PDA

View Full Version : [Deck] Ankh Sligh



lukatron2
11-09-2007, 02:13 PM
I did a search to bring up the old Ankh sligh thread but it must have fizzled out cause I couldn't find it. I'm not going to give a primer or history about the deck cause I don't want to spend hours looking up all the info on it. I played the deck for a while and I was just thinking about how fun and marginally competitive it is to play.

The deck dates back pretty far and is basically a sligh/burn deck that utilizes Ankh of Mishra to punish your opponent for fetching/dropping land. Some builds utilize a heavy artifact suite with acceleration like chrome mox and cards like Sensei's Divining Top along with Shrapnel Blast to make the artifacts double over in versatility. It can allow for cool little "tricks" such as looking with top, activating it to draw the card on top, but in response sacrificing it to shrapnel blast. I'm not an expert on the deck and don't claim to be one but I just wanted to get a discussion going on the deck. Any background info, input or old lists are welcome and encouraged. :D. With that in mind, lets get a rough list to get discussion going. The list you see before you is a rather untraditional build, but is my personal spin on the deck.

Ankh Sligh: by Lukatron

Mana:
12 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Chrome Mox

Artifacts:
3 Ankh of Mishra
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures:
4 War Elemental
4 Slith Firewalker
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic

Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lighning
4 Rift Bolt
3 Seal of Fire
4 Shrapnel Blast

SB:
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Price of Progress
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 artifact/enchantment killer (somthing that doesn't make me scoop against counterbalance/challice...powder keg?...its tough without a splash)

I would like to make a black or green splash in the deck, but putting fetches in the deck potentially makes you take way too much damage from Ankh. the reason why I included war elemental is because I wanted to have a potential big guy along with slith firewalker to give the deck a cance at a strong late game. With 12 "free" sources of damage as early as turn 2 (seal, rift bolt, fanatic) and 4 chrome mox, he could start getting big, fast. The only thing I don't like about him is that he's a fragile investment at first and he makes me move my curve up by one, thus making me run 19-20 mana sources instead of 16-18. I think another list with a curve ending at 2 and a faster clock should be discussed as well. Let the discussion begin!

Volt
11-09-2007, 02:28 PM
Ankh is terrible unless you drop it in the first couple of turns. Therefore, you should be playing 4 of them to maximize your chance of having it in your opening hand.

Seal of Fire seems kinda pointless in a deck without Goyf. In fact, you'll pretty much just be feeding your opponent's goyfs. Replace it with Magma Jet, Incinerate, or even Lava Spike.

I don't think Top really fits in the deck. It's mana-hungry and a little bit slow for a deck like this. I realize you can sac it to Shrapnel Blast, but I don't think that's justification enough.

Speaking of Shrap Blasts, you might want to consider running 4x Great Furnace in the manabase. Or you might want to ditch the Shrap Blasts and run Fireblasts instead.

lukatron2
11-09-2007, 02:51 PM
Ankh is terrible unless you drop it in the first couple of turns. Therefore, you should be playing 4 of them to maximize your chance of having it in your opening hand.

Good call, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I actually just threw a rough list togeather to get discussion started but should have taken more time to consider card choices. Mainly I wanted to run 4 firewalker 4 mox and 4 war elemental but you're right, 4 Ankh is probably essential.



Seal of Fire seems kinda pointless in a deck without Goyf. In fact, you'll pretty much just be feeding your opponent's goyfs. Replace it with Magma Jet, Incinerate, or even Lava Spike.

Initially the only reason I have him in here is to help get out War Elemental consistantly (you can drop it early and sac it the turn you want to play War Elemental), but the deck does run rift bolt and a handful of creatures to ensure damage the turn war elemental comes down, so I think you have a good point here. I like Magma Jet cause it helps insure card-quality but lava spike also looks apealing.



I don't think Top really fits in the deck. It's mana-hungry and a little bit slow for a deck like this. I realize you can sac it to Shrapnel Blast, but I don't think that's justification enough.

I can see what you're saying here cause its a poor early drop. The reason I included it is because if the game does go to mid-late game it gives you a better chance to draw what you want. Also, the sweet trick with Shrapnel Blast is hard to pass up. Your point is taken here though. I guess my specific build as opposed to more traditional builds sacrifices a little bit of speed for a stronger mid/late game. The deck can still win really fast, but probably not as consistently as a deck with a little more speed.



Speaking of Shrap Blasts, you might want to consider running 4x Great Furnace in the manabase. Or you might want to ditch the Shrap Blasts and run Fireblasts instead.

Yea, originally I wanted to run Shrapnel Blasts and 2-3 Fireblasts to maximize damage, but as I came to the end of the list I found no room for Fireblast. When this happened I probably should have included 4 Great Furnace. I want to test a build with less creatures (no war elemental) and is more direct damage focused. Probably with Main deck PoP and a couple of Fireblasts. I want to be able to run enough artifacts so that I can support Fireblast and Shrap Blast but I don't know if thats the best idea because both spells make you sacrifice permanents and are more like "finisher" cards.

ebbitten
11-09-2007, 02:53 PM
please for the love of god do not play war elemental in a legacy deck; the chrome moxs also are iffy considering how fast you're going to run out of steem anways. This deck really just looks like mirrodin/kamiwaga deck with legacy cards, not a legacy deck.

lukatron2
11-09-2007, 03:09 PM
please for the love of god do not play war elemental in a legacy deck; the chrome moxs also are iffy considering how fast you're going to run out of steem anways. This deck really just looks like mirrodin/kamiwaga deck with legacy cards, not a legacy deck.

Points taken. But like I said in the initial post, the deck I posted isn't some widely tested/accepted list that claims to be great. It was simply my twist on Ankh Sligh. Thats another reason why this deck is in the New and Developmental Decks Forum as opposed to Proven or Decks to Beat.

Basically I'm just trying to get the archtype "Ankh Sligh" open for development and discussion because its a fun, interesting, relatively solid Archtype that I think can potentially be competitive in the current format, much like when Goyf Sligh started.

Heres a faster build you might like better. Its a bit more traditional and probably more competative. It goes straight for the dome.

Mana:
10 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures:
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer

Artifacts:
4 Ankh of Mishra

Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Magma Jet
4 Rift bolt
3 Lava spike
3 Price of Progress

If you get a turn 1 or turn 2 Anhk it can shorten the game by a couple of turns. You have to keep in mind that many of the best decks in the format run 6-8 fetch lands. Thats 5 damage each fetch! in that sense, even if they only fetch once, Ankh did more than its job. If it makes them sit on a fetch land and not crack it, then thats more time for you. Even if you don't get an early Ankh out, the deck can still hold its own and burn away the opponent pretty fast.

Wallace
11-09-2007, 03:27 PM
So what does this deck have to offer over a Str8 burn list or Goyf Sligh? Seems to me that either one would be than Ankh Sligh, thoughts?

lukatron2
11-09-2007, 03:53 PM
So what does this deck have to offer over a Str8 burn list or Goyf Sligh? Seems to me that either one would be than Ankh Sligh, thoughts?

Its kinda like comparing ugR thresh to ugW thresh. Neither one is objectively better but they both are good decks that offer different card choices and play slightly different. Ankh Sligh runs Ankh instead of Goyf. Like Goyf it can do lots of damage to your opponent and put them in a tough postition. It is not affected by the same spot removal that Goyf is and doesnt rely on the graveyard. However, ank is similar to Quirion Dryad in that if you drop one mid/late it isn't as powerful. I'm not trying to compare them by saying that one is better than the other but they serve a similar purpose and both have their advantages and disadvantages. I would actually LOVE to run green in this deck for Goyf or black for Dark Confidant and I might test it out, but as of now I don't think that adding a second color to a deck with Ankh of Mishra would be the best idea. Maybe it is, only testing and experimentation can tell.

a couple of differences to point out are that Ankh Sligh runs:
Shrapnel Blast instead of fireblast
Ankh instead of Goyf
Chrome mox for a potential turn one Slith Firewalker.
Personally I like the addition of Sensei's Divining Top for some mid-game card quality and sweet tricks with Shrapnel Blast.
I like the Idea of being able to maximize punishment for non-basic land via PoP and Ankh in a format rampant of fetch lands and dual lands.
This deck enables you to do that very efficiently and effectively and offers you some different card choices that wouldn't make much sense in the other decks. All in all, its not necessarily better, but its different and allows you different card choices in a similar but not exact way that UGR thresh compares to UGW thresh.

JakeH
11-09-2007, 03:53 PM
So what does this deck have to offer over a Str8 burn list or Goyf Sligh? Seems to me that either one would be than Ankh Sligh, thoughts?

Ankh, as mentioned above, is just another great way to hurt multicolored decks. Fetch lands cost them 5 life. Between Ankh and Price of Progress, multicolored deck builds usualy face a 3 or 4 turn clock.

I have always thought that Ankh Sligh was just a burn deck that ran Ankh? I didn't really think it had its own category... whatev... I like the inclusion of Ankh because it can potentially control a game's tempo when you run out of gas. There are other great choices for ankh too. You know, you could run ankh, dingus egg, and a butload of land destruction. I wonder if that would work? Comments??

Wallace
11-09-2007, 04:01 PM
Ankh instead of Goyf...

So what you're saying is:
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/FUT/en-us/Card136142.jpg < http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/MED/en-us/Card159251.jpg

lukatron2
11-09-2007, 04:12 PM
So what you're saying is:
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/FUT/en-us/Card136142.jpg < http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/MED/en-us/Card159251.jpg

I don't really know what that is supposed to mean but like I said, I'm not comparing them directly to one another in general or in all decks that run Goyf and not Ankh. That would be just stupid. You asked why you would play Ankh Sligh over burn or Goyf Sligh and since you can't see why by looking at and comparing the different card choices direclty, I was trying to portray it in a way that would make sense and give an explanation to you. Maybe I did a bad job of it? What I am saying is that where this deck lacks Tarmogoyf, Ankh of mishra plays a similar role that Tarmogoyf would play in a deck like Goyf Sligh by helping to put the opposing deck on a fast clock and put them in a tight position by forcing them to make difficult decisions that they would otherwise not have to make if that given card wasn't on the table backed up with a hand full of burn. I hope this clears up what I meant a little bit better :D

Wallace
11-09-2007, 04:18 PM
@ Lukatron2

I guess what I am trying to say is, why not run both? Tarmogoyf is an amazing creature and Ankh punish's people that abuse fetch lands. Why not give them something else to worrie about? Why not drop turn 2 ankh and turn 3 goyf, make them have to choose between taking 4 damage a turn from ankh (if they fetch) or 4 -5 a turn from goyf? I think this deck really needs Goyf and something better than firewalker to put your opponent on a faster clock.

TeenieBopper
11-09-2007, 04:20 PM
I think what Sacearuse is trying to say is that while Tarmagoyf and Ankh of Mishra play similar roles, Tarmagoyf is better at that role, making Ankh of Mishra irrelevant.

edit: nevermind, that's not what he was trying to say. That's fine. It's what I'm trying to say. Tarmagoyf is better than Anhk of Mishra, just play that instead.

Cait_Sith
11-09-2007, 04:27 PM
It depends, actually. Goyf and Ankh fill two extremely different rolls. Goyf hates on Aggro and Aggro-Control excellently, while Ankh can brutally punish Control decks, especially those that rely on three or more colors (because of their fetches. 5 Damage for 1 land = excellent tempo on Ankh's part).

It also means he can stay Mono-Red to avoid Wasteland problems.

lukatron2
11-09-2007, 04:50 PM
@ Lukatron2

I guess what I am trying to say is, why not run both? Tarmogoyf is an amazing creature and Ankh punish's people that abuse fetch lands. Why not give them something else to worrie about? Why not drop turn 2 ankh and turn 3 goyf, make them have to choose between taking 4 damage a turn from ankh (if they fetch) or 4 -5 a turn from goyf? I think this deck really needs Goyf and something better than firewalker to put your opponent on a faster clock.

Thats a pretty good point you bring up about needing something besides firewalker to put your opponent on a faster clock. I think that sounds like a great idea. I talked about it in my other posts, but I'm just worried that if I run Goyf with Ankh I will end up screwing myself too hard by splashing a second color (I too will take 5 for fetching). However I think you are right in the sense that Ankh with Goyf might just put them in so tough of a position that even if we take 5, our opponent will be in a worse-off situation than we will (now they have a goyf to deal with as well as ankh). I like the Idea that if resolved, Ankh makes Daze an iffy play. A card that first came to mind that might get around having to fetch is Land Grant, but then I thought about it and it didn't sound too hot (it can be countered and if you have another land in your hand you have to play that one first).

I think the deck can still be competative without Goyf but it would be good to test him and see how a build with Goyf/a second color does in comparison. It would look something like: -3 lava spike, -1 rift bolt, +4 goyf. Interchange land with +4 Land Grant or Wooded Foothills +4 taiga?

Wallace
11-09-2007, 05:01 PM
Thats a pretty good point you bring up about needing something besides firewalker to put your opponent on a faster clock. I think that sounds like a great idea. I talked about it in my other posts, but I'm just worried that if I run Goyf with Ankh I will end up screwing myself too hard by splashing a second color (I too will take 5 for fetching). However I think you are right in the sense that Ankh with Goyf might just put them in so tough of a position that even if we take 5, our opponent will be in a worse-off situation than we will (now they have a goyf to deal with as well as ankh). I like the Idea that if resolved, Ankh makes Daze an iffy play. A card that first came to mind that might get around having to fetch is Land Grant, but then I thought about it and it didn't sound too hot (it can be countered and if you have another land in your hand you have to play that one first).

I think the deck can still be competative without Goyf but it would be good to test him and see how a build with Goyf/a second color does in comparison. It would look something like: -3 lava spike, -1 rift bolt, +4 goyf. Interchange land with +4 Land Grant or Wooded Foothills +4 taiga?

I would go with the Taiga + Wooded Foothills, running 4 fetch's shouldn't hurt you to much. I would drop Magma jet for Goyf, just is so underpowered, only doing 2 damage for :1::r:. The Scry 2 is nice but this deck puts your opponent on such a short clock that 2 damage for 2 mana is sub par.

lukatron2
11-09-2007, 05:30 PM
I would go with the Taiga + Wooded Foothills, running 4 fetch's shouldn't hurt you to much. I would drop Magma jet for Goyf, just is so underpowered, only doing 2 damage for :1::r:. The Scry 2 is nice but this deck puts your opponent on such a short clock that 2 damage for 2 mana is sub par.

I think thats a good call considering the speed the deck has. You should win fast enough so that scry 2 isn't significant enough to warrant Magma Jet. I was also thinking about Kird Ape but probably not cause I don't want the green splash to be too dependent and kird ape needs a forest to be big. So with the the changes we figured out, this is how the list looks like as of now:


Mana:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures:
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

Artifacts:
4 Ankh of Mishra

Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Rift bolt
3 Seal of fire or Lava Spike
3 Price of Progress

Rough SB:
3-4 Magus of the Moon
1 Price of progress
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3-4 Krosan grip
0-4 Tormad's Crypt
0-3 Engineered explosives
0-4 pithing needle

It would be nice to squeeze in a way to have a potential 9th/10th green source but I dunno...alright...I think I'm going to put a couple of these builds togeather and start goldfishing. If anyone else is able to playtest a couple of the builds being discussed that would be rad...

Bane of the Living
11-09-2007, 06:31 PM
I used to run both Rishadin Port and Veteran Brawlers in the deck. He was very nasty at the time but this was in a world without Tarmogoyf. Heres the list I used to play which was quite tuned for its existing meta.

4 wasteland
4 port
15 mountain
4 firewalker
4 blood knight
4 veteran brawlers
2 ravenous baboons
2 petravark
4 ankh
4 lightning bolt
3 pillage
2 boom//bust
3 stone rain


sb
2 anarchy
1 pillage
4 pyroclasm
4 chalice of the void
2 cryoclasm
2 reign of chaos

I actually started my design around land destruction. I found that people would avoid ankh damage by playinga minimal amount of lands needed to cast their spells. The land destruction forced them into playing more lands and taking more damage. I didnt find burn that great since ankh goes to the head quite nicely if you can support it.

Blood Knights first strike is nuts against gobbos and the pro swords to plowshares was huge. Petravark and baboons are sub optimal but fit the decks ld theme while beating down. Avalanche Riders were ok but I never wanted to pay the echo.

Goyf is generally better than brawers but I loved staying mono red. Dropping one turn one off a Mox was nuts since he was a 4/4 without dedicating anything else to him. The mind games he played with opponents that choose not to tap out were awsome. People were waiting another turn to play something like you had Dazes to avoid 4 damage then you could just stone rain or port thier untapped land anyways. Give it a quick try before scoofing at it.

lukatron2
11-09-2007, 06:44 PM
I used to run both Rishadin Port and Veteran Brawlers in the deck. He was very nasty at the time but this was in a world without Tarmogoyf. Heres the list I used to play which was quite tuned for its existing meta.

4 wasteland
4 port
15 mountain
4 firewalker
4 blood knight
4 veteran brawlers
2 ravenous baboons
2 petravark
4 ankh
4 lightning bolt
3 pillage
2 boom//bust
3 stone rain


sb
2 anarchy
1 pillage
4 pyroclasm
4 chalice of the void
2 cryoclasm
2 reign of chaos

I actually started my design around land destruction. I found that people would avoid ankh damage by playinga minimal amount of lands needed to cast their spells. The land destruction forced them into playing more lands and taking more damage. I didnt find burn that great since ankh goes to the head quite nicely if you can support it.

Blood Knights first strike is nuts against gobbos and the pro swords to plowshares was huge. Petravark and baboons are sub optimal but fit the decks ld theme while beating down. Avalanche Riders were ok but I never wanted to pay the echo.

Goyf is generally better than brawers but I loved staying mono red. Dropping one turn one off a Mox was nuts since he was a 4/4 without dedicating anything else to him. The mind games he played with opponents that choose not to tap out were awsome. People were waiting another turn to play something like you had Dazes to avoid 4 damage then you could just stone rain or port thier untapped land anyways. Give it a quick try before scoofing at it.

Looks like a pretty interesting/solid deck. I bet its super fun to play...Your post made me think that the deck we're working on could probably use some wastelands/ports or other land destruction. Since your deck IS from when we had a Goyfless meta, is there anything you would change about it now that Goyfs are around and the meta has changed? Ohh yea and how come you didn't run Molten Rain instead of Stone Rain?
One of the things I like about Boom/Bust is that if you play fetchlands, you can "cheat" by fetching in response to the destroy target land you control.

Wallace
11-09-2007, 06:51 PM
Looks like a pretty interesting/solid deck. I bet its super fun to play...Your post made me think that the deck we're working on could probably use some wastelands/ports or other land destruction. Since your deck IS from when we had a Goyfless meta, is there anything you would change about it now that Goyfs are around and the meta has changed?
One of the things I like about Boom/Bust is that if you play fetchlands, you can "cheat" by fetching in response to the destroy target land you control.

So now your thinking about taking a deck with a very solid mana base and Fucking it up. Adding port and/or Wasteland is just going to slow you down. Why would you want to make the game last any longer than it has to? You need to have mana available for use every turn with this deck, for pointing burn at your opponents face or to cast a dude. Port and wasteland will add nothing to this deck, in fact I think they will just slow you down.

Cavius The Great
11-09-2007, 06:58 PM
So now your thinking about taking a dck with a very solid mana base and Fucking it up. Adding port and/or Wasteland is just going to slow you down. Why would you want to make the game last any longer than it has to? You need to have mana available for use every turn with this deck, for pointing burn at your opponents face or to cast a dude. Port and wasteland will add nothing to this deck, in fact I think they will just slow you down.

The Ports and wastes force your opponent to play more land and take additional damage from the ankhs. That is probably the reasoning behind those card choices.

lukatron2
11-09-2007, 08:16 PM
I threw this deck togeather and goldfished a number of games. I noticed that the mana base was rather unstable, and sometimes I had Shrapnel Blast in my hand when I didn't want it. The way that I fixed it is cutting the Great Furnace's for Mountains and cutting 4 Shrapnel Blast for 3 Fireblast and the 4th seal of fire. Hopefully I'll be able to test a couple of variations of this deck against UGW and UGR thresh tonight with my team mate.



Mana:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
4 Great Furnace (-4, +4 Mountain)
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures:
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

Artifacts:
4 Ankh of Mishra

Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Shrapnel Blast (-4, +3 fireblast)
4 Rift bolt
3 Seal of fire or Lava Spike (+1)
3 Price of Progress

Wallace
11-09-2007, 08:24 PM
@ luckatron2

Looks like Goyf Sligh + Ankh to me! LMK how this runs. Last ??, why the Moxen? I run 18 land (8 Fetch) in my Sligh build with no problems are the Chrome Mox's really needed?

Silverdragon
11-09-2007, 09:48 PM
Chrome Mox is in there because Slith Firewalker and Ankh of Mishra are infinitely more awesome when played on turn 1 as opposed to turn 2. Mox can also be used as Shrapnel Blast fodder if you run the Blast.

Wallace
11-09-2007, 09:59 PM
Chrome Mox is in there because Slith Firewalker and Ankh of Mishra are infinitely more awesome when played on turn 1 as opposed to turn 2. Mox can also be used as Shrapnel Blast fodder if you run it.



Ahhh.. but if you looked at hte list you would see a lack of Shrapnel Blast's and the fact that you have to pitch a card to Mox means that you are no reducing the already low number of threats in the deck.

Silverdragon
11-09-2007, 10:41 PM
Ahhh.. but if you looked at hte list you would see a lack of Shrapnel Blast's and the fact that you have to pitch a card to Mox means that you are no reducing the already low number of threats in the deck.

You are right the above list lacks Shrapnel Blast. That's why I said "if you run it".
You can't just look at Chrome Mox and say it does not deal damage so it reduces the number of threats and consequently the damage the deck can deal. Although it does reduce the number of threats the deck runs by a significant amount it does not reduce the damage the deck can deal by an equally significant amount.
As I already said Chrome Mox is mainly there to make Ankh and Slith better so I'll look at it with these in mind.
Let's say your opponent plays on average 4 lands during the game. You are on the play and go Land, burnspell, go. Your opponent plays land, go. You play your second land and Ankh. Your opponent plays his second, third and fourth land in consecutive turns and then stops dropping lands. Total damage Ankh has done: 6, plus 2-3 from turn one burnspell. Now with Chrome Mox you go first turn Ankh and your opponent drops his 4 lands. Total damage Ankh has done: 8. With an opponent who uses a fetchland during his first turn to play a cantrip and dig for more land the first turn Ankh is even better than first turn burn followed by second turn Ankh.
btw I didn't want to say that Chrome Mox is good in this deck I just wanted to point out why it is included imho. (I think everyone knows that in the above scenario the situation in which first turn Ankh is better is far less common.)

lukatron2
11-10-2007, 12:57 AM
I was messing with both a list splashing green, and a couple different builds of mono red (one with 16 creatures, one with 8 creatures and more burn) for while. I did a lot of goldfishing with each build. So far I like the mono-red build with less creatures the best. However it was only gold fishing so until I can get my playtest partner to play a couple of games theres not a ton of input I can get from it. I am anxious to see how/if Slith Firewalker will fare. The list used that I liked the best and seemed to be more consistent/solid in getting to zero fast was:

10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Great Furnace

4 Ankh of Mishra
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Magma Jet
4 Lava Spike
3 Price of Progress

Like I said this is just the list that seemed more consistent to me.

DeathwingZERO
11-10-2007, 01:18 AM
Personally I see no reason for a splash. Your Goyf's at best will be attempting to abuse your opponents yard, and you have no means of protection to keep them on the table. In my opinion, Ankh Sligh should never trade it's linear strategy just to get a creature out, especially when your number of permanent lands is now less, and half of them are Waste targets.

In addition, your now relying on fetchlands and duals yourself, which is incredibly counterintuitive to both Price of Progress and Ankh itself. I really see no reason for Goyf, Ankh Sligh isn't Goyf Sligh for a reason.

As for Chrome Mox, I don't mind a mox in the deck, but I personally would much rather play Mox Diamond. My build runs 18 permanent red lands, in addition to Wasteland, so getting out mana via Mox Diamond is not impossible first turn, and it also ensures your losing a land drop, rather than a viable spell, which is both very nice with your damage output, while still lessening your own damage via Ankhs. The curve for the deck realistically should stop at 3 anyways, just to make sure your turns are always optimal plays.

I don't want to spoil my current list, because I planned on bringing it into the next Batcave tournament, but I'll throw it out anyways. About half of the deck is still needing to be tested, but this was something I put together with a buddy of mine with Landstill and Thresh variants in mind:

Ankh Sligh v2.0

Manabase: 22
13 Mountain
3 Great Furnace
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Wasteland

Spells: 27
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Incinerate
3 Shrapnel Blast
3 Fireblast
3 Browbeat
2 Flamebreak

Permanents: 11
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle

Sideboard:
3 Blood Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

Here's a bit of notes on some of the choices: (any of these cards in my opinion can be swapped, their just testing right now).

2 Barbarian Ring- You get Threshold pretty much as soon as you deplete your hand. This keeps up with a little bit of staying power, and is a Mountain under Blood Moon, so no real loss there.

4 Wasteland- Makes the Ankh better early on, as your going to be taking out their non basics, which is pretty crucial to most decks right now. I'd say almost a certain to add in, with the only drawback being it doesn't tap for red, and it's counterintuitive to maindecked Prices, but not by much.

Browbeat- 3 mana to deal 5 damage or draw into more cards on paper is solid. However, it's been under very little testing, so next to Barbarian Rings, this would be the next obvious cut.

Sensei's Divining Top- I'm not a huge fan of Magma Jet. 2 for 2 damage just isn't very fast in here. The only reason I liked it was the scry ability. Well, this is the best answer. Your next 3 turns are always going to be the optimal draws, and you now have Shrapnel Blast turning into a cantrip in a pinch. There are no shuffle effects, but the density of this decks burn (33 spells, including Ankh) means that your chances of the top 3 cards always having a burn spell are pretty high.

Fireblast- I'm tempted to cut to 2. But again, nothing has been solidly tested. 3 was a nice choice, as it allows me to draw into them at a relatively good pace, and having even one show on the table makes my opponent much more wary of being in blast range, which is always a good thing.

Price of Progress (maindeck)- There's no reason NOT to play 4 of these things maindeck if your seeing a lot of Landstill, 3-4 color Thresh, Slivers, etc. They pack so few basics now that this thing is almost always a 2 for 4+ damage spell, and almost never hits you. Even if it does, those non-basic lands on your side are more threatening to them in addition to this, rather than being a problem hitting you as well.

Pithing Needle (maindeck)- I wanted to put these in the sideboard, but additional artifacts to throw to Shrapnel Blast, plus being able to slow down opponents use of their own Tops or Vials etc, made it a worthy test subject for maindeck inclusion. I'm pretty certain I'll keep them, but not sure where they'll be in game 1.

Flamebreak- Pretty nice spell, to be honest. It sweeps away Mongeese, low Goyfs, all of Goblins, weaker Slivers, etc. It's the best thing next to Pyroclasm, but also has the ability to nuke Pro:Red creatures, which at times show up to our tournaments. Another card that can be replaced pretty easily, but I like it enough to test it maindeck, rather than sideboarded.

Sideboard choices- Having 3 of each is just a starting point.

Shattering Spree- Mainly used to take out Vials, Needles (rarely), and Chalices. It depends on whether or not I see Chalices that I keep this, as the deck is very hindered by Chalice for 1 and/or 2. I'd like to have answers just in case.

Blood Moon- I really don't see a reason to play 4. With the average plays, you'll get it out on turn 3, so it's not a must-draw card. I'm also looking into the possibility of upping the "Moon" count to 6, by adding in 3 Magus of the Moon.

Tormod's Crypt- Obvious inclusions if there's any decks highly abusing their graveyards. 4 seems like overkill, 3 seems optimal to draw it within a reasonable amount of time.

Blasts- I really don't need to go with the 8 blast plan. Those extra 2 slots makes the sideboard much more diverse, being able to play things against non-blue decks as well. This seems good enough for now.

HdH_Cthulhu
11-10-2007, 07:19 AM
Flamebreak- Pretty nice spell, to be honest. It sweeps away Mongeese, low Goyfs, all of Goblins, weaker Slivers, etc. It's the best thing next to Pyroclasm, but also has the ability to nuke Pro:Red creatures, which at times show up to our tournaments. Another card that can be replaced pretty easily, but I like it enough to test it maindeck, rather than sideboarded.


Why could you nuke pro Red creatures?

HdH_Cthulhu
11-10-2007, 07:20 AM
Flamebreak- Pretty nice spell, to be honest. It sweeps away Mongeese, low Goyfs, all of Goblins, weaker Slivers, etc. It's the best thing next to Pyroclasm, but also has the ability to nuke Pro:Red creatures, which at times show up to our tournaments. Another card that can be replaced pretty easily, but I like it enough to test it maindeck, rather than sideboarded.


Why could you nuke pro Red creatures? It is still a red spell

Bane of the Living
11-10-2007, 10:56 AM
The reason I ran Ports and Wastes was indeed to make my opponents drop more land. The way your designing your deck currently your only gonna get stomped by Thresh. They only need to play 2 lands. If you dont get a turn one Ankh on the play your not gonna drain 5 life out of them via a fetchland. Theyll let your Ankh resolve probably. Play two lands, play a Counterbalance, and play a Goyf to kill you with..

Two other huge things that DeathWing is already on top off...

Mox Diamond > Chrome Mox
I think you have problems if your not seeing this..

and.

Ankh + Fetchlands = Not a Combo
I would just laugh my ass off at you if I watched you deal yourself 5 to play a Tarmogoyf Im gonna StP.

I originally had Molten Rain over Stone but I ran into issues with the double red sometimes. Pillage is much more crucial since it can hit moxes and Aether Vial so Molten got the cut. I couldve changed the manabase to remove Ports/Wastes but theyre just so much better than the 2 damage molten dealt.

I really think its foolish to play goyf over a certain red dude that came out in the same set. Im talking of course about Mr Magus. He forces your opponents into playing more land and can just win-the-game sometimes.

When people start wanting to add goyf to every deck that can cast him the original plan of the deck faulters. Especially when your goyf is just gonna get blocked by the opposing one. Like I said Veteran Brawlers might not look like much in the world of Tarmo but when your attacking your turn one 4/4 into a 1/2-3/4 goyf you'll notice your dealing more damage then just getting blocked.

The deck really needs a way to deal with a goyf that does resolve but I dont think its by adding its own. The deck might want Swords to Plowshares. Especially when it wants to keep playing Slith Firewalker in the goyfmat.

lukatron2
11-10-2007, 01:45 PM
Mox Diamond > Chrome Mox
I think you have problems if your not seeing this..


Seems to me that there are a couple of different directions this deck could go:

1. Accel via chrome mox (or not) and try to burn them out as fast as possible. A pro to this is that it applies a lot of pressure but it doesn't get the best use out of ankh and this IS ankh sligh for a reason.
2. A version that disrupts land and forces your opponent to drop more. This version is best at abusing Ankh and punishing your opponent if they play lands, and also if they don't play lands. The only problem I have with this version is that if you don't get an early ankh out than all the LD isn't as significant.

The only problem I have with Mox Diamond is that in order to make it consistent/useful the deck has to run at least 20 land. Add in the 4 Mox Diamonds and thats almost half of the deck. I guess if you include SdT and Magma Jet it could help this problem. Also, if you WERE to make a splash for some reason, this would be better than fetchlands. I think mono red is the way to go but even black seems better than green for some reason.

@Bane,
I like that you're throwing out a lot of your input and ideas. If you read on the first page you will see that I was reluctant to try a splash in the first place, and after goldfishing a buttload of games I was really unimpressed by the goyf splash. Its always nice to test something before shooting it down. I agree that Magus of the Moon is probably the shiz but havent tested him yet. Right now I'm just throwing different builds together and seeing how they play out. Hopefully I can test against UGW thresh tonight. You seem to have a idea in the direction that this deck should go. If you feel like it you should throw a rough list out so it can be tested.



Honestly, I'm not advocating any certain build right now but I'm just trying to throw ideas out there cause the archtype is sweet/fun and it would be awsome if this thread could lead to a well rounded list that can compete in the current format.

DeathwingZERO
11-10-2007, 03:18 PM
Actually, I had mistaken Flamebreak. I forgot it's "cannot regenerate", not "cannot be prevented". So I was using that for Troll Ascetics, there was something else I was using for Silver Knights and Mothers, etc.

Anybody remember what that card was? I'm having trouble searching databases trying to find "damage cannot be prevented".

Illissius
11-10-2007, 04:33 PM
Flaring Pain is the only relevant card Datatog finds for me. The development version of Flamebreak did have the clause for a while, until they changed it because it would be confusing for a red spell to kill creatures with protection from red in this way (most people are all kinds of confused about which specific effects protection entails).

Androstanolone
11-27-2007, 10:48 AM
If one of your central gameplans is to punish them for playing extra lands, I don't see how you could justify NOT running wasteland. I'd also think port is warranted. This kind of deck thrives on dropping an efficient threat on turn one and sometimes on turn 2, then stalling the opponent's development (usually via delaying their mana and sometimes by killing relevant creatures) while you chomp out 25%-50% of their life total. Then, your efficient guys are mostly irrelevant and they've developed themselves to the point where they can execute their strategy. At this point you throw a flurry of burn at their face and end the game. Sometimes the game isn't quite over, but they have to continue slow-playing because their life total is at such a precarious level and their mana is a bit tighter than usual. At this point you either 1)Pray they can't deal with a topdecked burn spell or 2) Have some way of gaining mid-game relevance. The latter role was often filled by cursed scroll. The moral of the story is, sligh cannot survive without disruption, it simply isn't fast enough.

Wasteland and rishadan port are essentially FREE disruption that also synergizes with your ankh plan. You can even consider 2-3 Zo Zu, the Punisher to insure you get an ankh down in the first few turns. Topping this off with something like pillage or molten rain and you have a solid disruption package. Your beaters should be as efficient as possible, which usually prohobits 2-drops. The meta has too much aggro for Jackal Pup and Goblin Cadets, so GL and mogg fanatic are probably the best choices. Veteran brawlers is worth trying since this is a ponza-ish sligh. Splashing a color is very precarious because the deck thrives on its efficiency and consistency. White offers the most efficient unconditional drops in isamaru and savannah lions in addition to a strong burn spell in aggro mirrors, lightning helix. Black offers some reach with dark confidant and utility with terminate and point discard. Green offers some very strong beaters in kird ape and tarmogoyf in addition to sideboard utility. Ultimately these probably aren't worth it. Any one or two solid creatures should be able to go the distance if you're keeping them off balance with mana denial.

This is how sligh functions. Unfortunately other decks (especially threshold) have become brutally efficient, also. Your creatures are outclassed or killed so early and your card quality is completely outclassed. Combo is typically faster even in the face of some mana denial. Control (mostly landstill) has become more resilient but is still probably a positive matchup. When you try to address the problem of creature quality you immediately need to splash a color. Perhaps green for tougher creatures, but maybe black to simply kill off opposing tough creatures. The deck ceases being a quick, streamlined, and efficient sligh deck and becomes a slightly slower, clumsier deck with more resilience and reach. When you try to address the issue of card quality you replace highly efficient burn spells with less efficient ones like magma jet, again slowing the deck down but giving it a little more long game. Etcetera etcetera.

You can still play sligh, and you can still win with it. The central gameplan is not inherently flawed and the deck is quick and efficient if built correctly. You'll find it fairly forgiving and able to steal games it shouldn't have been able to with some explosive draws. You just need to accept it for what it is instead of trying to contort it into something it is not. Instead of spending mana spinning a Top, you should be spending mana tapping their lands, timewalking them, getting extra attack phases. Instead of blowing a crucial spell on an accelerant that makes a horrible topdeck, you should probably just play unconditionally efficient one drops. Instead of a burn spell that requires an artifact in play and 2 mana, you should probably run the one that costs no mana and requires only mountains and/or the one that costs 2 mana and can deal ungodly amounts of damage (PoP). Mox diamond is most definitely a better idea than chrome mox. Two efficient one drops on turn one, or an ankh on turn one, are both great plays. Followed by a turn 2 Zo-Zu or pillage or molten rain. Then some wasteland/port action. This could work, but you gotta keep the tricks to a minimum. Sligh follows the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Androstanolone
11-28-2007, 01:35 PM
For mana denial, boom//bust probably has a place in the deck. With 8x fetches you can probably "cheat" the drawback, and the CC is so much easier than pillage or molten rain. You could conceivably be able to boom a land, fetch your own land in response, and still have 2 mana to use port left over.

Bovinious
11-28-2007, 02:52 PM
If you have 1R and a fetchland you could just be casting Molten Rain at 1RR by popping the fetch, not saying Boom//Bust isnt worth it but unless the Armageddon effect is pretty relevent I dont see a point of running it over Pillage/Molten Rain.

Wallace
11-28-2007, 03:07 PM
If you have 1R and a fetchland you could just be casting Molten Rain at 1RR by popping the fetch, not saying Boom//Bust isnt worth it but unless the Armageddon effect is pretty relevent I dont see a point of running it over Pillage/Molten Rain.


I totally agree, I think Molten Rain/Pillage would both be better choices over Boom//Bust. The Boom//Bust has a CC advantage but I think the added effect of 2 damage or destroying an artifact out-weighs the :1::r: CC.

So Annoying My Account Is Banned
11-28-2007, 04:23 PM
Personally I like the addition of Sensei's Divining Top for some mid-game card quality and sweet tricks with Shrapnel Blast.

Yeah, sweet tricks like paying Shrapnel Blast's cost and having to send your top to the yard? I love that trick, I believe it's called following the rules of the game.

=\

There is a creature version of the Ankh, think it's called 'Zo-Zu the Punisher' or something (it was from Kamigawa and trying to read the names of the legends in there is like reading Dr. Seuss).
Seems like running 8 copies of ankh is pretty good to me.

The real problem that all burn decks face is that they run out of fuel hella quick. If you splashed black you could play confidant, that might help a bit.

if you also splashed black you would be able to actually kill a tarmogoyf without two-for-one-ing yourself more than half the time. But that's not important in this format or anything...

Androstanolone
11-30-2007, 12:38 PM
Blood Knights first strike is nuts against gobbos and the pro swords to plowshares was huge.



I like your build. As long as you're running BK's, have you considered combining him with Brute Force? It could function as an extra lightning bolt, save a guy from gempalm incin/bolt, or act as one for one tarmogoyf removal. A 5/5 FS will take down *most* goyfs. But mostly, it just combines very, very well with BK.






Personally I like the addition of Sensei's Divining Top for some mid-game card quality and sweet tricks with Shrapnel Blast.


Yeah, sweet tricks like paying Shrapnel Blast's cost and having to send your top to the yard? I love that trick, I believe it's called following the rules of the game.

=\



He's referring to the fact that you can put the top's "draw a card" ability on the stack and respond to it with shrapnel blast, putting the top in your grave, dealing 5 damage at instant speed for 1R, and drawing a card.

What you meant to say here:

Yeah, sweet tricks that I am ignorant of, could you please clarify what you're talking about because I obviously have no idea. I wouldn't want to just assume you're too stupid to realize that following the game's rules are not really tricks. I wouldn't do that because I'm polite and have humility.




There is a creature version of the Ankh, think it's called 'Zo-Zu the Punisher' or something (it was from Kamigawa and trying to read the names of the legends in there is like reading Dr. Seuss).
Seems like running 8 copies of ankh is pretty good to me.




You can even consider 2-3 Zo Zu, the Punisher to insure you get an ankh down in the first few turns.


Good re-suggestion, although 4 is probably too many because of the 3cc and RR when most people are already running molten rain and/or pillage. It's also a legend. Finally, ankhs can make bad topdecks, so 8 may be excessive.



The real problem that all burn decks face is that they run out of fuel hella quick. If you splashed black you could play confidant, that might help a bit.

if you also splashed black you would be able to actually kill a tarmogoyf without two-for-one-ing yourself more than half the time. But that's not important in this format or anything...




Black offers some reach with dark confidant and utility with terminate and point discard.


Another decent re-idea. But if you splash a color it makes it hard to run ports and wastelands, which are critical disruption.

freakish777
11-30-2007, 12:59 PM
Top + Shrap Blast = Awful.

2R + 2 cards = Draw a card + 5 damage....

You're playing Ankh Sligh, you don't have time to screw around with Tops 2 mana requirement for card selection that only draws you a card if you happen to have Shrap Blast in hand as well.

How about instead you run cards that kill the opponent.





Mana:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
4 Great Furnace (-4, +4 Mountain)
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures:
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

Artifacts:
4 Ankh of Mishra

Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Shrapnel Blast (-4, +3 fireblast)
4 Rift bolt
3 Seal of fire or Lava Spike (+1)
3 Price of Progress

Grim Lavamancer should be Kird Ape. Slith Firewalker should be Fireblasts.

Wallace
11-30-2007, 03:26 PM
Here is the Ankh Sligh List I threw together:


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Shrapnel Blast
3 Price of Progress

10 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Great Furnace