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ShaheenSoorani
11-26-2007, 12:00 PM
Whats up guys? This is the deck that me and a national team competitor are testing for worlds.


UW "Classic" Control

3 Decree of Justice
2 Eternal Dragon
2 Exalted Angel
4 Sword to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Akromas Vengeance
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Cunning Wish

4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Temple of the False God
7 Island
3 Plains

Sideboard

1 Forbid
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Wingshards
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Orims Chant
1 Capsize
3 Tsabos Decree
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle


Its an old extended deck that I have had success with in Legacy, won/split a few pieces of power here and there. The deck has great success against two of the powerhouses of Legacy being Goblins and Threshold.

Threshold (black version included) is such an easy matchup that we cease to test the matchup anymore and focus on a much harder task of combo decks (cephalid mostly). The control vs. aggro control matchup nearly always ends up in controls favor with true card draw, more powerful win conditions in the late game, and superior removal.

Goblins turns a 60 40% in UWs favor because of one card...Tsabos Decree. The six mana instant ends the game immediately upon resolution...the trick being survival to the late game. Early counterspells/swords/wraths up to the cunning wish for Tsabos Decree is the game plan game 1 and game 2 you board in 2 decrees and wish for the third giving you 5 copies. I have yet to lose a game post decree against goblins and you feel almost dirty in a way after casting it...like you cheated. =)

Now the negatives...combo, yikes! I have dedicated all non-wish targets to help the matchup that doesn't yield the best results. After board cephalife has a hard time making it nearly a 50/50 matchup, but before board it is nearly unwinnable. A timely chant might save you game one but more than likely it will be very difficult to squeeze away with a win.

Affinity, Survival, random other rogue tier 3 decks are great matchups as well and I hope to hear some feedback from the legacy masters! =)

diffy
11-26-2007, 01:42 PM
I may not be one of the legacy masters you're talking about, but since this deck quite resembles my UWb Landstill (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=180911&postcount=632), I might be able to give you some advice.

First of all, you must know that Legacy has evolved into a very fast format in which you can't really rely on things such as Akroma's Vengeance, Fact or Fiction, Stroke of Genious, Capsize, Temple of the False God etc... if you're playing a control deck and reach the point at which these shine (taking into account Daze, mana base disruption etc), you have basically won already.
Your gameplan should always be to reach the lategame, not to be good in the lategame.

First of all, let's start with your mana base.

As said, if you reach the point at which you have 5 lands in play for Temple of the False God to be of any help, you have won (you are in the latish game) and even then I don't see it being any good as it produces only colorless mana in a deck which is quite colored mana hungry. Don't play them.
-2 Temple of the False God

Your fetchland configuration is also a bit off... nobody is going to name Flooded Strand with their Pithing Needles against you and so the ability to grab a basic plains off a Flooded Strand makes them worth playing 4 times.
Nevertheless, I'd not play more than 6 fetches (despite them being awesome in combination with Brainstorm) as with 24 lands and 2 Eternal Dragons, your color stability shouldn't be an issue (or at least not a big one) and because you actually don't want to thin your library that much because you want to hit every single land drop until turn infinited.
-1 Polluted Delta
+1 Flooded Strand

Next, I'd add some more Duals... From my experiences with 3c Landstill, I'd strongly advise you to run more black mana sources, at least one more. Also, I'd recomend that you drop down to 2 basic Plains (it sucks to have one and no blue source in your opening hand and with 2 you can cast anything under a Wastelock) and add another blue source, a Ravnica Dual will do for this slot (they don't suck that much as you can fetch them at eot if you don't have anything to do).
-1 Plains
-2 Island
+2 Underground Sea
+1 Hallowed Fountain

You can easily cut down to 23 lands as you run 4 Brainstorms and 2 Eternal Dragons as additional early land finders.
We'll come to the land slot that remains open later as it looks too janky out of context.

Now on to your Creature Hate package.

As I said before, I just think that Akroma's Vengeance is way too slow for Legacy. You should look into Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html) which really is Legacy's new Vengeance. It's cheap, efficient and even does something against combo (Empty the Warrens tokkens, Mana sources [Chrome Mox, Tinder Wall], Xantid Swarm etc). It can be needled which is harsh against ********, but as you pointed out, you crush that deck (at least I do with Landstill).
-2 Akroma's Vengeance
+2 Engineered Explosives

As you have a land slot open, you could run a singleton Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html) which is awesome in conjunction with Engineered Explosives (just wins games, periode), the colorless mana is no issue as your mana base can easily afford it (Landstill can with 7 colorless sources or more).
+1 Academy Ruins

Next, I really don't like Exalted Angel. Yes, it can help shift gears and all, but that's at the earliest done turn 3-4 and then you only have Force of Will as a protection. I'd rather replace it with something that has proven extremly well in Legacy, stopping all sorts of sheanigans and making the game extremely hard to win for a lot of decks: Humility. You don't run manlands to really abuse it (you could actually add those, but then you'd end up playing Landstill, meh, play Landstill) so you could run something else, but it's still an option.
-2 Exalted Angel
+2 Vedalken Shackles
Humility is awesome and all, but I fear that it makes games too long, so I'd just replace the Angels with Shackles as these doulbe as both (contineous!) removal and wincondition.
Still, do consider Humility in your testing. If you drop it against something like NQG, they can't win. If you drop it early against Goblins, they are in trouble (no tricks, no cardadvantage)... if you then wish for a Pulse of the Fields it gets really, really ugly.

The last slot (remember: -1 land) should be another Explosives as these are just plain and simply awesome against the field.

I just noticed that your list in the opening post seems to miss a card... In that case I'd just add in another Engineered Explosives or alternatively something like Smother which is even cheaper but can't hit multiple targets (eg a Goyf and a Counterbalance) or be good against combo (EE even hits Vial against Breakfast...)

On to your sideboard.

Straight ahead, I'd just suggest that you play the Sideboard I have for my UWb Landstill:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Return to Dust
1 Slaughter Pact

Historically, Cunning Wish was added to Landstill so that it could have a fighting chance against Loam decks (have access to Extirpate game 1) so not playing at least 1 Extirpate in the Sideboard is not tech. Additionally Extirpate is very strong against Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast.
Slaughter Pact replaces Wing Shards because it is better to be able to kill something from turn 3 onwards (and not having to waste 6 mana now). It also helps against Magus of the Moon. A lot.
Return to Dust is there for general utility, you'll love it against all that randomness.
No Orim's Chant because if you get to Wish for a Chant against combo, something has gone wrong and you're already on the winning side (read: it's too slow).
Forbid is also pretty janky as you'll never buyback it. If you want a counter in the Sideboard (which I think is nonesense as it is again way too slow... if you get a bullet like a removal or disenchant effect, you get it as an answer to a threat and not in advance to something the opponent might play), go with Prohibit (http://magiccards.info/in/en/67.html).
Stroke is win more... if you're ever going to cast it, you're in the very late game and so you've accomplished your goal and therefore are likely to win.
Capsize's job is done by Return to Dust/Slaughter Pact but better as it gets rid of the permanent permanently so that you don't have to waste a counter on it (card disadvantage -> bad).
Engineered Plague replaces Tsabo's Decree. It does a similar job against Goblins (but better because I don't see you reaching 6 mana through wastes, ports and a clock) but being generally better against the Field (Ichorid, Breakfast [name Wizards], Tribal Stuff, Emtpy the Warrens, Baseruption [name Wizards] etc)
A full playset of Meddling Mage makes the Combo Matchup okay.
I don't see where needle would be good enough to warrant 3 Sideboard slots. All the other options seem just to be so much more versatile and powerfull.

Well, after all those changes, the list would really resemble my Landstill build which I urge you to test. It is extremely powerfull against the field and offers a stronger (cheaper) draw engine than yours (last change: Fact -> Standstill)...
I really don't see the advantages in your UWb Control build over any Landstill build at all by the way. Fact is just so painfully slow... even if Standstill is situational, it will still get you more cards for less mana.

So far, let me know what you think of my ideas...
if this was supposed to be a joke, well, you got me...

Edit:The entire rant at the end of how Landstill is superior to your Control in my opinion does in no way change the alterations done to your deck... if you're keeping the Facts in and the Manlands out, I'd still go with the changes I proposed.

Provisory Decklist:


Mainboard (60 cards)
4 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/al/en/294.html)
1 Hallowed Fountain (http://magiccards.info/di/en/174.html)
3 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/al/en/295.html)
1 Scrubland (http://magiccards.info/al/en/289.html)
2 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
5 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac3/en/2.html)
2 Plains (http://magiccards.info/apac1/en/4.html)

3 Decree of Justice (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/8.html)
2 Eternal Dragon (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/12.html)

4 Sword to Plowshares (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/278.html)
3 Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/po/en/202.html)
4 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
2 Vedalken Shackles (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/164.html)

4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)
4 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/al/en/55.html)

4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
3 Cunning Wish (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/37.html)
4 Fact or Fiction (http://magiccards.info/in/en/57.html)

Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
4 Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html)
4 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)
1 Pulse of the Fields (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/11.html)
1 Return to Dust (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/39.html)
1 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)

Nihil Credo
11-26-2007, 02:45 PM
When building a blue-based control deck, it's pretty damn hard to justify not running a 1U Ancestral Recall (Standstill). If you skip on that, your only advantage is a better manabase (good for the Goblins matchup) and being able to run threats like Exalted Angel - more powerful, but also more Wrath-able. Moreover, when facing up against Landstill (which is a pretty common deck), you will be at a *massive* disadvantage, because of their better draw engine and fewer dead cards (their removal works, 5/9 of yours doesn't).

I think these are reasons enough to just stick with some form of Landstill, unless someone tells you that Worlds will be flooded with Goblins. However, if you disagree on this point, I have a few suggestions for your deck:

Edit - DIF already wrote every point I wanted to make, and better than I did. I agree with him on all points.

I would, however, suggest a slightly different configuration:

Maindeck:
-1 Fact or Fiction (to gain access to it as a Wish target)
-1 Engineered Explosives (I've never felt the need for four of those)
+2 Exalted Angel (I think it's still a fine card in the current meta, especially now that only 3 of your cards kill him)

Sideboard:
-1 Extirpate (it is a card made for matchups that go to the long game. In these matchups, two copies plus 3 Wishes are enough to find them)
+1 Fact or Fiction

xsockmonkeyx
11-26-2007, 03:21 PM
Extirpate seems like an obvious inclusion in the board as:

1)You are playing Cunning Wish
2)You are splashing for black
3)Life from the Loam is a bastard for these kind of decks to deal with.

I would pack at least 1 in the board and maybe more depending on how much graveyard based strategies you expect.

Machinus
11-26-2007, 03:29 PM
Which goblins players are you beating?

I'm just wondering how they justify losing to 4 StP 3 Wrath 0 Humility.

Aggro_zombies
11-26-2007, 03:52 PM
http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12052

Top 8 list from a recent German tournament.

One thing I like about that list is Sensei's Divining Top, which is nuts in a control deck where long-term card selection is important.

diffy
11-26-2007, 03:58 PM
Top 8 list from a recent German tournament. (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12052)
One thing I like about that list is Sensei's Divining Top, which is nuts in a control deck where long-term card selection is important.


Don't take that list into account too much... Marius is just hell of a player. He could play virtually anything and still do well with it. Oh, and the meta at that event was really random too.

The list is okay but pretty rough... for instance SdT really isn't all that good if you don't have a shuffle effect (that list only plays 6 which is too little in my opinion) and also as far as I can remember Ex. Angel was never what won games. I usually saw him sitting smiling behind a Back to Basics or an active Furnace.
I also hate the 4th top and the 4 Wastelands in that deck, hell I hate Wasteland in any control deck that can't recur it and even there it's bad. Predict seems also way to random without SdT.

I think that shell is best suited for a Countertop approach... throw in a coupple of Counterbalances (cut those Dragons and Angels, replace Wrath with Shackles, retailor the mana base).
The list approaches the concept of the deck in a fully other way, more tempoish and less in the heavy control fashion of Landstill/the above list.

freakish777
11-26-2007, 04:26 PM
Whats up guys? This is the deck that me and a national team competitor are testing for worlds.


UW "Classic" Control

3 Decree of Justice
2 Eternal Dragon
2 Exalted Angel
4 Sword to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Akromas Vengeance
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Cunning Wish

4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Temple of the False God
7 Island
3 Plains

Sideboard

1 Forbid
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Wingshards
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Orims Chant
1 Capsize
3 Tsabos Decree
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle



I'm not a fan of Akroma's Vengeance, Stifle or Engineered Explosives should probably be more relevant. Your threat count seems high, but I'll assume it's correct as opposed to packing more answers.

Cut Temple of the False God. I'm really not sure what it's doing for you, and seeing it in your opening hand is awful (and the fundamental turn is somewhere between turn 2 and 4 depending on what threats your opponent is playing). The problem I suppose, is that Ancient Tomb is basically the only land that taps for 2 that's any good in Legacy, and you probably aren't running enough Angels to make that work.

Spell Snare seems like a card to consider (even if you only board it) as basically every other game breaking card in the format right now costs 2 (Loam, Counterbalance, Goyf, BWish, Infernal Tutor, Standstill, Confidant, Jitte, Meddling Mage, Survival of the Fittest, Chalice@1, etc). The only deck not really affected by it is Goblins.

I'll second Extirpate being a card to board. Against Breakfast it seems like against poor players you wait for them to put their combo in their bin and just remove the Ghoul/Dread Return, and against good players, you Extirpate Cabal Therapy as soon as they hit that (seeing as how a good player will mill into Therpay + Narco, and Therapy you for Swords/FoW to clear the way). I could be wrong about Extirpating the Therapy, but even if so, it seems like Extirpate should make your graveyard dependant combo match up better.

ShaheenSoorani
11-26-2007, 05:00 PM
Hmm a lot of things to reply to, I'll do my best!

First of all thanks for the suggestions and I know legacy is a fast format and it has evolved....but about the same speed as man has evolved except for abrupt flash format changers. :)

Akromas Vengeance was renewed faith for me off and on throughout tournaments I've played in, so the concesus is that the six mana cycling wrath is ineffective so lets ditch it. That would be replaced by two renewed faith and lets address a few comments about the goblins matchup.

UW plays vs goblins

Turn 1
FOW, Swords, Brainstorm
Turn 2
Counterspell, Cycle Renewed Faith, Cycle Eternal Dragon, Previously named cards
Turn 3
Cast renewed faith, Cunning Wish for Tsabos Decree, Previous
Turn 4
Wrath of God, FoF, Previous
Turn 5
Possible Tsabos Decree (aka game over), Previous

I mean I saw the example of 4 stps, 3 wrath, 0 humility...again Tsabos Decree is an unknown force that goblins just cannot beast upon resolution...try it out!

Standstill since the card has been printed has been one of the top overrated cards in my opinion, where a very situational card that is completely worthless against aggro and combo. It fools you to believe its great against combo, but in earlier tournaments when belcher and solidarity saw a standstill they would just wait.....take 2 from factory....wait..wait and just kill you with the cute three cards you drew because those decks just do that (specially solidarity). I think you can play a deck with early countermagic and removal, mid game card draw and late game win conditions (control) without having to run man lands (lose to back to basics, wasteland) and that 2 mana situational enchantment.

The deck has 8 shuffle effects (2 eternal dragon).

I agree with cutting stroke, changing 1 fact of fiction to the board.

Temple of the False God is a pseudo land. The deck runs 25 land, 2 eternal dragons...cantrips and card draw. Thats 27 land, 2 temples, consider them a mid range land drop to accelerate a tsabos decree, turn 5 angel, higher decree count etc. That card is really hard to defend and all I can do is suggest running a few games or goldfishing with it.

I like the lack of duals for two reasons:
1) The deck really isn't that mana hungry and with eternal dragon + 6 fetches it is really easy to get the needed mana every game.
2) Back to Basics, Wasteland, etc. don't need extra targets, some games I finished with all basics out while goblins had out a few wastelands.

Again I don't feel like the format has changed to a speed that cannot be managed by consistent early game removal/disruption followed by the control elements presented, but I agree akromas vengeance isn't needed (lack of affinity hopefully). The only speed that scares the deck is one combo deck being ceph, but if the deck has 1/3 bad matchups and great ones against gobs and thresh...that should do it for a contender.

Again I appreciate all the feedback! Here is a revised list.


UW "Classic" Control

3 Decree of Justice
2 Eternal Dragon
3 Exalted Angel
4 Sword to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Renewed Faith
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Cunning Wish

4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Temple of the False God
7 Island
3 Plains

Sideboard

1 Forbid
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Wingshards
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Orims Chant
1 Capsize
3 Tsabos Decree
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle

ClearSkies
11-26-2007, 05:26 PM
Just to let you know, Tsabo's Decree is 5B, which is a total of 6 mana.
That is at least 5-6 turns before you can destroy the goblins. 5-6 turns for goblins is alot of turns.

Nihil Credo
11-26-2007, 05:31 PM
Standstill since the card has been printed has been one of the top overrated cards in my opinion, where a very situational card that is completely worthless against aggro and combo. It fools you to believe its great against combo, but in earlier tournaments when belcher and solidarity saw a standstill they would just wait.....take 2 from factory....wait..wait and just kill you with the cute three cards you drew because those decks just do that (specially solidarity). I think you can play a deck with early countermagic and removal, mid game card draw and late game win conditions (control) without having to run man lands (lose to back to basics, wasteland) and that 2 mana situational enchantment.

Entschuldigung? Belcher and Solidarity are two completely different decks. They don't behave even remotely similarly.

Belcher will do its thing on turn 1 or, sometimes, on turn 2. Standstill in this matchup will probably never land down. If it does, Belcher will have to break it and give you three chances to draw another Force of Will or Counterspell or Engineered Explosives.

Solidarity is a lost cause for blue-based control decks. No, really. The deck is built to manhandle control. Meddling Mages or not, Standstill or not, you're always a massive underdog in this matchup. Don't bother with it, it won't get played much at Worlds anyway.

If anything, Standstill's underwhelming against Goblins, because a good percentage of the time they'll have a Vial and it will be a dead card. Conveniently enough, though, in that matchup you need to bring in a playset of hate cards.

Shawn
11-26-2007, 05:34 PM
+2 Engineered Explosives...


+1 Academy Ruins...

Humility....

Historically, Cunning Wish was added to Landstill so that it could have a fighting chance against Loam decks (have access to Extirpate game 1) so not playing at least 1 Extirpate in the Sideboard is not tech. Additionally Extirpate is very strong against Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast.
Slaughter Pact replaces Wing Shards because it is better to be able to kill something from turn 3 onwards (and not having to waste 6 mana now). It also helps against Magus of the Moon. A lot.

I really don't see the advantages in your UWb Control build over any Landstill build at all by the way.
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I agree that EE is amazing and so is one random Ruins. Humility is great and with Wish for Pulse, it's GG vs aggro. I understand the black splash for Extirpate greatly helps the Ichorid match up, but would just running straight UW be fine against the loam match ups? Crypt and Furnace are still available to remove Loam and man lands and it makes the mana base much less susceptible to Wasteland. As it's been said, the one main advantage of this over landstill is the mana base, and being able to run sb Back to Basics is awesome.

I really like Laber's list, because of the Thirst+Top+Predict+maindeck Furnaces. However, I don't like the 4 Wastelands, those could probably be cut to two.

Anyway, here's a list I've been messing around with:

Lands (23):
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Plains
6 Islands

Win conditions (7):
2 Exalted Angel
2 Eternal Dragon
3 Decree of Justice

Removal (10):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives

Draw (10):
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Impulse?


Counters (10):
2 Stifle
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

The two Wastelands are basically in there for killing man lands. A Tropical Island was added so I can EE for 3, which has been quite relevant. It was chosen over and Underground Sea for the slim chance that an opponent would play an Urborg; so I can EE for 4. Sometimes I've had problems running out of cards in my hand, and FoF is really, really slow, so I would like to find a card to replace it. (Ancestral Vision?) The removal and counter package is pretty standard for UW. Two Impulse are in the md, but could be replaced by something else. Humility and Cunning Wish are really strong and could be substituted for 2 Angels, 1 Wrath, 2 Impulse. I currently run a pair of Humilities sb. I have been wanting to test a pair of md Moats, but I haven't had the time to do it yet.

I really like Standstill, and agree it's a very powerful card. Dealing with the opponent's threat, then laying a t2 or t3 Standstill is amazing. However, there have been many situations where there were threats on the board and I had a Standstill in hand, and it did nothing to help. If Standstill is best when the control deck is winning, isn't there draw out there that is better before the deck has stabilized? Laber's engine with Thirst and Predict seems really strong, but it takes up a lot of deck slots. Thoughts?

diffy
11-26-2007, 05:48 PM
Belcher will do its thing on turn 1 or, sometimes, on turn 2.

Also, you are favoured in the Belcher matchup, at least if you run Engineered Explosives. Explosives handles Empty the Warrens, your counters take care of Belcher. Post board you bring in the Engineered Plagues (additional EtW hate), the Mages and Extirpates (nice on Rite of Flame or initial mana sources).



Meddling Mages or not, Standstill or not, you're always a massive underdog in this matchup.

I agree, but you actually can tailor the sideboard to fit the matchup. I can remember that quite some time ago I played 3 Jotun Grunts 4 Meddling Mage and 4 Stifles in my board to at least have a fighting chance agianst Solidarity. You just mage Cunning Wish, drop a Grunt and procede to win.
Nevertheless, the matchup is extremely hard but also feasible with the board I proposed. Extirpate does help and Mage at least is a clock... but I agree, Solidarity is not the metaforce and you should look into answers that are versatile and broadly playable because Legacy is just such a random format where a defined metagame will rareley to never happen (great exception from the rule: German Champs with 30% Belcher 30% NQG but that still leaves 40% of randomness which you are more likely to face).



If anything, Standstill's underwhelming against Goblins, because a good percentage of the time they'll have a Vial and it will be a dead card. Conveniently enough, though, in that matchup you need to bring in a playset of hate cards.

That's where Engineered Explosives comes in. If you have a starting hand of both EE and Standstill, just preemtively drop EE at 1 to handle a possible Vial (or Lackey) and drop the Standstill next turn (or the turn after if Lackey was droped obviously).
Standstill really is no worse than Fact in this matchup as it is unlikely that you'll ever get to cast Fact in time when it matters.

Also I think that Fact does suck at high level play (like Worlds should be) as your opponent will always be competent enough to split the 5 in a way that you are forced to take the smaller pile, or am I misunderstood here?

Yes, Tsabo's Decree might be game if you resolve it against Goblins (which I think won't happen that often) but Legacy is so random that you have to look into broader solutions. Engineered Plague does not only handle Goblins (and other tribal nonesense) but also stuff like Empty the Warrens (which you definetely will see at Worlds) and Baseruption/Fish. Hell, I even board it in against Enchantress.

Also, Renewed Faith was only good in Rifter... because it was a shock, gain 2 life and draw a card.
ShaheenSoorani, if I remember correctly, you placed 9th at Worlds (Extendet) with a UW Tron build (which was awesome until Feldman's came along by the way), but this format can't compare to Extendet and so you can't really trace analogies between this UW Control/Landstill and that Tron.

Oh, and I still don't see how Capsize, Wing Shards, Forbid and Chant are any good in the sideboard... could you please elaborate on these choices? Thank you.




But would just running straight UW be fine against the loam match ups?

Definetely not. They will just outpower and outdraw you as they'll always recur cycling lands and just draw into more threats. It gets really ugly when Seismic Assault joins the party.



Crypt and Furnace are still available to remove Loam and man lands and it makes the mana base much less susceptible to Wasteland.

Crypt and Furnace will never remove any Loam (they can just cycle -> dredge in responce to you activating the Crypt).
Crypt might bring a temporary boost but you can't take advantage of the tempo and will loose in the long game. Believe me the Aggro Loam matchup is amongst the uglies in entire Legacy as they have incredible beatz and a better longgame than you.



As it's been said, the one main advantage of this over landstill is the mana base, and being able to run sb Back to Basics is awesome.

I agree that Back to Basics is awesome... but it is somewhat win more as you board it in for the Matchups that are already excellent (NQG) or that you'll not face ("mirror" aka other Landstill builds).
The small splash (it's only 3 duals) is really worth it and does not harm the mana base. You have 4 Brainstorms and 2 (1) Eternal Dragons to filter your draws and you still have 4 basics whith which you can cast everything in the deck (appart from Eternal Dragon) even under heavy Wasteland recursion or Magus of the Moon etc.



FoF is really, really slow, so I would like to find a card to replace it.

Try Cunning Wish. No I'm not joking, I'm acutally playing them in a sort of Card Advantage slot as they are never dead and always get you a solution for the current situation.
Ancestral Visions is really crappy as you don't have the time to wait. Play something like Jace Belaren if you really want a hard draw spell... he's hard to remove and is an additional win condition in the control mirror (I have lost a game to his 3rd ability, really... you happy now, Stefan?)
If you chose to add Cunning Wish, there really is no reason not to splash Black.



4 Wrath of God

I'd cut one of these. Often you'll find yourself playing it only to kill one creature (there just are a lot of standalone threats such as Goyf, Confidant, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Jotun Grunt etc). Engineered Explosives is not only faster but also better against combo and it can take out a Counterbalance/comes always down under counterbalance (just play it for n*U + m*W it'll cost n+w on the stack but will only come into play with 2 counters).



2 Stifle

Did I already mention that I have a heartly hatered of this card? I must have somewhere on this site. It is pretty narrow and offers too much suck for too little broad usage.
No, seriously, it's just too much of a dead card most of the time as the random "Stifle your fetch, ha! You're screwed!" just doesn't happen because of mana bases being more stable (thanks to Gobs) and you don't need the protection from Wasteland if you practice a little (tiny) bit. It has uses in the combo matchup, but you'll want it on the opening hand here all the time.
Play 0 or 3. My personal advise: don't play them.



Moat

Don't. I played an Enlightened Tutor based Landstill variant for ages (hell, I introduced that deck to Germany :tongue: ) and Moat was always sort of a crutch and would only stall the game for some time. ***** will beat you with an Enforcer that it can protect now (it has time as your clock is even more cut off), Siege-Gang Comander will go into party mode and throw his comrades at you etc.
Generally speaking, cmc4 spells are to be avoided as they are just extremely clunky and should be game ending (Humility) or creating serious Card Advantage (that's why WoG is underwhelming sometimes. You still need it tough because withouth it the opponent can just overextend and burry you with critters without you being able to punish him).



Alternative draw engine

I haven't tested this in Landstill (only in Tog and such) but you could run 3 Intuitions and 4 Accumulated Knowledges. They create very nice CA and still let you leave mana open for permission as well as being more versatile... Intuition could get removal or Counters if you really need them desperately.

Some possible changes to your version (black and wishless version, for "optimal" version see my first post):

-1 Island
-1 Plains (Shackles...)
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 Windswepth Heath (you don't need that many lands and shuffle effect for Brainstorm is always nice. Heath is there to have 5 fetchies which get you W which is very important as a lot of key spells cost double white)

-1 Wrath of God
+1 Engineered Explosives

-2 Impulse
-1 Fact or Fiction
+3 Vedalken Shackles

-3 Fact or Fiction
-2 Stifle
-1 Decree of Justice (very lategame card, 2 should be enough to draw one when it matters)
-1 Eternal Dragon (same here, you don't need that much additional mana fixing as you're 2 colored)
+3 Intuition
+4 Accumulated Knowledge

Possible Sideboard (meh, this looks janky but I'm too tired to come up with something better at the moment):
4 Meddling Mage
2 Humility
4 Stifle
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Rule of Law
3 Jotun Grunt

Still, I urge you to try that UWb Landstill list I linked earlier... played correctly, it can beat everything in the entire format, same is true for this 4c list (http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=58770) by Marius Hausman [latest change: -1 DoJ +1 Stifle].

So far... ask if you have any questions, I'll try and respond as soon as I can but this won't be before 16:00 (GMT +1 | CET +0)

ShaheenSoorani
11-27-2007, 12:01 AM
Ok mainly because of the overwhelming agreement that the deck is outdated I have decided to change the list drastically. I might have had success because of metagames, heavy goblin and thresh...or maybe because of amazing playskill...lol...but regardless lets try this list out.


UW Control

4 Trinket Mage
3 Decree of Justice
2 Eternal Dragon
3 Cunning Wish
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Chalic of the Void
1 Tormods Crypt
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sword to Plowshares

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Seat of Synod
1 Ancient Den
5 Island
1 Plains


Sideboard

1 Dismantling Blow
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Smother
1 Orims Chant
3 Tsabos Decree
4 Meddling Mage
3 Wrath of God
2 Pithing Needle

What do you guys think? A bit faster? Tsabos Decree and I are best friends, but besides that what changes do y'all think?

Nihil Credo
11-27-2007, 01:04 AM
That new list puzzles me. Aside from some minor inconsistencies (no Ruins, yet 2 Seas and four arti-lands), you have cut a large amount of business spells for the sake of Trinket Mage. Mage is almost exclusively a tutor in this deck: a 2/2 barely affects the board equilibrium, and decks that play him invariably run Equipment to make him useful.

Your actual board presence (Dragon, Decree) comes online on turn seven, and in order to survive until there you only have less countermagic and about as much removal as your average Threshold list... except without the cheap 3/3s and 4/5s to rule the ground. Goblins will pound you into the ground.

Since I don't believe you've just missed the mana curve hole at 2cc, my guess is that you plan to curve out with [Mage->]Chalice@2, hurting Threshold and crippling control decks. This is an interesting plan, but I have two issues with it: firstly, as I've mentioned above, I believe you've cut too much into your "survival package" (Turn <3 plays) in order to accommodate this plan. Secondly, and most importantly, Counterbalance does that job a million times better and without forcing you to twist your deck around it.

If I were to play an UW Control with tutor elements, I'd look to Enlightened Tutor rather than Trinket Mage. Despite costing you a card, it can fetch you real bombs that will win you the game single-handedly... Humility, the missing piece of Counterbalance+Top (with which it has insane synergy), Vedalken Shackles, postboard Engineered Plague. This is, IMO, more suitable to a control deck than a Fabricate with an attached chump-blocker.

mackaber
11-27-2007, 05:18 AM
Having attempted to port Remi's PT winning declist to Legacy I'd have to say that trinket mage is just not up to snuff in Legacy. He's way too slow a 2/2 rarely affects the board in a significant fashion.
And generally that second list looks reaaly weak. Before you go with a something like that you should probably stick with a tried and true dec like UGw Counterbalance top (which I'm not sure your first list should beat consistently since balance top should be a real isue).
On a more general note I think if you are testing a gaúntlet of Gobs (a dec that is basically not truly competitve anymore and will see only little play at worlds by Chilenean National Champs and the like), Thresh (the dec to beat), and Ceph (prolly the best combo dec atm) you are missing a major part of the metagame and I have no idea how the above list should beat dredge or how a true control dec with no real answers (Force does not count) to Vial can persist in the metagame. So while this might sound sorta cocky I'll tell you what I've told all my friends who are going to worlds: Read these boards and pick one of the many good declists you can find here and practice with it as much as you can. This will leave you better prepared than building something on your own or porting an extended dec. Your prior sucess at Legacy events is easily explained through superior playskill but that shouldn't cut it at worlds if you bring a subpar declist.
While I don't think there will be any major innovations at Worlds (mainly due to lack of testing on the part of the Pro Community) I do believe there are about 10 viable decs out there and thus the metagame will be fairly diverse so come prepared.

ShaheenSoorani
12-01-2007, 01:15 PM
Well again thanks for the help guys even though it looks like I didn't listen it made me revamp the deck infinite times. This is the tested (against ceph, gobs and thresh) final version.


UWBg Trinket Mage

3 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Counterbalance
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
4 Sword to Plowshares

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Seat of Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins


Sideboard

1 Disenchant
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Smother
1 Orims Chant
3 Tsabos Decree
3 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague

I won't be able to attend worlds this year sadly...mainly because I can't take 4 days off from work, but one of my buddies is going to pilot it. Next VA legacy tournament I'll give it a whirl also.

Silverdragon
12-01-2007, 01:34 PM
Well again thanks for the help guys even though it looks like I didn't listen it made me revamp the deck infinite times. This is the tested (against ceph, gobs and thresh) final version.


UWBg Trinket Mage

3 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Counterbalance
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
4 Sword to Plowshares

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Seat of Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins


Sideboard

1 Disenchant
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Smother
1 Orims Chant
3 Tsabos Decree
3 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague

I won't be able to attend worlds this year sadly...mainly because I can't take 4 days off from work, but one of my buddies is going to pilot it. Next VA legacy tournament I'll give it a whirl also.

Glad you came to a build that you like however to me that list looks like a worse version of Baseruption. I also agree with mackaber that Trinket Mage is not that good in Legacy. Most of the time I'd even run Enlightened Tutor instead because it costs only 1, can manipulate your top of library for CB and fetches a wider range of silverbullets. (Regardless ET is still bad)
Have you tried Predict in place of Thirst for Knowledge?

Oh and you could also go -1 Tsabos Decree, +1 Extirpate in the sideboard for added versatility without loosing to much against Tribal decks.

diffy
12-01-2007, 01:43 PM
UWBg Trinket Mage


Your list really looks like a less suffisticated version of Baseruption (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6504)... you might want to have a look at that thread and the deck for ideas.
It was originally created to dominate in the Flash meta and might be a little bit outdated...
Here's aYb's new take on 4c Aggro Control (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12111) (although I think that it isn't that good as Baseruption and features some rather strange choices, but I haven't tested enough to be able to judge).
As you splash Green only for Tarmogoyf, you weaken your manabase for an obviously strong creature, but, if you aren't comfortable with that you could always go in the Uwb Fish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7468) way and play Jotun Grunt istead (still nice answer to the Goyf and a good beater).

On to your list. It seems to have quite some flaws in its concept...
You now are more aggro control (cut all the control pieces) and therefore don't need 23 (!) lands... just replace some of them with cantrips (Ponder, Portent) or other mana sources which support your tempo gameplan (Chrome Mox).
Also, as you run Counterbalance, you should adjust your mana curve to Legacy's. In most decks you'll face (NQG, other random aggro, combo), you'll only seldomly see alot of cards in the 3 mana slot. To maximise the efficiency of a 'blind' (or even controled!) Counterbalance, I'd therefore cut down that slot to the absolute bare minimum. You might want to have a look at my Balanced NQG (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174055&postcount=760) to see how the mana curve could look like.
Also, in a tempoish deck, I don't think that Cunnig Wish is worth it. You have your cantrips to efficiently dig for the solutions that are in your mainboard and 3 mana to get an answer is rather a tempo sink. Don't play it.
Also, Chalice and Tormod's Crypt aren't that great in the main. Chalice is not really harmonizing with your gameplan and Crypt is just dead too often. I'd rather play more Needles (always good and pretty much your only chance against Landstill is to draw multiples) and/or Engineered Explosives.
Also, 3 Brainstorm is just wrong in a deck with 8 fetchies (note: Counterbalance turns Brainstorm into hardcounters).

evskimo
05-25-2008, 09:44 PM
I've decided i may test u/w control simply because i'm having so much trouble building a decent U/W landstill.

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
2 Decree of Justice

3 Engineered Explosives

2 Exalted Angel
1 Eternal Dragon

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
3 Plains
6 Island
1 Academy Ruins


SB:

2: Disenchant
3: Arcane Laboratory
3: Sphere of Law
2: Energy Flux
2: Tormod's Crypt
3: Enlightened Tutor

Citrus-God
05-26-2008, 02:11 AM
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [MI] Island (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ST] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
3 [6E] Wrath of God
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [AT] Disenchant
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [IN] Tsabo's Decree
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer


Or something like that... no, seriously, isnt this supposed to be the UW Control thread? Anyways, I posted an awfully generic list, so discuss!

evskimo
05-26-2008, 05:34 AM
counter-balance i'm personally not fond of. i've seen how powerful it can be though. i spose it just doesn't suit my style of play. it's more of a cantrip card than a traditional U/W control card. also you're running all those artifact lands and no thirst for knowledge. personally i'd drop jace (i've tested him a lot in my u/w landstill) for thirst. while jace can be good against control and awesome under a moat he is a clunky card. certainly not a 3-of. he just becomes force of will fodder in those numbers. also try and incorporate 1 eternal dragon. if only because it is another recurring win condition. 3 cunning wish can be quite clunky sometimes too... hate having 2 in my hand.

so perhaps

-1 cunning wish
-1 decree
-2 jace

+1 counterspell
+1 eternal dragon
+2 thirst for knowledge


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [MI] Island (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ST] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
3 [6E] Wrath of God
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [AT] Disenchant
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [IN] Tsabo's Decree
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer


Or something like that... no, seriously, isnt this supposed to be the UW Control thread? Anyways, I posted an awfully generic list, so discuss!

4eak
11-23-2008, 03:43 AM
I hope this isn't considered a necro, but I've been developing a U/W Control list, and I thought this would be a good place to post it (excuse my drunkenness--I'll edit!). I'll be happy to provide an explanation of the deck, but you should probably see the list first:

Creatures: 3
3 Eternal Dragon

CA/CQ: 10
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Cunning Wish

Permission: 10
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare/Mana Leak

Board Control: 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Abolish

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
10 Island
7 Plains
2 Tundra

Sideboard: 15
3 Abolish
2 Orim's Chant
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Wipe Away
2 Humility
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Decree of Justice
1 Spell Snare/Mana Leak


Yes, I've basically taken an MUC deck and added white board control. Most of the time I looked at splashing in MUC to be the equivalent of evolving towards Landstill (thanks to Nilly Credo for asking relevant questions in the MUC thread). This deck, however, is clearly different than UW/x Landstill options because Back to Basics is the mana-denial element of choice. Here was my reasoning for it:

Back to Basics is a very powerful mana-denial card, and in my opinion it is only rivaled by Blood Moon in raw strength. With the large quantity of "goodstuff.decs" around (e.g. Dreadstill), using Stifle/Wasteland and more specialized decks using other mana-denial elements such as Blood Moon and Sinkhole, I'm surprised I haven't seen more decks trying to abuse Back to Basics.

MUC is really the only deck to play Back to Basics in the main. Unfortunately, one of the largest problems with Back to Basics in MUC is that it has conflicts with several board control options. Board control just isn't as powerful when you pigeon-hole yourself into MUC. How do you build around Back to Basics while maintaining very strong board control options?

I think the answer could be choosing to run a 2 or 3 color deck that abuses (although may not be completely immune to) B2B. Back to Basics certainly poses problems for running a multi-color deck, but even if it affects your mana-base by just a bit, it would still be asymmetrical and remain quite powerful.

I've tried U/B builds, and while Tombstalker and Thoughtseize are sexy cards, I think the removal and answers to artifact/enchantments provided by black is lacking compared to both MUC and U/W builds. U/W control offers the strongest permanent solutions to the board that doesn't conflict with Back to Basics. This is why I think U/W decks are the best home of Back to Basics.

Card choices:

Eternal Dragon: One of best control cards I've ever had the opportunity to play. It may appear slow, but it is a card with two different roles. In the early game is the thinning, shuffle effect, and most importantly, it gets you land. In the mid-late game it generates card advantage and a recurring threat. It is a very strong card against other decks which play control cards. I consider it stronger than Morphling, and I continue to try and make this a 4x card.

Cunning Wish: I don't play 3 because I don't ever want to see more than one in my hand.

Spell Snare/Mana Leak: I'm not sure which I prefer. Depends on the metagame.

Vedalken Shackles: I play 3 because this card is broken. It is an auto-3 in any hardcore control deck that doesn't play Intuition+LtfL+Academy Ruins (which is very mana intensive). The card is scary good. Having enough Islands really isn't a problem for this deck either. Shackles is strong enough that Humility/Moat/Wrath of God are actually less important.

Abolish: Gosh, I do wish I could play Green in this deck. KGrip is hot, but B2B limits our choices (although, I've tried variations of U/W/g). Abolish is a compromise. It has a high enough CC to outplay most CB curves, and it improves tempo where you often need it most. This could goto 2x, especially as we have Eternal Dragon to feed it.

Tundra: Yes, I play it in a deck with B2B. The mana-smoothing, even through a wasteland, can be quite powerful. I wouldn't have a problem playing 4x of these, as B2B will still be asymmetrical and very powerful.


Other cards I've been trying:

Sensei's Divining top
Akroma's Vengeance
EE
Misdirection


The strength of this deck is that it has much stronger board control than MUC while still having almost the same control of the stack.

The deck has clear problems with Combo. With permission, Orim's Chant, and CotV (which I consider to be the strongest card against ANT/TES at the moment), the game is at least possible to win. However, U/W control has a good game against Landstill, Threshold, and aggro decks.



peace,
4eak

Citrus-God
11-23-2008, 04:08 AM
Why arent you running Decree of Justice? There's a reason why Keeper eschewed Morphling for Decree of Justice.

4eak
11-23-2008, 04:45 AM
@ Citrus-God


Why arent you running Decree of Justice? There's a reason why Keeper eschewed Morphling for Decree of Justice.I have DoJ in the side, but only as a 1-of. There are certain matches that I consider the card very powerful, but I sometimes find myself very underwhelmed by the card.

Eternal Dragon is already very anti-control, and Shackles is really a threat in itself against aggro decks.

What would you suggest doing?




peace,
4eak

Citrus-God
11-23-2008, 04:58 AM
@ Citrus-God

I have DoJ in the side, but only as a 1-of. There are certain matches that I consider the card very powerful, but I sometimes find myself very underwhelmed by the card.

Eternal Dragon is already very anti-control, and Shackles is really a threat in itself against aggro decks.

What would you suggest doing?




peace,
4eak

Just cut an Abolish and a EDragon for 2 DoJ. You only need two anyway. DoJs are good because you can just create fog effects so you can stabilize by casting Shackles and/or WoG.

4eak
11-23-2008, 05:24 AM
@ Citrus-God


Just cut an Abolish and a EDragon for 2 DoJ. You only need two anyway. DoJs are good because you can just create fog effects so you can stabilize by casting Shackles and/or WoG.Sounds like a plan; I will test it. As I said, there are only certain matchups where DoJ is really powerful. I think the card becomes stronger in games with Moat and/or Humility, which I don't run, but as I actually run only two WoG's, I have had occasions where I needed a few turns to stabilize (which is why I side the one DoJ in for certain matches).

My concern with removing EDragon is that the card is just so relevant throughout the game. I expect to abuse at least 1 during every game, and going to 2 really limits how often I see them.

As for Abolish, I just don't like being caught without a MD answer to artifacts/enchantments. I realize that we could rely upon CWish to get our disenchant effects, but CWish clues my opponent where as a maindeck DE gives an informationless out. I consider this the tempo version of Akroma's vengeance.

I will definitely try it out. I will also test removing the SS/Leak permission slots instead.



peace,
4eak

Nihil Credo
11-23-2008, 07:46 AM
The build is very interesting. Cunning Wish looks rather meh in there, though. You can't grab Extirpate, PotF alone isn't enough to beat burn since Eternal Dragon is slow as balls and they can just mana burn to disable the Instant. At that point you might as well straight out run Dismantling Blow instead.

Personally, I would play 2 Pithing Needles in that slot. There's plenty of targets going around, most of which you hate to see (in fact, I was about to suggest Oblivion Ring but EE@3, especially if recursed via Academy Ruins, already hurts you enough).

klaus
11-23-2008, 08:16 AM
@4eak.

With your build, you'll lose to 80% of all grave-based decks. Ichorid being the most obvious one, but there's plenty more obviously.
I'd consider 2 Tormod's Crypts + 2 Relic of Progenitus in your SB.

Also: 4 B2B seems overkill in the MD - especially since many archetypes have added 3-5 basic lands to their core.
MUC can make better use of that partial mana denial since they run Propaganda - I don't see a similar synergy in your deck.

Also Dragon as your only killcon? His cycling ability opens you even more to GGs against Extirpate - get Morphling/Meloku/Rainbow Efreet in there, somehow, I'd say.

4eak
11-23-2008, 09:41 AM
@ Nihil Credo


The build is very interesting. Cunning Wish looks rather meh in there, though.I don't like Cunning Wish. I put the card in out of sheer habit. Cunning Wish let's me build less precisely (;P). I'll be happy to test without it.

Enlightened tutor will also need to be tested I think. Alongside singleton Moat/Humility and the B2B's it could be worth it.


Personally, I would play 2 Pithing Needles in that slot.Would you play Pithing Needle over Stifle?

My original build actually had Stifle. It was decent, and I enjoyed having it in the combo match.

Perhaps:

Creatures: 4
2 Eternal Dragon
2 DoJ

CA/CQ: 10
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Enlightened Tutor (silver-bullet.dec, oy!)

Permission: 8
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Board Control: 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Humility/Moat
1 Pithing Needle

Lands: 24 (with fewer E-Dragons, this should be 24)
4 Flooded Strand
11 Island
7 Plains
2 Tundra


@ klaus


With your build, you'll lose to 80% of all grave-based decks. Ichorid being the most obvious one, but there's plenty more obviously.
I'd consider 2 Tormod's Crypts + 2 Relic of Progenitus in your SB.Aye. Ichorid is an ugly match. It is a unique combo deck in my eyes. Propaganda and/or Moat would be necessary in addition to straight graveyard hate to have a solid match against them.

Yeah, you are right, I could use some GY hate in the side.

Other GY-based decks aren't actually that terrible though. B2B really changes the game. Aggro-Loam and Threshold are the other GY-based decks I see, but these are much closer to 50/50 or better matches.


Also: 4 B2B seems overkill in the MDWithout E-tutor or additional cantrips, if B2B is worth playing at all, then it should probably be played as a 4-of. The card is that necessary. But, I will test it again at 3.


MUC can make better use of that partial mana denial since they run Propaganda - I don't see a similar synergy in your deck.Like Stifle/Wasteland, B2B isn't a complete mana denial package (I don't think there is a reliable and complete one in Legacy). But, it doesn't have to be. Even if they play a few basics, B2B wins games because it just puts you too far ahead. The synergy with Propaganda is not what makes B2B worth playing.

I'm not against running Propaganda. But, one of the reasons I dislike permanant-based MUC versions (the version that plays Propaganda) is that they don't actually deal with the threat, and often, that threat comes down too early. Splashing gives you a much stronger early game, and this is why propaganda, even with its synergy, is not as necessary. White offers plenty of permanent solutions, which is why I've removed the more temporary answer of Propaganda in favor of white board control. I've seen people pay to swing their Goyf through propaganda too many times.

A large number of decks I play against are multi-colored aggro-control decks with a blue-based shell and a disruptive land destruction suite (Stifle/Wasteland). This deck has a better match than both Landstill and MUC against those decks. B2B is amazing against most of the DTB, but you have to live long enough to take advantage of it.

This deck retains MUC's near-immunity to almost all competitive forms of mana-denial, but also maintains solid board control through tempo-oriented control cards like StP which prove invaluable in a format that is overrun with decks that often only have 8-12 creatures to begin with.


Also Dragon as your only killcon? His cycling ability opens you even more to GGs against Extirpate - get Morphling/Meloku/Rainbow Efreet in there, somehow, I'd say.Yeah, perhaps I need 1 other win condition besides Dragon+Shackles+DoJ. Exalted Angel is a common choice, but I'm not too impressed with it.

Morphling is very mana intensive, specifically, the U cost on its primary abilities could be a problem, but he merits testing. Meloku is a great card, but we've already got a ton of board control. Efreet suffers even worse than Morphling in color requirements; he soaks up the blue mana too much.

Have any other suggestions? Or, do you think DoJ would be fine?





peace,
4eak

Mono_Thematic
07-12-2009, 05:13 PM
Has anyone considered Windreaver as a kill-con. Before you bust a knee-jerk reaction and say that its a weak-sauce Morphling, first consider that Windreaver survives Wrath (pretty effing key IMO) and is easier to cast in a multicolor deck.
In my UW deck I had been running Crovax as a kill-con, because it, too, survives everything. But I was getting frustated with a lack of Blue cards to pitch to FoW. So Windreaver is my current compromise, but would like the communities input before I continue...
Here's the maindeck:
Land:
4 fetch, 4 duals, 4 shock-lands, 8 plains, 3 islands
Instants:
4 Impulse
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 StP
4 Counterspell
4 FoW
Sorceries
2 WoG
Enchantments
4 O-Ring
4 Runed Halo
2 Moat
Kill-con
2 Elspeth
3 Windreaver

Editted cause I forgot Moat

beastman
07-12-2009, 07:47 PM
I dont think a creature is the best kind of win condition for this deck. Sacred mesa and elspeth are just better.

LostButSeeking
07-13-2009, 09:22 AM
I dont think a creature is the best kind of win condition for this deck. Sacred mesa and elspeth are just better.

I'm going to second Elspeth here, from my experience with her in landstill. I know that she looks like a bad bitterblossom, or even a bad mobilization, and sometimes she is, but more often she's actually a 4/4 angel with flying that comes back after removal.

Mono_Thematic
07-13-2009, 03:19 PM
Recheck my list and you'll see that I already run Elspeth, to whom I concur is the best white kill-con ever made. She's not a kjeldoran-outpost/mobilization knock-off. She's an unkillable Air Elemental.
Unfortunately, she's not enough. Hence my search for kill-cons #3-5, and my interest in Windreaver.

As for Sacred Mesa: I've run Mobilization in a Moat-less form of this deck with much success, so I know that Sacred Mesa would work fine. But I'm trying to increase the number of Blue cards in order to make my FoW's more reliable.

Another consideration of mine is Genju of the Falls. Its essentially a man-land that is immune to Wastelands (tho it is succeptible to CB.) Since my meta has much more Wasteland than CB, and Genju can be dumped to FoW (unlike other man-lands) I think it could be pretty good.

Again I'd like to hear from anyone with experience using these cards before I proceed with either Windreaver or Genju.

LostButSeeking
07-13-2009, 03:46 PM
Recheck my list and you'll see that I already run Elspeth, to whom I concur is the best white kill-con ever made. She's not a kjeldoran-outpost/mobilization knock-off. She's an unkillable Air Elemental. Unfortunately, she's not enough. Hence my search for kill-cons #3-5, and my interest in Windreaver.


Sorry about that, I saw beastman's opinion and didn't bother to check your list for myself.

I haven't played a lot of windreaver. I played it in draft once (it owned faces) and then I played it a couple of times casually, but I never really liked it because it was such a huge mana suck. It requires significant, constant investment to do . . . anything.

I would look into stealing mono-blue control's win-conditions (the ones that survived the M10 changes anyway . . . poor Morphling) and look into shackles or Call the Skybreaker. CtS is expensive, but it's a one time thing (unlike Windreaver) and, like Elspeth, returns after removal. It also kills Tombstalker, which is huge. Everyone knows how good shackles is.

Citrus-God
07-13-2009, 04:44 PM
I got bored of Landstill, so I messed around with UW Control instead, and I'm not afraid to say that it's better than Landstill in many ways. Here's what I have so far. I can't say I've done very much, but Boseiju so far has been amazing. I also get the option of tapping out against decks like Merfolk and get around Counterbalance super effectively. Very cool card. Here's my list


// Mana 25
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Plains
4 Island


// Spells 36
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Etched Oracle
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God


// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Path to Exile
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Return to Dust/Fracturing Gust
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance


So far, Etched Oracle and 3 FoFs replacing 4 Standstills has been amazing. Standstill has never been great for me because Merfolk players will Spell Snare it (especially if they know you run Wastelands), you cant play them in a losing position, you board them out frequently and you cant cast them over a Counterbalance without expecting it to be countered.

But the best part of this build is Counterbalance. Sure, you could run Counterbalance and Top in the board with the old Standstill build, but will your mana base be consistent enough to drop Counterbalance on Turn 2? Definitely not. But this build has been amazing so far, and I'm keeping it like this. Elspeth helps finish games faster, makes FoF piles scarier and is multifunctional as both a control card and threat.

rockout
07-13-2009, 05:02 PM
@Citrus: How is your list any better than landstill? Just because you run cb? I guess I don't see it.

Citrus-God
07-13-2009, 08:28 PM
@Citrus: How is your list any better than landstill? Just because you run cb? I guess I don't see it.

Just a better mana base, I make less mulligans, I dont have to sideout my draw engine against match ups like Merfolk and Vial Goblins, and FoF is outside of Counterbalance range.

Those reasons may seem small (which they are), but I'm not objectively telling you all that this deck is better than Landstill in a sense where this deck can win more games for you in the long run. If anything, it's a thing of preference for me (subjective) and I hate to mulligan. Oh, and I hate it when Thrash Spell Snares my Standstills; it makes me so angry!

But the cons are definitely less random wins against random bad decks just by resolving Standstill and it's harder to play with FoF because you have to make more decisions like picking piles, casting, and deciding to either play around or into Force Spike effects and such. Also, FoF is hugely interactive, so more headaches.


But I'm liking Top. I dont like it in the maindeck because of the lack of room and I dont want to cut Blue cards, but they're awesome because you just side out your less important cards for them post board (they always get boarded in). You don't always board in Counterbalance, but if you do, it's usually against Aggro Loam, Survival, Goyf Sligh, Zoo, opposing Control decks, Vial Goblins (not kidding), Mighty Quinn, and such. Basically, decks that arent well equipped to fight a heavier CC range Counterbalance deck.

Mono_Thematic
07-19-2009, 01:50 PM
So I think I found an answer to my conundrum (see post #31) concerning a lack of Blue spells to pitch to FoW while still maintaining a resilient Kill-Con. But the answer is sketchy and could use some feedback, so w/o further adue:

-4x Hallowed Fountain (U/W shockland)
+4x Fieldmist Borderpost

The deck looks like this now:
Mana: 24
4x Duals
4x Fetchlands
5x Island
6x Plains
1x Mistveil Plains
4x Fieldmist Borderpost
Removal:
4x StP
4x O-Ring
4x Wrath of God (maybe 2x WoG and 2x EE)
Defense:
4x Runed Halo
Counters:
4x Counterspell
4x FoW
Draw:
4x Impulse
4x Accumulated Knowledge
Kill-con:
2x Elspeth
2x Mobilization

Fieldmist Borderpost increases my #Blue spells to 20 (including FoW), and functions as a White permanent for Mistveil Plain to allow me to recur my Kill-Cons (not much can exile a PW or Enchantment, so GY recursion should be sufficient). But this leads to 5 mana sources that come into play tapped, which is pretty grim.
So what do we think?

kinda
03-15-2010, 09:12 PM
So I used to play UW control in standard...and now that i have flooded strands I want to make a UW control deck. So what do you think?


Instants: 17
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 mana leak
4 swords
2 fact or fiction

Sorceries: 2
2 Armageddon

Artifacts: 5
3 crucible of worlds
2 Wrath of God

Enchantments: 6
2 ghostly prison
4 propaganda

Creatures: 3
3 Baneslayer Angel

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace Mind Sculptor

Land: 25
4 floodedstrand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 wu dual
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Mishra’s Factory

Sideboard:
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's divining Top
2x Disenchant
2x Meddling Mage
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus

Moonlight
03-15-2010, 09:29 PM
Your list is a combination from Landstill, Stax and Countertop.
Have you test it?

kinda
03-15-2010, 10:21 PM
No, I was seeing if anyone would point out glaring problems before I proxied it up.

EDIT: Deck updated. I playtested against various Bant decks and Zoo, it seemed to do pretty well.

grahf
03-16-2010, 12:03 AM
I appreciate going homebrew... but I think what Moonlight was saying is that your deck is pulling itself in multiple, mutually exclusive directions. You might want to look at the structure of the decks he mentioned for inspiration. For instance, playing Armageddon is counterproductive to reaching 4-5 mana to cast bombs, and holding mana open to counter spells. Also, 10 colorless lands are going to make it tough to get WW and UU casting costs.

kinda
03-19-2010, 06:54 PM
Ok so I looked it over again and decided to correct some problems, mainly mana leak...on that note fact or fiction seems subpar but it still digs five. I still think armageddon is ok with 4cc spells...

Instants: 14
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 swords
2 fact or fiction

Sorceries: 6
2 Armageddon
4 Ponder

Artifacts: 5
3 crucible of worlds
2 Smokestack

Enchantments: 8
2 ghostly prison
4 propaganda
2 Humility

Planeswalkers: 4
1 Jace Mind Sculptor
3 Elspeth

Land: 23
4 floodedstrand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra’s Factory
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Flagstones of Trokair

Sideboard:
4 Trinisphere
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mana Leak
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Llawan Cephalid Empress

Some Guy
03-19-2010, 07:05 PM
you should drop the x2 FoF and add x3 spell pierce. yes , I know thats 61 cards.

The Big Ragu
12-26-2010, 09:57 AM
Good stuff.

Iron Buddha
10-15-2011, 10:01 AM
I've already posted the deck in the budget forum, because I personnally can't afford the manabase. But hoping to get some feedback in a non-budget context, and since a classic U/W control thread exists, I post it here, too. Well if you're interested in the old 4cc sweeper bombs + FoF deck, this is the deck for you.


// 25
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Eternal Dragon
5 Island
3 Plain
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Mishra's Factory

// 14
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Decree of Justice
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Humility

// 21
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare

SB:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Negate
1 Path to Exile
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Purify the Grave
1 Tormod's Crypt


Boarding plans:

Storm (wish-target: Mindbreak Trap)
-1 Humility, -3 WoG, -1 StP
+2 Negate, +1 E. Tutor, +1 Canonist, +1 REB

Classic Control (wish-targets: REB, WSZ)
-3 WoG, -1 Humility
+2 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +1 FoF

Stoneblade Control (wish-targets: REB, RoD, WSZ)
-1 StP, -2 WoG
+2 Negate, +1 FoF

NO-Progenitus (wish-targets: REB, WSZ)
-3 Spell Snare
+2 Negate, +1 FoF

Reanimator
-3 EE, -3 Wish, -3 WoG
+1 E. Tutor, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +3 Purify the Grave, +1 FoF, +2 Negate, +1 REB

Dredge (wish-target: Purify the Grave)
-3 Spell Snare, -1 CS
+1 E. Tutor, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +2 Purify the Grave


card by card analysis
4 Brainstorm: self-evident
3 FoF & 1 Humility: most powerful cards of the deck.
3 Wish: Blue's Vindicate (if you run REB as I do), but Wish generates CA later on and thus fill the role of CA, and not the role of a one for one trade.
3 DoJ: comparable to Snapcaster Mage, flash creature and instant card. But Snapcaster Mage is not suited as a primary standalone win-con, it's only a supplemental win-con, whereas DoJ is a lethal force packed into one single card.
4 Mishra's Factory: DoJ for 2-3 soldiers is not threatening, but if you add a Mishra's Factory you have a four turn clock. It's the perfect supplemental win-con for this deck: has synergy with Humility (unlike Snapcaster Mage) and you can accumulate them over time. M. Factory + DoJ is very similiar to a combo-kill, since it kills within two turns out of nowhere.
4 StP: Some cards are better than other cards.
4 FoW: speeds the deck up (= lowers the mana-curve tremendously), enables tempo plays (forcing through Humility or a WoG that trades two for one), negates opposing CA-spells. I don't board them out against Merfolk: they may not have CA-spells, but the other two points are still valid.
3 EE: Wasteland-resistant and color friendly unlike Vindicate; denies equipment-based CA strategies, which is a big part of why this deck has inevitability in every matchup.
3 Snare: counters Hymn, SFM, SCM, Dark Confidant, and Tarmogoyf.
4 Counterspell: solid turn two play; very efficient in the lategame.
1 Eternal Dragon: 25th land, back-up win-con in case I board out my Wishes.


Wish-board:
REB: to deal with Jace TMS; another counter against combo
WSZ: back-up win con against Surgical Extraction
FoF: transforms Wish into a source of CA. In order to get CA out of Wish you could also fetch WSZ or E. Tutor for Humility. But E. Tutor for Humility is only an option in certain matchups and WSZ is rather a lategame CA-source, whereas FoF is rather a mid-game CA-source.
If I board out my Wishes, I usually board in the fourth FoF in order to maintain a sufficient draw-engine.
PtE: must-have target against Tempo decks and Merfolk
2 Negate: come in against many decks – Jace TMS, Storm, NO-Progenitus, Stoneblade Control, Reanimator, random decks.
RoD: artefacts/enchantments
PotF: Burn
Mindbreak Trap: Storm
E. Tutor: must-have, fetches Canonist, Crypt and Humility.
Ethersworn Canonist: transforms E. Tutor into Storm-hate
3 Purify the Grave: my grave-hate of choice, no lifeloss unlike Surgical Extraction, which is relevant, as I'm the control-player; discard resistant (Reanimator runs Thoughtseize), and counter resistant to some extent.
T. Crypt: tutorable grave-hate, fast enough to deal with a turn two Reanimate unlike Relic of Progenitus


If you have any questions about the deck, I'm happy to answer them.

JadeOberg
10-18-2011, 06:57 PM
Peering through the forum and I do not see a dedicated thread to Scepter-Chant. This seems like the closest thing. Anyone experiment with any lists using this combo? I've been fooling around with a list recently, testing strong right now, tournament report below.

4 Isochron Scepter
1 EE
1 SDT

4 Orim's Chant
3 Fire/Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor

2 Ancestral Visions

2 JTMS
2 Elspeth

1 plateau
1 Volc
4 tundra
2 plains
4 islands
1 academy ruins
9 fetches

So you win via the planeswalkers or a scepter with fire/ice and slowly burn em down after you have the lock.

SB

1 ET
1 Wheel of sun and moon
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Propaganda
1 Canonist
1 EE
3 WOG
4 Spell pierce
1 ruined halo
1 pithing needle

First time piloting the deck...really small 9 man

U/W Fae/Stoneblade

Game one I die to mutavaults because EE is not pernicious deed
Game two he scoops to a Jace early
Game three I stick a Scepter with a STP and get an elspeth down. I'm able to chump long enough to STP all of his threats (2 mutavaults clique, batterskull, SFM x2, SSS) while sticking a scepter with a counterspell, then fly over with soldiers

1-0 2-1

Mono Black

Game one I stick a scepter/Fire/ice and he scoops cuz all his dudes are 2/2's
Game two I stick a Scepter chant turn 2

2-0 4-1

Tezzeret Affinity

Game one he Tezzerets me for lethal on turn 4
Game two I ET for a scepter and lock him down on turn three
Game three I have the scepter chant and he scoops on turn two

3-0 6-2

Dead Guy Ale
Game one we go back and forth, he plays tempo with tidehollows and hymn, I end up swording his sculler to stick the jace that was under it and he scoops
Game two...I keep a greedy hand with one land...the only other land I draw in 7 turns gets wasted
game three Good game of magic, decent back and forth, I was one turn away from locking him out on two occasions but he always layed his seal of cleansing one turn in time!

3-1 7-4

Excited to be playing something new, any thoughts would be appreciated...Suprisingly straight forward list to play...Need to have that FOW backup against blue decks.

Iron Buddha
12-23-2011, 06:42 AM
Once in a while I post my latest iteration of budget U/W control usually not getting a lot of responses. In fact I've almost given up posting it here. But then I feel like writing about the deck.
While it's a budget deck on paper, it's not in reality. My newest invention is to incorporate Chrome Mox. Incorporating Chrome Mox into a control shell has been done before, but fell out of sight shortly. It seems to be a fashion disliking everything that makes CDA (cutting FoW in a control deck, wtf?!). Just compare Chrome Mox to a Mulligan: It is very well possible to win games with five or even four card starting hands. The CDA of Chrome Mox is made up by an absurdly high amount of bombs. Turn three Humility, Wrtah of God, Fact or Fiction? That's really fun. The other feature of the deck is a Wasteland-immune manabase. This originally has been a budget consideration, but turned out to be one the deck's greatest strengths. The strong manabase synergizes with high-cc bombs.

To sum it up:
The deck utilizes Chrome Mox,
runs an absurdly high amount of bombs (you may argue that other bombs like Jace, Elspeth, SCM, SFM are better, but if you ask me I don't think so)
and has a Wasteland-immune manabase.
These are the features of the deck.

Cunning Wish
The most aggressive color is red with its burn spells. While Wish is generally considered slow, it's absolutely not slow against the most aggressive color, that is red, because of Pulse of the Fields.

Wish is technically very similiar to SCM, except that it's a turn slower and you don't get a dude. Nevertheless it has some significant advantages: First of all it synergizes with Humility, whereas SCM contradicts Humility, secondly it gets Pulse of the Fields that stops hyperaggressive decks (red with burn) on the spot, and of course silverbullet like preboard gravehate ist nice to have, something that SCM doesn't offer.

4x Decree of Justice
You need the full set in order to make Humility work, since this deck doesn't have Mishra's Factory.
While WoG works nicely with Humility, it doesn't put you ahead dealing with upcoming threats preemptively. DoJ does. Assuming you create more soldier tokens than they have humiliated threats, you get ahead and can finally end the game.

3 Engineered Explosives. The reason why people prefer PtE and Lighting Bolt nowadays is SCM. But if you play control without SCM (but with Humility), you prefer EE.


// 25
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
6 Island
11 Plain
4 Chrome Mox

// 19
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Engineered Explosives

// 16
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Decree of Justice
3 Cunning Wish
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility

SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Purify the Grave
1 Path to Exile
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Eternal Dragon

paeng4983
12-24-2011, 06:21 AM
We had our xmas legacy tournament awhile ago.
We only had it four rounds for we dont want to celebrate our xmas eve on the road.
I won all my matches.
I faced the following decks;
NO bant 2-0
mono black control 2-0
rb goblins 2-0
elves 2-1

:-)

Snapcaster was my MVP althroughout the tournament.
stoneforge into batterskull is awesome!

sarapfish
12-25-2011, 05:25 AM
@paeng How did your list go, if I may ask? :) Happy holidays!

paeng4983
12-25-2011, 07:46 PM
@sarapfish, here's what i used last weekend's game.

TJB_R4_uw_control

MD:
4 stoneforge mystic
3 snapcaster mage
3 vendillion clique
3 spellstutter sprite
4 brainstorm
4 sword of plowshare
4 force of will
3 spell snare
2 counterspell
1 baterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
1 elspeth, the kinght errand
3 jace the mind sculptor

4 mutavault
1 riptide laboratory
4 tundra
1 plains
2 island
4 marsh flats
4 scalding tarn
2 wasteland

SB
1 relic of progenitus
2 surgical extraction
3 spell pierce
2 wrath of god
3 path to exile
1 oblivion ring
2 meddling mage
1 disenchant

Piceli89
12-25-2011, 08:10 PM
Basically, Stoneblade.

sdematt
12-25-2011, 08:59 PM
So you played Stoneblade? Awesome stuff. But, that's not this thread.

Merry Christmas!

-Matt

Einherjer
12-26-2011, 03:53 AM
No its more like FairyStoneblade...Still StoneBlade :)

Merry Xmas

serendib
03-30-2012, 08:59 AM
I'm testing this deck at the moment:

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
8 island
3 plains
1 swamp
1 tundra
1 karakas

4 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
2 morphling (anti-planeswalker card)
2 jace, the mind scuptor

4 brainstorm
4 preordain

2 back to basics

4 force of will
4 counterspell

4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 wrath of god
2 vedalken shackles

side:
3 spell pierce
3 meddling mage
3 kitchen finks
2 trinket mage
2 tormod's crypt
1 pithing neelde
1 dismantling blow


as for my test at the moment :

- RUG Delver is a great match up (last 2 days I made a 10-1 test)
- GW Zenith is good match up
- UW Stoneblade is difficult but not impossible, I would guess a 45 % win vs 55 % loss
- RANDOM deck are very good match up
- COMBO decks are bad match up pre side, good post side

looking for feedback

cschacal
04-10-2012, 08:18 PM
I consider the morphlings and wrath of god too slow. Why no Spell Snares?. I'd include one more engineered explosives and another Jace. Also I'd remove the preodains for some top's. Why do you include kitchen finks? I'd use surgical extraction instead of the tormod's or purify the grave because they are good targets for the snapcasters.

This is my current list (still under development)

Creatures: 6

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells: 32

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Force of Will

Lands:

4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Path to Exile
1 Purify the Grave
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth
4 Spell Pierce
3 Vindicate

I have been testing versions of this deck with back to basics, wrath of god, energy field, etc. I also tested several wish targets and I think this is the best version. I have recently changed one underground sea and an island for the wastelands and one Tundra with a Karakas. These last changes need to be tested as I am running only 22 lands and maybe these changes will make the manabase a bit unstable but the weakpoints of the deck were that I had no way to deal with problematic lands and the opponent planeswalkers. The wastelands wil help with the first and the echoing truth as a cunning wish target and the vindicates with the second.

Please, give me some suggestions :tongue:

serendib
04-15-2012, 08:03 PM
yesterday I tested the deck in turnament and I top8 with 4-1-1 swiss, Then I lost in quarter finals vs GW maverik cause to bad draws + bad playing.

same list as post # 56

little different side
3 meddling mage
3 spell pierce
3 kitchen finks
2 elspeth KE (I'm not happy with them at all)
2 surgical extraction
1 dismantling blow
1 disenchant

I got paired with:
rug delver: 2-0
nik fit: 1-1
rug delver: 2-1
rug delver: 2-0
thopters: 1-2
ad nauseam storm: 2-1
top8: maverik 0-2

quick thoughts:

-The deck was really consistent
-preordain awesome with brainstorm
-I loved the counter package. I never felt need of spell snare
-Morphling and back to basics killed opponents most of times
-I was not very happy with shackles, I will give Gideon Jura a test in their slots
-Wrath of god very big card

EDIT:
mainboard: -2 shackles +2 Gideon Jura -1 island + 1polluted delta
new sideboard:
4 shriekmaw
3 meddling mage
3 spell pierce
3 kitchen finks
2 disenchant effect

The Treefolk Master
04-15-2012, 08:13 PM
Has anyone considered adding Trinket Mage. Something like:

MD:

2 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle?
1 Seat of the Synod (Anti-Choke)

SB:

1 Cursed Scroll
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Meekstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Elixir of Inmortality

Something along those lines. I'm not 100% sure it's worth it though.

serendib
04-20-2012, 05:52 AM
I predict a new metagame coming which sees:

- lot of burn decks (mono R, UR & URW)
- some combo using Reforge The Soul (the miracle Wheel of Fortune)
- some deck still present in metagame (RUG, GW, UWx)

so, I want lifegain maindeck and more creatures to be able to well use Temporal Mastery (new miracle time walk) and a control build which looks like the last I'm using (I recently top8ed with)

that's what I'm thinking:

4 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
3 misty rainforest
7 island
3 plains
1 forest
1 tundra
1 karakas

TOT = 22 lands (wasteland proof manabase because I think opponent wasteland + opponent temporal mastery would hurt a lot)

4 snapcaster mage
4 jace, the mind sculptor
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons ( the new 5/5 hexproff )

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 temporal mastery

4 force of will
4 counterspell

4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 terminus

side:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 spell pierce
2 meddling mage
2 surgical extraction
2 krosan grip
2 timely reinforcements

what you think ?

Malakai
05-01-2012, 08:16 AM
The list below constitutes a "budget" list, mainly due to the lack of the double splash for EE (and thus no EE). I'm not sure if Jace is better than Elspeth, so I went with the one that wins the 'walker fight. Planeswalkers in general seem to be poorly positioned as long as Lingering Souls has a heavy presence in the metagame.

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Snapcaster Mage -- The reason I'm here instead of the Landstill thread.
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Terminus -- This card just seems insane.
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cunning Wish -- Could be too slow
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Riptide Laboratory
3 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains

Does this look like the right track going forward, or am I crazy?

The Treefolk Master
05-01-2012, 03:56 PM
I'm assuming this is you Serendib (Maffezoli => Maffe on Mtgsalvation I pressume):

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8185&iddeck=59700

Have you tested Gideon?

I personally consider Temporal Mastery to be overrated, but only time will tell...

I do love Terminus though, it seems an almost strict upgrade to Wrath in this deck...

From your last list, I'd be looking at puting V. Clique back in there...

I must admit I'm not sold on the Big Finisher approach (be it Sigarda, Morgphling, whatever). It feels like we're playing the control decks from a few years ago, and I'm not completely sure it is good enough. You cannot argue with results though...

Btw, should this approach be good enough, Sigarda is most likely the best option available (good luck getting rid of her).

On the other hand, black gives us a few more SB options than green, be it Perish, Vindicate, Extirpate, Discard, etc.

I'd also be looking at fitting Back to Basics back in. I think you're overrating Temporal Mastery's impact on the format, I don't see us dying to Mastery + Multiple wastelands effects as you said. Hence, the biggest benefit of running a mana base full of basics is to crap all over the Tier deck's face by landing Back to Basics.

Any thoughts?

serendib
05-01-2012, 06:36 PM
I'm assuming this is you Serendib (Maffezoli => Maffe on Mtgsalvation I pressume):

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8185&iddeck=59700

Have you tested Gideon?

I personally consider Temporal Mastery to be overrated, but only time will tell...

I do love Terminus though, it seems an almost strict upgrade to Wrath in this deck...

From your last list, I'd be looking at puting V. Clique back in there...

I must admit I'm not sold on the Big Finisher approach (be it Sigarda, Morgphling, whatever). It feels like we're playing the control decks from a few years ago, and I'm not completely sure it is good enough. You cannot argue with results though...

Btw, should this approach be good enough, Sigarda is most likely the best option available (good luck getting rid of her).

On the other hand, black gives us a few more SB options than green, be it Perish, Vindicate, Extirpate, Discard, etc.

I'd also be looking at fitting Back to Basics back in. I think you're overrating Temporal Mastery's impact on the format, I don't see us dying to Mastery + Multiple wastelands effects as you said. Hence, the biggest benefit of running a mana base full of basics is to crap all over the Tier deck's face by landing Back to Basics.

Any thoughts?

Yes that's me.

The structure I like to play a control deck is the following:

- 22 lands (just 2 non basics, 9 fetch, 11 basics)

- 10 slot for aggressive package _ Vendilion needs to be maindeck again: 4 snap 3 jace 2 sigarda 1 vendilion seems ok to.

- 8 slots for cantrips : 4 brainstorm + 4 preordain (with no temporal mastery) / 4 ponder (with temporal mastery)

- 8 counters : just hard counters 4 fow + 4 counterspell

- 9 remouval spells : 4 stp 3 e.e. 2 wrath of god / terminus

- 3 open slot which can be : 3 temporal mastery or 2 back to basics + 1 open slot

- I'm not sure Yet about temporal mastery, but he deserves tests.
- Entreat the Angels needs to be tested too
- as for Gideon in my old list you linked: I made some tests but I've not come to a conclusion. both shackles as gideon are good cards.

As for your doubt about using "finisher cards" as Morphling or the new Sigarda:
I use 2 of them to win control mirrors (Sigarda eats any planeswalker on earth), while I usually kill aggro via jace or something, not needing a "winning condition"
Most control decks, especially hard control decks, usually lose to elspeth. A 5/X shroud and flying creature solves the problem.

cschacal
05-03-2012, 06:49 PM
The problem with Sigarda is that she costs 5 mana and one of them is green. I don't see her in a control deck

Malakai
05-07-2012, 02:24 PM
The problem with Sigarda is that she costs 5 mana and one of them is green. I don't see her in a control deck

She also doesn't stabilize, unlike something like Morphling, Meloku, or Baneslayer Angel, both of which can be offensive and defensive at the same time.

cschacal
05-15-2012, 07:56 PM
My current list:

4 Force of Will
4 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Jace the Mindsculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Sensei Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
1 Vedalken shackles
3 Cunning Wish

5 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
2 Undeground Sea

Sideboard:

1 Surgical extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Path to exile
1 Rest for the weary
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Minbreak Trap
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Noxious Revival
1 Terminus

Iron Buddha
05-17-2012, 08:58 AM
I think you guys fail to see that U/W control is supposed to be a hate deck against Maverick and Tempo Thresh (in general beating creature decks). Being a hate-deck (metagame deck) is the incentive to go U/W classic control and not U/W Stoneblade. That being said, if you want to beat Tempo Thresh on a consistent basis it is absolutely crucial to be able to answer a T1 Delver as efficient as possible. If you only run 4 StP and 4 Fow, then you're not better than Stoneblade, and the matchup is thus not better, so you can just stick to Stoneblade. Secondly, if you want to beat Maverick you need board-sweepers. I think board-sweepers are the best answers to Maverick, because they handle Thrun and Mother of Runes, and it's almost always going to be 1 : 2+ with all those small guys they have. And last but not least it's a strong manabase that is key if you want to beat them, because they both have a mana-denial theme: either it's Stifle + Wasteland + Ponder, or it's Thalia + Wasteland + GSZ.

cschacal
05-19-2012, 01:41 AM
I updated my list removing the trinket mages and adding a black splash. Now I have zealous persecution as wish target so adding this to the Terminus plan I think is enough to deal with delver, mothers, etc

Iron Buddha
05-20-2012, 11:52 AM
My concern is that you can't deal with Delver, Mom efficiently. For reference, I'm running 2 PtE and 3 EE, because they can deal with them on the spot, and not just on turn 3 or even later.

rnightingale
05-22-2012, 02:27 AM
wow! UW Control is currently performing great with Miracle Cards. Entreat the Angel gives you more optional wincondition while Terminus completely wipes the board.... :eek:

mordraid
05-31-2012, 05:03 PM
I've been toying with UW control for a while and i've decided to give it another shot after terminus and the miracle company were war ready !

Miracle cards needs to be set up in order to work well. The best cards to set-up the miracle without hurting your devellopement so much are: sensei's divining top, brainstorm, ponder and jace the mind sculptor. All of those cards can be played in UW control without doing any harm.

Miracle are insanely powerful when cast for their cheap costs. Terminus, entreat the angels and temporal mastery are the ones that shines the most. Banishing stroke, devastation tide and vanishing being mostly bad cards in legacy standard.

At first i'd only put 4 terminus in the deck. The more and more i was playing, the more i saw that miracle wasn't hard to obtain. Then, i decided to swap 1 terminus for an entreat the angels. The results were plain good, giving almost always 2+ angels when cast.

Finally, i decided to give temporal mastery a shot ( i was one of those who think it was bad). I had 1 copy at first but finding myself wanting more and more, just like a good drug would do ! , so i added another copy. Temporal mastery must be combined with something in order to be great, otherwise, it's just a situational explore. Geist of saint traft provides just what temporal mastery needs. Geist of saint traft is also pretty good with elspeth, knight errant. Dropping a bomb like Geist of saint traft after a board swipe is just what control needs to win.

Here's the list i've been working on thus far. It's not a definite decklist but it's been very good in testing. I've tested against maverick, hulksmash, griselbrand reanimator, burn, RUG delver.

Decklist:

Creatures:
4x snapcaster mage
3x geist of saint traft

Instants:
4x brainstorm
4x swords to plowshares
4x force of will
3x counterspell

sorceries:
1x entreat the angels
3x terminus
2x temporal mastery
3x ponder

artifacts:
3x sensei's divining top
1x vedalken shackles

plainswalkers:
3x jace, the mind sculptor
2x elspeth, knight errant

lands:
4x tundra
4x flooded strands
3x misty rainforest
4x island
1x karakas
3x mishra's factory
1x wasteland

Sideboard:
3x ethersworn canonist
3x cursed totem
3x surgical extraction
3x spell pierce
3x meddling mage

menace13
06-05-2012, 09:41 PM
It's Alive!!! !

Really, I just couldn't think of anything without resorting to miracle puns. Anyway:

Top 8 at SCG Columbus

2 Banishing Stroke
3 Temporal Mastery
3 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
3 Spell Snare
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
1 Humility
4 Force of Will
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
3 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Negate
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Counterbalance
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Culling Scales
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility

Thorondor
06-06-2012, 06:03 AM
I think we need to kind of merge these two threads, because same things are discussed in two threads, try to keep it in one. Maybe it belongs more here, since it is not much about superfriends more about control with 3 jaces.

Take a look:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20529-PRIMER-U-W-x-Countertop-Superfriends/page17