[Deck] UW Cursed Fish: more experienced, more control

[gvbarroso]

I like Fish because it is an aggro-control deck which has huge versatility and therefore can afford to undergo a substancial amount of changes in order to fit in almost any given meta.
In the last weeks, I've been seeing some new approaches to the Fish archetype, based primiraly on the use of green. Unless I'm wrong, this makes the deck more aggro than the previous versions (UW(x)).
Perhaps this aggro tendence is the reason I don't feel that confortable when I see these UG(x) Fish lists. I believe that Fish has the potencial to place very well in large tournaments of the current meta, but to acomplish this difficult task, it has to give up some aggro and become a litte more control. Thus, one of the main changes between the following list and the previous UW Fish lists, is the replacement of Aether Vial by standstill (which was indeed used in some lists) and my modest inovation to the deck: Cursed Scroll.
Those choices are natural ones, given one of the main phylosophies of the archetype: the major part of the control is performed from the board, while little is done from the hand - and in this cases, mainly in the early game.
Well, as I write those words I run out of time, and the list must be presented without a deep analisys of its elements.
You can find topics on the history of the deck, card-by-card analisys, strategy hints and stuff like that in other threads on Fish. Most of them apply to the following list. I only intend here to propose some changes "towards control" in the UW Fish, and, obviously, this shall have an impact on the analysis. For now, I just want you guys to remember this is slightly more control than the other lists, and I believe the small changes I've made can have an interesting impact on the matchups.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windsweapth Heat
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains

3 Azorius Guildmage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Mother of Runes
2 Silver Knight
3 Serra Avenger

2 Cursed Scroll
2 Standstill
2 Jitte of Umezawa
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle

The main doubt rely on the amount of Stifles. Since that heavily depends on the meta you are inside, I'll leave this decision to you, and also will accept suggestions about it and about everything you guys find helpful.
The other thing wihich heavily depends on the meta is the sideboard. As I have no time left to write, please tell me which cards would compose your sideboard.
Thanks!

[diffy]

I am no particular friend of Standstill in your deck because you don't have any possibility to abuse it (manlands, AEther Vial come to mind). You have to drop it onto an empty board (or a board in your favour) for it to do something. I'd cut them as they seem totally win-more (you win if you have the better board position).

With Azorius Guildmage already in the deck, you might want to try Meekstone as super secret tech against everything in the format, notably against Tarmogoyf.

Now, Cursed Scroll is quite rendundant (you don't want to draw 2 until the very, very late game), so I'd suggest to build in a little Trinket Mage toolbox. He can fetch anything reaching from Cursed Scroll over Meekstone to Engineered Explosives or Sensei's Divining Top (great way to improve your card quality), but you have to be carefull to only include one offs that aren't too situational.

Also, if Goblins aren't totaly infesting your meta, I don't see a reason to play Silver Knight anymore.

Another thing that strikes my eye is that you play 20 lands which is too much. You can at the very least cut one land and you'd still be flooded I guess (your mana curve stops at 2).

These are the changes I'd suggest that you test next:

-1 Cursed Scroll
-2 Standstill
-2 Silver Knight
-1 Island

+3 Trinket Mage (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/39.html)
+1 Meekstone (http://magiccards.info/al/en/260.html)
+1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
+1 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)

Now, there might be a flaw in your deck design after these changes (but also before).
You play very controling elements (Azorius Guildmage, Meekstone, a toolbox) but also tempo cards like Wasteland and Stifle. While I agree that these might fit into more agressive versions of the deck, I don't think they harmonize well with the more controling touch of your deck.

You have 2 main possibilities. Either you could cut the tempo elements alltogether from the deck and play something even more controlish like a CounterBalance engine, or you could include some more aggroish elements, notably 2 or 3 Jotun Grunts which do also serve dual purpose of hating the Graveyard.

I personally am a fan of the more controling touch, just because Counterbalance is such a house at the moment.
If you want to implement the CounterTop engine into this deck, these are the changes (in addition to above mentioned) that I'd suggest:

-3 Stifle
-4 Daze
-3 Wasteland
-1 Serra Avenger

+3 Counterbalance (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/31.html)
+3 Spell Snare (http://magiccards.info/di/en/33.html)
+1 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)
+1 Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/sok/en/158.html)
+1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
+1 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
+1 Hallowed Fountain (http://magiccards.info/di/en/174.html)

This list is based upon the discussion and theories in the UWb Fish thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7468). It features the CounterTop engine implemented into the Maindeck and some additional bullets in the form of Pithing Needle and Academy Ruins to reccur your Engineered Explosives.

As for your sideboard, I'd suggest this if you run the Trinket-box:

2 Engineered Explosives (Emtpy the Warrens, Sliver etc)
1 Pithing Needle (Landstill, Survival, Belcher, Pernicious Deed)
4 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid will own you if you aren't prepared, this is also okay against other deck such as Breakfast)
1 Counterbalance (NQG)
1 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
3 Blue Elemental Blast (I don't see your Goblins matchup that good, you should be prepared if you happen to face them)
2 Jotun Grunt (additonal threats against NQG or Control, also good against graveyard based strategies)

[Superficial]

i ran a version of fish like this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 polluted delta
3 Tundra
3 mishra's factory
3 underground sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 swamp


2 dark confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Mother of Runes
3 jotun grunt
2 Serra Avenger


3 æther vial
4 Standstill
3 Jitte of Umezawa
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle

sb: ( not sure i remember correctly with the side board)
3x duress
3x pithing needle
3x true believer ( i think this need's to be switched for 3x silver knights)
3x vindicate
3x planar void


quite effective against, most top decks out there ecxept landstill and ichorid/bridge

[gvbarroso]

Thanks for your VERY insighful reply
In the brazilian meta, which I'm currently inside of, monoreds represent ca. 50% of the decks. This is why I keep 2 Silver Knight (I was thinking of a 3rd one) and 4 blue elemental blast on the sideboard.
As to standstill, I've played and enjoyed it. I manage to get control of the board really early in the game, and a stanstill turn 4 drop, with a meddling mage, a azorius and a cursed or a mother of runes on the board is just fine to get an amazing card advantage from it. I don't really like aether vial, because I hate drawing it on the late game and the advantage it gives doesn't make up this risk. Obviously, with a Sensei's on the board, things would change a bit...
Yeah, I like the Trinket Mage tech and I was tempted to try it, and now I'm gonna do it. The tempo observation was also very interesting indeed. As I believe the more controlish elements you suggested won't make it to the meta I'm in, for now the following will be the testing modifications:

- 3 Stilfe
- 1 Island
- 1 Cursed Scroll
- 3 Serra Avenger

+ 3 Trinket Mage
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Enginnered Explosives
+ 1 Sensei's Divining Top
+ 2 Jotun Grunt (it is useful in my meta)

I don't see meekstone being useful in my meta, but I'll try to remember it when I'm playing
I even like standstill more now:tongue:
Anyway, now there's much testing to do, and the list will be altered many times for certain in the next weeks

[kirdape3]

If people are playing a great deal of monored decks, Sphere of Law is probably well within your mana requirements and is extraordinarily effective against them. I'd also strongly consider moving some number of Exalted Angels in there somewhere; don't expect to play it as a morph very often but WW4, win the game seems just fine.

[thefreakaccident]

There are many various ways to build Fish in Legacy; I don't think that this should be the thread for "hey look what I just made you guys!"... I feel that the discussion should simply be about observing the meta and deciding what cards would fir best to counteract what is happening with the meta.

For example, running stifle, this is a meta card; but is it good for you meta?

Stifle is good against goblins, landstill, and combo... whereas spell snare could prove to be more beneficial to a meta full of thresh and other aggro-control decks.

Duress/thoughtseize are not all that great against aggro, but you might not want to run plague in the board if there is no goblins in your meta.

There is usually a base for fishesque decks, where the core cards are...

17-19 lands

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3-6 other draw
3-4 daze

12-16 creatures

4-7 creature control/board manipulation

then some mata selection cards...

All of the based cards that were not introduced as specific card can usually be altered for specific metas as well... such as portent, and specific creatures (jotan grunt, meddling mage, dark confidant, tarmogoyf... etc.).