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thefreakaccident
11-18-2007, 07:56 PM
This is a little pet deck that I myself invented.

It is based off of the UG threshold list that won worlds, and with a couple little changes has become a different strategy all its' own.

Without further adu, here is the list that will hopefully be showing up in many other places... the list is still being tested, but I do have brief MU analyses and strategies for after the list.

lands//18
4 wasteland
4 tropical island
3 wooded foothills
3 flooded strand
2 breeding pool
1 island
1 forest

creatures//14
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
4 trinket mage
2 phyrexian dreadnought

spells//28
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
2 trickbind
3 counterbalance
2 sensei's divining top
1 Aether spell bomb
4 ponder
4 brainstorm

the sideboard has been the most difficult part of the deck to put together, although I think it should look something like this:
3 tormod's crypt
3 engineered explosives
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
4 red elemental blast (for goblins and random zoo... should probably be different)...


Card choices:
manabase:
14 mana producents... yes, you only need 1 grren to cast either goyf or mongoose... you only need 1 blue for trinket mage, and 1 colorless for the nought... The only UU card is a 3 of, being counterbalance, whereas the rest of the deck only requires 1 blue mana (stifles, FoWs, draw spells, trickbinds)... there are several artifacts in the deck as well.
4 wastelands- yes, they help your tempo over your opponent, by basically taking a turn away from them.

Creatures:

Trinket mage: utility, he searches removal, part of our main lock mechanism, and he grabs out our largest beater... auto 4 of.

Nimble Mongoose: best 1cc card basically printed that is currently in use... I don't see this slot being argued... auto 4 of.

Tarmogoyf: largest 2cc critter ever printed, he kills the opponent pretty efficiently.

The deck makes goyf rather large on average, while still getting threshold at a decent pace... the tempo gained by the deck is amazing, as well as the utility. There are 2 dreadnoughts for 2 reasons:
1.) you usually want to trinket them up
2.) you want to be able to tutor up a wincon at any point, this doesn't work if a dreadnought has been countered/destroyed/discarded.

Spells:

Force of Will: Best countermagic ever... lets move on... auto 4 of.

Daze: why 4? because with the manadenial this deck has to offer, it is like they are in the early-midgame the whole game (or at least you kill them)... thereby making it an even better 'hard' counter... auto 4 of.

Brainstorm: best draw spell in legacy.. auto 4 of.

Ponder: second best draw spell in legacy... auto 4 of.

Stifle: Extra mana-denial, while being one of the best blue card ever printed... great against opposing wastelands and storm combo... also is part of the nought combo... auto 4 of.

Trickbind: a split second version of stifle, sometimes this is so relevent that you may perfer this over stifle at times.. only 2, this is all you really want.

1 Aether Spellbomb: tutorable creature control... can be 'cycled' if drawn against combo... pretty solid, but only as a trinket target.

2 Sensei's divining top, because you only want one, but you need one, whether it is trinketed or not... you do not want more than two, it is the correct number.


The sideboard is in constant shift and requires tweaking.


Match Uannalyses:

Threshold:

This MU is rediculous... you run more creatures, and technically more disruption. The dreadnought combo is difficult to acheive, so the goal is simple. First, you focus all stifle effects on their fetches and dig for wastes... eventually you will widdle them down to only 1-2 lands... now they cannot cantrip, lay threats, and kill your threats... they have to choose. Your goal is to then stick a counterbaalance and win the war of attrition. Their goyfs are counteracted by yours, although they can break the goyf standoff with their removal so you want to cut them off of their splash colors before they go in for the attack... Counterbalance lock is also pretty darn effective, although this is becoming more and more frequent in all threshold type decks maindecks.

Overall preboard % is about 75% in your favour... they can still pull off wins if they are the black splash with a first turn thoughts3ize on their first turn or get a third turn confidant (daze is prevented, and assuming they get to 3 lands on turn 3)... just shit happens and they can sometimes pull off wins.

Postboard they bring in many different things against you... I usually just board in some engineered explosives, taking out a spellbomb and a trickbind... they can't win the board unless they play several more critters than you, then you simply blow up their dudes.


Combo Being (TES, Iggy Pop, Belcher, and SI)... basically the storm side of combo gets hit in the nuts very hard with 8 free counters and 6 stifle affects + the quickest clock in aggro-control... plus a one sided challice... not to mention wastelands for those that use lands as resource... Yeah I would say it is a decent Mu for this deck....

Overall % is rediculously high so much so that I fear to put the real percentage (only lost a game in 30 + games, not including in the real field and post board it getts evern better with the addition of EE for tokens)... I will put it at 85%, seeing as the whole mind twist from Iggy can be so devastating.

Control (landstill and stax):

If playing against stax, just pack your shit and go get something to eat for the round... they always to manage either:
a.) challice at one & 2 or they get a first or second turn trinisphere... both of which are devastating... I only won 3 games out of 15 played against this.. it is not a pretty MU.

If playing against landstill you have a much better chance than stax, but it is still not favorable... They have more hater than you have threats... the only way you can survive this is they get screwed mana wise via wastes, colored producents, and stifles.... I won a couple matches from this... You can also overextend your board to the point where they are forced to use deed, you swing for rediculous amounts and they use their 4th and 5th lands (leaving like maybe 2 max open) to blow deed, then you stifle/trickbind and try to win the counter-war... I beat BHWC landstill twice with this tactic in tourney play beating it 2-0... but this is by far the biggest fluke ever.

The stax MU is impossible, the landstill MU is just very difficult and will never just be given to you... %ages... stax is like 20-25% whereas the landstill MU is closer to 45-50 %... grip comes in for both MUs.

Burn and Bligh... you have counterbalance, cuntermagic, and large critters outside of burn range... pretty damn good if you ask me... I only played a couple games against Goyf sligh, but I stomped it both times... I also beat burn 8/10 games, so I guess that is a good thing. You board out trickbinds and such for chills (I run 3 chills in the board now).

Michael Keller
11-18-2007, 08:17 PM
My suggestion:

Take out the Dreadnoughts. Stifle is fine as it obviously works on it's own accord. You play enough efficient beat-down where having a situational combo (yes, Trinket Mage is cute with P.D.) just seems like wasted slots. Trickbind is overkill when you consider that you're running four main-deck Stifles as is. Some things to consider in a change to the main build:

-2 Trickbind
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-2 Breeding Pool

+4 Mishra's Factory
+2 Island

Breeding Pool is just more fodder to Magus of the Moon and Wasteland. Fetching for basics is back in style and is a strategic play that can win you games alone.

Play Factories. Your mana-base is shaky as it is (as you play Wastelands with dual blue spells sans FoW). Including two Island to compensate for lost Pools will round out your base nicely. You only play technically eight green spells in the main build and undoubtedly more blue. Some thoughts.

thefreakaccident
11-18-2007, 08:28 PM
8 colorless mana producents in an already mana light deck does not sound too great to me... the stifle-nought combo is quite efficient, while being a 2 card combo that doesn't win the game imediately, it is in an aggro-control shell that can protect it for long enough to kill the opponent with it... The trickbinds are there for additional stifle slots... beleive it or not, you will love playing more than 4 stifles in a meta of wastelands, fetchlands, and random combo... they are also pretty darn good against survival and other control decks as well (manlands and deed)...

I may take out the forest for a second island, and just run blue fetches... but I like having that basic for crucible-waste lock... which frightens me (BHWC landstill shows to my local every week)...


The nought is a sidenote for the deck, being able to tutor up a wincon (especially one as huge as he) can be game winning, especially against a control deck that just used up all of its' answers to get rid of your team... Again, this still happens, even with all of the disruption this deck is packing...

Moons could be quite troublesome for this deck though... grip in the side is all I go for that besdies taking a pool out for an island (leaving me 2 islands and 1 forest, which seems decent)... thoughts?

Michael Keller
11-18-2007, 09:54 PM
8 colorless mana producents in an already mana light deck does not sound too great to me... the stifle-nought combo is quite efficient, while being a 2 card combo that doesn't win the game imediately, it is in an aggro-control shell that can protect it for long enough to kill the opponent with it... The trickbinds are there for additional stifle slots... beleive it or not, you will love playing more than 4 stifles in a meta of wastelands, fetchlands, and random combo... they are also pretty darn good against survival and other control decks as well (manlands and deed)...


1. You only run three cards with dual color in the casting cost. Nix the Wastelands then - you run enough disrupt with Stifle alone to stop opposing Wasteland and fetch.

2. The Stifle-Naught combo is not efficient - it's terrible given the the strategy of your deck. It's a completely dead card without having another specific one in your hand. You're giving up two slots for a card that can roll over to an Explosives for one, StP, Smother, Krosan Grip, etc. etc. when you play enough potent offense as is. That's called card disadvantage.

3. The Trickbinds are overkill.

4. Trickbinding a Survival is useless. All it does is buy you maybe 1/8 of a turn. You're over-thinking it too much - try and win a game by drawing cards or beating down rather than putting everything on hold.

5. I won't love playing 6 counter-trigger/activation spells because the format is being overrun with Tarmogoyfs and not combo anymore. Stifle - alone - is sufficient.

Rood
11-19-2007, 12:18 AM
Dreadnought is a freaking manhandle card I can see why you chose to run him for many reasons. Have you considered Chills over REBs in the side? The only issue I can see with this deck is you run no pure CA cards only cantrips that replace themselves. One of the reasons the UG Threshold version worked so well was it had perdicts to generate CA if it needed to burn counter on w/e they played. Even though Ponder makes Goyf generally larger I'd highly suggest running Perdicts over them simple for the fact it can replenish your hand if needed.

thefreakaccident
11-19-2007, 12:41 AM
I have not considered chill, it actually seems a lot stronger given the theme of the deck... thanks for the idea.

The predict idea also seems to have some merit, especially with the deck runs, you usually have to know what your top card is all the time anyways... thanks for the suggestions!

I agree with both of you guys... 1.) that goyf is a dead card on his own, sometimes... 2.) that he is a game ending card, he is soooo powerful that he is worth the risk, by himself he ends the game in two turns... that's power!

Occasionally I will cast one without stifle to draw out countermagic (occasionally after game one they fear trickbind), and to pump goyfs by two...

Dreadnought gets tutored/casted when you have the protection for him... usually starting off the game with a stifle on a fetch... a couple trips/critters, then waste a land and cast him with either CB, daze, or FoW as backup... they have 2 lands and you have free countermagic + Cb + a 2 turn clock... the game doesn't look too good for them, especially if they fear seeing another wasteland (which is not unlikely).

Rood
11-19-2007, 12:56 AM
Have you also considered increasing the number of noughts in deck to 3-4? He's explosive as hell and if you can increase your chances to get off a T2 naught it will flat out sometimes just win against alot of decks.

Illissius
11-19-2007, 07:38 AM
Vesuvan Shapeshifter also combos with Dreadnought if you want to try that out.

Nydaeli
11-19-2007, 01:45 PM
There's a Vintage deck that T8ed twice at SCG Chicago:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=23671

Obviously Vintage is a different format, but this is a similar deck. I've been working on a Legacy port of it. The black splash is really good. I'd run the same creature base as the Vintage deck, with Dreadnought as a singleton. EE and Tormod's Crypt should both be maindecked, in my opinion, and possibly Pithing Needle (though it is somewhat redundant with four Stifle). Counterbalance is definitely a good addition. Lastly, I've been experimenting with Chrome Mox. I'm not sure if it's going to stay or not.

So Annoying My Account Is Banned
11-19-2007, 04:46 PM
Do you get threshold consistantly with only 8 (9 counting spellbomb) cantrips? Splashing black as Nydaeli suggested and running thoughtseize seems better to me. It could protect your nought combo and disrupt your opponent early game.

thefreakaccident
11-19-2007, 08:28 PM
Nydaeli, what would a possible list for a port look like...

If I were to port it to a UGB list.. it would probably look like this:

lands//20
4 tropical island
4 underground sea
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
2 island
2 flooded strand

creatures//12
4 tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant
4 trinket mage
1 phyrexian dreadnought

spells//28
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
3 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
4 predict
2 sensei's divining top
1 engineered explosives
1 phyrexian fernace
1 aether spell bomb

sideboard//
4 engineered plague
3 krosan grip
2 engineered explosives
3 tormod's crypt
3 pithing needle


The deck seems a little stronger as it seems to have a little more control... but I beleive that the deck should play much like tempo thresh, where you get the tempo war on your side while you beats in for the win with a little bit of protection to back it up...

You could also put it into a more aggressive version of the deck, which is where I originally started out with... it runs chrome moxes, predicts, and more dreadnoughts for the higher possibility of getting quick dreadnought kills... it was dropped for being a little too explosive and not being as resilient... What would you propose you guys?

Michael Keller
11-19-2007, 10:05 PM
What would you propose you guys?

Take out the Phyrexian Dreadnought and replace it with something that wins.

blitz
11-19-2007, 11:03 PM
Take out the Phyrexian Dreadnought and replace it with something that wins.

He thinks it DOES win, otherwise that question never would have been asked.

Mister Agent
11-19-2007, 11:34 PM
Here is a stifle nought deck that looks very similiar to the deck you have robert(freakaccident). However your nought deck is definetly more aggro-control while this one leans towards to more of a strict control style build with no goyfs. Although to tell you the truth Robert I think yours is more resilient due to the fact that you can choose to play aggro when needed.

16th place at the 2007 legacy championships stifle nought deck

lands
3 Academy Ruins
2 Flooded Strand
8 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Underground Sea

Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

Other spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
4 Stifle
3 trickbind

Sideboard
3 Back to Basics
4 Chill
2 Echoing Truth
3 Energy Flux
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

thefreakaccident
11-19-2007, 11:41 PM
Take out the Phyrexian Dreadnought and replace it with something that wins.

Phyrexian dreadnought does win, and it does so in an extremely fast fashion... imagine a super goyf with trample, and no dependance on the yard...

He gives the deck a tutorable powerhouse... what more can you ask for?

I think that you should at least test him before knocking him... he suffers from no less than what goyf suffers except artifact destruction... but not many decks pack MD artifact destruction anymore...

The sad part of the matter is that I will probably play this at the Dec. 1st tourney at GE and probably win the entire thing, since this deck was designed to wreck my meta... It could be a weak meta choice against black aggro meta, namely pikula (discard isn't all that bad, just non-waste LD)...

The deck is based off of synergy, whereas everything ties into eachother... trinket for top for CB, trinket for nought, stifle for nought... stifle + wasteland = pretty good mana screw for opponent, all of which pump gpyf to high heavens, goose likes a couple free turns to swing, so does goyf... daze, fow, wasteland, and stifle make that possible...

Things that current decks hate:

threshold: LD, and larger creatures... counter-top rapes its' mother as well

combo: 6 stifles + 8 free countermagic, + one sided challice... can it get any better?

Landstill, need lands... admittedly a bad MU, but it is much better here than regualr thresh, and not many would argue this point... I would run pithing needle in the main if I feared landstill to come in force.

control in general- love to make it to the late game, usually strive on having lots of lands, we keep them off of those while providing the largest beats known to legacy (goyf and dreadnought).

Most of these are quick veiws on the major things that this deck likes to exploit and things that decks tend to not want to see... the lists looks quite similar.

I will be testing predict for a while now, it has shown promise in recent testing...

Nosomo.
11-20-2007, 01:31 AM
Phyrexian dreadnought does win, and it does so in an extremely fast fashion... imagine a super goyf with trample, and no dependance on the yard...

The only prblem with this powerhouse is its dependancy on the stifle, it is useless without it.

Yes true but if they can sneak by a chalice for 1 and 2 like last time Robert, they will rape your mother.

But if you can get a Nought on the board then "Darkness The Tables Have Turned"!!

Rood
11-20-2007, 08:24 AM
A more controllish version w/o green.

/ Lands
2 [MM] Island (3)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
6 [IA] Island (2)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [REW] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
1 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [OD] Standstill

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [6E] Chill
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [SC] Stabilizer
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall

Nydaeli
11-20-2007, 03:47 PM
If I were to port it to a UGB list.. it would probably look like this:

That looks pretty similar to my current list, except that I'm running 2/2 Duress/Thoughtseize instead of Daze, and Ponder over Predict. I'm not sure whether Daze is worth running, since it hinders your ability to get out an early Trinket Mage, etc., but it might be correct. Predict is nice but I don't think it's good enough without more cantrips to set it up.

Black_Dog
11-20-2007, 04:29 PM
I've actually played this deck on a few occasions. Anything with a high mana curve and lotta disruption (Trins, Nether Void, 1st turn Chalice) dismantles this deck...

On the other hand...everything else tends to get kicked in the nuts very hard.

Its a cool deck.

I just hate it because I'm sick of of Tarm and Counterbalance being overrated.

But this isn't that new. Every 3rd person in the M-L are playing with this thing and I saw in Prague last week o_O

Rood
11-23-2007, 11:01 AM
This deck closely resembles the deck that T8'd the vintage tourny Deeznaughts, I believe it has alot of potential in the current meta.

thefreakaccident
11-23-2007, 03:53 PM
I have been playtesting a lot! I could post up some MU annalyses if you guys wish.. I think it could bring up some more discussion, seeing as what Black Dog said is essentially correct.

Mister Agent
11-24-2007, 03:22 AM
Robert I am going to give your original stifle nought deck a spin sometime before the weekend is over. I will probably get some time to test against quite a few decks in the format. I will most likely playtest quite a bit sunday night and monday night since I will be off from work Monday and Tues of next week. I will then post the results in this thread whenever I get the time.