[Deck] Burn [Archive] - Page 3

Wallace

04-28-2008, 07:47 PM

...Being vulnerable to removal is a fair point. But the same can be said of Keldon Marauders and taht's not a reason not to run him...

Spark Elemental is terrible and like kirbysdl said, Keldon Marauders are a fine choice...Keldon Marauders will always do 2 damage if they resolve but most of the time can get in there for 5. Spark Elemental is ok but if you don't cast it turn 1, or your opponent has a Tarmogoyf it will be doing nothing. Not to mention that Playing creatures at all in burn is risky because all of the creature removal spells your opponent will be playing will tear them up. :tongue:

Keldon Marauders will always do at least 2 damage if they resolve. There are no guarantees when Spark Elemental resolves. I have tested Sparky Elemental, a lot, and it is terrible. They were eaten up by Pro Red, First Strike, STP's, Tarmogoyf's, Mogg Fanatic's, Fire//Ice, and many other cards common to the Format.

As far as Blood Moon goes I don't like it in Burn. Your opponent is already playing around your PoP's and looking for basic land. Burn puts it's opponent on a short clock a :2::r: spell that deals no damage really doesn't fit. I said a few posts back, "I would Rather play Molten Rain then Blood Moon, in Burn. (not that I will be playing either)" At least with Molten Rain you will be dealing 2 damage and destroying a mana source.

Curby

04-29-2008, 12:20 AM

I'm a little concerned about boarding Vexing Shusher. A 2/2 that can't protect itself from Swords, Smother, Edict, or Bolt seems pretty sketchy in a meta that guarantees tons of them (i.e. anywhere Legacy is played). Is the idea that Counter-heavy/Chalice-heavy decks will side out all of their creature removal as we side in Shusher? Can someone who's tested Shusher extensively comment on it?

Assuming that creature-specific removal is sided out, opposing burn would be the real threat to him, and (I think) the only deck with Bolts and Countertop is UGr Thresh. Opposing Chalice+removal decks (I guess Oblivion Ring is the only threat and even that would be sided out against us though) could be a problem.

I agree that Shusher's ability is better than Boseiju's, but I worry for the little guy's survival.

Sims

04-29-2008, 12:39 AM

I don't really like shusher much, it has that whole "i'm a creature that dies and doesn't do something unless it sticks around" thing going for it. Fanatic does damage either way. Marauder does damage either way. Even Grim usually does damage either way (for less mana).... Shusher? Eh, run Boseiju and eat a land drop instead of an easier to kill perm. And beyond that...

Blood Moon? Come on now guys...

This post may not contain MUCH content, but it does contain this:

You're playing burn. You aren't trying to disrupt their mana base to stall. You're trying to kill them before Blood Moon would really hurt them. Don't disrupt, Go to the Dome.

Wallace

04-29-2008, 10:54 AM

You're playing burn. You aren't trying to disrupt their mana base to stall. You're trying to kill them before Blood Moon would really hurt them. Don't disrupt, Go to the Dome.

Thank you, finally someone agrees with me...

JohnnyCage

04-29-2008, 04:31 PM

Ok, so now i know this will take some heat but seriously we should consider Scent of Cinder, meddling mage isn't being ran anymore and it is potentially 5 damage for two.

HdH_Cthulhu

04-29-2008, 06:20 PM

But it is one of the scaryest topdecks ever.
Sorry Scent of Cinder you are dismissed!

bigbear102

04-29-2008, 06:56 PM

Yeah, Scent of Cinder was not excused because of Meddling Mage. It pretty much just isn't good.

Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and Vexing Shusher do not belong in burn. None of them deal enough damage to justify their slots, and the first two cost too much for what they do.

Curby

04-29-2008, 11:36 PM

Ok, so now i know this will take some heat but seriously we should consider Scent of Cinder, meddling mage isn't being ran anymore and it is potentially 5 damage for two.

Wouldn't it potentially be 7 if you're sitting on a handful of burn and then draw Scent?

Anyway, as others have said you don't just look at the potential in burn, you look at the consistency and guaranteed damage. If potential were all that mattered, Ball Lightning (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=228260&postcount=500) would be the best creature for burn, and every list would run four Browbeats (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=201584&postcount=253).

The least consistent card most burn decks run is Price of Progress, which has both greater potential and greater consistency than Scent of Cinder.

Pltnmngl

04-30-2008, 10:53 AM

So...what's the deal with sac' lands? Should they be used or no?

Wallace

04-30-2008, 11:06 AM

So...what's the deal with sac' lands? Should they be used or no?

Do you mean fetch lands? I used to play them, they were a nice deck thinner. I have since dropped them and just run 16 mountains and 3 Barb. Rings...It's really personal preference.

Curby

04-30-2008, 06:01 PM

Do you mean fetch lands? I used to play them, they were a nice deck thinner. I have since dropped them and just run 16 mountains and 3 Barb. Rings...It's really personal preference.

I thought the whole fetch-as-statistically-meaningful-thinner argument was pretty well beaten up already, but people are still calling them a nice thinner. You'll likely only draw 12 cards in a game when playing burn, of which fetch thinning can affect 5. You'll likely see 1-3 fetches, so less than half of what you draw in a game will be affected by thinning 1-3 cards from a 53-ish card deck. I agree that it thins the deck, but it'll not be anything significant enough to overcome the noise of lucky vs unlucky topdecks.

Fetches CAN be useful for getting Thresh for Barb Ring. This is one of the two reasons why I'm running Manamorphose.* A problem I found in my first round of testing (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=203999) is that I'm already dealing 20+ damage by the time I reach Thresh (7*3=21), so filling the yard more quickly helps Barb Ring pull its weight and kill my opp.

At the same time, by using fetches you open yourself to Stifle tricks, you cripple your manabase against Stax, you triple (or more) the cost of actually building the deck, and oh by the way between Flame Rift, Barb Ring, Flamebreak, and the opponent trying to kill you you're almost dead anyway, so more suicide for ONLY negligible thinning isn't a good idea. If you're using it to shuffle the library, to generate Thresh, etc., then you have to argue that separately.

* It also replaces the least effective burn in my deck: Incinerate.

Ok everyone, it's time for math! And rambling!

Here's a problem with Manamorphose. When I added 4 Manamorphose I went down from 20 land to 19 (19/56 is roughly 20/60), but Manamorphose isn't a Bauble: it needs mana to be cast, meaning that the effective size of the deck goes down, but you still need that starting investment of mana to cast all of your cards.

Example: If you draw a Mountain, a Fireblast, a Price of Progress, and 4 Baubles, you can reasonably expect to Bauble into another land. It's not guaranteed, but then that's why I don't run Baubles (it's hard to know when to mulligan). Replace the Baubles with Manamorphoses in that picture and you're even more screwed: you must topdeck a Mountain to do anything. You need a decent number of land in the deck to guarantee getting 2 in your opener (I don't think 1-land openers are playable in burn), but decreasing land for Manamorphose works counter to that goal.

If you run Manamorphose without decreasing the land count, there's a smaller chance that you'll topdeck useful burn. Let's start with a hypothetical 20 land, 40 burn deck. We replace some inefficient burn with Manamorphose without decreasing the land count: 20/36/4. Manamorphose will eventually cantrip into land or burn, so the deck is roughly 21.3/38.7, and thus the chances of topdecking gas are down. If we went to 19 lands, it would be 19/37/4 >> 20.4/39.6, which roughly equals the original 20/40 deck but weakens the viability of our openers because they'll tend to be land-light.

In the end, I'll probably still run Manamorphose, but I'm stuck between having a 20-land, fewer-mulling, weaker-topdecking deck and a 19-land, mull-happy, stronger-topdecking deck. I'm also thinking this rant hasn't made much sense to anyone at all.:tongue:

Sims

04-30-2008, 10:49 PM

Fetching doesn't really thin much, however it's a good shuffle effect to get crap land draws off the top of your library, feeds thresh for ring, and feeds Grim for those that play him.

bigbear102

04-30-2008, 11:33 PM

Arguing that shuffling takes lands off the top of your library implies that you know they are there, which means that you are playing Baubles. With baubles you should def. play fetches, without them shuffling is completely random seeing as you will shuffle away good cards more often than lands.

Wallace

04-30-2008, 11:35 PM

Nihil Credo

05-01-2008, 04:53 AM

without them shuffling is completely random seeing as you will shuffle away good cards more often than lands.
Technically, you will also shuffle back good cards more often than lands (very slightly more, in fact, due to -1 lands in your library).

Just nitpicking; deck thinning on its own is a terrible reason to play fetchlands.

Pltnmngl

05-01-2008, 02:28 PM

Technically, you will also shuffle back good cards more often than lands (very slightly more, in fact, due to -1 lands in your library).

Just nitpicking; deck thinning on its own is a terrible reason to play fetchlands.

True. So how many mountains should someone play without fetches?

Sims

05-01-2008, 02:41 PM

I probably should have specified that the 'Shuffling away lands' option was pretty specific to certain lists and situations in which you are actually going to know what's on the top of your library (I know a person who played artifact-ankh-burn with Divining Top, for instance... or baubles) but the other points of feeding Grim and Rings (if played) were still valid.

If you are not running Grim, Barbarian ring, or baubles....Then no, you likely don't need fetches.

Curby

05-01-2008, 04:58 PM

True. So how many mountains should someone play without fetches?

This is a question I've been grappling with, as my rambling above shows. I think i'm going to settle on 19 land, 2-3 of which are Barbarian Rings. However, the answer is different for everyone, and depends on the number of 3-drops (3 for me), Fireblasts (4)/Shard Volleys (2), and Baubles (0)/cantrips (4) you run.

Thehunter820

05-02-2008, 03:22 PM

Personally I go with 18 mountains 2 are Barbarian Rings, Occasionally 3 depending on the list, and no fetches.

Curby

05-02-2008, 04:04 PM

Personally I go with 18 mountains 2 are Barbarian Rings, Occasionally 3 depending on the list, and no fetches.

Huh? Did you mean 18 land, 2 of which are Rings? Or 18 Mountains + 2-3 Rings? 21 land seems like a lot to run even with Volleys and Fireblasts.

bigbear102

05-02-2008, 05:07 PM

Kirby, you mention that you play 4 cantrips, what would they be? I can only really think of Manamorphose, which I don't like in this deck for the same reason I don't like Baubles or Wraith.

Curby

05-02-2008, 05:33 PM

Kirby, you mention that you play 4 cantrips, what would they be? I can only really think of Manamorphose, which I don't like in this deck for the same reason I don't like Baubles or Wraith.

3-drops (3 for me), Fireblasts (4)/Shard Volleys (2), and Baubles (0)/cantrips (4) you run.

I run a total of 4/60 cantrips, namely 4x Manamorphose. I wouldn't dare run 12x 3-drops or 16x Fireblasts in my burn deck. :wink:

If you don't like Manamorphose, I can understand. However, if you don't like Manamorphose for the same reasons as Baubles, then it seems like you might need to reconsider the downsides of each (http://curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm). Manamorphose still isn't ideal, but for entirely different reasons. In short, Manamorphose can only be said to replace a burn spell because it costs mana to cast, but Baubles replce generic cards by truly lowering the size of the deck. If you treat Manamorphose as a deck size reducer and lower the number of lands in your deck, you'll get more unusable hands because you'll have hands with a land and a bunch of 2-drops (incl. Manamorphose) that cannot replace themselves until you get more land.

As for Wraith, I like it a lot and would run it over Manamorphose if I could afford the life loss. With Flame Rift, Flamebreak, Ring, and opposing aggro, I'm usually pretty low on life when I win.

PS: Don't tease. :tongue: What sort of manabase do you use, and what are your numbers for the above spell types?

TheRock

05-03-2008, 10:46 AM

Wallace

05-03-2008, 12:31 PM

Personally, I'm starting to really like Manamorphose. Against Wasteland decks, it's an additional and helpful way to run additional colors in Burn without getting screwed. It probably isn't going to get countered much against decks packing Snare either. I hate having PoP actually do damage to me, but the card is still way too good not to run anyway.

I haven't been able to test much as of late with my new job, but I'll throw something like a skeleton out there just to illustrate what I mean and what I've seen in my testing so far:

Lands (17)
8 fetches
1 Plateau
1 other dual (for SB cards)
7 Mountain

Creatures (4)
4 Mogg Fanatic

Slot Takers (8)
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Manamorphose

Spells (31)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
1 Shard Volley
2 Shock

4 Lightning Helix
3 Flame Rift
2 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

Any thoughts or complaints about it?

EDIT: I haven't tested Ring for this deck yet - darn, I knew there was something I forogt.

1 white source for 4x white cards, in a format that has Wasteland? Not really a good idea, as a matter of fact Lightning Helix isn't really needed. You have so many mono-red burn spells to choose from why run white at all? Run incinerate over helix if you are looking for a 2cc, 3 damage spell.

Mogg Fanatic is ok but Keldon Marauders is so much better, fanatic, if resolved is only guaranteed to do 1 damage. Marauders, if resolved, will always do 2, even if STP'ed.

Price of Progress is a powerhouse in most Meta's, I run 3 in the main and 1 in the SB, you may want to up the count. Shock is an ok choice, I have been wanting to test it for a while now and haven't had the chance. The only other card I can suggest is Magma Jet, it is only 2 damage for :1::r: but the Scry 2 comes in handy most of the time. Hope this helps...

TheRock

05-03-2008, 03:12 PM

Sacearuse: Right now, it's currently 13 sources. The 8 fetchlands will work and Manamorphose turns 1R into RW into Helix. 4 white cards to play when 4 sources only work once may not be the right call no matter what color(s) are run though - I may just replace a Helix with a PoP and call it a day.

13 isn't that high of a number either.

Shock is just a one-drop that works with a turn 1 Bauble. I don't love the card but it sure is an efficient spell - I wouldn't run it if I wasn't running Bauble though. I'll also look into the Marauders too.

GGoober

05-04-2008, 06:00 PM

I'm a little iffy about playing Helix, although it's such a great card. It requires us to give up our stable mana base and makes it susceptible to Wastelands/Moon (killing the 4 Helix slot).

Actually, I was wondering if running Skullscorch is viable in this deck. It's usually most often 2 mana for 4 damage, and in mid-late games (turn 3-4), they should act like Hymn to Tourachs after the damage you've dealt to opponents. Taking 2 cards at random is always helpful for a deck that has no answer to control/combo. Just wondering, but I do know that the card is bad itself, but I'm not sure if it's much better in this deck that abuses damage fast.

Team-Hero

05-04-2008, 06:56 PM

I'm a little iffy about playing Helix, although it's such a great card. It requires us to give up our stable mana base and makes it susceptible to Wastelands/Moon (killing the 4 Helix slot).

I agree with the Wasteland part of your argument, but I wouldn't worry about the Moon cards. If the opponent plays a Bloodmoon or MagusMoon, I'd figure he just wasted his turn and a card. I'd actually expect the opponent to side out the Moon cards on the 2nd and 3rd game.

Curby

05-05-2008, 09:22 AM

Actually, I was wondering if running Skullscorch is viable in this deck. It's usually most often 2 mana for 4 damage, and in mid-late games (turn 3-4), they should act like Hymn to Tourachs after the damage you've dealt to opponents. Taking 2 cards at random is always helpful for a deck that has no answer to control/combo. Just wondering, but I do know that the card is bad itself, but I'm not sure if it's much better in this deck that abuses damage fast.

Probably not, for the same reason we don't run Browbeat. Except in this case, your argument doesn't hold up. In the late game, some aggro decks will have expended their hand already, and this will be a dead card.

Thehunter820

05-05-2008, 12:46 PM

Huh? Did you mean 18 land, 2 of which are Rings? Or 18 Mountains + 2-3 Rings? 21 land seems like a lot to run even with Volleys and Fireblasts.

Yea, my bad, 18 lands, 2-3 rings. Also, I agree with kirbysdl I wouldnt run skullscorch, however there are worse choices.

RoddyVR

05-07-2008, 11:35 AM

Curby

05-07-2008, 11:58 AM

I realy like the idea of a burn deck drawing cards, so i would like to try the following list (once i get the manamorphoses and street wraiths). I'd like to get some advice on the 2drop spot, and also on the mana base (how many mountains+rings (and possible inclusion of a single Keldon Megaliths)).

Edit: I dont main PoP, cause i rarely play this deck in the actual tournaments i go to, its more of a backup deck for "for fun" games. and so a lot of decks i play this against arent the dual heavy decks in the DTB. If i was gonna play it in a tournament that would probably be the 2drop (or atleast some of thos 4 cards would be).

First of all, I wouldn't recommend it. But as long as you're moving in this direction, I'd run fetches to further your deck-thinning and draw-heavy design. You say that you play this in a casual environment, so I don't expect you to get Stifled much. =P

Then as long as you're running fetches, I'd run some Plateaus so you can use Helix in the main and Disenchant in the side. Also, Megaliths in a draw-heavy deck? You'll never see Hellbent! On the other hand, you'll get Thresh very quickly so run more Barbarian Rings. Ring/Fetch/Wraith damage will be offset a bit by the Helixes.

Needle Drop is actually kind of interesting in this deck... I wonder if the rest of the draw effects will keep you stocked with threats so you'll be able to play it consistently. Keep in mind that topdecking a Needle Drop is a Timewalk for the opp!

In a casual environment, Keldon Marauders are great, as is Flamebreak. Don't run Magma Jet in a Bauble/Cantrip-heavy design because often you'll just Scry into cantrips, which gives you no useful information anyway.

Cire

05-08-2008, 11:28 AM

I know a bunch of you aren't into the draw spells in burn, but i added all of them... yeah all of them to the deck and so far it's pretty good. Gold fishing it almost always wins by turn 4 and The usual critique that top decking into bauble and needle drop sucks, doesn't quite hold anymore because I'm pretty much drawing 2 to 3 cards per turn and unless i draw into 2 baubles/needle drop I can handle it. The trick is not to use all you draw spells at once but to use maybe one per turn so each turn you draw at least 2 cards.

Hears my list

12 Mountains
4 Barbarian Ring
-16 land (with 20 draw spells 12 of them are free, it's enough, with all the draw there are some games where I mana flood with 5 lands...which is weird with such a low number of land...)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
-16 1 mana burn spells

4 Keldon Marauders
4 Price of progress.
-8 2 mana burn spells

4 Manamorphose
4 Needle Drop
4 Street wraith
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
-20 draw

Wallace

05-08-2008, 11:34 AM

...
4 Needle Drop
4 Street wraith
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
-20 draw...

I'm not a fan because I have tested it and it sucks. Ask Nightmare what happens when you opponent goes turn1: Fetch, Bauble, Wraith, bolt you, pass, Opponent goes Island Go. Turn 2: Chain Lightning you, Bolt you pass the turn, opponent smiles and goes Tropical Island, 5/6 TARMOGOYF ON TURN 2 WITH NO CARDS IN THERE GRAVEYARD! (Caps and bold for effect) Oh and for good measure he dropped another on on turn 3.

This deck can win without all of the draw, look at the European meta for a while, burn was a DTB. That is all...

Cire

05-08-2008, 11:43 AM

I'm not a fan because I have tested it and it sucks. Ask Nightmare what happens when you opponent goes turn1: Fetch, Bauble, Wraith, bolt you, pass, Opponent goes Island Go. Turn 2: Chain Lightning you, Bolt you pass the turn, opponent smiles and goes Tropical Island, 5/6 TARMOGOYF ON TURN 2 WITH NO CARDS IN THERE GRAVEYARD! (Caps and bold for effect) Oh and for good measure he dropped another on on turn 3.

This deck can win without all of the draw, look at the European meta for a while, burn was a DTB. That is all...

well first of all i don't run fetch's, also i would have played the bauble but save the wraith if i had 3 3dmg spells in my hand, and I would have saved the 2nd bolt that turn. Although 2 goyfs in a row are hard for any deck to deal with i think i would have played it out like this

me
1 - Mountain - bauble - bolt you (opp 17)
opp
1- Island go
me
2 - (assuming you had a 2nd land since you bolted and chained) mountain - draw an extra card from bauble - bolt you ( Opp 14
opp
2- Tropical island - goyf as a 2/3 (artifact + instants in the grave, 3/4 if opponent played fetches)
me
3- assuming its a 2/3 i would chain it then wraith otherwise it really depends on whats in my hand or if the goyf is a 3/4 ....

Basically you claimed it sucked during your testing, while in my testing it was pretty good. I guess only more testing on either end would convince any of us which one is correct, and on that note i will go a do more testing.

Peter_Rotten

05-08-2008, 11:51 AM

3- assuming its a 2/3 i would chain it then wraith otherwise it really depends on whats in my hand or if the goyf is a 3/4 ....

This seems like a rather bad play and would not prevent the loss that Sacearuse was speaking about.

Thehunter820

05-08-2008, 12:22 PM

Yeah it's a hard thing to deal with bet at that point your best bet would probably be to race and hope they dont drop Countertop engine.

Cire

05-08-2008, 02:51 PM

yeah i racing them is probably better. With out disruption you win turn 4, so even against 5/6 goyfs turn 2 and 3 you should win. With disruption, you'll probably lose with 2 goyfs out.

Peter_Rotten

05-08-2008, 02:54 PM

Ugh. I was mentioning that this was a rather bad plan since Chain-ing the 2/3 Goyf would do nothing of relevance. He is 2/3 because of the artifact and instant in the yard. Bolting him with a sorcery ain't that hot.

Clark Kant

05-08-2008, 04:51 PM

Kirby, you mention that you play 4 cantrips, what would they be? I can only really think of Manamorphose, which I don't like in this deck for the same reason I don't like Baubles or Wraith.

Manamorphose is an automatic 4 of in this deck, end of discussion. Comparing it to Baubles is just silly. Baubles make you wait a turn and thus make horrible top decks, manamorphose doesn't. It really has zero drawbacks except for very very rarely mana burning you for two, but that's extremely rare.

Street Wraith is an auto include as well imo unless you plan to play the mirror matchup a lot.

Wallace

05-08-2008, 05:28 PM

well first of all i don't run fetch's, also i would have played the bauble but save the wraith if i had 3 3dmg spells in my hand, and I would have saved the 2nd bolt that turn. Although 2 goyfs in a row are hard for any deck to deal with i think i would have played it out like this...

So a 4/5 Tarmogoyf won't suck for you? This deck can't sit back and wait to burn creatures out, it has to be dropping burn spells early and often. Say you do Bolt a Goyf away, rarely happens, what happens when they drop a 2nd one? Don't waste your burn on creatures, you will lose.

Sims

05-08-2008, 05:37 PM

Manamorphose is an automatic 4 of in this deck, end of discussion. Comparing it to Baubles is just silly. Baubles make you wait a turn and thus make horrible top decks, manamorphose doesn't. It really has zero drawbacks except for very very rarely mana burning you for two, but that's extremely rare.

Street Wraith is an auto include as well imo unless you plan to play the mirror matchup a lot.

That's a pretty bold statement. I don't see anything as an auto include in this deck outside of lightning bolt, chain lightning, magma jet, fireblast ,and mountains.

I have a problem with Manamorphose because it doesn't solve the decks problems and it incurs a lot of problems in mulligan desicions. It's an "eh" topdeck as you filter two mana through and cantrip into.... well, you hope a burn spell. If you end up hitting a land then the card is pretty damned bad. If you do hit a burn spell, then yay, but you could still end up taking 1 or 2 life on the chin if it draws a 1 mana spell or a fireblast. If i have two in my opening hand, well... I suppose on turn two I can chain the two together and that wouldn't be a horrible play, but I'd rather play something substantial there. The problem that I have with the card is that it's a cantrip that adds 2 mana to your mana pool. If this was a red cantrip that said "Draw a card. Untap up to two lands." then I could lean closer to the possibility of an autoinclude. This card is closest to Street Wraith in that it does allow you to run a smaller deck, at the risk of damage and drawing dead off the cantrip. I feel the card is seriously overhyped, as in most situations i'd rather have Magma Jet or Incinerate.

Cire

05-08-2008, 05:42 PM

i admit it chaining the goyf (won't work) and would be a misplace, but yeah the deck wins turn 4 with great frequency so yeah a 4/5 goyf alone won't suck that much.

if he plays a goyf each turn his, and the goyf is always a 4/5 it would look like this

turn 1- pass
turn 2- 4/5 goyf
turn 3- 4 damage, 2nd 4/5 goyf
turn 4- 12 total damage, 3rd 4/5 goyf (then i win...)

so i don't think creatures won't be that much of a problem.. the real problems are only the counters, discard and fast combo decks, :laugh:

Sims

05-08-2008, 05:45 PM

problems are only the counters, discard and fast combo decks, :laugh:

You know that one of the most prevalent decks in the format that is playing those 4/5 goyfs also play cards like Counterbalance and Force of Will, right?

Wallace

05-08-2008, 05:54 PM

...so i don't think creatures won't be that much of a problem.. the real problems are only the counters, discard and fast combo decks, :laugh:

Have you ever played this deck, in any event? Next to counterbalance and combo heavy creature based decks are a major problem. People aren't going to e dropping just 1 Goyf there will be Nimble Mogesse, Mishra's Factory's, and other early game beaters backing him up. I do agree that Manamorphose does require some testing, but it's not as good as some of you make it out to be...

Michael Keller

05-08-2008, 05:58 PM

Clark Kant

05-08-2008, 08:14 PM

Because I like to play good cards. :tongue:

Seriously though, until we have 40 Lightning Bolt equivalents that we can run, cards like Manamorphose and Street Wraith are absolutely vital in making sure we CAN win on turn four consistently.

This was like when I said Rift Bolt is an autoinclude back when it was first previewed. Very few people thought the card was worth running back then. Or when I suggested Keldon Marauders.

People will come around to Manamorphose. I'm sure of it.

Thehunter820

05-09-2008, 12:27 PM

While Manamorphose, Overmaster, and Mishra's Bauble all serve essentially the same purpose, I think it's more of a metagame choice on which to run, I would personally use the Mishra's Bauble because, though they are a terrible top deck, they're better early on, and Speed is definetly of the essence, and the fact that its free, plus, if you get an instant or a Street Wraith from the draw, since it's :0: to play you can do stuff right there.

Cire

05-09-2008, 06:44 PM

I changed my list sightly, i took out the Keldon Marauders for Fireblast's, and a PoP for some Flame rifts so it looks like this now

12 Mountains
4 Barbarian Ring

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Fireblast
2 Price of progress
2 Flame Rift

4 Manamorphose
4 Needle Drop
4 Street wraith
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

As i said before I'm finding the deck consistent at turn 4 goldfish and all the draw effects aren't as troublesome as some of you make them out to be.

Iranon

05-09-2008, 07:13 PM

Playing fillers of varying degrees of suckitude is probably not the right idea for Burn. The right version for a given meta won't need filler because everything is useful anyway.

Price of Progress can be brutal. Personally, I value having a sweeper (Cave-In is nice if Empty the Warrens surfaces often). I like how Pulse of the Forge avoids scooping to utterly pathetic Tendrils chains (you don't even need it in hand). The disposable creatures are nice for racing real creature decks. Some of these will shine, as will other cards... I just need to know which. If I have no clue how to abuse my metagame, I play something more powerful than Burn.

Puzzle

05-10-2008, 01:28 PM

I wrote that earlier about Manamorphose :

It's the worst topdeck in the world for burn...It won't make the cut for me. I don't know why people instist upon putting new, irrelevent cards in their decks...Besides, what are you going to cut for it?What I think to otherwise be the worst 4 in the deck : Incinerate, Flame Rift, lands (in high curve burn, like the ones using Flamebreak or Earthquake), etc.

As for the topdeck issue, that's a point against it indeed but :
- you get about one chance in three to lose 2 life and one in six to lose 1 life, i.e. in top deck mode, this card costs you 0.66 life on average. Let's call this 1 life.
- if you play burn correctly and aren't losing anyway, you should rarely be in topdeck mode. Playing well, it shouldn't happen more than once every 10 games. Let's say we're not good and call it 7.5. That's a 13% chance of entering topdeck mode.
- the chances of topdecking it are about 1/15 per turn, i.e. a bit less than 1 in 5 over 3 turns. If you have to spend 3 turns in topdeck mode, you will most likely lose anyway. Considering 1 or 2 turns spent in topdeck mode in a game without winning or losing gives about 20%.

In short, the chances of topdecking Manamorphose are about 2.6%, which will cost you about 1 life on average. Let's say this 1 life is relevant in, what, 1 game in 20 ? That means the issue you are talking about is relevant in about 0.13% of cases, i.e. once every 770 games.

I didn't compensate for the fact you dig 3 cards instead of 2 over 2 turns of topdeck mode and neither for the chances of a double topdeck but that gives enough of an idea of order of magnitude of the relevance of the topdeck issue.

My guess is that this is well balanced by the improvement of quality in the deck by putting Manamorphose in but I'll grant you I haven't run the calculation for that.

A mono-red burn list won't use this at ALL. 19 Mountains, 4 creatures, 34 burn spells (3-5 are board-clearers), 3 punisher spells. When are you going to play it? At what point in time does this come in "handy"? All it will do is replace itself, and if you have an empty hand, it almost can't even do that without you running the risk of burning for 2.kIt's not a matter of it coming in "handy". It's a matter of making the deck as a whole better.
Why do you play only 60 cards in your deck and not 80 ? There are plenty of "handy" spells you could cram in, aren't there ?
If there is a fault in that line of reasoning, I'm quite ready to listen to it but none of the people who have said it was wrong have actually been able to tell me where this reasoning fails.
I do completely accept the issue about mulliganing decision but I'm ready to make harder mulliganing decisions if it improves the quality of the deck.
So, right now, I do think Manamorphose should be a staple for 2-colour burn (borderline Sligh) at least.

I personally have been running a variant of burn edging on sligh for a while and certainly love Manamorphose :
Lands : 20
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
9 Mountain

Creatures : 7
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Keldon Marauders

Spells : 33
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
2 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
4 Earthquake
4 Manamorphose
3 Fireblast

Side : 15
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Orim's Chant
2 Pyroblast
2 REB
3 Pithing Needle

I still don't have a miracle-solution for Threshold (even Shusher probably won't be enough) but it's not unwinable, but I beat any aggro senselessly and get a fair play against combo (particularly EtW) over a complete match.

DalkonCledwin

05-11-2008, 09:44 AM

I recently got back into playing Legacy, and the deck I am playing is of course burn, as that is the only deck I happen to have access to. Below is the list that I have:

LANDS:
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

CREATURES:
4 Mogg Fanatic

WIN CONDITIONS:
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress

THREE FOR ONES:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

OTHER SPELLS:
4 Magma Jet
4 Flamebreak
3 Incinerate
2 Browbeat

SIDEBOARD:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree
3 Everlasting Torment
3 Anarchy
3 Tormod's Crypt

Cards that I still need for the above deck are as follows:

2 Magma Jet [using 1 Incinerate & 1 Keldon Marauders at the moment)
1 Flamebreak [using 1 Firespout at the moment]
4 Chain Lightning [using 4 Shock at the moment]

I have a trade going on that will get me the 4 Chain Lightning, in english form no less. So as long as that trade goes through, I should have the Chain Lightnings by the end of the month! Its just the Magma Jets and Flamebreak that are giving me the most heartache.

The Legacy Weapon

05-11-2008, 10:00 AM

Overmaster looks like a nice card. It would definately help Fireblasts get through and it replaces its self.What would you suggest taking out for it?

Wallace

05-11-2008, 11:03 AM

Overmaster looks like a nice card. It would definitely help Fireblasts get through and it replaces its self.What would you suggest taking out for it?

After some testing I too agree that overmaster is worth running, in the board. What to remove really depends on what list you are running, if you run baubles, remove a set of them, same goes for wraith's and Manamorphose.

I haven't posted a list in a while so here is what I am currently running:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
3 Magma Jet
3 Flame Rift
3 Flamebreak
2 Shard Volley
4 Street Wraith
4 Manamorphose

3 Barbarian Ring
16 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Overmaster
4 Pyroblast
3 Shattering Spree
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Price of Progress

Please keep in mind that sideboards are very meta specific.

Puzzle

05-11-2008, 11:09 AM

Wallace

05-11-2008, 12:08 PM

Overmaster costs 1 mana and has no effect on most decks.
The only matchups where it does something, this something is unlikely to be better than a Bolt, unless you indeed have Fireblast to play : statistically, being in a relevant matchup + having both Overmaster and Fireblast in hand + the opponent having a counter ready at that time is a very small percentage, certainly not worth paying 1 mana for.
1 mana is a lot for burn. It can delay you by a whole turn.
I'd much rather play Needle Drop and I don't feel that Needle Drop is worth it, although I keep an open mind on it.

:confused: ... Have you ever played burn at a large Legacy event (30+ people)? Counter magic is one of this decks biggest problems, counterbalance by it self can cost you the game. Overmaster isn't there to help your Bolts resolve, its there for your finishers, Fireblast and Price of Progress. Overmaster is a nice compliment to Pyroblast/REB, its gives you that little edge that is sometimes needed. Yes I know your opponent can just counter the Overmaster with counterbalance, but it makes them work just a little harder to counter the next spell.

Puzzle

05-11-2008, 12:47 PM

:confused: ... Have you ever played burn at a large Legacy event (30+ people)? Counter magic is one of this decks biggest problems, counterbalance by it self can cost you the game. Overmaster isn't there to help your Bolts resolve, its there for your finishers, Fireblast and Price of Progress. Overmaster is a nice compliment to Pyroblast/REB, its gives you that little edge that is sometimes needed. Yes I know your opponent can just counter the Overmaster with counterbalance, but it makes them work just a little harder to counter the next spell.In big tournaments, I don't maindeck cards that are relevant only against 1/6 to 1/3 of the field and don't even affect these matchups all the time, let alone win them on their own.
Overmaster can delay you by a whole turn and make you lose more often than it will make you win.

As for Counterbalance, and the risk of getting countered in general, you've answered your own point. I'd just add that Pyroblast and REB do the job much better by being able to counter the CB before it hits play. Would you side Overmaster on top of 8 blasts ?
Also bear in mind in that respect that to Overmaster + PoP, you need 3 mana, at which point a CB player has manipulation in place anyway. And you don't want to Fireblast too early, leading to the same issue.

In short :
- how often will this one mana cost you the game by delaying the kill ?
- how often will Overmaster win you the game over the meta you meet ?

Less confused ?

DalkonCledwin

05-11-2008, 09:35 PM

I don't really like Overmaster, I much prefer my REB's and Pyroblasts (or I will like the Pyroblasts once I get some)... still, I think that the card has some merit, just not enough to merit a slot in the deck.

bigbear102

05-11-2008, 11:41 PM

Puzzle, your point about the CB player having manipulation in play by the time you hit 3 mana confuses me. For 3 mana to be relevant you obv. want to force through a PoP, which means the opponent needs to have AT LEAST 2 non-basics in play, which will never happen before turn 2. PoP is a card that you want to play late anyway, so turn 3 isn't that bad.

Personally, against Countertop I want to play the long game. I board in Grips and wait for an opportunity, then combo off on them over the course of their end step and my turn with 3-5 lands in play. Overmaster does nothing for this strategy, so I wouldn't play it.

A lot of people don't realize how they need to play to beat Countertop. You either need to burn them down to 6 or less so that you can force through the requisite spells to kill them, or you need to do what I already said and overwhelm them late game.

In this format I believe that Grip is necessary for burn to be competitive. It is your only sure-fire out against counterbalance.

Iranon

05-12-2008, 02:49 AM

Why exactly should overmaster matter?

Yes, the deck is slowed down noticably by countermagic. However, no individual spell is crucial. The only thing it does is forcing an opponent to counter a 'Bolt-standin' rather than a 4-damage spelld; not worth spending one mana on. The only time it might actually be useful is when protecting a Price of Progress.
The effect simply isn't worth spending mana on; the effect against Counterbalance is fairly marginal as well (as opposed to REB).

Maëlig

05-13-2008, 07:03 AM

DalkonCledwin

05-13-2008, 01:51 PM

This has probably been discussed over and again, so if someone gives me a link to the thread/posts I'll delete this one.

What about making a transformational (can you say that?) sideboard to switch between burn and sligh between games?
If you maindeck mogg fanatic and keldon marauders (which is an OK choice for burn), and put some grim lavamancer, magus of the moon and/or slith firewalker in the SB, this can make a reasonably good sligh deck. The objective being to take your opponent by suprise and to dodge the removed anti-creatures.
Could this be viable?

I would rather have answers for burns tougher match ups (such as a UGw threshold deck that runs worship and nimble mongoose (which I faced this past weekend)). Without having answers for all possibilities in your sideboard, your going to find that your deck is beaten by alot more decks than the normal burn deck is.

Curby

05-16-2008, 11:55 PM

I would rather have answers for burns tougher match ups (such as a UGw threshold deck that runs worship and nimble mongoose (which I faced this past weekend)). Without having answers for all possibilities in your sideboard, your going to find that your deck is beaten by alot more decks than the normal burn deck is.

Burn isn't considered a tier 1 contender because too many cards/strategies can hamstring it. For that reason, its sideboard is pretty much its only chance to survive through the later rounds of developed metas, and it must be tuned to those metas. In summary, yes the sideboard should be filled with answers to tough matchups, though those answers will depend on the daily expected meta. E.g. Worship is a problem, but it often isn't enough to include Anarchy in the side. By the way, for those of you using Grips, how are you getting the Green? Is Grip over Spree worth the problems of splashing?

Pltnmngl

05-18-2008, 08:18 PM

Pardon me if this sounds too much of a noob question, but which burn cards MUST be in burn?

Iranon

05-19-2008, 12:31 AM

The absolute essentials are

Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Lava Spike
Rift Bolt
Fireblast

At least 2 Price of Progress are almost a given, barring very unusual metagames. Everything else is debatable, with some restrictions (for example, I want at least 3 sweepers... but that could be Flamebreak or Cave-In).

Curby

05-19-2008, 01:43 AM

Pardon me if this sounds too much of a noob question, but which burn cards MUST be in burn?

I think of the importance of cards in my burn deck goes roughly like the following:

18 Land+16 bolts+4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift+4 Magma Jet+4 Keldon Marauders
1 Land+2 Shard Volley
3 Flamebreak+4 Manamorphose

At what point do cards stop being essential? That depends on your own preferences. I'd say that everything besides the last 7 cards is essential. (I'm gradually trying to find space for Price of Progress in the main, but my casual meta is basic-heavy.)

EDIT: My use of "essential" should be taken to mean that I haven't found any clearly superior card. The only card that could replace Flamebreak or Manamorphose is Price of Progress, but that's not usable in my meta.

Thehunter820

05-19-2008, 12:23 PM

I pretty much agree with the aforementioned statement by Iranon, the essential burn cards in any deck are as follows:

Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Lava Spike
Rift Bolt
Fireblast

I also think that 18-19 lands is sufficient unless your using Fireblast and Shard Volley which I wouldn't recommend. Street Wraiths, Urza's/Mishra's Bauble, and Fetchlands could find a place in most decks, I personally recommend 4-8 Wraith/Bauble mix depending on your liking, and 2-6 fetches, I don’t use any fetches in my list but that's because I haven’t the money to dedicate it, I'd probably through in 4. I also think 2-3 Barbarian Rings is a nice addition because its a nice finisher if they have Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top countering all your stuff and they're at 1 or 2 life, you can kill them with it, supposing they don’t stifle.

kaasblokje

05-22-2008, 05:23 PM

Wallace

05-22-2008, 05:28 PM

i have updated my deck this is what i have now

what do you think

Spark Elemental is terrible in Legacy, other than thet it looks fine. Try Flame Rift or Incinerate...

Curby

05-23-2008, 02:04 AM

SB
3 pyroclasm
2 flame break
4 shattering spree
3 chalice of the void
3 tormod's crypt

Alternately, the Spark Elementals could become Flamebreak in the main, thus freeing up some sideboard space. The use of Pyroclasms when you haven't maxed out your complement of Cave-Ins and Flamebreaks confuses me a bit: do you face untargetable, must-kill */2 fliers? I'd rather have the speed+reach of Cave-In or the efficiency+reach of Flamebreak.

Lastly, how do you use Chalice? Setting it at 1 or 2 hurts us a lot, and you're unlikely to see 6 mana anytime soon, so I imagine you're setting it at 0. Do you use it against combo? Losing Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal would hurt some decks, but I'm not sure that it's enough to swing the match, so I'm wondering if there's something better for the side.

Iranon

05-23-2008, 04:58 AM

If running one-shot critters at all, I'd go for the whole set and play Cave-In. Otherwise you're turning dead cards into non-dead cards for little gain.

Thehunter820

05-23-2008, 12:21 PM

17 mountain
2 barbarian rings

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
2 shard volley
4 Price of progress
4 magma jet
4 Fireblast

4 mana morphose

3 spark elemental
4 Keldon Marauders

SB
3 pyroclasm
2 flame break
4 shattering spree
3 chalice of the void
3 tormod's crypt

You could try street wraith or baubles in the place of spark elemental. As for the side, You could probly drop the chalice, and 1-2 of the sweepers unless you have an aggro-swarm creature type meta.

Angelfire

05-23-2008, 04:20 PM

i have updated my deck this is what i have now

17 mountain
2 barbarian rings

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
2 shard volley
4 Price of progress
4 magma jet
4 Fireblast

4 mana morphose

3 spark elemental
4 Keldon Marauders

SB
3 pyroclasm
2 flame break
4 shattering spree
3 chalice of the void
3 tormod's crypt

what do you think

I'm really not a fan of shard volley, especially when coupled with 4 fireblasts and 2 barb rings. Mogg fanatic will often deal more damage than spark elemental even if he is a late draw and provides far more utility (block and ping face to buy time, answers bridge and lackey etc...). Chalice in the board? dropped at 1 it eats half your deck, 0 it affects to little and no acceleration hardly droppable at 2. I suggest Vexing Shusher or pyrostatic pillar instead.

Thehunter820

05-28-2008, 12:16 PM

Mogg fanatic will often deal more damage than spark elemental

2 > 3!

Either way Mogg fanatic is a better choice.

bigbear102

05-30-2008, 05:31 PM

I'm really not a fan of shard volley, especially when coupled with 4 fireblasts and 2 barb rings. Mogg fanatic will often deal more damage than spark elemental even if he is a late draw and provides far more utility (block and ping face to buy time, answers bridge and lackey etc...). Chalice in the board? dropped at 1 it eats half your deck, 0 it affects to little and no acceleration hardly droppable at 2. I suggest Vexing Shusher or pyrostatic pillar instead.

I agree with you on Shard and Fanatic, but I have actually been considering Chalice myself. On the play, it significantly slows down combo. I have also realized that in reality, there are not that many one drops that you need to worry about in the deck if you want to drop it at 1. My current list is:

// Lands
10 [OD] Mountain (2)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
3 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [10E] Incinerate
3 [DS] Flamebreak
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [NE] Flame Rift
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [EX] Price of Progress

I normally board out Mogg Fanatics against combo anyway, so that leaves me with 12 1 drops. The first Chalice goes at 0 anyway, so you have turn 1 to play your bolt, then if you have the 2nd chalice, you play it at 1, because you essentially lock them out of the game, and your deck has plenty of burn at 2 or above given enough time.

Chalice is decent only if you expect a lot of belcher/tes type decks around. Otherwise it is pretty bad. Pyrostatic Pillar sometimes just isn't fast enough to stop those types of decks.

Poron

05-31-2008, 10:12 AM

I'm testing a "modern" Burn deck. It tries to be competitive in the modern meta full of CBalance and Thresh.

6 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothils
4 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest

4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Shard Volley

4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast

4 Flamebreak/Flames of the Blood Hand

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Flaring Pain
4 Shattering Spree

Illissius

05-31-2008, 10:32 AM

Poron

05-31-2008, 11:03 AM

And the difference is...... *drumroll* you added Tarmogoyf?

Krosan Grip in the board is definitely a good idea, but not all that new. I still think going (even more) nearly or completely creatureless maindeck and boarding Vexing Shusher (along with maybe red blasts against their blue ones) would be a direction worth exploring -- do people keep Swords to Plowshares in against a creatureless burn deck purely because of the lifegain aspect?

The point is the SB Grip obviously, and the Goyf maindeck (I know it's not original...) is usefull as a chump blocker and a nonred source of damage.

CON:

1) we open to wasteland
2) loss of life due to fetchlands
3) we open to creature hate/removal
4) we lose PoP greatness

PRO:

1) we earn some probabilities to win against our impossible matchups.
2) Krosan Grip can also kill many other usefull things (Phyrexian Dreadnought?)

Illissius

05-31-2008, 11:27 AM

Goyf is almost definitely a terrible idea; if you find yourself wanting to play Tarmogoyf in Burn you should play Goyf Sligh instead. And it's certainly very possible that Goyf Sligh is a better deck, and an improvement over Burn.

One idea with Grip is to play the full eight fetchlands, but with only a single Taiga either main, or only in the sideboard along with the Grips, to minimize your vulnerability to Wasteland and your own Prices of Progress; there's still the Stifle vulnerability and lifeloss of the fetchlands, though, and nine sources of green may not be enough. Maybe try some Sensei's Divining Tops maindeck to make lemonade with?

Poron

05-31-2008, 11:30 AM

Yes, I'm happy with Grip but not happy at all with Tarmogyf... what about if we add a Forest instead of the Taiga? to avoid totally the weakness against Wasteland and to reuse out PoP? going to try it for a little.

in my humble opinion anyway if we want to have a modern competitive burn deck we must play Grip in SB. Split Second is what makes the splash worth (so white is out of the run)

what u think about it?

Sanguine Voyeur

05-31-2008, 11:33 AM

You need your lands to be mountains or red producing to feed Fireblast and cast multiple bolts in one turn.

Illissius

05-31-2008, 11:47 AM

What about Fractured Loyalty in the sideboard against decks which play fat things? (Since Tarmogoyf, this is most of them). You're Burn, so they're going to side out their removal. You're Burn, so you're going to have a shit-ton of ways to target creatures, whereas your opponent very likely won't. If they do, it'll likely kill the creature rather than regain control of it, so you've at least maintained card parity. If they sided out their removal and you take their Tarmogoyf, they might be very fucked unless they can find another one quickly to block it with.

EDIT -- Also, are any of your sideboard options remotely as effective against Storm combo as Orim's Chant? If not, with the 8 fetchland plan you could just slap in a Plateau as well and play the damn Chants.

EDIT again -- Decklists are fun, so if you'd take all these recent amazingly awesome ideas I've amazingly awesomely had, you'd get something like this:

"Modern" Burn

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Flamebreak
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
10 Mountain
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 3 Fractured Loyalty
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Plateau
SB: 1 Taiga

Does it suck? You could move the duals to the maindeck and play more good cards in the sideboard, up to you.

Poron

05-31-2008, 07:54 PM

Pyrostatic Pillar is more than enough to own Storm combo, I wouldn't open to another color

TheRock

05-31-2008, 08:38 PM

If you want to splash a color, Manamorphose is the card that makes it more possible. There are three problems with that idea though:

It only produces different colored mana once.
It costs two mana - so it's vulnerable to Counterbalance and it doesn't give you, say, :g: turn one.
It's a cantrip (and the effects have been debated here in countless places).

On the flipside, you can run a whole onslaught of cards that you couldn't run before. Unfortunately with Manamorphose, Chant and Grip for Counterbalance just aren't that practical.

EDIT: After some testing, you can still use Thoughtseize for this deck, although you can't get a card like Lackey or Counterbalance on the draw if you're stuck using ManaM as your color source.

ParkerLewis

06-01-2008, 04:03 AM

What about Fractured Loyalty in the sideboard against decks which play fat things?

This means you're going to spend at least two cards to take control of said creature.

It's probably ok to steal a tarmogoyf this way, but other than that, is it really worth the effort ?

Illissius

06-01-2008, 04:24 AM

Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker
Doran
Countryside Crusher
Terravore

Basically it's taking the "they're boarding out removal, so bring in creatures when they don't expect it" plan up a notch by stealing their creatures.

Vacrix

06-01-2008, 04:57 PM

how wud a beat down set of lands work in with burn?

Slow Burn:

ancient tomb 4
city of traitors 4
simian spirit guide 4
chrome mox 4
mountain 4

ensnaring bridge 4
blood moon/chalice 4

32 various burn

another idea would be to run trinisphere but it mite slow down the burn too much.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-01-2008, 05:05 PM

With Chrome Mox, Simian Spirit Guide, Blood Moon, and main deck Ensnaring Bridge, you would run out of steam very quickly with little gain.

Vacrix

06-01-2008, 09:32 PM

Cait_Sith

06-01-2008, 09:37 PM

Thing is, then you are no longer playing Burn but a bad Stompy deck. Burn works on this highly developed and sophisticated formula:

1) Aim spell toward opponent's face.
2) Repeat.

Your idea is like:

1) Empty my hand.
2) Do nothing as my opponent digs for an answer.
3) Get color screwed.
4) Chalice my own burn spells.
5) Lose.

Valtrix

06-01-2008, 10:11 PM

its just an idea im throwing out there man. instead of playing stupid burn and just trying to go straight for the head every game, maybe try a different method of play somehow in which you abuse the same kind of effects that stompy does. its not a legit list, just an idea.

What's the point of doing that when burning your opponent to the ground is good enough? Maybe you're looking more for something like Sligh, which uses creatures and burn to clear the way/win faster.

Wallace

06-01-2008, 11:46 PM

how wud a beat down set of lands work in with burn?

It's simple it would lose...O and slow burn FTL...

Burn is a simple deck to play, a typical game should go something like this:

Turn 1: Mountain, Bolt your opponent's Face, say go...
Turn 2: Mountain, Bolt your opponent's Face Twice, say go...
Turn 3: Mountain, Bolt your opponent's Face Twice, Fireblast your opponent's Face, if they haven't fetched then they are at 1. Let's face it though, unless they are playing a select few decks then they have fetched.

Don't make playing this deck any more complicated then it needs to be. Point burn spell at your opponent's face and prey they don't drop a Trinisphere, Chalice for 1, counterbalance, chill, LED, Grindstone, ....

squee, general nuisance

06-04-2008, 07:52 PM

how does 3 turn 1 6 turn 2 and 13 turn 3 put them at 1 that puts them at -2.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-04-2008, 07:56 PM

how does 3 turn 1 6 turn 2 and 9 turn 3 put them at 1 that puts them at 2.It's a bolt turn one [3 damage total], two bolts turn two [9 damage total], an two bolts and a Fireblast turn three [from 9 to 12 to 15 to 19 damage total.]

squee, general nuisance

06-04-2008, 07:57 PM

I would like to say that If you are a good burn deck then 10 cards to put them at -2 means that you went second so the only way to go first and do your thing puting them at 1 there you are right

It's simple it would lose...O and slow burn FTL...

Burn is a simple deck to play, a typical game should go something like this:

Turn 1: Mountain, Bolt your opponent's Face, say go...
Turn 2: Mountain, Bolt your opponent's Face Twice, say go...
Turn 3: Mountain, Bolt your opponent's Face Twice, Fireblast your opponent's Face, if they haven't fetched then they are at 1. Let's face it though, unless they are playing a select few decks then they have fetched.

Don't make playing this deck any more complicated then it needs to be. Point burn spell at your opponent's face and prey they don't drop a Trinisphere, Chalice for 1, counterbalance, chill, LED, Grindstone, ....

Wallace

06-04-2008, 07:58 PM

how does 3 turn 1 6 turn 2 and 13 turn 3 put them at 1 that puts them at -2.

You read it wrong it's:

1: 3 (Bolt)
2: 6 (Bolt, Bolt)
3: 10 (Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast)

If you drew the nuts and hit 6, 3 damage for a :r: a Fireblast and the 3 the land, the you can kill them...

On another note, does anyone have the list that took 4th at GP Hollywood side event? Apparently it was a burn list played by a 14 year old Girl!!! Nice...

Team-Hero

06-04-2008, 08:31 PM

In the 14 year old girl's list, she ran the following cards:
4 Sulfuric Vortex
2-3 Wheel of Fate
? Keldon Marauders

The Vortex and Wheel of Fate were rocking people all day during the tournament. The Wheel of Fate not only won her so many games, but it ripped away a Pulse of the Fields from a player playing Standstill.

Maëlig

06-05-2008, 07:17 AM

Squee, sorry to say that but your post is hardly readable. I didn't make the effort.
Wheel of fate... now that's an interesting choice! The problem I have with it is that it seems usually too slow to matter (at best on turn 6). Suspend allows the opponent to prepare for it, too, either by emptying his hand (a symmetrical effect is not so hot) or by keeping a counter or stifle in hand for it (I can't believe the landstill player let it resolve!). Oh, and it's a horrible topdeck.
MD sulfuric vortex doesn't surprise me that much, I think it's a solid choice (although I would probably run only 3).

Iranon

06-05-2008, 06:20 PM

I think of Burn as Mono-Red-Control. If I want to blindly go for the throat I'm slower than most combo decks and very vulnerable to commonly played cards like Counterbalance or Chalice.
It's the combination of a respectable clock and the ability to punish creature decks for overextending that makes Burn worth playing to me... a choice of damnations for many opponent.

As such, I'm interested in any card that gives Burn a shot at winning late after frying annoying stuff. Sulfuric Vortex does this and also prevents us from losing to something lame like a Tendrils for 8.
Wheel of Fate should pretty much be an instant win if it resolves... even if one was forced to play control until then. Still, a blank whenever topdecked or when trying to win before turn 6 that telegraphs the punch from a mile away seems bad.

I wonder if the concept of optimising Burn for the long haul has merit... Sulfuric Vortex + Pulse of the Forge are moderately useful when trying to win in the usual time frame. This leads to problems with the curve though... if we also run sweepers we run low of slots for straight efficient Burn.

mada7

06-06-2008, 07:06 PM

I dont really like hte idea of trying to make the deck able to go deep into the later game it dilutes the card pool and really get away from the strength of the deck. Pulse of the forge is an interesting choice but in a deck like this the amount of times itll return to your hand will be minimal. Winning in the long haul with this deck is tricky and generally not worth the effort it would take. against blue control builds pyroblast and REB can come in out of the board and if a countertop engine does get set up hope for rift bolts and fireblasts, hope theyre not holding a FoW and keep mana open on everything in case of daze.

Im kinda on the fence about sulfuric vortex im torn between using that or everlasting torment as a means to combat life gain decks. Both have their merits losing a turn to not do damage for everlasting torment is bad but being able to with an annoying creature to give you more time to draw into stuff if youre just not getting lucky topdecks is a big plus also the ability to hose stuff like story circle and CoP red is a little extra value. The vortex keeps up the pressure with 2 damage every turn but doesnt do anything against creatures and doesnt stop damage prevention.

NeXuS

06-07-2008, 03:35 AM

This is the current list im playing. Shrapnel blast is a mean burn spell 5 for 1R but you do have to put in great furnace and citadel to have an artifact to sac to it.

I guess an idea game would go like this with this list:

Turn 1:
Mountain, Lightning bolt (3)

Turn 2:
Great Furnace, Lightning bolt (6)

Turn 3:

Mountain:, vortex

Turn 4:
Citadel, Shrapnel Blast + fork for 10 (18 - 2 from vortex during their last turn)

Then they die during their turn from vortex

// Lands
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Great Furnace
16 [A] Mountain (2)

// Spells
4 [TSB] Browbeat
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [VI] Fireblast
3 [A] Fork
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [MOR] Shard Volley
4 [MR] Shrapnel Blast
3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex

Im thinking -4 Browbeat +4 Chrome mox to speed the deck up some.

If we did that we could go -2 Dark Citadel and +2 of another burn spell or +2 mountain

hugh1130

06-07-2008, 04:15 AM

honestly i cant see the reason to run shapnel over rift bolt

NeXuS

06-07-2008, 02:26 PM

Rift bolt is either slow or it cost 3 as Sharpnel is 5 dmg for 2 which is great.

yankeedave

06-07-2008, 02:55 PM

This deck is all about virtual card advantage. Your opponent will draw dead card after dead card with this deck and this is one of the ways it shines! Creature removal? Dead. Artifact removal? Dead. You start adding Great Furnaces, and you give them a target for their Krosan Grips, and what deck is not playing green for Goyf these days? This means you do not gain card advantage. And you also lose a land and a spell, so they have effectly 2:1'd you. And Goyf now has another +2/+2 for an artifact and a land! So they now have the card advantage. Well done.

And as for Rift Bolt - play it. Simple as that. It is never a wasted first or second turn play, and, if you play Cave-In, it is the perfect pitch card later in the game!

But, each to their own and well done to the 14yr old girl who took 4th place and put this deck back in the DTB Forums!

Yankee

Willoe

06-07-2008, 03:32 PM

I haven't tested burn for a very long time, and I'd like to begin again. Seeing that a 14 (okay, I don't laugh, i'm 15) year old girl can actually top4 made me happy with Burn, yet again. Burn is indeed a good deck, not just something random. Hey, am I the only one who can't stand people that just says that "burn is an excuse for playing magic cheap and an easy way to win tournaments"? Seriously, even though the very basic nature of burn might seem boring, is it horribly interesting topdecks that you make during the game. I think that Burn is a very exciting deck to play with.

Enough of that wierd sentimental talk. Has anyone tested Smash To Smithereens over Shattering Spree? Currently, my very outdated sideboard looks like this:

3 Blood Moon
3 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Chalice of the Void

Blood Moon is mainly for landstill. Most of the time, it's counter-bait when I'm about to play a Price of Progress. Shattering Spree is for Chalices. Red Pyroblast is for Counterbalances. Dryad Arbor is my super secret tech with wooded foothills to fetch against an opposing nimble mongoose or dark confidant. Really, it rocks! :D Chalice of the Void is ironically against fast combo. If I manage to get a turn, I can slow them down. Also, when I play it for 0, I don't suffer. What does peolpe think of this board? My meta is thresh variants, landstill, some aluren and fetchland tendrils and a single SI.

electrolyze

06-08-2008, 06:51 AM

i'd like to know if there is something like a optimal burn list, because i really think there can be a optimal list with all the burn spells around here.

after i bought a german playset of lightning bolt and fireblast, i had the idea to make my whole burn deck as german as possible:laugh: i'm not german myself but i like the language.

this is my list:

4xkeldon marauders
4xmogg fanatic

4xlightning bolt
4xchain lightning
4xlava spike
4xrift bolt

4xmagma jet
4xprice of progress

4xfireblast

2xbarbarian ring
16xmountain

as you can see, there are 6 slots over, but i dont know what to put in it, should i play incinerate, flamebreak, sulfuric vortex, street wraith, baubles, manamorphosis. i dont really know whats the best in it.

can some people help[ me with the open slots, and does the list for the rest looks good?

thanks, electrolyze:laugh:

ps. i like some help with the sideboard too

tsabo_tavoc

06-08-2008, 08:48 AM

Dryad Arbor is my super secret tech with wooded foothills to fetch against an opposing nimble mongoose or dark confidant. Really, it rocks! :D
Nice super tech; but Thresh players won't miss mongoose that much as you miss a land, and why should Bob be killed? Plus you lose consistency, how could it rock?

zander1

06-08-2008, 03:29 PM

as you can see, there are 6 slots over, but i dont know what to put in it, should i play incinerate, flamebreak, sulfuric vortex, street wraith, baubles, manamorphosis. i dont really know whats the best in it.

can some people help[ me with the open slots, and does the list for the rest looks good?

Sulfuric Vortex + Cave in // Flamebreak // Fork // Shard Volley ??

With these cards, your list looks very good.

Willoe

06-08-2008, 05:03 PM

Nice super tech; but Thresh players won't miss mongoose that much as you miss a land, and why should Bob be killed? Plus you lose consistency, how could it rock?

Yes they will. It happens that I often draw three lands, which is far too many. I'd be glad to stop a potential lava spike with a land. Just sayin'.

I'd be more than happy to waste a land on bob and not a burn spell. If bob somehow attacks, I sac land and grab the arbor to face it. I usually board this arbor thingie in at the cost of 1 flamebreak against creature light decks.

Bob is a dude that is an absolute must kill. The more ressources you have, the better IMO. But this is simply a sideboard test.

How does people like a transformational sideboard? Something could consist of:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor

And you already mainboard Keldon Marauders and Mogg Fanatic. How does that sound?

Guy I Don't Know

06-08-2008, 10:45 PM

flamebreak is insane in burn... and why does none play bridge in the side?

raharu

06-08-2008, 10:58 PM

flamebreak is insane in burn... and why does none play bridge in the side?
Well, you could either mean Ensnaring Bridge or Brige from Below. Assuming that you mean the one that actually does something here (Ensnaring), it's most likely because by the time you could drop it you're either winning the game or likely to die, and while it would be nice in the second scenario, it still doesn't say "deal ~ dammage" on it. Perhaps it's worth a shot, but I've never seen cards that don't say "deal dammage" somewhere on them played in burn.

KillemallCFH

06-09-2008, 12:10 AM

Although it does go against the strategy of the deck, I can attest that Ensnaring Bridge can be immensely powerful. In an era of Goyf and Dreadnought (which is very prevalent in my meta), Burn can sometimes be outraced. Ensnaring Bridge lets you live long enough to draw the last couple of burn spells you need to win.

The Rack

06-09-2008, 02:41 AM

Wasn't Burning Bridges an Extended deck or is that just the San DIego meta talking? I think Bridge would be great because by turn 3 you went from 7 to
7 mountain, burn 5
6 mountain burn burn
3 mountain bridge 1
2

You'll have 2 cards in hand by the time you have burned them 3 times and have a bridge which will stop a 3+ Power. That sounds pretty good to me. Oh and beware, Piledriver gets under Bridge too.

Iranon

06-09-2008, 06:21 AM

I'm wary of playing cards in Burn that don't burn at all. About the only consistently scary creature clock is a turn 1 ETW; Bridge doesn't exacly solve that problem very well.
Dreadnaughts won't kill until turn 4, Goyfs will probably take longer. We can try to simply race that instead of dicking about with game stallers.

I build Burn with control in mind not because I expect to play control all that often, but simply because it's possible without compromising our main game plan too much.
Pulse of the Forge is a little overpriced, but can still feature in a turn 4 kill; good enough. I'll gladly accept the barely perceptible slowdown for the opportunity to recover from things like discard, counters or panic Burns (Lackey etc).
In a similar vein, Cave-In can take care of many nasty little surprises and can simply speed up mana-light hands.
It's a huge difference whether our control tools are potential blanks or whether they are merely slightly suboptimal as stupid burn spells.

I'm not too sold on going out of my way so I can trade a land for a Bob. From my experience, Burn can often deal 17-19 points of damage by turn 3; Bobs might be a liability rather than an asset to them.

Guy I Don't Know

06-09-2008, 03:13 PM

ensnaring bridge seems insane in the board, if you need it. what does brn lose to? (other than trinisphere, chalice of the void)

Willoe

06-09-2008, 03:57 PM

What burn often loses to:
Counterbalance
CoP: Red
Chalice
Trinisphere
Lifegain i.e. Exalted Angel
Savage discard (turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 2 hymn, turn 3 thoughtseize and hymn)

What did I miss?

Sims

06-09-2008, 04:10 PM

What burn often loses to:
Counterbalance
CoP: Red
Chalice
Trinisphere
Lifegain i.e. Exalted Angel
Savage discard (turn 1 thoughtseize, turn 2 hymn, turn 3 thoughtseize and hymn)

What did I miss?

Itself. Drawing 1 too many lands, 1 wrong burn spell, or having to direct a shot at a creature to keep yourself from being ovewhelmed can easily leave you 1-4 damage short in the end.

Curby

06-10-2008, 04:09 AM

Rift bolt is either slow or it cost 3 as Sharpnel is 5 dmg for 2 which is great.

You aren't winning on turn 1 anyway, so the Suspend is not a problem. The only time it is a problem is when you topdeck it on the turn you're supposed to win+you don't have enough mana to cast it and win that turn+you lose because of it. Situational? Maybe, but so is depending on having artifacts, then paying two cards and 2+[artifact_cost] mana for the 5 damage. Two suspended Rift Bolts give 6 damage for 2, after all. :wink:

I'd run Rift Bolt and Flame Rift before Shrapnel Blast. In fact, I'd run Flames of the Blood Hand, Flame Javelin, and probably even Browbeat (shudder) before Shrapnel Blast. On the other hand, you could be running Bridge/Bauble/Ankh Burn and then Shrapnel Blast would make a bit of sense, but we're not supposed to talk about that here. =)

Enough of that wierd sentimental talk. Has anyone tested Smash To Smithereens over Shattering Spree?

It was discussed a few pages back. Basically, StS is more easily disrupted, doesn't get you out of double-Chalice-ville, and doesn't make Affinity cry big tears. However, StS is an Instant, furthers your gameplan, and thus can be sided in anytime the opp. plays artifacts (you only side in Spree against must-kill arts). You have to consider the nightly meta, and determine whether you'll face a lot of Chalices or other must-kill Artifacts. Aside from that, StS is superior against a generic meta because it's a mediocre burn spell by the numbers, but because it disrupts the opponent it's actually a spectacular burn spell in the right situation.

matelml

06-15-2008, 09:55 AM

Why is nobody playing Meekstone? It stops Goyfs, Grunts, Tombstalkers, big Mongeese, Terravore, what else... I would think it greatly improves your aggro and aggro-control matchup. Control is a good matchup anyway, so those 4 cards that you board out the 2nd game don't matter much and combo doesn't see much play and you won't win game 1 anyway. This is what I would suggest:

4 Meekstone
4 Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Spark Elemental
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Keldon Marauders
18 Mountains

Sb:
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Ankh of Mishra
3 Pyroblast/more artifact hate: Smash to Smithereens, Meltdown

No fetch because you really need the life with burn. You are always racing your opponent, if you don't use the cards in the GY or the shuffling, don't play them. No Barbarian Rings because they hurt too much, especially since they work better with fetch and you play Price of Progress. They can also be a problem with Fireblast.

Curby

06-15-2008, 02:38 PM

Why is nobody playing Meekstone?

Because it doesn't further our gameplan of burning their face off. This is why we don't run Ensnaring Bridge, or Wall of Dust. This is why our anticreatures strategies (e.g. Flamebreak) also deal damage. This is why our ground game buffer (Keldon Marauders) also deals guaranteed damage outside of combat. Every nonland card in the deck must deal damage to the opponent. Even if two 5/6 Goyfs or two Tombstalkers start attacking on turn 3, that gives you the 4 turns a fast burn deck needs to pull off a win.

At most, you might consider strictly anti-creature strategies in the side, but even then I'd rather go with more Flamebreaks, Cave-Ins, and perhaps Earthquakes before something that will never damage the opp.

By the way, some creatures are huge enough to not have to attack several times, bounce/untap effects get around Meekstone, and swarms of 1/1s and 2/2s won't be fazed either. If you're going to be using an anti-creature strategy that doesn't deal damage to the opp., you better be damn sure it stops everything. Otherwise, use a narrower anti-creature strategy that still lets you win off the topdeck.

In short: Run threats, not answers.
Alternately: "You're the beatdown." (Always)

matelml

06-16-2008, 03:41 AM

Because it doesn't further our gameplan of burning their face off. This is why we don't run Ensnaring Bridge, or Wall of Dust. This is why our anticreatures strategies (e.g. Flamebreak) also deal damage. This is why our ground game buffer (Keldon Marauders) also deals guaranteed damage outside of combat. Every nonland card in the deck must deal damage to the opponent. Even if two 5/6 Goyfs or two Tombstalkers start attacking on turn 3, that gives you the 4 turns a fast burn deck needs to pull off a win.

At most, you might consider strictly anti-creature strategies in the side, but even then I'd rather go with more Flamebreaks, Cave-Ins, and perhaps Earthquakes before something that will never damage the opp.

By the way, some creatures are huge enough to not have to attack several times, bounce/untap effects get around Meekstone, and swarms of 1/1s and 2/2s won't be fazed either. If you're going to be using an anti-creature strategy that doesn't deal damage to the opp., you better be damn sure it stops everything. Otherwise, use a narrower anti-creature strategy that still lets you win off the topdeck.

In short: Run threats, not answers.
Alternately: "You're the beatdown." (Always)

This deck isn't reliably fast enough to always race the opponent. It's draw too much lands, too few, etc. Therefore, if you can stall the opponent for 3 turns, that can be very good. Flamebreak, etc doesn't handle Goyf, the biggest problem for this deck next to Chalice.
Ensaring Bridge IS actually played in Burn, I saw someone with it main in the T8 of the Belgian champs (110+pp). Meekstone stops enough, there aren't that many 1/1 and 2/2 swarms in Legacy anymore cause there aren't as efficient as the Goyf.
If you can always race the Goyfs, than you don't need Meekstone, but you don't.
You don't always need to play the beatdown, is Thresh a bad deck cause it plays answers?

Iranon

06-16-2008, 07:00 AM

Thresh has damage sources that stick; it can afford many reactive cards. If I have a 'Goyf that sticks and my opponent doesn't have anything that outclasses it, I'm perfectly happy with drawing answers because the game is going my way and I'll win in a couple of turns.

If I play Burn and draw answers, I'm hurting my own game plan considerably more because I can't put my opponent on a clock without new threats. Stalling the opponent for 3 turns isn't much of an achievement... I'll on average draw roughly 4-5 points of Burn during that time. Regular 3-mana burn spells deal just that. Pulse of the Forge can easily deal 8 if I'm being put on a clock.

matelml

06-16-2008, 07:18 AM

Meekstone isn't a clock or threat, but all this deck needs to win is time. Not many decks can actually stop this decks gameplan, most of the time you lose, you are outraced.
Sure a 3 cc spell might do 4-5 damage, but this is a 1 cc spell. I'd say a 1cc spell that deals 4-5 damage is a pretty good deal. And if you land it on turn 1, it will probably stall for more than 3 turns.
You could see it as "Pay 1: Draw +-3 cards"
Pulse of the Forge might be good, but I don't like 3cc spells in burn, you just get stuck on 2 lands many times or wan't to scry away the 3rd land for a burn spell.

bigbear102

06-16-2008, 04:25 PM

I dare say that Thresh is the most common deck that plays Goyf.

They also play a combo that you may not have heard of, it's referred to as CounterTop. With that in play, burn's gameplan is effectively shut down. Meekstone also gets countered by it, and FoW, and Daze if you play it turn 1. Dropping Meekstone against Thresh does nothing but slow the entire game down, at which point thresh beats your face in with card advantage. So they can't swing with Goyf, they will find either 4 goyfs to kill you with over the course of the game, or find an answer to meek, be it grip or explosives.

Burn does not want answers MD unless those answers do damage (see Flamebreak/Cave-In).

Curby

06-17-2008, 12:22 AM

If you can always race the Goyfs, than you don't need Meekstone, but you don't.

Yes we cannot always race the fastest aggro, but then that's why we're not a tier 1 deck, and have only been in the DTB forum for a few weeks. However, I don't think that further diluting our strengths (consistency and speed) improves the deck.

You don't always need to play the beatdown, is Thresh a bad deck cause it plays answers?

Thresh is a good deck because it can choose to be defensive or aggressive. Burn doesn't have such a choice, because it is not aggro-control, and cannot afford to be.

They say that when a control deck starts going aggro, it has already established board control and has effectively won the game. When an aggro deck is forced to be defensive, it's almost guaranteed to lose. In this context, Burn is the beatdown (always).

Burn does not want answers MD unless those answers do damage (see Flamebreak/Cave-In).

Exactly!

darkalucard

06-18-2008, 09:36 PM

I honestly enjoy people playing this deck because it forces people to re-think there decks and the meta-game.

Although I can beat this deck via Cabal Therapy and Goyf alone.

Sims

06-18-2008, 11:35 PM

I honestly enjoy people playing this deck because it forces people to re-think there decks and the meta-game.

Although I can beat this deck via Cabal Therapy and Goyf alone.

This is not necessarily true. A therapy can be critical in removing Prices or Fireblasts that could win the game on the next turn, however a lot of times goyf can be raced unless it's backed up by Counterbalance or heavy countermagic/discard. No, the deck may not be Threshold, but the deck is still more consistant and powerful than most people give it credit for and will roll people who get too cocky.

darkalucard

06-19-2008, 03:05 AM

I completely agree it can beat cocky players that think burn sucks till they realize it really a bad match up. :laugh:

As for me maybe it was because when I play against burn the most feared card is Price of Progress... and the deck I was playing wasn't running non-basics. o.O Anti-Meta Tech FTW?

I honestly am very scared to play against burn, its one of my most feared match-ups because I tend to play control decks and such...

NecroYawgmoth

06-27-2008, 11:06 AM

Hmmm, in a Burn Deck with only Burnspells (no Creatures, no StreetWraith, Manamorphosis etc.) would you recommend to run Incinerate or Keldon Marauders?

16 Bolts
4 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 ???
3 Flamebreak
2 Shard Volley

17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

MfG YawG

Nihil Credo

06-27-2008, 12:27 PM

Neither. Mogg Fanatic > Keldon Marauders. Chumpblocking also helps "against" Flame Rift.

esmandil

06-28-2008, 12:14 PM

No it isn't.

But: Keldon Marauders > Mogg Fanatic >>> Incinerate

Valtrix

06-28-2008, 02:10 PM

How about just running no creatures? >_> I guess marauders is fine, since if it hits, it'll always do 2 damage. However, I just feel like there could be better cards to run.

Angantyr

06-28-2008, 02:37 PM

No it isn't.

But: Keldon Marauders > Mogg Fanatic >>> Incinerate

Well, I play Marauders and Mogg, both give the deck more consistency without disrupting the deckplan.

16 Mountain
2 Barbarian ring
2 Shard Volley
4 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt

munkie

06-28-2008, 03:50 PM

No one likes Flame Javelin? Damn.

Mr.T

06-29-2008, 02:55 PM

This is a deck that I used to play years back, and had good success with.

//1cc
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shock
4 Chain Lightning
4 Firebolt
4 Mogg Fanatic
//2cc
4 Incinerate
4 Flame Rift
3 Price Of Progress
//3cc
4 Ball Lightning
//6cc
4 Fireblast

//Land
4 Wasteland
4 Barbarian Ring
13 Mountain

TooCloseToTheSun

06-29-2008, 04:38 PM

I think ball lightning is a bad choice because it is stopped so easily. Think about it even mogg fantastic bests it

Hopo

06-30-2008, 05:03 AM

I think ball lightning is a bad choice because it is stopped so easily. Think about it even mogg fantastic bests it

Ball lightning isn't main deck material but it might be usable from the sideboard as people tend to board removal out against burn. I'm pretty sure that people already have discussed about this, though.

joey223

07-01-2008, 04:44 AM

You read it wrong it's:

1: 3 (Bolt)
2: 6 (Bolt, Bolt)
3: 10 (Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast)

If you drew the nuts and hit 6, 3 damage for a :r: a Fireblast and the 3 the land, the you can kill them...

On another note, does anyone have the list that took 4th at GP Hollywood side event? Apparently it was a burn list played by a 14 year old Girl!!! Nice...

does anyone have this burn list?
or a link to it?

thanks

raggster

07-03-2008, 01:59 PM

No one likes Flame Javelin? Damn.

I do, but I believe it's meta-dependent. My meta's heavy on CounterTop-driven decklists, so Flame Javelin's 6cc-converted cost helps get around that. If you're loca meta's more aggressive, I'd stick to the lower-cost burn spells.

NecroYawgmoth

07-05-2008, 02:59 PM

My actual Deck looks like this:

I try to aim for the fastest Damage-Output, and for the biggest consistency.

I also want to ask if something important is missing in the Board...

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Incinerate
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Flamebreak

16 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Shattering Spree
3 Red Elemental Blast

MfG YawG

Zach Tartell

07-05-2008, 03:03 PM

I also want to ask if something important is missing in the Board...

Shusher. Not to be confused with Husher. He lets you get through Counterbalance. And he's much better than running janky spells like Flame Javelin (sorry, but I'd rather just run Flames of the Blood hand for the same cost (and more effect)) to dodge Counterbalance.

Dark_Cynic87

07-05-2008, 08:21 PM

On creatures, I think 4 is as few as you can run for the Ichorid matchup. They goldfish faster than you, and your removal power really lacks against Ichorids. Obviously you can keep their Narcomoebas off the table, but they will just use Ichorids for the combo. You can race Ichorid beats, but you can't beat the combo.

I prefer Fanatics over Maruaders.

Hanni

07-07-2008, 01:16 AM

Here's a list I've been playing around with that has been very fun in testing:

R/u Blurn
Fetchland Burn

Lands (17)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
6 Mountain

Spells (43)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Street Wraith
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Price of Progress
2 Flame Rift
2 Flamebreak
4 Fireblast

(Sideboard (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Stifle//Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt

The cantrips allow me to only run the best burn spells. They take away from speed, a little, but add huge consistency. Brainstorm -> Lightning Bolt costs the same as Incinerate though, so oftentimes it doesn't feel any slower than normal. 12 cantrips + 4 scry cards add tremendous card quality for the deck, allowing it to outplay some otherwise difficult matchups. I actually 2-0'd Faerie Stompy with this deck on MWS (the first matchup I played with the deck), which was always a hard matchup for burn (whether or not FS is a relevant matchup, I don't know). The digging also makes postboard games better by getting sideboard answers faster.

The deck has been performing very well for me on MWS, though I haven't played with it alot.

My sideboard choices are aimed at answering Chalice, Counterbalance, graveyards, tokens (Zombie/EtW), and combo. The deck should easily be able to beat aggro and most control. REB and EE do a great job of answering Counterbalance most of the time, coming in for Street Wraith and a few burn spells (matchup dependant on what burn comes out).

I'm not a big fan of Shusher because it only works if it comes down first... if a Counterbalance is already in play, you probably won't resolve Shusher through it, where EE does. Even if it does come down first, it's extremely mana intensive when you could simply just REB the Counterbalance from coming into play. Shusher gets nailed easily by removal, regardless if they side removal out for game 2.

I prefer Crypt over Leyline since this deck cannot hardcast Leyline.

I'm testing right now whether I prefer Stifle or Pillar vs combo.

PowrDragn

07-07-2008, 01:42 AM

Why is Street Wraith on this list?

THEchubbymuffin

07-07-2008, 01:47 AM

Why is Street Wraith on this list?

which list are you talking about?

EDIT: street wraith is used for the free cycling ability. It thins your deck and replaces itself for 2 life, which would be great if you knew you were drawing a burn spell and not a land.

Hanni

07-07-2008, 01:56 AM

Why is Street Wraith on this list?

Because it works well with the rest of the deck. What's your biggest criticism vs Street Wraith, consistency? My list has plenty of consistency. Street Wraith allows me to run the most efficient burn spells (in conjunction with the cantrips). It also has small synergy with my cantrips and Magma Jet. Between 8 fetchlands and 8 cantrips, the additional deck thinning doesn't hurt either.

raharu

07-07-2008, 01:58 AM

Vexing Shusher can't be countered.
Straight from magiccards.info. That means spells or abilities. Just to clarify.

A actually like that deck a little bit, although I wonder why you wouldn't A) Paly Stifle against combo, as Pillar isn't that effective, B) run a split on blasts (although I'm aware that it's seriously not that important), and C) Play Mishra's Bauble or Manampophose in the Wraith slot because Manampophose fixes mana for your cantrips and the Bauble gives you possibly relevant information, where Wraith does neither.

Sims

07-07-2008, 02:06 AM

I'm not a big fan of Shusher because it only works if it comes down first... if a Counterbalance is already in play, you probably won't resolve Shusher through it

My experience with Shusher comes more from Goyf Sligh and things with more critters, but this stands out to me..... How does Shusher not resolve through Counterbalance? First line of text in Shusher's box says "Vexing Shusher cannot be countered."

edit: beaten to the punch, as usual.

PowrDragn

07-07-2008, 02:14 AM

The reason I ask is that you are simply using a card slot to get one space deeper in the deck during a game. The hope is that the next card is a burn spell.

So, why not just make Street Wraith 4x Burn Spell?

redmage

07-07-2008, 04:52 AM

So, why not just make Street Wraith 4x Burn Spell?

Because Wizards hasn't printed enough "good" burn to fill out the deck. Too many of our "bolts", and our 4-for-2's, are subpar and/or conditional. Wraith allows you to run a virtual "56 card deck" which keeps your ratio of "good burn" higher.

Clark Kant

07-07-2008, 07:17 AM

Hanni,

The best burn spells are what they are because they let you win fast, a turn 4 win consistently.

Running Brainstorm and Ponder to get to these best burn spells is counterproductive. You want to play a burn spell with every mana you use. Wasting your first turn playing Brainstorm rather than Lightning Bolt means you give your opponent one extra turn to combo out, resolve counterbalance, gain life or something else. Brainstorm does very little for this deck. For the most part, a lot of burn's spell are very similar and pretty interchangable, not many silver bullets to go and look for. If you really want to splash, splash white for lightning helix.

Street Wraith is fine, because he uses no mana to cantrip and thus doesn't slow your winning turn by one.

Hanni

07-07-2008, 08:12 AM

First line of text in Shusher's box says "Vexing Shusher cannot be countered."

My bad, completely forgot that he himself cannot be countered.

Still, he can be the victim of removal and he's also mana intensive if you're using his ability for every burn spell you cast. EE also has multiple purposes, where Shusher is just an answer to Counterbalance (and Chalice).

Running Brainstorm and Ponder to get to these best burn spells is counterproductive. You want to play a burn spell with every mana you use. Wasting your first turn playing Brainstorm rather than Lightning Bolt means you give your opponent one extra turn to combo out, resolve counterbalance, gain life or something else. Brainstorm does very little for this deck. For the most part, a lot of burn's spell are very similar and pretty interchangable, not many silver bullets to go and look for. If you really want to splash, splash white for lightning helix.

I've won alot of games on turn 4 when leading off with turn 1 Brainstorm. The only times I've ever had problems with the cantrips is if I draw too many in the early game, which slows down my tempo. Otherwise, I've won a ton of games purely because of the cantrips.

I'm not sure how casting Brainstorm into the R for 3's is less mana efficient than casting 1R for 3's, but okay. Lightning Helix...? Who cares about lifegain and its still a 2cc for 3.

The cantrips add, what I think, is much needed consistency. Sometimes it slows the deck down a bit... but for the most part, I haven't felt much difference at all as far as being able to goldfish turn 4 consistently.

---

Again, this is just a fun version I've been testing. Is it the best? Obviously not. Have I been doing well with it? Yes, I have.

Vetinari

07-07-2008, 08:31 AM

Wouldn't Manamorphose be better than SW? It's ability can be marginally useful at times (for EE or to get U) and you don't loose life (sometimes amounting to getting an extra turn).

Joon

07-07-2008, 08:55 AM

Still, he can be the victim of removal and he's also mana intensive if you're using his ability for every burn spell you cast. EE also has multiple purposes, where Shusher is just an answer to Counterbalance (and Chalice).

Normally you use Shusher in response to their counter. If not, they counter the spell in response to the ability. So it won't make every spell you play more expensive - just the ones they try to counter. With Chalice you're obviously right, though.

EDIT: In addition to that people tend to board out Removal against Burn.

Wallace

07-07-2008, 01:13 PM

I try to aim for the fastest Damage-Output, and for the biggest consistency.

Ummmm...duh?

My actual Deck looks like this:

I try to aim for the fastest Damage-Output, and for the biggest consistency.

I also want to ask if something important is missing in the Board...

3 Mogg Fanatic...

MfG YawG

If you are aiming for "fastest Damage-Output, and for the biggest consistency", then why are you running Mogg Fanatic? Fanatic wil do 1 maybe 2 damage for :r:, burn really doesn't need to run a creature spell. Try running 4x Manamorphose and dropping the 3x Mogg Fanatic and 1x Flamebreak.

Your board is missing Vexing Shusher, here is the board I run:

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Shattering Spree

PowrDragn

07-07-2008, 01:34 PM

Because Wizards hasn't printed enough "good" burn to fill out the deck. Too many of our "bolts", and our 4-for-2's, are subpar and/or conditional. Wraith allows you to run a virtual "56 card deck" which keeps your ratio of "good burn" higher.

Again, I may not be completely informed in the ways of playing the deck, so bear with me. I'm looking over several spells that seem like they would be more than acceptable:

Char
Flame Jet
Flame of the Blood Hand (meh)
Kindle
Flame Burst
Shard Volley
Flame Javelin
Sonic Burst/Sonic Seizure (meh)
volcanic Hammer

I can understand not wanting a couple of these, since they are aonly 2 for 2. But most of the others seem fine to me. But again, maybe my view is skewed in the wrong direction.

Wallace

07-07-2008, 03:02 PM

Again, I may not be completely informed in the ways of playing the deck, so bear with me. I'm looking over several spells that seem like they would be more than acceptable:

...

I can understand not wanting a couple of these, since they are aonly 2 for 2. But most of the others seem fine to me. But again, maybe my view is skewed in the wrong direction.

Try this:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Flamebreak
4 Price of Progress
3 Magma Jet
2 Fork
4 Manamorphose

3 Barbarian Ring
16 Mountain

Sideboard:

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Shattering Spree

Clark Kant

07-07-2008, 03:47 PM

Wallace

07-07-2008, 04:07 PM

No, Try this:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
2 Spark Elemental

4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Flamebreak
4 Price of Progress
4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith

0 Urza's Bauble
0 Mishra's Bauble
0 Shard Volley
0 Keldon Marauder

18 Mountain

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
4 Smash to Smithreens
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Vexing Shusher

Spark Elemental, good luck with that... Have fun running 4 x Street Wraith and 4 x Flame Rift in the same deck...I do agree with:

0 Urza's Bauble
0 Mishra's Bauble
0 Shard Volley
0 Keldon Marauder

Illissius

07-07-2008, 06:57 PM

The effect of Shusher is effectively to turn every counter they have into a Force Spike.

@ Hanni: Do you ever have trouble with not having a shuffle effect for your Brainstorm, given that you'll usually have to use your first fetchland to find a blue source to cast the Brainstorm with?

Clark Kant

07-07-2008, 07:34 PM

Wallace, I'm confused as to why you're such a big fan of Fork. IF you manage to use it with Fireblast, it's basically a Flame Rift without lifeloss. But you won't get that combo together most games (believe me, I played Fork when not so many great burn spells and cantrips were available). So what then. It's unplayable unless you draw 3 lands, and even then, the best you can hope for is to Fork a Bolt turning Fork into a far more conditional incinerate.

And yes, I have rarely if ever had a problem with Spark Elemental as a 2 of. There is no reason a player would leave a creature untapped to block against burn. So just time the Spark Elemental any time your opponent is tapped out (roughly 70% of the turns in my experience) and you have yourself a Bolt.

Brainstorm + Ponder doesn't work well in burn imho. So you spend one extra mana to draw a lightning bolt one turn faster. Why not just play Incinerate if that's you're after. Without a fetchland, you'll be drawing back the same cards that you put back.

Many of the newer builds don't bother with Incinerate, because it's just not good enough.

Wallace

07-07-2008, 07:43 PM

Hanni

07-08-2008, 01:00 AM

You like Spark Elemental, I like fork

Fork is horrible. It's the price of Incinerate, it's going to do 3 damage on average most of the time, and it's reliant on playing another spell and it resolving. If you want to copy Flame Rift, that's 4 mana in 1 turn and you're only netting 1 additional point of damage over simply running Incinerate in that rare circumstance.

Spark Elemental is also bad. Now the opponent has targets for their dead removal. I suppose if you time it right, it can swing through without getting blocked... unless it gets nailed by a removal spell. Postboard, I'm sure it does exactly what a Bolt should do... but preboard, it's just another subpar burn spell because it is situational.

@ Hanni: Do you ever have trouble with not having a shuffle effect for your Brainstorm, given that you'll usually have to use your first fetchland to find a blue source to cast the Brainstorm with?

Not really... sometimes I don't necessarily want to get rid of anything, othertimes I do have another fetch (sometimes I do have an actual Volc in the starter). Magma Jet can also filter away cards after a Brainstorm.

Brainstorm + Ponder doesn't work well in burn imho. So you spend one extra mana to draw a lightning bolt one turn faster. Why not just play Incinerate if that's you're after. Without a fetchland, you'll be drawing back the same cards that you put back.

Well, there are other benefits to the cantrips... I was simply comparing Brainstorm + Lightning Bolt to Incinerate to show that it doesn't always affect the [mana] curve, which was a huge criticism for running cantrips. Aside from that, they increase consistency... I'm landscrewed less often and I'm land flooded less often. I've lost alot of games playing burn due to those 2 inconsistencies alone. Again, I'm drawing only the best burn spells and the cantrips prevent me from getting gassed quite often. 1 Brainstorm can often change the entire game around. There are quite a few positives for running them. I do agree that there are some negatives as well... however, I feel that the pros outweigh the cons.

And again, I'm not saying that the cantrip build is the evolution of burn or anything like that. However, I play around with burn every once in a while because the strategy of Burn is a nice break from things like Intuition Thresh and such. To date, with Burn, I've had the most success so far with the cantrip build.

Clark Kant

07-08-2008, 01:44 AM

I'm skeptical but if you so sure, I'll try it out, I have all the cards from thresh anyways.

As for Spark Elemental, for the most part you don't need to time it for blocker. They attack with their creatures every turn anyways as they don't expect a creature from a pure burn deck.

You just time it so that their lands are tapped out whenever you play Sparky, which seems to be roughly 70% of the time since the games end so early on. And that's only preboard when you have some inkling of reason to suspect they play removal.

If you play it right, Spark Elemental is pretty much identical to Lava Spike. As a 2 of he's definately worth running imo. Keldon Marauders is also very solid, though you can't as easily ensure it deals 5 damage, it many times won't, it will always deal 2 damage atleast which is nice. Shard Volley could also work as the 2 of.

Curby

07-08-2008, 02:47 AM

As for Spark Elemental, for the most part you don't need to time it for blocker. They attack with their creatures every turn anyways as they don't expect a creature from a pure burn deck.

You just time it so that their lands are tapped out whenever you play Sparky, which seems to be roughly 70% of the time since the games end so early on. And that's only preboard when you have some inkling of reason to suspect they play removal.

If you play it right, Spark Elemental is pretty much identical to Lava Spike. As a 2 of he's definately worth running imo. Keldon Marauders is also very solid, though you can't as easily ensure it deals 5 damage, it many times won't, it will always deal 2 damage atleast which is nice. Shard Volley could also work as the 2 of.

Right now I run 2 Volleys in place of your 2 Elementals, and for me this is the right choice. I must point out that some critters have vigilance, most have summoning sickness, and a few even have flash, so even aside from removal, getting across the red zone isn't guaranteed. You can time it, and I'm sure that your experience is valid, but I'd rather play a 2-of that truly guarantees damage (aside from countermagic).

Also, how much fast aggro do you have in your meta? Using Wraiths and Flame Rifts together is too dangerous for me, as my games with Burn are usually decided with just a few life on either side of the table. I can't let go of Flame Rift because it's just too good, but Wraith is currently unused.

When I get 6 more fetches, I'll be very interested in trying out a splashy burn. If nothing else, the increased consistency sounds great. Remember, burn is slow combo and combo is all about consistency. Any deck that draws a Fireblast, a Flame Rift, and 4 bolts can win in 3 turns, and pretty much all decks run those cards. The trick is to get those cards more often, and with the right amount of land and life at the end.

Clark Kant

07-08-2008, 03:40 AM

Curby

07-08-2008, 06:33 AM

You also open yourself up to both Stifle and Wasteland.

It also means you'll be taking self inflicted damage when you cast Price of Progress.

This has always been the problem with splashing, but it seems like a bit of a light splash, in which you will want to cast maybe 3 blue spells in a game. Perhaps 1 Island, 2 Volcanics, and 8 Fetches (2-3 of which fetch blue) strike a decent balance. 11 blue sources should be plenty in what's ultimately a heavily red deck. (Manamorphose also helps.)

Clark Kant

07-08-2008, 09:39 AM

I tried the same list that Hanni posted in the previous page (it doesn't run Manamorphose). That's a problem, say you run 11 blue sources, many games, you won't draw a blue source, at all.

Fairie Stompy runs 14 blue sources, and yet I frequently have to mulligan from not seeing a single blue source in the opening hand. 10 Land Stompy runs 14 sources counting the land grants, and same story of having to mulligan often from not seeing a green source.

So with a 11 sources, you will have opening hands with no blue source, but with a blue card. I encountered my share just in the short time I tried this deck out. Should you mulligan? What's the point, you have a dead card = the card you lose by mulliganing.

Don't forget, this is burn, the games are designed to end by turn 4, you have little chance of topdecking a blue source in those 4 turns.

You will have a blue card or two in your hand many games, and will be unable to cast them.

Hanni

07-08-2008, 07:30 PM

I threw together the blue splash build on MWS breifly.

But it already seems to me that splashing blue to add consistency is counterproductive.

You can get colorscrewed out of blue pretty easily but with brainstorms in you rhand that you can't play.

You also open yourself up to both Stifle and Wasteland.

It also means you'll be taking self inflicted damage when you cast Price of Progress.

The deck doesn't get colorscrewed any worse than any of the other tons of decks out there that are 2c, 3c, 4c, etc.

I agree that you do open yourself up to Wasteland/Stifle, whereas you wouldn't if you stayed monocolor. However, I don't really see Wasteland being an issue... unless you get a bad draw, where all you have is a Volc starting, you shouldn't have a problem. The deck runs 6 basic mountains. I can see Stifle possibly screwing you... but no worse than any other deck with fetchlands.

The thing with PoP... you're really only taking 2 damage from it, since you should almost never have more than 1 Volc in play at a time AND you can sac them away to Fireblasts. Even if you take 4, it's still doing the exact same thing that Flame Rift does (considering you should almost never cast PoP when the opponent only has 1 nonbasic out).

I tried the same list that Hanni posted in the previous page (it doesn't run Manamorphose). That's a problem, say you run 11 blue sources, many games, you won't draw a blue source, at all.

Many games, you don't draw a blue spell at all. 11 blue sources for 8 blue spells. You also have 4 Street Wraith and 4 Magma Jet's to filter.

Fairie Stompy runs 14 blue sources, and yet I frequently have to mulligan from not seeing a single blue source in the opening hand. 10 Land Stompy runs 14 sources counting the land grants, and same story of having to mulligan often from not seeing a green source.

Faerie Stompy is a blue deck. This deck runs 8 blue spells, none of which are mandatory to play, all of which don't need to be played turn 1. The deck also has more filtering than Faerie Stompy. If you are mulliganing hands because you don't have a blue source in the opener, you should reconsider how you play the deck. In all of the testing I've done with the deck, the manabase has never been an issue. People run a green splash all the time for Krosan Grip and run considerably less draw/cantrip/filtering.

Don't forget, this is burn, the games are designed to end by turn 4, you have little chance of topdecking a blue source in those 4 turns.

Not always. The deck should goldfish turn 4 but that doesn't always happen. The ability to goldfish turn 4 isn't really any less of a factor in here anyway. Instead of running cards like Keldon Marauder (2cc for 2 dmg), Fanatic (1cc for 1 damage), etc, this deck just cantrips into better burn spells (especially Fireblast more consistently), thusly negating the loss in tempo immensely from casting the cantrip.

Many games, you can't win turn 4. Whether the deck screws you (too little land, too much lands), or the matchup is designed to where you need to play more of a control role (burn aggro), the gameplan isn't always a turn 4 win. The cantrips allow the deck to play the control role much, much better... that's how I won vs Faerie Stompy in the face of SoLS, Jitte, and even a few Chalices (digging for 2cc burn/EE in response). So on and so forth.

You will have a blue card or two in your hand many games, and will be unable to cast them.

About as often as having a green card in hand or two and being unable to cast them in Threshold or something, sure. The consistency of it happening? Rarely. The effect on the gamestate when it does occur? Usually minimal.

Curby

07-09-2008, 01:18 AM

The deck doesn't get colorscrewed any worse than any of the other tons of decks out there that are 2c, 3c, 4c, etc.

I can see Stifle possibly screwing you... but no worse than any other deck with fetchlands.

What you say is true, but that doesn't mean it's a good argument. One of Burn's greatest strengths is its consistency, but it most often loses due to poor consistency (mana screw/flood) and poor resiliency.

Burn has good consistency because the spells are low-cost, and they have similar enough effects that many games play similarly. If a spell isn't discarded or countered, it's pretty much guaranteed to further your gameplan. That is also why it is resilient. It can ignore the hassles of creature combat, and it doesn't have any silver bullet spells that must resolve for the win (as with combo decks that end with a finisher spell).

However, we all know that in high level tournament play, it isn't enough. When we get mana-screwed, we get really screwed. When we get hated by Countertop and Chalices, that's nearly impossible to recover from. The question is how much splashing blue helps (1) consistency and (2) resilience.

If playtesting shows that colorscrew is unlikely, then the consistency is certainly improved by sculpting the topdeck and shuffling away chaff.

However, by opening yourself up to previously-dead hate such as Stifle, you're making yourself less resilient. Sure, it doesn't hurt you any more than another deck with fetches, but the point is to not be hurt at all by the changes we're making.

We have two clear weaknesses. Let's not make them worse.

That said, I'm still interested in trying it. :tongue:

technogeek5000

07-16-2008, 05:17 PM

Well, I dont play burn, although I do have a burn deck. If I was to bring it to a tournament, here is what I would play.

4 Bloodstained mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 barbarian ring
5 mountain

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 Lava spike
4 Rift bolt
4 Price of progress
4 Mogg fanatic
4 Magma jet
4 Fireblast
4 Flame rift
3 Flamebreak
2 Keldon Marauders

4 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the void
4 Smash to smithereens
2 Pyroblast
1 REB

The way I see it is, if permanent disruption pieces are what kills this deck the most (mostly counterbalance) then why not have outs to it. The blasts really are not enough to stop CB (even thoguh they still help) so splashing for the best out seems simple. I have 12 sources of green and splashing green does nothing to disrupt the flow of the decks speed.

Curby

07-16-2008, 06:56 PM

I've notice you often splash Leyline into decks that can't hardcast it. =) Do you think it's worth the dead topdeck?

Anyway, one problem I see is using a lot of suicide. Fetches, Barb Ring, PoP, Flamebreak, and Flame Rift could add up. Have you tested this build against fast aggro to see if it ends up killing itself more often than it should? Why not use only 2 Taigas and fetch them when you need them? It would reduce the chances of having to play one when you didn't need it, and opening yourself up to Wasteland, PoP damage, etc.

I run the Flamebreaks, Flame Rifts, and a couple Barb Rings. I'd love to use Street Wraith but it's just too risky... I often end up winning at just a couple of life as it is.

technogeek5000

07-16-2008, 07:10 PM

Well, the way I see it is that Leyline is just as good of a topdeck in a deck that cant hardcast it compared to a deck that can hardcast it. The decks it gets sided in for (ichorid, aggro loam, GRAVEYARD etc..) really only care if its coming down on the first turn because A: Ichorid kills very early on and a turn 3-4 Leyline will have just as much effect on them as not playing it does B: you really only need to stall decks that use the graveyard for a few turns to allow you to win (aggro loam cant cast dreams against us in the first 3 turns without seriously harming themselves if they dont have loam). Yes I do think it is worth the dead topdeck because Leyline of the Void is extremely broken. Im glad you noticed, I havent left for a tournament without a playset of them in over a year.

No I havent tested that, but I will against goblins and whatnot.

Valtrix

07-16-2008, 11:53 PM

Huh, I actually thought about having a burn deck with green in it as well, though I made mine somewhat different. I never really did much with it, but I really did like it. Sylvan library and manamorphose are just cool here, and grip is an obvious choice in the board. The board here isn't really that important besides that, I guess. I probably would swap guerilla tactics for REB or something, but I tend to run into somewhat decent amount of discard. Just a simple list, hurt it what you will:

// Lands
3 [OD] Barbarian Ring
9 [10E] Mountain (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Taiga

// Spells
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
3 [DS] Flamebreak
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Sylvan Library
4 [JU] Browbeat
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [10E] Incinerate
2 [FNM] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [9E] Guerrilla Tactics
SB: 2 [JU] Breaking Point
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Curby

07-17-2008, 12:54 AM

Whoops, duh. Manamorphose is great for anyone who wants to splash (and even those who don't).

I'm not convinced that Sylvan Library does much though. I don't think paying 4 life per card would let you win any race, and if you're just sculpting topdecks, Mirri's Guile or Sensei's Divining Top is better.

I'd use more Flamebreaks and Cave-Ins rather than Breaking Point for the same reason that I'd use Flames of the Blood Hand rather than Browbeat. I don't want to give my opponent choices!

electrolyze

07-21-2008, 07:43 AM

after some testing with burn i think i've came out on a really strong build:

1c:

4xlighting bolt
4xchain lightning
4xlava spike
4xmogg fanatic

2c:

4xmagma jet
4xkeldon marauders
4xincinerate
4xprice of progress

3c:

4xrift bolt
2xflame javelin

other:

4xfireblast

land:

16xmountain
2xbarbarian ring

side:

4xvexing shusher
4xshattering spree
4xsome anti combo thing, i run chalice for testing now.
3xblood moon

i think this build is really strong and fast, i dont run flamebreak main because there is not that many aggro in my meta that can race this build. and i dont run sulfuric vortex because i didnt like it when i was testing the deck, it feels like it was too slow for the deck.

the weird slots in the deck are flame javelin and incinerate i think.

i play incinerate because i wanted antother good 3 damage spell, so i think this card fits really wel in the deck, especially when playing against chalice decks(most of the time on 1).

flame javelin are my testing slots right now, i always have 2 slots open so thats why. maybe it could be flame rift, vortex or flamebreak.

what do you people think of the list?

bigbear102

07-29-2008, 03:42 PM

If you are splashing a color I would definitely suggest using Manamorphose. I am not a proponent of running cards just because they cantrip, but MM lets you get around color screw without running into too much hate. For a green build running green in the board (sylvan library is ass), my mana base would be:

8x Fetch
2x Taiga
8x Mountain
4x Manamorphose

That would allow you to almost always see something to produce green by the time you want to be casting Grip, which is about the only reason to splash green.

Wallace

07-29-2008, 04:20 PM

Burn really doesn't need to splash a color, the only card/cards that consistently cause problems for this deck are Counterbalance, Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void. By running Shattering Spree in the board, that takes care of 3sphere and CotV, most of the time. CB is a little harder to deal with, running Vexing Shusher should help a little bit. I think cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Rift Bolt and Flame Javelin and Fireblast will help even more. 3cc+ spells have been a problem for CB based decks for a while now. If you put all of those card together then you have a good combination to help deal with the dreaded :u::u: spell.

Here is the list I have been testing for a Combo, counterbalance Meta:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast

4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
3 Shard Volley
3 Flame Javelin
3 Flamebreak
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Wheel of Fate

16 Mountain
3 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Shattering Spree
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Flamebreak
1 Gaea's Blessing

bigbear102

07-29-2008, 05:05 PM

Wheel of Fate is horrible. I know you know that I'm gonna say it, so there it is. It costs 2 to suspend, which means it won't be active until turn 6. It is not reliable considering you have no way of finding it, and it will hardly ever actually do what you want it to, considering all of the decks that it might actually be decent against will just save a counter for it. Aggro/Combo decks will kill or be killed by then, and control/aggrocontrol will not care bacause they will counter it.

I would much rather see it being your 4th Vortex or Flamebreak MD. You may also want to consider adding 1-2 more 2 drops, considering ur curve jumps a bit.

Curby

07-29-2008, 05:18 PM

Wallace

07-29-2008, 07:32 PM

Yeah, what he said re: Wheel and Library.

Plus, why Flame Javelin? It's new, but it's not shiny. Flames of the Blood Hand and Pulse of the Forge both have useful tricks and side effects. Sure you can hit a critter with Flame Javelin, but pretty much everything else in the deck can do that anyway. Personally I'd just use Flame Rift and end the game more quickly, but that's me. =)

Yeah but Flames of the blood hand and Pulse of the Forge both say target player, I know, I know, this is burn and you shouldn't be targeting creatures. I have won so many games with Flame Javelin just because it kills the turn 2 or 3 Goyf that kicked my ass for 3 or 4 turns. There are so many games where Pulse/Flames just needed to say "target creature or Player" and I would have pulled it off.

I used to say the same thing about Wheel of Fate, then I saw the deck that finished 4th at the GP Indy side event. It was running 3 of them along with 4 Vortex and MB Pyrostatic Pillar. I tested it a few times and it was just what I thought it was, terrible. I started with 3 and then went down to 2, I almost cut it all together but wanted to try it as a 1 of. When I dropped it turn 2 or 3 it is/was amazing, yeah it got countered a bunch but when it resolved, o boy! The major disadvantage is that it's a shitty top deck and it has a cc of 0 so Counterbalance owns it, but counterbalance owns the whole deck so nbd. Just try it before you knock it...

I would much rather see it being your 4th Vortex or Flamebreak MD. You may also want to consider adding 1-2 more 2 drops, considering ur curve jumps a bit.

The curve does jump a little, but with 19 :r: drops and 9 :1::r: drops that gives the deck 28 spells that can be played for 2 mana or lees and 4 that are free (Sac 2 mountains to Fireblast). So the 6 spells that cost :r::r::r: and 3 that cost :1::r::r: thats only 9 3 cc spells, I almost always works out.

NecroYawgmoth

08-05-2008, 05:54 PM

OK dudes, here is my new Burn-List... I just want to be as fast as possible, but I don't like Baubles...

Speed Burn V1.0

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
2 Shard Volley

4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
4 Manamorphose

2 Barbarian Ring
16 Mountain

Sideboard:

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's Crypt

I think it looks good - solid and fast- or what do you think? I don't like Incinerate, but there are no other good cards I could play in this slot, or?

YawG

Willoe

08-05-2008, 06:14 PM

Wallace

08-05-2008, 06:31 PM

Thought Flamebreak was pretty mandatory. I swear to that card. The fact that it mini-wraths AND deals damage makes it worth playing it. It can deal with mongoose and it almost always dodges counterbalance. I'd replace Incinerate with this fella.

Yeah good call here, Flamebreak provides that EARLY game board sweeper that burn sometimes needs. I would run Flamebreak over Incinerate and add a 3rd Shard Volley. (-4 Incinerate, +3 Flamebreak, +1 Shard Volley)

Clark Kant

08-05-2008, 06:59 PM

OK dudes, here is my new Burn-List... I just want to be as fast as possible, but I don't like Baubles...

Then play Street Wraith

+4 Street Wraith
-4 ?????????????

I'm also wondering if, given the Fireblast, you would be better off playing Mountains over Barbarian Ring.

I wish someone could do some stats to figure out which is the case.

Other wise, the list looks perfect.

As for what cards to cut for Street Wraith.

IMO, the weakest cards in your maindeck are...
Shard Volley, Incinerate and Magma Jet (you're going for pure speed here, and Magma Jet just isn't that fast).

Do with that information what you will.

I opt to not run any of them. Then again, my meta just isn't as hostile towards creatures so I can get away with play Spark Elemetnal and Keldon Marauders.

Willoe

08-05-2008, 07:59 PM

As much as it slows Burn, I feel that Magma Jet is absolutely necessary. The ability of manipulating the next two cards, and therefore, a greater chance of avoiding pseudo-timewalks (drawing mountains) is needed. If I could find out how to exactly analyse graphical, I'd make a curve of how Magma Jet helps you. Some says that Magma Jet is necessary insurance, some say it's win-more. I hate the low burn-rate, but I simply love scry.

Street Wraith doesn't belong in burn, imo. Unlike Fetchland Tendrils where it has purposes (and Street Wraith is - as far as I know - outdated in Fetchland Tendrils) of drawing the card from your mystical tutor, from your doomsday stack and from your brainstorm/ponder, Street Wraith does simply nothing in Burn. Reducing deck size has its risks.

Here's the advantages of Street Wraith maindecked:

It replaces "the worst card in your deck"

That's it.

Here's disadvantages (even though they are small ones, they are worth mentioning)

Cycling is stiflable. I once lost due to that with Street Wraith. I've hated the card since. Opponent was at 2, I had 2 mountains in play and topdecked a street wraith. I had a a very great chance of drawing a burn spell, but instead, the opponent timewalked me with stifle and killed me with dreadnought next turn. Obviously, Fireblast was on top.

2 life does matter. You are more likely to lose the mirror match as 2 life is important against burn.

You can't race most combo. Therefore, 2 life equals one less played spell from the storm player.

You don't know what card street wraith actually is. It's like drawing an opening hand and then turn a card face down. Burn should be able to make the opponent enter the red zone and then win from topdecked burn spells. You can't rely on that concept with street wraiths, manamorphose and baubles.

I conclude that the only way that you can actually thin the deck is by fetchlands, even though I don't like doing that. Meddling Mages, Stifles, Trickbinds, Supression Field, extirpates and such can ruin your game.

All deckthinning is at a risk, no doubt about it. Burn should be played with at least risk as possible, whilst still ensuring that you eventually will win before the opponent.

----------------

Barbarian Ring is a no-go IMO. Let's look at how fast you really can reach threshold (with a list with only fetchlands as extra thresh pieces)

1.Fetch, bolt, 2 cards in yard, go.
2.Fetch, bolt, bolt, 5 cards in yard.
3.Ring, bolt, bolt, bolt, threshold.
4.Untap, at first time you gain priority, activate ring. Opp dead.

NOTE: This is as fast as it can go. This only happens when you have a somewhat god-hand. Other that that, the only pro of Barbarian Ring is that it is uncounterable and a nice topdeck in late-game while serving as an extra burn spell.

But:

It's a nonbasic land. Wasteland is now a threat.
It deals damage to us, even 2 damage can equal a loss of the race.
It's relevant ability can be stifled. Stifle is very overplayed at the moment.

Conclusion: Barbarian Ring is too dangerous to run. It opens up windows of oppurtunity for our opponents. It makes less cards dead. Really, a burn player's only fear should be:

-Faster decks. Doesn't really exist in the current thresh meta.
-Chalice. Ouch, Chalice aggro can be lame. This can be played around.
-Counterbalance. This can be played around.
-Trinisphere. This slows us a lot, but it's very underplayed, fortunately.
-Lifegain. That sets us back, and a lot of creature-based decks tend to play Loxodon Hierach, a card that in average timewalks us two times.

Why add more to the list?

Btw, simplicity rules. Here's my list:

18 Mountain

4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet
3 Flamebreak
3 Shard Volley

Mind the curve:
1cc - 19
2cc - 12
3cc - 7
4cc - 0
5cc - 0
6cc - 4

Against CounterTop (let's say it's kept at 1), 33% of the deck becomes dead draws. While this might seem terrible, it really isn't. I bet you know how to play around this engine.

Chalice at 1 isn't terrible either. Even though a turn 1 chalice slows you down a lot, it's "I-counter-ccX" value can't be altered, as CounterTop's engine can.

-

Even though I play a creature, you can sacrifice Mogg Fanatic in response to anything, as well as I feel that it's very important to shoot a lackey or a bird turn 1. Especially a bird, that is sort of a timewalk. That lets you draw one more card before a lifegain dude is fetched by survival and next turn played.

My sideboard changes often, as sideboards do. Right now, it's nothing fancy:

4 Pyroblast
4 Shattering Spree
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Another sideboard plan could of course also be a critter-based one. Since most sober opponents will board out creature removal, you can use creatures if they suit you. Magus is chosen over the moon itself simply because of this.

------------

It's late night here in Denmark, and what I've said now might struggle against what I've said in earlier posts. To clarify, this is what I mean right now, and A Legend just made me realize that a 3-3 split between Flamebreak-Shard Volley is faster than 4-2. I'm tinkering with the list right now...

Comments?

Wallace

08-05-2008, 08:11 PM

@ Willoe

I have more games with Barbarian ring than almost any other card. Thresh is easier to reach then you think.

Turn 1: Bolt (1 card in Grave) Opponent's Life 17
Turn 2: Bolt, Bolt (3 cards in Grave) Opponent's Life 11
Turn 3: Flame Rift, Play Barb Ring (4 cards in Grave) Opponent's Life 7
Turn 4: Alt cost Fireblast (7 cards in Grave), Barb. Ring to the face. Opponent's Life 1

Fireblast and shard Volley make hitting threshold a lot easier, Barb. ring is a great way to turn what would be a dead card, if it were a mountain, into an un-counterable burn spell. Barb. ring also deals with pro red creatures, Story circle, C.O.P. Red and Sphere of Law.

Nihil Credo

08-05-2008, 08:45 PM

-Chalice. Ouch, Chalice aggro can be lame. This can be played around.
-Counterbalance. This can be played around.
How?

Curby

08-06-2008, 01:33 AM

Re: Street Wraith: It is the best cantrip, but I can't run it cause I also use Flame Rift, B.Ring, and Flamebreak, and there's still enough aggro in my meta to make life an issue. Instead, I run Manamorphose. By the way, you missed the point that cantrips help build Thresh for Barbarian Ring, which in spite of everything is a good card. If Blue's best card against me is a freaking Stifle, that's great news. (i.e. I expect them to be sided out anyway)

Losing once because of something doesn't automatically make it bad. Just like if Goblins beat you once, you don't switch your entire sideboard to Goblin hate.

It's true that cantrips make mulliganning difficult, because you don't know if the cantrips will replace themselves with gas or land. However, that's taking the extreme case with 8 Baubles, 4 Wraiths, 4 Manamorphose, and 8 fetches. (which would make for a really funny deck to play). If you're just using 4 cantrips, it shouldn't often be a problem.

My burn deck was piloted to a 3-game draw against countertop, and she later told me that tighter play might have turned it into a win. It's quite the uphill struggle, but it can be done. The problem for them is you can cast a lot of spells per turn, and you can run them out of mana if you play fast enough, or you can play burn if they tap out to further their gameplan. Plus, you have two turns before they get the combo online, and that's worth half their life (add a fetch) already. Another possible trick is to Suspend multiple Rift Bolts, and cast Bolts between them on the stack to mix up the casting costs. (Is that legal?)

Against Countertop, see the semifinal round here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=3041791#post3041791

I'd actually think that Chalice might very well be worse game 1. If they drop a 1-counter Chalice first turn, that's usually going to invalidate a third of your deck (say 14/40 business spells). This followed by a 2-counter Chalice will usually mean game. You don't play around that. You can design around that by putting Spree/Boseiju/etc. in, but that's it.

Willoe

08-06-2008, 08:27 AM

Great to see that my thoughts created some discussion.

@A Legend: Yeah, but Barbarian Ring deals damage, but so does so many other things. Consider Barbarian Ring as an uncounterable "R, sacrifice a land, deal 2 damage to opp." That may sound tempting, but I just don't like it. Dealing damage to you AND being vulnerable to wasteland and stifle isn't a good quality for a somewhat - not small, because it wins games - but relatively conditional ability.

@Nihil:
Okay, played around sounded bad, I've realized that now. What I mean is that Chalice and Counterbalance isn't game over. Like I said, we run 19 cc1 spells, something that Counterbalance and Chalice will most likely hit.

Chalice simply kills 33% of your deck. You can still win from that point, it just becomes harder. Price of Progress can still deal a couple of damage, so can Magma Jet, Rift Bolt is great and so on. Flamebreak buys you extra turns, and Fireblast is still the MVP.

Counterbalance is a little more tricky. But the CounterTop requires to keep you locked out of the game. Say the opponent races for the CounterTop engine:

You are on the play:
Turn 1, mountain, bolt effect. Resolves.
Opp turn 1, island, SDT, go.
You turn 2, mountain, 2 bolt effects, go. They will often resolve. FoW is too great of a card loss, and Daze will set them back a turn.
Opp turn 2, Counterbalance, go.
You turn 3, (maybe) mountian, here's the tricky stuff.

You play a lot of instants, and you will play the spells while opponent is manaflooded so that you have a chance of letting that spell resolve.

You'll indeed have to sacrifice some cards while doing this. You don't shoot burn spells per turn. You wait three turns to shoot, and while Thresh might have killed you by now, this is your best shot. Say you're in topdeck mode, opp has active mongoose as his dude. You draw Price of Progress, Shard Volley and Mogg Fanatic. That's not some very good topdecks except for that PoP. Now, if you know the opponent's mana curve (approximately) and look how many Xcc cards that have already left the deck, it's time for some gambling.

I think it's the best strategy to fight the countertop engine:
Play a spell that is most likely not to be countered due to their curve, you'll see the card, and then you will maybe to play your other stuff. In fact, that the opponent lands a mongoose and a tarmogoyf turn 3 is better for you, since you can ignore Sensei's Divining Top for now.

Of course, the opponent can tap his top in response or hard counter your stuff.

So yeah, it can't exactly be played around, but by experience, I think that you have a greater chance of winning if you play more burn spells a turn instead of just drawing - playing. Bait Counterbalance is your best shot here, as it allows you to burn.

Was that explanation enough? I'll correct my word of choice to "Counterbalance can be win through. It's hard but it can be done, read below"

@kirbysdl:

You're right, it really depends on the build. I'd like to keep burn as simple as possible thus negating any further risk instead of the regular risks (we all know them)

I just don't like DeckthinnerBurn, it loses you too many life, and since your life becomes a question, you have to really consider if you aim for the creatures or the opponent.

Yes indeed, chalice at one and two are bad news. But a chalice at one is rarely actual game-over. You still have a lot of outs. But it's pretty rare that the opponent plays turn 1 chalice at one, turn 2 chalice at two. How big is the chance that something like that happens?

---

Really, Burn's worst opponent is obviously the chalice aggro player or the countertop player. Dealing with Counterbalance is often mandatory. Therefore, even I could consider playing 8 fetches and one taiga to play engineered explosives sideboarded. But on the other hand, a higher land count and a nev's disk could do the job, the question is if it's fast enough.

snackfu

08-06-2008, 11:58 AM

Actually, getting thresh for Barb ring is easier than that, assuming opponents are playing with fetchlands and we do not need to deal exactly 20 damage:

Turn one: Bolt (3)
Turn two: Bolt (6), Bolt (9)
Turn three: Bolt (12), Float red and alt cost Fireblast (16), Barb Ring (18)

By turn three, it seems highly likely that someone playing Threshold or the like would have used a fetch or two. Not always, but often.

Plus, it is uncounterable damage in the traditional sense, although the increase in stifle effects changes that.

I will admit that I have a soft spot for barbarian ring from my sligh deck way back in the day when it led me to winning a mox ruby at a power tournament. So maybe I am a little biased.

However, our deck is very straightforward and short on tricks, so I think having a threat outside of the usual gives our opponents something else to think about. Do you know how many people are completely unable to deal with barbarian ring sneaking through the last points of damage? And where do we often stall out or need to come through when people start to stabilize?

Here is my list offhand:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
3 Mogg Fanatic (nod out to having a Game 1 answer to dredge, although tempted to drop for something more explosive)
4 Magma Jet
4 Incinerate
4 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
3 Flamebreak
4 Fireblast

4 Street Wraith

14 Mountain
4 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Price of Progress
4 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Pyroblast

NecroYawgmoth

08-06-2008, 06:33 PM

I don't play Street Wraith because I play Flame Rift and Barbarian Ring.

...But I don't know what's the right Number of Rings to play...(2 or 3)

@Wallace
Yeah good call here, Flamebreak provides that EARLY game board sweeper that burn sometimes needs. I would run Flamebreak over Incinerate and add a 3rd Shard Volley. (-4 Incinerate, +3 Flamebreak, +1 Shard Volley)

...I can't play 4 Fireblast & 3 Shard Volley with 18 Lands... it's a too low land count isn't it?

Is Flamebreak really that good??? I mean did you need it in any Matchup except Goblins??? You are generally faster or??

last question: Does it really make sense to play only one thinner (manamorphose)?

YawG

Wallace

08-06-2008, 06:48 PM

@Wallace

...I can't play 4 Fireblast & 3 Shard Volley with 18 Lands... it's a too low land count isn't it?

I run 19 land with 4 Fireblast & 3 Shard Volley and I don't seem to have a problem. The Shard Volley's have to be played last, you don't just cast them like the rest of your bolts. You can also sac Barbarian ring to Volley if needed, save the mountains for FB.

Is Flamebreak really that good??? I mean did you need it in any Matchup except Goblins??? You are generally faster or??

Yes it is and no you don't play it for just goblins. Flamebreak is really good in a lot of situations, it kills those pesky Mongeese and they work nicely against ETW/BFB tokens. The fact that Flamebreak deals 3 damage to your opponent makes it even better, your not wasting a slot on a removal spell.

last question: Does it really make sense to play only one thinner (manamorphose)?

Just think of it like this, by playing Manamorphose, Street Wraith or the Baubles it's like playing a much smaller deck. 4 MM makes your deck 56 cards, by playing a :0: drop draw spell you will be more likely to draw your business spells, in theory at least.

NecroYawgmoth

08-07-2008, 04:10 PM

...so we say, an optimal (creatureless) List looks like this?

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Shard Volley

4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Magma Jet
3 Flamebraek
3 Manamorphose

3 Barbarian Ring
16 Mountain

Sideboard:

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's Crypt

Sideboard is Meta-Dependent...

What do you guys think of this List now?

Wallace

08-07-2008, 04:46 PM

What do you guys think of this List now?

Looks good, run it and let us know how you do.

Volt

08-07-2008, 04:59 PM

Nihil Credo

08-07-2008, 05:58 PM

I tested with 8 Baubles. Unlike the other free cantrips, they will Time Walk you often enough that you'll scream in frustration. I wouldn't suggest playing more than 3-4 (ideally Mishra's, which can provide Scry 1 when combined with fetchlands).

I do have an interesting list that emerged from "small-deck Burn", but I'll make a different thread for that.

idraleo

08-07-2008, 07:52 PM

Manamorphose and Street Wraith are often the worst playable cards for this deck: if you want to cycle they to get a burn spell and u draw a land they did a time walk for your opponent. Playing MM or SW doesn' t means playing a 56 card deck, it means playing a 60 card deck with the possibility to draw into 24 lands. Shard Volley get' s another worst cards spot: why play them instead of some Incinerate for example? Is the 1 less mana as good as it seems? They are not as good as u thought if you' re running 3 or 4 Barbarian Ring, because you' ll often gonna sacrifice 1 of them to get the drawback less dangerous for your Fireblast. Althought, why play another cc1 spell that blasts another of your land? Assuming that you' ll never gonna play it with a lonely land in play, why don' t run 2 or 3 Incinerate instead? Another point that is still missing from your decklists is that anybody recently seems like Vortex of FotBH on mainboard. FotBH gives the deck a good chance against mirrors and Rock variant mainboard. It shuts down Hierarchs, Baloths, opponent StP on creatures they control, Pulse of the fields if you get some Landstill with Cunning Wish. Here a good decklist, that me and my friends playtested and play a lot, doing some changes on each tournament adding or removing some metacalled card from MB to SB and viceversa:

// Lands
17 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [IA] Incinerate
4 [VI] Fireblast
3 [DS] Flamebreak
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [BOK] Flames of the Blood Hand

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [JU] Flaring Pain

OBV sideboard cards are metacalled, Tormod' s and other stuff like Boil, Anarchy, Shattering Spree, Boseiju and Vortex could be considered if useful.

Wallace

08-07-2008, 11:37 PM

4 [BOK] Flames of the Blood Hand

No, no, no , no no!

This card is terrible in Legacy burn, I am not going to go into why for the 10th time. Read back a few pages and you will read countless reason why it's not played.

RoddyVR

08-08-2008, 09:03 AM

14 Mountain

4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Street Wraith

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Spark Elemental
3 Mogg Fanatic

4 Price of Progress
4 Manamorphose

3 Fireblast

Simple, fast, brutal. Yes, it loses hardcore to Chalice or a quickly-resolved CounterTop. Face it, you lose to those anyway.

If i was gonna play the burn deck i have, it would be similar to this... except mine has:
-4 spark elemental
-3 mogg fanatic
+4 needle drop
+2 Shard Volley
+1 Mountain

makes a burn deck with 20 cards that say "draw a card"... i also think that browbeat should be in there somewhere, just to fill out the theme. I havent actualy ever tried the deck (have better decks to spend my time on), but i think it would be cool to try at some point.

NecroYawgmoth

08-08-2008, 09:29 AM

I never ever liked BaubleBurn...

...look @ your list and ask yourself: What am I doing against an opposing Tarmogoyf???

YawG

Jak

08-08-2008, 09:59 AM

I never ever liked BaubleBurn...

...look @ your list and ask yourself: What am I doing against an opposing Tarmogoyf???

YawG

Winning on turn 5. How is it different than normal burn?

NecroYawgmoth

08-08-2008, 10:19 AM

Jak

08-08-2008, 10:51 AM

...The fact that he is playing Street Wraithes, which lowers his life
...The fact that Baubles draw the card in the next Turns upkeep, which can be very unfourtanely, if its a Sorcery like Lava Spike, Chain Lightning , etc...
...The fact that Baubles/Wraithes strength the Opponents Goyf

When you play Baubles, Mishras is better if you play Fetchlands, but this makes you even weaker against Goyf...

Needle Drop is also a very bad topdeck...

YawG

So running Flamebreak would be better? Burn should be able to race a Tarmogoyf that will start swinging turn 3 for 4 damage. If your deck can't race it then that is bad. The bauble still draw you into the best burn spells available. They are way better than stuff like Flamebreak or Chain of Plasma.

Zach Tartell

08-08-2008, 10:52 AM

Guys, why is everyone just accepting that you lose to Counterbalance? It seems to me that, should you fear that match so much, you should probably have some pretty solid anti-Counterbalance tech. As opposed to, say, 8 Baubles.

Abold (bigbear102 mabye) was testing a burn deck with 8 Fetches for 2 Taigas, and maybe 2 maindecked Grips (and the rest of the playset in the board). I don't understand why you'd just scoop to (what some people tout as) the best deck in the format. Or, certainly the most prolific (in top 8's).

freakish777

08-08-2008, 11:05 AM

I don't think Krosan Grips are necessary even.

Between Fireblast, Rift Bolt, Flamebreak/Cave-In, Barbarian Ring, you should be able to hit the missing 8 damage you need after Counterbalance lands (assume you get 8ish damage in, and they 4 themselves from fetches). Really the issue seems to be whether or not they:

A) Have BEB post board to screw you over
B) Land a Goyf and race before you can draw the Fireblast/Rift Bolt.

Is Flame Javelin too slow (I imagine that's a yes)? If not, it's another card that bypasses Counterbalance completely without diluting your game plan.

kirdape3

08-08-2008, 11:44 AM

If you can support Flamebreak, you can certainly support Flame Javelin.

Volt

08-08-2008, 11:52 AM

Wallace

08-08-2008, 03:01 PM

14 Mountain

4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Street Wraith

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Spark Elemental
3 Mogg Fanatic

4 Price of Progress
4 Manamorphose

3 Fireblast

Simple, fast, brutal. Yes, it loses hardcore to Chalice or a quickly-resolved CounterTop. Face it, you lose to those anyway.

I never ever liked BaubleBurn...

...look @ your list and ask yourself: What am I doing against an opposing Tarmogoyf???

YawG

I'm not a fan because I have tested it and it sucks. Ask Nightmare what happens when you opponent goes turn1: Fetch, Bauble, Wraith, bolt you, pass, Opponent goes Island Go. Turn 2: Chain Lightning you, Bolt you pass the turn, opponent smiles and goes Tropical Island, 5/6 TARMOGOYF ON TURN 2 WITH NO CARDS IN THERE GRAVEYARD! (Caps and bold for effect) Oh and for good measure he dropped another one on turn 3.

This deck can win without all of the draw, look at the European meta for a while, burn was a DTB. That is all...

Sims

08-08-2008, 03:28 PM

Guys, why is everyone just accepting that you lose to Counterbalance? It seems to me that, should you fear that match so much, you should probably have some pretty solid anti-Counterbalance tech. As opposed to, say, 8 Baubles.

Because by that point you might as well take out the "bad" burn spells and add creatures and Goyfs and then.... well, you get the idea. You played the idea. I hate bauble-burn, btw. I don't like running all these cantrips that will just draw into more cantrips/slowtrips/lands. I'd rather run "bad" burn that allow me to do something constructive instead.

bruno_tiete

08-08-2008, 04:55 PM

I used to play burn and even created ripples in the meta around São Paulo. After a few good results, people started to pack playsets of Chills as automatic includes in their sideboard. This what not the issue, though.

Since the printing of Tarmogoyf and Countertop getting everywhere, the deck has faced real problems. While in the current Aggro-control/Control makes Every Price of Progress deadly, there are just to many issues with playing burn. You are not going to lose to Goyf because you cant race it. You are going to lose because you can rece it while playing around Daze, Spell Snare and Force of Will. If the can stall you for single turn, you are in murky ground already.

Counterbalance is almost as dumb as Chalice at 1. You have to make all sort of gimmicks to try to resolve a game winning Price of Progress. It gets impossible when you are facing Goyf.

I think you guys cutting on Mogg Fanatics are going the wrong way. Mogg is better when in the openning hand. It answers Lackey and BFB. It deals damage under standstill and Time walks a Goyf. Its just too good to cut.

Burn has fundamental turn 4. This means you can't always race goblins. Losing a couple turns to counters will put you into goyf range.

I recognize the hazard of running baubles. I guess I'd rather take that risk than fill my deck with bad spells like Incinerate*, Flamebreak, Browbeat, Flames of the Blood Hand, Flame Javelin, etc.

We need to get scientific about this. A good starting point would be to come up with two lists: one with baubles, and one without. Then someone would need to goldfish each deck, say 50 times, and calculate the average kill turn for each deck.

*Gawd, Incinerate sucks. Lightning Bolts are barely playable in Legacy anymore, outside of Burn. Why play an overpriced Lightning Bolt?

I did a reasonable amount of tests with baubles. Unfortuately, I have no saved data to retrieve now, but it was clear that the goldfish was slowed down by baubles. The main issues I recall are:

- Your deck will have a lower instant-to-sorcery ratio than regular burn, as most CMC1 burn is Sorcery, while CMC2 is Instant. This makes topdecked baubles Time Walk you;

- Your mulligan decisions get severely harder when you have a land and baubles in your opening seven, let alone baubles/SW and no lands. This will translate in you losing turns waiting for mountains more often than regular burn;

- You open yourself to stifle. In lack of better targets, they are trading 1 for 1 with you, spending a card that would otherwise be dead (ignoring Rift Bolt). Additionaly, baubles encourage you to run fetches. They cost life (which is not irrelevant against goblins and aggro control decks) and can be further stifled as well.

- You speed up Goyfs coming your way.

Summing up, while you pack more efficient 3-for-1 spells, you are trading your X-for-2 for uncertainty both regarding speed and damage dealing capability.

3-for-2 indeed suck, but I guess the are better than the other options availabe. This deck is supposed to be build on redundancy. The less randomness you put into it, the better it gets.

syssc9

08-08-2008, 05:08 PM

@ CorruptedAngel and bruno tiete
Here, Here! I concur! Well said! Thank you. The problem seems to be some of us have lost sight of what B-U-R-N means. It does not mean Baubles, or Spark Elementals. The so-called bad burn spells are better in a true Burn deck than any of this other junk. Sorry, but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. Now I’m not saying that Bauble-Burn is horrible, it’s just not burn. It opens the deck to removal and other nonsense that true Burn is immune to, just like creatures do. Get your own box, er, thread. I guess I am just an old, hard-line burn purist.

And what’s this about Incinerate being “bad?” I remember when I opened my first pack of Ice Age and screamed when I saw it for the first time. I could add another set of four cheap DD spells to my Bolts and Chains! At the time I had been working on my personal version of what would later be called a Sligh deck for my son. I am not completely blind to the new Meta either, but this is not a bad spell – not in a true Burn deck, at least. Not as good as some others, perhaps, but bad? Hardly.

(Old geezer stumps off, shaking head, harumping and talking to self...)

matamagos

08-14-2008, 06:08 AM

I think that baubleburn should priorize the best instants before the best sorceries. So incinarate would have his place in the deck.

Furthermore, if we play 8 baubles and maybe 4 street wraith and 4 manamorphose we are talking about 16 cards that would fill our graveyard very very fast, so that we will be able to achieve threshold and sacrifice barbarian's ring earlier.

Mishra's bauble also provides us free information about the CMC of the card that will hit us if our oponent has counterbalance in play. In addition to the possible scry effect that someone has mentioned.

And we may not ignore the info about our enemy's hand that provides both baubles.

Finally, playing baubles also provides us food for shrapnel blast and maybe offers us to include some spell with the storm hability.

kaasblokje

08-14-2008, 07:43 AM

Curby

08-14-2008, 11:40 AM

Sunday i play in a legacy event and i am playing burn
my list is:

17 mountain
2 barbarian ring's

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
2 shard volley
4 Price of progress
4 magma jet
4 Fireblast

3 spark elemental
4 keldon marauders

4 manamorphose

SB
2 flamebreak
3 pyroclasm
4 shattering spree
3 chalice of the void
3 tormod's crypt

so my questions are:

i have street wraith but should iI play them?
and can you give some tip for my SB?

Street Wraith is better than Manamorphose if you can afford the life loss, and I'm not a big fan of Spark Elemental. Aside from that, how will you use Chalice? At 1 and 2 will hurt you just as much, and you won't see enough mana for 3 counters. Will you be using it to stop Moxen, Lion's Eye Diamond, and the like? I'd think having some REBs to have at least the slightest chance of countering Counterbalance would be worth it.

I'd use more Flamebreaks over Pyroclasm as well. If you really need to kill a billion EtW tokens early, run Cave-In. The key is that you want to damage the enemy as well as critters, and the dangerous fliers e.g. Exalted Angel, Tombstalker, Sea Drake, etc. won't be killed by a Clasm anyway. You can search this thread for Pyroclasm for more discussion.

kaasblokje

08-15-2008, 11:43 AM

Wallace

08-15-2008, 11:47 AM

But i can play Streetwraith instead main?

Just read the last 3 or 4 pages, this is discussed heavily.

kicks_422

08-15-2008, 11:51 AM

I use chalice at 0 (mostly does the job vs Combo)

No. No it doesn't.

Aznopium

08-15-2008, 03:08 PM

I use chalice at 0 (mostly does the job vs Combo)
I can put REB in SB instede of pyroclasm,(or do you gave a better proposel fro my SB)
Spar elemental works most of the time and helps agains ichorid.
But i can play Streetwraith instead main?

at best, chalice belongs in the sb. to use it just for 0 in the MB is silly.
i rather draw business than draw a chalice.

Wallace

08-15-2008, 03:13 PM

at best, chalice belongs in the sb. to use it just for 0 in the MB is silly.
i rather draw business than draw a chalice.

No. No it doesn't.

Pltnmngl

08-19-2008, 08:27 PM

I've been contemplating building a burn deck for a long time, but I had troubles deciding how to go about it. I think I've decided that I'm going to attempt to "rawdog" it, meaning no fetches, cantrips, baubles, etc. Just Mountains, burn, and cards that answer the biggest threats to this deck. What's a reasonable amount of land for this?

Wallace

08-19-2008, 08:40 PM

Happy Gilmore

08-20-2008, 01:07 AM

One card you might consider as an effective anti-CB card is Vexing Shusher. Most importantly he will allow you to resolve the most powerful burn spell in your deck: PoP. Post board most decks will take out creature removal (although, playing thresh, I might leave in Swords for the life gain).

Also, against chalice, this card might just be better than Spree

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/shm/107.jpg

A burn deck I played against last week made my life playing Dragon Stompy a lot harder with this card.

Wallace

08-20-2008, 10:57 AM

@ Happy Gilmore

While Smash to Smithereens (StS) is really good against chalice I still think Spree is better. Spree allows you to not only blow up that CoTv but nail the Trinisphere, Chrome Mox or other artifact if playing against something other than DS. StS may find a home in some decks that can't support multiple red mana, for now Shattering Spree will stay in my build.

Clark Kant

08-20-2008, 11:41 AM

Smash the Smithreens is a fantastic SB card. I find myself siding it in many games that I would never side Shattering Spree in against. Most decks run 8-11 artifacts (stuff like Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Equipment etc). It's rarely worth it to take out burn spells to side in Shattering Spree. But StS is a fantastic tool here setting your opponent back a bit all while advancing the game plan.

It buys you an enormous amount of tempo, both burning your opponent and taking out a Dreadnought or Equipment or Top or Chrome Mox something.

That said, Shattering Spree is clearly more resilient you may wish to run both in the board in varying numbers.

Wallace

08-20-2008, 02:04 PM

That said, Shattering Spree is clearly more resilient you may wish to run both in the board in varying numbers.

Thats an idea, I don't know if the SB can support more slots for artifact removal, but it's worth a try. StS may also be very meta Dependant too, if you don't expect to see a lot of Chalice Aggro decks then StS may be the better choice.

NecroYawgmoth

08-31-2008, 06:50 PM

Yeah, you could do a split of this 2 cards, but seriously: How many Artifact hate is really needed?

Ok, you guys told me the list looks good and I should test it... I've done
For all whoe have forgotten the list:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Shard Volley

4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Magma Jet
3 Flamebraek
3 Manamorphose

3 Barbarian Ring
16 Mountain

This deck loses vs Astral Slide/Loxodon Hierarch^^

No, seriously...

I think 3 Shard Volleys are too much for the deck... you hate in to draw in multiples, and its sometimes just meh, cuz Fireblast is so much better, or you can't sac the land right now... (Did I mention counters?)

so I would say -1 Volley

...That leads us to the next part: Manamorphose

This card should thin the deck to draw better burnspells...BUT, the more lands you play, the more weaker gets Manamorphose, on the other side, more lands are better for Volley.

And you need to play 19 Lands to play with Shardvolleys imo.

Manamorphose is also a bad topdeck... After the first 3-4 turns, when you are in topdeck-mode, it really sucks to draw this... how often I drew a land, cuz of this card and must take 2 points manaburn. It's the same like cycling a Street Wraith. Don't missunderstood me, Manamorphose is damn good in the 2nd, 3rd turn, but only then, but after this turns its just a lucky card which says: You lose if you draw a land now, where a normal burnspell could sealed the win... another pro-argument should be that it helps to get Treshould...

So my thoughts were: I have one slot more so I could play the 4th Manamorphose, because no other cards come in mind except Incinerate.

But then I ask myself: Is Incinerate better then Manamorphose, because you don't have to gamble for a burnspell...

So I have 4 open slots which should be filled with Manamorphose or Incinerate...

Whats your knowledge/experience with Manamorphose?

YawG

Iranon

09-01-2008, 10:03 AM

Pretty much the same as for all filler...

if you can't think of useful metagame-specific cards or synergies that push Burn over the edge, you should probably play a more powerful deck.
I'd say the same also applies to Incinerate, but that's slightly more justifiable.

kensook

09-01-2008, 04:01 PM

Or you can play 4 Keldon Marauders.

jjjoness'

09-02-2008, 02:47 AM

Just to throw it in, there's some really interesting list, coming in 3rd at the German Nationals' Sidevent.
here we go (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19359)

I don't know if this actually belongs to the Burn thread, for the list is not traditional burn.

NecroYawgmoth

09-09-2008, 10:31 AM

Wallace

09-09-2008, 03:09 PM

...maybe it has just too expensive casting cost, but:

Lich's Mirror
5
Artifact Mythic Rare
If you would lose the game, instead shuffle your hand, your graveyard and all permanents you own into your library, then draw seven cards and your life total becomes 20.

YawG

You said it, way to expensive for burn, would be a fun choice at 3 or 4 cc. By the time you get to 5 mana the game should be over.

ebbitten

09-09-2008, 08:16 PM

that does look like a very interesting card.

RogueMTG

09-28-2008, 11:53 AM

My girlfriend just took 13th place with my take on Mono-Red burn at the Sept 27th tournament in Binghamton. Winning a Scrubland.

List:

4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Price of Progress
3x Flame Rift
4x Fireblast
2x Flamebreak
2x Earthquake
18x Mountain

No 4th Chain lightning 'cause I don't have one, and no SB(!) because we entered on a whim.

She had played the deck twice ever before entering. Only loses were in 3 games to Grindstone/Servant combo.

Seems like the meta was pretty unprepared for burn to the face, maybe it's time for a come back?

Poron

09-28-2008, 10:08 PM

ehi but if Shrapnel Blast on Isochron doesn't require the sacrifice of an artifact as cc the german's list is pretty awesome.

against Thresh we put a PoP on Scepter and we laugh to opponent, and if we run on Pithing Needle we can always sacrifice the Scepter to another Blast.

That deck seems pretty awesome.

heroicraptor

09-30-2008, 12:21 AM

What's the MU like against Ichorid?

NecroYawgmoth

09-30-2008, 02:54 AM

...should be good, if you play with Fanatics, otherwise I don't know...
I played only 1 game without Fanatics against it, and I won...

...but I don't know if Fanatic is "good enough" to play...(is needed)

so far

YawG

Dark_Cynic87

09-30-2008, 12:36 PM

Winning against is difficult. You can slow them down by keeping Narcs off the table, but that's pretty pointless as they go ichorid beats. I suppose you can race them, but their 3-point "Burn-spells" (Ichorid) are much more reliable then yours are. It's probably your draws vs. their dredges--whoever gets luckier. This is the case even IF you run and play and sac Fanatic, at least in my experience.

Also, what's the ruling on that whole Shrapnel Blast + I. Scepter??? That would be teh nutz...

Pce,

--DC

Zinch

09-30-2008, 12:51 PM

Also, what's the ruling on that whole Shrapnel Blast + I. Scepter??? That would be teh nutz...

Pce,

--DC

I'm sorry but with isochron scepter you must pay all additional costs...:cry:

Redlotus27

09-30-2008, 01:18 PM

The deck seems to always have extra artifacts laying around to blast! Ankhs, Factory workers, Great Furnace, and lastly the scepter itself. The deck goldfishes around turn 4 most games. I LOVE "Float 2, sac mountains Fireblast you-- Fork it!...Take 8!"

MPL

09-30-2008, 01:51 PM

NecroYawgmoth

09-30-2008, 06:20 PM

easy answer...

It can't be countered by counterbalance ^^

Poron

09-30-2008, 08:22 PM

I tried the ankh thing these days and I realized that ankh is cool just if we drop it at the first or second turn, later it's completly useless or almost.

so... i'd rather stay on conventional burn

kensook

10-01-2008, 12:00 AM

Gocho

10-01-2008, 03:27 AM

Could anyone explain why that german runs Flame Javelins? In my humble opinion, two more mana (Chain Lightning is not in the list) for only one damage isn't worth it and even if you are willing to pay it, Flames of the Blood Hand are superior because you should not burn creatures anyway.

Can't I see the wood for the trees?

Burning early Tarmogoyfs CAN give you some games if you don't get a 4 turn kill.
You can't try it if you play Flames and in turn 5-6 you are dead...

Bourgeoise

10-01-2008, 06:47 AM

Am I the only one who gets made fun of when playing burn at a tournament? I brought my burn deck last week to a local tournament and was made fun of by 2 opponents about how easy it is to operate and how inexpensive it is to build. The sad thing is that I lost to both of them... they both had some sort of life gain and I couldn't get sulfuric vortex into my hand or didnt have enough mana to cast it. Makes me sad =( I like this deck a lot!

You should play whatever you feel comfortable playing but understand that your opponents make a valid point. Burn is just a slow combo deck that is relatively inexpensive to build and most every choice you make while playing the deck should be intuitive, it doesn't take much time to decide to point some burn spells at your opponents dome. That being said, what kind of decks are at your local tournament? Read through this thread maybe someone has addressed what you can do about certain matchups. One of burns biggest weaknesses is that it takes so many slots to make the deck able to kill somebody in a reasonable amount of time that you can't really worry about running spells that answer your opponent's strategy.

If you really like the burn archetype I would suggest trying out goyf sligh since it runs many of the same burn spells but also gives you some little green men and probably a little more consistency and survivability than a traditional burn deck provides.