[Single Card Discussion] Bottled Cloister

[Yawgmoth]

I was wondering if anyone has played Bottled Cloister (http://www.cardshark.com/magic/card_detail.asp?card_id=22271) in stax?

I'm far from being familiar with the archetype but recently started playing it. I found Bottled Cloister to be a colorless Phyrexian Arena most of the time, and allow you to combo with Ensnaring Bridge to not let them attack. (Bridge combo not terribly important.)

I read a lot about the deck and it seems most people think the decks biggest problem is it's topdeck and I've seen a few builds splash for Sylvan Library. Sylvan Library is good but the deck doesn't have any shuffle effects, so past the first activation your really only seeing one new card a turn just as if you were on the topdeck.

So is the card playable?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think the card is good whene you play it smart... But my only problem is that it does nothing when it hits the board, then afte a turn it has only replaced itself, and yeha than it is realy good...

[Iranon]

Sylvan Library has the advantage of salvaging mediocre draws; this thing is too expensive for that.
For the long term, this looks weaker than a split of Uba Mask and Sylvan Library, but more reliable if what you really want is card draw. Interestingly, they also safeguard against different types of disruption (Bottled Cloister against discard, Uba Mask against counters and friends).

[cheddercaveman]

The other problem with it is that if someone does happen to hit it on their turn with artifact removal you've lost your entire hand. That seems like a bad thing unless your already into top deck mode when you drop it. Granted there is no where near enough artifact/enchantment hate that is mainboarded in legacy these days IMO, but it could still be a killer for you.

[Pinder]

The other problem with it is that if someone does happen to hit it on their turn with artifact removal you've lost your entire hand.

I tried making a Stax-ish deck after Cloister was spoiled that used Cloister+Ensnaring Bridge, but I kept running into this problem (which was a shame, because I really liked the name 'Bottled Bridges'). The kicker, though, is the fact that your hand is removed from the game, so your options for preventing them from destroying it on their turn are also next to nil because, you know, you don't have a hand. It's just way too risky and unwieldy to justify inclusion over Sylvan Library, IMO.

[emidln]

Bottled Cloister is a lot worse than Sylvan Library for a few reasons.

Minor Card Draw

Stax has a lot of card advantage built in. Cards like Smokestack, Crucible, Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, Rolling Earthquake, Wrath of God, Aether Flash, Wildfire, Chalice of the Void, Life from the Loam, Goblin Welder, and Armageddon are all X for 1s creating virtual card advantage. Stax simply doesn't need any more card advantage.

Stax does want the ability to select its topdeck. The reasoning behind this is that Stax's cards are quite simply better than any other deck's cards. Ours create more card advantage by being more busted. Even most of our lands serve double duty as land destruction or win conditions. The problem with our topdecks is twofold: (1) Stax cannot simply be a pure prison deck and (2) if we stall on early land drops we lose. Proactive-only strategies don't work in Legacy (or in any format really), and thus we play control cards like Rolling Earthquake, Armageddon, Boil, Wildfire, Pyroclasm, and Wrath of God. These control cards are very important while we are setting up our locks as they buy us more time. Likewise, if we stall on our early mana development, we cannot play out our hand on turns two, three, and four through potential countermagic/disruption. The bottom line, our locks don't get there fast enough requiring even more control cards than normal.

The advantage of card selection from a set of three cards is that you choose the best topdeck at any given time while storing potentially useful cards away from most disruption (outside of Predict, Brain Freeze and their brethren). In the early game where you critically need mana development to play out the bombs in your hand, you can select the lands. In the mid-game where you need to keep the steady stream of bombs, you can now select the bombs left on top of your deck. In the late-game (immediately after the locks come down), you can deal a crushing blow with a control card to make your locks absolute.

Mana Cost

Let's look at what a random build of Stax might play at four or more mana. We have Smokestack, Armageddon, Wrath of God, Wildfire, perhaps Boil or Tsunami. More aggro builds might play Razormane Masticore, Windborn Muse, Exalted Angel, or Magus of the Tabernacle. Now, if you look at the non-creature spells, you'll notice that they are all bombs. Each of them is more than capable of winning the game with very little help. Even the creatures are relatively bomb-y providing near unraceable clocks (Razorcore/Exalted Angel) or redundant control (Windborn Muse/Magus). At four mana, Stax is playing bombs that affect the gamestate now or in the immediate future. Bottled Cloister isn't doing that.

Drawback

Now, I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but against removal (say, Krosan Grip, Vindicate, Disenchant, etc (we'll leave out Deed because that card is difficult for Stax to beat regardless)) Cloister will mind twist you. Mind Twist targetting you is going to be almost universally bad (unless you're Madness, and even then, it's not a true mindtwist because your cards are simply RFG).

Sylvan Library will keep showing only a single new card per turn. While this is somewhat of a drawback (you still get a choice between three cards), I'm at a loss as to why people simply don't play shuffle effects in their stax decks. I know that I include 2-4 fetchlands, Life from the Loam (mini shuffle effect and recursion of fetches), and Crucible of Worlds (recursion of fetches) in mine. I would say that not doing so is wrong for design reasons not relating to Sylvan Library.

Additionally, at least Sun Tower variants play instants in their control package. Cards like Boil, Krosan Grip, and Sudden Shock are a lot worse if they are sorcery-speed. Losing these cards greatly affects your ability to properly metagame, which will contribute to game losses faster than you can show up for tournaments.

Broken Combos

Sylvan Library is pretty good at performing "top per turn." However, Sylvan Library is broken when you add in cards that replace the Library draws. Let's look at three common combos with Sylvan Library in Legacy Stax:

Library + Uba Mask

When I debuted this in Sun Tower, it was simply amazing at turning around games that I had no business being in. Ancestral Recall per turn, enabling Ennaring Bridge with either piece, scalable with multiple Libraries, allowing enough time to barbarian ring out an opponent at any amount of life, and functioning as a win condition in its own right combined with Goblin Welder, this simply tore up opponents when it came online. As you are drawing three cards per turn you run into other Sylvan Libraries which allow you to in turn draw five, seven, potentially even nine cards per turn. When this comes online, you win shortly thereafter due to an immediately overwhelming card advantage from a deck where 50% of its cards create virtual card advantage themselves.

Library + Words of War

This was the second combo integrated into Sun Tower. This allowed me to negate my draws enabling bridge while either killing my opponent or burning anything small enough to attack under bridge. Furthermore, this allowed for extra removal against Meddling Mage (and now Gaddock Teeg). When Library + Words comes online, you get to deal six damage divided amongst up to three targets every turn for only three colorless mana. Additionally, this does scale with extra libraries to deal an extra four damage for each two mana and Library you have after the first. This was important as it was the first time I had a non-creature win condition that could likely win by itself in time extension.

Library + Words of Wilding

As Aether Flash was removed from the maindeck after the rise of Tarmogoyf, Words of Wilding took forefront in the line of broken combos with Sylvan Library. Words of Wilding allows you to maintain Smokestack with extra counts by itself, makes chump blockers for Tarmogoyf, and can rather quickly overwhelm opponents by compounding its activations over multiple turns. "The Bear Factory" generating three 2/2s per turn gave me a completely new dimension of prison-aggro which is great for stealing wins.

emidln's verdict: infinitely worse than Sylvan Library

[Lego]

Another option, incidentally, is Grafted Skullcap. Seems worse though. You lose your hand whether or not they have Artifact removal. Oh well, just throwing it out there.

[Pinder]

Another option, incidentally, is Grafted Skullcap. Seems worse though. You lose your hand whether or not they have Artifact removal. Oh well, just throwing it out there.

Of course, it should be noted that there's a difference between discarded and RFG. Things like Welder, Crucible, etc. can make use of Skullcap, whereas Cloister is still a no-go.

[Lego]

Of course, it should be noted that there's a difference between discarded and RFG. Things like Welder, Crucible, etc. can make use of Skullcap, whereas Cloister is still a no-go.

True. I didn't think of that. Helps that you play Stax :wink:

[Yawgmoth]

Card Advantage

I think undoubtedly that Bottled Cloister's ability is greater then Sylvan Library's. (note that this is different then saying Bottled Cloister is better then Sylvan Library)

Overall when comparing raw drawpower/library manipulation Sylvan Library has only one advantage. It gets to see one extra card only at the first activation.

At the second activation of Cloister/Library, Cloister has drawn you ever single of the three that Library gets to see that turn. Every time after that Cloister becomes even better.


The advantage of card selection from a set of three cards is that you choose the best topdeck

Yes getting to see three is cool, but with Cloister you would have already drawn through those cards.

Everything stated above is strictly comparing draw vs. draw effects and does not take into account other drawbacks/casting cost.

Drawback

Personally I don't find the drawback that significant at all. When you play Cloister your hand should be empty or close to. We need to be playing artifacts that effect the gamestate turn 1-3 not playing Cloister. If Cloister is destroyed you shouldn't be loosing that many cards anyways.

Correct me if I'm wrong but stax should try to play out every card in their hand as quickly as possible in order to maximize the effectiveness of Ensnaring Bridge. Even if you don't have it in hand you should try to play everything out preparing to draw Stax or Bridge. The only cards being held back are sweeper effects. At a point where Cloister is destroyed I think you're in a loose more situation. If Cloister is really the most gamestate effecting artifact on the table when disenchant is cast, you are in a sorry situation indeed.

Uba Mask creates a forced situation of play it now or a loose it and generally thats how Cloister should be play to safeguard against removal.


Mana Cost


At four mana, Stax is playing bombs that affect the gamestate now or in the immediate future

I agree. Cloister as a 4 mana spell is not near the power level of other 4cc cards Stax is capable of playing.

I don't think a statement that Sylvan Library's is strictly better then Bottled Cloister is accurate, and certainly not infinitely. In topdeck mode with no other cards in hand, with plenty of mana, what would you rather see Library or Cloister?

Although think I must trust your judgment. emidln you have been testing Stax for years while fairly new to the deck.

Having the early play of Library and smoothing out your draws is significantly important. As I stated earlier you shouldn't be playing Cloister turns 1-3 but you could be playing Sylvan Library. Also on turns 3-5 when you have 5 mana you are able to play both a 3 caster and Library, has came up to where if I had Cloister I would have lost.

Cloister is bulky where Library is lean.

[emidln]

I have people disenchant my Sylvan Library all the time. Given the choice playtesting against Stax, I will almost always destroy library over pretty much anything that isn't immediately about to kill me because of the power of fetchlands, words enchantments, and library to draw extra cards when necessary. This is especially important against control where you can draw 1-3 cards early without fear, at which point Library has become a draw 3, top per turn for the rest of the game, force an opponent to deal with library over something like Smokestack or Crucible due to the threat of Words.

Also, the discard decks generally run either green or white to complement their swarm and discard. This will bring you into Pernicious Deed/K.Grip territory or Vindicate territory. If your solution to discard costs 4 mana, chances are that if it's still in your hand, you won't get more than a trigger or two out of it before you get mind twisted. While Stax will routinely play out its hand against certain decks, things that run Pernicious Deed are not in this category unless you have Needles out.

You missed a significant part of the drawback where you can't play instant-speed stuff effectively. I don't know if you've ever ran into opposing Crucible decks, Pernicious Deed, or Aluren, but I have, and I value the ability to K Grip things when I feel the meta justifies it. Additionally, I almost always play at least 2 Boil.

When it comes down to it, Sylvan Library reads "at the beginning of ... draw 2 cards". This is far better than "at the beginning of...draw 1 card" when you have the ability to generate bears, shocks, card advantage, or capsize effects based off each card drawn. As the cost of including such combos is negligible, and these combos will generate free wins out of nowhere (extremely similar to tinker->dsc) I believe you are left in a position as to justify why aren't you playing it. I believe in the free win thing so much that my builds of Rings of Brightheart/Mizzium Transreliquat-Time Vault combo utilize Words of War/Sylvan Library as the kill condition. In combo and control, much like Stax, win conditions that are a by-product of executing your gameplan are outstanding. I suppose the sell on Library isn't the cheap card selection, same immunity to discard, or not getting mind twisted on its removal, the sell is "Library goes uber-broken with cards that you want to play anyway, generating free wins with a prison deck."

[Bane of the Living]

Library does not say draw two cards. It more like a top activation that could draw you cards if you want to rape your life total. In a deck already running Ancient Tombs and possibly Horizon Canopys or Brabarian Rings, that damage can be too much to be worth an extra card. Having to come up with the green mana isnt worth it just for Library. I understand your talking specifically about your deck Suntower which is Red/Green but if your deck doesnt run green already, its not worth adding it for one card.

Its definitly worth noting you can Pithing Needle Library as well.

Bottled Cloister is very valuable against discard strategies. Library helps you dig your way out of problems but Cloister will keep you from losing cards in the first place.

As long as your not a fool and set yourself up for huge disadvantage then having the Cloister get nuked shouldnt be a big deal, and will even draw crosshares away from real lock pieces. You dont want to cast it in the first couple turns since your opponent will likely still have resources to destroy artifacts with. Let them take out some of the things you play first. Let them use up the Pernicious Deed, then you drop it.

Just dont play like a fool and it will reward you. Alot of cards work that way.

[Nightmare]

Its definitly worth noting you can Pithing Needle Library as well.
Actually, no you can't. Well, I guess you can, but it doesn't do anything.

Sylvan Library
1G (2), Enchantment
At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.


In addition, Emidln is referring to drawing two, and replacing all the cards with other effects, such as Words of War or Wilding. He's also been known to run Uba Mask, which effectively does make it say "Draw 2 cards."

I'm not saying it's good, I'm just clarifying.

[emidln]

Sylvan Library's ability to fix stax's draws is a lot more important the drawing extra cards or ridiculous combos. It is in this capacity of filtering cards as a free "top per turn" that Library is most often used. It makes sure that Stax can make it to the lategame where Stax easily dominates. Stax has exactly three plays that are more powerful than turn 1 mox, land, Sylvan Library. These are (for reference):

Mox, land, Trinisphere
Mox, Mox, land, Smokestack
Mox, Mox, land, Chalice @ 2

Note how two of these plays require double mox, triple land (one of which must be a double land) and how the other requires a mox, any land, and a double land or two moxen and a three lands. Library is easily your most accessible broken play. (I believe Chalice @ 1 is less effective than Library.)

Library actually does say "draw 2 cards." This lets you use abilities that replace draws to create degenerate game states. I thought this was obvious. Before anyone brings it up, if the draws are replaced then you didn't draw cards and thus don't play life.