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TheLion
11-21-2007, 02:11 PM
Since I havent found a thread about the Deck Full English Breakfast, I just create one... :wink:

Here is my current deck:

// Lands (17)

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Forest
1 Taiga
2 Savannah


// Creatures (25)

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter

1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Morphling
1 Genesis

1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Plaxmanta

1 Blazing Archon
1 Thornscape Battlemage
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder


// Spells (18)
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm (MM)
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare


SB: 2 Ground Seal
SB: 1 Spore Frog
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Viridian Zealot


I think the basic idea is clear: Play Survival of the Fittest, play Volrath's Shapshifter, search Akroma, Angel of Wrath, discard it to search Phage the Untouchable, attack, place damage on the stack, discard Phage and win.

Special Cardchoices:

Creatures:


Thornscape Apprentice: Very flexible card and destroys the most annoying threads against this deck: Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle and Withered Wretch
Genesis: IMO essential against control. Recurrs all creatures.
Eternal Witness: When your survival gets destroyed, search it. Good creature on its own, of course, too.
MorphlingProtects your Shapeshifter, especially in your combo turn. Sometimes wins games on its own, when you hardcast him.
Harmonic Sliver: Against Pithing Needle mainly.
Blazing Archon: Against Aggro, usually wins against Affinity and those who can't remove him.
Plaxmanta/Cephalid Inkshrouder: Plaxmanta protects your Shapeshifter, while not covering the Phage in your graveyard. Inkshrouder lets you discard Phage, to make it unblockable and untargetable.
I think Inkshrouder should be cut, since it isn't that good. In response of discarding Phage, your opponent always can target the shapeshifter. If he can't, you don't need untargetability anyway.
Quirion Ranger: Better than I thought. It protects from Wasteland (especially during your combo attack, which is the reason I only run forests), makes nice tricks with Birds and allows to run only 17 lands.


Spells:

Spell Snare is a test, but quite ok, until now.
Ponder is a try to run it over Enlightened Tutor. I still dont know what is better. Ponder is a blue card for FoW and is still useful in the lategame, but Tutor ensures the Survival, which is really important in this deck.


Sideboard:

Ground Seal: Against Extirpate and Wretch...
Spore Frog: Combo with Genesis against Aggro without instant removal
Hierarch: Against Burn
Krosan Grip: Against Needle and Humility.
Meddling Mage: Against all other :-)


I think I will make place for 3 Xantid Swam in the SB, since the Landstill MU is not that good.

I have also tried Cabal Therapy, but then FoW is worse, because of less blue cards... So either go the counter way, or the discard way. I decided for FoW, since you need blue anyway.

Please leave your comments..

Benie Bederios
11-21-2007, 02:21 PM
Hi I don't know how viable this idea is, and how much better it is than Cephalid Breakfast.

Anyway the first question everybody is going to ask is: "Where is Tarmogoyf?"


Next to that here is a link to a version I have played some time ago. I think it is one of the most streamlined versions of the deck and there are certainly some ideas there.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1242

BB

nastynate
11-21-2007, 02:33 PM
There are a few cards you should strongly consider.

#1 Unearth: With unearth in your deck, you can pitch volrath's shapeshifter to survival, and put him directly into play with unearth. BG to activate survival and put the shapeshifter into play is a bargain. Worst case scenario, Unearth cycles.

#2 Psychatog: No other creature can stack your graveyard so efficiently, or bail you out when akroma and/or phage get buried under an avalanche of stifled and wasted lands, or burned out birds of paradise. You could run withered wretch for his added versatility of hitting opposing graveyards, but he's pretty mana-intensive.

#3 Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle: I know this eats up tons of deck space, but you'll have 8 ways to get the 12/12 online (shapshifter and stifle), and 4 SotF to tutor for it. This also gives you a solid back-up plan against graveyard hate.

I used to play Ninja Mask (FEB w/ illusionary mask) in vintage, so its cool to see someone trying to resurrect a similar concept.

TheLion
11-21-2007, 05:53 PM
@Tarmogoyf:
1) I'm not willing to pay 25-30 EUR (even more in $) for an inprint card. I'd rather trade/buy duals for this price. (which are actually cheaper).
2) This is a combo deck. I dont want to win via creature beatdown.
3) What would I want to cut? Utility creatures like Harmonic Sliver? No. Wall of Roots? No. Mana is very important for this deck.

@Unearth: I dont want to add a 4th(!) color. I could try it, but probably I would cut the Spell Snares for them... And in theory they look better for me and are blue cards for FoW.

@Psychatog: Yes, I think I will cut Inkshrouder for him!? Only problem again is the splash.

@Dreadnought: I had the idea, too... I saw a thread here (Survival ATW), where someone suggested a FEB list with 4 Stifle + 4 Dreadnought. It looks so much fun in theory, that my interest in FEB came back... but i never tried the dreadnought alternative yet.

Pinder
11-21-2007, 06:31 PM
@Unearth: I dont want to add a 4th(!) color. I could try it, but probably I would cut the Spell Snares for them... And in theory they look better for me and are blue cards for FoW.


I used to play FEB a lot back in the day, and I would strongly recommend Unearth. It helps get Shifters into play, and helps if they die. And like he said, it cycles if you don't need it, too.



@Psychatog: Yes, I think I will cut Inkshrouder for him!? Only problem again is the splash.


Yes on Psychatog, no on cutting Inkshrouder for it. Survivaling Inkshrouder->Phage the Untouchable is the way I won most of my games with that deck. Psychatog makes for an excellent discard outlet for Shifter though, and a stellar alternate wincon.



@Dreadnought: I had the idea, too... I saw a thread here (Survival ATW), where someone suggested a FEB list with 4 Stifle + 4 Dreadnought. It looks so much fun in theory, that my interest in FEB came back... but i never tried the dreadnought alternative yet.

You don't need 4 Dreadnought, just the 1. You have Survival to tutor it up. I used to use it to go straightup beatdown via Shifter before the erratta was lifted. Now that you can use Stifle it's that much better, and Stifle is a great card on it's own to fight against combo or randomly nab fetchlands and the like. You still only need the 1 nought though, IMO.

edit - as for what to cut, you could probably lose Morphling without too much trouble. You could also probably get rid of the Plaxmanta, too.

94teen
11-21-2007, 11:10 PM
I'm really new to this archetype, and so I may be completely off the mark with whatever I have to say. I've wanted to try a blue splash in typical survival for awhile now, and this seems like a cool way to do that. I'd been trying to use Vesuvan Shapeshifter, but Volrath's seems almost strictly better.

However, why do you need such a huge toolbox? Doesn't that make the average quality of the cards in this deck much smaller since you're going to draw random singletons that you can't even cast half the time? Wouldn't it be better to have a small toolbox in the maindeck and a small sideboard of toolbox cards?

I mean, survival gives you a powerful engine, but survival decks that are heavily dependent on their namesake aren't very good in the current metagame.

It seems like this could be much better if it played less like a combo deck and more combo-control. Less singletons and more solid disruption and creatures. Like Tarmogoyf, Thoughtseize, and Pernicious Deed.

Again, I could be completely off the mark, but that's what my first impression of this deck is. That said, it's really cool, and I think there are a few cards that merit serious discussion in the sideboard:

Angel of Despair
Kamigawa Dragons
Recurring Nightmare
etc.

Recurring Nightmare might add even more cool tricks to the deck, but I think then this goes into trying to do too many cool things and becomes a casual deck.

TheLion
11-22-2007, 04:09 AM
Ok, I think I really should try Unearth, if you all suggest it... That would mean I must splash Black... and probably cut White.

For Inkshrouder: I never really missed it yet. The time you discard Phage with it, while it is on the stack, your opponent still could throw his swords at the shapeshifter...
Plaxmanta is still in testing, but it sounds good in theory... Morphling is of course good on it's own, and won me a few games on its own. Usually he takes the role of Plaxmanta/Inkshrouder.

Yes, I think 4 Dreadnoughts are not needed, because you can survival it. Maybe 1-2. And 3 Stifle.

Kamigawa Dragons? Not really. Maybe Reya Dawnbringer, but she would only be a gimmick...

@94teen: The toolbox isnt that huge. You need some solutions against Artifacts/Enchantments. Squee is too good with Survival, Genesis make Card Advantage against Control. Battlemage is good.
Maybe I could cut 2 of {Morphling/Inkshrouder/Plaxmanta/Archon}
The toolbox in RG or BG Survival Decks are bigger afaik.

I dont want to run deed, because it destroys to much of on your side: Birds, Walls, Survival, Ranger.

Recurring Nightmare is similar to Reya, more a gimmick, but fun... Angel of Despair might be good (with Shapeshifter), but Thornscape Battlemage removes most threads, too and is hardcastable.

94teen
11-22-2007, 11:12 AM
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Morphling
1 Genesis

1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Plaxmanta

1 Blazing Archon
1 Thornscape Battlemage
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder


That's 13 creatures, at least 5 of which can't be hardcast. That's over 1/5 of your deck, which means that you're going to get a lot of dead draws until you find Survival. I believe that you need at least one of the following:

A smaller toolbox that allows for you to play control until you find survival

OR

More ways to find survival.

Personally, I would try for UGB build. This gives you Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, and the like in addition to FoW for disruption.

I'd also add Pernicious Deed, and replace BoP and Wall of Roots with something like Sakura-Tribe Elder. Wall of roots is fine, but by the time you play a Deed, it will have served it's purpose and (hopefully) you'll have stabilized enough not to need it.

Stuff for finding survival: I suggest Sensei's Divining Top since that'll let you run counterbalance. Maybe Ponder will help, or Sylvan Library, but something needs to be there, because the deck basically just sits and does nothing until it finds it's engine.

Most survival decks now are aggro-control decks that abuse survival for the lategame advantage. I think this needs to be similar. Maybe drop to 2 Shapeshifters so that you can play things like Deed and Tarmogoyf, but this can't play like a combo deck. It's just not fast enough OR resilient enough to compete with other pure combo decks.

TheLion
11-22-2007, 12:10 PM
I disagree here. You dont want to play that deck as aggro control deck as maybe other GBW Lists. At least I dont want to.
I'd never cut BoP. It's too good, and even better with Quirion Ranger. Wall of Roots is also better than Sakura Tribe Elder, since it makes 2 mana a turn (1 in yours, 1 in your opponents) and is a better blocker.

I'd also dont want to drop 2 Shapshifters... It's my win condition, and often 1 gets removed via FoW. In most other discussions I read, that 4 is the optimal number.

A smaller toolbox also means less creatures, which is bad for survival decks. I often read, that 23-25 is a good number für Survival decks.
However, I aggree, that are maybe too many uncastable creatures. But with 4 Shapeshifters, they get often enough "into play".

As for tutors, I currently test, if 3-4 Ponders are enough.

nastynate
11-22-2007, 12:19 PM
I'd also add Pernicious Deed, and replace BoP...

BoP is too good in this Archtype. Not only does it help to cast some of the more challenging casting cost cards (like volrath's shapeshifter), but it pitches to give shapeshifter flying, which you can follow up by pitching Phage for the win.

Here's what I would begin testing with.

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Psychatog
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Phage, the Untouchable

Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle

Engine
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Unearth

Land
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest

I know people are arguing against 4 dreadnoughts, but unless you run the full set, you have no chance of pulling off the stifle-nought combo without SotF in play. The whole point of running the stifle-nought package is to have a back-up plan to the Survival engine, or the ability to hard-cast a shapeshifter and pitch a dreadnought.

In the old vintage decks we ran 4 illusionary mask and 4 dreadnought in our lists specifically so we had an alternative path to victory besides SotF. This is basically the same idea.

Your tool box of answers will obviously be in the side-board.

Good luck and happy testing. :smile:

ReAnimated
11-22-2007, 01:22 PM
Quick question, why is this deck named Full English Breakfast?

94teen
11-22-2007, 01:33 PM
I'm not saying to make the deck aggro-control. It's clearly not an aggro control deck. I'm saying to make it combo-control. This can't compete as is because it has no answers. The only methods you have of interacting with your opponent are seven counterspells and creatures.

Threshold has more counterspells and better creatures. Combo just runs you over. Aggro just runs you over. You need something to interact with your opponent.

Discard, Engineered Explosives, Counterspells, something. This isn't fast enough to compete as is. I don't know how to make it faster, but you need something. You can pull all kinds of tricks with Survival and Genesis and Volrath's Stronghold and the like in the lategame, which makes me want to make this more controlling by adding discard elements and sweepers and removing the elements that try to make this fast to make room for the more controlling elements.

vigilante
11-22-2007, 04:49 PM
Quick question, why is this deck named Full English Breakfast?

From an old Extended article by Peter Jahn:


For reasons no longer relevant, decks in that era were named after breakfast cereals. Fruity Pebbles, Cocoa Pebbles, Life, Wheaties and, of course, Trix, are the most famous. Paul Barclay took on that trend with "Full English Breakfast," so named "because it's full of fat and much nicer than boring old cereal."

TheLion
11-23-2007, 03:41 AM
Combo control is a good description for this archetype. Sure it is slower than other combo decks (Belcher, Ichorid). But both are straight combos without Forces. I heard Solidarity wins not earlier than turn 4. And it is very good deck, too. This here wins by turn 4 and plays Forces, too.
I dont want to control the game, to win in the lategame. I just want to Force my Survival on the table and win 1-2 turns later. Against aggro i have enough stallers and chumpblockers.
Why run Explosives or Deed? It only kills my Birds, Walls, Rangers and Survivals. Running counterspells and discard is fine, though. But there isn't that much place, if I want to run at least 23-25 creatures (recommended number by most people) and at least 15-17 blue cards to support FoW.

94teen
11-23-2007, 10:57 AM
But there's a reason solidarity isn't commonly played anymore. Fast combo is better right now.

I like this idea, and want this to work. The problem I see is that you can't deal with fast combo beyond praying for a counterspell. The problem is that, against thresh, you have no way to deal with early 'Goyfs backed by counterspells. YOu have nothing against early countertop, or quick beaters backed by burn.

That said, Nastynates build is a much better place to start, as it has a chance of keeping up with other decks due to the amount of disruption it runs. The toolbox is unnecessarily large in a lot of builds, and this makes the overall power of the deck much less than it could be. You cannot rely on getting an early survival of the fittest, because it's not going to happen all the time. You need back up plans.

Combo control is where this deck needs to be, and it isn't unless you run answers. Thoughtseize, Deed, Explosives, StP, CounterTop, something. I don't know what fits, but you need something.

If other survival builds can play Deed and Explosives, I think this can too, because it answers many problems you have. Countertop, early rushes, all of that. I think it's worth considering that Sakura-Tribe Elder is also a creature, and also pitches to survival, but lets you play Deed and Explosives. Wall of Blossoms gives you a Wall, and helps smooth your mana, but you don't care if it dies to explosives or deed.

I don't know specifically what this deck needs, but I know it needs some kind of mechanism of finding survival, and some kind of mechanism of controlling the game.

I can easily envision the following changes to your original list:

-8 accelerators
-7 or so singleton creatures
-1 Survival
-2 Shapeshifters

+ Sweepers
+ Discard
+ Top
+ Counterbalance
+ Witness
+ Academy Ruins
+ Some lands/Sakura-Tribe Elder etc.

You don't need very much land to combo off if you spread the cost over a few turns. I don't see this deck going "oops I win." I see it stabilizing the game, forcing down a survival, forcing down a shapeshifter, and then just winning.

Maybe that's where the key difference is. I don't want this to win on turn 4 or 5 unless you get supremely lucky. I see you wrathing the board away on turn three, and forcing a survival on turn 4 or 5, then proceeding to win on turn 6 or 7.

TheLion
11-23-2007, 01:34 PM
I dont see, why you want to clear the board first, and than win 2 turns later, if you could just win instead of clearing the board.
Against some decks it might be good, so deed or explosives might be a SB option.

Academy Ruins?? Why? You want to reduce this deck by Survival? Never... Its the most important card. Then you want to reduce by 17 (!!!) creatures... (8 accelerators, 7 creatures, 2 shifters) and only add Witness and 4 Tribe Elder... which ends up in ~13 creatures. This is so bad imo...
You must play at least 15-17 blue cards, to support FoW. So if you add black discard, Deed and Explosives, and remove 2 Shifters, it's probably bad.
Maybe it is a plan to first control the game and then win... but I prefer the "oops I win" in turn 4.
4 Discard spells might be a good option. I'd prefer Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseize here.
Counterbalance is double UU, which is rarely supported.

What do you think of adding more counterspells (Delay, Mana Leak), instead of Discard? You would focus on 2 colors mainly (have less mana problems, less problems against nonbasic hate), and have more blue cards for FoW.
And its disruption as well, just on another way.
I tested Daze, but it's too bad, without mana denial.

Wall of Roots: You play it, it directly makes G, and in your opponents turn again. It blocks more often.
Tribe Elder: It blocks once and makes only G one turn after you dropped it.
So I prefer the Wall.
Wall of Blossoms is not needed usually, since you make Card Advantage via Squee.

Tacosnape
11-23-2007, 03:35 PM
Rumor has it that the Cephalids eat a lot better than the English.

Why exactly would you play this over Cephalid Breakfast, out of curiosity?

TheLion
11-23-2007, 03:37 PM
dont know... i never playes Cephalid Breakfast... since it is too new...
This one is more fun for me... fast combo is too boring, since there is too few interaction, and it's alway the same... Same is true for Belcher.

94teen
11-23-2007, 06:27 PM
Just becaus it's 'not fun' doesn't mean it's not bettr than this. If you want this to compete, you need disruption, that's the main point I'm trying to get across.

This can't be a pure combo deck. You need to be a control or aggro deck first, and a combo deck second.

Academy Ruins is there to recur Engineered Explosives, because that controls what you wrath away. You can set it to one when you don't have BoP or 2 when you don't have wall of roots, or zero to clear the board of tokens and all that nice stuff.

Counterspells would be amazing. Maybe Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top since you run a variety of cc's. Maybe Mana Leak or Force Spike, maybe even stifle.

I don't suggest lowering the density of the creatures by that much, but changing the type of creatures. I also suggest wall of blossoms, and any number of Eternal Witnesses to recur your Deeds, explosives, counterspells, and survivals.

Survival can be lowered to a number less than four if this is a control deck. Control deck first, combo deck second is what makes this change allowable. By the time you have gotten the game under control, you'll have found a survival by digging with something else. Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, Ponder, anything. I don't recommend going lower than 3, but I can definitely see running 3 instead of four.

Squee only generates CA if you have a survival, which you won't always. The deck needs to be able to survive without a Survival of the Fittest in play. This is the biggest problem with all Survival decks, is that they are too reliant on the namesake.

This deck can't 'just win.' You need to establish control first, because all other decks in the format right now either outrace you (combo, aggro control, aggro) or are just better at the long game (landstill). You need to basically play midrange, and be flexible enough to control non-control decks, and race control decks.

If you expect a metagame of slow decks, you need to play pure combo and play enough disruption to get a survival down. In a metagame of aggro, aggro control, and combo, you need to play control, and slow them down and then win when the opportunity presents itself.

Tribe Elder is a way to accelerate your mana, shuffle your deck, thin your deck, AND avoids Deed and Explosives, at least one of which this deck needs.

Wall of Blossoms will accomplish essentially the same thing, helping smooth your land drops and find necessary control and combo elements.

Sensei's Divining Top or Sylvan Library will also allow you to find needed control and combo pieces while also allowing you to play control pieces like Counterbalance.

The deck you posted runs way too many singletons, and is designed to be a pure combo deck. It won't work like that in the current metagame. I don't mean to be antagonizing or inflammatory, but I do mean to be blunt. Traditional Full English Breakfast, while cool, is not competitive in the current metagame. It needs to add control elements to protect the combo, and to live long enough to combo off.

nastynate
11-23-2007, 08:18 PM
I've done a little experimenting, and in play FEB feels like the bastard child of Threshold and Survival, but less consistent and more vulnerable to disruption than either of them. It falls victim to numerous side-board and main deck answers people already pack for the Thresh and Survival match-ups. On occasion I was able to pull off turn 3-4 kills, but otherwise I was dragged into the mid-game and the whole thing fell apart.

It was almost impossible to adequately protect my shapeshifters or dreadnoughts from swords to plowshares, bolts, wastelands, and graveyard hate. Survival was a frequent target of krosan grips and pithing needles, and I simply did not have enough protection to consistently pull off a Phage kill or a dreadnought kill (and I was running 4 dreadnoughts!).

In hindsight, I'd recommend something closer to the following build.

Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf

I know, I know...goyfs, but they're just too good not to run.

Engine
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

This engine is much less vulnerable than the survival + shapeshifter engine. The 7 cantrips dig quickly and efficiently, and the enlightened tutors have been tutoring up dreadnoughts quick enough for turn 2 dreadnought + stifle. Enlightened tutor is also fantastic for assembling the counter-top engine allowing you to play control when necessary.

Disruption
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Trickbind

Now this is more like it! This is the kind of disruption that actually makes the 2-card combo feasible. Force of Will, Daze, and Counterbalance can protect your dreadnought or goyf long enough to take it to the house. The stifles and trickbinds become additional disruption once you have deadnought in play.

Mana
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

This mana-base has been excellent, and the addition of wasteland has been golden. Since I only main deck 4 white cards and 4 green cards, I can run fewer dual-lands and basics of each color.

Side-Board
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

I would play the swords to plowshares in the MD if I could fit them, but I can't squeeze them in without losing something else I'd rather have more. The remainder of the board is basically answers to some of the more common threats, and quite conveniently 100% tutor-able with enlightened tutor.

The greatest strength of this build is the ability to play either very aggressively (lay down a turn 2 dreadnought, protect it, and ride it to victory), or simply play like a control deck (utilizing mana denial and counters to shut down faster decks, and win at your leisure).

@ TheLion: Sorry if it feels like I've been butchering your thread. I gave FEB a shot, and it stunk...badly. If you've got no interest in taking the deck in the direction I have, just say the word, and I'll let it drop.

Lego
11-23-2007, 08:36 PM
Here's the old thread for the deck:

Ninja Gaiden (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1242)

My old list, for reference, is this (I've updated a couple of the card choices):

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Unearth

4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Psychatog
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
3 Lim-Dul's Vault

3 Birds of Paradise
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Forest

Unearth- Huge. Play it. Seriously.

Lim-Dul's Vault- It's your backup plan when you can't find Survival.

Thoughtseize + Cabal Therapy + Force of Will- 12 Disruption spells are sweet. Just cuz.

I'd probably make room for Counter/Top if I were going to play this deck in the current format. And then I'd ask why you're not playing Cephalid Breakfast.

Skub
11-28-2007, 06:38 AM
Hya everyone!

It nices to say that FEB is still alive and kicking. The original version of FEB used Tradewind Riders for control. The current Legacy format is fast compared to seven years ago. So therefore Tradewind Rider seems to slow. But pls give your experiences about it.

Rough example deck

Creatures (25)

4 x Birds of Paradise
3 x Wall of Roots
2 x Quirion Ranger
2 x Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 x Phage, the Untouchable
1 x Morphling
1 x Genesis
2 x Eternal Witness
1 x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 x Tradewind Rider
1 x Gilded Drake
1 x Uktabi Orangutan
1 x Anger
1 x Squee, Goblin Nabob

Spells (15)

4 x Survival of the Fittest
4 x Force of will
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Enlighted Tutor

Land (21)

4 x Tropical Island
3 x Savannah
2 x Taiga
3 x Forest
3 x Island
2 x Windswept heath
2 x Wooded Foothills
2 x Flooded Strand

Sideboard

1 x Worship
1 x Absolute Law
2 x Propaganda (against weenie rush)
1 x Chill (against red)
1 x Null rod
2 x Bottle Gnomes
3 x Krosan Grip (against SoF hate)
1 x Arcane Laboratory
3 x Swords to plowshares

Explanation:

2-3 Eternal Witness seems almost to be a must nowadays.
2 Volrath's Shapeshifters is not much, less reliant on combo ?

Thanx for your input!

TheLion
08-05-2008, 07:02 AM
This deck had some recent success (see www.deckcheck.net), with the inclusion of Stiflenought. Dreadnought and Shapeshifter are of course synergistic, too.

Here's my current decklist.

Lands (19):

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Island

Creatures (20):

Mana (6):
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger

Utility (6):
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Eternal Witness
1 Psychatog
1 Blazing Archon

Win (8):
1 Phage, the Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Volrath's Shapeshifter

Spells (21):

4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm


SB (15):
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Meddling Mage
2 Ground Seal
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Spore Frog
1 Trygon Predator

I think the Manabase is quite solid. Quirion Ranger protects against Wasteland, and offers great moves with Birds (3 mana, if you don't have a land in hand).
5 basic lands help to survive against Mooneffects.

Most cards are obvious.
Genesis is often on the edge to go in the SB, but it's too good in the mid and late game.
Psychatog is the only card, which i can only cast with the help of Birds, but i don't want to add another dual only for him.
Rarely he also just lies on top of my graveyard, and does its work via Shapeshifter, though he will then remove himself.

Blazing Archon is amazing. He sometimes wins games alone because they can't handle it, or else buys 1-2 turns.

I am currently running only 3 Dreadnoughts, because they can be searched with tutor and survival.
But I still don't know if this decision is correct.

SB: Shusher is against Landstill, Ground Seal is againts Extirpate, Tradewind Rider mainly against lands like Maze of Ith.
Trygon Predator against Enchantress and Staxx. Krosan Grips against Needles, LotV and others. Mages against random stuff and combo.

What do you think (not in particular about my decklist, but more generel about the deck type)?

Spectör
08-05-2008, 07:12 AM
Nice necro.

If you already play Dreadnoughts couldn't you also cut Akroma and Phage for Flowstone Hellion? That would save you 1 slot and would make the deck less random.

Also I think this deck should play black instead of white, because it gives you tutorable creature removal and discard which I think is very important.

BreathWeapon
08-05-2008, 08:32 AM
God, I hate to be "that guy," but where's Tarmogoyf? I'd look into Wall of Roots too, and I don't see Daze and Survival of the Fittest meshing, but if it works, so be it.

TheLion
08-05-2008, 08:46 AM
I thought about Flowstone Hellion instead of Phage/Akroma, too, but didnt tested it until now. Phage wins the game, Flowstone/Dreadnought "only" deals max. 23 damage.
White is only there for Enl. Tutor, Harmonic Sliver and Mages. Black's pendants would be Shriekmaw and Cabal Therapy.
It's arguable which is better... Mage is a creature (for survival) and is blue (for FoW).
I seldom missed Shriekmaw, and Enl. Tutor is very important too. And in place of discard, i rather play counters.


Tarmogoyf isn't in, because the 3 lists, which made Top8 recently, didn't play him neither. And if i played him, i would probably have to cut, the StifleNought combo. I'd rather play Nought then... just because of his synergy with Shapeshifter.

Wall of Roots isn't in neither, because Stifle/Naught took it's place.

With Daze: I still dont know what to think about it, because I have no mana denial... but bringing Survival on the table turn 2 is very important...
I was thinking about replacing them with 2-3 counterspells... but dont really know...
At least the 3 Top8 Decklists played Daze too.

BreathWeapon
08-05-2008, 10:23 AM
Not using Tarmogoyf because some one else didn't use Tarmogoyf is about the worse reasoning ever, there's no point in FEB putting all of its eggs in one basket when Tarmogoyf is an easily included secondary threat.

kicks_422
08-05-2008, 10:37 AM
It also draws removal away from your combo, which is creature-based.

TheLion
08-05-2008, 11:27 AM
Not using Tarmogoyf because some one else didn't use Tarmogoyf is about the worse reasoning ever, there's no point in FEB putting all of its eggs in one basket when Tarmogoyf is an easily included secondary threat.

What do you mean with the basket... (sorry, I'm no native english speaker).

The stiflenought is the secondary threat, which has greater synergy than goyf imo.

I dont want to discuss my decklist here... but the decktype in general.

Maybe you could provide a own decklist, or discuss why goyf > stiflenought or viceversa.

Captain_Morgan
08-05-2008, 11:56 AM
What do you mean with the basket... (sorry, I'm no native english speaker).

The stiflenought is the secondary threat, which has greater synergy than goyf imo.

I dont want to discuss my decklist here... but the decktype in general.

Maybe you could provide a own decklist, or discuss why goyf > stiflenought or viceversa.

It's a saying/metaphorism thing that means he doesn't want to chance something by having only one strategy to win.

Eggs (chances) in one basket (the strat).

Eddie
08-05-2008, 03:55 PM
FEB is doing great over here in Belgium and the Netherlands. I think only 2 people are playing the deck but we are both putting up great results (with a slightly different version). I've played FEB in the last 2 tournaments. Won a (small) tournament, T8 in the other.

I always believed the deck has a lot of potential. Most people think it's easy to hate and shouldn't be played with all the Krosan Grips, Tormod's crypts, Extirpates and other stuff around. But the deck is pretty good dodging the hate.


Not using Tarmogoyf because some one else didn't use Tarmogoyf is about the worse reasoning ever, there's no point in FEB putting all of its eggs in one basket when Tarmogoyf is an easily included secondary threat.

I did use Tarmogoyf before I switched to Dreadnought. I had ponders instead of the stifles. It works, but not as good as dreadnought. The problem is FEB doesn't have any removal, so playing your own tarmogoyfs in a field full of others makes little sense. Your backup plan should work against other decks playing goyfs and dreadnoughts do just that. It might sound stupid but in this deck, goyf is little more than a good wall.

I was very skeptic too and didn't want to cut the goyfs, but testing shows dreadnoughts are a lot better. You can't play both cause there just isn't room in the deck. But please test this out, cause your mileage may vary.


God, I hate to be "that guy," but where's Tarmogoyf? I'd look into Wall of Roots too, and I don't see Daze and Survival of the Fittest meshing, but if it works, so be it.

You are right about Wall of Roots. It's great to block early critters like lackey or goyf and you get a huge amount of mana out of it. It buys you a lot of time to find your combo pieces.

Daze isn't bad, but you only want 1 in your opening hand. Topdecking Daze after turn 3-4 is a dead draw. I'm only playing two at the moment. 3 Is probably the best number but I'm not sure what to cut. 2 works to surprise opponents enough so they start playing around possible future dazes.


I think the Manabase is quite solid. Quirion Ranger protects against Wasteland, and offers great moves with Birds (3 mana, if you don't have a land in hand).
5 basic lands help to survive against Mooneffects.

I play a similar manabase but use a small black splash for psychatog and dimir infiltrator main + extirpates in the side. White isn't bad I guess, but I like the black splash. Most FEB decks use more black cards than I do, but I don't want to stress the manabase. My current manabase let's me play back to basics in the side which is a bomb against half the field.

BreathWeapon
08-05-2008, 10:26 PM
You don't need removal to win Tarmogoyf vs Tarmogoyf stalemates because Survival of the Fittest lets you either out number or out maneuver your opponent's army.

It's not an either or proposition, in most of the Dreadnought.dec I've built, Tarmogoyf was either a must counter or a must remove threat that let Stifle and Dreadnought thru'. Even if all your Tarmogoyf does is stare at your opponent's Tarmogoyf, he's still a removal spell for the best creature in the game and one hell of a wall vs aggro.

You just have to cut down on utility critters to fit him in.

Pulp_Fiction
08-06-2008, 12:19 AM
This is a deck I have always been interested in but never built up. Something I was wondering about, could you run like 3 Goyf and take out some stuff like Phage or Blazing Archon. I realize this is the combo but I am wondering if it would be better to just run Dreadnoughts and have your Shapeshifters be 12/12 tramplers and win in 2 turns as opposed to just discarding Phage or something. I think all of the Phage stuff is cool as hell but maybe it is more in the danger of cool things zone as opposed to being super effective. Again I don't have experience with the deck but this would seem to be a better plan, just make it Survival with Stiflenought and Shapeshifter and add in like 1 cute trick with Shapeshifter instead of 3-5.

Jak
08-06-2008, 12:31 AM
This is a deck I have always been interested in but never built up. Something I was wondering about, could you run like 3 Goyf and take out some stuff like Phage or Blazing Archon. I realize this is the combo but I am wondering if it would be better to just run Dreadnoughts and have your Shapeshifters be 12/12 tramplers and win in 2 turns as opposed to just discarding Phage or something. I think all of the Phage stuff is cool as hell but maybe it is more in the danger of cool things zone as opposed to being super effective. Again I don't have experience with the deck but this would seem to be a better plan, just make it Survival with Stiflenought and Shapeshifter and add in like 1 cute trick with Shapeshifter instead of 3-5.

Why would you play this deck over Dreadstill if you want to win like that? The point of the deck is to win in one swing.

BreathWeapon
08-06-2008, 12:54 AM
Why would you play this deck over Dreadstill if you want to win like that? The point of the deck is to win in one swing.

Because Survival of the Fittest is huge, Vengeur Mask never bothered with the combo-kill, so it's by no means necessary. It's not even splashing red for Anger, so really what's the point of the combo-kill? If you cut the combo-kill, you just get to play with less shitty cards.

All Survival has to do is either set up Volrath's Shapeshifter and Phyrexian Dreadnought or pump out Tarmogoyfs.

Eddie
08-06-2008, 02:21 AM
Because Survival of the Fittest is huge, Vengeur Mask never bothered with the combo-kill, so it's by no means necessary. It's not even splashing red for Anger, so really what's the point of the combo-kill? If you cut the combo-kill, you just get to play with less shitty cards.

All Survival has to do is either set up Volrath's Shapeshifter and Phyrexian Dreadnought or pump out Tarmogoyfs.

Vengeur never bothered with the combo kill simply because it had masks which made phage rather clunky. Trust me, if I could play masks in this deck I'd cut the phage and never look back. But right now, the combo kill is great. No red splash for anger cause we don't want to weaken the manabase and Akroma has haste and does everything you need. I'm not sure why people would cut the combo kill in a field full of creature removal.

Look, dreadnoughts and tarmogoyfs are great, but they are all vulnerable to smother, threads, explosives and stuff like that. With the combo kill you simply don't need to worry about that too much.


You don't need removal to win Tarmogoyf vs Tarmogoyf stalemates because Survival of the Fittest lets you either out number or out maneuver your opponent's army.

But that's the whole point isn't it. With survival you don't need goyf anymore cause you can win with the combo. You'd only need goyf is you can't use/find survival which means you can't search for multiple goyfs.


Even if all your Tarmogoyf does is stare at your opponent's Tarmogoyf, he's still a removal spell for the best creature in the game and one hell of a wall vs aggro.

So is Wall of Roots, and you get a lot of survival mana out of that one.

This is the deck I'm currently playing. Let's try and figure out what can go, and what can stay:

3 Forest
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta

4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Psychatog
1 Eternal Witness
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Daze
2 Ponder

I'm guessing
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Dimir Infiltrator
-2 Ponder/Daze
+4 Tarmogoyf ?

I will test some more with goyfs added to the deck and I'll let you all know.

TheLion
08-06-2008, 04:12 AM
I dont really get the point of Dimir Infiltrator, though he was played in all 3 recently Top8ed decklists... posted on deckcheck.net
Akroma is usually enough as pseudo unblockable creature... I mean even 1 point trample damage going over is enough for phage to trigger.

Or do you play him for transmute for Survival? Seems slow though.

I'd never cut Eternal Witness... Rather 1 Shapeshifter.

Do B2B really work in your SB, with only 5 basic lands?

Are 18 lands enough for you? I play 19 and often wants to add one more.

It's always hard to find the correct relation between lands and mana creatures... opinions on that?

Eddie
08-06-2008, 04:54 AM
I dont really get the point of Dimir Infiltrator, though he was played in all 3 recently Top8ed decklists... posted on deckcheck.net
Akroma is usually enough as pseudo unblockable creature... I mean even 1 point trample damage going over is enough for phage to trigger.

Or do you play him for transmute for Survival? Seems slow though.

I've transmuted the infiltrator a couple of times. Yes, it's 3 mana and sorcery speed. But sometimes you need to get that survival. It's a good topdeck in the mid to lategame. Also sometimes Akroma just doesn't get through (very rare, but still it happens sometimes). Unblockable is a great bonus together with the transmute. Infiltrator is great with and without survival for those 2 different reasons.

You play white and 2 enlightened tutors, so you have no need for the infiltrator.

The infiltrator is probably the first card I'd cut if I need to make room for something else.


I'd never cut Eternal Witness... Rather 1 Shapeshifter.

I haven't used the witness much lately. It's a great card but you can play without it. I was just looking to make room for goyfs. Might be bad to remove the witness. I'd never play less than 4 shapeshifters. They are the core to the deck, sometimes more than survival itself. I've won a lot of games by dropping an early shapeshifter with a good beater in hand and no survival in sight. Either way, I don't want to drop the blue creature count because Force of Will might get bad.


Do B2B really work in your SB, with only 5 basic lands?

It's a great sideboard card. I have 8 mana creatures, including one that can return lands to my hand to play them again. Never locked myself out of mana with Back to Basics.


Are 18 lands enough for you? I play 19 and often wants to add one more.

It's always hard to find the correct relation between lands and mana creatures... opinions on that?

I believe 18 is enough if you play lots of mana creatures. You want to keep the creature count as high as possible. My land + mana creature count is 26, while yours is 25. And I still have 2 ponders to search for lands.

It's not that I'm never manascrewed now and then, but every deck can have manascrew. In both tournaments floods where more frequent so I believe the current number is ok. You don't need more than 3 lands in play anyway. If you feel you should play more land, maybe you can try to swap one fetch for a regular land.

TheLion
08-06-2008, 05:19 AM
hm, i think i will try wall of roots again...
if you were flooded too often, why not lessen your mana count to 25 too?

In my testing against Dragon Stompy there was 1 situation where sakura-tribe elder would probably have won me the game:
they had chalice@1 and Blood Moon. I had 1-2 Forests, but only 1 Island... My eventually got jitted or i had none... so I could not cast Shapeshifter
Do you think he's worth it, as a 1-off maybe?

I think i will test B2B :-D. Looks interesting with mana creatures and Ranger...

Eddie
08-07-2008, 05:26 AM
In my testing against Dragon Stompy there was 1 situation where sakura-tribe elder would probably have won me the game:
they had chalice@1 and Blood Moon. I had 1-2 Forests, but only 1 Island... My eventually got jitted or i had none... so I could not cast Shapeshifter
Do you think he's worth it, as a 1-off maybe?

Depends on the metagame I guess. Also, if you are going to see a lot of Ichorid, then tribe elder is better than Wall of Roots.


hm, i think i will try wall of roots again...
if you were flooded too often, why not lessen your mana count to 25 too?

Might be worth to try out. I'll try:
-1 Infiltrator
-1 Witness
-1 Wall of Roots

+3 Goyf

And maybe:
-2 ponder
+1 Goyf
+1 Daze

The manabase used to work without ponder, so it should still be ok.

georgjorge
08-07-2008, 05:39 AM
Look, dreadnoughts and tarmogoyfs are great, but they are all vulnerable to smother, threads, explosives and stuff like that. With the combo kill you simply don't need to worry about that too much.

The Phage kill isn't vulnerable to those things because it can Survival up an Inkshrouder (and Psychatog to handle the graveyard order)...but if you Surival into Nought + Hellion instead of Phage + Akroma, you can do just the same thing, the only difference being that you now have an alternative route to victory with the Noughts alone, while otherwise your combo creatures would just sit in your hand doing nothing. So playing Nought still gives you the opportunity for a combo kill while increasing your options if you don't have Survival.

Also, some decks still can't deal with Nought well, and those are fast decks that Survival usually has problems with: UGr Thresh, Faerie and Dragon Stompy, Goyf Sligh, Burn, Goblins etc.

TheLion
08-07-2008, 06:23 AM
@Eddie: Looking at your deck in your sig, I'm wondering, how the following have been workig for you:

Waterfront Bouncer
Plaxmanta

Mana Maze (seems only to make your Shapeshifters uncounterable??)
Divert

lol... STE is even good against Ichorid. I never thought of it.

Eddie
08-07-2008, 07:30 AM
The Phage kill isn't vulnerable to those things because it can Survival up an Inkshrouder (and Psychatog to handle the graveyard order)...but if you Surival into Nought + Hellion instead of Phage + Akroma, you can do just the same thing, the only difference being that you now have an alternative route to victory with the Noughts alone, while otherwise your combo creatures would just sit in your hand doing nothing. So playing Nought still gives you the opportunity for a combo kill while increasing your options if you don't have Survival.

You can't do the same thing. If you combo with dreadnought, your shapeshifter kan still be smothered or gripped. The backup with dreadnought / stifle / shapeshifter is great but I wouldn't turn my backup and main win condition in the same thing.


Looking at your deck in your sig, I'm wondering, how the following have been workig for you:

Waterfront Bouncer
Plaxmanta

They aren't that bad. Problem is I simply didn't need them most of the time so I thought it would be better to replace them with ponders so I could get the stuff I needed and win faster. So instead of protecting and stalling I try to go faster or I can replenish after a failed attempt.


Mana Maze (seems only to make your Shapeshifters uncounterable??)
Divert

It makes everything uncounterable if you don't pass priority after your spell and play a brainstorm. It's also a great card against combo and burn. Best thing is actually that most people don't know how to play with Mana Maze on the table and they make mistakes. I've had some fun casting Squee before combo against red thresh. I don't play it anymore, but still like the card.

Divert works great against black disruption decks which is an unfavourable matchup. Divert a thoughtseize, hymn, sinkhole, smother and other similar stuff.

TheLion
08-07-2008, 08:29 AM
They aren't that bad. Problem is I simply didn't need them most of the time so I thought it would be better to replace them with ponders so I could get the stuff I needed and win faster. So instead of protecting and stalling I try to go faster or I can replenish after a failed attempt.


Probably the right decision. I played Tradewind Rider once, but he often not needed.



It makes everything uncounterable if you don't pass priority after your spell and play a brainstorm. It's also a great card against combo and burn. Best thing is actually that most people don't know how to play with Mana Maze on the table and they make mistakes. I've had some fun casting Squee before combo against red thresh. I don't play it anymore, but still like the card.


So they couldnt use their burn to kill a bird, while comboing?!
Vexing Shusher seems better though now...



Divert works great against black disruption decks which is an unfavourable matchup. Divert a thoughtseize, hymn, sinkhole, smother and other similar stuff.

lol... i only saw that card as protectio from targeted removal on your dreadnought and never thought about protection from discard... seems great!

Eddie
08-15-2008, 04:22 AM
I tried the build with goyfs yesterday against my teammates four decks.

Aluren: 3-0. Walk in the park. But you probably think this matchup isn't relevant.

GBR Loam: 2-1. Lost one game due to Raven's Crime and Wasteland in his first turn.

Goblins: 2-1

Red Thresh: 2-0

Looking good right?

Number of times Tarmogoyf was cast: 2
Number of times Tarmogoyf attacked: 1
Number of times I finished someone with it: 0
Number of games Tarmogoyf was actually relevant to the game state: 0

The only good thing about it was that it's a creature and I could use survival to fetch a better one. So I might just as well play Zodiac Rooster instead of Tarmogoyf. The cards I cut for Tarmogoyf where far better in this deck.

TheLion
08-15-2008, 04:35 AM
Nice results... grats!
can you post your decklist please? Did you run Stiflenought?
I hardly can believe the 2-0 against red thresh. I usuallly have problems against AggroControl. Especially, if they can Stifle your Phage and Fetchies, or Burn a Bird or something while comboing.

Eddie
08-15-2008, 05:34 AM
Decklist was almost the same like the one on the previous page, except I made room for goyfs:

3 Forest
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta

4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Psychatog
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Daze
2 Ponder

I don't play the goyfs anymore. Now I'm back to
+1 Wall of Roots
+1 Eternal Witness
+1 Daze


I hardly can believe the 2-0 against red thresh. I usuallly have problems against AggroControl. Especially, if they can Stifle your Phage and Fetchies, or Burn a Bird or something while comboing.

I've never had much problems with it. Red thresh plays differently than the other matchups. They have a slow clock and you should be able to hold them off with Wall of Roots (or goyf in this build). If you can drop survival in the second turn then you shouldn't have any problems winning the game. Certainly try to play survival before their counterbalance, otherwise you won't be able to play it. You don't have to go for the phage kill either. Akroma beatdown works better here. Psychatog is also very important to control the top of your graveyard. Dreadnought works great against them as well, either by using stifle or shapeshifter.

They don't have an unlimited supply of burn and stifles. So play it slow and keep backup resources in hand.

TheLion
08-15-2008, 07:31 AM
This list looks really solid (-3 goyf). And very similar to what i have tested out, and would play. (except i play 2 enl. tutors in place of ponders)

I have still some open questions:
3 or 4 shapeshifters?
3 or 4 dreadnoughts?
Also i play 2 Ranger and no wall or roots. I'm also not sure about this, but Ranger is just so good...
Oh, and i still play Blazing Archon. Not sure if it is needed, if the deck is taken to more aggro approach (via Stifle nought)

Do have a good SB plan? vexing shushers? Divert? B2B still good?

Eddie
08-15-2008, 10:23 AM
I prefer 4 shapeshifters and 4 dreadnoughts. I'm not sure why people play less cause it makes you more dependent on Survival and you have less "oops, I win" hands.

Ranger is great, but I only have one for wasteland protection mostly. I prefer wall of roots cause Goblins is still popular and it's great to block a turn 1 lackey. Wall of roots is also a great blocker for Tarmogoyf in the first couple of turns.

I'm not that fond of Blazing Archon cause you are dependent on shapeshifter. I can think of better things to do with shapeshifter in play. I have a Silent Arbiter in my sideboard that has somewhat the same function. It's easy to cast and keeps creature rushes at bay.

I'm working on the SB. Divert and B2B are still in it cause they're great cards.

fearphage
08-17-2008, 09:13 AM
I play 3 Volrath's Shapeshifter because they are not good on their own. They require another piece to be solid/usable/strong. So opening with 2 of them in hand doesn't mean game over for my opponent or that I'm even in a great position. I'd rather find them or expect them after the other pieces fall into place. I've run as few as 2 in the past. Another utility creature I like is Shriekmaw. In addition to taking out pesky creatures, he has fear which I've used as "unblockable enough" to get the shapeshifter in to deal combat damage.

Quirion ranger was a beast with Rofellos (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rofellos,%20Llanowar%20Emissary) but with BOP it isn't stellar. Besides attacking and being able to block and untapping BOPs, what else are you using it for? Am I missing another interaction.

Another utility creature I've used on occasion is Hypnox (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Hpynox). This is usually a fallback after the Phage plan has failed or as a precursor. Worst case scenario if the shapeshifter resolves with it in the yard, my opponent has no hand and I have an 8/8 flyer. This is generally game over if this resolves.

I saw Mosswort Bridge (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mosswort%20bridge) in some lists and I was testing that as a 2-of. Sometimes it is golden, holding the stifle you need for the nought or a hard counter for cheap to protect him or other creatures. It can even hold one nought that you can bring in to sac to the other (like the vial trick).

I've been bouncing back and forth between Wall of Roots and Sakura-Tribe Elder. The main thing I don't like about the wall is it can only produce green mana. I can keep a 2 forest hand with Elders but not with the wall.

Another card that I'm holding onto (possibly unnecessarily) is Genesis (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Genesis). It's hard for me to make a survival deck without him. With Spore Frog (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spore%20Frog) in the board, I've had to do the fog lock to give me time to draw into answers/the win.

I also play 1 Trickbind as stifle #5 and wouldn't mind upping this to 1 more. With 6 stifle effects, I wouldn't mind stifling their first turn fetch as much.

Eddie
08-17-2008, 12:16 PM
I play 3 Volrath's Shapeshifter because they are not good on their own. They require another piece to be solid/usable/strong. So opening with 2 of them in hand doesn't mean game over for my opponent or that I'm even in a great position. I'd rather find them or expect them after the other pieces fall into place. I've run as few as 2 in the past. Another utility creature I like is Shriekmaw. In addition to taking out pesky creatures, he has fear which I've used as "unblockable enough" to get the shapeshifter in to deal combat damage.

Shapeshifter is almost never dead with 4 dreadnoughts in the deck. I'm always happy to see one when beginning or topdeck one lategame. Of course, I don't play genesis so I can't recur them.


Quirion ranger was a beast with Rofellos but with BOP it isn't stellar. Besides attacking and being able to block and untapping BOPs, what else are you using it for? Am I missing another interaction.

It helps to protect the combo against people playing wasteland. It helps against landdestruction in general. And one land and one bop is still 4 mana.


Another utility creature I've used on occasion is Hypnox. This is usually a fallback after the Phage plan has failed or as a precursor. Worst case scenario if the shapeshifter resolves with it in the yard, my opponent has no hand and I have an 8/8 flyer. This is generally game over if this resolves.

It is a good card. But it's a dead card without shapeshifter and I want to avoid that. One simple topdeck from them and they are back in the game.


I saw Mosswort Bridge in some lists and I was testing that as a 2-of. Sometimes it is golden, holding the stifle you need for the nought or a hard counter for cheap to protect him or other creatures. It can even hold one nought that you can bring in to sac to the other (like the vial trick).

I don't like it. A non-basic that comes into play tapped? You might be able to pull some cute tricks with it, but I think it'll hurt your game more than anything else. I've tried it but never liked it.


I've been bouncing back and forth between Wall of Roots and Sakura-Tribe Elder. The main thing I don't like about the wall is it can only produce green mana. I can keep a 2 forest hand with Elders but not with the wall.

And I can block a goyf / lackey / whatever multiple times and I can get the mana right away. And you need lots of green mana when survivling. I never had a lot of hands with only 2 green. I'm playing 8 fetchlands so I get my colors fast enough. And my 4 birds give me all the colors I need.


Another card that I'm holding onto (possibly unnecessarily) is Genesis. It's hard for me to make a survival deck without him. With Spore Frog in the board, I've had to do the fog lock to give me time to draw into answers/the win.

The spore frog lock is 4 mana and your opponent can't have instant creature kill or it won't work. Maybe you didn't lose some games with it, but you always have to imagine what you could have done with 4 mana and 2 different cards. Stuff like winning instead of not losing for example.


I also play 1 Trickbind as stifle #5 and wouldn't mind upping this to 1 more. With 6 stifle effects, I wouldn't mind stifling their first turn fetch as much.

I don't mind stifling either, but I play 4 shapeshifter so the trickbind isn't needed.

TheLion
08-17-2008, 01:30 PM
It helps to protect the combo against people playing wasteland. It helps against landdestruction in general. And one land and one bop is still 4 mana.


That's the only purpose I see, too. But the mana acceleration, he brings, is very much needed. I think with BoP he's already good enough. Also if only have one land and Ranger, you would be able to cast a 2CC spell on turn two.

Sometimes if, needed, he untaps the Bird in opponent's turn, to either block and/or make mana.

If you play Tradewind Rider (I still play it in SB), you can bounce two permanents, in the mid/lategame, if it comes so far.



It is a good card. But it's a dead card without shapeshifter and I want to avoid that. One simple topdeck from them and they are back in the game.


I tested Hypnox, too. And I think there are better options. You a) need Survival online, b) have a Shapeshifter, and c) he must resolve. All these things do not happen before turn 3/4.
Aggro decks have emptied their hand anyway by then, and control decks will counter him then. He might be good against a few decks like Enchantress, but you could just win then, too.
So I also think, he's not worth the slot.



I don't like it. A non-basic that comes into play tapped? You might be able to pull some cute tricks with it, but I think it'll hurt your game more than anything else. I've tried it but never liked it.


I saw these in some lists, too. And I tested it, too. And I agree with you. I don't like it either.
You often don't find a good card, you want to remove. It comes into play tapped, which slows you down a turn. I often caught myself thinking "Damn, if the Bridge were a Forest now, I would win now". It gets wasted as soon as possible. You can't bounce it with Ranger, in case someone is wasting it during comboing. And it still needs Dreadnought in play, to do anything.




And I can block a goyf / lackey / whatever multiple times and I can get the mana right away. And you need lots of green mana when survivling. I never had a lot of hands with only 2 green. I'm playing 8 fetchlands so I get my colors fast enough. And my 4 birds give me all the colors I need.


Maybe a split between both? I told you, there were one situation against Dragon Stompy (with Blood Moon out), were I justed neede the 1 damn Island to win (to cast Shapeshifter). If I have had the Elder to search for the Island, I probably would have won.



The spore frog lock is 4 mana and your opponent can't have instant creature kill or it won't work. Maybe you didn't lose some games with it, but you always have to imagine what you could have done with 4 mana and 2 different cards. Stuff like winning instead of not losing for example.


I'm unsure about this, too. For Genesis I think he is too good in the lategame. So I play him Mainboard. Spore Frog is only good against aggro decks without Instant removal. And the only decks that come to mind are affinity and elves... He dies to Jitte, Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator and so on.
That's why I still prefer Blazing Archon, who does not die by red burn or 5 Jitte counters.

fearphage
08-17-2008, 08:25 PM
I have been thinking about this deck more and just wanted to prompt some more discussion around it.

What are the biggest problems you face playing this deck? The people I get to play with aren't hardcore players so I don't know. Is it targetted removal on the shifter? targetted removal on BOP? Wasteland? Just curious. I was digging through some of my old FEB threads and decks looking for cards and see what you all thought of them.

Some other cards to discuss, test, and/or consider:
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Kira,%20Great%20Glass-Spinner) (over plaxmanta)
Cairn Wanderer (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Cairn%20Wanderer) (with a little setup [more survivaling] this could be nice)
Akroma, Angel of Fury (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Akroma,%20Angel%20of%20Fury) (pro-STP and pro-bounce. This is seemingly more relevant than pro-direct damage and terror/shriekmaw)
Cephalid Inkshrouder (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Cephalid%20Inkshrouder) (introducing the unblockable, untargettable Phage)

Cute tricks (read: other things i've played):
Kuro, Pitlord (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Kuro,%20Pitlord) (anti-creature)
Wormfang Manta (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Wormfang Manta) - nice to discard when you can't save your shapeshifter any other way
Escape Artist (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Escape%20Artist) - i don't know if this has ever been confirmed by another human being but I believe Wormfang Manta + Escape Artist can create infinite turns for the cheap rate of 1UU [shapeshifter] + 2G [genesis] + U [escape artist]. Escape artist on top of gy, play shifter and then activate escape artist (discarding Wormfang Manta). It hits the yard before the artist/shifter (now manta) leaves play... right? I know this is very late game and very situational but yea. It is what it is.
Palinchron (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Palinchron)

At one point, I was running black over blue + Anger (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Anger) and Krovikan horror (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Krovikan horror) as almost-Squee #2. With that came:
I actually had a partially transformational sideboard at the end of my run. Sideboarded 1 Enduring Renewal, 1 Academy Rector, and went infinite damage with Krovikan Horror + Rofellos + 3 forest (Sac Rofellos to Horror for 1 damage, replay and keep going).It was not often used but sometimes it was required against spore frog lock, unpayable ghostly prison effects, blazing archon, solitary confinement, etc. It's a nice trick game two when they are expecting Phage. Keep in mind that I didn't replace any parts of the Phage combo. I just sided out utility creatures for those cards.

TheLion
08-18-2008, 01:30 PM
What are the biggest problems you face playing this deck? The people I get to play with aren't hardcore players so I don't know. Is it targetted removal on the shifter? targetted removal on BOP? Wasteland? Just curious. I was digging through some of my old FEB threads and decks looking for cards and see what you all thought of them.


Hm... I've only tested this deck over MWS so far. IMO the hardest matchups are fast aggro-control decks, which are beating in, while disrupting you (hand disruption or counter on survival).
And in general all decks/spells which attack your manabase are bad. Also recurring Wastelands. That's why basic lands are so important.

Targeted removal on the shifter slows u down by 1 turn. You just search a new Shifter and try again, (except when they manage to win then somehow).
Genesis helps here too, against slower decks.
Same with removal on BoP, but most players rather remove Shapeshifter, than BoP.




Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Kira,%20Great%20Glass-Spinner) (over plaxmanta)


I never tested her. I don't like her... because I think she is slow, and would slow you down by 1 turn. Then you have a similar scenario, if Shapeshifter was killed (see above).



Cairn Wanderer (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Cairn%20Wanderer) (with a little setup [more survivaling] this could be nice)


Hm. no. This would only be good with Akroma in GY. Too narrow imo. And it would still cost 5 mana and only has a 4/4 body. But never tested though... maybe...



Akroma, Angel of Fury (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Akroma,%20Angel%20of%20Fury) (pro-STP and pro-bounce. This is seemingly more relevant than pro-direct damage and terror/shriekmaw)
Cephalid Inkshrouder (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Cephalid%20Inkshrouder) (introducing the unblockable, untargettable Phage)


The most important ability of Angel of Wrath is Haste (besides Flying). The whole protection thing is usually useless, since if Shapeshifter shifts to Phage, there is no protection any longer.

I never tested Inkshrouder, though i saw him in some lists. The problem I see: Your opponent could still sword your shapeshifter in response to the Inkshrouder's discard ability. The unblockable is useless. I had never ever had a match, where akroma could not at least deal 1 combat damage.



Cute tricks (read: other things i've played):
Kuro, Pitlord (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Kuro,%20Pitlord) (anti-creature)
Wormfang Manta (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Wormfang Manta) - nice to discard when you can't save your shapeshifter any other way
Escape Artist (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Escape%20Artist) - i don't know if this has ever been confirmed by another human being but I believe Wormfang Manta + Escape Artist can create infinite turns for the cheap rate of 1UU [shapeshifter] + 2G [genesis] + U [escape artist]. Escape artist on top of gy, play shifter and then activate escape artist (discarding Wormfang Manta). It hits the yard before the artist/shifter (now manta) leaves play... right? I know this is very late game and very situational but yea. It is what it is.
Palinchron (http://www.magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Palinchron)


The only purpose of Palinchron is to be able to win on turn 3. To achieve this, you need BoP, and Survival on your start hand, together with 3 lands and 2 other creatures on turn 2/3.

turn 1: Land/BoP.
turn 2: Land/Survival. activate it for Palinchron.
turn 3: Land. Survival Palinchron for Shapie. Play him. Untap. Discard another creature for Akroma, then Phage.

That is soooooooooooooo rarely, that he's not worth it... Turn 4/5 you should enough mana anyway.

Kuro: I prefer Blazing Archon.

And yea, your combo seems to work. But you'll need 5 cards (your 4 creatures + Survival), and 7 mana to get it going... 2 of those cards are useless... therefore I'd forget about it.

The general problem of the "cute-tricks" cards is, that the more you pack into your deck, the more it is reliant on survival and/or shapeshifter and the more it loses consistency.

You just don't want to have hands with: "Land, Land, Blazing Archon, Kuro, Akroma, Escape Arist, Daze". And it happens often enough then.

Eddie
08-18-2008, 02:30 PM
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (over plaxmanta)I never tested her. I don't like her... because I think she is slow, and would slow you down by 1 turn. Then you have a similar scenario, if Shapeshifter was killed (see above).

I like Kira. I played her before trying Plaxmanta, but now I settled on none cause it's easier to try again. But I don't believe it would slow you down by a turn. You only need one of both in the lategame anyway. Also, you can cast Kira the turn before you combo, Plaxmanta needs to be played the turn you combo. They both have advantages and disadvantages. I probably still prefer Kira cause even if they waste 2 removal spells on shapeshifter, you still have Kira attacking and protecting future tries.


Cairn Wanderer
Never tried it. Seems a hassle but I can't comment on it much without testing.


Akroma, Angel of Fury
Pro - White is a huge plus. Never seen any bounce so blue is not relevant. Black and Red are pretty important in our meta. I won by keeping my shapeshifter an Akroma and attacking multiple times when I knew they had removal for phage. The big drawback of Akroma, Angel of Fury is the absence of haste. That's why I think Akroma, Angel of Wrath is better.


Cephalid Inkshrouder
Played it in the first versions. I don't think the deck needs a card like that right now.

fearphage
08-18-2008, 04:32 PM
I never tested her. I don't like her... because I think she is slow, and would slow you down by 1 turn. Then you have a similar scenario, if Shapeshifter was killed (see above).The benefit is that she protects all your creatures. Bolting a bird/ranger is just as effective at keeping you from winning as killing the shifter/phage.


I never tested Inkshrouder, though i saw him in some lists. The problem I see: Your opponent could still sword your shapeshifter in response to the Inkshrouder's discard ability.Maybe this is a reason to play an additional Phage? I don't know. With an additional Phage, you can respond to STP by getting pyshchatog to reveal Inkshrouder again and redeploy Phage. Another Phage would take Tormod's Crypt out of the "can't combo with it on the table" category also. Again, just a thought.


The only purpose of Palinchron is to be able to win on turn 3. To achieve this, you need BoP, and Survival on your start hand, together with 3 lands and 2 other creatures on turn 2/3.At the time I played FEB, it was a very different list from this. Stifle and dreadnought were not a part of it. I had much more search: Brainstorm, Impulse and Enlightened Tutor. So I always went for turn 3 wins with turn 4 being a strong possibility.


And yea, your combo seems to work. But you'll need 4 cards (your 4 creatures + Survival), and 7 mana to get it going... 2 of those cards are useless... therefore I'd forget about it.The two cards being Enduring Renewal and Academy Rector, i presume? This was the only two cards that weren't main deck in an old FEB list so this was a very minor addition. I just brought it up to spark some discussion really and maybe spark someone else onto some more card interactions or card ideas.


The general problem of the "cute-tricks" cards is, that the more you pack into your deck, the more it is reliant on survival and/or shapeshifter and the more it loses consistency.This is a combo deck. The COMBOnation of different elements in the deck are what make it work. The cards do rely on one another already. It seems you are trying to make a deck that Survival becomes win-more/win-faster in. It is the heart of the deck although there are other outs. Combo pieces rely on other pieces. It is not something that can be "fixed".

Eddie
08-19-2008, 02:48 AM
Maybe this is a reason to play an additional Phage? I don't know. With an additional Phage, you can respond to STP by getting pyshchatog to reveal Inkshrouder again and redeploy Phage. Another Phage would take Tormod's Crypt out of the "can't combo with it on the table" category also. Again, just a thought.

You have 4 stifles to handle crypt so that isn't a big problem. I don't think you need a second phage. If your combo gets disrupted you simply drop a dreadnought and start beating. A 12/12 trampler isn't that bad.


This is a combo deck. The COMBOnation of different elements in the deck are what make it work. The cards do rely on one another already. It seems you are trying to make a deck that Survival becomes win-more/win-faster in. It is the heart of the deck although there are other outs. Combo pieces rely on other pieces. It is not something that can be "fixed".

I understand what you are saying, but that doesn't mean I agree ;-). Yes, the combo is the most important part of the deck. And you will have dead cards in hand cause you don't have the other combo piece. But that doesn't mean you can simply add a lot of combo pieces. You will only end up with more dead cards in hand cause you are missing one piece. A dead topdeck mid-lategame is like giving your opponent a free turn. I think it's very important to avoid this as much as possible. This means I don't want to include a lot of creatures that are worthless on their own. Right now I have three of those (Akroma, Squee and Phage). I'd hate topdecking a palinchron or a hypnox when I don't have a survival or shapeshifter. Keep your dependency count as low as possible and the deck will function better when disrupted.

AngryTroll
08-21-2008, 02:56 AM
I put this together, and it's better than I would have guessed. I played FEB wayyy back in the day, so I thought it would be fun to see if the deck was competitive enough to be fun to play. I was pleasantly surprised with the lists posted here after goldfishing them all day for consistency, speed, and resiliency. Not a DTB, especially with all the graveyard removal running around, but much better to the lists from back in the day.

Unearth, Thoughtseize, and Goyf should all be in the deck. Fitting in Goyf and either Unearth or Thoughtseize is easy, but all three is difficult. If you can stick a Survival, just tutoring up a Goyf every turn will win through Swords, graveyard hate, burn, and Wastelands. Dropping an early Goyf almost always buys you turns, and often swings next to Dreadnaught to speed up the deck's clock.

Goyf significantly increases the thread density of the deck, buys time to set up combo wins, swings alongside Dreadnaught to speed up games, and will win games all by itself when the combo doesn't come together.

Unearth is solid. Bringing back Goyf, Shapeshifter, Dreadnaught, and Tog for one mana is amazing. Unearth can speed up the win, help power through countermagic, and fight through non-StP removal. Cycling is icing on this cardboard-y cake.

Thoughtseize is, well, great when combined with Force and Stifle. I don't know how to fit it into the list alongside Unearth; I'm not sure which is the weaker card.

Eddie
08-21-2008, 03:40 AM
Glad you like it.

Fitting in Thoughtseize shouldn't be a big problem. It means you'll be playing without Force of Will. You'd be bringing the blue count down to the level that force isn't playable anyway. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Thoughtseize might work fine instead of force. Combining the two will be hard. You would probably cut daze and ponder for them leaving you with 4 less blue cards.

I'm not sure how you would fit in Goyf and Unearth though, even if you don't add Thoughtseize. Which cards would you cut? I'm still interested in playing Goyf. Goyf didn't look good in testing, but it might have been great in the tournament I played afterwards. Didn't see survival all day and saw multiple krosan grips on my dreadnoughts.

TheLion
08-21-2008, 04:58 AM
The thing about Thoughtseize and Unearth is: Black is not only a splash color anymore (for Psychatog and Shriekmaw), but more a main color.
I tested a list with only 4 Thoughtseize. I recongnized that you must run Underground Sea, because only Bayou is often too few,
especially when you want to cast Brainstorm and Thoughtseize in the early turns.
Running Sea weakens your mana base even more. You can't use it for Survival, you can't protect it from Wasteland via Quirion Ranger.
I didn't like that mana base.
Next point: As already mentioned, you hardly can effort Force of Will anymore.
You often end up with a weak mana base and unable to cast FoW.
Next point: I think Thoughtseize slows you down a bit. Turn 1 you ususally want to cast Birds/Brainstorm/Ponder, turn 2 Survival or Stifle/Nought.
If you cast Thoughtseize instead, you lose a turn.

So, personally I don't like that many black cards, for the given reasons. I tested Unearth too, for a short while, but it didn't do that great things I hoped for.
And the deck suffered for the same reasons.

And if I thought about it, it should not really matter if run Counterspell/Daze or Thoughtseize as disruptive card.

Also, if you can't stand running black disuption I'd rather play Cabal Therapy in this deck. Maybe 2-3, since you usually only want to rip their swords or FoWs before comboing.

Eddie
08-21-2008, 10:23 AM
@AngryTroll, following your advice, I might try something like this:

3 Forest
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta

4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Psychatog
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Unearth

Blue count might be off at 17 for Force of Will, but we'll see.

AngryTroll
08-21-2008, 12:51 PM
@AngryTroll, following your advice, I might try something like this:

3 Forest
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta

4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Psychatog
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Unearth

Blue count might be off at 17 for Force of Will, but we'll see.

That's what I've been testing, with slightly different land, and -2 Wall of Roots, -1 Ranger for +3 Ponder. That looks pretty solid; Wall of Roots is a great card, after playing with the deck some more I will see if I can fit it in.

I'd run Force first, Thoughtseize second. With room for only one, I was using Force, because as mentioned, Thoughtseize wants to be played on turn one, when Birds, Ponder, and Brainstorm are all competing for that one mana.

Eddie
08-29-2008, 03:12 AM
I've played this deck against Pikula yesterday. The deck plays differently compared to the previous builds, but it's not bad. Pikula type of decks are the worst matchups, but I think the above list has a better chance. Unearth has been great so far. I've played it before but it didn't work out cause I had little to return. Now it works great. Tarmogoyf is better in this build (compared to previous builds), but it's still not as great as you would expect.

I had some problems with the manabase, which can be expected against Pikula. I had to start with 1 land and birds a lot of games. Strange cause I've been flooded sometimes but generally didn't have any problems before. Getting 2 blue was difficult, probably cause I had to fit a second bayou. Maybe I can go back to 1 bayou. I probably should return to 4 tropicals, increasing the number of non-basics. I didn't play Wall of Roots or Quirion Ranger, although these are great against disruption decks. I played the 3 ponders instead.

Maybe I should cut some ponders or goyfs to increase stability in the manabase. I'm not that happy about cutting a card from either. Ponder helps to find the second land anyway and is still great lategame to find bombs. Maybe I should play 3 goyfs and add the 4th tropical island?

Skub
08-29-2008, 11:26 AM
I think it is also better to add a 4th trop and perhaps go up to 19 lands. I have put unearth in the sideboard en would board it in against MUC, Pikula and decks like these. I did not find unearth handy against other matchups. I run the following build and play discard over counter. The manabase is not stable and needs work. It's more a casual deck:

2 Forest
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
2 Island

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Psychatog
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Volrath's Shapeshifter
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wall of Roots
3 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

3 Extirpate
2 Withered Wretch
3 Propaganda
3 Unearth
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator

TheLion
08-29-2008, 12:06 PM
I think it is also better to add a 4th trop and perhaps go up to
19 lands. I run the following build. It's more a casual deck:


Aggreed! Actually... who had the insane idea of dropping a Tropical??

Also I'd at least run 1 Quirion Ranger as tutor target. Only to give you the 1 mana boost, you need sometimes to win (i you have no more land and birds already in play) and you would survival it up, the turn before.

Eddie
08-29-2008, 12:17 PM
Aggreed! Actually... who had the insane idea of dropping a Tropical??

Also I'd at least run 1 Quirion Ranger as tutor target. Only to give you the 1 mana boost, you need sometimes to win (i you have no more land and birds already in play) and you would survival it up, the turn before.

I did cause I was testing the 2nd bayou and needed to change a land. I'm back to 4, and I'm playing only 1 bayou. But I've added ranger back to protect my lands.

Volt
08-29-2008, 12:35 PM
.

DireLemming
08-29-2008, 02:23 PM
I think this deck needs to be more streamlined and less gimmicky. What I tried to achieve with my build is to 1) minimise the number of dead cards, 2) graveyard reliance and 3) Survival reliance. Hence no Squee or Akroma.

As far as disruption suit goes, Daze is terrible here since the deck is quite mana-intensive. On the other hand it has a great curve, making Counter-Top win you games on it's own.

For reference:

2 Forest
3 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Polluted Delta

4 Wall of Roots
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Psychatog
1 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 SDT
4 Counterbalance

The slots I'm not sure about are Infiltrator and Wall of Roots.

Candidates for Infiltrator's slot were Giant Solifuge and Cephalid Inkshrouder but with the addition of Counterbalance the ability to tutor for 2cc spells won in the end.

As for WoR, the acceleration is nice, but with Survival playing a less central role, the demand for green mana has dropped somewhat. Exchanging them for Goyfs would add an effective plan C (or is it D?). Such a change would probably necessitate adding more lands though. The problem with doing so is it needs to be in favour of non-creature spells as Survival with only 19 creatures is borderline as it is.

Eddie
08-30-2008, 02:15 AM
I understand what you are trying to do, but I'm not sure if that is the correct way. The haste of Akroma is huge, as is the card advantage of squee.


The problem with doing so is it needs to be in favour of non-creature spells as Survival with only 19 creatures is borderline as it is.

That's one of the big reasons you want squee. You simply can't survival and cast creatures each turn without it. IMHO this deck has a survival engine, which means it's more than playing 4 Survival of the Fittest.

You play with 4 counterbalance and 3 tops, so you'll end up with dead cards anyway. You can easily cut 2 cards there. I'd also cut the infiltrator.

How are the 10 fetchlands working out for you? I play 8 and I think it's enough. There is some amount of stifles floating around here.


As far as disruption suit goes, Daze is terrible here since the deck is quite mana-intensive.

Personally I love daze. It's great to force a turn 2-3 thread through. You play with 8 creatures that give mana so returning a land to your hand shouldn't be a big problem.

Check out this deck here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19220). I haven't tried it like this. 14 creatures is way to low and I think there aren't enough one-drops. But it's basically trying the same thing you are: depending less on survival. Not sure if that's needed though. The build with 4 dreadnought and 4 goyf isn't very dependent on survival anyway.

DireLemming
08-30-2008, 04:14 AM
I understand what you are trying to do, but I'm not sure if that is the correct way. The haste of Akroma is huge, as is the card advantage of squee.
Haste really is good only when going for the Phage kill as it requires your opponent to have instant speed removal or loose. In all other cases the need to survival for an additional piece often translates into delaying you for a turn negating the speed aspect.

Having said that, I will test Giant Solifuge some more. It seems strictly superior to Akroma since it is castable and immune to StP and bounce. 4 power with is enough evasion in most cases.


How are the 10 fetchlands working out for you? I play 8 and I think it's enough. There is some amount of stifles floating around here.

It's great. With 5 basics it means I am virtually immune to non-basic hate. Stifle is usually not a problem to play around. You are the control in most match-ups and can easily wait for them to tap out. Besides I rather they Stifle my fetchland than Phage trigger or Survival.
The synergy with Top well worth it as well.


Personally I love daze. It's great to force a turn 2-3 thread through. You play with 8 creatures that give mana so returning a land to your hand shouldn't be a big problem.
I suppose we play Daze differently. I use it primarily to disrupt the opponent not force my own threats through (probably somewhat dependent on the metagame as well).
The mana issue is not that simple. For one, WoR compensates poorly as you need to return a blue source. The bigger problem is, Daze effectively comes on-line on T2 at the earliest since starting with a basic Forest is the most stable opening. This reduces the usability of Daze both as an offensive and defensive card (the most likely counterspells are either free or cost U), especially if they went first.

EDIT:

You play with 4 counterbalance and 3 tops, so you'll end up with dead cards anyway.
Not really. Extra CBs pitch to Fow while the first resolved Top can be used to prevent drawing the rest. The only really dead draw is having 2 Tops in the opening hand which is one of the reasons why I don't run the full playset.

AngryTroll
08-30-2008, 04:27 AM
Instead of running 4 Wall of Roots, run 4 Goyf. Then, add back the Squee so that you can Survival up a Goyf every turn. Wall of Roots doesn't do a very good job of being a Wall and mana accelerant anymore, because to block opposing Goyfs it really needs to be an 0/4 or an 0/5. Your Goyfs, on the other hand, always block opposing Goyfs.

Running Goyf makes the deck less dependent on Survival, and give you a second, non-combo way to win with Survival, if they are running too many cards to mess with your graveyard order.

Here is the list I have been running. The problem with FEB is that although you steal a great number of game ones, game two and three get much, much worse when they board both graveyard hate and artifact and enchantment removal.

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shapeshifter
4 Phrexian Dreadnaught

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Phage, the Untouchable
1 Psychatog

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Reanimate / Unearth
4 Force of Will

4 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
6-8 Fetches
Some Forests to make 18 land total

Psychatog is actually amazing to have in play. If possible, I get him in play with Reanimate/Unearth, or Survival him up before trying to win. He's a great creature in his own right, but his interaction with the graveyard and Shapeshifter is simply amazing.

The board would include Pithing Needles, Krosan Grips, your own Tormod's Crypts, and assorted other goodies.

Eddie
08-30-2008, 04:52 AM
Having said that, I will test Giant Solifuge some more. It seems strictly superior to Akroma since it is castable and immune to StP and bounce.

Not relevant at all. They can simply bounce or STP when you turn the shapeshifter into phage. It's not like you are going to keep beating with Solifuge. I have won several games cause I kept beating with Akroma instead of turning into phage.


I suppose we play Daze differently. I use it primarily to disrupt the opponent not force my own threats through (probably somewhat dependent on the metagame as well).

It depends on what my opponent is playing I guess. If I'm playing against combo I'd happily daze their dark ritual. Or against Goblins their lackey if I'm unable to provide a blocker. I almost never daze an opponents creature cause these are irrelevant most of the time. I'll admit that you have to weigh the tempo loss against the gain from countering the spell. The most important thing about daze is that you can drop a turn 2 survival without worrying too much.


Psychatog is actually amazing to have in play. If possible, I get him in play with Reanimate/Unearth, or Survival him up before trying to win. He's a great creature in his own right, but his interaction with the graveyard and Shapeshifter is simply amazing.

Agreed. I never understood lists without psychatog. It's a great card.

This is my board right now:

2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
3 Back to Basics
3 Divert
3 Compost
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Silent Arbiter

TheLion
08-30-2008, 04:30 PM
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
3 Back to Basics
3 Divert
3 Compost
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Silent Arbiter

Can you explain, why you play 3 Divert AND 3 Compost, which are all against black disruption decks, I assume. Isn't that too much?

Why no Vexing Shusher? Why a 2/2 split between Grip and Predator? I'd rather play a 3/1 split, since Predator is tutorable.
Why no Ground Seal (anymore)?

Eddie
08-31-2008, 08:25 AM
Compost can go in against Ichorid and maybe Loam decks (raven's crime) too, while Divert is great against Burn, GoyfSligh and stuff like that. Maybe a total of 6 is too much.


Why no Vexing Shusher?
All control decks have a huge amount of removal, so Shusher doesn't stay long. The idea is that you simply play a different thread instead. You have to go aggro against control. Maybe I was just unlucky in testing, but I never got to protect a spell with Shusher.


Why a 2/2 split between Grip and Predator? I'd rather play a 3/1 split, since Predator is tutorable.
Sometimes Grip is better than predator, sometimes predator is better. Predator is still a great card even if my opponent doesn't have artifacts or enchantments on the board. It beats for 2, flies and is blue and an extra creature for survival. Krosan Grip is sometimes dead in hand and I never wanted to side in more than 2. It's easier to board Predator cause you can keep the creature count high enough after siding. I like the 2/2 split right now.


Why no Ground Seal (anymore)?
I don't care that much about extirpate anymore and extirpate was the biggest reason to play Ground Seal.

TheLion
11-10-2008, 04:02 PM
Wooohhoooo. Finally a Full English Breakfast deck making place 1 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20910) on a large tournament (45 players).

@Decklist: I think the red Akroma is a typo and should be the white one.
No Birds seem very strange, but he has Ponder and 1 SDT to search for lands instead.
4 Spell Snare seems too much for me.
2 Tropicals are too few.

The SB seems a little strange, too. 2 Diamond Valley?

Else his list comes close to ours, some posts ago.

What do you think?

Btw: I tested Empyrial Archangel in the meantime instead of Blazing Archon/SSS or whatever, but for me he didn't quite well.

AngryTroll
12-20-2008, 03:54 AM
Here's what I've been working on lately. I ended up trimming out some of the classic Breakfast cards, but the result is a much more streamlined deck. You can't randomly win with Phage, but I think the deck is much more consistent overall this way.

4 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dreadnaught
2 Shriekmaw
2 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Psychatog
1 Genesis
1 Squee

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

Thoughts, Issues, and Comments:

First, it's still 61 cards. It should be 60; it needs another land; and it needs a Wonder. That's three slots to find in the list somewhere.
I feel like I'd like some more removal in the deck, possibly a bounce spell. No luck so far on slots, though.

I ended up dropping Birds for Thoughtseizes. Birds were great in the deck, but really were primarily for the Survival plan; they didn't contribute a ton to the Goyf Plan B. Thoughtseize is great for plan A and B, so they made the cut. That does make the creature count low at only 15, so it is important to try to hold onto a creature for Survival. You do have Brainstorm and Top to find a creature, so I've felt like it's been worth it so far.

Shriekmaw is awesome. Survivaling for a Goyf every turn is awesome, and then you have Shriekmaws to eat opposing Goyfs (and everything else besides Dreadnaughts). Genesis + Shriekmaw is awesome. Shriekmaw also grants Fear to Shapeshifter, which is relevant on occasion (tonight, for example, I finally broke a game open that involved 4 Goyfs, a Shapeshifter, and a Tog staring down 8 Slivers). Wonder would do this as well.

Top is awesome if you don't have Survival in the midgame. It is really painful to have to use Top to make land drops early on, though. The land count really should be 21 or 22. I could see dropping Tops for Land, the 61st card, and Wonder, but Top is one of the best cards to have if you don't have Survival.

The deck's plan without Survival (Goyfs and/or Dreadnaught-Stifles) is better without Phage, Akroma, and Reamimate. Two Shapeshifters has been pretty satisfying so far- I don't think I'd run one or four, but two seems solid.

The biggest issues I have are making room for those last couple of slots. The land and the Wonder really need to make the deck.

Overall, I've been pretty impressed with it so far. It feels more like an aggro-control Thresh deck than FEB, but with the "Oops, I have Survival, I win" or "Oops, Dreadnaught Stifle, I win" aspects to go with the cheap countermagic, Brainstorms and Tops, and Goyfs. The Goyf plan is obviously great, the Dreadnaught-Stifle package keeps putting up results, and Survivaling for a Goyf every turn is amazing.

TheLion
12-20-2008, 05:42 AM
The main question I ask: Why do you still need Volrath's Shapeshifter, if you don't have any tricks and/or the Phage kill with it.
Only for copying Goyfs and Dreadnoughts? It seems like too much effort, too keep the top card of your GY a copying-worth creature.

3 Tops seems to much for me. Tried Ponder instead? Or with Counterbalance?

15 creatures is really low for Survival...
2 Shriekmaw feels like if there is 1 too much.

Also in my build I often found, that 4 Dreadnought are too much, since they are too often dead (without Stifle) and can be tutored up, so I am currently testing with 3. Some Dreadstill lists play with 3, too.

Unfortunately it really feels if Dreadstill and Threshold had married... I'd really miss the "Oops I win with Phage" part.

adrieng
12-20-2008, 08:57 AM
I have been testing a little breakfast. I have found aether vial to be an auto include. It alloweds to protect from counterbalance and counters.
Here is the list I am testing. I haven't got a side yet. I am liking noughts a lot, with it your shapeshifter doesn't suck on their own. I am testing trinket mage, I think I need a 3cc creature or 2cc to have more creatures for vial.
I am not liking birds cause they can be killed in response to you comboing.
The deck wants basics to be waste proof for shapeshifter, it is also good if you play back to basics in sb.

mana base

2 tropical island
4 fetch green
4 fetch blue
4 forest
4 island

4 brainstorm
4 survival
4 nought
4 stifle
4 aether vial
4 goyf
1 squee
1 akroma
1 phage
1 genesis
1 top
3 trinket mage
2 spell snare
4 volrath shapeshifter

TheLion
12-20-2008, 10:23 AM
Playing mostly basics is not really good I guess, especially because you need UU and very many GG for Survival.
Scryb Ranger or Quirion Ranger should be included to protect from Wasteland, and the only play Forest duals. (Though they are only good, if you play Birds, too)

I don't understand why you play 3 Trinket Mage. To get what? Aether Vial on turn 3? Top? Dreadnought, which you can get via Survival? I think they are not needed, at least not in your list.

adrieng
12-20-2008, 12:22 PM
Trinket mage is in test, he is not so bad it gets nought if survival is not in play. That makes your shapeshifter better and close to never useless. He is also there cause I need some more creatures for vial. I don't want to play cards such as quirion ranger which is quite bad on his own and only good when you have already won with survival in play. I have never had mana problems with this mana base cause i play aether vial as mana fixer. Also i play only two colours .If you don't have survival with a manabase without basics, shapeshifter is close to useless, they just have to keep a wasteland in play or a random removal for your birds. I really need more testing, I started testing about 1 week ago. If someone did a lot of testing with it, can he tells us more about the tier one matchups ?

TheLion
12-20-2008, 12:58 PM
If you need more creatures, then I'd rather play something like Harmonic Sliver (or Viridian Shaman in UG only version), Wall of Roots and so on... Or you expand your Mage-toolbox with cards like Grindstone (+ Painter), EE, Crypt...

Quirion Ranger is not at all a bard card. He seems week, but his main purpose is making mana and protect from Wasteland. He untaps Birds, returns an untapped land, which you can replay, which means he makes 2 mana. Since this deck is very mana intensive this is not bad at all and important to set up your combo fast enough. If you'd play Birds, you could replace a land for him.

AngryTroll
12-20-2008, 02:19 PM
The main question I ask: Why do you still need Volrath's Shapeshifter, if you don't have any tricks and/or the Phage kill with it.
Only for copying Goyfs and Dreadnoughts? It seems like too much effort, too keep the top card of your GY a copying-worth creature.

3 Tops seems to much for me. Tried Ponder instead? Or with Counterbalance?

15 creatures is really low for Survival...
2 Shriekmaw feels like if there is 1 too much.

Also in my build I often found, that 4 Dreadnought are too much, since they are too often dead (without Stifle) and can be tutored up, so I am currently testing with 3. Some Dreadstill lists play with 3, too.

Unfortunately it really feels if Dreadstill and Threshold had married... I'd really miss the "Oops I win with Phage" part.

Shapeshifter copies Dreadnaught, which is awesome. If your Shapeshifter is a 12/12, Phage only speeds up your win by a single turn, if that. It also copies Shriekmaw for an extra Terror effect.

In the early game, especially for making land drops, Ponder > Top; in the mid game with Survival, Ponder > Top for Force of Will, but in the mid game without Survival, Top >> Ponder. Ponder is certainly a justifyable choice, but Top is a game breaking spell (as is Survival).

I really like having two Shriekmaws. They're great to Survival up, work well with Shapeshifter (I've Evoked Shriekmaw on turn two and cast Shapeshifter turn three a couple of times), are great draws without Survival for Goyf beatdown, and have evasion. I won a ground stall game by giving Shapeshifter Fear, then making it a 12/12 after it got in unblocked.

15 Creatures is really low for Survival. If your opening hand has a Survival in it, you're pitching whatever creature you have, whether it's a Goyf, Shapeshifter, or Squee. It also makes topdecking Survival a little awkward. However, I want creatures that are going to be useful without Survival in play, unlike Phage and Akroma. You could still run Phage and Akroma, if you wanted, but you have to cut disruption spells.

4 Dreadnaught is a lot, especially with only 4 Stifle. However, remember Shapeshifter makes 6 ways to use Dreadnaught, and he does give Goyf at least +1/+1, sometimes +2/+2. Cutting it down to three does free up a slot, but now you need a creature. Wonder, probably.

That most recent list does seem to be a cross between Thresh and Dreadstill, which does feel a lot different from the original FEB. However, I think it does a much better job playing the game without Survival, and with Survival it can pump out a huge stream of Goyfs, then back them up with Dreadnaughts.

adrieng
12-20-2008, 02:45 PM
Ok I am now testing spellstutter sprite as a 4 off in the place of trinket mage and top. They are very good with survival and on their own also. I do think they need to be there.

fearphage
12-21-2008, 02:34 PM
You're taking the deck in a totally different direction which is not bad but I wouldn't call that deck FEB anymore.

The main thing that deck lacks is the ability to win in one turn (combo) and beat infinite life gain.

Shapeshifters also combo with dreadnoughts. Shapshifter followed by dreadnought is still an attacking 12/12. When I played FEB before adding dreadnought, i played only 2. As they have more cards to combo with here, I thought 3 were appropriate.

You want multiple shriekmaws and wonder because you are trying to play a longer game now. FEB is very much a combo deck. I personally want to go shapeshifter (with akroma on top) -> phage as soon as possible. On turn 4-5, very few decks can block akroma and all the trample damage so the game ends.

Again, let me remind you I am not putting down your suggestions in any way. I believe that you are now building a different deck with different focuses than FEB. Your deck is becoming more an aggro survival deck than anything else.

EDIT: I had the page open for a few days before posting. My bad. I see a lot of my thoughts have already been covered.

AngryTroll
12-21-2008, 08:26 PM
The combo win does let you win all at once, and from nowhere. It is also a little bit faster; with a perfect hand, you can win on turn three with a more traditional FEB hand that has some Land, Survival, Birds, Akroma, and Shapeshifter.

The list I posted is slower, but can go turn two Dreadnaught, which is just one turn slower than that FEB hand. It also has a better Goyf plan.

If you wanted to, you could cut the two Shriekmaws for a Phage and an Akroma, and cut some of the disruption for some Birds or something, but you add a couple of cards that are only good with the combo.

Pinder
12-21-2008, 11:23 PM
Just looking at the list, the whole Dreadnaught/Stifle thing just seems cool enough to be dangerous, if you catch my meaning. While Shapeshifter/Dreadnaught is a fine and viable combo, it seems that running 4 Dreadnaught is inefficient. Stifle is nice on its own I guess, but without some other sort of mana denial strategy, it doesn't seem like it would pull its own weight outside of getting tacked onto a Dreadnaught.

What if you cut the Stifles, and cut the Dreadnaught down to a 1- or 2-of as a survival critter to use with Shapeshifter? That would free up at least 6 slots for other things, possibly Counterbalance (or that Wonder you've been trying to find room for)? It would also give you room to run the 4th Top like a good player. Always the fourth Top.

AngryTroll
12-22-2008, 05:09 AM
Running the full compliment of Dreadnaughts and Stifles, as well as the Shriekmaws, gives the deck a much better shot against graveyard removal in games two and three. Plus, turn two Dreadnaught just beats a lot of hands.

If you drop Dreadnaughts down to two to be used as a Survival trick, you should just drop them entirely. Without Stifles, Akroma will be a better search target almost every time. Dreadnaught will be better against...a Sundering Titan, Darksteel Collosus, an Exhumed Akroma, some other really big reanimated flying creature...there aren't many times that you'd ever go find a Dreadnaught.

That leaves you doing something like this:
-4 Dreadnaught
-4 Stifles
(1 slot to make 60 cards instead of 61)
+4 Birds
+1 Wonder
+1 Phage
+1 Akroma
+1 Shapeshifter (somehow, not enough slots)
This gives you a better creature count for Survival (around 19 instead of 15), but the blue count is too low for Force, and you are much more dependent on the graveyard for the entire match.

I really like the list I posted back a page. You could cram a Phage and Akroma in there, possibly cutting some of the disruption (1 Shriekmaw, 1 Daze or Thoughtseize, the third Top), which does give you a way to win faster. You could even put in a third Shapeshifter, perhaps for a Stifle, giving you the same total number of ways to cheat in a Dreadnaught.

TheLion
12-22-2008, 07:59 AM
Pinder is right. I think 4 Dreadnought are too much. I often found myself having 1-2 Dreadnoughts in hand, while not having Stifle. If you have Survival active you can just go into the combo, and not go the Dreadnought/Shapeshifter route.
And the main purpose of Stifle/Nought is to have an alternative graveyard-independent win-condition, so the Shapeshifter/Nought route isn't that good, too, also considering, that it is still fragile and protection in form of counterspells, won't work, since Shapeshifter is a 0/1 then again.
So the only good plan is to go with Stifle and I think 4 Dreadnoughts are too much for 4 Stifle, considering that you use Stifle for other things or FoW sometimes, too. 2-3 Dreadnoughts seem to be a good number.

I also tinkered around with 1 Painter + 1 Grindstone (together with 2 Enlightened Tutor and maybe 1 Trinket Mage). It worked, but wasn't sure, if it is the right way. Maybe I should retry it again... I only tested it for a few games.

@Troll: you could cut lands for Birds. And I don't get why Wonder is helpful.

adrieng
12-22-2008, 08:43 AM
I don't agree 4 noughts is the right number :
- if you play vial and have 2 noughts in hand you can vial one in resp to the other coming into play.
- if you play 4 shapeshifter, you can discard one to it.
- You have also 4 stifle and 4 survival to use them.

AngryTroll
12-22-2008, 02:53 PM
Wonder ends giant Goyf stalls. For example, I was playing against Meathooks, and my Shriekmaws had no targets on his side of the board because of Crystalline, all four Goyfs and Tog were in play, and I still couldn't beat his army of Slivers.

I ended up finally sticking a Shapeshifter, using Tog to make it a Shriekmaw, swinging in, then making it a Dreadnaught. The game came down to a race for me to resolve a Shapeshifter (he was saving all of his removal and counters for them; I had Genesis but was light on land) or a pair of Dreadnaughts before he found a Winged Sliver. All I would have had to do is find a Wonder to crush for 20 in the air with the Goyfs I had.

Again, a quick summary of why I'm running 4 Dreadnaughts and 4 Stifles:
4 Stifles, 2 Shapeshifters, and 4 Survivals to try to avoid hand clogg-age
Graveyard-independent alternative win condition
Turn two Dreadnaught does indeed beat a lot of decks, and even a lot of hands of decks that shouldn't lose to it
Making Shapeshifter into a 12/12 and beating with it isn't as fast as Akroma and Phage (possibly three turns slower, in some weird cases), but usually is just one turn slower.

The disadvantages:
No instant Phage win
Creature light for Survival
Card disadvantage machine (Dreadnaught + Stifle -> Smother)

Zach Tartell
01-22-2009, 12:31 PM
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t119/lonelybaritone/pictures241.jpg


Also, do you think progenetis might be worth tossing onto a shapeshifter?
I may or may not simply be making a post to show the picture of a Full English Breakfast I may or may not have eaten when I last made it over the pond.

So what? I never check my camera. Big whoop, wanna fight about it?

TheLion
02-24-2009, 04:37 AM
Yes, actually why not. With all the discussion about Natural Order going around, especially in Survival decks, let's try it in this decks, too.

This is my current list:

// 19
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Island


// 21
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wall of Roots
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Genesis
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Progenitus


// 20
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Daze
3 Natural Order

I've cutted the Stifle/Noughts down in order to squeeze in Natural Order and Progenitus.

I replaced Birds with Noble Hiearch (and cutted Psychatog), though I get the feeling that the Exalted is just win more and not needed.

The big question is: Is Natural Order into Progenitus better than Stiflenought?

Currently I play three paths to victory, and I fear it is a little too much. Doing a little of everything, but nothing good, might be bad.

I play 18 blue cards, which is quite the lower limit for FoW, so I can't really cut blue cards.

Yes, no Tarmogoyf, because I still don't like him in a combo deck. I rather play Wall of Roots because I feel the mana is more important to set up your combo.

The good thing is, that you can shuffle Progenitus back into the library with Survival and Brainstorm.

Eddie
02-24-2009, 04:55 AM
The big question is: Is Natural Order into Progenitus better than Stiflenought?

No. You can use dreadnoughts in the survival - shapeshifter plan. Progenitus is dead without natural order. As is natural order without progenitus. You're trying to fit an extra combo that doesn't work with the other cards in the deck.

TheLion
02-24-2009, 05:52 AM
No. You can use dreadnoughts in the survival - shapeshifter plan. Progenitus is dead without natural order. As is natural order without progenitus. You're trying to fit an extra combo that doesn't work with the other cards in the deck.

True words, but:
- Dreadnought is killed easily.
- Shapeshafter-Dreadnought is very fragile. (Graveyard Hate, Wasteland, Lightning Bolt on your 1/1s...) + is killed as easily as the normal Dreadnought directly in play.
- For the Stiflenought plan you need both cards in hand. Natural Order is nearly a 1-card combo. If you don't have a green creature, you can Survival one.
- If you have Survival, you usually don't go the Shapeshifter-Dreadnought plan, but kill immediately with Phage. Progenitus is rather an (almost guaranteed) alternative, graveyard-independent wincondition
- Dreadnought is dead without Shapeshifter or Stifle, too, and Progenitus can still pitch to FoW ;-)
- The Stiflenought plan dies to Chalice and Counterbalance.



As is natural order without progenitus


Natural Order is only dead without a green creature. You don't need Progenitus in your hand.
It could also put Empyrial Archangel into play, if you feel like.

I guess, it would be a nice task, to really evaluate both plans in this deck, since both have valid arguments.

Eddie
02-24-2009, 06:15 AM
- For the Stiflenought plan you need both cards in hand. Natural Order is nearly a 1-card combo. If you don't have a green creature, you can Survival one.

It is not, it's a two card combo, whether that card is Progenitus or Survival. And last time I checked you can also survival dreadnought so it's the same thing. Also Stifle is U, while Natural Survival is 2GG.


Natural Order is only dead without a green creature. You don't need Progenitus in your hand.
It could also put Empyrial Archangel into play, if feel like.

Which you are not playing. I mean look at the green creature you play. Do you really want to use natural order to get a wall into play. Natural order is more dead than stifle.


- Dreadnought is dead without Shapeshifter or Stifle, too, and Progenitus can still pitch to FoW ;-)

And I can pitch my 4 stifles to FoW. Realy the pitching to FoW is an old argument and you can play 1000 of other blue cards instead (e.g. psychatog). By pitching Progenitus to FoW you have 3 dead cards in your deck.

These are just my thoughts without testing though so don't let that stop you from testing.

Valdez
02-24-2009, 06:17 AM
It is not, it's a two card combo, whether that card is Progenitus or Survival. And last time I checked you can also survival dreadnought so it's the same thing. Also Stifle is U, while Natural Survival is 2GG.
Natural Order
Sorcery, 2GG (4)
As an additional cost to play Natural Order, sacrifice a green creature.
Search your library for a green creature card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.1

TheLion
02-24-2009, 06:27 AM
Yes, as Valdez pointed out, I think you confuse Natural Order with Show and Tell.
You don't need Survival or Progenitus, in order to make Natural Order work. Just a green creature, which you have ~8-9 of, and if not you could survival one. That's why I consider it nearly a 1 card combo.

Eddie
02-24-2009, 06:34 AM
Yes, I was confused by the

If you don't have a green creature, you can Survival one.

Doesn't make much difference though.

TheLion
02-24-2009, 07:36 AM
Well with both plans, you have either Dreadnought comboing with 8 other cards (Stifle/Shapeshifter), or you have Natural Order comboing with 8 other cards (green creatures).
So I guess the odds of bringing either Dreadnought or Progenitus into play are the same.

Dreadnought has those disadvantages mentioned above though, while Natural Order is about 1 turn slower, but takes fewer slots and is more flexible in the choice of creatures (Empyrial Archangel), and a more garanteed win.

Skeggi
09-18-2009, 02:55 AM
Huge N E C R O...

Why, hello there buddy!

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/od/132.jpg

I think it might be good... :wink:

sco0ter
09-18-2009, 02:59 AM
You should have necroed the UB Reanimator thread instead...
I can't think off any applications in FEB. Entomb is always the top card of your graveyard, after you searched the card with it.

Eddie
09-18-2009, 03:07 AM
Huge N E C R O...

Why, hello there buddy!

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/od/132.jpg

I think it might be good... :wink:

Not really. Remember Entomb ends on top of the card you searched.

Skeggi
09-18-2009, 03:13 AM
Aye... you're right. Ah well, this will stay to be a sub-par deck then I suppose :frown:

Mr. Fix it
09-18-2009, 12:14 PM
why not combine it with fossil find?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=49688

im sure your graveyard has fetches and other cards in it from building up to getting out shapeshifter, so the random return shouldn't be a problem.

sco0ter
09-18-2009, 12:28 PM
And then? You have a nicely ordered graveyard with an Entombed Phage on top. Play a Shapeshifter, wait a turn, and attack?
That's too much effort for nothing. Even if you'd Entomb for Hypnox.

Mr. Fix it
09-18-2009, 12:53 PM
And then? You have a nicely ordered graveyard with an Entombed Phage on top. Play a Shapeshifter, wait a turn, and attack?
That's too much effort for nothing. Even if you'd Entomb for Hypnox.

Pretty much ya wait a turn for shifter to loss summoning sickness. less u can gear out a hellkite on top for a lot of shinanigans.

It might be fair to say entomb breakfast might have potential for a different plays that would set it apart from breakfast as we have known it up till now.

sco0ter
09-18-2009, 01:21 PM
It might be fair to say entomb breakfast might have potential for a different plays that would set it apart from breakfast as we have known it up till now.

I am very skeptical about this approach. It is a 3 card "combo" (Entomb, Shapeshifter, Fossil Find), that costs 1UUBG and only puts a Hellkite "into play" (as Shapeshifter) on turn 4.

Straight UB Reanimator is the better deck for Entomb.

Mr. Fix it
09-18-2009, 02:08 PM
look at it this way though. theres the easy way of doing things and the challenging way of doing things.

breakfast entomb would be the challenging way. You do raise a point this would be mana awkward to play. but when you look at doing it solely with survival engine its fairly mana heavy. this on the other hand isn't so heavy. enemy fetches make any color spread problems almost history except for mana screwed.

it could work but your right u/b reanimation is just much more streamlined, the only real thing breakfast has going for it is its not solely rooted to playing just shapeshifter. It can hybrid in other combos and deck attacks, like stifle nought. where as you can be graveyard hated out of the game in reanimator.

psly4mne
09-18-2009, 05:36 PM
Fossil Find is another one of those things called "spells" that have a curious tendency to end up on top of your graveyard after they resolve.

Mr. Fix it
09-18-2009, 11:28 PM
dang i'm bumbed now if thats the case. i thought u could just put it on the bottom as part of the effect.

But some how it still makes sense as for the same reason entomb would be on top of the card it searched for.

Philipp2293
10-20-2009, 11:53 AM
So, here's another approach I came across today, I didn't want to start a new thread so I just put it in here.

Land(19)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
3 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures(23)

4 Noble Hierarch
2 Quirion Ranger

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

3 Volraths Shapeshifter
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Phage the Untouchable

1 Squee,Goblin Nabob
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Cemetery Puca
1 Trinket Mage
1 Painters Servant


Other Spells(18)

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vision Charm
3 Senseis Divining Top
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grindstone

This deck adds the Painterstone-kill. Some comments on my choices:

2 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts are all I could squeez and, but we have Survival,E. Tutor and Trinket Mage to get it.
1 Cemetery Puca serves as 5. Vision Charm, and is tutorable via Survival.
4 Vision Charms are better than Stifle in this case, as the also protect Painters Servant and Grindstone.
1 Trinket Mage: Fetches Dreadnoughts, Grindstone and Top.
3 Divining Top: Helps find the combo pieces.
2 E.Tutor: They have so many targets in the deck: Survival,Dreadnought,Top,Painterstone.

Not much testing yet, any comments would be appreciated.

sco0ter
10-20-2009, 01:22 PM
I don't want to miss Brainstorm in this deck. And if you play Brainstorm, you should have enough blue count for FoW, too.

I found SDT always to mana intensive in this deck.

Imo, Qasali Pridemange > Wickerbough Elder.

You have 2 cards (1 Painter + 1 Grindstone), which benefit from Vision Charm. It's only 2 cards. I think Stifle is still the better card.

Cemetery Puca, does nearly the same as Shapeshifter in this deck. (He becomes Dreadnought), but I think you should play the 4th Shapeshifter instead, since it fulfills more roles.

AlterEgo
10-20-2009, 03:27 PM
Fossil Find is another one of those things called "spells" that have a curious tendency to end up on top of your graveyard after they resolve.

Plus: Fossil Find MIGHT just (at random!) return the card you wanted place on top.

Philipp2293
10-27-2009, 03:06 PM
Current state of my FEB testing and trying all kind of ideas.

The current package which I think works great is: A survival build with Aether Vials, and then a package of: 1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner+1 Volraths Shapeshifter + Akroma, Angel of Wrath + 1 Phage the Untouchable.

With Survival and Vial@3 you can more or less win out of nowhere. End of opponent turn get Kira and Vial her(/him?) in, in your turn get Shifter, Vial in and use mana to Change Shifter -> Akroma -> Phage.
If tested this quite a time now on MWS, and this is really where you can kill your opponent completely out of the blue. This version of the combo is counter safe and forces your oponent to have 2xremoval on hand. Only cause of concern would be a wasteland.

The package is also rather small, with 3 slot dedicated to the combo, and Kira, which is not so bad on it's own.

From this basic package you can either build more protection in to make sure the combo comes through, so B for discard or FOW/Daze/Spellstutter Sprite(/Counter Top?).

Or, what I have tried, is to build this as Survival/Combo-independent as possible, with Stiflenought Package,4 Goyfs, Wonder, 3 Pridemage, 3 Rhox War Monks and Rafiq.

Any input would be appreciated, but I think this is a very compact combo which doesn't use too many slots and really can win out of nowhere.

Phoenix Ignition
10-27-2009, 05:31 PM
I'm wondering what the reason for Akroma is in there? If it's just for haste and evasion I'd rather use Nether Traitor, since in builds running black to protect the combo, he's playable, and awesome with Cabal Therapy. Also people couldn't chump block with flyers.

Philipp2293
10-27-2009, 06:49 PM
I guess it is still a legacy of the combat-damage-on-the-stack-ruling.
But I don't see that many alternatives, and I don't play black in my FEB.

Pastorofmuppets
10-31-2009, 08:58 AM
is anyone trying Saprazzan Heir? With 4 mana open, you could pitch the heir to Shapeshifter during Declare Attackers, and you opponent sort of has to block it or risk getting Phage'd. When the Shifter is blocked you draw your 3, and you should be open to something to pitch so your Shifter survives.

Illissius
10-31-2009, 10:15 AM
That's cool, but what's even awesomer is something they, you know, can't block, so they have to either block it or get Phaged. Except they can't block it.

Shanghi Knights
11-01-2009, 08:17 PM
i'll never understand why Saprazzan Heir isn't played in merfolks (i'l drop that line in the merfolk forums but it be like a powerkeg directed at me)

anyhow though best bet is still inkshooter + phage to = crying opponent.

chokin
11-01-2009, 10:13 PM
For the Entomb ending on top of the creature you want, just run Relic of Progenitus and use the tap on yourself.

Pastorofmuppets
11-01-2009, 10:37 PM
i'll never understand why Saprazzan Heir isn't played in merfolks (i'l drop that line in the merfolk forums but it be like a powerkeg directed at me)

anyhow though best bet is still inkshooter + phage to = crying opponent.

It has no synergy and is as small as our Cursecatchers, which are a million times more useful. Back on the subject, can the Phage ability be Stifled? If so, isn't an alternate win condition in order?

Shanghi Knights
11-02-2009, 12:25 AM
It has no synergy and is as small as our Cursecatchers, which are a million times more useful. Back on the subject, can the Phage ability be Stifled? If so, isn't an alternate win condition in order?

as far as back up plans are concerned, the deck does need a case of stifle nought (only problem is a-hole store owners jacked up dreanaughts price)

Philipp2293
11-02-2009, 05:29 AM
Good to see this deck gets some talk. At the moment I'm back from a more AggroBant approach to a version with Stiflenought. Kira is really MVP here, as she protects Dreadnoughts/Shifters etc.

Lands(19)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Forest
1 Island

Creatures(23)

Mana
4 Noble Hierarch

Beaters
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Utility/Protection
2 Kira,Great Glass Spinner
1 Squee,Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

Combo
3 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Akroma,Angel of Wrath
1 Phage, the untouchable
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers

Other Spells (18)

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Stifle

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Aether Vials

Aether Vials work great here, cause they cheat Shapeshifters/Loyal Retainers/Kira past countermagic, and allow us to kill suprisingly.

A more aggro approach would be -2 Ponder -1 Genesis + 3 Lorescale Coatl, to abuse Vial@3 more.

Pastorofmuppets
11-02-2009, 09:26 AM
I would think to cut Noughts to 3 and run the deck's original kill condition in that 4th slot (can't recall the card's name for the life of me).

Philipp2293
11-02-2009, 09:45 AM
Phage? I'm running her ATM.......or do you mean Flowstone Hellion?

Pastorofmuppets
11-02-2009, 11:57 AM
Phage? I'm running her ATM.......or do you mean Flowstone Hellion?

There you go. If you're running Survival you don't really need 4 Noughts anyway...

Philipp2293
11-02-2009, 12:29 PM
Yeah, I agree with you, 'Nought is down to 3 ATM.

Pastorofmuppets
11-02-2009, 12:56 PM
I would also suggest running a 1-of artifact/enchant buster (Viridian Zealot or Wickerbough Elder)

Philipp2293
11-02-2009, 01:00 PM
Yeah, in one of my earlier versions I ran a more aggro approach with plenty of Qasali Pridemages. At the moment I'm comparing the 2 approaches (More Cantrips/Focused on combo VS More Aggro Version).
K. Grip is a minimum of 3 in the SB anyway.

Shanghi Knights
11-02-2009, 07:43 PM
retainer is an interesting choice. More use to using reya, but either way your getting the same effect.

To answer that question earlier, i'm pretty sure they can be stifled.

When I say that I am imagining your recurring her though some means into play, which i'm not entirely sure why you would want to do that in the first place at all?

kira is a good at big creature protection but i can't help but think sylvan safekeeper or mother of runes being just as good due to being cheaper. (only trouble would be decks packing a lot of burn or zap to get either of them to mess up the graveyard stack.)

Philipp2293
11-03-2009, 02:03 AM
Retainer is mostly used for getting Iona into play, that's often gg. The main use of Kira is when I get Vial@3 and a Survival in game, opponents EOT, get Kira, vial her in, in my turn get Shapeshifter, vial it in, and use my mana to go Akroma -> Phage -> kill.
I'm going to try out Mother of Runes.

sco0ter
11-03-2009, 07:48 AM
Glad to see some discussion here again.

Your posted deck, looks really good, very similar too mine. (Philipp2293)
I'd try 2 Enlightened Tutor.

4 Dreadnought is definitively too much. I run 3.


1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers

is it really worth the slots? Have you tried Hypnox? It is gg, too.

Genesis maybe should retain in the SB. This deck does not want to get into lategame.
I'd still run 1 Pridmage main, instead of the second Kira.

Philipp2293
11-03-2009, 08:08 AM
@ Scooter: Could you post your list here?

Agreed on Dreadnought(4 is too much) and Genesis(currently in the SB).
Will test the tutors, don't like them too much on paper......I don't want to cut a Kira, as she is still pretty good if I randomly draw into her. Also agreed on the Pridemage, he has to be put in at least once(though ATM I'm running more of them).

On the topic of Loyal Retainers: They are another way of getting Akroma, if it's already buried deep in the yard. From there on Iona was an option, as you don't mind discarding her which is a advantage over Hypnox, which hasn't any merits if you have to discard him early. I use the Akroma/Phage kill more often so far, but Retainers/Iona is a good diversification, and so far I wouldn't cut it.

neckfire
11-03-2009, 09:35 AM
Good to see this deck gets some talk. At the moment I'm back from a more AggroBant approach to a version with Stiflenought. Kira is really MVP here, as she protects Dreadnoughts/Shifters etc.

Lands(19)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Forest
1 Island

Creatures(23)

Mana
4 Noble Hierarch

Beaters
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Utility/Protection
2 Kira,Great Glass Spinner
1 Squee,Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

Combo
3 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Akroma,Angel of Wrath
1 Phage, the untouchable
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers

Other Spells (18)

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Stifle

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Aether Vials

Aether Vials work great here, cause they cheat Shapeshifters/Loyal Retainers/Kira past countermagic, and allow us to kill suprisingly.

A more aggro approach would be -2 Ponder -1 Genesis + 3 Lorescale Coatl, to abuse Vial@3 more.

i dont get how you can call this breakfest still...there is no breakfast combo in the deck.

Pastorofmuppets
11-03-2009, 09:41 AM
Glad to see some discussion here again.

Your posted deck, looks really good, very similar too mine. (Philipp2293)
I'd try 2 Enlightened Tutor.

4 Dreadnought is definitively too much. I run 3.


1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Loyal Retainers

is it really worth the slots? Have you tried Hypnox? It is gg, too.

Genesis maybe should retain in the SB. This deck does not want to get into lategame.
I'd still run 1 Pridmage main, instead of the second Kira.

I was actually about to suggest Hypnox, but the only problem is you don't get the CIP ability from vialing it in (you're not actually PLAYING it from your hand you're putting it into play. I call it the "the reason Myojins didn't break sneak attack" clause)
Hell, if you're running Hypnox, why not run a Myojin? (Life's Web or Seeing Winds)

Philipp2293
11-03-2009, 10:18 AM
i dont get how you can call this breakfest still...there is no breakfast combo in the deck.

Shapeshifter + Akroma + Phage

sco0ter
11-03-2009, 10:38 AM
I was actually about to suggest Hypnox, but the only problem is you don't get the CIP ability from vialing it in (you're not actually PLAYING it from your hand you're putting it into play. I call it the "the reason Myojins didn't break sneak attack" clause)
Hell, if you're running Hypnox, why not run a Myojin? (Life's Web or Seeing Winds)

I know that it does not work with Vial.
Myojins are bad, except maybe the red one. But Hypnox is still better than it, due to evasion and better stats.

sco0ter
11-03-2009, 10:43 AM
i dont get how you can call this breakfest still...there is no breakfast combo in the deck.

This deck is called as it is since... forever... since 10 years or so. (1999/6th edition).
Anyway, what is a breakfast combo for you??


Many combo decks were named after a breakfast (Froot Loops, FEB, Pebbles, Golden Grahams, Trix, Scrambled Eggs, ...) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14137)

Solaran_X
11-03-2009, 11:00 AM
This deck is called as it is since... forever... since 10 years or so. (1999/6th edition).
Anyway, what is a breakfast combo for you??


Many combo decks were named after a breakfast (Froot Loops, FEB, Pebbles, Golden Grahams, Trix, Scrambled Eggs, ...) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14137)
I think he's thinking of Cephalid Breakfast, which is a far newer "Breakfast" combo deck. Full English Breakfast is definitely the original Breakfast deck.

sco0ter
11-05-2009, 12:53 PM
@ Scooter: Could you post your list here?


This was my latest list I worked on placed 13th with it in Iserlohn in August 2009.

// Lands
2 Island
3 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah

// Combo
1 Flowstone Hellion
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Hypnox
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter

// Utility creatures
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Wall of Roots

// Search and Protection
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Ponder

Sideboard:
1 Genesis
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Platinum Angel
1 Trygon Predator
3 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip

The SB was thrown together rather quickly. I never really tested the deck vs. certain decks. E.g. I thought Teferi might be good against Landstill/Permission decks, but I don't know if it would work. I just saw Teferi in another deck on deckcheck.

After the tournament, I wanted to make following changes:
-2 Spell Snare (too narrow)
-1 Birds of Paradise (I played him only due to flying, in case there would be a situation, where I can fly over my opponent with Shifter-Bird and then phage him, or if there would be a situation, where I would need to chump block Tombstalker (with Genesis), but Exalted is probably more often useful).
+1 Ponder
+1 Noble Hierarch (see above)
+1 Gilded Drake (I really missed creature removal, preferable tutorable and on-color.)

The third Ponder could also be the second Wall of Roots, since I often could not go off, due to one single missing mana :-(

No Tarmogoyf you ask? Yes.
a) I had none.
b) I think this deck works fine without. It's a combo deck.

No Akroma? Yes.
a) M10 rules made her trample + haste pointless. So I decided to go the classic route with Flowstone Hellion + Dreadnought, which worked quite as well, too. I kept the Phage though.

I am very confident with the mana base. I never missed a Tundra. I want every non-basic land to produce green mana for Survival.

Since then I never really worked on this deck, because I am pissed from M10 rules.:mad:

Pastorofmuppets
11-06-2009, 09:32 PM
congrats on the finish.

Maveric78f
11-09-2009, 02:53 AM
Yesterday, FEB did at least top4 (I don't know the results of the semi-finals) at the GP Paris legacy side-event with 169 players. During the rounds it did 6-0 with only 1 lost game. Then it did 2 intentional draws to the final. I've seen it win 2-0 against Eva Green in the sixth round (because I dropped at 2 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss) and it was impressive. I also know that it won against Ugr counterbalance Thresh in quarter finals.

First game against Eva Green:
EG wins the toss and starts swamp go.
FEB first turn land vial.
EG land second turn sinkhole.
FEB vial@1 fetch go.
EG land shade.
FEB vial@2 trop crack fetch on trop survival go.
EG land shade attacks no block +2/+2, tarmo.
FEB vial@3 fetch on taiga tutors anger with cephalid, tutors dreadnought (I think that it could have been a better choice, Reiver Demon for instance, even if the coming into play wouldn't have worked) with anger, vials shapeshifter, tutors witness with dreadnought, attacks => Snuff Out.
EG land, attacks for 10 (5+5), keeps BB open.
FEB (topdecks FoW) lands trop, tutors shapeshifter with witness, vials shapeshifter which regrowthes cephalid, tutors Phage with cephalid. Discards Phage to Cephalid, attacks for the win? No, EG plays edict. FoW on Edict. The last card in hand of FEB is a creature which he discards for Psychatog. He discards Psychatog to tutor something else. He uses Psychatog to put Phage back on top and wins.

Second game against Eva Green:
EG starts dark ritual Hymn (which hits 1 of 2 lands), thoughtseize on the single vial. FEB still has BS in hand.
Then a lot of turns where FEB finally finds his lands and EG does not find a clock (after the game he'll reveal that he had 3 leylines in hand and only 3 lands in play during some crucial turn). FEB plays vial and right after EG finds Stalker which he can play. It hits twice the FEB player but he finally plays survival with only 1 green open. EG finally finds its 4th land but chooses to attack before playing leyline (which was a mistake), FEB discards Reiver Demon to tutor Shapeshifter, he vials shapeshifter blocks and kills Stalker. As the EG player knows he's going to lose next turn if he does not play leyline he plays it (his only out was to find edict at this point. But with survival in play and vial @3, FEB vials witness and plays tarmogoyf at his turn and it's GG.

These games were really a blast to watch.

Edit: the list he played

1 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Anger
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Reiver Demon => he usually plays Myojin of Cleansing Fire but the judges did not accept the combo with shapeshifter (the ruling was not clear before)
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Psychatog
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Trygon Predator
3 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Æther Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle

SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Diamond Valley
SB: 1 Hypnox

sco0ter
11-09-2009, 03:59 AM
Yesterday, FEB did at least top4 (I don't know the results of the semi-finals) at the GP Paris legacy side-event with 169 players.


That is really great news!! Insane! Gratulations!



Edit: the list he played

1 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Anger
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Reiver Demon => he usually plays Myojin of Cleansing Fire but the judges did not accept the combo with shapeshifter (the ruling was not clear before)
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Psychatog
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Trygon Predator
3 Volrath's Shapeshifter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Æther Vial
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle

SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Diamond Valley
SB: 1 Hypnox


Maybe the Anger version (I think it's called Full Irish Breakfast) is the way to go, now that Akroma's only relevant ability is haste (with M10 rules).
On the other hand: Every haste creature would do the same job during the combo.
Vial played nice appearently. I (still) play Noble Hierarch though. Dont know what's better in that slot. The Bant Survival plays Hierarch.

No black source + Psychatog seems a little bit whacky...!?



he usually plays Myojin of Cleansing Fire but the judges did not accept the combo with shapeshifter (the ruling was not clear before)


ridiculous. I am pretty sure it works. What's the difference, between it, and Reiver Demon, rules-wise?

Maveric78f
11-09-2009, 04:16 AM
ridiculous. I am pretty sure it works. What's the difference, between it, and Reiver Demon, rules-wise?
Reiver is a trigger, Myojin is a static ability. First I thought it was not working because "as" it's coming into play, it's not in play yet. But finally, it was not that simple but gavin the rule guru -or even the rule maker- who was at the event ruled it against the combo. That's funny because he would have probably lost the second game against EG with myojin in its place.

Philipp2293
11-09-2009, 04:23 AM
Was it Alexandre Blanchard who did this finish? I played with him a little over MWS on saturday and we talked quite a lot about FEB and our different builds.
If it is so, and you have contact with him, tell him congratz from Philipp2293.

Philipp2293
11-09-2009, 04:27 AM
Vial played nice appearently. I (still) play Noble Hierarch though. Dont know what's better in that slot. The Bant Survival plays Hierarch.




If I had to choose between both of them, I'd definitely go with Vials. They are so great in FEB.

Maveric78f
11-09-2009, 04:50 AM
Was it Alexandre Blanchard who did this finish? I played with him a little over MWS on saturday and we talked quite a lot about FEB and our different builds.
If it is so, and you have contact with him, tell him congratz from Philipp2293.

That's him.

Edit: he lost in final so he's 2nd on a 169 tournament (exact number to precise, some said 160+ others 156 but it's around this number) with a record of 8 wins 1 loss and 2 IDs.

Philipp2293
01-27-2010, 06:17 AM
So is still anybody working with this deck? I changed quite a bit from my last version, as I dropped the white splash, now I'm running GUr.

Current List is:

4 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Spellstutter Sprite

3 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Trygon Predator
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Aether Vial

SB:

3 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierce
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Propaganda

The elvish spirit guides are there in the place of the Noble Hierarchs, as they allow to play around Daze and more important, they enable Turn 1 Survival against non-blue decks. If not needed, they can be pitched. The pridemages are replaced with Trygon, as with Anger in the grave he nearly has the same effect for the cost. The sprites are a testing object, as they are pitchable to Force AND Survival and provide protection additional to Kira, and they don't land in the grave while comboing.

Any input? I'm not sure if propaganda is the right slot in the SB against aggro, any other suggestions?

Maveric78f
01-27-2010, 06:47 AM
What is Kira for? You can't use it to protect the Shapeshifter. I also think that you'd better play brainstorm instead of ESG. Protects also against discard, helps you to find your mana or creatures too. It makes the deck less explosive though, but in general it's a better card adn it helps you to play FoW. And finally, I think it's dangerous not to play any Psychatog and/or wrath creature such as Reiver Demon, at least in SB.

sco0ter
01-27-2010, 08:13 AM
Interesting how fast you changed your deck from UGwr (just posted on mtg-forum.de) to UGr...

My experience with Spellstutter Sprite isn't that good. Therefore I dropped it again. A casual deck, which runs mostly 4cc spells like Yavimaya Ants defeated me at the kitchen table quite easily... That was frustrating...

ESG... hm? I'd rather have the Hierarchs here.

Oh, and Windswept Heaths should become Wooded Foothills.

What I found during my testing (with my similar version), that you run out of gas very quickly, if you don't resolve Survival. What I missed was some card draw, or just some card advantage cards, like Kitchen Finks.

@Maverick: Of course does Kira protect Shapeshifter. Why shouldn't it? Of couse you cannot use it via Vial or Shapeshifter's ability in response to a removal spell, but else, it works.
And yes, Brainstorm is better than ESG. Or Hierarchs.

Maveric78f
01-27-2010, 08:20 AM
I meant that Kira could not be used to protect Shapeshifter with survival. You have to play it first.

Philipp2293
01-27-2010, 08:57 AM
@ Scooter: Yes, after writing my post on Mtgforum I played around a bit and tried what I could do with a UGr version.
The ESG und Sprites are currently testing. I fear, with Dreadnought + Stifle, the Guides are another source of card disadvantage that the deck can't handle....I'm quite sure that they have to go for BS, but I have to do further tests before having a final result.
Windswept Heaths = Wooded Foothills, that was a mistake.

Lhet
02-14-2010, 07:12 PM
I wonder if Novablast wurm should take over the reiver/myojin slot. It's potentially slower, but repeatable and doesn't require a hardcast shapeshifter. Haven't tested it, but it seems like it might be potentially correct.

sco0ter
02-15-2010, 04:20 AM
I considered the Wurm, too, but I already question the slot of Reiver Demon. I haven't tested the Wurm, but Reiver Demon looks still better, even in the Anger version.

kitsunewarlock
02-22-2010, 06:59 PM
There was one of these are PT-San Diego. It was my first time playing against such a deck so it was quite interesting. The person in question used Lu Bu to get Phage through--seems pretty good since it gives Shape shifter Haste and Horsemanship.

Kangaxx
02-23-2010, 10:02 AM
There was one of these are PT-San Diego. It was my first time playing against such a deck so it was quite interesting. The person in question used Lu Bu to get Phage through--seems pretty good since it gives Shape shifter Haste and Horsemanship.

Is Lu Bu better than Cephalid Inkshrouder though? We're also already running Anger.

rufus
02-23-2010, 10:38 AM
Is Lu Bu better than Cephalid Inkshrouder though? We're also already running Anger.

Seems that if you're running anger, you might as well use Progenitus.

Philipp2293
02-23-2010, 11:04 AM
Do you mean progenitus as target for shifter? Doesn't work, he doesn't stay in the GY( or doesn't even go there, not sure about the exact wording). Or do you mean the inclusion of NOgenitus? This is discussed in the Next Level Breakfast thread.

sco0ter
02-23-2010, 11:05 AM
Is Lu Bu better than Cephalid Inkshrouder though? We're also already running Anger.

It saves you one slot. That's the real only advantage. But I doubt it is worth it.

Inkshrouder gets around Maze of Ith and let's you play mind tricks with your opponent. "Sword my Nought-Shapeshifter? In response I discard Inkshrouder and discard Phage. gg.".

Anger is really good in this deck. it gives all your creatures haste (especially hasted Dreadnoughts are fun), and it doesn't require it to be the top card, to go into the combo.

Was it at a Sideevent in San Diego? I'd be curious if one could support us with a decklist.

Philipp2293
02-23-2010, 11:08 AM
It saves you one slot. That's the real only advantage. But I doubt it is worth it.



It could also help avoiding a red splash, if you only splash for Anger. But I'm on your side, Anger/Inkshrouder works fine.

Sims
02-23-2010, 12:24 PM
I would consider Lu Bu more for an angerless/redless version. The version I've started testing looks more like a hybrid of this and Survival Bant, Cephalid is still really good in that list, but there are times where you resolve the shifter and have enough mana to just go for the lu bu win that turn, and then there are games where you really want to have the unblockability/shroud of the cephalid. I could see a red-less list running both, personally.