[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[emidln]

This archetype is extremely customizable. The basic requirements are blue/black fetchlands, brainstorm, dark ritual, lion's eye diamond, and tendrils of agony. Everything else is basically up in the air. There have been numerous suggested builds with very specific strengths and weaknesses. These builds seem to be the most focused and resilient. I do not list sideboards. Sideboards require careful assessment of what you plan on facing, what your maindeck is weak to, and what you can accept to lose to (and how often). Check the thread for example sideboards.



// Manabase
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland

// Acceleration
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Street Wraith

// Protection
3 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away

// Tutors
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor

// Storm Engines
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Contract

// Win Conditions
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens




// Manabase
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
1 Bayou

// Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Lotus Petal

// Protection
4 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
1 Krosan Grip

// Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Tutors
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Doomsday

// Storm Engines
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Contract
1 Meditate

// Win Conditions
1 Tendrils of Agony




// Manabase
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island

// Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Protection
4 Duress
1 Wipe Away

// Tutors
4 Lim-dul's Vault
4 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor

// Storm Engines
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meditate

// Win Conditions
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

[APriestOfGix]

You deck could be as good as Hulk Flash, and never see play because of the price tag. Nobody is shelling 600 for the playset of Tutors (400 if e-bayed).

It looks quite solid, however i never think it will be anygood based off the fact it's too costly.

It looks solid though, and maybe for MWS tournies?

[emidln]

1

[APriestOfGix]

you'll sell me 5 for $125!!!


Send me PM, done deal...

[Bovinious]

125 a piece you realize, not 5 for 125.

[Cane818]

Who cares what the cards cost. If he has a good deck it will be played.
If you do not want to spend cash, go to a casual tournament.

[Nydaeli]

Considering there are only two Grim Tutors and they're sideboarded, that doesn't seem like a huge obstacle to building the deck.

Burning Wish is the best replacement I can think of, and while it's really good in TES, it's of course less synergistic with Ill-Gotten Gains.

[emidln]

Considering there are only two Grim Tutors and they're sideboarded, that doesn't seem like a huge obstacle to building the deck.

Burning Wish is the best replacement I can think of, and while it's really good in TES, it's of course less synergistic with Ill-Gotten Gains.

Grim Tutor functions more of a Mystical Tutor than an Infernal Tutor in the deck. It usually finds accel or protection. It's rare when you have to use Grim Tutor to loop for the win. It'd probably be acceptable to just try to draw your way out of the situation using Draw4s, or possibly Plunge into Darkness, but there' little to not guarantee you hit something relevant.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

This is fun, because Breathweapon, was written a primer about almost the same deck only you beat him.

I like the deck and am playing it for some time now. I only don't like your Confidants in the main. I shipped them to the SB. I don't play Grim Tutor in the sideboard too. Sure it is nice in control matchups, but in my meta not needed. The best replacement for it, would probably be Infernal Contract or Cruel Bargain.

The difference I have with my list are

-1 Badlands
-1 Swamp
-4 Dark Confidant

+1 Underground Sea
+1 Tendrils of Agony
+1 Ponder
+2 Orim's Chant
+1 Empty the Warrens

All of them are quite logic options. It makes the deck as consistent as possible, without Grim Tutor. I do have a single Grim Tutor, but decided not to play it.
The only strange change is Empty the Warrens, This change is pure for testing reasons, to help the matchup against Counterbalance.

As for reference here is my sideboard:

1 Echoing Truth
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
4 Dark Confidant
2 Abeyance
2 Rebuild
2 Red Elemental Blast

The Empty the Warrens goes to 1, IF I keep 2 in the maindeck, and Red Elemental Blast, might become Draw fours, Abeyance or Grim Tutor.

Greetings,

BB

EDIT: What about calling this deck 10CC, CC stands for Cantrip Combo, your lists play 10 cantrips. And it's a name of a band, like Iggy-Pop

[BreathWeapon]

I think you're throwing your Threshold and Storm match up with 2x vs 4x Orim's Chant, because you never want to Mystical Tutor for Orim's Chant if you can help it, keeping Counterbalance off the table for a turn is the difference between 1-0 and 0-1 and the Combo match up comes down to who has the most Chants/Abeyances between the MD and the SB. Chant is even a Time Walk against aggro, so I can't see any conceivable reason to run less than a set.

Single Burning Wish > Second Ill Gotten Gains, that single Burning Wish does so much it's ridiculous. Even a single Diminishing Returns would be better than the Second Ill Gotten Gains, because it diversifies the deck's storm engines.

Draw 4's vs Dark Confidants vs Mental Note is kind of a toss up, all three cards do the same thing in three different ways. I think Dark Confidant is the worst of the three, because he gives removal a target and takes turns to generate card advantage. Draw 4's are just good at +2 CA for it and a Ritual, but Draw 4's get countered where Mental Notes don't and getting Draw 4's Forced or Dazed is a bitch.

SBing extra Empty the Warrens, other than for Burning Wish, is never worth it. When I was testing Note Tendrils, the best SBing plan I came across was SBing in 4 Abeyance and 4 Dark Confidant for 4 Mental Note and 4 Street Wraith.

I can understand the 2xTendrils configuration if you're using Dark Confidant, but Draw 4's feed off of the number of Tendrils in your deck. Being able to assemble a double Tendrils kill asap is what makes these Tendrils decks so good. I'm almost always aiming for the double Tendrils kill unless I luck sack LED vs aggro or LED + Chant against aggro-control.

[jegger]

I'm playing this deck and I'm surprise for its speed and consistency.

Cantrips help to build a perfect hand before combo and decrease the number of mulligans in comparison to others combo decks.

Bob is my favourite card in mtg, but I don't like to give to opponent an use for his Stp or f/i, so I put them in side for control matchup and discards decks.
Instead I put 2x draw4. Playing usually TES I don't like them, but in this deck they are very good and they give an opportunity to combo when we can't use graveyard for ill-gotten for example.

I also have tried in this deck diminishing returns because I want a win condition that don't use graveyard, but this deck has a more density of lands and cards with higher CC than TES. Then, if we can't use graveyard to win (because there is a crypt/leyline into play and we don't find a bouncer) there are draw4 like alternative way to win. So diminishing returns is rejected.

I don't use wipe away maindeck because usually I play with more decks that use artifact lock like trini or chalice, but if the number of counterbalance decks is higher I shift the truth in sb for wipe away. I think it's a meta choice.

I don't understand if the 2° ill-gotten is useful or not. Often it is a bad draw, but sometimes we can need a chain of ill-gotten to win or the first is discarded.

I'm not a fan of EtW win. I think it's a my weakness, because often I force over the limit the ToA win, but it's a my play style so I cut all red lands from the decks. Now for EtW there are only lotus petal and lion'eye diamond. With more basic lands the deck is more stable to wasteland and tedious cards like magus/blood moon and ghost quarter. Cards like pyroclasm in sb can easily to be replaced from massacre.

Paradoxically I have space in side and I don't know how to fill it.
Against control I don't side over 8 cards, and against lock cards I don't put more than 4-5 bouncers (hurkyl, rebuild, chain, wipe away, echoing).
So usually I have 1-2 slots free. I don't have grim tutor and I don't like them very much. I'm trying stifle :rolleyes: , hydroblast :eek: and extirpate :cool: .

Lastly but not for last I'm playing 3 protections maindeck and 1 it's not orim's chant. It's pact of negation! I see that sometimes I try to win with orim's protection. But opponent counters it and then, when I play ritual, led, ill-gotten,..my opponent take in hand FoW and other stuff so I can't play ritual+infernal tutor+other stuff because opponent can counter them. If I take orim's from grave I need totally in pool 2 white mana (1 before ill-gotten 1 then) and often it's not easily to have them in pool. Perhaps it's not good, perhaps is better in side, but I like pact in 1x, we have mystical tutor that is the glue of the deck.

[emidln]

I found the best idea is to simply wait until you can combo through multiple counters. Usually this involves sculpting a hand with accel, chant, and a tendrils. There really isn't a need to win while you still have life points, so you can take a lot of time setting this up. Using this strategy, it's extremely easy to beat Threshold.

I think you'll find Ill-Gotten Gains is a lot better if you are using Orim's Chant. It's extremely rare that you want to return Chant with Ill-Gotten Gains if you play like I suggested, but the ability to win against discard in the traditional manner of throwing artifacts down and then topdecking a tutor effect ftw is huge.

I'm personally a huge fan of Empty the Warrens, although I tend to use it to apply pressure as I'm setting up for Tendrils rather than going all in with it. The exception is turn one where I've been known to go all in rather aggressively for an ETW of 10 or more.

Due to testing with The_Demon, we removed bob as well for 1 Ponder, 1 Orim's Chant, 2 Grim Tutor. In my metagame there are a lot of maindeck counterbalances, so the Grim Tutors provide extra ways of finding Orim's Chant and Wipe Away.

I honestly don't understand the fascination with cards that don't use the graveyard. They all quite awful and completely unnecessary. In a deck with 10-12 cantrips, 8-14 tutor effects/large card draw spells, empty the warrens, 2-7 time walks^W^Wchant effects, uncounterable maindeck bounce, and multiple tendrils, it's extremely easy to ignore cards like Leyline of the Void, Extirpate Tormod's Crypt, Jotun Grunt, etc, etc. You have so many options:

- Force in an opponent into a counter war with Chant to stop Tutor + Tendrils = Double Tendrils resulting in a single Tendrils being lethal anyway.
- Empty the Warrens using Orim's Chant as a Time Walk to guarantee damage.
- Empty the Warrens backed up by a mini Tendrils.
- Bouncing the graveyard hate and going off.
- Resolving Orim's Chant/Abeyance (stops Extirpate, can stop TCrypt).
- Natural double tendrils.

I don't think you could ever convince me to play cards like Pact of Negation that make more of a control deck relevant. The really huge thing about Chant is that it can't resolve or you win the game. This simply isn't true with Pact (or any countermagic), especially mid game against Thresh/Landstill where they likely have Force + Stifle + Spell Snare and maybe Counterspell. By using Chant, the only cards that are really relevant are unconditional hard counters like Force and Counterspell.

[BreathWeapon]

Diminishing Returns isn't used to circumvent the graveyard, altho' it can be used to do so, it's used because of its speed and the opponent's answers. If UGR Threshold drops Tormod's Crypt, you have to consider whether or not A) you have the time to 2 Tendrils vs Counterbalance B) your opponent has removal for Empty the Warrens C) your opponent has Stifle etc. There are times when Diminishing Returns is the right choice, and the problem is those times aren't apparent until your faced with them and you have a feel for them, so Diminishing Returns looks terrible on paper and plays terrific in practice. Also, you can't tutor for Ill Gotten Gains or Empty the Warrens and cast it in the same sense you can do so with Diminishing Returns. Diminishing Returns is the only card that can win the game, or get you back in the game, all by itself. It single handedly takes you out of top deck mode, which is where Storm combo decks lose games against control.

It's a good card, and it's the kind of card you only miss when you need. I never understood Fetchland Tendrils aversion to it in the first place, having a full set of Tendrils and the lands needed to hard cast the card is great.

Pact of Negation has its place, it either protects the Orim's Chant or it protects 2 Tendrils, so if a deck had a fundamental turn of 2 with either plan, then Pact of Negation would be viable. The problem is that the deck isn't fast enough to exploit Pact of Negation, and the deck is slow enough, or land dense enough, to use Abeyance.

Edit: Cutting Volcanic Island is bad, ETW is one of the deck's outs against a Chalice of the Void, and you have no way to produce red mana when it's set at zero.

[jegger]

I found the best idea is to simply wait until you can combo through multiple counters. Usually this involves sculpting a hand with accel, chant, and a tendrils. There really isn't a need to win while you still have life points, so you can take a lot of time setting this up. Using this strategy, it's extremely easy to beat Threshold.

Uhm, sure if I can I take time before I start the combo, so I can build an optimal hand against opponent's counters, but there is a small critter called tarmogoyf that can do a small pressure and put an high clock... So often I can't wait all this time.


I think you'll find Ill-Gotten Gains is a lot better if you are using Orim's Chant. It's extremely rare that you want to return Chant with Ill-Gotten Gains if you play like I suggested, but the ability to win against discard in the traditional manner of throwing artifacts down and then topdecking a tutor effect ftw is huge.

My english is bad, perhaps I don't succeed to explain what I think. Sorry. :confused:
For example: I play chant, my opponent counter it. Now I can play infernal tutor sacrificing LED and taking ill-gotten, but if I plan this project my opponent takes from grave FoW and other stuff and he can counter my key spell. So sometime for example if I can take orim, IT, cabal ritual from grave with ill-gotten but I haven't enough white mana for double orim. Yeah there are others ways I can take to win in these situations like EtW or infernal contract but you can try to consider those situations that are compromise (like e.e. on the table or I'm at 1 life) and I can only do a mortal ToA FTW.

I'm not a fan of EtW, especially in a more slow combo deck than TES or 2LB.



I honestly don't understand the fascination with cards that don't use the graveyard. They all quite awful and completely unnecessary. In a deck with 10-12 cantrips, 8-14 tutor effects/large card draw spells, empty the warrens, 2-7 time walks^W^Wchant effects, uncounterable maindeck bounce, and multiple tendrils, it's extremely easy to ignore cards like Leyline of the Void, Extirpate Tormod's Crypt, Jotun Grunt, etc, etc.
Yeah, it's right. Often cards like tormod's, leyline aren't the problem. Especially postside when we can side in more bouncers effects. The problem is when these cards are supported by a wall of counters or other lock elements plus a fast clock.
For example against ichorid combo deck, leyline is not a great problem because we can bounce it and then start the combo. The problem is that we often spend a turn to remove leyline (mystical for chain,...) and with another turn my opponent can kill me.


Diminishing Returns isn't used to circumvent the graveyard
You never play diminishing return for this reason. !? Perhaps I play wrong. But when I played TES and my opponent had into play tormod/leyline,.. I considered diminishing like a plan B instead of my sure win with my plan A via ill-gotten.
But here I don't like diminishing return.


Pact of Negation has its place, it either protects the Orim's Chant or it protects 2 Tendrils, so if a deck had a fundamental turn of 2 with either plan, then Pact of Negation would be viable. The problem is that the deck isn't fast enough to exploit Pact of Negation, and the deck is slow enough, or land dense enough, to use Abeyance.
How many is pact of negation played? Is this a surprise card? Yeah and for this reason I can steal a game with it. I don't like abeyance because it requires 2 mana. Especially it requires white mana. Often I don't have mana for both orim and abeyance to start the combo and I can't wait to draw the second white to start. Sometimes the situation is this:
I: orim
he: FoW on orim
I: pact on FoW
he: FoW on orim
Now we have: 4 storm count, I spend 1 mana and 2 cards, my opponent spends 0 mana and 4 cards (all blue and often 1-2 are daze/stifle/snare).
Now often I can play easily the combo. If I play ill-gotten FTW I can take pact, ritual, IT and I play pact on his FoW he returned from grave without the need of other white mana (and if I'm using abeyance instead of orim in total I need 3 white mana! Too much!).


Edit: Cutting Volcanic Island is bad, ETW is one of the deck's outs against a Chalice of the Void, and you have no way to produce red mana when it's set at zero.

Yeah perhaps it's right. I put again into the deck a red mana source.

Ok sorry for my english and for my tedious aromentations. :rolleyes:

[Arsenal]

emidln -

I like your current decklist. Is your "Current List" still performing well or have you reverted back to your "outdated tech"? Ever thought of using Burning Wish in there? You mentioned you were less than satisfied with that second Ill-Gotten Gains.

[emidln]

Also, you can't tutor for Ill Gotten Gains or Empty the Warrens and cast it in the same sense you can do so with Diminishing Returns.

Why not? I routinely win by casting small Empty the Warrens for blockers or minor pressure while I rebuild. You don't need to waste a lot of resources to do it either. A lotus petal, maybe an LED, Dark Rit, and Empty. Boom, 8 turns of safety from a goyf or a 3 turn clock. If they deal with your clock you don't even care because you are just buying time to use tutors and cantrips to setup the Tendrils.


Diminishing Returns isn't used to circumvent the graveyard, altho' it can be used to do so, it's used because of its speed and the opponent's answers. If UGR Threshold drops Tormod's Crypt, you have to consider whether or not A) you have the time to 2 Tendrils vs Counterbalance B) your opponent has removal for Empty the Warrens C) your opponent has Stifle etc. There are times when Diminishing Returns is the right choice, and the problem is those times aren't apparent until your faced with them and you have a feel for them, so Diminishing Returns looks terrible on paper and plays terrific in practice.


Diminishing Returns is the only card that can win the game, or get you back in the game, all by itself. It single handedly takes you out of top deck mode, which is where Storm combo decks lose games against control.

Except that it also takes your opponent out of topdeck mode too. If you're going to play something for this reason, play a Cruel Bargain or a Meditate.



It's a good card, and it's the kind of card you only miss when you need. I never understood Fetchland Tendrils aversion to it in the first place, having a full set of Tendrils and the lands needed to hard cast the card is great.

The aversion is that it doesn't actually offer a solution to ANY of the problems you describe.

About your scenario:

How is Diminishing Returns better than Wipe Away here? I already play Wipe Away, Wipe Away will not magically fill my opponents hand with countermagic, Wipe Away will not crypt me anyway (even a marginal player will just activate crypt in response to Returns and now you are short cards in your deck and still have no threshold), and Wipe Away has infinitely less chance of causing me to automatically to lose to RFGing all my win conditions. Wipe Away is the card I find in this scenario.

Against Counterbalance:

Wipe Away is still infinitely better here. For Diminishing Returns to be good a couple things need to happen. The first is that you need to be able to play out spells in your hand to increase the storm count while still paying for Diminshing Returns. It's unlikely that a living opponent lets you resolve acceleration. The next is that you actually have to resolve Diminishing Returns through your opponent's countermagic that is, with counterbalance on the table, only useful in countering bounce if possible and countering things like Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns. Now, even if you mana to cast and resolve Diminishing Returns, in the event that you manage to have mana left over to cast things after the Returns, you still have to resolve more cards with an opponent having a full grip and still an active counterbalance. What's worse, there's at least a 50% that if they play 4 Stifle, they now have one. So, if you do manage to get lethal storm, and have the mana to play a Tendrils you have a 1 in 2 shot of it being worthless anyway. GG.

Now, you might have noticed that I highlighted Wipe Away everytime I wrote it. If you haven't received the message yet, this card is the answer to all of your problems. It cooks, it cleans, it even pays your mortgage. Just play it and stop playing jank like Diminishing Returns.



Edit: Cutting Volcanic Island is bad, ETW is one of the deck's outs against a Chalice of the Void, and you have no way to produce red mana when it's set at zero.

As an addem here, if you are going to cut one of the two red duals, cut the badlands. The reasoning here is threefold that a good percentage of the time you won't be able to actually cast Dark Ritual and Empty the Warrens since badlands will be both your red and black source. Many times you will want to mystical tutor up either Dark Ritual or Empty the Warrens, and you'll need to do this off a fetchland. Volcanic allows you to do both. The last is that Volcanic Island is fetchable by all of the fetchlands in the deck, not just half of them.


Uhm, sure if I can I take time before I start the combo, so I can build an optimal hand against opponent's counters, but there is a small critter called tarmogoyf that can do a small pressure and put an high clock... So often I can't wait all this time.

Tarmogoyf is, at best, a 3 turn clock. This will give you until turn 6-7 to optimize. If you need more you really need to be playing a different deck. You use your cantrips and tutors to setup until the last possible moment and then you can go off. It's honestly not that hard. It's very similar to the concept used when playing Solidarity. That is, while you can combo out early, there is no incentive to pressure yourself, your opponent is going to do enough of that for the both of you.

I don't know about the rest of you but I board in cheaper bounce, Empty the Warrens, Chants, and Abeyances against Ichorid. The idea here is to put Goblins on the table and chant/abeyance them in response to narcomoeba triggers so you can have time to attack ftw (they can't sac narcomobea and thus will generate 0 tokens). If you have the opportunity to go for Tendrils do it, but the Goblins/Time Walk plan works extremely well, especiall when you have Echoing Truth to bounce zombies.

Edit: My current list switched bobs to the board for 1 Ponder, 1 Orim's Chant, 2 Grim Tutor. This is entirely due to the insane amount of counterbalance threshold being played and the fact that the extra Ponder and 2 Grim Tutors give me a better chance to find Wipe Away.

[Bryant Cook]

Don't cut your one maindeck answer for Diminishing Returns, if anything you cut the 2nd Ill-Gotten Gains. If playing TES has thought me anything its that the 2nd IGG is worthless and Diminishing Returns needed in a combo deck.

[emidln]

Don't cut your one maindeck answer for Diminishing Returns, if anything you cut the 2nd Ill-Gotten Gains. If playing TES has thought me anything its that the 2nd IGG is worthless and Diminishing Returns needed in a combo deck.

The 2nd IGG is only worthless if you have Burning Wish in your deck. The 2nd IGG is hugely important when you need it to get to the lethal storm from a topdecked Infernal Tutor. Unless you play in a metagame with exactly 0 discard spells, cutting the 2nd IGG is not an option, no matter how much I personally loathe the card.

I do this way too much.

Storm Count) Action

1) Play Infernal Tutor, in response, break two LED, finding IGG
2) Play IGG floating BB returning IT, LED, LED
3) Play LED
4) play LED
5) Play IT, in response, break two LED, finding IGG
etc etc

This just happens a lot.

[BreathWeapon]

You can't compare Returns to IGG and ETW, IGG and ETW require other cards to be effective, Returns is effective in and of itself. The disadvantages of Returns are clear, but the disadvantages are irrelevant when the deck is going to lose in top deck mode against Threshold regardless. A Draw4 doesn't get the job done here either, the life loss will end the game before the 4 cards will become relevant.

The second Ill Gotten Gains is superfluous, a lot of the time the deck can just Infernal Tutor -> Ill Gotten Gains -> Empty the Warrens and either win or hold off the opponent or Infernal Tutor -> Ill Gotten Gains -> Diminishing Returns for the win. Diminishing Returns serves the same function as the second Ill Gotten Gains in most instances, and it gives the deck another out in scenarios I'm not certain how to explain to some one who doesn't have experience with the card. There are times when the deck has to push the opponent before Counterbalance hits the board, and you can't always sit around building a double Tendrils hand or waiting for Orim's Chant when Force of Will is in the graveyard.

Wipe Away is not a replacement for Diminishing Returns, you wouldn't cut Empty the Warrens because Wipe Away answers Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony, and it's the same reasoning for why you wouldn't cut Diminishing Returns because Wipe Away answers Tormod's Crypt. Mystical Tutor for Wipe Away costs you a card and a turn, and you can't ignore that. Your argument seems to be that Tendrils should be the control deck, but that's not realistic against the threat of Counterbalance or even Leyline of the Void followed by Goblin Lackey and Wasteland/Rishadan Port.

Storm combo has an extremely complex and intuitive tempo game to play against Threshold based on the presence of Counterbalance, Stifle, Wasteland, Engineered Explosives and Tormod's Crypt, and there are times where you just look at your opponent, pick up a tell and know that you need to force the situation or times where the permanent based hate is denser than the instant based hate and the math favors taking a chance now as opposed to letting your opponent drop Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Trinket Mage + Chalice of the Void, Null Rod or Chalice of the Void etc.

You can't judge the card on paper, it's an intuitive card that's irreplaceable in certain situations, and it's just as functional as the second Ill Gotten Gains, especially against discard. A lot of the time, Storm combo is about weighing the advantages and disadvantages of choosing between double Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns or Orim's Chant either right now or in a turn.

[Benie Bederios]

The problem of Diminishing Returns in this deck is quite clear... you don't play the same ratio's of cardtypes as TES does.

TES plays atleast 24 additional mana sources, 8 direct tutors and 2 winconditions( put the cards in your hand, rather than on top of you graveyard) the rest is quite dead after an Diminishing Returns, especially lands, but luckely this deck plays only 10 lands. But this is already the half of you deck. changes are quite good you draw in a Tutor or win condition and produce enough mana to finish the job.

Now if you look at this deck you play only 16 mana sources, 4 direct tutors and 3 win conditions. After a Diminishing Returns the change is far bigger that you won't draw enough manasources to continue comboing.

I'm sure someone like someone like Iranon could calculate how many manasources, tutors and crap you will draw. The problem is that this deck plays Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm, Ponder and 13/14 lands. Those spells are excellent for setting up a win, but quite dead when you are in your winning turn.

The same is true for Draw Fours, there good for setting up, but quite weak when comboing( except in SI, but then again that deck plays a higher number of manasources.)

The second IGGy is needed in my meta( alot discard) but if you only face counter decks, I can understand that you trim it down to one. But I wouldn't replace it with Diminishing Returns, a Draw Four is a much better choice( or Grim Tutor if you can afford it.) It is a must counter for them and if you get one through, you have a large cardadvantage over them to win the counterwar.

So in short I wouldn't play Returns, because the change is much higher for you to fizzle and having to passed the turn, in this situation, if your opponent played some creature is a huge swing in there favor.

BB

[BreathWeapon]

That's not true, compare Draw 7s in Vintage to Draw 7s in this deck and then look at how much more acceleration this deck has, it should be clear that the card is functional. Whether or not it's less functional than in TES is up for debate, sure TES has Chrome Mox and SSG compared to 4 more land, but this deck also has 4 Tendrils of Agony and 1 Empty the Warrens compared to 1 Tendrils of Agony and 1 Empty the Warrens and Mystical Tutor + Street Wraith is a "full" tutor if you draw into it and Ponder is far from dead on the combo turn. It's also not like you have to win the turn you cast Diminishing Returns, it just has to put you in a better position to win.

I just don't know how you guys are actually approaching this deck, I mean Mystical Tutor -> Diminishing Returns, Lion's Eye Diamond, cycle Street Wraith and then sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond in response is one of your biggest plays.

[jegger]

I do a 5-2 to a 114 tournament last sunday with my personal version.
I like this deck, but it's very difficult to play for 7 turns.

[emidln]

Current List:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor/Draw4/Impulse
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away

Sideboard:
3 Rebuild
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Confidant
1 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Sudden Death

Here's a play situation for the guys who run this deck. Your opponent was on the play in a game 1 situation. They've played Taiga, Mountain, Mox Diamond, and Countryside Crusher. They had no turn 1 play outside of land. On your turn 1 you played Tundra, go. It's their end step approaching your turn 2:

In play (Opponent):
Mox Diamond (tapped)
Taiga (tapped)
Mountain (tapped)
Countryside Crusher (untapped)

In hand (Opponent):
3 unknown cards

In play (You):
Tundra (untapped)

In hand (You):
Flooded Strand
Ill-Gotten Gains
Lion's Eye Diamond
Mystical Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Street Wraith
Volcanic Island

What is your play from here?

[diffy]

What is your play from here?

I am no dedicated combo player but I can see 2 possible plays:
Go for a 18 tokken Empty the Warrens
Pros Possible Chumpblockers in case of evil Countryside Crusher Combo Not Vulnerable To Wasteland Cons Vulnerable to Devastating Dreams
Go for a Tendrils kill on the turn after nextPros Kills for real Cons Vulnerable to a single ld effect

I don't think you need to wait for protection as your opponent will be playing some sort of Aggro Loam (no disruption).

Howto:



Option A:

End of Turn, Mystical Tutor -> Dark Ritual
Draw Dark Ritual
Play Flooded Strand -> Underground Sea
Mystical Tutor [1] -> Dark Ritual
Cycling Street Wraith, Draw Dark Ritual

Ritual, Ritual, LED, IGG [5] in response crack LED for UUU (BUUU)
Return LED, Mystical, Street Wraith
LED, Mystical [7] -> Infernal Tutor (BUU)
Cycling Street Wraith in response crack LED for RRR (BUURRR)
Infernal Tutor -> Empty the Warrens [9]

Option B:

End of Turn, Mystical Tutor -> Infernal Tutor
Draw Infernal Tutor
Play Flooded Strand -> Underground Sea
Infernal Tutor -> LED
Pass Turn

Draw *blank*
Play Volcanic Island
Mystical Tutor [1] -> Dark Ritual
Cycling Street Wraith, Draw Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual, LED, LED [4] -> IGG in response crack LED for UUUBBB
Return Infernal Tutor, LED, LED
LED, LED, Infernal Tutor [7] in response crack LED for UUUBBB (UUUUUBBBBB)
Infernal Tutor -> Infernal Tutor -> ToA [10]

[emidln]

I'd like to note that this was an in-game situation and it is possible to do a guaranteed (well, assuming no countermagic, which is pretty likely given it's RGB aggro loam and they're tapped out) win with Tendrils turn 2. I'll post the solution later.

[Maveric78f]

Mystical tutor for Brainstorm looks strong here, but it adds randomness which is maybe not necessary.

[Belgareth]

I can see a turn 2 tendrils for 18, but I can't quite see the 20 without making some assumptions on a draw spell (If this is counted as allowed then yes I can see a kill).

[Maveric78f]

End of Turn, Mystical Tutor -> Dark Ritual
Draw Dark Ritual
Play Flooded Strand -> Underground Sea
Mystical Tutor [1] -> Dark Ritual
Cycling Street Wraith, Draw Dark Ritual

Ritual, Ritual, LED, IGG [5] in response crack LED for UUU (BUUU)
Return LED, Mystical, Street Wraith
LED + Mystical [7] -> IGG (BUU)
SW in resp crack LED (BBBBUU) -> IGG [8] (BU)
Return SW, Mystical, LED.
LED + Mystical [10] -> Tendrils (B)
SW in resp crack LED (BBBB)
Play Tendrils FTW [11].

[Belgareth]

Ah Ofc :) I forgot it was their end step not the beginning of our turn, that accounts for my difference.

[Maveric78f]

Let's say now that your opponent played a top on its first turn and a tarmogoyf on the second with a tropical island and an underground sea and you know that he knows what you're playing (he's been scrying on the previous round because he had a bye). What would be your strategy?

[BreathWeapon]

Laugh at the opponent for not tapping Islands and sand bag Fetchlands for a turn 2+ kill. As an aside, have people tried out Slithermuse in this deck at all? It looks fairly saucy with 4 Cabal Ritual/Tendrils of Agony.

[Proz0r]

I've been thinking about a somewhat slower combo deck (combo-control). To win, you basically need two mana producers (LED or Cabal Ritual with threshold) and an Infernal Tutor (or an Ill-Gotten Gains with an Infernal Tutor in the graveyard). So I cut the Lotus Petals and Dark Rituals because they are inferior to a LED or a threshed Cabal Ritual. You might be interested in my list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Night's Whisper

4 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Repeal

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Orim's Chant

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Enlightened Tutor
6 open non-wishable

This deck has been extremely consistant for me at comboing turn 4-5 with Orim's Chant backup. I really think it has potential. I hope you are willing to test it and tell me your results.

[kicks_422]

Laugh at the opponent for not tapping Islands and sand bag Fetchlands for a turn 2+ kill. As an aside, have people tried out Slithermuse in this deck at all? It looks fairly saucy with 4 Cabal Ritual/Tendrils of Agony.

It probably won't be good for the same reason that Diminishing Returns isn't... There's too much non-bomb cards that you don't want to draw off of a Draw4/5/6/7 which could make you fizzle. If there's a deck that could maximize Slithermuse, it would be either TES or Belcher, and Slithermuse is questionable even in those decks.

Prozor, your build is interesting, to say the least. Kind of reminds me of the old Gifts Vintage decks where they sometimes outcontrol you before they finish off with a Yawgmoth's Will turn into Tendrils. You can even fit Force of Wills in here with a bit of tweaking. I'd like to fit a 3rd Cabal Ritual in the MD though, since you'd want to see that early and often. You don't have much control elements to actually control the game past Turn 4.

[emidln]

There is no reason at all to play control cards like STP and EE in Legacy Tendrils. You don't need to control the game to win with Chant backup. You can win with chant backup from turn 1 onwards with the lists kcapp001 and I play, as well as varied hate such as multiple meddling mages, counters, and extirpates in the same game. Furthermore, your list assumes that your opponent can't counter the Orim's Chant. This is a flat out falsehood that isn't taken into account here. It's common for my list to get its Chant countered and continue playing spells for a lethal Tendrils. This is primarily the reason you can beat decks like Landstill and Threshold.

[Proz0r]

It is fairly easy to get multiple Chants with my list due to the cantrips, Infernal Tutors and Cunning Wishes. Of course this takes time, and NQG won't give you this time. However, I consider blue-based control like Landstill an easy mathup because they give you the time to find multiple Chants.

The StP and EE help stalling and at the same time they can deal with hate like Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage. I'm absolutely not saying it's the right direction for the deck, but it worked fine for me, so I was just throwing the list out there.

[jegger]

Current List:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor/Draw4/Impulse
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away

Sideboard:
3 Rebuild
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Confidant
1 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Sudden Death


I've played a very similar list to last tournament (23 december). Now I'm playing again TES.

The differences were:
- 1 wipe away +1 echoing truth
- 1 orim's chant +1 extirpate
in SB:
-2 rebuild -1 EtW -2 Abeyance -1 Sudden Death -1 Echoing Truth
+1 orim's chant +1 chain of vapor +2 duress +1 hurkyl's recall +1 island +1 massacre

Before the tournament I thought that Rebuild is strictly better than Hurkyl's Recall, because under Trinisphere Rebuild does the same effect of Hurkyl's Recall and it can add mre storm count if there's in play some LED or Lotus Petal. But I was wrong...I saw that more goblin decks were playing Thorn of Amethyst so now I think that a mix between Rebuild and Hurkyl's Recall it's the right choice.

I use in side an island only because I thought that the metagame was full of Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon and Back to Basics.

In the last build I was playing I use 1 repeal maindeck. It's not horrible: fantastic against chalice and can add +2 to storm combo (useful when we can't use ill-gotten gains).

@BreathWeapon: I've tested Slithermuse in this deck, but I don't like it. I prefer it in 1x in TES instead of a Cruel Bargain. Why? Because in this deck there aren't so many bomb like in TES. I'm seeing also in TES that often when I play Slithermuse then my hand flizzes. In fetchland Tendrils there are more lands, setup spells,...more probability that our hand flizzes.

@Prozor: why not Gifts Ungiven? :eek:
Seriously, do you like 4 Stp 3 e.e. & 4 wish when you start to combo!?
Why don't yu play mystical tutor that can grab the card that you want(stp,orim,...)?

[emidln]

We actually made a change recently to go -2 Rebuild, +2 Serenity in the sb to address decks like Goblins and White Stax that are likely to throw both artifacts and enchantments out that you need to deal with.

[jegger]

why do you prefer Serenity to Hurkyl's Recall?

It's not blu so you must search Tundra instead of Island.
It's not istant so it goes under cards like Rishadan Port & Tangle Wire.
You must wait a turn so if your opponent plays cards like Oblivion Ring is a problem (I presume they side out them against combo...).
If your opponent plays Trinisphere, you can't play in respone Mystical for bouncer; instead you must wait to topdeck the right card (Serenity).

The advantages are: Serenity is not rebbable and can destroy enchantments, but I think that there are more disadvantages than advantages.

Perhaps I forget something.

[emidln]

why do you prefer Serenity to Hurkyl's Recall?

It's not blu so you must search Tundra instead of Island.
It's not istant so it goes under cards like Rishadan Port & Tangle Wire.
You must wait a turn so if your opponent plays cards like Oblivion Ring is a problem (I presume they side out them against combo...).
If your opponent plays Trinisphere, you can't play in respone Mystical for bouncer; instead you must wait to topdeck the right card (Serenity).

The advantages are: Serenity is not rebbable and can destroy enchantments, but I think that there are more disadvantages than advantages.

Perhaps I forget something.

Anytime I board in Serentiy I'm bringing in the 1x Rebuild as well. Serenity is better in that it can deal with decks that present both problem artifacts and enchantments. This was a major stumbling point during testing.

[jegger]

What are the situations where enchantments and artifacts are both tedious?

I imagine a deck like white stax where the only enchantment is ghostly prison that it's not a great problem for us (I presume they don't side in suppression field).
I imagine a deck like goblin where they can side both Pillar and Thorn/chalice but it's hard to find a goblin with all this combo hate.
I imagine a deck that plays both leyline/void and some boring spell like null rod/chalice, but a deck like this...exists?

Yeah sometime a tedious enchantment like Rule of Law or Solitary Confinement can be in play; but in these situations I presume that a chain of vapor or echoing truth can be enough.

Uhm I don't see many situations where both artifacts and enchantments are a problem.

[emidln]

What are the situations where enchantments and artifacts are both tedious?

I imagine a deck like white stax where the only enchantment is ghostly prison that it's not a great problem for us (I presume they don't side in suppression field).
I imagine a deck like goblin where they can side both Pillar and Thorn/chalice but it's hard to find a goblin with all this combo hate.
I imagine a deck that plays both leyline/void and some boring spell like null rod/chalice, but a deck like this...exists?

Yeah sometime a tedious enchantment like Rule of Law or Solitary Confinement can be in play; but in these situations I presume that a chain of vapor or echoing truth can be enough.

Uhm I don't see many situations where both artifacts and enchantments are a problem.

Serenity comes in against Goblins, builds of Survival, Landstill, Angel Stax, Enchantress, and against any deck likely to have enchantments with different names.

[rsaunder]

So, I T8’d the Running Gagg yesterday. Here was my list:

4 LED
4 D rit
4 C Rit
4 Petal
4 Infernal
2 Grim
4 Mystical
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 IGG
2 Tendrils
1 ETW
3 Orim’s Chant
1 Wipe Away
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 island
1 swamp
1 Volcanic
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground
1 Badlands

SB:
1 Sudden Death
4 Bob
2 Echoing Truth
2 Abbeyance
1 Orim’s Chant
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 ETW
2 Serenity (There well be comments about the sideboard later.)

I started out the day greatly confident in my abilities, despite having playtested against thresh a truly inadequate amount. I don’t know if more of that would have made a difference, but I’d appreciate any pointers on the match anyone could give me. In any case, I apologise for the lack of names of opponents and other details of, well, any sort. I’m not the kind to write down every play, in fact, people who do that annoy the crap out of me, so here’s my vague report and anyone who wants their name in here whom I didn’t remember after a sleepless night should let me know, and I’ll be happy to edit it in.

Round 1: TES

Game 1 I had chant superiority. From turn 2 I had a chant available and hit him with it before I went off on like turn 3.

Game 2 I killed myself with I think 3 street wraiths and both grim totors and lost to a tendrils with a storm of like 3. Damn.

Game 3 I misplayed horribly, tapping my white source during my turn. Luckily, he didn’t see the kill and went for a D-Returns instead of killing me. He managed to draw nothing off the returns and I killed him next turn.

Round 2: Dragon Stompy (The dude who ended up I think splitting with Obfuscate) EDIT: John Daily

Game 1 I keep a hand that’s made to combat threshold, sadly he goes first turn chalice. I can’t go off the next turn and then I think he dropped a magus. GG

Game 2: I go turn 1 chant on his upkeep, turn 2 I ETW for 12 and beat. GG.

Game 3: I don’t remember much about this, but he got multiple pieces of hate and beat me down before I could get my mana sources online to deal with the hate. Serenity was lackluster here because of magus, but then again, everything was kinda lackluster…

Round 3: Obfuscate with Virginia Thresh (countertop)

Game 1: After this game, he told me he had seen what I was playing and mulled into a 2nd turn countertop. Damn. In any case, he just had an answer for everything I tried and I ended up burning myself for my final 6 life trying to call a bluffed force. Turns out he had it…

Game 2: I don’t remember too much about this, but I did manage to ETW for like 8 solely to be pyroclasmed. Once again, an answer to everything I did.

Round 4: URABAHN (<=Sp?) With Landstill

Game 1: I go off unprotected but he doesn’t have a force.

Game 2: Turn 2 (I think) I go D. rit, abeyance, win. I’ve never won turn 2 with abeyance protection before.

Round 5: My dad with goblins (MB magus)

Game 1 I go off turn 2.

Game 2 I go off turn 4 or so after bouncing a magus EOT.

Round 6: Kirdape3 with some sort of burn stompy.

Game 1: I just win before he does. He of course took me to low life, but I beat the clock.

Game 2: I chant him during his like 4th or so upkeep, and then go off the next turn. I’m at 4 life, and IGG, he bolts me (which I still won through, but I’m kicking myself for not having seen it and just chained tutors instead) and then I just tendrils him out.

I Tiebreak into T8 screwing out Colasso (<= sp?) Sorry man.

Finals Round 1: F*cking Dragon Stompy again… ^_^

Game 1 I lose to fast lock pieces. He gets a magus and 3-sphere online before I can even get my 1 wipe away.

Game 2 I manage to ETW for 12 again, pounding through his creatures.

Game 3: He mulls to 5. I keep a hand with 1 e. truth. He drops a 3-sphere. I’m planning to EOT bounce it and just go off. But he topdecks a magus and I lose. Damn. I’m still annoyed at the loss, but he was a really nice guy (although I can’t remember his name) and a good player.

All in all I was happy with how the day went, I lost only matches to the people who ended up going 1st/2nd, so I don’t feel horrible about that. But I had mentioned some sideboard thoughts: Echoing truth wasn’t bad all day, but I think Rushing River might have a slot over one of them. I found myself wanting to bounce multiple permanents more than once (especially against dragon stompy, magus+lock piece would have been great) so I think I’ll be replacing the 1 truth to give that plan a go.

Props: To the car for putting half of its riders in the T8.
To my dad for perhaps reviving Mono-R goblins with MB magus.
To Quack for finishing his draft games up fast, even though no one else did.
To everyone I played against for good sportsmanship and general asskickery.
To Bryant for losing to the same Dragon Stompy deck and making me feel better about myself.

Slops: To Bryant, for losing against the same dragon stompy deck… ^_^
The side drafts for taking too damn long
Deck checks, for giving will a game loss
The campus store for charging $4.95 for a slice of f*cking pie
General lack of sleep.
This deck for not being at least proven, so far in northeast tournaments it has been played 2 times and T8'd exactly 2 times ^_^

[b4r0n]

What's the logic behind moving Confidant to the board? Do you bring it in games 2 and 3 after people have sided out removal?

[rsaunder]

What's the logic behind moving Confidant to the board? Do you bring it in games 2 and 3 after people have sided out removal?

Nah, ponder is just a way better slot game 1. It helps a fast goldfish and doesnt do you a button of damage which can really add up against quite a few decks these days. Bob comes in against control for after they side out removal and gives you some card advantage, but he's just not all that necessary MD.

Hey, emidln, what do you think of bob even in the board at the moment, with red thresh getting so popular? I was scared to play him frequently as I took myself into burnable range pretty fast.

[emidln]

I don't board him in against red thresh unless I know their strategy is to board out burn. When I do board him in, I usually take out Street Wraith in most matchups. If there is a sea of cappy's thresh list, you might want to move to either more basics or Tombstalkers in the board. I seem to remember testing Tombstalker and loving it. As far as taking yourself into burnable range, I'd rather draw cards and force them to have more burn rather than waiting for them to draw more burn anyway.

Edit: Congrats on the t8.

[Pulp_Fiction]

emidIn, I have been messing around with the last list you posted for this deck and it is quite consistent, it just isn't as fast as I thought it would be. I really don't like TES and I have been thinking about putting together Michael Bomholt's IGGy list from Legacy Championships (with a few tweaks). Here is a link to his list. He took 14th http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd295a
The selling point for me on this deck is the maindeck Leylines. In your opinion what are the advantages and disadvantages of playing the last list you posted for this tendrils deck over the IGGy list?

[Whit3 Ghost]

emidIn, I have been messing around with the last list you posted for this deck and it is quite consistent, it just isn't as fast as I thought it would be. I really don't like TES and I have been thinking about putting together Michael Bomholt's IGGy list from Legacy Championships (with a few tweaks). Here is a link to his list. He took 14th http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd295a
The selling point for me on this deck is the maindeck Leylines. In your opinion what are the advantages and disadvantages of playing the last list you posted for this tendrils deck over the IGGy list?
I'm not Brandon, but this is what he's going to say:

Leylines suck, they don't actually stop Threshold, because now Thresh just counters your IGG instead of the tutor (they suck even more now, because of Tarmogoyf). They're strictly worse in every non-Ichorid matchup. They're a God-awful topdeck. They suck against agro. There is no convincing reason not to just run more Tutors, Chants and Bounce.

Intuition is a terrible tutor. There's no reason to run that, too. It's win-more. It takes business out of your deck, and gives information to your opponent that will lose you the game. It doesn't find Chant or Bounce against control, and if it does, it's at the cost of 2 other chants or bounce spells. The only plus that it has is that it gets you threshold. Big friggin whoop, you run seven fetchlands and seven cantrips, attaining threshold isn't that hard.

By cutting the chaff contained in Mike's list, you have seven free slots. Seven. That means that you can make the deck infinately more consistant with additional Chants, redunant bounce spells, and increased tutoring power in Grim Tutor or the raw draw power of Draw Fours. You also get to run Street Wraith, which makes your Mysticals into the bastard child of Vamp and Demonic and makes your cantrips even better.

Also, whith the moving of some of your Chants and Bounce out of the board, you free up slots for more difficult matchups such as Stax and Counterbalance.dec.

[emidln]

emidIn, I have been messing around with the last list you posted for this deck and it is quite consistent, it just isn't as fast as I thought it would be. I really don't like TES and I have been thinking about putting together Michael Bomholt's IGGy list from Legacy Championships (with a few tweaks). Here is a link to his list. He took 14th http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd295a
The selling point for me on this deck is the maindeck Leylines. In your opinion what are the advantages and disadvantages of playing the last list you posted for this tendrils deck over the IGGy list?

Advantages of my list include not running cards that 4 for 1 you, runnings cards that do stuff in all matchups, and playing more protection and bounce maindeck (current list has Wipe Away and Rushing River). Disadvantages include, well, we haven't found any but we're open to the possibility that they exist. On a more serious note, there is no way you should ever be casting a 3 mana card that gives your opponent information or Jester's Caps you against control. I have never, ever, wished that my opponent would Cap me with 2U of my own mana. To make it not capping you, you would need to run a lot of Chant effects and 4 IGG. Given that IGG is completely worthless when it is in your hand (it costs a lot of mana, neuters your card quality and any card advantage you happened to accrue and draws your opponent cards that they obviously like since they've played them already (thus forcing you into a dilemma of running 4cc enchantments which are worse than TARPAN when drawn after your initial hand)) except for extremely narrow circumstances (those being Pyrostatic Pillar in play with you low on life and Tormod's Crypt in play with LED on the table or extra Ritual in hand) I don't think I'd really want to run 4. Indeed, I don't want the run the second one, but it's necessary for looping from 0 storm with a topdecked Infernal Tutor (which comes up in actual tournament play so I don't ignore the situation).

If Mike hasn't adopted 3-4 Ponder already (assuming he's played Legacy at all recently) I'd be extremely surprised. Ponder is the best thing to happen to this deck in a long time because it's the exact thing that want to happen turn 1. 7 Brainstrom/Ponder gives you a pretty good chance of either casting your cantrip or casting Mystical Tutor turn 1 to setup a turn 2 kill. This is what you want. Intuition is cruft from a time when we didn't have as good of a cantrip engine as the decks that are trying to beat us.

Also, Leyline of the Void is only actually good against Ichorid since the other decks play Tarmogoyf (thus are happy to work off your own instants, sorceries, fetches, and artifacts). To play Leyline you are required to run 4 IGG and I've already established that I don't want that card. Furthermore, the whole IGG + Leyline "combo" isn't even good against aggro after turn 1 since they've already played a Theat and can continue killing you while you're busy casting a discard spell on yourself. Playing Leyline means filling your deck with 4 mana spells that are highly dependent on other 4 mana spells which will lead to horrible topdecks, more lands in your deck (causing more horrible topdecks), and sitting idly by while watching your opponent beat you with something awful like Goyf Slgh*.

*By awful, I mean you should never, ever lose to Goyf Sligh with storm combo. Doing so is the very definition of awful. I actually like Goyf Sligh in the general meta agaisnt decks that don't have their opponents dead when it is ready to attack with its Kird Ape.

[Iranon]

Leyline and a fullset of IGGs is a tech, not part of an ideal build for an open meta. There's no real reason to run so many clunky and dubious cards when you aren't expecting a buttload of graveyard hate and feel it's worth sacrificing a lot of consistency or resilency (depending on whether you cut cantrips or protection).

Even against decks crippled by Leyline it's of questionable use... most are a lot slower than storm combo and you don't gain much compared to maximising your speed advantage. They shine against the mirror and Ichorid and that's pretty much it.

[emidln]

Leyline and a fullset of IGGs is a tech, not part of an ideal build for an open meta. There's no real reason to run so many clunky and dubious cards when you aren't expecting a buttload of graveyard hate and feel it's worth sacrificing a lot of consistency or resilency (depending on whether you cut cantrips or protection).

Even against decks crippled by Leyline it's of questionable use... most are a lot slower than storm combo and you don't gain much compared to maximising your speed advantage. They shine against the mirror and Ichorid and that's pretty much it.

The last time someone opened up with Leyline against me I killed them turn 2 (Tendrils from hand then Infernal Tutor + LED into Tendrils #2). The last time I saw it in a pseudo-mirror, I beat them to death with Street Wraith. Incidentally, Leyline factors in very slightly in the mirror, since the best way to win the mirror to play an ETW/Street Wraith then use Chants and Abeyances to Time Walk.

Leyline really has no use in the deck. You are significantly faster than Ichorid and they likely don't even get their turn 2 insane therapy turn like they do in vintage due to the decks inconsistency. You don't need it in the mirror (chant effects are not only more effective, but more versatile). You definitely don't need it against Stax or Loam. All it does is protect you from recurring Force of Will. The newsflash in this is that recurring force of will is rarely an issue because Ill-Gotten Gains is rarely cast against decks with Force of Will save for a Chant/Abeyance/Swarm having gone live or if you have a Tendrils (+ mana to play it in pool) in your hand/yard (in which case your IGG is getting back 0cc spell, 0cc spell, tendrils).

[Pulp_Fiction]

Current List:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor/Draw4/Impulse
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away

Sideboard:
3 Rebuild
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Confidant
1 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Sudden Death

[/B]

You said Rushing River went into the main, what comes out for the Rushing River, 1x Orim's Chant? Is this your current list? Also, I know this has been talked about before but isn't Hurkyl's Recall strictly better than Rebuild, because after all Recall costs less especially in the light of Sphere of Resistance and the Thorn. I wouldn't think you would ever cycle it because you sided it in thus it is usually relevant to the match; the only plus I see to Rebuild is it is harder to Chalice for 3 than for 2. Is that why you prefer it? Now I haven't tested this deck against anything, just goldfished but is Pithing Needle good in the side, naming Top or Tormod's Crypt, I would think it would make your Thresh match a lot better as well as Belcher and B/W Confidant or Eva Green (shutting down Shade).

[emidln]

You said Rushing River went into the main, what comes out for the Rushing River, 1x Orim's Chant? Is this your current list? Also, I know this has been talked about before but isn't Hurkyl's Recall strictly better than Rebuild, because after all Recall costs less especially in the light of Sphere of Resistance and the Thorn. I wouldn't think you would ever cycle it because you sided it in thus it is usually relevant to the match; the only plus I see to Rebuild is it is harder to Chalice for 3 than for 2. Is that why you prefer it? Now I haven't tested this deck against anything, just goldfished but is Pithing Needle good in the side, naming Top or Tormod's Crypt, I would think it would make your Thresh match a lot better as well as Belcher and B/W Confidant or Eva Green (shutting down Shade).

I cut ETW from the maindeck. I won more games with Street Wraith than I did with ETW. I never wanted to cast that card. I'm running 3-4 basics (2 Islands, 1-2 Swamp, sometimes an extra Tundra (2 total) or a Plains over the 2nd swamp).

Crypt isn't an issue at all. You can play straight through it with IGG in several ways, bounce it, or combo out without using IGG (really not that hard with infy cantrips and tutors).

Hurky's Recall is worse than Rebuild precisely because Recall costs 2 mana. I already have 2 mana solutions to Stax in Echoing Truth and Serenity. With 3-4 basics and 7 fetches, I don't really feel the need to cater to nonexistent decks that play 8 2spheres. Rebuild costing three means I can bring it into matchups where Counterbalance and Trinket Mage are played as a solution to my opponent overextending with EEs, Crypts, Needles,etc (it's harder to counter with Counterbalance). It can cycle there when it's not needed, where H.Recall sits in my hand maybe generating an extra 2-3 storm when comboing, but likely not (and Rebuild could do the same thing anyway).

Pithing Needle is worse than Serenity. Why would I shut down shade instead of just winning? Belcher is busy dealing with 5-6 chant effects, bounce spells and the fact that I'm going to win the game turn 2. Their out to not losing the matchup is winning the dice roll and then winning turn 1 on the play before chants and tutor/draw into chants come online.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Ok, I have played this deck quite a bit, both goldfished and played against some people for fun and this deck is REALLY resistant to hand destruction due to all the cantrips. It is also a lot faster than I originally thought, after I got used to all the weird interactions I got a consistent turn 2-4 and 1 turn 1 kill out of 30 or so hands. But due to a lack of testing againt UGw Thresh and UW Standstill I can't say that the matchups look very good I can only guess how they would go and I am curious as to how anyone who plays this deck thinks about them. Is that why Empty the Warrens is in SB? With Top and Counterbalance in play Orim's Chant becomes fairly useless. Against this type of deck do you just EOT Wipe Away the Top then next turn Chant them then attempt to combo off? But with Top in play you can't Mystical Tutor for Wipe Away, so are you just forced to topdeck? I am generalizing here but how would you play against a deck with Countertop, Stifle, Force, and Daze in the main?

My other thoughts are on the Grim Tutors. They just seem kind of misplaced because every time I have used them it has taken up my only Dark Ritual to cast it and thrown a wrench into things, with excess mana they can up the storm count and usually when cast you win the next or following turn but there have been situations where I just didn't have enough resources for it to work. I would say for me 50% of the time I won the next or following turns it was cast and 50% of the time I wished it was something else. Would 2x Plunge into Darkness, 2x Flash of Insight (weakest of all I think), Impulse, or Ponder #4 and 1x Empty the Warrens be a good substitute for them?

[Jaiminho]

I've been using Impulse in that slot. It owns. Not having to pay lots of life for digging into 4 cards and getting the best of them plus getting rid of possibly annoying things for the next cantrip is really good.

BTW, the table is clear (no CB) and you cast Orim's Chant. It get's countered by Force of Will removing Stifle. You don't have a second one. You try go off?

[conboy31]

I would factor in how many cards are in their hand, untapped islands, etc. However, given your post I probably would. They would have needed to been 3 deep in protection and the stifle pitch is probably for attempted posturing at the impending 20 life loss.

[emidln]

ETW isn't really for the Thresh and Landstill matchups. The mere threat of ETW is good enough in that matchup because it forces them to board answers that are going to be extremely narrow and otherwise dead. ETW is likely better as a phantom threat than as an actual card at this point because of proper deck construction.

I honestly don't understand how people have such a hard time against CB/Top. It's a combo that is extremely mana intensive, doesn't come online until at least turn 3, and is extremely vulnerable to its opponents not being braindead (i.e. alternating casting costs of spells, playing stuff eot, and responding to top activating since your opponent has limited access to particular casting costs. This is assuming that you don't simply cast Wipe Away. If you were really concerned about CB/top you can even board Gigadrowse (which incidentally shuts down the engine down pretty well) or move into green for KGrip/Trygon Predator (more permanent solutions to CB than Wipe Away). I usually turbo-mystical for Wipe Away in matchups where I know CB is threat. This is going to force my opponent to play a second CB at which point you get to test the top card with a cantrip/mystical and then wipe away away either an open land (if you're using Brainstorm on their end step to penalize them for tapping 2 lands although this is far riskier than the next) or their Top. Alternately here, you can test with Chants/Cantrips until they are forced to break top. When you do that, you can attempt to throw chants/rituals in response. The best solution is to win before CB/Top goes online though, and that is by far the most common situation due to msot CB thresh decks playing exactly 4 hard counters.

Grim Tutor/Draw4s are metagame slots. I'm playing Draw4s at the moment to avoid a great deal of hand disruption. Other stuff I've considered playing in those slots are Ponder #4, Chant #4, Rushing River #1, basic Plains #1 (switching out land #14 (Volcanic Island/Tundra/Swamp) into Flooded Strand #4 obv), and Impulse #s 1-2.

More than likely yes to the question. Without knowing gamestate (my hand, their untaped lands, my board, my graveyard, the turn number, their graveyard, their handsize, what I've seen from their deck in previous games/scouting) I can't say for sure though.

[Jaiminho]

More than likely yes to the question. Without knowing gamestate (my hand, their untaped lands, my board, my graveyard, the turn number, their graveyard, their handsize, what I've seen from their deck in previous games/scouting) I can't say for sure though.

I was talking about a game state like the "default" turn 2 one against aggro-control. Anyway, here's some specification:

Your opponent has 5-6 cards in hand (1-2 cantrips in the grave) with Ux dual(s) in play. You have 2 lands and enough acceleration+storm to combo that turn using IGG once, but you can't fetch for double Tendrils.

[emidln]

I was talking about a game state like the "default" turn 2 one against aggro-control. Anyway, here's some specification:

Your opponent has 5-6 cards in hand (1-2 cantrips in the grave) with Ux dual(s) in play. You have 2 lands and enough acceleration+storm to combo that turn using IGG once, but you can't fetch for double Tendrils.


If I have the Petal to play around Daze, I probably do it. Also, depending on whether or not I suspected it was Thrash (from previous games or watching) I might consider whether or not I could survive a Spell Snare.

[Jaiminho]

If I have the Petal to play around Daze, I probably do it. Also, depending on whether or not I suspected it was Thrash (from previous games or watching) I might consider whether or not I could survive a Spell Snare.

I'd guess that trying to survive a Spell Snare is easier than trying to survive the recurred Force of Will, since you did cast IGG once to get enough storm. In this situation, force on a ritual would very likely crush you.

[J.V.]

I just figured I'd post my results (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8871) from Hadley (5th out of 40). If anyone has any questions on card decisions please feel free to ask.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I just figured I'd post my results (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8871) from Hadley (5th out of 40). If anyone has any questions on card decisions please feel free to ask.
The 4th Chant and Igg number 3 over bounce spells and the fourth Ponder. How did that work out for you?

And grats on the finish!
EDIT- I see that you didn't run Grims, due to price contraints, I'm assuming. Anyway, did the absence of the extra tutors hurt you at all?

[emidln]

I'd guess that trying to survive a Spell Snare is easier than trying to survive the recurred Force of Will, since you did cast IGG once to get enough storm. In this situation, force on a ritual would very likely crush you.

Depending on your hand and whether they broke a fetch, it's entirely possible to win without casting Ill-Gotten Gains. By casting all the cards in your hand + playing a land per turn, it's possible for you to play 7 spells (7 cards in hand at the beginning of the turn + draw per turn) + force of will + tendrils copy itself. The Force of Will + Fetch would put them at 18. This would be ideal.

[scrumdogg]

The 4th Chant and Igg number 3 over bounce spells and the fourth Ponder. How did that work out for you?

And grats on the finish!
EDIT- I see that you didn't run Grims, due to price contraints, I'm assuming. Anyway, did the absence of the extra tutors hurt you at all?

From the perspective of the other side of the table, he was able cast waaaay more Chant/Abeyance effects than any 'black' deck ever should....they slowed me down enough to let him go off before me in 2 games & stopped me from evoking an Awfulsnout for a key combo piece in one game.

[J.V.]

The 4th Chant and Igg number 3 over bounce spells and the fourth Ponder. How did that work out for you?

And grats on the finish!
EDIT- I see that you didn't run Grims, due to price contraints, I'm assuming. Anyway, did the absence of the extra tutors hurt you at all?

The 4th chant was amazing I don't think I lost a game that I saw a chant. As for IGG #3 it was a little overkill and got sided out quite a few times. As for not running Grims I haven't gotten them yet... But honestly I never missed them. I'd probably cut the 3rd IGG for either a 4th ponder, or maybe a singleton draw 4. As for bounce the 1 Wipe Away in the main was plenty since there aren't many decks that run main deck Leyline in legacy and there really aren't that many card s that require bounce. Plus I can grab it with Mystical Tutor. And I devoted 4 Sideboard slots to bounce so Game 2 and 3 where I'd actually see Leyline I was set.

[kicks_422]

I've dabbled in combo every once in a while, and I like how this deck is built. I've been playtesting and owning with it in our play group. :laugh:

However, I have a few questions to ask about the SB (my weakest point as a Magic player)... Here's JanValentine00's SB from the Hadley list:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Pyroblast
3 Abeyance
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Sudden Death

What are the boarding plans for each MU? And what do you take out? It seems that the deck is so tight and streamlined in the MD, so I'm having trouble with that. Thanks. :wink:

[GGoober]

This deck has definitely caught my interest in IGG builds again. I was considering 1 Meditate as part of the 4draw for the deck.

It's only one blue, and this deck is capable of generating blue consistently. The skip turn is trivial if you plan to go off confidently during the turn, as is the case of most 4draws when you spin in for the kill.

Just a thought to consider.

How is the matchup against goblins? I think the issue is the lifeloss, making SW less recyclable, but this deck definitely has a much more resilient and wider stretch for answers than the traditional IGG builds. Good job!

[Cavius The Great]

I've dabbled in combo every once in a while, and I like how this deck is built. I've been playtesting and owning with it in our play group. :laugh:

However, I have a few questions to ask about the SB (my weakest point as a Magic player)... Here's JanValentine00's SB from the Hadley list:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Pyroblast
3 Abeyance
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Sudden Death

What are the boarding plans for each MU? And what do you take out? It seems that the deck is so tight and streamlined in the MD, so I'm having trouble with that. Thanks. :wink:

You usually take out any draw spells sacrificing speed for disruption. At least that's how I generally board when playing combo. But it really depends on the deck. In many cases removing mana acceleration is another option, as well. I also tend to cut four of's down to three of's, down the line, instead of removing a playset of cards all together. But like I said, it really depends on the deck.

[emidln]

You usually take out any draw spells sacrificing speed for disruption. At least that's how I generally board when playing combo. But it really depends on the deck. In many cases removing mana acceleration is another option, as well. I also tend to cut four of's down to three of's, down the line, instead of removing a playset of cards all together. But like I said, it really depends on the deck.

Disregard what I quoted. Don't ever consider boarding out Brainstorm or Ponders 1-3. If you are thinking about it, remind yourself that you don't suck at magic and pick something else. Ill-Gotten Gains and Tendrils of Agony are usually good choices since if you are fighting through hate, you'll gain requisite storm naturally. Swapping out bounce as necessary as well as Orim's Chants and Street Wraiths is pretty common. If you are playing ETW or a 15th land, those are considerations. Never, under any circumstances, board out Dark Ritual or Cabal Ritual sparing a transformational sideboard into Scaled Wurm aggro or something (and then, keep them in because they cast your 7/6 faster). LED is a potential for a cut against decks known to play both Chalice and Leyline, although I usually consider this a last resort and tend to leave in at least 2. Grim Tutors and Draw4s are potential cuts depdending on the matchup.

I dislike Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast in the sideboard because it causes you to bring too much in and lose focus. This is worse than not sideboarding at all and is a common mistake for people unfamiliar with their decks.

[Cavius The Great]

I would never cut Brainstorm or Ponder. I'd maybe cut one of each of mana acceleration making each a 3-of instead of 4. I agree that Brainstorm should stay a 4-of as well as Ponder. I do think that cutting Cabal ritual and dark ritual down to three shouldn't hurt much, since diluting the deck isn't as bad as neutering it all together.

[emidln]

I would never cut Brainstorm or Ponder. I'd maybe cut one of each of mana acceleration making each a 3-of instead of 4. I agree that Brainstorm should stay a 4-of as well as Ponder. I do think that cutting Cabal ritual and dark ritual down to three shouldn't hurt much, since diluting the deck isn't as bad as neutering it all together.

Cutting acceleration in a deck like Fetchland Tendrils isn't the same as doing so in TES or Belcher. You can get by with it in TES because TES plays approximately a million acceleration cards, but Fetchland Tendrils has exactly sixteen -- four of which (Lotus Petal) suck pretty bad when trying to generate enough mana to cast Tendrils of Agony, Infernal Tutor, or Ill-Gotten Gains after a war over Orim's Chant effects. Your Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals are what will allow you to actually win the game in the mana constricted scenarios after a Chant war or cantrip chaining. They allow you to generate mana or storm with Infernal Tutor or Ill-Gotten Gains. Finally, their instant speed allows you to play through Tormod's Crypt as necessary, something that is essential to successfully piloting the deck in a tournament.

[Cavius The Great]

Excuse me for my ignorance. :wink: I was only referring to Nourishing Lich since it's really the only combo deck I play. I also have played SI to a certain extent and cutting rituals (one of each) -3(cabal/dark/culling) and -1 LED for +4 Naturalize against Chalice is another example. I'm not familiar with fetchland tendrils since I have no experience playing the deck.

[Arsenal]

So, without using Grim Tutors in place of Intuition, what seperates this deck from Iggy Pop? I've seen Iggy Pop lists with 4 Chants main/side before, and I've seen Iggy Pop lists tinkering w/ Street Wraith too. The main thing that seperated Iggy Pop with this deck was Grim Tutor and Intuition.

[emidln]

Excuse me for my ignorance. :wink: I was only referring to Nourishing Lich since it's really the only combo deck I play. I also have played SI to a certain extent and cutting rituals (one of each) -3(cabal/dark/culling) and -1 LED for +4 Naturalize against Chalice is another example. I'm not familiar with fetchland tendrils since I have no experience playing the deck.

SI: 24-28 ritual effects (4 Moxen, 4 Petal, 4 Rit, 4 Crit, 4 Culling, 4 LED, 0-4 SSG)
TES: 24-27 ritual effects (4 Moxen, 4 Petal, 4 Rit, 4 SSG, 4 Rite, 4 LED, 0-3 CRit)
Fetchland Tendrils: 16 ritual effects (4 Petal, 4 Rit, 4 CRit, 4 LED)

About the difference:

Fetchland Tendrils plays 0 Intuition, 0 Leyline of the Void, 2-4 Ponder, 4 Street Wraith, 2 Ill-Gotten Gains, 2 Tendrils of Agony, 3-4 Orim's Chant, 14 lands, 0-2 Draw4, 0-2 Grim Tutor

Iggy Pop (Mike's build from Worlds or Smmenen's article) plays 3-4 Intuition, 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Ill-Gotten Gains, 2-4 Tendrils of Agony, 0 Ponder, 0 Street Wraith, 1 Orim's Chant, 16 lands

These differences may seem minor, but they greatly affect the playstyle of the deck. There has been testing done towards fewer Intuition, Street Wraith, Orim's Chant, and even decreased copies of IGG and Tendrils in Iggy Pop, but they were never brought together. This deck originated as an Iggy Pop variant with 4 Grim Tutor replacing all but 1 Intuition and a myriad of basics and bounce spells maindeck, but it evolved as heavy testing and newer cards pushed back the old technology. Due to evolution, Fetchland Tendrils is a highly aggressive deck with a low mana curve focused on playing a card quality game very similar to the way Threshold sculpts its perfect hand. This optimization and trend towards consistency brings a stark contrast when compared to mulling for Leylines and casting the perennial 4 for 1 (Intuition) against control.

New sideboarding techniques with a focus on proper playtesting and sound theory, a more streamlined card quality engine, and the concept of speed with protection all end in Iggy Pop largely evolving into Fetchland Tendrils independent of the originator of the deck. Through all of this the deck gained an ability to ignore graveyard hate, easily play through countermagic, recover from previously crippling permanents, and even managed to get faster in the goldfish against aggro decks. I suppose that if you look at the numbers, the Meandeck list plays 13-14 different cards (excluding the manabase) than the Fetchland Tendrils lists so you can make of that what you will.

[scrumdogg]

Excuse me for my ignorance. :wink: I was only referring to Nourishing Lich since it's really the only combo deck I play. I also have played SI to a certain extent and cutting rituals (one of each) -3(cabal/dark/culling) and -1 LED for +4 Naturalize against Chalice is another example. I'm not familiar with fetchland tendrils since I have no experience playing the deck.


The discussion is on neither Nourishing Lich nor SI, which although combo decks, are different combo decks. You admit not having played this, why are you offering sideboard advice on something you have no experience with? That seems irresponsible. Can someone who has played the deck, especially to success, offer opinions on what goes out to bring what in, match by match? I haven't played the deck either but I have played against it, and the Time Walk/protected comboing effect of leventy billion Chant effects was a major factor in my loss to the deck.

[kicks_422]

The discussion is on neither Nourishing Lich nor SI, which although combo decks, are different combo decks. You admit not having played this, why are you offering sideboard advice on something you have no experience with? That seems irresponsible. Can someone who has played the deck, especially to success, offer opinions on what goes out to bring what in, match by match?

Yep, that was what I wanted as well... :tongue:

BTW, emidln, you mentioned in the Combo vs Countertop thread about a variation of Fetchland Tendrils with Tropical Island and Bayou, and Trygon Predator and Krosan Grip. What did they replace? Is it alright if you post that list? Thanks, I'm doing as much homework as I can on this before I go get the pieces... :smile:

[thefreakaccident]

My team was planning on investing into this deck, and this is the build we were planning on making:

lands//14
1 badlands
1 underground sea
1 tundra
1 swamp
1 island
1 scrubland
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta

creatures//4
4 street wraith

spells//42
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
1 wipe away
3 orim's chant
2 ill-gotten gains
2 tendrils of aaggony
4 brainstorm
4 mystical tutor
4 infernal tutor
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
3 ponder
1 empty the warrens
2 grim tutor

sideboard- Unknown for now


This list is very standard from what I have seen, but I do have some good questions.

1. If we can get grim tutors, then should we run them?

2. what should a general sideboard look like if we expect control and agro?

3. How good is street wraith really?
- I know he negates mystical tutor making it awesome, but sometimes he makes mulligans very tricky, as he can draw you into anything, and if he doesn't draw what you wanted you can get screwed...
- Is he still worth the risk (possible mulligans because he is in op hand).

[Jaiminho]

1. If we can get grim tutors, then should we run them?
My list is almost the same as yours, minus Badlands and Grim Tutors, plus Island and Impulse. I've been testing a lot the Suicide Black (with 3 specters, 11 discards and 4 shades) match up (10x12 pre-sb, so far) and I miss an effect to make up for the small amount of IGGs. Draw4 may fill those slots nicely, but I think it would put me in a very fragile situation, since a Nantuko Shade can create a very quick clock.

Still, there's no one to playtest Landstill and Thresh with me, since all my friends are way lazy to gather up for some real playing. I can't say anything about Grim Tutor on these matches.


3. How good is street wraith really?
- I know he negates mystical tutor making it awesome, but sometimes he makes mulligans very tricky, as he can draw you into anything, and if he doesn't draw what you wanted you can get screwed...
- Is he still worth the risk (possible mulligans because he is in op hand).
It does speed up Mystical Tutor effects by 1 turn, which is crucial for speed. It does not make deciding for mulligan harder. The sensation of it being a completely unknown card goes away with a small bit of goldfishing, when you notice it as a tool. Also, he makes threshold easier to achieve.


EDIT: I didn't notice the lack of Volcanic Island and the extra Flooded Strand... my mana base is the same as shown below by emidln.

[emidln]

My team was planning on investing into this deck, and this is the build we were planning on making:

lands//14
1 badlands
1 underground sea
1 tundra
1 swamp
1 island
1 scrubland
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta

creatures//4
4 street wraith

spells//42
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
1 wipe away
3 orim's chant
2 ill-gotten gains
2 tendrils of aaggony
4 brainstorm
4 mystical tutor
4 infernal tutor
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
3 ponder
1 empty the warrens
2 grim tutor

sideboard- Unknown for now


This list is very standard from what I have seen, but I do have some good questions.

1. If we can get grim tutors, then should we run them?

2. what should a general sideboard look like if we expect control and agro?

3. How good is street wraith really?
- I know he negates mystical tutor making it awesome, but sometimes he makes mulligans very tricky, as he can draw you into anything, and if he doesn't draw what you wanted you can get screwed...
- Is he still worth the risk (possible mulligans because he is in op hand).

Badlands is worse than Volcanic Island. Cut Badlands for Volcanic Island or cut Flooded Strand for Volcanic Island. I was perfectly fine running this config while playing maindeck ETW, but the only other red card that I would personally consider playing right now is Pyroclasm.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

With your list, a general sideboard would be the following:

1 Orim's Chant
1 Abeyance
1 Extirpate
4 Serenity
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Rebuild
4 Dark Confidant

Depending on your metagame, Pyroclasm and Sudden Death immediately become considerations. I keep these cards in a binder for me to make use of in my 75:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Street Wraith
4 Impulse
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Contract
3 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Intuition
2 Meditate
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Grim Tutor
1 Burning Wish
4 Empty the Warrens
2 Brain Freeze
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Bound//Determined
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Disrupt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Trinket Mage
4 Serenity
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Trygon Predator
3 Wipe Away
3 Krosan Grip
2 Sudden Death
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
3 Rushing River
3 Echoing Truth
3 Rebuild
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Damnation
1 Wash Out
3 Pyroclasm
3 Massacre
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pithing Needle

These are basically the only cards you are ever likely to see in my 75. Some of them are outdated tech and others are cards that I simply thought I could possibly use at some point down the line (Wash Out hasn't been in my list in awhile, but I could see a meta where I might potentially want it). You'll notice parts of transformational sideboards if you pay attention as well as things that I play randomly (Scepters) for their surprise value into free wins in game 2. This might help to illustrate to some just how open I think the Fetchland Tendrils archetype is.

[J.V.]

I've dabbled in combo every once in a while, and I like how this deck is built. I've been playtesting and owning with it in our play group. :laugh:

However, I have a few questions to ask about the SB (my weakest point as a Magic player)... Here's JanValentine00's SB from the Hadley list:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Pyroblast
3 Abeyance
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Sudden Death

What are the boarding plans for each MU? And what do you take out? It seems that the deck is so tight and streamlined in the MD, so I'm having trouble with that. Thanks. :wink:

Thresh:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-3 Ponder
-1 Wipe Away
-4 Street Wraith
+3 Dark Confidant
+3 Abeyance
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Echoing Truth

Goblins:
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
-1 Empty the Warrens
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Hurkyl's Recall

Other Storm Combo:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-3 Ponder
+3 Abeyance
+1 Echoing Truth

Loam:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chain of Vapor

Dragonstompy:
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
-2 Orim's Chant
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Empty the Warrens

White Stax:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Street Wraith
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's Recall

Other U based Control:
-4 Street Wraith
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
+3 Pyroblast
+3 Abeyance

Otherwise use your judgement, If you expect leyline board in more bounce, Extirpate... abeyances, etc. etc.

[emidln]

Wow, I'm glad we brought this up...



Thresh:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-3 Ponder
-1 Wipe Away
-4 Street Wraith
+3 Dark Confidant
+3 Abeyance
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Echoing Truth

This is wrong, even for your build. Boarding out uncounterable bounce (even if they don't have CB, it bounces Goyfs and Land) for Echoing Truth is not right.



Other Storm Combo:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-3 Ponder
+3 Abeyance
+1 Echoing Truth

Here, Ponder should be left in and instead -1 Tendrils, -1 Wipe Away, -1 IGG.



White Stax:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Street Wraith
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's Recall


-3 Street Wraith +3 Dark Confidant in addition to this.



Loam:
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Ill Gotten Gains
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chain of Vapor


Loam actually has two major hate strategies. The first is discard + extirpate. This is best attacked through Dark Confidants and leaving IGG in. Here you want to board down to 1 Chant, since chant is only useful in the unlikely event that they don't tap out on an early turn and you need to avoid Extirpate. The second strategy involves Leyline of the Void, Chalice of the Void, and usually Engineered Explosives or Thorn of Amethyst. Against this strategy, you'll want Dark Confidants and H.Recall/Rebuild in as well, although you'll really wish you were playing Serenity and/or Rushing River under this scenario.

If you want to play a build with Pyroblast, I would highly recommend finding room for Rushing River at the very least, although given that Serenity is such a house against Dragon Stompy, Stax, and Loam, I'd want those as well. If you aren't playing Pyroblasts, Extirpate (as a 1-2 of) is a good option to help shore up the blue matchups as well as being randomly useful against Loam and the combo mirror as well.

[Jaiminho]

(Wipe Out hasn't been in my list in awhile, but I could see a meta where I might potentially want it)
What card is that? Do you mean Wipe Clean?

Also, is Draw4 really good against discard? Rituals (which is the only way to cast Draw4s) or LEDs are usually the first things that get kicked out of my hand.

[emidln]

What card is that? Do you mean Wipe Clean?

I meant Wash Out. Sorry, I've edited that now.

Yes, the draw4s are really good in the face of discard. I find myself Mystical Tutoring for them quite a bit.

[J.V.]

emidln: I agree with you on Serenity, I just don't have any I've had a really hard time finding them. (I don't really wanna break down and Ebay them...)
As for Wipe Away vs. Thresh I actually had intended to add only take it out vs. no counter/top.

[emidln]

emidln: I agree with you on Serenity, I just don't have any I've had a really hard time finding them. (I don't really wanna break down and Ebay them...)
As for Wipe Away vs. Thresh I actually had intended to add only take it out vs. no counter/top.

I think it better against non-CB Thresh as well. An uncounterable way to bounce Stifle mana, Leylines, Crypts, Mage, even a Goyf is a pretty big deal.

[Nihil Credo]

Depending on your metagame, Pyroclasm and Sudden Death immediately become considerations. I keep these cards in a binder for me to make use of in my 75:
[big-ass list]
Tell me, are you ever tempted to add a bunch more land and just pilot the whole pile for kicks?

[jegger]

I'm arrived 3° to a 47 people tournament.

I found only favorable matchup: I lose to a Landstill UW with an anti combo side, I win against pikula, threshold UGR, white stax, vakapox BG (I'm not sure, I don't know very much the deck), belcher. In top8 I win against trinketTOPbalance and I lose against madness survival UG because I do some not obtimum choice and the deck also turns off (mulligan at 4,...).

My deck is very similar to the standard decklist.

My side is:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Duress
2 Serenity
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Massacre
1 EtW
1 Extirpate
1 Orim's Chant

Dark Confidant is the very MVP of the side. With these pairings I side in against Landstill, madness, white stax, vakapox, pikula, trinketTOPbalance and I win many games thanks to card advantage.
I side in EtW only against the deck that can use Extirpte or Meddling Mage, but I never use it.
I don't have Abeyance so I use Duress, but I've seen that Duress in some situations is better than Abeyance.
Serenity not so useful, the problem is the white mana because often I side in Serenity against decks that uses wastelands.
The others cards are usual useful stuff.

I've played TES for almost a year and I test iggy-pop only 30-40 matches, but this deck is better. More stable and it can exit from desperate situations. Storm at the best. :cool:

[rsaunder]

it can exit from desperate situations. Storm at the best. :cool:On that note, I had a hand like that last friday*. Game 1 vs. an unknown deck, I mulled to 4. Petal, LED, Chant, Dark Rit. I pulled a land off of the top, followed by a brainstorm, with which I drew enough to win turn 3 with protection. He didn't even force the chant, but it just goes to show how this deck can go "Oops, I win" from almost any situation.



*I won our little local, 10-0 in games, i forefitted a match where my opponent revealed a vizzerdrix** after I IGGed, i figured he diserved that much for playing such a godawful card. This type of match is why I don't even pretend to report these events anymore.

**He then explained how he could get it out by turn 4, through an elaborate suspend combo, so I really had to concede to his manliness.

[Arsenal]

I'm really liking this deck since it's moved away from Grim Tutors (basically the only thing holding me back). It's like Iggy Pop, but better, and I loved Iggy Pop. I especially like the list that top 8-ed recently per the tournament result thread.

[kicks_422]

Why is EtW being dropped from the MD? I love the card, it puts so much pressure on the opponent even at a low storm count, enough for me to sculpt my hand into a lethal Tendris...

Also, my list runs 4 each of Chant and Ponder, and 1 bounce spell (Wipe Away) and no Draw4's in the MD. I figured why not play 4 of each of the best spells in the deck? I've found Draw4's a bit lacking, since I love card quality over quantity (hence the 4th Ponder).

[emidln]

I never actually cast ETW. I usually play under the assumption that my opponent has an answer to it given that when I cast it in tournament play, my opponent follows up with Echoing Truth, EE, or Pyroclasm. I'd much rather have a stable manabase than the potential for a card that routinely gets me 7 for 1'd.

I like the 4th Ponder, but the draw4 is important as a tutor target against targeted discard decks. When I cut it, I was always running into situations where I needed the draw4 so I returned it to its slot. Recently, I've been switching between Death Wish #1, Cruel Bargain #1, and Ponder #4, although I think Cruel Bargain is winning the slot right now.

BTW, anyone who has cut red should heavily consider basic Plains. It is the nuts. Seriously.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I don't play this deck very often, occassionally I proxy it (have everything but the Underground Seas) up and mess around at my local card shop, but I really think, since this is a storm deck, there should be 1 Empty in the main. You don't even have to mess with the manabase. 4x Lotus Petal and 4x LED will do the trick. Empty the Warrens generally allows you to win games you shouldn't, especially against Threshold or random aggro game 1. Because regardless of the deck there will be times where you just can't do a lethal Tendrils (usually when you don't have any cards in hand) and is always nice against an opponent who gets a Leyline into play. Or an Extirpated Tendrils, as Extirpate is starting to pick up steam in Legacy.

I am not saying it has to be in the deck, but I used this as an example in the SI thread but it applies here as well cause I used the same cards. I was playing B.C.'s 2x Land Version against B/W Confidant and turn 3-5 I had no cards in hand with 2 LED, Chrome Mox, and a Bayou in play and was looking at a Hippie and Dark Confidant on the other side of the table. I ripped Infernal Tutor off the top, did the IGG loop and cast Empty the Warrens for 12. I just love the versatility of Empty the Warrens cause it really lets you win games you shouldn't or stalls long enough to set up for a win. Plus it is also nice to always have an extra out incase you can't find your bounce for Leyline and Meddling Mage.

[Jaiminho]

ETW is only able to be good pre-side. Decks usually pack creature hate and those are easily sided out in favor of ETW killers such as EE (which is many times MDed), Plague, Pyroclasm and Echoing Truth. There is probably not a single non-aggro deck that doesn't have any spell like that. Even pre-side, it can only be useful against decks without an absurd amount of cantrip using maindeck EE (read Thresh) and when you are not about to die from a reaching damage.

I seriously hate ETW when I need any topdeck to win next turn, except for uncastable ones, since I got Infernal Tutor and no LED. I lost a match in a recent event because of that.

Despite all of this, I'm prolly not taking it out anytime soon.

[jegger]

I play with an EtW maindeck for more than 2 months; perhaps I win 4-5 matchs with it, all others times it's an horrible and scary topdeck. So I cut it.
You must consider that this deck is not fast like TES or Belcher so many decks have the time to searrch or to play more expensive global response like WoG or Deed or Prison or milions others cards.
I play in side (without using any red land maindeck because I don't want to build a weaker manabase against blood stompy or white stax only for a card that perhaps I can play only 1 time in all the tournament (last tournament I never play it)) because, as I said, if my opponent play a Duress + Extirpate on ToA I want an emergency exit. The same is for Meddling Mage, in some situations, with a mage into play naming ToA and my hand without massacre/bouncers/mystical but with a combo hand perhaps I can play 16 or more goblins and I can win with them without waiting the right topdeck.
From my testing, these are the unique situations where EtW is useful.

The version I play to last tournament is for me the best (I have only some doubt on the diatribe abeyance/duress and serenity/more bouncers effects).
So I'll wait to see the spoiler of Shadowmoor before I'll do some changes. I hope wizards prints also only 1 card for combo. It's enough.


i forefitted a match where my opponent revealed a vizzerdrix** :eek: :eek:

In my meta all play serious cards. But next time I'll put in side a vizzerdrix or squire. what is the best? :tongue:

p.s.: why this thread is not in the Established Decks section? How many others top8 we must do to reveal the power of this deck...?!?!

[deviant]

p.s.: why this thread is not in the Established Decks section? How many others top8 we must do to reveal the power of this deck...?!?!

Be quiet. There is no primer or something so this can't be moved. If the general public is not aware of this deck, we can pretend to not be storm-combo for maybe even 2 turns. It's just hilarious to pull a tendrils for 26 when your opponent tought you were playing black ***** or something. It's not like this deck is a secret, but most people are still not aware of it.

[emidln]

Be quiet. There is no primer or something so this can't be moved. If the general public is not aware of this deck, we can pretend to not be storm-combo for maybe even 2 turns. It's just hilarious to pull a tendrils for 26 when your opponent tought you were playing black ***** or something. It's not like this deck is a secret, but most people are still not aware of it.

Most people put me on White Thresh or Fish before I cast Mystical, cycle Street Wraith, or start playing rituals. This is actually pretty good because if they knew I was playing Tendrils, they should be trying to stop my Brainstorms and Ponders, a tactic that flies directly in the face of traditional wisdom against the aggro-control mirror. I usually fetch out basic Island, Plains, and Tundra first so it's pretty easy to sell people on 3 or 4c CounterTop with some marginal acting.

Also, I'm kinda lazy and haven't finished the primer yet. I'll be finished...any day now.

[Apex]

I've picked up Fetchland Tendrils based on reading the posts here and on mtgsalvation by emidln. I have to say, this is a really good deck, and I've even managed to have some success in a local tournament with it, splitting the finals with a UGw thresh deck. Granted, it wasn't cutthroat competition, and I didn't really face alot of hate. I just have one thing to add on the EtW issue.

With Morningtide, goblins got Warren Weirding and Earwig Squad. I'm seeing alot of decks that are maindecking these cards now, one or the other. Weirding kills Mongoose (and doesn't do anything against Fetchland Tendrils), while Earwig Squad can easily shut this deck down in game 1. Particularly since Fetchland Tendrils doesn't have that good of a time against first turn lackeys. I think that Empty the Warrens should be played at least as a sideboard card as a 2 of. I'm seeing alot of lists with boards that don't have Empty the Warrens, since it isn't particularly good, but in a goblin heavy area, I think Empty the Warrens might even be good as a 2x maindeck secondary kill option. With 2x Tendrils and 2x Empty the Warrens, you are guaranteed at least 1 win condition even if your opponent prowls out an Earwig Squad on turn 2 with the help of a Warchief. Then you combo off on the next turn with a bajillion tokens and chant them during their upkeep so they can't Matron into Sharpshooter and wipe your army.

[Jaiminho]

For that, they need a Lackey + Warchief + Earwig Squad. Losing to that is like losing to turn 1 Mana, Ritual, Duress, Therapy, Therapy, which is pretty much acceptable, since you will see that once in your life. Ayway, if you are having problems with that, just keep an additional Tendrils in the SB.

[Apex]

Matron acts as another 4 copies of Earwig Squad. What usually happens, is that they prowl out the squad on turn 3, and I lose pretty much all of my win cons. I've had people taking away my 2 Iggy and 1 Tendrils. So even with my only Tendrils in hand, I can't always reliably get a storm count of 10 before goblins kill me. Of course, there are more games where I can go off on turn 2 or 3 on the play, but I just don't like my deck to completely lose to one card if it resolves.

Something that just wrecks this deck should be considered when deckbuilding/tweaking, and adding 1 additional (or 2, if you don't maindeck 1 Empty the Warrens) win condition should be looked into, even if it might be a subpar choice against some decks. At least it shores up a glaring weakness against 1 particular matchup. Especially one that's becoming more popular (at least it seems so in our area).

[emidln]

Matron acts as another 4 copies of Earwig Squad. What usually happens, is that they prowl out the squad on turn 3, and I lose pretty much all of my win cons. I've had people taking away my 2 Iggy and 1 Tendrils. So even with my only Tendrils in hand, I can't always reliably get a storm count of 10 before goblins kill me. Of course, there are more games where I can go off on turn 2 or 3 on the play, but I just don't like my deck to completely lose to one card if it resolves.

Something that just wrecks this deck should be considered when deckbuilding/tweaking, and adding 1 additional (or 2, if you don't maindeck 1 Empty the Warrens) win condition should be looked into, even if it might be a subpar choice against some decks. At least it shores up a glaring weakness against 1 particular matchup. Especially one that's becoming more popular (at least it seems so in our area).

I suggest learning to push your goldfish faster or make the little plays that make it impossible to prowl the guy (like chanting them). Diluting the deck for an unproven build of a good matchup is a bad idea. That said, you could easily play Death Wish, more copies of Tendrils, ETW, or whatever you feel like in the sideboard. The core of the deck will beat Goblins by itself. You just need to figure out which win condition you want. Boarding in 1 Death Wish and 1 Tendrils would likely be better than any number of ETW given that ETW is so hated in other sideboards.

[Apex]

Yeah, I don't know how to chant properly half the time. Against aggro decks, I sometimes just throw it out there as fast as possible to "walk" them (term used loosely). Maybe I have to try and time it. Are there particular signs you watch out for when you are chanting an aggro player? I.e. Lackey on the board, Disiple already out, etc? Against control/aggro control, I tend to hoard chants until I can go off. Though I've been reading some Tendrils variant game reports, and it seems people are going for 2x Tendrils against control more often than hoarding chants. Is that the correct play generally?

Against Earwig Squad, the Death Wish is a cool suggestion, I might even main the Death Wish instead of my 1 Empty the Warrens from now. After board, I'll bring in the other Tendrils in the board. This way, I will have 2x Iggy, 3x Tendrils and 1x Deathwish to avoid a fast prowl. Thanks emidln.

[ACME_Myst]

Last saturday I had a qualifier for the Dutch Masters tournament. I finished in 17th place out of 40 participants.
Shame on me. Here's what happened:

The evening before a friend of mine who just moved gave a goodbye party in her old house. After a bit too much beer,
I go get 3 and a half hours of sleep. I surpisingly wake up without a hangover, take a quick shower, grab my bag, and
head to the trainstation. I meet my friend in the train, and we play some games on the way there, destroying his Aggro Loam
5-0, at which point he decides Fetchland Tendrils is the next deck he's going to build.
When we arrive in Amsterdam, we take the subway in the wrong direction, but luckily found out soon enough. We head back,
and arrive at the tourney with 15 minutes until registration closes. I trade for a FNM foil Tendrils with my favorite dealer, and ask
him to keep an eye open for a second one. We walk around to scout a bit, and see a shitload of ******** being goldfished everywhere.

During the seatings, the judge tells everyone we will be playing 6 rounds of swiss, followed by top8. I'm pretty confidant at this point
that I'm going to make it in.

Here's the list I played:

Fetchland Tendrils

Lands (14)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Mana (16)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

Cantrips (11)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Street Wraith

Tutors (9)
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor

Protection (4)
3 Orims Chant
1 Wipe Away

Bombs (6)
1 Cruel Bargain
2 Ill-gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard (15)
1 Orims Chant
2 Abeyance
4 Serenity
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
3 Dark Confidant
1 Empty the Warrens


Pairings are up, and the tournament begins.

Round 1 vs Eva Green

Game 1:

He's taking quite some time thinking about his hand before he keeps, and I put him on a combo mirror. I keep a reasonable
hand, and easily combo him out without any disruption or clock.

Game 2:

He opens swamp, nothing. I open with Island, Petal, Confidant, go. He just plays some Thoughtseizes without any pressure,
while I can't draw into a second land / petal. I have 2 LED in play because Confidant was drawing me so much cards and i didn't want to discard. He then plays Null Rod. After a while, he's at 9 life from Confidant beats, and plays a Hippy. My deck decides that shouldn't be allowed, and I draw fetch, dark ritual. I play fetch -> swamp, Rit, Rit, Cabal (treshed), Cabal, Grim Tutor, Tendrils for 12 life.

We chat a bit after the match, and I trade him for an Unhinged foil Swamp.

Matches: 1-0 ; Games: 2-0


Round 2 vs Stifle-Naught

Game 1:

He's sitting there playing Islands and doing nothing, I don't have a very good hand but decide to test him, and play Rit, Draw4. It resolves, but my hand still sucks.
He puts me down to 4 life with Factory beats, then I play Chant, and it resolves. I didn't expect that, but to thank him, I put his lifetotal way below zero.

Game 2:

He get's down Counterbalance, blindly hitting my cards 5 times before he finds Top, after which he beats me down with Factory. I can't find Wipe Away, or resolve a tutor for it.

Game 3:

He get's down Counterbalance again, this time with Top. When I'm at 2 life from Goyf beats, I eot Wipe Away his Counterbalance. I untap, play Chant (Fow). At this point, I knew he had a Stifle in hand because he revealed one off CB. I play fetch, crack, baiting him to Stifle it. He bites, and I play some mana, Infernal Tutor, and he Spell Snares. I burn to death because of my own LED mana.

Matches: 1-1 ; Games: 3-2


Round 3 vs GWB Loam Control

Game 1:

We chat a bit, and before the match starts this guy thinks I'm still playing Wild Zombies. After some of his Confidant beats, I play Chant and Tendrils him to death.

Game 2:

I fan open a hand of 7 containing 4 Cabal Rituals. At some point in, I could have easily comboed, but he was bluffing Extirpate and I didn't have Chant. Not comboing gave him time to destroy my lands which kept me from winning. Terravore beats finish the job.

Game 3:

Im extremely pissed for losing to Loam, and I really want to get my revenge. I have a slow hand, and for some reason Im topdecking crap like Empty the Warrens, Iggy, and both of my Tendrils. When he puts me down to 5 life, I'm going to have to combo, Extirpate or not. He's still at 19 life, I do the math, and I'm not going to make it.
I can however play Empty for a shitload if I play the Iggy in my hand. I only have 1 land, and no rituals. I play Petal, Petal, Petal, LED, Iggy, crack LED. He's looking at my graveyard, and I see his Extirpate coming. He fetches, going down to 18, and plays Extirpate on my Cruel Bargain. I'm like WTF, sure, and return Petal, Petal, Tendrils and combo him for exactly 18 lifeloss.

Matches: 2-1 ; Games: 5-3


Round 4 vs UB Control

Game 1:

Im cantripping a bit, he's doing nothing much. During the match he was constantly saying I was playing combo, while all I did was playing cantrips and fetches. After saying again that "You really do play combo", he puts down Engineered Explosives @ 2. I shrug, play Chant, and it just resolves. I combo him out easily. With his lifetotal below zero, he tells me that I'm playing a very bad deck, and he hasnt seen anyone playing Iggy Pop in the last year or so. I inform him that this is more like an evolution of Iggy Pop, but he still thinks it sucks. I decide to teach him a lesson.

Game 2:

Duress, double Hymn to Tourach, Extirpate, and Tombstalker turn 4 where a bit too much for me. He informs me that he was right about my deck sucking.

Game 3:

I'm obviously on the play. He mulligans down to 6, saying something along the lines of "WTF, yeah I'm going to keep this hand for sure!". He then dares me to combo on turn 1. I call his bluff, playing Island, LED. He then says "Oh crap, you really are going to do it.". I play Petal, Cabal Rit, Infernal Tutor, crack LED, Empty for 10 tokens. He plays Island, Brainstorm, and picks up his cards. It turned out that he boarded out Explosives. After this match, he's constantly walking around the tournament being cranky and ignoring me.

Matches: 3-1 ; Games: 7-4

At this point, all I have to do is win the next match, and I can draw into top8. Having just played against control all day, I hope to finally see an aggro opponent.


Round 5 vs MUC

When I see my opponents name on the pairings list, I'm like "Oh fuck!", as I knew he played MUC, since we've been sitting side by side for 2 matches. I install myself, and when he sits down, I tell him that I've been playing against control all day, and I'm currently 3-1. He's very nervous as he shuffles up.

Game 1:

I start with an early Mystical for Chant, hoping to draw into another tutor quickly. I draw another Chant after that, but can't find a tutor. I lose to MUC beatdown.

Game 2:

He's getting beatdown again, while I draw lots of Chants and Abeyance's. I try playing Chants a bit, but everything gets countered. With 1 Abeyance left, him with 2 cards in hand, and me dying next turn, I have to do it. I play Abeyance, to which he responds with Brainstorm. He puts back two cards, and plays Spell Snare. He has 1 card in hand, I play my mana, and play Infernal Tutor which would get Tendrils for lethal. In response, he plays Impulse, having 2 cards to find a counter. He looks at the four cards, returns 3 to the top of his deck, and plays Counterspell on my Infernal. Wait, did you get that? He returns 3 cards to the top of his deck. I think about what to do for a minute, but decide to be an asshole and call the judge, since I really want to make top8. I inform the judge of what happened, but he decides to just return the 3 cards to the bottom, give my opponent a Warning, and continue from there. He untaps, swings, and I'm out of top8.

After the match, we chat for a bit, and he tells me that just this morning he decided to reconfigure his deck and just play 17 counters. I thank him for doing that, and go get a beer.

Matches: 3-2 ; Games: 7-6

I really hope that 4-2 might still get me a spot in top8, but I'm not counting on it. I hope to finally play against an aggro opponent, but it was not meant to be.


Round 6 vs Scepter-Chant

Game 1:

My opponent was being very happy, but every turn saying "Untap, upkeep, draw", which was really annoying. He plays turn 2 Scepter, imprinting Chant. Lucky for me I had Wipe Away in hand. During my turn, I unload all my artifact mana so I won't have to discard. I'm just chilling there for a bit, while he beats with Factory. I play eot Wipe Away, and during my turn I play Orim's Chant, which he Fows. I then play some rituals, Tendrils with 1 black floating and Island untapped. He takes the lifeloss, and I cast Cabal Ritual, which resolves again, and I cast the second Tendrils in hand FTW. He shakes my hand, congratulating me on my way of playing it.

Game 2:

We have Chant/Abeyance battles, but he finds all four of his Chants (without any tutors). Multiple Factory beats got there.

Game 3:

Again, we have Chant/Abeyance battles. He beats down with Factory, and with me on 6 life, I have to do it. With 3 duals, 1 fetch and 1 LED in play, 2x Cabal Rit, Grim Tutor, Abeyance in hand, I'm getting in. I tap 2 lands, cast Abeyance, which he Dazes. In response, I fetch, going down to 5, and cast Cabal Ritual. He responds to ritual by casting Orim's Chant. I manaburn out of the tournament.

Matches: 3-3 ; Games: 9-8

So, I take combo to a tournament, and to recap my matches: Eva Green, Stifle-Naught, Loam Control, UB Control, Mono-Blue Control, Scepter-Chant. Yeah...

Props:
-My deck, for not crapping out on me too much.
-The tournament being held in a bar, so I could smoke and drink beer all day. Note I didnt touch any beer until I was X-2.
-Grim Tutor, for being insane all day.
-2x FNM Foil Tendrils.

Slops:
-Playing against control all day.
-Topdecking Empty the Warrens for the lose.
-Finishing 3-3 while you know both you and your deck deserve better.

If any of my opponents spot errors in this report, please say so and I will gladly change them.

[Arsenal]

Could we get a definitive list of must-have slots, list of meta slots, a primer, etc? I feel this deck is being neglected due to New and Developmental status.

[FoolofaTook]

This deck really should be in the DTB/DTW forum. It's got about 80% of the meta beat off the draw and it's very tough for most of the rest of the field.

[deviant]

The guy is working on that. Follow the thread.
Meanwhile, enjoy being "under the radar".
After the primer is up and a few (big) tournament top8's have happened, the *****-bluff is long gone.

(I predict this to be a dtb in two months after the primer by the way..)

[FoolofaTook]

The guy is working on that. Follow the thread.
Meanwhile, enjoy being "under the radar".
After the primer is up and a few (big) tournament top8's have happened, the *****-bluff is long gone.

(I predict this to be a dtb in two months after the primer by the way..)

I don't play the deck and I hate playing against it. I think it's the most likely deck to make Orim's Chant an inclusion in many control based decks. What's the best answer to them popping Orim's Chant in your face during their turn? Chant back.

[thefreakaccident]

scepter chant will never be viable in legacy again... there are too many threats in the format, stifle, needle, grip, wipe away... need I say more?

[kicks_422]

Could we get a definitive list of must-have slots, list of meta slots, a primer, etc? I feel this deck is being neglected due to New and Developmental status.


The guy is working on that. Follow the thread.
Meanwhile, enjoy being "under the radar".
After the primer is up and a few (big) tournament top8's have happened, the *****-bluff is long gone.

(I predict this to be a dtb in two months after the primer by the way..)

There already is a primer. Not here though. And besides, the deck is a bit complicated just to pick up and play because it's very non-linear. Some players might not be able to squeeze out its full potential.


scepter chant will never be viable in legacy again... there are too many threats in the format, stifle, needle, grip, wipe away... need I say more?

He never mentioned anything about Scepter. However, in control, Chant is weak in Legacy outside of combo because time walk effects aren't too hot in slow control decks. And if as an SB card, it can't do it alone.

[FoolofaTook]

scepter chant will never be viable in legacy again... there are too many threats in the format, stifle, needle, grip, wipe away... need I say more?

I don't think Scepter-Chant is where people would go if they felt the need to put Orim's Chant in the deck as protection against the combination of Orim's Chant and storm. They might put one scepter in as a potential feature but as you point out that's a 2 for 1 waiting to happen.

I think they'd put 4 Orim's Chant in and figure they either had a semi-Timewalk to use when they needed it or the answer at hand when somebody popped the chant in their face preparatory to going off. It wouldn't be a fool-proof defense but it would be a lot better than sitting on an FoW that couldn't stop a second chant or a Stifle that became dead in hand.

It's too easy for Fetchland Tendrils to beat dedicated counter control at this point. If CounterTop became a viable solution for counter control then you'd see Trickbind go into Fetchland Tendrils to shut it down.


He never mentioned anything about Scepter. However, in control, Chant is weak in Legacy outside of combo because time walk effects aren't too hot in slow control decks. And if as an SB card, it can't do it alone.

I think semi-permission based control is going to mutate towards combinational win conditions itself as the meta picks up speed and as combo becomes more resilient. Orim's Chant would double as protection against combo and as the enabler of the win con in that scenario. In some ways Fetchland Tendrils is already the reverse progression of combo mutating more towards control and permission. The current permission based combo, which is primarily StifleNought on the one hand and Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam/nasty lands on the other, does not really work effectively with Orim's Chant because it does not kill in the course of a single turn. Something else is going to have fulfill the combo win condition in order for Orim's Chant to become a killer in permission based control in the same way it is in Fetchland Tendrils.

[deviant]

There already is a primer. Not here though.


The primer at stormboards is not quite finished I think.

[kicks_422]

Well, I wasn't expecting the deck to get into DtB this early, but I guess it just speaks of the how good the deck is. It also puts up results, not just hypothetical tesing data.

Now that I've dropped EtW, the deck functions smoother. You're right emidln... EtW is just bad when the deck takes 2-3 turns to set up. However, I'm still searching for a back-up win condition outside of Confidant/Wraith beats. I'm hoping something comes out of Shadowmoor. (I was a bit intrigued by Din of the Fireherd, but figured it was too slow. Besides, if I find room for it, I'd play Promise of Power over it)

[Jaiminho]

Along with some people, I am now running 1 Death Wish in the maindeck. This exiles ETW to the sideboard, which is the nearest it can get to the deck.

Since many times I hate to topdeck Wipe Away as much as ETW, I have taken it to the sideboard. Another advantage Death Wish brought me. There are 2 Wipe Aways in my SB, though, since I can maindeck one in the matches that matter for both tutoring and wishing, raising the amount of Wipe Aways from 1 to 8. I'm using 2 LDVs, by the way. It is amazing for setting up a hate card followed by something you need to win. Add this to the synergy with Draw4s, all those 8 cantrips (4 Ponders here) and 4 Wraiths.

[kicks_422]

How'd you find space for Death Wishe, full sets of the 2 cantrips, Draw4's, and Vaults?

As much as I hate topdecking Wipe Away when it's not needed, I think it's crucial to have at least one in the MD. Death Wishing for it takes too much time, especially for a deck that takes advantage of all the little intricacies of the game.

On that note... I might try out a single Death Wish in the MD to see how it goes. I don't like the fact that I'll have to dilute the SB for just one card in the MD, but I'll see how it goes.

[emidln]

How'd you find space for Death Wishe, full sets of the 2 cantrips, Draw4's, and Vaults?

As much as I hate topdecking Wipe Away when it's not needed, I think it's crucial to have at least one in the MD. Death Wishing for it takes too much time, especially for a deck that takes advantage of all the little intricacies of the game.

On that note... I might try out a single Death Wish in the MD to see how it goes. I don't like the fact that I'll have to dilute the SB for just one card in the MD, but I'll see how it goes.

My guess would be no basic plains (14 lands), no draw4, no Wipe Away MD, and either -1 IGG or -1 Tendrils. I played Death Wish over the weekend and, while it's really strong, I'm not sure if its strength is enough to justify the two slots I had in my sideboard to make it not worthless game 1. (I hated it just being utility so I added 1 Tendrils, 1 ETW to be useful w/ Wish and to protect against Earwig Squad.)

Also, I'll post what parts of the primer I have finished so far tonight, although I don't intend to cross-post much between here and the storm boards.

[Jaiminho]

How'd you find space for Death Wishe, full sets of the 2 cantrips, Draw4's, and Vaults?

I'm trying this list:

14 lands (7 fetches, -Volcanic, +Plains)
16 Default Accel
8 Default Tutors
1 Tendrils
2 IGG
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 LDV
1 Draw 4
1 DW
3 Chant

I'm trying to decide on the best SB for a meta with a considerable amount of Suicide/Deadguy, with some Thresh, Dredge, TES and Faerie Stompy. I'm trying this:

1 Tendrils
1 Chant
1 Abeyance
2 Wipe Away
4 Bob
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Extirpate
3 Serenity

No room for ETW, though.




As much as I hate topdecking Wipe Away when it's not needed, I think it's crucial to have at least one in the MD. Death Wishing for it takes too much time, especially for a deck that takes advantage of all the little intricacies of the game.

I'll be taking down some matches in the next days to see if the indirection for Wipe Away is sucking or not. Also, since I can fetch any other hate, I get a better g1 against Stax-like decks, which already get owned post-SB. Serenity g1? Nice.



On that note... I might try out a single Death Wish in the MD to see how it goes. I don't like the fact that I'll have to dilute the SB for just one card in the MD, but I'll see how it goes.

You don't dillute the SB. It's a card for fetching answers -- it doesn't work entirely as Burning Wish in TES. Your wishboard is gonna keep all those answer cards unworthy of topdecking, which are already in your sideboard. When you need to side them in, you gotta balance wishability with tutorability, so you run the maximum amount of answers taking into account the tempo and life loss of DW compared to maindeck tutors.

[GreenOne]

Wow, a great amount of combo in the DTB forum! I love that! I wonder how's IggyPop's thread back, if people isn't writing in it since 2nd February.

However, has Lim Dul's Vault been extensively tested? seems like a nice set-up card, if the deck needs more of those (does it?). Its "combo" with brainstorm shouldn't be overlooked though.

[emidln]

Wow, a great amount of combo in the DTB forum! I love that! I wonder how's IggyPop's thread back, if people isn't writing in it since 2nd February.

Or the fact that nobody has top8'd with that list in a very long time. The top8s were all without Intuition and Leyline, hence this thread.

[WiLdFiRe]

Grats on the DtB forums guys. Currently assembling this deck IRL, minus the red splash because I never, ever, ever cast it in testing. like, ever.

[BreathWeapon]

If I were MDing Death Wish, I would SB Massacre for Meddling Mage removal and Reverent Silence for Counterbalance removal with a /g splash. The tutor is expensive, so your answers may as well be free.

Also, I'd be all over Death Wish -> Slithermuse.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Wondering if Oona, Queen of the Fae (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69243&stc=1&d=1207713794) could possibly be a replacement for EtW. I know it's not like we can mill ftw, but the idea of a bunch of critters could be an exceptable outcome. 6cc plus (x)U/B for tokens might be too much of an investment, though. But, you can get multiple Rits and LEDs, and even IGG for them for a decent amount of tokens.

This is for discussion, and simply an idea. I'm not strictly advocating this, so don't bash. It's good to think. Innovation is what's put this deck on the map. Just trying to further it's development.

It keeps this deck UBw while still giving an alternate win-con and/or chump-blockers.

[conboy31]

I think the fundamental problem with the Fae is that it will be the only creature you have on the board, so anything that can kill a creature -smother or makes you sacrafice a creature will take it down. On the turn Fae is played you probably will not have enough mana to pump out babies as if you did you would have won the game with other cards.

Essentially, I think, it would end out 4 for 1ing you.

[Arsenal]

I'm pretty sure it can't be Smothered.

But yeah, I don't see the reason/need for Fae when the current gameplan works pretty well. And if you really want 1/1 tokens to smash face, isn't that what the rarely-used ETW is for?

[conboy31]

Right, that is what I was trying to convey with the minus sign in front of smother.
I really don't see how Fae could be playable though, game 1 they have removal. Games 2 and 3 they may side out removal, but then again they will be siding in some form of combo hate which means the old school 5/5 Tomb land may be just as good as Fae.

[WiLdFiRe]

Oona is stupidly mana intensive, if you want to play a dude in this spot I think that Meloku would be a better target. Besides, playing a dude makes their removal relevant.

[Arsenal]

If I were MDing Death Wish, I would SB Massacre for Meddling Mage removal and Reverent Silence for Counterbalance removal with a /g splash. The tutor is expensive, so your answers may as well be free.

Also, I'd be all over Death Wish -> Slithermuse.

Massacre. I've always liked this card, but why would you run this over Damnation? Damnation hits Mage, and other random junk floating out there that Massacre might not hit.

[C.P.]

Massacre. I've always liked this card, but why would you run this over Damnation? Damnation hits Mage, and other random junk floating out there that Massacre might not hit.

Because it's Free?

[Arsenal]

HAHAHAHA, I'm retarded. I confused Massacre with Mutilate. I'm retarded. Please disregard.

[TeKo]

3BBBB and half your life to blow up some critters?

You can play Massacre for free and it kills MM or other shit even Goblins since most builds play the white splash.

[emidln]

Pyroclasm hitting both Mage and Teeg is much more relevant than something being Free. If you were in desperate need of ways to get rid of multiple mages that wasn't Echoing Truth or Rushing River, Clasm would likely be the choice unless you were green (then you have the possibility of Deed).

In any event, I've been using Death Wish primarily to find things I already play with. The reason for this is that my Death Wish is a 1-of, and dilluting my sideboard plans for a 1-of seems really bad. The only concessions I've made to Death Wish are Empty the Warrens and Tendrils of Agony. Empty the Warrens has been very "meh" to me so far, winning a few games, but mocking my lack of sideboard space in others. Tendrils is a necessary evil to fight off the looming Earwig Squad which is starting to see play, although playing to something that isn't quite universal may be a mistake (i.e. Tendrils #3 in the board may go). So far, the things I wish for the most are (in order):

Extirpate
Abeyance
Serenity
Extirpated Tendrils
Rushing River
Empty the Warrens

I don't honestly see why you need an alternative win condition, but if you really want one, there are much better options than Oona. For starters:

Empty the Warrens
Tombstalker
Tarmogoyf
Brain Freeze

are all solid options outside of Tendrils/Street Wraith/Dark Confidant.

[Arsenal]

So Death Wish is being played, as a 1-of, in current builds? Wow. Why this over Grim Tutor, which isn't seeing much play at all (except in specific metas)?

[emidln]

So Death Wish is being played, as a 1-of, in current builds? Wow. Why this over Grim Tutor, which isn't seeing much play at all (except in specific metas)?

Death Wish answers Extirpate, the decks called Stax and Dragon Stompy, Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, and decks that don't have a solution to Empty the Warrens. Grim Tutor finds you a card in your deck. They're actually different roles. Death Wish is being used as a second utility card. Also tested in that slot were Echoing Truth #1 and Rushing River #1. Grim Tutor was used to supplement the number of Wipe Aways, the number of Chants, and the number of Infernal Tutors. Grim Tutor is a lot better at what it is meant to do, but Death Wish is meant to do something else.

[Arsenal]

Cool, so DW is accepted in the list?

[emidln]

Cool, so DW is accepted in the list?

Honestly, there are 52 accepted cards and then the last 8 slots are what determines the variant you are playing. The iPop Negation deck, although not designed on the storm boards, actually fits this framework too. This is a cross-post from the storm boards:

Current lists are becoming fairly standardized. I'll try to summarize the decklist and its variants:

//52 Standard Cards
//14-15 Land
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
2+ Land Slots

// 16 Acceleration
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

// 10+ Card Draw
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

// 8+ Tutors
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

// 3+ Protection
2 Orim's Chant
1 Bounce Spell

// 1+ Win Condition(s)
1 Tendrils of Agony

This leaves roughly 8 cards that we haven't quite agreed on yet. Now, some of the cards are under more contention than others. I haven't heard an argument against the 3rd Orim's Chant in at least a month, but things like the number of Ill-Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony, Ponder, Bounce Spells, Empty the Warrens, Colors to be played, Basics to be played, Fetchlands to be played, Draw4s, Grim Tutors, Impulses, Wishes, and various other cards have been. So far, here are the metagame slots:

Island #2,#3
Swamp #2,#3
Plains #1
Mountain #1
Flooded Strand #4
Bloodstained Mire #1,#2,#3
Underground Sea #2,#3
Volcanic Island #1,#2
Tropical Island #1,#2
Tundra #1,#2
Badlands #1
Bayou #1
Tomb of Urami #1,#2,#3,#4

Ponder #3,#4
Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain #1,#2,#3
Dark Confidants #1,#2,#3,#4
Meditate #1,#2,#3
Night's Whisper #1,#2,#3,#4
Impulse #1,#2
Sensei's Divining Top #1,#2,#3,#4

Mystical Tutor #4
Ill-Gotten Gains #2,#3
Death Wish #1,#2
Grim Tutor #1,#2,#3
Lim-Dul's Vault #1,#2,#3
Burning Wish #1
Plunge into Darkness #1,#2,#3
Intuition #1
Enlightened Tutor #1,#2,#3,#4
Trinket Mage #1,#2,#3,#4

Tendrils of Agony #2,#3
Empty the Warrens #1,#2,#3
Brain Freeze #1,#2,#3
Isochron Scepter #1,#2
Tarmogoyf #1,#2,#3,#4
Tombstalker #1,#2,#3,#4

Orim's Chant #3,#4
Abeyance #1,#2,#3
Extirpate #1,#2
Duress #1,#2,#3,#4
Thoughtseize #1,#2,#3,#4
Cabal Therapy #1,#2,#3,#4
Bound//Determined #1,#2,#3,#4
Xantid Swarm #1,#2,#3,#4
Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast #1,#2,#3,#4,#5,#6
Pact of Negation #1,#2,#3,#4
Force of Will #1,#2,#3,#4
Misdirection #1,#2,#3
Daze #1,#2,#3,#4
Disrupt #1,#2,#3,#4
Divert #1,#2,#3,#4
Spell Snare #1,#2,#3,#4
Remand #1,#2,#3,#4
Counterbalance #1,#2,#3,#4

Wipe Away #1,#2
Rushing River #1
Sudden Death #1
Echoing Truth #1
Pernicious Deed #1,#2,#3
Repeal #1,#2
Chain of Vapor #1
Pyroclasm #1

[TeKo]

Do you play Badlands/Volcanics with your Wish->EtW build?
I dont like it to have other colors than B U W with my first 2-3 land drops.

atm my manabase looks like:
4 Strand
3 Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains (I like it^^)
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

I think I'll cut 1 Island for 1 Delta (BrainStorm rox).

Maybe I test Death Wish in the Ponder #4 Slot.

[bladewing019]

Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain #1

What kind of meta would you want 0 draw 4s in?

[ACME_Myst]

Probably a meta consisting of over 75% Burn, Goyf Sligh, Goblins, and combo.

So basically, never.

[Shriekmaw]

What kind of meta would you want 0 draw 4s in?


You want Draw 4's in a control heavy meta, because having cards in your hand against control is very good. Basically, you sit there until you have the ability to go off with protection and drawing cards lets that accomplish this much faster.

[emidln]

What kind of meta would you want 0 draw 4s in?

None, to my knowledge, but builds without it were experimented with. I played without one in the MTGSal tourney and lost the few games that I lost to not having it available as a tutor target. Some people do play without it though, so it's on my list of not universally accepted cards. That's similar to Chant #3, Island #2, and Ponder #3 in how universally it has been adopted. For reference, my UBw manabase looks like this:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

I have not had any problems with manabase stability or color access. Basic plains is so amazing. I can't overstate how good that card is, despite only producing white mana.

[kicks_422]

Basic plains is so amazing. I can't overstate how good that card is, despite only producing white mana.

This is so true. Basic Plains has saved me so many times in testing that I'm never cutting it. Also, the 15-land count has been amazing, it's very stable and IMO is the perfect number of land for the deck. The 4 basics add so much stability. Also, it feels so good when you Tendrils for 24 with only 4 foil Unhinged basics in play. :tongue: However, with the changes I'll be making below, I might try switching the numbers of Basic Island and Basic Swamp.

I think I'm going to try going down to 1 IGG and 1 Tendrils to fit in 1 Death Wish and 1 Infernal Contract. I know I'll miss the 2nd IGG, but I rarely use it twice though. Cutting the 2nd Tendrils might be bad since I lose the double-Tendrils plan that I'm so fond of, but that could possibly be replaced by the utility of Death Wish and explosiveness of Contract. I'll continue with running 4 Chants and the full 8 cantrips MD, as well as a Wipe Away.

[Jaiminho]

I'm skeptic about removing the 2nd IGG since if you can't protect it against discard, you are hoping to be facing an opponent with no answer to ETW or with a slow enough clock to let you set for tutor chain into Tendrils or something of the kind.

In the other hand, Tendrils as a singleton is perfectly fine, I'd say.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm skeptic about removing the 2nd IGG since if you can't protect it against discard, you are hoping to be facing an opponent with no answer to ETW or with a slow enough clock to let you set for tutor chain into Tendrils or something of the kind.

In the other hand, Tendrils as a singleton is perfectly fine, I'd say.

Double Tendrils is standard tho', I wouldn't cut it and leave the deck 100% dependent on LED, Tutor, IGG and Tendrils for no reason.

[tsabo_tavoc]

It must be an outdated question, but anyone could guide me the pros of Fetchland Tendrils against TES? Why Burning Wishes are played over? Thanks:smile:

[kicks_422]

IMO, Fetchland Tendrils is more stable than TES, with all the cantrips and tutors. TES, on the other hand, is more explosive, with lots of rituals and bombs.

I guess you could stretch it a bit and say FT is control-combo, while TES is aggro-combo.

[Jak]

IMO, Fetchland Tendrils is more stable than TES, with all the cantrips and tutors. TES, on the other hand, is more explosive, with lots of rituals and bombs.

I guess you could stretch it a bit and say FT is control-combo, while TES is aggro-combo.

TES has access to Burning Wish, which makes it very resiliant. It runs 6 cantrips to your 7. I wouldn't count Street Wraith as a cantrip.

The strengths I see with this deck would be fetches, which allows the deck to abuse Brainstorm, Cabal Ritual abuse, and the ability to run Wipe Away. TES is probably faster (haven't tested this but plan to today) with more accel, Burning Wish, and the ability to run a rainbow deck. The decks are really different.

[kicks_422]

I wouldn't count Street Wraith as a cantrip.

With Mystical Tutors, and possibly with Ponders and Brainstorms, it is. It also neatly comes in as a back-up win condition.

I agree with everything else you said, though.

[Jak]

I was just meaning that it didn't supply any card quality. It goes really well with this deck though.

[Whit3 Ghost]

TES has access to Burning Wish, which makes it very resiliant. It runs 6 cantrips to your 7. I wouldn't count Street Wraith as a cantrip.
With TES you have to use your game winning cards in order to answer hate. That is without a doubt the deck's biggest flaw.

[Jak]

With TES you have to use your game winning cards in order to answer hate. That is without a doubt the deck's biggest flaw.

Huh? I know what you mean because use Burning Wish hurts when you needed the tutor, but it's the same is for this deck. Do you not use a Mystical Tutor to get Wipe Away?

[emidln]

As far as TES having access to more colors, I don't believe this to be the case. It would be extremely easy for FT to play a manabase of:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island

if FT wanted access to someting like KGrip, ETW, and Pyroclasm postboard. Most pilots don't feel the need when constructing their lists, but with 8 fetches and a large amount of cantrips, the manabase is still stable.

Strengths of Fetchland Tendrils:

Fetchlands - Fetches are easily abusable with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Cabal Ritual. Fetches can also find basic lands, enabling the next strength.

Basic Lands - FT can be very deliberate while setting up because its manabase is extremely strong. (I would argue stronger than anything short of Solidarity or UW Landstill.) Basics yield protection from Blood Moon effects and Wasteland, allowing the probing offensive strategy that the deck's pilots are so fond of.

Wipe Away and Extirpate/Death Wish - FT is capable of shutting down several strategies with tutorable singleton bullets in the maindeck. Strategies not answerable from the main are answerable with Death Wish finding the appropriate answer from the sideboard. It's worth noting that with Orim's Chant, Abeyance and Extirpate, it's usually possible to RFG one half to all of an opponent's hard counters before you go off, guaranteeing the resolution of the next Chant effect.

Street Wraith/Ponder/Brainstorm - This deck may not be immediately recognizable, but its cantrip engine should tip you off. This is a combo variant of Threshold. A huge card quality engine allow you to find everything you need in a speedy manner while going off. You win the control matchup by finding chants, abeyances, and extirpates faster than an opponent can match counters.

Serenity - This is a hidden gem that TES is relunctant to play due to additional manabase restrictions imposed by Chrome Mox. Serenity deals with board control elements (from decks like Stax, Dragon Stompy, Loam Control) in an efficient way. The ability to get rid of problematic enchantments like Rule of Law at the same time as Tormod's Crypt is a really big deal for a combo deck. The drawback of not being tutorable by Mystical Tutor is offset by access to the card game one with Death Wish and the cantrip engine.

Customized Spot Removal and Bounce per Matchup - The large complement of bounce/removal spells in the sideboard allows the pilot to select the appropriate solution to each matchup. Wipe Away, while amazing at stalling an attacker for a turn or putting control's bomb back in their hand, is simply not optimal against decks without countermagic. The option is present to bring in cards like Rushing River, Rebuild, Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapor and Pyroclasm as needed.

[godryk]

Just a quick question about Death Wish. What's its main purpose on the deck? Is it a viable way for going off or it's just a nice tutor for answers that you will play before going off?

I just found it a bit underwhelming for going off, there are many situations in which I'd like DW could find me a Tutor/IGG. Is that really important?

[Jak]

Just a quick question about Death Wish. What's its main purpose on the deck? Is it a viable way for going off or it's just a nice tutor for answers that you will play before going off?

I just found it a bit underwhelming for going off, there are many situations in which I'd like DW could find me a Tutor/IGG. Is that really important?

I think it was put in as an out to Extirpate and the ability to grab random answers when needed.

[Jaiminho]

Jak's right. There's no SB room for a wishboard, so you basically tutor for a wincon (that's what your wishboard is limited to) or for an answer that you already played before DW was added. The fact that it costs 3 is way to cool against stax decks and CB.

BTW, if you can use enough acceleration, you can use it for grabbing Chant. Rarest situation ever, but wtf.

[emidln]

Jak's right. There's no SB room for a wishboard, so you basically tutor for a wincon (that's what your wishboard is limited to) or for an answer that you already played before DW was added. The fact that it costs 3 is way to cool against stax decks and CB.

BTW, if you can use enough acceleration, you can use it for grabbing Chant. Rarest situation ever, but wtf.

It also grabs IGG #3 after you have resolved the first two. This requires a bit of mana, but allows you to beat quite a bit of lifegain without actually playing more than 2 IGG.

[b4r0n]

What are people's sideboards looking like? It seems like there are currently 4 basic categories of cards in the board:

Wish targets (Tendrils/EtW, Extirpate, Chant, Mage/Teeg removal)
Bounce (Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Rushing River)
Anti-control (Confidant, REB/Pyroblast)
Anti-prison (Serenity, Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild)

Are there standard slots that are untouchable? Do you alter the board dramatically based on predictions about the metagame, or just tweak the numbers? Basically, I'm just curious to see how people adjust the sideboard to match their meta.

[emidln]

What are people's sideboards looking like? It seems like there are currently 4 basic categories of cards in the board:

Wish targets (Tendrils/EtW, Extirpate, Chant, Mage/Teeg removal)
Bounce (Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Rushing River)
Anti-control (Confidant, REB/Pyroblast)
Anti-prison (Serenity, Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild)

Are there standard slots that are untouchable? Do you alter the board dramatically based on predictions about the metagame, or just tweak the numbers? Basically, I'm just curious to see how people adjust the sideboard to match their meta.

Your categories are pretty far off. The only things that can legitimately be considered wish targets are Tendrils and ETW, with those being specifically for boarding in against problem matchups (RB Goblins). Extirpate, Chant, and Abeyance are anti-control and anti-combo cards. Sudden Death and Clasm fit pretty well into the bounce category under a new name ("Removal"). As far as my sideboard, right now I'm playing this:

4 Serenity
2 Abeyance
2 Extirpate
1 Sudden Death
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

With a maindeck that includes:

15 Lands
4 Chant
4 Ponder
1 IGG
2 Tendrils
1 Draw4
1 Death Wish
1 Wipe Away

[Mental]

If I were to build this deck, or at least look into it, what would you consider the "must have" cards?

4 Delta
3 Strand
2 Island
1 Sea
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp

4 Brainstorm
4 Street Wraith
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
1-2 Tendrils
1-2 IGG
3 Ponder
2 Draw4

4 Dark Rit
4 Cabal Rit
4 Petal
4 LED

3 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away

My meta looks like:
2-3 Threshold
1-2 Goblins
1 Lands!
1 Dragon Stompy
1 Gbw Survival
1-2 Ichorid
1 Landstill
1 GWb Aggro
+ Some amount of randomness.

What do you people think the open slots should be, considering that I have no access to cards like Grim Tutor, no desire to run Death Wish, and no Tundras? I don't really want to go out and get Tundras, but if one is absolutely necessary, I can get it.

[Jaiminho]

What happened to the Bobs? Not enough suicide-ish decks in your area to justify keeping him there or has he been not strong enough?


Neway, not like it's worth mentioning, but whatever:

I won a small 8 people tournament with: 1 Deadguy, 2 Ugb Thresh, 1 Ichorid, 1 Burn (sucked), 1 Mono Red Sligh (ditto), 1 Dragonstorm (LOL! -- he finished last).

Round 1: Double chant on both games against Ugb Thresh. He couldn't find a CB.
Round 2: Mono Red Sligh. Regular IGG-once combage.
Round 3: Burn. He got the second game from me since I mulled into 5 cards with almost no setup and all I topdecked was Chant (3) and Abeyance (1). I just died, then.

This was the sideboard I carried over:

4 Bob
3 Serenity (boarded 2 in against Ugb Thresh)
2 Abeyance (boarded them all in all matches)*
1 Chant (boarded in against Ugb Thresh)
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth (took MD Wipe Away's slot in counterless matches)
1 Tendrils
1 ETW

* -- Replaced Draw4 and DW since there was nothing better to SB and Time Walking over their sorceries and Pillars would be nicer.

I couldn't find me an Extirpate, so I kept the 2nd Abeyance in. Also, since I helped to assemble both Ugb Thresh decks, I decided not to risk having to wish for Wipe Away in order to get rid of CB game one. It took the 4th Ponder slot.


EDIT - the stuff below:


What do you people think the open slots should be, considering that I have no access to cards like Grim Tutor, no desire to run Death Wish, and no Tundras? I don't really want to go out and get Tundras, but if one is absolutely necessary, I can get it.

Tundra is the most important dual for this deck. I basically always fetch it before any other, as it casts my setup and my protection. I can get black for comboing from Petals or from the next fetched land, which will show up after setuping enough.

[emidln]

I posted a skeleton a page or so earlier of the cards that everyone plays with. I don't really understand the aversion to Death Wish. It's really good against anything that isn't burn. Your list looks to be about 59 cards (assuming 2 Tendrils and 2 IGG) which would lead me to suggest going -1 Draw4, +1 Ponder, +1 Extirpate in your metagame. If you're playing against Extirpates, Death Wish will become a lot better. I would probably board the 4th Chant and 2 Abeyance with 4 Serenity, Wipe Away, Rushing River, Confidants, and Extirpates (1-2).

Tundra is required. If you can't get Tundra, play Hallowed Fountain until you can get Tundra. You fetch for it more than any other dual land. Volcanic Island isn't required at all. The only things you'll consider casting in the color red are ETW and Pyroclasm, neither of which would be required in your metagame.

[meanee]

I have played this deck on and off for quite some time now, and I hate EtW. Therefore I play green.

Yearh I know it sounds awful, but I play 4 xantid swarm in the sideboard, and they are really worth against both landstill and thresh (which are both quite a large part of my meta).
My manabase looks like this:
8 fetches
3 basics (island, swamp, plains)
1 sea
1 tundra
1 scrub
1 tropical
And a bayou in the board too. This also helps in matches against any kind of LD.

Besides from the fact that I play green, I also play 4 chant AND 2 duress main. I don't think that 3 chant is enough - at least not in a metagame with blue in it. Of course - if it works for you guys, gogogo! But I have found myself in a lot of trouble fighting off counters with only three cards to hate it.
In many instances you have to play an ill-gotten gains to win. A clever landstill/thresh player nows this, and that will certainly make him counter the chant, so that when your Gains resolve, he will retrieve his force, to murder your infernal tutor. To fight this, you need A LOT of mana... Something I don't find myself having too often.

Anyway I like the deck a lot, and it is so much fun to play. There is something about playing combo and still being able to fight through counters and discardspells and other shizz...

- meanee

[GreenOne]

In many instances you have to play an ill-gotten gains to win. A clever landstill/thresh player nows this, and that will certainly make him counter the chant, so that when your Gains resolve, he will retrieve his force, to murder your infernal tutor. To fight this, you need A LOT of mana... Something I don't find myself having too often.


Well, not really. Between forces, fetches, opposing Confidants, our Confidants and Wraiths the life total of the opponent is usually something <19. This means that you just have to play 8 spells+Tendrils to win. It's quite easy if you count the opponent counterspell on your Orim and yur cantrips. You can also double tendrils ftw.
I find IGG a great card to speed up the deck in non-counterspell matchups, but I usually go for plan B when my chants get countered. That's why 1 IGG is sided out vs blue decks.

[nightbringer]

Hi,

I just startes following this tread but i was wondering why so few people play Grim tutor?
Is it because its to expensive or is it just no good in this deck?

[emidln]

I have played this deck on and off for quite some time now, and I hate EtW. Therefore I play green.

Yearh I know it sounds awful, but I play 4 xantid swarm in the sideboard, and they are really worth against both landstill and thresh (which are both quite a large part of my meta).
My manabase looks like this:
8 fetches
3 basics (island, swamp, plains)
1 sea
1 tundra
1 scrub
1 tropical
And a bayou in the board too. This also helps in matches against any kind of LD.

Besides from the fact that I play green, I also play 4 chant AND 2 duress main. I don't think that 3 chant is enough - at least not in a metagame with blue in it. Of course - if it works for you guys, gogogo! But I have found myself in a lot of trouble fighting off counters with only three cards to hate it.
In many instances you have to play an ill-gotten gains to win. A clever landstill/thresh player nows this, and that will certainly make him counter the chant, so that when your Gains resolve, he will retrieve his force, to murder your infernal tutor. To fight this, you need A LOT of mana... Something I don't find myself having too often.

Anyway I like the deck a lot, and it is so much fun to play. There is something about playing combo and still being able to fight through counters and discardspells and other shizz...

- meanee

Extirpate will likely treat you a lot better than Duress against control. Extirpate main as a 1-of can be pretty good (especially in an environment filled with Ichorid or blue-based control) where it can nab hard counters eot before you go off post countered chant.

A green splash looks fine although I'd question the usefulness of Bayou in the sideboard unless you board more than a 1-2of KGrip. (I've been considering 1 Trop, SB: 1 KGrip recently with the upswing of targetted discard in Daze decks.) Xantid Swarm is actually pretty bad compared to Abeyance and the combo that Extirpate brings to Chant and Abeyance. I would not recommend rewarding Landstill for not playing 15 anti-combo slots (which would mean they get to leave in STP and/or Deed).

[Whit3 Ghost]

Post testing a few games with Emidln with a KGrip list. I was playing the Hatfield's exact 5c list from VA:

This deck still has issues with Counterbalance game one. Maybe it was MWS, maybe it wasn't, but I won both games preboard on the back of Counterbalance.
Krosan Grip is really good. Actually removing CB is immeasurably better then just bouncing it.
The one postboard game played was won by Emidln through 3 Force of Wills.
5c can deal itself a LOT of damage, which became increasingly relevent as the game progressed.

[Mental]

I posted a skeleton a page or so earlier of the cards that everyone plays with. I don't really understand the aversion to Death Wish. It's really good against anything that isn't burn. Your list looks to be about 59 cards (assuming 2 Tendrils and 2 IGG) which would lead me to suggest going -1 Draw4, +1 Ponder, +1 Extirpate in your metagame. If you're playing against Extirpates, Death Wish will become a lot better. I would probably board the 4th Chant and 2 Abeyance with 4 Serenity, Wipe Away, Rushing River, Confidants, and Extirpates (1-2).

Tundra is required. If you can't get Tundra, play Hallowed Fountain until you can get Tundra. You fetch for it more than any other dual land. Volcanic Island isn't required at all. The only things you'll consider casting in the color red are ETW and Pyroclasm, neither of which would be required in your metagame.

That's fine, I just picked up a Tundra. Thanks for the suggestions. I think that I want to run 3 Ponders, 1 Pate, and 1 Duress. In my testing against Canadian Thrash Duress would have been stronger than Chant in many situations.

[Jaiminho]

Duress does exactly the same as Chant when comboing off, as it takes FOW out of their hand, but Chant counts for an extra storm. Duress, however, won't timewalk, which is way better than being able to disrupt the opponent off one card.

In which situations would Duress be better?

[emidln]

That's fine, I just picked up a Tundra. Thanks for the suggestions. I think that I want to run 3 Ponders, 1 Pate, and 1 Duress. In my testing against Canadian Thrash Duress would have been stronger than Chant in many situations.

Preboard, Canadian Thresh wins only when FT is short on lands/petals. This is actually the common way for FT to lose against aggro-control. (In the games Will mentioned above, I had 1 land game 1 and I believe 2 lands, with the second being very late in game 2.) The way to make FT short on lands/petals is to aggressive Daze/FoW/Disrupt/CB/Red Blast Ponders and Brainstorms. Unlike CB Thresh, Canadian Thresh has little ability to actually counter the setup if FT plays around Daze preboard which will force Canadian Thresh into its mana denial strategy with Stifle/Wasteland. Carefully played, this is easy to work around with fetches and opportune fetching and will generally lead to Canadian Thresh contesting FT on the combo turn, which rarely goes in the favor of Thresh.

[GreenOne]

Duress does exactly the same as Chant when comboing off, as it takes FOW out of their hand, but Chant counts for an extra storm. Duress, however, won't timewalk, which is way better than being able to disrupt the opponent off one card.

In which situations would Duress be better?

Chant also takes away another blue card (pitched to FoW) and 1 life (to FoW too). This helps a lot if you're not going fo the IGG plan

[emidln]

Chant also takes away another blue card (pitched to FoW) and 1 life (to FoW too). This helps a lot if you're not going fo the IGG plan

Chant is significantly better against Counterspell decks. In the event that an opponent has multiple Counterspells but only has the available mana to play one Counterspell (it is common for an opponent to leave Counterspell mana up while using other lands to play threats) playing Chant forces an opponent to tap their lands to counter Chant. This is a better situation for the combo player than Duress which an observant opponent will let resolve since their ability to prevent you from casting threats does not diminish.

[meanee]

I do not think that dures is BETTER than Orim's chant, I play both (4/2 split).
What di you guys do, if you are playing against thresh, og landstill, and they counter your chant and have 1 island untapped? Just play ahead, and hope that he's not got a doombringing stifle, nor a - somtimes very annoying - daze?
See my problem is that I hate to be killed by a stifle, and I just think that happens a lot these days ;)

If you play with just a couple of duress, sometimes you will be able to cast orim's chant - then if it is not countered, Fine! Proceed and win, but if it is countered you play your duress to take out his last counter/stifle. If he can fight you through this, he is either lucky or cheating :)

Of course you can also simply find and play to chant, but I have found the mana requirement to be problematic.

My sb is something along the lines of:
4 confidant
4 swarm
1 tendrils
1 ill-gotten gains (1 death wish main)
2 wipe away (none main)
2-3 krosan grip/rushing river (depending on whether I fear counterbalance or stax)
0-1 bayou

- meanee

[Mister Agent]

Well technically in that circumstance if your an compotent storm combo player that is playing fetchland tendrils. An playset of orim's chants is all you need considering you can always fetch for them with tutors. Of course adding duresses could bring an advantage as well as an disadvantage.

The advantage of playing duress is it gives your tendrils deck more resiliency to countermagic. However, the disadvantage is that it does not really help you to go off efficiently enough when needed. Besides duress does nothing to board hate(e.g. meddling mage, gaddock teeg and etc.) which is an significant downfall.

Besides if you fear countermagic you always can board in your abeyances which can be significant. Especially if you see your opponent plays something like an tormod's crypt on the first or second turn. Abeyance is definitely better then duress too since it takes generally the same role as chant as well as cantripping can be tech.

[GreenOne]

1 ill-gotten gains (1 death wish main)
2 wipe away (none main)
2-3 krosan grip/rushing river (depending on whether I fear counterbalance or stax)
0-1 bayou


Why 1 IGG in side? When you play one of your maindeck IGG it gets RFG, so you can wish for it anyway. If they get extirpated too.

[jegger]

The doubt between Orim's Chant & Duress is an old diatribe I've seen one year ago also in the TES's thread.



What di you guys do, if you are playing against thresh, og landstill, and they counter your chant and have 1 island untapped? Just play ahead, and hope that he's not got a doombringing stifle, nor a - somtimes very annoying - daze?

In the same mode your opponent can counter duress and then he can play stifle on your deadly ToA.

Basically Orim >>> Duress because when you use the Ill-Gotten plan you want that your opponent can't play the cards he takes from grave (stifle, FoW,...). Orim allows to do this, Duress no.

An other situation where Orim >> Duress: if your opponent has no protection and 2 Stifle in hand.

You can consider also that Orim functions like a Time Walk in many situations: against aggro, against disruption decks and like protection (more efficient than Duress) against combo. At my last tournament Orim helps me to take one more turn FTW against an horde of green goblin of a Belcher's player for example.

There is a myriad of situations where Orim >>> Duress. The only disavantages of Orim is that it's white, but with the last builds playing a basic plains this isn't a problem. I think you can cut the duress maindeck and alternatively play them in sb.

I see that you playing a split of both Orim / Duress, but do you really need 6 protection in a deck with so many cantrips and tutors? I think that 6 protections slow down too much the speed of the deck. Usually I play in an heavy blue enviroment but I don't play more than 3 Orim's Chant maindeck because with so many cantrips/draw4/tutors it's not so difficult to search one or more Orim.

Why do you play so many split second card in side?
Don't you need more efficient boucers like Rebuild or response like Serenity instead of all these split second card? Basically split second cards is only for Counterbalance (and marginally for Arcane Laboratory). I think that 1 copy is enough because we have also mystical to search wipe away / krosan grip (I don't like this solution: weak the manabase).

I'm happy that this thread has more visibility, but lately I think that there are a lot of suggests here that are already sayed and tested in the last months.


Why 1 IGG in side? When you play one of your maindeck IGG it gets RFG, so you can wish for it anyway. If they get extirpated too.

I think because sometimes we can start the combo with the only Death Wish in hand so we can search in SB Ill-Gotten and increase the storm combo to 10 (but we need also a tutor or ToA in grave). I don't like this choice, I think that it's a slot in SB wasted away.

[emidln]

There is really no reason to play Xantid Swarm over Abeyance in this deck. At this point, there also isn't much of an excuse to not include at least one copy of these cards in your sideboard:

Echoing Truth
Rushing River
Wipe Away
Extirpate

Serenity should also be an auto-include unless you happen to live in a metagame without Loam, Survival, Stax, Goblins, and Chalice Aggro.

As far as the maindeck is concerned, it's a really bad idea to remove Wipe Away because the color blue does get played in this format. Being able to remove problematic cards game one without fear of countermagic is a big deal.

[emidln]

This post was approaching too long for a PM that I received from rsaunder asking for a current list. I'm posting it here because it seems to be relevant and the questions are important.

The current list is pretty close to the one that you played, although I'm currently experimenting with just what Street Wraith provides in given matchups vs solutions like extra business (which solves a problem I'll talk about a little later) and Portents (to help dig more yielding 10 Cantrips).

These are the cards that I really want to play. It's important to note that this is 66ish cards.

// 15 lands out of these 17
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scrubland

// 16 of 16 accel
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// At least 10 out of these 14, but min 11 with SW
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Portent

// At least 12 out of these 14
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Death Wish
1 Cruel Bargain
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony

// At least 4 of these 6
4 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away

The sideboard has been looking like this (again, note that it is much larger than 15 (22 cards I think)):

// Extra win conditions vs Earwig Squad, Death Wish targets
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

// Anti-discard
4 Dark Confidant

// Anti-permanents
4 Serenity
1 Rebuild
2 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sudden Death

// Blue Hate
2 Abeyance
2 Extirpate

The important questions that I'm running into right now are:

(1) Is the fifteenth land better off as a Flooded Strand yielding 1 basic Island or as a basic Island yielding 3 Flooded Strand?

(2) How many cantrips are optimal? Specifically, is Street Wraith as a 4-of better than 2 Portent and 1 Business, 1 Protection Spell or 2 Portent, 2 Business Spells? (I've determined that I definitely don't want 4 Portent, but 2 seems to be really good.)

(3) Stemming from the second question, how important are the second Ill-Gotten Gains and the second Tendrils of Agony relative to the third and fourth Orim's Chant and the first Extirpate?

(4) Is there enough blue, Ichorid, Breakfast, and the mirror to justify Extirpate maindeck? Against blue is the (virtually) guaranteed resolution of the second Chant after the first Extirpate and the first Chant worth the extra effort required to find either the second Chant or the first Extirpate to pull off the combo in the maindeck?

(5) How much hate for Counterbalance is appropriate. It is easy to splash for Krosan Grip off Tropical Island, but how many Krosan Grip are necessary with what amount of Wipe Aways between main and sideboard?

(6) Is Sudden Death a worthwhile addition to the sideboard? In matchups where multiple Mages are a possibility, Mage on Tendrils, Mage on Wipe Away could be a really difficult situation, but it seems that the best way to use the second Mage (from an anti-FT perspective) is to simply name Tendrils again. This would lead to resolving Chant and then Clasm as the best solution, something that would likely require a Volcanic Island.

(7) Is Pyroclasm necessary? It's my firm belief that Krosan Grip should at least be a 1-of which dictates that Clasm would put us into a 5th Color. This is possible (even with 3 Basics and 7 fetches), but is it worth it?

(8) Does the deck have enough problems with discard that Dark Confidant is worth the 3-4 slots dedicated to him. Without these slots, fitting in hate for Earwig Squad and an Empty the Warrrens is possible (giving maindeck access to ETW via Death Wish).

[jjjoness']

Hi,

I just startes following this tread but i was wondering why so few people play Grim tutor?
Is it because its to expensive or is it just no good in this deck?
I guess, it's just the fact that nobody wants to buy a full playset of them for 'bout 400$. (Don't really know what they're exactly) And actually Grim Tutor is useless in every other deck, uneless you're playing Vintage, and they're very hard to find.
But Grim's also a thing I was wondering about: If I have access to at least one, should I play it?

Another thing I'm not sure about, is the g-splash. Is it worth to run another dual and either increase your landcount or your vulnerability to wasteland/moon, just to run a some grip in sb? Are the any other green cards to play, since we don't need xantid?
And what's the extirpate for? Sure, it's great against ichorid, and it can remove Lftl, but does it really improve some matchups that much, that it's worth the slot? edit: Ah I see, just forgot about the pitchcounters it takes.

[nodahero]

If you flip back a few pages I believe there is a disscussion about running grims in FT. I'm not nearly as qualified to touch on this topic as Emidlin but the end point was that it while amazing against counterbalance as a must counter it didnt really do much else that say a draw 4 or death wish cant do. There was alot more to the arguement I realize but as I said I'm not really the best guy to talk about running grims in here.

As for the green splash I personally do not feel the vulnerability to waste and moon is worthy of its inclusion. Not to mention there has never been a situation where it was any better for then Wipe Away although I understand that that will not always be the case. Not to mention in my meta there is only one (competient (Spelling?)) deck packing counter-top compared to the sheer number and compeitency of players playing some form of deck running waste and/or moon effects.

The extirpate while phenomenal at RFGing a certain hastey annoyance also serves to do recon in control matchups if for example you have no more chants for some unkown reason and need to know if they have something to screw with the plan... It could provide card advantage.. not to mention ripping a hard counter from ur opponent is never bad.

[kicks_422]

Especially so since the deck runs 4 Mystical Tutors to fetch the aforementioned Chants.

[raharu]

(8) Does the deck have enough problems with discard that Dark Confidant is worth the 3-4 slots dedicated to him. Without these slots, fitting in hate for Earwig Squad and an Empty the Warrrens is possible (giving maindeck access to ETW via Death Wish).

To answer the question as it was presented:

To answer the first part, does Confidant repair the damage done by pinpoint discard in a short enough time-frame to combo off before the opponent's pressure kills you? Then yes, but it seems to me that, if Confi lives, he adds to the opponent's pressure and doesn't do enough to help against having your key pieces ripped fom your hand.
For the Second, are you finding Earwig Squad to be a problem? In the Goblins thread they've dismissed it as too slow to matter and haven't included it an any lists. I would be more concerned about the RB lists that run Cabal Therapy or the Rw builds with Orim's Chant than the seemingly sub-optimal Earwig Squad.

[dlevsApiJ]

Hi, i'm also playing this deck, and I really like it (more then TES or something..). This is the build i'm testing:

// Lands
2 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
1 [ST] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [MM] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Death Wish
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 4 [WL] Serenity


- Should 3 Chants main be enough? I see everybody playing 3 main, but why not 1 more? (I dont know what to cut..)
- I don't like Serenity, you have to waste (3/)4 SB slots on it, because you cant tutor it with Mystical Tutor. I think, with all the bounce you play, you can (almost) always find a bounce that does the same thing as Serenity in that situation.
- I also don't like Sudden Death/Pyroclasm/etc to answer Teeg/MM, you have your bounce for them..
- The SB is 17 cards, since I don't know what to cut... (and its also meta dependent)

Tips for the list? Maybe the 4th Ponder/Chant..

Jip

[WiLdFiRe]

Hi, i'm also playing this deck, and I really like it (more then TES or something..). This is the build i'm testing:

// Lands
2 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
1 [ST] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [MM] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [JU] Death Wish
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [JU] Death Wish
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [7E] Duress
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance

- Should 3 Chants main be enough? I see everybody playing 3 main, but why not 1 more? (I dont know what to cut..)
- I don't like Serenity, you have to waste (3/)4 SB slots on it, because you cant tutor it with Mystical Tutor. I think, with all the bounce you play, you can (almost) always find a bounce that does the same thing as Serenity in that situation.
- I also don't like Sudden Death/Pyroclasm/etc to answer Teeg/MM, you have your bounce for them..
- The SB is 17 cards, since I don't know what to cut... (and its also meta dependent)

Tips for the list? Maybe the 4th Ponder/Chant..

Jip

Personally, I'd cut an island for the 4th chant, and the Cruel Bargain/Death wish if you really want to fit in the 4th Ponder.

[emidln]

Duress is a pretty bad card in the sideboard. It's worse than Abeyance in this deck. Death Wish doesn't need to be more than a 1-of in the 75. That frees 3 slots right there. Dark Confidant isn't necessary as a 4-of with Cruel Bargain, which frees another slot. Tendrils isn't necessary unless you are facing down Earwig Squad, so that's another slot. You're at 3 real slots right now. I would highly recommend making those 3 slots Serenity because there is nothing else that costs 2 mana to hose both artifacts and enchantments at the same time so well. That you play 3-4 doesn't matter because you have a large amount of cantrips and if you see even one of them when you board it in, you win the game. There are very few cards that are "gg" material, and this is one of them.

Cutting sources that produce blue mana in a deck that most often mulligans for lack of blue mana is a bad idea. Anytime the second island is cut should be for a land that also taps to cast Ponder/Brainstorm/Mystical Tutor.

[dlevsApiJ]

I really like the 2nd Island, and also like the 15 lands. I cutted the MD wish, because when you see Pate, its probably not Game 1.. And using it to have a toolbox (I was thinking about that) is to mana and Life intensive.. Thanks for the tips :)

I edited the list.. The Sb is 16 cards now, I cut 2 cards each tournament, dependant on the meta..

EDIT: Isnt it an idea to cut the 4th SW in my list for the 4th Ponder? I think Ponder would do much more.. Since I don't use the M Tutor + SW "trick" that much..

[Mental]

So here are my thoughts referring to Emidlin's "possible choices" list a page back.

3 Chant, 1 Wipe Away, and 1 Pate seems optimal. You really do need a stable mana base to go off and Wasteland can really disrupt that. Also, baiting FoW and then Pateing it is a very strong play. I don't see the need for 3 Chant if you're going to run an optimal amount of Mystical Tutors.

15 Lands seems fine, but I'm sticking with 14 for now. I'm running a Trop in the SB and a Volc MB, because in my meta I need access to EtW. However, if I didn't, I wouldn't argue against the Trop MB and no red at all.

Street Wraith is really good usually. He helps you win quickly when that needs to happen, providing Threshold quickly. But I tend to side him out fairly often - It still seems he's more effective than Portent, because Portent doesn't help you at all when comboing out, so you can't chain with it, and costs mana.

On the business section of the deck. I run 2 Tendrils, 1 EtW, and 2 IGG. Double Tendrils is my main wincon Vs. Aggro or Control, while EtW or IGG is my main plan against Aggro.

I don't feel that I'm experianced enough with this deck to provide thoughts on the sidebored. But Confidant is very, very, strong, even not against discard.

For referance, here's my list:

4 Strand
3 Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Sea
1 Volc
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra

4 Street Wraith
4 Ponder
4 BStorm

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Contract

4 Petal
4 LED
4 Cabal Rit
4 Dark Rit

2 IGG
2 Tendrils
1 EtW

3 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away

I think that's 60.

[WiLdFiRe]

4 Strand
3 Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Sea
1 Volc
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra

4 Street Wraith
4 Ponder
4 BStorm

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Contract

4 Petal
4 LED
4 Cabal Rit
4 Dark Rit

3 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away

I think that's 60.
Actually, it's 55?!
You're missing 2 IGG, 2 Tendrils and a Mystical Tutor.

[emidln]

kcapp001 and I were thinking about (and testing) 2-3 Sensei's Divining Top in place of 4 Street Wraith and potentially the 4th Ponder so the config would go to something like this:

3-4 Chant
0-1 Extirpate
1 Death Wish
1 Cruel Bargain
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
3-4 Ponder
2-3 Sensei's Divining Top

The biggest loss is in the mirror where Street Wraith is a great threat. It's theorized that maindeck Extirpate and sideboard Extirpate should be able to let you gain Chant superiority fast enough to actually combo out, although we haven't tested this yet.

SDT opens up a number of interesting plays, functioning somewhat like a Street Wrath for 1 colorless in some circumstances (turning the blue demonic tutor for U into blue demonic tutor for 1U) as well as providing outs to discard, control. The synergy with LED is also really exciting. It's still undetermined if Top is good enough to replace Street Wraith, but the initial testing is promising.

[rsaunder]

Seems too slow. I know that's sort of a bad reason to dismiss something in magic, especially if that something is 1cc, but I think it may be plausable here. I've never been huge into street wraith, the life loss builds up a lot, he makes mulling REALLY challenging sometimes, and sometimes he just looks at me funny. He does, though, get threshold quickly. SDT sounds like it would be a meta choice. In a meta with a ton of control where the extra deck manipulation would be helpful, i can see it being amazing (perhaps not as good as another extirpate). It would make a nice bluff (tundra=>top, go. I'm playing thresh, right?), but in any other sort of meta (heavy combo, agro) I want immediate benefit out of my mana expenditure. Ponder and brainstorm do that, top needs two mana and a turn. Not godawful but not amazing.

Other SDT tricks would be fun, with LED like emidln mentioned. I don't know, I want to see more before I judge completely but it just sounds impractical in an open meta.

[dlevsApiJ]

Hmm, I really like the idea.. I never liked SW that much.. And top is just insane with your Fetchlands.. Sometimes I really wish I could use my Ponder/Brainstorm a second time, cause I'm very topdeck dependent.. Top is a good card for that kind of situations.

I really gonna test the card :) (-4 SW, +3 Top +1 Ponder)

Replacing the 4th Chant with 1 Pate MD sounds nice, has someone tested this yet? Cause I'm not very sure about it.. I think most of the time (especially pre-board, when they dont know youre playing combo most of the time) 1 Chant > 1 Pate, because Pate is only usefull when they already have countered something.. When you have 1 Chant and 1 Pate, 2 Chants are usually also enough (and when you have 1 in hand, the 2nd can be found with an Infernal Tutor.. When you have 1 Pate in hand, you cant find Chants with your In. Tutor..)

Jip

[jjjoness']

Isn't top a problem when it keeps you from getting hellbent when you have no LED?

[emidln]

Isn't top a problem when it keep you from getting hellbent when you have no LED?

Wtf? Why would it be a problem? It costs one colorless. You can play it pretty much any time. It even works with Infernal by keeping stuff you can't cast from getting to your hand.

[dlevsApiJ]

I saw someone at the Storm Boards playing B wish over D Wish in the SB. This seems much better (when you play red in your list), why is this the first time I saw this? Did I forgot something what will be a problem when you have the B Wish? Or am I not the only one that forgot B Wish should be better then D Wish?

I think of playing +2 Top, +1 ETW, +1 Volc. Island,+ 1 Ponder. And -4 SW, -1 Island (from my last posted list)
And SB: -1 D Wish, +1 B Wish

~Jip

[Mental]

Actually, it's 55?!
You're missing 2 IGG, 2 Tendrils and a Mystical Tutor.

Actually, I'm missing 2 IGG, 2 Tendrils, and 1 EtW. That card's a necessity in my Meta.

@Top. I really like the idea too. Cutting SW will give me room to go +3 Top, +1 Contract. Contract, IMO, is one of the most broken cards in this deck in a control heavy meta, because it lets you bait until you can go Chant --> Contract, recover. It's also very useful in conjunction with IGG because you can go Turn 2 Chant, IGG against thresh/landstill, get back Contract, Chant, Land or something like that, and next turn Contract back up to seven while they're stuck with three. IGG is a really underestimated early game card against control. It might not take out their control, but it will take out their clock/manabase.

Now that we're running Top, what about something really crazy. Counterbalance in the bored? I'd have to do a CC count, but it doesn't seem THAT out of place.

[dlevsApiJ]

Cool, I like the idea, CounterTop in a Combo deck, Lool :tongue: .
But I think its to mana/slots intensive.. What do you wanna cut for it?

[Mental]

Cool, I like the idea, CounterTop in a Combo deck, Lool :tongue: .
But I think its to mana/slots intensive.. What do you wanna cut for it?

Well I'm just referring to a sidebored. I'm still fleshing mine out, but as of now, it looks like:

4 Confidant
1 Chant
1 Tranquility
1 EtW
1 Trop
2 KGrip
3 Extirpate
2 Abeyance
EDIT: 1 Pyroclasm would be nice in there somewhere.

So counterbalance would probably go in as a 2 or 3 of. Since it serves the role of protecting the Combo, it could probably replace 2 Abeyance and 1 Extirpate. However, it's completely untested.

CB seems like it would shine against Threshold and in the Mirror. It seems weak against Goblins, Landstill, and other deck that you crush. So it may not be all that bad.

Thoughts?

EDIT:

About the Manabase. Mine is:

4 Delta
3 Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Volc

I need to fit one plains in there - Wasteland is too big in my meta. I'm thinking of cutting 1 Delta and adding a single plains. Otherwise I'll cut the Scrubland.

[Dark_Cynic87]

It (read: SDTop) seems to take away from the M. Tutor-->Wipe Away I seem to need against CounterTop, MM, Gaddock Teeg, etc., not to mention like you said, Wraith against mirror and etc. has always been a great back-up plan...I do like the blue quasi-Demonic thing w/out the life-loss, I'll test also.

Also, double-top can be a storm-builder, paying 1 per storm...

It's easier for counters/Needles to shut you down without cycling.

Note: Went to the prerelease in Denver, and tore up the only 2 other legacy players there that I saw...Played against Fish and MBA, Went off turn 2 all 3 games (had to leave after game 1 against fish). The MBA player said it's not fun to not get to play anything (I played through a Hymn, though. Luck-ish, as he missed my Tutor), the fish player kept a hand without disruption. I got lucky against Fish as I Abeyanced turn 2 (baiting), and topdecked an Infernal off the cantrip effect ftw. Otherwise I would have had quite a hard time winning, as his hand was double-Meddling Mage. Yikes.

Got a Russian Wipe Away...eh.

Pce,

--DC

[jjjoness']

I did a few test games with Top maindeck (-4 Wraith + 3 Top + 1 Ponder) and actually you're right emidln:top does not keep you from comboing off.
But I feel it makes the deck a bit slower, for it costs a lot of Mana. But it's pretty useful against controlish decks, baiting counters and helping to get multiple Chants/acceleration. But against aggro I think they slow you down a lot , I lost a some games to MonoG stompy, just because I wasn't able to combo off on turn 3 (actually I had no chants to timewalk him). Against Fastcombo fee l like it doesn't matter, you really want to keep your mana for Chant in the early game, and later you have to the mana and time to use Top.
So said, I only did few games, but I'm gonna test it again and again, but now I think in a more controlish meta SDT instead of Wraith could be a really good option.
Let's see if later testgames will tell the same.

[emidln]

It (read: SDTop) seems to take away from the M. Tutor-->Wipe Away I seem to need against CounterTop, MM, Gaddock Teeg

How? SDT is a 1cc artifact that lets you manipulate the top of your library. Mystical tutor is a 1cc instant that puts stuff on top of your library. Wipe Away is a 3cc solution to hate. The only way these interact that doesn't result from the pilot being completely deficient is when you use SDT to draw Wipe Away after Mystical Tutor, when you use SDT to hide Wipe Away from discard until you're ready to go off, and when you Wipe Away SDT to build storm. The only way that it can harm you is when you make a mistake of activating top and hide Wipe Away out of your reach. That isn't a flaw in the design of the deck, just the skill of the player.


It's easier for counters/Needles to shut you down without cycling.

Seriously? Street Wraith's cycling ability (like all cycling abilities) is an activated ability and very Pithing Needle-able if your opponent is that inclined. I've had it happen to me in testing vs competent opponents.

[Mental]

So I did a quick CC count for Counterbalance. We've got plenty of 1 drops, but only 11 3 Drops post board, assuming the only thing brought in was 3 Balances. So meh. It could be decent, but I don't love it.

[emidln]

The goal of a sb CB would be to give you infinite time to setup vs Thresh. This means you need more 1 drops than two drops. (Goose is the only creature they play that you can't Wipe Away, which should also be coming in.) The major issue is that the current Thresh lists don't provide a good reason for sacrificing the sideboard space. (Thresh is already a good matchup.)

[GreenOne]

So I did a quick CC count for Counterbalance. We've got plenty of 1 drops, but only 11 3 Drops post board, assuming the only thing brought in was 3 Balances. So meh. It could be decent, but I don't love it.

Well, I'd love CB in a storm combo deck, but I doubt this thing will be possible.

However, unlike thresh we can Mystical Tutor for 2 (IT) and 3 CC (Wipe Away) :wink:

[Mental]

Well, I'd love CB in a storm combo deck, but I doubt this thing will be possible.

However, unlike thresh we can Mystical Tutor for 2 (IT) and 3 CC (Wipe Away) :wink:

Yeah, it doesn't seem bad on principle, but like EmidIn said, it's probably overkill. Still, running it could allow us to take out a few other anti-thresh cards and focus on other matches. Also, the bluff would be EPIC.

[WiLdFiRe]

Yeah, it doesn't seem bad on principle, but like EmidIn said, it's probably overkill. Still, running it could allow us to take out a few other anti-thresh cards and focus on other matches. Also, the bluff would be EPIC.

You do realise that this deck is basically Threshold with a combo finish anyway?

[Mental]

You do realise that this deck is basically Threshold with a combo finish anyway?

Not really. It sets up like Threshold and plays LIKE it, but it actually only runs 11 nonland cards that Threshold runs. It uses the strategy of cantriping to build storm/shape it's hand before going off/find answers, but that doesn't mean it can support every card that's played in Threshold. Though it probably could support Counterbalance.

[WiLdFiRe]

Not really. It sets up like Threshold and plays LIKE it, but it actually only runs 11 nonland cards that Threshold runs. It uses the strategy of cantriping to build storm/shape it's hand before going off/find answers, but that doesn't mean it can support every card that's played in Threshold. Though it probably could support Counterbalance.

This deck's basic gameplan and Thresh's are very similar - Thresh drops a cheap fat creature and protects it to victory, while this deck just goes straight for the throat in a quicker kill, with less protection. Each has it's pro's and cons but I would argue that it's the same basic shell at the lowest level.

[Mental]

This deck's basic gameplan and Thresh's are very similar - Thresh drops a cheap fat creature and protects it to victory, while this deck just goes straight for the throat in a quicker kill, with less protection. Each has it's pro's and cons but I would argue that it's the same basic shell at the lowest level.

As I said, this deck and Thresh set up the same way and both protect their kill. Shit man, half the decks in Magic Protect their kill. That doesn't make them Threshold - this deck doesn't protect it's kill in the same way Thresh does. But I guess the strategy of very few lands and cantrips does draw comparisons, and I won't hesitate to say that this is the Threshold of storm decks. But you are correct that at the most basic level, this deck and Threshold have the same gameplan - Set up with Cantrips, kill with Protection. The next part of Thresh's plan - playing undercosted beats - obviously does not manifest in this deck. So yes, you are right that at the most basic level this deck is Threshold.

[BreathWeapon]

As an aside, have people tested running 4 Slithermuse as sort of a Draw 7/4 style threat to ramp up Threshold for Cabal Ritual and go off with Tendrils of Agony? Even as a one of, hitting Infernal + LED on the first turn for a one sided, 7 card windfall + Threshold is pretty fucking nuts, that card seems really underutilized in here.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

As an aside, have people tested running 4 Slithermuse as sort of a Draw 7/4 style threat to ramp up Threshold for Cabal Ritual and go off with Tendrils of Agony?Why would an unreliable draw four for one more mana be better then anything currently run?

[Arsenal]

Slithermuse can net more than 4 cards, no loss of life, and at a semi-easier mana combination. But you are right, it's unreliable.

[Brehn]

Mid-Combo:
Draw 4s draw 4. Life loss doesn't matter because you should be winning.
Slithermuse is unreliable.

Setup:
Draw 4s are huge as a setup card. This is where I use them most frequently.
Slithermuse sucks as a setup card. When you're setting up, your hand should contain 4-7 cards. 3U - maybe draw 2 is bad.

Recovery after failed combo attempt:
Here Slithermuse is better - in some situations. If your opponent has FoWed you don't draw more than 5. Too unreliable, although the life loss of Draw 4s hurts most in this situation.

Conclusion: Not a chance.

[BreathWeapon]

It's still a solid Infernal Tutor/Death Wish target, I've been hitting turn 1/2 wins off of it quite a bit.

[nodahero]

It is not a SOLID target. If you dont want the life loss run fricken meditate... Dont run that horrid creature. The only time I see it being even remotely decent is midcombo where it would net about 4 cards prolly (assumeing you try turn 2 on the play; less if you try later) in which case Meditate is simply cheaper. Plus you oppoent could royally screw you up if they simply stifle its effect preventing the shot at double tendrils do to lack of cards in your hand or they could simply empty there hand though things such as swordsing it and extirpating cards from your yard.

Simply put the card is to unreliable to be very abusive.

[BreathWeapon]

It is not a SOLID target. If you dont want the life loss run fricken meditate... Dont run that horrid creature. The only time I see it being even remotely decent is midcombo where it would net about 4 cards prolly (assumeing you try turn 2 on the play; less if you try later) in which case Meditate is simply cheaper. Plus you oppoent could royally screw you up if they simply stifle its effect preventing the shot at double tendrils do to lack of cards in your hand or they could simply empty there hand though things such as swordsing it and extirpating cards from your yard.

Simply put the card is to unreliable to be very abusive.

There's a difference between running it as a threat and running it as a tutor target, going off with it on turn 1 for a one sided Windfall is nothing short of ridiculous, Meditate isn't even comparable.

[b4r0n]

There's a difference between running it as a threat and running it as a tutor target, going off with it on turn 1 for a one sided Windfall is nothing short of ridiculous, Meditate isn't even comparable.

First of all, going off with Slithermuse on turn 1 is extremely unlikely. You need either land + Petal + Petal + Petal/Ritual + Slithermuse or land + Ritual + Infernal + LED. The first possibility is extremely unlikely, and the second possibility just seems like a waste of resources; spending a Ritual, an Infernal, an LED, and the rest of your hand to potentially draw a new set of 7 seems bad. Second, in order for Slithermuse to be better than Meditate, you would need your opponent to have 5 more cards in hand than you. In other words, they would need to have a full grip if you have as many as two cards in hand... again, the likelihood of this happening is extremely slim. In any other situation, Meditate will probably be as good as, if not better, than Slithermuse in terms of drawing you cards. And you don't see people running Meditate.

Basically, what you're saying doesn't make any sense. I don't understand how you see the two cards as serving completely different purposes. And I don't understand why you would think that Slithermuse is at all necessary in this deck.

[GGoober]

I think Slithermuse is not fitting at all to this deck. If you really wanted to abuse card advantage, I might as well have wished for Diminishing Returns which draws you SEVEN consistently (although it is bad as a wish target itself, requiring 2UU).

Just curious, but has anyone come up with a list running Manamorphose?

This card just seems too good in Storm to ignore. It also fixes our mana pool and may work great with Mystical Tutor, acting like Street Wraith 6-8 under the condition we have two mana. The only problem will be the R mana cost (I don't think we will ever use G, but for people running ETW, it might be possible to pull off R consistently. Lotus petal perhaps may do the job?)

[emidln]

I think Slithermuse is not fitting at all to this deck. If you really wanted to abuse card advantage, I might as well have wished for Diminishing Returns which draws you SEVEN consistently (although it is bad as a wish target itself, requiring 2UU).

Just curious, but has anyone come up with a list running Manamorphose?

This card just seems too good in Storm to ignore. It also fixes our mana pool and may work great with Mystical Tutor, acting like Street Wraith 6-8 under the condition we have two mana. The only problem will be the R mana cost (I don't think we will ever use G, but for people running ETW, it might be possible to pull off R consistently. Lotus petal perhaps may do the job?)

That card is fucking terrible in FT for rather obvious reasons. We cut SW for Top anyway.

[Mental]

That card is fucking terrible in FT for rather obvious reasons. We cut SW for Top anyway.

In some metas.

That aside, Muse is terrible in all of them. It's almost always strictly worse than a Draw4 or even, hell, Diminishing Returns. And we all know who the only one to support that cards inclusion was...

@Manamorphase: It's alright in this deck, I guess. The problem is, A) Red Sucks, B) Street Wraith is generally better. That's just how it looks for me.

[emidln]

In some metas.

Wrong. In no metagame would you ever want a card that costs red mana to give you red mana when red mana is not a primary color. You never need multiple red mana. The same is true for green. As a cantrip, I can think of at least 50 cards that do something more relevant than this, and we've recently played several of them (most current Sensei's Divining Top). I'm fairly convinced that the only playable red card is Pyroclasm at this point, and I've yet to see a matchup that plays both Mage and Teeg.

[Mental]

Wrong. In no metagame would you ever want a card that costs red mana to give you red mana when red mana is not a primary color. You never need multiple red mana. The same is true for green. As a cantrip, I can think of at least 50 cards that do something more relevant than this, and we've recently played several of them (most current Sensei's Divining Top). I'm fairly convinced that the only playable red card is Pyroclasm at this point, and I've yet to see a matchup that plays both Mage and Teeg.

I was referring to Street Wraith vs. SDT. Not Manamorphase.

[Nihil Credo]

a card that costs red mana to give you red mana
Just in case you happened to read the card wrong, Manamorphose gives you *any* combination of colours, not just red and green. So you can turn 1R or 1G into BB, UB, or UU if needed.

[emidln]

Just in case you happened to read the card wrong, Manamorphose gives you *any* combination of colours, not just red and green. So you can turn 1R or 1G into BB, UB, or UU if needed.

The deck never needs to grab any combination of colors. Until you are ready to combo out, the deck requires only blue mana. When you combo, the deck needs an amount of white mana (found from up for four duals and up to four Lotus Petal) equal to the number of chant effects and a single black mana (if any black mana at all since it's fairly easy to combo out using LED and Top/Brainstorm/Ponder if you want to).

[Willoe]

Just fired the deck up at MWS and I goldfished the deck ten times on the play, every time killing on turn 3 (turn 3 is of course when MWS says "it is now turn 5"), and only one opening hand had a mulligan. This was pretty good, and I like the deck. However, are these goldfish kills too slow, or do I choose the wrong openings? What should a pretty good hand contain at the least?

And BTW, I've not used Empty the Warrens yet. Is this used against aggro decks as an emergency plan to build blockers while you assemble combo parts for your next takeoff with tendrils?

[GreenOne]

Just fired the deck up at MWS and I goldfished the deck ten times on the play, every time killing on turn 3, and only one opening hand had a mulligan. This was pretty good, and I like the deck. However, are these goldfish kills too slow, or do I choose the wrong openings? What should a pretty good hand contain at the least?

And BTW, I've not used Empty the Warrens yet. Is this used against aggro decks as an emergency plan to build blockers while you assemble combo parts for your next takeoff with tendrils?

Turn 3 is the standard for this deck, almost every hand can combo on turn 3, and on that turn you have a good number of Chant protected wins too.
Just goldfishing the deck a lot wil bring you to more turn 2s, as you will likely see better the win in your opening hands. I had the same problem at the beginning. It also depends on which version you are playing: if you're playing Sensei's Tops over Street Wraith you'll obv get slower hands with a better matchup against control.
The things I look for in an opening hand if I want to combo fast are:
- LED
- Infernal Tutors
- Dark rituals
Obviously Mystical tutor can get you IT and DR, so LED is the piece of acceleration I usally look for.
A general rule could be: if you have 2+ cantrips then your hand is likely to win on turn 3. If your hand contains a LED and an IT it's likely to win on turn 2.

ETW is almost always unnecessary in this deck, but it's a good threat if your oppo is unprepared to it (unlikely but possible). I use it vs Extirpate usually, when you can't Orim/Abeyance the opponent. It supports well the Aggro plan with Wraiths and Confidants too.

[b4r0n]

What's the best strategy for winning the mirror? Orim's Chant appears to be the key; ideally, it seems that you want to Chant them before going off in order to prevent them from Chanting you mid-combo. However, if they respond to your Chant with a Chant, then they can go off on their turn without interference. It seems like the matchup becomes a defensive stalemate, since the first player to play their Chant will likely lose. Do you play around Chant entirely by forgoing the combo and attempting to win with Street Wraith beats (assuming you're still running Wraiths and not Tops), or do you attempt to amass multiple Chants, allowing you multiple attempts at Chanting before going off? Or is there some other strategy that I'm missing entirely?

Post-board, I assume that Confidants (or Counterbalances?) come in. Is that correct? What do you board out?

[emidln]

What's the best strategy for winning the mirror? Orim's Chant appears to be the key; ideally, it seems that you want to Chant them before going off in order to prevent them from Chanting you mid-combo. However, if they respond to your Chant with a Chant, then they can go off on their turn without interference. It seems like the matchup becomes a defensive stalemate, since the first player to play their Chant will likely lose. Do you play around Chant entirely by forgoing the combo and attempting to win with Street Wraith beats (assuming you're still running Wraiths and not Tops), or do you attempt to amass multiple Chants, allowing you multiple attempts at Chanting before going off? Or is there some other strategy that I'm missing entirely?

Post-board, I assume that Confidants (or Counterbalances?) come in. Is that correct? What do you board out?

The mirror hinges entirely on Orim's Chant and Abeyance superiority. It goes roughly like this. Never, ever, ever cast Orim's Chant unless your opponent has mana floating. Ever. I mean it. Now with that said, bluffing/baiting comes into play. The easiest way to win the Chant superiority war is to Extirpate an opponent's Chants. The easiest way to get an opponent to play their Chants is to play your own Chant. However, if you don't actually win the game after your chant (assuming they don't play a chant, you're down a Chant). Also, if they respond with Chant, their optimal play on their upkeep (as they get priority first) is to Chant you. This prevents you from Extirpating their Chants (at least without them getting a protected turn) and they get the potential to go off on their turn. It's possible that they have an Extirpate of their own. If this is the case, you will lose your Chants. If they don't have a second Chant, then you actually still need a Chant because they could very possibly go off on their turn. Now, we need to factor in Abeyance, which is harder to extirpate and does the same thing as Chant making you need more chants. So, the rule becomes roughly:

Don't chant your opponent unless they are winning the game, or unless you can win the game/extirpate their chants and hold another Chant/Abeyance. If at all possible, win the game by casting Street Wraith or Dark Confidant then attacking with them.

To win game one safely without Street Wraith, you'll want to assemble a hand of roughly (in the Petal-less version) Chant, Extirpate, Death Wish, Infernal Tutor (with either enough LEDs on the table to win with it or extra rits in hand). Any extra Chants are helpful, but not strictly required. You need to Death Wish for Abeyance, then on your turn, lead with Abeyance. If it resolves, you win the game. If your opponent Chants you (much more likely) you Extirpate their Chants on their upkeep as soon as you get priority (they may not know about Extirpate or not have another Chant). If they chant you here, you Chant back. Then you should win on your turn barring an opponent who plays a 3/1 split of Abeyance. Obviously if they don't Chant you, you save the Chant for your turn.

To win game one safely with Street Wraith, wait until you make it to 7 mana sources (2 white sources) and then cast Street Wraith. (You need 7 because if your opponent eot Wipe Aways your Chant mana (which can happen with only 6 mana sources) you'll lose the game. Cast Chants against their ritual effects and their Chants. Death Wish -> Extirpate will probably be very strong if you have it available.

Postboard, do not board in ETW. The standard boarding should be to bring in any number of Extirpates, Chants, Abeyances, Confidants, and cards that can bounce multiple permanents (specifically Echoing Truth). 1x IGG, 1x Tendrils, 4x Dark Ritual, 1x Draw4 (debateable, but I don't like being in Confidant/SW range so early), and 1x Wipe Away.

Theoretically, CounterTop could provide superiority in the Chant wars, but I haven't been using it much lately because the combo mirror is the only place where it's really better than anything else.

Properly played, the mirror is entirely luck-based. The best advice past what I've given is "draw well".

[Willoe]

Just noticed something. I'm not gonna mention C h a n t, so people can (unless anyone else types c h a n t more times) press CTRL + F to search for c h a n t. It gave me 52 results on this page of the thread! :O That is an average of 17,33 INCLUDING my post where I haven't wrote C h a n t anywhere. Never mind, proceed:

By the way, the analysis of the Orim's wars: Do you always need Orim in opening hand? I see there's a lot of talk about it, but is it really necessary? (No, I'm not talking about taking it out of the deck, that would be a dumb thing to do)

[jjjoness']

Just noticed something. I'm not gonna mention C h a n t, so people can (unless anyone else types c h a n t more times) press CTRL + F to search for c h a n t. It gave me 52 results on this page of the thread! :O That is an average of 17,33 INCLUDING my post where I haven't wrote C h a n t anywhere. Never mind, proceed:

By the way, the analysis of the Orim's wars: Do you always need Orim in opening hand? I see there's a lot of talk about it, but is it really necessary? (No, I'm not talking about taking it out of the deck, that would be a dumb thing to do)
I think postboard you don't need any if you play against a deck, you don't need protection against. Preboard I think it depends on your metagame, if you know that there's a lot of control, you probably want to have chant, or at least some cantrip/tutor to get it. But if you're meta is rather consisting of aggro you could afford to hold a chantless hand, if it is fast enough to win before the aggro player kills you (which actually is almost every hand that isn't just crappy).
So chant isn't necessary but it's better to have it, and actually c h a n t is never really a dead card.

[metalhead]

I just have to say that it is lots of fun to win the mirror by chanting ur aponent while they have mana floating.


:tongue:

[Ray.N]

This is my current deck list.

1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

1 Wipe Away
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Orim's chant
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Contract
1 Extirpate
2 Sensei's Diving Top


SB:
4 Serenity
4 Dark Confidant
1 Death Wish
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Sudden Death
2 Abeyance

I haven't missed the Street Wraiths at all. The one spot I've been constantly changing is Extirpate, replacing it with more bounce and Death Wish at times. Death Wish has always been frustrating to me game 1 against most decks, which was why it was moved to the sideboard. Few decks main deck extirpate, but after Sideboarding I find it very helpful against thoughtseize->extirpate.

The Tops have been great for me in testing. Two seems likes the correct number; I operate fine without them, but they usually help smooth the deck out and are obviously synergistic with Mystical Tutor.

Extirpate has been O.K. so far. As I said, I'm constantly switching this spot, but sometimes Extirpate just turns out being a non-cantripping split second Sorcerous Sight.

All in all, I've been testing this deck for many games and so far love it. It's very powerful and I haven't really been truly disappointed with any part of it yet.

[emidln]

I highly suggest testing out Doomsday. I've been playing it over a Ponder, an IGG, or an Extirpate as a 1-of. It does really stupid things against hate and is far easier to mystical for than 2 rituals and another tutor.

[Jaiminho]

I've been using Lim-Dul's Vault since forever. Doomsday won't be useful to go off unless you already have protection in hand and it will usually require some other card investiment (unless maybe with 17 lands), while Lim-Dul's Vault will be castable basically anytime past turn 1 only by tapping two lands.

No one beside me has ever used LDV as a setup for 2 cards and I remember everyone was arguing that it's so rare to need to setup 2 or more cards that it isn't worth it. So, the decks wins without the need for that kind of setup. Then, why would we need Doomsday now?

EDIT - Corrected a silly grammar error.

[emidln]

I've been using Lim-Dul's Vault since forever. Doomsday won't be useful to go out unless you already have protection in hand and it will usually require some other card investiment (unless maybe with 17 lands), while Lim-Dul's Vault will be castable basically anytime past turn 1 only by tapping two lands.

No one beside me has ever used LDV as a setup for 2 cards and I remember everyone was arguing that it's so rare to need to setup 2 or more cards that it isn't worth it. So, the decks wins without the need for that kind of setup. Then, why would we need Doomsday now?

Doomsday doesn't actually require any other cards to win the game. Orim's Chant and Brainstorm/Ponder/Top are nice to have protection and to win that turn, but Doomsday doesn't really take anything else. Lim-Dul's Vault sets up 1-2 cards. Doomsday immediately wins the game turning the combo from 1-3 rituals, infernal tutor, chant to doomsday, chant. It seems that this is a significant difference. Perhaps the biggest play with Doomsday is setting up Double Tendrils immediately.

[Jaiminho]

So, would that 2nd IGG be needed at all now there's Doomsday?

[emidln]

So, would that 2nd IGG be needed at all now there's Doomsday?

Probably not required, although I'm keeping it currently because the easiest way to win the game is still Infernal Tutor + LED. Doomsday wins the game, but will normally require some amount of help from Brainstorm if it's to win that turn. Doomsday is also very life-dependent (a lot of the best stacks use Death Wish in addition to Doomsday or Doomsday twice). This lets you have different outs in individual situations, but I don't think it necessarily will relegate IGG #2 to worthless.

[arsenalpow]

So is doomsday a maindeck option or a death wish target?

[emidln]

So is doomsday a maindeck option or a death wish target?

I'm playing it main.

[ramanujan]

emidln, what are some of the more common doomsday stacks that you set up. What hate does the doomsday kill help against.

Thanks

[Jaiminho]

You can see some of usual Doomsday piles for FT here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9410).

Doomsday seems to be good for going off without using IGG at all while not having enough storm to kill with a single Tendrils which would take its place. You must protect yourself against counters and Stifle before casting Doomsday as you would do with Infernal Tutor. If you can afford to, you can stick a Chant in your pile so you get away from being Stifled if you didn't get rid of it before.

[GGoober]

Doomsday actually sounds fairly powerful. I think it would work in variants that use heavy Chanting and Duressing to protect the combo. Perhaps Duress/Chant--> Doomsday --> Streetwraith/brainstorm --> Win (need to find a good Doomsday stack that wins).

This sounds like an interesting idea to start a Doomsday Tendrils deck. Protect your combo with Duress/Chant and Doomsday into:

1 Careful Study
1 Infernal Tutor/LED depending if you already have LED/Infernal Tutor in your graveyard
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 ???

Draw the first card of the stack with a free Streetwraith or Careful Study/Brainstorm.

Keep IGG and LED/Infernal Tutor depending on what mana you have or what cards you have in hand.

Play IGG and get another 2 spells played, returning Careful Study (will draw to zero cards in deck) or Streetwraith to draw Tendrils.

Cast LED with IGG and win with Tendrils.

I might start a thread in the New and Developing Section for this decklist. It's pretty strong, but it depends heavily on protecting the combo, which makes it weaker than the current deck. But Doomsday is a possible inclusion, but not in this deck.

[Jaiminho]

This sounds like an interesting idea to start a Doomsday Tendrils deck. Protect your combo with Duress/Chant and Doomsday into:

1 Careful Study
1 Infernal Tutor/LED depending if you already have LED/Infernal Tutor in your graveyard
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 ???

You will no longer have a graveyard after casting Doomsday and I don't think you'd like to discard LED or IT to Careful Study, which is an awful card for any combo deck. Also, Duress isn't worth the inclusion, since Chant does whatever it does much better and it even gets to do more stuff (this has been discussed already).

[GGoober]

Ah yah! Damn, so Brainstorm over Careful Study, play the free LED-->IGG

Actually come to think about it: Doomsday removes the graveyard which IGG needs so I think it's possibly not that fitting in this deck. I guess we should scrap the idea. I'll still think about it though.

Yeah, running 3 Chants as usual, but with added Duresses if playing with the Doomsday version.

[Jaiminho]

The thing about Doomsday is that, after you cast it, you no longer need IGG. You use it so you can set up to 5 spells, which will sum up to 6 storm. Only in extreme situations you would need to stick IGG into your 5 card library so you could loop those few once and get enough lethal storm and, even then, you can win with zero cards in the graveyard.

Straight from the Doomsday Piles thread:


Cost/Requirements: 1BB + U/BBB Draw Spell that draws at least 3 (Brainstorm or a Draw4)
Effect: 8 Storm + Tendrils with just the stack (so excluding the draw spell, doomsday, accel, etc)
Stack:
LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
DW
IGG

I'm pretty much convinced that Doomsday is the most powerful thing that happened to this deck recently.

[GGoober]

I think IGG should be 2nd/3rd from the stack depending on your hand for consistency. You don't usually have the mana to draw 3 and Doomsday together (6cc). Streetwraith/Brainstorm helps and IGG allows for more consistent wins. I agree that Doomsday is a huge win in the deck, but it involves making the deck more resilient to hate i.e. running more Duress/Chant to protect it.

Hell, Doomsday with a crappy stack like 4 Stomping Slab also wins, so it's usually protecting and resolving Doomsday that signals the win. I think this deck is capable of pulling it off, although it involves more work on refining and tuning it to include Doomsday.

[Jaiminho]

Hell, Doomsday with a crappy stack like 4 Stomping Slab also wins, so it's usually protecting and resolving Doomsday that signals the win. I think this deck is capable of pulling it off, although it involves more work on refining and tuning it to include Doomsday.

Actually, Stomping Slab deals 0 or 7 damage. It doesn't say "for each card", but "if a card".

[emidln]

I think IGG should be 2nd/3rd from the stack depending on your hand for consistency. You don't usually have the mana to draw 3 and Doomsday together (6cc). Streetwraith/Brainstorm helps and IGG allows for more consistent wins. I agree that Doomsday is a huge win in the deck, but it involves making the deck more resilient to hate i.e. running more Duress/Chant to protect it.

Why would you turn a stack that costs 2BBBBU into a stack that costs 3BBBBBU? My pile is elegant and rather efficient at doing what it needs to do. That you can use any of your 12 rituals to accel into it is pretty solid which likely brings the cost down to around 2BBU or less (assuming just a single Dark Rit).

Playing Doomsday and drawing a card costs as little as BBB and at most BBBU. To draw four cards, as in some of my examples, you also need BBB to cast a draw4. Presumably, you would be intelligent enough to know when you have rituals to cast Doomsday and then a Draw4.


Hell, Doomsday with a crappy stack like 4 Stomping Slab also wins, so it's usually protecting and resolving Doomsday that signals the win. I think this deck is capable of pulling it off, although it involves more work on refining and tuning it to include Doomsday.

Why? Doomsday is a convenient bomb. The reason why it can work is that the deck isn't focused on using shitty cards that are worthless by themselves (e.g. Conjurer's Bauble, Stomping Slabs, Shelldock Isle, etc). The lone copy of Doomsday supports the Tendrils plan in the face of hate or when it is convenient. I've drawn Doomsday six times today, shuffled it away five times, and tutored for it twice. That's three castings in roughly 30 games. If you use the best tool for the job, that is likely how things will turn out. If you instead force yourself into using Doomsday, you will run into problems like MM on Doomsday being GG or stuffing your deck full of suboptimal cards just to make sure that you can win through various hate.


Actually come to think about it: Doomsday removes the graveyard which IGG needs so I think it's possibly not that fitting in this deck. I guess we should scrap the idea. I'll still think about it though.

Honestly? IGG is fine as long as you properly construct your Doomsday pile with regards to your hand. This takes very little brainpower, but it is critical to playing FT. I don't see this as any different than knowing what to tutor for with Mystical Tutor.


I might start a thread in the New and Developing Section for this decklist. It's pretty strong, but it depends heavily on protecting the combo, which makes it weaker than the current deck. But Doomsday is a possible inclusion, but not in this deck.


WTF? You can't be serious about this. This deck finds and resolve Chant effects in the fact of control better than anything in existence. That's the reason why I've included the card.

Duress is also terrible. Don't play it. Play either Extirpate, Pact of Negation, or Abeyance if you need the need for extra protection past 4 Chant, 4 Mystical Tutor.

[TeKo]

Cost/Requirements: 1BB + U/BBB Draw Spell that draws at least 3 (Brainstorm or a Draw4)
Effect: 8 Storm + Tendrils with just the stack (so excluding the draw spell, doomsday, accel, etc)
Stack:
LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
DW
IGG

I don't understand the Cost: U/BBB is clear, but what are the 1BB for?

Stack:
LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
DW
IGG

Play Brainstorm 2 cards != LED/IT on top
play LED
play LED
play IT -> IGG
sacc LEDs for BBBBBB
play IGG (LED LED IT)
play LED
play LED
play IT -> Wish
sacc LEDs for BBBBBB
play DW -> Tendrils
play Tendrils (ah ok here you need 1, but not really B so the cost would be 2B + U/BBB right?)

= 20life
Or if you Stack Tendrils instead of Wish (for 18life) you only need 1B + U/BBB but if you combo in the turn you played Doomsday its still lethal.
Then you need something like this:

W(Chant)B(Ritual->Doomsday)U(Brainstorm)+(still more than 2 cards in Hand)1B(Tutor)+1(if you play with Death Wish) = 1(2)BBUW seems OK

[emidln]

I don't understand the Cost: U/BBB is clear, but what are the 1BB for?

Or if you Stack Tendrils instead of Wish (for 18life) you only need 1B + U/BBB but if you combo in the turn you played Doomsday its still lethal.
Then you need something like this:

W(Chant)B(Ritual->Doomsday)U(Brainstorm)+(still more than 2 cards in Hand)1B(Tutor)+1(if you play with Death Wish) = 1(2)BBUW seems OK

W + 1B + BBB + (U or BBB) would be correct with a Chant. I didn't figure chant into any of the costs. The Death Wish pile is actually correct at 2B as well. Thanks for catching that! Also, you technically need to be at 4 or more life to use Doomsday + Death Wish, although that seems irrelevant in most circumstances.

[TeKo]

The life shouldn't be a problem because you'll use Doomsday against "hate decks" right?
And most of them don't have a really fast clock or deal damage to them self like Staxx, so you dont have to use DW.

Do you still play your Petal-less build?
Do you get the mana for the combo easy enough, because against Staxx I had problems to get the mana I need (Duals wasted, fetched for Island and cant find fetchland or swamp)

[emidln]

The life shouldn't be a problem because you'll use Doomsday against "hate decks" right?
And most of them don't have a really fast clock or deal damage to them self like Staxx, so you dont have to use DW.

Do you still play your Petal-less build?
Do you get the mana for the combo easy enough, because against Staxx I had problems to get the mana I need (Duals wasted, fetched for Island and cant find fetchland or swamp)

My petal-less build plays 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Top, 8 fetches, 4 basics (2 Island, 1 Swamp, 1 Plains), 2 Tundra, 1 Scrubland, 2 Sea) with the additional sea and tundra as concessions to needing appropriate colors of mana. With 4 basics, I've had very little problem getting the mana I need. Stax has a tendency to play Chalice @ 0 anyway which renders Petal kinda bad. The only place that petal is really missed is vs Dragon Stompy, but I haven't played that matchup in forever.

I'll cast Doomsday whenever it is the easiest path to victory. It gets cast vs hate so much because it is usually the only path to victory in those scenarios. If I was holding something like double rit, chant, brainstorm, fetch, mystical on my opp's eot2, I would have no reservations about finding Doomsday and casting it ftw, but I don't force it when it's not convenient.

[Jaiminho]

I've always hated Petals against Stax, since it usually costs 3 to play and may delay my bounce or Serenity by an entire turn, which could be the difference between losing and winning.

Games 2 and 3 against Crypt/Leyline/Planar Void or whatever are easily winnable through Doomsday without having to fetch bounce or Abeyance. It's even faster. That's the sideboard hate I face the most.

[thefreakaccident]

This is the list I have been testing, I would like suggestions:

lands//14
1 badlands
1 volcanic island
1 underground sea
1 swamp
1 island
1 tundra
1 scrubland
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand

creatures//4
4 street wraith

spells//42
4 dark ritual
4 lion's eye diamond
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal

4 infernal tutor
4 mystical tutor
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 grim tutor

3 orim's chant
1 wipe away

2 ill-gotten gains
2 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens (I see lots of extirpate)



sideboard//
4 serenity (awesome tech, thanks emdlin!)
1 rushing river
1 echoing truth
1 extirpate
4 dark confidant
1 empty the warrens
2 abeyance
1 orim's chant


The only reason I run red is because I see lots of grave hate, and sometimes it is nice not to have to wait to just win the game... I will admit that I win with the warrens route very infrequently, but I cannot get myself to cut it from the list.


I think the deck plays better with the 11/10 split between cantrips and tutors, and being able to tutor for LED before combo is pretty sweet...

Please give me some suggestions.

I have been having a real tough time against discard as well, even with the tutorable power draw... perhaps there is another way to fix this?

[emidln]

I have been having a real tough time against discard as well, even with the tutorable power draw... perhaps there is another way to fix this?

Sensei's Divining Top over Street Wraith helps this immensely as does playing a singleton Draw4. You could probably get away with -4 SW, +3 Top, +1 Draw4 and not be any worse for wear.

[Mental]

I kind of like Doomsday in this deck, kinda don't. The pros seem to be that Doomsday is a great card if you can't set up LED/IT, and lets you go for Double Tendrils fast and easily. However, it seems to take away abit from the consistancy of the deck. Honestly, I don't love 3 cards that take you down to half your life and don't let you win that turn. However, I'm thinking that as of now, the pros outweigh the cons. I'll test it in place of a Ponder.