[Deck] Burn [Archive] - Page 2

RoddyVR

01-23-2008, 10:17 AM

I've been trying to decide a couple of cards in my burn deck (browbeat, flamerift and needle drop mostly), and so have been goldfishing the deck a LOT (have a couple hours on train each day to waste anyway).
I would like to pick up some tips on how to do the actualy goldfishing better (ie the recording of it, and what i should be watching for). How should i count a turn 1 Mogg? as 1 damage or as 2-3?
Should i be recording how much damage i've done each turn or just keep track of which turn i hit 20 damage on?
Is it important to note when i have which creatures on the table, or when i played a Flamebreak?
How much should i count Price of Progress for? right now my deck doesnt actualy have them, (mostly because its easier to goldfish without them), but eventualy i will put them in, and i dont know how to count them.
At what turn should i just consider the goldfish a loss? turn 6? 7?

Should I consider 18/19 damage to the dome a win (assume a fetch or something)? or should I keep only counting the 20+ damage runs as wins.

So far most offten I get to 20 sure damage (that's without counting mogg/marauder attack damage) on turn 5, with a few on turn 4, but for the most part 20 damage on turn 4 is only doable if i count the creature attack damage (a turn 2 marauder attacking turn 3 "should hit" right?)

So far my conclusions are that Browbeat is a beating, with easily over 50 goldfishes i have yet to encounter the situation where getting 3 cards is worse then the 5 damage, and i dont think i'd mind a strait 5 for 3 spell. Granted, i only have 2 of them in the deck right now, but will take it up to 4 as soon as i get the other 2 in the mail and then do more testing to make sure the extras dont make it a worse card.

FlameRift is great as a 4 for 2, but its a little hard to test its (4 damage to self) side in goldfishing, so for now my conclusion for it is "goldfishing sais keep as 4 of, testing against decks needed to see if self damage is too much".

If you like 4damagefor2mana spells, Needle drop is for you. Almost litteraly a better version of FlameRift. With any of the 16 3for1s in your hand it becomes a 4for2 with almost no downside (not knowing what you'll draw to replace it with) and with an upside (going through your deck faster). Think about it: Flame rift = 1 card+2 mana+4 life spent to do 4 damage. Bolt+Needle drop= 1 card+2 mana spent to do 4 damage... Yes needle is NOT a 1drop, its realy a 2 or 3 drop depending on you're using to meet its requirement, and you cant use it if you're stuck on 1 land (unless you have mogg or riftbolt), but so far i'm loving it anyway.

At some point i will have to start testing against actual decks to see much Mogg Fanatic is a poor burn spell vs needed blocker, how many Flamebreaks i need (depends on # of creature decks), how much i like Flames of hte Blood Hand (depends on abundance of life gain), and much i'm missing by ignoring Magma Jet. But for now, using the wasted time on the train by goldfishing this thing seems like a good idea.

Curby

01-23-2008, 03:49 PM

So far my conclusions are that Browbeat is a beating, with easily over 50 goldfishes i have yet to encounter the situation where getting 3 cards is worse then the 5 damage, and i dont think i'd mind a strait 5 for 3 spell. Granted, i only have 2 of them in the deck right now, but will take it up to 4 as soon as i get the other 2 in the mail and then do more testing to make sure the extras dont make it a worse card.

5 damage for 3 mana is good (sure beats FotBH). 3 cards for 3 mana is good (sure beats Magma Jet's Scry). The problem is not being able to control which you get. That's why in general I prefer Magma Jet because while it doesn't do anything as well as Browbeat could, at least you can plan with it.

But wait! Giving them a choice is only a problem in the late game, as most opponents will just take the 5 and hope to race you unless they're under 6 life. So then it becomes a problem of when we can cast Browbeat... at the earliest on turn 3 barring Moxen and Spirit Guides. When we're hoping to win on turn 4-5, that's late enough for it to matter as giving them a choice near the fundamental turn is much worse than giving them a choice when they're still feeling comfortable at 14-17 life.

In other words, Browbeat should fit in much better in accelerated decks, but it is quite a gamble in the late game.

Using Meathooks I actually won a game against burn when he tapped out to cast Browbeat in the late game. I would kill him with my hive if he didn't do the job first, so it was critical. He had a hand and I had a lone counterspell, but I figured it doesn't matter to draw cards at the fundamental turn if you can't cast them, so I saved my counter for the chance that he had or would draw a Fireblast in hand (at 3 tapped lands, he couldn't cast 2 anyway (though I guess he could have drawn a Mountain and a Fireblast)). If that spell was guaranteed to deal damage, he could have baited my counter then Fireblasted for the win.

If you like 4damagefor2mana spells, Needle drop is for you. Almost litteraly a better version of FlameRift. With any of the 16 3for1s in your hand it becomes a 4for2 with almost no downside (not knowing what you'll draw to replace it with) and with an upside (going through your deck faster). Think about it: Flame rift = 1 card+2 mana+4 life spent to do 4 damage. Bolt+Needle drop= 1 card+2 mana spent to do 4 damage... Yes needle is NOT a 1drop, its realy a 2 or 3 drop depending on you're using to meet its requirement, and you cant use it if you're stuck on 1 land (unless you have mogg or riftbolt), but so far i'm loving it anyway.

This is only true when you're guaranteed to topdeck a 3-for-1 bolt, and apparently you're not even running Magma Jets so it's difficult to set that up. I'd still rather run Needle Drop over Baubles, but I'm not sure that it's worth it because I'm usually strapped for mana. I'm still tweaking my manabase, and think I'd rather go with a couple Shard Volleys instead of Needle Drops if it turns out I can afford the extra strain on the lands. I'm currently planning 6x 3-drops and 2 Shard Volleys, and am running 20 lands.

I'm going to a small tourney this week with a burn deck with 4 Marauders... it'll be interesting to see how you do with 8 critters maindeck. I think the consensus a few pages ago was that Fanatic alone is superior in an Ichorid-heavy meta, Marauders alone is otherwise superior if you're only going to run 4 guys, and 8 may be good at stalling the ground game in creature-heavy metas but you'll dilute your power as you'll draw less actual burn and they'll probably be blocking your ground forces. It may feel good killing Isamaru with your Fanatic, but if the point is to swing to the dome, you've just wasted a card on the groundgame instead of pushing your burn strategy. (In this situation Fanatic and Marauders are mostly doing the job of Ensnaring Bridge.)

Incidentally, we keep talking about the need for recurring damage sources... I'll let the Cursed Scroll and Ankh go but I'm rather enjoying having a couple of maindeck Sulfuric Vortexes right now. It's 1RR that is just about guaranteed to hit for 2 and often hits for 4+. It gets around most Counterbalances, Chalices, and Spell Snare. Not many people play a lot of life gain, and not many people have maindeck disenchant effects. Ideally, you enjoy the extra reach it gives you in game 1 and just side it out in games 2+3. If they use life gain and have Disenchants in the side, well just hope that you've gotten game 1 and you just need to pull off one more out of two games. :tongue:

Post-Morningtide List: www.curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm Leaving Incinerate behind might be a problem if I'm hoping to use Boseiju. This might work though, because 17 Mountains and 3 Rings provides more of a threat than 18 basic mountains, Rings can be sacced to Volley, and Volley helps Ring get Thresh. Danger of cool things, or meaningful synergies?

zulander

01-23-2008, 04:52 PM

Has anyone tried a black splash with confidants? He's so amazing late game and helps you draw throught those land clumps. Black also gives you thoughtseize in the board.

Wallace

01-23-2008, 05:36 PM

Has anyone tried a black splash with confidants? He's so amazing late game and helps you draw throught those land clumps. Black also gives you thoughtseize in the board.

Yes I have tested Bob, he dies to all the removal that your opponent can't use on the rest of yuor deck and he's a bad top deck late game. Same goes for Needle Drop, I love the card but it has no place in str8 burn. I run it in Goyf Sligh but I have creatures to back it up.

Curby

01-23-2008, 06:44 PM

Yes I have tested Bob, he dies to all the removal that your opponent can't use on the rest of yuor deck and he's a bad top deck late game. Same goes for Needle Drop, I love the card but it has no place in str8 burn. I run it in Goyf Sligh but I have creatures to back it up.

Did you mean that Needle Drop is a bad topdeck? Could you please explain this? Also, how is it better in Goyf Sligh? I know I poo-pooed it above but I'm trying to explain bauble-math to myself to further understand it.

When used as burn, it's bad because it will replace a more powerful burn spell, assuming that you're already running the most efficient burn. However if you're treating it as a deck-thinner because we don't have enough "good burn," is it so horrible? Cantrip analysis: Street Wraith is safe from counters, but actively hurts us (relevant with opposing aggro, Flamebreak, Flame Rift, etc.). Needle Drop furthers our plan (albeit by a tiny amount) but gets us our card instantly. Baubles hurt us by delaying our draw and being just as vulnerable to Counterbalance/etc. as Needle Drop. In the end it seems that I would play Needle Drop as my cantrip of choice, if i were to go in that direction. The 1 mana is of little consequence because we're obviously not replacing 3-for-1 cards with Needle Drop, so the overall mana requirement for the deck stays about the same (casting Needle Drop and 2-drop compared to casting a 3-drop).

The top-deck analysis goes like this: the average card in a burn deck does a little over 2 damage (the average burn spell does 3+, and we've got roughly 40+ of them). When in late-game topdeck mode, let's examine the second card from the top. If you had Needle Drop on Mountain, you'd do a negligible amount of damage and draw and play the Mountain. For the second turn, we've said that the average card does 2+ damage. In two turns you see three cards and do 3+ damage. If it were Lightning Bolt on Mountain, in two turns you will have seen two cards, and dealt 3.

Now let's say that there's some power in the next-to-top card. If it's Needle Drop on Bolt, you'd end up dealing 4 damage now and 2ish-damage-on-average for the next turn. If it were a double Bolt, you'd do 6 damage over two turns.

Note that no other cantrip allows you to keep your damage up like Needle Drop does. The one damage might seem minuscule, but it lets us match the 3 and 6 damage that we've seen in the analysis above.

In the end, it seems that it can only increase the overall power of the deck. It may let you run a tighter list by avoiding some of the less efficient burn spells, thereby further increasing the 2ish average damage of your cards and simultaneously providing some damage itself unlike other cantrips. I think it could actually work quite well with Shard Volley and Barbarian Ring, by getting more cards in the yard and making use of any extra land we might draw. Also, wouldn't you rather hit their Bob with a Shard Volley than waste a Bolt on it?

EDIT: Whoops, you (probably) can't target your opp with NDrop if it's the only burn spell in your hand, so it is indeed a horrible topdeck. Sorry!

Wallace

01-23-2008, 07:10 PM

@ kirbysdl

All I was saying is, Burn plays off the top, a lot and when I need to draw a burn spell and rip a Needle drop or Bob insted...well you should get my point. I have run the black splash for bob and he never lived long enough to serve his perpose.

As far as Needle Drop in Goyf Sligh goes, you ather means of dealing dame in Sligh. Drawing a Needle Drop off the top isn't as bad for Sligh.

zulander

01-23-2008, 08:18 PM

Will countryside crusher have a spot in this deck?

Wallace

01-23-2008, 08:24 PM

Will countryside crusher have a spot in this deck?

No, for the same reason that every creature except for Mogg Fanatic and Keldon Marauders don't...IT'S BURN...creature don't fit well here.

Curby

01-23-2008, 08:28 PM

@ kirbysdl

when I need to draw a burn spell and rip a Needle drop or Bob insted...well you should get my point.

I guess I kinda don't. Bob helps you next turn, Bauble helps you next turn, Needle Drop not only damages them now but replaces itself now. When you draw a Needle Drop, you aren't really drawing a Needle Drop. Think of it as getting a mini Leyline of Lightning before you draw your "real" card for the turn, which is more likely to be higher quality than in a Needle-less deck because you can concentrate on the best burn and run fewer land. This is something neither Bauble nor Wraith can do, at the expense of...

The only time I'd hate to top-deck a Needle Drop is if I don't have the mana to play both it and the spell I would have otherwise drawn at the same time (e.g. I have two Mountains, draw Needle Drop, and that fetches me a Flame Rift). Whether that happens a lot will require testing, but that's what I'll be doing this weekend: Updated list with Needle Drop (https://www.curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm)

Seriously, can someone please point out flaws in my logic? I've always been against Bauble builds but this really seems to work. Bauble builds were looked down upon because

(1) Baubles make mulligan decisions more difficult
(1a) A hand with Baubles but no land is at best a Time Walk for the opponent
(2) Baubles don't replace themselves immediately
(3) Baubling into a bauble sucks (see 2)
(4) Topdecking a bauble sucks (see 2)
(5) Baubles don't really help your game plan besides cantripping (for Barbarian Ring)

With Needle Drop:

(1) You're only playing 4 cantrips, so opening hands are more "normal"
(1a) You're unlikely to have no turn-1 plays because of just 4 NDrops
(2) It replaces itself immediately and is an Instant
(3) As long as you have mana, feel free to chain NDrops at Instant speed with zero net card usage.
(4) If the NDrop wasn't there, you'd draw the next card anyway. Now it is there, so get 1 free damage and continue on your way
(5) NDrop deals damage while also helping Barbarian Ring

EDIT: Whoops, you (probably) can't target your opp with NDrop if it's the only burn spell in your hand, so it is indeed a horrible topdeck. Sorry!

No, for the same reason that every creature except for Mogg Fanatic and Keldon Marauders don't...IT'S BURN...creature don't fit well here.

Yup, our requirement for any critter is that it deal guaranteed damage, and even Mogg Fanatic is deemed too light (with its guaranteed one damage) for use in most builds/metas. Crusher, Ball Lightning, and Spark Elemental are all efficient, but they don't guarantee us anything even if they resolve. If you need to manage your topdeck (and you're right to be concerned about it), run Magma Jet.

Wallace

01-23-2008, 08:32 PM

I guess I kinda don't. Bob helps you next turn, Bauble helps you next turn, Needle Drop not only damages them now but replaces itself now. When you draw a Needle Drop, you aren't really drawing a Needle Drop. You're getting a mini Leyline of Lightning and drawing another card, which is in turn less likely to be a Mountain because your deck can run more threats, better threats, and fewer land. This is something neither Bauble nor Wraith can do, at the expense of...

The only time I'd hate to top-deck a Needle Drop is if I don't have the mana to play both it and the spell I would have otherwise drawn at the same time (e.g. I have two Mountains, draw Needle Drop, and that fetches me a Flame Rift). Whether that happens a lot will require testing, but that's what I'll be doing this weekend.

So you still don't get it...Say your opponent is at 2, you have no cards in your hand and need to draw a BURN spell. Off the top comes a Bob or a Needle Drop, you can't cast the Drop and Bob doesn't have haste so your opponent is still at 2. If you run a burn spell insted of Drop or Bob then your opponent is dead. I have moved away from running the Baubles for the same reason, at least with street wraith you can cycle it away and maybe hit a BURN spell now...get it now?

DragoFireheart

01-23-2008, 09:00 PM

So you still don't get it...Say your opponent is at 2, you have no cards in your hand and need to draw a BURN spell. Off the top comes a Bob or a Needle Drop, you can't cast the Drop and Bob doesn't have haste so your opponent is still at 2. If you run a burn spell insted of Drop or Bob then your opponent is dead. I have moved away from running the Baubles for the same reason, at least with street wraith you can cycle it away and maybe hit a BURN spell now...get it now?

I'm pretty sure that you can still cast needle drop if your opponent wasn't dealt damage this turn.

Sure, the damage part of the spell will fizzle, but you will still draw a card.

Curby

01-23-2008, 09:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that you can still cast needle drop if your opponent wasn't dealt damage this turn.

Sure, the damage part of the spell will fizzle, but you will still draw a card.

A-ha, I hadn't read the card thoroughly. You can't even attempt to play a spell unless your target is legal when you attempt to play it, and if the target becomes illegal the single-target spell will fizzle entirely. Sorry about that, NDrop is indeed a horrible topdeck. :frown:

LordEvilTeaCup

01-24-2008, 10:53 PM

I know you are all excited to see my latest burn list! *hears crickets in the background*

// Burn Deck
// Lands
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain

// Creatures
4 Keldon Marauders

// Spells
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Flamebreak
3 Flame Rift
3 Magma Jet

// Sideboard
4 Shatterering Spree
4 Flames of the Blood Hand
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flame Rift
1 Flamebreak
1 Thunderbolt

Keldon Marauders is underrated. I feel he should be played more often. Usually he nets me 5 damage, but if not its still guaranteed 2 damage. He has saved my ass so many times even when its just chumping a Goyf. I prefer him over Mogg, due to the higher damage potential. Thunderbolt and an extra Flame Rift is in the board to give me something to side out my PoP's against mono decks. I am not sure about Flames of the Blood Hand over Vortex, but I was thinking maybe too much self-inflicted damage with Rift. The life gaining prevention is not too important any right now, and I usually just use it to side in when Flamebreak is irrelevant.

Curby

01-25-2008, 01:33 AM

Interesting list, L.E.T.C. Is the Thunderbolt there cause it can hit big fliers? It misses Tombstalker and Exalted Angel, and will still only be a 1-of. I would think that Incinerate would be more generally useful.

I'm actually kinda jealous of you guys playing in developed metas. There's no way I can even think of putting PoP in my main because so few people here use nonbasics. In fact I'm actually considering taking it out of the side as well, though I know that's blasphemy.

I'm starting to wonder what more can be said of Burn that hasn't already. We use Fireblast and 16 bolts. Add Magma Jet, a set of creatures, and PoP. Sprinkle with Flame Rift and Flamebreak. The other 4 cards or so are just flavoring, and pretty much anything halfway decent can be used without really affecting the deck too much. Burn seems to generate a lot of posts without much progress (even when I'm not making a fool of myself). :tongue:

Anyway, has anyone tested Shard Volley? I just realized I won't be able to use it this weekend cause Morningtide's not yet legal. Stupid prereleases giving me interesting commons. :wink:

throst54

01-25-2008, 03:44 AM

Running 18 lands, im happy with 2 shard volley.
More volleys than that and you find yourself needing more lands, which sucks too much once you hit topdeck mode.

Curby

01-25-2008, 05:33 AM

@throst What are your 18 lands like?

I started at 18 basic Mountains as my only land along with 4 Fireblasts, and often felt strapped for more land. I'm now bringing in 3 Barbarian Rings and 2 Shard Volleys and going to 20 land total (removing a Mountain). I don't believe that this dilutes the deck too much because the new lands are threats (and smooth out the mana as a side effect). Note that you can sac Rings to Volleys! However, I go from having to sac 8 land to cast my deck to saccing 13 land with only the addition of 2 lands, so this may be still too tight. I won't get a serious chance to test until the weekend after this, when I go to a larger venue and can actually use Volleys.

I'm taking the following side into the very random meta this week. Any suggestions?

4 Price of Progress
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree
2 Boseiju (This slot is quite suspect... I'd rather run the above all as 4-ofs)
2 Pyroclasm (Lots of Tribal, lots of critters, perhaps this should be Cave-In though)
1 Dragon Claw (I wish I owned a couple more... Burn is pretty popular around here)

I'd love to be able to add Pithing Needles, but it's so hard to predict what will actually be useful... someone might show up with a powered legacy deck full of duals and fetches, or there might be 3 janky Elf decks. Of course, I could build my sideboard when I see who's there. :tongue:

LordEvilTeaCup

01-25-2008, 08:34 AM

Interesting list, L.E.T.C. Is the Thunderbolt there cause it can hit big fliers? It misses Tombstalker and Exalted Angel, and will still only be a 1-of. I would think that Incinerate would be more generally useful.

What! Where be my Incinerates at?!?!? Sorry, that was just a mistype. Like I said though, the one of Thunderbolt is to give me something extra to side out PoP when its a dead card.

Shawon

01-25-2008, 04:00 PM

ParkerLewis

01-25-2008, 05:06 PM

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but what are people's thoughts on Leyline of Lightning?

Granted, it's not very quick, but throughout a game, it probably deals more damage than a single Lava Spike. Perhaps 2 Leyline of Lightning might work out.

Sorry, but that's serious sh*t.
-if you don't have it in your opening hand, it's utterly useless. the definition of a dead card that you'll be unable to cast and won't do anything when you'll have cast it.

-if you have it in your opening hand, the effect is still incredibly bad. I don't want my bolts to turn into a 4 for 2, especially if i have to spend one card for it. You want me to use one card so that by spending 3 additional mana, i can do 3 damage ?? just give me the worst burn spell ever printed instead, it will be better than this !

YourShoesisWack

01-25-2008, 08:34 PM

Here's a list I just made

//LAND - 18
[4] Wooded Foothills
[4] Bloodstained Mire
[8] Mountain
[2] Barbarian Ring

//Creatures - 4
[4] Grim Lavamancer

//Spells - 38
[4] Fireblast
[4] Lightning Bolt
[4] Chain Lightning
[4] Lava Spike
[4] Rift Bolt
[4] Flame Rift
[4] Magma Jet
[4] Price of Progress
[4] Incinerate
[2] Fork

Deck Total - 60

//Sideboard
[4] Red Elemental Blast
[3] Pyroclasm
[4] Pyrostatic Pillar
[4] Tormod's Crypt

This isn't playtested, and I'm fairly new to legacy, I usually play extended.

Criticisms? Comments?

Is 4 Grim Lavamancer bad? I'm worried it just gives their removal an outlet as the only real permanent other than land that I'm running.

Fetchlands? They seem good for thinning as you only want to draw 2-3 land all game, but I don't see them in anyone else's lists really.

Thanks in advance.

LordEvilTeaCup

01-25-2008, 10:39 PM

@Yourshoe: Yeah, Grim Lavamancer is sub-optimal for the very same reason you provided. I would like to recommend Keldon Marauders in that slot. See how it works for you. About the fetches, I am not a big fan because it makes Goyf one bigger and the life loss adds up especially with the Flame Rifts. I hope this helps.

Curby

01-26-2008, 01:58 AM

About the fetches, I am not a big fan because it makes Goyf one bigger and the life loss adds up especially with the Flame Rifts. I hope this helps.

Also fetches give Stifle something to do, and 10 real lands in the deck against land destruction or Stax is horrible. Also, the thinning provided by fetches is negligible, because you'll only draw a few per game, and there's not much difference between a 57- and a 60-card deck. Also, turns your $40 deck into a $150 deck. =P

Edit: Screw it all, I'm going in tomorrow with my incomplete burn deck. Wish me luck!

EDIT:

7 players, double elimination. 1 each of Mono-G Elves, Gb Elves, Burn, Angel Stompy(-ish) WW, Ichorid Combo, Kithkin WW, Random jank.
Maindeck was www.curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm with

+1 Mountain
-2 Barbarian Ring (don't own em yet)
-2 Shard Volley (not legal)
+3 Incinerate

Round 1 vs Gb Elves

First game was a lot of bolts. It ended up 11/5 with a bolt in hand. I did poor math and bolted him to 2, not realizing that with pumpers he could swing for the win on the following turn. Game 2 he lets a Keldon Marauders through (yeay!) and a Bolt+Bolt+Fireblast finish makes us even. I draw no sweepers. Game 3 starts with a Pyroclasm in hand but he's just making little tokens and crap so I'm not afraid. Bolts take it home.

Sided: +2 Pyroclasm, -2 Sulfuric Vortex (he had no life gain).
Result: zero losses after a 2-1 round

Round 2 vs Angel Stompy(-ish)

I'm matched up with my girlfriend playing a heavily pro-red deck with Jitte in the main and Worship in the side. In the first game Magma Jet lets me set up a nasty finish. On my last turn, Suspended Rift Bolt, Bolt, and Flame Rift takes it home. Game 2: I decide not to side in the Sprees, and Jitte eats my face. Game 3 it's down to 7/6. She has 3x 2/* pro-red guys on the board and no equipment, so I can survive one attack. Unfortunately I have 6 in the yard, 2 Mountains and 1 B-Ring in play, and two Flame Rifts in hand. A Mountain or Fireblast would have given me the game, but it's not meant to be. I go down to 1, draw Incinerate, and she wins at 3 life.

Sided: None
Result: one loss after a 1-2 round

Round 3 vs Ichorid

Great, I didn't expect any graveyard decks so I didn't pack Crypts. Now I'm one loss away from the end and facing a combo deck whose slowest goldfish equals my fastest. First game I get him to 9. I try to determine when's a good turn to cast Keldon Marauders, but I do it one turn too late, and can't remove Bridges in time. I guess the right answer is "cast the Marauders ASAP!" Second game I add Pyroclasms for his tokens and decide to try REBs to counter Breakthrough, but he pulls off the win with 3 life left.

Sided: +2 Pyroclasm, +4 REB (probably a mistake), -6 something
Result: Eliminated after a 0-2 round

Notes: I'm pretty sure Crypt would give me game against Ichorid, but I'm probably not going to add them just because it's the only grave-based deck in our meta. Plus, he has Needles in the side and a Spree+Crypt combo in the first 2 turns is anything but certain (22% without mulligans). If you have 3 land between your hand and in-play and 0-1 Fireblasts, cast Magma Jet early! You won't want to see any more land in that game.

The Land Problem Without Baubles, it's really hard to use Barbarian Ring. 7*3 is already lethal damage, and we don't have anything else but burn spells going into the yard. I'm hoping Shard Volleys can speed up my Thresh. I'd hate to use Needle Drop (bad card) to help Ring (suboptimal card). 19 Land is alright with my current curve, but I think 20 will be good when I add Rings and Volleys. It is still not recommended to keep a single-land hand. By dropping Mogg Fanatic we're down to 16 1-drops, and even if we draw 6 Bolts and a Mountain, we're doing damage too slowly to be able to pull off a win against any decent deck. Better to have 2 land to begin with and be able to cast Magma Jet to manage any possible future flood. My ideal game sees me drawing and dropping 3-4 land. Decks packing a lot of 3-drops like Flamebreak, FotBH and Browbeat will probably want to see even more.

Aside: My girlfriend went on to beat Ichorid 2-1 and take first in the tourney. Morningtide came out of the side to "win target game." Hurray!

Maëlig

01-29-2008, 04:29 AM

That's probably just a stupid idea of mine, but I thought of adding bosium strip after taking a look at the CaNG combo deck using it.
Granted, 3 mana to play and 3 more to activate is slow. That being said, you can then re-use all your burn spells, meaning you never run out of fuel (you can even start to do some board control if need be).
I guess the deck doesn't really want to give up speed though...

Curby

01-29-2008, 08:51 AM

Yeah, Bosium Strip has the same problem as Keldon Megaliths and Cursed Scroll in this deck. You need 3 land to activate your trick, and an average of 1 to play the spell you drew or play the spell in your grave. Getting all of this quickly enough is hard in a deck with no mana acceleration, few lands, and little library manipulation.

General question: How often do Flame Rifts bite you in the ass against fast aggro? 4 damage for 2 is good, but ouch. :tongue: A few folks on mtgsalvation are taking them out for less painful options, though they're necessarily slower. I think I'll keep my build rather suicidal, with Shard Volleys, Barbarian Rings, Flamebreaks, Flame Rifts, etc. I'll probably end up tying my matches and not advancing worth crap. :rolleyes:

josch

01-29-2008, 03:56 PM

Wallace

01-29-2008, 04:23 PM

I'd like to come back to the Needle Drop. You cant't throw it at your oponent just to draw the card, but there are other options.

It's an instant. You can wait and if he damages himself durig his turn your time has come. If he'll not do you the favour or you cant't just wait till the next turn comes just throw it at yourself. Just use a Barbarian Ring targert yourself with a Marauder or tap a Land for Mana without using it or maybe he'll do the job .....

What? Why would you target yourself with a Marauder and not target your opponent? Dealing damage to yourself just to draw a card seems like a bad idea, tap my Ring, take one, Needle Drop myself, take another one...2 damage and a :r: to draw a card...sounds like Street Wraith will do the same thing... O and I think that mana burn is loss of life not damage so burning for one won't work to well...

Curby

01-30-2008, 04:20 PM

I'm hoping to do some serious goldfishing with Burn to get an idea of how it acts, at least in the absence of disruption. This is mostly to test the interaction of my unusually high landcount (20) and the introduction of Shard Volley. I'll be tracking the following variables. Any suggestions?

Initial Hand
Starting Land
Starting Bolts
Mulligans

End of Game Analysis
Kill Turn
Lands Seen
Lands Scryed Away
Thresh Turn
Total in Yard
Overkill Damage (20 - opp's ending life)

I might also keep track of how often I scry away certain spells, but I'm probably already overanalyzing. =)

redmage

01-30-2008, 05:10 PM

I'm hoping to do some serious goldfishing with Burn to get an idea of how it acts, at least in the absence of disruption. Any suggestions?

A few extras that might be helpful to track would be...

1) Any card/s that prevent a turn 3 kill.
2) Any card/s that prevent a turn 4 kill.
3) Any card/s that solidify a turn 4 kill.

I might also keep track of how often I scry away certain spells, but I'm probably already overanalyzing. =)

It seems, to me, that keeping track of the spells you scry away would be more valuable than tracking the Overkill Damage.

Curby

01-30-2008, 05:35 PM

A few extras that might be helpful to track would be...

1) Any card/s that prevent a turn 3 kill.
2) Any card/s that prevent a turn 4 kill.
3) Any card/s that solidify a turn 4 kill.

It seems, to me, that keeping track of the spells you scry away would be more valuable than tracking the Overkill Damage.

I don't really understand what you mean by the first part. Since I'm not running anything like Ensnaring Bridge, what could prevent a kill? If you're talking about mana flood, that's already taken into consideration given the other variables. On the other hand, I'm pretty much always going to wish that everything that isn't a Lightning Bolt or Fireblast was a Lightning Bolt or Fireblast. Could you elaborate?

I guess the overkill thing is not strictly needed, but if for example the deck goldfishes to 19 regularly, it might be sufficient in a fetchland/suicide-heavy environment. For example, the missing point of damage was often mentioned in arguments against Magma Jet. Burn is sufficiently explosive that this is hard to evaluate, so I might just leave it off.

RoddyVR

01-30-2008, 07:21 PM

i've been goldfishing my build of burn a lot. and i have found it very helpfull to keep track of how much damage you've done on turns 3 and 4 even if its not yet 20.
it is amazing how many times its 18 or 19 damage on turn 4. also if you have fanatics or marauders, i would suggest keeping the attack damage seperate from the burn damage (so that a 04 wall turn 1 doesnt ruin your average). i've been keeping track of it on each turn (including turn 1) writing it as X+Y where X is the burn damage so far and Y is the attack damage (i run both moggs and marauders so there's quite a bit of attack damage some times). so i know that against decks that didnt block the first turn mogg or the marauders turn 4, i win on turn 4 (most of the time), but ones that would have blocked all attack damage, it tends to be turn 5.

redmage

01-30-2008, 09:03 PM

I don't really understand what you mean by the first part. Since I'm not running anything like Ensnaring Bridge, what could prevent a kill?

I guess it was a bit vague, and it can be difficult to use mere numbers for those types of observations. lol

While it's hard to be too specific (I don't know the list you're testing), I'll attempt to clarify.

There's the normal stuff like...
Are you getting clogged with 2+ Sweepers often?
Clogged with to many Shard Volley's/Fireblasts without enough lands to sac?
How often does 2+ of card "X" slow you down?

Then there's the more subtle things. Your idea that "I'm pretty much always going to wish that everything that isn't a Lightning Bolt or Fireblast was a Lightning Bolt or Fireblast." isn't too far off base, but there's more to it than just that. Which one would be better more often, Bolt or Blast?

Burn can win on turn 3. Look at your first 9-10 cards (+1 for every Wraith/Baubble seen) and there's usually at least one or two cards stopping you. These cards are our "necessary evils", and/or our "fillers" (Sweepers, Jets, Browbeats, Baubles, Wraiths, etc.) Would that Flamebreak have been a turn 3 win as a 3-for-1, or as a 4-for-2? Take note because ideally you want this ratio to be 50/50. If you notice a heavy slant you can tune the deck accordingly. Another issue is the "fillers" as a whole. Do most of your opening 9-10 cards contain 1-2 "stoppers", or 3-4+? If it's 3-4+ could you trim a few?

I guess the overkill thing is not strictly needed, but if for example the deck goldfishes to 19 regularly, it might be sufficient in a fetchland/suicide-heavy environment.

I don't see Overkill burn (>20) as much more than just a "for fun" stat, but I do agree that, if you're in a fetch heavy meta, you can likely take note of your "19 dmg wins".

Thehunter820

01-31-2008, 12:46 AM

What do you guys think about this deck?

Damage x34:
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Land x20:
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

Creatures x5:
Grim Lavamancer x2
Keldon Marauders x3

Draw x3:
Needle Drop x3

Btw, im putting in price of progress, just havent decided where at yet

Mental

01-31-2008, 01:26 AM

Howabout in place of the 3 Needle Drops? Needle Drop really isn't very strong in Legacy.

Jaiminho

01-31-2008, 01:27 AM

Drop the Lavamancers. They are the only real targets for creature removal (Marauders vanish too quickly to even count as one... maybe half) and are slow damage, since they will never get those 2 in the face of the opponent as soon as they are drawn.

Also, isn't 20 lands too much? /shrug on this, really.

Curby

01-31-2008, 06:03 AM

Burn Deck Goldfishing

30 Games with version 1/30/2008 (http://curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm)

0 1 2 3 4+ Avg
A Starting Land (2) (4) 12 9 9 2.53 (Avg includes mulled hands)
B Starting Bolts 3 8 12 5 2 1.83 (Bolts include Shard Volley)
C Mulligans 25 4 1 0.20

2,3 4 5 6 7+ Avg
D Kill Turn 16 11 1 2 4.63 (20 damage on this turn)
E Thresh Turn 13 14 2 1 4.70 (est. for reaching Thresh)
F Topdeck Turn 2 17 11 5.30 (est. for depleting hand)
G Lands Seen 2,13 5 6 3 1 3.93 (including those Scryed)
H Ideal Lands 0,20 10 3.33 (est. ideal for this hand)

0 1 2 3 4+ Avg
I Lands Scryed 24 4 2 0.27
J Lands Sacced 8 5 12 4 1 1.5

6- 7 8 9 10+ Avg
K Total in Yard 5 6 12 7 7.70 (After reaching 20 damage)

Game Phases

Early, turns 1-3: you've 1 or 2 land in play, and are constrained by available mana. Rift Bolts and Keldon Marauders are best dropped now.
Mid, turns 4-5: you've dropped 3-4 land, and are looking to end the game with sac-land spells. Rift Bolts and Marauders played now are too slow to participate in an ideal finish. Magma Jet is good here to set up a win.
Late, turns 6+: You're now in top-deck mode, and hopefully you have Thresh to sac Barbarian Ring for extra reach. Magma Jet is still nice here, but it is arguably too little too late. Against a good Legacy deck, you're already dead.

Land Count

I mull on 0,1, and 5+ land. I'm considering mulling on 4 lands too, because my 6+ turn kills ALL started with 4 lands. 1 starting Land is too risky... you really need land on your next two draws to maintain speed, and you can't even Magma Jet to land when you have 1. (If you have 4 land and a Magma Jet, you can count on Scrying away some land for more gas).

Going to 18 lands is too risky. If we take the number of starting Bolts as an indication, I'd be doubling the number of times I mull (from 6 (A) to 11 (B) in this batch of tests).

I will consider dropping to 19 lands. Our current average of 2.5 land in the starting hand (A) is just about perfect, but overall we're seeing a few more land than we'd like to (G).

There doesn't seem to be any hand where we want to see more than 4 land during the course of the game, and a little over 3 is usually the ideal number (H)*. Currently we're seeing too many land (G), and even more than we can Scry away (I). This supports the idea of dropping to 19 lands even though it makes the initial hands more risky.

* This value is just a guess, really.

Saccing Lands

We only sac an average of 1.5 lands per game (J), while we currently are seeing around 3.6 (G-I) lands per game. This indicates that going up to 3 Shard Volleys should be possible. The question remains whether to substitute a Shard Volley in for an Incinerate, or to drop a Land for another Incinerate. From the analysis above, the latter seems like a better first step.

Barbarian Ring, Thresh

(K) indicates the cards in the yard when lethal damage has been dealt.

Note that we usually expect to get Thresh (E) just after we'd already done lethal damage (D). At first glance this means Barb Ring is useless, but in real duels we can't expect every burn spell to be directed at the opponent, nor can we expect our Marauders to connect every time. Testing in a vacuum sucks...

Scryed Spells

I Scryed away 2x Keldon Marauders and 1x Shard Volley. The former because they're suboptimal when reaching for the quick kill (much like Rift Bolt), and the latter was during a mana-light game. I suspect I'd be less willing to Scry away Marauders during a real game.

Deck Speed

With all the self-damage that happens in Legacy, there's a good chance that this deck can actually goldfish half a turn faster than shown. I'll note how many turns it takes to get 18, 19, and 20 damage next time. (To be fair, disruption/blocking should add at least a turn to that value.)

Thehunter820

01-31-2008, 12:54 PM

Hmm how about this list?

Damage x37:
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Price of Progress

Land x20:
2 Barbarian Ring
16 Mountain

Creatures x7:
Street Wraith x4
Keldon Marauders x3

Curby

01-31-2008, 01:30 PM

Hmm how about this list?

Instead of posting lists, it may be simpler to discuss individual card choice ideas or deckbuilding philosophies. For example, I've been focusing on theory such as landcount and the interaction of Shard Volley and Barbarian Ring. After all:

We use Fireblast and 16 bolts. Add Magma Jet, a set of creatures, and PoP. Sprinkle with Flame Rift and Flamebreak. The other 4 cards or so are just flavoring, and pretty much anything halfway decent can be used without really affecting the deck too much.

After taking care of the must-haves, Burn is highly meta-dependent so it's difficult to look at a list without any explanation and then give useful feedback. Without further information, I'd say "Run my list (http://curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm)!" :smile:

EDIT: Won 1st out of 20 tonight in a 4-round Swiss tourney. I faced 2x Kithkin, 1x random Black Aggro, and 1x Faeries. After the tourney I beat a BU Isochron Scepter-based control deck with it, though I wish my matchups were more varied. I'm more seriously considering going to 19 land, but I wasn't terribly flooded. Cave-In is great (despite my own previous reservations). I surprised some opponents with fourth-turn kills.

I drew a 5-land hand once and mulled it. I drew a 0-land hand once and mulled it. I was once prevented from winning a game due to my own suicidal cards. I played every Shard Volley I drew with no negative repercussions. I never drew a single PoP in the games where I sided them in. Strangely enough, I never had to side in Shattering Spree (though I should have against the BU control deck, we were playing casually).

GiantGrowth

02-02-2008, 09:38 PM

[QUOTE=kirbysdl;204120]
my list (http://curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm)!" :smile:
QUOTE]

not sure if this is worth posting, but in your analysis, you say that blood moon hurts PoP, but I've heard several times that since blood moon doesn't say basic mountain, it makes them into non-basic mountains and PoP still deals damage for them.

Wallace

02-04-2008, 04:18 PM

[quote=kirbysdl;204120]
my list (http://curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm)!" :smile:
QUOTE]

not sure if this is worth posting, but in your analysis, you say that blood moon hurts PoP, but I've heard several times that since blood moon doesn't say basic mountain, it makes them into non-basic mountains and PoP still deals damage for them.

Blood Moon does nothing to Price of Progress, non-basics will still be non-basic Mountains...

Curby

02-04-2008, 06:00 PM

[quote=GiantGrowth;204776]

Blood Moon does nothing to Blood Moon, non-basics will still be non-basic Mountains...

Thanks, I changed it. Is there anyone else using Shard Volleys? I'm gonna try another round of goldfishing today or tomorrow, but others' results are always interesting!

Mpopo

02-04-2008, 07:54 PM

Please forgive the long first post, the final decklist is at the bottom, so you should just skip to that if you don't like reading.

Burn seems pretty viable to me. I think the bauble/street wraith build is completely the way to go also. Why? well, I just don't understand why you would play a 60 card burn deck when you could play a 48 card burn deck.

I'd like feedback on my build, and I'm going to run through choices too.

Draw/Thinning:
The viable choices are as follows
- Street Wraith
- Mishra's Bauble
- Urza's Bauble
- Needle Drop
- Fetchlands

In a build using any of these, I think the 8 Baubles and 4 Wraiths are auto-includes. I'm not sold on needle drop being efficient enough in legacy, and I'm unsure of how many fetches to include. My inclination is to go 4 Wooded Foothills and 4 Mire, but the damage could add up with the wraiths and potential inclusion of flame rift. Also, with fireblast as a auto-include and the potential of shard volley, mountains are pretty hot.

Creatures:
Viable choices
- Grim Lavamancer
- Keldon Marauders
- Mogg Fanatic
- Countryside Crusher

Lavamancer is probably bad because it will bait removal. Countryside Crusher has the same problem, and it probably belongs in a different deck with more acceleration. Also it kind of nerfs fireblast and shard volley.

Mogg Fanatic is not high-impact enough for my liking. In a deck not running the thinning my deck is trying to achieve, they might be viable, but the 1-3 damage they provide for R isn't high impact enough for my liking.

Keldon Marauders is the best include imo because they pretty much guarantee at least 2 dmg, potentially 5, so it will come down to whether or not there is room. This is the only creature I'd run in this deck.

3for1 Burn Spells

- Lightning Bolt
- Chain Lightning
- Lava Spike
- Rift Bolt
- Shard Volley

The first 4, as everyone already knows, are auto-includes. I really like Shard Volley, I think it just needs to be tested. I'm unsure the correct number as they're kind of mediocre to draw in multiples early and I'm obv running 4 fireblast.

Other Burn (I'm not including the vast amount of burn that exists besides these cards. If I'm missing something let me know, but the deck is hard-pressed for space when considering these cards and I don't think anything is viable beyond these.)

- Magma Jet
- Flame Rift
- Fireblast
- Incinerate
- Price of Progress

Through testing, magma jet is invaluable in a build w/o street wraiths and baubles. I don't know how great scry is though with all the card draw in the build I'm going for.

Flame rift is very good. Usually the life loss is manageable for the power of 4 for 2.

Fireblast is an auto-include

Incinerate isn't looking too great with the lack of space we have, I'd run Magma Jet over it.

Price of Progress is pretty meta-dependent. On the whole, it's pretty broken against good decks. That being said, if your meta has a lot of people that play with basic land, it can be dead. I don't like it mained sometimes solely because burn is all about efficiency and having 4x of a dead card game 1 is pretty awful. IMO this definitely belongs as a 4 of, not necessarily mained though

Other stuff
- Scroll Rack
- Schrap Blast + artifact lands if running scroll rack/Ankh
- Ankh of Mishra
- Sulfuric Vortex
- Fork

Scroll rack seems too slow

Schrap Blast is great, but running artifact lands is sketchy and contradicts w/price of progress. I'd be tempted to run it because of 8x bauble if running artifact red land, but I think it is on the whole not consistent enough.

If running SSGs and or Moxen, Ankh is good as a first turn drop with all the fetches in legacy, but our deck isn't, so it's a no-go

Sulfuric Vortex is very good, but the 3cc makes me personally dislike it.

Fork is very good, and up for debate. We'll see if there's space

Removal

- Pyroclasm
- Earthquake/Rolling Earthquake
- Flamebreak

These are all too slow IMO, especially with the inclusion of shard volley

All that being said, here's a list of auto-included cards, I'm shying away from fetches in this:

Speed [12]
4 Street Wraith
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

Burn [20]

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast

Land [16]

2 Barbarian Ring
14 Mountain

total [48]

The 12 remaining slots are difficult. I want to play Shard Volley because it just seems too efficient not to at least test, and I'm going to begin by testing it as a 4-of.

So with 8 Slots left, the main contenders are Magma Jet, Keldon Marauders, Incinerate, Flame Rift, Price of Progress, and Fork

Flame rift is powerful, and I really think it should be a 4-of here, so I'm adding that, leaving 4 slots.

I want to play fork, but a turn that involves fork requires at least 3 mana, and with the shard volleys/fireblast/generally low mana count the deck is running I'm not adding it. Maybe if Shard Volley tests poorly fork could go in as a 2-of.

Magma jet is an auto-include in the bauble-less version of the deck, and I think it honestly is a metagame call between Magma Jet and Price of Progress at this point. In a metagame with a lot of good players who have expensive decks, Price of Progress is one of our most broken additions, and my Meta is like that so I'm going to include it as a 4 -of. That being said I'm definitely testing just how much scry loses in a build like this, magma jet could definitely replace shard volley.

The Final List:

Speed [12]

4 Street Wraith
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

Pain [32]

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress

4 Fireblast
4 Shard Volley

Land [16]

2 Barbarian Ring
14 Mountain

Total [60]

I'm going to test this hard. I really want to determine Magma Jet's viability in a fast build like this, and find out the optimal number of Shard Volleys to play.(I have a feeling 4 is probably not the right amount, but they're too damn efficient for me to pass up at least testing, knahmean?)

I also just kind of guessed on the land, any input there (and in general) would be appreciated. I feel like some fetches could be nice. 2 Barb ring seems optimal though.

Also, SB advice would be cool. Obv Pyroblast as a 4 of, then some REBs, maybe pyrostatic pillars, I'm not too sure.

Wallace

02-04-2008, 08:10 PM

@ Mpopo

Welcome to the Source!!

I want you to keep in mind when reading this that I played almost that exact list a couple of months ago, minus the Morningtide. Now while drawing a bunch of free cards is sweet, you will be sealing your fate while doing so. What card does almost every deck play nowdays? If you couldn't guess it's Tarmogoyf and what does goyf love? A bunch of diffrent card types in the yard that what. You sholud ask Nightmare what happened when we he played against my build of this deck...Tell ya what i'll save ya the trouble, on his turn 2 he cast a 5/6 Tarmogoyf, with no cars in his yard!!! Thats right I went cycle Wraith, sac bauble and fetch. Turn 2 I cast a lightning Bolt and Lava Spike...thats Artifact, Creature, Instant sorcery and Land!!! Keep this in mind when testing, I only run the 4 Wraiths and they seem to work just fine, fetch lands are a good way to thin your deck out too...

I was also wondering how you planned on casting spells with this deck? Playing 4 Fireblast, 4 Shard and only 16 will greatly reduce your abality to cast spell the way you need to. Shard Volly really doesn't fit in burn.

Poron

02-04-2008, 08:21 PM

just 16 lands with 4 Shard Volley and 4 Fireblast?...I wouldn't run Shard Volley with Fireblast at all anyway...

Mpopo

02-04-2008, 08:46 PM

Alright so I just speed goldfished my list a bunch of times and the flaws became pretty apparent.

The deck dealt lethal burn damage turn 4-5 almost every time. That being said, the damage I was taking from wraith + flame rift + barb ring seemed like it was so much that the deck could have been called suicide red.

Shard volley@ 4 actually seemed better than worse most times, but when it was bad it was BAD, so I'm going to cut them or play them at 2.

Barbarian ring actually seems way less useful in this build than in the build I had without shard volley, baubles and wraiths. I very rarely had to use it to get a win on turn 5 or earlier, usually it was just paying for stuff and dealing me damage.

Flame rift seems really risky in this deck, especially seeing it in multiples, so I'm considering dropping it or running 2.

@ the tarmogoyf comment: you're probably more experienced at playing legacy than me and that's a very valid point, but if I'm on the play and going to win turn 4 most games, making their goyf big doesn't really seem like a huge problem. I like the speed baubles/wraiths add too much to drop them unless they singlehandedly make me auto-lose to turn 2 goyf consistently. I'm going to have to learn the hard way that you're right (which you probably are) by actually losing to goyf a lot to cut the baubles.

I think for right now I'm going to:

-2 shard volley
-2 flame rift

+ 4 Magma Jet

Wallace

02-04-2008, 08:53 PM

@ the tarmogoyf comment: you're probably more experienced at playing legacy than me and that's a very valid point, but if I'm on the play and going to win turn 4 most games, making their goyf big doesn't really seem like a huge problem. I like the speed baubles/wraiths add too much to drop them unless they singlehandedly make me auto-lose to turn 2 goyf consistently. I'm going to have to learn the hard way that you're right (which you probably are) by actually losing to goyf a lot to cut the baubles.

Ok so your opponent goes turn 2 Goyf and he's a 5/6, that puts you on a 3 to 4 turn clock with all the damage this deck does to its self. Now whats going to happen is yuor opponent will gain some life via Swordsing there own dude or the will counter one of your burn spells in which case you lost to that 5/6 Goyf. I understand what you want to do with this deck, I had the same thoughts, it doesn't work...take this from someone who has been playing burn or Goyf Slight at every event since Feb. off 2006, it's not gonna work...

Curby

02-05-2008, 01:31 AM

I think for right now I'm going to:

-2 shard volley
-2 flame rift

+ 4 Magma Jet

This doesn't seem like a good idea if you're still running 12+ Cyclers. The problem is you'll often Magma Jet into Cyclers, and then what do you do? Magma Jet is very underpowered as far as burn efficiency goes. The point of Magma Jet is to stack your deck, and you can't do that when you don't know what that Bauble *really* is.

It's the same problem with holding just baubles and burn on the draw. At best, it's a Time Walk for the opponent. At worst, you'll end up drawing more burn and giving them several turns. And the kicker? You've no idea which situation you're in until after you can't mulligan anymore.

Anyway, I think I might try my Rw Bauble Burn list with Lightning Helix to counter all the pain.

Parcher

02-05-2008, 11:04 AM

From Zach Hill at Star City:

"Imagine a hypothetical deck of forty Lightning Bolts and twenty Mountains. If you’re in the midgame and haven’t drawn an abnormal ratio of lands to spells, every draw step effectively counts as two points of damage. Every turn places your opponent, on average, two points closer to dead. If a Countryside Crusher magically materialized on the table, though, all of the sudden every turn yields you three damage instead of two in addition to the threat of the Crusher himself. This is substantial enough of a gain to me to warrant looking twice at. The significant difference is that if instead of building around trying to make the Crusher huge you put him into a fairly standard Red Deck Wins list, you’ve got yourself a tight little card advantage engine. Your opponent has to actually kill the Crusher to stop his inevitability, as opposed to merely finding a way to contain him, and by that point if you’ve milled a single land off the top you’ve gained effective card (and, according to the Philosophy of Fire, damage) advantage."

Bovinious

02-05-2008, 02:01 PM

I dont think he meant run it in Burn, he was just using that 40 Bolt deck to make the point that Crusher will only draw you more business and probably let you win faster (obviously). Also, Extended is generally a slower format so Crusher may be okay in Red Deck Wins but probably not in Legacy Burn.

Mooglar

02-05-2008, 02:19 PM

Jaiminho

02-05-2008, 02:22 PM

In that very same situation, casting a Countryside Crusher means that you are possibly delaying 9 damage for an entire turn. In Legacy, that might suck.

Things that might happen on the extra turn (keep in mind that it can't be cast before turn 3):
- Even those not-so-fast combo decks like Solidarity may seal the game then -- you won't even have mana to try for a REB or anything. You are out.
- A Counterbalance may hit the table -- no REBs again for nothing.God damn, Top may be on the table already!
- Crusher most surely will get owned by a lower cost removal spell.
- Et caetera.

When you may get owned next turn, you better try to own them this turn. Just some thoughts.

Wallace

02-05-2008, 03:18 PM

You shouldn't say no without trying him out, imo id rather drop him on turn 3 than a sulfuric vortex

For the eleventy-billionth time. other than Mogg Fanatic and Keldon Marauders, CREATURES DON'T BELONG IN BURN!!!! If you want to run C.S. Crusher than play Goyf Sligh or some other form of R/G beats...

redmage

02-05-2008, 05:52 PM

From Zach Hill at Star City:

I think you may have confused Zach's example with his suggestion. Yes, he mentions a "hypothetical deck of forty Lightning Bolts and twenty Mountains", however, he isn't suggesting adding Crusher to Burn.

He goes on to say:

From Zach Hill at Star City:
"The significant difference is that if instead of building around trying to make the Crusher huge you put him into a fairly standard Red Deck Wins list, you’ve got yourself a tight little card advantage engine."
Bolded by me.

Burn is not the same deck as "Red Deck Wins" (RDW). RDW relies on early/mid-game board superiority, and then splashes burn for reach. Burn relies on threat redundancy, and aspects like "Virtual Card Advantage" to eek out it's wins. Crusher gives a target to otherwise dead cards like Swords, Smother, etc.

The only place I see Crusher possibly fitting is in the SB (to bring in after opponents side out their dedicated creature kill); however, I don't see anything in my SB that I'd want to replace with it.

fallenphoenix

02-05-2008, 06:40 PM

From Zach Hill at Star City:[...]

Not only is this completely out of context, it's also greatly misunderstood.
He just states that CSC will eventually raise your threat density. His example of "Bolts" refers to the common conception of red cards, to swiftly deal damage.
He is not advising to run the card in Burn, as it obv would be awful..

Poron

02-07-2008, 10:33 PM

I'm a lover of Burn deck and these days I'm playing this list (and it's working very well)

1cc
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Mogg Fanatic (and no one will ever convince me to cut this for just 1 reason: it defends. It gives you turns when you need and his only presence simply STOPS Dark Confidant and other stuff to attack)

2cc
4x Magma Jet
2x Incinerate
3x Lightning Helix

3cc
4x Sulfuric Vortex/Flamebreak (difficoult daily choice)
4x Flames of the blood Hand (auto include, it's great)

6cc
4 Fireblast

Lands
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Windsweapt Heat
2x Plateau
10x Mountains

SB:
4x Pithing Needle
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Shattering Spree
3x Disenchant

White mana is never a problem and if you need Disenchant MB (and it happens) you just switch the 3 Helixs with 3 Disenchant and also in the first round I can't remember how many times I have been winning against other burns and random aggro with 2-3 life points left after the second Helix... all matches that I would have lost without em.

This deck is working pretty well. Pithing Needle is there to stop Sensei's Divining Top, because I have an awuful matchup vs CounterTop without Needle... with 4x MD everything becomes much easier...

I have some doubts just about 1 slot: the Flamebreak/Sulfuric Vortex one... I'm sure we can find something better there

jamest

02-07-2008, 11:03 PM

Mogg Fanatic ... his only presence simply STOPS Dark Confidant and other stuff to attack
If your opponent doesn't attack with Confidant, because of your Fanatic, someone's making a mistake. Think about it.

If you wanted Confidant dead, you would've already killed it. If you wanted it to live (i.e. for the upkeep life loss), then your opponent is better off attacking with Confidant and getting 2 damage per turn. Unless, your decision to not kill Confidant is a mistake, in which case, your opponent will gladly draw extra cards.

Poron

02-07-2008, 11:27 PM

there are situations in which is better to kill it and others in which is better to leave it, Mogg Fanatic lets you to choose and it remains on the ground.

more than that when you play it first turn if you count his "personal damages" it always arrives to 4-5 which are anyway better then 3 on the first turn and nothing else.

more: it can block. a big tarmagoyf? np, we have mogg on the board and it still deal 1 damage to the opponent.

I have tried 2-3 times to cut it for blasts (Shard Volley, Shocks, Spark Elemental) but I have always returned 4x in. And I feel we really need it into our lists

Poron

02-07-2008, 11:28 PM

If your opponent doesn't attack with Confidant, because of your Fanatic, someone's making a mistake. Think about it.

If you wanted Confidant dead, you would've already killed it. If you wanted it to live (i.e. for the upkeep life loss), then your opponent is better off attacking with Confidant and getting 2 damage per turn. Unless, your decision to not kill Confidant is a mistake, in which case, your opponent will gladly draw extra cards.

normal situation: he's happy to draw more cards, I'm happy he loses some life. I'm happier he doesn't attack with DC because he's sure he would lose it.

so, i also save some hp

Filipinho

02-08-2008, 09:27 AM

I love Mogg Fanatic.
It gives Cephalid and Ichorid a hard time. Forcing Cephalid Breakfast to get a Shaman en-kor slows them at least a bit. Removing Bridges from the graveyard is a great way to race Ichorid.

It's a virtual source of card advantage: Blocking a creature and sac to kill another.

If targeted by removal slows your opponent while damaging him.

If your opponent doesn't have creatures he's free to swing and can deal 3/4 damage if dropped at t1.

I know it's bad to be top decked t3, t4, but it's worthy.

DragoFireheart

02-08-2008, 09:56 AM

Alright, so who's better for Burn:

Mogg Fanatic

OR

Keldon Marauders

?

Do we want both in the same deck? Do we want either? Do we only want one of them in the deck?

kicks_422

02-08-2008, 10:20 AM

I would choose Mogg Fanatic just because it doesn't force you to use your burn on creatures, since you sometimes have to do so to get a swing in with Marauders. Marauders work better in a Sligh shell since you'll be burning their blockers anyway.

Poron

02-08-2008, 11:07 AM

I would never cut Mogg Fanatic so probably you have to choose between Marauders and something else

DragoFireheart

02-08-2008, 11:18 AM

How about running both Keldons and Moggs? Good idea or would it slow the deck down too much?

Poron

02-08-2008, 11:25 AM

Poron

02-08-2008, 11:36 AM

new change!!!

8th feb 08
-4 Sulfuric Vortex/Flamebreak (the bad slot)
+1 Incinerate (now we play 3)
+3 Shard Volley!!!

kicks_422

02-08-2008, 11:53 AM

How about running both Keldons and Moggs? Good idea or would it slow the deck down too much?

If you would do that, add Taigas, Goyfs, and Lavamancers as well. That would actually speed the deck up.

Wallace

02-08-2008, 12:59 PM

If you would do that, add Taigas, Goyfs, and Lavamancers as well. That would actually speed the deck up.

Right, then your playing a diffrent deck... (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7458)

Poron

02-08-2008, 01:04 PM

that was irony...

DragoFireheart

02-08-2008, 01:32 PM

I wouldn't run Keldon really... they slow us.

turn 2 empty, turn three first attack and just for 3 (that can be blocked) instead on turn 2 we can burn them up to 6 (let's say 3 to be honest) and 3 again on turn 3... Marauders seem to be a waste of time and spare...

remember also that the biggest difference between mogg and Marauder is that marauder is not a "long period" threath because it vanishes instead Mogg is. (you never know how matches are going to become...)

Yes, but Marauders ALWAYS deal 2 damage, maybe 5 or a chump block/kill a creature. With Mogg you are only ensured 1 point of damage. Opponents might not like the idea of wasting spells on a Marauder that deals 2 anyways. If they don't they might take 5 total or lose a creature at worst.

I really wouldn't call Mogg a "threat" in the sense of giving you a speedy clock like a Goyf.

Androstanolone

02-08-2008, 01:49 PM

Mogg fanatic is far and away the better card for burn in general because it plays a simultaneously offensive and defensive role, and does both quite well.

Played on turn one he will often be worth at least 2-3 damage. He can then time walk a goyf/fat creature by blocking, granting the winning turn. The small amount he takes away from the aggressive aspect of the deck is greatly made up for in the way he increases the decks ability to shift roles. Burn can, and will, find itself on the defensive. Fanatic can remove creatures, block fat, swing in, and go to the dome. He might even remove some bridge tokens.

In short, he pulls his damage weight (2-3) and performs all kinds of other functions.

Don't misunderstand me, marauders are not "bad". They simply play a different role. They are a highly aggressive card on which you are gambling to get extraordinary value (5 damage or 2 damage + 1 for 1). You are gambling on it being unblocked or not running into anything x/4. Mogg is generally more reliable and can occasionally provide similar value. I think if one is going to play only one or the other, fanatic is the choice.

Poron

02-08-2008, 09:49 PM

I wouldn't cut Mogg Fanatic for any other red card in the format (except other 4 Lightning Bolt)

Anyway I made some changes renouncing to the white because I found that with Pithing Needle and Shattering Spree SB Disenchant was pretty useless.

here we are.

18 Mountain (no fetches)

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shard Volley (yes, 4)
4 Rift Bolt

2 Price of Progress (a kiss to the one who invented this)
4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate

4 Flames of the Blood Hand / or any 3cc slot (you can choose Flamebreak or Sulfuric Vortex depending on you meta)

4 Fireblast

I think the deck is perfect with this list, there is just some discussion no the 3cc slot, but the real thing we need to discuss is the SB

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Price of Progress
2 Free Slots to me... advice something :D

Filipinho

02-09-2008, 09:20 AM

I like the idea of using 4x Shard Volley + 4x Fireblast, but I feel the deck needs 20x Mountain to go that way.

Dark_Cynic87

02-09-2008, 03:04 PM

On your SB:

Do this:
-4 Pyrostatic Pillar

+3 REB
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Price of Progress

I think REB and Pyroblast are necessities againt CounterTop. Also helps against a Solidarity matchup.

Poron

02-10-2008, 05:26 AM

never... CounterTop has 4 Pithing Needle as SB, Pyrostatic Pillar is great against ALL storm decks and Belcher.

VS Solidarity a fast PP means definitly victory, just to remove it, he takes up to 6 damages, and just to remove it...

4 PP are doubtless in SB... they are much more useful than every RedBlast ever seen

kicks_422

02-10-2008, 06:15 AM

I'll have to agree about upping the land count to 20 if you're playing both Shard Volley and Fireblast. Maybe take out the 4 3cc cards for 2 more lands, and then up the Price of Progress count to 4.

Poron

02-10-2008, 06:44 AM

no, 4 Price of Progress MD never...

Anyway I'm gonna try
+1 Mountain
-1 FLames of the blood hands

20 mountains may be are too many...

kicks_422

02-10-2008, 07:13 PM

Why not? The decks that you have trouble with run lots of nonbasics. It's almost always 1R for at least 4 damage. Are there any mono-color decks that Burn has trouble with?

Poron

02-10-2008, 07:23 PM

if i play 4 dead cards MD may be i'll start havin

kicks_422

02-10-2008, 07:35 PM

Are they really dead? Are there any mono-colored decks at all?

Curby

02-11-2008, 10:36 PM

I like the idea of using 4x Shard Volley + 4x Fireblast, but I feel the deck needs 20x Mountain to go that way.

Well, 20 lands anyway. 2-3 Barbarian Ring are probably a good idea, especially if you're saccing all those lands (and thereby building Thresh). B-Rings also sac to Shard Volley, and B-Ring can also help prevent their pro-red weenie from reaching for the late-game kill against you. You'd probably rather try to race them anyway with topdecked burn, but for example a Pro-red Jitte-carrier is almost certainly game.

if i play 4 dead cards MD may be i'll start havin

It's really a metagame decision, but I would play with 0 or 4 in the main. The chances of drawing 1 of 2 with no tutors and little library manipulation isn't good at all, so for the matchups where PoP would help, your chances of seeing one isn't good anyway in game 1. Running more 4-ofs would give greater consistency, and if your metagame is unpredictable, running more consistent cards is better anyway. I agree that for a general powered Legacy meta where people have the usual fetches, duals, and :2:-lands, PoP definitely merits a full maindeck slot.

Are they really dead? Are there any mono-colored decks at all?

More specifically, what dangerous decks run all basics? White Stax and Faerie Stompy has :2:-lands, Death and Taxes has Flagstones, Karakas, and Ports. Ok, so 9-land Stompy is fast enough to be annoying and has 9 Forests, the mirror match would be basic-heavy, and monochromatic Tribals may have few nonbasics. In a casual meta, people will more likely play with monochromatic decks, though there are more and more cheap and reasonably efficient (for a casual meta) nonbasics being printed, so it is very seldomly a totally-dead card. 2 damage for 2 mana may be your weakest play of the game, but if you metagamed correctly, you'll just as likely do 8 damage with it.

Thehunter820

02-12-2008, 12:58 PM

yeah ill have to agree, if your running 4 shard volley's and 4 fireblast your going to want to have 20 lands, and i don think pyrostatic pillar as a 4 of is that necessary in the SB UNLESS you have a problem in your area with TES, Belcher, and the like, where im at its mostly Armaggedon stax, and Thresh Variations, so once my new cards get in, im going to run....

lands x18:
Mountain x12
Plateau x4
Barbarian Ring x2

Spells x39:
Lightning Bolt x4
Chain Lightning x4
Magma Jet x4
Rift Bolt x4
Lava Spike x4
Incinerate x4
Flame Rift x4
Price of Progress x3
Fireblast x4
Mishra's Bauble x4(still debating this spot)

Creatures x3:
Keldon Marauders x3(now I know this isnt a popular choice with some, but I like it, 2 damage, probably 5, and I dont care if it gets killed or STP'd its still gonna do damage, so its a pretty viable choice, the only weakness of this card on a major scale is that its one of the main targets for counter in the deck, but there's plenty of other things to back it up with many damage.)

SB:
Swords to Plowshares x3
Flamebreak x3
Disenchant x3
Red Elemental Blast x4
Pyrostatic Pillar x2(debating taking this out for 2x pyroblast)

Creature Discussion:
I dont run mogg fanatic or Grim Lavamancer becuz that gives them something to hit with their removal, and its only 1-2 damage usually, I like to leave them having dead cards in hand (the removal) so I dont run creatures. As of my knowledge there's no other major threats formed by creatures in burn that are likely to hit the field.

Media314r8

02-12-2008, 01:18 PM

Has it been determined that needle drop is a bad card in burn? It seems fine, as it turns lightning bolts, chains, and rifts into 4 damage for RR, draw a card. IMO it's superior to bauble, and equaly as conditional, having the same effect of drawing you deeper and thinning the deck, but while doing damage. The only downside is if you happen to be stuck at one land, it is a bit more tricky to cantrip with. (ping-triping of a suspended rift bolt is the only way that comes to mind) I like R for 3 damage, but I also really like RR for 4 damage.

DragoFireheart

02-12-2008, 02:09 PM

Wallace

02-12-2008, 03:10 PM

Poron

02-12-2008, 08:22 PM

Needle Drop is 100% a bad card because it says: "that was dealt damage this turn"

I can't imagine a worse topdeck when you run out of cards...

DragoFireheart

02-12-2008, 08:43 PM

Needle Drop is 100% a bad card because it says: "that was dealt damage this turn"

I can't imagine a worse topdeck when you run out of cards...

Yes, needle drop is a real bad card. Just stick to magma jet if you need to set up your deck.

Red isn't known for good card drawing anyways. It doesn't come as a surprise that needle drop would suck. Hell, even IF it would draw a card for 1 damage for the price of one R, I still wouldn't use it.

Poron

02-12-2008, 08:50 PM

In exchange of another, new, card? I would use it.

but we can't use it if it counts as a mountain in late game

mercenarybdu

02-12-2008, 09:25 PM

This deck is so simple as it is best known as Red Sligh to many. Here is my plan that I have complied that I have never put together at all......

4 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain

4 Slith
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant

4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shard Volley
4 Incenerate
4 Fireblast
4 Cursed Scroll

SB
4 Tormand's Crypt
2 Rain of Gore
4 Price of Progress
3 Pithing Neddle
2 Engineered Plague

....there are so many different ways to put it together but this is the version I decided to post in the time a good cup of coffee is being boiled.

DragoFireheart

02-12-2008, 09:27 PM

This deck is so simple as it is best known as Red Sligh to many. Here is my plan that I have complied that I have never put together at all......

Yet this is a "Burn" topic, not a Sligh topic.

Poron

02-13-2008, 09:41 AM

let's try my list with a
-4 Flames of the Blood Hands
+2 Mountains (mmm)
+2 PoP

and the 4 PoP are the "side slot"...

I really feel we need 4 Sulfuric Vortex SB anyway, we probably must redesign the whole SB

Wallace

02-13-2008, 12:45 PM

Because we are a bunch of pages in I feel I have to post quote the very first post in this thread....

Burn has done suprising well recently in Non-American tournies. I'll not pretend to know much about the deck nor even hide the fact that I think it is a weaker deck choice, but I will provide you with this information:

The Burn thread is also a Moderator’s nightmare. Previous burn threads have followed the same pattern: they are heavily flooded with junk and then heavily modded. Next, they are flooded with more junk and moderators become frustrated and later apathetic and the thread spirals into a disaster. Be wary of making worthless posts.

In this new thread, please make posts that are well-developed and free of flames. Keep in mind that most issues about burn have been discussed to death. It will be very difficult to come to a consensus about the following issues and these issues will be heavily modded:

Browbeat
Lava Dart
# of Mountains needed to support Fireblast
ForkAnd lastly, here is the link to the old Burn thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2636). Enjoy, and may I suggest that the first problem you solve is what to do about the new rash of Chalice/Trini decks.

EDIT: Nice first post on a new page...this means you should all see/read it...

Poron

02-13-2008, 03:29 PM

Wallace

02-13-2008, 03:46 PM

those points are forbidden because we have already discussed em.

this is a new point: How many lands do we need to support 4 Fireblast AND 4 Shard Volley?

Since Shard Volley requires just the sacrifice of a "land" and not a mountain, what about if we start adding Barbarian Ring?

if this reply is wrong because of its containts tell me and I'll delete it.

The answer is, why are you running 4 x Shard Volly and 4 x Fireblast? I really don't think Volly is needed in burn. You already run 16 x 3 for :r: spells, and while I would love to have another one, Shard Volly isn't it.

Poron

02-16-2008, 09:51 PM

what about Shock?

DragoFireheart

02-17-2008, 10:55 PM

Wallace

02-18-2008, 10:51 AM

3 for 1:

4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shard Volley
4 Rift Bolt

"Other" Burn:

4 Magma Jet [Utility]
4 Incinerate [Another 3 damage burn]

4 damage burn:

4 Flame Rift
4 Char
4 Fireblast

Lands

20 Mountains.

Sideboard

[Insert your local metagame sideboard]

I found 20 to be enough to support 4 blasts and shards. Frankly I don't want my burn to be doing anything cute: I just want to fry my opponent and be done with the non-sense :tongue: . If I go into top deck mode I don't have to worry about getting a Mogg when a bolt would be enough to kill my opponent.

I like the list, but why char? Wouldn't Flames of the bloodhand or Flame rift be a better choice here? I mean Char does 4 to a target and 2 to you for :2::r: FotBH the same but you can stop a Pulse of the Fields or Jitte activation. Flame Rift does 4 damage for :1::r: and 4 to you, I would think that the 1 less cc would be worth the extra 2 damage to yourself...

DragoFireheart

02-18-2008, 11:05 AM

I like the list, but why char? Wouldn't Flames of the bloodhand or Flame rift be a better choice here? I mean Char does 4 to a target and 2 to you for :2::r: FotBH the same but you can stop a Pulse of the Fields or Jitte activation. Flame Rift does 4 damage for :1::r: and 4 to you, I would think that the 1 less cc would be worth the extra 2 damage to yourself...

I run Flame Rifts.

I picked Char simply because it looks cooler than Bloodhand and allows me to blow up fat creatures when the need arises. I've NEVER seen Pulse of the Fields and if I try to use Bloodhand to prevent healing from Jitte they can simply wait in respose to use the counters: Frankly there are better ways to deal with jitte [blow up the creature, side in shattering spree to blow up jitte, etc].

I'm not saying Flames of the Bloodhand is bad: I simply prefer the fact that Char lets me hit a creature for 4 damage when I need to. Considering that this deck only runs 3 card types, I'll almost always be able to blow up a gofy if I need to.

Wallace

02-18-2008, 11:31 AM

I run Flame Rifts.

I picked Char simply because it looks cooler than Bloodhand and allows me to blow up fat creatures when the need arises. I've NEVER seen Pulse of the Fields and if I try to use Bloodhand to prevent healing from Jitte they can simply wait in respose to use the counters: Frankly there are better ways to deal with jitte [blow up the creature, side in shattering spree to blow up jitte, etc].

I'm not saying Flames of the Bloodhand is bad: I simply prefer the fact that Char lets me hit a creature for 4 damage when I need to. Considering that this deck only runs 3 card types, I'll almost always be able to blow up a gofy if I need to.

Yeah but a alot of the time people will wait until they are dealt lethal damage to use there Jitte, when thay take 4 more to the face and gain nothing off of it. FotBH also helps with Loxodon Hierarch and Darkheart Sliver...

DragoFireheart

02-18-2008, 01:16 PM

Yeah but a alot of the time people will wait until they are dealt lethal damage to use there Jitte, when thay take 4 more to the face and gain nothing off of it. FotBH also helps with Loxodon Hierarch and Darkheart Sliver...

If you having real troubles with life gain, you use Sulfuric Vortex. Keep it in the board if it's a moderate trouble in your meta, or keep it in the main if you see a lot of it.

Frankly, if you see a lot of life gain you're better off with a different deck.

suprafan386

02-18-2008, 10:03 PM

DragoFireheart

Are you not running price of progress main becuase its bad in your meta or did you just forget about it?

I consider it one of the upper tier cards in the deck that can wreck a lot of the stronger decks in the meta that run a lot of nonbasics.

Poron

02-19-2008, 08:29 AM

I partially agree... perhaps Char is really better than FotBH...

we have also to consider that we are never going to waste 4 damages on a creature so...

This is probably a choice that we have to test.

Anyway apart from the 3cc slot let's try to write a "common" list.

Auto-in

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

4 Incinerate
4 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
3 (4?) Price of Progress

4 3cc Slot

18-20 Mountains

So we have to decide the 3cc slot and the other 3-4 cards missing.

let's concentrate on the 3-4 cards missing.

candidates:
Shard Volley
Shock
Sonic Seizure
Spark Elemental (naaaa, bad)

other ideas?

Dilettante

02-19-2008, 08:43 AM

So we have to decide the 3cc slot and the other 3-4 cards missing.

let's concentrate on the 3-4 cards missing.

candidates:
Shard Volley
Shock
Sonic Seizure
Spark Elemental (naaaa, bad)

other ideas?

I'm an oddball, but... Rolling Earthquake. Clears the quickie Empty the Warrens or even an Ichorid Zombie Jamboree. Dances around Chalice. Hits Mongoose and board clears while plummeting their life a measure. Just don't use in builds with Flame Rift.

Zach Tartell

02-19-2008, 10:28 AM

I'm an oddball, but... Rolling Earthquake. Clears the quickie Empty the Warrens or even an Ichorid Zombie Jamboree. Dances around Chalice. Hits Mongoose and board clears while plummeting their life a measure. Just don't use in builds with Flame Rift.

Normal earthquake will do everything Rolling will do (that you stated) for about a thirtieth of the cost. Also, since you won't be able to cast it for more than two or three anyway, wouldn't Flamebreak be a better option?

redmage

02-19-2008, 11:08 AM

I partially agree... perhaps Char is really better than FotBH...

we have also to consider that we are never going to waste 4 damages on a creature so...

So... FotBH is "better" because it does no dmg. to us in the process.

Anyway apart from the 3cc slot let's try to write a "common" list.

Burn is very meta dependant; so the only "common list" you'll find would be...

Auto-in:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

3 Fireblast
3 Magma Jet

17-20 Mountains (and/or B. Rings)

Past those, it all depends on your meta, and your playstyle.

Personally, I like having a 4th Blast, but I don't feel that the 4th Jet is necessary.

This leaves 18-21 meta/playstyle slots.

candidates:
Mogg Fanatic
Keldon Marauders
Incinerate
Price of Progress
Flame Rift
Flamebreak
Cave-In
Thunderbolt
Browbeat
Sulfuric Vortex
Char
FotBH
Shard Volley
Shock
Seal of Fire
Sonic Seizure
Spark Elemental
Street Wraith
Baubles

Normal earthquake will do everything Rolling will do (that you stated) for about a thirtieth of the cost.

Not quite. "normal" Earthquake doesn't hit flyers; however, I've always found Flamebreak & Cave-In to be more efficient. R. Quake would be the "3rd tier" sweeper of choice (with a slight edge, over Pyroclasm, since 'clasm doesn't hit players).

Wallace

02-19-2008, 11:14 AM

Dilettante

02-19-2008, 11:17 AM

Come on Guys, we had this same conversation about 2 or pages back, lets not go over this again. Flamebreak is better than Rolling Earthquake, no to mention its a $1.00 rare as opposed to a $30.00 rare...

I had misread... I thought I read Flame Break on his list. I run Rollings on top of Flame Break for 8 board clears... and board in 'pure' burn.

redmage

02-19-2008, 11:26 AM

I had misread... I thought I read Flame Break on his list.

Actually, that's one of the first things I noticed about Poron's list; no sweepers, yet his "4 3cc Slot" was still undecided. :puz:

I figured it was just a meta call, but I did add sweepers to the candidates list.

Dilettante

02-19-2008, 11:43 AM

By 'pure' burn, I mean things like Price of Progress... but it isn't something I'd personally maindeck. The 'smart' ones just fetch basic lands when they see burn, unless their deck gives them little choice. People these days are considering Blood Moon (ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU ARE PLAYING RED), B2B, Wasteland, and Stifles a lot more than they used to, and their decks reflect it. Just get your opponent to think you pack it and that is enough... They'll go fetch their basics and make their mana base a little tougher. You get the benefit without needing to play the card.

DragoFireheart

02-19-2008, 12:35 PM

DragoFireheart

Are you not running price of progress main becuase its bad in your meta or did you just forget about it?

It's bad in my meta. If I were to run PoP, I'd take out Char/Shard Volley/Incinerate for it.

I keep seeing people posting creatures in their "Burn" decks. With the exception of Mogg and maybe Marauders, burn doesn't run creatures.

These are the things burn decks want to try and build towards:

- Virtual card advantage.

> This is done by running almost no other card types other than Instants, Sorceries and Basic Lands. By limiting the options our opponent could normally use against us, we create this "virtual card advantage" by making their draws dead which in turn allows us more time to "combo" off.

- Speed.

> Burn is not an aggro deck. It's a combo deck in the sense that it's entire deck is an engine. In the case of burn it's not the interaction of burn spells but the synergy they provide each other in one simple goal: Fry the hell out of our opponent until they are extra crispy. Just like a combo deck, certain forms of disruption can slow us down and prevent us from winning. In the case of burn it isn't yard hate [unlike other combo decks, like Ichroid or Breakfeast] or single spell disruption [CRET Belcher rolls over and dies when you answer either Belcher or EWT Tokens]. The hate for burn is generally life gain.

The fastest a burn deck can kill is turn 3. This requires 4 bolts, 1 Flame rift, 1 Fireblast and 3 mountains.

Example of a turn 3 kill:

Opening hand: Lightning Bolt, Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Flame Rift, Fireblast, 2 Mountains. Next 2 draws are: Mountain, another "bolt", like Chain Lightning or Shard Volley.

Note: Incinerate is not a "bolt" as it is not a 1-mana for 3 damage spell and doesn't allow us a turn 3 kill.

- Consistency

Burn is easily one of the most consistent decks in Legacy. I'd argue that it is more consistent than even Threshold! The reason burn is generally consistent is because of burns redundancy. Just about every spell in the deck is the same: burn burn burn. There are variations of each spell, but for the most part 90% of each game will unfold in this manner:

Fling your slow bolts first [Rift Bolt].
Use more bolts and/or bigger burn spells [Flame Rift, Char].
Finish your opponent with Fireblast.

---------------------------------------------------

These are, from my experience with burn, the most important factors for making a AAA+ quality burn deck. No cute tricks like Cursed Scrolls or creatures or fetchlands or what have you. The more simple your burn deck is, the faster and harder it will be to counter it. If your burn deck can consistently kill on turn 3-5, you got yourself a good burn deck.

Dark_Cynic87

02-20-2008, 04:46 PM

Wallace

02-20-2008, 05:40 PM

Here's what my list looks like:

19x Mountain

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Chain Lightning
4x Fireblast
4x Incinerate
4x Magma Jet
3x Browbeat (I like it)
3x Flamebreak
1x Rolling Earthquake
4x Keldon Marauders
2x Shard Volley

SB:
4x Price of Progress
3x Pyroblast
4x Pithing Needle
2x REB
2x Anarchy

This is what I play. I like a pair of Shard Volleys, as I rarely see them in opening hands, but they are still a 3-for-1 spell. 4x is too much for the manabase to handle, not to mention bad cards for an opening hand.

When creatures get to be heavy again; Goblins and such, I will drop back in another R-Quake.

--DC

Wow...the first Burn list in a long time that looks really good...I am not a big fan of Browbeat in Legacy but, I haven't tested it either... LMK how you do with this list, I may be switching back to burn while all of my Goyf Sligh stuff is tied up in my Extended RDW deck.

Poron

02-21-2008, 11:20 AM

1 Rolling Earthquake is useless.
Browbeat is a bad burn, it just deals 5 damage at best and at Sorcery speed.
Flames of the Blood Hands deals 4 Instant speed and there's no choice for the opponent. More then this FotBH can also cut life gain.

FotBH >>> Browbeat

2 Shard Volley has a point, indeed. I'd play 3 really

and what about Keldon Marauder instead of Mogg? O_o

Bovinious

02-21-2008, 11:34 AM

Wouldnt Char be better than FotBH? You target creatures with it in a pinch.

zander1

02-21-2008, 12:09 PM

@ Dark cynic
Your list looks pretty good.
But i'd play sulfuric Vortex instead of browbeat and the single earthquake, because played on turn 3 it deals 4 damage until turn 4, so it isn't too bad in goldfish. It's also golden against control decks and it helps against every lifegain (especially jitte and exalted angel) against which burn dies too easily.

I'd also cut the incinerates for 4 price of progress, because they make a ridiculous amount of damage.

@Poron
I think that the keldon marauders are even better than the fanatics; The marauders deal at least 2 damage for 2 cc and the fanatics 1 for 1 cc. But the marauders can better chump-block, since they have a stronger body and have a higher damage potential.

So: Marauders >>>>>>> Fanatics

DragoFireheart

02-21-2008, 01:45 PM

Wouldnt Char be better than FotBH? You target creatures with it in a pinch.

That was my argument before. If life-gain truly is a problem, you side in Sulfuric Vortex to deal with it.

Poron

02-21-2008, 01:56 PM

DragoFireheart

02-21-2008, 02:03 PM

The point is Char or FotBH? They're surely both better than Browbeat.

Anyway it's time for me to test these "Marauders", I'm pretty sure Mogg is still better but I'd never play 8 creatures in this deck so... the choices now are:

1) FotBH or Char?
2) Mogg Fanatic or Keldon Marauders?

Give your opinion

Personally I'd rather use no creatures. If I had to use something though I'd use mogg over Marauders first.

As far as FotBH or Char, use Char. As I said, Vortex is better with dealing with life gain. Char allows you to blow up nasty creatures when it is relevant and if you run no creatures to put into the yard you can almost always blow up a goyf.

Wallace

02-21-2008, 03:14 PM

Here is the list I've been testing on MWS. It's does really well and as long as my opponent doesn't quit and call me a noob before turn 4, I win. Shard Volley is a risky card but seems to be running OK as a 2 of. I have been un-impressed with Keldon Marauders in the deck, they do 2 damage for :1::r: and gain you 3 life, most of the time. When they do they in for 5 it's sweet though, but like I said, they get countered or STP'ed.I have also been testing Forgotten Cave in the mana base, it seems to be working well.As long as your not stuck playing it on turn one, the extra card is nice...here is the list any after I dropped the marauders...

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet
3 Flamebreak
4 Flame Rift
2 Shard Volley
4 Street Wraith

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forgotten Cave
8 Mountain

Side Board:
3 Shattering Spree
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroclasm
6 Meta Dependant Slots

n00per

02-21-2008, 03:43 PM

so this is new list I'am testing at the moment:

2 barbarian ring
16 mountain

4 Lightning bolt
4 chain Lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
4 Shard Volley
4 proce of progress
4 flamebreak
4 fireblast
4 magma jet
4 incinerate
2 fork

Board:

4 shattering spree
4 blood moon
4 chalice of the void
3 anarchy

I think you wont miss the Moggs so much and the 4 aditional "Bolds" could make the a little faster

Sanguine Voyeur

02-21-2008, 04:58 PM

I have also been testing Forgotten Cave in the mana base, it seems to be working well.As long as your not stuck playing it on turn one, the extra card is nice...Both ways of using Forgotten Cave seem slow. How often do you find yourself cycling it? If that's the main reason you run it, Street Wrath fills the same purpose without taking mana.

Wallace

02-21-2008, 05:40 PM

Both ways of using Forgotten Cave seem slow. How often do you find yourself cycling it? If that's the main reason you run it, Street Wrath fills the same purpose without taking mana.

I almost never have to play it as a mana source, but if needed its there.

Poron

02-21-2008, 08:52 PM

ok I've been playing 20-30 matches with Marauders instead of Mogg and I do am sure that Mogg is 300thousands times better.

there's no way else.

Poron

02-21-2008, 08:53 PM

Wallace

02-21-2008, 08:54 PM

ok I've been playing 20-30 matches with Marauders instead of Mogg and I do am sure that Mogg is 300thousands times better.

there's no way else.

Sure there is, don't use either....:wink:

DragoFireheart

02-21-2008, 08:56 PM

Sacearuse, why are you running non-basic lands? PoP is our SUPER KAMEHAMEHA burn spell: Why open yourself up to damage yourself? Why give Threshold the chance to Stifle a fetch-land of ours? Why do you want to take damage for minuscule amounts of mana thinning?

Unless you wanted to splash a color with Burn [Gofy Sligh is better anyways, but that's a different deck] there really isn't any point to fetchlands.

Forgotten Caves hurts Burn consistency: If you start a game with 2+ of those in your hand you will slow the deck down to a crawl. I just don't see it being worth the risk of a whole mulligan for a minor cycle effect. We have Magma Jet for that purpose anyways.

Poron

02-21-2008, 08:59 PM

I don't know what to choose for the 3cc slot between

Flamebreak
FotBH
Sulfuric Vortex

They are so situational...

I think we should design the SB for this.

4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pithing Needle
3 Flamebreak

But we really have to work on it...

Poron

02-21-2008, 09:01 PM

Anyway, again, if this deck keeps in becoming popoular at the rate it is now, we should start splashing white for Lightning Helix which are silver bullets in mirror matches.

Wallace

02-21-2008, 09:18 PM

DragoFireheart

02-21-2008, 10:14 PM

I'd still rather not open ourselves to stifles or needles.

Also for mirror matches, the fetchlands will give the other burn player an advantage.

redmage

02-21-2008, 10:19 PM

Fetch Lands serve a very important perpose in Burn, they this out the mana and let you draw the needed Burn spells. The forgotten Caves are ok, I ma just testing them, most of the time they just get cycled away and don't have to be played.

I like the list, but I've gotta agree that the mana base seems a bit awkward. Fetch Lands don't serve a very important purpose in Burn. We build our decks with great redundancy because we only plan on seeing 10-12 cards per game, and we want a certain ratio of Bolts/4-for-2s to be there. That's far too few "cards seen" to be able to reap any true benefit from Fetch-thinning.

Furthermore, in a deck so light on mana (usually <20; with little/no deck manipulation), the risk of an early stifled fetch land can be absolutely crippling. What little manipulation we do have (3-4 Jets) already allows us to bottom-deck anything unnecessary; so we have no need for Fetchs' shuffling effect.

Simply put, unless you're splashing for another color, the benefits really aren't worth the risks.

Caves are an interesting choice. Props for testing 'em. Personally, I think I'd find it too difficult to part with the utility of Barbarian Rings to be able to test Caves properly, and the CIPT doesn't seem right for my deck.

Poron

02-21-2008, 10:50 PM

I'm pretty sure the right way to play this deck is with 20 lands and 4 Shard Volley+ 4 Fireblast...

with this asset it's very easy to have a devastating turn 4

redmage

02-22-2008, 01:01 AM

The point is Char or FotBH? They're surely both better than Browbeat.

FotBH > Char for the 3cc slot (Personally, I wouldn't run either in my meta) . No self burn while you're racing a deck, and, if you're that worried about hitting creatures, run Flamebreak as your 3cc instead.

Browbeat is a whole different beast...
Vs. anything except Combo & Lifegain, it's a must counter spell. As I said earlier, we build our decks with redundancy to be able to win with the first 10-12 cards that we see. If an opponent gives us 13-15 cards to work with... GG. They will be overwhelmed either this, or the following turn. Likewise, if an opponent lets a single card (of that 10-12) take 1/4th of their life total... GG (same principle as a PoP for 6). The only "right" choice, for the opponent, is to counter it, and then that's one less counterspell you have to deal with when you attempt to "punch through the wall" to finish them off.

For example:

Turn 1 on the play:
Mountain, Bolt.
Opponent: 17
Cards in hand: 5

Turn 2:
Draw, Mountain, Bolt, Bolt.
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 3

Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, Browbeat...
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 2

If it's not countered, do they take 5, go to 6, and hope that you can't deal 6 dmg (with 3 cards in hand, and 3 lands showing) on turn 4? I like those odds.

Maybe they give you the 3 cards. Now you'll start turn 4 with 6 cards in hand, 3 lands in play, and you'll only need to deal 11 dmg. to finish it off. A Fireblast, which you'll likely have (if you didn't already), makes it 3 mana and 5 cards to deal 7 dmg. I like those odds as well.

On the draw it can be even better; when run with Cave-In, it allows for another possible turn 3 win...

Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, Browbeat...
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 3

I've had opponents take 5 (going to 6) while I was holding Fireblast, Cave-In, and a random "red card" as my 3-in-hand. The other option is that you get 7 cards in hand, 3 lands already in play, and only 11 dmg. needed for the turn 4 win.

You can also influence the opponent's decision, with Browbeat, depending on when you play it. If they're at 10+ life they're more likely to take the 5. If they're at 9 (or less) it gets far too dangerous because one of the cards you're holding may be a Fireblast (9 dmg. is a helluva punch for only 2 cards and 3 mana). The ironic part is that if you're not already holding the 'Blast, they're likely going to draw you into one.

For argument's sake, lets substitute FotBH/Char.

Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, FotBH/Char...
Opponent: 7
Cards in hand: 2 (3 on the draw)

Turn 4 you'll have 3 cards (4 on the draw), and 3 mana to deal 7 dmg. Certainly do-able; however, we still didn't win turn 3, and I like my turn-4-odds a bit more with a resolved Browbeat (regardless of the opponent's choice).

With all of that said, I certainly wouldn't run a full playset of Browbeats, but I have found the combination of 3x Jet/2x Browbeat to be a pretty solid draw/deck-manipulation engine in the past.

2) Mogg Fanatic or Keldon Marauders?

If/when I'm running a creature, it's definitely the Fanatic that wins out in my meta.

zander1

02-22-2008, 05:20 AM

@redmage
You describe the perfect hand with browbeat. But you usually must play a flame rift in the best case or even a magma jet or incinerate in the second turn. With that your opponent starts with 13-15 lifepoints turn 3 when you play browbeat. And even if you have the perfect mana base with 3 lands in play, you aren't used to draw exactly one mountain and 2 bolts.
Maybe you draw 2 bolts and flamebreak/Mogg/Magma Jet/ the second Fireblast? --->in this case you aren't able to deal 13-15 damage turn 4.
Or you draw 2 lands and one bolt? -----> then this was a cantrip for three mana. How good is that?

You can't count on browbeat to net you 1 land and 2 bolts, and even in this case your bolts can be moggs, flamebreaks, magma jets....

I just can laugh on other burn players in the mirror match who play browbeat. I just let them draw 3 cards turn 3 and am watching them being abe to win earliest turn 5.

n00per

02-22-2008, 05:57 AM

4 Chalice of the Void SB O_O. I suppose this is for Storm combo decks.

Play Pyrostatic Pillar instead of CotV

I think CotV is better than pillar because every deck wich plays tenrills of agony has no big problems with pillar because he goes on 4 life plays tendrills and has nearly full life again

redmage

02-22-2008, 08:25 AM

@redmage
You describe the perfect hand with browbeat.

Not really. The "perfect" opening 9 (cards seen by turn 3 on the play) doesn't contain a Browbeat at all; 4x Bolts, 1x 4-for-2, Fireblast, and 3 Mountains = GG turn 3. Personally, I don't think 3 Bolts, in the first 2 turns, is all that rare. On the contrary, I find it happens quite often, and it's that magical "4th Bolt" that can be hard to come by.

But you usually must play a flame rift in the best case or even a magma jet or incinerate in the second turn.

Says who? Again, I don't find having 3 bolts, in the first two turns, as being all that uncommon.

With that your opponent starts with 13-15 lifepoints turn 3 when you play browbeat.

Who says someone would have to play a turn 3 Browbeat in that scenerio? Not that it would necessarily be horrible. As I said before, you can help to influence the opponents choice. 10+ life and they'll usually take 5. 9, or less, and you'll likely get to draw 3.

And even if you have the perfect mana base with 3 lands in play, you aren't used to draw exactly one mountain and 2 bolts.

You lost me there. Who said anything about drawing "exactly one mountain and 2 bolts" off the Browbeat? It certainly wasn't me. The only thing I mentioned drawing into was Fireblast. Going from seeing 10-12 cards (1/5th~1/6th of your deck), to seeing 13-15 cards means that you're seeing roughly 1/4th of your deck. Having 4 Fireblasts means you're now more likely to find one (especially if you didn't have one already).

Maybe you draw 2 bolts and flamebreak/Mogg/Magma Jet/ the second Fireblast? --->in this case you aren't able to deal 13-15 damage turn 4.

Says who?

"Worst case scenario" (2 dmg. turn 2)

Turn 1 on the play:
Mountain, Bolt.
Opponent: 17
Cards in hand: 5

Turn 2:
Draw, Mountain, Jet (digging for 3rd Land, or bottom-decking the 4th-5th).
Opponent: 15
Cards in hand: 4

Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, Browbeat...
Opponent: 15
Cards in hand: 3

Odds are pretty good that, if it resolves, they'll take 5 and go to 10 .

Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 10
Cards in hand: 4 (5 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3

An active Fireblast leaves you with 3 mana and 3 cards left to deal 6 dmg. There's quite a few combinations, for those last 3 cards, that could give you a possible win there; even if two of those cards are another Mt. and a second Fireblast.

Maybe, by some odd chance, they actually let you draw off the Browbeat. Now your turn 4 looks like this:

Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 15
Cards in hand: 7 (8 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3

With 7-8 cards in hand you're virtually guaranteed the 4th land drop.

Unless you're playing against Combo, or Lifegain, things still don't look that bad. While it's true, barring a double Fireblast hand, or a really good PoP (possible on the 4th turn), you're probably not going to win turn 4; however, you've now got a full hand of "gas" to play around with.
Go ahead and Flamebreak + Bolt to kill a Goyf. You can afford to play the "Control" role for a bit, or drop some Moggs to chump block and buy you a 5th turn. Admittedly, I do run Cave-In (more "free burn"); so I've got a slight advantage here, but Fireblast, Cave-In + a "red card" leaves things like this:

Turn 4:
Draw, Fireblast, Cave-In + "Red Card"
Opponent: 9
Cards in hand: 4 (5 on the draw)
Lands in play: 2 untapped (+2 mana floating)

There are quite a few ways to deal 9 dmg. with 4-5 cards in hand, and 4 mana available. Remember, you've only played 1 Bolt (turn 1) this game; so chances are good that you've got one or two more, in hand, by turn 4, and heaven forbid they've popped a fetchland or two by now.

Now compare the dreaded "2nd turn Jet" (2 dmg.) with Char/FotBH...

Turn 3:
Draw, Mountain, Char/FotBH.
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 3

Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 11
Cards in hand: 4 (5 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3

Vs. Browbeat, turn 3, with a "take 5":

Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 10
Cards in hand: 4 (5 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3

Or Browbeat, turn 3, with a "Draw 3":

Turn 4:
Draw...
Opponent: 15
Cards in hand: 7 (8 on the draw)
Lands in play: 3 (+1 you can likely play from your hand)

If the opponent "took 5", you're clearly better off with browbeat by a nose. If they let you draw it's a tough call; you've got a full hand, and mana, to play with, but the real issue is that the turn 2 Jet has already locked you into a turn 4-5 win at the earliest. In exchange the Jet should have dug to something "good" to help you along. I still believe that Jet is a part of Burn's "Control suite", but with a full grip you should be able to afford to play the control role for a turn (or two) while you finish them off.

Or you draw 2 lands and one bolt? -----> then this was a cantrip for three mana. How good is that?

So it's Browbeat's fault if you get mana flooded? Come on, you can't blame Browbeat for that. Are you saying that you'd be any better off if you just drew Mountain Mountain on turns 4 and 5 (and had to wait till turn 6 to get the bolt)?

You can't count on browbeat to net you 1 land and 2 bolts, and even in this case your bolts can be moggs, flamebreaks, magma jets....

Again, you're building a Straw Man here. No one said that you have to count on Browbeat to "net you 1 land and 2 bolts" except you.

I just can laugh on other burn players in the mirror match who play browbeat. I just let them draw 3 cards turn 3 and am watching them being abe to win earliest turn 5.

While it doesn't necessarily "shine" in the mirror match (how common is the mirror in your meta?), I can't say that it's ever lost me a mirror. Your notion of "being abe to win earliest turn 5" is quite skewed. Most often, it solidifies a turn 4 win. On the draw, it also opens up possible turn 3 wins in my build (with Cave-In, or through their own Fetch dmg.).

Dilettante

02-22-2008, 08:31 AM

Browbeat is good or bad depending on your meta... If you are in an environment with slower, control-based decks such as Pox, Browbeat is perfectly fine. However, if you are piled up with decks like Ichorid, TES, and even Goblins... not so good.

Browbeat offers consistency, but the tradeoff is tempo and fundamental turn kills. It shifts you back a solid turn, but enhances your chance of that fundamental kill on that turn, so... your fundamental kill turn becomes turn 4-6 instead of 3-5 depending on your draw. It is not a bad card... but it has to be played in the right environment. In the typical Thresh/Goblins setup (i.e. 'regular' Legacy meta), I'd say its bad. It gives your opponents' Goyf/Mongeese one more turn to clean your clock... They fundamentally build up their aggro quickly while burn decks have static damage and that one turn can heavily swing the tide. However, if you are in a different meta, analyze it for that fundamental turn factor. How fast do they kill? If it's at least turn 4-5, Browbeat away. Chances are, though... it isn't.

DragoFireheart

02-22-2008, 08:45 AM

Wallace

02-22-2008, 10:11 AM

I like the list, but I've gotta agree that the mana base seems a bit awkward. Fetch Lands don't serve a very important purpose in Burn. We build our decks with great redundancy because we only plan on seeing 10-12 cards per game, and we want a certain ratio of Bolts/4-for-2s to be there. That's far too few "cards seen" to be able to reap any true benefit from Fetch-thinning.

Furthermore, in a deck so light on mana (usually <20; with little/no deck manipulation), the risk of an early stifled fetch land can be absolutely crippling. What little manipulation we do have (3-4 Jets) already allows us to bottom-deck anything unnecessary; so we have no need for Fetchs' shuffling effect.

Simply put, unless you're splashing for another color, the benefits really aren't worth the risks.

Caves are an interesting choice. Props for testing 'em. Personally, I think I'd find it too difficult to part with the utility of Barbarian Rings to be able to test Caves properly, and the CIPT doesn't seem right for my deck.

I will be thesting the deck with no fetch's or Caves for a little while to see what happens. The CIPT is a big deal when it matters, but most of the time you don't have to play them for mana and can just cycle them.

godryk

02-22-2008, 10:23 AM

Well, talking about Shard Volley, I've been goldfishing and testing some of the builds of this topic, including those with 20 lands and 4 shard Volley and I must say that Shard Volley and Fireblast doesn't conflict very often if you run the right amount of lands to support it.

Actually, the main problem with Shard Volley is that doen't work very well with 3cc burn spells such as Char and Flames of the Blood Hand. This deck can easily drop 3 lands but it will be the average mana you will have in the first 4-5 turns. In that situation, saccing a land to Shard Volley has made me spent turns keeping 3cc spells in hand and this is an awful situation for a Burn deck. So in conclussion I think Shard Volley is only playable as a 3-4of in lists with a low curve and creatures. Anyway it isn't very impressive and 3cc burn is very useful under a CB lock.

Thehunter820

02-22-2008, 01:06 PM

When I play burn my usual win ratio is on turn 4, except in special cases.

First turn:
Mountain Bolt/lightning/rift bolt/lava spike

turn 2:
Mountain 2 more 1 mana for 3 damage, or a flame rift

turn 3:
Mountain(usually) 2 more burns/another flame rift(possible on this turn)

turn 4:
burn/fireblast

Iranon

02-22-2008, 06:21 PM

Shard Volley doesn't conflict with Fireblast.

If you see less than 3 lands, you will be slow but have enough other Burn to get the job done; a blank matters little.
If you see 3 lands, Shard Volley + Fireblast is no problem at all.
If you see 4+ lands and two Fireblasts, you have a lot of free damage and can probably afford a blank... not to mention that the problem goes away if you draw another land (which would otherwise be useless).

For this reason, adjusting the land count to accomodate it makes little sense.

***

The problem is that it is a plain bad card. It's a 1-drop you won't want to cast in the early game because it stunts your development. Burn needs to be able to kill on ~9 total mana, because you can't count on a 4th land on turn 4 even if you increase the number of lands. Under this restriction, Shard Volley is basically a finisher, making it conflict with 3-mana spells as godryk pointed out very well.
This is a problem that won't go away by adding more lands.

Shard Volley might have a place in a build with a very low curve thinned out by Baubles/Wraiths and with Cave-In, but that's an approach I consider intriniscally flawed; Burn needs the ability to play Control if needed and trading card efficiency for mana efficiency takes that away. Before I consider that, I'd ditch Burn and play Combo.

***

Apparently, most people love some 3-mana card in Burn apart from Rift Bolt and Flamebreak but can't agree on which one... mine is Pulse of the Forge, for the inevitability. Recurring damage can turn Burn into a control deck with literally twice as many answers as an opponent has threats, and Pulse is pretty much the only one that is efficient enough as straight burn to not hurt our chances of a turn 4 kill.
Is Burn meant to play control? Heck no, not if it can avoid it. But the ability to do so effectively is nice considering that the sacrifice in speed is barely perceptible.

Michael Keller

02-22-2008, 07:51 PM

I don't know if I'm sold on the Forgotten Cave. You need Mountains for Fireblast and even though cycling is nice, realistically you want a first turn play. It just might negate that.

Thehunter820

02-27-2008, 12:29 PM

I personally dont use forgotten cave, because, while the cyclying is nice, the land itself isnt that good, coming in to play tapped is BAD, and you still have the :r: to worry about to cycle it. So if ur opening hand has only that, then your alrdy in some deep trouble, so, I personally dont run it, i'd rather use like street wraith or baubles myself.

Inferno

03-13-2008, 07:12 PM

Hi, first post. The actual deck i play in real is burn so i was looking for some advice. Next week is the first actual legacy tournament ive have ever gone to and the person i am going with pointed me to here. I mostly got the maindeck right but i was wondering one thing, what is the right number of lands to run if i am trying to support 4 fireblasts and 2 shard volleys. Also, since i dont know the legacy meta very well I was hoping someone could help me out with building a sideboard. Here is the list i run:

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
2 shard volley
4 Price of progress
11 mountain
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Wooded foothills
3 flamebrake
4 magma jet
4 Fireblast
4 mogg fanatic
4 flame rift

When i was playing my friend, he replaced 8 mountains with 8 fetches and they realy helped as i have always thought drawing lands was the worst thing you could do with this deck. Does my maindeck look okay, and also could someone help me with a sideboard.

Wallace

03-13-2008, 08:28 PM

@ Inferno

First off, Welcome to The Source!

Your list looks fine, I would only change a couple of things. 19 land is a good number, remember that you can sac any land to Shard Volley so you don't always have to fetch. I would run Barbarian Ring, it's a great extra source of damage, 2 is a good number. I have listed the changes I would make below.

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
2 shard volley
4 Price of progress
4 magma jet
4 Fireblast
4 Keldon Marauders -4 Mogg Fanatic
4 flame rift
3 Flamebreak

10 mountain -1 Mountain
3 Bloodstained mire -1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded foothills
2 Barbarian Ring

As for a sideboard, you can start with the basics. You need to Run Shattering Spree to deal with Chalice and Sulfuric Vortex to deal with life gain. Tormods Crypt is a good choice for graveyard hate and Pyrostatic Pillar is nice to deal with ETW based combo decks. I run Pyroclasm, it kills ETW tokens and heps with goblins. so give this a try:

4 Blood Moon
3 Shattering Spree
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt

Blood Moon is a great answer to a lot of the tier 1 and 2 decks in the format. I would run it over Magus of the Moon because it's harder to deal with, they can't just float a white and Swords it. Hope this helps!!!

Thehunter820

03-13-2008, 11:48 PM

Welcome to the Source.

Your deck is quite similar to the one I run. So, what I would change and why..

4 Lightning bolt - good
4 Chain lightning - good
4 lava spike - good
4 rift bolt - good
2 shard volley - im still debating these but its pretty decent
4 Price of progress - good
11 mountain - good
4 Bloodstained mire
4 Wooded foothills - I dont run dual and fetches mostly for the sake of price.
3 flamebrake - I personally sideboard because I mostly end up fighting stax and thresh
4 magma jet - good
4 Fireblast - good
4 mogg fanatic - I run Keldon Marauders over it as its a 2 mana def 2 damage and possible 5 or +3 life.
4 flame rift - good

I have umm Mishra's Baubles in just for draw, but im considering taking it out becuz it buffs tarmogoyf, and I also currently have in Incinerate, but those will be coming out soon.

BTW, go with 18 or 19 lands. probly 2 barbarian rings good for that and late game damage

Wallace

03-14-2008, 01:17 AM

Thehunter820

03-14-2008, 01:21 AM

So basically the list I just posted?

More or less, I was intending to add emphasis on the fact that I wouldnt run duals or fetches.

Wallace

03-14-2008, 09:06 AM

More or less, I was intending to add emphasis on the fact that I wouldnt run duals or fetches.

Thats fine, the deck only runs fetch's to thin out the lad anyway. I have tried running some Taigas to have access to Krosan Grip in the SB, I found that it's not really necessary.

bigbear102

03-14-2008, 09:42 AM

The only problem I see with the suggestions that Sac made are that you already play 4 MD PoP, so Blood Moon isn't going to be as effective, because they will be gettings basics anyway. I also never really liked Blood Moon in this deck because it costs 3, and doesn't help you win the game outright. For those reasons, I wouldn't run it in the board. I might suggest:

4 Pyrostatic Pillar (should be 4 even if you run Blood Moon, it's your only out against combo
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroclasm (You already have FB)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 REB (it's always nice to counter blue shit)

I think the most important change is upping the Pillar and Crypt counts. The decks you will want them against are combo and Icharid respectively. Pillar needs to be down as close to turn 2 as possible to ensure a win in the combo match. Having 4 allows a much better chance of this than 3. It can also come in against Control matches, as you don't have to worry about their clock, and it maked every spell deal damage, countered or not. You want Crypt turn 1 against Ichorid, or else it's a race you might not win. It is less effective against other matchups, that's why it's only a 3-of. Clasm comes in against them too, albeit less effective.

If you do want to run Blood Moon I would do it as a 3 of, cutting REB from the board I suggested. GL and have fun!

Pulp_Fiction

03-15-2008, 05:52 AM

I see why you are running ALL of the one drops but playing so many cards in your deck with one casting cost just makes Chalice and Countertop harder to deal with. I would suggest greatly varying the CC of all of the cards you play. This is the current build I have of Burn:
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Magma Jet
4x Rift Bolt
4x Flames of the Blood Hand
4x Flame Rift
4x Flamebreak
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
20 Mountain (could fit in 2x Barbarian Ring but I just don't want to)

Shard Volley and Fireblast in the same deck really scares me. The one thing burn really has going for it is consistency and most games I don't exceed 3-4 lands but I don't ever cast Fireblast unless I have to and almost always after cast it I won't be able to play anything for a few turns. Just a personal preference, however it should be noted that I have WAAAYYY below average luck and that is always a big factor for my card selection.

As for SB I really like Sulfuric Vortex over the Pillar and the reason being is the Vortex alone nullifies ANY life gain thus serves as an answer for Jitte and the only reason this deck fears Jitte is the life gain because it can race almost anything. I know the SB is very dependent on your meta but I just run:
3x Sulfuric Vortex
4x Tormod's Crypt (only used against Dredge which pops up frequently in my meta and should slow them down long enough to win).
4x Pyroblast
4x Shattering Spree

Sometimes I make all the 4x ofs 3x ofs and put in 3x Pithing Needle but just depends on the decks I expect to be there.

ParkerLewis

03-15-2008, 06:48 AM

I see why you are running ALL of the one drops but playing so many cards in your deck with one casting cost just makes Chalice and Countertop harder to deal with. I would suggest greatly varying the CC of all of the cards you play.

Seriously. You play Burn. You accept scooping to CB/Chalice/Trinisphere (or wait to draw your anti-artifact/enchantment SB card).

"Greatly varying the CC of all the cards you play" might stop you from "almost auto-losing" to those three cards and make you "being seriously screwed" instead, but will also turn your already tier 1.5/2 deck (at best) into some godawful unplayable pile. Instead of being able to play "good" spells when there's no CotV, you're choosing to play bad spells all the time.

redmage

03-15-2008, 09:53 AM

I see why you are running ALL of the one drops but playing so many cards in your deck with one casting cost just makes Chalice and Countertop harder to deal with. I would suggest greatly varying the CC of all of the cards you play.

I suppose it's a meta call. Personally, I can't justify slowing down the deck in order to fight these two. The way I see it, the longer you give them to set up countertop, or to draw into chalices, the more susceptible you become to them.

Against countertop, unload your 1 drops before they assemble the pieces, and then use things like Fireblast, Rift Bolt, and B. Rings to finish them off. If Chalices are that big of an issue, in your meta, I'd slip in a few MD Sprees before overhauling the deck's curve.

Knuckles29

03-15-2008, 04:04 PM

I'd like to remind ppl of the existence of Ingot Chewer as well. Not better/worse than Spree.. just an option.

Also I'm starting to think I might slip in Taiga/Stomping Ground for Krosan Grip soon. That is if the Counterbalance days keep coming hard. But that has seem to slow, for now.

AKFox

03-16-2008, 12:49 AM

The only problem I see with the suggestions that Sac made are that you already play 4 MD PoP, so Blood Moon isn't going to be as effective, because they will be gettings basics anyway.

I am of the mind that Blood Moon doesn't belong in the sideboard, but I feel it necessary to point out that while Blood Moon turns non-basics into Mountains, it doesn't turn them into basic lands. Therefore, Price of Progress would still count them as non-basic lands.

Soto

03-16-2008, 02:03 AM

I think he meant that since you're playing PoP they won't be searching for non-basics, but for basics thus making blood moon rather useless.

Thehunter820

03-25-2008, 11:41 PM

I think he meant that since you're playing PoP they won't be searching for non-basics, but for basics thus making blood moon rather useless.

I was thinking that too, my deck has PoP as a 3 of against most MU's.

Curby

04-01-2008, 05:27 PM

I'd like to remind ppl of the existence of Ingot Chewer as well. Not better/worse than Spree.. just an option.

An option, yes, but a worse one for sure! Ingot Chewer can only destroy one artifact. Ingot Chewer can still be countered easily by a Counterspell. Ingot Chewer can be Stifled. While we're at it, Ingot Chewer can be countered by Remove Soul. :wink:

Wallace

04-01-2008, 06:31 PM

An option, yes, but a worse one for sure! Ingot Chewer can only destroy one artifact. Ingot Chewer can still be countered easily by a Counterspell. Ingot Chewer can be Stifled. While we're at it, Ingot Chewer can be countered by Remove Soul. :wink:

Yeah plus...

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/GPT/en-us/Card97233.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=97233#) > http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/LRW/EN/Card139686.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=139686#)

Thehunter820

04-01-2008, 09:52 PM

An option, yes, but a worse one for sure! Ingot Chewer can only destroy one artifact. Ingot Chewer can still be countered easily by a Counterspell. Ingot Chewer can be Stifled. While we're at it, Ingot Chewer can be countered by Remove Soul. :wink:

Not to mention its 5 mana, versus affinity one of you will be dead or very very close by then

Sanguine Voyeur

04-01-2008, 09:54 PM

Not to mention its 5 mana, versus affinity one of you will be dead or very very close by thenOne could assume that Ingot Chewer is intended to be evoked.

However, being a creature does not compensate for the card/tempo advantage that Shattering Spree can provide against Affinity.

Thehunter820

04-01-2008, 09:56 PM

true, but then it only kills one, still not that good either way, I was mostly talkin bout remove soul

*Kudos for my signature btw :)*

Clark Kant

04-02-2008, 10:00 PM

I would consideer splashing Black for 4 Dark Confidant and 3 Sygg, River Cutthroat if I were you guys.

Thehunter820

04-02-2008, 11:06 PM

I wouldnt splash black but it could be decent, while dark confidant is good for drawing, and possibly speeding up ur kills, he's a 2 mana drop, I tend to win 4-5 turn on an average, possibly 3, so he rly doesnt help that much as he take the place of a probable 6 damage, and you'd have to use duals which make you take damage from price of progress.

Cire

04-06-2008, 01:08 PM

okay i'm sure most people saw the new card manamorphose and for some reason i came up with this list

It's an experiment running the "lowest" amount of cards for burn

--36 Card Burn--
8 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Street Wraith
4 Mana
4 Manamorphose

4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Flame Rift
3 Incinerate
2 Price of Progress

Looks fun don't know if its actually any good... i think ill proxy it up and have some fun with it.

zander1

04-06-2008, 01:39 PM

lol
I think you can also run 4 needle drops to make the deck thinner. And actually, you're playing a 44 card deck; the fetches don't count.

What I would change is:
+2 Price of Progress
+4 Shard Volley
-3 Flame Rift (since you get enough damage from the street wraiths and the fetches)
-3 Incinerates

I also played baubleburn in the past, maybe I'll start with it again and let my goyf sligh at home.

Also, I don't know if the damage and to be vulnerable to stifle are worth the small deckthinning and the "one-scry" with Mishra's Bauble.

Cire

04-06-2008, 10:31 PM

idk shard volley doesn't look that good, how bout adding some plains and then lightning helix?

Maybe taking out 2 mountains and putting in one plain and then one W/R dual and have manamorphose give me RW mana every time?

like my previous list

+1 Plains
+1 R/W dual
+2 Price of Progress
+4 Lightning helix
-3 Flame Rift
-3 Incinerates
-2 Mountains

Thehunter820

04-07-2008, 12:58 PM

zander1

04-07-2008, 01:09 PM

Yeah you suggested 4 Fireblast and 4 Shard Volley in the same deck I wouldnt recommend that, because your likely to see one of each, that's 3 lands you've just sac'd for 7 damage, on average you should win about turn 4, that would leave you with 1 land left, now while there alot of 1 mana 3 damage cards, I wouldnt get my self less than 2 lands unless I was going for the kill.

You're right, 4 Fireblast and 4 Shard Volley might be too much; I didn't think carefully about it.

But you also shouldn't forget that you surely wouldn't cast a fireblast and a shard volley on turn three if your opponent survived it. These are the finishing spells in burn. Only cast them if your opponent will be dead after letting the resolve.

Thehunter820

04-07-2008, 02:58 PM

You're right, 4 Fireblast and 4 Shard Volley might be too much; I didn't think carefully about it.

But you also shouldn't forget that you surely wouldn't cast a fireblast and a shard volley on turn three if your opponent survived it. These are the finishing spells in burn. Only cast them if your opponent will be dead after letting the resolve.

Yes, but the thing that's good about burn is because there's always something you can do, if you have 4 and 4, you could have dead cards very easily, obviously you wouldnt cast them, so that could slow you down, which isnt something Im personally gonna do on purpose, as burn is good because of its speed, and not relying on creatures, and not having dead cards.

Clark Kant

04-13-2008, 06:12 AM

Burn is fun, but I don't think it's uber competitive, and it's boring to play with and play against after a while.

Just to mix it up, I'm planning on playing 4 Chain of Plasma and splashing white into the deck to play 4 Lightning Helix and 4 Swan of Agryll.

It's still basically a burn deck, but with an odd twist, it can randomly just play out a hard to kill 4/3 flyer that makes all your burn spells into Ancestral Recalls, and eventually gives you an instant speed win.

What do you guys think? Not about how competitive it is, I know it's not, but could it be done atleast (to allow double WW that is).

Thehunter820

04-14-2008, 12:24 PM

Eh, mono colored is the way to go, but i've seen worse things, {insert cavius post here} lolz jk. Lightning helix is the best w/r burn, but 2 for 3 damage isnt the greatest thing, I'd take out incinerate for it if you run it though.

DalkonCledwin

04-15-2008, 10:12 PM

Moon Burn
Lands
4 x Ancient Tomb
16 x Snow - Covered Mountain

Moon Effects:
3 x Blood Moon
1 x Magus of the Moon

Mana Producers
4 x Simian Spirit Guide

Win Conditions
4 x Price of Progress
4 x Fireblast

3 for 1
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Chain Lightning

Other Spells
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Flamebreak

Sideboard
4 x Tormod's Crypt
4 x Shattering Spree
4 x Pyrostatic Pillar
3 x Sulfuric Vortex

This version of the burn deck is my attempt at making the burn deck competitive in my own meta. I think it will run fairly smoothly. the thing about it is that it is designed to shut down most every other deck that I can think of except decks that run mostly on mono-red colors, while outracing those that run basic lands to support themselves. The only deck I forsee any problems with it against would be Enchantress, and possibly the (oh damn whats it called?) enchantment heavy deck (not enchantress)...

yankeedave

04-16-2008, 11:06 AM

Ahh, my first post on a MTG forum in 3 years - its good to have a break.

Now, I love this deck and used to play a Sligh version of it and even took it to the Type 1 Classic several years ago here in the UK. Now I am just running it straight burn and love how it annoys people!

Anyways, to the point - why are you running -

Moon Burn
Lands
4 x Ancient Tomb
16 x Snow - Covered Mountain

I would have thought the extra mana from the tombs would not be needed except to power out the Moons, and while they are very nice in several metas, I think the extra space you are taking up would be better used a burn/basic mountains, as you are giving your opponent two things:

1) a target for Wastelands
2) extra damage to yourself both from using those lands and also from your own Price of Progress (PoP)

You are also leaving yourself open to manascrew, as you do not want to be seeing more than one of these a match, and most of your spells only require :r: and do not need :2:. Its nice to have a turn 2 Moon, but I dont think your deck would struggle if it was t3. Also, I would rather have :r::r: on turn 2 for 2 more Bolts or a 4 for 2, instead of :2::r:, which is next to useless in many situations.

And the deck you were thinking of was Enduring Ideal, but isnt that more of an Extended deck, rather than a Legacy deck?

Michael Keller

04-16-2008, 12:09 PM

Has anyone really taken Ankh of Mishra into serious sideboard consideration? I mean, it helps fix the "mana-screw" issue given the colorless cost, deals 5 damage per fetch-land, and shuts down Crucible/Loam-based builds. I'm just throwing it out in the fold because this card is horrifically underrated in the format right now. I mean, it just -sits there - and does serious damage. That's good.

Thehunter820

04-16-2008, 12:36 PM

eh, ankh of mishra is ok, but, its 2 mana, so it slows down turn one burns, and it only effects them when they play a new land, as we average 4th/5th wins they'll only take 2-6 damage, which is ok for the 2 mana, i'd only see maybe 4 damage with it though so I personally wouldnt run it.

and on the bloodmoon deck...

It could work fine for your meta, but I would probably drop the tomb's add in 2 barbarian rings, and 2 other cards of your choice.

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 02:23 PM

Thanks guys, I just got done gold fishing the deck, and was thinking the same thing about dropping the tombs in favor of more basic mountains... here is the revised deck list for those of you who are interested:

// Lands
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [TE] Wasteland
14 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain

// Creatures
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [9E] Blood Moon
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [DS] Flamebreak
3 [10E] Incinerate
1 [R] Fork

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 2 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast

I decided to add the wasteland because it is an additional land hate card. I also decided to move the price of progress to the sideboard because that much land hate in the main board may have been unnecessary, especially if I came up against a rare deck with nothing but basic land cards. Additionally, I modified the sideboard to be a little more powerful I think. I took out the Simian Spirit Guides because without the Ancient Tombs there was no real point in having them in the deck, they were there to allow me the occasional first turn moon. But without the tombs, I don't plan on getting first turn moons, so I will settle for turn 3 moons or later in this deck I guess. But I suppose I could put them back in if you all thought it was a good idea to try for turn 2 moons? But as it stands I thought I would try to stream line the deck as much as possible, because I want to increase the odds of winning faster with the deck. with the deck the way it was prior to these modifications I was winning on average on turn 5, and that was just to slow.

Thehunter820

04-16-2008, 02:47 PM

I know it rly isnt important, but is there any reason that you use snow covered mountains as opposed to say alpha or something?

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 02:59 PM

I know it rly isnt important, but is there any reason that you use snow covered mountains as opposed to say alpha or something?

Not particularly... I just like snow-covered better than alpha... if I could get a full set of Ice Age Snow-Covered, I would be using those instead of the stupid Cold Snap Snow-covered mountains... but alas I only have 5 Ice Age Snow Covered Mountains.

Thehunter820

04-16-2008, 03:14 PM

Also, is your mana very aggro, because the 4 flamebreak usually isnt that necessary, have you considered Urza's Bauble, Mishra's Bauble, Street Wraith or Keldon Marauders?

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 03:21 PM

Also, is your mana very aggro, because the 4 flamebreak usually isnt that necessary, have you considered Urza's Bauble, Mishra's Bauble, Street Wraith or Keldon Marauders?

I haven't really considered the baubles, or the wraith... but I would be willing to consider them... what would you recommend doing to add them to the deck? I use the flamebreaks to deal with threshold to an extent and to deal with goblins to a greater extent. But if you don't think those are necessary I would be willing to take the flamebreaks out for the baubles or something...

Thehunter820

04-16-2008, 03:26 PM

Hmm maybe try something like this out...

// Lands
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [TE] Wasteland
14 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain

// Creatures
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [9E] Blood Moon
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [FD] Magma Jet
2 [DS] Flamebreak
4 Mishra's bauble

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 2 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast

and then any combination of urza's bauble, streeth wraith or keldon marauders as a 2 or 4 of.

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 03:58 PM

// Lands
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [TE] Wasteland
14 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain

// Creatures
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [9E] Blood Moon
4 [VI] Fireblast
2 [DS] Flamebreak
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [CS] Mishra's Bauble
3 [5E] Urza's Bauble

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Does this look any better?

yankeedave

04-16-2008, 03:59 PM

Hmm, I like the changes you have made so far, I would be tempted however not to drop the Pyrostatic Pillars from your sideboard unless you don't see a lot of Affinity in your meta. It demolishes combo very quickly. Also, I like your addition of powder keg to deal with things like Chalice and Goblins but I am concerned about stifles and counters against it, I think Shattering Spree is better in that instance as you get the storm off of counters, even if stifle is still a risk. But I would rather see some of your PoP MD and maybe some other changes in the SB too. PoP is one of your killers, and you can always take it out if they are playing lots of basics for the other tasty stuff in your SB.

I am thinking of running:

// Lands
19 Mountain (I dont like taking unnecessary damage from my own deck if I can help it.)

// Creatures
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [FD] Magma Jet
3 [DS] Flamebreak
2 Browbeat (I like the extra draw.)
4 Price of Progress
2 Flame Rift (I don't consider this card unnecessary damage as it gets you 1/5 of the way to the win.)

And this leaves you 3 cards for your Meta slot. I am currently running Incinerate, but this could be your Blood Moons if you like.

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pithing Needle

I think this side board manages to shut down a lot of the competition that is currently out there and should have most of the answers if you like. I would love to find room for Guerilla Tactics, as it is my favourite against Pox etc, but I just can't find the room or the real need for it :)

Wallace

04-16-2008, 04:06 PM

Baubles don't work, take this from someone who has tried every way to make them work. They put artifact in your yard to make your opponent's goyf bigger, which speeds up your clock. This deck plays really well with just burn spells and a couple of creatures. Vexing Shusher will be really good here, he is an un-counterable creature that can make all of your other burn spells get in there. The other card I like is Manamorphose, it really just draws you a card with out tieing up 2 mana. I will be doing some testing with these over the next few weeks...

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 04:14 PM

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 04:31 PM

sorry misread, didn't notice that you left 3 slots open for blood moons... though I think you miscounted, if you add both flame rifts, you will be left with out room for 3 blood moons....

Wallace

04-16-2008, 04:55 PM

Bovinious

04-16-2008, 05:11 PM

IMO and in my experience with this deck, blood moon is a wasted slot. People are already playing around your POP's and will have plenty of basic lands on the table. It's also a 3 drop that deals no damage, you would be better off playing Molten Rain (not that I would play that either).

I agree, using Price of Progress to win the game is better than stalling out for a while with Blood Moon, so I dont think its smart to discourage the use/fetching of nonbasics with Blood Moon in addition to Price.

Also yankeedave, try not to use red text, thats usually reserved for the admins/mods and I wouldnt want them to throw a fit at you :wink:

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 05:11 PM

IMO and in my experience with this deck, blood moon is a wasted slot. People are already playing around your POP's and will have plenty of basic lands on the table. It's also a 3 drop that deals no damage, you would be better off playing Molten Rain (not that I would play that either).

The idea isn't that the moon is going to be doing damage, but that it is going to be stopping the opponent in their tracks, or forcing them to waste precious resources to stop it themselves. Meanwhile I am stocking up and able to do more damage the next turn with more cards.

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 05:13 PM

I agree, using Price of Progress to win the game is better than stalling out for a while with Blood Moon, so I dont think its smart to discourage the use/fetching of nonbasics with Blood Moon in addition to Price.

So if not blood moon, what card would you suggest in addition to price of progress to increase this decks chances of winning? Cause I am having a hard time winning games, and I was hoping to increase those odds of winning... I know the deck simply isn't as competitive as other decks, but I think it might be possible to make it more competitive, especially with the release of some new good cards in shadowmoore like vexing shusher.

yankeedave

04-16-2008, 05:23 PM

I am not sure what to put in those last few slots either, I am testing Char at the moment, but we will see.

@ Bovinious - thanks for the tip mate, took the colour out of my post!

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 05:30 PM

I am not sure what to put in those last few slots either, I am testing Char at the moment, but we will see.

@ Bovinious - thanks for the tip mate, took the colour out of my post!

I thought about more flame rifts... but I don't want to run more than 1 or 2 of those considering they damage me for 4 as well... So I am honestly not sure what other than the Blood Moon I could possibly run in the deck. Except maybe Incinerates... or the new Char card....

Wallace

04-16-2008, 06:33 PM

The idea isn't that the moon is going to be doing damage, but that it is going to be stopping the opponent in their tracks, or forcing them to waste precious resources to stop it themselves. Meanwhile I am stocking up and able to do more damage the next turn with more cards.

The whole point of Burn is to win the game as fast as possible. Stalling the game with spells like Blood Moon may work in theory but in reality most decks now days can deal with blood moon. Plus blood moon is a terrible draw when you are playing off the top. A moon effect is really not needed to make this deck more effective.

I thought about more flame rifts... but I don't want to run more than 1 or 2 of those considering they damage me for 4 as well... So I am honestly not sure what other than the Blood Moon I could possibly run in the deck. Except maybe Incinerates... or the new Char card....

Unless you are playing against an aggro deck or a mirror, who cares if you take 4 damage from a Flame Rift? I mean 90% of the time your opponent will be at or bellow 11 by the end of the second turn. Burn doesn't really care about life loss, to a point, Flame rift is a fine choice. Char is ok, but there are 3 or 4 spells I would play over it. Pulse of the Forge, Flames of the Blood Hand, Flame Javelin (From Shadowmoor) or Incinerate are all better choices.

Here is the list I will be testing after the Shadowmoor release:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Manamorphose
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Price of Progress
3 Magma Jet
3 Flamebreak
3 Flame Rift
1 Shard Volley

3 Barbarian Ring
16 Mountain

I don't post side boards because they are really meta specific...

Exact

04-16-2008, 06:58 PM

Okay, I'm a new member but a very old player :smile:

I rarely play burn in tournament. In fact, my friends that don't own legacy cards borrow me a burn deck.

After a lot of talk about burn decks, we are all convinced that the less lands you play, the more chance you have to don't loose the game. In that philosophy, spells that don't cost 1 rarely make the final cut.

Here is the list my friends and I are playing right now.

1 for 3:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Shard Volley
4 Sonic Seizure

Others:
4 Fireblast
4 Needle Drop
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Price of Progress
4 Street Wraith

Mana Base:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Mountain

SB
4 Flame Rift
4 Pyroblast
4 Hull Breach
3 Artifact Mutation

Cards explanation:

Let's forget about most of the burns.

Shard Volley: 1 for 3 damage. Spells with 1cc are the key if you want to win on turn 3 or 4. This one make the cut until there is a better 1 for 3 damage!

Sonic Seizure: Same thing as Shard Volley, some of my friends want to play 3 to reduce the chance of having 2 in hand. Personally, I like it. This is the kind of card you must test before complain.

Needle Drop: This card is funny. A 1cc burn that let you draw a card. For the moment, I like it. It took the place of Mogg Fanatic.

Keldon Marauders: As soon as there is a new 1cc burn for 3 damage, I remove this one from the deck. If you want to win on turn 3, you prefer not to see him, exept if you play against non-creature decks.

Price of Progress: The reason why there is 4 Pyroblast in the board! Seriously, this card is THE burn. The Flame Rifts in the board are there to replace the PoP in game 2 if you play against a deck with lots of basic lands.

Street Wraith: This card was totally printed for burn decks. It let you don't play Mogg Fanatic or another 2cc burn.

Taiga: The green is only for sb. I'm not sure if the green is the ideal color. For the moment, Hull Breach and Artifact Mutation are pretty good against CoP, Worship and Affinity decks.

Do not complaint about Chalice@1 please, we are talking about a burn deck here. Oh, my friends wins under it anyway.

My 2 cents,
Exact

Wallace

04-16-2008, 07:27 PM

@ Exact

:eek: ... you haven't played in a while huh?

DalkonCledwin

04-16-2008, 10:53 PM

// Lands
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
17 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain

// Creatures
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
3 [SDM] Vexing Shusher

// Spells
4 [VI] Fireblast
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [FD] Magma Jet
3 [DS] Flamebreak
2 [TSB] Browbeat
3 [NE] Flame Rift

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

This is the revision I thought I would make for the Shadowmoore release. The modifications were:

-1 Price of Progress
-1 Flame Rift
-1 Magma Jet
+3 Vexing Shusher

I think that will allow my match ups against Threshold and Landstill to be much improved :D

Though I am not to sure about whether the Flamebreak and Vexing Shusher are really very compatible...?

revenge_inc

04-17-2008, 01:52 AM

I am testing Char at the moment
Why Char? It is horrible. If you have :r::r::r: and absolutely must deal 4 damage, then use Flame Javelin (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/swimming/mf194_sqky.jpg) or Flames of the Blood Hand (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=74625) or even Pulse of the Forge (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=39410). However I think that all of these "4-damage-for-3-mana" cards suck.

Also yankeedave, try not to use red text, thats usually reserved for the admins/mods and I wouldnt want them to throw a fit at you :wink:
Bovinious, thinking in the mods best interest! I am shocked :eek:-LOLZ

EDIT:
When it comes to Burn, Ankh of Mishra seems powerful and so do 16 deck thinners. This is my completely untested theoretical Burn decklist. This may likely be the jankiest decklist you've ever seen:

4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

3 Ankh of Mishra

4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Flame Rift
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
2 Fireblast

9 Mountains
4 Great Furnace
2 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard:
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Flamebreak
7 ?

Clark Kant

04-17-2008, 03:32 AM

Here is the most efficient burn list you have ever seen...

18 Moutain

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Shard Volley

4 Spark Elemental/Price of Progress
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith

Sideboard Cards
Smash to Smithereens
Price of Progress
Flamebreak
Pyrostatic Pillar
Ankh of Mishra
Vexing Shusher

Card Explanation

Efficent burn spells make the difference between killing one turn earlier, and losing the game.

Thus, any card that deals less than 3 damage is absolutely unacceptable. Sorry Magma Jet. I know you occasionally filter out a land and blah blah blah, but I really want to dealing six points of damage turn two, not four. Besides, between the Fireblasts and Shard Volleys, this deck has a use for excess lands. Flame Rift and Keldon Maruaders barely squeak by at 4 damage and 5 damage respectively, but jsut 2 damage is two small.

Spark Elemental. Oh no, what if he gets blocked or removal thrown at him. Really, no one foregos an attacker to leave a blocker behind to defend against a burn deck. Removal is a more realistic concern. But guess what, you decide when you want to cast him. Just play him when they're tapped out, and you'll be fine. I've been running him for a while and I'm fairly convinced that his pros outweight his cons.

If you don't want to play Spark Elemental, play 4 Price of Progress in it's place.

Manamorphose/Street Wraith - 0cc instant speed cantrips are exactly what this deck needs. The baubles suck as you have to wait a turn for their effect and they thus make crappy top decks. But the same isn't true for these cards.

P.S. I'm VERY impressed with Smash to Smithereens.

revenge_inc

04-17-2008, 04:07 AM

The baubles suck as you have to wait a turn for their effect and they thus make crappy top decks.

After some quick testing I have found that crappy topdecks definately outway deck thinning. Hey, I was stubborn and just had to try 8 Baubles. :wink:

I'm VERY impressed with Smash to Smithereens.
WTF? If this is a joke it isn't funny. :confused:

yankeedave

04-17-2008, 04:56 AM

Why Char? It is horrible. If you have :r::r::r: and absolutely must deal 4 damage, then use Flame Javelin (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/swimming/mf194_sqky.jpg) or Flames of the Blood Hand (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=74625) or even Pulse of the Forge (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=39410). However I think that all of these "4-damage-for-3-mana" cards suck.

Had not seen the Javelin, that will be my choice if I have to run a 4 damage/ 3cc card!

And I dont like Sonic Seizure, as the deck is meant to use everything it draws, so discarding a card at random is not really helpful to the win, IMO.

Clark Kant

04-17-2008, 07:26 AM

revenge_inc

04-17-2008, 01:45 PM

How could you not be impressed with Smash to Smithereens. It's the perfect sideboard choice.

It lets you blow up Chalice set to 1, or Aether Vial, or Juggernaut while also doing three damage to your opponent, the same amount as incinerate.
Holy crap, I totally misread that card, I thought it did 3 damage to you instead of your opponent (and that you suggested it sarcastically). My bad for reading spoilers at 4 am.

Any thoughts on my list above?
On paper it looks quite solid. You only have the most efficient spells.
Do you ever run out of Mountains with 4 Fireblast and 2 Shard Volleys?

Clark Kant

04-17-2008, 04:38 PM

Yes, of course. It happens, but not that often. I think it's still worthwhile.

Actually, never mind. I think Price of Progress is more valuable than Shard Volley. It also works well as a 2 of as the later you play it, the more damage it does. So this will be my list post shadowmoor...

18 Mountain

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress

4 Spark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith

Sideboard Cards
4 Flamebreak
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Price of Progress
2 Ankh of Mishra

revenge_inc

04-17-2008, 10:42 PM

Post Shodowmoor decklist.
If you take out the Shard Volleys, I would go:
-2 Mountains
+2 Barbarian Ring
Sideboard:
-2 Price of Progress
+1 Pyrostatic Pillar
+1 Ankh of Mishra
but that's just me nitpicking.

Clark Kant

04-17-2008, 11:03 PM

I don't like Barbarian Rings in a deck with 4 Fireblast. Dealing damage to yourself, till you get threshold, which isn't that easy to do without fetchlands, all to spend two mana to deal two damage is not worth it either imo.

yankeedave

04-18-2008, 04:32 AM

4 Spark Elemental

I am currently running ole Sparky, but I find him a dead card if I dont hit him in the first two turns, as after that, most people can deal with it. I am thinking of going back to Mogg Fanatic, as he chumps and burns, as has already been well debated in this forum. Just a personal preference really.

And I am not really a fan of Ankh of Mishra in the SB, as I find it is a win more card, not a solution to a problem my opponent's deck may be presenting me with. It just does extra damage, that my deck already does well.

I am currently stuck on my 2 drop however. I see it as a choice between Magma Jet and Manamorphose (MM). The question for me is, Magma Jet does the damage and you fix your next draw, MM gives you the card now, but does no damage, but may well net you more damage. I am really struggling with this one. Any ideas?

And Smash is nice, does the damage you need, I am tempted the run them, but I still like the uncounterableness (is that a word?) of the replicate on Shattering Spree. So I am a bit torn, any comments/suggestion?

Yankee

Curby

04-18-2008, 07:54 AM

I am currently stuck on my 2 drop however. I see it as a choice between Magma Jet and Manamorphose (MM). The question for me is, Magma Jet does the damage and you fix your next draw, MM gives you the card now, but does no damage, but may well net you more damage. I am really struggling with this one. Any ideas?

They do different things. Manamorph is a turn 2 cantrip/bauble. Compared to Street Wraith, it can be countered more easily but saves you 2 health (which for me has proven to be significant). Magma Jet is an inefficient burn spell that happens to sculpt your topdeck. It's been said that Magma Jet and Baubles are incompatible, but I'm thinking of running 4 Jets and 4 morphs in my next iteration of burn. I do not anticipate that they will conflict too much, but I'll likely drop morphs before Jets if I Bauble into Jet and Scry into Bauble too often. I've always been pro-Jet though, so take it with a grain of salt. :tongue:

Regarding the sideboard artifact destruction, I think the counterspell-dodging effect and casting/targeting flexibility of Shattering Spree is more important than the 3 damage. When I side in artifact destruction, it's to save my ass against a must-kill artifact, and the extra security that it will resolve plus the multi-shattering of Stax gear is more important to me than the 3 damage.

Nihil Credo

04-18-2008, 08:24 AM

Regarding the sideboard artifact destruction, I think the counterspell-dodging effect and casting/targeting flexibility of Shattering Spree is more important than the 3 damage. When I side in artifact destruction, it's to save my ass against a must-kill artifact, and the extra security that it will resolve plus the multi-shattering of Stax gear is more important to me than the 3 damage.
What decks play must-kill artifacts (Chalice, equipment... anything else?) and countermagic? I can only think of Faerie Stompy, which doesn't see much play.

yankeedave

04-18-2008, 08:42 AM

What decks play must-kill artifacts (Chalice, equipment... anything else?) and countermagic? I can only think of Faerie Stompy, which doesn't see much play.

AfFOWnity? There are always things to look out for. And I would rather play more burn on t3 than 3 if I can help it.

Hmm, I wonder about running MM and Magma Jet, seems like a nice plan and I dont like the Street Wraiths either, this is a fragile enough deck as it is, without doing your opponents job for them.

Yankee

sunshine

04-18-2008, 09:06 AM

I haven't played with this deck in more than a handful of tourneys, but it seems to me that the biggest must kill artifact is Chalice at 1. Smash to Smithereens definatley shines here given its 2cc and the fact that it doesn't really set you far back in the damage race.

Illissius

04-18-2008, 10:17 AM

Vexing Shusher is the only card so far which can answer both Chalice and Counterbalance and doesn't require a splash (other than, um, Nevinyrral's Disk and Apocalypse). Given they're likely to side out their removal, all the better.

Clark Kant

04-18-2008, 01:09 PM

What would you cut from my list to make room for the Vexing Shusher.

18 Mountain

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress

4 Spark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith

Sideboard Cards
4 Flamebreak
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Price of Progress
2 Ankh of Mishra

What I love about how my sideboard is currently set up is, all the sideboard cards deal tons of damage too. It makes the deck very focused.

Vexing Shusher on the other hand is very mana hungry, eats up times, doesn't deal damage, and is vulnerable to removal.

RoddyVR

04-18-2008, 02:41 PM

I've been trying to figure this out, and it just doenst add up.

Why do people keep saying vexing shusher is mana hungry?
its not like you have to give every one of your spells uncouterability. Dont even have to do it for every spell that you absolutely need to not be countered. You only have to activate his ability in response to counterspells.
Or am i missing something here?

technogeek5000

04-18-2008, 03:31 PM

Your right... he doesnt make your spells cost more. As long as you have at least 1 mana open when you cast a burn spell he acts as a pseudo-make all your spells uncounterable.

Sanguine Voyeur

04-18-2008, 03:34 PM

Not against Counterbalance. Whether or the spell is countered or not is decided upon resolution of the trigger. By that time you can't play the ability.

deviant

04-18-2008, 03:35 PM

You have to play "off-the-curve". You know, leave that one mana up for the ability.
Also, smash to smithereens (?) is probably the best one for chalice-1, mostly because it's synergistic with the rest of the deck, and the case of chalice at 1&2 can be an accepted loss, you can't have it all now can you?

It also trashes trinisphere if need be, shusher does nothing against that. It does die easily though. (slogger and jitte come to mind, and against burn jitte is collecting counters quite a lot anyway..)

technogeek5000

04-18-2008, 05:50 PM

It also trashes trinisphere if need be, shusher does nothing against that. It does die easily though. (slogger and jitte come to mind, and against burn jitte is collecting counters quite a lot anyway..)

Shusher seems like it should be a sideboard card anyways. So why would you board it in against decks running Umezawa's jitte. Also i dont think it should go in against D stompy because Shattering spree or smash to smithereens work better gainst them.

Happy Gilmore

04-18-2008, 06:12 PM

So your willing to play Shusher to stop counterbalance, effectivly playind a Sphere of resistance on yourself. Great plan...

If your so worried about CB just board Krosan Grip. Alteast its a permanent answer that doesn't give your oppenents outs like "lightning bolt targeting shusher" And yes, if you have 5 red mana open and can cast both shusher and a huge price of progress, they are likely going to die. But if you have five lands you have probably lost anyway.

technogeek5000

04-18-2008, 07:32 PM

So your willing to play Shusher to stop counterbalance, effectivly playind a Sphere of resistance on yourself. Great plan...

Well its either that or lose to one of the most played synergies in magic. Take your pick

raharu

04-18-2008, 08:02 PM

Well its either that or lose to one of the most played synergies in magic. Take your pick
Or play Krosan Grip. That works fine, just fine (and isn't as mana intensive).

Poron

04-18-2008, 09:33 PM

that goblin isn't very useful

1) it's just a SB card
2) it's useful just against Counterbalance and CotV or counter decks in general, but it doesn't work against Umezawa's Jitte.

Since we have just 15 slots in SB I would never drop my 4x Shattering Spree for this goblin. SP is faster, works on Jitte, Chalice, Trinisphere, and so on.

The only point in favour of VS is just the CB matchup...

Curby

04-21-2008, 07:21 PM

I haven't played against Chalice much (thankfully) but I'm wondering how often you'd face 2 chalices. In other words, how likely is it that your opponent would chalice for 1+2 quickly? Also, most burn decks have more 2-drops that 1-drops (I think... we're restricted to Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, and to a small extent Shard Volley) so why wouldn't they set the first Chalice at 2? Most decks that run Chalices can do that by the second turn. It would take a smart opponent to realize that this nullifies more burn AND gives more resilience against artifact hate, but we should expect opponents to be smart when designing our decks.

Artifact-heavy decks include Death and Taxes, Stax, Angel/Dragon/Faerie Stompy, and Affinity. Resilience to countermagic aside, I'm torn between the desire to kill multiple artifacts with a single Spree or do an extra 3 damage.

If you're considering Vexing Shusher in spite of all the drawbacks, why not take another look at Boseiju? Most of our spells will have a colorless component, so the question is whether we can afford the life loss.

How many of you play burn in casual, creature-heavy environments? I've been running 4 Flamebreak in the main and 2x Pyroclasm/Cave-In in the side since the beginning, and have found them to be very desirable if not essential to my meta. Kent's build puts the breaks in the side though. How do the rest of you divide your sweepers between the main and side?

yankeedave

04-22-2008, 07:12 AM

How many of you play burn in casual, creature-heavy environments? I've been running 4 Flamebreak in the main and 2x Pyroclasm/Cave-In in the side since the beginning, and have found them to be very desirable if not essential to my meta. Kent's build puts the breaks in the side though. How do the rest of you divide your sweepers between the main and side?

My Meta is pretty varied and you never know what you are going to be up against, so I would be tempted to run 3 Flamebreak MD and then a couple of Cave-In in the SB for really heavy creature decks, but that is a personal choice. I would try to stay away from Pyroclasm, as Cave-In can let you tap out and still do damage to your opponent :)

I was also wondering about the Shusher. They are already selling for about $18 - $20 each here (London UK) so they are a big spend on a deck that is actually pretty budget otherwise and it is not tested yet. I would rather hold off for a couple of months until they are more available and proven.

Thehunter820

04-22-2008, 09:48 AM

raharu

04-23-2008, 11:36 PM

Personally, I only go 2-3 flamebreaks main if I know there will be creature heavy decks, the rest of the breaks go in SB, and that's about it, unless they can out damage you, the amount of creatures on the field is irrelevant, sweep em once or possibly even twice and they're heavily crippled, but if you're worried about the creatures its a tough game anyways.
What do you do about early/ mid-game Termogoyf clock? Personally, I'd Bolt the... WHOA, WHOA, WHOA! Let's avoid the racist terms.

-PR... out of an early 'Goyf because it's that meanacing of a clock, but I'm wondering as to the opinion of more experienced players.

Jak

04-23-2008, 11:42 PM

Racist stupidity.

WTF man?

Yes, WTF? Why didn't you report this post instead of just quoting it?

-PR

Thehunter820

04-25-2008, 12:49 PM

What do you do about early/ mid-game Termogoyf clock? Personally, I'd Bolt the ******tits out of an early 'Goyf because it's that meanacing of a clock, but I'm wondering as to the opinion of more experienced players.

Well if they drop it as a 2/3 ill bolt the shit out of it, but if its any bigger your best bet would be to race rather than dumping your hand on it in most cases.

yankeedave

04-25-2008, 02:35 PM

Personally, I only go 2-3 flamebreaks main if I know there will be creature heavy decks, the rest of the breaks go in SB, and that's about it, unless they can out damage you, the amount of creatures on the field is irrelevant, sweep em once or possibly even twice and they're heavily crippled, but if you're worried about the creatures its a tough game anyways.

To be honest, if I can catch it in a Flamebreak and maybe one bolt, then fine, otherwise, i am just gonna go BOOM HEADSHOT like I always have. This deck is about virtual card advantage and dropping card after card for that Goofy aint gonna make me win and lets him do other stuff. I can't contiually worry about it, otherwise I will go mad :) Hunter is right here.

Yankee

bigbear102

04-25-2008, 02:55 PM

Thehunter820

04-25-2008, 03:08 PM

Personally i'd much rather have a chalice at 2 on me than a chalice at 1, heres my average list

Lightning bolt
Rift bolt
Chain Lightning
Lava spike

All the aboves as a 4 of, and Shard Volley maybe as a 2 of.

2 mana spells are

Magma Jet
Flame Rift
Keldon Mauraders

with more 1 targets I would much perfer it be set to 2.

Dilettante

04-25-2008, 03:18 PM

Rift bolt

Rift Bolt ignores Chalice at 1...

Curby

04-25-2008, 05:28 PM

Wallace

04-25-2008, 07:02 PM

Setting Chalice at 1 makes it harder for the burn player to win. It slows our clock down so that we can only play 1 spell per turn, instead of possibly 2-3 if they set it at 2. I think the more important reason Chalice @ 1 is a better early play is because if they go Chalice @ 2, then they can't play a Chalice @1 after that.

QFT...This deck has a really hard time with COTV...You have to play around it or just prey you don't see it played.

Valid points, thanks for that. Would that be enough for you to switch to Smash to Smithereens in the burn sideboard next week, or would you keep Sprees? I'm still on the fence.

Also, what do you think about my cantrip analysis at curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm? Basically, it seems that Manamorphose is the least hurtful cantrip to run.

Stick with the Spree's, Smash to Smithereens is nice but I will trade being able to destroy multiple artifacts for 3 damage any day.

I have been running Manamorphose as a 4 of and find it to work out just fine. The only problem I have with it is when you are playing off the top and draw a land off of the cantrip and burn for 2...

Shusher will be really good in this deck, I have been testing with him in the MB as well as the SB. I think a 4 of in the SB is the best place for him, side him in for the 3 Flamebreak and 1 other spell. He wrecks CB and laughs at FoW, yeah he is easy to kill, but while your opponent is spending resources on killing the Shusher, you are throwing burn at there face. Give him a try, you won't regret it...

Michael Keller

04-25-2008, 08:59 PM

Stick with the Spree's, Smash to Smithereens is nice but I will trade being able to destroy multiple artifacts for 3 damage any day.

Crash is another fine selection.

Wallace

04-25-2008, 09:14 PM

Crash is another fine selection.

Yeah if I had to choose between all of the red Artifact removal I would probably go...

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/GPT/en-us/Card97233.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=97233#)>http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/MM/en-us/Card19616.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=19616#)>http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/SHM/EN/Card158243.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=158243#) >http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/EX/en-us/Card5221.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=5221#)>http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/10E/EN/Card130532.jpg (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=130532#)

bigbear102

04-26-2008, 12:51 AM

I agree with Sac's list of artifact kill, but he is forgetting about Meltdown. If you expect lots of Affinity or Stax, Meltdown is the way to go. Shattering Spree is good if you are expecting counters, but I would say Meltdown is better if you are worried about non-blue decks packing artifacts. It always will kill chalice, and any other pesky artifacts that are laying around. Shattering Spree is probably the better choice in an unknown meta though.

Nihil Credo

04-26-2008, 06:38 AM

I agree with Sac's list of artifact kill, but he is forgetting about Meltdown. If you expect lots of Affinity or Stax, Meltdown is the way to go.
In Burn? No fucking way.

Against Stax, Meltdown will only take out Chalices and Moxes unless you get to four mana. That's awfully hard to do, especially when peppered by Armageddons and Smokestacks.

Against Affinity, Meltdown is close to GG if you get to three lands, but if you can't you risk leaving them with a BIG Ravager. Shattering Spree is less of a blowout for 3+ mana, but it can still reduce their clock to a whimper for 1-2 mana.

Moreover, two copies of Meltdown are either both dead (if you're mana short) or redundant. Two copies of Shattering Spree are great.

kaasblokje

04-27-2008, 06:01 AM

Finn

04-27-2008, 07:47 AM

I like Smash to Smithereens because it does not take burn spell out of your arsenal. Burn is toast the minute it goes on the defensive, and this spell goes a long way to preventing that. Just think of all of the artifacts you can kill off that were once out of the question simply because you will be siding it in more often.

yankeedave

04-27-2008, 03:32 PM

SB
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 pyroclasm
4 shattering spree
3 blood moon
3 tormod's crypt

I would rather see Cave-In or Flamebreak in your Pyroclasm slot as they give you damage on your opponent. I would also run Pyrostatic Pillar instead of Blood Moon, as it screws over combo and you have nothing against it otherwise :)

Yankee

Curby

04-28-2008, 11:09 AM

4 incinerate

3 spark elemental
4 mogg fanatic

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you might try Manamorphose instead of Incinerate or Spark Elemental. Also, I really like Keldon Marauders a lot more than Mogg Fanatic. It does 5 more often than you'd expect. =)

Finn: That's a good point regarding utility vs raw power. While Spree is more powerful artifact destruction, I'd be willing to side in Smithereens more often for marginal situations, e.g. for killing Vials and the like.

Wallace

04-28-2008, 12:33 PM

hey,
i am working on my burndeck for gp BRUSSEL
this is what i gave now

19 mountain

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
2 shard volley
4 Price of progress
4 magma jet
4 Fireblast
4 incinerate

3 spark elemental
4 Mogg fanatic

SB
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 pyroclasm
4 shattering spree
3 blood moon
3 tormod's crypt

Spark Elemental is terrible and like kirbysdl said, Keldon Marauders are a fine choice over Mogg Fanatic. Mogg Fanatic is only guaranteed to do 1 damage if it resolves, on avg it will do 2-3, if you cast it turn 1. Keldon Marauders will always do 3 if they resolve but most of the time can get in there for 5. Spark Elemental is ok but if you don't cast it turn 1, or your opponent has a Tarmogoyf it will be doing nothing. Not to mention that Playing creatures at all in burn is risky because all of the creature removal spells your opponent will be playing will tear them up.

Manamorphose is is a nice thinner, its better than Street Wraith and the Baubles because 1. It doesn't cost you 2 life and 2. doesn't put an Artifact or Creature into the graveyard to make Goyf bigger...

Blood Moon really isn't needed, I would run either Vexing Shusher or Pyroblast in that slot. I would also try finding room for Flamebreak in the main and Barbarian Ring would also be a nice addition...

Man why do I feel like I type this same advice every week? :tongue:

yankeedave

04-28-2008, 12:37 PM

Man why do I feel like I type this same advice every week? :tongue:

I think that is because you actually do, but its a long thread, not everyone will read it all :cool:

Yankee

JohnnyCage

04-28-2008, 03:53 PM

So is fork completely out? I dont see any reason why it is unusable? What are the pros and cons of it?

Nihil Credo

04-28-2008, 03:59 PM

So is fork completely out? I dont see any reason why it is unusable? What are the pros and cons of it?
Pros: Sometimes it rules.
Cons: Mostly it blows.

raharu

04-28-2008, 04:02 PM

So is fork completely out? I dont see any reason why it is unusable? What are the pros and cons of it?
Pros: 8 damage with fireblast

Cons: terrible top-deck, bad with anything not Fireblast (unles you are one of the few brave enough to run Browbeat), doesn't really do anything until the late game (turns 4-5 wne you should have either won or should be really close), and did I mention it's bad with everything in the deck not named Fireblast?

Clark Kant

04-28-2008, 04:02 PM

I am not convinced that all the Spark Elemental hate is based on actually trying the card.

Your main complaint against the card is that it's useless with a Goyf in play. That is completely untrue. It is useless on the turn that Goyf is played but that is it.

What player will choose to not attack with Goyf and leave it as a blocker incase you play Spark Elemental?

Goyf and big creatures in general attack every turn when they don't see any potential blockers.

Which means that your opponent's creatures will be tapped most turns and you can easily deal 3 damage with Spark Elemental.

Being vulnerable to removal is a fair point. But the same can be said of Keldon Marauders and taht's not a reason not to run him.

If you are worried about removal, just play Spark Elemental on a turn that your opponent is tapped out. It's really not hard to do. Your deck is a 4 turn clock. Odds are, your opponent will be tapped out most of those first 4 turns.

I agree Manamorphormise in insane in this deck, and imho belongs in pretty much every single deck with access to red or green mana. 56 card decks are always better than 60 card decks.

Why do you say Blood Moon isn't needed? It is a metagame choice really. But if meta is filled with fetches and duals, Blood Moon is insanely broken in this deck, just as broken as it is in Dragon Stompy.

conboy31

04-28-2008, 04:03 PM

Just given Forks nature it is a tad precarious. As a topdeck it can be mild and is poor when you are out of gas.

Although, I have found it to be a bomb when cloning price of progress and fireblast. It gets tough when a deck has a single copy of the card because it does not provide any consistency or reliability. If the deck could somehow attain card draw I think it would improve fork by copying the draw or getting more targets to double. But given the current card pool, that is not feasible.

Curby

04-28-2008, 07:14 PM

So is fork completely out? I dont see any reason why it is unusable? What are the pros and cons of it?

As others have said, it's pretty much completely out. You can compare it to Needle Drop, which would be really cool if it didn't depend on other damage being dealt. Topdecking a Needle Drop is like topdecking a Fork. Topdecking a Needle Drop followed by a Mountain is like topdecking a Fork followed by a Mountain.

Your main complaint against the card is that it's useless with a Goyf in play. That is completely untrue. It is useless on the turn that Goyf is played but that is it.

My main complaint against the card is that it isn't better than Keldon Marauders or any other card that I run. Specifically, any creature we consider for purposes of damage should have four things:

1) decent toughness so it won't fall to Mogg Fanatic, Tundra Wolf, etc.
2) decent power so it can be a combat threat and bring fatties into bolt range
3) cheap cost (preferably a 1- or 2-drop)
4) guaranteed damage so removal doesn't completely invalidate it

Now, about our choices:

Keldon Marauders: 1+2+3+4
Mogg Fanatic: 3+4
Spark Elemental: 2+3
Ball Lightning: 2+(kinda 3)

Which means that your opponent's creatures will be tapped most turns and you can easily deal 3 damage with Spark Elemental.

Even in a developed Legacy meta and especially in a more casual meta that burn will more likely see play in, creature swarms are prevalent, meaning that many decks will be putting a creature (or more) into play every turn. Creatures that are bigger than you, that have tricks like first strike, protection, and otherwise eat up your 3/1 while suffering no losses. Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Slivers, White Weenie variants, etc. are all strong possibilities in any given tourney.

Being vulnerable to removal is a fair point. But the same can be said of Keldon Marauders and taht's not a reason not to run him.

Not really, because of the relative ease of killing a 1-toughness, non-first striking, non-evasive, non-Protected creature that doesn't deal damage aside from the combat phase, in which according to the preceding list of descriptors it is rather weak. (5 commas!)

Most of your arguments in support of Spark Elemental could be made for Ball Lightning. If the 1 toughness, vulnerability to removal, and lack of guaranteed damage aren't a problem, why not run Ball Lightning? While damage per mana is important, we don't have draw so damage per card is also important, and taking nearly a third of their life total for 3 mana is very sexy indeed.

It's true that I haven't tested it, and in general that by itself is a strike against any argument I could put forth. At the same time, I haven't yet heard any argument for the card that makes me want to even consider it. Especially now with Manamorphose, the deck list is getting tighter, and it just doesn't seem like Spark Elemental can take the place of any other card.