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zander1
11-24-2007, 01:30 PM
Hi guys, yesterday I got this deck idea and wanted to know what you think about it:

Lands:
3x Swamp
3x Mountain
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstainde Mire
4x Polluted Delta

Creatures:
4x Nezumi Shortfang
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Dark Confidant
2x Grim Lavamancer

Spells:
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Price of Progress

Others:
4x The Rack

SB:
I haven't thought already about it but I think there will be maybe Leylines of Lifeforce and artifact/enchantment removal. Any ideas?

The idea is to let the opponent discard their best cards, to destroy their creatures and to finish with a rack or a POP. Dark Confidant is just awesome in the lategame when he lets you draw more disruption for your rack, some finishing burn or other creatures. He also can't make more than 2 damage for each revealed card. Because of its cheap spells this deck needs only 18 lands.
I already tested it against Pox, TES and other combo decks. It is awesome against combo and not bad against Pox.

ANY COMMENTS/ADVICE APPRECIATED!!!

Cavius The Great
11-24-2007, 02:19 PM
You could probably benefit from Terminate. I'd probably replace Price of Progress with them. I also think that there is a thread with a decklist along the same lines. Maybe you should PM Galroth for some ideas since he's working on a very similiar deck.

Nihil Credo
11-24-2007, 02:21 PM
My first contribution would be to point out that lots of discard + lots of burn is not a very good idea. This because "lots of burn" + "stuff that does not deal damage" goes contrary to the very idea of direct damage aggro.

With all that being said, Ensnaring Bridge could turn this into a playable deck: all your spells are cheap, and except for Confidant, none of your win conditions require the attack phase. You also have the tools to make them discard Krosan Grips and the like in advance, leaving them to hope for a topdeck. Besides, you need a way other than Thoughtseize to handle fatties.

A couple minor point to flesh this out: switch the Shortfang and the Lavamancer numbers (GL is just plain the better card, you have enough discard, you can easily feed GL, and 1B every turn isn't cheap); and Leylines of Lifeforce are almost useless - try those of the Void instead.

zander1
11-24-2007, 02:51 PM
My first contribution would be to point out that lots of discard + lots of burn is not a very good idea. This because "lots of burn" + "stuff that does not deal damage" goes contrary to the very idea of direct damage aggro.

With all that being said, Ensnaring Bridge could turn this into a playable deck: all your spells are cheap, and except for Confidant, none of your win conditions require the attack phase. You also have the tools to make them discard Krosan Grips and the like in advance, leaving them to hope for a topdeck. Besides, you need a way other than Thoughtseize to handle fatties.

A couple minor point to flesh this out: switch the Shortfang and the Lavamancer numbers (GL is just plain the better card, you have enough discard, you can easily feed GL, and 1B every turn isn't cheap); and Leylines of Lifeforce are almost useless - try those of the Void instead.

Ensnaring bridge is a very good idea. I think I will run it instead of the mogg fanatics.
But I think you didn't understand the deckidea: First I put the best cards of my opponent into his grave and play the rack. The rack deals damage every turn and all cards he doesn't play to get less damage don't make my late drawn disruption dead. With a rack wich makes about 5- 10 damage, a Grim Lavamancer and a Price of progress which also deals him about 8 damage I can easily put my opponent's lifepoints to 0. My "Burn" and my "stuff that does not deal damage" kill creatures and disturbe him, but I usually kill him with the cards above.
And the shortfang isn't good for his instant discard, he's awesome for his rack-like effect and becoming a 3/3.

Nihil Credo
11-24-2007, 03:22 PM
But I think you didn't understand the deckidea: First I put the best cards of my opponent into his grave and play the rack. The rack deals damage every turn and all cards he doesn't play to get less damage don't make my late drawn disruption dead. With a rack wich makes about 5- 10 damage, a Grim Lavamancer and a Price of progress which also deals him about 8 damage I can easily put my opponent's lifepoints to 0. My "Burn" and my "stuff that does not deal damage" kill creatures and disturbe him, but I usually kill him with the cards above.

I understood the deck idea perfectly, thanks. I did it with this amazing trick I learnt when I was five years old, called 'reading'.

Here's were the issue lies: the *only* reason to kill an opponent with burn spells instead of creatures is to avoid creature removal. Outside of that, creatures have every advantage: they're faster and require many less cards. Even if your opponent is at 10 from The Rack (and you won't draw that every game), it is still easier to kill him with three strikes of a single Jotün Grunt, Nantuko Shade or Tarmogoyf than with 3-4 burn spells.

Now, given that your heavy discard effects already get rid of whatever removal spells or blockers your opponent has in hand, the primary reason to not use creatures disappears. Sure, they can topdeck a removal spell, but it's unlikely they'll do so before your creature has attacked a couple of times. 1G or BB for 8-9 damage is a better deal than any burn spell will get you, except sometimes Price of Progress.

This is why I suggested Ensnaring Bridge: because it would give you an actual reason to play 2 damage/turn creatures like Lavamancer and Shortfang instead of 6-7 damage/turn ones like Shade or Goyf. Well, that and the fact that you have otherwise no way to kill a big creature.


Incidentally: if your opponents choose to keep *good* cards in hand instead of playing them just to save themselves from Rack damage, either they're very bad players or you've practically won already.

Maëlig
11-24-2007, 03:50 PM
Here's were the issue lies: the *only* reason to kill an opponent with burn spells instead of creatures is to avoid creature removal. Outside of that, creatures have every advantage: they're faster...
This is not exactly true. Burn spells are in fact faster than creatures to take away the life of your opponent. If we take even one of the strongest 1-mana critter such as Isamaru and compare him to the classic burn spell that is bolt, we can see that the former will start to be better (not taking into account the fact that he can block, get equiped, ...) only three turns later (when he will have dealt a total of 4 normally).
Other than that, you're right, if you relly on burn spells as your primary win condition you should simply play a burn deck...
It looks fun on paper, but I see no real synergies and I really wonder how this deck can be something else than just a bad version of red death.
Pox could be interesting combined with burn spells (assuming that you play no creatures) : it handles creatures, creates potential CA, and if played soon enough can do a great deal of damage, making it much easier to finish your opponent off with burn spells. Only problem : the 3 black mana.

Galroth
11-24-2007, 05:09 PM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6292

I personally think it's a great idea... a little un-original though ;P

Good luck. It really can kick ass. Thee main hurdle this deck has is the damage it does to itself. Confidant, thoughtseize, and fetches are all awesome and necesarry. It just hurts so much sometimes. The lack of ritual and the life loss converted me back to mono-black over time. However, I do think this is the best splash a discard shell can take.

Best of luck.

zander1
11-24-2007, 06:13 PM
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6292

I personally think it's a great idea... a little un-original though ;P

Good luck. It really can kick ass. Thee main hurdle this deck has is the damage it does to itself. Confidant, thoughtseize, and fetches are all awesome and necesarry. It just hurts so much sometimes. The lack of ritual and the life loss converted me back to mono-black over time. However, I do think this is the best splash a discard shell can take.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the link!!:smile:
The list is awesome, but i think storm world deals too much damage to me. The top, phyrexian arena and magma jet are nice ideas though.

I think my sideboard will be something like this:
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Fury charm ---- better shatter
4x Blood moon??

What do you think?

Galroth
11-24-2007, 07:00 PM
Nezumi Shortfang seems like a good replacement for stormworld. Another rack effect and an additional creature that's almost on par with Dark Confidant and Grim Lavamancer as a must kill. My only qualm might be the speed with which he begins to affect the game. A 2-of most definitely in my opinion.

thefreakaccident
11-24-2007, 08:14 PM
I think that this is was my original list that I had thought of a long time ago:


lands//18
4 badlands
4 bloodstained mire
3 polluted delta
1 mountain
6 swamp

discard//
4 duress
4 hymm to tourach
2 chain of smog

4 dark confidant
4 hypnotic spector
2 nantuko shade
4 nezumi shortfang
4 storm world
4 the rack
4 dark ritual
4 lightning bolt
2 cursed scroll


Of coarse the deck is not all that great looking, seeing as I made it years ago... If I were to redesign it for the current age, I would add a green splash for tarmogoyf, and add thoughseize as a 4 of...

So Annoying My Account Is Banned
11-25-2007, 01:45 PM
Is 4 nezumi shortfang a good idea? doesn't it turn into a legend when it flips? Lavamancer seems like it would be better for the deck, deal about the same amount of damage to your opponent every turn as Stabwhisk, and it can kill off weenies too.

zander1
11-25-2007, 02:02 PM
Yes, 4 Nezumis are a great idea. They're actually so good, that my opponent wants them dead anyway. And If I have one flipped and he's not dead, he is probably dealing 3 or more damage each turn and I have already won. I think that Nezumi is one of the best cards in the deck, because it helps the rack-idea a lot. A rack as 3/3 for four mana which lets your opponent discard one card is just too good for not playing it.
For the Lavamancers: I cut 2 mogg fanatics for the rest of them.

Edit: I don't need the Lavamancers to kill, I need them to destroy their cheap creatures which come early into play. For the same reason I need Lightning Bolt and the Fanatics, I really need only The Rack, Nezumi and Price of Progress to kill my opponent.

So Annoying My Account Is Banned
11-25-2007, 09:09 PM
Yes, 4 Nezumis are a great idea. They're actually so good, that my opponent wants them dead anyway. And If I have one flipped and he's not dead, he is probably dealing 3 or more damage each turn and I have already won. I think that Nezumi is one of the best cards in the deck, because it helps the rack-idea a lot. A rack as 3/3 for four mana which lets your opponent discard one card is just too good for not playing it.

Yeah, it's not like drawing an extra one would be a dead draw or anything. =\



For the Lavamancers: I cut 2 mogg fanatics for the rest of them.

Edit: I don't need the Lavamancers to kill, I need them to destroy their cheap creatures which come early into play. For the same reason I need Lightning Bolt and the Fanatics, I really need only The Rack, Nezumi and Price of Progress to kill my opponent.

Price of Progress is a good win condition, If you think you can get away with it run 5. Seriously, do it.

Lightning bolt isn't very good, you should run shock. Everyone runs lightning bolt and if your opponent plays cabal therapy on you they will name lightning bolt but if you playing shock then you get them fooled.

You should splash blue for patron wizard, that way you can tap grim lavamancer for a forcespike ability as well! you should think about it!

Cait_Sith
11-25-2007, 09:15 PM
1) It wouldn't be a dead draw, since they don't CiP flipped, and having backups never hurts.

2) PoP is not that hot in this deck. I'd sooner stick to the various Rack effects, since those are consistently good and don't walk into Spell Snare (the majority anyway).

Galroth
12-03-2007, 06:32 PM
I wanted to post my latest build for inspection and critique. I haven't been able to take it to a toureney yet, and brief testing on MWS never makes for reliable results. However, it's been performing like a champ. The largest problem was the life loss from Thoughtseize, Confidant, and SackLands. Sometimes this even prevented the use of Price of Progress for game winning blows. However, an extra inclusion, Ensnaring Bridge seems to have helped this out quite a bit. It's not like you're attacking with your creatures anyways ;). Thanks to Nihil for this pimp idea (I feel stupid for not thinking of it myself, I run ensnaring bridge in my mono-black discard build half the time).

Discard (12)
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
Burn (8)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Magma Jet
Creatures (10)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Grim Lavamancer
2x Nezumi Shortfang
Artifacts (9)
4x The Rack
3x Sensei's Diving Top
3x Ensnaring Bridge
Land (20)
4x Badlands
6x Swamp
2x Mountain
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta

It's been solid. The deck manipulation from Sensei's and Magma Jet is key. The draw from Confidant is amazing, so much that I even tempted Phyrexian Arena, but the life loss was too much and Ensnaring Bridge has now replaced it. You want more than just 8x burn spells, and Price of Progress is amazing in the current meta.

Your optimal game should look:
Turn 1-2 Pinpoint Discard followed by another Discard spell
Turn 2-3 Burn whatever may have hit the table
Turn 3-? Laydown your threats and try to control the board much as possible while keeping any key spells from hitting the board long as possible. Ride your threats to the win, they're hard to get rid of so it's a feasible plan.

Galroth
12-21-2007, 07:18 PM
I made some very minor changes to my latest list (the list can be seen in the post above). I wanted to know what everyone thinks of the theory behind it however.

Regardless of how amazing Price of Progress has been, I finally cut it to increase my Ensnaring Bridge count by 1 and my land count by 1. Price of Progress is a 'cool' card which can be utterly broken, but it's not a necesarry part of the deck's game plan. And Price of Progress can hurt me in a deck that wants to be very careful about it's life total. Ensnaring Bridge however, has become a fundamental part of this deck for me. My damage sources are just as effective behind the Bridge. My creatures seldom if ever want to attack. My hand doesn't mind being depleted. And my most troublesome matchups are those where the opponents aggressive creatures are pressuring me. Optimally I want to see an Ensnaring Bridge around turn 4 to spare me a few turns of that pressure while my damage sources whittle away at their life total.

Thoughts? Other innovation to the deck?

zander1
12-22-2007, 09:47 AM
I also cut the price of progress for putting some ensnaring bridges and SDTs into the deck.

My current list looks like this:

Lands:
4x Swamp
3x Mountain
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstainde Mire
4x Polluted Delta

Creatures:
4x Nezumi Shortfang
4x Dark Confidant
4x Grim Lavamancer

Discard:
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
Burn:
4x Lightning Bolt

Artifacts:
4x The Rack
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Sensei's Divining Top

For the cards:
Nezumi Shortfang- He's just too good against combo and control for not playing him. You usually want to play him turn 3 - 4, so 4 Nezumis might be too much.

Dark Confidant- refreshes your hand with the winning cards and with your low mana curve he won't do much damage.

Grim Lavamancer- kills other creatures and does damage over bridge.

Hymn, Duress, Thoughtseize- The best discard spells ever. They're necessary to make your rack and Nezumi good.

Cabal Therapy- Like Duress and Thoughtseize, but is a terrible topdeck but sometimes you catch two same cards, which is just too good. You now the opponent's hand with Duress and Thoughtseize anyway.

Lightning Bolt- Finishes your opponent or kills Lackey, Dark Confidant, etc.

The Rack- makes up to 10 damage.

Ensnaring Bridge- The deck was just too weak against aggro, so I put them in. 4 Bridges were too much, so I cut one for adding a swamp.

SDT- is really good with confidant and gives you the cards you need.

It has been really good against combo and control decks, but it nearly auto loses to goblins. Even with 4 Engineered Plagues in the SB, they usually win. You can stop them for the first 4 or 6 turns, but then they draw a matron or a ringleader and finish you by destroying your bridge or refreshing their hand with new goblins.