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insertnamehere
11-12-2007, 08:30 PM
I have been toying with Kithkins for a new Legacy white weenie build based around 2 cards Militia's Pride and Cenn's Heir

A few cards I was considering are:
Cenn's Heir (Whites version of Goblin Piledriver)
Militia's Pride (feeds to Cenn's Pride)
Wizened Cenn
Goldmeadow Stalwart
Surge of Thoughtweft (card drawing for white)
Kinsblade Balloonist (Gives Cenn's Heir flying when it attacks also)

This deck could very easily play as either a control based deck or as a stompy/sligh aggro deck.

Some key Legacy cards I was considering were:
StP
Armageddon (most Kithkin are :w: or :w: :w:
Aether Vial.

Any Suggestions?

Wallace
11-12-2007, 08:47 PM
The only Suggestion I ahve is don't play Kinsblade Balloonist, it cost's :3::w: for a 2/2 dude. The fact that he gives one of your attacking creatures flying is not worth the cost. This deck will prob. never be better than the other white wennie decks in the format, but I have been wrong before...Good Luck.

insertnamehere
11-12-2007, 08:53 PM
I kinda agree with the balloonist. My opinion on this deck is that it could be faster with the combo if you have enough land to speed it up. ex. 3 creatures attacking (incl Heir) pay :w::w::w: and you have 3 additional creatures thus giving the Heir +5/+5 Keep doinf that and your opponent should go down pending the amount of control in their deck.

Afro
11-12-2007, 09:09 PM
This deck is horrible in T2. How can it be even decent in legacy? Even with jitte and vial the deck sucks.

VsTheWorld
11-12-2007, 09:14 PM
It somehow managed to Top 4 the 84 person Magic League tournament yesterday. Here's the list, for reference:

//NAME: Mono White Kithkins - Ronnan

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Militia's Pride
2 Mirror Entity
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
3 Cenn's Heir
3 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
2 Ajani Goldmane
1 Karakas
23 Plains

SB:
3 Worship
3 True Believer
3 Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Ajani Goldmane

This is what happens in a meta where nobody plays combo. Let the WTF's begin.

Jaynel
11-13-2007, 02:16 PM
He didn't pilot that list - it was just up on some MWS league.

Fons
11-13-2007, 03:03 PM
sorry i misread :(

Lego
11-13-2007, 03:12 PM
A Magic League finish is hardly a valid argument for a deck. You have to answer the question of why this is better than Angel Stompy, Death and Taxes, or any of the WW decks with a splash. I think the answer is always going to be, "It's not."

Happy Gilmore
11-13-2007, 04:11 PM
It somehow managed to Top 4 the 84 person Magic League tournament yesterday. Here's the list, for reference:

//NAME: Mono White Kithkins - Ronnan

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Militia's Pride
2 Mirror Entity
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
3 Cenn's Heir
3 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
2 Ajani Goldmane
1 Karakas
23 Plains

This is what happens in a meta where nobody plays combo. Let the WTF's begin.

For serial?!

Tacosnape
11-13-2007, 04:26 PM
For serial?!

...I am having horrible visions of someone dropping that against me and going "Go Go Cloudgoat Ranger!" at the top of their lungs.

Mijorre
11-13-2007, 04:49 PM
I am guilty as charged.
I did that once irl.
I won that game, too.

CynicalSquirrel
11-13-2007, 06:31 PM
lol, I actually lost to the Kithkin deck in round 3. I was playing GBW Survival and he went turn one Kithkin Isamaru guy, turn 2 Wizenened Cenn, followed by Jitte both games (including double Jitte game two after I killed the first one with Harmonic Sliver). Regardless of what the creatures are, when they're coming at you that fast followed by Jitte it's hard for a Survival deck to really stabilize, and I never did.

Basically the guy who played it is one of the best players in the league and he essentially got lucky and outplayed everyone to make top 8. It happens.

TestMonkey
11-17-2007, 02:11 AM
I like this deck. Super budget and fun to play.

Quick question. How do Mirror Entity and Wizened Cenn interact? Judge!

ForceofWill
11-17-2007, 05:27 AM
He played against like 4 decks with counter top. This deck is absolutly nuts against fish/thresh. I could sadly see this as a decent meta choice depending on what you see.

Eldariel
11-17-2007, 09:51 AM
I like this deck. Super budget and fun to play.

Quick question. How do Mirror Entity and Wizened Cenn interact? Judge!

Cenn always applies after Entity. Same goes to any pump from static abilities, such as Crusade, Sword of Fire and Ice et al. Pump-spells and one-shot pump abilities like Jitte, on the other hand, go in timestamp order, so don't forget to pump with Entity before pumping with Jitte.

Media314r8
11-19-2007, 12:30 PM
I really like this deck. I think Thorn of Amethyst should be in the main to make combo winnable pre-boards. I realize it has dys-synergy with Ajani, jitte, and Surge, but Hoping to win games 2 and 3 just from the board seems god-awful. Perhaps If we included thron in the main we could cut some jank like cloudgoat, surge, and ajani and include les lands and more general hate/threats like samuri of the pale curtain or glowrider. (LOL'd at the thought of 4x glowrider and 4x Thron in a MB of a deck.) Also no reason not to run flagstones x1 just in case armageddon/stacks is played against this deck.

I think I'm going to build this deck for my girlfriend, get her into the legacy sceen.

Black_Dog
11-19-2007, 06:48 PM
Yeah I lost to this guy to place 4th in the Top 8. He beat my B/W Pox 2-1 (which did veeeeeery well)

Came out so fast and leveled me and I was stupid and didn't read Miltia's Pride too closely (he made WAY too many tokens for that).

Anyway, its a solid WW because theirs so much damned synergy within the cards.

Way better than Savannah Lion +whatever other crap WW.

I agree though. MD'd Thorns is the way to go.

and a side note...my first Tourney in RL i ran WW with Jihads and all sorts of cards that would never see play today...ah those days...

Media314r8
11-19-2007, 07:33 PM
Holy dead cards Batman! I really thought that militia's pride was surge of thoughtweft. Militia's pride seems like investing mana to throw token guys into the meat grinder. It really only good with cenn's heir, otherwise it's sinking in mana to get little guys who will likely die to blockers (and dont multiply- NONTOKEN creature). Militia's Pride was the reason Kithkin were so poor in T2. (That and trio combine to create 8 dead cards when there's no kithkin on board in the T2 build) At least the surge of thoughtweft cantrips and can sway combat in your favor (but I wouldn't count on it resolving if you are going to use it for a trade or if only 1 kithkin is on-board.)

Media314r8
11-19-2007, 08:47 PM
I just realized that Amrou Scout is a KITHKIN rebel, and at 1W for a 2/1, isn't an inefficient beater by itself/with wizned cenn. Her ability to fetch bound in silence, Mirror Entity, and a toolbox of one-of rebels seems invaluable to the deck. I redesigned the deck and included Thorn in the main to give the deck a SHOT at winning vs combo pre-boards. (which slightly hurts Jitte and swords, but acceptably so and it does throw Thresh's cantrips, removal, and counters way off.) Abeyance and worship come in from the side to help against non-tendrils combo. Worship, 4 pro-red kithkin, and 1 pro-red tutorable flyer allows for easy games 2 and 3 vs goblins. (should help vs thresh too, as I doubt they will side in Grips vs the bound in silences they see)

Artifacts
4 x Thorn of Amethyst
3 x Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
1 x Flagstones of Trokair
1 x Karakas
20 x Plains

Spells
2 x Bound in Silence
4 x Swords to Plowshares

Guys
4 x Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 x Goldmeadow Harrier
4 x Knight of Meadowgrain
4 x Wizened Cenn
3 x Cenn's Heir
4 x Amrou Scout
1 x Thermal Glider
1 x Mirror Entity

SB
4 x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 x Nightwind Glider
3 x Worship
3 x Abeyance

Sidenote: If you suspect your opponent is playing grips with his goyfs, it may be best to wait out a grip on a jitte before you tutor for bound in silence or worship. (bound in the bin makes for a LARGE goyf!)

Tao
11-19-2007, 09:13 PM
It is really embarassing for Magic-League when such a horrible list places Top8. Ha-Ha at them.
It autoloses against all non-meta decks that have a focus, like Combo (TES, CRET Belcher, Ichorid, Ceph Fast), Control (4C-Landstill, GBW Survival with either Deed or Rector). And it loses against Counterbalance and Engineered Explosives.

If anyone playing Magic-League is interested in how to build decks that do not lose against "Kithkin, Kithkin, go" - look her:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/ptval07/top8decklist

or here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=23

or here:

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpkra07/top8decks

(well, ok, I agree that it beats Faeries here and it can beat Mono-U in G1; and maybe Jitte can do wonders, too; but it still loses against most of the T2 decks)

Black_Dog
11-20-2007, 05:07 AM
The Kithkin thing was a joke that got lucky.

And Tao, anyone whose played magic competitively in RL knows that whatever looks great on paper will have its moments of looking like Sh*t on the table. A great example of this is Pox, which on paper looks like the most destructive deck in the format, especially when its steamlined and focused. Unfortunely it doesn't always operate like it should.

Why don't you take your mouth, ego and deck and come over to M-L and play.

Or better yet I'll be in your country in December @ the GP and can check that in person.

Whatever you plan for, hope for, test against, play against, goes out the window once the dice for Play and Draw is rolled.

Tao
11-20-2007, 12:07 PM
I mean, his plan is to go...
Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains, Plains, Cloudgoat Ranger!

OF COURSE I am mean, then.

So, something productive.

Why not Gaddock Teeg? Splashing G should be easy with Windswept Heath and Savannah and he says no to many things you fear (most combo decks, Explosives, Wrath, Humility).

Media314r8
11-20-2007, 12:46 PM
If you're splashing green for Teeg, why not plat goyf too? and while you're at it, since you allready are buying fetches/duals... why not just use UG instead of WG for a better combo matchup? While you're at it, why not just play thresh.

Topic stated with a discussion of a WW weenie budget deck. Can we please stay on topic? Adding $200 ($320 if you toss in goyfs) to the deck just to stop WoG seems terrible, especially as Deed still gets around Teeg. (Deed/EE are much more prevalent than WoG anyhow.)

insertnamehere
11-20-2007, 09:36 PM
If you're splashing green for Teeg, why not plat goyf too? and while you're at it, since you allready are buying fetches/duals... why not just use UG instead of WG for a better combo matchup? While you're at it, why not just play thresh.

Topic stated with a discussion of a WW weenie budget deck. Can we please stay on topic? Adding $200 ($320 if you toss in goyfs) to the deck just to stop WoG seems terrible, especially as Deed still gets around Teeg. (Deed/EE are much more prevalent than WoG anyhow.)

why not build a Wug and add meddling mage and teeg?

MGC_player
06-22-2008, 05:12 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't been any new developments with this concept especially with some of the new stuff from Morningtide and Shadowmoor. One thing I have started doing with this is putting it in a Kithkin/Soldier shell. My list still needs a lot of work, but its starting to come together. Critique is appreciated.

Land
8 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Rustic Clachan
3 Wasteland
2 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Ballyrush Banneret
3 Kinsbaile Borderguard
3 Preeminent Captain
3 Soltari Champion
4 Enlistment Officer

Other
4 Aether Vial
4 Veteran's Armaments
3 Cataclysm

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pithing Needle
3 Patrician's Scorn
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 True Believer

Other choices:
Knight of Meadowgrain
Field Marshall


I originally had Knight of Meadowgrain in there, but its cost could not be reduced, and since it wasn't a soldier, I couldn't drop it with the captain so it got cut. It might still make its way back if testing shows that it needs it. Field Marshall, I had thought of as well, but the fact that it would rarely ever get through blockers and the double W in its casting cost caused it not to make the cut, the permanent +1/+1 and first strike is nice so it may make it in other iterations. Cataclysm is an experiment so we shall see if it is any good in this deck since I think the deck can recover fast. I want to fit Swords to Ploughshares into the deck, but not sure if it is really necessary and what would I take out to make room for it.

ebbitten
06-22-2008, 05:17 PM
looks so much like finn's death and taxes, god i loved that deck. Meaning its probably going to have similar weaknesses and strengths. First off your storm combo matchup is going to be rough. Second run atleast 3 flagstones. Third Consider Port over Wasteland, it just seems to be better w/ cataclysm. Fourth abduct finn and get him to work on your deck.

Sorry most of that was kind of useless but the flagstones really should be atleast a 3 of, drawing 2 sucks but their strength with cataclysm (assuming it stays in) is undeniable.

Clark Kant
06-23-2008, 04:21 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't been any new developments with this concept especially with some of the new stuff from Morningtide and Shadowmoor. One thing I have started doing with this is putting it in a Kithkin/Soldier shell. My list still needs a lot of work, but its starting to come together. Critique is appreciated.

Land
8 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Rustic Clachan
3 Wasteland
2 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Ballyrush Banneret
3 Kinsbaile Borderguard
3 Preeminent Captain
3 Soltari Champion
4 Enlistment Officer

Other
4 Aether Vial
4 Veteran's Armaments
3 Cataclysm

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pithing Needle
3 Patrician's Scorn
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 True Believer

Other choices:
Knight of Meadowgrain
Field Marshall


I originally had Knight of Meadowgrain in there, but its cost could not be reduced, and since it wasn't a soldier, I couldn't drop it with the captain so it got cut. It might still make its way back if testing shows that it needs it. Field Marshall, I had thought of as well, but the fact that it would rarely ever get through blockers and the double W in its casting cost caused it not to make the cut, the permanent +1/+1 and first strike is nice so it may make it in other iterations. Cataclysm is an experiment so we shall see if it is any good in this deck since I think the deck can recover fast. I want to fit Swords to Ploughshares into the deck, but not sure if it is really necessary and what would I take out to make room for it.

Damn, that list looks tight. Great Job. Veteran's Armaments looks iffy though. Why not play StP?

Keep us updated on your results and any changes you make. Also, any chance the list could be improved by building it to abuse Ancient Tomb?

Once Eventide comes out, if I were you, I would tweak and tune the list some more and start a whole new thread for it.

I think it warrants it. This seems like a fairly strong legacy deck that could be built on a budget.

MGC_player
06-23-2008, 09:59 PM
The armaments are there since it converts any soldier I have into a Kithkin/Soldier Piledriver that works on both offense and defense. Since it is a soldier you can keep it with the Enlistment officer if you drew it. It also auto-equips which helps me keep costs down and lay more threats. I liked the Cataclysm idea from Death and Taxes. The fact that kithkin have a soldier that makes more after it dies is great icing on the cake.

I'm having a hard time making room for swords at the moment. I haven't had a chance to really test it against a live opponent yet, but goldfishing looks promising. Once I find the weakest links, I'll remove those and make room for StP.

Maëlig
06-24-2008, 03:08 AM
This looks indeed interesting, it's quite similar to a list I was toying with recently.
I agree that you absolutely need 4 stp in there, no question. Not running the best white card ever in a mono-white deck is a mistake. I would probably move the cataclysms to SB and cut 1 banneret or veteran's armament for it. In a format where creatures such as dreadnough, tombstalker, tarmogoyf or terravore are everywhere, cataclysm is not such a great MD card, especially if you play WW/aggro. I would remove patrician's scorn from the SB. You still need some kind of disenchants though, maybe oblivion ring?

MGC_player
06-24-2008, 06:59 AM
Made a few tweaks to get StP into the list

Land
8 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Rustic Clachan
3 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Ballyrush Banneret
3 Kinsbaile Borderguard
3 Preeminent Captain
2 Soltari Champion
3 Enlistment Officer

Other
4 Swords to Ploughshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Veteran's Armaments
2 Cataclysm

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Patrician's Scorn
2 True Believer
1 Cataclysm

Illissius
06-24-2008, 09:39 AM
Far as I can tell, there's only two cards in Kithkin to be even mildly excited about: Goldmeadow Stalwart and Wizened Cenn. The former also exists as Isamaru, Hound of Konda, and I don't think the latter makes up for not playing every other WW creature ever which is superior to the Kithkin. (I'm not sure how often "this deck seems almost strictly worse than WW" comes up as the rationale for dismissing a deck, but it amuses me.)

BTW, in a swarm deck like this I'd run Armageddon, not Cataclysm.

MGC_player
06-24-2008, 11:14 AM
Land
8 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Rustic Clachan
3 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Ballyrush Banneret
3 Kinsbaile Borderguard
3 Preeminent Captain
2 Mirror Entity
3 Enlistment Officer

Other
4 Swords to Ploughshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Veteran's Armaments
2 Cataclysm

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Patrician's Scorn
2 True Believer
1 Cataclysm

Changes from previous list
-2 Soltari Champion
+2 Mirror Entity

Cards for future consideration
Armageddon
Ancient Tomb
Horizon Canopy


As for how I have designed the deck, I've essentially been trying to blend some the ideas from Goblins and Death and Taxes into the Kithkin/Soldier shell so that it has redundancy, disruption, and a fast clock. I also just realized there is a kithkin soldier that is potentially better than the Soltari Champion, Mirror Entity. I'm considering Armageddon as suggested in replacement of Cataclysm but that will have to wait until I test a few more things with the deck (and acquiring 2 more Armageddons). I only have a few other decks assembled (Burn, Spring Tide, Belcher, and Goblins) so my testing pool is very limited at the moment. The manabase I think can stand to be reworked a little (Maybe add Ancient Tombs for speed or even Horizon Canopies for the cantrip and the ability to run Krosan Grips in the board). This would probably mean cutting wasteland(mana denial), clachans(pump), and maybe even the fetches(thinning). All have their uses to make the deck more consistent. If i had to make room in the base, the clachans or the wastelands will probably be the ones to go in future testing to make room for Ancient Tombs or Horizon Canopies. As you can see even most of my lands are doing double duty. The Ancient Tombs I think have the most chance of being put in since it can allow me to drop a turn 1 Thorn and can slow Storm combo down.
I still have to test everything so the changes I'm thinking about will not be implemented until after my initial run.

Also, since I can only play on weekends and most of my weekends are booked with other things (conferences and officer training) at the moment I would appreciate it if others can test this deck and get back to me on other strengths and weaknesses that have to be addressed. That information would be much appreciated.

MGC_player
06-28-2008, 08:32 PM
After playing a few simulated games with my other decks while experimenting with different manabases, it seems the deck really wants white mana. So that leaves me with the options of using either Wasteland or port for mana denial or using Ancient Tomb for accel. Fetchlands are staying in since they thin the deck and cut your chances of getting crap with your Enlistment Officer. I'm liking the Tomb since it allows me to play double Vial or Thorn of Amethyst turn 1 and my meta has more combo and control. Armageddons I never drew so I still have to see its results, but the ability for a turn 3 Armageddon is really appealing. Still waiting on a few more cards so that I can take this to a tournament sometime next week. I also cut one Veteran's armaments and added one more land; however testing seems to show that 20 lands is optimal so I may cut one land again and either add another low casting cost creature or put back the Armaments.

Mordenkaynen
06-29-2008, 08:21 AM
What about some Daru Encampments? Or your manabase is already tight?

matamagos
06-30-2008, 06:46 AM
i've been begining testing this deck since it's quite cheap and for the moment I've had some problems.

you really need white mana, so daru encampment will not fit in. The deck can only tolerate a small number of colorless lands, and erial or rishadan port are far better than encampments.

Next, I've been trying armageddon and I can say that it's useful, but has very very very poor sinergy with mirror entity.

So I have to decide wether to keep mirror entity or armageddon, but playing both is no way.

MGC_player
06-30-2008, 08:43 AM
Great! Some testing on Armageddon. So was it very problematic? If so I might keep the Armageddons and just cut the Entity in favor another Borderguard , Preeminent Captain, or Enlistment Officer since Armageddon becomes another one of our mana denial pieces. I just got my playset of Cataclysms so I'll be testing those too in place of Armageddon to see how well they work since we can recover faster after one of them resolves.

matamagos
06-30-2008, 10:08 AM
Well, I am really running 3 armageddons for the moment, since you want to see one before turn 4.
Today I will introduce chrome mox in the deck who has good sinergy with armageddons and speeds up our offensive.
let me some days to test and I will post the results.

MGC_player
06-30-2008, 06:25 PM
Current List

Land: 20
9 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Kinsbaile Borderguard
4 Preeminent Captain
3 Enlistment Officer

Other
4 Swords to Ploughshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Veteran's Armaments
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm - May become another Armageddon

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Patrician's Scorn
2 True Believer
1 Cataclysm/Armageddon

Still playing with it, the mana base is smoother now, but I still think it can be improved. While I removed the Mirror Entity I am now missing the random Turn 3 kills this deck is capable of. I may add one back in, but we shall see. I may also remove one armament and add one more Armageddon.

matamagos
07-06-2008, 02:51 PM
this is the list i'm actually playing, wich focuses more on geddons and land control:

Land: 20
6 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 rishadan port
2 wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 chrome mox

Creatures
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 knight of meadowgrain
2 Kinsbaile Borderguard
3 Preeminent Captain
3 Soltari Champion

Other
4 Swords to Ploughshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Armageddon

I try to reduce to maximum the non creature cards.
I also doubt to go for a more soldier based deck, and play enlistment officer, who has good sinergy with chrome mox. but what to do with wizened cenn and the borderguard?
Today I was testing the deck and I have one preeminent captain in play and another in and. My question was, can I attack with my captain, put on play the other captain, trigger the hability of the second captain and put another soldier in play and attacking?
Well, sadly the answer is NO. I check wizards.com and it explains it very clearly:
4/1/2008 If you use the ability, the Soldier creature enters play attacking. It doesn't trigger "when a creature attacks" triggers and is not subject to restrictions on declaring attackers.

For the rest I have play agains counterslivers and deadguy ale and the deck has had a 50% victories. So it's not a broken deck but it can defend itself, and it will be funny to go to a tournement with it.