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Willoe
11-26-2007, 06:23 PM
even though the banning of goblin recruiter in legacy was a bad one for the food chain goblins deck, can food chain still be done? Recently, the evoke mechanic from lorwyn has shown some popularity in standard. Why not abuse the ability to a maximum? Using it with food chain not only nets you the effect, but also gives you mana if you eat it in response to its own sacrifical. And yes, you can pay evoke costs with the mana you get from food chain. I'm just saying this to avoid these questions :P anyway, i built a decklist:

the combo piece:
4 Food Chain

utility:
3 Shriekmaw
4 Mulldrifter
4 Fierce Empath
2 Ęthersnipe
4 wall of blossoms

tutors:
4 drift of phantasms

accel:
4 chrome mox

the kill:
1 grozoth
1 myojin of life's web
1 nullstone gargoyle
1 blazing archon
1 spirit of the night

minor protection/hosing:
4 thorn of amethyst

lands:
2 ancient tomb
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 bayou
4 wooded foothills

that would be sixty cards. I'll sum up the very wierd card choices:

food chain - a guy on another forum said that this is just a bad version of aluren. Hmm, he's maybe right... however, if this can be developed in a good way, I'm sure it can be nearly as good! The advantage is, that nearly everyone isn't expecting the deck, I would not say it's truly rogue, but still.

shriekmaw: provides as card advantage as well as incredible acceleration if you got the food chain.

mulldrifter - insane with food chain, or just plain good. Draws into the needed cards.

fierce empath - needed to get the grozoth, which fetches the myojin and the rest of the kill that gives me a lethal army on the next turn. Haven't found a good way to give the creatures haste, maybe Flame-Kin Zealot, but that one cannot be fetched either with drift of phantasms or fierce empath.

ęthersnipe: pretty good as a fetching with fierce empath as it serves for seven mana. You also get to bounce a dangerous goyf, so that's just good.

wall of blossoms: blocks nasty critters, and draws. That's awesome.

drift of phantasms: needed to get the fierce empath and the food chain.

chrome mox: dropping food chain a turn earlier is very good play. On the other hand, it's just mana if you need one to get the grozoth into play.

the kill creatures: grozoth produces a mega tutor as well as a 9/9 body. the creature itself is prety pointless as food chain will eat it to play a myojin of life's web. Nullstone Gargoyle protects against a wrath which can be a lose condition, and blazing archon protects me from swarm as well as ichorid combo (I don't expect to win that matchup anyway, it's way too fast).

thorn of amethyst: as nearly every spell is a creature with some nifty ability, this can be good in delaying the opponent by at turn or two, if needed.

mana base: I honestly don't know if it's shaky or not, ancient omb can drop food chain one turn earlier, which can be important.

playing the deck: I haven't done that yet as I do not own all the needed cards. Else, it's about holding the line with some evoking and defenses until you draw the combo.

Going off (disadvantages): fierce empath is fetching a 9cc card, which is grozoth. The fierce empath removes for four mana, and from that point, It is important that I have an evoke creature in my hand. Using three of the four mana on an ęthersnipe isn't enough, so I need at least two other creatures. I've been considering mournwhelk or faultgrinder instead to produce more mana. A bringer creature could also do, as food chain nets me mana of any color.

The why not section:

No protection??? - No, I'm not running enough blue cards to could consistently play a FoW, the only thing I can run is daze, and daze's not that good in turn 3. I'm thinking about venser, shaper savant or mystic snake.

No goyf??? - No, this deck simply don't uses the yard at all, so putting goyfs in MD is stupid due to the reliance on my opponent's yard.

Is this a good deck or does it suck? - Honestly, I don't know. I've been goldfishing a couple of times, and it consistently throws in all the 9cc creatures about turn 2-4. That's pretty good I think. So, any card suggestions or thoughts about the deck? Any feedback is very welcome!

-Peter

Ps. I also have another decklist that's built around storm spells, tell me if I should post it.

hi-val
11-26-2007, 06:25 PM
This is a REALLY interesting concept. For sheer mana production, it probably doesn't get better than Ingot Chewer.

Happy Gilmore
11-26-2007, 06:38 PM
Mournwelk is perfect for this deck. It is fetchable with Empath and generates card advantage. It turns a hand of Foodchain +Empath into 8 mana right off the bat, that way you need only 1 other creature to keep it going.

You could go off with just foodchain in play and Empath +Drift in hand if you could find a way to convert one blue mana to a green mana. Or you could simply use Mournwelk for 4 mana, make 8 green, cast Empath, sack for 4 blue, search for Grozoth and win. IMO, Mournwelk may just be better than Aethersnipe because it can disrupt your opponent while gaining card advantage. It also creates exactly enough mana to make it all work.

Wallace
11-26-2007, 06:43 PM
This deck seems like it might be viable, like any other combo deck it will be hard to play around counter magic. Mournwhelk should be included and Ingot chewer seems like a house in this deck.

Barook
11-26-2007, 06:58 PM
Very interesting concept, although the list presented above seems horribly slow for a combo deck. I don't know if that a Grozoth "toolbox" is viable. These win conditions looks kinda slow and risky - Akroma-class win conditions (hard to kill) should be worth consideration (Tombstalker would be also interesting because he can be cast even without the combo, depending on the build).

I want to see better tutor cards like Survival or Living Wish to give the deck more consistency and flexibility.

Random side note not really related to the topic: While it doesn't combo with Food Chain, Fecundity is dead-sexy when combined with Evoke.

TeenieBopper
11-26-2007, 07:09 PM
In before Zach Tartell.

Food Chain evoke... Not gonna lie, I'm giggling at the thought. Mox, Tomb, Food Chain, go. Land, evoke mulldrifter, sac into evoked Mournwelk, sac into Akroma. I'm getting all hot and bothered just thinking about it.

The idea for Akroma style win conditions is seconded, in addition to upping the Ancient Tomb count to four.

Barook
11-26-2007, 07:49 PM
Some other creatures to consider:

Mesmeric Fiend: temporary disruption (can turn into permanent discard when played with Food Chain on the table)

Birds of Paradise: additional acceleration which can be fed to your Food Chain after being used

Primoridal Sage: Not exactly the best creature, but it could help you to keep the combo up because you're still playing the creatures.

Mystic Snake/Venser: potential protection - probably just win-more

Edit: On second thought, Living Wish should be pretty awesome here. Not only that it can provide you with all kinds of utility (evoke)/combo creatures from the board, it can also get you back removed creatures just to cast them again. Imagine something like this:
Evoke Mournwelk, Chain it, cast Wish (with non-Chain mana, of course), get Mournwelk, evoke and chain it again.

Brushwagg
11-26-2007, 08:01 PM
Evoke says "You may play this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it comes into play."

So let me get this right, you have a chance to respond to the Evoke sacrifice effect?

Can we get a ruling or something on that?

Barook
11-26-2007, 08:05 PM
Evoke says "You may play this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it comes into play."

So let me get this right, you have a chance to respond to the Evoke sacrifice effect?

This is correct. The Evoke trigger uses the stack (the "when" is essential here), so you have a chance to respond to it.

etrigan
11-26-2007, 08:15 PM
Phage the Untouchable + Inner Flame Acolyte might be your best bet if you want to win without passing the turn.

This is a really innovative idea. It can only get stronger as more Evoke cards are printed next set.

Tacosnape
11-26-2007, 08:25 PM
While I agree this is a neat interaction, one-card combo decks need to have a fallback plan.

So what exactly is this deck going to be doing if Food Chain is Maged/Extirpated/Duressed Away/Countered/You Don't Draw It?

So Annoying My Account Is Banned
11-26-2007, 08:36 PM
While I agree this is a neat interaction, one-card combo decks need to have a fallback plan.

So what exactly is this deck going to be doing if Food Chain is Maged/Extirpated/Duressed Away/Countered/You Don't Draw It?

Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter are pretty decent cards on their own. In fact, most

Happy Gilmore
11-26-2007, 09:36 PM
While I agree this is a neat interaction, one-card combo decks need to have a fallback plan.

So what exactly is this deck going to be doing if Food Chain is Maged/Extirpated/Duressed Away/Countered/You Don't Draw It?

If that happens your best bet is to beat face with Tombstalker Imo. Mournwelk is uncastable but Skriekmaw is a decent clock combined with Tombstalker.

I love Ancient Tomb since the ccs in this deck are 2U, 2G, 3B for the evokers and Food Chain. I also feel that the tutoring leaves a lot to be desired. The concept though is good and I look forward to playing with it.

Here is the version I like on paper:

4 Mournwelk
4 Mulldrifter
4 Skriekmaw
4 Empath
4 Wall of Blossoms

1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Sundering Titan
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

4 Food Chain
4 Drift of Fantasm

3 Thoughtseize
4 Duress


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills

SB:
3 Tombstalker
4 Animate Dead
1 Blazing Archon
4 Yixlid Jailer
3 Reaping the Graves?

Is this deck really better than the other options? I like how each card can be really good on its own.

Maveric78f
11-27-2007, 03:33 AM
Instead of/in addition to drift/wall of blossoms, raven familiar is sexy too.

22 lands is probably too many, and city of traitors should be included too.

Instead of duress/thoughtseize as disruption, what about chalice ? Chalice@1 and Akroma is not killable anymore. Chalice@2 is also very powerful in the metagame and it only cut you from the walls in which I am really not sure. In its place raven is really better. But I'm not convinced in drift of fantasm neither. What to consider then ?
Sawtooth Loon ? No, Court Hussar is probably the best.

2 Mournwelk
4 Mulldrifter
4 Skriekmaw
4 Empath
4 Raven Familiar (flashback is slow evoke)
4 Court Hussar (somehow the first evoke guy)

1 Darksteel Colossus (?)
1 Sundering Titan
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Crater Hellion (or Bogardan Hellkite or Thunder Dragon

4 Food Chain

4 Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void


4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 multicolored lands, probably 4*City of Brass, 4*Gemstone Mine and 2* tropical island

SB:
1 Tornado elemental
1 Petradon
4 Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Random Big Utility Creature

Tacosnape
11-27-2007, 04:53 AM
The problem with that list is that every time you don't draw Food Chain, you're playing a really godawful Chalice Aggro deck. There has to be some way to get Food Chains in hand or be awesome without them.

Maveric78f
11-27-2007, 05:22 AM
Yes but you have a huge digging power (12 creatures are digging at an average of 3 for 3CC). This needs some testing, but I'm not sure it's so long to get food chain in hand. Moreover you have 8 ways to earn yourself some time to find them (4*chalice+4*thorn/trini). I already love the deck on the paper but I need some testing for the consistency.

It looks strange but combo and trinisphere can be friends.

Edit : omg a creature-based green deck without tarmogoyf!

Lego
11-27-2007, 11:08 AM
Does anybody else remember the Elgin-style Food Chain deck back in the day? Every creature was simply designed to find another creature, and you'd net one or two mana with each. Imperial Recruiter, Raven Familiar... I don't actually remember any of the others. It seems the deck thread has fallen to the Wayside (Remember Sideways Stories from Wayside High? Man, so good!) but the purpose of all this rambling is to say that that deck won with Maga. Which was hot.

hi-val
11-27-2007, 11:53 AM
You should probably look at the most badass creatures printed to play with, if mana isn't too bad. My mind immediately comes to the Myojins. Black or Blue Myojin look like a total beating. I'd most likely rather resolve a Myojin of some kind than actually stick an Akroma or Colossus.

GreenOne
11-27-2007, 12:02 PM
Does anybody else remember the Elgin-style Food Chain deck back in the day? Every creature was simply designed to find another creature, and you'd net one or two mana with each. Imperial Recruiter, Raven Familiar... I don't actually remember any of the others. It seems the deck thread has fallen to the Wayside (Remember Sideways Stories from Wayside High? Man, so good!) but the purpose of all this rambling is to say that that deck won with Maga. Which was hot.

That could be a great idea. The deck needs more combo-finish.
Beating with Akroma sucks.
How can we find that deck's list?

Maveric78f
11-27-2007, 12:27 PM
Clearly. The kills are so baaaad. I did some testing and it's awful to struggle to combo and then to finish with a weak body, even protected or untergettable. Plus the deck definitely needs Myojin of seeing winds.

If you want a maga kill though, you need a lot of mana producers and I don't get how you can gather 22 manas consistently.

Pale Moon FTW
11-27-2007, 12:27 PM
Considering the deck's vulnerability to counterspells, there really should be some Xantid Swarms in the SB.

94teen
11-27-2007, 12:36 PM
I've been testing a creature base of:

4 Mulldrifter
3 Shriekmaw
4 Fierce Empath
2 Mournwhelk
1 Aethersnipe
2 Blue Myojin
1 Black Myojin
1 Maga
4 Raven Familiar
2 Court Hussar

and I'm pretty happy with it. Wall of Blossoms might be better than familiars or hussars, but I don't think so. Digging is important when going off, so I like these over just drawing a card, though Wall provides a body against aggro, and can be easily played out before you combo off, providing mana the turn you drop Food Chain.

It's been surprisingly easy to ramp up enough mana to drop myojins, and from there it's no problem at all to drop a huge maga and just win.

I'd like to find space for some kind of tutoring engine other than Drift of Phantasms or (what I'm using now) Sensei's Divining Top.

Maybe something like Merchant Scroll + Intuition or some such. That'd also give you an engine for finding FoW's and such to protect the combo, so might be worth a shot.

rufus
11-27-2007, 12:59 PM
It won't work with evoke, but it's not a big stretch to have a deck run Aluren and Food Chain as alternative engines combined with fetch creatures like Imperial Recruiter and such. Due to casting cost, Alluren isn't all that great with Evoke creatures.

Since the Evoke mechanic is tied to the elemental creature type, Mana Echoes might have potential as an alternative mana production engine, although that adds red, and basically nixes most of the tutors/draw options that were listed.

94teen
11-27-2007, 05:01 PM
A little more goldfishing has shown:

Fierce Empath + expensive singletons is good. Really good. Singleton Aethersnipe is also good, because it's tutorable bounce and mana production due to it's evoke.

Some stuff that can be tutored off of Empath:

Bogardan Hellkite
Draining Whelk
Myojins
Platinum Angel
etc.

I really want to find space for Pact of Negation in this deck, along with more acceleration like Chrome Mox and Elvish Spirit Guide. I'll try to post a list later this week, but I need to do some more work on it first.

Last thought:

Glimpse of Nature? I think it's a little too difficult to make sure you don't deck yourself, and blue myojin has been doing amazing things for me, especially cause you can tutor for it.

Alfred
11-27-2007, 06:25 PM
Red Akroma has to be in this deck. She can't be countered and is immune to swords, which are two of the biggest stumbling blocks that I imagine this deck would have.

Sanguine Voyeur
11-27-2007, 07:01 PM
If you include Fierce Empaths, you can use one Myojin of Cleansing Fire, Night's Reach, and Infinite Rage to clear the board and beat with a 7/4 to win in three turns. The Cleansing Fire may be superfluous against creature light decks as may the Night's Reach altogether.

94teen
11-27-2007, 07:08 PM
Night's Reach is good, but may be superfluous in the face of multiple Mournwhelks. Cleansing Fire and Infinite Rage are definitely superfluous. If you have enough to cast them, you have enough to cast maga and just win.

Sanguine Voyeur
11-27-2007, 07:30 PM
Night's Reach is good, but may be superfluous in the face of multiple Mournwhelks. Cleansing Fire and Infinite Rage are definitely superfluous. If you have enough to cast them, you have enough to cast maga and just win.Night's Reach stops any disruption in their hands, but Mournwelks are more versatile. Cleansing Fire is a stepping stone up to Infinite Rage and it wipes away creatures, clearing the path and stopping them from winning. Infinite Rage stops removal, when combined with Night's Reach [or several Mournwelks], it forces them to topdeck both removal and mana within three turns.

Maga can outright win you the game. If you can't reach up to of twenty three mana, he can be removed [with the diminished hand of your opponent] or blocked and stalled, allowing your opponent the time to win\remove him.

94teen
11-27-2007, 08:38 PM
That's true. Because of that it depends on how much mana this deck can produce. I've typically had no problems reaching that kind of mana, but I haven't played anything with a serious disruption package (nothing more than...say...4 FoW, 4 Stifle). Based on my testing, Maga is superior by a long shot, but it could be easier to do myojins under heavy disruption.

GreenOne
11-28-2007, 03:22 AM
// Lands
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [A] Bayou
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
3 [SC] Fierce Empath
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
4 [DIS] Court Hussar
2 [RAV] Grozoth
1 [CHK] Myojin of Life's Web
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
1 [LRW] AEthersnipe

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
2 [MR] Chrome Mox


Once you get a food chain and start doing your thing you just need 2 imperial recruiter or 1 recruiter + fierce empath/grozoth to win and you have plenty of critters to do this. The real problem with this version is that there's no Food Chain tutor, just slow draw-critters. There's little protection too, but the combo rarely fizzles.

Maveric78f
11-28-2007, 07:31 AM
Draw/Tutor Creatures : 20
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Mulldrifter
4 Empath
4 Raven Familiar (flashback is slow evoke)
4 Court Hussar (somehow the first evoke guy)

Utility creatures : 4
1 White Myojin (wrath)
1 Red Myojin (armag+kill)
1 Blue Myojin (intensive draw)
1 Mournwhelk (mana producing + discard)

Food + Dirupt : 12
4 Food Chain
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

Mana 24 :
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

SB:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid is almost unwinnable without it)
4 Indrik Stomphowler
3 Krosan Grip

One should notice that with food chain in play :
- 3 manas + recruiter in hand = wrath possible (recruiter for recruiter for recruiter for recruiter for fierce empath for white myojin : 3-3+4-3+4-3+4-3+4-3+4=8)
- 3 manas + recruiter in hand + fierce empath = discard 2 + any big creature possibly played. (recruiter for fierce empath for mournwhelk + fierce empath for 10CC myojin : 3-3+4-3+4-4+8-3+4=10)
- usually 2 3CC drawers = gg too (I mean by gg wrath + armag played with at least a 4/6 and a 7/4 in play).

Well the problem is really to find and to play food chain.

bruno_tiete
11-28-2007, 07:41 AM
That's a sweet concept, but it brings all associated problems of strategies depending on a single card to work.

Enlightned Tutor is legal in Legacy. Is there a chance to play a 5c manabase to fetch it turn 1 and then play it on turn 2 with tombs?

Other thing that just occured me is that Priest of Gix has been "fixed" back.
It adds 6 for 3. Not a great deal compared with Evoke guys, but still an option.

Elfrago
11-28-2007, 08:04 AM
Why did you cut Drift of Phantasms? It looks like the best tutor for Food Chain. And when you have one you can cast it to get some extra mana.

Maveric78f
11-28-2007, 08:12 AM
Why did you cut Drift of Phantasms? It looks like the best tutor for Food Chain. And when you have one you can cast it to get some extra mana.

The problem is that it's 1UU (not tomb/traitors compliant) and that it cannot use the food chain mana to tutor.

About enlightened tutor, I prefer to stall my opponent with chalice and trinisphere and wasteland and dig my deck with my combo creatures.

Moczoc
11-28-2007, 11:27 AM
some interesting things I gathered while toying around with Food Chain:



- Skyshroud Cutter gives 5 mana while costing 0 mana (you just need a forest in play)

- The Bringers give 10 mana while costing 5

- Panglacial Wurm can be played and sacced to up the mana count while using a Recruiter or Empath

- Yuo can create a chain of: 4 Imperial Recuiter then 4 Goblin Matron and 4 Panglacial Wurm then 4 Goblin Embermage. It's just a stupid trick to get loads of mana. When you have a Cutter in play and play Food Chain you end up with 21 mana (on turn 2). I don't think the idea has any relevance ;)

- Summoner's Pact is a nice tutor for Empath

- Iname as One is a nice tutor for the Myojin's

- I think the base of a Food Chain Deck should be:

20 - 24 lands (incl. City, Tomb)
4 Pact of Negation
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Food Chain

now the rest has to be the most efficient creaturebase
The turn to go off should be mostly turn 2

bruno_tiete
11-28-2007, 12:26 PM
Also adding to Moczoc, Peregrine Drake can be fetched off of Recruiter and gives you both chain and regular mana.

Isnt duress/ thoughtseize better than pact as proactive defense?

GiantGrowth
11-28-2007, 12:42 PM
With all this playing creatures and mana production, what is stopping the deck from running a non-creature based win? Mabey some kind of storm combo? Just something to think about.

Cavius The Great
11-28-2007, 12:44 PM
With all this playing creatures and mana production, what is stopping the deck from running a non-creature based win? Mabey some kind of storm combo? Just something to think about.

Becuase you can only cast creatures off of Food Chain mana.

Willoe
11-28-2007, 02:03 PM
a singleton composite golem would give -mana advantage if you sac it and +1 mana advantage if food chain eats it. If you sac it to get WUBRG, you can use the RG to play quirion sentinel to get WUBB, which is enough for a tendrils. However, finding two cards where only one of them are fetchable with imperial recruiter while the other one is only fetchable with fierce empath. That gives some trouble. Of course, you can just play coal stoker and kill with a grapeshot. But that requires twenty spells played to kill, AND the coal stoker. Cloud of Faeries can also be used. There is just so many possibilities. The four (which I can thing about so far) problems/questions are:
1. the most important: how do we tutor up the food chain?
2. how do we protect the combo consistently?
3. which kill is the most consistent?
4. should the deck have some aggro backup like cephalid breakfast? If just goyf was synergestic with the rest of the deck...
5. how do we get a fast and consistent clock? The ancient tomb as well as chrome mox accel may be a good idea.

Oros, the Avenger
11-28-2007, 02:14 PM
Tendrils would be a nice addition, even if the deck don't manage to get the storm count of 10, it can at least get the red myojin and tendrils to get a faster clock and protect itself against stormcombo and aggro.

Maveric78f
11-28-2007, 02:16 PM
I would rather play Cloud of Faeries because it cycles.

94teen
11-28-2007, 02:24 PM
Composite Golem (if you choose to play it) can be tutored for by Fierce Empath though, so it gives you a way to consistently generate mana you can spend on non-creature spells.

I think that creature based win is still superior because it takes up minimal slots in the deck, while still allowing you to tutor your pieces. It makes the deck a little more consistent.

GreenOne
11-28-2007, 02:26 PM
Once you play a grozoth (fetch grozoth#2 and Myojin of Life's Web) sac grozoth to play myojinr emove the counter and play everything in your hand it's 21 mana just from the 2 grozoth and the Myojin. This is probably the simplest way to gain enough mana for maga, and it's tutorable with empath.

Oros, the Avenger
11-28-2007, 02:49 PM
you dont even need maga. With at least red Myojin its a nice clock. If there is Maga, nice.

raharu
11-28-2007, 03:05 PM
Storm Combo... Not the answer. It just doesn't have synergy with Food Chain and is clunky, clashing with the interaction with the rest of the deck.

Willoe
11-28-2007, 03:29 PM
hmm... will it be possible to play nineteen spells in one turn and then kill with storm entity as a backup to maga? Grozoth and Myojin of Life's Web makes a hell lot of good nine drops, unfortunately, the spirit of the night are legendary, so they will just be killed. When a deck like this got so much tutors, business spells and ways to generate mana (once food chain is out) we do need a good hard-to-disrupt kill. Tendrils is nice, but as you say, it doesn't have any synergy with the rest of the deck. if doubling cube could be played with composite golem (that's 2 for the cube, 3 for activation), you could have a doubled mana pool for any use. I know it's pretty hard to do, as Doubling Cube can't be tutored. Am I missing something?

Sanguine Voyeur
11-28-2007, 03:47 PM
You could play nineteen spells in one turn for a 20/20 haste. It should be noted that nineteen spells is a lot, it would be easier to just use the Myojin or Maga for twenty. The easiest way to get a storm of twenty that I can see, is to chain into a Myojin of Seeing Winds, activating it, and using the drawn cards to feed to each other into Storm Entity.

rufus
11-28-2007, 04:19 PM
It seems like Momir Vig, Simic Visionary could have a place in a deck like this since he's not bad on his own, and absurd in the presence of Root Maze. Of course, he does want to be played with Coiling Oracle.

Drift of Phantasms could work as a tutor, but it's slow.

94teen
11-28-2007, 05:09 PM
Some ideas. I've had a little bit of trouble with drawing into nothing even after I've started going off, and so I think a singleton that helps ensure a more reliable combo would be helpful. Enter Primordial Sage. Tutorable off of Fierce Empath, draws a ton more cards, and is just generally a pain for your opponent.

SEcondly, I've had problems with not drawing into Food Chain or tutors not being fast enough. Ashnod's Altar, while not as good, does give you some kind of engine to cyle through creatures, especially if you add Cloud of Faeries to get colored mana.

I think some mechanism of tutoring for Food Chain is optimal, but there isn't much of one available that's not really slow. Unless you try something like Intuition.

ImaBorgerman
11-28-2007, 09:59 PM
Food for thoughts, will Sneak Attack fit into this deck? In my opinion a R/G hybrid would be extremely powerful...

It will solve the problem of not drawing or having Food Chain in your opening hand. You could use Sneak Attack to to sneak out ALL the uncastable creatures on your hand. Perhaps an alternative win condition.

Hoped that helps :)

rufus
11-29-2007, 02:03 AM
Food for thoughts, will Sneak Attack fit into this deck? In my opinion a R/G hybrid would be extremely powerful...

The mana base isn't really set up for it, although Sneak Attack/Grozoth/Zodiac Dragon is spiffy.

Oros, the Avenger
11-29-2007, 08:08 AM
You dont play rites, like Seething Song or something like that. So i dont think that Sneak Attack ist fast enough.
What about a back up plan? Something you can simply throw out, even if the combo doesnt start cuz of a countered food chain or something like that.

largebrandon
11-29-2007, 09:49 AM
What about Mogg War Marshall? With Food Chain, it becomes a better seething song (costing 1R, instead of 2R).

Also, I like the idea of Zodiac Dragon. . but does anyone even have one?!

Maveric78f
11-29-2007, 09:55 AM
What you porpose does not work, Food Chain's cost is to remove the creature, it never hits the graveyard. Zodiac Dragon's or Mogg War Marshal's effects will never trigger.

RoddyVR
11-29-2007, 10:32 AM
marshall isnt as amazing as it could have been, but its still pay 1R to cast a creature, and get 3 of one color (for marshall) and 1 of another color (for the cip token) for it.

the idea of foodchaining tokens for 1 mana though led me to:
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
4B
2/2 legendary human wizard
Whenever you play a creature spell, put X 1/1 black Thrull creature tokens into play, where X is that spell's converted mana cost.
When you control seven or more Thrulls, sacrifice Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder

so for each creature you'd play with food chaing you'lld get double the mana by sacing all those tokens for 1 mana each.

rufus
11-29-2007, 10:53 AM
You could play nineteen spells in one turn for a 20/20 haste. It should be noted that nineteen spells is a lot, it would be easier to just use the Myojin or Maga for twenty. The easiest way to get a storm of twenty that I can see, is to chain into a Myojin of Seeing Winds, activating it, and using the drawn cards to feed to each other into Storm Entity.

I'd think Shrieking Drake, Grinning Ignus or Sawtooth Loon might be better fits for the deck. Of course, Maga is still a better victory condition.

Maveric78f
11-29-2007, 10:59 AM
The thing is that the problem is not mana but draw ! But it's clearly one of the most mana generative card. I'm sorry to say that it's useless.

After a bit of testing yesterday, I came to the conclusion that it was highly inconsistent (you can combo turn 2 or turn 10) but also highly counterspell resistent (trinisphere and chalice help a lot). I played against a bad big blue player and his counterspells (FoW+counterspell+mana leak+stifle) did not make it.

The list I'm on right now :

// Lands // 22
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [5E] City of Brass
3 [WL] Gemstone Mine
3 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge

// Creatures // 22
1 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
4 [DIS] Court Hussar
1 [SC] Fierce Empath
3 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals // kill

// Spells // 16
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard #1
SB: 3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [DIS] Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [MR] Duplicant
SB: 1 [CHK] Dosan the Falling Leaf
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver

// Sideboard #2 (stompy transformationnal)
4 SoFI
4 Jitte
3 SoLS
4 Shriekmaw

94teen
11-29-2007, 11:23 AM
How much trouble have you had hitting enough mana for maga? The lack of evokers seems like it'd be hard to hit enough mana for Myojin or Maga, and it doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to fizzle with this. I guess Cloud of Faeries does the same job, but it just doesn't seem as effective because that's all it does. For the same cost, shriekmaw nets you one more mana, 1 for 1's your opponent, and saves sb space.

How's 4 Imperial Recruiter/1 Fierce Empath? I've been liking empath a lot, so I'm a little concerned that you only have one.

Willoe
11-29-2007, 11:32 AM
sweet decklist :) i like the idea of transformational SB, so this deck can at least defend itself with some swords. Undercosted beaters like Negator and Avatar of discord could also do.

94teen@: the idea with 4 imperial recruiter and 1 empath is to get a chain of spells. Rec for rec for rec for rec for empath= fetch a creature with 8cc and play it. The list I'm testing does always win the game on turn 4. That's too slow, but it's pretty consistent. That's because I run the grozoth toolbox instead. That may be a turn slower, but that's way more consistent. Also, if it was possible to play both toolbox and maga, then you got yourself a grozoth eaten to myojin, remove counter, get two 9cc into play, eat all creatures and kill with maga for 27 damage. It's just the problem with Maga, you don't always have him in hand, and the recruiter chain ends up only giving seven mana (fierce empath is not included in the chain this time) and sixteen more mana is needed.

Maveric78f
11-29-2007, 12:57 PM
How much trouble have you had hitting enough mana for maga? The lack of evokers seems like it'd be hard to hit enough mana for Myojin or Maga, and it doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to fizzle with this. I guess Cloud of Faeries does the same job, but it just doesn't seem as effective because that's all it does. For the same cost, shriekmaw nets you one more mana, 1 for 1's your opponent, and saves sb space.

How's 4 Imperial Recruiter/1 Fierce Empath? I've been liking empath a lot, so I'm a little concerned that you only have one.

My testing has not been intensive yet, but I noticed several things :
- empath fetches only 1 creature : blue myojin, I don't need to play several.
- as long as you draw creatures, you generate mana. You don't need that a creature provides +3 or +4 mana, you just need it to be a creature. Cloud is a bit the exception because it cycles when you're digging for your food chain, because it provides +5 manas (untapping 2 2CC lands), because it can be played and then you play food chain and then you start comboing and because it's the best creature after side-transformation
- Imperial Recruiter is a bit everything at the same time : universal creature fetch and also a mana provider when you make the chain recruiter for recruiter, ...
- after drawing a lot you have a hand full of lands and artifacts, that's an additionnal reason why mox diamond is so much better than chrome mox. Then the moxen provide coloured mana.
- dig the more you can on creatures and only after fetch for the creatures with recruiter. If you start fetching for the creature, then you remove creatures from your deck.
- chalices are good for playing cheap permanents before cracking the myojin's counter.
- finally sometimes, I was short on maga's mana, but I more felt that I was short on draw (or bad draw) than short on mana.


sweet decklist :) i like the idea of transformational SB, so this deck can at least defend itself with some swords. Undercosted beaters like Negator and Avatar of discord could also do.

The idea of playing 11 equipments is that my beaters are too weak to make the game and that I need 1 equipement into play if I want to win. Adding beaters is probably not the way to go because they would be too lonely.

Willoe
11-29-2007, 01:07 PM
I got some thoughts about your decklist. It's pretty good, and I completely forgot about Raven Familiar and Court Hussar as creatures xD But, are you sure it is a good idea not to play enlightened tutor? I mean, if Food Chain is not in the hand, then you're screwed :S Can Verdeloth the Ancient be used as a singleton (fetchable with Fierce Empath) since it serves two purposes: (and yes, kickers can be paid with food chain manaa :P) an alternate win condition when you don't have mana enough for a lethal maga. I think that say 8 1/1's are better than one 8/8. But even better, you can use the saprolings as fodder for myojin and for more permanents that myojin draws cards from. The treeman also stops mana flood and can then theoretically upwell the mana to use in next turn. How does that sound?

rufus
11-29-2007, 01:56 PM
My testing has not been intensive yet, but I noticed several things :
- empath fetches only 1 creature : blue myojin, I don't need to play several.
- as long as you draw creatures, you generate mana. You don't need that a creature provides +3 or +4 mana, you just need it to be a creature. Cloud is a bit the exception because it cycles when you're digging for your food chain, because it provides +5 manas (untapping 2 2CC lands), because it can be played and then you play food chain and then you start comboing and because it's the best creature after side-transformation
- Imperial Recruiter is a bit everything at the same time : universal creature fetch and also a mana provider when you make the chain recruiter for recruiter, ...
- after drawing a lot you have a hand full of lands and artifacts, that's an additionnal reason why mox diamond is so much better than chrome mox. Then the moxen provide coloured mana.
- dig the more you can on creatures and only after fetch for the creatures with recruiter. If you start fetching for the creature, then you remove creatures from your deck.
- finally sometimes, I was short on maga's mana, but I more felt that I was short on draw (or bad draw) than short on mana.

Depending on how your mana production and draws work out, Nantuko Cultivator, or, Sawtooth Loon could allow you to cycle dead cards out and improve your drawing characteristics.

With your list, as it stands, Maga, Myogin, and the Mulldrifter are the only cards that have CC > 3, so -4 trinisphere, +2 Aluren, +2 Cavern Harpy might be a slick sideboard option.

Zork
11-29-2007, 03:08 PM
If you want another tutor target for Empath, Zodiac Dragon would provide infinite mana, no?

Jade
11-29-2007, 03:11 PM
If you want another tutor target for Empath, Zodiac Dragon would provide infinite mana, no?

no...

I wanted to add karmic guide when I noticed it... RTFC, you have to remove the creature =/

Finn
11-29-2007, 03:20 PM
Cool interaction.

So is this the use for Evoke we were saying would happen iff Wizards made it a trigger? Is there something better?

Moczoc
11-29-2007, 03:22 PM
My current list looks quite different, but has proven itself in goldfishing

Wins on turn:

3/3/mullig. to 0/2/2/10/3/3/2/3/3 (21|21 Maga on turn 2 while opp at 4 life ;) /3 ... to be continued


Creatures
1 Iname as One
1 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Mulldrifter
4 Fierce Empath
3 Myojin of Seeing Winds
4 Court Hussar
1 Raven Familiar
1 Phyrexian Gargantua

Spells
4 Food Chain
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact

Lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Crystal Vein


Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pact of Negation


Choices:

Iname as One - The mana machine. This strange looking sausage can be fetched with Pact or Empath, played for 12 and ends as 24 mana because he brings his friend, a counterless Myojin.

Skyshroud Cutter - the green Ritual. Let's you go off turn 2 (where you most times cast FC)

Phyrexian Gargantua - Draw 2 with Empath

Enlightened Tutor - Consistance. Gets Food Chain.

Summoner's Pact - Gets what you need



.. I like the idea of Nantuko Cultivator very much .. i'll test it!

Nihil Credo
11-29-2007, 03:56 PM
1 Phyrexian Gargantua
Citanul Woodreaders or Sunscape Battlemage would work better as extra card draw.

Great list, it's awesome that it can be so fast. Too bad it still loses to a counterspell in game 1. I've thought about how to fix that, but Boseiju (to Living Wish for) only protects instants and sorceries...

Elfrago
11-29-2007, 04:14 PM
Just a random idea:

A single tutorable Primordial Sage?

Moczoc
11-29-2007, 04:16 PM
Citanul Woodreaders or Sunscape Battlemage would work better as extra card draw.


better? they are not tutorable with Empath and make -2 mana under FC!



Great list, it's awesome that it can be so fast. Too bad it still loses to a counterspell in game 1. I've thought about how to fix that, but Boseiju (to Living Wish for) only protects instants and sorceries...

Damn, I should have read it again. Its gonna be replaced with Xantid Swarm.



Just a random idea:

A single tutorable Primordial Sage?

I think most times I would play it, I would have to sac it to play the next creature. But it's worth a test.

Willoe
11-29-2007, 05:10 PM
I think we are all fairly agreed with the following deck skeleton:

4 Imperial Recruiter
X Fierce Empath (1 or 4)
4 Mulldrifter
4 Court Hussar
X Raven Familiar

4 Food Chain
X Enlightened Tutor (0 or 4)

am I right? The nantuko cultivator needs to be included as it can deliver some nasty beats as well as drawing a tons of cards when you got the draw going. Mulldrifter, Court Hussar (that digs into more mulldrifters) as well as Raven Familiar may be the "real" draw engine, when Fierce Empath tutors for more beefs and Imperial Recruiter either chains or searches for mulldrifters, hussars and ravens. I think the imperial recruiter keeps the wheel turning while finding mana, and Fierce Empath tutors up the kill, whatever it might be.

Jade
11-29-2007, 05:30 PM
The nantuko cultivator needs to be included as it can deliver some nasty beats as well as drawing a tons of cards when you got the draw going.

Did you already test it?
I normally do not get that many lands in hand, as the engine is aiming more for card quality than quantity - at least till myojin hits play, but at that point you've probably won anyway.

Still, it can't be wrong to run 1-2 copies. I really want more card advantage in this deck.

APriestOfGix
11-29-2007, 05:44 PM
My current list looks quite different, but has proven itself in goldfishing

Wins on turn:

3/3/mullig. to 0/2/2/10/3/3/2/3/3 (21|21 Maga on turn 2 while opp at 4 life ;) /3 ... to be continued


Creatures
1 Iname as One
1 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Mulldrifter
4 Fierce Empath
3 Myojin of Seeing Winds
4 Court Hussar
1 Raven Familiar
1 Phyrexian Gargantua

Spells
4 Food Chain
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact

Lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Crystal Vein


Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pact of Negation


Choices:

Iname as One - The mana machine. This strange looking sausage can be fetched with Pact or Empath, played for 12 and ends as 24 mana because he brings his friend, a counterless Myojin.

Skyshroud Cutter - the green Ritual. Let's you go off turn 2 (where you most times cast FC)

Phyrexian Gargantua - Draw 2 with Empath

Enlightened Tutor - Consistance. Gets Food Chain.

Summoner's Pact - Gets what you need



.. I like the idea of Nantuko Cultivator very much .. i'll test it!

this list is VERY good...

Edit: i pulled the Garg for the cultivator...

94teen
11-29-2007, 06:23 PM
Are there any other options other than Imperial Recruiter? He's great in the deck, and I'd love to be able to play him. The price is a little out of reach right now. Any suggestions?

Maveric78f
11-29-2007, 07:51 PM
The deck is already average with Imperial Recruiter. Without it, it's absolutely impossible.

The turn 3 win for a full combo deck with no disruption is very bad. That's why it must not be a full combo deck and I recommend to use a chalice/trinisphere shell.

I like the idea of playing aluren in addition to food chain is interesting. I'll try a version.

So Annoying My Account Is Banned
11-29-2007, 08:02 PM
Would Leyline of Lifeforce help counter situation?

APriestOfGix
11-29-2007, 08:18 PM
Would Leyline of Lifeforce help counter situation?

it would, the main problem isn't resolving critters though, it's the food chain...

rufus
11-29-2007, 11:00 PM
More combo, alas, less evoke. Still probably marginal....

Engine Critters:
4 Sky Hussar
4 Raven Familiar
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Man-'o-War
4 Cavern Harpy

Broken Cards:
4 Aluren
4 Root Maze

Secondary Victory Condition:
2 Brainstorm

Brakes:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Gaddock Teeg

Mana Production:
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Happy Gilmore
11-29-2007, 11:08 PM
More combo, alas, less evoke. Still probably marginal....

Engine Critters:
4 Sky Hussar
4 Raven Familiar
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Man-'o-War
4 Cavern Harpy

Broken Cards:
4 Aluren
4 Root Maze

Secondary Victory Condition:
2 Brainstorm

Brakes:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Gaddock Teeg

Mana Production:
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

?? your in the wrong thread bud. This deck list has nothing to do with the topic.

Lemuria
11-30-2007, 05:29 AM
Secondary Victory Condition:
2 Brainstorm





I just don't get it.......:confused:

GreenOne
11-30-2007, 05:42 AM
I just don't get it.......:confused:

Are you kidding??
Brainstorm is baroooken in this deck: it combos with Thorn of amethist and Chalice@1, and finds your win conditions!!! It also can put on top the chaff, beaing even more broken than ancestral! Too bad it's restricted to 2 copies in this format...

Syco_Tr0pic
11-30-2007, 06:33 AM
He probably meant Brainfreeze. You guys are too fast at flaming, I think.

GreenOne
11-30-2007, 06:48 AM
He probably meant Brainfreeze. You guys are too fast at flaming, I think.
Not flaming, it was just funny.. :smile:

Willoe
11-30-2007, 07:56 AM
...

Anyway, anybody thought about a phage/inner-flame acolyte as a kill condition? Phage is tutorable with Fierce Empath, and Inner-flame acolyte is tutorable with imperial recruiter! If you got a recruiter in hand and a fierce empath, you simple chain the recruiters and at the end of the chain, tutor for acolyte. Empath tutors for phage, eight mana is saved up, play and kill with phage. Is it consistent enough as a another win condition?

Elfrago
11-30-2007, 09:55 AM
...

Anyway, anybody thought about a phage/inner-flame acolyte as a kill condition? Phage is tutorable with Fierce Empath, and Inner-flame acolyte is tutorable with imperial recruiter! If you got a recruiter in hand and a fierce empath, you simple chain the recruiters and at the end of the chain, tutor for acolyte. Empath tutors for phage, eight mana is saved up, play and kill with phage. Is it consistent enough as a another win condition?

And then get Phage eated by a goyf...

Or chump-blocked by a 1/1 dude...

rufus
11-30-2007, 10:15 AM
He probably meant Brainfreeze. You guys are too fast at flaming, I think.

Actually, I meant Brainfart, but that's still in R&D - you guys aren't supposed to know about it.
I also had root maze instead of food chain. :<

After Happy Gilmore's post I figured I had digressed too far anyway.

Oros, the Avenger
11-30-2007, 11:23 AM
I test this list right know (and i know it isn't perfect ;) )

Lands // 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Tendo Ice Bridge

Creatures // 22
1 Myojin of Seeing Winds
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Mulldrifter
4 Raven Familiar
3 Court Hussar
1 Fierce Empath
4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
1 Cloudthresher

Spells // 16
4 Food Chain
4 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

Sideboard
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Shriekmaw

The Cloudthresher is tutorable if i need to, gives +3 mana and we need 2 less mana for the Maga kill.

Happy Gilmore
11-30-2007, 01:35 PM
Imperial Recruiter may be very good but I couldn't advocate any deck that runs a $75 uncommon. Only a hand full of player have them or have the assets to get them. Designing the deck so its playable is important not simply to create the most powerful deck possible.

rufus
11-30-2007, 02:58 PM
Imperial Recruiter may be very good but I couldn't advocate any deck that runs a $75 uncommon. Only a hand full of player have them or have the assets to get them. Designing the deck so its playable is important not simply to create the most powerful deck possible.

Well, there's the goblin option...

Goblin Matron
Goblin Ringleader
Changeling Berserker
Boggart Mob

Along with some of the usual suspects might work out well.

Oros, the Avenger
11-30-2007, 02:59 PM
How would the "Goblin Option" look like?

TeenieBopper
11-30-2007, 03:18 PM
How would the "Goblin Option" look like?

4 Wasteland
2 Ancient tomb
6 fetch
8 mountain
4 ESG

4 Food Chain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Recrui... oh wai....

Bovinious
11-30-2007, 03:22 PM
4 Wasteland
2 Ancient tomb
6 fetch
8 mountain
4 ESG

4 Food Chain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Recrui... oh wai....

I LOL'D, then sighed, I miss that deck...

And also I think SSG would be a good inclusion as well :)

rufus
11-30-2007, 03:39 PM
How would the "Goblin Option" look like?

Ideally, it would be 'champion the tutor' - the Ringleader and Matron's abilities are 'comes into play' triggers so they interact well with Champion.

Goblin Matron
Goblin Ringleader
Changeling Berserker
Changeling Titan
Goblin Warchief
Goblin Lackey

Food Chain
Thorn of Amethyst
Trinisphere
Chalice of the Void

Wooded Foothills
Taiga
Chrome Mox
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors

Wallace
11-30-2007, 04:01 PM
Whats this decks plan if you can't resolve a Food Chain?

raharu
11-30-2007, 04:11 PM
Cry in the corner or start the prayer to tutor up another one

94teen
11-30-2007, 04:12 PM
Well, the goblin option goes beatdown. The other ones...try to draw another Food Chain.

I like the goblin option, and I think I'm going to start building that. Looks like a blast to play.

Di
12-01-2007, 01:13 AM
Imperial Recruiter may be very good but I couldn't advocate any deck that runs a $75 uncommon. Only a hand full of player have them or have the assets to get them. Designing the deck so its playable is important not simply to create the most powerful deck possible.

That is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that you purposely intend to play a build of a deck that is strictly inferior is absolutely absurd simply due to the price. If you can't build an optimal version of a deck, then pick a different deck. Would you not run Tarmogoyf if it was a $100 card? And replace it with Werebear in every single deck it is in? No. Because you would get crushed. Think of the Threshold mirror, exact copies, except one person uses Werebear over Tarmogoyf. Do you believe that person has a good chance of winning?

However, there were some (supposed) exceptions a while back. In 1.5, it was possible to replace Mana Drain with Counterspell in Landstill and find some replacement such as Buried Alive for Bazaar in Dragon. However, hardly anyone ran those builds and if they did you would never see them in a top8 because they were strictly inferior and thus couldn't compete. If you want a combo deck to compete, especially a deck like this, you need to have the absolute optimal build. Otherwise you'll get blown away, unless there somehow happens to be a miracle card that functions better than Imperial Recruiter. If there is, then by all means spread the word, because otherwise I don't think it's worth the putting the effort in because although I feel the deck has potential, Imperial Recruiter is what makes it work.

greenmage
12-01-2007, 05:55 AM
That is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that you purposely intend to play a build of a deck that is strictly inferior is absolutely absurd simply due to the price. If you can't build an optimal version of a deck, then pick a different deck. Would you not run Tarmogoyf if it was a $100 card? And replace it with Werebear in every single deck it is in? No. Because you would get crushed. Think of the Threshold mirror, exact copies, except one person uses Werebear over Tarmogoyf. Do you believe that person has a good chance of winning?

However, there were some (supposed) exceptions a while back. In 1.5, it was possible to replace Mana Drain with Counterspell in Landstill and find some replacement such as Buried Alive for Bazaar in Dragon. However, hardly anyone ran those builds and if they did you would never see them in a top8 because they were strictly inferior and thus couldn't compete. If you want a combo deck to compete, especially a deck like this, you need to have the absolute optimal build. Otherwise you'll get blown away, unless there somehow happens to be a miracle card that functions better than Imperial Recruiter. If there is, then by all means spread the word, because otherwise I don't think it's worth the putting the effort in because although I feel the deck has potential, Imperial Recruiter is what makes it work.
I'd say it depends on what you seek.
If you seek winning as often as possible you are correct.
If you rather play for the fun factor and only need a decent deck for your meta there's nothing wrong with replacements.

Oros, the Avenger
12-01-2007, 06:05 AM
I think the problem of the Deck is that even with the Recruter, you have problems reaching the 23 mana(sometimes less) mana for the kill. I tried out the Golem-Tendrils kill, but you need 2 Golems if you dont play with Doubling Cube, thats quite too much. Then, maybe you should run Enlightened Tutor, so you got a first turn Tutor for Food Chain. I think i try a list with Cube-Golem-Tendrils kill, but there you also need 10 spells, thats quiet a lot.

Willoe
12-01-2007, 06:38 AM
the problem is, we got to wait until morningtide to see if it gets any win-now creature or more evokers with good abilities. An example could be of a card that was an autoinclude in the deck:

7BB (a high cmc)
6/6
creature - elemental
when CARDNAME comes into play, you may search your library for a card and put it in your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Evoke 2BB (or 3BB, this doesn't matter)

that would be very good for the deck. The problem is, that evoke is such a new mechanic and in legacy, a max of two of them are playable. Mulldrifter and Shriekmaw.

I know this isn't a fictional card thread, but I think morningtide will bring us what's needed for the deck. If an evokeable version of imperial recruiter becomes printed, I'm a happy man! :) Until then, we can rely on at least two inconsistent kills:
maga (requires around 20 mana, depends on whether the opponent has lost life due to fetches, tombs, thoughtseizes or something)

the grozoth toolbox: fetches a hell lot of cards, but none of the cards have haste except for spirit of the night. You got to wait another turn, and that gives the opponent a turn for finding that Damnation. Although the bringers can give a nice mana boost (+5 mana advantage) or provide as a nice clock with a good ability.

other wierd kills: golem tendrils or coal stoker grapeshot are possible, but since grapeshot isn't a creature, it's hard to play and tutor for. The same is true for tendrils kill.

So what I'm saying is: we got to wait for morningtide to see what it delivers. Efficent creature tutors is what the deck needs! Until then, keep on the development!

Oros, the Avenger
12-01-2007, 07:40 AM
I tested the Golem-Cube-Tendrils option and i think its a little more consinstent. I dont run 3spheres or Chalice, so i have enough slots to run Enlightened Tutor. Tendrils can easily picked up during combo.The cube is quiet easy to cast, but may slow the combo down a turn. But you dont need the cube to kill, i run 3 Golems, so i can also easily play 2 of them for Tendrils. Its quiet hard to reach lethal storm, because sometimes you have all pieces for the kill AND enough mana, but only a storm counter of 6 or 7. Also, i dont run Recruters in my list, because i needed the slots for other things. I will test a little more and then post my list.

Moczoc
12-01-2007, 08:19 AM
I think the problem of the Deck is that even with the Recruter, you have problems reaching the 23 mana(sometimes less) mana for the kill.

?! It's not a problem at all. My list often has to reach 28 mana and it's not really difficult. The fastest way is Iname as One, but sometimes I have to take the longer way and play out every creature.
The main draw engine should stay Myojin of Seeing Winds, even if he often only draws 4 cards it's enough to chain into another one. Thats a reason why I play 4 Empath.

Oros, the Avenger
12-01-2007, 08:47 AM
Sorry, i didnt test your list, only 2 others posted here, and then i build my own. What can i play in your list for the Recruiters? Something that doesnt cost $75

Oros, the Avenger
12-02-2007, 06:51 AM
Sorry for double posting, but i got a card that can create a chain like the Recruiter, except it cant tutor Maga at the end, but it doesnt cost $75 each. I talk about Embermage Goblin, you play it for 4, tutor another one, and always do the same like with the Recruiter. In the list of Moczoc, you get such a draw that finding Maga shouldnt be a problem.

Willoe
12-02-2007, 08:58 AM
sure dude, that's pretty good, but the pros with imperial recruiter is: can fetch almost any crature in the deck and it costs 1 less. The difference in cmc is enormous, since you can be that unlucky to play a food chain with say chrome mox and ancient tomb and then you got no other mana sources, and embermage goblin is the only creature in your hand. If you delay yourself a turn, you give the opponent a time walk and that gives them one more turn to find answers. For creature fetching, I would rather use Skyshroud Sentinel. Let's face it, nothing can beat that recruiter!

Oros, the Avenger
12-02-2007, 09:17 AM
Skyshroud Sentinel is MUCH better than the Goblin, because it is green, which helps you going off. Of course nothing can beat the Recruiter in such a deck, but its a fact that it cost ca. $75, 4 of them cost more than the complete rest of the deck. I test the Sentinel. My list look like this now:
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [A] Savannah
4 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [6E] Crystal Vein

// Creatures
1 [DIS] Court Hussar
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
4 [SC] Fierce Empath
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
1 [SOK] Iname as One
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
3 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds
1 [AP] Phyrexian Gargantua
4 [NE] Skyshroud Sentinel

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere

The Raven Familiar is better than the Hussar, because you can leave it in play if you have enough mana so you can draw an extra card with the myojin.

matelml
12-02-2007, 10:50 AM
Where are the Eternal Witnesses?

Oros, the Avenger
12-02-2007, 10:51 AM
For what you need Witnesses. The cards are removed from game due to Food Chain.

matelml
12-02-2007, 10:59 AM
My bad, I should have realized.

Willoe
12-02-2007, 12:27 PM
Oros, if you want to do some playtesting in te next couple of days I would be happy, I don't have any time for it, sorry :/ The inclusion of Skyshroud Sentinel or some other "fetch 3 creatures with the name name" creatures seems very interesting to me.

Oros, the Avenger
12-02-2007, 01:09 PM
I did tons of testings, and i have to say it like this:
Sometimes, you mull yourself to oblivion. But most, you have to take a mull or two, then be happy, and go off on turn 2 or 3. The biggest problem of the combo is right at the beginning. Thats where you fizzle if you got really bad luck. It happens to me 2 or three times. Later on, you have so much mana, that even if you draw a couple of lands in a row, you can keep the combo up. I will test the Phage-Acolyte kill in addition to the Maga kill, because Phage is tutorable and the Acolyte can be picked up during combo(or for the players playing the Recruiter, they can tutor it too). I will think about how to use both kills in one Decklist, so even if Maga gets countered, you can simply go on, killing with Phage or the other way around. I dont know what to cut, i think until tomorrow(i live in Germany), i made up a new list.

rufus
12-03-2007, 10:48 AM
Sorry for double posting, but i got a card that can create a chain like the Recruiter, except it cant tutor Maga at the end, but it doesnt cost $75 each. I talk about Embermage Goblin, you play it for 4, tutor another one, and always do the same like with the Recruiter. In the list of Moczoc, you get such a draw that finding Maga shouldnt be a problem.

Goblin Matron is superior to Embermage Goblin for this in every way that I can think of. Regardless Imperial Recruiter is still a much more potent card.

I was musing on the potential for Kiki-Jiki to produce a combo finish, but there doesn't seem to be anything.

Oros, the Avenger
12-03-2007, 11:19 AM
I think I'm going to kick these "chain creatures", meaning the Sentinel, completely off, because except the Recruiter, the only thing they get me is mana or permanents for the myojin, but when the chain ends, i have -1 creature, what is more fatal than dont having so much mana. I also think about playing a Sliver Kill or Momir Vig, or both, but i dont know where i should take the slots. If they dont fit into the list, i Hussar and Familiar as a 4 off and have still a slot which i can use for something with cc6+, maybe a 4. myojin. The Phage kill simply sucks, Phage gets chumped or whatever, so i dont think we can waste 3-4 Slots for Phage+Acolyte.

bruno_tiete
12-03-2007, 01:01 PM
The problem is, that evoke is such a new mechanic and in legacy, a max of two of them are playable. Mulldrifter and Shriekmaw.



So have we deemed Mournwhelk unplayable?

Oros, the Avenger
12-03-2007, 02:01 PM
I think even Maw is unplayable, because you dont need mana, you need cards in hand, creature cards in hand. Hand Maw and Whelk are both creature card -1, so i think they arent useable. I tested quiet a lot today, and Momir Vig is sometimes really broken, but sometimes simply useless. I think im going to play it as a 3-off, because if you play him less than 3 times, you get him quiet late, when you dont need him. But he is the first card i would kick when Morningtide brings some good Evokers.

Jade
12-03-2007, 02:43 PM
I'm playing aethersnipe again in the place of shriekmaw, and I'm very happy with it. It is less of a dead draw if your opp has no annoying creatures on the table. just bounce your raven / hussar or, for the overkill, myojin.

Techy.

Oros, the Avenger
12-03-2007, 02:57 PM
I think, if I start disliking Momir, i cut him, play Hussar as a 4-off and AEthersnipe as a 1-off, because it can be tutored. But you cant bounce your hussar, Snipe doesnt have Flash ;)

rufus
12-03-2007, 03:22 PM
Well, there's whitemane lion which does have flash, and can, thus be used to recycle Mulldrifter as well as the Hussar.

How do people feel about Whirlpool Warrior/Rider/Drake?

Jade
12-03-2007, 03:27 PM
But you cant bounce your hussar, Snipe doesnt have Flash ;)

You can just pay the white mana for hussar, shouldn't be that hard normally.

You may also bounce a hardcasted mulldrifter for 4 cards. Never happened to me so far, though.

Edit: Lion is way better regarding the bouncing, but snipe also makes 7 mana out of 3.
I looked into the whirlpoolers too, but I'm afraid of getting a hand of lands / tutors / chalices (yeah, I still think this deck needs them. damn swords.). They're probably too random for a competitive deck.

bruno_tiete
12-04-2007, 12:23 PM
I looked into the whirlpoolers too, but I'm afraid of getting a hand of lands / tutors / chalices (yeah, I still think this deck needs them. damn swords.).

You should just not pass priority with a creature in play. Or is there something I am not seeing?




On a second note, I thought about a twist to the concept.

What if we used Cabal Therapy, Academy Rector and a singleton Wild Pair?
Maybe even phyrexian Tower. If you can manage to sacrifice a rector, you dont need to worry about drawing creatures, just playing them will get the sickness rolling.

Or maybe I had too much coffe.

Oros, the Avenger
12-04-2007, 12:44 PM
I would say, if i would get enough slots for the rector, the Therapy/Tower, i would rather play Dovescape instead of Wild Pair. Dovescape protects the Combo from being countered or whatever.

rufus
12-04-2007, 01:00 PM
Honestly, I don't think that Food Chain/Evoke has enough to offer at this point.

Mulldrifter is ok, Aethersnipe is potentially marginal, but the creature draw engine just isn't strong enough otherwise. To make something like this competitive or reliable really calls for a quantum leap of some kind.

If you look at the lists that people are coming up with here, the initial impetus is basically gone, and the deck is basically running the same Court Hussar/Raven Familiar engine that really seems like it would be stronger with Aluren.

Oros, the Avenger
12-04-2007, 01:08 PM
Test the deck, then you would notice that this deck is basically faster than Aluren, and the Main Engine isnt Hussar/Familiar, it is Iname/Myojin. You get to the 10 Mana for the myojin in no time, just 3-4 creatures. Then, you get massiv CA, and have 11 mana on the table.
Tomorrow is a little tournament here at the local store, i will test this deck there:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [A] Savannah
4 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [6E] Crystal Vein

// Creatures
4 [DIS] Court Hussar
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
4 [SC] Fierce Empath
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
1 [SOK] Iname as One
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
3 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds
2 [TO] Nantuko Cultivator

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere

rufus
12-04-2007, 02:22 PM
Test the deck, then you would notice that this deck is basically faster than Aluren, and the Main Engine isnt Hussar/Familiar, it is Iname/Myojin. You get to the 10 Mana for the myojin in no time, just 3-4 creatures.

With the 3 CC critters, the deck needs to spend 6 mana to get started - 3 for the Food Chain, and 3 for the ingnition critter. By comparison, Aluren goes off with 4 mana. It depends a bit on construction, but the start-up cost of Aluren is lower, so Aluren is faster. (Unless some exotic stuff gets involved.)

The list looks like it will cough up a lung in response to Duress or Force of Will. I would be inclined to:
1. Main-deck the Trininsphere.
2. Consider Maindecking Thorn of Amethyst.
3. Swap out the Pact of Negation in the SB for Force of Will.

Regardless, best of luck.

hi-val
12-04-2007, 02:41 PM
The mana costs are such that I back something like Ingot Chewer or Skyshroud Cutter to make the mana costs low enough.

There are also options like Saprazzan Legate for free doods to kickstart things.

Oros, the Avenger
12-04-2007, 02:47 PM
With the 3 CC critters, the deck needs to spend 6 mana to get started - 3 for the Food Chain, and 3 for the ingnition critter. By comparison, Aluren goes off with 4 mana. It depends a bit on construction, but the start-up cost of Aluren is lower, so Aluren is faster. (Unless some exotic stuff gets involved.

But because of Skyshroud Cutter, you can go off on Turn 2(!). Thats quite fast, because its quiet consistend.

@Saprazzan Legate: But for that, you have to play at least 1 Tropical Island or something like that, and even then its just a sideboard choice. I would test it at the tournament, because i know i will face at least 2 red decks, but i dont get the Tropical till tomorrow, so i dont play Legate.

@Force of Will: Why would you run FoW over the Pact? Both dont cost mana, but FoW cost a hand card(and in my deck, it costs a creature card).

DURESSyou92
12-04-2007, 02:51 PM
I see all of these card choices but I'm totally lost on what the actual list will look like. Can some one please post the most current list (with recruiters)? With the addiction of Skyshroud Cutter, are duals gonna be used now? Also I was thinking if the following card is of any use:

Diabolic Intent

1B

As an additional cost to play Diabolic Intent sacrifice a creature

Search your library for any card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library

Oros, the Avenger
12-04-2007, 03:01 PM
I play 4 Duals and 4 Shock Duals, so i can normally cast the Cutter constantly after i played Food Chain. But i dont have an actual list with recruiters.
After the tournament, i will try out the "Cutter-like" creautures.

rufus
12-04-2007, 03:38 PM
@Force of Will: Why would you run FoW over the Pact? Both dont cost mana, but FoW cost a hand card(and in my deck, it costs a creature card).

The auto-lose aspect of Pact makes it a very situational card.

Oros, the Avenger
12-04-2007, 03:52 PM
If we use it to protect our combo, then the auto-lose aspect doesnt matter. And because we normally combo out the same turn we play the first spell that we would have to force through, Pact>FoW

Lukas Preuss
12-04-2007, 05:52 PM
Pact sucks when you're trying to force through an early Food Chain.

Imagine this:
You: Food Chain
Opponent: FoW
You: Pact
Opponent: Daze
You: Scoop.

Without Pact, you might have been able to play another Food Chain some turns later.

This sucks... I haven't taken a closer look at your list, yet, but I think I will try to suggest some better card choices tomorrow. Now I'm just too tired.

Cavius The Great
12-04-2007, 07:44 PM
Pact sucks when you're trying to force through an early Food Chain.

Imagine this:
You: Food Chain
Opponent: FoW
You: Pact
Opponent: Daze
You: Scoop.

Without Pact, you might have been able to play another Food Chain some turns later.

This sucks... I haven't taken a closer look at your list, yet, but I think I will try to suggest some better card choices tomorrow. Now I'm just too tired.

I play Pact of Negation in Lich combo and if a scenario like this occurs, you'll probably lose anyways since your opponent will probably draw another counter around the same time you're able to play a second Food Chain. This makes the situation completely irrelevent. That being said, I still believe that Pact of Negation is your best bet.

rufus
12-05-2007, 12:08 AM
If we use it to protect our combo, then the auto-lose aspect doesnt matter. And because we normally combo out the same turn we play the first spell that we would have to force through, Pact>FoW

With the list you presented, the deck has exactly one card (Maga) that allows you do combo out directly. By playing pact (either of them, really) you're basically betting that you'll be able to get to, and cast a 23+ Mana Maga before the beginning of the next turn.

Pact is much better in decks that are actually committed to comboing out, or that rapidly establish mana production. I guess you're borderline not running enough blue cards to power FoW. I'd say run daze if you're playing duals, and Duress/Thoughtseize if you're running a more multi-color oriented deck.

Happy Gilmore
12-05-2007, 12:25 AM
I play Pact of Negation in Lich combo and if a scenario like this occurs, you'll probably lose anyways since your opponent will probably draw another counter around the same time you're able to play a second Food Chain. This makes the situation completely irrelevent. That being said, I still believe that Pact of Negation is your best bet.

Your arguement is that you should give up anyway since your opponent will probably draw a counterspell? That is the most flawed logic I have ever heard. If your worried about counters you make the deck more resiliant, not make is more conditional. Combo would never do well in legacy if a player conceeded after only trying to go off once.

Maveric78f
12-05-2007, 02:35 AM
Why not play Force AND Pact ? I even think that you can afford chalice in addition.

// Lands 22
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [A] Tropical island
4 [RAV] Breeding Pool
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine


// Creatures 22
4 [DIS] Court Hussar / cantrip
4 [UL] Raven Familiar / cantrip
2 [SC] Fierce Empath / tutor
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter / draw + mana generation
2 Evoke Bouncer / tool + mana generation
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals / kill
2 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds / ultimate draw
3 Cloud of Faeries / mana + cycling


// Spells 16
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 Fow
4 Blue Pact
4 Chalice of the void

Androstanolone
12-05-2007, 10:57 AM
Why not play Force AND Pact ? I even think that you can afford chalice in addition.

// Lands 22
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [A] Tropical island
4 [RAV] Breeding Pool
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine


// Creatures 22
4 [DIS] Court Hussar / cantrip
4 [UL] Raven Familiar / cantrip
2 [SC] Fierce Empath / tutor
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter / draw + mana generation
2 Evoke Bouncer / tool + mana generation
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals / kill
2 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds / ultimate draw
3 Cloud of Faeries / mana + cycling


// Spells 16
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 Fow
4 Blue Pact
4 Chalice of the void

I second this post, while I was reading the arguments about fow/pact I was thinking the same thing. This deck needs ample protection. Fow and pact provide exactly what you need. I don't think the list above is optimal because it has no way to find food chain, but I like the 8x free counters. I would cut the clouds for summoner's pacts. Better to use a free tutor that can fetch a better creature than to run suboptimal creatures. I would also fit in the 4x enlightened tutor (or some other way to get food chain if there's anything better, I'm not a fan of the enlightened).

Bovinious
12-05-2007, 11:14 AM
You guys realize Summoner's Pact only fetches a GREEN creature, right?

Cavius The Great
12-05-2007, 12:55 PM
You guys realize Summoner's Pact only fetches a GREEN creature, right?

Iname as One, Skyshroud Cutter and Nantuko Cultivator are all green, you fuckin' genius. :eek:

rufus
12-05-2007, 01:00 PM
Why not play Force AND Pact ? I even think that you can afford chalice in addition.
...

No offense, but that list looks like it would fizzle on the order of 25% of the time without outside assistance. It also looks like it would be better off with Duals/Fetches and Daze.

Cavius The Great
12-05-2007, 01:09 PM
Why not play Force AND Pact ? I even think that you can afford chalice in addition.

// Lands 22
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [A] Tropical island
4 [RAV] Breeding Pool
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine


// Creatures 22
4 [DIS] Court Hussar / cantrip
4 [UL] Raven Familiar / cantrip
2 [SC] Fierce Empath / tutor
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter / draw + mana generation
2 Evoke Bouncer / tool + mana generation
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals / kill
2 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds / ultimate draw
3 Cloud of Faeries / mana + cycling


// Spells 16
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 Fow
4 Blue Pact
4 Chalice of the void

How much does the Myojin draw on average? It seems highly likely that you would have a low permanent count the sooner you go off.

Willoe
12-05-2007, 01:45 PM
a creature version of thoughtseize would be mesmeric fiend as it allows to get insurance before playing a lethal maga. You also get to see what the opponent have in hand. That is important so you can wait playing your spells. Venser, as pointed out earlier can be a solving. Draining Whelk can also be the solution. Whelking a FoW nets you a 6/6 flying dude. That's freakin' awesome. + Opponent has pitched a card you so have card advantage! :P

@This deck doesn't fizzle 25% of the time. Not to say that it's the best combo deck in legacy (far from), but: It depends on matchup of course, it's impossible to generalize. Landstill will be a tough matchup, but it almost always kills against goblins. Depending on draw. Everything s depending on draw. If you draw a sucky hand or mullkill yourself, then it's game over for you. Without having tested or at least spent some time on it, you can't tell.

Androstanolone
12-05-2007, 01:49 PM
You guys realize Summoner's Pact only fetches a GREEN creature, right?


Iname as One, Skyshroud Cutter and Nantuko Cultivator are all green, you fuckin' genius. :eek:

So is fierce empath, which is some good in here. Iname as One is freaking insanely good though :).

rufus
12-05-2007, 03:23 PM
How much does the Myojin draw on average? It seems highly likely that you would have a low permanent count the sooner you go off.

Well, it should draw at least four cards since food chain, Myojin and 2 mana sources are likely to be in play. If the deck is playing a prison-like shell with cards like Chalice/Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst or Glowrider, there will probably be more.

Willoe
12-05-2007, 03:23 PM
I've just tested the list and it works wonders. Ten times testing went this way:
turn 2 kill
turn 3 kill
turn 4 kill
turn 6 kill (very bad hand, didn't drew any blue mana source)
turn 2 kill
turn 2 kill (could have been a turn 1 kill, I had a god draw. With a mox diamond in MD, this is possible. Consider that)
turn 4 kill
turn 3 kill
mulled my self into oblivion
turn 3 kill
just for fun: played the entire deck out and burned the opponent for about fifty at turn four a game. This one doesn't count, though. :P


as you see, there are a lot of early kills (with early, I mean turn 3 and/or earlier) 1 late kill and 1 suicide. The cultivators are the best card in the deck. Apparently, the opponent doesn't realize it. After a couple of myojin drawahelllots, you often got stuck with about eight lands in hand. Those are some pretty great ressources, as it offers massive deck thinning as well as draws into more mana sources, needed for the kill. What I foundout when I was testing:

Skyshroud Cutter is only good at accelerating yourself a turn earlier. I want to cut this to a 3 of as you don't want to see anymore than 1 each game. After that, they give 5 mana (meaning five life loss for the opponent when you're resolving maga) and five life to the opp. = no life change. You can use the cutter to continue playing creatures, but that is best case scenario. If you fizzle, there's only five life for the opponent, and maybe a hell lot of mana burn to yourself.

The mana base is shaky. Add a singleton tropical island! That was my problem in the turn 6 kill.

A utility creature that can be fetched by fierce empath would work wonders. A singleton mournwhelk would be really good for the deck. A singleton faultgrinder would also bee good. But mournwhelk would be better, since you can directly play it when eating empath. I'll test 1 too.

It's pretty hard to reach 8BBGG to iname, but when it's done, you've basically won. I would add a powerful spirit so you got a two (maybe one turn) clock. Myojin of Life's web comes to mind. Imagine this: playing iname, put it's effect on the stack, drag life's web into play, seeing winds and cultivator in hand. Draw a lot of cards with myojin and discard the lands to draw even more. That digs ķnto the deck for protection. (Venser?)

To summarize, these are the changes I've made:
+1 mournwhelk (serves as minor pre-board protection as well as a tutor target and eight mana)
+1 tropical island (when blue mana is needed)
-1 skyshroud cutter (read the explanation, it's pretty long:P)
-1 temple garden (there's enough GW mana, and the mana base is very painful. I reduced myself to four in a game against a friend. He had nothing good, so I beat him up.)

Anyway, I just realized how powerful the deck is!

@: the changes are there, after game 1. Glowrider over thorn, maybe meddling mage over chalice of the void, xantid swarm (in SB already), are all creatures who can be dropped early to protect your combo. The last game i played I had twenty cards in hand when going off with maga. Mesmeric Fiend and Meddling Mage (naming FoW) makes a good list of protection. Of course, the 3sphere offers the best protection as it locks down many decks. But since it isn't a creature, it won't be pretty good when you are about to going off. Am I right?

And Oros, please post some resulsts from the tournament! :D

Lothian
12-05-2007, 03:41 PM
How much does the Myojin draw on average? It seems highly likely that you would have a low permanent count the sooner you go off.

2 land + food chain + Myojin = 4 on minimum.
But that should be 4 altogether, as there are not many permanent to stay with the exception of Raven, so probably 6-7 for the second, which is a great bonus.

If you thought Mulldrifter was the essence of this deck, then you found his master

Mav,
I really like your build, good to come back to U/G with fow + chalice as disruption.

However, for the blue pact, I still don't agree too much. If you are talking about protecting a first Food Chain drop turn 2, then it's useless, as you won't win on that turn. Still it's some fow food, but any blue card would do, preferably not a creature.
On the other hand, it protects you when you combo off, but fow would do that as good, and at that point, your opponent shouldn't counter you if he didn't counter food chain, and it doesn't help you finding Food Chain or avoid fizzling in the middle of it.

In that perspective, I was thinking about an alternative:

+4 Meditate
-4 blue pact

1) This is still fow food
2) You may take a risk at the beginning to dig more for food chain
3) It prevents you from fizzling while you combo-off

But how do you pay the mana once you started the combo?

That's where faeries are so cool, because that's the only way to get normal mana during the combo, and more than probably, you should get U:2: with 2 lands untapped

Should put that to the test

And i would add 1 more Empath, to catch the aethersnipe which can provide you the 4 missing mana for the first myojin or get myojin or bounce faerie etc...

1 trick in that deck is to manage to keep permanents in play if possible for the myojin, bounce etc... (Raven being your best bet)

You have only 1 kill here, that's not much, you need to find it, and there are no tutor for it, so you need to draw your deck on the combo, to get the full 23 manas also anyway

ok against aggro if you find food chain quick enough
ok against combo, thanks to fow and chalice MD
bad against control, but we play combo hey!

Still, on my opinion, this deck is sub-par as long as you don't have a better tutor for Food Chain,

Let's wait until the next expansions :tongue:

Willoe
12-05-2007, 04:07 PM
I would first say: Vine Dryad is just as good as Skyshroud Cutter. I'll decrease the cutter count with 1 and test 1 vine dryad. Also, are you really sure that enlightened tutor isn't good enough? I would say it's the best. I don't want to use spoils or tainted pact. Honestly, I haven't tested mavericks UG build, I'll do it tomorrow and compare. Test results as well as game progress reports will come for each deck! Prepare to get a pretty long post... :P

rufus
12-05-2007, 04:15 PM
I would first say: Vine Dryad is just as good as Skyshroud Cutter. I'll decrease the cutter count with 1 and test 1 vine dryad. Also, are you really sure that enlightened tutor isn't good enough? I would say it's the best. I don't want to use spoils or tainted pact. Honestly, I haven't tested mavericks UG build, I'll do it tomorrow and compare. Test results as well as game progress reports will come for each deck! Prepare to get a pretty long post... :P

With the various deck-divers and the 2-producing lands, Long Term Plans or Intuition are probably worth looking at.

Willoe
12-05-2007, 04:51 PM
sadly, they are noncreature spells, which we can't use. It is an important thing that every business spell is a creature. A terrible fact, but I think that is the only solution due to the consistency of the deck. It has to been kept in a very tiht variation of spells unless you use cards like cloud of faeries, composite golem, quirion ranger and coal stoker.

Oros, the Avenger
12-06-2007, 08:32 AM
Ok, heres a short report of the tournament. And I have to say that it was only a fun tournament, with legacy decks and restrictions, but it wasnt DCI or something like that.

Round 1 vs. Stupid Red Burn
Game 1: I simply like this MU, its not more or less than simply great fun! He isnt fast enough. Turn 2 Combo&Kill
Game 2: Nearly like game 1, but with a 3rd Turn kill

1/0/0

Round 2 vs. NQGb
Game 1: Ok, i got a MU thats more than hard. 4 FoW, 8+ Handdisruption, sometimes Stifle. Wasn't fun.
Game 2: Mull to 5 to get at least a Xantid Swarm to hand. Played it, got to combo, but, if you believe me or not, I fizzled with just 12 mana. Played Maga, he dropped down to 9 (I like fetchies on his side) and swing for the kill before he found the removal.
Game 3: Ok, nice hand, Xantid Swarm+Food Chain+Savannah+City o. Traitors+Pact of Negation and 2 creatures. He lets me discard Swarm with Thoughtseize, next turn discard Pact&Food Chain -.-". Dropped a Goyf, and kills me.
1/1/0

Round 3 vs. Random Spanish Inquisition
Game 1: Ok, its quiet hard to call this deck SI, because it was just as Random as some Casual decks. So i killed on turn 3
Game 2: Without Sideboarding, i kill turn 2

Round 4 vs. Vial Goblins
Game 1: He brings me down to 5 life before i draw the 3rd land to play Food Chain. Then Cutter->Combo->Maga for about 30
Game 2: Godhand, 2. Turn Kill!

I won the Tournament, and got 6 Booster ;)

Cavius The Great
12-06-2007, 08:41 AM
Ok, heres a short report of the tournament. And I have to say that it was only a fun tournament, with legacy decks and restrictions, but it wasnt DCI or something like that.

Round 1 vs. Stupid Red Burn
Game 1: I simply like this MU, its not more or less than simply great fun! He isnt fast enough. Turn 2 Combo&Kill
Game 2: Nearly like game 1, but with a 3rd Turn kill

1/0/0

Round 2 vs. NQGb
Game 1: Ok, i got a MU thats more than hard. 4 FoW, 8+ Handdisruption, sometimes Stifle. Wasn't fun.
Game 2: Mull to 5 to get at least a Xantid Swarm to hand. Played it, got to combo, but, if you believe me or not, I fizzled with just 12 mana. Played Maga, he dropped down to 9 (I like fetchies on his side) and swing for the kill before he found the removal.
Game 3: Ok, nice hand, Xantid Swarm+Food Chain+Savannah+City o. Traitors+Pact of Negation and 2 creatures. He lets me discard Swarm with Thoughtseize, next turn discard Pact&Food Chain -.-". Dropped a Goyf, and kills me.
1/1/0

Round 3 vs. Random Spanish Inquisition
Game 1: Ok, its quiet hard to call this deck SI, because it was just as Random as some Casual decks. So i killed on turn 3
Game 2: Without Sideboarding, i kill turn 2

Round 4 vs. Vial Goblins
Game 1: He brings me down to 5 life before i draw the 3rd land to play Food Chain. Then Cutter->Combo->Maga for about 30
Game 2: Godhand, 2. Turn Kill!

I won the Tournament, and got 6 Booster ;)

Gratz on the win, buddy. How many people attended?

Oros, the Avenger
12-06-2007, 09:30 AM
I dont exactly now, but there werent many. I think not more than 10. It was a small tournament.
@willoe: Whats your actuall decklist?

Willoe
12-06-2007, 09:48 AM
nice tournament, good you won :) this may not be a deck to watch :P however, this is some pretty good results, and I will test against rock + landstill, since those seems to be the hardest matchups with the following decklist:

3 Fierce Empath
4 Court Hussar
4 Raven Familiar
4 Mulldrifter
3 Myojin of Seeing Winds
2 Nantuko Cultivator
2 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Vine Dryad
1 Iname As One
1 Mournwhelk
1 Maga, Traitor To Mortals
1 Ęthersnipe

4 Food Chain
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact

1 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Savvanah
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

SB:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Glowrider
4 Meddling Mage
1 Spirit of the Night

this one doesn't have any protection in MB, (well, mournwhelk which can become handy in certain situations)... What I'e just noticed is that myojin doesn't gets its counter when dragged into play by iname. I feel that a shame, and I want to include some alternative win so that Iname can drag a i.e. spirit of the night to do some serious damage. SB is chalice 3sphere which is pretty broken in this deck and the mages, of course. Glowrider is there in favor of thorn of amethyst. If I include more glowriders, you can cast 4 and the opponent will have to pay 6WW for a WoG, so the deck can win in an alternate way. Can you post yours so I know how you do the boarding etc.? It looks interesting with the use of pacts, I just feel they are too dangerous to use.

Conclusion: An alternate win (spirit of the night) seems necessary against landstill decks, stifle will then kill you of. I then think it's better to have an 8/8 (iname) and a 6/5 (spirit) to kill with rather than one 20/20. Two creatures will require two STP's.

Ps. good to hear you could actually win with a nonlethal maga anyway. The deck seems pretty strong. Also, since it has so many wierd card choices, people don't know what to name with mage, needle, therapy and which spells to counter (except for food chain of course, that's pretty easy to figure out)

Cavius The Great
12-06-2007, 10:43 AM
I dont exactly now, but there werent many. I think not more than 10. It was a small tournament.
@willoe: Whats your actuall decklist?

Hmmm.... I don't think winning a tourney out of 10 people is really relevent. Congratulations nevertheless. I hope you are just as successfully in the much larger events.

Oros, the Avenger
12-06-2007, 01:14 PM
I never said it would be relevant. I just had the chance to test some MU. Im going to test some other "free creatures" like the Dryad or the Cutter. And next month, theres again a ca.10 people tournament ;)
Maybe its going to be every month :D

Cire
12-06-2007, 04:03 PM
Would it be useless to add changeling Titan to the deck for 6 more mana?

You get Iname into play, search out the titan remove Iname, sac the titan for 6 mana get Iname back into play and get the Myojin?

Willoe
12-06-2007, 04:35 PM
sounds pretty good to me, I'll test it. However, we don't need mana to get the weel going. A singleton titan would make a good place in the deck if it weren't for the lack of tutors. This SCS deck can only win with food chain. So we can't waste space in the deck ;S. The titan can maybe become useful with raven familiar or fierce empath. Sadly, the titan hasn't flash so it can't response an evoke trigger, which may seem like the greatest advantage. I'll test one, thus I don't expect something special...

Maveric78f
12-06-2007, 05:39 PM
I don't get why you are playing iname. Did you realize that when Myojin is put into play (and not played), it does not have its counter. Eventually iname is good for mana producing, but that a bit week to my mind.

Maveric78f
12-06-2007, 05:56 PM
2 land + food chain + Myojin = 4 on minimum.
But that should be 4 altogether, as there are not many permanent to stay with the exception of Raven, so probably 6-7 for the second, which is a great bonus.

Usually, my first myojin is at least at 6 thanks to chalice, another creature and diamond mox (when I used to play it). As I never tester with several myojin I don't at how much is my second but clearly more than 8 to my mind.


If you thought Mulldrifter was the essence of this deck, then you found his master

Mulldrifter is surely the best creature though : it's the only one that provides mana at the same time it provides card advantage. Plus it's playable before the combo to find the food chain.


Mav,
I really like your build, good to come back to U/G with fow + chalice as disruption.

Thx. Damn, that was politeness to criticize it later. Arg!


However, for the blue pact, I still don't agree too much. If you are talking about protecting a first Food Chain drop turn 2, then it's useless, as you won't win on that turn. Still it's some fow food, but any blue card would do, preferably not a creature.

Cloud of faeires can help you combo the turn you play food chain.


On the other hand, it protects you when you combo off, but fow would do that as good, and at that point, your opponent shouldn't counter you if he didn't counter food chain, and it doesn't help you finding Food Chain or avoid fizzling in the middle of it.

The deck is supposed to have quite easily 3UU. My deck is not supposed to combo before turn 4 you know.


In that perspective, I was thinking about an alternative:
+4 Meditate
-4 blue pact

I would prefer another drawer, like impulse, thirst for knowledge, fact or fiction or intuition.


1) This is still fow food
yep


2) You may take a risk at the beginning to dig more for food chain

I would dig that much without taking a risk. (the best is intuition at this stage)


3) It prevents you from fizzling while you combo-off

The same (the best is meditate at this stage)

Ordering : best to worst
// before combo : intuition, impulse, TFK, FoF, meditate
// after combo : meditate, FoF, TFK, impulse, intuition

I'm quite sure that meditate is the worst overall, but I really don't know how to choose among the 4 others.


bad against control, but we play combo hey!
Not that bad. Against control, you take your time, you can even try the aggro mode.

The problem of the deck is aggro control.

94teen
12-09-2007, 11:50 AM
So a few comments and my most recent build of this. First off, if you want to go aggro, make sure to include a copy of Flame-Kin Zealot and Myojin of Life's Web. Myojin of Life's Web -> Drop your hand with Flame-kin and win, especially with Summoner's Pacts to find something like a Krosan Cloudscraper or another Myojin.

Second, Mournwhelk isn't very good unless you're usuing it for mana, in which case Changeling Titan is better because it lets you reuse 187 effects. By the time you play mournwhelk, you're comboing off, at which point they should've used their counterspells already. If they haven't, then you win anyway because you reach a critical mass of mana and cards in hand (if you're running pact). I came to the same conclusion with Myojin of Night's Reach, except that Myojin of Night's Reach was better (if harder to cast).

Third, after some thinking, I decided that I don't like Imperial Recruiter in this deck. He tutors for lots of small things (mulldrifter, fierce empath, maga, etc.), but he doesn't help other than that. He makes you a little more consistent, but requires mana for it to work. Maybe he could work as a 2 or 3 of, but I don't like him as an engine. I prefer Summoner's Pact because it finds your free creatures and the like, which makes it easy to go off the turn you play foodchain. Something that Imperial Recruiter can't do.

That said, here's what I'm testing right now:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp


4 Duress
3 Pact of Negation
3 Summoners Pact
1 Thoughtseize
4 Intuition

3 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Mulldrifter
2 Myojin of Seeing Winds
1 Nantuko Cultivator
1 Skyshroud Cutter
3 Fierce Empath
7 Court Hussar
1 Changeling Titan
1 Aethersnipe
1 Maga

this solves the Mournwhelk problem with Mesmeric Fiends and Duress. Mesmeric Fiend allows you to drop a turn 3 foodchain and go off. The reason this works is that you just need to resolve foodchain. If you resolve foodchain, you win. THat's the basic principle of the deck. After you resolve foodchain, you shouldn't feel bad about removing Mesmeric Fiend and giving them back their FoW. Fiend also lets you play some fun stack tricks midcombo to permanently get rid of disruption spells.

Summoner's Pact finds Skyshroud Cutter to combo off turn 2 or 3, and all the other stuff is pretty standard I think. I'm on the fence between cutting the thoughtseize for another pact or another tutor, but I'll let testing decide that.

I don't like Iname as one because I feel the draw engine is fragile enough as is, and 3 myojins just to let iname be helpful is clunky. Changeling titan lets me reuse 187 effects like Mulldrifter (shriekmaw out of the board) and Nantuko Cultivator, which is nice tech in this deck because of the amount of cards you draw, half of which are useless. This is a tutorable way to get rid of all the extra land, and add a beatstick if you want to board in the creatures plan.

I'm not so sure about intuition and Ancient Tomb. They do allow for the off chance of a turn 2 kill, but I think I'd prefer brainstorm/ponder and going down to 18 lands or so. I kinda like the idea of trying to board into a UBg Thresh variant post board, though that does see kinda unfeasible with the deck set up the way it is now.

Willoe
12-09-2007, 05:52 PM
some more things I (along with everybody else I think) discovered:

There is a perfect, pretty unchangeable draw engine in the deck. It consists of at least 4*raven. 4*court hussar, 4*mulldrifter, 2-4 fierce empath, 1-2* nantuko cultivator, and 1-3* myojin of seeing winds. (4 summoner's pact, theoretically) Perfect means of course that they are unchangeable, along with 4 food chain and at least 4 cards to tutor it. This is annoying, espcially when trying out new tech. Maga is my fav kill as it only requires 1 card. But the maa also makes a great disadvantage: the chance of fizzling. In 1 one of my approx. 50 games I've played so far, I played against landstill. I got a god draw and he drew crappy. I was resolving all my creatures, but ended up flooded with fourty mana. It killed me off as I couldn't pay for any creatures. This is the time were i could need a nantuko cultivator (the best draw in the deck). The other game I was playing against landstill, I resolved food chain, but I ended up with an Iname and a Myojin in play. I've cast a pact and I couldn't pay for it. Pretty unlucky, but it doesn't have happened at any other time due to the draw engine. I think it's pretty good, and so good that it not really can be changed. My deck doesn't have any disruption in MB, but has a 3sphere, chalice, mesmeric fiend and myojin of cleansing fire and myojin of night's reach in SB. Is that actually a good SB or does it suck? I think the greatest advantage of the deck is it's borading possibilities in game 2 and 3. No other deck except for dragon stompy, stax and 5/3 can play under pressure of a chalice1 or chalice2 and 3sphere.

Cire
12-09-2007, 09:19 PM
How bout adding more nightmares to the deck?

you can play a nightmare sacrifice it and have it's effect become permenant, you can use nightmares such as Hypnox to remove an opponents hand and then a couple of Laquatus's Champions to win...or just get hypnox and then petradon, use the fire breath abilty to avoid mana burning yourself and put your opponent on a 4 turn clock with 2 less lands and no hand...

greenmage
12-10-2007, 06:18 AM
I have a two ideas:

1
Man o war

Sir bounce-a-lot should be very useful insofar as he helps reusing any of the draw critters, including our beloved king arthur (myojin).

2
Glimpse of nature

1cmc spell, and should draw a lot. In this deck I deem it more useful than the U draw spells.
Drawback: doesn't work under chalice.

Pact: only helps midcombo, and I think a competent control player will focus on countering the food chain. Pact doesn't help in that scenario.

mournwhelk: ditto

FoW seems like the best bet as a counter.

Maveric78f
12-10-2007, 10:20 AM
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp


4 Duress
3 Pact of Negation
3 Summoners Pact
1 Thoughtseize
4 Intuition

3 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Mulldrifter
2 Myojin of Seeing Winds
1 Nantuko Cultivator
1 Skyshroud Cutter
3 Fierce Empath
7 Court Hussar
1 Changeling Titan
1 Aethersnipe
1 Maga


Have you already won a single legacy match with this deck ? Except 60-islands, I don't see how.

Willoe
12-10-2007, 10:33 AM
lol^ :smile:
anyway, I can't really figure out what to take out for FoW. Fow, mulldrifter, raven and hussar make it out for sixteen blue cards. Is that really enough? Also because raven, hussar and mulldrifter leaves hand ASAP when food chain is played?

bruno_tiete
12-11-2007, 07:18 AM
Glimpse of nature
.

Now that could work.



I've tried a friend of mine's Kobold Clamp build in Vintage last week and the deck seemed to just not combo because you either ran out of mana or creatures to equip. He used Glimpse of Nature, but had no mana engine (despite my arguing he should run Carnival of Souls...). This FC deck has a pretty solid mana flow. Cards given by a single Glimpse should be enough to keep going.

Maveric78f
12-11-2007, 07:21 AM
According to me Glimpse is a win more card. Everything but good.

bruno_tiete
12-11-2007, 07:53 AM
According to me Glimpse is a win more card. Everything but good.

Is this to say that, once you resolve FC, there's not a chance you fizzle?

rufus
12-11-2007, 10:57 AM
Is this to say that, once you resolve FC, there's not a chance you fizzle?

Depending on the list, I suspect that the deck is fairly likely to fizzle even with food chain in play. However, Glimpse is going to be marginal, unless the food chain is in play considering the relatively large casting of the creatures, and can't be cast mid-combo.

I may have missed discussion on it, but it seems like Llanowar Empath could find a place in this deck as an engine creature in addition to Court Hussar and Raven Familiar.

Cavius The Great
12-11-2007, 11:53 AM
Have you guys considered Priest of Gix? Seems like a solid inclusion.

rufus
12-11-2007, 12:21 PM
Have you guys considered Priest of Gix? Seems like a solid inclusion.

The deck really isn't hurting for Mana, so Priest of Gix isn't that great. If the goal were to finish out with Tendrils, then he'd be much more interesting. I'm pretty sure he's been mentioned before in the thread.

Maveric78f
12-11-2007, 07:55 PM
Have you guys considered Priest of Gix? Seems like a solid inclusion.

Cloud of Faeries is far superior because it gives the colour you want (black is bad compared to blue or green), and it can cycle.

Brushwagg
12-11-2007, 09:27 PM
Here's a list I'm currently trying to test so I have no numbers on it.

U/G/w/(r) Chains

//Combo
4x Food Chain
4x Skyshroud Cutter
2x Myojin of Seeing Winds
4x Raven Familiar
3x COurt Hussar
4x Mulldrifter

//Draw & Search
4x Brainstrom
3x Intuition

//Protection
4x Xantid Swarm
3x Orim's Chant
4x Force of Will

//Wins
1x Maga, Tratior of Mortals
1x Kiki Jiki
1x Sky Hussar

//Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
2x Forest
2x Savannah
4x Tropical Island
4x Windswept Heath

I tried to keep the drawing to a single color so there is no guessing what color you need.

@POG:Very nice addition, I'm trying to get a version together using Black. 7 mana for 3 in never bad, not to mention you can use the 3 Black made by POG coming into play on other things if need be.

Maveric78f
12-12-2007, 04:26 AM
@POG:Very nice addition, I'm trying to get a version together using Black. 7 mana for 3 in never bad, not to mention you can use the 3 Black made by POG coming into play on other things if need be.

Like ? Sorry but apart from trinisphere there is absolutely no card I want to play for BBB.

About your list:
- it looks like it would fizzle quite often (few drawers overall). It's just an intuition, so I'm probably wrong.
- I think you don't need a MD alternative win condition. Leave it to the SB.
- Xantid Swarm is nice but not Orim's chant. Abeyance would be better in that slot (draws so it's never completely useless). However, I think I prefer the Pact+FoW+chalice or xantid shell.
- 18 lands is far too few. It's compeletely crazy. 22 looks to be the right number to me.
- you play no shuffling creature so brainstorm is almost useless during the combo. That's a pity. Actually I think that brainstorm is quite bad in the deck. It can justify to play 1 or 2 lands less (not 4) but it requires to play untap effects (cloud of faeries is your friend) and shuffling effects (fierce empath/imperial recruiter).

greenmage
12-12-2007, 04:36 AM
Depending on the list, I suspect that the deck is fairly likely to fizzle even with food chain in play. However, Glimpse is going to be marginal, unless the food chain is in play considering the relatively large casting of the creatures, and can't be cast mid-combo.

I may have missed discussion on it, but it seems like Llanowar Empath could find a place in this deck as an engine creature in addition to Court Hussar and Raven Familiar.

Well, with the free creatures (cloud of faeries, cutter) it shouldn't be all too hard drawing two cards out of it pre chain. Which doesn't seem all too bad.

But I admit that the list I was tinkering with also included ashnod's altar, which made me slightly less dependent on drawing food chain.

Hmm, there are some nice artifact critters in etched orakel and mindless automaton. But they cost 4 mana. Unsure...

Benie Bederios
12-12-2007, 06:21 AM
Not wanting to be rude or something, but can somebody tell me whay this deck is better than Aluren. The only reason I see, is that it's a little faster, but it misses alot of the disruption Aluren has got, and most creatures are pretty dead before Chain comes online. Or am I missing the obvious...

BB

FredMaster
12-12-2007, 06:39 AM
No... Nobody ever said it would be better or even equal to Aluren's level. :cool:

Maveric78f
12-12-2007, 08:22 AM
Not wanting to be rude or something, but can somebody tell me whay this deck is better than Aluren. The only reason I see, is that it's a little faster, but it misses alot of the disruption Aluren has got, and most creatures are pretty dead before Chain comes online. Or am I missing the obvious...

BB

Well, for the moment it's not better than aluren, far from it but it has a lot of advantages compared to it :
- the key-spell costs 1 G less => 1 turn before and enables the 2mana producing lands
- it's trinisphere/sphere resilient
- it's not needlable (and a lot of random players forget it)
- it's not chaliceable/balanceable
- it wins the turn when you combo

Willoe
12-12-2007, 02:05 PM
the aluren deck is infinity, and this deck's not and assymetric. The biggest weakness of aluren is that your opponent gets to use the ability as well. An allured ronom unicorn (okay, bad example) destroys it at any time. Often, opponent gets to wiat until he has untapped his mana sources. Plus, you can hold back the aluren or just smash face with goyfs, bobs or whatever. The biggest weakness of food chain is that the creatures is significant worse without the food chain itself. However, food chain's biggest strength is the possibility of boarding (or maindecking) trinisphere or chalice of the void. Unlucky, the creatures are RFG'ed instad of sacrificing. If it was so, it would be pretty awesome with hulk :P

Zork
12-12-2007, 03:03 PM
Often, opponent gets to wiat until he has untapped his mana sources.

This is irrelevant unless he uses some sort of split second card that prevents you from swinging in for the win because he topdecked it. The aluren combo eventually gives you almost infinite force of wills and almost infinite cabal therapies (provided you didn't flash them all back).

In essence, winning the next turn doesn't matter.

As for this deck, after some testing, I don't really feel like it has potential to be competitive in a real environment unless we can fit a serious disruption package in, like FoW, Pact of Negation, Toughtseize, or therapy.

Oros, the Avenger
12-16-2007, 04:36 AM
Pact and FoW can be played, i only play Pact and Xantid Swarm, because the Swarm attacks, so you have Protection, and then you can go off and get 2 mana from the Swarm. I think with Morningtide, this deck will get more populare, because i hope some good Evokers will push this deck to some good places. Also, i didnt see Aluren go off on turn 2, and Food Chain can do that quiet consistend.

godryk
12-16-2007, 05:38 AM
Just an idea. Now that I see some people in Vintage putting together Pact of Negation and Platinum Angel in the same deck, I just thought that Summoner's Pact for Fierce Empath for Platinum Angel with Pact of Negation backup sounds cute. I know that it can be dangerous, that the opponent can grip the Angel, but it's unexpected and you only need a turn. It's just a thing to consider.

Willoe
12-16-2007, 06:36 AM
I'm sorry, but that simply sucks. The deck can't afford to wait a turn and use some space in the deck by adding angels. They don't fit in the deck. And Oros, do you know when previews start on mtg.com and when morningtide is released?

Oros, the Avenger
12-16-2007, 08:02 AM
Some cards were released at the world, but saddly all of these werent evokers. I think it wont take so long till previews start, maybe first january or something like that.

Cavius The Great
12-16-2007, 01:21 PM
Why do you need more evokers? Are you currently unsatisfied with your creature setup? In other words, what could be improved upon?

Oros, the Avenger
12-16-2007, 02:31 PM
I hope to get an evoker with an tutor effect. Nothing more ;) Evokers are simply the best mana producers in the deck except Iname

Maveric78f
12-17-2007, 05:20 AM
I hope to get a good evoker with a CC>=6. Or an evoker able to tutor enchantments as Oros, but I'm not as naive as he is ;-)

Tao
12-17-2007, 05:58 AM
I said nothing, especially not about Food Chain and Rector being a Combo.

meanee
12-17-2007, 07:28 AM
Maybe you missed the part about food chain REMOVING creatures from the game... that makes the rector a bad expensive tutor..

- meanee

Tao
12-17-2007, 07:37 AM
Yes, I missed that part : (

Cire
12-17-2007, 01:27 PM
how bout a win con in the form of tidespout Tyrant, if we can get him into play then continue combing out we bounce all of the opponents permenants and then get myojin of night's reach out..and basicly win

heres an Experimental list

4 Raven Familiar
4 COurt Hussar
4 Mulldrifter
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Fierce Empath
3 Myojin of Seeing Winds
2 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Myojin of nights reach
-26

4 Enlightened tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Force of Will
3 Food Chain
2 Intuition
-17

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
3 City of Traitors
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Forest
-17

zulander
12-17-2007, 01:51 PM
Hrm.. have you guys tried Food Chain --> Mull drifter --> protean Hulk --> win?

This way you can always play goyfs in the main as backup win cons. And if you go off and they think they have tech like crypts and what not on the board just go hulk -> 3x goyf and LOL in their face.

Bovinious
12-17-2007, 01:56 PM
Hrm.. have you guys tried Food Chain --> Mull drifter --> protean Hulk --> win?

This way you can always play goyfs in the main as backup win cons. And if you go off and they think they have tech like crypts and what not on the board just go hulk -> 3x goyf and LOL in their face.

If your going for Hulk I dont see why not go for tradition Hulk packages like Disciple, Slivers, or Hussar, but I guess the fact you can actually cast the Goyfs may make Hulk a good backup plan...Oh and way to copy Shaun Holloway with the Goyf trio :tongue:

zulander
12-17-2007, 02:03 PM
If your going for Hulk I dont see why not go for tradition Hulk packages like Disciple, Slivers, or Hussar, but I guess the fact you can actually cast the Goyfs may make Hulk a good backup plan...Oh and way to copy Shaun Holloway with the Goyf trio :tongue:
You missed the point completely, I'm saying go for the combo game 1, then when they side in combo hate go with trips goyf because most likely the cards they side in are things like leyline of the void/enchantment removal and yixlid jailors or something like that.

Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 02:10 PM
You missed the point completely, I'm saying go for the combo game 1, then when they side in combo hate go with trips goyf because most likely the cards they side in are things like leyline of the void/enchantment removal and yixlid jailors or something like that.

Protean Hulk doesn't work. Food Chain removes it from the game thus resulting in Hulk having no effect since the trigger effect refers to the graveyard.

Willoe
12-17-2007, 04:46 PM
Let's just sum up food chains oracle text so we don't get any "unavailable" card combos. Of course, if we were MB'ing Therapy and alike, we could get a nice sacrifical suit. But that doesn't fit in the deck at all.

Gatherer Oracle Export
december 17, 2007


Food Chain
2G
Enchantment
Remove a creature you control from the game: Add X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the removed creature's converted mana cost plus one. Spend this mana only to play creature spells.

If food chain had sacrifice as a cost, it would already broken hulk I think. Then it would already be proven competitive by adding INSERT BROKEN GFP TRIGGER card i.e. hulk as a great example.

Can anyone post a consistent deck with MB chalice, 3sphere and FoW if it really exists?

Fons
12-17-2007, 06:06 PM
I started testing this deck and I stumbled upon Howling Wolf and Nesting Wurm. They replenish your hand and allow you to build up mana and give you a better chance to get what you want.

Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 07:06 PM
I started testing this deck and I stumbled upon Howling Wolf and Nesting Wurm. They replenish your hand and allow you to build up mana and give you a better chance to get what you want.

How would these cards generate mana? It looks like they would only be viable in a storm based version of the deck but I don't think people are fully trying to explore that aspect of the deck at the moment.

Happy Gilmore
12-17-2007, 07:25 PM
I started testing this deck and I stumbled upon Howling Wolf and Nesting Wurm. They replenish your hand and allow you to build up mana and give you a better chance to get what you want.

The wolf seems best. But the issue is not the engine, it is the win condition. They all suck. Most of them take 2 turns at least. Why does Spirit of the Night have to be legendary! sigh...


How would these cards generate mana? It looks like they would only be viable in a storm based version of the deck but I don't think people are fully trying to explore that aspect of the deck at the moment.

One wolf in hands means you can essentially gain 8 mana for one card. And more than that 1 wolf in hand (4 in deck) can give you any two colors (3G 5 of any color). Thats an amazing advantage because at times you will need both Blue and green off one card in hand to combo off.

A hand with Wolf, and Empath can get you Grozoth + win conditions (3 mana to go off). The same works for Mournwelk + Empath (4 mana to go off). The other benefit is being able to simply search up 4 wolves and go beatdown if neccessary.

Happy Gilmore
12-17-2007, 07:47 PM
What this deck needs is this to be printed in the next set

7UU
Trample, Flying

The first two noncreature spells played each turn are countered.

6/6

rufus
12-17-2007, 10:23 PM
What this deck needs is this to be printed in the next set

7UU
Trample, Flying

The first two noncreature spells played each turn are countered.

6/6

CC-wise that seems out of line compared the the Nullstone Gargoyle (which, I'd guess is what you're referring to.)

Really, it's a pity that Spirit of the Night is Legendary, otherwise, it would make a neat win condition. (Grozoth -> Myojin -> Spirt of the Night x 4)

How about:

GGG5
Trample
When protoplasm comes into play, search your library for a creature card and put it into your hand
Evoke 2GG
5/5

Willoe
12-18-2007, 07:04 AM
let's see what morningtide will bring us. That is the conclusion! Otherwise, I still think the deck's competitive, but not so competitive that it could win a gauntlet of say, landstill, meathooks, TES, solidarity, gobs and thresh at any time. Landstill, meathooks and thresh are all hard matchups.

Oros, the Avenger
12-18-2007, 08:33 AM
Why do we need Spirits of the Night as a win condition? We got a nice win with Maga. We get tons of draw, so we should have enough Pacts/FoW to bring Maga down to the table.

No_Life_No_Future
12-19-2007, 12:30 AM
Here are some cards which grab other cards to create a link of saccing and generate mana. I found I dont know how good they are but maybe they will help:

Green:
Aurochs Herd 5G (finds itself)
Fierce Empath 2G (finds creature cc 6+)
Howling Wolf 2GG (finds itself)
Nesting Wurm 4GG (finds itslef)
Skyshroud Sentinel 2G (finds itself)

Name as One 8BBGG (finds a Spirit Permenent)

Panglacial Wurm 5GG (CAN BE PLAYED ANYTIME YOU SEARCH YOUR LIBRARY)<----I havent seen this mentioned yet in the thread but it looks amazing.


Red:
Avarax 3RR (finds itself)
Embermage Goblin 3R (finds itself)
Goblin Matron 2R (finds itself)

Imperial Recruiter 2R (finds any creature with power 2 or less)

Black (wow black sucks) : none

white (" "): none

Blue:
Grozoth 6UU (finds as many cards with cc 9 you want)
Trinket mage (can get artifact cc 0 to 1)


What do you guys think about Panglacial Wurms?

Hope this is helpfull.

Oros, the Avenger
12-19-2007, 06:52 AM
Creatures that find themselves doesnt help much if you dont play Panglacial Wurm. We dont need the mana, we need the creatures. If we get a creature that finds itself again, we play it 4 times and have -1 creature in hand. Thats the problem.

Willoe
12-19-2007, 07:33 AM
To sum it up for suggestions:

Creature chains are (unless they find other than themselves) useless.

Evoke creatures (or creatures that both add mana and some nice effect are rather good).

Protection suit consisting of creatures are what's needed.

Massive draw creatures (or conditional draw effects like Nantuko Cultivators) are wanted!

Also, rumors about evoke creatures that generate card advantage by letting you either tutor, brainstorm effects, scry effetcs or simply draw cards would be very appreciated!

Not to say I am leading this thread and decide what advices are good and which advices that are bad, but I'm just posting this so noone wastes their time :rolleyes:

Alfred
12-19-2007, 11:43 AM
Mesmiric Feind could be a nice creature to go into the creature disruption package. If you want to remove the card permanently, just stack it's CITP ability and remove it for Food Chain.

You can also play it out before Food Chain to bait out countermagic.

Maveric78f
12-19-2007, 12:03 PM
Actually when food chain is into play, you don't want to remove a card permanently from you'r opponent's hand but you want to win the game, which requires to draw a lot.

3 things are useful :
- tutor for food chain before combo and not be completely useless during combo = difficult. An evoke tutor would fit perfectly
- draw/dig : useful before combo and during combo if it is creature.
- creature tutor during combo, but even imperial recruiter looks weak in this slot.

Fons
12-20-2007, 01:14 PM
Maga is a great win condition however maybe for protection play erayo? Think about it he costs 2 and flips easily, you only need 1.

HdH_Cthulhu
12-20-2007, 02:49 PM
Panglacial Wurm

Could i play the Wurm foodchain it into another 4 times during a single searching effect to get 4 mana from your library?

If yes (I dont think so) this would be pretty cool! Even cooler as the danger of the cool things rule!

Wobbles The Goose
12-20-2007, 05:39 PM
Could i play the Wurm foodchain it into another 4 times during a single searching effect to get 4 mana from your library?


No this doesn't work. After you play Panglacial Wurm, you pick up the search effect where you left off. When the search effect finishes resolving, the active player gets priority with Panglacial Wurm on the stack. The wurm has to resolve in order for you to be able to sacrifice it, and the resolution of the spell does not occure until the search is complete, at which point it's too late to find other wurms.

Lemuria
12-23-2007, 12:17 AM
I don't know if it has been said before, but what about Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal to speed up the combo?

Oros, the Avenger
12-23-2007, 02:27 AM
Maybe the Petal, because the Mox takes us a card we could need in the combo. Willoe and I thought about returning to the 5c-manabase, to get more solutions. We could add more handdisruption if we know the meta. Lotus Petal would also help that 5c manabase.

Willoe
12-23-2007, 02:07 PM
the disruption/protection suit is very important. Mesmeric Fiend makes it out perfect, not because it draws cards, but it knocks off FoWs and other cards we don't like to see. And yes, this can be done by removing fiend in response to CIP trigger. The leaves play phrase that reads "that player" hasn't even found a player yet, therefore that ability does nothing, while the CIP effect does. This is why a kill condition with 4 laquatus' champion also's possible. Also, Soul Scourge can also be used xD

Sanguine Voyeur
12-23-2007, 02:12 PM
This is why a kill condition with 4 laquatus' champion also's possible. Also, Soul Scourge can also be used xDNot true.
Q: What about Laquatus's Champion (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Laquatus%27s+Champion)?
A: The Champions leave play ability doesn't return anything; it just lets the target player (chosen when the comes into play ability is put on the stack) gain six life. This will happen normally.Source (http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Soul+Scourge)
Two Nightmare creatures (Soul Scourge (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Soul_Scourge%27%29) and Laquatus's Champion (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:autoCardWindow%28%27Laquatus%5Bs_Champion%27%29)) make a player lose and gain life instead of removing cards or permanents from the game. If either of these creatures leaves play before its comes-into-play ability resolves, the leaves-play ability will resolve first. The player targeted by the comes-into-play ability will first gain life, then lose life.Source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/satschoolarchive&term=Soul_Scourge)

Willoe
12-23-2007, 02:36 PM
seriously? Damn. It's a grammatical problem. I thought it was because "that" wasn't player "yet". Since I'm not a genius at english grammar, I cannot explain it. But if it's wrong, then we virtually only have maga kill or grozoth toolbox :P

ccmon
12-23-2007, 11:23 PM
This is a REALLY interesting concept.
For sheer mana production, it probably doesn't get better than Ingot Chewer.




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Cavius The Great
12-23-2007, 11:30 PM
From the look of the lists, this deck only runs 1 maga. Since maga isn't a spirit and can't be fetched by Iname, how do you plan on drawing one, without Imperial Recruiter?

Di
12-24-2007, 12:59 AM
Myojin of Seeing Winds? Mulldrifter?

godryk
12-24-2007, 08:38 AM
I'm really thinking about Eternal Witness, great against control it helps us to get cards put in the graveyard to find Food Chain (e.g. Mulldrifter) as well as cards put in the graveyard with Intuition, allows to Intuition for one card and get rid of opponent's counters just as well as Mesmeric Fiend. Eternal Witness can be considered a disruption piece against certain decks.

Oros, the Avenger
12-24-2007, 09:38 AM
What Protection suit would you try with a 5c-manabase? The only real change to the 2c-mana base is Thoughtseize. Or would you pick others?

Willoe
12-24-2007, 09:45 AM
we can use protection with creatures. Unless the opponent zaps it, it works like a 2cc thoughtseize. As I mentioned before, Gaddock Teeg, Glowrider, Meddling Mage, backed up by FoW and Misdirection makes it out for a great protection suit. 4 FoWs or Misdirections, and a singleton of gaddock, glow, mage, and 4 mesmeric fiend does thier job okay, according to my tests.

Cavius The Great
12-24-2007, 01:50 PM
Have you guys considered Pandemonium as a win condition? It seems like it would work wonders in the deck, with all of the creatures that would be coming into play within one turn. You could also play Mox Diamond and Rite of Flames to cast it after you go off.

Willoe
12-24-2007, 07:05 PM
pretty good, but it requires another, less consistent way of playing. If you could find a creature that did a likely effect, the deck should be based around that. Pandemonium requires academy rector and maybe accursed centaur to have a sac outlet. Since the mana generated with FC only can be used to other creatures, a noncreature spell is indeed very hard to play. Food Chain except for Tutors should be the only noncreature spell in the deck. Protection can be trinisphere and FoW, but nothing more. For a creature that abuses other creatures when they are played, it probably doesn't get any better than keldon battlewagon xD Inner-Flame Acolyte could give it haste, but that is also a soo bad kill. Maga is the best, period. Morningtide can bring us 2 things except for plain tournament staples: big fat evoke creatures with nifty abilities ; or a 9cc dude with haste. Then we can have a grozoth toolbox deck, and we don't need THAT much diggers. Grozoth, myojin, and a playset of the hasty 9cc dudes would be nice. This is just hypothetical, however.

Happy holidays!

rufus
12-26-2007, 10:41 AM
or a 9cc dude with haste.

Actually, strong 9cc draw or tutor creatures could also make grozoth worthwhile.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-27-2007, 01:47 PM
I have to say that all the builds I've seen in this thread seem needlessly obtuse, and approach the problems with the deck at entirely the wrong angle.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, I'm going to note that the pressing question you ought to have is not, "What do I do if I resolve a Myojin?" but, "What do I do if I don't resolve a 7-10 mana creature? Heck, what do I do if I don't resolve Food Chain at all?"

This is why Food Chain Elves might, despite the combo aspect itself seeming inferior, be a stronger option in the long run. Regardless, I have been experimenting with a primarily three color build, like thus;

Manabase:

4 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
4 Foothills
2 Forest
2 Volcanic Island

Mana-creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Llanowar Elves

Food Chains:
4 Food Chain

Self-Replacing Creatures
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Raven Familiar
4 Fierce Empath
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Mulldrifter

Big Guns

1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Myojin of Infinite Rage
2 AEthersnipe
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Simic Sky Swallower

The mana base is, while hardly bullet-proof, fairly consistent, and in matchups where resolving Food Chain is less than a given, has allowed me to play out almost all my spells (Night's Reach being the exception) the hard way. Despite only having 16 lands, the deck can cycle through it's cards fairly quickly, so getting there isn't that difficult. Landstill is a nightmarish matchup, since counters and Wrath/Damnation/Deed = bad times. Threshold is less so; it's pretty easy to swamp even the largest Tarmogoyf with hordes of self-replacing creatures, especially when the big guns start coming out. CephBreakfast also seems like an abysmal matchup, since they can combo off about as fast as you can and they have disruption. I could squeeze in Force and maybe Cabal Therapy, but it seems like a haphazard mix of disruption and small creatures would be far too inconsistent against Thresh.

Willoe
12-27-2007, 07:18 PM
If we don't resolve food chain, then what? Every deck has it's issues, I bet you know that. Not to be sarcastic, but if we don't resolve a food chain, then we're "just" screwed. It doesn't mean an autoloss, since there's so many diggers that can be "hardcasted" to dig for FC in the deck. The list you have is a complete different deck, which (sorry to be rude) has nothing to do with the combo version. In our version, it's easy to throw in protection. Although there's no "our" or no "our version", FoW, 3sphere, Chalice, gaddock teeg, thorn of amethyst, mesmeric fiend, petravark (yes! :P ), glowrider or whatever you like. Not all of the mentioned cards can be packed as it would decrease consistensy, but aggro food chain is just some completely different than combo food chain. Your list may be semicombo, but emptying an opponent's hand with a beef is not the same as making them lose a lethal number of life. Luckily, Iname, Spirit of the Night, even grozoth toolbox or just swarm can also be used. It's right, every card played is a card but think about well all combo decks around. It's rare that the player have an option to bait counter some cards. True, this deck is not as good as Spanish Inquisition, Belcher or TES, but it's capabilities of using 3sphere and the like makes it pretty awesome once it gets going.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-28-2007, 12:35 AM
If we don't resolve food chain, then what? Every deck has it's issues, I bet you know that.

And every good deck designer focuses attention on fixing gaping, massive holes in it's gameplan. Reliance on both drawing and resolving Food Chain would be one of those.


Not to be sarcastic, but if we don't resolve a food chain, then we're "just" screwed.

Gosh. It couldn't be that that's a problem worth fixing.


It doesn't mean an autoloss, since there's so many diggers that can be "hardcasted" to dig for FC in the deck. The list you have is a complete different deck, which (sorry to be rude)

If you had not thrown in constant reminders that you're not trying to be rude or sarcastic, I would not have raised an eyebrow at this post. As it is, I'm going to make the assumption that you're constantly drawing attention to the idea that you might be being rude or insulting because you wish to be so, and that this is your passive aggressive method of attacking someone who has suggested that your metaphorical baby might need allegorical braces.


has nothing to do with the combo version.

The title of this thread is, "Food Chain- Evoke Abuse". In that light, you may wish to revise this comment.


In our version, it's easy to throw in protection. Although there's no "our" or no "our version", FoW, 3sphere, Chalice, gaddock teeg, thorn of amethyst, mesmeric fiend, petravark (yes! :P ), glowrider or whatever you like.

I believe I expressed my own opinion on the consistency issues and value of these additions to a deck attempting to abuse Evoke. As such, I'm not really sure where you're going or why you're not on the same page here.


Not all of the mentioned cards can be packed as it would decrease consistensy, but aggro food chain is just some completely different than combo food chain. Your list may be semicombo, but emptying an opponent's hand with a beef is not the same as making them lose a lethal number of life.

Please don't play dumb. Pandemonium, to use a recent example, included as a kill would be a completely different kill mechanism as well. However, as you did not bring this up a few posts ago, I'm going to assume that you're capable of distinguishing the defining traits of a deck, what makes it work and what's merely trimming, even if only when it suits your rhetorical purposes. The deck is defined by the abuse of Food Chain, with Mulldrifter being the latest new tool for such a combo. The actual kill is a matter of utility, not principle. The question ought to be what works. Is it better to devote more slots to a combo that requires more mana to pull off, and involves less cards that can be hardcast, or fewer cards to a kill condition that is slightly less immediate but much more pragmatic? I'm going to tell you quite honestly that, having played Food Chain decks quite a bit, I have difficulty thinking of times I've lost after resolving a turn 2-3 Myojin of Night's Reach. Holding out for the ultimate cool combo- for your twelve mana (!!!!!) "mana machine" combo- seems dangerous and delusional.


True, this deck is not as good as Spanish Inquisition, Belcher or TES, but it's capabilities of using 3sphere and the like makes it pretty awesome once it gets going.

Here's a question; If you think the deck is worse than existing decks, why don't you either abandon it or try to improve it? What do you imagine is gained by maintaining a decklist that you yourself consider weak?

Willoe
12-28-2007, 06:32 AM
As I'm pretty new to this, I don't know how to quote you, sorry..
All I have to say, that your suggestions/help/assistance were quite helping, as it really showed that "aggro" versions of the deck also can be done. Yeah, I know that since the beginning of the thred (Evoke Abuse) the evoke part has been smaller, sorry for that if I typed the title wrong...

And the thing about being rude... :) this was just an excusement as I didn't really knew how to say it otherwise. If this is turning somewhere against being rude or not being rude instead of a deck development thread, I'm sorry.

Playing dumb? Since everyone can read this posts (I suppose), this was more likely to make it clear that the two decks has a little to do with each other. The only thing that is the same is mulldrifter, some tutors and food chain itself.

Abandon the deck? Hell no dude. As I'm not trying to make a DTB or likewise, it's clear that the deck can't get that good. I'm pretty sure the other guys who have made their own food chain also know that. And I'm not considering it weak, I'm just thinking "realistic" in that point. This isn't a casual deck, just a lower tier than the others IMO. Since deck developers from the entire planet has already built some extreme tournament worthy decks, it's hard to keep up with them by making a combo deck that uses an enchantment with 3cc and a very awkward curve, and a slow kill. (With slow, I mean of course turn 2-4) Compare Aluren and this deck. Aluren might be more consistent, but we are way faster. Like Aluren, this deck is SCS, and that is it's weakness, among others of course.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-28-2007, 12:21 PM
It's possible, especially as I know English is not your first language, that I misread the tone and intent of your last post. If so, apologies.

While realism is very good, and much better to have than to be one of the many deck designers that thinks their creation is flawless, I do think in such a light the next step is to try a different list of the same concept, and again, until all options have been exhausted in trying to make it work or the idea itself simply becomes clearly untenable.

The reason I don't personally like the Aluren-esque builds is that Aluren requires much smaller chains to win. If they have a Cavern Harpy and a Raven Familiar they win. In contrast, Food Chain needs to cycle through a number of creatures to generate enough mana (and this is in my version which is using cheaper fatties). It's been my experience that drawing disruption cards when you need to be comboing off kills this far too often, which is why I'm not currently running even a single Force, Therapy or Fiend. This makes the matchup much worse against combo-control, and mediocre against combo, but the mana consistency makes it far easier to simply play out numerous small but self-replacing threats against Landstill and Threshold.

rodgon666
12-28-2007, 05:04 PM
I'm not trying to make a DTB or likewise, it's clear that the deck can't get that good. I'm pretty sure the other guys who have made their own food chain also know that.

mmmm....

going on this... im guessing your just developing your build in order to be something slightly higher than just casual play. if you dont expect the deck to do good in the format. you being the developer of the deck, then why do you expect other people to play it?

i see the reason for this to be developed by all the people gathered here is to make the deck into a tournament worthy deck, not any other reason.

im also trying to be real here, not trying to be rude to anyone.

simple fact is. the concept of the deck is good, yet if its too slow then find a way to make it faster... if its too reliant on getting your food chain then make it more resilient. and thats it.. really. y is there even an argument...

i thought this was the logical approach to any deck built?

or isnt it?

Willoe
12-28-2007, 06:46 PM
every deck starts at the bottom, you got to remember that! If Cavius the great to take an example with his paul wall aggro deck was trying to make a really, really good deck, then I would be shocked. (And to cavius, not to blame your deck for being bad, it's pretty good in fact, there's just other builds who are slightly better).

And is higher than casual play not tournament play or am I missing something? Seriously, admit that you cannot build a deck as good as thresh. I was just trying out the possibilites with the food chain. As I got no money at all right now, there's fortunately some other people who can do the hard "work" for me. Oros has shown up in a very small tournament, but has managed to win it anyway with combo food chain. I think that was great and it made me look forward and thinking about how good the deck can be. And right now, as I'm in a depression because of my sucky christmas presents, I'm not looking forward to anything very special other than placing good in small tournaments. When netdecking, no people you know know your deck, so that's a HUGE advantage when playing against with it IMO. If it can top8 in a +33 people tournament, which seems to be the proof of being a "pretty good but not THAT awesome" deck, I would be pleased. That's what I'm hoping for the deck. All I want for morningtide is good evoke creatures. I'm not caring about all the rest, but evoke creatures can really make short chains and make the deck a lot better.

-Peter's signing off after a huge party at my place, see you guys :)

Cavius The Great
12-29-2007, 12:27 PM
I agree with Willoe. What's the point of posting in a thread lacking any contructive comments? That just agitates the people posting on the thread, who are trying to make the deck better.

bruno_tiete
01-11-2008, 10:52 AM
Have you guys seen this??

Slithermuse 2UU
Creature - Elemental
When Slithermuse leaves play, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
Evoke 2U
#50/150 3/3


(source is the same as always)


I guess it could be used here and in a lot of other combo decks in Legacy.

rufus
01-11-2008, 12:00 PM
Have you guys seen this??

Slithermuse 2UU
Creature - Elemental
When Slithermuse leaves play, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
Evoke 2U
#50/150 3/3


Wow, that's beastly.

Willoe
01-11-2008, 03:09 PM
OMG!! This might very well could be what Oros, I and probably som others have been looking for! I'll test it.

Arne
01-11-2008, 04:21 PM
Yeah, I think Slithermuse could be worth playing... But I also think that it's quite a situational card... I mean, it's really bad to draw into this card when you're opponent only had a card or two in his hand...

But only time will show, test it and we'll see :D

Cavius The Great
01-11-2008, 04:44 PM
Have you guys seen this??

Slithermuse 2UU
Creature - Elemental
When Slithermuse leaves play, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
Evoke 2U
#50/150 3/3


(source is the same as always)


I guess it could be used here and in a lot of other combo decks in Legacy.

Wow, they reprinted Windfall.

xycsoscyx
01-11-2008, 07:12 PM
No, they didn't, they really didn't (since Windfall is a variable Wheel, this doesn't make you discard and doesn't affect your opponent at all). Actually, there is a card that does exactly this, but I can't remember the name offhand. It does seem like it could be (situationally) good in the deck, and could offer some more (much needed) card drawing. The main thing is testing; in most games, will it really be more useful than true card drawing?

Illissius
01-12-2008, 12:07 AM
Balance of Power
:3::u::u:
Sorcery
If target opponent has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
8ED-R,P3K-R,P1-R

Oros, the Avenger
01-12-2008, 02:57 AM
I will test the Muse ASAP. But right know I'm doing tests for CaNG with the deck, because willoe doesnt have much time. Whatever, I dont know wether I should love the Muse or hate. At the beginning of the combo, we probably have less cards in hand than LS, every other MU normally doesnt have sooo many cards in hand, against VG the Muse is useless. When we draw it in the middle or the end of the combo, we got tons of cards in hand, because of the Mulldrifter and the myojin draw. Like I already said, I will test the card, but I cant think of anything it could replace.

Willoe
01-12-2008, 04:59 AM
A fourof in the deck isn't necessary IMO, how about replacing 1 moyjin, and 2 or maybe only 1 court hussar? Would this lower consistensy or make it better?

Oros, the Avenger
01-12-2008, 06:49 AM
Like I told you, I'm going to test it right after the testings for CaNG or when Morningtide is officially released, whatever comes first. I think 1 or 2 Court Hussar wouldnt be a problem, maybe -1 myojin, -1 Hussar?

georgjorge
01-20-2008, 04:41 PM
So technically, my build of the Food Chain deck doesn't fit since it...actually doesn't use Evoke creatures ! However, the basic concept is very similar, so I'll share it.

In contrast to the other builds I see here, though, mine doesn't win by building up lots of mana, but rather by "cycling" through the deck, with the creatures replacing themselves. It's not as spectacular as Myojins or similar power creatures, but it is amazingly consistent for what it does. The concept is to get down a Chain, dig through your deck, and finally play a...Storm Entity. This usually happens on turn three. Note that it doesn't have to be large enough to kill in one turn if you have played your Therapies before to ensure no removal or game-winning spell is in your opponents hand. While the build IS of course dependent on getting a Food Chain down, I think it has the necessary tools to combat counterspells better than most builds here, as it can slow-play and use the blue cantrips to get Therapies and creatures to dig further.

So, here it is...

4 Tropical Island
4 Birds of Paradise
8 blue Fetches
3 green Fetches
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Underground Sea

The deck needs blue more than green, to start digging as soon as possible. But first turn green for Birds shouldn't be a problem either. They DO allow second turn kills, though I wouldn't recommend it unless you have the god hand. They are great, of course, for being able to kickstart the Chain the turn you play it. I used to play Elves of Deep Shadow as well, but replaced them with Tombs for testing...

4 Food Chain
1 Aluren

In my build, Aluren does nearly the same thing as Food Chain, i.e. play "free" creatures. This helps, since even with the digging, getting the Chain consistently on turn three is not easy. I might play a second Aluren if it doesn't prove to be too expensive to get down turn three constantly.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

The best digging for one mana right now.

4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Raven Familiar
3 Cloud of Faeries

The "cycling". Basically, Wall and Oracle can dig before Chain comes down as well, while Familiar and Recruiter are usually only played after (digging with Raven is kinda clunky, but needed against hardcore control decks). The idea is to chain creatures together until you have collected enough spells for a big Storm Entity. It doesn't look like the chain would go on for long, but you have to factor the Brainstorms and Ponders in, which is what the Clouds are for. Brainstorm/Ponder + Recruiter/Raven gives a nice boost, of course, and gets you the needed creatures. Hell, Recruiter alone already gives +5/+5 !

2 Storm Entity

The kill. Two is enough since Recruiters can fetch them. As I said before, a 11/11 attacking on turn three is enough if you have already Therapied them. Two 11/11 should be enough even without Therapy most of the time.

4 Cabal Therapy

OMG is this card good here...since if the game goes beyond turn three, you usually don't need all the Chain mana, so you can just drop the Walls, Oracles, and Ravens you have to use with Therapy. One Therapy is sometimes enough to get rid of all relevant disruption, and more than two is never needed.


As to Slithermuse, that's going to be tested, but I dare say that while it might be good, it probably isn't going to be broken. I also cried for joy when I saw Reveillark on the Morningtide spoiler...but alas, that stupid Chain removes from game. THAT might have been broken otherwise.

Why no Mulldrifter ? I don't need more than seven of those "power cyclers" (drawing more than one or drawing selectively), and Recruiter/Raven are just better. I realized this when I noticed that Recruiter always got the Ravens, not the Drifters. As to digging before Chain is down, three mana is a lot for those kind of decks since I usually also want to cast Therapies, Brainstorms, and Ponder. The extra mana is never needed in this deck, since the Entities can always be cast at the end of the chain, and the other creatures always can be cast off the one extra mana you get from each creature. Mulldrifter also doesn't do anything with Food Chain #5 (Aluren), but that's not the main reason they are missing.

Why no Nantuko Cultivator ? Because without Mulldrifter, the deck usually doesn't have many dead cards (lands) in hand while going off.


As for the sideboard, nothing is carved in stone yet, but the following cards are probably needed:

Xantid Swarm - Four of them. Can even be sacced to Therapy if you need to go off this turn, and kickstarts Chain.

Wipe Away - Better than Grip because of those Meddling Mages. You also have Therapy to get it from the hand.

Pernicious Deed - For when there are more than one troubling permanents on the board, for example Needle + Mage, Balance + Mage, Needle + Chalice...

Basic Island and Forest - The maindeck won't survive a Blood Moon.

Alternate Win Condition - Brain Freeze might do the trick, though it slows you down a bit since it can't be cast off Chain mana.

Thoughtseize - for the combo matchup.

Alternatively, there's of course also the beatdown transformation, with the obligatory four Goyfs, and probably Werebears or Negators as well. But I don't think it's the way to go here.



As always, comments and suggestions are very welcome !

Maveric78f
01-21-2008, 07:26 AM
Very interesting. I think that both decks should merge into something better. Cabal Therapy is certainly one of the best control cards for the deck.

The problem with storm entity's kill is :
- it can be blocked by creatures with red protection (WW, FS)
- " " " " " " " regeneration (Lynx, Boas, ...)
- " " " chumpblocked by creatures (EtW tokens, gobs, elves, hibernatus sliver)
- it can be killed by a topdeck

Then I don't like the cantrips in the deck as they are very bad topdecks during the combo. Imperial recruiter has been proved to be bad too, because it's awful precombo and it does not mean gg during combo. Actually shuffling is bad during combo. The deck can play FoW and I don't see any reason not to do it.

// Lands 19
4 Gemstone Mine
3 [U] Tropical Island
1 [5E] Forest
1 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [B] Island
1 [U] Underground Sea
1 [U] Bayou

// Creatures 24
4 [LOR] Mulldrifter
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
4 [DIS] Court Hussar
3 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds
4 [DIS] Coiling Oracle
4 Cloud of Faeries
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals

// Spells 18
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 Cabal Therapy
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm

Willoe
01-22-2008, 06:48 AM
shuffling isn't bad at all IMO. Imperial Recruiter can chain if needed to generate mana to a myojin of seeing winds. And it can hold back some dudes while you're digging for food chain. Recruiter for recruiter for recruiter for recruiter is often situational, but it has given me some games.

Seriously, Mulldrifter is the MVP of the deck, because simple "cycling" effects are too random too depend on. I agree that Raven is somewhat awesome.

How do you like Idyllic Tutor? Gaining real card qualitity instead of waiting a turn is pretty good, no? Of course, Enlightenend Tutor can be cast at turn 1 with i.e. gemstone mine, a turn 2 food chain, pitching one vine dryad to another, gain mana, food chaining through entire deck for 25 mana, cast maga first for 20 damage and then storm entity for a backup plan.

Entity and Maga are the only creature cards in the deck that don't give you any card quality/advantage (except for vine dryad in my build). Also, Maga can be a mini-maga, and then stomping some goyfs as a i.e. 10/10. The thing i previously said about recovering after a nonlthal finish or a fizzle isn't that hard. When you fizzle, you often have a hell lot of vine dryads, and they can protect you in some turns so you get a pretty large chance of topdecking a creature. When you do, you often combo out again.

I would say that my build, which I publish at CaNG today or tomorrow is the optimal build so far. But that's maybe just me, food chain can be an archetype card like life from the loam, and of course the deck can be played in many ways.

Androstanolone
01-28-2008, 05:06 PM
I still don't understand how people are running this kind of deck without Pact of Negation. It's either a completely all-in or a mostly all-in combo deck (depending on the build) that wins in a single turn.

Idyllic tutor appears too slow unless you loaded up on chrome mox and mox diamond, plus some additional lands to support the diamond. A build including these might have some kind of chance, but it takes up a lot of space in a list that's looking tight as it is. Then again, moxen are -1 card advantage while enlightened tutor is also -1 card advantage. So maybe they have a way of balancing each other out; one has the advantage of getting you the card you want at one mana but you typically wait a turn to get it, while the other has the advantage of getting you permanent mana to get the card you want now (but you usually can't cast it this turn anyway).

I'm not a player of the deck so I won't comment too much on detailed card choices involving the combo or the chain. I will, however, say a few things. Mulldrifter is the stone cold nutz with a food chain out. A singleton ingot chewer can product some sick mana. Raven familiar looks like a solid idea. Playing some kind of aluren/FC hybrid is worth exploring, seeing as how they can each have game winning combos by themselves but also have synergy when both are in play.

THEchubbymuffin
01-28-2008, 11:24 PM
ok, so im sorry if this has been answered like 10 times but... for the evoke creatures, do you get the effect before you remove it with food chain?

Willoe
01-29-2008, 07:12 AM
If we could discuss this in the CaNG, it would be fine :-) However:

@Androstanolone: Force of Will is surprisingly, a much better choice. If opponent stifles maga trigger, you can still win with beatdown. You won't be able to do that with PoN. Also, PoN can often, in most situations be too dangerous to cast in response to i.e. a Myojin of the Seeing Winds. The chances of fizzling are there, and if you Pact a myojin that draws into crap anyway, what's the big deal of losing next turn?

More Lands mean more inconsistensy. Acceleration in form of raw card disadvantage is pretty sucky. Chrome pitches an important creature, and mox diamond pitches maybe a the single mana source you have left in hand. Raising to 26 lands or some might not be a good idea, really.

Mana acceleration is, as stated earlier, overkill. You get enough mana to kill the opponent anyway, which is the most important. However, if some acceleration should be needed, Shriekmaw will probably be best to destroy meddling mage and so on.

@THEchubbymuffin: Yes, you get the evoke trigger, this is why they are played :) It goes like this: Play creature, put on the stack, resolve, evoke sacrifice trigger on the stack, comes into play trigger on the stack (or reverse oder), response to sacrifice trigger by removing it from the game.