[Deck] UWx Countertop Solution

[badjuju]

Hey guys,

I'm fairly new to Legacy and have been scouting both forums and tournament reports for decks that I like to play. When I found a list that featured Trinket Mages and Exalted Angels, I was immediately enticed. I had played Solution.dec for a while back in extended and was very fond of the toolbox package the deck offered. Coupled with the ability to fetch Sensei's Divining Top and continually abuse Counterbalance, this was the kind of deck I knew would find its port to Legacy. While more control than aggro, the deck plays a variety of 2/2 bears that have extrordinary abilities, coupled with cheap counterspells, cantrips, and removal before sealing the game with the countertop combo and a finisher of your choice. The deck can be directly compared to Threshold since its gameplan functions somewhat similarly. However, where Threshold has a more powerful ground plan, Countertop tries to toolbox for answers and run creatures that either disrupt, hold the ground, or draw cards instead.

Solution has various incarnations and can be tuned against various metagames. The base colors are generally blue and white with a splash of either black or red. The decks earlier in the year lean more towards red, but in the more recent tournaments UWB countertop has been proven to be more popular, most likely to deal with several metagame shifts and in particular the rise of graveyard-based decks.

The deck, for some reason, receives very little attention but has also placed very high (1st place, most of the time) in several events. Note that this deck has a very close correlation with 'Trinket Angels' and should probably be viewed as a variant of the same archetype. Here is a list of relevant finishes all within the past year in order of chronology:


UWr Trinket Angels
by Wolfgang Röchner
# Event: Bazaar-Liga Legacy März 2007
# Date: 18.03.2007
# Place: 1st
# Participants: 76
(top 8 consisted mostly of non-combo decks)

4 Lightning Angel
4 Meddling Mage
3 Silver Knight
4 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance

3 Chrome Mox
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

2 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Stifle
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt

The first major countertop list of the year. Features Lightning Angel as a finisher as well as some questionable card choices. Chrome Mox, I believe, is not a card that belongs because the deck is based off virtual card advantage. Speed isn't as large of a concern as making sure every one of your cards counts. 3 Sensei's Diving Top is too many, since you can fetch the card with Trinket Mage already, 4 Counterbalance is excessive since you'll never need more than one, 3 Force of Will should most likely have been 4, and Cursed Scroll is most likely unnecessary. Absence of Spell Snare is also noteworthy.


UWr Solution
by Tom v/d Logt
# Event: Vooral Vaardig GP Columbus Tournament
# Date: 08.04.2007
# Place: 1st
# Participants: 120

3 Exalted Angel
4 Meddling Mage
4 Silver Knight
3 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
2 Fire / Ice
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Counterbalance

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Ancient Den
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Disenchant
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Engineered Explosives

First place finish in a huge tournament. This deck is very unique in that it runs Exalted Angel as a finisher along with the absence of Force of Will. The Top 16 for the tournament was very healthy, featuring Belcher, Terrageddon, Affinity, Solidarity, Threshold, Goblins, Fish, and UW control, meaning that the deck had to fight through a very diverse metagame to reach first place. The deck, however, does pack answers for almost anything it faces, especially post-board. Kataki versus Affinity, Jotun Grunt versus graveyard decks, and REB's / BEB's for control and even as target removal against Goblins. Noteworthy points: Counterbalance cut down to 3, no more Cursed Scroll, 1 Ancient Den / Seat of the Synod for Trinket Mage to tutor out, and use of red for Fire/Ice as well as REB.


UWB CounterTop
by Jason Jaco
# Event: GenCon 2007 - Legacy Championships Prelim Tournament
# Date: 17.08.2007
# Place: 3rd / 4th

4 Dark Confidant
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
4 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Counterbalance

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

1 Stifle
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague

I don't know what the metagame was at Gencon, but the top 8 for this prelim was fairly healthy as well, having Threshold, Alluren, Landstill, and Vial Goblins. The shift to black offers many advantages: Dark Confidant, Duress, and Engineered Plague. Where red offered cards that are "decent", black offers cards that can break a matchup or push you into favor. Note the prevalence of graveyard based decks most likely incited the change from angels to Jotun Grunt + Jitte as the primary win condition as well as an increase in the number of Tormod's Crypts seen in the sideboards.

UWB Countertop
by Raul Talavera
# Event: 1 Torneo Liga Petrerense de Legacy
# Date: 30.09.2007
# Place: 1st
# Participants: 40

4 Dark Confidant
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
4 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Counterbalance

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Spell Snare

Another recent variant that took first. The only major change is the inclusion of Spell Snare MD and shifting the Stifles to the board. Spell Snare hits tons of key spells against virtually every deck, whereas Stifle is only situationally good (although amazing against combo).

The Anti-Goyf Disclaimer:
The deck is different enough to be considered its own archetype and not part of Tarmobalance or Baseruption. By not forcing yourself to run green for goyf, you gain access to more spells from black and white, sacrificing a speedier kill for spells that shore up the matchup. I have no direct argument against goyf's inclusion in the deck, but if you wanted to do something like that, you might as well just play Threshold to best abuse the graveyard and plethora of cheap cantrips. This deck revolves around the three wizards (Confidant, Meddling, and Trinket) more than anything else; running all three along with goyf would hurt the mana base immensely.

Now moving on to the deck, I believe UWB is the correct direction to take the deck. Let's start with the core cards then move on to

the splashes and variants:

CORE
-------

Creature Base

4 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Trinket tutors for silver bullents and top for the Countertop combo, Confidant draws cards, and Meddling disrupts your opponent's game plan. These three wizards are all very powerful and very cheap, fleshing out the colors and pinpointing the power of the deck.

Spell Base

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare / 3 Stifle

Brainstorm is there for obvious reasons as is Force of Will. You won't find very many blue-based decks with the two. Swords to Plowshares is the most efficient and undercosted removal in the game. Counterbalance is the namesake lock of the deck. I'd take Spell Snare over Stifle because it hits more things in more matchups, but if storm combo is an issue where you are, MD Stifle may be the correct choice.

Primary Win Conditions

2 Jotun Grunt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Jotun Grunt doubles as graveyard hate and is huge for its cost. Umezawa's Jitte can be combined with any of the other creatures to end the game quickly.

Possible Trinket Mage Targets

Sensei's Divining Top
Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives
Tormod's Crypt
Ancient Den
Seat of the Synod

Chalice of the Void
Cursed Scroll
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Scrabbling Claws

Top is self explanatory, helping to dig deeper, fix draws, and combo with Counterbalance. Pithing Needle shuts down important activated abilities such as Goblin Charbelcher or AEther Vial. Engineered Explosives wipes the board clean and deals with Empty the Warrens tokens. A well-timed Tormod's Crypt can destroy graveyard-based strategies. Ancient Den and Seat of of the Synod provide ways to retrieve mana should you ever need to.

Mana Base

I haven't figured out the ratios and whatnot, but I'll get to that when I can. If anyone has anything noteworthy to say about the mana bases, please do mention.

SPLASHES
---------

RED offers -
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Fire/Ice
Lightning Angel
+various artifact removal spells

BLACK offers -
Dark Confidant
Duress
Thoughtseize (most likely replacing Duress)
Engineered Plague
+various discard and graveyard hate spells


PREFERENCE CARDS
---------------------

Exalted Angel
Silver Knight
Disenchant
Seal of Cleansing

CURRENT LIST (for reference)

4 Dark Confidant
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage
4 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughseize
3 Counterbalance

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void


Quick Matchup Analysis
Let me start by saying that I have not actually played this deck in a tournament, nor have I extensively tested it. These are purely theory, once people start giving more input and I get a playtesting group going, then I'll have more detailed and specific write ups.

The deck, in theory, has a fighting chance against the entire field. The nature of toolbox decks is to have the ability to quickly, cheaply, and efficiently deal with a multitude of threats. I can't see this deck having any dreadfully terrible matchups, as such I won't be posting percentages till I've actually done extensive testing.

Aggro
The deck has all the answers it needs to deal with most aggro decks. However, the threat density of aggro may overrun this deck. Key plays will most likely involve Spell Snaring and Swords to Plowsharing high priority threats and popping EE for a positive net gain. Jitte on its own can hold back aggro fairly well and having countertop online will make it very hard for unprepared aggro decks to resolve key creatures and spells.

Aggro Control
Is probably the toughest matchup depending. Decks like Threshold are very similar to this deck but do the non-toolbox part much more efficiently. They have more counterspells, more removal, more cantrips, and stronger creatures. I would have to say that it comes down to playskill and draws; however, having MD countertop is a strong advantage.

Control
I would consider favorable. Your creature base is cheap and each cannot be ignored because of their built in abilities. If you can resolve and protect a Dark Confidant, the card advantage gain will completely turn the game in your favor. Setting up countertop is a huge priority that will stop your opponent from answering your spells, allowing you to ride to victory unharmed.

Combo
Favorable. You have all the cards that combo does not want to see, Force of Will, Thoughseize, Duress, Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, Stifle, Tormod's Crypt, and Meddling Mage. Not to mention, you can tailor your board to include whatever else you should need, from Extirpates all the way to Cabal Therapies.


This is all I can think of writing for now. I'd post a matchup analysis, but I really haven't tested the deck thoroughly enough yet. This is just to hopefully get some discussion rolling and maybe create another powerful archetype for future tournament play.

If there is anything wrong with the above information (especially in the matchups section) please post so that I may change the info.

Cheers.

[etrigan]

Chalice of the Void should be considered as another Trinket Mage target. There are a lot of match ups where cutting off a casting cost is back breaking. Just do it when you have a threat on the board, and the value of his cards shut off outweighs the value of yours.

[Maveric78f]

I would play more grunts than you do. It's your only defense against tarmogoyf and threshold creatures and you might even want to play several of them. It's precious against gob too, as a consistant jitte wearer.

[Aggro_zombies]

I had a deck like this that I stopped working on pre-Future Sight. My only changes now would be to test Meadowgrain Knight main.

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [PT] Island (2)
1 [US] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Silver Knight
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Pyroclasm and Silver Knights were there to deal with Goblins, but now that those are less prevalent I'd consider running Morningtides and more evasive guys, plus Condemn. I never liked Confidant in the deck, but with Jitte he could be good. Another thing to run if you're in black and packing Jittes is Dimir Infiltrator, since it can transmute for them (and Counterbalance as well) and it's unblockable.

Just thought I'd throw this up there in case you were interested. It had a positive matchup versus aggro-control when I played it, and a good games two and three versus Goblins, but that was all before Goyf was printed.

[thefreakaccident]

That was a nice write up, very informative... I also hate the fact that Tarmogoyf is appearing everywhere, but it seems to be a necessary evil nowadays...

Do you have any reason not to run red over black or is it just a preference thing? Personally I beleive that red is only better in an aggro-meta... but those days are almost gone, and the only thing that we'll see that's close to aggro, is Tarmogoyf...

I think that since you are running trinket mage, you might as well have a tutorable wincon in the form of phyrexian dreadnought... you would just need to run more stifle effects.

You may want to provide MU annalyses when you get the chance, so people know more to make wise choices about the deck (whether they should consider it or not)... and the more people you get into the deck the quicker it will be to get a finalized list... just my 2 cents.

[badjuju]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Let's begin shall we?

@etrigan

Chalice of the Void should definitely be considered. It was run as a one of in one of the lists I posted. I agree that it'd be a nice inclusion, I was just afraid of what you'd want to set it at. Chalice for 1 nullifies a good number of your spells, 2 nullifies your win conditions. I suppose chalice for 1 puts combo in a jam, so that alone is probably worth it. Still, for that kind of versatility I would gladly sacrifice one slot in the board.

@Maveric78f

Grunts are excellent, yes, but you usually don't want too many floating around. As good as they are, they do become costly to keep around. If your opponent sees this, they can play around it. I'd agree however, that if your metagame carries a lot of thresh and/or aggro, to move the number up to 3 or include another win condition (ie Exalted Angel).

@Aggro_Zombies

Thanks for your list, but I think it veers a bit too far off from what this deck is trying to do (which I will explain in a second).

-Dark Confidant is a card advantage powerhouse and is one of the primary reasons to even consider black in the first place.
-Morningtide is overkill with grunts and crypts.
-Condemn is nice, but StP hits things even when they don't attack. I don't believe we need more than said removal spells, but if you have lots of aggro problems I'd consider it.
-The creature base would've been fine pre-Future Sight, but the introduction of Tarmogoyf has literally stumped all other win conditions. Doing tricks with Stonecloaker and Trinket Mage probably isn't the best use of mana and won't save you from goyf bulldozing through your frontline.
-Evasion isn't what the deck needs. The deck is a control aggro deck, not an aggro control deck. The first and foremost focus is to neutralize your opponent's threats and aim towards locking them out of the game with the countertop combo. Once you've reached that point, you can go ahead and win with whatever you have. The deck's creatures can be used to attack, but their primary function is what's written in their textboxes -- put yourself ahead of your opponent before going in for the kill.

@thefreakaccident

I wrote that I prefer black much more over red, reason being is that red doesn't offer anything powerful against the current decks in the metagame. Also, red doesn't offer anything that black and white can't already give. The inclusion of black, however, allows you to constantly draw cards, Thoughtseize your opponent, and have extremely powerful post-board cards.

There were a few Dreadnought decks that I saw, and yes, it's a perfectly fine win condition. Overall, I think I still need to test out various win conditions just to see which work best.



Once again, thanks for the suggestions everyone. I will continue to do more research and post new insights / changes / tournament finishes to the deck.


1st post edits:
-added CotV to trinket target list
-current decklist
-short matchup analysis

[outsideangel]

If the deck is going to run E.E. and Crypt main I think Academy Ruins might warrant a spot as a singleton to continually abuse them.

I am also of the opinion that Thoughtseize is going to be better than Stifle/Spell Snare is almost any sitution, if only because it works on any problem card, from Tarmogoyf to Tendrils.

[Media314r8]

Why chalice should be included in EVERY deck that runs Trinket mage, either MB (preferably) or SB:

1. Combo: ever seen a TES list: 4 chome mox, 4 lotus petal, 4 LED chalice for 0 costs nothing, can be played the same turn as mage, and buys you at LEAST a turn while they wish for shattering spree to break through or look for enough other mana sources to combo around it.

2. Thresh: 4 brainstorm, 4 opt, 4 ponder, 4 spell snare, 4 bolt, 4 mongoose... you have 4 StP 4 brainstorms and 3 Tops (one of which is probably allready down)

3. Oddball decks like 9 land stompy... where all their cards cost G. Chalice while they dont have a threat on board = win.

Just those three (especially given the prevalecne of storm based combo) seems like mora than enough reason to run at least 1 chalcie SB, if not tuorable main.

[FakeSpam]

Why chalice should be included in EVERY deck that runs Trinket mage, either MB (preferably) or SB:

I disagree.


1. Combo: ever seen a TES list: 4 chome mox, 4 lotus petal, 4 LED chalice for 0 costs nothing, can be played the same turn as mage, and buys you at LEAST a turn while they wish for shattering spree to break through or look for enough other mana sources to combo around it.

Assuming you need to use trinket mage to find the chalice, they have already had plenty of time to kill you.


2. Thresh: 4 brainstorm, 4 opt, 4 ponder, 4 spell snare, 4 bolt, 4 mongoose... you have 4 StP 4 brainstorms and 3 Tops (one of which is probably allready down)

And dropping it for 1 gets rid of your answer for their beaters. That cost two. I guess it isn't all that bad of an idea, since you take so many cards offline. Much better on the play. Still, if you have to mage for it, it's too late.


3. Oddball decks like 9 land stompy... where all their cards cost G. Chalice while they dont have a threat on board = win.

It's also good against burn.


Just those three (especially given the prevalecne of storm based combo) seems like mora than enough reason to run at least 1 chalcie SB, if not tuorable main.

The math doesn't work properly. By the time you get it out, it isn't doing anything important. Also, it's doing the same thing as counter/top at this point. Counter/top also doesn't shut down your own spells.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'd have to agree with Fakespam on his points. The reason that Trinket Mage -> Chalice in things like Faerie Stompy was because it was a turn 1 play (Chrome, Tomb/City -> Mage -> Chalice @ 0), which is fast enough.

Here, your looking at turn 3, in which TES should have won (or has cards on the table), Thresh has played threats and cantrips, and you've also given enough time for decks to get their protection against it online (counterspells, etc), rather than just FoW.

[Aggro_zombies]

@Aggro_Zombies

Thanks for your list, but I think it veers a bit too far off from what this deck is trying to do (which I will explain in a second).

-Dark Confidant is a card advantage powerhouse and is one of the primary reasons to even consider black in the first place.
-Morningtide is overkill with grunts and crypts.
-Condemn is nice, but StP hits things even when they don't attack. I don't believe we need more than said removal spells, but if you have lots of aggro problems I'd consider it.
-The creature base would've been fine pre-Future Sight, but the introduction of Tarmogoyf has literally stumped all other win conditions. Doing tricks with Stonecloaker and Trinket Mage probably isn't the best use of mana and won't save you from goyf bulldozing through your frontline.
-Evasion isn't what the deck needs. The deck is a control aggro deck, not an aggro control deck. The first and foremost focus is to neutralize your opponent's threats and aim towards locking them out of the game with the countertop combo. Once you've reached that point, you can go ahead and win with whatever you have. The deck's creatures can be used to attack, but their primary function is what's written in their textboxes -- put yourself ahead of your opponent before going in for the kill.
The first thing that came to my mind after reading this was, "Why not just splash green for Goyf?" If Goyf is so good, aren't you doing yourself a disservice by not running it? You're basically saying, "I'm not going to run the best creature in the format because I'd rather run some subpar creatures instead in addition to some conditional hate, and hope that all of that together will win me the game." It seems like the best thing to do would be to just run Goyf and win. In that case, why not go UGB? You'd have Bob, you'd have Goyf, you'd have your CounterTop engine, and you could still run graveyard hate. You'd basically only lose Swords and Mage, the former of which has lots of analogues in black and the latter of which is fairly unique, but unnecessary imo if you're going for the Counterbalance lock.

If you're going to insist on staying in white, I'd suggest trying Azorius Guildmage. :2::w: to tap something is a bit steep, but you're going for a control approach here (read: long game) and you can think of it being a bit like a Rishadan Port that ports Goyfs instead. Also, the :2::u: Stifle ability can be randomly useful, and it's a bear at worst with a very flexible mana cost. Threads of Disloyalty should be somewhere in this deck, in the board if not the main depending on how much Thresh you expect. Also, if you're in white and black, why aren't you running Spectral Lynx? It has Pro: Goyf and regenerates against anything else, which makes is a pretty good creature in my book as far as control-aggro is concerned.

[badjuju]

The first thing that came to my mind after reading this was, "Why not just splash green for Goyf?" If Goyf is so good, aren't you doing yourself a disservice by not running it? You're basically saying, "I'm not going to run the best creature in the format because I'd rather run some subpar creatures instead in addition to some conditional hate, and hope that all of that together will win me the game." It seems like the best thing to do would be to just run Goyf and win. In that case, why not go UGB? You'd have Bob, you'd have Goyf, you'd have your CounterTop engine, and you could still run graveyard hate. You'd basically only lose Swords and Mage, the former of which has lots of analogues in black and the latter of which is fairly unique, but unnecessary imo if you're going for the Counterbalance lock.

If you're going to insist on staying in white, I'd suggest trying Azorius Guildmage. :2::w: to tap something is a bit steep, but you're going for a control approach here (read: long game) and you can think of it being a bit like a Rishadan Port that ports Goyfs instead. Also, the :2::u: Stifle ability can be randomly useful, and it's a bear at worst with a very flexible mana cost. Threads of Disloyalty should be somewhere in this deck, in the board if not the main depending on how much Thresh you expect. Also, if you're in white and black, why aren't you running Spectral Lynx? It has Pro: Goyf and regenerates against anything else, which makes is a pretty good creature in my book as far as control-aggro is concerned.


/sigh. I knew this would pop up, so let me re-quote myself for emphasis.


The Anti-Goyf Disclaimer:
The deck is different enough to be considered its own archetype and not part of Tarmobalance or Baseruption. By not forcing yourself to run green for goyf, you gain access to more spells from black and white, sacrificing a speedier kill for spells that shore up the matchup. I have no direct argument against goyf's inclusion in the deck, but if you wanted to do something like that, you might as well just play Threshold to best abuse the graveyard and plethora of cheap cantrips. This deck revolves around the three wizards (Confidant, Meddling, and Trinket) more than anything else; running all three along with goyf would hurt the mana base immensely.

From a certain standpoint, yes, why not just run goyf and streamline. At that point you lose a lot of options against various decks because white is gone. Thresh actually has a very poor matchup against decks like Ichorid, whereas cards such as Jotun Grunt can completely turn the matchup in your favor; I think he's one of the primary reasons the deck would be amazing in the metagame. But I digress. I am not choosing to run "subpar" creatures, I am choosing to run creatures that find and/or are answers. Trinket Mage is the key card in this deck, allowing you to actively search for outs and top for the lock. Once again, this is a toolbox control-aggro deck.

As for the other creatures, I still have to test the deck thoroughly to see what it needs. There isn't very much room and inserting Azorious Guildmage or Spectral Lynx means cutting core spells and creatures. At the very least, you can argue that the deck already has built in answers against Threshold via Meddling Mage on goyf, StP, Jotun Grunt as well as MD countertop lock.

Once again, this is all just speculative argument. Thanks again for your input though, it is greatly appreciated. I will test the deck as is and if I start to have trouble against creature-based strategies, I'll look into Spectral Lynx and Azorious Guildmage.

[Aggro_zombies]

Once again, this is all just speculative argument. Thanks again for your input though, it is greatly appreciated. I will test the deck as is and if I start to have trouble against creature-based strategies, I'll look into Spectral Lynx and Azorious Guildmage.
The deck did have problems with creatures, that's why I mentioned it. In the absence of burn sweepers like Pyroclasm, you're going to need to be able to deal with these things. Unless you can drop Counterbalance turn two every game with a two cc card on top of your library, you're going to have to face the fact that sometimes, the opponent will get a Goyf in play before you do and beat you into a pulp with it. Also note that a lot of thresh decks are packing stuff like Krosan Grip out of the board specifically to deal with CounterTop, and a lot of them have answers to Mage in multiples. The best thing I've found a deck like this could have was redundancy. Your threats are basically subpar to Goyf, so if you're going to try to ride them to victory in the face of both removal and better creatures, you need some way to deal with one or the other of your opponent's counter-strategies. Kira, Great Glass Spinner deals with removal but doesn't play well with Jitte, and stuff like the Guildmage and Lynx deal with the latter. Hence my earlier point about evasive beaters...if you can get one guy connecting regularly, and the rest can block your opponent's threats into eternity, you're going to win.

Also, your build in the opening post runs fewer counters than I would like to see. Thresh decks run at least as many, if not more, counters than you do - Force, Daze, and Spell Snare in addition to Krosan Grips and Mages of their own (versus white) make resolving and protecting a Counterbalance an uphill struggle for you. That's why I had Chants in my board in the list I posted - they're basically cover under which to resolve CB against a deck that doesn't want to see it and has the clout to say "no." And don't say that you can always try again later - even one turn later can be game over for you depending on what Thresh does in the interim. Counterbalance doesn't mop up threats that have already resolved.

I should mention that it is virtually impossible to realistically resolve Counterbalance against Thresh before turn three, since you'll have to play around Daze. Also note that they can counter your Thoughtseize or simply use Brainstorm to "hide" cards, like counters, that they don't want you to see. Once games two and three roll around and your opponent knows what you're playing, you've lost the biggest advantage you had (surprise factor).

Black has Leyline of the Void and Planar Void. Both of those are better than Grunt in many ways because they don't self-destruct after a few turns.

[FakeSpam]

Black has Leyline of the Void and Planar Void. Both of those are better than Grunt in many ways because they don't self-destruct after a few turns.

Grunt recycles trinkets to be re-fetched.

I would love to see a deck that ran Aven Mindscensor. It would be a fine fit in here. That guy is amazing.

[Aggro_zombies]

Grunt recycles trinkets to be re-fetched.

I would love to see a deck that ran Aven Mindscensor. It would be a fine fit in here. That guy is amazing.
Academy Ruins does the same thing, but doesn't require a way to reuse Trinket Mage. The more important issue with Grunt is that it recycles guys who get killed. I'm just suspicious about the viability of a creature that essentially has Vanishing 3-4 or so.

What would you use Mindcensor against? Fetchlands? It seems bad against stuff that isn't tutor-based combo.

[FakeSpam]

every deck tutors for stuff.

One, fetchlands. Yeah. That is a big one.

Breakfast plays Worldly Tutor.

Enchantress plays Sterling Grove.

Survival of the Fittest plays... yeah.

Hell, this deck runs Trinket Mage.

Then, storm combo has that pesky infernal tutor.

Crop Rotation, etc..

The land thing alone would make him worth it. There is a lot of disruption in that little body.

[JACO]

Hey there, this is Jaco, the person who created the UBW TrinketTop deck in the top 8 of the GenCon prelim tourney. I actually finished 3rd/4th slot, beating Vroman in the top 8 before losing to Alix Hatfield, but the Germagic.de thing screws up some results reporting unfortunately. Thank you for taking the time to write out this look at different variations of the Trinket Mage/Solution archetype. It's a nice introduction for those who haven't been exposed to the decks(s).

You'll notice that Raul's deck from Torneo tourney was actually the exact same as mine, with the following changes:
-3 Stifle
+3 Spell Snare

I was expecting quite a bit more combo than I encountered in the tournament, so I played Stifle main that day. After Threshold beat me in the Top 8, I didn't feel like losing to it again, so I played a mix of Spell Snares, with additional Diabolic Edicts in the sideboard, in my next tournament. Threshold usually only has 10-12 threats you have to deal with, and Tarmogoyf is the only one that really matters. Spell Snare counters almost everything relevant against Threshold (Tarmogoyf, potentially Werebear, Counterspell, Counterbalance), so it belongs in the main when playing in a Threshold and blue based aggro control infested field. I heartily endorse Raul's version, and my version is nearly identical (including Stifle in the sideboard). I'll address a few more comments now.

Q&A with Jaco

Chalice of the Void should be considered as another Trinket Mage target. There are a lot of match ups where cutting off a casting cost is back breaking. Just do it when you have a threat on the board, and the value of his cards shut off outweighs the value of yours.I had 1 Chalice of the Void in my sideboard, almost always to board in exclusively against storm combo, Charbelcher, burn, or Boros. You really don't need it or want it against anything else, as it gets in your way most other games, and you would usually rather Trinket Mage for something else against all other decks. Chalice, coupled with CounterTop combo and/or Stifle, is pretty quick to lock out pretty much all of the combo decks. Chalice, couple with Jitte and/or CounterTop combo, is pretty quick to lock out burn and Boros Deck Wins type creations.


I think that since you are running trinket mage, you might as well have a tutorable wincon in the form of phyrexian dreadnought... you would just need to run more stifle effects.Again, Phyrexian Dreadnought was in my sideboard as well, as a 1 of. You don't want more than that, because there are only specific situations where you want to Trinket Mage for it (when you are sure your opponent has no removal, or when you absolutely need a quick clock, such as against combo).


I would love to see a deck that ran Aven Mindscensor. It would be a fine fit in here. That guy is amazing.I actually have tested them in here and in the sideboard, because Mindcensor is the shit in Vintage, and unlike Vintage, I just don't want them in enough situations, as this is not Vintage where everybody is tutoring every turn or two. He just isn't useful often enough. The other problem is, what creature or spells are you going to cut in its place? To me, every creature I utilize has a more important role in the deck, and is more powerful against the Legacy field at this time.


Jotun Grunt sucks...no Jotun Grunt is the shiznit...well how many Grunts do you really want or need?Jotun Grunt is important because it provides a good blocker at 2 mana, recycles threats, lands, and Trinket Mage targets, and also is a great top deck in the midgame, when people have decent size graveyards. 2 is the minimum I would recommend, and 3 if you play in an area with a lot of Threshold and/or Ichorid From Below, as it is a royal pain in the ass for Threshold to deal with if it hits the board. 4 is too many in any metagame, as it will often die too quickly, or clog up your hand when you don't need it.
/Q&A

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a deck that rewards tight play, and can be metagamed a few different ways to be highly competitive in any field. It plays arguably 3 of the top 6 creatures in Magic (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=173166&postcount=11), pretty much destroys combo, and has above average game against other aggro control. Littering it up with things like Daze, Mother of Runes, Condemn, Serra Avenger, and crap like Ponder is just going to weaken the deck. While I love Wasteland, the deck is quite colored mana hungry, so unfortunately there is no room. If I was to add any other lands at all, it would be a singleton Academy Ruins, for things like Engineered Explosives recursion. Again, you are going to get the very most out of this deck if you can consistently make few or no mistakes when playing out the first few turns. Yes, there are decision trees and blah blah blah, but there is only one correct play in each circumstance, and you have to understand that to play this type of deck effectively. When to tap out, when to play Counterbalance, when to go aggresive, when to trade creatures, etc. That is one of my favorite aspects of the deck, is that it challenges you and helps keep your Magic skills sharp, as you often have to be thinking 3-5 turns ahead, and the possible and most likely plays of your opponent.

One thing that to keep in mind is that when I designed the deck I didn't want it to be too reliant on Trinket Mage, and have a bunch of crappy singletons floating around in the main, that are often useless. It is supposed to be a collection of undercosted, flexible, and powerful effects in the 3 best colors of Magic, can shut down other strategies entirely, and has it's own mini combos and synergies (Trinket Mage + trinkets, Grunt + trinkets, Dark Confidant + SDT, Counterbalance + SDT, etc.). It can play the aggro control roles just as well as any other deck in Legacy, and can even play combo if you want to push the Dreadnought angle (which I've done in another version of this deck to increase the speed of potential kills, which also has a stronger mana denial element).

[badjuju]

Thanks so much Jaco, I'm glad to see a champion pilot come forth and explain the deck better.

Indeed this is a deck that rewards tight playing, especially with so many different options in the early turns. Tapping out for the wrong reasons will result in a swift defeat. However, the deck carries cheap, powerful answers that rewards outplaying your opponent. This was the point I was trying to get across to the others: that the deck really doesn't have that much room for REAL "subpar" creatures. As Jaco mentioned, the deck already runs a handful of the most powerful creatures ever printed, so I was a bit confused when they were considered "worse" than Tarmogoyf. We could go on for entire pages discussing why Tarmogoyf is so good, but that isn't the focus of this deck. In the end, he's a vanilla that is pumped with a large graveyard (which this deck doesn't consistently do), has anti-synergy with Jotun Grunt, and requires green (putting too much of a strain on the mana base). For these reasons and more, we will be EXCLUDING TARMOGOYF FROM THE ARCHETYPE.
If you want Tarmogoyf to be included, please create another thread called Baseruption or Tarmobalance.

/end Tarmogoyf rant

Anyways, @ Jaco, I have some questions myself.

-Regarding the decklist, is there anything you would change? When I saw the list, I couldn't think of anything I would really alter, honestly. It seemed packed very tight with what it wants, every card has a reason for being there and is never just a "compliment" card.

-Should Thoughtseize replace Duress? I'm pretty sure it should, I was just wondering if your health pool was ever an issue while playing the deck (though I doubt that is likely).

-Is there a reason why the deck isn't so popular? Is it because of its inherent difficult level of play, lack of exposure, cost of the deck, or all of the above?

-Is the singleton Seat of Synod / Ancient Den ever wanted? Also, what would you change to accomodate Academy Ruins?

-Could you outline the matchups if you have time? This way I can update the first post with actual information instead of wishy-washy guesses.

And beyond that, I can't really think of much else to ask. It already runs the best cards of its colors, so anything added would probably just be inferior. Once again, thanks for taking the time to respond, it's greatly appreciated.

[JACO]

Anyways, @ Jaco, I have some questions myself.
-Regarding the decklist, is there anything you would change? When I saw the list, I couldn't think of anything I would really alter, honestly. It seemed packed very tight with what it wants, every card has a reason for being there and is never just a "compliment" card.For the most part, the deck is exactly as I want it. Spell Snares are rounding out the main right now (with Stifle in sideboard), because in the last tournament I played in, there was hardly any combo, and the room was about half Threshold. That being said, Stifle is useful in pretty much every match, even for buying tempo by essentially destroying fetchlands on turns 1-3.


-The win conditions are sufficient I would assume, between 2-3 Jotun Grunts, bear beats, and Umezawa's Jitte. Have you ever felt the need for something bigger or something that flies, such as Exalted Angel, the end games by itself? I realize room does not exactly permit such luxuries, but it seems the earlier incarnations of the deck have had mild success running the various angels.The UWR versions of the deck tend to run more mana, and function differently. Black changes things quite a bit, allowing you to run a much smaller mana curve, and more business packed in. Because of this, there isn't really the mana to support Angels, and I have rarely wanted more creatures anyway. Getting in the red zone for 2-6 a turn for X turns is usually good enough, and if you have an active Jitte against pretty much anything, that's game over. I could see why people would want to play UWR if they expected a lot of aggro and Goblins and so forth (where consistently getting double white mana for things like Exalted Angel and Silver Knight is more realistic, and there's more of a need).


-Should Thoughtseize replace Duress? I'm pretty sure it should, I was just wondering if your health pool was ever an issue while playing the deck (though I doubt that is likely).Life has not been an issue against mainstream decks, only some random stuff here and there. Thoughtseize is better against aggro (stealing creatures), while Duress is better against control and combo. Like the Trinket targets, it's really up to the player what they think they'll need in a specific tournament. I usually notate my decklists like this, and just make a decision going into the tournament:
4 Duress/Thoughtseize


-Is there a reason why the deck isn't so popular? Is it because of its inherent difficult level of play, lack of exposure, cost of the deck, or all of the above?Probably all of the above. I actually never really thought about how expensive this would be to build, but I guess with the blue duals it's on the higher side. Also, unless people have really played Trinket Mage/Solution in Extended, they don't realize how powerful it is, and when they see UWB 'fish' type decks they tend to focus on another strategy altogether (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4405), which I believe is nowhere near the power level of this type of deck.


-Is the singleton Seat of Synod / Ancient Den ever wanted? Also, what would you change to accomodate Academy Ruins?I missed the Seat of the Synod in your deck above, but seeing it now I would never want it (even HAVING played 2 of them in Faerie Stompy, as well as various Extended decks like Solution and ScepterChant, all of where it also would serve as fodder for Thirst for Knowledge). If you have 3 mana to cast Trinket Mage, you've usually reached all the mana you should need for the game (maybe 4 if you're planning to drop Jitte and equip it in the same turn). With that in mind, you should probably never be grabbing a land with Trinket Mage, as there are always better targets, so I would advise against the artifact lands, as basic lands are better against Wasteland. The only way I could possibly see wanting either one is if you fetch Ancient Den so you don't have to get a Plains, in the event you think somebody is actually playing Massacre against you. As far as Academy Ruins, I think 1 could be subbed for a Tundra or Underground, and if it proves as could as I think, then test potentially adding a 2nd, and test more to see if the 2 colorless mana sources really burden the deck's colored mana requirements (like 4 Wastelands do).

Outlining matchups would be a waste of time from any perspective. My results will most likely differ than yours, and everybody elses testing. If you're serious about playing the deck competitively, goldfish it about 100 times to get the feel for your potential plays on turns 1, 2, 3, etc., then test it against as many different widely played decks as you can stand. This, like all other decks, is customizable as you get a feel for how you play it, and what you might like to see more or less of. What I played was exactly what I wanted at the time, after playing it it a few 25-35 man tourneys, and with what I expected going in to GenCon. The only real weakness I've found, or matchup I was concerned about, was 4C Landstill and Ichorid Bridge. Aggro control in general has a difficult time against a competent 4C Landstill player because there is just so much removal, so the entire game and match is touch and go. Against Ichorid Bridge every single turn is imperative as you try to combat their strategy. The matchups I've had vs. Ichorid are very much like Vintage, where many decisions are compressed into a short time frame with which you need to survive, before possibly taking control (via Meddling Mage, Tormod's Crypts, Engineered Expslosives, active Jitte, etc.). TEST!

[jegger]

I build a deck very similar to this when the new errata of dreadnought was applicated (You can see the decklist here: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6301&page=2).
Unfortunately I do only a tournament with this deck and top8. But the deck was Suboptimal because I hadn't meddling mages and pithing needles.

In a first moment the deck was more centered on combo stifle+nought, but I see that often the first target of trinket is sensei / e.e. and when I play my 2°/3° trinket for nought I can win easily with my army of mages+jotun. So now I play the dreadnought in side.

Now my list is very similar to yours.
I play 20 lands because we don't have many cantrips like threshold and our deck is tricolor.

In my trinket toolbox there is also a crypt because I want a response in g1 against deck that abuse of graveyard. I try to cut it because against some decks like pure aggro is a dead card, but I see that preside, when opponent has no answer to crypt (krosan grip, abeyance, chalice of teh void) it can win easily game1. I think to decks like cephalid breakfast, ichorid, 43lands & others loam decks.

I never use jitte. I don't like it, but perhaps I'm wrong. I can try them, but I don't find space except if I cut 1 land and the crypt.

For the side I think that 4 engineered plague are obligatory if the meta requires them.

I don't understand why nobody plays threads of disloyalty in side with all tarmogoyf that there are. I think also to play 2x maindeck, but it's exaggerated if the meta it's not full of threshold, grow, fish. An alternative to threads is smother, but usually threads does 2x1 so I think I'll replace the 1x smother with the third threads.

I play also 2x disenchant in side that is a versatile card against many mathcups.

I think that baddest matchups are:
- aggro like goyf sligh & burn. I think I need to search some space in side for cards against red like chill, beb,...
- control like classic landstill and 4c landstill and I think that new MUC has a favorable matchup against us.

[raharu]

What is the verdict on Lim-Dul's Vault (Each upkeep stacking a set of three cards in each important converted mana cost slot is sweet)? Personally, I would run Vindicate over Disenchant, but I've always thought that the versatility overcame a B difference in the casting cost, but everyone disagrees. Is the voulnerability of Dark Confidant a problem? Would Phyrexian Arena be too much of a strian on the mana base?

[Bardo]

Okay, so I'm down with this deck. Nice work Jaco and everyone else.

A couple of questions as I'm messing around with the list above?

1. Is four Trinket Magi one too many? A 3-mana 2/2 seems slow, useful as it may be. The correct number looks like three. No?

2. Having played a lot of Fish in my time, it seems like the #1 card that directly translated to game wins is Umezwawa's Jitte. Why 2? For now I'm testing

-1 Trinket Mage
+1 Jitte

3. What's up with the Scrubland?

Using your above list you have 22 blue cards, 7 black cards, 10 white cards and 6 colorless. By comparison, you also have 15 blue mana sources, 13 white sources and 10 black sources. That doesn't seem perfectly balance. Why not:

-1 Scrubland
+1 Undergound Sea

Seems like you'll always need blue (the rest of the deck is support), but you won't always need white and black; and the Scrubland will occasionally get in the way of having UU on turn 2 for Counterbalance. Seems like you're more likely to drop a dude on turn 2, but it could mess with your plans in some match-ups. Also, drawing an otherwise finely curved hand with Ruins and Scrubland is going to suck.

Also, has anyone tested a single Meekstone in the sideboard?

I will also note in passing that $25-$30 Thoughtseizes really make me frown. :(

Otherwise, nice discussion.

[JACO]

What is the verdict on Lim-Dul's Vault (Each upkeep stacking a set of three cards in each important converted mana cost slot is sweet)? Personally, I would run Vindicate over Disenchant, but I've always thought that the versatility overcame a B difference in the casting cost, but everyone disagrees. Is the voulnerability of Dark Confidant a problem? Would Phyrexian Arena be too much of a strian on the mana base?The verdict is that Lim-Dul's Vault is card disadvantage, so I don't think of it, and for 2 mana I'd rather be casting any of the other 2 casting cost cards already in the deck. It is interesting, though. I definitely like Vindicate over Disenchant, but I don't like it enough to play it main (sideboard if you felt the need as a catch all answer possibly). Finally, while I enjoy a mini Necro (Arena) just as much as the next man, it doesn't beat for 2, and it doesn't cost 1B. That is enough to prevent me from playing it.


1. Is four Trinket Magi one too many? A 3-mana 2/2 seems slow, useful as it may be. The correct number looks like three. No?
2. Having played a lot of Fish in my time, it seems like the #1 card that directly translated to game wins is Umezwawa's Jitte. Why 2? For now I'm testing

-1 Trinket Mage
+1 JitteIf I had more room in the deck I might want another Jitte, but there aren't a ton of men to begin with, and I don't like relying on Jitte, and I don't want it in my opening hand usually. It's a total mid game card in this deck. I had another 1 in my sideboard originally to bring in against aggro, but cut it because I wasn't playing against a lot of aggro. 4 Trinket Mages is the right number to me, because I always want to see it early, and seeing multiples is never bad, as he can always fetch something and just soak up damage for a turn at least. I either want to fetch something that's going to help win me the match, or I want to have SDT ASAP. SDT + Counterbalance or SDT + Confidant is often going to win you the game if left unchecked for more than a turn or two. KWISS.


3. What's up with the Scrubland?The manabase can be tweaked as you desire, but with the lots of different colors in casting costs and the mix of fetchlands I often want Scrubland, as Island + Scrubland can cast every spell except Counterbalance (and Trinket Mage) from turn 2 on. I want to have different colors available during the game, not more of the same color (for example, I would rarely fetch for an Underground if I already had an Underground in play). Also, using your color sources comparison, you don't take sideboard cards into account, which is important. When playing most decks I tend to fetch basics first if I don't need to fetch a dual for something in my hand, as it's just not worth the risk of getting something unneccessarily Wastelanded. As I've said before, I wouldn't change anything mana-wise except to potentially add an Academy Ruins, but as I would encourage with any other deck, test it and tweak it to what you like.


Also, has anyone tested a single Meekstone in the sideboard?I haven't, as that would indicate that I'm willing to take damage from their creatures to begin with before killing them. I'd rather just have another Spell Snare or Engineered Explosives or Diabolic Edict or Smother, personally. If I felt I was getting beat up a lot by big guys and there was little else I could do, I might look into adding 1, but I doubt it, as it's just something they could remove.

When I built my version I didn't want it to be too dependent on Trinket Mage (and thus not include a bunch of randomly dead singletons), or too dependant on Counterbalance, or too dependant on anything (including Jitte). Play the tempo game, disrupt your opponent, and land a bomb or something else small that will swing the game in your favor when you're able to.

[Bardo]

Island + Scrubland can cast every spell except Counterbalance (and Trinket Mage) from turn 2 on.

That's a good point -- I was mainly considering the Counterbalance problem (UU), with the three other non-U sources in my manabase (Swamp, Plains, Ruins).

The sideboard I'm testing:

4 Engineered Plague (Gobs, Slivers, Elves) * People play all sorts of crap in the NW
3 Planar Void (Thresh, Tog, Ichorid, LTFL, Breakfast)
3 Hydroblast (Burn, Gobs, RDW)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt (the obvious)
1 Chalice of the Void (Burn, Thresh, Combo)

Seriously, if there is anyone playing Burn within 600 yards of me at a tournament, they will always get paired against me. 'A very odd phenomenon. I believe my lifetime record vs. Burn is something like 11-0. But I'll be damned if I'm going to throw away a game to that thing. (Though CounterTop should be enough).

I don't expect a lot of combo in my area, hence no Stifles.

Thanks for your thorough answer.

[JACO]

The sideboard I'm testing:
4 Engineered Plague (Gobs, Slivers, Elves)
3 Planar Void (Thresh, Tog, Ichorid, LTFL, Breakfast)
3 Hydroblast (Burn, Gobs, RDW)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt (the obvious)
1 Chalice of the Void (Burn, Thresh, Combo)Planar Void does not really work too well with Jotun Grunt. I would recommend dropping the Planar Voids for another Crypt or two, and possibly another Grunt. If you expect a lot of Burn, add 1 more Chalice and/or Jitte.

[miro]

so i played this deck yesterday.

and two burn deck smashed my face.
I've won my UG ******** and WW matches.

maindeck is very solid and i wouldn't change a single card.

but meta with lot of burn deck is not a thing that you want...
:(

do you think chill is good sb choice? or maybe more cotv than only one in sb? or cop:red , maybe? what do you think?

[Jaynel]

I think Chill would work really well. It stalls them until you can set up the Counterbalance lock, which is pretty good against Burn (keep 1cc and 2cc cards on top).

[jegger]

Yes, burn is one of the worst matchup. Usually I side in phyrexian dreadnought only to sword to plowsh it to take a little breath until counterTop goes into the board (but fireblast and flamebreak are a great problem).

I'm trying chill in 2x, but I want also to try Cop:Red and warmth because chill goes under beb & hydroblast.

I think also that one of the major problems against aggro & aggrocontrol is pithing needle on e.e. or sensei. Do you have solutions in side to it? Usually I use disenchant but I'm searching to a card with a CC > 2 to go off to counterbalance: vindicate, dismantling blow, devout witness...

@miro: do you play thoughtseize or duress? I think that one disavantage of thoughtseize is against burn matchup.

[miro]

@jegger: this is the list I'm pleyed:

3 Flooded strand,
3 Polluted delta
4 Undergrund sea
3 Tundra
1 Srubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Academy ruins
4 Meddling mage
4 Dark confidant
4 Trinket mage
3 Jotun grunt
4 Force of will
4 Sword to plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Thougtsize
3 Spell snare
3 Counterbalance
2 Umezawa's jitte
2 Sensei's divining top
1 Pithing needle
1 Engineered explosives

SB:
2 Serenity
3 Engineered explosives
3 Engineered plague
1 Pithing needle
2 Tormod's crypt
3 Stifle
1 Chalice of the void

yes, 61 cards :) but i wanted 3 copies of Grunts, and I haven't got a clue what to take out...
and yes - thougtsizes was my problem also, I seriously thinking about taking them out and put in 3 Vindicates -more on that later.

i'm thinking about playing sb looking like this :

2 Serenity
2 Engineered explosives
3 Engineered plague
1 Pithing needle
3 Chill
3 Stifle
1 Chalice of the void

my meta looks like:
UG *****
UGr *****
burn
vial goblins
white stax
WWu
Belcher
Ichorid
SpringTide
randomness

but i'm know what you mean about searching cards with CC>2 to CB - imo Vindicate is the best choice, and i think give it a try in place of thougtsizes/duresess

on Saturday - Serenity was doing just great (its also v.good vs. Stax)

anyway - thx for you opinions to Jynel and jegger, for deck to JACO and to Yesmilord for thread

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

Could Shadowmage Infiltrator find a home here? The evasion is often a factor, and when paired with Jitte, he can be a clock. The card drawing is always nice, and in the long game, he can have a rather dramatic effect. Infiltrator also give you another 3cc spell to flip over on CB. I have no idea where to squeeze him in however.

[jegger]

@miro: Interesting decklist. I like it except for:
- 20° land. Are you never in screw? With 19 lands sometimes I go in screw if my opponent play stax or stifle. I think that the greatest number of match I've lost is because I don't arrive to 3 lands.
I see that you play against decks like ugtresh, stax and goblin that can kill your manabase; you also don't use stifle to protect your duals, I think that another island can stay in the deck very well (ok, ok now are 62 cards :smile: , so something we must cut!).

- I understand that you do some choices for your meta, like 3 spell snare instead of 3 stifle maindeck because aggro control are more than combo.
But I don't like the 3 e.e. in side. E.e. with sensei is one of the favorite target of opponent's pithing needle and I think that an half of your opponent's decks play them in side. I prefer some specific solution instead of 2 e.e. like disenchant/vindicate or threads of disloyalty that do a 2x1 in a meta full of tarmo.

- I also don't like chalice of the void. I tested it for a while. Chalice is very good against combo and burn, but it's specular against matchup like thresh so I didn't put it in these matchup. The problem is that against combo like TES (usually I play this deck) or belcher you can't wait the third turn to play chalice to 0 or turn 4 to play chalice to 1-2 because you're already dead, so I think it's a dead card if it's not play in 4x.
Against burn instead is good, but I presume my opponent side in 3x shattering spree or other artifact destruction so I think that this slot can be use with more succesfull. If there are so many burn in your meta you can try warmth (I'm testing it): when opponent play a bolt you take only 1 dmg. The problem of warmth is that like jitte it's go under sulfuric vortex: a card that all serious burn decks play, so perhaps chill is better (it's also more versatile for example against gobbos).

- Instead I think that I'll try -3 thoughtseize +3 vindicate maindeck. Thughtseize is good, but it's a dead card in mid-late game when instead vindicate is god. I can try this substitution (perhaps I wrong but I test it).

@n00bas4urus_r3x: I premise that I never test it; shadowmage infiltrator is cards that seems to be for this deck, but I think there are some problems because it's slow more the deck and I don't see anything that we can cut from main. But I'll test it (perhaps instead of confidant that it's the more natural substitution)

My last decklist:

manabase 20
4 island
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
3 tundra
3 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 swamp
1 plains
1 academy ruins

critters 14
4 dark confidant
4 meddling mage
4 trinket mage
2 jotun grunt

spells 23
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 duress/ thoughtseize
3 stifle
3 counterbalance
2 sensei's diving top
1 engineered explosives
1 tormod's crypt
1 pithing needle

SIDE
3 engineered plague
2 chill
2 vindicate/disenchant
2 threads of disloyalty
2 pithing needle
2 tormod's crypt
1 phyrexian dreadnought
1 engineered explosives

When I use jitte I shift 1 tormod's in side and 1 meddling out.
I've used also 2x of divert like surprise card, but I don't like it.

Now I'll try the coonfiguration with:
+2 jitte -1 tormod's -1 mage
+4 infiltrator -4 confidant
+3 vindicate -3 duress

[Lemuria]

[Really long quote snipped. - Bardo]

Your list seems promising and I think this is the way to go. The only problem I see is the lack of huge beaters. Maybe we could find room for one more Jotun Grunt, maybe some Serra Avengers or even Tombstalker?

[jegger]

I don't consider Tombstalker for 3 reason:
- it requires double black and we don't have constantly it.
- plus if we play tombstalker we can't play jotun.
- tombstalker can be a problem if we reveal it with confidant (you can consider that we aren't an aggro and any life loss in the long term can be a problem).

If we play serra avenger I think that we shift the deck to fish uwb: more aggro and less solutions. I don't think this is the way to go, I think that the third jotun can be a solution if you want a beast or why not dreadnought maindeck?

[Lemuria]

I think that the third jotun can be a solution if you want a beast or why not dreadnought maindeck?

One or two dreadnought maybe, but then we have to find one more spot to run a 4th stifle (wich wouldn't be bad, I suppose...)

[miro]

@jegger:
thank you for yours tips and notices.

i've done some changes :

MD
out: - 3 duress
in: +1 island (up to 20 :smile: ), +2 vindicate ( Number "3" in CC flip, mid/late game solution )
SB
out : -1 CotV , -1 t. crypt, -1 e.e
in : + 3 chill (like you said : its more versatile than Warmth)

i'll try it this Saturday - and post results

@lemuria :
i agree with jegger : this deck is solution , more control than agro, if you want to play Tombstalker or Serra Avenger - play UBFish,
Jotun Grunts are doing REALLY well (that's why i play on 61 cards :wink: ), especially with Jitte on it.

@n00bas4urus_r3x:
i admit that i never ever considered playing Shadowmages... in my third turn i want to put counterbalance in ...but who knows ... And I have no idea where to squeeze him in (like you)... - he may be good - but i'm not sure that he can be that kind of good like confidant + sdt is

[JACO]

Well, my version of this deck (card for card, except a change in a dual land or two) placed in the Top 8 on both days 1 and 2 of The Mana Leak Open 3. Decklists can be found here:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7617

Seems like it's starting to pick up a little steam. I'm curious to see what the people who played it and placed in T8 thought of specific choices.

[jegger]

In these days I've tested very much the deck.

I see that there aren't impossible matchup.
Yes, we can be 40/60 against some decks like aggro or burn, but I don't find impossible matchup like 20/80 if we use a good sideboard and we know exactly what to side in / out and what we must name with meddling / needle.

I cut pemanently from the main tormod's crypt. It's not so necessary also in my playtest group full of graveyard recursion. Meddling, jotun and balance are enought to stop the use of graveyard in g1.

Instead I think that chill are now necessary in side to contain a massive use of red spells like zoo, burn and goblin.

I see lately a diffusion of magus of the moon. This can be a problem for our tricolor deck like blood moon and back to basics. I notice that the more matches I've lost are for mana screw. For this reason I think that the 20° land is necessary (I think aslo to try tithe in 2x for some matchups)

My actual configuration is standard except for:
-3 duress +3 thoughtseize
-2 jitte +2 vindicate / snare

Now I'm using dreadnought in 1x in side but I don't find it so useful, so perhaps I'll cut it.

[Lemuria]

How are you guys doing against based storm combo decks, like TES or IGGY POP? Have you guys consider running Daze? Get a Trinket Mage online, tutors for EE and activing it seems a bit to late against ETW.

[jegger]

How are you guys doing against based storm combo decks, like TES or IGGY POP? Have you guys consider running Daze? Get a Trinket Mage online, tutors for EE and activing it seems a bit to late against ETW.

Do you think that combo is an hard matchup?
Usually I'm happy when I'm paired with combo.

Iggy Pop it's not a problem. It's too much slow. When it starts the combo we can have on the board meddling mage or counterbalance + backup of stifle, Fow and a precedent duress. There is also jotun that stops opponent's threshold.

Tes and Belcher instead can be a little problem (I'm also a tes player so I've done many testing against it), but usually if they are on the play and if they start to combo and if we haven't FoW (there are too many "if").:tongue:

If we start on the play we have in 1° turn: FoW, stifle and duress. Is this not enough?
If we are on the draw we have only FoW. But in this situation, when you have fear of an EtW, also a daze is useless. And every deck is vulnerable to first turn kill or first turn EtW except for deck that play FoW.
Fast combo also can't play a long term plan because we aren't landstill. We put a clock and some our resources like balance and meddling are immune to orim.

Instead I think that the more difficult combo matchup is aluren. More than Tes or solidarity or cephalide breakfast. Aluren is more difficult because many spells exit from counterbalance lock (aluren, imperial recruiter,...), opponent plays therapy that it's devastanting against our answers and our StP, e.e.,... are not so useful in this matchup so they are dead cards.

[Lemuria]

Fair enough...:smile:

I asked because I didn't test the deck against storm combo yet.

Also, I played againt Alluren and didn't have many problems. Just counter key cards like Alluren, Witness, and you're ok.

In my current configuration, I run 17 lands (it's working really great, I never get mana screwed, brainstorm and SDT do the job) and I run one more Stifle and one more Jotun.

[jegger]

Fair enough...:smile:

I asked because I didn't test the deck against storm combo yet.

Also, I played againt Alluren and didn't have many problems. Just counter key cards like Alluren, Witness, and you're ok.

I'm happy for you. I think that aluren matchup is more difficult than storm combo for these reason:
- they play more stuff to CC different from 1 and 2 like aluren, intuition, recruiter, witness, manowar,.. Its mana curve is high so our counterbalance can't stop some decisive spells.
- they play more protection than storm combo. Cabal therapy is deleterious and they play also FoW.
- its side often contains cards like grip, needle, deed, grid,...Cards that hurt our deck (needle and grip usually are the cards I have fear:cry: ).


In my current configuration, I run 17 lands (it's working really great, I never get mana screwed, brainstorm and SDT do the job) and I run one more Stifle and one more Jotun.
Perhaps you don't play against decks like stax, angel stax, 43 land. Decks that implement a strong mana denial.
But it's strange that you play less lands than a threshold when you have an high mana curve... :confused:

[Lemuria]

just have a look at this card (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=143730)

I'm not sure if we can play that in this deck, as I think it will change the deck concept a little, but maybe it's worth a playtest.

That card combined with brainstorm, SDT, can be a friggin bomb and good board control in a late game, IMO. Though I think this will be probably better in some Landstill build, I still think we should try and see how it does.

[badjuju]

just have a look at this card (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=143730)

I'm not sure if we can play that in this deck, as I think it will change the deck concept a little, but maybe it's worth a playtest.

That card combined with brainstorm, SDT, can be a friggin bomb and good board control in a late game, IMO. Though I think this will be probably better in some Landstill build, I still think we should try and see how it does.

That link doesn't work for me, but to suggest a card for the MB means that you'd have to strictly 1-up one of the cards in the deck - finding something that beats the cards in such a tightly knit deck is not very likely. You might re-arrange mainboard and sideboard cards, edit numbers, and find metagamed board cards, but the way I see it, there's actually not much to change from the maindeck (if anything at all), because every card is powerful and has a specific purpose / mana cost.

[Lemuria]

That link doesn't work for me, but to suggest a card for the MB means that you'd have to strictly 1-up one of the cards in the deck - finding something that beats the cards in such a tightly knit deck is not very likely. You might re-arrange mainboard and sideboard cards, edit numbers, and find metagamed board cards, but the way I see it, there's actually not much to change from the maindeck (if anything at all), because every card is powerful and has a specific purpose / mana cost.

Oh, sorry, this is the card:

Hoofprints of the Stag

:1: :w:
Tribal Enchantment - Elemental

Whenever you draw a card, you may put a hoofprint counter on Hoofprints of the Stag.
:2: :w: , Remove four hoofprint counters from Hoofprints of the Stag: Put a 4/4 white Elemental creature token with flying into play. Play this ability only during your turn.


I'm not actually suggesting because I haven't tested myself. But it looks pretty strong, specially when combined with Brainstorm.

[jegger]

I've tried hoofprints of the stag into this deck a month ago; but there are some disavantages:
- in this deck there isn't a strong card draw engine because there's confidant into the deck. We've only brainstorm and sometimes sensei.
- what do you cut for this? Creatures like jotun or meddling? Naah they are better. Spells like jitte/vindicate? Naah...for the same reason. In this deck there aren't massive cantrips or standstill.
- this card is slow and it slow more down a slow deck like this.
- after a first impact this surprise cards has massive hate like needle, deed, grip, e.e....that opponents play in sb.

I build a deck around this card. A classical UW landstill with hoofprints like win condition. But I think that manlands and decree are better win conditions, because if you have in hand standstill, you can't wait to draw and play the hoofprints. In my local forum some people propose hoofprints like a substitution of wand of elements in UWR landstill.

[JACO]

Hoofprints of the Stag
:1: :w:
Tribal Enchantment - Elemental

Whenever you draw a card, you may put a hoofprint counter on Hoofprints of the Stag.
:2: :w: , Remove four hoofprint counters from Hoofprints of the Stag: Put a 4/4 white Elemental creature token with flying into play. Play this ability only during your turn.This card simply sucks in here. Why would I say that? Because it doesn't fit the deck's gameplan, which is to have flexible solutions, efficient creatures to put a clock on your opponent, and to limit the options of your opponent. Hoofprints of the Stag does none of that, and is way too slow for serious consideration.


so i played this deck yesterday and two burn deck smashed my face...but meta with lot of burn deck is not a thing that you want...do you think chill is good sb choice? or maybe more cotv than only one in sb? or cop:red , maybe? what do you think?If you are having trouble against Burn decks, play an additional Chalice of the Void in the sideboard (so 2 total), as well as the Phyrexian Dreadnought/Stifle combo to side in. They shouldn't be bringing in any artifact removal against you, and a 12/12 should put a 2 turn clock on them. These things, coupled with your counterspells/Umezawa's Jitte/Duresses/CounterTop softlock, should be more than enough to win you the game. Even Spell Snare is decent against Burn/Boros/RG (countering Incinerate, Lightning Helix, Magma Jet, Goblin Legionaire, Jotun Grunt, Tarmogoyf, etc.).

[Nihil Credo]

This card simply sucks in here. Why would I say that? Because it doesn't fit the deck's gameplan, which is to have flexible solutions, efficient creatures to put a clock on your opponent, and to limit the options of your opponent.

My guess is that "resolve Needle or Grip or lose" is not a bad way to 'limit the options of your opponent'.

[JACO]

My guess is that "resolve Needle or Grip or lose" is not a bad way to 'limit the options of your opponent'.Hoofprints of the Stagg doesn't say that. It says "I'm an off color enchantment that sits around, does almost nothing, and slowly makes a single 4/4 creature every 3 or 4 turns, while you beat me down with relevant threats like Tarmogoyf." Get real.

[Deep6er]

Out of curiousity, when you say bring in an extra Chalice against Burn, are you planning on setting it at 1? If so, wouldn't that shut off a great deal of your deck in addition to the cards you're planning on bringing in (Stifle and Dreadnought) doesn't that seem a tad counterproductive? Or are you going to set Chalice at another number?

[nitewolf9]

Also out of curiosity, how is burn a problem for this deck? Between countermagic, the counter-top plan, and jitte, not to mention swords on your own grunt/whatever fattie you play (god forbid you play exalted angel), and the fact that burn just beats itself half the time, I wouldn't be too worried about it.

[Nihil Credo]

Hoofprints of the Stagg doesn't say that. It says "I'm an off color enchantment that sits around, does almost nothing, and slowly makes a single 4/4 creature every 3 or 4 turns, while you beat me down with relevant threats like Tarmogoyf." Get real.

Heh, my bad here. I didn't notice the builds in this list only ran Brainstorm and Top activations as extra draws. Yeah, probably too slow for this deck.

[Nydaeli]

Hoofprints seems like it would be good in an artifact-heavy build with Thirst for Knowledge - it has a lot more synergy with pure draw spells than cantrips (Brainstorm aside, of course). I'm not sure TfK is even supportable in this deck though.