December 2007 B&R Update

[kabal]

No changes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/announce/dci20071201a) to Legacy for this quarter, do you feel that was the right move?

Goblins isn't nearly putting up the numbers it use to, partial due to the fact that less people are playing the deck all the time. The people that screamed Goblin Lackey and/or Goblin Ringleader should be banned, do you still feel the same way?

What about cards on the ban list; anything that should come off? Or is the current environment so solid, that any change would be drastic?

[TrialByFire]

I think that it is fine because wizards doesn't want to unleash another fuck up on Worlds like the did with GP:C and Flash. Butt look for The next quarter to have some unbannings

Edit: Until I realize that Worlds is next weekend and the new unbanning wouldn't go into effect until Decemeber 20th. What the fuck, why didn't they change anything?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Prismatic
...
Grozoth is banned


Lonely Baritone will not be happy when he sees this ;_;

[So Annoying My Account Is Banned]

Thank god they didn't ban anything. I had just finished my play set of Shahrazads when they banned that card...

=\

honestly, they should probably start taking some cards off. Cards like land tax. I really don't see that warping the format.

Gush,seems the second most likely to come off the list in my opinion. But that might change the format a little too much...

Other then those cards, legacy is really balanced and stable right now.

[Cait_Sith]

Effective December 20, 2007, all new Magic releases will become legal for Constructed play on the day of the product's release (rather than the 20th on the month following the release). The first set affected will be Morningtide, which will become legal for Constructed play on February 1, 2008.

Awesome, amirite?

[Wallace]

Did everyone see this?

Announcement Date: December 1, 2007
Magic Online Effective Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2007
(after the regularly scheduled Wednesday downtime)
DCI Floor Rule Change announcement
Effective December 20, 2007, all new Magic releases will become legal for Constructed play on the day of the product's release (rather than the 20th on the month following the release). The first set affected will be Morningtide, which will become legal for Constructed play on February 1, 2008.

[Illissius]

I don't think anything needs to or should be banned. I like Legacy more right now than I have ever. Some things could possibly come off the list, but I'm perfectly fine with "no changes".

The immediate set legality thing is pretty cool.

[hi-val]

Maaaaan, Prismatic looks like it gets wrecked every time a new tutor is printed, no matter how bad. Come on, Grozoth? Really. Grozoth. Because Dragonstorm and Nullstone Gargoyle are so amazing. What a silly format!

Legacy seems to be in a nice place at the moment. Nothing needed to go; it would have been nice to have some cards come off the list so they can play with us, though.

[Zach Tartell]

Lonely Baritone will not be happy when he sees this ;_;

NOOOOOO!!!

[Silverdragon]

I think that it is fine because wizards doesn't want to unleash another fuck up on Worlds like the did with GP:C and Flash. But look for the next quarter to have some unbannings

Edit: Until I realize that Worlds is next weekend and the new unbanning wouldn't go into effect until Decemeber 20th. What the fuck, why didn't they change anything?

Maybe because everything is fine but maybe because they don't want to make all the results during Worlds obsolete. I mean if they unbanned something now then all the lists at Worlds would still be in a format without the newly unbanned card so right after Worlds Legacy might be completely different and all the good decks of the pros would suddenly be suboptimal.

[Tacosnape]

There's not really any card that's all that scary at the moment. All the scariest decks aren't so because of single cards.


NOOOOOO!!!

Apparently Pedro from Excel Saga posts on our forums now.

[FoolofaTook]

There's not really any card that's all that scary at the moment. All the scariest decks aren't so because of single cards.

I'll agree that there's no killer card out there, but there are a lot of decks that are much scarier because of Goyf and there are a lot more decks splashing white for Swords to Plowshares or running Ghastly Demise than there would be if Goyf was not in play.

On the other hand, having Goyf cost 2 instead of 3 has made Engineered Explosives more valuable as a meta-buster so maybe many evils are being surpressed by the existence of one over-powered card.

[Machinus]

I already discussed what would happen at this update due to the event. Why do you think I didn't write any B/R recommendations since the summer?

[Pinder]

Apparently Pedro from Excel Saga posts on our forums now.

Either that or Episode III era Darth Vader.

[Aggro_zombies]

Apparently Pedro from Excel Saga posts on our forums now.
Oh God, I shat bricks when I read this. Lawlz.

There are still a bunch of stupid cards on the B&R list, but it's not that important. The format is pretty stable right now, so I'm glad they didn't ban anything.

[Kronicler]

Gush,seems the second most likely to come off the list in my opinion. But that might change the format a little too much...

Wait a sec... you are joking, right? I mean Gush is only one of the best cards in VINTAGE right now, and you want it to be playable in Legacy? Holy crap bro, don't even get me started about how insane that would make Threshold / almost every other blue deck. You would pretty much have to play blue to be competitive. Now does that sound like a fun format to you?

Kronicler

[hi-val]

I mean Gush only gets st00pid with Fastbond, otherwise it's just Very Good. I don't want to hijack this into whether Gush should get let out of detention though.

Aggro_zombies is right. Things are pleasantly stable.

[edgewalker]

Wait a sec... you are joking, right? I mean Gush is only one of the best cards in VINTAGE right now, and you want it to be playable in Legacy? Holy crap bro, don't even get me started about how insane that would make Threshold / almost every other blue deck. You would pretty much have to play blue to be competitive. Now does that sound like a fun format to you?

Kronicler

Honestly, Idk if thresh would play Gush, since it is threshold based now, it needs cards to be in the yard. That's really hard to do when you don't have any lands in play. I say no lands, because thresh plays such a low land count, most times you only have 2-3 lands in play.

However, I'm sure some other deck would use it and abuse it, something with Tog perhaps?

[TeenieBopper]

I remember GAT being really good for a while in old 1.5. Sure, it was before a lot of the decks were refined, but I'm willing to bet some of the people on this site would take Gush+Vinelasher Kudzu+Exploration+X and make a highly competative deck. I'd rather not see Gush unbanned, tyvm.

[Nihil Credo]

Has some E been secretly slipped in my wine, or did someone really claim that Threshold might not play a zero mana Inspiration?

[Silverdragon]

Don't forget Stasis! Unbanning Gush would make the format even more boring than unbanning Land Tax XD

[Illissius]

I liked to idly consider unbanning Gush (because I love GAT) back before Tarmogoyf, when Threshold still lost to Goblins; but now, Goyf and Gush in the same deck would just be silly.

[C.P.]

A question: Would Hermit Druid be better than Kor-illusionist Combo?



Apparently Pedro from Excel Saga posts on our forums now.

Does that make mods Ano Hito, Kono Hito, Achino Hito?

[freakish777]

What the fuck, why didn' they change anything?

It ain't broke. Don't fix it.


However, all sets being legal the day they release is basically Wizards saying: "Hey d00ds, now you either have to attend the pre-release (and pre-releases are totally sweet, cause you pay us extra money, right?), buy a shit-ton of packs/boxes the day of, or have a spoiler before the pre-release so you can accurately test (but those are bad because they ruin people's fun at the pre-release, totally not sweet!)"

Personally, I think it should be interesting, but it could also make things really chaotic as well.

[Silverdragon]

I think anyone who wants to make money playing Magic (aka the pros) should already be looking for spoiled cards whenever a new set comes out. As we all surely know information is key and the sooner you get to test new cards the better prepared you are and so you are more likely to win a tournament.
This means that for all the serious pros nothing changes at all.
Only the casual players who don't want to spoil themselves and/or aquire the necessary cards asap will feel the change as they'll now get beaten even more at tournaments before the 20th of the month. However I'd guess that being a casual gamer and all they didn't have high hopes of winning anyway, with or without new cards.

For me there's nothing wrong with rewarding people who attend prereleases and release tournaments.

[TeenieBopper]

Wizards can go suck a dick. There's no fucking way I'm going to pay double the retail value of the product to play in the prere sealed, and 1.5 times retail to play in prere drafts.

[Di]

Wizards can go suck a dick. There's no fucking way I'm going to pay double the retail value of the product to play in the prere sealed, and 1.5 times retail to play in prere drafts.

..where is this coming from?

[kirdape3]

As far as a money-making scheme for WotC, this one is second only to Magic Online for sheer awesomeness. People will want to have all of their goodies immediately (rather than wait for the prices to stabilize), and therefore a ton of boxes will be cracked instantly.

[Bovinious]

As far as a money-making scheme for WotC, this one is second only to Magic Online for sheer awesomeness. People will want to have all of their goodies immediately (rather than wait for the prices to stabilize), and therefore a ton of boxes will be cracked instantly.

Yea fuck Magic Online, I spent like 5 days trying to play Standard (sucky format just BTW) on MTGO, then I realized I spent like 100$ and all I had to show for it was some virtual cards, a subpar rating, and frustration, so I cut my losses and stopped playing. Seriously, MTGO sucks, I cant believe so many people pay money for VIRTUAL cards, such a moneymaking scam IMO.

[TeenieBopper]

..where is this coming from?

Basically, with the change, if one wants to compete to the best of their ability when a new set becomes legal, they're going to have to pay inflated prices, either in the primary or secondary markets. I'd either have to pay a shit ton to be able to get new set staples from the prerelease (or release day), or buy playsets at an inflated price on Ebay right after the prerelease.

[Anusien]

Or optionally you can wait three weeks like you would have before and slowly collect cards. This is better for smart traders since there's a higher price spike on playables.

[Tacosnape]

Honestly, Idk if thresh would play Gush, since it is threshold based now, it needs cards to be in the yard. That's really hard to do when you don't have any lands in play. I say no lands, because thresh plays such a low land count, most times you only have 2-3 lands in play.


The thing about Gush is, its alternate cost has amazing synergy with this bit of tech called a land drop. Competent Threshold players will realize they can make one on every turn if a land is in their hand, thereby making the drawback merely temporary.

[DeathwingZERO]

Wizards could honestly give a shit less if the cards are inflated initially or not. In fact, it only makes it harder on them if it is, because then their print runs have to be fixed, like they just had to do with Lorwyn.

They made it that the sets are legal asap for 2 reasons:

1- Sets aren't coming out on the 4-5th of every month like they used to, and that confused people

2- Most players that were casual/FNM didn't know about the "20th of the month" rule, and were usually constantly asking stores.

I was just at a friends shop that got the memo about it, because Wizards sent out a questionnaire to stores about a month back asking if their regular players were asking when set x becomes legal. This is the results of that poll, which doesn't surprise me at all. It's much simpler on the average player, who gets the cards from the prereleases or packs they crack on the release days, and want to play FNM immediately with them.

[TeenieBopper]

Or optionally you can wait three weeks like you would have before and slowly collect cards. This is better for smart traders since there's a higher price spike on playables.

Well no shit. That wasn't my point. My point was that if I'm playing G/b aggro control (let's assume it's good in T2. I really have no idea) and it becomes really, really good with Thoughtseize, I now have to buy lots and lots of product in order to get my playset for the day the card becomes legal, or I"m going to have to pay out the ass on the secondary market.

[Lego]

Edit: Until I realize that Worlds is next weekend and the new unbanning wouldn't go into effect until Decemeber 1st. What the fuck, why didn' they change anything?

It's already December 2nd.... I'm confused?


Gush,seems the second most likely to come off the list in my opinion. But that might change the format a little too much...

For srs, don't be dumb. GAT was dominant, and would be again in an instant. And Threshold would play this card in a second.



Effective December 20, 2007, all new Magic releases will become legal for Constructed play on the day of the product's release (rather than the 20th on the month following the release). The first set affected will be Morningtide, which will become legal for Constructed play on February 1, 2008.
Awesome, amirite?

No, not awesome. This is only awesome for casual players who just want to play the cards they have. For the rest of us, like TeenieBopper said, this means we need to figure out what is good before the set even comes out, and either go to the pre-release or buy mad product the day of release. I agree that Wizards did this to encourage people to attend the pre-release, and to encourage the purchase of product immediately after release.


Maaaaan, Prismatic looks like it gets wrecked every time a new tutor is printed, no matter how bad. Come on, Grozoth? Really. Grozoth. Because Dragonstorm and Nullstone Gargoyle are so amazing. What a silly format!

When Transmute was first spoiled, Wizards told us that they would be keeping an eye on the mechanic in Prismatic. Obviously they've kept an eye on it, and decided that it's overpowered. I think Grozoth is the Tree of Tales/Ancient Den of this phenomenon. People don't necessarily play it, but it gets lumped in with all the other bans, because they're taking care of the Transmute mechanic. No sense half-assing it and regretting it later.


Honestly, Idk if thresh would play Gush, since it is threshold based now, it needs cards to be in the yard. That's really hard to do when you don't have any lands in play. I say no lands, because thresh plays such a low land count, most times you only have 2-3 lands in play.

However, I'm sure some other deck would use it and abuse it, something with Tog perhaps?

First, Threshold decks are slowly moving away from Threshold creatures. As is, a lot of them play just Nimble Mongoose as their Threshold creature, and I've seen some getting rid of even him. Second, Thresh has such a low-land count because it has such a low average CMC. Picking up two out of three lands simply means that on your following turn, you'll have two lands instead of three. That's hardly a huge setback in your average Thresh deck. I think it'd easily see play as a two or three of for the Control match, where card advantage is key.

And Thresh isn't even the deck that would abuse it the worst. Just stay away from this card. (Not that I wouldn't absolutely love to play GAT in Legacy.)

[mikekelley]

I can't believe people care so much about getting a bunch of cards for a standard FNM

Anyway, I've never even played constructed on a release day. It's ALWAYS been a draft, so you still have time to get cards for the FNM next week which might be constructed.

[Slay]

Well no shit. That wasn't my point. My point was that if I'm playing G/b aggro control (let's assume it's good in T2. I really have no idea) and it becomes really, really good with Thoughtseize, I now have to buy lots and lots of product in order to get my playset for the day the card becomes legal, or I"m going to have to pay out the ass on the secondary market.

I'm going to add that because everyone is doing the exact same thing as me, prices for money cards after the pre-release will jump about double or triple every time.

It would be kind of like unbanning a $10-$20 T1 Restricted card every few months for use in 1.5.
-Slay

[TrialByFire]

It's already December 2nd.... I'm confused?

Sorry I meant December 20th, as thats when the un/bannings would go into effect, which is AFTER Worlds. So I don''t see that event as a reason to not unban things.


When Transmute was first spoiled, Wizards told us that they would be keeping an eye on the mechanic in Prismatic. Obviously they've kept an eye on it, and decided that it's overpowered. I think Grozoth is the Tree of Tales/Ancient Den of this phenomenon. People don't necessarily play it, but it gets lumped in with all the other bans, because they're taking care of the Transmute mechanic. No sense half-assing it and regretting it later.

Grozoth is not getting banned because of Transmute, its getting banned because of the sheer awesomeness that you can tutor you deck for just by playing it. Everything in your deck that costs 9. I don't know if you play Prismatic, but I do, and that is broken. All the Bringers, Decree of Savagery, Myojin of Life's Web, All the Winds from Prophecy, Dragonstorm, Blazing Archon, Nullstone Gargoyle, Crush of Wurms, Heroes Remembered, Kuro, the list goes on. In short, he's Demonic Tutor for a hand full of broken. My group has had him banned for a while.

[Ewokslayer]

Well no shit. That wasn't my point. My point was that if I'm playing G/b aggro control (let's assume it's good in T2. I really have no idea) and it becomes really, really good with Thoughtseize, I now have to buy lots and lots of product in order to get my playset for the day the card becomes legal, or I"m going to have to pay out the ass on the secondary market.

How is that different from how it works now? Is there a large number of standard events between a set's release and the 20th of the month that I am missing?
Prices don't jump up based on when the set is officially legal. They tend to jump based on when the next PTQ, Regionals, States, GP is.

[TeenieBopper]

How is that different from how it works now? Is there a large number of standard events between a set's release and the 20th of the month that I am missing?

No, there aren't a large number of standard events. But in that two to three week buffer there are lots of sealed tourneys and drafts (both sanctioned and not), not to mention the randomly cracked packs. This increases the size of the pool. Prices also tend to stabilize within that time frame.

Basically, it's this: If I want four copies of New Card X, it's going to be a lot easier to get four copies, at a reasonable price, within the three weeks a set is released and becomes legal, than the two weeks from the pre-release to the release date.

[Ewokslayer]

But if there is no actual need to get the cards in the shorter time frame it doesn't really matter does it?

Having a suboptimal deck for a FNM or too isn't that big a deal.

[freakish777]

Having a suboptimal deck for a FNM or too isn't that big a deal.

No, it isn't. To us. I'm sure it's a big deal to some people though. I think it's brilliant from a sales/marketting perspective and they probably should have done it that way from the beginning. It'll just have the side-effect of inflating some prices in the secondary market immediately following a pre-release.

[Ewokslayer]

No, it isn't. To us. I'm sure it's a big deal to some people though. I think it's brilliant from a sales/marketting perspective and they probably should have done it that way from the beginning. It'll just have the side-effect of inflating some prices in the secondary market immediately following a pre-release.

Those people are stupid. I don't really care what outliers are willing to pay for cards for a sort period in which no real tournaments are occuring.
Now if they moved something like Regionals to the week after a set's release I would have a problem. Getting cards for this regionals was a pain in the ass because how close Lorwyn was to its release date.

[Lego]

Grozoth is not getting banned because of Transmute, its getting banned because of the sheer awesomeness that you can tutor you deck for just by playing it. Everything in your deck that costs 9. I don't know if you play Prismatic, but I do, and that is broken. All the Bringers, Decree of Savagery, Myojin of Life's Web, All the Winds from Prophecy, Dragonstorm, Blazing Archon, Nullstone Gargoyle, Crush of Wurms, Heroes Remembered, Kuro, the list goes on. In short, he's Demonic Tutor for a hand full of broken. My group has had him banned for a while.

Well color me abashed (or some similar statement that means what I wanted that to mean.) Never having played Prismatic, I just assumed. Sorry about that. They did ban every Transmute card though, no?

[DeathwingZERO]

The fact that the release vs play dates are now being the same only means that if your absolutely in desperate need of getting the card, you can pay out the ass like everyone else. Or you can be smart, and buy things at prerelease prices, which are usually as inflated, or wait a month, like most people, and wait for the prices to drop, which is pretty typical.

In the case of the secondary market, this ONLY affects the select few that need to have the cards asap, and they rarely put out large scale tournaments within a week or two of a set's release. And they would normally be fighting inflation prices that are drastic anyways.

[freakish777]

Most people are stupid.

Fixed. That's why I foresee it raising prices.

[TrialByFire]

Well color me abashed (or some similar statement that means what I wanted that to mean.) Never having played Prismatic, I just assumed. Sorry about that. They did ban every Transmute card though, no?

Yea they did ban every Transmute card anyways, I was just nitpicking on the fact that Grozoth was 10 times more stupid than any of the other ones. He would have been banned anyways even without Transmute