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georgjorge
12-03-2007, 02:57 PM
I've recently come upon this little gem...for reference: A 1/1 green creature for G that can sac a land to give any creature of yours Shroud.

While it's of course not an auto-include, I think there are some cards this is pretty good with...kind of like a green Mother of Runes without summoning sickness. I think it is especially good right now, with Goyfs running wild and people playing more removal than they did before to combat them.

I think above all, the Cephalid Breakfast archetype might be willing to play it, if only as Wish fodder. Think about it...if you have, say, three lands out, your opponent would need quite some removal to get rid of your combo - at least, it will eat more removal than a common Counterspell would do. In desperation, you can even target your Illusionist several times with it to fill your graveyard.

It is also pretty decent with...

Aether Vial - can be done on the second turn already

Dark Confidant - If you don't get rid of Sylvan first turn, you won't probably get rid of Confidant for the rest of the game

Mesmeric Fiend - I know, not heavily played, but I find them to be decent in Survival decks, where you have to watch your creature count

Magus of the Moon - Yes, you CAN float one white in response to Magus...


What do you think...could it possibly be included as a 2-of or even 3-of in some decks ? Are there other cards it could be decent with (besides, well, Tarmogoyf) ?

Nihil Credo
12-03-2007, 04:06 PM
I think whatever deck he gets played in, should run Equipment. Otherwise he wouldn't do enough on its - Mother of Runes rules the combat zone, while Olle Rade 'only' protects from spells/abilities. I like the idea of using him to protect bombs like Confidant and Magus.

Maybe a 'smarter' Gagomy? Being in an allied triad of colour, you could play enough basics to still exploit Magus (much like Flow Rock did in Extended).

Eldariel
12-03-2007, 05:23 PM
You could even consider Flow itself. But yea, you'd get to play Goyf too, along with the smaller beaters in the colours. It looks like a workable concept. Phyrexian Negator seems like he'd get along with Olle pretty well.

Tacosnape
12-03-2007, 05:37 PM
I can see this in Combo decks that involve a creature in the kill, but that's it.

Why would you want to play things to protect good creatures when you could just run more good creatures instead? Tarmogoyf may be the biggest badass in Legacy, but he's not the only badass in Legacy.

Sure, Sylvan Safekeeper + Tarmogoyf is an awesome thing to see. But if you don't have that Tarmogoyf in hand? That Safekeeper's going to blow ass. If this were, say, Mongoose + Tarmogoyf? Mongoose and Goyf beats for more damage, and if you just draw the Mongoose you still have a decent fighter on the board.

Plus, if that Goyf gets taken out by Thoughtseize, Force of Will, Spell Snare, or Engineered Explosives, you're going to wish that second card was a Mongoose or other similar beater and not a Safekeeper.

EDIT: For what it's worth, Mother of Runes has the ability a Safekeeper lacks to eternally chump block 3/4 of the format, Tarmogoyfs included. And in my opinion, Mother of Runes still sucks.

Eldariel
12-03-2007, 05:52 PM
I can see this in Combo decks that involve a creature in the kill, but that's it.

Why would you want to play things to protect good creatures when you could just run more good creatures instead? Tarmogoyf may be the biggest badass in Legacy, but he's not the only badass in Legacy.

Sure, Sylvan Safekeeper + Tarmogoyf is an awesome thing to see. But if you don't have that Tarmogoyf in hand? That Safekeeper's going to blow ass. If this were, say, Mongoose + Tarmogoyf? Mongoose and Goyf beats for more damage, and if you just draw the Mongoose you still have a decent fighter on the board.

Plus, if that Goyf gets taken out by Thoughtseize, Force of Will, Spell Snare, or Engineered Explosives, you're going to wish that second card was a Mongoose or other similar beater and not a Safekeeper.

EDIT: For what it's worth, Mother of Runes has the ability a Safekeeper lacks to eternally chump block 3/4 of the format, Tarmogoyfs included. And in my opinion, Mother of Runes still sucks.

I sort of disagree with you here. The format has lots of decks that rely on spot removal to deal with problem creatures (a living Confidant is no more pleasant than a living Goyf) and if you pack a deckful of those problem creatures and combine them with a creature that prevents people from destroying any of them, you can profit. Sure, it costs lands, but lands tend to be an excessive resource in BG Suicide-style decks curving out at 2/3 anyways. It looks very powerful against any sort of aggro/control; as long as you have enough powerful creatures (or discard) to fight through their counters, they can't really afford to have a Safekeeper sticking.

spirit of the wretch
12-04-2007, 09:02 AM
The Safekeeper was played as a one-of in Welder Survival builds (ahhh, the days of yore... =), where it protected the Welder and the fat artifacts. I can't see him beeing played in another deck, because he basically is a Mother of Runes with a drawback.

georgjorge
12-04-2007, 12:51 PM
I kinda like the idea of Equipment...

Regarding the question if the slot weren't better dedicated to another good creature instead of protecting the ones already in the deck: I think it depends on the number of creatures in your deck. Sure, if you ONLY run 4 Goyf and 4 Werebear, it's better to play 4 additional Mongoose than 4 Safekeeper. But if you run, say, 16+ good creatures already, having Safekeeper and nothing to protect isn't likely to happen. And in that case, it has certain advantages over another creature:
a) needing MULTIPLE spot removal to be dealt with
b) depending on the goal of your deck, there may not always be another competitive creature to add. For example, in Bg Green Death, after Negator, Shade, Goyf and Confidant, there aren't many more creatures that fit in the deck for me. Same for RG beats, for example...after playing 4 of the staple creatures, you sometimes run out of quality beats.

Cavius The Great
12-04-2007, 01:39 PM
I've always liked Sylvan Safekeeper. I run him in my B/G Sengir Autocrat/Delraich deck. It's able to protect either Delraich or Sengir Autocrat from StPs which is why I run them. I've always thought the card had potential when they first printed the card but I'm not sure why it hasn't caught on.

hi-val
12-04-2007, 01:57 PM
It was played in Flash builds too, and I liked it over Benevolent Bodyguard. Nightmare hooked me up on the insane play of getting Razormane and Safekeeper against decks with stuff like Leylines or Fish.

Finn
12-04-2007, 03:01 PM
Another card that is great with Flagstones.

Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 02:17 PM
Another card that is great with Flagstones.

That idea makes me want to build a version of Angel Stompy with a splash of green for Safekeeper. :cool:

Arsenal
12-17-2007, 02:34 PM
How is this guy better than MoR? I guess you could save multiple creatures from being Bolted or whatever, but I don't think saccing 2-3 land to save your guys is the smart play, unless you're going to win the round on your next attack phase guaranteed. MoR > Safekeeper, and MoR doesn't see any play outside of Fish and D&T.

Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 03:09 PM
How is this guy better than MoR? I guess you could save multiple creatures from being Bolted or whatever, but I don't think saccing 2-3 land to save your guys is the smart play, unless you're going to win the round on your next attack phase guaranteed. MoR > Safekeeper, and MoR doesn't see any play outside of Fish and D&T.

Mother of Runes has summoning sickness and Sylvan Safekeeper is good with flagstones. Sylvan Safekeeper also fills the GY if you ever plan on playing Mystic Enforcer. Here is a sample list.

4 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Exalted Angel
4 Mystic Enforcer
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Werebear
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Birds of Paradise

4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Ancient Tomb

That's just an example. Maybe Finn can come up with a better list. :wink:

Finn
12-17-2007, 03:12 PM
You probably mean Fish and Angel Stompy. Death and Taxes is unlikely to have Mother of Runes in it.

But the Safekeeper is simply different (and a different color). Mother of Runes is clear and simple to use. Sylvan Safekeeper is a bit more combo-oriented. He can give you Threshold in a pinch or beef up a Terravore or Tarmo (try saccing Tree of Tales, Copy Artifact on Tree of Tales, and Dryad Arbor for some +4/+4 Tarmo fun). He makes some nice mana with Second Sunrise. Try vialing out Patron Wizard and then tapping him and the wizard in response to a spell on the stack for a double Daze (He is a Wizard!). The possibilities keep going, and I have not even discussed the benefits of his actual ability!

Edit: beat me to the punch. Cavius, make a thread and I will gladly run my mouth.

Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 06:56 PM
You probably mean Fish and Angel Stompy. Death and Taxes is unlikely to have Mother of Runes in it.

But the Safekeeper is simply different (and a different color). Mother of Runes is clear and simple to use. Sylvan Safekeeper is a bit more combo-oriented. He can give you Threshold in a pinch or beef up a Terravore or Tarmo (try saccing Tree of Tales, Copy Artifact on Tree of Tales, and Dryad Arbor for some +4/+4 Tarmo fun). He makes some nice mana with Second Sunrise. Try vialing out Patron Wizard and then tapping him and the wizard in response to a spell on the stack for a double Daze (He is a Wizard!). The possibilities keep going, and I have not even discussed the benefits of his actual ability!

Edit: beat me to the punch. Cavius, make a thread and I will gladly run my mouth.

Do you think my list really deserves it's own thread? I came up with the list in less than two minutes. :wink:

EDIT: Just thought of a name for the deck. W/G Threshold FTW. hehe. Maybe I should some how fit Terravore in here...

yugular
02-05-2014, 03:44 AM
I hope it's okay to necro such an old thread. But I was about to start a new thread with the same name and found this. I am relatively "noob" when it comes to Legacy and I have been pondering what role this card has.

So my question is:
Why this card sees some minor play as a 1-of in some decks? For example I have seen it in mainboard in GSZ decks and I even saw this in the SB of WGB Depths deck in modo daily: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/6683928 SebastianStueckl (3-1) Legacy Daily #6683928 on 02/02/2014

What purpose and role it fills in these kinds of decks? Thanks.

Barook
02-05-2014, 07:01 AM
What purpose and role it fills in these kinds of decks? Thanks.
Prevent your Marit Lage token from being killed with exile or bounce effects.

crow_mw
02-05-2014, 07:36 AM
This guy is considered a Mother of Runes, that can be GSZed for, or mom number five if you need it. Obviously cannot be used as liberally, but is active the turn it comes into play. Other than the aforementioned protection for Marit Lage token it is sided in (or tutored for) in non-depths lists to protect your hatebears.

FTW
02-05-2014, 10:19 AM
It's run as a 1-of only in decks with GSZ. MoM is summoning sick and not tutorable, whereas this is tutorable. It protects creatures, often more as a virtual shield instead of a real one. Opponent is not going to StP your guy if you can just sac a land to protect it. This forces the opponent to slow down and sandbag multiple removal while you beat face. But it will never replace MoM in the combat zone.

TsumiBand
02-05-2014, 10:58 AM
The Flagstones synergy has been mentioned -- with a minor addition on my part, I'd just like to remind that Flagstones of Trokair is Legendary, and that it no longer has quite the same implications as prior to the change in the Uniqueness Rule. I bring this up because the old argument against Flagstones was that multiples necessitated a huge tempo hit (both Plains you search for ETBT), but if we're solely talking about the ways in which it would interact with Sylvan Safekeeper, it bears mentioning that you would choose which instance of FoT stays in play when you play a second one. So not only does it not shank both copies when it ETB, but you aren't completely destroying your own plan by aggressively playing Flagstones to keep Safekeeper fed.

I was about to say that there are few advantages to giving shroud over protection, but it does occur to me that shroud is a blanket "counter" to being targeted whereas Mother of Runes is bound to a single color. So, in a situation where Mother of Runes is trying to protect An Important Creature against, say, Jund.dec or whatever -- it may work exactly one time against Abrupt Decay, but after it's been spent it cannot do anything about the incoming Lightning Bolt. Sylvan Safekeeper only requires a single activation to cover both bases (or at least, force a situation where the Jund player wonders if they can get another land off your side of the board by responding to SS's ability with the Bolt or another Instant). That's probably not the greatest example of the differences between the two cards, but it's apt -- if Safekeeper's ability resolves, the creature cannot be targeted whatsoever until end of turn. If Mother of Rune's ability resolves, the creature may be targeted by an off-color spell if one is available. All things being equal, I suspect Good Players will make Right Choices in all of these situations and will not create game-states which oppose their logical conclusions, so I don't want to wax too theoretical and create a bunch of 'what-if' scenarios. Maybe I'm just nuts but I cannot think of too many relevant targeted Sorcery removal spells that would prompt one to favor the Safekeeper in a situation of multi-color removal akin to the one I just described.

SirTylerGalt
02-05-2014, 11:19 AM
It's also pretty useful in Maverick to "machine-gun kill" the opponent with an unblocked Knight of the Reliquary (by sacrificing all your lands to boost it).

yugular
02-06-2014, 06:43 AM
Thanks for all the responses to my question. I had noticed it's playability with Depths combo but was wondering if that alone is enough reason to run the card.

TsumiBand
02-06-2014, 12:01 PM
It's also pretty useful in Maverick to "machine-gun kill" the opponent with an unblocked Knight of the Reliquary (by sacrificing all your lands to boost it).

Hah, that's funny actually. Too bad Safekeeper grants shroud and not the cursed Hexproof; I feel like there's a bad deck somewhere in there with Terravores, KotRs, Berserks, that Red Berserk that isn't very good, that other Red Berserk that isn't very good either...

SirTylerGalt
02-06-2014, 12:41 PM
Hah, that's funny actually. Too bad Safekeeper grants shroud and not the cursed Hexproof; I feel like there's a bad deck somewhere in there with Terravores, KotRs, Berserks, that Red Berserk that isn't very good, that other Red Berserk that isn't very good either...

You can sacrifice all your lands while keeping priority if you really want to boost KotR, since sacrificing a land is a cost :) Only problem with that approach, is that your opponent could respond with a StP when you sacrifice your last land, while all the abilities are still on the stack...

So a better approach would be to give hexproof to an unblocked KotR, then, once the ability has resolved, you sacrifice all your other lands, targeting the Safekeeper (keeping priority), for lethal damage :)

TsumiBand
02-06-2014, 02:42 PM
You can sacrifice all your lands while keeping priority if you really want to boost KotR, since sacrificing a land is a cost :) Only problem with that approach, is that your opponent could respond with a StP when you sacrifice your last land, while all the abilities are still on the stack...

So a better approach would be to give hexproof to an unblocked KotR, then, once the ability has resolved, you sacrifice all your other lands, targeting the Safekeeper (keeping priority), for lethal damage :)

No yeah I know you can just pay the cost X times where X is your land spells.

I just mean that if it were hexproof, you could build a deck against windmilling a Terravore/KotR/Goyf/whatever-else-grows-from-landses and then just try and old-school them out with a Berserk-Stompy/Tog approach. Get that KotR up to a 5/5 or 10/10, cast X spells that double its attack, and if they try to StP it? Fuck 'em, give it hexproof and make them puke their pants.

Alas SSafekeeper gives them shroud, so your pump spells would be countered on resolution, so this deck doesn't work at all. It wouldn't have been great in the first place, but it would have been funny as hell.

Totally unrelated, my favorite deck for a long time was ErnieGeddon and some arrangement with Terravore/Safekeeper/Flagstones/Knight of the Reliquary would just be funny as hell if it weren't for junk like TNN locking the board down. One big angry just won't get there no mo :(