[Single Card Discussion] Chains of Mephistopheles

[FoolofaTook]

What do people think about Chains of Mephistopheles as a sideboard option against Threshold, Landstill and other decks that like to cantrip heavily or use extended draw mechanisms like Standstill?

I threw a couple into my sideboard last weekend and boarded them in against Threshold with fairly interesting results. I got lucky and had a Dark Ritual, Duress and Chains in my opening hand game two and largely shut down his cantrips after he realized what the deal was.

Threshold was really miserable with Chains in play, achieving Threshold very quickly but having very few cards in hand to exploit it. I'd love to find a good MD combo that justified having Chains of Mephistopheles in the main deck.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Chains is a very decent sideboard card. Anvil of Bogardan can create a lock with Chains. I think the only reason it doesn't see more play is its price tag.

[Barook]

I'd love to find a good MD combo that justified having Chains of Mephistopheles in the main deck.

Chains + Dark Confidant - you draw, they don't.

But I don't think that Chains is a MD card unless your meta is very draw-heavy. Dead MD cards = not sexy

[Bovinious]

Oracle text on Chains: "If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card this way, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard."

Wouldnt this create some sort of infinite mill situation, like wouldnt the draw a card after discarding trigger another discard then draw which would trigger another and so on? That isnt how I thought the card worked but thats what the text seems to imply, am I wrong? How does this work exactly?

[Illissius]

It wouldn't, because any replacement effect can only apply to a given event once. This is also why Furnace of Rath doesn't cause everything to deal infinite damage.

[APriestOfGix]

Chains is sexy. I played it SB in stax for EVER. the ONLY reason not to run it is the price, or lack of good decks (landstill, thresh, anything with draw) in your meta)

[Zuriya]

Edit: Deleted the rubbish.
Still a terrible wording.

[TrialByFire]

For the wording confusion, you all probably already know this, but it just causes you to discard before you draw, and if you have no cards in hand, mill one instead of discard and then skip the draw.

So Standstill breaking would be: discard, draw, discard, draw, discard, draw
Brainstorm: discard, draw, discard, draw, discard, draw, put two back on top
Brainstorm with 0 cards in hand: mill 1, mill 1, mill 1, nothing in hand to put back on top

[FoolofaTook]

For the wording confusion, you all probably already know this, but it just causes you to discard before you draw, and if you have no cards in hand, mill one instead of discard and then skip the draw.

So Standstill breaking would be: discard, draw, discard, draw, discard, draw
Brainstorm: discard, draw, discard, draw, discard, draw, put two back on top
Brainstorm with 0 cards in hand: mill 1, mill 1, mill 1, nothing in hand to put back on top

That's correct. It basically turns cantrips into bad filters, since they draw 1 for 2 and put themselves closer to handlock with each spell played.

The old combo that people tried to exploit was Howling Mines and Chains of Mephistopheles. The combo was iffy at best, since giving an opponent first draw is always iffy. As I recall the concept was Howling Mines, Black Vises, Winter Orbs, Relic Barriers, Chains of Mephistopheles, Atogs and sometimes The Rack coupled with Red burn, White removal and Black fast mana. I usually beat it handily although it messed with UW control a lot.

I'm looking for a more modern synergy that is a two card synergy and playable in Legacy. So far I haven't found it and I've spent hours on Gatherer looking.

[SpikeyMikey]

Chains is a solid card, but it depends on what you're playing. If you're toting a heavy hand destruction deck, it might not be the best choice for you, since there aren't many decks out there that will have cards in hand past the first few turns. There aren't many decks out there running actual draw, it's mostly just filtering and cantripping effects.

[Nihil Credo]

Compulsive Research is a pretty playable draw spell that comboes decently with Chains, if you pair that up with some LD theme (so that discarding a land isn't a great option for them).

[FoolofaTook]

Chains is a solid card, but it depends on what you're playing. If you're toting a heavy hand destruction deck, it might not be the best choice for you, since there aren't many decks out there that will have cards in hand past the first few turns. There aren't many decks out there running actual draw, it's mostly just filtering and cantripping effects.

A lot of cantrips and filters are essentially rendered useless by Chains. As an example: any effect that reads "draw a card and then discard a card" turns into "discard a card, draw a card and discard a card", which essentially shuts down the filter.

There are a few blue cantrips, like Sleight of Hand and Impulse, that get around Chains by a wording that places a card in the hand instead of drawing a card.

I've thought about running a Black Threshold type deck with Chains in it and just replacing the standard cantrips with somewhat less effective ones. Unfortunately the advantage gained via Chains is largely dissipated by the use of less effective cantrips overall.

Zur's Weirding also works with that subset of less effective cantrips, so it's possible that a really nasty combo could be setup in which Chains effects the early game and then Zur's is the locking mechanism.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think the best abuse for this is Wistfulthinking, that means draw to cards and discard 6 cards!
Anvil of Bogadahn is also cute for a Lock, but i dont know if you could play a instand in this process...

[umbowta]

I've always thought cracking a Cephalid Coliseum targeting your opponent would be amusing with Chains on the table.

[So Annoying My Account Is Banned]

I wouldn't mind getting them if they were like, 5 or 10 dollars and not hard to find. I think it could be a very good card in a format with a lot of control.

But they aren't 5 or 10 dollars or even 20, they are a lot more. And because it's not the most busted card in the format, it's just not worth it.

[FoolofaTook]

Compulsive Research is a pretty playable draw spell that comboes decently with Chains, if you pair that up with some LD theme (so that discarding a land isn't a great option for them).

I'm looking for a permanent or a mechanism that works with Chains and can be exploited.

The Dredge mechanic has some promise, however I have not found a permanent that seems obviously broken with Chains. 14k cards is a lot to sort through though.

[ACME_Myst]

I've tested them in the maindeck of a B/r Stax build, with pretty decent results.

The reasoning why I put them in the main was this:
- Stax lacks draw, so it's hard too find more lockpieces when you need them.
- Other decks have draw, so they can find answers to your locks.

What if, instead of adding bad to decent draw engines to Stax (bottled cloister, sylvan library), I instead remove the draw from the other deck. It turned out it worked.

Chains, btw, are not THAT expansive. You'll pay maybe $5-10 more than you would for a Goyf. Which also shows how expensive Goyf is, but still.

[Zork]

Forced Fruition seems a lot better under Chains. It's almost like a clock, since it gives them a maximum of 7, (usually 6 or less) spells to play before they lose.

I don't think its viable, but it looks interesting.

[APriestOfGix]

the best combo id Tefries puzzle box, and chains.

Sadly box costs 4, but it's really a CRAZY combo...

[hi-val]

It was played for awhile in Stax in Vintage because it's a good foil to Thirst for Knowledge from Control Slaver. The problem is that Chains is a pretty narrow card. Against Slaver, you would hit their Brainstorms and their TFKs, which really slowed them down when trying to find Tinker and out you. There, it played a valuable sideboard role of shutting down the opposing way of winning, which was drawing into Tinker. The fact that it was a permanent was very relevant for the Stax player as well, as this aided in long Smokestack grinds.

Chains is a card that, much like Stifle, is very general, but doesn't really do a whole lot against whatever you bring it in against. Sure, it'll hurt Threshold a little bit, but aren't there much better cards against them? If I were to run it, I would run it as a very specific hoser to a very specific deck, and it doesn't screw over something enough at the moment to warrant playing it. Against Landstill it might be appropriate, but I feel Duress or Hymn off the board would be more effective. I don't see it as holding much power when coming off of the sideboard these days.

Also, recent errata screwed Chains a lot more and made it worse. You can no longer draw a card with impunity in the opponent's draw step, as you once could.

I don't think price factors in to the playability of this specific card; I cannot see many applications for it even if it were a dime apiece.

[Ewokslayer]

Also, recent errata screwed Chains a lot more and made it worse. You can no longer draw a card with impunity in the opponent's draw step, as you once could.


Why would you think that the change makes Chains worse?

Not too many decks that would run Chains run instant speed card draw.

Closing the draw step loop hole in fact generally makes the card stronger as now your opponent can't draw a card in your turn via cycling or cantrips.

[freakish777]

Why would you think that the change makes Chains worse?

Not too many decks that would run Chains run instant speed card draw.

Closing the draw step loop hole in fact generally makes the card stronger as now your opponent can't draw a card in your turn via cycling or cantrips.

Or Library of Alexandria... (for those who play Vintage and are maybe thinking about cards that mess with Gush and cards played with Gush).

I hadn't noticed the update, I assume this occured with the Online release of Master's Edition.

I have to agree with Brian, this errata makes the card stronger. Since when does Stax (or Suicide/Control Black decks that would run this in Legacy) run cards to abuse the loophole? As far as Legacy is concerned, this card is most relevant in the sideboard of black board control decks (Train Wreck) if Reset.dec ever makes a come back (or if Wizards does something dumb like unban Gush, wink wink). Broad effect. Excessively narrow application.

[Wallace]

Why would you think that the change makes Chains worse?

Not too many decks that would run Chains run instant speed card draw.

Closing the draw step loop hole in fact generally makes the card stronger as now your opponent can't draw a card in your turn via cycling or cantrips.


Brian is totally right here, I run Chains in Dead Guy and my new B/G/W aggro deck, it is amazing. The fact that your opponent can no longer draw a card in your turn without the penalty is awsome.

[Cait_Sith]

Randomly on topic, I have a casual Chains deck on MWS I pull out when I feel a need for asshattery:

// Lands
8 [TE] Swamp (4)
10 [PT] Island (4)
4 [U] Underground Sea

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [PLC] Wistful Thinking
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles
3 [TSB] Mirari
4 [UL] Defense Grid
4 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [RAV] Compulsive Research
4 [PLC] Damnation
4 [TE] Propaganda

It does its job (milling + disruption) well, but tends to have consistency issues, so I don't consider it as a "real" Legacy deck.