good man, I don't think he belongs in this deck. I watched Watcher487 pilot his Goyf Sligh deck and he runs KM's, they were nice if he drew them on turn 2 but after that they just ok. I think this is the same reason this deck doesn't run Spark Elemental.

lukatron2
11-06-2007, 12:26 PM
I've been testing and wondered if anyone else thinks that 4 grim lavamancers is too much? (I see a couple of lists running 3 instead).

Also, Has anyone ran into major problems with counterbalance lately? I say this because there are more and more thresh decks and other decks that have it in the mainboard, and if not, it almost always is in the sideboard. This card OWNS our deck.

Magma Jet has been pretty hot for me in testing. How about everyone else? Also, 1-2 Final Fortune has been pretty righteous.

Peter_Rotten
11-06-2007, 12:59 PM
Also, Has anyone ran into major problems with counterbalance lately? I say this because there are more and more thresh decks and other decks that have it in the mainboard, and if not, it almost always is in the sideboard. This card OWNS our deck.


Mandatory SB Cards
Krosan Grip – You must have a way to deal CounterTop and Jitte. I’d run Naturlize but it doesn’t have Split Second, now does it?

Once again, I'll promote Grip as a mandatory addition to the SB.

lukatron2
11-06-2007, 01:03 PM
Once again, I'll promote Grip as a mandatory addition to the SB.

No question there, I ALWAYS have 3 to 4 Krosan Grip in the SB, But what I'm asking is if anyone has had a big problem with Counterbalance game 1, or just not drawing into a Grip on games 2 & 3.

aisman132000
11-06-2007, 01:53 PM
I think Krosan Grip is pretty much our best/only answer to Counterbalance. The only alternative would be to play more expensive spells (which is obviously a bad call) or maybe also play EE in the sb which i and i believe volt advocate.

As far as lavamancer is concerned he is an automatic 4 of in my book. Honestly i can't understand why you would only play three. On his own he's a great threat that if let unchecked is good for 4-6 per game, clears blockers, and ensures you win every goyf fight. the downside is he's fragile which is why you should play 4 because the first one is usually answered.

A card that i'm testing out and others have mentioned before is lava dart. In my testing 4 lava dart and 3 fireblast has not put too much strain on the mana base with 18 lands and i have never failed to flashback lava dart or cast fireblast when i wanted to. Lava dart is obviously amazing with dryad but also one lava dart pretty much means that you'll win all of the goyf fights for the game. It seems good to me.

Wallace
11-06-2007, 03:18 PM
I have cut Lavamancer to 3 in my build. I am tiard of drawing 2 or 3 of them and sitting on 2 or 3 1/1 for :r:. I played through counterbalance on 3 diff. occasions, its tough but still winable. You really need to time your spells right, bait them to tap out then Drop a Goyf or a Big Price of Progress ftw. One match I was down to my last turn and my opponent had CB out, he was forced to tap out on his turn with a mystery card on top of his libary. I am holding 2 x Price of progress and he was at 12 w/ 3 non-basics out. I Price of Progressed him out when he fliped a land w/ the Counterbalance. I run 2 x Grip and 2 x Seal of Primordium in the board. iam thinking of running Hullbreach but don'y know yet.

Peter_Rotten
11-06-2007, 03:21 PM
Hullbreach is a friggin' sorcery, isn't it? I'd hate to deal with that. I want my Art/Enchant destruction to be intant speed. And, btw, uncounterable.

Wallace
11-06-2007, 03:27 PM
Hullbreach is a friggin' sorcery, isn't it? I'd hate to deal with that. I want my Art/Enchant destruction to be intant speed. And, btw, uncounterable.

I would still run Grip, I was talking about Hullbreach in place of Seal. Trust me I know that grip is the nuts.

Afro
11-06-2007, 03:31 PM
I have cut Lavamancer to 3 in my build. I am tiard of drawing 2 or 3 of them and sitting on 2 or 3 1/1 for :r:. I played through counterbalance on 3 diff. occasions, its tough but still winable. You really need to time your spells right, bait them to tap out then Drop a Goyf or a Big Price of Progress ftw. One match I was down to my last turn and my opponent had CB out, he was forced to tap out on his turn with a mystery card on top of his libary. I am holding 2 x Price of progress and he was at 12 w/ 3 non-basics out. I Price of Progressed him out when he fliped a land w/ the Counterbalance. I run 2 x Grip and 2 x Seal of Primordium in the board. iam thinking of running Hullbreach but don'y know yet.

Heres the thing a straight counterbalance you can get through, but if they team that up with a Top that = gfg. A good player will never tap out and just sit on mana till he has enough to drop a threat with mana left for the top. This is a becoming a real problem as more thresh builds are running the combo main instead of in the board so game one you won't have grip to save your ass.

Wallace
11-07-2007, 07:57 PM
So I am looking at my build for This weekend and need to find a replacement for Dryad. I think I am going to go with Nimble Mongoose, I think he will be an inprovment over Dryad. I play 8 fetch's and sould have no problem hitting threshhold. The only thing I worrie about is the interaction of Goose and Lavamancer, so Iguess my question is do I go with Goose and Kird Ape or Lavamancer and Kird Ape? Is there another Creature I can use insted of Ape, I really want to run Lavamancer so if I can avoid cutting him, that would be great.

lukatron2
11-07-2007, 08:48 PM
So I am looking at my build for This weekend and need to find a replacement for Dryad. I think I am going to go with Nimble Mongoose, I think he will be an inprovment over Dryad. I play 8 fetch's and sould have no problem hitting threshhold. The only thing I worrie about is the interaction of Goose and Lavamancer, so Iguess my question is do I go with Goose and Kird Ape or Lavamancer and Kird Ape? Is there another Creature I can use insted of Ape, I really want to run Lavamancer so if I can avoid cutting him, that would be great.

You could run Slith Firewalker. He has the potential to get huge and burn to clear the way for him. Geese are great in the sense that they cant be targeted, but they take time to get big, and when they do, they are only a 3/3 which isn't too hard to take out. Like people are going to say, the object of this deck is to win as fast as possible, and Geese don't do a good job of this. Also many people advocate Lavamancers as a VERY important part of the deck and Geese with Mancers=Really crappy...Firewalkers are what used to be ran along with dryad before goyf was printed. Personally I think Dryad (with lava darts) is the way to go. Firewalkers are pretty badass too though. It would be interesting to see how they do in place of dryad.

Wallace
11-07-2007, 09:08 PM
@lukatron2

If you look back a few posts you will see that I am not running Lava Dart and I am looking for a replacement for Dryad. Firewalker seems ok and I will test it.

aisman132000
11-07-2007, 09:09 PM
go with lavamancer and kird ape. in this deck nimble mongoose won't hit threshold till turn 4 at the earliest. Also it obviously has terrible synergy with grim lavamancer. kird ape lets you apply early pressure and he's a solid beater. Honestly i can't believe that some people don't play him.

Soto
11-07-2007, 10:18 PM
What about Rogue Elephant. Obviously not an excellent turn one play, but since you aren't running 8 sacrifice mountain effects, and the deck runs on 1-2 lands, i think you can spare the forest(taiga).

Wallace
11-07-2007, 10:22 PM
What about Rogue Elephant. Obviously not an excellent turn one play, but since you aren't running 8 sacrifice mountain effects, and the deck runs on 1-2 lands, i think you can spare the forest(taiga).

Bad idea simply because I am only running 4 green sources. I am running 4 fireblasts so I do need some land on the table. Elephant = Bad Idea

lukatron2
11-07-2007, 10:39 PM
@lukatron2

If you look back a few posts you will see that I am not running Lava Dart and I am looking for a replacement for Dryad.

I know you aren't, I was sorta trying to hint that the reason why you may have been so unimpressed by Dryad was the fact that you aren't running lava dart. you should test Lava Dart with dryad before you make the cut. It's a flexible burn spell which just happens to add like tons of synergy and makes her like 10x better.

Anyhow let us know how Firewalker works out if you don't test lava dart w/dryad. ohh yea and I say lavamancer with kird ape.

On another note, has anyone considered Fork in the sb or main?

aisman132000
11-08-2007, 02:44 AM
fork is an interesting card but what match up would you need fork for? i don't think its really worth a spot in my opinion.

Oh yeah i second the lava dart with dryad.

enemyofarsenic
11-08-2007, 04:36 AM
"So I am looking at my build for This weekend and need to find a replacement for Dryad. I think I am going to go with Nimble Mongoose, I think he will be an inprovment over Dryad. I play 8 fetch's and sould have no problem hitting threshhold. The only thing I worrie about is the interaction of Goose and Lavamancer, so Iguess my question is do I go with Goose and Kird Ape or Lavamancer and Kird Ape? Is there another Creature I can use insted of Ape, I really want to run Lavamancer so if I can avoid cutting him, that would be great."

- you could use wild mongrels (pumps & dodges protection creatures) or blood knights (1st strike & stp proof) =]

- also, blood knight plus burn can sometimes bring down a big creature =]

Wallace
11-08-2007, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by Sacearuse "So I am looking at my build for This weekend and need to find a replacement for Dryad. I think I am going to go with Nimble Mongoose, I think he will be an inprovment over Dryad. I play 8 fetch's and sould have no problem hitting threshhold. The only thing I worrie about is the interaction of Goose and Lavamancer, so Iguess my question is do I go with Goose and Kird Ape or Lavamancer and Kird Ape? Is there another Creature I can use insted of Ape, I really want to run Lavamancer so if I can avoid cutting him, that would be great."

- you could use wild mongrels (pumps & dodges protection creatures) or blood knights (1st strike & stp proof) =]

- also, blood knight plus burn can sometimes bring down a big creature =]

I really don't worrie about Blood Knight in my meta and Mongrel is a horrible choice due to the fact that I rarly if ever have more than one card in my hand. When I do have a card in my hand it's most likly a Fireblast and I don't want to pitch that to Mongrel.

lukatron2
11-08-2007, 11:52 AM
fork is an interesting card but what match up would you need fork for? i don't think its really worth a spot in my opinion.


Some things I was considering when thinking about fork were:

Pros:
Its versatile: It copies fireblast/PoP or other burn spells for only RR
It can act as a counterspell against control or aggro/control

Cons:
Its dead by itself
it costs RR

I'm not sure if it should be included or not but I just wanted to bring it up for testing and to see what you guys think cause it seems really good and is very versatile/ has a relatively cheap cost.

On another note, I think blood knight or slith firewalker are the two best after dryad

Barook
11-08-2007, 02:27 PM
Mongrel is a whorable choice
:confused:

I think that Blood Knight is pretty good here because he's able to take down Goyf when combined with Instant speed burn.
Slith Firewalker has a higher potential damage output, but he also has to have a cleared path which is not always a given, especially when played on T2.

Wallace
11-08-2007, 04:46 PM
:confused:

I think that Blood Knight is pretty good here because he's able to take down Goyf when combined with Instant speed burn.
Slith Firewalker has a higher potential damage output, but he also has to have a cleared path which is not always a given, especially when played on T2.

I may just go with Blood Knight, STP = Bad vs. Blood Knight. STP is big in my meta, a 2/2 for :r::r: is ntb. The other choice I have is Tin Street, I had to scoop it up twice, to Chalice for 1. :frown:

lukatron2
11-08-2007, 04:54 PM
I may just go with Blood Knight, STP = Bad vs. Blood Knight. STP is big in my meta, a 2/2 for :r::r: is ntb. The other choice I have is Tin Street, I had to scoop it up twice to Chalice for 1. :frown:

I played a full set of tin streets in my R/G beats one tournament and I was really impressed on how many occasions it swung the game in my favor...It solves a lot of big problems this deck can have (challice, jitte) and can give you a fighting chance against stax in some cases.

kicks_422
11-08-2007, 05:41 PM
Slith Firewalker has a higher potential damage output, but he also has to have a cleared path which is not always a given, especially when played on T2.

When I played Firewalker, I noticed two things
1. If the board isn't clear on Turn 2 for it to hit, that means the deck that you're playing against is a good match-up for you.
2. In games where it hits on Turn 2, Firewalker is a godsend.

Back when my Dryad Sligh had a "growth" theme to it with both Dryad and Firewalker, it was great at applying tons of pressure. I think if you're replacing Dryads, you'll want to check Slith out first.

aisman132000
11-09-2007, 07:43 PM
Is it safe to say that everyone agrees that this deck should play 20 creatures? it seems as though that 16 of those are pretty set in stone being mogg fanatic, grim lavamancer, tarmogoyf and kird ape (but i could be wrong). If so it might be useful to list out possible creatures for the last 4 slots.

Quirion Dryad

Pros: if left unchecked will become a huge threat

Cons: its still a 1/1 for two and an awful top deck

Wild mongrel

Pros: 2/2 with a great ability. Useful for through damage and can pitch dead fireblasts and extra land for more damage.

Cons: Obviously he's not great when you have a grip full of gas

Scab-Clan Mauler

Pros: the only watchwolf that r/g can play. He's really not that hard to set up especially if you're playing seal of fire.

Cons: like dryad he's a potential 1/1 for two top deck

Tin Street Hooligan

Pros: a decent beater and he can break vials, jittes and all kinds of good stuff

Cons: When i play with this guy i never know if i should play him to add pressure to the board or save him so he can break something

Blood Knight

Pros: Pro white, first strike. fights white splash threshold decks pretty well, if you get two of these guys in play they pretty much can't attack profitably.

Cons: he'll never do anything else than beat down. In matchups where his pro white doesn't matter he's really mediocre,

Slith Firewalker

Pros: Your burn can keep the way clear for him and he'll continue to get bigger and bigger.

Cons: he's still a pretty bad top deck. also this format can handle a 1/1 for 1 so i'm not so sure 1/1 for two is that good.

Keldon Marauders

Pros: 3/3 for two, this guy is pretty much a burn spell.

Cons: Just not sure this guy is good enough for legacy. two mana for five damage seems awesome but he has to get there first.

these are all the creatures that i could realisticly see playing. I guess you could play dark confidant but personally i'm not a fan of it. i don't think you want to stretch the mana base and i'm not sure if its worth it. any thoughts?

Seregrauko
11-10-2007, 11:18 AM
Couldn't we up the count on fetches?? Wooded and Heath + a good amount of Mountains and a little less Forests??

Something like:

4 Wooded
4 Heath
4 Taiga
4 Mountain
3 Forest

And then drop in 4 Magus of the Moon?? It seems like a REALLY strong beater. And it's a MUST remove spell vs. alot of decks.
Furthermore I think PoP is mandatory. It's the best "dome-damage" spell in Legacy!

Just a thought..

kicks_422
11-11-2007, 01:54 AM
Wild mongrel

Pros: 2/2 with a great ability. Useful for through damage and can pitch dead fireblasts and extra land for more damage.

Cons: Obviously he's not great when you have a grip full of gas


Slith Firewalker

Pros: Your burn can keep the way clear for him and he'll continue to get bigger and bigger.

Cons: he's still a pretty bad top deck. also this format can handle a 1/1 for 1 so i'm not so sure 1/1 for two is that good.



On your example for Mongrel, why not just play the lands and Fireblasts instead of discarding to Mongrel? The whole purpose of the deck is to have not-dead cards all the time (hence why I find Lava Spikes iffy), so including Mongrel is kind of taking the deck to a wrong direction.

As for Firewalker, I can't count the times when I have my opponent at 1 when he clears my board with me having exhausted all the cards in hand... And then topdecking Slith to get that last point FTW... So it's not a bad topdeck at all. It grabs the game for you early if left unchecked (which would certainly be since they're aiming for your Goyfs most of the time) and can grab the win for you late game after both players exhausted their hands. And besides, the format isn't even afraid of a 2/3 for 1 anymore, so your "con" of it being a 1/1 that the format can handle is pretty moot.



Couldn't we up the count on fetches?? Wooded and Heath + a good amount of Mountains and a little less Forests??

Something like:

4 Wooded
4 Heath
4 Taiga
4 Mountain
3 Forest

And then drop in 4 Magus of the Moon?? It seems like a REALLY strong beater. And it's a MUST remove spell vs. alot of decks.

It's a REALLY strong disruption piece, not a beater. If the deck didn't require such a low land-count itself, it would at least deserve testing. I think it's better in R/G mid-range aggro (e.g. Zilla Stompy) and in Red Chalice Aggro (e.g. Dragon Stompy) than in lightning quick Sligh.

godryk
11-11-2007, 06:15 AM
As for Firewalker, I can't count the times when I have my opponent at 1 when he clears my board with me having exhausted all the cards in hand... And then topdecking Slith to get that last point FTW... So it's not a bad topdeck at all. It grabs the game for you early if left unchecked (which would certainly be since they're aiming for your Goyfs most of the time) and can grab the win for you late game after both players exhausted their hands. And besides, the format isn't even afraid of a 2/3 for 1 anymore, so your "con" of it being a 1/1 that the format can handle is pretty moot.

I don't understand why slith firewalker is better than Quirion Dryad. Of course it has haste and you can deal one entra damage FTW, but besides that, Quirion will grow more easily, of course you can clear the way so Firewalker can hit and THEN grow, but I feel it's better to send damage to the opponent, feed the dryad and THEN attack.

I feel that Keldon Marauders will be a simillar topdeck, dealing that damage, and probable dealing 3 next turn, and then one more...

Just some thoughts, I'm not an expert...

kicks_422
11-11-2007, 07:50 AM
I never said it's better than Dryad - it's a suitable replacement for it. The advantages one has over the other is pretty slim though (e.g. Slith grows even when you don't cast spells if you have an empty hand, for example).

Keldon Marauders might be good, but I think you should keep pressure on the table longer, not for just a couple of turns. But if you treat it as a burn spell that can deals 5 over time and can absorb damage for you if needed rather than a creature, that's another thing altogether

aisman132000
11-11-2007, 04:08 PM
@ kicks

There are times when you have two fireblasts in hand with only two maybe three lands in play. Or when your mana flooded and have maybe five or so lands . In these situations being able to pitch cards to mongrel seems pretty good. I have always liked him in this style of deck

Slith Firewalker really doesn't seem optimal to me but that's just my opinion. Honestly i haven't had that good an experience playing this guy but that's just me. I know you like him from what you've said in the dryad sligh thread and i don't wan't this discussion to degenerate into another scab-clan mauler/blood knight/ wild mongrel vs. Slith firewalker. All i have to say is that Slith saw some play in t2 but not much else while mongrel has seen play in a variety of extended threat decks like gaea's might get there, and aggro flow. It would seem that in general wild mongrel is the better card in this style decks. I say this knowing i'll probably be flamed with a variety of Legacy is not extended posts but out of all the formats extended is the one closest in power level to legacy. if slith doesn't cut it in extended then i don't think he's good enough for legacy.

kicks_422
11-11-2007, 04:29 PM
But how often would Wild Mongrel be bigger than 3/3? I'd play Dryad instead of Mongrel if that's the case, since you'll be more often casting spells than discarding lands (unless you're really lucky to draw 10 lands in a row).

EDIT: I've always thought of Legacy as a watered-down version of Vintage. Proof? R/G Beats won Day 2 of SCG Chicago, over a myriad of Gush decks.

aisman132000
11-11-2007, 11:16 PM
what? A r/g beats deck won a T1 tournament? I'm very interested to see that list.

As to wild mongrel vs. dryad, i like mongrel better personally. Dryad is a little to hit/miss for me while wild mongrel is more consistent in my opinion. Sometimes its awesome and other times it is really, really mediocre. Having played with both i can understand why people like dryad but that's just my opinion.

WiLdFiRe
11-11-2007, 11:30 PM
Apparently the R/G Beats deck was insanely metagamed, so probably isn't very relevant to this deck.

Slay
11-11-2007, 11:40 PM
You guys really need to stop debating putting bad creatures in your decks like Dryad and Mongrel and Slith and put in more burn. Burn makes this deck competitive, it gives you inevitability against everything except Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. The creatures just sit there doing nothing, they could be dealing 3 damage to the opponent without having to worry about whether or not they'll get killed. This is a variant of burn, not a variant of R/G beats. The creatures are only in this deck because they're really, really good and always better than another burn spell to the face.
-Slay

kicks_422
11-12-2007, 06:08 AM
Yeah, I guess it's time to just scrap the idea of adding a 5th creature to the deck. The 18/16/26 ratio of lands, creatures, and burn is possibly the best one as of right now.

The Marco
11-12-2007, 11:55 AM
I kind of agree the debate is getting old, however I was a dryad sligh player for a long time and the Firewalker has always been a house. The dryad as well. The problem is that these two cards, especially the dryad, force you to play the deck in a certain way, with a certain tempo either to clear the way for slith or to grow your Dryad...as well as being horrible top decks past turn three or four.

More burn is probably the way to go, but I gotta say that I tested main deck Tin street and they are very good (not a four of for sure...but two main).
Ok I'm gonna go on with a crazy idea that I had, it's probably not that great but I haven't tested it yet so comments are welcomed. How about playin two Ohran viper and two Tin streer as our 5 and 6 creatures. The viper is an answer to opposing Goyf so we don't have to go 2 for 1 (two cards for one) and to kill silver knight. It can also draw you a card or two if the game reaches late game (it happens trust me). The casting cost is probable too steep but we still play Krosan grip...anyway what do you think??

Wallace
11-12-2007, 03:17 PM
You guys really need to stop debating putting bad creatures in your decks like Dryad and Mongrel and Slith and put in more burn. Burn makes this deck competitive, it gives you inevitability against everything except Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. The creatures just sit there doing nothing, they could be dealing 3 damage to the opponent without having to worry about whether or not they'll get killed. This is a variant of burn, not a variant of R/G beats. The creatures are only in this deck because they're really, really good and always better than another burn spell to the face.
-Slay

Thank you to the man with the Pink Name!!! I ran Goyf Sligh both days this week end in Syracuse and wish I had more burn both days!!! The only creatures that were good in the deck were, suprise, suprise, Tarmogoyf and Lavamancer. Mogg Fanatic did his job and was fine too. I am really going to look at a diffrent build for the next event.

lukatron2
11-12-2007, 07:33 PM
You guys really need to stop debating putting bad creatures in your decks like Dryad and Mongrel and Slith and put in more burn. Burn makes this deck competitive, it gives you inevitability against everything except Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance.

Thats why I think that dryad is so good in this deck. its another fatty that competes (and often times outclasses) Tarmogoyf. SURE you have to invest burn into it, but thats what you're doing anyhow, but with Dryad, you're just making an "investment" into a potentially gigantic creature.



This is a variant of burn, not a variant of R/G beats. The creatures are only in this deck because they're really, really good and always better than another burn spell to the face.

Check out the first page on this thread look at the top where it says "Goyf Sligh (r/g beats)"

I guess it depends on the build though. A build that runs 16 or more creatures (If one is kird ape or a green creature other than tarmogoyf) I would definitely consider it R/G beats...the other versions that run mostly burn you're partially right....:p

godryk
11-13-2007, 10:27 AM
I know it's been a little discused before, but I'm still thinking about Magus of the Moon, which simply destroys most of control decks and many combo, as well as hurting Threshold, specially when unexpected. It may be a little overcosted, but it deserves some mention as the 3rd/4th creature, maybe as a 2 of.

Anyway, I agree, we must keep only the real useful creatures, and let the rest become burn...

mmmetaphor
11-13-2007, 10:31 AM
As far as the creature debate goes, I prefer running:

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Kird Ape
4x Tarmogoyf

in a deck list of:

8x Baubles
4x Magma Jet
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Fireblast
3x Price of Progress
4x Seal of Fire
4x Chain Lightning

18x Land

It seems creature light but it actually works quite well with all the baubles and scry from magma jet. Mog Fanatic, although a nice meta choice, is just to weak of a beater for me to include and lavamancers anti-synergy with goyf always bothers me. With him gone and 8 main deck baubles, nimble mongoose is a perfect fit.

Wallace
11-13-2007, 11:45 AM
Ok man you need to go back a few pages and read up on the deck. Mongoose is not a good choice because he is only a 1/1 for the first few turns and Kird Ape is ok but wasteland will wreck your day. Tarmogoyf, Dryad, Mogg Fanatic and Grim Lavamancer are the only creatures that truely belong in this deck. I am cutting my creature count down to just 12, running a more burn heavy build.

mmmetaphor
11-13-2007, 11:54 AM
Ok man you need to go back a few pages and red up on the deck. Mongoose is not a good choice because he is only a 1/1 for the first few turns and Kird Ape is ok but wasteland will wreck your day. Tarmogoyf, Dryad, Mogg Fanatic and Grim Lavamancer are the only creatures that truely belong in this deck. I am cutting my creature count down to just 12, running a more burn heavy build.

OK man, I read the entire thread prior to posting. 8 Baubles along with 8 fetches insures a superfast thresh. I'm very happy with my assortment of creatures and wasteland hasn't affected me at all yet, I play 1 forest and 1 mountain main.

Maybe it's you who need to "red up" on my deck list.

Peter_Rotten
11-13-2007, 12:14 PM
Play nicely, boys. Don't turn this into flame war.

Wallace
11-13-2007, 02:58 PM
Play nicely, boys. Don't turn this into flame war.

PR I am just getting tiard of people just throwing up deck lists. I have made the top 8 two weeks in a row with this deck. People are just adding and subtracting cards at will, with no testing. Post some results with your lists people. Explain how your build is doing, don't just throw up a deck list or suggest a card because you think it might work, test it. Play the deck before you critique it. I am open to trying new things, in fact I have, I played 4 x Blood Knight (thanks for the idea Barook) in my build this week, it sucked, but I tried it.

The Marco
11-13-2007, 04:34 PM
PR I am just getting tiard of people just throwing up deck lists. I have made the top 8 two weeks in a row with this deck. People are just adding and subtracting cards at will, with no testing. Post some results with your lists people. Explain how your build is doing, don't just throw up a deck list or suggest a card because you think it might work, test it. Play the deck before you critique it. I am open to trying new things, in fact I have, I played 4 x Blood Knight (thanks for the idea Barook) in my build this week, it sucked, but I tried it.

And yet you played Bloodknight even if Barook suggested it without posting results or anything. Dude it's an open forum and for the deck to move forward we sometimes have to try out ideas that seems a little crazy (couples years ago people thought we were crazy for playing mental note in NQG)... I'm not saying that Mongoose with 8 bauble is good (in fact I don't think it is) but that is not the point, we just won't ever agree as to what 60 cards to put in the deck, it all depends on your play style and meta. Stay a little open minded, yes the deck is doing great at the moment but your meta will eventually catch up...you'll need to stay ahead of the curve if you want to keep winning. Just my 2 cent!

from Cairo
11-13-2007, 06:08 PM
Dude it's an open forum and for the deck to move forward we sometimes have to try out ideas that seems a little crazy... Stay a little open minded.

I agree people should be open minded and test out new ideas. But the same could be said toward the people posting the ideas, are they being tested before they're being suggested? I mean it's one thing in a "New and Developemental Forums" to throw out an untested suggestion, on the hunch that it might be stronger, but I think the major complaints are that in the "Decks to Beat Forum" where tried and proven lists are being discussed there are also alot of what appear to be untested lists or atleast ones that are being posted, with no reference to how they placed or what match ups the new list helps to mitigate.

For example cutting Burn for bauble slow-trips seems pretty questionable, not nessicarily wrong, but hard to read why it would be the best move and adding a guy that thrives off the GY in a format that the GY is a primary target for SB hate seems also questionable. Maybe it would be a good direction for the deck, but without any explaination as to how it improves the deck it comes across as a blind suggestion.

kicks_422
11-13-2007, 07:48 PM
I agree people should be open minded and test out new ideas. But the same could be said toward the people posting the ideas, are they being tested before they're being suggested? I mean it's one thing in a "New and Developemental Forums" to throw out an untested suggestion, on the hunch that it might be stronger, but I think the major complaints are that in the "Decks to Beat Forum" where tried and proven lists are being discussed there are also alot of what appear to be untested lists or atleast ones that are being posted, with no reference to how they placed or what match ups the new list helps to mitigate.

True. Back when my original Dryad Sligh thread was in the N&D, nobody gave a damn about what everyone was saying. Now that it's in DTB, I think the deck structure is already pretty "optimized", and that the deck should build on the recent success that Sacearuse had. Any lists which deviate from the list too much should probably get a new thread in the N&D as well (lists with Magus of the Moon, Baubles, LD, etc.)

If only I were there and still had this deck built, I would be playing this in every tournament to help the thread out with results.

Anyway... Sacearuse, have you tried out Keldon Marauders in the Dryad slot? It IS technically a burn spell... The more I use it, the more intrigued I am by it. The deck has a healthy amount of burn spells anyway.

Wallace
11-13-2007, 08:12 PM
True. Back when my original Dryad Sligh thread was in the N&D, nobody gave a damn about what everyone was saying. Now that it's in DTB, I think the deck structure is already pretty "optimized", and that the deck should build on the recent success that Sacearuse had. Any lists which deviate from the list too much should probably get a new thread in the N&D as well (lists with Magus of the Moon, Baubles, LD, etc.)

If only I were there and still had this deck built, I would be playing this in every tournament to help the thread out with results.

Anyway... Sacearuse, have you tried out Keldon Marauders in the Dryad slot? It IS technically a burn spell... The more I use it, the more intrigued I am by it. The deck has a healthy amount of burn spells anyway.

I had every intention of adding KM's to the deck. I traded my foil ones in CT and sold all my bulk stuff to the local shop, so I threw in Blood Knight at the last min. Watcher tried them and they seemed to work, I think they will be a great addition to the deck.

Shriekmaw
11-13-2007, 09:50 PM
After looking at the different lists on Goyf Sligh, I believe it is best to go with a 16 count creature base. I think everyone will agree that Kird Ape and Tarmogoyf are worth to include. I think the other 2 slots should be Grim Lavamancer and Quirion Dryad. If you really don't like dryad in the deck, then maybe you should test out Burning-Tree Shaman. I know he is a 3 drop, but a 3/4 beater isn't all that bad to have on the table.

I think the creature base is what we seem not to be agreeing on. What do you think about Burning-Tree Shaman?

Wallace
11-13-2007, 09:54 PM
I think the creature base is what we seem not to be agreeing on. What do you think about Burning-Tree Shaman?

I think Shaman is worth testing, he is a 3/4 for :1::r::g:, thats not to bad. The 3cc might be hard to deal with consistently, running him as a 2 - 3 of would probably be best. I will give it a try and let you know how it works out.

The Marco
11-13-2007, 11:01 PM
BTS is a very decent creature that we tested back in the original Dryad sligh...the problem is that it is pretty much counter synergetic (shit thats a crazy word) with all the fetches, fanatic, lavamancer, seal... I'm mean he could be dealing more damages to you (a lot more)...I'm still testing 2 vipers...so far they seem a little slow but deal with opposing goyf and silver knight nicely! Just an idea...

FakeSpam
11-13-2007, 11:37 PM
Ok man you need to go back a few pages and read up on the deck. Mongoose is not a good choice because he is only a 1/1 for the first few turns and Kird Ape is ok but wasteland will wreck your day. Tarmogoyf, Dryad, Mogg Fanatic and Grim Lavamancer are the only creatures that truely belong in this deck. I am cutting my creature count down to just 12, running a more burn heavy build.

You seem to have issues with land a fair bit. At least, when you have them you are pretty vocal about it. I think part of the problem might be that you aren't running enough dudes. Creatures are more card and cost efficient than spells when it comes to damage. A constant, recurring bit of damage on the board will make the deck more consistant in the long run.



You know what answers silver knight? Fucking Tarmogoyf.

Watcher487
11-14-2007, 12:19 AM
You know what answers silver knight? Fucking Tarmogoyf.
QFT Folks. If your that worried about SKnight, then you shouldn't be playing w/ critters in the first place.

About the critters in the deck - My personal preference is to run somewhere between 16-18 critters (Mauraders I count as a burn spell since that's his job 6 out of 10 times). I still like Dryad in the deck since it's an early target for my opponent's removal, and we win Goyf on Goyf. BTS is not worth anyone's time unless your knee deep in a Survival/ D&T/ Goblins meta. You end up capping yourself too much vs Thresh and Combo with him (normally not a good thing). He worked in 4c 3deuce due to the fact the deck could just drop him before the opponent could do anything, while in this deck he comes down turn 3, if your lucky, and I would rather be casting burn to plow through stuff. Vipers sound nice but they also fall into that too little to late catergory. The deck should feature effecient cost-effective beaters and burn, w/ some to none fixings.

The Marco
11-14-2007, 12:26 AM
You seem to have issues with land a fair bit. At least, when you have them you are pretty vocal about it. I think part of the problem might be that you aren't running enough dudes. Creatures are more card and cost efficient than spells when it comes to damage. A constant, recurring bit of damage on the board will make the deck more consistant in the long run.



You know what answers silver knight? Fucking Tarmogoyf.

Right so I should always mulligan if I don't get goyf when playing against ww, fish or any random crap which packs silver knight, or should I count on all my cantrips to draw it when my oponent plays the said knight...damn this is not thresh Goyf alone might not be enough.

Nydaeli
11-14-2007, 03:09 AM
If you really need something that kills Silver Knight, Cursed Scroll and Pyrite Spellbomb are much more consistent with the deck's aims than Ohran Viper.

As far as permanent sources of damage go, there are a few decent noncreature options that are also worth discussing. Cursed Scroll is decent, as mentioned. Ankh of Mishra really punishes fetchlands, though it means you should minimize your own. Pyrostatic Pillar could be pretty interesting in the maindeck, since it's a big swing in some combo matchups and basically a big Flame Rift everywhere else. I'm not sure that any of these are better than creatures, but they should be tested. (Yes, I'll give them a shot too.)

kicks_422
11-14-2007, 06:18 AM
Why the hell are you worried about Silver Knights? He's just a fuckin' 2/2 that can't be burned. You should be worried about Jitte, which he already have Grips and/or Needles for.

Peter_Rotten
11-14-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm worried about Silver Knight because he is a critter that is often run with Jitte. Normally we can mitigate any Jitte hate by killing the creature before damage, but Silver Knight obviously makes that impossible.

thefreakaccident
11-14-2007, 12:39 PM
If you guys are going to insist on running more creatures in this deck, why not just play goblins... it has nothing but creatures and tricks to get even more... this deck on the other hand is played by follows:

1.) a few quick beats
2.) burn out the opponent...


That is it... occasionally the playstyle may change into burn a couple creatures, then beat, then burn some more... but you usually want to follow the first example... This deck is running the best creatures around, and therefore should be turning them sideways in the early turns.

Volt
11-14-2007, 02:06 PM
I'm worried about Silver Knight because he is a critter that is often run with Jitte. Normally we can mitigate any Jitte hate by killing the creature before damage, but Silver Knight obviously makes that impossible.


Ahem. Tin-Street Hooligan. Just sayin.

Wallace
11-14-2007, 03:10 PM
Ahem. Tin-Street Hooligan. Just sayin.

Been there, done that. Tin Street is ok but is more of a SB card. I played him on sat. at UMTW and was not impressed. I was more worried about COTV, Trinosphere, and Thorn of Amithist than about Jitte. Tin will be added to my board but will not remain in the MB.

The Marco
11-14-2007, 04:01 PM
I agree with Volt that he should me main in most meta, probably not a 4 of by maybee 2 or even 3.

And yes Silver Knight always comes down with Jitte, the very few games I lost with the deck was because of either Jitte or mostly the knight...that is why I'm so worried about him. Dryad deals with him but I'd rather play something else...

Volt
11-14-2007, 04:07 PM
Been there, done that. Tin Street is ok but is more of a SB card. I played him on sat. at UMTW and was not impressed. I was more worried about COTV, Trinosphere, and Thorn of Amithist than about Jitte. Tin will be added to my board but will not remain in the MB.

Well, Tin Street handles all those things, too, so you're kind of proving my point for me.

At the very least, I'm pretty sure Hooligan is better than Lava Spike or some of those zillion Shock substitutes that you run.

The Marco
11-14-2007, 04:16 PM
He is no doubt...Should we start discussing the sideboard a little...
So far I have:
- 3 needle
- 3 Crypt
- 3 Krosan grip
- 3 Threaten (I'm trying it at this point, really solid against goyf or random aggro with big beaters...)
- 3 EE
would magus of the moon be good, pyroclasm, Blood moon, Pyrokinesis, REB etc..

Wallace
11-14-2007, 04:16 PM
Well, Tin Street handles all those things, too, so you're kind of proving my point for me.

At the very least, I'm pretty sure Hooligan is better than Lava Spike or some of those zillion Shock substitutes that you run.

I ran the 4 x Tin Street's and they did nothing, cept for blowing up 1 Aether Vial. In the mirror and against goblins the died to Mogg Fanatic. I do like the Tin Street, he just seems more of a board card to me, they were kind of a sub par creature most of the day.

Whats every ones problem with Lava Spike? 3 points of damage for :r: not good enough for ya? I mean Lava Dart is 1 damage for :r:, sure you can sac a mountain and do one more damage but idk about your build but I really don't have many land to spare.

Wallace
11-14-2007, 04:27 PM
My board looks something like this:

3 Grip
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Tin Street
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Price of Progress (4th copy)
3 Blood Moon
1 Price of Glory

The Marco
11-14-2007, 07:02 PM
Nothing for the graveyard??

Wallace
11-14-2007, 07:07 PM
Nothing for the graveyard??


Why would I worrie about the yard, survival is the only match that I worrie about the yard. Icorid is a very easy match already and Breakfest is 50/50, the yard has never really been an issue with me.

aTn
11-15-2007, 11:31 AM
I'm relatively new to the deck (I've seen it played a lot but haven't tested much with it) and I'd like to know what's your overall strategy vs. Landstill (in particular SB options). Thanks in advance...

I've seen Threaten played in type 2 and I've been impressed with the card. The ability to steal a fattie and finishing with burn for the win seems good. Thoughts ?

Peter_Rotten
11-15-2007, 11:55 AM
Landstill is slow as hell and will need to eventually counter 2 out of 3 cards that you draw. I see most game ones against Landstill going like this: Get in early creature beats. They deal with your critters while you toss burn at their heads. Eventually they hit a critical point in their life total where they need to decide if they want to counter Bolts while risking a PoP to the dome. Game one should be very much in your favor.

However, game two can provide you with some headaches since the have effective hate cards. Depending on the colors being run, Landstill can have accesss to Chill and/or CoP: Red. Be sure to board in your Krosan Grips. I can imagine that a UBW build running discard and CoP: Reds could have solid game two against Goyf Sligh.

Watcher487
11-15-2007, 12:38 PM
Landstill is slow as hell and will need to eventually counter 2 out of 3 cards that you draw. I see most game ones against Landstill going like this: Get in early creature beats. They deal with your critters while you toss burn at their heads. Eventually they hit a critical point in their life total where they need to decide if they want to counter Bolts while risking a PoP to the dome. Game one should be very much in your favor.

That's pretty much it. If they are able to drop a standstill with an empty board, go land-go til either a problem happens (Man-land) or they go into thier discard step (Lava Dart is amazing here). Discard can be savage early, but in the late game if your holding up for critical mass it's not that big of a deal.

I normally board in Grips and Needles (for thier man-lands and/or Deed/EE) over Fireblast and Kird Apes.

Wallace
11-15-2007, 12:47 PM
Landstill is slow as hell and will need to eventually counter 2 out of 3 cards that you draw. I see most game ones against Landstill going like this: Get in early creature beats. They deal with your critters while you toss burn at their heads. Eventually they hit a critical point in their life total where they need to decide if they want to counter Bolts while risking a PoP to the dome. Game one should be very much in your favor.

However, game two can provide you with some headaches since the have effective hate cards. Depending on the colors being run, Landstill can have accesss to Chill and/or CoP: Red. Be sure to board in your Krosan Grips. I can imagine that a UBW build running discard and CoP: Reds could have solid game two against Goyf Sligh.


Very True P_R, I always smash Landstill game one, games twon and three are a diffrent story. I find myself haveing problems with the amount of hate that landstill decks can pack, Swords, Counter Spell, F.O.W., and Smother to name a few. I found that the more burn I pack the better the match is for me, creatures get hated out but they don't pack enough counters to stop all the burn. I try to get my opponent to somewhere between 8-10 and then try and Alpha Strike them out w/ POP and Fireblasts.

umbowta
11-15-2007, 02:47 PM
I've seen Landstill as yet another reason to run Cursed Scroll. Really, it's been that way since before Goyf and nothing has changed. We all know this deck runs out of gas at times. Scroll helps with that, as well as taking care of Silver Knight.

Personally, I run 3 Scrolls and 3 Lavamancers main. The deck still goldfishes consistently by turn 4 and has the occasional turn 3 kill so I really don't want to hear any whining about slowing the deck down...though someone probably will anyway.

troopatroop
11-15-2007, 03:33 PM
I've seen Landstill as yet another reason to run Cursed Scroll. Really, it's been that way since before Goyf and nothing has changed. We all know this deck runs out of gas at times. Scroll helps with that, as well as taking care of Silver Knight.

Personally, I run 3 Scrolls and 3 Lavamancers main. The deck still goldfishes consistently by turn 4 and has the occasional turn 3 kill so I really don't want to hear any whining about slowing the deck down...though someone probably will anyway.

Adding slower cards makes a deck slower. Your bias for the change considered, I would very much be willing to debate that subbing in Cursed Scrolls and Lavamancers would indeed slow the deck down. Don't try to say that it doesn't slow the deck down, because it does.

Wallace
11-15-2007, 04:07 PM
Adding slower cards makes a deck slower. Your bias for the change considered, I would very much be willing to debate that subbing in Cursed Scrolls and Lavamancers would indeed slow the deck down. Don't try to say that it doesn't slow the deck down, because it does.

Ditto, I run 3-4 lavamancers and they are slow enough. Cursed Scroll is even slower and playing them both in the same deck will just slow you down even more. If you want to run scroll, then run scroll but not lavamancers, or visa versa. I really don't see this deck working with both.

Jak
11-15-2007, 06:52 PM
Here is a list with the black splash that I might throw together. Not sure if you want splashed decks posted here, but the MD is exactly the same as most people.

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress

4 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
1 Forest

SB
4 Extirpate
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy (the wanna-be seize)
3 Krosan Grip
1 Price of Progress

So I wanted to splash for the better combo MU, but not hurt the deck at all by adding Dark Confidant to an uber fast sligh deck. I like Quirion as the 4th creature just because it is better than all of the other ones listed. It may be better as a burn piece, but it is 2cc and reacurring damage. Still need to test it more. If I did drop them, I would add Lava Spikes. Thoughts on the list?

Wallace
11-15-2007, 07:06 PM
@ Jak

If you look back a page or two you will find the deck I splased black in. It worked very well, I played Bob main deck and Duress in the Board. If you are going to run Bob main board you might wanna cut fireblast though, ouch.

Shriekmaw
11-15-2007, 07:10 PM
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress

4 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
1 Forest

SB
4 Extirpate
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy (the wanna-be seize)
3 Krosan Grip
1 Price of Progress




If you going with a black splash, then why not play Dark Confidant main deck. I think he is darn right amazing in this deck if you decide on a black splash. In the sideboard I would go with Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy, b/c your creatures are there to deal damage not getting rid of them to Therapy.

I'm not a fan of magma jet at all, there is a lot better burn spells available to you then jet. Incinerate comes to mind and also Dark Confidant. I like price of progress main deck if it was 2 colors, but since your running 3, I would simply more it to the sideboard.

Jak
11-15-2007, 07:23 PM
If you going with a black splash, then why not play Dark Confidant main deck. I think he is darn right amazing in this deck if you decide on a black splash. In the sideboard I would go with Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy, b/c your creatures are there to deal damage not getting rid of them to Therapy.

I'm not a fan of magma jet at all, there is a lot better burn spells available to you then jet. Incinerate comes to mind and also Dark Confidant. I like price of progress main deck if it was 2 colors, but since your running 3, I would simply more it to the sideboard.

I don't like Confidant MD just because he is slow. I wanted a light splash for the problematic MUs and Confidant doesn't help them. I like running Magma Jet over Confidant because, IMO, deck manipulation is mush better than slow draw.

Cabal Therapy will turn into Seize when I get them as I said, but it is still pretty good. Games 2 and 3, you should know what the opponent is playing and name the feared combo card.

Price main is perfectly acceptable. You should have the opponent to lower life than you against Thresh and Landstill. They won't get you down to 4-6 life. Plus, I would never fetch Badlands game 1. There is no need. If I draw, then so what, it is not like I will do myself over 6 damage.

Wallace
11-15-2007, 07:36 PM
I don't like Confidant MD just because he is slow. I wanted a light splash for the problematic MUs and Confidant doesn't help them. I like running Magma Jet over Confidant because, IMO, deck manipulation is mush better than slow draw.

Cabal Therapy will turn into Seize when I get them as I said, but it is still pretty good. Games 2 and 3, you should know what the opponent is playing and name the feared combo card.

Price main is perfectly acceptable. You should have the opponent to lower life than you against Thresh and Landstill. They won't get you down to 4-6 life. Plus, I would never fetch Badlands game 1. There is no need. If I draw, then so what, it is not like I will do myself over 6 damage.

Wait, Bob is slow, you're running Jet? Bob, if he lives, draws you an extra spell every turn. This decks biggest problem is stalling out and playing against combo. Bob draws you that extra bolt or Goyf, every turn!!! I ran him day two at TMLO III and he was amazing, most of the time. Never did I go, turn 2 or 3 bob and say " man I wish he was something else. "

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/RAV/en-us/Card83771.jpg > http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/5DN/en-us/Card51180.jpg

Jak
11-15-2007, 07:42 PM
I also said I like deck manipulation better than drawing a random card. Bob is slow at gaining you card advantage. You play him turn 2 and wait 2 more turns to get +1 CA. Now I would rather play Jet and send 2 dead lands to the bottom of my deck, while dealing 2 damage. Also, Bob main means flipping Fireblast terrible against combo, making it so much easier for them to Tendrils you. The life loss would add up with Bob, fetches, and PoP. I do not want to distort the deck to add a creature with minimal advantages over another card.

Wallace
11-15-2007, 07:49 PM
I also said I like deck manipulation better than drawing a random card. Bob is slow at gaining you card advantage. You play him turn 2 and wait 2 more turns to get +1 CA. Now I would rather play Jet and send 2 dead lands to the bottom of my deck, while dealing 2 damage. Also, Bob main means flipping Fireblast terrible against combo, making it so much easier for them to Tendrils you. The life loss would add up with Bob, fetches, and PoP. I do not want to distort the deck to add a creature with minimal advantages over another card.



....If you are going to run Bob main board you might wanna cut fireblast though, ouch.

So what you're saying is Bob doesn't net you cards? How is Bob not gaining card advantage, he replaces himself the turn after you play him? You don't get to use the cards you reveal off jet till the next turn? If you choose to Scry the cards to the bottom then the darw is just as random as Bob's draw is.

TrialByFire
11-15-2007, 07:54 PM
If you think Bob has minimal advantages over Magma Jet, you are sorely mistaken. Besides the fact that he dies to creature removal, Bob is better than Magma Jet all day long. Magma Jet hits for two. Once. Bob gets in as long as the board is clear (which it almost always is in the matchups he is good in). Magma Jet fixes your draw once, MAYBE sets you up for two good cards max. Bob draws you an extra card every turn he is in play. People always complain, "oh you'll flip Fireblast and take 6." Hello, that's an extra Fireblast in your hand and ready to deal 4 to their face, plus Bob attacking, is the 6 damage made up. Card Avantage WINS games, and if Bob is unanswered, 99% of the time you will win. This is way better than a marginal burn spell and Scry 2. He should be SB card at the very least.

Tao
11-15-2007, 07:56 PM
You play him turn 2 and wait 2 more turns to get +1 CA.

I have not tested this deck at all so I can't say if Bob is good in it.

But that statement is just not true, you have to wait for only one turn. Bob creates CA in the first upkeep because he is still in play then and that's a 2 for 1 by definition. (you gain a random card AND a 2/1 with a very relevant ability for just one card).

Jak
11-15-2007, 08:14 PM
I'll concede the arguement. I was thinking close-minded and just didn't like the idea of Bob in a fast, aggro deck. I can see where he would be great, but I was focusing on where he would be bad more. Magma Jet is still good though and should be run with Bob.

Quirion wasn't the best in the little testing I did, so I guess I will throw Bob in there.

lukatron2
11-16-2007, 12:14 PM
I'm not a fan of magma jet at all, there is a lot better burn spells available to you then jet. Incinerate comes to mind and also Dark Confidant.

Seriously? Magma Jet is probably the third best burn spell ever printed (Lightning bolt and Chain Lightning being 1st and 2nd). Think about it like this: You play incinerate, yea you get 1 more point of damage, but what the next 1-2 of your draws are land? If it were a magma jet you could fix the top to ensure or increase the chances of business cards next turn. Its like delayed gratification. In other words, in the long run Magma Jet is able to net you more damage potentially because it allows you to skip drawing land or other useless cards you don't need and it decreases your chances of drawing cards like that. Maybe if you're running a R burn spell for 3 dmg I can see the argument because of the mana efficiency but I would say that Magma Jet is definitely better than Incinerate.

As for the two cards (Dark Confidant and Magma Jet) being compared directly, yea I would rather run Confidant. The only thing I don't like about splashing black is that PoP can potentially screw you, but I think Bob is definitely worth the splash.

Sacearuse, you mentioned that Ichorid is a bye or a very easy match-up. I'm just curious as to how it is usually played because I haven't got to test against this deck yet. Basically, I know you sac the Fanatics whenever they get bridges, and also burn their dudes, but what specific plays have sealed the deal in this match-up in your experience?

Wallace
11-16-2007, 01:14 PM
@ Luckatron2

Well you really said it, Mogg to get rid of bridges and then just burn them out. They help you out by flashing back Deep Anal. and don't really have any answers to your burn and Tarmogoyf. I have played against Ichorid twice, once with Goyf Sligh and once with str8 burn, both match’s were over quickly. Goyf Sligh can just over power Ichorid, with out Bridge its not even a match. If they get Bridge going you are in trouble though, I pack Pyroclasm in the SB and it definitely helps in this match.

umbowta
11-16-2007, 03:27 PM
Adding slower cards makes a deck slower. Your bias for the change considered, I would very much be willing to debate that subbing in Cursed Scrolls and Lavamancers would indeed slow the deck down. Don't try to say that it doesn't slow the deck down, because it does.If you're suggesting that running without Scrolls changes this decks clock from a consistent turn 4 to even 3.5, by all means, give your viewpoints. Previous testing with 3 Scroll/3 Mancers main:

20 little fishes, on the play, with mullies, yielded:
turn 3 wins...1
turn 4 wins...17
turn 5 wins...2
average...4.05
then I got bored.

I can't personally justify abandoning the mid/late game plan because match play doesn't equal goldfishing. I can, however, justify Cursed Scroll to help answer Landstill. It can be dropped on turn 1 and gets under Standstill all day long. It can't be STP'ed, it can't be WOG'ed, and yet it must be dealt with. Maybe they'll get lucky and hit that singleton E.E. Maybe they even have deed. It's still good and the average still = 4.05...before I got bored anyway. Pretty frickin fast for an aggro deck with a back up plan.

I should also mention that a Tarmogoyf ground stall can be quite annoying, and quite easily taken care of (without having to spend an additional card) with an active Scroll.

Anyway, Troopatroop, If you've already goldfished a bunch a times and would like to share results, please do...save me from the drudgery. If you can hit a turn 3 win at least 8 times out of 20, then I'll concede that the deck might be fast enough to abandon a mid/late plan.

Wallace
11-16-2007, 04:21 PM
@ umbowta :

If landstill is such a problem for you then maybe you wanna play a deck better suited for your meta. Adding cursed scroll will slow this deck down, Lavamancer can be droped turn one and activated turn two, thats 2 damage guraunteed. With cursed Scroll you can play it turn one, wait till turn three to activate it, and maybe get 2 damage through. Plus if you are sitting under a Standstill lock then you are going to have a lot of cards in your hand, IDK about you but how many time do you think you hit for 2 with the Scroll?

lukatron2
11-16-2007, 08:07 PM
I can, however, justify Cursed Scroll to help answer Landstill. It can be dropped on turn 1 and gets under Standstill all day long. It can't be STP'ed, it can't be WOG'ed, and yet it must be dealt with. Maybe they'll get lucky and hit that singleton E.E. Maybe they even have deed. It's still good and the average still = 4.05...before I got bored anyway. Pretty frickin fast for an aggro deck with a back up plan.



Cursed Scroll is NOT a great card against Landstill. Here are the reasons why:

1. Nantuko Monastary is a 4/4 and they also have Mishra's Factory that can be pumped. If you're an aggro deck playing against standstill, generally you just play through standstill and break it with business spells and not try to "get under Standstill all day long" cause if you try to out-play them under a standstill, you WILL loose. the deck is called LANDstill for a good reason.
2. The most popular Landstill build (4 color) runs 4 deed and generally 0-2 Disenchant/Engineered Explosives. The deck also happens to run a ton of draw so dealing with your little cursed scroll won't be too difficult. And while thats going on they'll be taking care of any other 1-2 drops you have down as well.

Against Landstill you just have to lay down the beats early and put as much pressure as possible and not overextend TOO much and then just burn their face. PoP helps a lot here and you should probably side in Krosan Grips too.

Wallace
11-16-2007, 09:23 PM
So there was a little bit of talk going on about running Baubles in Goyf Sligh. What about running Needle Drop, Watcher487 ran it at TMLO III as a 2 of and said it was good. For those of you that don't know ND: :r: Instant Deal 1 damage to target creature or player that was delt damage this turn. Draw a card.

The way I look at it, it basically makes a burn spell cost :r: more and nets you a card and 1 damage. Or you can just add 1 damage to an attacking creature and draw. SO does anyone see this being a viable card in this deck?

Shriekmaw
11-16-2007, 10:14 PM
So there was a little bit of talk going on about running Baubles in Goyf Sligh. What about running Needle Drop, Watcher487 ran it at TMLO III as a 2 of and said it was good. For those of you that don't know ND: :r: Instant Deal 1 damage to target creature or player that was delt damage this turn. Draw a card.

The way I look at it, it basically makes a burn spell cost :r: more and nets you a card and 1 damage. Or you can just add 1 damage to an attacking creature and draw. SO does anyone see this being a viable card in this deck?


I'm a personally a fan of needle drop because in the end, it does only 1 point of damage. I would rather play a burn card that does more than just 1. Some options that come to mind are incinerate, lava dart, kindle, magma jet, Fire/Ice, or Arc Lightning. Incinerate and Lava Dart are the best out of that list, but some of the other options are interesting to say the least.

I know that needle drop may seem not that bad b/c it draws you a card, but the goal of this deck is to do as much damage as fast as possible.

Wallace
11-16-2007, 10:20 PM
I'm a personally a fan of needle drop because in the end, it does only 1 point of damage. I would rather play a burn card that does more than just 1. Some options that come to mind are incinerate, lava dart, kindle, magma jet, Fire/Ice, or Arc Lightning. Incinerate and Lava Dart are the best out of that list, but some of the other options are interesting to say the least.

I know that needle drop may seem not that bad b/c it draws you a card, but the goal of this deck is to do as much damage as fast as possible.


See thats all I'm really looking for is a little card advantage. I already play all of the good burn spells and I don't want to play Dart with fireblast already in the deck Fireblast. The baubles have been really good for me and I was just thinking that Neddle Drop is a good substitute...

from Cairo
11-16-2007, 10:45 PM
Needle Drop seems fine in a 2 of. You obviously need it to be paired with another damage source of some kind so you dont want to be getting them too often in top deck mode, but it seems fine as a filler burn spell after you have 4x of the good ones.

Shriekmaw
11-17-2007, 12:41 AM
Needle Drop seems fine in a 2 of. You obviously need it to be paired with another damage source of some kind so you dont want to be getting them too often in top deck mode, but it seems fine as a filler burn spell after you have 4x of the good ones.


I'm not against a lot of cards that most of you bring up that belong in this deck. I think Needle Drop is darn right awful. Would you please play a better burn spell then that? Card draw is not an issue with this deck. Winning as fast as possible with optimal burn and creatures.

lukatron2
11-17-2007, 05:52 PM
I'm not against a lot of cards that most of you bring up that belong in this deck. I think Needle Drop is darn right awful. Would you please play a better burn spell then that? Card draw is not an issue with this deck. Winning as fast as possible with optimal burn and creatures.

Have you tested it yet? I mean, I'm not saying it's gonna' be the nuts, but it's a card that actually looks decent and placed well in someones decklist. I think it should at least be tested as a 2 of, 3 of and 4 of just to see if it has potential. This card seems pretty decent and when I saw it in Watcher's list it struck me as very interesting.

It does one damage then replaces itself all for just R. I think if you ran it along side magma jet and dark confidant that would be a crazy amount of card quality/advantage for a deck that is mainly red.

from Cairo
11-17-2007, 10:38 PM
It wins goyf clashes and cantrips. It can be thrown to the dome on any turn that you got some creature damage through. It can pair with a bolt effect to take down a 4 body w/o losing card advantage... I mean it clearly has uses, but at the same time it sucks hard when you don't have another damage effect to pair it with, it does not work well as a stand alone card.

I don't think it's awful, but its definitely situational, which there are alot of options that are not.

HdH_Cthulhu
11-18-2007, 07:25 PM
I have tested needl drop a littl bit (not in this deck) and i must say it is not realy good.

Yes it cantrips and it deals one dmg! Sometimes you could create a little bit cardadvantage or deal the last point of dmg to the dome...

But in the end the card is too weak! It does not enogh to go in a deck like thist!
I mean whene you want to draw a card play stuff like Streetwraith or bouble. so instead of 1 dmg to a target that was delt dmg for :r: you could pay 0 and also draw a card...

But does this deck need Card draw? I dont think so...

raharu
11-18-2007, 07:53 PM
If you'll even consider Needle Drop, then you should run Crushing Pain. I would like the ability to throw some chump under a creathre, then nail it for +6. Also, has any thought been given to Inflame? It has given me mixed results with various decks.

lukatron2
11-18-2007, 08:58 PM
If you'll even consider Needle Drop, then you should run Crushing Pain. I would like the ability to throw some chump under a creathre, then nail it for +6. Also, has any thought been given to Inflame? It has given me mixed results with various decks.

The thing about that is: Neither of those cards

A: Damage an opponent

B: Draw you a card

Those are both terrible choices ans also terrible cards to compare Needle Drop to because they are in no way similar. Those cards are extremely narrow. First off, if you're going to play Inflame, you could just play Pyroclasm which is way better and not retarded. Crushing Pain is extremely terrible because its going to be a 2 for 1 card disadvantage for you either way. Let me explain: If they block your creature, either they both die, yours dies, or theirs dies. If they both die, its 1 for 1. If yours dies, you get -1 card (creature that was killed) and then -1 more card for using Crushing Pain on that creature. The third option where you kill their creature, it is dead.
This deck wants to have cheap flexible burn cards and not dead, bad cards.



I mean whene you want to draw a card play stuff like Streetwraith or bouble. so instead of 1 dmg to a target that was delt dmg for :r: you could pay 0 and also draw a card...

But does this deck need Card draw? I dont think so...

yea but do Streetwraith or bauble deal 1 damage? No...

also, this card doesn't need card draw, but why wouldn't you want card advantage/quality in any deck? That just doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying Needle Drop belongs in this deck, but your arguments against it are not very strong at all and also you haven't even tested the card in this deck yet.

Watcher487
11-18-2007, 09:24 PM
Guys, I think you're all playing from the wrong point of view here. Needle Drop was a 2-of in my deck that also had Lava Dart and Keldon Mauraders as well. As Sacearuse said in this thread, I tested it off of his suggestion and it worked out for me. Yeah, it's HIGHLY SITUATIONAL, but it worked when I needed it, and it wasn't much of a down side when I had it. Drop makes Dryad better, since it replaces itself and pumps the Dryad. What worked for me what a very low curve and alternative casting cost spells. There really isn't much else to talk about that, yeah it's a nice card. If it came down to it, I would probably play more 3-damage for 1 mana cards along with Lava Dart.

raharu
11-19-2007, 04:04 PM
Needle Drop: it's just bad. In other news, has anyone thought of Thunderclap? It's a mini-fireblast that can be used when you're tapped out without severely hampering your mana development.

Wallace
11-19-2007, 04:22 PM
Verbal Warning. Keep a cool head and discuss ideas without attacking the poster.

-PR

Volt
11-19-2007, 04:55 PM
I playtested Needle Drop in this deck as soon as Lorwyn came out. It's alright. I played 2 of them, cuz that's how many slots I had left over after putting in all the stuff I really wanted. I eventually dropped them for Brute Forces, which I like because I play a creature-heavy version.

from Cairo
11-19-2007, 11:03 PM
In other news, has anyone thought of Thunderclap? It's a mini-fireblast that can be used when you're tapped out without severely hampering your mana development.

Idk what Sacearuse said in response to this, or if his reply was even directed towards this...

But Thuderclap seems awful, it only targets creatures. A big part of what makes Fireblast good is the ability to end your opponent very quickly in the early stages of the game with the last 8-10pts to the dome: tap mountain, tap mountain, Shock/Bolt, Shock/Bolt, sac said mountains, Fireblast, win.

kicks_422
11-20-2007, 07:03 AM
Versatility is king in the deck... Meaning targets players and creatures. That said, Needle Drop might be good as a 2-of. I'll get around to testing it, I guess.

In case some people haven't read it, you might want to check out the opening post to the old Dryad Sligh thread, linked on the front page of this thread. It's basically everything you need to know about the deck, except with Goyf over Dryad.

Wallace
11-20-2007, 10:54 AM
Idk what Sacearuse said in response to this, or if his reply was even directed towards this...

But Thuderclap seems awful, it only targets creatures. A big part of what makes Fireblast good is the ability to end your opponent very quickly in the early stages of the game with the last 8-10pts to the dome: tap mountain, tap mountain, Shock/Bolt, Shock/Bolt, sac said mountains, Fireblast, win.

My post said the same thing; I just used a tone that was a little harsher than yours (sorry PR). It’s just very frustrating to have someone just throw cards out there. All three cards raharu suggested are terrible because they don't target players.

Shriekmaw
11-20-2007, 06:01 PM
My post said the same thing; I just used a tone that was a little harsher than yours (sorry PR). It’s just very frustrating to have someone just throw cards out there. All three cards raharu suggested are terrible because they don't target players.


I agree that they are some cards that don't really belong in the deck. I try my best to give alternative choices instead of saying that this or that card sucks all the time. I know sometimes its hard, but by not giving constructive criticism your not accomplishing anything.

I do agree that needle drop is bad as I stated above. Why don't you try some of my suggestions and get back to me. I know how to play this game.

Wallace
11-21-2007, 04:21 PM
So here is the list I have been testing on MWS and Goldfishing. It seems to work very well, the Keldon Marauders are a lot better than I expected them to be and Needle Drop is working just like I thought it would. Onw of the fun plays is playing Needle Drop the turn Keldon Maruders goes to the yard.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Kird Ape

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
2 Seal of Fire
2 Needle Drop

4 Taiga
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
4 Blood Moon
3 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Price of Progress
1 Seal of Primordium

black_lotus
11-21-2007, 06:37 PM
Hi guy's,

Long time Legacy veteran, new to this forum.

I'm contemplating playing this archetype at a upcoming tournament that is heavily populated by Threshold, some Landstill, Goblins, and a few randoms.

I came up with two builds, and was seeking any thoughts on the builds:


Version 1 (R/g):

Lands

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
1 Forest
5 Mountain

Creatures

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape

Spells

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
2 Seal of Fire
2 Tarfire

Sideboard:

1 Price if Progress
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroclasm
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

The only thin I'm not sure about in this build is the Seal/Tarfire. On one hand, the relevance it has to Goyf has come up during testing within our team's gauntlet, yet, cutting both two of's for 4 Magma Jet also seems nice...




Version 1 (R/g/b):

Lands

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Forest
3 Mountain

Creatures

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Dark Confidant

Spells

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Fireblast
2 Seal of Fire
2 Tarfire

Sideboard:

3 Krosan Grip
4 Price of Progress
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroclasm
4 Thoughtseize

I love Dark Confidant in this deck...when he sticks or resolves, which is rare. I just cant decide if it is worth Bob, while altering other aspects of the deck.

Wallace
11-21-2007, 06:47 PM
@ black lotus

First off, Welcome to the source!

I play this deck a lot and have top 8ed with it twich in the last month. I really like Price of Progress in the Main Board. Other than that either build is fine. I would drop the one forest for another mountain. Wasteland is nbd and you will be pissed when you draw that forest and want to fireblast. The black build is good but less consistant, I would play the str8 R/G version. Check the list I just posted, I have been doing really well with it.

black_lotus
11-21-2007, 06:54 PM
@ black lotus

First off, Welcome to the source!

Thanks.



I would drop the one forest for another mountain. Wasteland is nbd and you will be pissed when you draw that forest and want to fireblast.

I think I may keep the forest only because the Thresh player's in my meta all run waste. That being said, in testing there was times I needed to Fireblast for the win, and could not, or I need multiple red sources to cast multi 1cc burn for the win and couldn't.



The black build is good but less consistant, I would play the str8 R/G version. Check the list I just posted, I have been doing really well with it.

My question regarding your list is Needle Drop. Have you or anyone else tested this in tournament play? It just seems so bad to me (IMO), yet also makes sense....

Wallace
11-21-2007, 07:00 PM
My question regarding your list is Needle Drop. Have you or anyone else tested this in tournament play? It just seems so bad to me (IMO), yet also makes sense....


Just read back a few pages and you will see mixed thoughts on Needle drop. I really don't think you need the forest, wasteland rarely if ever hurts this deck. You just sac the Taiga in response to Wasteland (Fireblast or Lava Dart if you are running it), the one forest just seems out of place. Look at the deck, you have 8 cards in the Main board that require a forest, one of them is Kird Ape who you can still cast without a forest. This deck needs :r: sources to function, if you are running 8 fetch lands then haveing a forst when you need it shouldn't be a problem.

black_lotus
11-21-2007, 07:09 PM
Just read back a few pages and you will see mixed thoughts on Needle drop. I really don't think you need the forest, wasteland rarely if ever hurts this deck. You just sac the Taiga in response to Wasteland (Fireblast or Lava Dart if you are running it), the one forest just seems out of place. Look at the deck, you have 8 cards in the Main board that require a forest, one of them is Kird Ape who you can still cast without a forest. This deck needs :r: sources to function, if you are running 8 fetch lands then haveing a forst when you need it shouldn't be a problem.


Hmm, ya Needle Drop is quite a toss up.

Your arguments regarding the Forest seem valid, I will try an additional Mountain.

lukatron2
11-22-2007, 08:05 PM
Hmm, ya Needle Drop is quite a toss up.

Your arguments regarding the Forest seem valid, I will try an additional Mountain.

I can see what Sacearuse is saying about the lone forest but how has it been for you? I mean personally I like having a lone forest just in case Wasteland is around or if they have crucible + waste like in Landstill you want to be able to cast your goyfs. The forest is like insurance to me.

I liked both of your lists and when I was reading the first one I was thinking "the seal of fire and tarfire should be magma jets"...but you were one step ahead and mentioned it right after you posted your list.

I took 2nd place in a local tournament yesterday and Magma Jet saved me a number of times. When I'm in topdeck mode I don't want to be drawing land. There was one game last night where I was playing against Rifter and my opponent was starting to stabilize but I scryed away two lands and the next two cards I drew won me the game.
3rd round I was playing against Trainwreck and I had them at a low amount of life when the guy casts haunting echoes removing everything exept taigas, mountains, wooded foothills, lava dart, magma jet, and Quirion dryad. So we sat there in topdeck mode until he got out a Helldozer. He was at 5 life while I was at 17 on a 3 turn clock. I got a magma jet, got him down to 3, scryed my way into another magma jet (avoiding land), and then scryed my way into a lava dart which won me the game and sealed 2nd place for me. I seriously think the card is just too amazing not to run...anyway, thats just my 2 cents...Both builds look pretty solid..I would go with the R/G cause it lets you run MD Price of Progress but bob also looks hot. One thing is that the R/G list looks a bit faster...Good luck

Shriekmaw
11-22-2007, 08:23 PM
Hmm, ya Needle Drop is quite a toss up.

Your arguments regarding the Forest seem valid, I will try an additional Mountain.


I can see the argument of running another mountain over a forest, but if your metagame has a lot of wastelands then running 1 basic forest is the correct decision.

I think running seal of fire or tarfire is vastly superior than needle drop in the builds. A lot of games it comes down to those last few points of damage, so running the best quality burn spells becomes very important.

Remember, the forest not only lets you cast Tarmogoyf, but also makes your Kird Ape a 2/3 which is very important in a lot of matchups.

lukatron2
11-22-2007, 10:46 PM
I think running seal of fire or tarfire is vastly superior than needle drop in the builds. A lot of games it comes down to those last few points of damage, so running the best quality burn spells becomes very important.



Thats why I think that Magma Jet is so important.

Wallace
11-25-2007, 09:57 AM
I just made top 8 in Syracuse w/ my List on the last page. I really liked the Needle Drop as a two of. I ran Kird ape with some good results and Grim lavamancer was MVP.

zander1
12-01-2007, 11:48 AM
Hie guys!
I thought about running this deck too, but I have a question: Why do you run Grim Lavamancer when you play tarmogoyf in this deck?

Volt
12-01-2007, 12:31 PM
Hie guys!
I thought about running this deck too, but I have a question: Why do you run Grim Lavamancer when you play tarmogoyf in this deck?

Already asked and answered. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=175945&postcount=59)

Peter_Rotten
12-02-2007, 10:37 AM
I watched CAngel prove to me why Needle Drop sucks. His opponent playing TES casts a turn one Dark Confidant and then Chants him on his upkeep. CAngel's only 1cc instant burn in hand was Needle Drop. :frown: That Confidant bought that TES player an extra draw and enabled him to set up an IGGY loop a turn before his death.

Conditional burn for-the-loss. Price of Progress breaks this rule since it scales so ridiculously.

Watcher487
12-02-2007, 10:55 AM
I watched CAngel prove to me why Needle Drop sucks. His opponent playing TES casts a turn one Dark Confidant and then Chants him on his upkeep. CAngel's only 1cc instant burn in hand was Needle Drop. :frown: That Confidant bought that TES player an extra draw and enabled him to set up an IGGY loop a turn before his death.

Conditional burn for-the-loss. Price of Progress breaks this rule since it scales so ridiculously.

Actually Matt he had a Fanatic in his hand.... And a Dart in the yard....

Sims
12-02-2007, 01:11 PM
Indeed, I started to scrub pretty bad in that game. I've got a list of reasonable excuses a mile long, but meh, fuck it.

In any case, in playing the deck I felt there were aspects of Watcher's deck that I didn't necessarily care for including Needle Drop and Dryad, but I believe these are playstyle concerns mostly. I play, usually, a bit more aggressive than Shane does and don't like the aforementioned cards because of it. I would have greatly preferred Magma Jet or even Incinerate or Lava Spike in place of that Needle Drop.

Also, Shane. He is talking about chant on my second turn. That was one I couldn't respond to at the time, iirc.

Wallace
12-02-2007, 07:43 PM
How many drops are were/are you running? Can I see your list?

Shriekmaw
12-02-2007, 08:02 PM
Indeed, I started to scrub pretty bad in that game. I've got a list of reasonable excuses a mile long, but meh, fuck it.

In any case, in playing the deck I felt there were aspects of Watcher's deck that I didn't necessarily care for including Needle Drop and Dryad, but I believe these are playstyle concerns mostly. I play, usually, a bit more aggressive than Shane does and don't like the aforementioned cards because of it. I would have greatly preferred Magma Jet or even Incinerate or Lava Spike in place of that Needle Drop.

Also, Shane. He is talking about chant on my second turn. That was one I couldn't respond to at the time, iirc.


I've been trying to tell a lot of people that want to play Goyf Slight that needle drop is just horrible. The main problem with Drayd is that he Never stays alive very long. I like the creature list of 16 (Goyf, Lavamancer, Fanatic, Kird Ape) and the rest of the deck should be filled with burn cards.

I don't believe this deck needs any card draw whatsoever, it needs to reduce your opponent to zero life as quickly as humanly possible.

Sims
12-02-2007, 08:15 PM
The list that was being run was Watchers, for reference it was:

Lands (18)//
5 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures (20)//
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Keldon Marauder
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf

Burn (22)//
4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Dart
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Needle Drop

The Board (15, janked cause we didn't have the cards we needed)//
4 Pyroclasm
4 Krosan Grip
2 Earthquake
2 Blood Moon
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Brief summary of tournament:

Round 1- Pat with AngelStax (top 8 deck, dunno his source name).
This one was over in 10 minutes. Game 1 Turn 1 chalice for 1, turn 3 chalice for 2. Game 2 an early Exalted Angel + chalice for 1 while I was stuck on two lands with Grip in hand. (0-1, 0-2)

Round 2- (I don't remember your real name, sorry) Insertnamehere I believe with Elves of some form.
This was also over relatively fast. Game 1- Play beats and focus burn at blockers. Thorn was mildly annoying but not bad. Game 2- Bring in a few pyroclasms and Earthquakes from the board for PoPs. Burn away blockers while swinging in with beats, resolve earthquake to finish sweeping the board and pound for the victory. (1-1, 2-2)

Round 3- Bre from Albany of Gaypr0n and B is for BigJob fame, 43lands.
Game 1- Price of Progress = win.
Game 2- I fail to draw price and can't overcome Pyrostatic Pillar
Game 3- Blood Moon + double PoP. (2-1, 4-3)

Round 4- James with UW Landstill (Top 4 deck)
Game 1- This game was pretty straight forward, I had no way of avoiding Wrath on a few threats, he had some key counters due to standstill, finally finishingme off were a 2 back to back cycled decrees for a lot.
Game 2- Having played in albany vs. UW Still, I know there had to be CoP or Pulse of the Fields in the board somewhere, so i bring in clasm for tokens and Sulfuric Vortex. I find neither and suffer to lack of gas + Pulse -> more soldiers. (2-2, 4-5)

Round 5- Matt P (Peter_Rotten) with the Goyf Mirror.
Game 1- As I posted in the tournament thread. I got 3 goyfs to his 1, some burn, some critter beats, he mocked my Marauder. I win.
Game 2- Some burn kills a turn 2 3/4, but another goyf follows on the next turn with either kird or marauder as a friend soon after and takes it home. (3-2, 6-5)

Round 6- Dan G. (Gaagooch) with TES
Game 1- I lay into him with some beats for a few turns, he begins to go off and I think makes a mistake and grabs Bargain, lowering his life total to 6 or 7 but he fizzles. I finish him off.
Game 2- I bring in the clasms figuring he may have to go ETW on me, but he goes off rather quickly with tendrils and I can't stop it.
Game 3- This was for a slot in the top8, so it was important. Bluntly stated I felt we both played well, though we both made mistakes. A fuck up early cleared my board as I chained a confidant when i should have fanatic'd it, allowing him to chain it at my kird. Mistake 1 hurts a bit as his mistake was a bit worse, he forgot to swing with confidant. That mattered as when he went to combo off he could have cast tendrils for the win if Confidant got in, so he chains off to ETW for 22 tokens. He passed turn and left me to my draw, making my hand Chain, Rift Bolt, Bolt, Needle Drop with 3 lands and a dart in my yard, a fanatic and a dryad on the table. I am at 19, he is at 11. I ponder over this knowing this is the top 8 on the line and I fucked up hard. With Rotten behind me heckling me and complaining that he couldn't watch my misplay anymore. I began my play, throwing a burn spell at his head and then needle dropping to draw a land, realized I fucked up, and conceded the match.

He went on to win the tournament and I left with a final standing of 3-3 matches, 6-7 in games, and one helluva fun experience for my first time in a tournament since Kadis SECOND DLD.

I should have swung with the fanatic. If he blocked, that's only 21 tokens now and I can throw the fanatic at him (or another goblin). If I threw it at him I could drop him back to 9 with needle drop and draw (the draw was a stomping ground). This would allow me to play land, suspend the rift bolt, dart a critter (20 goblins), and then chain a critter (19 critters). At this point I'd have a bolt in hand, a suspended rift bolt for the upkeep, and he couldn't kill me in one swing without getting past my dryad. The top card after I conceded was revealed to be a bolt. 9 damage for his 9 life. Well, hindsight is 20-20, yes?

All in all, I enjoyed the way the deck performed, but I seriously felt that Needle Drop and Dryad were lacking horribly. I played very aggresively all day and felt that the Dryad was useless pretty much everytime I drew it, and Needle drop only worked for me once in the entire tournament. It mostly became sideboard slot fodder later in the tournament.

Peter_Rotten
12-02-2007, 08:42 PM
How did those Keldon Marauders treat you? JP and I always talk about how they're almost Legacy playable. Did you find them blocked too often? Was he able to often do what we've called "his job" (doing 5 damage)?

Dryad is now on my "iffy" card list. Sometimes he just gets huge and, as we've all discussed to death, he is a horrible late game top deck. If he goes, then Dart can go and maybe Rift Bolt can hit the main. Or maybe some sort of 3/3 split of Incinerate and Rift Bolt.

Either way, I doubt I'll be playing Goyf Sligh again in Mass. Mass's new motto is "Give me Chalice or give me death." They're even printing it on the license plates along with a picture of kids playing Trinispheres in Angel Stax.

Sims
12-02-2007, 08:53 PM
The only match in which Marauders didn't do their full 5 was with you becuase you actually had the removal for them. All of my other matches they either did the full 5 damage or I used them to block manlands/critters coming in on the attack.
The way I see it, for the cost of :1::r:, one of 4 things happens:

A) You lava axe your opponent, granted it's over 3 turns.
B) Your opponent burns a removal spell that now cannot be used on your subsequent Goyfs, they still take a shock.
C) Your opponent swings in with a Goyf (or orther creature) and you are able to chump it off and put dmg onto said Goyf for subsequent burning. Your opponent still get shocked.
D) He goes farming, and you essentially lava dart your opponent while they give you a healing salve.

He would be infinitely better if he had Fading instead of Vanishing, but that is beside the point. I never played him in the tournament and had him feel subpar, unlike the Dryad which I wished was Lavamancer or even Wildmongrel all day long.

Peter_Rotten
12-02-2007, 09:32 PM
D) He goes farming, and you essentially lava dart your opponent while they give you a healing salve.

He still Shocks the opponent here. It's a "Leaves play" trigger, not a "hit the yard" one.

Maybe I'll reconsider KM. I sorta hate that he'll never do more than 5 dmg though.

Sims
12-02-2007, 09:45 PM
You're correct, I misread the card. I thought it was when it goes to the yard. That does make him a little bit better even if he goes farming, as he's nearly a Lightning Helix, but I still think he's a valid contender for that slot.

Watcher487
12-03-2007, 12:33 PM
Maybe I'll reconsider KM. I sorta hate that he'll never do more than 5 dmg though.

The main reason why I run the mauraders is due to Thresh. They trade with Mongeese, knocks Tarmo down a few pegs or just gives the opponent an axe. All this and they deal 2 damage. If they was stuff killing it or they counter it, it's stuff not going to Tarmo. While it's true, I'm more of a controlish player when it comes to the deck (I'm so used to playing burn against Landstill). Mauraders can really be cut throat and easily turn a match around. Other than that, I need to work on my board and hopefully find something to get around Angel Staxx.

nitewolf9
12-03-2007, 12:43 PM
Other than that, I need to work on my board and hopefully find something to get around Angel Staxx.

Meltdown? Shattering spree? It seems that chalice and trinisphere both wreck this deck...seal of primordium could be good as well.

Sims
12-03-2007, 12:49 PM
I was looking for Tin Street for the board earlier but even Shattering Spree would have been better so it could have gotten around the chalices. I know Steve played one Seal of Primordium in his sideboard to compliment Krosan Grip and feed goyf, so that's another possibility.

In all honesty though, I do think I fear Chalice a little more than Trini. Trini I can at least still cast threats through until I can find my spell to kill it.. Chalice, without removal in hand, leaves me weak and unable to do anything except die.

Cait_Sith
12-03-2007, 01:36 PM
Honestly, I prefer Meltdown when it comes to matters such at these. If you are lucky enough to have 4 lands against Stax, Meltdown sweeps away Chalice, Trini, Crucible, Moxen, Bridge, and any other cards that happen to be around. Since Stax tends to love to play as many of its permanents as possible, especially in the case Ensnaring Bridge, Meltdown often hits more cards for the same mana as Shattering Spree.

jamest
12-03-2007, 02:21 PM
Question: How does Goyf Sligh fare against Threshold? Obviously, this depends on the how both decks are constructed. What versions of Goyf Sligh do best against Thresh?

Wallace
12-03-2007, 03:11 PM
Question: How does Goyf Sligh fare against Threshold? Obviously, this depends on the how both decks are constructed. What versions of Goyf Sligh do best against Thresh?

Goyf Sligh normally win before Thresh can get going. I play a more burn than creatures and the creatures I do play are all good sized. I don't have a problem with Mongoose and werebear can be dealt with by Goyf. If you run into counter Top then the match become a little more difficult though.

As far as dealing with Trinisphere, Thorn of Amithist or Chalice, Shattering Spree is your card. I run 3x Spree, 2x Seal of Prim., and 2x Krosan Grip in my board, as long as you don't run into any of said artifact's main board, you should be ok.

josch
12-03-2007, 04:59 PM
Hi i'm new to this board. I read this threat coz I was informing myself about the possebilitys of R/G in Legecy. I've not testet any R/G Deck yet, but i wonderd if Skyshroud War Beast is i good adition in this case? Of corse i'm not sure - as i said of have close to 0 experience with R/G. In the early game it'll possible not make an impact as a firewalker, but in topdeck mode it can become verry big.

Phantom
12-03-2007, 05:04 PM
Honestly, I prefer Meltdown when it comes to matters such at these. If you are lucky enough to have 4 lands against Stax, Meltdown sweeps away Chalice, Trini, Crucible, Moxen, Bridge, and any other cards that happen to be around. Since Stax tends to love to play as many of its permanents as possible, especially in the case Ensnaring Bridge, Meltdown often hits more cards for the same mana as Shattering Spree.

I'm not seeing how you can compare the two here. Shattering Spree is awesome. Meltdown sucks. At least in this deck. Meltdown is mana intesive. This deck runs almost no draw and as few lands as possible as it curves out at a whopping 2. Even if you manage to ramp up to four mana against Stax (and you WON'T) generally 17/18 land we run produces red mana, so you could still blow up 4 artifacts with Spree. So Meltdown would be slightly better if you managed to ramp up to 4 mana against a mana denial deck with a thin mana base and they had 5+ artifacts out.

Compare that to the much more likely situation of you struggling to get 1-2 mana against a mana denial deck and being able to hit that crucial Crucible/Bridge off only one mana.

The only matchup I can really see Meltdown being better than Spree in is Affinity.

Wallace
12-03-2007, 05:07 PM
Hi i'm new to this board. I read this threat coz I was informing myself about the possebilitys of R/G in Legecy. I've not testet any R/G Deck yet, but i wonderd if Skyshroud War Beast is i good adition in this case? Of corse i'm not sure - as i said of have close to 0 experience with R/G. In the early game it'll possible not make an impact as a firewalker, but in topdeck mode it can become verry big.

First off, welcome to the source!

Skyshroud War Beast hasn't been tested in Goyf Sligh, the creatures this deck normaly plays are:

Tarmogoyf
Mogg Fanatic
Grim Lavamancer
Quirion Dryad
Keldon Marauders
Kird Ape
Skyshroud Elite
Spark Elemental
Slith Firewalker

Give War Beast a shot though, let everyone know how it does.

josch
12-05-2007, 07:52 AM
First of all i've to say that i'm not that familiar with Lagacy at all. As i said i'm new to this whole Lagecy Stuff and i've not spandet that much time on testing. So it myght be possible the my results are not the best.

My results are that the War Beast can be really good if the opponent ist not expecting it and plays a deck with much nb lands. When your opponent knows what's comming it's not that hard for him to play around it and if he plays not much nonbasics it sucks anyway.

kicks_422
12-05-2007, 07:58 AM
Hi.

Ever since with the old R/G Sligh thread, I made it a point that you should NEVER run cards in the deck which might be dead in certain MU's. Skyshroud War Beast is one of those cards.

It all depends on your meta, of course... If you rarely see basics, then it's a great back-up beater to Goyf. In a random meta though, it's at best an SB option, though I personally won't be using SB slots on a beater.

Wallace
12-05-2007, 11:29 AM
Hi.

Ever since with the old R/G Sligh thread, I made it a point that you should NEVER run cards in the deck which might be dead in certain MU's. Skyshroud War Beast is one of those cards.

It all depends on your meta, of course... If you rarely see basics, then it's a great back-up beater to Goyf. In a random meta though, it's at best an SB option, though I personally won't be using SB slots on a beater.

You can make the same argument with price of progress, I play it as a 3 of and it's rarly if ever "dead". I don't think warbeast would be a good choice because your opponent will already be playing around POP and there NB land count will already be low.

josch
12-05-2007, 11:47 AM
The difference between the War Beast and PoP is that the PoP is a good deal if the oponant has 2 (or more) nonbasics the Warbeast needs at least 3 of them to be accepteble. I thought it was a god choise, becouse peple tend to play much more nonbasics than needed when they play a more casual style.

kicks_422
12-05-2007, 04:54 PM
The difference between the War Beast and PoP is that the PoP is a good deal if the oponant has 2 (or more) nonbasics the Warbeast needs at least 3 of them to be accepteble.

He hit it right there. There's a lot of space in the deck for burn that PoP can just fill up the space, and even getting just 2 damage off of it is already fine. War Beast on the other hand is competing for creature slots, which demands much more than just a 1/1 trampler at times. Sure, it can get really big, but I think the conditional burn of PoP is far better than the conditional beats of War Beast.

Wallace
12-05-2007, 05:13 PM
He hit it right there. There's a lot of space in the deck for burn that PoP can just fill up the space, and even getting just 2 damage off of it is already fine. War Beast on the other hand is competing for creature slots, which demands much more than just a 1/1 trampler at times. Sure, it can get really big, but I think the conditional burn of PoP is far better than the conditional beats of War Beast.

Thats what I was trying to say, POP is a proven card and the creature base in this deck is pretty tight already. I really don't know how much play war Beast will see over the other creature already compeating for a spot in this deck.

zander1
12-06-2007, 10:18 AM
Another difference between POP and Warbeast is, that POP is totally unespected. You wait with it a couple of rounds and than you play it for 4 or even more damage. But when you play warbeast you can be sure that they play around it.

FakeSpam
12-06-2007, 03:49 PM
Unexpected? There are burn spells in the deck. They will know something is up as soon as you bolt them.

zander1
12-07-2007, 06:48 AM
Unexpected? There are burn spells in the deck. They will know something is up as soon as you bolt them.

I meant that they don't see it coming and so they will play all their nonbasics they've got.Why should they stop playing their nonbasics only because they see a bolt or a grim lavamancer. It doesn't tell them anything about your cards. But a second turn warbeast will show them to do otherwise, because it's obvious.

Sims
12-07-2007, 02:52 PM
I meant that they don't see it coming and so they will play all their nonbasics they've got.Why should they stop playing their nonbasics only because they see a bolt or a grim lavamancer. It doesn't tell them anything about your cards. But a second turn warbeast will show them to do otherwise, because it's obvious.


Unless I seriously can't help it, if my opponent shows basic mountains and burn spells at all, I play around Price of Progress. I've played enough variants of Red/X based aggro, sligh, burn, etc. to know that, unless the players cardpool is suffering or the metagame normally presents only mono-colored and 2-color decks, Price of Progress is in the deck somewhere between the main and side.

Wallace
12-07-2007, 03:32 PM
I meant that they don't see it coming and so they will play all their nonbasics they've got.Why should they stop playing their nonbasics only because they see a bolt or a grim lavamancer. It doesn't tell them anything about your cards. But a second turn warbeast will show them to do otherwise, because it's obvious.


IDK man, If my opponent is running any sort of burn deck, R/G Aggro, or any other aggro deck that has mountains in it, I play around POP. Any compatent Legacy player know that POP is played and thus, plays around it.

Wallace
01-07-2008, 05:41 PM
Went 4-2 at the Winter Wonderland Event.

I lost to RGBSA (Mulletus) rnd. 1, Smashed him game 1, game 3 he goes turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Therapy, turn 3 Threapy, had him at 3 in game 2, needed any burn spell FTW, drew land, he gained life with feeder. Game 3 I got him with in alpha strike range, he gained 7 life (Spike Feeder + Darkheart Sliver), he was at 3, gained more life next turn, GG.

Got the bye in rnd. 2

Lost to Akki rnd 3. He was playing enchantress, I had more trouble with land. Got him to 1 in the first game, he got Confinement lock. I take game two with any land off the top, I draw a burn spell insted, he finishs at 3 again.

Rnd 4 I beat Alix Hatfield playing Breakfast. Really wasn't a game, smashed him games 1 & 2. He didn't seem to draw very well.

Rnd 5 I beat A Legend playing Hulk-a-mania. He wins game one on a sick draw, he goes off turn 3 aqnd wins. I drop a turn one Needle calling Feeder and he proceeds to draw nothing relavent I win in like 4 turns. Game 3 was more of the same, I drop turn 2 Needle calling Feeder, he plays show and tell, I drop another needle naming Kiki. I burn him out a few turns later.

Rnd 6 I play Jesse Hatfield, playing Landstill, I think. I don't remember much about the games. I won 2-0, I know Grim Lavamancer was big in both games.

I finished in 11th, ntb. On a fun note I didn't cast a single Tarmogoyf all day, not 1. Here is the list that I played:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Reckless Abandon

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
8 Mountain

Side Board:
4 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon

Watcher487
01-07-2008, 05:52 PM
I finished in 11th, ntb. On a fun note I didn't cast a single Tarmogoyf all day, not 1. Here is the list that I played:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Reckless Abandon

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
12 Mountain

Side Board:
4 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroclasm
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon

I can see how you didn't cast a Goyf, no Taigas.... j/k congrads on the Top 16 after going 1-2. How did Reckless Abandon work out for ya?

Wallace
01-07-2008, 05:56 PM
I can see how you didn't cast a Goyf, no Taigas.... j/k congrads on the Top 16 after going 1-2. How did Reckless Abandon work out for ya?

No man, Goyf is so good you can cast hime with no green mana...true story.

Another spell I only cast once, did 5 damage off a Keldon Marauder so it was hot. I will test it some more, I think I likes though, turns extra lavamancers into 4 damage and makes Marauder's a little better...

Peter_Rotten
01-07-2008, 07:08 PM
Any coincidence between this:


Went 4-2 at the Winter Wonderland Event.

...had him at 3 in game 2, needed any burn spell FTW, drew land ...

...I had more trouble with land. Got him to 1 in the first game...

...I take game two with any land off the top, I draw a burn spell insted, he finishs at 3 again.

...and no Magma Jet in your list? Possibly. I still firmly support Jet to smooth those draws.

edgewalker
01-07-2008, 08:29 PM
PR, I agree that there is a need for Magma Jet, but I'm curious as to what you would take out of Sacreues' list, or even the standard lists? Lava Spike? Rift Bolt? Or some combination of cards?

P.S. Dinner on the 21st?

Wallace
01-07-2008, 08:37 PM
Any coincidence between this:



...and no Magma Jet in your list? Possibly. I still firmly support Jet to smooth those draws.


One of the games I only had one mana on the table so Magma Jet would have done nothing, onr of the other game I had 3 land on top to end the game so Jet would be no help. I just can't see spending :1::r: to do 2 damage, I don't like to spend that much on 3 damage. I have added Magma Jet to my burn List how ever and it seems to be ok there.

My goyf Sligh lis works very well when I draw 2 mana sources, no more no less. The hand I kept against Akki game two was solid: Taiga, Bolt, Spike, rift bolt, Kird Ape, Reckless Abandon, Keldon Marauders (KM). If the Taiga was a mountain I would have mulled. I drew another Abandon and KM followed by a Bolt and a Fireblast. My final draw was a Fireblast...Turn 1 Ape into turn two Rift bolt, swing for 2 (18). Yurn 2 I swing for 2 and Lava Spike him to 13. Turn 3 I swing and chain him to 8. Here is where I nned a mountain ftw and wiff, he drop a confinement on his turn and locks down the game.

kicks_422
01-08-2008, 02:31 AM
What's the reason for the 2 Pyroclasms and 1 Pyrokinesis in the board? Empty the Warrens?... You can just run Tremor if that's the case.

Wallace
01-08-2008, 04:13 PM
What's the reason for the 2 Pyroclasms and 1 Pyrokinesis in the board? Empty the Warrens?... You can just run Tremor if that's the case.

Pyroclasm comes in handy against many of my meta match ups. I bring them in against Sui Black, ETW Combo, Survival and goblins. The Pyrokinesis was a test in the board, I found that in a few games I needed to cast a "sweeper" or just kill one dude and have mana left open to cast a burn spell FTW. I only brought it in once and didn't really get a chance to test it...

JDunkin00
01-12-2008, 01:05 PM
What's the reason for the 2 Pyroclasms and 1 Pyrokinesis in the board? Empty the Warrens?... You can just run Tremor if that's the case.

pyrokinesis hits just thiers without putting yours at risk. Also necessary against suiblack as was stated.

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