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Phantom
11-20-2007, 09:33 PM
So FS splashes, much like Angel Stompy splashes, always look nice on paper, but have never really caught on. Part of this is that the deck is already too inconsistent for some players, and I think the other part is the recent shift in the meta game has made the FS splashes less powerful (FtK and Clasm aren't the bombs they once were). Still, I wanted to explore the black splash. Why? Shriekmaw son. Evasive creatures that double as removal spells that can hit Goyf sound pretty damn nice. I've never been big on Demon Stompy, so I figured a splash into FS might be possible.

The black splash does offer some other interesting options such as Moroii, Shadowmage Infiltrator, and some quality sideboard options like Leyline. Also, it makes fetchable Explosives that much better.

Anyway, wanted to get a first draft down and see if anyone had any thoughts.

// Lands
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Island (3)

// Creatures (not sure about the numbers here)
4 [P2] Sea Drake
3 [AN] Serendib Efreet
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [LRW] Pestermite
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [LRW] Mulldrifter
3 Negator

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [AL] Force of Will (I was actually thinking about cutting this. Am I nuts?)
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

DeathwingZERO
11-20-2007, 11:39 PM
Personally, I'm mostly curious about the 1 EE and Pithing Needle choices. Would you say that a 1 of from either would suffice in a standardized metagame?

I've also been wondering about the power level of SoFI as opposed to SoLS as of late. With the rather large shift of black becoming the new test splash, would you say that still playing a 3 of SoFI and no SoLS to be a good choice overall, as well?

The potential of Mulldrifter in constructed seems useful, but I always thought it was rather lackluster. It's either a 5 mana 2/2 that needs equipping to be a threat, or a Counsel of the Soratami. What are your thoughts on it so far? Any options you would be looking to replace it with, if it's eventually cut?

I personally was always a fan of having at least the FoW in FS builds. It's very helpful to backup the threats so they can equip, and dropping Chalice early on. I really don't know what you would cut it for, except maybe proactive discard like Thoughtseize (seems a tad bit of life loss overall here) or Duress, maybe.

Pestermite looks like great combat tricks, Shriekmaw is great for the obvious listed reasons, and the rest of the creature base seems pretty strong overall.

What's your average life loss per game from the creatures and lands together? I assume it's not much different than regular FS builds, but just curious of Moroii makes anything worse, or if the deck could possibly pack Thoughtseize if the slots open for it, or as a possible SB option. Speaking of that, what are your thoughts on a SB so far?

Tacosnape
11-20-2007, 11:50 PM
I think cutting Force of Will from that maindeck is the correct choice, but not cutting it from the deck entirely.

The problem with that list is that every single blue card you have except Force itself is a threat. So it blows in Aggro and Control matchups, both of which you want as many threats as possible. Essentially you've reduced Force of Will to being an anti-combo or anti-artifact/enchantment card.

However, this suggests that there is a huge weakness with the list. Because not only does this mean Force is sucking up your threats, it means Chrome Mox is doing the same thing. Therefore unless you're imprinting Force on a Chrome (Which used to be an auto-play for me in Faerie Stompy if I had both in hand,) you're going to be relying on one or two threats to win the entire game.

DeathwingZERO
11-20-2007, 11:54 PM
Actually now that you pointed it out, the Chrome was another choice I am not too sure I'm sold on at this point. Would this deck be better off running say Lotus Petal for the first turn or two, or maybe even just putting the blue and black mana sources up a bit?

Media314r8
11-20-2007, 11:57 PM
This deck almost makes me want to drop the shorelines for two more lands and play mox diamond. I think Mulldrifter is cuts, along with pestermite to make room for more Moroii (who I think is amazing and is the best and almost necessary mox imprint aside from shadowmage), trinket mage, and shriekmaw. I'm pleased to see vault in your list, I was about to recomend it. Seems like a more aggresive version of FS with better Sb options... the manabase seems like it would (gulp) make the deck even more suseptable to mulligans (again, my reason for wanting diamond mox and higher land count. (possibly faerie conlcaves to serve as an additional threat and to buff our land count so we can play diamond?)

Deserves serious investigation.

Kronicler
11-21-2007, 12:02 AM
No way in god's name could you ever cut chrome mox from a FS list. CMox is one of those cards that you hate but can't life without in a lot of decks, for example TES and FS. Both decks need the speed that CMox provides, but at the same time they can be dead draws and are utterly horrible in multiples. Unfortunately we have to live with these drawbacks because the speed that CMox provides is unmatched (and with Sea Drake it is just stupid, as we all know). In terms of the deck, I think that both Mulldrifter and Shriekmaw are stronger than Pestermite. Now I know that the mite can do all sorts of tricks, but we need the 4th Serendib and probably the 4th Shriekmaw (goddamn this seems hella sexy here) as well as the Trinket Mage. These lead me to remove the pestermites for the things I talked about. Of course these are all untested changes, but they seem right to me, not that that means much, lol.

Kronicler

Jak
11-21-2007, 12:17 AM
Play 20 lands and Mox Diamond? Force is awesome. Those ar emy only thoughts.

Phantom
11-21-2007, 01:03 AM
Thanks for all the early feedback fellas. Let's get to it:


Personally, I'm mostly curious about the 1 EE and Pithing Needle choices. Would you say that a 1 of from either would suffice in a standardized metagame?

I'm assuming you missed Trinket Mage? Let me know if you want me to go further.


I've also been wondering about the power level of SoFI as opposed to SoLS as of late. With the rather large shift of black becoming the new test splash, would you say that still playing a 3 of SoFI and no SoLS to be a good choice overall, as well?

Nah, I still think Fire and Ice is head and shoulders above Light and shadow. A lot of black removal can't hit the guys here. Plus, Red splash Thresh is getting more popular than white, and UG with bounce is growing too. Not to mention that drawing a card and 2 damage >>> maybe getting a creature back and 3 life (although this is cool with Evoke). I'll let you know if I change my mind.


The potential of Mulldrifter in constructed seems useful, but I always thought it was rather lackluster. It's either a 5 mana 2/2 that needs equipping to be a threat, or a Counsel of the Soratami. What are your thoughts on it so far? Any options you would be looking to replace it with, if it's eventually cut?

Haven't tested it enough to know for sure, but I love the fact that if I don't need (or want) a 2/2 for 4U, then I just use him as a 2U, draw 2, often times turn 1. The fact is the deck needs draw, and even Shadowmage Infiltrator is conditional (and dedicated removal in an equipment deck kinda sucks). I'll let you know how the testing goes though.


I personally was always a fan of having at least the FoW in FS builds. It's very helpful to backup the threats so they can equip, and dropping Chalice early on. I really don't know what you would cut it for, except maybe proactive discard like Thoughtseize (seems a tad bit of life loss overall here) or Duress, maybe.

Sadly there is no great 2B discard spell (umm, hello WOTC?) and Duress/TSeize are out of the question in my mind. Unmask is the best possibility, but I'm not sure I run enough black for it. Bleh. I guess maybe I could side in discard in conjunction with Chalice, but we'll see.


What's your average life loss per game from the creatures and lands together? I assume it's not much different than regular FS builds, but just curious of Moroii makes anything worse, or if the deck could possibly pack Thoughtseize if the slots open for it, or as a possible SB option. Speaking of that, what are your thoughts on a SB so far?

I am worried about the life loss between Serendib, Moroii, fetches, Tomb. I'll keep you posted.

As for the board, I have four Leylines, some Trinket targets, and I have no clue.


I think cutting Force of Will from that maindeck is the correct choice, but not cutting it from the deck entirely.

The problem with that list is that every single blue card you have except Force itself is a threat. So it blows in Aggro and Control matchups, both of which you want as many threats as possible. Essentially you've reduced Force of Will to being an anti-combo or anti-artifact/enchantment card.

However, this suggests that there is a huge weakness with the list. Because not only does this mean Force is sucking up your threats, it means Chrome Mox is doing the same thing. Therefore unless you're imprinting Force on a Chrome (Which used to be an auto-play for me in Faerie Stompy if I had both in hand,) you're going to be relying on one or two threats to win the entire game.

I think you may be right about cutting Force, and I can't even believe it myself (next I'll be cutting Chalice and Jitte...) I'm thinking maybe Shadowmage Infiltrator in that spot (and try to draw through the Mox pitch disadvantage?). This does open me up to having more mono black cards if I want.

@ Mox Diamond: I've tried Mox Diamond in a FS splash build. I tried, and I tried, and I tried. It just doesn't work. You need at least 25 lands + 4 mox, and that eats up half your deck right there. So I try to throw as many multicolor spells in here as possible, so the Chrome Mox can act accordingly if needed.

I will admit I'm worried about holding up vs Stifle+Waste and Blood Moon strategies.

Tacosnape
11-21-2007, 01:19 AM
I think you may be right about cutting Force, and I can't even believe it myself (next I'll be cutting Chalice and Jitte...) I'm thinking maybe Shadowmage Infiltrator in that spot (and try to draw through the Mox pitch disadvantage?). This does open me up to having more mono black cards if I want.

Like Phyrexian Negator. And with all the easily castable permanents you run, this is a hell of a deck for him.

Phantom
11-21-2007, 02:00 AM
Like Phyrexian Negator. And with all the easily castable permanents you run, this is a hell of a deck for him.

Good call there. From some little testing I can tell that Shriekmaw is insane. Even though he's crap vs combo and black aggro, I'm thinking of going up to 4. Mulldrifter has been less spectacular. Moroii, even worse. The gold cards are great imprints, but their mana requirements can be a problem. I've love Infiltrator when down though. I'm thinking I'll try:

-1 Tomb
-2 Shoreline
+2 Fetches
+1 Dual

Slows me down a tad, but I'll be able to get UB more consistently for Shadowmage, and 2B for Big Negs.

and

-1 Mulldrifter
-2 Moroii
+3 Big Negs


Edit: This build is testing pretty damn well, at least against White Thresh.

DeathwingZERO
11-21-2007, 02:05 AM
That actually sounds like an excellent start for evolution. I think on paper Negator seems to fit very well here, though it'd probably cause for some different strategies than normal FS plays.

I'm going to actually throw together a list of what has currently been suggested, and see how it runs. I may also end up cutting out some fetches for more basics to see if it's even possible to run Mox Diamond.

I'm assuming it's just going to have to be Chrome Mox, but it always hurt me even in traditional mono-blue FS to pitch a card for that first turn colored mana. Being down to 3 cards in hand for a threat on turn 1 just always felt like a bad play, especially when the 4th card that pitched to the Mox was usually another beater.

zulander
12-13-2007, 04:10 PM
Hey guys, long time eh. I've been playing aggro loam for the most part recently and I was thinking of playing the black splash recently. Here's the list I've come up with.

Mana: 22
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Tomb
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp

Beats: 21
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Pestermite
3 Mulldrifter
3 Shriekmaw

Control: 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinishphere

Equipment: 6
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte


Now the problem I have is that there's 3 slots left. What should they be? I was thinking FoW but I only run 14 blue cards so I think they wouldn't be all that great. The nice thing about the black splash is that now instead of only running 8 threats I'm able to run 12 dedicated threats and 9 backup threats that have evasion via flying or fear. If there was a decent discard spell that cast 2B for those last three spots, should I put it in? I've been thinking of something like Stupor/Mind Rot or even Delirium Skeins.

Maveric78f
12-14-2007, 07:05 AM
Gator is sooo bad.

zulander
12-14-2007, 10:43 AM
Gator is sooo bad.
So is your post!

nitewolf9
12-14-2007, 10:53 AM
Gator is sooo bad ass.

fixed

etrigan
12-14-2007, 11:00 AM
Sadly there is no great 2B discard spell (umm, hello WOTC?) and Duress/TSeize are out of the question in my mind. Unmask is the best possibility, but I'm not sure I run enough black for it. Bleh. I guess maybe I could side in discard in conjunction with Chalice, but we'll see.


Stupid? Coercion? Neither is 'great', but are serviceable, and fit the bill at 2B. For the love of god, dont run Unmask.

Maveric78f
12-14-2007, 11:28 AM
So is your post!

I know I'm sorry for that, but I can't understant how smart people like can still play such a bad creature in that metagame. It's often weaker than the best creature in the format for 1 mana more. It will never be able to attack because most of the decks play creatures and finally, it is awfully dangerous. You can play some in SB but I would never play it MD.

Explain me. Against which archetype do you think it's good ?

Phantom
12-14-2007, 12:03 PM
@ Mav: Of course Negator has some trouble with Goyf (although if we start not running creatures because they are weaker but more expensive than goyf, we will be in a lot of trouble) and I have been a fairly large detractor of Big Negs' risk reward nature in the past, but we do have some things going for us here:

1) Negator is our best creature against combo.

2) We have a lot of quality ways to deal with goyfs including Maw, Trinket Mage for Explosives, Chalice@2, Pestermite etc.

3) We can drop Negator super early. Combine that with the fact that we don't really put a lot of things in the yard, and often Negs will be trampling over a 2/3 craptacular Goyf on turn 2 or 3.

4) Equipment works in our favor as well. If Negator can survive the swing in with a Jitte or Sword attached, sometimes saccing the ret of our board still wins us the game.

I haven't done enough testing to be sure he's the right choice, but I thought i would share my thoughts.

Maveric78f
12-14-2007, 12:29 PM
I thought that the best creature against cobo was trinket mage. And basically, your builds do not pack 4 of them. About your ways to deal with tarmogoyf, once more, they are not 4-of. According to me, it is clear that the creature base should be 4*trinket mage, 4*mulldrifter, 4*Shriekmaw and 8*big blue creatures before thinking about gator. As I think that 20 creatures is far enough, it condemns it.

Cutting FoW from the MD is the way to go I think.

Phantom
12-14-2007, 12:48 PM
Trinket Mage is our best TUTOR against combo. The ten turn clock does give them a while to find an answer to our Chalice though.

The reason I don't run 4 of any of those creatures is that they are dead (or near dead) in certain matchups (or in drifters case, certain times) so I really don't want to get stuck with two Maws in my hand against Sui Black. Maybe I'll keep the extras in the board. Notice how I'm also only running 3 Negators. I'm still playing with all the numbers though.

Basing the deck around Maw, Trinket, and Drifter is pretty dangerous though as it ups your dependence on equipment. I'd much rather base it around cheaper fatties and let the other cards serve a support function.

zulander
12-14-2007, 01:29 PM
I think it's silly to not run a creature because you're afraid of tarmogoyf. Fact of the matter is that this deck can play a turn 1 negator followed by a turn 2 chalice/trinisphere. Usually you'll win by the time they even get a goyf larger than 3/4. Don't forget that this deck also runs chalice(which you can set at 2 if you're scared of goyf), shriekmaw and another 8 other beaters that can swing in.

Versus
12-14-2007, 01:39 PM
I think the splash simply for Maw and EE @ 2 is absolutly worthy on it's own. Gator is great and can be great here, but I'd rather have the FoW and more cards to support it.

On that note and concerning Gator. Can Mox be cast without imprinting? Dead Moxes would make excellent sac outlets for him.

HdH_Cthulhu
12-14-2007, 02:56 PM
I think the splash simply for Maw and EE @ 2 is absolutly worthy on it's own. Gator is great and can be great here, but I'd rather have the FoW and more cards to support it.

On that note and concerning Gator. Can Mox be cast without imprinting? Dead Moxes would make excellent sac outlets for him.

Yes!

zulander
12-16-2007, 01:05 AM
So I took the list I posted earlier to the frog tournament here and made top 8, but lost in the first round due to a misplay on my part and a fairly bad matchup for me as well (he was playing geddon stax w/ angels/magus of tabernacle).

However the tournament did prove to be of significant value to me making me re-consider Force of Will. I think it's simply too good to not include and helps with a ton of matchups. Here's the list I'm going to be running:

Mana: 24 (needed to add 2 more for consistency.)
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
4 Polltued Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp

Creatres: 22
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Sea Drake
4 Mulldrifter
3 Pestermite
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Shriekmaw

Disruption: 8
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

Other: 6
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Jitte.

Side: 15
3 Trinisphere
3 Crypt
2 Trinket Mage
2 Trickbind
4 Engineered Plague
1 Shriekmaw


Overall I enjoyed the deck a lot but had some consistency problems due to not enough mana in my opening hands. Hopefully the 24 mana count should help out with this and allow me to access more permanent sources. Like I mentioned earlier, Force really should have been in my deck instead of 3sphere. There really isn't a need for 3sphere main over force against most matchups, and had I had them main I may have won a couple extra games. Also, mulldrifter rocked the heck out tonight so I decided to bump him up to a four of, he's just sick.

As far as the board goes here's what I bring in/out:
Combo
In: 3 trinisphere, 2 trickbind (if it's storm combo), 2 trinket mage, 4 plague(if it's empty the warrents)

out: 6 equipment, 3 shriekmaw, and if i have to bring in all 11 pieces of anti combo then 2 pestermites come out as well. trinket mages are basically chalice 5-6 in these matchups.

Control:
Depends, but most likely bring in 2 trinket mages as chalice 5-6.

Aggro-Control:
1 shrekmaw, maybe plagues if it's a tribal deck (goblins/slivers/elves)

You board in crypts in the obvious matchups as well.

Please post any constructive criticism/comments on the build I have and if you have anything to suggest please feel free.

Maveric78f
12-16-2007, 05:56 AM
Basing the deck around Maw, Trinket, and Drifter is pretty dangerous though as it ups your dependence on equipment. I'd much rather base it around cheaper fatties and let the other cards serve a support function.

I would also play 8*flying fatties which would balance the "small creatures" base.

Gator is not bad only against tarmogoyf (and being bad against tarmogoyf would be a good argument in such a metagame), it's bad against meddling mage naming shriekmaw, against dark confidant, against nimble mongoose, against mother of runes, against fanatic and against every gob deck (and I'm far from being exhaustive). Relying on chalice@2 is completely utopic, because the first one is rarely faster than a tarmogoyf and every deck with tarmogoyf would be able to deal with it quite easily (either discard or counterspells). Relying on Shriekmaw is a bit more realistic if you played more than 2 of them. Even if you play 4 of them, it remains that your threshold opponent will be more probably able to find his tarmogoyf than you to find your shriekmaws (cantrips rule).

I tested a lot Demon Stompy and I hated it very fast. I don't see a single reason to prefer it in your archetype.

zulander
12-16-2007, 10:18 AM
it's bad against meddling mage naming shriekmaw, against dark confidant.
This has to be the dumbest thing I've read all morning. How is negator bad against confidant and mage? Chances are they won't block with them and you'll be able to swing in for 5. And if they do block then guess what, they don't have a mage naming shreikmaw and they wont have a confidant. That's good for you.

On a side note, the deck plays negator. Get over it.

VsTheWorld
12-17-2007, 01:05 AM
With my limited testing of the black splash, I've come to a few conclusions:
1. Shriekmaw is an absolute beast.
2. Force of Will needs a place in the deck.
3. Trinisphere is significantly worse than Chalice against everything except storm combo.
4. Related to points 2 and 3, Trinket Mage still deserves his spot in the deck.
5. My opinion on the huge point of debate: Negator is NOT a necessary evil. Negator is not necessary. Negator is just evil. Despite the fact that you can drop Mox imprinting nothing or play worthless Chalices as Negator fodder, Faerie Stompy usually can't afford to sac its stuff. The deck is very tight on land, you almost never want to sac an imprinted Mox, and you certainly don't want to sac your other beaters. Too often I'd find myself saccing Negator to itself because I couldn't afford to have it dealt damage again. I know that turn 1 Negator puts most decks on a very short clock, but fast aggro will race and/or burn it, Landstill will happily trade a Factory for 3 of your permanents, Thresh will drop Goyf and/or Bolt it if you don't have Chalice/SoFI protection. Faerie Stompy is inconsistent enough as it is, it doesn't need to wipe its own board. That being said, I have not completely dismissed it as an option yet, and I can certainly understand arguments in favor of it, because a turn 1 5/5 trample is just plain sexy.

Here's my current list (still very rough, numbers need work):

// Deck file for Magic Workstation
//NAME: Faerie Stompy

// Mana Sources - 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers
4 Chrome Mox

// Creatures - 23
4 Mulldrifter
3 Pestermite
2 Phyrexian Negator
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
3 Shriekmaw
3 Trinket Mage

// Spells - 15
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Winter Orb

Despite my previous objections, the 2 Negators are there because I haven't found anything great to fill that slot yet. I feel like I could maybe up the mana sources to 23 and MD the 4th Chalice in place of the Negators, but I'm still in serious need of testing.

Maveric78f
12-17-2007, 05:17 AM
This has to be the dumbest thing I've read all morning. How is negator bad against confidant and mage? Chances are they won't block with them and you'll be able to swing in for 5. And if they do block then guess what, they don't have a mage naming shreikmaw and they wont have a confidant. That's good for you.

You should read yourself before posting... If I have the opportunity to do CA against a deck with such a card disadvantage I barely never refuse it even at the expense of some life (if not lethal obviously).


Despite my previous objections, the 2 Negators are there because I haven't found anything great to fill that slot yet. I feel like I could maybe up the mana sources to 23 and MD the 4th Chalice in place of the Negators, but I'm still in serious need of testing.

Or simply raise the shriekmaw and trinket mage's slots by 1. I'm not completely fan of pestermite neither but as I never played FS I may be wrong, and I think that chalice should absolutely be @4.

VsTheWorld
12-17-2007, 05:58 AM
Basically the only reason I don't want to go to 4 Shriekmaw is that in certain matchups, it's less than stellar. Against Sui Black, it's a vanilla 3/2 who you not be able to play because you'd have to kill your own guy. Same goes for the Landstill matchup.

Maveric78f
12-17-2007, 06:52 AM
Well I think that SUI Black is auto win and that Landstill is almost autoloss. So, it's not really relevant.

zulander
12-17-2007, 07:16 AM
I never played FS

Okay, now I understand fully why you've given the advise you have.


I would also play 8*flying fatties which would balance the "small creatures" base.
If you played this deck, hell, if you've ever read the FS thread, one of the biggest problems with the deck is that it needs threat #9-12. Trinket mage/Mulldrifter/Pestermite/CoF are all nice, but without equipment they aren't totally relevant to the life totals.


You should read yourself before posting... If I have the opportunity to do CA against a deck with such a card disadvantage I barely never refuse it even at the expense of some life (if not lethal obviously).
Then why the hell would you post that your Meddling Mage is naming Shriekmaw? If the lone purpose was to chump block a negator then whatever it's naming doesn't matter. Your post made it seem that mage naming shriekmaw = gg.


Or simply raise the shriekmaw and trinket mage's slots by 1.
You could maybe add a fourth mage, but adding the fourth shriekmaw is not a good thing unless your metagame consists of nothing but 9 land stompy. While shriekmaw is great, he can be narrow, especially against combo.

Maveric78f
12-17-2007, 10:22 AM
Okay, now I understand fully why you've given the advise you have.

Tell me what slot your gators are supposed to replace from FS. I know stompy decks very well but I never played FS myself. However I played myself a lot Demon Stompy and it was clear for everybody that gator was bad. Ithink that the DS analogy is more worth that the FS one.


If you played this deck, hell, if you've ever read the FS thread, one of the biggest problems with the deck is that it needs threat #9-12.

Arfff. Gator is not a threat for a lot of decks... But the 8 flying guys are for sure. For some reason, I never play red and though, I never had any problem against gator. Once Gator is equipped, it becomes a bit better, as well as the weaker creatures actually...

If you definitely want another big guy, I don't know just play gathan raiders, phyrexian scouta (I don't like it neither actually), grinning demon...


Trinket mage/Mulldrifter/Pestermite/CoF are all nice, but without equipment they aren't totally relevant to the life totals.

Exactly what I said. Mulldrifter/Pestermite/CoF will at least ping a bit your opponent when gator will be stuck in defense. Trinket Mage is golden either way.


Then why the hell would you post that your Meddling Mage is naming Shriekmaw? If the lone purpose was to chump block a negator then whatever it's naming doesn't matter. Your post made it seem that mage naming shriekmaw = gg.

Meddling mage is bad against aggro but it's good against gator. Any creature is good against gator actually, because any creature will be able to make card advantage against gator.


You could maybe add a fourth mage, but adding the fourth shriekmaw is not a good thing unless your metagame consists of nothing but 9 land stompy. While shriekmaw is great, he can be narrow, especially against combo.

Usually stompy decks just need 1 creature into play. Once more you tell that Gator is perfect against combo but it's very weak. It gives you a 4-turn clock against combo. That's way too long. Aggro mode is not the solution against combo, aggro-controle mode is the solution, with chalice and trinisphere or FoW. When some people say that landstill should play more aggro against combo, it's because it's far too slow and because combo can build its hand such that it would be undisruptable.

And Shriekmaw is not narrow, it's card advantage, it's unblockable, it's 3 power...

zulander
12-17-2007, 01:35 PM
Tell me what slot your gators are supposed to replace from FS. I know stompy decks very well but I never played FS myself. However I played myself a lot Demon Stompy and it was clear for everybody that gator was bad. Ithink that the DS analogy is more worth that the FS one.
Gator takes up trinket mages slot in my build while pestermite takes up CoF.
I understand you're hesitant about playing gator but I think gator fits in this deck nicely.


Arfff. Gator is not a threat for a lot of decks... But the 8 flying guys are for sure. For some reason, I never play red and though, I never had any problem against gator. Once Gator is equipped, it becomes a bit better, as well as the weaker creatures actually...

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying you've never had a problem with an opposing negator, but then when they equip a negator it's easier to play against it??



If you definitely want another big guy, I don't know just play gathan raiders, phyrexian scouta (I don't like it neither actually), grinning demon...

What would I gain from gathan raiders? He's card disadvantage too having to discard a card. And now with 4 mulldrifter I don't empty my hand as fast as I used to so I'm paying 3colorless, discarding a card for what.. a 3/3? Grinind demon is also bad because he has no evasion. Sure a 6/6 is nice, but what happens if they're able to chump block him? Every creature in this deck needs some sort of evasion via fly/trample/fear etc...



Exactly what I said. Mulldrifter/Pestermite/CoF will at least ping a bit your opponent when gator will be stuck in defense. Trinket Mage is golden either way.

My point was that by themself they are not a clock, and that the deck needs more than just 8 aggresive creatures.



Meddling mage is bad against aggro but it's good against gator. Any creature is good against gator actually, because any creature will be able to make card advantage against gator.

In that case, why play Force of Will?? You basically turn any card your opponent plays into a Hymn to Taurach, and we all know that card advantage lost isn't worth it, right? And while we're trying to save card advantage we should cut chrome mox too. /sarcasm



Usually stompy decks just need 1 creature into play. Once more you tell that Gator is perfect against combo but it's very weak. It gives you a 4-turn clock against combo. That's way too long. Aggro mode is not the solution against combo, aggro-controle mode is the solution, with chalice and trinisphere or FoW. When some people say that landstill should play more aggro against combo, it's because it's far too slow and because combo can build its hand such that it would be undisruptable.

No one said that Big Negs was taking control slots away from the deck. And I never said you should play Big Negs and act like the game is over, especially without a force/chalice. However, putting combo on a clock is better than playing a 1/1 cloud of faerie.



And Shriekmaw is not narrow, it's card advantage, it's unblockable, it's 3 power...
Which is fine, but as a 4 of you'll run the risk of having it stuck in your hand because they don't have a creature, and if you were to play it you'd have to blow up one of your guys.

Wallace
12-17-2007, 03:28 PM
This looks close to the Dark Skies like I posted (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7754)a while back. Why are you not running Oona's Prowler, a 3/1 flyer fo :1::b: is sick.

Phantom
12-17-2007, 03:39 PM
This looks close to the Dark Skies like I posted (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7754)a while back. Why are you not running Oona's Prowler, a 3/1 flyer fo :1::b: is sick.

Prowler is one of those objectively powerful cards that just plain sucks in Legacy.

If it were a 3/1 flyer for 2, it would be sick, but really the card should be named "Turn matchups into autolosses". Why, in this meta that is so graveyard dependant, would anyone want to GIVE the opponent a discard outlet free of charge? Ichorid, Tarmogoyf, Threshold, Madness, Reanimator, etc. It also makes Chalice @2 hurt us more, not to mention it allows the cards shut down by Chalice to serve useful purpose, and I love when I swing in with a jitte and come back with no counters...

zulander
12-17-2007, 04:47 PM
Prowler is one of those objectively powerful cards that just plain sucks in Legacy.

If it were a 3/1 flyer for 2, it would be sick, but really the card should be named "Turn matchups into autolosses". Why, in this meta that is so graveyard dependant, would anyone want to GIVE the opponent a discard outlet free of charge? Ichorid, Tarmogoyf, Threshold, Madness, Reanimator, etc. It also makes Chalice @2 hurt us more, not to mention it allows the cards shut down by Chalice to serve useful purpose, and I love when I swing in with a jitte and come back with no counters...

That pretty much sums it up lol. I personally don't mind the white splash of FS with 1 angel and 2/3 other fliers but I think the black one is a heluva lot of fun to play.

Maveric78f
12-18-2007, 04:12 AM
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying you've never had a problem with an opposing negator, but then when they equip a negator it's easier to play against it??

I say that Gator is better once equipped because the card disadvantage is balanced with the equipment trigger. I say also that it's the same with Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.


What would I gain from gathan raiders? He's card disadvantage too having to discard a card.

It's 1 card disadvantage, and it's not necessary. You may want to keep it 2/2 as long as you have nothing to discard.


And now with 4 mulldrifter I don't empty my hand as fast as I used to so I'm paying 3colorless, discarding a card for what.. a 3/3?

I can understand that even if I doubt it. I would need some testing to figure it out.


Grinind demon is also bad because he has no evasion. Sure a 6/6 is nice, but what happens if they're able to chump block him? Every creature in this deck needs some sort of evasion via fly/trample/fear etc...

I'm not sure about this neither. In this case just play Morooi. But I'm still not sure you need another big guy.


In that case, why play Force of Will?? You basically turn any card your opponent plays into a Hymn to Taurach, and we all know that card advantage lost isn't worth it, right? And while we're trying to save card advantage we should cut chrome mox too. /sarcasm

The HUGE difference between FoW and Gator is that with FoW you choose what to counterspell. With Gator, You don't choose if your opponent blocks.


No one said that Big Negs was taking control slots away from the deck.

It is obviously, as it is not a control slot.


And I never said you should play Big Negs and act like the game is over, especially without a force/chalice. However, putting combo on a clock is better than playing a 1/1 cloud of faerie.

Combo is not 25% of the field (maybe not even 10%). Look at the worlds (4/1 and 5/0) and tell me against which decks you would be happy to play negator. Please make this effort for me. I'll do the same.



Which is fine, but as a 4 of you'll run the risk of having it stuck in your hand because they don't have a creature, and if you were to play it you'd have to blow up one of your guys.

I recall that you were talking about Shriekmaw. As I said before, you usually don't need more than 1 or 2 creatures into play, so that a shriekmaw is quite useless in the case you describe. Do also the job to find the decks against which you don't want to find Shriekmaw.

Edit : actually for the counting it will be easier with the tourney breakdown :
Threshold: 76
Goblins: 34
Cephalid Breakfast: 26
Landstill: 24
Dredge: 24
PT Junk: 16
Charbelcher: 15
Survival: 14
Stax: 14
Dragon Stompy: 11
Affinity: 11
38-43 Lands: 9
White-Blue-Black: 8
Aggro Loam: 7
Enchantress: 7
Solidarity: 6
Black-White: 6
3Deuce: 6
Counter Goyf: 5
Black-Blue-Green: 5
Slivers / Meathooks: 3
Black Splash Green: 3
Aluren: 3
Monoblack Aggro: 2
Mono-Blue Control: 2
The Perfect Storm: 2
Iggy Pop: 2
Rifter: 2
White Weenie: 1
Life: 1
StifleNaught: 1
Sea Stompy: 1
Stompy: 1
Other: 10

Maveric78f
12-18-2007, 04:33 AM
G = I want to play gator
S = I want to play shriekmaw
none = I don't want to play Gator neither Shriekmaw
SG = I want to play both (very rare, I admit they are complementary)
X/Y = I don't know if the solution X or Y is good (usually it's explained after)
??? = I don't know the deck

Threshold: 76 S
Goblins: 34 S
Cephalid Breakfast: 26 SG/S (depends on the build (Tarmo included?) and on the way your opponent plays the deck)
Landstill: 24 G/none (not even sure because of mishra's factory)
Dredge: 24 none (it's ichorid I guess)
PT Junk: 16 S
Charbelcher: 15 G
Survival: 14 S
Stax: 14 G/S/none (depends if it plays magus of the tabernacle and/or angel, as for landstill, if it finds a mishra's factory Gator is stuck, anyway usually these MUs are highly positive for the stompy deck)
Dragon Stompy: 11 S
Affinity: 11 none
38-43 Lands: 9 none (it's autoloss anyway)
White-Blue-Black: 8 ???
Aggro Loam: 7 S
Enchantress: 7 G
Solidarity: 6 G
Black-White: 6 none (I guess it's deadguy ale)
3Deuce: 6 I don't know (trini deck ?)
Counter Goyf: 5 S
Black-Blue-Green: 5 ???
Slivers / Meathooks: 3 S/none
Black Splash Green: 3 ???
Aluren: 3 S
Monoblack Aggro: 2 none
Mono-Blue Control: 2 G
The Perfect Storm: 2 G
Iggy Pop: 2 G
Rifter: 2 none
White Weenie: 1 S
Life: 1 S
StifleNaught: 1 G
Sea Stompy: 1 S
Stompy: 1 S

Total number of know decks : 332
S : 196-213
G : 35-64

VsTheWorld
12-18-2007, 09:31 AM
Here's my stupid idea for the day: Crypt Angel. 3/3 body, evasion, protection from StP, and Raise Dead on your Evoked Mulldrifter or your Bolted Sea Drake all in one. No idea what I'd replace, but it seems like one of those way out there ideas that might be worth testing.

Maveric78f
12-18-2007, 11:08 AM
Looks very nice. Be careful not to play too many 5CC creatures though.

Phantom
12-18-2007, 11:17 AM
Mav, I appreciate the effort you're putting in, but why are you comparing Negator to Shriekmaw??? They do not fill the same role. They do not cost the same, and they aren't competing for the same slot. This is like comparing Tarmogoyf to StP in a Thresh build.

Also, you are simplifying way too much. The only two matches I've gotten to test at all are white Thresh and Goblins and Negator was very good in both. The only decks where I really don't want him at all are decks with direct damage (where I board him out) which thanks to goyf are on the wane.

@Crypt Angel: Meh. He would have to take the place of Shriekmaw or Mulldrifter, ad I'm not sure he is better than either. Plus, if we want to run Force we need to keep the blue card count up.

Maveric78f
12-20-2007, 05:57 AM
Mav, I appreciate the effort you're putting in, but why are you comparing Negator to Shriekmaw??? They do not fill the same role. They do not cost the same, and they aren't competing for the same slot. This is like comparing Tarmogoyf to StP in a Thresh build.

I know they don't fit the same purpose. I was answering the "shriekmaw being useless against a lot of decks" by showing that it was 4/5 times less useless than Gator, according to my analysis of the MUs, which we don't aggree on.


Also, you are simplifying way too much. The only two matches I've gotten to test at all are white Thresh and Goblins and Negator was very good in both. The only decks where I really don't want him at all are decks with direct damage (where I board him out) which thanks to goyf are on the wane.

Against ThreshW, mongoose and tarmogoyf are very good against gator, and what about enforcer? Meddling mage is not bad neither. I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that Gator can be good. It's not "very bad" I admit, but it should be less than average valuable.

Against Gob, it's absolutely awful. Fanatic trades with 2 permanents, tarfire too and gempalm with X permanents.

Cait_Sith
12-20-2007, 10:14 AM
If you want some decent (evasive) bodies in black, at :2::b: you have Daggerclaw Imp (Don't know 3/1 flying, and the :2: makes it fairly easy to cast).

At :3::b: you have Demon Jester (you tend to get hellbent quickly, so a possible 4/3 flying isn't bad), Mana Skimmer (a little denial can go a long way), and Crazed Skirge (hasty).

Yes, black has almost no good options in that range when it comes to fliers.

If you go up to :2::b::b: then you can try out Horobi, Death's Wail or (probably a lot better) Mirri the Cursed.

Tao
12-23-2007, 10:16 AM
I've been playing with this concept a bit and came to this formula:

8 Evoke Creatures + 4+ Cycler (Cloud of Faeries; probably also Shoreline Ranger) + Oversold Cemetary = Happy Days

Phantom
01-09-2008, 11:47 AM
How does this look?

Mana: 26
4 CIty
4 Tomb
4 C. Mox
4 Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
2 Swamp

Creatures: 22
4 Drake
4 Serendib
4 Moroii
4 Mulldrifter
3 Shriekmaw
3 Pestermite

Other: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
2 Jitte
2 SoFi

Sideboard:
3 Chalice
3 Trinket Mage
3 Crypt
4 Plague
2 EE


The consistancy really hurt the deck, and now with the lack of true sligh/aggro chalice for 1 hasn't really done the work it should have. I've overloaded some extra mana and put in brainstorm along with only 4 equipment for better creatures. The only non-threat in the deck is pestermite and he at least flies and is only a 3 of.

I'll make one last attempt at arguing FOR Chalice. Here's the decks in the DTB forum and how good chalice is against them:


[DTW] Aggro Loam - Great
[DTB] UGr Threshold - Amazing
[DTB] Vial Goblins - Very good
[DTW] Burn - Amazing
[DTB] UGb Threshold -Amazing
[DTW] Belcher - Amazing
[DTW] Dragon Stompy - Crappy
[ATW] Landstill - Crappy
[ATW] Life from the Loam - Great
[DTW] Ichorid Combo - Great (I think)
[DTW] Armageddon Stax - Crappy
[DTW] T.E.S - Amazing
[DTB] UGw Threshold - Amazing
[ATW] The Rock - Depends
[DTW] Cephalid Breakfast - Great (I think)


I think my point is clear that Chalice is pretty damn strong against the best decks in the format and that unless you have a specific meta where it sucks (heavy control for example) it is still a massivly powerful tool.

One more point. Doesn't the combo matchup become terrible without it? All you have is FoW and a much slower clock than we use to (thanks to 2 SoFI, slow Evoke creatures, and no CoF). Turning game one into an auto loss (which I'm assuming it does) against 4 of the best decks in the game seems a bad strategy to me.

Other than that, wouldn't Ponder be a better choice with only 4 shuffle effects (since the likelihood of having a BS and Delta in your opening grip is down around 10%)? Lastly, I was super excited to try Moroii in this deck, but found him to be utter crap here. 4cc in two colors (which makes him hard to cast) for a +1/+0 Serendib that STILL can't kill a Goyf. I also think you've gone overboard with the evoke creatures as they will slow you down. 3 of each sounds better. Lastly, you may want to up your Jittes back to 3 since this build will do a lot of damage to itself.

Has anyone tried any recursion in a U/B build? I always wanted to get Stinkweed Imp into a black stompy deck, and Recurring Nightmare strikes my fancy for some reason. It's so devious with Evoke creatures and Pestermite.

zulander
01-09-2008, 12:12 PM
For me, until FS becomes much more consistent I won't pick the deck up anymore. I'm tired of having to mull 5-6 times in a 4 round tournament.