[Deck] Burn

[Curby]

The only other one I can think of is a first striker when I want to get an elemental thru!

Exactly what I'm talking about: you're going to use a perfectly good burn spell that could have gone straight to the dome to kill a blocker so that your burn spell on feet can get through. I'd rather remove the feet and send 6 to the dome directly. Sure, you can bring the Elemental back for up to 3 more damage, but you've already spent that 3 damage clearing a path for the Elemental the first time around.

I apologize if everyone else is getting sick of me harping on Elementals, but even proponents see cases in which they need support from other cards, and dependencies reduce consistency. If a third of the field is Dredge, then I can see the appeal, but I'd probably maindeck graveyard hate and/or use Mogg Fanatic, which can stick around pinging for 1 a turn while you wait for the best time to blow the Bridges.


How have they been for you? The idea of getting around COP:Red and Chill is very tempting!

Wasteland can be an issue, getting stuck on two B Rings in the opener can lead to a lot of self-hurt, and it slightly reduces the consistency of Fireblast. I wouldn't call it a staple like Lightning Bolts because you probably only want 2-3 and they only activate later in the game. That said, it's not difficult for us to get Thresh by the end of the game, and along with Volcanic Fallout they can help push damage through countermagic for the kill.

[kicks_422]

Why not maindeck all 4 Price of Progress? Are there any monocolored decks that will beat Burn with 4 dead cards in the MD?

[Koby]

Fish beats Burn pretty consistently.

[kicks_422]

Fish? As in merfolk Fish? They have burn (or anything with red, in general) as one of their worst match-ups. Or at least, that's what I remember from reading that thread before. Has that changed?

[FoulQ]

I think merfolk vs burn is about even, from my experiences.

When I was speaking of flame javelin, I was sort of thinking that the card is good because it can kill RWM, and with 4 in yankeedave's list you can sort of reliably kill RWM (well, at least more than the usual....shit game over).

[Koby]

Does anyone here actually playtest any of the decks you guys are discussing? Fish, as in Merfolk but not limited to it, is just as fast or faster than burn. The only spell you need worry about is the lethal one which gives you a lot of leeway in gaining momentum. In the meantime, you get lords out to pump your team and just attack attack attack. Standstill also doesn't help matters as they can just put it out with 1 guy out and come out ahead.

[Ozymandias]

The classic archetype diagram also works for this example. Aggro-control's best matchup is combo, because you stop the key spells and win before they can recover. Burn is a combo deck, or at least gets beaten like one, and Merfolk, with Daze, Cursecatcher, Force, and Standstill, is Aggro-Control.

[yankeedave]

Well, I have a couple of Merfolk lists in my meta and it does seem a 50/50 battle, as they either stomp you or vice versa. There are very few wars of attrition in this matchup, and if they have a lot of counters, you can be screwed.

As for Standstill, someone told me years ago that you should always just break the Standstill asap, as you are gonna give them the cards anyways, so do it early and keep to your own game plan. You have the cards to win, you just have to make your plan and stick to it with counter decks. Merfolk is not a matchup I enjoy, but I do think it is winnable in my experience. Vexing Shusher and REB out of the board makes it easier and

@kicks422 – I generally draw between 11 and 15 cards in a match. With several new players to our meta, the number of basics has been painfully high. If I draw 2 PoP against them, my gameplan is slowed by two full turns. I don’t mind drawing one against these decks, but 2 is just way too lethal. As my metagame progresses, I will be changing my deck accordingly.

@kirbydsl – I completely understand your points regarding the Elementals, but I am struggling to find a replacement that is satisfactory. I am already running 18 Bolt effects, Incinerate and the rest. Do you have any ideas for replacements for my 6 Elemental slots that are good damage and not utility?

[Curby]

I think I posted above that Manamorphose is still usable. In fact, it's mostly better than even Street Wraith now that we don't mana burn. The hypotheticals go something like this:

Early in the game, you get your second land: cast Manamorphose and use the mana to burn. You effectively Cantrip for free
Topdecking, you cast Manamorphose and use the mana to cast whatever burn you drew.
Topdecking, you cast Manamorphose and draw a land. That sucks, but you would have had to deal with that land and had a dead turn at some point anyway.
You're beyond the first turn and can't cast Manamorphose: you're pretty much dead anyway as you're stuck on one land.

I'm pretty sure no one would waste a counterspell on a Manamorphose, right? If so, Ethersworn Canonist is the worst enemy of Manamorphose. It also makes Magma Jet worse as it's effectively Scry 1 instead of Scry 2 when you see a Manamorphose.

I'm even idly considering adding Lightning Helix, Manamorphose and some fetch/dual action (I know it's silly but I'm intrigued: as we all know there's not enough ideal burn).

[snackfu]

Just watched a burn player take second in a tournament and win a Bayou playing with a full set of Hellspark Elementals maindeck. He lost in the final to Merfolk because he got stuck with two Ingot Chewers in hand (to take out Jittes). However, the Merfolk player did not see one in game three, nor did he need to. The Lords can quickly get out of hand without any help from Umezawa.

Depending on the metagame, I have swapped out and sideboarded the PoPs.

I checked previous pages and nowhere did I find consensus about what should go in the final 4-8 slots. In fact, this is exactly what we should be debating. Perhaps we should start with what is set in stone and work from there?

Here is what I see as the core of the deck:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Price of Progress (In a developed metagame, I have run 3 with the fourth sideboarded at times)
4 Magma Jet
4 Keldon Marauders

3-4 Flamebreak/Volcanic Fallout

4 Fireblast

What are the contenders for the final slots? I would say these would top the list:

Incinerate
Hellspark Elemental
Shard Volley
Flame Javelin
Sulfuric Vortex
Mogg Fanatic
Ball Lightning
Spark Elemental
Flame Rift

I think Sulfuric Vortex must appear somewhere between the maindeck and the sideboard. Flame Javelin also seems like the best answer to RWM.

My questions:
1. Is this the core of the deck, or am I missing something?
2. Are there any other relevant options for the final slots? I gathered these from what I have played, what I have seen played, and from the higher placing decklists on deckcheck.

[Tao]

As for Standstill, someone told me years ago that you should always just break the Standstill asap, as you are gonna give them the cards anyways, so do it early and keep to your own game plan.

That is not true. If you have plenty of lands and they don't put pressure on you then there is no need to break the Standstill early. It prevents them from casting spells too and allows you to draw out of your flood.

The "break Standstill asap" is a rule for Aggro decks that play against Landstill because they lose the late game anyway. Especially new players often refuse to break Standstill when for example they play Goblins vs. Landstill and they can Waste and Port the first Factories.

[AlterEgo]

If you ask me, the best answer to Rhox Monks (and lifegain in general) is Sulfuric Vortex (always 4x)... no need to waste FOUR precious points of direct damage on a 3/4 vanilla :wink:

[Mikeleroi]

Here is what I see as the core of the deck:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Price of Progress (In a developed metagame, I have run 3 with the fourth sideboarded at times)
4 Magma Jet
4 Keldon Marauders

3-4 Flamebreak/Volcanic Fallout

4 Fireblast


I am playing EXACTLY the same core as you, with 2 flamebreaks and 3 volcanic fallouts. + 19 lands + 4 incinerate

From the list you have proposed I would take off ball lightning and flame rift. Flame rift because 4 damage for me at sorcery speed isn´t good enough. Maybe if it was an instant could be a possibility. And ball lightning... don´t know why, I just don´t feel confortable playing them.

The other options could be:

Creatures: elementals and fanatic. Don´t like them, they are not assured damage.

Sulfuric vortex... don´t like neither, maybe because it is a permanent.

Instant spells... for me they are overpriced: incinerate, flame javelin and shard volley just dont have a good relationship mana/damage. I have tried these days also needle drop and manamorphose but... they need "something more" to take these slots.

[Antonius]

I was wondering, does burn generally run blood moon in board or does it not even bother because mana-disruption is not part of its game plan?

cause I think i might have punted my match against burn by boarding in ray of revelations instead of geddons today (I was playing exploration stax, btw)

[uanlayen]

no you dont need bloodmoon price of progress is just funnier and ruder.

[Curby]

@mikeleroi: wait, 3 damage for 1 mana isn't good enough? With 19+ lands you'll generally have enough to support 4 Fireblasts and 2 Volleys; I wouldn't recommend running 4 Volleys. Needle Drop is horrible as it can't do anything alone (during the inevitable topdeck mode). I do rather like Manamorphose though.

@Antonius: who's the beatdown (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3692)? If we can't be the aggro deck in the MU, we've already lost. If we can't kill them faster than they can disrupt us, we've already lost. To weaken our focus to try to be the control player is a mistake. Aiming too many spells at the creatures generally ends in a loss, because we're not control. We don't run cards like Ensnaring Bridge, because we're not control. We don't run cards like Wasteland and Blood Moon, because we're not control. (Though I guess "we" should actually be "they" as you were playing Stax. Blood Moon would have been a poor design choice for "them.")

Do you maindeck geddons or are they in the side (Stax usually runs Crucible so that would be weird). Geddons fuck up Burn pretty thoroughly. They can only afford to run cards like Fireblast and Shard Volley because of their relatively stable manabase. As they increase the number of 3-drops to increase resiliency against Chalice, to replace Flame Rift, and to increase the number of sweepers and Javelins (Rhox War Monk are a must-kill, and everyone sees some Merfolk, Elves, and/or Zoo nowadays), they normally keep the land count low. I would imagine that a Geddon destroying three Mountains should pretty much seal your victory, as you'll be granted plenty of turns to develop the lock as they desperately try to topdeck land. If you're lucky enough to draw 2 Geddons, you can even cast one after seeing their second land to slow them down to a crawl. Sure, Burn can be manaflooded, and a good player slow-playing land against you will add resilience, but the chances of them getting a land-heavy opener is probably slightly less than the chances of you opening with a 3-sphere, which would force them to overcommit right into your Geddon.

[Mikeleroi]

Well, I said that R+sacrifice a mountain for 3 damage is too much for me; but now I am trying with 2 Shard Volley and they are not so bad :) Still, I am running 2 incinerates that I don´t like.

For the discuss about Blood moon, as uanlayen said, Price of progress is funnier :D

[matamagos]

That is not true. If you have plenty of lands and they don't put pressure on you then there is no need to break the Standstill early. It prevents them from casting spells too and allows you to draw out of your flood.

The "break Standstill asap" is a rule for Aggro decks that play against Landstill because they lose the late game anyway. Especially new players often refuse to break Standstill when for example they play Goblins vs. Landstill and they can Waste and Port the first Factories.

That's true. I've played many times against landstill on the board and you should wait to refill your hand before breaking it. If the breaking point is very delayed, you will have 7 burn spells in hand, one of them probably a fireblast, and many of them with only 1 cmc. That means you can play A LOT of burn in only one turn. Would the control player have 7 counters in hand??? 7 counters that can be played in the same turn??? probably not

I think playing a landstill generally is not a good idea against burn

[Curby]

I thought Landstill decks still pretty regularly used Countertop, in which case countering a ton of 1-2drop burn spells is ridiculously easy.

[matamagos]

Yeah. But this is a completely different situation. If you have countertop on the board and some lives, do what you want with the landstill. You can order a whisky and put the card on the bottom of the glass. You are probably going to win anyway.

[mustanggt50conv]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

First, has anyone explored as to whether or not it would be advantageous for a burn player to always let the opponent play first; thus allowing you turn 1 card draw, which increases the probability of getting that last card you need (Fireblast) for a turn 3 kill?

I've gone over some scenarios with a core burn deck of 3 point damage spells with fireblast to finish and it turns out when you go first, by the end of turn 3 you've run out of cards and the opponent is still at 2 life; whereas if the opponent goes first, by the end of turn 3 you still have 1 card in hand (hopefully a fireblast) to cover the remaining 2 life of your opponent for the turn 3 kill.

Second, why doesn't anyone play Fireblast + Fork? I've been running burn for just over a year now and the combo has been clutch in many matches; especially in that the Fireblast + Fork combo allows you a turn 3 kill whether or not you play second on turn 1.

Any thoughts?

[Mikeleroi]

I have played with this deck some time, and haven´t seen many turn 3 kills... You need:
T1 -> Mana, bolt
T2 -> Mana, bolt, bolt
T3 -> Mana, bolt, bolt, bolt, Fireblast
-> 10 cards in your 3º turn, being on the draw and very lucky. Or, one less bolt and the player using a fetch.

If you draw first you can achieve a turn 3 kill; and if you play first you can stop his 3º turn attack with a volcanic fallout. Each play has its advantages.

About fork, I don´t like it because you would take its advantage only when combining with fireblast or price of progress. (I don´t want to fork a bolt or a volcanic fallout/flamebreak).

So, if you cast with PoP it will be turn 4º, and other player should be dead already: bolts on turns 1,2,3 and PoP on 4th. It is not necessary.

If you cast wit fireblast to achieve turn 3 kill you need:
T1-> Mana, bolt
T2-> Mana, bolt, bolt
T3-> Mana, bolt, fireblast, fork
-> 9 cards, very low probability.

So most of the time is a suboptimal card on the hand. (Well, that´s my opinion)

[Curby]

Yeah, don't run Fork. In general, people tend to remember matches in which a card was useful, not the matches when a card wasn't useful. If you topdeck a Fork you've just about given the opponent a Timewalk.

The 3-turn kill is a pleasant fantasy, and one that very rarely actually comes to pass (especially given the fact that the opponent will be disrupting your efforts). Speed is important, but make the deck so that it can reliably kill in 4-5 turns. Don't just concentrate on ways to get a 3-turn kill, as you'll reduce your overall consistency for slight gains in explosiveness. Compare Zoo and Goyf Sligh... Zoo's a bit slower but much more successful overall.

[Sevryn]

WWK burn:

Searing Blaze :r::r: Instant

Searing Blaze deals 1 damage to target player and 1 damage to target creature that player controls.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, Searing Blaze deals 3 damage to that player and 3 damage to that creature instead.


In such a creature-run format, this will almost always have a target turn 2 and let's us take out a critter while not neglecting the dome. Honestly, this looks like the best 2cc burn spell we could have reasonably asked for. It of course sucks against non-creature decks, but these are usually combo decks that we aren't going to race, or board control decks that will have 12+ dead cards against us.

[dal9ll]

But to be able to play it as an instant AND deal 3 to each target, you've got to have a land fall on your opponent's turn. We'll see about it tho. It may surprise me. Does this mean we have to start running fetchlands in this deck? Gone would be the days of Burn being a poor man's Legacy deck, haha!

I'd like to get some feedback on this deck, if I could:

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Hellspark Elemental/Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
4 Flamebreak
4 Magma Jet
2 Cursed Scroll

15 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Shivan Gorge

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Price of Progress
3 Sirocco
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Anarchy

[Sevryn]

But to be able to play it as an instant AND deal 3 to each target, you've got to have a land fall on your opponent's turn. We'll see about it tho. It may surprise me. Does this mean we have to start running fetchlands in this deck? Gone would be the days of Burn being a poor man's Legacy deck, haha!

I plan on sticking to zero fetchlands and just playing Searing Blaze as a sorcery. Two mana for 6 damage is sick, even if only 3 of it hits the opponent.


I'd like to get some feedback on this deck, if I could:

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Hellspark Elemental/Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
4 Flamebreak
4 Magma Jet
2 Cursed Scroll

15 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Shivan Gorge

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Price of Progress
3 Sirocco
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Anarchy

I'd go with Marauders over Hellspark, for the seemingly weird reason that Marauders can block.

Lifegain is the burn killer. Some number of Sulfuric Vortex is recommended, I would go with 4.

I'd drop Shivan Gorge for another mountain, because casting Flamebreak on turn 3 is often important. I also would up your land count to 19. I'm debating with my own deck whether 19 or 20 is right, but I'm fairly sure 18 is too low.

Flame Rift is a dangerous call if your meta has lots of agro.

I have not tested Cursed Scroll. If you like it, run it. If this was my deck, I would replace it with Price of Progress maindeck, and then have 2 more in the sideboard.

I run Shattering Spree in the place of Ingot Chewer. You can replicate to hit Chalice, but you can also invest more mana into it to wipe out Stax or Affinity, which I feel is worth it.

Basically, I told you the differences between your list and mine, so take all of this with a grain of salt. I would really like to run Flame Rift myself, but the self-damage is too much against decks like Zoo and Agro Elves. And Sulfuric Vortex will randomly win matches you would have lost to Jitte/Finks/Zuran Orb/etc.

[urdjur]

I don't think Searing Blaze will be a better solution to any problems than the ones we already have. As a top deck, it's almost as bad as Fork. We get inconsistency for some added creature removal that most often isn't needed since we can race aggro anyway.

For just one more mana, you get Flamebreak that does the same thing but better and without the landfall necessity. I could see this being a useful SB card against Zoo and tribal decks, but top decking it in a tight situation will still be a bitch. And running fetches to support it? DEFINETELY not worth it.

[Eksem]

How do people feel about reviving Ankh of Mishra? Or is it just too terrible a topdeck to consider?

I'm opposed to running creatures at all in a Burn-deck. An early Spark Elemental might be nice damage for it's cost, and Hellspark Elemental is nice card economy; but better card economy is making the opponents hand dead with useless removal. Mogg Fanatic was ok when it could get you an extra turn blocking and still get in that one point of damage, but now? It's worse than Shock, and you wouldn't run Shock, now would you?

Searing Blaze seems terrible in a deck that is trying to minimize the number of lands played.

[urdjur]

@Eksem: Ankh was tried before the new set of fetch lands and was then found lacking. No matter how much or little you build around it, you seem to end up with an inherently weaker burn deck with more dependencies. More fetches in the card pool makes it more attractive, but it still sucks mid-late game. As for creatures, I think Keldon Marauders is the only one that should be included at present.

I'm mostly active in the MTGS burn thread, where we've recently discussed the merits of Shard Volley. Those that run it usually only include 2 copies to not interefere with 4x Fireblast (and even so, 2 extra bolts go a long way), but we've recently found that you can run a full set if you simply cut a Fireblast copy. A full 20 3-for-1s is too good to pass up, even if it means running 3 fireblasts (this also reduces the risk of the troubling double fireblast of course). Running 7 spells that send at least 1 land to the grave also greatly helps with threshold for BRing. So recently, I've started to build burn decks with this 3/4 split and they run really smoothly. This is my present build:

18 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Shard Volley
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Volcanic Fallout

//Sideboard
2 Powder Keg
2 Shattering Spree
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Price of Progress

I'm very happy with the SB also. The first 10 cards are devoted to Stax (Keg/Spree/Disk) and CounterTop (Disk/REB/Needle), but of course they all have different uses too. Similarly, Pyrostatic Pillar can be combined with more narrow answers against combo (like adding Needle against Belcher, Relic against GY-based combos, REB against blue tutors etc.). This means you'll also have 4-6 relevant SB cards against most forms of combo.

So the SB is focused on ChaliceTrini, CounterTop and combo that can beat our clock. It largely ignores aggro decks, since the MD is already difficult for them to race. I do pack a vast arsenal of answers to Jitte however, and the variety in the SB is excellent against random shenanigans that aggro decks may pack in their sideboards (Burrenton Forge-Tender etc).

[matamagos]

This is an interesting list. However barbarian ring is not a mountain, and you can not feed fireblast and volleys with it. You have enough mountains (18), but you can only play one land each turn. So I don't know if in the final turn you will be able to play a barbarian ring or you will need only mountains to feed your many volleys and fireblasts.

[urdjur]

Ah, but you can feed Shard Volley with Barbarian Ring. And 18 Mountain is certainly enough to support 3 Fireblast. As a rule of thumb, it will work like this:

If you have BRing and only get 1-2 Shard Volleys or 1 Fireblast, you'll sac mountains so you can activate BRing and burn with it. In this scenario, BRing increases your chances of a smooth t4 goldfish.

If you have the "t3 win" hand, 1 of 3 lands can be BRing and 1 of the 4 bolts can be Shard Volley without any problem. In this case, BRing fuels the Shard Volley, leaving the 2 Mountain for the final Fireblast.

In short, playing Volley + the fact that BRing sacrifices to it means that you increase chances for t3 wins, while playing BRing + the fact that Volley helps build threshold for it increases chances for t4 wins.

[matamagos]

Ah, but you can feed Shard Volley with Barbarian Ring.

oh, I just misred the card!

[Mikeleroi]

Sorry for going a little offtopic, but I would like to discuss a deck that won a 10 person tournament (ok, it is the same as saying: almost nothing!). It's a burn splashing black for terminate/confidant/blightning.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32585

Mainboard:
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Incinerate
4 Shrapnel Blast
2 Fireblast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Chrome Mox
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Dark Confidant
4 Blightning
4 Terminate
4 Chain Lightning

Sideboard:
3 Blood Moon
3 Price of Progress
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

What do you think? Would you play it over normal burn? Ok, I think the performance of normal burn is better; but playing confidants and blightnings on burn deck is so funny. Problems I see: it may be funnier, but is not faster that normal burn, mabase is sooo weak, and in topdeck mode it works worse... Any opinion?

Just write this to revive a little the topic, because now the core of the deck is more or less always the same (there's no discussion), and worldwake doesn´t have any special card to mention.

[Curby]

Heh you haven't even convinced yourself, so it's a non-starter. If you're trying to have fun with a deck idea, then have at it. But if you want to have an effective burn deck, then play mono-red.

[Mikeleroi]

No, no, it wasn´t me who played the deck! I just saw it on deckcheck :P But it got my attention because of blightning, I always thought how to play this card but never found the spot/deck.

I have been thinking about the deck... considering other player doesn´t have FoW, any hand with chrome mox is pretty solid: Confidant on first turn or SDT with activation, and it allows t2 marauders + spark or blightning: 3 damage and 2 cards. Ok, they are not random, but always hurts. Still it is true, I think it kills on average on T4-T5 so playing monocolor is a better option.

[Sevryn]

Pros:
-potential card advantage from Bob
-Terminate can kill creatures that Lightning Bolt can't
-Shrapnel Blast is :1::r: for 5

Cons:
-Wasteland is a threat
-removal is a threat (kills Bob)
-colorscrew more often than with mono-red
-Chrome Mox is card disadvantage
-Terminate isn't burn

In my opinion, the blue splash is stronger than the black splash because it gives you access to card draw without being on a creature. Realize that every deck in the format can deal with creatures or is fast enough to ignore them. Bob will eat removal almost every time, whereas running blue for Brainstorm + fetchlands is a bit harder to fight than a 2/1 creature, and has the side benefit of getting you closer to Threshold for your Barbarian Rings. And I'm still not sure it is worth opening yourself up to Wasteland/Stifle shenanigans.

[urdjur]

There are several issues with that list. First off, if you want to play burn, you're better off with mono-red and a non-shrapnel blast list at that. Trying to fit shrapnel blast even after you have splashed is even greater folly - there are so many better things to pick from at that point.

If you DO splash, look to Goyf Sligh. It makes the deck more powerful at the cost of opening it up to Wasteland and Stifle. Is it worth it? I think that if you're gonna do that, you might as well go all the way and play Zoo instead.

Now, if one wanted to build a RB burn list, looking to Goyf Sligh first would be a good starting point. We don't get Tarmogoyf (doh!) but we do get Tombstalker, Blightning and Nyxathid instead. If we're looking at fitting Blightning, we should automatically look to Lightning Bolt and Hymn to Tourach (its components). After that, why not include those big black beaters to capitalize on your filled grave and discard?
Something like:

20 lands

4x Goblin Guide
4x Tombstalker
4x Nyxathid

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Blightning

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Magma Jet
4x Fireblast

+ Sideboard with lots of pin point discard against combo, counterbalance and such. I'm NOT saying this is a good list, but if one was looking to fit Blightning and splashing burn with black, this is the direction I'd recommend.

[3ktor]

BURN


4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Lightning Bolt

4 Chain Lightning

4 Lava Spike

4 Rift Bolt

4 Fireblast

3 Browbeat

3 Flamebreak

3 Magma Jet

3 Price of Progress

1 Fork

1 Cursed Scroll

1 Blackvice

1 Isochron Scepter

1 Ankh of Mishra

2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountains

[3ktor]

BURN


4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Lightning Bolt

4 Chain Lightning

4 Lava Spike

4 Rift Bolt

4 Fireblast

3 Browbeat

3 Flamebreak

3 Magma Jet

3 Price of Progress

1 Fork

1 Cursed Scroll

1 Blackvice

1 Isochron Scepter

1 Ankh of Mishra

2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountains

[umbowta]

BURN



1 Blackvice

If Black Vise were legal in Legacy you would want to play 4 of them. Also, please add some content other than just a decklist to your (double)post. We can't read your mind, and decklists are a dime a dozen.

[dal9ll]

Red/Black Sligh is a completely different deck from straight-up Red Burn and thus belongs in another thread. 'Nuff said.

I'm curious what seems to be the problem with the tried-and-true, more straightforward approach to Burn decks. Something more like:

4 Keldon Marauders
4 Hellspark Elemental

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast (Burn NEEDS to run 4 of these)
4 Magma Jet
4 Flamebreak/Firespout
3 Flame Rift
2 Cursed Scroll

17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Price of Progress
3 Shattering Spree
2 Anarchy
2 Sirocco

Scrolls and B. Rings for late-game damage, cards like Flame Rift and Fireblast to keep your clock as fast as possible, Hellspark is clearly interchangeable with cards like Goblin Guide, Mogg Fanatic, Slith Firewalker, Magus of the Scroll, etc.

[Curby]

Ugh, we're moving backwards again. In a burn thread, even. Who woulda thought?

Run Flame Rift only if Zoo doesn't exist in your meta. Who does that really apply to? Turning the game into a 16/16 or 12/12 race is generally fine for Burn, but not when it costs us 2 mana and a card, and not when opposing decks are getting ever-faster.

Suggesting 4 Fireblasts and zero Shard Volleys makes your argument really suspect. I've got a suspicion that you're used to doing something one way and nothing will convince you otherwise. Fine.

Cursed Scroll? This was discarded years ago as a Burn candidate. It's only a consideration in metas that don't include Pridemage.

I simply don't like Hellspark Elemental though I realize that's a purely subjective reaction against anything that doesn't guarantee damage. The other ideas are simply bad ones. MHO.

[Mikeleroi]

4 Keldon Marauders
4 Hellspark Elemental

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast (Burn NEEDS to run 4 of these)
4 Magma Jet
4 Flamebreak/Firespout
3 Flame Rift
2 Cursed Scroll

17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring


Where are the Price of Progress? They're the best card in the deck!! The problem with Burn is... there is not any way to innovate, as 55 cards more or less are already fixed.

19 lands
16 3 damage x R
4 Magma jet
4 Fireblast
4 Price of progress
4 Keldon marauders
4 Flamebreak / Volcanic Fallout

With this, you have 55 cards... the other 5, each one's decission.

About flame rift... if it was "instant" it would have a place, but I personally hate 2º turn wasting RR in 4 damages, sorcery speed, also to me.
And cursed scroll, you are going to take advantage of it on turn 4th as soon... by then, you should be waiting for the spark that will take the last 2 points.

[Clark Kant]

Has anyone tested Searing Blaze in the deck yet?

It really does seem very strong with all the creatures running around the meta lately. Perhaps in the sideboard if nothing else.

[ktkenshinx]

Has anyone tested Searing Blaze in the deck yet?

It really does seem very strong with all the creatures running around the meta lately. Perhaps in the sideboard if nothing else.

Searing Blaze is an excellent sideboard addition that drastically improves the challenging Zoo matchup. Especially in Burn builds that splash green for Krosan Grip and black for Bob/Terminate, the landfall trigger is quite reliable, which essentially turns the single card Searing Blaze into a double Lightning Bolt. It is particularly powerful against Goyf, a creature that sometimes must be burned away, to allow Marauders and Hellsparks to charge through. In this case, it is sometimes disadvantageous to use 2 burn spells to get rid of Goy. Searing Blaze essentially means you only "waste" one spell on the Goyf, because the Blaze will affect BOTH the player and the creature.

Regarding the maindeck, what considerations have been made regading the other "Direct damage" Creatures: Hell's Thunder and Ball Lightning, specifically? Hell's Thunder is particularly interesting, as its 4 toughness keeps it out of Lightning Bolt range, and the only cards that can feasibly block it are Birds (and who uses those). Unearth is especially useful in its circumventing of Daze/FoW. Ball Lightning consistently encounters problems owing to its low toughness and lack of evasion, and its vulnerability to counter magic. What are the thoughts on this?

-ktkenshinx-

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Regarding the maindeck, what considerations have been made regading the other "Direct damage" Creatures: Hell's Thunder and Ball Lightning, specifically? Hell's Thunder is particularly interesting, as its 4 toughness keeps it out of Lightning Bolt range, and the only cards that can feasibly block it are Birds (and who uses those). Unearth is especially useful in its circumventing of Daze/FoW. Ball Lightning consistently encounters problems owing to its low toughness and lack of evasion, and its vulnerability to counter magic. What are the thoughts on this?

-ktkenshinx-

They are both horrible. White or black based removal still hit Thunder, and that makes it unplayable. The risk and reward here is poor.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Sorry for the double post, but this is completely unrelated to my last post.

Ok so this deck sucks right? Yeah we hate to admit it, but this deck is crap. With that being said, why don't we try some splashes? Yeah yeah you lose some of your immunity to non basic hate. Who cares? Monored burn blows and there are at least 10 other decks someone should bring to a tournament instead. Granted splashing something may not fix anything, but it should be tried more than it has prior. I agree with Sevryn that the blue splash would probably be better than black and I think it at least merits an honest go. If that doesn't work we didn't lose much, because the deck is already destined for the trash heap.

[3ktor]

BURN

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Browbeat
3 Flamebreak
3 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
1 Fork
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Blackvice
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Ankh of Mishra
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountains


1 of each artifact is the best combination becouse makes a 4 artifact permanent dmg which some are for early game some for middle and some for late...some with 1 cost and some with 2..some with activated ability some passive..

1 Fork = MUST for a burn deck , its a finisher and its a controler ( and maybe 1 more in sb )

4 Mogg Fanatic = are all creatures that a pure burn deck needs.. otherwise try Sligh

3 Magma jet becouse they are for middle and late game, not for early + thay are to choose what you need next , not for dmg ( no way 4 )

3 Browbeat becouse thay are for middle+late game too and they are for drawing ( no way 4 )

3 price of progress becouse they are for middle+late game and they are for finishing ( no way 4 md , maybe 1 more in sb )

3 Flamebreak becouse they are for middle+late game and only to clean up the board vs decks like Merfolks/goblins/zoo + makes dmg to player (no way 4 , maybe 1 more in sb )

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
becouse with 1 mana make 3 dmg..

4 fireblast...becouse we are playing BURN and becouse runs over counterbalance ( NO WAY 3 OR LESS OMFG )

2 Barbarian Rings becouse...it runs over standstill and over counterbalance

17 mountains becouse...its pure red burn deck with 4 fireblast

SIDEBOARD:

here are the cards that needed , in what dose now..its a pov and matter of environmentend

tormod's crypt / Relic of Progenitus ( maybe 2/3 or 2/2 )
Pyroblast / red elemental blast ( maybe 2/3 or 2/2 )
4 Smash to Smithereens
Sulfuric Vortex / pirostatic pillar ( maybe 3 )
Pyroclasm / flamebreak / Cave-In / Volcanic Fallout ( maybe 3 )
Pithing needle ( maybe 3 )

You had already been reminded to follow the Site Rules. Warning issued. ~Nihil Credo

[3ktor]

i dont know why it posted again twice..sorry

*ps: those 4 artifacts are giving you the variety of gameplay and the variety to face either control decks ( black vise / ank ) either aggro ( scroll / scepter )

[YigSnakeDaddy]

I'm currently working on this deck here:

18 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

4 Keldon Marauders
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning


Sideboard:
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
4 Flamebreak
3 Shattering Spree
3 Smash to Smithereens

[3ktor]

you need something for graveyard in sideboard
tormod's crypt or Relic of Progenitus

[YigSnakeDaddy]

I've been modifying it a bit to support Shrapnel Blast a bit better, hence Mishra's Ankh and Factory. How does it look?


12 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Lava Spike
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Flamebreak
4 Fireblast

Sideboard:
3 Aura Barbs
4 Pyroblast
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Shattering Spree

[Mikeleroi]

I would´t change all these things (great furnace, factories and ankhs) only to include Shrapnel blast. Sure, 5 damage for 1R instant is amazing, but doesn´t worth it: almost ALL legacy decks include wasteland. Now, you have 8 targets ONLY to be able to play Shrapnel blast. And in addition, factories add 1, instead of R. An initial hand with mountain-factory+5spells sucks. Also, you have flamebreaks (RRR)

[(nameless one)]

I noticed that there were no X-spells being discussed as finishers. Would a couple Banefire help late game?

[Iranon]

Before Banefire becomes in any way interesting, you need 6 lands.
If you have 20 lands in a 60-card deck (high for Burn), you have an expected 6 lands after having drawn 18 cards, which corresponds to turn 10 or 11 (later if you scry away surplus lands with Magma Jet).

There are spells that help against running out of steam and are still applicable to your primary plan (killing by turn 4 with fire to the dome)... Pulse of the Forge for example.
The only x-spell I'd consider running is Rolling Earthquake and even that would need a strong metagame reason.

[(nameless one)]

Before Banefire becomes in any way interesting, you need 6 lands.
If you have 20 lands in a 60-card deck (high for Burn), you have an expected 6 lands after having drawn 18 cards, which corresponds to turn 10 or 11 (later if you scry away surplus lands with Magma Jet).

There are spells that help against running out of steam and are still applicable to your primary plan (killing by turn 4 with fire to the dome)... Pulse of the Forge for example.
The only x-spell I'd consider running is Rolling Earthquake and even that would need a strong metagame reason.

Cool, thanks for the clarification!

[DragoFireheart]

Here are some of the Rise of the Eldrazi cards that might be interesting to Burn players:


Flame Slash

It can't hit players so it would likely be a sideboard card, but the fact that it can blow up creatures with a 4-toughnesss body for one red and no other strings makes it seem like a great answer for annoying creatures like Rhox War Monk.


Goblin Arsonist

Could this replace or supplement Mogg Fanatic? You can't sac it at will, but it can do what fanatic used to be able to do: block and then deal damage to something before death.


Kiln Fiend

This guy is probably more sligh material than burn, but the fact that he can hit extremely hard if you cast a lot of instants/sorceries during your turn makes him something to consider.

[YrdBrd72803]

Howdy all. Long time reader, 1st time poster.
I play Legacy online on MTGO and got my set of PoPs last night to complete my burn deck. This is the list if anyones interested:

20 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast

My concern now is building a good sideboard. Burn finished 2nd in the 1st Legacy Premiere event on MTGO with this sideboard:

4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Smash to Smithereens

The rest of the top 8 consisted of Dredge (1st overall), 2 Merfolk (1 mono-blue, 1 splashing green and white for Goyf and Stoneforge Mystic respectively), Landstill, Reanimator, Death & Taxes, and ANT.
Looking at several analyses of the format online so far, Goblins is by far the most popular deck. Zoo, D&T, Merfolk, and forms of Bant (Counter/Top and Survival) are popular as well. ANT, Reanimator, and Dredge also show up.
Id really appreciate any input.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

My concern now is building a good sideboard. Burn finished 2nd in the 1st Legacy Premiere event on MTGO with this sideboard:

4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Smash to Smithereens

The rest of the top 8 consisted of Dredge (1st overall), 2 Merfolk (1 mono-blue, 1 splashing green and white for Goyf and Stoneforge Mystic respectively), Landstill, Reanimator, Death & Taxes, and ANT.
Looking at several analyses of the format online so far, Goblins is by far the most popular deck. Zoo, D&T, Merfolk, and forms of Bant (Counter/Top and Survival) are popular as well. ANT, Reanimator, and Dredge also show up.
Id really appreciate any input.

Do you know the main deck list of the burn deck that placed 2nd?

[Combo Winter]

I accully think that playing isocron scepter version is decent because it forces people to make pllays that are normally terrible vs burn I i dont think it effects the ablity to kill by turn 4 and you can largley play around the main reason not to play scepter in pridemage by not showing it early vs pridemage decks. While it may apper to slow the deck down but its played in the sweeper spot I don't think that its a much slower play than flamebreak or vortex vs a combo. And the scepter plan requires a set of counters that play into regular burns plan so you can side them out at leave your opponents with dead artifact hate.

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 price of progress
4 searingblaze
4 magma jet
4 fireblast
3 shard volley
4 scepter
4 lava spike
4 incinerate

3 barbarian ring
18 mountain

[YrdBrd72803]

Do you know the main deck list of the burn deck that placed 2nd?

Burn played by BootRus (2nd place) PE on 4/18/10

20 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
3 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Rift Bolt
2 Shard Volley

Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Smash to Smithereens

[Puzzle]

Ravenous Trap is in the side of many burn lists here as pretty much the only hate against graveyards ; I disagree with that choice.
Burn is very tempo-orientated.
As such, any mana that you spend on casting hate cards has a chance to delay your kill by a turn, which can be the difference between winning and losing.
In burn, Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt and Faerie Macabre should be the only graveyard-hate considerations.

[Glorfindel]

Ehm ... Ravenous Trap costs just as much mana as Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void. I.e. zero mana. It still costs a card, though, but other hate cards do as well.

[Puzzle]

Ehm ... Ravenous Trap costs just as much mana as Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void. I.e. zero mana. It still costs a card, though, but other hate cards do as well.I don't know how but I got stuck in my mind that it cost 1. Nevermind what I said then.

[YrdBrd72803]

So its pretty much agreed upon that approximately 4 slots should go to graveyard hate and they should cost 0 mana. That includes Ravenous Trap, Faerie Macabre, Leyline of the Void, and Tormods Crypt. Of these, I think Im going to count Leyline out. Its versatile, being good against ANY graveyard based deck, but we have no way to cast it and have to hope its drawn in the opening 7 or mull to it. Thats a little too inconsistent for my taste. Ravenous Trap is really only good against Dredge. I dont think Reanimator is ususally going to give you an opportunity to alternate cast Trap and if they do, they are packing FoW and Daze to protect themselves. But it doesnt have to be in the opener like Leyline and you can sit on it provided it doesnt get stripped with discard. If Reanimator has no precense, this is probably the best choice since Dredge is the graveyard based deck you really have to worry about racing. Online, Dredge and Reanimator show up in about the same frequency. So Im pretty much left with Crypt and the fae. We all know what Crypt does. We all know the weaknesses of Crypt. I think Im going to begin with the fae as my choice. Its useful against Dredge and Reanimator allowing you to pick off the most relevant cards and it cant be countered.
I see lots of Bant online (Counter-Top and Survival builds) so Im pretty sure I want 4 Sulfuric Vortex in the board as well.
My starting sideboard then:

4 Faerie Macabre
4 Sulfuric Vortex (also gives me something to swap with PoP against decks packing all or mostly basics)

Does anyone have any experience against Storm combo? The list from the PE i posted above played Mindbreak Trap out of the board. Is it enough? Sure, if you have if and they dont have a counter for it, you stop them from going off. But you have to have it in hand when they go off and its only 4 cards. The odds arent all that good. Does Pyrostatic Pillar work better since its not only hate for their combo but it actively lowers their life total?

[Sevryn]

I run 3 Sulfuric Vortex maindeck with the fourth in the board. Even if healing isn't relevant, 2 damage every upkeep after Vortex resolves is. The fact that it also proactively fights healing - aka the mechanic that if they use enough you will not be able to win the game ever. A resolved Rhox War Monk, for example, has to be dealt with immediately or the 3 life a turn becomes insurmountable. Vortex answers this as well as other random recurring life gain (e.g. jitte, finks, thopter-sword).

What do people think of Needle Drop? Paired with a bolt, Needle Drop is 2 cards for 4 damage and a card back. 2 mana for 4 damage is pretty reasonable, I mean, people have run Flame Rift. That's the same thing as needle drop except you take 4 damage to. Needle Drop is better than Incinerate in most cases.

[YrdBrd72803]

What do people think of Needle Drop? Paired with a bolt, Needle Drop is 2 cards for 4 damage and a card back. 2 mana for 4 damage is pretty reasonable, I mean, people have run Flame Rift. That's the same thing as needle drop except you take 4 damage to. Needle Drop is better than Incinerate in most cases.I play Needle Drop in my pauper (all commons format) burn deck because its the only card that gives you any kind of draw/library manipulation. In Legacy where you have access to Magma Jet, play Magma Jet.

[The Wolf]

I was wondering if anyone had considered Lust for War as a sideboard card. This card seems win-win for burn decks. If your opponent wants to be attacking you, they will take at least 3 damage from this card before the game is over. If they want to be blocking, this card clears the way for your haste guys and deals them damage on top of it. It even deals the damage to them in their attack step before you get hit. This might be too cute, but it seems worth exploring.

Text:
Lust for War 2R
Enchant creature
Whenever enchanted creature becomes tapped, Lust for War deals 3 damage to that creature's controller.
Enchanted creature attacks each turn if able.

[slylie]

So its pretty much agreed upon that approximately 4 slots should go to graveyard hate and they should cost 0 mana. That includes Ravenous Trap, Faerie Macabre, Leyline of the Void, and Tormods Crypt. Of these, I think Im going to count Leyline out. Its versatile, being good against ANY graveyard based deck, but we have no way to cast it and have to hope its drawn in the opening 7 or mull to it. Thats a little too inconsistent for my taste. Ravenous Trap is really only good against Dredge. I dont think Reanimator is ususally going to give you an opportunity to alternate cast Trap and if they do, they are packing FoW and Daze to protect themselves. But it doesnt have to be in the opener like Leyline and you can sit on it provided it doesnt get stripped with discard. If Reanimator has no precense, this is probably the best choice since Dredge is the graveyard based deck you really have to worry about racing. Online, Dredge and Reanimator show up in about the same frequency. So Im pretty much left with Crypt and the fae. We all know what Crypt does. We all know the weaknesses of Crypt. I think Im going to begin with the fae as my choice. Its useful against Dredge and Reanimator allowing you to pick off the most relevant cards and it cant be countered.
I see lots of Bant online (Counter-Top and Survival builds) so Im pretty sure I want 4 Sulfuric Vortex in the board as well.
My starting sideboard then:

4 Faerie Macabre
4 Sulfuric Vortex (also gives me something to swap with PoP against decks packing all or mostly basics)

Does anyone have any experience against Storm combo? The list from the PE i posted above played Mindbreak Trap out of the board. Is it enough? Sure, if you have if and they dont have a counter for it, you stop them from going off. But you have to have it in hand when they go off and its only 4 cards. The odds arent all that good. Does Pyrostatic Pillar work better since its not only hate for their combo but it actively lowers their life total?

Mindbreak Trap seems ok vs ANT but a good player suspecting it can easily play around it, as they normally pack 2-6 discard spells or can just play the artifact mana one turn, pass and then cast ad nauseam the next, drawing into duress, ect ripping up your hand then tendrils for the win.

Pyrostatic pillar even at 2 mana could be a bit slow, duressed out of your hand before you can even cast it, ect.

If you want a card that you can 'set and forget' I would say Chalice of the Void. Just drop it for zero and they will have a hard time going off without answering it, while you burn their face as they dig for an answer or try to go off with rituals alone.

I agree Ravenous trap is too narrow as its good against dredge, but its going to be hard to 'cast' vs reanimator unless they careful study/reanimate same turn.. I've watched many reanimator players online and the play is usually end of your turn, entomb, untap, reanimate. Which gives you no window unless they also cracked a sacland in the same turn.

So, In my opinion going 2x relic and 2x crypt (4x crypt is much easier to play but making pithing needle and echoing truth worse if thats what they are brining in against your hate) would be best.

[YrdBrd72803]

Im not sure about this, but Ive seen some folks talk about using Faerie Macabres ability as an instant. Youre not casting it and the card doesnt give any specific requirements for when you can use its ability. Anyone know how that works?
Im wondering if packing sideboard cards is even worth it against ANT. Trap is great if you have multiples or they arent expecting it. But as slylie said, theyre usually packing discard and some counterspell protection. I think if I end up running any ANT hate, it wold be Pillar since that can really limit the effectiveness of the draw engine.
In my list, Im packing 4 Searing Blaze main because online, I usually have plenty of targets. Do yall think running a sweeper (Flamebreak or Volcanic Fallout) in addition in the board is worth it/necessary?

[YrdBrd72803]

This deck went 4-0 in the Legacy Daily event on 5/7.

19 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Volcanic Fallout

Sideboard
2 Anarchy
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Volcanic Fallout

[mustanggt50conv]

Here are some of the Rise of the Eldrazi cards that might be interesting to Burn players:

Flame Slash

It can't hit players so it would likely be a sideboard card, but the fact that it can blow up creatures with a 4-toughnesss body for one red and no other strings makes it seem like a great answer for annoying creatures like Rhox War Monk.



If you're having problems with Rhox War Monk, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast work even better than Flame Slash as they are both instant speed will stop a pumped up RWM.

[YrdBrd72803]

Thoughts? I cant decide whether I want 4 Smash or 4 Fae. Im thinking Smash because there are a bunch of really annoying/juicy targets i.e. Aether Vial, Jitte, both Swords, and Factory that see a good bit of play. Against Dredge, I have 8 maindeck creatures that put themselves into the graveyard and after board, I would also have the 3 Fae and Flamebreaks to combat their engine. Beating Reanimator is going to be about lucksacking into gy hate anyway, so I dont think Im gonna worry too much about it. Same with Storm, unless they have a slow hand and you can drop a Pillar or theyre dumb and dont strip your Mindbreak Trap before going off, you lose.

20 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast

4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Flamebreak
4 Sulfuric Vortex

[urdjur]

The Burn thread at MTGS (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241878) just got a face lift: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241878

Comments and suggestions for improvement are appreciated.

[FoulQ]

Damn dude, you put a lot of work in that primer. It looks really nice.

Too bad it's a burn primer.

[DragoFireheart]

Damn dude, you put a lot of work in that primer. It looks really nice.

Too bad it's a burn primer.


So putting him down because it's a "burn primer" is your way of showing appreciation? What the fuck dude.

[Tzunamii777]

The Burn thread at MTGS (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241878) just got a face lift: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241878

Comments and suggestions for improvement are appreciated.

Great primer urdjur!
Burn was one of my 1st back in the day, & I've always kept it up to date and streamlined.
There's nothing like out-playing someone who thinks burn is beneath them.

[paeng4983]

what's the difference between a burn deck from a sligh deck?
can anyone enlighten me on this?
thanks

[paeng4983]

what's the difference between a burn deck from a sligh deck?
can anyone enlighten me on this?
thanks

[Koby]

Here's why I cannot take MTGS seriously:

"Nevinyrral's Disk: The best way for mono red to handle problematic enchantments like Counterbalance and Sphere of Law. Simultaneously hitting threats, and also working against artifact locks makes it very versatile. Running so few non-land permanents yourself puts you in a good position to abuse it."

No burn deck has used Disk since 1997 once Fireblast was printed.

[Azel Orfat]

what's the difference between a burn deck from a sligh deck?
can anyone enlighten me on this?
thanks

You had it in the first post :tongue::

Originally Posted by GodzillA
This was said at the beginning of the last Burn thread and will be reiterated in this one because it is important. This thread is for discussing Burn. It is not for the discussion of its cousins, RDW and Sligh. While similar, these two decks are idealogically different from Burn, in that one of Burn's core tenets is to avoid the use of any nonland permanents as a way of making many of the opponent's cards dead, hence providing virtual card advantage. This strategy is not inherent in Sligh or RDW, which tend to have a roughly equal balance of nonland permanents and burn spells. Therefore, in order to keep this discussion on track, do not post RDW or Sligh threads here. If you wish to discuss those archetypes, please start seperate threads for them. - Zilla

Then Burn shoudn’t run creatures that don’t ensure damage (at least IMO). Cards like Lava Spike and sweepers (Flamebreak/Volcanic Fallout) are common in Burn but not necessarily in Sligh.

[urdjur]

Here's why I cannot take MTGS seriously:

"Nevinyrral's Disk: The best way for mono red to handle problematic enchantments like Counterbalance and Sphere of Law. Simultaneously hitting threats, and also working against artifact locks makes it very versatile. Running so few non-land permanents yourself puts you in a good position to abuse it."

No burn deck has used Disk since 1997 once Fireblast was printed.

And this is why I prefer MTGS - not quite as many posers trying to earn net cred by posting aggressive, non-constructive critique.

First off, whether burn decks in practice do or don't use Disk in their SB doesn't affect facts - it's still one of the best answers out there to Counterbalance and other problematic enchantments. If most burn deck builders don't realize that, so be it - judging from deckcheck, the average burn deck builder is pretty unskilled. However, if you do go on deckcheck, you will find a few burn lists with Disk in their SBs. Disk is very economical in terms of SB space, handling many "fringe" problems like Sphere of Law where you'd otherwise need dedicated hate like Anarchy, while also being at least on par with Vexing Shusher when it comes to handling more common locks like CounterTop and Chalice/Trini decks. Of course, if you'd deigned to follow the previous burn thread on MTGS, you'd have known this already.

Also, what does Fireblast have to do with it? You Fireblast when its resolution results in a win. If you need to board in Disk, you probably don't expect to be able to just bolt and fireblast yourself to the win, so you'll of course hold back Fireblast and not destroy your mana base before you can actually win by doing so. This makes your LD finishers a non-issue with Disk. Furthermore, against Stax, you'll want to board out Shard Volley and Fireblast anyway since Chalice and Trinisphere + their LD make them bad.

If you have well reasoned counter arguments to why Disk isn't the best option for burn in the present meta, I'm all ears. I'm always interested in solid suggestions for improvement. Right now though, I don't think there's a card that can replace the functionality of Disk in a 15 card SB.

[Pltnmngl]

The Burn thread at MTGS (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241878) just got a face lift: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=241878

Comments and suggestions for improvement are appreciated.

Good job. However, I'm still not convinced by Shard Volley.

[menace13]

And this is why I prefer MTGS - not quite as many posers trying to earn net cred by posting aggressive, non-constructive critique.

First off, whether burn decks in practice do or don't use Disk in their SB doesn't affect facts - it's still one of the best answers out there to Counterbalance and other problematic enchantments. If most burn deck builders don't realize that, so be it - judging from deckcheck, the average burn deck builder is pretty unskilled. However, if you do go on deckcheck, you will find a few burn lists with Disk in their SBs. Disk is very economical in terms of SB space, handling many "fringe" problems like Sphere of Law where you'd otherwise need dedicated hate like Anarchy, while also being at least on par with Vexing Shusher when it comes to handling more common locks like CounterTop and Chalice/Trini decks. Of course, if you'd deigned to follow the previous burn thread on MTGS, you'd have known this already.

Also, what does Fireblast have to do with it? You Fireblast when its resolution results in a win. If you need to board in Disk, you probably don't expect to be able to just bolt and fireblast yourself to the win, so you'll of course hold back Fireblast and not destroy your mana base before you can actually win by doing so. This makes your LD finishers a non-issue with Disk. Furthermore, against Stax, you'll want to board out Shard Volley and Fireblast anyway since Chalice and Trinisphere + their LD make them bad.

If you have well reasoned counter arguments to why Disk isn't the best option for burn in the present meta, I'm all ears. I'm always interested in solid suggestions for improvement. Right now though, I don't think there's a card that can replace the functionality of Disk in a 15 card SB.

I just checked Deckcheck for all lists of decks with Disk in sb,out the mere 2 pages of lists there were tons of ITF and Landstill, 1 Red Death and 1 Zoo, but only 1 burn deck from .....2007. I have no argument as to why it is not played in burn more widely. I do have reason to think in light of evidence and lack there of aside the irrefutable " They are all bad builders" that it is not showing up in burn because the pilots didn't like it.

You can also feel free to show winning lists of Burn featuring Disk in their sb's(i was too lazy to search past deckcheck). Disk is a great card and not saying it will not answer Cbalance and Staxx if allowed to untap, however it is mana intensive and the usual-mono black aside(discard,rituals)- use of it is in decks with draw and late game superiority. Burn has no way outside of Magma Jets and Browbeats to draw/manipulate land drops every turn for 4 straight turns and resolving it vs Daze/Peirce/FoW adds at least 1 more turn for Shusher or red Blasts. Without disruption or hand knowledge protecting the disk is near impossible.
:eyebrow:

[Puzzle]

And this is why I prefer MTGS - not quite as many posers trying to earn net cred by posting aggressive, non-constructive critique.

First off, whether burn decks in practice do or don't use Disk in their SB doesn't affect facts - it's still one of the best answers out there to Counterbalance and other problematic enchantments. If most burn deck builders don't realize that, so be it - judging from deckcheck, the average burn deck builder is pretty unskilled. However, if you do go on deckcheck, you will find a few burn lists with Disk in their SBs. Disk is very economical in terms of SB space, handling many "fringe" problems like Sphere of Law where you'd otherwise need dedicated hate like Anarchy, while also being at least on par with Vexing Shusher when it comes to handling more common locks like CounterTop and Chalice/Trini decks. Of course, if you'd deigned to follow the previous burn thread on MTGS, you'd have known this already.

Also, what does Fireblast have to do with it? You Fireblast when its resolution results in a win. If you need to board in Disk, you probably don't expect to be able to just bolt and fireblast yourself to the win, so you'll of course hold back Fireblast and not destroy your mana base before you can actually win by doing so. This makes your LD finishers a non-issue with Disk. Furthermore, against Stax, you'll want to board out Shard Volley and Fireblast anyway since Chalice and Trinisphere + their LD make them bad.

If you have well reasoned counter arguments to why Disk isn't the best option for burn in the present meta, I'm all ears. I'm always interested in solid suggestions for improvement. Right now though, I don't think there's a card that can replace the functionality of Disk in a 15 card SB.His tone is aggressive and some comments are unfair but you need to thicken your skin if you want to post here, particularly by linking to other sites.

Regarding his argument, there is indeed one : Burn has never looked at reaching 4 lands ever again, let alone 4 lands + 1 untap, since Fireblast.
If the game lasts that long, the opponent will already be well in control before then and Disk is very unlikely to reverse the situation, even if it's not discarded, countered, stifled or destroyed.
Before you reach these 4 lands, having it in hand means having 1 less "damage" card and hence quite possibly giving the opponent the one more turn he needs to win / lock you out.

[Vacrix]

And this is why I prefer MTGS - not quite as many posers trying to earn net cred by posting aggressive, non-constructive critique.

First off, whether burn decks in practice do or don't use Disk in their SB doesn't affect facts - it's still one of the best answers out there to Counterbalance and other problematic enchantments. If most burn deck builders don't realize that, so be it - judging from deckcheck, the average burn deck builder is pretty unskilled. However, if you do go on deckcheck, you will find a few burn lists with Disk in their SBs. Disk is very economical in terms of SB space, handling many "fringe" problems like Sphere of Law where you'd otherwise need dedicated hate like Anarchy, while also being at least on par with Vexing Shusher when it comes to handling more common locks like CounterTop and Chalice/Trini decks. Of course, if you'd deigned to follow the previous burn thread on MTGS, you'd have known this already.

Also, what does Fireblast have to do with it? You Fireblast when its resolution results in a win. If you need to board in Disk, you probably don't expect to be able to just bolt and fireblast yourself to the win, so you'll of course hold back Fireblast and not destroy your mana base before you can actually win by doing so. This makes your LD finishers a non-issue with Disk. Furthermore, against Stax, you'll want to board out Shard Volley and Fireblast anyway since Chalice and Trinisphere + their LD make them bad.

If you have well reasoned counter arguments to why Disk isn't the best option for burn in the present meta, I'm all ears. I'm always interested in solid suggestions for improvement. Right now though, I don't think there's a card that can replace the functionality of Disk in a 15 card SB.
A green splash w/ Taiga for Krosan Grip looks stronger. Its uncounterable. Sure Disk gets past CB because they don't play anything at 4. Good luck getting to 4 lands to cast it without the opponent drawing a Daze, FoW or Spell Pierce.

I fervently disagree with the concept that "its bad because nobody plays it". Cards get discovered and rediscovered all the time.
I agree though, his argument was not constructive and could have been made in a much more effective way.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Powder Keg is the closest thing to Disk you'll be running, bud.

[pocari79]

I took burn to a 24 man tournament last weekend and used this list:

18 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain lightning
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Shard Valley

3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders

3 Sulfuric Vortex

Sideboard
3 Powder Keg
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Price of Progress

This is pretty much Urdjur's burn list from his primer at MTGS except I didn't play Shivan Gorge and I couldn't find 3 Faerie Macabre for the sideboard.

Round 1 - ANT (0-2)

Game 1 - Burned him to around 13 by turn 2 and he went off.
Game 2 - Played a turn 2 REB on a Mystical tutor and next turn he still went off. *sigh*

Round 2 - MUC (2-0)

Game 1 - I kept a horrid hand that had a price of progress and all he had was islands. After around 10 turns, I drew enough burn to barely survive a morphling and meloku from killing me next turn
Game 2 - He couldn't draw any counters and I drew my disks, REBs and burn spells and was able to finish him off after disking away propaganda and then unearthing the hellspark elemental for the win.

Round 3 - Slivers (2-0)

He was playing what looked like 5C slivers with vivid lands. *shudder*
Game 1 - Come into play lands are too slow and I burn him to death around turn 5.
Game 2 - Repeat

Round 4 - Counterslivers (2-0)

He wasn't playing with vivid lands but a lot of basics. Not sure if he had any dual or pain lands. and never saw a FoW either
Game 1 - Managed to kill him the turn he was going to kill me around turn 6.
Game 2 - He was off to a slow start and didn't have a lot of threats. He was at 11 and I ended up killing him in one massive turn. Chain lightning, price for 2, fireblast, activate barbarian ring.

Cut to Top 8 (yeah weird. i thought it was cut to top 4 but oh well)

Top 8 - ANT (0-2)

A different ANT player than the one i faced in round 1 but it was still ugly
Game 1 - I burn him to 11 after turn 2 and then on his turn 2 he went off.
Game 2 - I burned him to 7 after turn 3 and he's forced to ad naseum and flipped 2 LEDs off the first 3 cards of his library and then went off. *sigh*

I loved playing the deck. Every round ended really fast and I was able to scout around and take a break. Also, I only had to mull once and I felt the deck was really consistent. Loved the hellspark elementals as they were able to push through for additional damage. I found that I sided out the Keldon Marauders out a lot though as they were just way too slow although I really didn't face any creature decks so I guess they'd be good for blockers if you really, really needed it.

Does anyone have any sort of sideboard plans to go against ANT? The only thing I could think of is REB to counter the ponders/mysticals and powder keg for 0 to make sure they can't sac LED in response to casting infernal tutor but that seems like a really weak option. Or is this matchup just an auto-loss for burn?

Again, thanks Urdjur for making that amazing primer that convinced me to play hellspark elemental.

[DuxDucis]

Chalice of the Void for zero could slow down their artifact mana. I would think you would still face an uphill battle.

[menace13]

Chalice,Null Rod,Mindbreak and Pyrostatic Pillar are probably the only things you can do vs Combo in Burn aside from playing Trinisphere/Thorn and go Keldon/Hellspark Mishra? beats.

[bigbear102]

So I took a burn list to this past Saturday's Lotus moxen dual event in syracuse and went 5-1-1 taking 9th. Bad tiebreakers ftl.

3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Taiga
11x Mountain

4x Lightning bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
3x Incinerate
4x Magma Jet
4x Fireblast
3x Flamebreak
4x Price of Progress

4x Goblin Guide
4x Hellspark Elemental

SB
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Searing Blaze
2x Krosan Grip
2x Volcanic Fallout
3x Faerie Macabre

The deck performed very well all day long. I did mulligan a few times more than I would have liked, and would probably up the count to 19 land dropping a flamebreak.

The reliance on duals in several top decks in the format has made Price an indispensabe 4of right now. I won several matches due to PoP + Fireblast on turn 3-4.

Goblin Guide is an absolute wrecking ball and allows you to keep 1 land hands that you might not normally gamble on.

Hellspark is better than i thought. I never really realized he's uncounterable out of the grave. Also, 3 players brought in grave hate because of him, which is awesome cuz I am ecstatic about watching them waste a card on something that ALREADY did 3 damage to them. It was great, lol.

I have seen several lists lately without Magma Jet. I cannot understand this at all. It smooths out iffy hands and helps keep mana flood/drought from occurring often. I highly endorse the use of magma Jet and would love to hear a reason why it is not played more.

[menace13]

Goblin Guide is teh business.... Even if you draw all 4 Magma Jets and always found land to scry would not make Guide bad. It would just make you fortunate. Most decks have a land to spell ratio of 1 land per 2 spells, those are good odds. Haste 2/2 that pushes your damage output to 4 by turn 2 for 1 mana on the play. I'm pretty sure only Zoo could play something that is bigger at 1cc on turn 1 and only Lynx+fetch would equal that by turn 2.

@bear- I like the Searing Blaze and K Grip techy.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

So I took a burn list to this past Saturday's Lotus moxen dual event in syracuse and went 5-1-1 taking 9th. Bad tiebreakers ftl.

3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Taiga
11x Mountain

4x Lightning bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
3x Incinerate
4x Magma Jet
4x Fireblast
3x Flamebreak
4x Price of Progress

4x Goblin Guide
4x Hellspark Elemental

SB
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Searing Blaze
2x Krosan Grip
2x Volcanic Fallout
3x Faerie Macabre

The deck performed very well all day long. I did mulligan a few times more than I would have liked, and would probably up the count to 19 land dropping a flamebreak.

The reliance on duals in several top decks in the format has made Price an indispensabe 4of right now. I won several matches due to PoP + Fireblast on turn 3-4.

Goblin Guide is an absolute wrecking ball and allows you to keep 1 land hands that you might not normally gamble on.

Hellspark is better than i thought. I never really realized he's uncounterable out of the grave. Also, 3 players brought in grave hate because of him, which is awesome cuz I am ecstatic about watching them waste a card on something that ALREADY did 3 damage to them. It was great, lol.

I have seen several lists lately without Magma Jet. I cannot understand this at all. It smooths out iffy hands and helps keep mana flood/drought from occurring often. I highly endorse the use of magma Jet and would love to hear a reason why it is not played more.

Wow, you just revolutionized burn. It's funny, I played against a type 2 RDW deck, and it was crazy how that deck was almost as fast as Legacy Burn! The card that made this happen, was none other than Goblin Guide. That card is a monster, and I sometimes would actually have to burn it out. Although, what I especially like in your list is the Taiga so you can play the Krosan Grip in the board. Pure win.

Is Mindbreak trap even worth it? It seems hit or miss to me against ANT.

[paeng4983]

hello! burn is my next project deck.
and here's the list that i used last local legacy here in the philippines were i ended 1-4

16 mountain
4 great furnace

4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
1 shard volley
3 price of progress
3 flame javaline
3 fireblast
3 browbeat
3 shrapnel blast

4 hellspark elemental
2 grim lavamancer

4 ensnaring bridge
2 pithing needle


putting in the MD great furnace is a bad idea. it's prone to wasteland. i think i just replace it with darksteel citadel
pithing needles are there to halt MD activated abilities such as vial, jite or fetches. and eventually it can be sac to shrapnel blast
ensnaring bridge are the hoping to help me pacify their creatures. :)
price of progress is not a good card if the meta you're in is a mono-colored dominated meta.

from that experience, here's my latest list which i plan to use for the next local legacy tournament here:

15 mountains
3 wooded foothills

4 lightning bolts
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike
4 incinerate
3 fireblast
3 price of progress
3 flame javeline
3 browbeat

4 seal of fire
3 sulfuric vortex

4 ensnaring bridge

3 grim lavamancer

[redshoesrock]

hello! burn is my next project deck.
and here's the list that i used last local legacy here in the philippines were i ended 1-4

16 mountain
4 great furnace

4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
1 shard volley
3 price of progress
3 flame javaline
3 fireblast
3 browbeat
3 shrapnel blast

4 hellspark elemental
2 grim lavamancer

4 ensnaring bridge
2 pithing needle


putting in the MD great furnace is a bad idea. it's prone to wasteland. i think i just replace it with darksteel citadel
pithing needles are there to halt MD activated abilities such as vial, jite or fetches. and eventually it can be sac to shrapnel blast
ensnaring bridge are the hoping to help me pacify their creatures. :)
price of progress is not a good card if the meta you're in is a mono-colored dominated meta.

from that experience, here's my latest list which i plan to use for the next local legacy tournament here:

15 mountains
3 wooded foothills

4 lightning bolts
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike
4 incinerate
3 fireblast
3 price of progress
3 flame javeline
3 browbeat

4 seal of fire
3 sulfuric vortex

4 ensnaring bridge

3 grim lavamancer

My advice (for what it's worth) - replace the fetchlands with three mountains. If you're thinking you need to thin out your deck by using the fetches, you're doing it wrong. A proper burn deck either wins fast or loses fast; there's really not much in-between. By the time you've thinned the deck, you should have already won or lost. And why bother losing a life over getting a mountain when you can just...have the mountain.

Lose the Seal of Fire. Replace them with Chain Lightning. Yes, I know it's going to be about $10-$11 a card, but you're already playing a very cheap legacy archetype and you play PoP which is the 2nd most expensive burn card. Grow a pair and buy them.

Lose Browbeat. Long story short it doesn't work out the way you want it to. Here's a great article discussing why Browbeat isn't a good deck choice: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=7146. Replace them with Keldon Marauders.

Ensnaring Bridge, if you really want/need it, should be a sideboard card instead of in the maindeck. Replace them in the maindeck with either Flames of the Blood Hand, or if you're that worried about creatures try Flamebreak or Volcanic Fallout instead. Flamebreak is best against Zoo while Volcanic Fallout is best against Ichorid and Death & Taxes.

[jared_dow_30]

So I took a burn list to this past Saturday's Lotus moxen dual event in syracuse and went 5-1-1 taking 9th. Bad tiebreakers ftl.

3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Taiga
11x Mountain

4x Lightning bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
3x Incinerate
4x Magma Jet
4x Fireblast
3x Flamebreak
4x Price of Progress

4x Goblin Guide
4x Hellspark Elemental

SB
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Searing Blaze
2x Krosan Grip
2x Volcanic Fallout
3x Faerie Macabre


Hi there! New to the boards, and somewhat to Legacy. But I LOVE playing the red decks :) So i was just wondering how you SB with your deck against each MU?

[Clark Kant]

If you're going to play creatures in burn (basically Sligh)...

BOTH Goblin Guide AND Kiln Fiend are must plays.

Kiln Fiend is absurd in burn. If it hits, it often hits for 7-9 damage in a single swing!!

It basically ends the game than and there.

[Curby]

Yeah I'm not gonna do that. It has to stay around for a turn, and they just chump it with anything. I'm willing to accept that Goblin Guide can be good in spite of not guaranteeing damage like Keldon Marauders. Even Hellspark Elemental shows promise because it can hit twice. I'd use any or all of those three before Kiln Fiend. I'm not saying that Kiln Fiend will never win you games. I'm saying Kiln Fiend will often be better as another card. Of course, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise by actual results in competitive play.

[rufus]

Yeah I'm not gonna do that. It has to stay around for a turn, and they just chump it with anything. I'm willing to accept that Goblin Guide can be good in spite of not guaranteeing damage like Keldon Marauders. ...

I expect that Kiln Fiend and Goblin Guide are more sligh-ish, like the stuff in the RW landfall deck. It's not a bad concept, but it isn't burn.

[Curby]

Kiln Fiend and Keldon Marauders would both be much better with Reckless Charge, but the 8 critters by themselves aren't enough to justify Charge in Burn. In the interest of talking about Burn in the Burn thread, maybe we can discuss that elsewhere. =)

[DragoFireheart]

What does this deck do to a resolved [cards\Iona, Shield of Emeria[/cards]?

[AlterEgo]

scoop.

[Curby]

Although I don't agree, some people seem to use Larry Niven's Disk out of the side. The problem with that is it's a turn 5 solution at best, and you're dead after three attacks. That said, if Iona comes out late due to a bad draw from Reanimator, you've got the slightest chance in turning it around. Meekstone might buy you time to get some artifact-based removal online, but in practical terms, you scoop.

[urdjur]

Actually, I don't think I'd board Disk against Iona even if I did have it in my SB. There are much better answers for it.

Three decks run Iona: Reanimator, Survival (Loyal Retainers combo) and Ichorid (through Dread Return).

Faerie Macabre is a strong option against all three methods of getting her into play, as it can't be countered or Duressed, and is free to boot. Against Reanimator, you'll also want REB to stop their alternate Show and Tell plan (and to generally mess with them). Survival also has t1 Pithing Needle on SotF as a pretty potent stopper, as this prevents them from tutoring up the combo. It's pretty hard for Ichorid to dread return an Iona, and it's also pretty easy to stop. Burn will probably loose more games against Ichorid from an early zombie horde than Iona, but we have sweepers to help against that of course.

Techincally, I notice that the question is what we do against a "resolved Iona", but the key is that Burn should never let that happen. If you go for a splash build, something like Path to Exile is another possibility in the SB (though not resilient to counters in the same way as Faerie).

[bigbear102]

Ok, so since people like the list I guess I'll talk about it a bit. I give credit for this list to Doug (Damping Engine). He had a few more creatures in his build, and the list was slightly different, but i got the idea from him and stream-lined it a bit. I took out the Keldon Marauders (I have never liked that card, or seen it be worth playing, turn 2 with no evasion or haste makes it a 2 mana shock most of the time, and trading with their early creatures are not what you want to do with burn).

Goblin Guide is decent in this deck, 2x Goblin Guide in your opener is why I play him. He increases your clock significantly in those scenarios. 3x Goblin Guide with 2 Mountains in the opener means 18 damage by turn 3 with them alone. That may be Christmastown scenario, but even with 1 Guide, on the play he'll normally do 4-6, on the draw 2-4, and I actually won a number of games by blocking with them in the mid-late game. 2x Guide stayed on defense when my opponent playd a War Monk out of New Horizons and I was able to limit him to 3 life from the Rhino.

Hellspark Elemental is in here because he's a 3for2, and a 3for2, in 1 card. Burn needs reach, and this guy helps out quite a bit in that department. It always makes me smile when he gets Spell Snared, cuz that's CA for burn, and 1 less Snare for my PoP. The fact that he CANNOT be countered out of the grave is awesome, and if they want to Stifle his Unearth, that's fine, he stays in the grave for next turn ( I had one opponent play Stifle when I had 4 mana up, so I just played him again... lol). He gives a bit of reach to the deck, and is another tool to fight CB by just coming back unhindered.

The rest of the list is standard by my analysis. I like 18-19 land. I played the same list the following week with 19 land to a 5-2 finish (0-2 to start against TA and Catsligh, then 5-0 against UR Landstill, TA, New Horizons, Dredge, and Goblins. Swept every round but New Horizons).

I think sweepers are the key to my success with burn, I never play a list without at least 3 cards that deal with creatures in the MD. Flamebreak is my go-to answer because it allows me to kill stuff and deal damage to the player, again, burn does not get significant CA very often, so making sure every spell furthers your game plan is imperative to success. That is why you will never see me sleeving up Ensnaring Bridge (more on that in a minute).
Flamebreak is amazing agianst Zoo, as they will often not see it coming, and have 3-4 creatures sitting on the board when you get to 3 mana. Volcanic Fallout is pure Gold against Merfolk. They usually play 12-16 lords now, so you have to be careful of that untapped vial, but it is usually a card that I play ASAP in that matchup, as I want to slow them down and race them. It's not usually a drawn out game against the blue Goblins, it's an absolute race, and 2for1ing them on turn 3 is usually enough to give us the lead. It also deals with those pesky cursecatchers that act as half a chill.
My latest version has changed the sweeper config. to 2 Flamebreak and 1 Fallout main, with 2 Fallout and 1 Flamebreak in the board. It allows me to have access to both in G1 depending on the match, and when I'm up against Merfolk or goblins it gives me a full 6 sweepers. Against Zoo Fallout is normally not good enough to stay in, so I just go with the 3 Flamebreak in that match.

Ensnaring Bridge is a very weak card for burn to be playing. If we can't race our opponent we will lose most of our games. Bridge is even weaker in a deck with creatures, and that means any creatures. My strategy with burn is usually to play out every 1 mana spell in my hand as early as possible (creatures come first almost all the time, to lessen the chances of Goyfs ruining their day). I usually save the 2-3 mana spells until the last possible moment. PoP and Fireblast are game enders, and Flamebreak is used whenever I see an opening to 2for1, or more. Bridge forces you to play every card in your hand as early as possible. This makes PoP a worse card, and forces you to make bad decisions with Fireblast. Having sweepers in the deck instead allows you to proactively deal with your opponent's threats, and still allow you to play at the pace you want.

As far as the Sideboarding plan, let me give you the newest version that I have been working on first, and then I'll walk through the matchups and what to board. Here is the most recent list:

// Lands
12 [AN] Mountain
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [R] Taiga
1 [JGC] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [GTW] Hellspark Elemental

// Spells
2 [DS] Flamebreak
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [DD2] Fireblast
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
2 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Flamebreak
SB: 3 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [WWK] Searing Blaze


The MD has been tweaked to fight a creature heavy metagame and allow for 4 Searing Blaze to be more effective in the SB.

As for Sideboarding, this list is for a Zoo heave metagame, which I think will be true of the GP and most tournaments in the near future.

Against Zoo, this is what I'd do: -1 Fallout, -4 Lava Spike +4 Searing Blaze, +1 Flamebreak
This gives you 3 Flamebreak, and 4 Searing Blaze. I originally played Searing Blaze as a removal spell that deals damage to the opponent, which is why I didn't like it. It's a burn spell that kills a creature. Zoo is a race, just like any other match, but this one is a much closer race. Playing Searing Blaze as a removal spell makes you the control player, which you are NOT. You are the aggressor in this match, as your Prices will deal more damage, you play more fireblasts, and your average kill is normally faster. DO NOT TRY TO PLAY CONTROL! Burn their face and burn it often. As soon as you hit 3 mana play Flamebreak. As soon as you can play Searing Blaze for 3, do it, kill anything, it's a burn spell with kicker, not the other way around.

Merfolk: -4 Price of Progress, +2 Volcanic Fallout, +2 Searing Blaze
Flamebreak is still good against them, but watch out for counters. Fallout absolutely is MVP. You can bring in more Blazes if you feel comfortable, but I would not if they showed you Stifle game 1, most lists don't play it anymore, but be careful.

Combo: This list is not designed to beat combo, as most burn lists can't. Deal with it. Hope you can race them and stop ADN from being effective. Sometimes grave hate can help.

Landstill... hahahahhahahahaha

Counterbalance decks are too diverse right not to nail down a solid plan. Bring in 3 Grips, possibly some sweepers depending on the build. I would board out Lava Spike most of the time against them.

Dredge: Lava Spike is the worst card again, as they will sometimes be bringing in Chalice. I go -4 Spike,-2 Flamebreak, +3 Faerie Macabre, +2 Crypt, +1 Fallout.
Flamebreak does not kill anything more than Fallout does, and fallout gives you more options. Grave hate is obvious. Remember to watch their Bridges and play Hellsparks a lot more carefully in this match. Turn 2 is not always the right time for him. I have played Magma Jet on my own Goblin Guide in this match, as you get a lot of value out of that play. It's a mini extirpate + scry 2.

This takes a long time, I'll be back for more in a while.

[bigbear102]

Reanimator is a tough match. I board like this: -2 Flamebreak, -1 Fallout, -2 Fetches, +2 Crypt, +3 Faerie Macabre. I usually play burn with 18 land, so cutting a couple never bothers me, especially when I am lowering my curve by replacing 3cc spells with 0cc. I don't want to cut burn here because it is a race, and our boarded cards don't actually deal damage. Sweepers are obviously useless in this match anyway.


What does this deck do to a resolved [cards\Iona, Shield of Emeria[/cards]?


scoop.

As far as an Iona in play, hope that they have 2 cards in their library and deck themselves, otherwise, AlterEgo hit the nail right on the head.

Reanimator is the most likely to get an Iona into play, and the way to stop that is with grave hate, which should allow you to slow them down enough to get the win. Also, Reanimate is very weak against burn, so just try to race them. Without Mystical Tutor to find Exhume or another piece, Reanimator should not be as hard to beat as it was previously.

For Survival to get an Iona into play they need a Survival and 5 mana available. This is unlikely to happen before turn 4. Just kill them. Post board we have K. Grip and gy hate to slow them down.

Against Survival in general you will want K Grip, but will want to keep the sweepers in. Some people board gy hate, but I wouldn't unless it is to stop Iona. There are several different configs to board depending on what their primary objective is, so it's up to you. Sometimes Hellsparks and Guides get cut because of the abundance of blockers, sometimes they don't. This matchup is though for boarding decisions, but is generally favorable as a goldfish. Just play tightly, and be careful not to overboard and dilute the deck. I have been known to shuffle my board into my deck, and then play the same 60 in the second game as the first, cuz K Grip does not deal damage. It's up to you on tihs one.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Good stuff Bigbear. Your sideboarding plans seem really solid. I have been playing with the goblin guides and have been loving it. The Hellsparks have been more hit or miss though, and I am not completely sold on them.

[Sprite]

Hey, Bigbear i think your build is realy nice, but i need another sb.
We have a control meta and there will be played many Landstill (3 or 4 collored).

On the last Tournemant there was: (28 Players)

1 Dreadstill with Jace
2-3 Land.dec
1 Survival
2 Solidarity
1 Merfolk
1 Burn
1 Entchantress
2 Decks like Rock with Rhox War Monk
1 ANT
...

I hope you can help me, here is my Sideboard: (Maindeck is the same)

// Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 REB
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

I like Searing Blaze and I woul like to play it. I need the Sideboard for Combo and Control Decks.

What do you think about:

Out
-1 Magma Jet
-1 Price of Progress

In
+2 Searing Blaze

Why you are not playing Needle´s and what do you think about Ankh of Mishra Maindeck?

[urdjur]

Thanks for the extensive posts BigBear. A few questions:

*I notice that you're not boarding out Goblin Guide against Zoo. Yet, I can't see it do more than 2 damage on the play. Zoo tends to drop a creature/turn, meaning they will almost always have a blocker, and it most often has 3+ toughness. This is one of my main concerns with Goblin Guide, which I otherwise think is a decent MD option. I value it slightly less than both Hellspark Elemental and Marauders though. GG also has some trouble against Vial (merfolk, goblins) and in general as a top deck.

*You attribute a lot of your success against aggro to your sweepers. So do I! But how has Goblin Guide fared in that respect, since he has poor synergy with them (contrary to Hellspark and Marauders). My sweeper configuration right now is 3 Fallout in the main and 3 Powder Keg in the board. Keg is not only useful as a creature sweeper games 2-3 against aggro, but also acts as insurance against shenanigans that they might board in (like Jitte, Chalice, Thorn of Amethyst etc.) Also awesome against Ichorid and other token decks. Try it out and see if you like it.

*Has splashing been worth it for you? With fetches and duals, you open yourself up to Stifle and Wasteland. I know Zoo players who never get to 3 mana in games against Merfolk, but they win anyway thanks to creature superiority. When our win plan against them involves resolving a 3cc uncounterable (Fallout) on turn 3 (before the lords amass), I've come to appreciate how dependent Burn is on an undisruptable mana base. There's also the issue of taking roughly 2 more damage each game from fetches, which can matter a lot in the zoo match-up for instance. I also think that the options for handling stuff like Counterbalance are pretty adequate in mono red and artifact, so I think the green splash takes away more than it offers.

*I noticed thay you've dropped Mindbreak Trap from your side, which I think is a good call. I try to rely on a diversified sideboard where some cards have secondary uses against combo, but I don't think running dedicated combo hate is worth it for Burn. You devote fully 7 slots to the aggro MU though, which seems a bit much. We can usually race the purely aggro portion of any deck though, so I think it's more important to include anti-hate like Red Elemental Blast and Sulfuric Vortex (against stuff like Rhox War Monk for example) over cards like Searing Blaze. Searing Blaze is only a small improvement over something like Flamebreak which you can easily run in the main regardless of fetchlands. Whereas something like Sulfuric Vortex can mean the difference between winning and loosing.

[bigbear102]

@Lord: Hellsparks shine against midrange blue based decks. They give you that little bit of reach that you need. Being able to go creature turn 1, creature turns 2-3, dealing damage along the way, and keeping 4-6 cards in your hand allow you to win the game much easier. It gets around CB and any other counterspell they may have. I actually had opponents boarding in grave hate against me, which is awesome, because it means my opponent is using his resources on something that is not furthering his game plan, and actually hinders yours very little.

@Sprite: On your board, I really don't like Relic. Granted it replaces itself, it makes you take a full turns worth of mana or more to actually hit them. It may also make you have to leave mana open to use it, or possibly even miss the point in the game when you need it. Tormod's Crypt is better in my opinion because we don't need to stop our opponents from doing whatever it is they want to do, we just need to slow them down long enough to beat them. Just my 2cents.

I also don't like REB in burn. It does nothing to advance your game plan. Krosan Grip is the catchall card that I play to cover those things. If you are seeing a lot of War Monks I guess it's alright, but I haven't liked REB since Solidarity lost favor, which from what you say there are a few in your meta, so it might be worth it. Less narrow than a lot of other options.

I don't like searing blaze maindeck at all, it is going to be an Incinerate at best in some matchups, and worse than Lava Dart in some situations. It's really good against some decks, but really bad against others. If you want a better game against aggro, play a couple more sweepers in the board. It helps a lot. As far as needing board slots for control and combo, you should be crushing control already, probably upwards of 80% in most matchups. I feel that the combo matchup is so dismal that it isn't worth boarding for, especially since it is usually the smallest chunk of the meta. Again, if you're worried about Solidarity, Pillar is as good as it gets.

I don't play Needle because people don't play CoP:Red. Krosan Grip handles most of the same cards Needle does, plus CB, and my increased number of sweepers and creature control cards have made Jitte reasonable when I see it.

I don't like Ankh because it's good against control (our best match) and bad against aggro and combo (our even to worst matches).

Again, I'll get back to this a little later.

[Nelis]

I always regarded Burn as a irrelevant deck that loses against most decks but I tested the deck a bit yesterday and I was impressed. It beats Goblins fairly easily, the same is generally true for UW Tempo.

But I found the Zoo match-up not that good 50/50 at best. 2 Damage from Volcanic fallout isn't enough to kill their creatures. I understand that Volcanic Fallout is good vs Merfolk. But I wonder if it's not smarter to put Flamebreaks in the main instead of Fallout? I have the feeling it improves the Zoo match-up more than it hurts the Merfolk match-up.

[urdjur]

@Nelis: Quite correct. The Zoo vs. Burn MU is almost the same as the Zoo vs. Zoo match-up - 50%. It's largely a race, and assuming both players get equal hands and top decks, whoever goes first typically wins. Cards like Keldon Marauders, Flamebreak and Sulfuric Vortex/Flames of the Blood Hand (against Lightning Helix) make the MU more favorable (mainly from making wins more likely even when on the draw). Fetchlands and other suicidal effects like Flame Rift make it worse.

You're also correct that Flamebreak over Volcanic hurts Merfolk less than Volcanic over Flamebreak hurts Zoo. BUT! There are other matches than Zoo and Merfolk, and that's why Volcanic Fallout is often more popular MD. If all you see is tribal aggro and zoo, you should probably play Flamebreak (if Goblins run Rishadan Port though, Fallout at instant speed is slightly better since they can't lock you out of 3 mana then). If you also see a smattering of Ichorid, Death and Taxes, Faeries, Meathooks, decks with manlands etc. - the instant speed, hitting fliers and the uncounterability will matter more than the extra point of damage. Fallout also has more synergy with Keldon Marauders, clearing a path for them against tribal aggro.

[Bill Stark]

Patrick Sullivan recently made the Top 32 of Grand Prix-Columbus playing Burn. You can read his tournament report here (http://thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/-/GP_Columbus_Top_32_with_BURN).

This is his decklist:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast

8 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar (storm based combo, Aluren, etc)
4 Vexing Shusher (Counterbalance)
4 Searing Blaze (Dudes)
3 Tormod's Crypt (...)

[Psyqo]

Holy fetchlands Batman! I'd think that would be far too many, but obviously it worked for him.

I ran a creature-less burn at the GP and went 5-4. My losses were to Elfball (should have Flamebreak'ed the turn before he went off), Doomsday w/ Emrakul, GWB Rock, and Countertop Thopter (mulligan to 4 hurts).

I'll have to try out a list like his soon. I just figured that creatures were a bad idea since everyone and their brother were trying to hate out Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo.

A local guy ran a burn list with Ankh of Mishra and went 6-3. I had been testing with it but decided to take it out as I felt it had too much of the Browbeat-effect in that in most circumstances the opponent choses the best course of action for him, as opposed to you dictating that course of action. I luckily avoided Lands at the tourney but he ran into them, so the Ankhs were pros in that matchup.

[Curby]

Wow, playing Flame Rift in this environment is really ballsy. I used to run it, but that was when the game was a bit slower. Against the mirror, Zoo, or anything else that's fast Flame Rift is generally a bad idea. I'm more surprised by that than the fetches.

[ScatmanX]

Wow, playing Flame Rift in this environment is really ballsy. I used to run it, but that was when the game was a bit slower. Against the mirror, Zoo, or anything else that's fast Flame Rift is generally a bad idea. I'm more surprised by that than the fetches.

In the report he explains why he run Flame Rift, and why he doesn't board them out against Zoo.

[Curby]

Obviously it worked for him, but it still doesn't make sense to me. If it were an even trade, then I could certainly see the point. But you're left down a card and two mana, which means a hell of a lot when all that matters is speed. He says you're slightly faster, but how slight is that? Your speed advantage may be negated if you're losing cards and mana. /shrug

[urdjur]

In the report he explains why he run Flame Rift, and why he doesn't board them out against Zoo.

He also explains how he had to board out Kiln Fiend against Zoo, and would like to have boarded out Goblin Guide as well. Had he run neither of those cards however, I'm confidant that Flame Rift would have been boarded out for Searing Blaze instead. The problem was he had several cards in the deck that were bad in the aggro MU, and Rift simply wasn't bad enough.

Reading his report, it seems most of his problems came from:
*Flame Rift over Magma Jet: He often finds himself low on life against aggro while still needing to top deck that last spell and often drawing blanks. A card that tweaks draws over a card that deals self damage would have helped this.
*Creatures over Sweepers: He runs into removal several times which is a form of disruption that Burn shouldn't really be a victim too. And he has trouble with Ichorid and Goblins for lack of sweepers, and looses to 13 goblin tokens on turn 2.

[bigbear102]

I agree with pretty much everything urdjur said.

As far as the list, I have never liked Lavamancer, cuz it's a huge target in a deck with very few other targets. I guess playing Fiend helps in that regard, cuz they both have big targets, but I don't like either one that much. If you are going to play mancer though, 12 fetches is probably the right way to go.

I really want to play Flame Rift also, as zoo is the only match that it is really dangerous in, and Patrick is right, we are a bit quicker. The problem is I don't want to cut anything to make room for it. I'll never play burn without Jet until they make a red Brainstorm. Aside from that, I keep thinking the Hellspark slot can be cut for it, but I really like Hellspark now.

I keep wanting to update the board to include Shusher, but at the same time, Counterbalance seems to be less of a threat. The real problem is I don't want to board anything out in that matchup, I guess sweepers, but I still really like my Grips too. We'll have to see.

Anyway, I'm glad that stupid burn made a showing at the event. It shows that the deck can do well when piloted by a competent player, even if it is what I believe to be a subpar list. I also doubt that he would disagree with that, cuz he said himself that he didn't test the deck, and threw Kiln Fiend in the deck without even testing a game with it until round 2.

[urdjur]

Yeah, reading the report I was surprised to see Lavamancer get active so often, but I also figured that Guide/Fiend shielded it. Burn needs a few reusable damage sources IMO, but there are better options than Lavamancer. You get the far more resilient Sulfuric Vortex for roughly the same mana investment and damage potential, and it also blanks life gain in those last critical turns of game play. I've been main decking them for some time now - the self damage against Zoo isn't so bad when you consider it also blanks Lightning Helix. Hellspark Elemental is another reusable damage source that works better with sweepers than Lavamancer - also more resilient as it requires mana open and StP/PtE. I also use Shivan Gorge (I prefer it over Barbarian Ring) as a mana sink for those times when you wait for that last top deck.

As for your list Bigbear, I don't think you need to worry about fitting Shusher when you have Grips already. The advantage to your build IMO is that Grip handles so many board lock problems at once that you can afford to run stuff like Searing Blaze against aggro. I play mono red Burn and use a 2/2/2 split of Shusher, Needle and REB against CounterTop. It's almost as effective as a playset of Grips.

[Scatterbrain]

So i just went 3-1 in a casual legacy tournament, only losing to a Runed Halo on Fireblast with 3 in hand vs. Countertop after he fetches all 7 (!!!) of his basics. I am playing a pretty much stock list (with green splash for grips):

9 Mountain
1 Taiga
9 Fetches

4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
3 Hellspark Elemental

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
3 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Reckless Abandon
2 Volcanic Fallout


Sideboard

1 Price of Progress
4 Powder Keg
4 Searing Blaze
2 Pyroblast
2 REB
2 Krosan Grip

The key cards are:

Reckless Abandon: This card is absolutely insane. With 10-12 creatures, this card speeds the clock up by about half a turn. It turns Keldon Marauders into 9 damage and Hellsparks into 10. It also means that in Goyf matchups your guides will do more than get in once or twice. The chances of having more than one or having one without creatures is something like 3% of games, and the only matchup this will matter in is combo, in which this is already the best card in the deck (it allows you to race ANT if you win the flip and they have a mediocre or bad hand). Oh, and it also saves your Hellsparks from path/swords. When this card is good, it is GREAT.

Powder Keg: Seriously, why aren't people playing this?
@ 0 it is the win vs. either dredge or any combo deck using empty the warrens because it buys enough time to burn for lethal.
@ 2 vs. Counter-top is a game-changer. I will drop this turn two then they will either force it (instead of your fireblast) or you will blow it on 2 taking their counterbalance, and hopefully a goyf. Then they are unprotected for at least a turn.

By the way, the reason I play this over EE is that against counter-top it is that you pay mana upfront rather than when you blow it up so that you can maximize damage against counter-top. It is also harder to produce two colors than one and losing because you don't draw a fetch is terrible.

My meta is almost all Merfolk, Counter-top, and combo, so this board is to combat that.

Any thoughts?

[mujadaddy]

Reckless Abandon: it also saves your Hellsparks from path/swords.

Powder Keg:
@ 2 vs. Counter-top blow it on 2 taking their counterbalance

Any thoughts?Yes, Reckless Abandon is a Sorcery, and Powder Keg doesn't hit Enchantments.

[urdjur]

Powder Keg has many nifty uses, but unfortunately, beating Counterbalance isn't one of them. They are useful against:

*Aggro decks running or possibly boarding in artifact shenanigans like Jitte, Chalice etc. Either you destroy their "answer", or you use it as a creature sweeper in case they didn't draw/board it. So it's very useful as "insurance" for game 2.
*Ichorid and anything with Empty the Warrens as a wincon.
*Stax (hitting Chalice, Mox and manlands) and stompy shells in general
*Raffinity

I run 2 in my board, but if I ran a splash build they would probably be EE instead. You loose the ability to hit manlands, but gain the ability to hit enchantments - which is useful even with Grips (especially in game 2 if you don't really know what they might board in). The added mana investment at 1 and 2 is compensated by being a full turn faster.

[Scatterbrain]

Yes, Reckless Abandon is a Sorcery, and Powder Keg doesn't hit Enchantments.

Funny, after playing this in a four round tournament I figure somebody would have noticed that. Guess I am completely wrong on Abandon. Though the keg is still great in many matchups.

[コーヒー]

I really like Sullivan's list. I think his creatures are just what this deck needs. I've been playing Keldon Marauders but i haven't been loving them. Maybe the switch to Lavamancer is what i've been looking for, anyone else have any success with the 'mancer?

[mujadaddy]

I played mancers with Kiln Fiends as my only other creatures. Was pretty fun. Fast. I should pick that up again.


15 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
//\\
// Creatures
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Emberwilde Augur
//\\
// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
4 Manamorphose
2 Searing Blaze
3 Fireblast
4 Magma Jet
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Incinerate
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Krosan Grip
2 Forest
1 Shattering Spree

[urdjur]

I really like Sullivan's list. I think his creatures are just what this deck needs.

You mean apart from the fact that he tells us that they aren't in his own tournament report?

@mujadaddy: Argh, my eyes! That's a pretty awful list, wouldn't you agree?

[CorpT]

You mean apart from the fact that he tells us that they aren't in his own tournament report?

@mujadaddy: Argh, my eyes! That's a pretty awful list, wouldn't you agree?


That's not what he said. What he said was that Marauder should be main over Kiln Fiend and Kiln Fiend in the board. I tested and definitely agree with Marauder main. Kiln Fiend in the board I'm still not sold on.

[technogeek5000]

I have two simple questions. Since a strength of burn has always seemed, to me atleast, that it can do other things while simultaneously burning the opponent. This was why I was suprised to see a lack of searing blaze in these maindeck lists. Even if it needs a creature to target, wouldnt searing as a two of in the main be good. Also, I was wondering if Runeflare Trap had been discussed as an option to bring in against ANT and thresh.

[Gocho]

The only card that grants that ANT or Thresh "draw 3 or more cards" are Brainstorm. If he doesn't play it. You need double cantrip in his turn to play Runeflare paying the alternative cost.

Ponder and Preordain draw one, Ad Nauseam and tutors draw 0.

I think that don't worth the slot.

[Curby]

The main problem with Searing Blaze is that it's only good if you can guarantee Landfall, and that just about requires that you weaken your landbase with fetches. If you're splashing anyway, then it's a possibility.

[CorpT]

The main problem with Searing Blaze is that it's only good if you can guarantee Landfall, and that just about requires that you weaken your landbase with fetches. If you're splashing anyway, then it's a possibility.

That's not the problem with Searing Blaze. Searing Blaze is perfectly fine as a sorcery, and adding fetches doesn't weaken your mana base. The problem with Searing Blaze is that having a dead card in your hand is just about the worst thing in the world. Price of Progress makes the cut because it is so backbreaking against so many decks - either by burning them out, or by forcing them to fetch basics and very few decks play only basics. Against creatures, Searing Blaze feels extremely unfair. 6 damage for 2 mana is nothing to scoff at. But the fact that you can't even cast it unless they have a creature is a huge issue. At least with Price, you can usually hit them for 2 in the worst case.

[Plague Sliver]

Looking for some feedback on my 75. Especially some of the sideboard slots.

Cards I tried and cut
- Lavamancer/fetches package: removal magnet. At least Guide strikes fast and Keldon/Hellspark are more pseudo-burn spells than creatures.
- Kiln Field: found it lacking. Tapping out turn 2 to play the Fiend only to have it exiled is a huge tempo loss.
- Searing Blaze: too conditional.

19x Mountain

4x Hellspark Elemental
4x Goblin Guide
4x Keldon Marauders

4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Magma Jet
4x Lava Spike
3x Rift Bolt
2x Pyrostatic Pillar

Sideboard:

4x Vexing Shusher
4x Smash to Smithereens
3x Sulfuric Vortex
4x Tormod's Crypt

My meta has Goblins, Countertop, Merfolk, Stax, Ichorid, Lands, Belcher, TES.

- I'll probably give up the combo matchups, unless I really want to play 4 Mindbreak Traps.
- Struggling to think of a viable substitute for 3x Sulfuric Vortex. Any suggestions?
- Thought about running Blood Moon Magus but it's too hard to resolve him vs. any permission deck unless Shusher goes in, and it's going away from what this deck tries to be, which is fast kill. A bit off the curve.

[Pastorofmuppets]

List

I found that 2 Simian Spirit Guide and some Pyrostatic Pillar go a long way against combo.

[Curby]

@CorpT: I still think landfall's a problem with Searing Blaze. You're right in saying that requiring a creature is also a problem though, even though this is Legacy and that's not generally too hard to find. I guess it's just too conditional overall. =)

[martyr]

Searing Blaze is remarkable when it works, but it does seem to have only one real benefit over Flamebreak but a lot of hoops you have to jump through to take advantage of it. Ok, two, but you losing 3 life after wiping much of your opponent's board isn't a massive problem. Flamebreak isn't entirely dead in the main against non-creature decks, whereas Blaze is.

I'd totally missed Smash to Smithereens, it's a good idea for the sideboard.

I've been looking around for some not too situational, non-creature cards to give the deck a bit of reach.
Copper Tablet
Psychogenic Probe
Scalding Tongs
Cursed Scroll
Ankh of Mishra
Isochron Scepter

That's what I can come up with, not sure which are ideal, if any. Scroll, Probe, Scalding Tongs, Ankh, and Scepter all require you to play differently, though, or have little effect on some opponents. Copper Tablet seems piddly, though, and it takes six turns to even match most of the rest of your deck's damage to mana ratio, hurting you the whole time.

[bigbear102]

Searing Blaze is not a card to put in the MD. It is a sub par Lava Dart against some decks, and sometimes Incinerate just isn't that good (see a 3/4 Goyf, Rhox War Monk, Tombstalker, etc) when you have to play it on your turn, or save a fetch to make it at least playable. Against Zoo, it is a house.

As far as people not playing sweepers, good luck. I can't imagine playing in such a diverse metagame without a pseudo-reset button. There have been several times that bad aggro decks were going to race me because of bad draws, only to be completely devastated by a sweeper wiping their board. Too many people rely on the deck's goldfish speed. In reality, the deck just fizzles a decent amount of the time, and if you can't buy yourself a couple of extra turns, you will lose much more often than you would expect, even against slower decks.

@Plaguesliver: Why are you playing 2x Pyrostatic Pillar MD? You don't even have the other 2 in the board to make it decent against combo. You say you will probably just give up the combo matches, but you already have. 2x Pillar does not even come close to a decent plan. Cut the Pillars.

As for replacing the Vortex, it depends on what you want to fight with it. My main problem is Jitte, and you already have Smash.

SSG is an interesting idea, but as far as I'm concerned combo isn't popular enough to dedicate enough slots.

@martyr: I agree with you about Flamebreak and Blaze, but as far as the list of cards to try, throw them out. Cursed Scroll is the only possibly viable option, and even then it's just not that great. If you're running mono-red I always throw in 2x Barbarian Ring. They don't slow you down, and will give you the oomph you need in the long game a lot of times. A lot of people claim you can't run them without fetches, but I have done it several times and not had any problems. I suppose running them alongside Hellspark Elementals might be an issue, but I think it's still better than all of the artifacts that you suggested.

[Iranon]

@ martyr: The cards you listed don't really help plan A (kill them with fire on turn 3-4). Ankh is the one with highest potential rewards, but it's also too situational. Fighting the deck's tendency to burn out on you with a card that's a horrid topdeck seems self-defeating; it would also require a way to play it on turn 1 for full effects and I don't think fast mana is the way to go.

Sulfuric Vortex is probably a better option, and I'm not fond of that card either. One card I do like, however, is Pulse of the Forge. 4-for-3 is rather poor, but it's still good enough to remain relevant for plan A
It gives you a reusable damage source if you were forced to pick off problem creatures or ate a minor Tendrils early on. It gives you the functionality you're looking for most of the time, sacrificing rather little (less than 1 point of damage, because we'd probably play an unconditional 5-for-3).

[urdjur]

I can't get behind the "12 creatures trend" in Burn, though I realize the need for some reusable damage sources. Pulse of the Forge will only rarely be reusable thoguh, as we're ahead in the damage race almost all of the time. The only ones I think are worth it are:

*Sulfuric Vortex: The strongest one IMO. Downside is that it's vulnerable to enchantment removal and symmetrical. Also pretty bad in multiples, and slow as a top deck.
*Goblin Guide: Not very dependable and bad as a top deck. Not convinced that this is better than Lava Spike on average. The times it deals 6 damage must be weighed against the times it deals 0.
*Hellspark Elemental: Slightly easier to get through than the Guide, but only useable twice. 4 mana for potentially 6 damage is about on par with what you can expect from Sulfuric Vortex. Vulnerable to instant speed exiling effects (StP/PtE), but otherwise fairly resilient.
*Barbarian Ring: Only usable once but can give that extra reach. Only problem is that it doesn't really help mana flood, since an excess of mountains means you won't reach threshold. Easier to remedy this if you play Shard Volley alongside Fireblast and no anti-synergistic cards like Vortex/Hellspark.
*Shivan Gorge: An alternative to Barbarian Ring that many scoff at prematurely. It helps the mana flood issue a lot more than Ring - in fact, it's enabled by mana flood rather than disabled by it. Let's you play mini Cursed Scroll when your hand is empty while waiting for killer top decks. Not good with Flamebreak though, and of course vulnerable to Wasteland.

[martyr]

I guess the only real way to get reach is to either take some large hits in life or by pushing your fundamental turn back pretty far on average. Barbarian Ring is a good call.

The problem with running fewer creatures is generally that if you have too many, you're too slow, and if you have too few, your opponent's removal becomes relevant and you risk your hands being dead depending on what you draw.

[Iranon]

Pulse of the Forge may not be reusable most of the time... but from my experience it's usually reusable when we need it to be so:

Normally, we have the dilemma that we run literally dozens of potential anti-creature spells but don't want to use them as such because if we do so we tend to run out of steam first. The ability to hit them for 4 nonsymetrical damage per turn when behind allows us to play and win as Mono-Red Control.
Pulse may or may not allow us to recover from enemy lifegain (which normally pushes our clock back by a turn per 2 life gained)... but it deserves mention for being useful after the fact. We end up with spare mana in a game that goes longer than planned, so the 3 mana per turn is no problem either.

Burn decks need to be tight and make as few investments as possible to address their shortcomings, rather than run something that addresses our concern well but doesn't contribute much to plan A. Smash to Smithereens over artifact removal that's actually good as such is a perfect example.
Pulse is a moderately good answer that you don't even need at the time a normally game-deciding SNAFU occurs, that is also a good topdeck and that can feature in the standard plan of 'deal 20ish damage with 7ish spells and 9ish mana over 4ish turns'.

[コーヒー]

For those of you in favor of sweepers, do you ever find it hard to actually get to 3 mana? I've been testing 3 flamebreak main to burn away Goblins particularly, but on average im dead before i have enough mana. I run 19 land, which seems to be pretty average.

[urdjur]

Do you also run Magma Jet? Because a 2-land hand with Magma Jet almost guarantees a timely third land drop if that's what you really need. I also assume you're mulliganing your 1-land hands.

A straight 60 card deck without Jet or other sneaky stuff and 20 lands makes its t3 land drop about 50% of the time. Running 3-4 sweepers gives you another roughly 50% chance of finding one come turn 3. So a turn 3 sweep will be possible about 25% of the time (more with Magma Jet) against Goblins (it's practically an auto-win when you pull it off, unless they have Jitte).

[コーヒー]

I'm running only 2 Jet's right now. It just seems weak at what it does (2 mana for 2 damage). But maybe i should up the count to four and test it. And also, the only 1 land hands i'm keeping have Goblin guide(s).

[Iranon]

2 Magma Jets feels off. None in a straightforward deck (our spells are mostly interchangeable anyway, I want efficiency), 4 in a build with a decent number of sweepers/high-end reusable damage sources or other tricks (dig for the right card or the mana to cast it).

Cave-In is also an option, no mana issues there... and the inefficiency may be less crippling than expected because you can get away with less land and no Jets. More suited to Not-Quite-Sligh lists though.

[コーヒー]

Cave-in seems so risky in burn. We already have no card advantage, and this just puts us into topdeck mode faster. But it still seems worth testing, for reasons Iranon previously stated. Im trying to make a build without Jet, with a focus on more powerful cards.

[pocari79]

Mini-tournament report. This past Saturday, I split for 1st with the following deck

12x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Barbarian Ring

4x Goblin Guide
3x Hellspark Elemental
2x Grim Lavamancer

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
3x Incinerate
3x Price of Progress
3x Fireblast
3x Sulfuric Vortex

Sideboard
3x Flamebreak
3x Searing Blaze
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3x Sirocco

About the card choices. Only 2 lavamancers because I felt they're really horrible in multiples and once I get one on the table, merfolk and goblins might as well just concede. Also, barbarian ring and lavamancers might seem to be unsynergistic but there's only 1 ring and 2 lavamancers. Usually i don't get both the ring and lavamancer in play at the same time so i've never been burned by that.

I changed the volcanic fallout into flamebreaks and haven't looked back. the difference between 2 and 3 damage is pretty much like life and death against zoo and merfolk. Searing Blazes are a given since I play fetchlands and I feel that 6 fetchlands support the searing blazes fine. I used to play 3 Krosan Grips and had the 1 Taiga to support it and I ended up not liking it much since even one wasteland means that I would only be able to use the grip once and then my taiga is stripped which will leave me with 2 dead grips in my deck. I figured if anybody was playing some enchantment hate like chill, leyline of sanctity, COP: red or enchantress, i might as well just fold.

The Boseiju and Sirocco are my answers to countertop/landstill type decks. Usually those decks don't play wastelands or threats do the 2 life won't matter much.

There were 12 people at this tournament so 4 rounds of swiss. On to the report:

Round 1 - Merfolk (16 lord version) W 2-0

I feel that the burn deck is actually less afraid of the 16 lord version as there's no standstills and no stifles/spell pierces at all. Playing around Daze and cursecatcher isn't that difficult so there's only Force of Wills to handle the spells. both games ended quick as he didn't draw any relevant counterspells. I boarded in the 3 flamebreaks, searing blazes and smash to smithereens and took out the 3 sulfuric vortex, 4 lava spike and 2 hellspark elementals.

Round 2 - Goblins W 2-0

I find that whoever goes first in this matchup wins more often than not and if goblins gets the double lackey or a draw where he gets a drop every turn for the first 3 turns, you're going to have to bolt his guys instead of him which slows you down dramatically while he can get lucky with a ringleader and refill his hand. Was a bit lucky in this match that he didn't have the perfect curve while I did and I was able to deal with each of his creatures with searing blaze and flamebreaks. I boarded in 3 flamebreaks, searing blazes and smash to smithereens and took out the 3 sulfuric vortex, price of progress and 3 lava spikes

Round 3 - B/G survival Madness L 0-2

I never saw this type of survival madness before but i think it's probably better than the U/G or the W/G version since it's way more proactive with cabal therapies, shriekmaws and thoughtseizes plus it has some explosive starts.

Game 1 he did this on turn 1. Bayou, putrid imp, discard vengevine, discard vengevine, discard rootwalla and pay madness cost, both vengevines trigger, attack for 8. on turn 1. and if he has another land, it's he can attack for 12 next turn. meanwhile my turn 1 mountain, goblin guide seemed to pale in comparison. Game 2 wasn't very pretty either as I was a bit land screwed and wasn't able to think up the right plays to survive until I was able to cast flamebreak. Game 2 ended around turn 5. I boarded in 3 flamebreaks and searing blaze, took out 3 sulfuric vortex and 3 lava spikes. as i don't have any graveyard hate, my only plan is to rush them before the deck overwhelms me.

Round 4 - 4C Zoo W 2-0

there was 1 guy at 9 points and 5 of us at 6 points. so all of us at 6 points had to play for top 4.

I feel that preboarded games, it seems like whoever goes first will win. as their guys are pretty much repeatable bolts while yours are one shot spells. I managed to draw more bolts than he did action and managed a close win. Game 2 he had to mull to 4 and kept a no land hand and didn't draw a land until my 4th turn. That's pretty much game over since I had a fairly good grip of burn spells that I saved up just in case he got mana and started casting dudes. I boarded in 3 flamebreaks and searing blazes and took out 3 sulfuric vortex and hellspark elementals

Top 4 - B/G Survival Madness W 2-1

these were really close and intense games as we both knew that the game can end on each of our turn 4s. Game 1 was pretty epic as he mulled to 4 but i didn't have much of a hand. Should have mulled but i felt going down to 6 was going to be bad. On my turn 3, it seemed like i had a good position since i had a goblin guide in play and he had nothing significant and I was winning in life totals by around 6 points. I decided to play a sulfuric vortex. Next turn, he manages to discard vengevine, cast birds of paradise, evoke shriekmaw to kill my guide, bring back vengevine and all of a sudden, i have no blockers and he's got a 4 power guy and now i'm going to be behind in life totals soon. I was drawing crap and decided that I had to try to bring his life total to something low and pray i topdeck some good stuff. I topdecked a barbarian ring with no threshold and played my 2nd sulfuric vortex. next turn, i was at 1 and he was at 7. I topdecked a fireblast and that was game. cast fireblast, achieved threshold, sac ring for 2 and then sulfuric vortex deal the rest of the damage. WHEW! I boarded in 3 flamebreak and searing blaze and took out the 3 sulfuric vortex and 3 hellspark elementals. Game 2, neither of us mulled and I was a bit mana screwed and needed one more mana to win. for game 3, boarded out the 2 lavamancers and boarded in the hellspark elementals. I felt that the lavamancers were useless since all of his 1 toughness guys comes down on the same turn the vengevine comes into play. Game 3 he had to mulligan to 5 but I had the perfect hand where I had enough bolts to send to his head, searing blaze with landfall to kill his important creatures and when he did get the vengevine out, next turn i cleared the board with flamebreak and then i drew more bolts and was able to finish him off next turn.

The survival/madness deck is just insane in how it can swing the board situation from really bad to really good in just one turn.

Finals - Split with U/r control. it was pretty much mono-U except the red is just for firesprouts in the board.

[YrdBrd72803]

Kyle Miller finished 2nd at the StarCityGames Legacy Open in Denver over the weekend with this list:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Searing Blaze
3 Volcanic Fallout

Pretty standard stuff except for the inclusion of the set of Lavamancers and Vortexes main. The only thing that looks a lil out of sorts to my eyes is 12 fetches. Seems about 4 too many. I think 8 fetches combined with the number of spells hitting the graveyard would give you plenty of Lavamancer food. With Lavamancer in the main, perhaps the Vortexes should be Flamebreak/Fallout?

[Lifeless]

Kyle Miller finished 2nd at the StarCityGames Legacy Open in Denver over the weekend with this list:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Searing Blaze
3 Volcanic Fallout

Pretty standard stuff except for the inclusion of the set of Lavamancers and Vortexes main. The only thing that looks a lil out of sorts to my eyes is 12 fetches. Seems about 4 too many. I think 8 fetches combined with the number of spells hitting the graveyard would give you plenty of Lavamancer food. With Lavamancer in the main, perhaps the Vortexes should be Flamebreak/Fallout?

Kyle is a good friend and testing partner of mine so I can try to shed some light on the Vortexes. He loves them because if you're ahead you can often stick one and win outright. There's no way he would have beaten Enchantress in round 2 without them in the main to get him game 1.

[martyr]

I've been thinking about Repercussion as a sideboard card against creature-based decks, instead of Searing Blaze or maybe in addition to it (in Kyle's deck, in place of the Volcanic Fallouts). I like it over Fallout because it gives you a more solid answer to decks whose creatures are frequently pumped over 2 toughness (merfolk, zoo, etc). In an aggro-heavy meta, you can drop most of the creatures maindeck in favor of Flamebreak and Magma Jet (Flamebreak should be obvious, Magma Jet to increase the likelihood of hitting your third land drop or sweeping the board when it's most relevant), with a few copies of Repurcussion in the SB. Drop some combination of Sulfuric Vortex, your remaining creatures, and Price of Progress, side in the Repercussions and Searing Blaze, and go to town. As soon as Repercussion hits, assuming you get to untap and no extremely unlucky draws occur, you're almost guaranteed to win the race...and going t3 Repercussion, t4 Flamebreak is hilarious. Turn 4 wins when a zoo player thought he was going to be able to race with his god hand are hilarious, as is hitting a Goblins player for 15+.

It might be too slow, it might be too fragile, but I doubt anyone's really expecting it, and the few games I've played with friends suggest that it can really break open an aggro-heavy meta.

[pocari79]

I've been thinking about Repercussion as a sideboard card against creature-based decks, instead of Searing Blaze or maybe in addition to it (in Kyle's deck, in place of the Volcanic Fallouts). I like it over Fallout because it gives you a more solid answer to decks whose creatures are frequently pumped over 2 toughness (merfolk, zoo, etc). In an aggro-heavy meta, you can drop most of the creatures maindeck in favor of Flamebreak and Magma Jet (Flamebreak should be obvious, Magma Jet to increase the likelihood of hitting your third land drop or sweeping the board when it's most relevant), with a few copies of Repurcussion in the SB. Drop some combination of Sulfuric Vortex, your remaining creatures, and Price of Progress, side in the Repercussions and Searing Blaze, and go to town. As soon as Repercussion hits, assuming you get to untap and no extremely unlucky draws occur, you're almost guaranteed to win the race...and going t3 Repercussion, t4 Flamebreak is hilarious. Turn 4 wins when a zoo player thought he was going to be able to race with his god hand are hilarious, as is hitting a Goblins player for 15+.

It might be too slow, it might be too fragile, but I doubt anyone's really expecting it, and the few games I've played with friends suggest that it can really break open an aggro-heavy meta.

This card suffers from the fact that 1: do you really want to tap out when you get 3 mana to cast this spell that does nothing for your board position and you're giving aggro an extra turn to try to kill you first before you can kill them, 2: you really don't want to have multiple copies of this card in your opening hand and 3: topdecking this card when you need burn. This card is kind of like furnace of rath where if you get to untap with it, you'll rock their world but usually they'll rock your world instead.

Even if this enchantment was just R or even 1R to cast, I wouldn't play it just because it's a dead card when topdeck it and you already have it in play.

[Curby]

If you want to break open an aggro-heavy meta, just run more sweepers. If you can consistently wipe the board, you'll have the turns to kill them with burn anyway. For competitive play, you don't want fancy combos that can be hilarious in 1 game out of 10, and mediocre to horrible in every other case.

In competitive play, you want consistency and minimized dead draws. In competitive burn, you want to reduce your exposure to opposing removal and reduce the number of dependencies in your deck. Repercussion doesn't help any of that.

[urdjur]

Kyle is a good friend and testing partner of mine so I can try to shed some light on the Vortexes. He loves them because if you're ahead you can often stick one and win outright. There's no way he would have beaten Enchantress in round 2 without them in the main to get him game 1.

I also run Vortex main (though not 4), but I don't understand the usefulness against Enchantress. Most Enchantress builds have 2-3 slots of enchantment removal (seals, ORing, aura) and 4-6 tutors to get them (grove, Etutor) plus their draw engine. To me, the match comes down to killing them with any number of your spells before they can stick Solitary Confinement - if they do, you're screwed with or without Vortex. Even if Vortex would help, they should be able to remove it next turn without problems. So how did it help him?

[Lifeless]

I also run Vortex main (though not 4), but I don't understand the usefulness against Enchantress. Most Enchantress builds have 2-3 slots of enchantment removal (seals, ORing, aura) and 4-6 tutors to get them (grove, Etutor) plus their draw engine. To me, the match comes down to killing them with any number of your spells before they can stick Solitary Confinement - if they do, you're screwed with or without Vortex. Even if Vortex would help, they should be able to remove it next turn without problems. So how did it help him?

Vortex really just finished him off. I realize it's not going to commonly go down like that but he was unable to find Confinement in time and the 2 damage per turn plus a couple good rips ended it. I overstated how strong it was in that match-up, but having some guaranteed damage is key.

[urdjur]

Yeah, they don't always have time to get Confinement, that's for sure. I've also found Pithing Needle to be a useful board against them. If you Pithe the Sterling Grove, chances are they can't find the 1-2 copies of Confinement - while they waste time on handling the neddle, you can just win. Anarchy is good too of course, but a bit too narrow for most metas.

[Pich]

// Lands
8 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
3 [CFX] Hellspark Elemental
4 [PLC] Keldon Marauders
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
2 [VI] Fireblast
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Got tips ? Is relic a good SB card for this ? Like mishras ? :O

[pocari79]

//
Got tips ? Is relic a good SB card for this ? Like mishras ? :O

Only thing about mishras i don't like is that it really stunts what you can do every turn. let's say you have a mountain and a mishras and you have 3 bolt effects in your hand. If you don't draw any other mountains, you can only cast one bolt each turn and that is quite the setback in a burn deck, especially on the turn when you want to unleash all your burn for the kill.

The grim lavamancers and the relic have pretty bad synergy. I guess if you're boarding in the relics, you'd board out the lavamancers. Also, I'd only board in relics if there is a ton of dredge or vengevine madness in your metagame. Otherwise, there's really nothing to be scared of from the graveyard.

I'm not a big fan of the pyrostatic pillar. It doesn't seem like a huge deterrent against combo players as they can always play a bounce spell to get rid of it first and then combo off. The keldon marauders also never felt right when I played the deck as they always got plowed or burned or removed somehow before they got to attack or block. That guy not having haste is a huge minus against it.

[Iranon]

What exactly is the problem with having your Keldon Marauders plowed? 2 damage to them, 3 life for you, they paid 1 mana and lose the option for emergency lifegain. I'd be happy about it being plowed and wouldn't mind it getting burned; as long as it's not Terrored or something AND the opponent has nothing better to do, it has done its job.

[Gocho]

If your opponent Plow Marauders, you get almost a Lightning Helix + Duress.
Looks like a good play for me.

[pocari79]

I just found that the 2 damage i invested in the keldon marauders after they got destroyed somehow was never worth the 2 mana. People are already complaining about how magma jet sucks since it's 1R for 2 damage but the marauders are pretty much the same as magma jet except it's sorcery speed and there's no scry. I just never got the marauders to work the way I wished it did. If i wanted it to attack, i could never deal 5 damage and when i needed it to be a blocker, it was never able to block. Also when it came to sideboarding, I started to sideboard the marauders out in every matchup since they never dealt damage fast enough so at the end I just decided to cut them out totally and replace them with incinerates. At least incinerates are guarenteed 3 damage and it's an instant. I really hated tapping out when i'm playing the burn deck.

[ScatmanX]

As a goblin player: I hate to see Marauder in front of me.

[CabalTherapy]

Burn is my first Legacy.dec, but in times, I can't performe positive in a torunament.
I'm playing this list right now:

18 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
1 Shard Volley

4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Flamebreak
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sirocco

Mostly I just burn out before I can deal lethal dmg. Burn is just too weak right now.

[ThomasDowd]

has anyone tried/tested skullscorch?

I am aware that modal spells often don;t do what you want them to when you want them to(like the card that must not be named) but this spell is either a hymn to tourach or a one sided flame rift. is there any real downside other than losing some tempo on the burn of things?, but even then it seems often must counter if they have counters due to the possibility of ripping their blue cards or randomly their force of will out of their hand in which case it did its job

just a thought...

[Curby]

If we're not running Browbeat, why would we run Skullscorch? How does it fix the fundamental problems of Browbeat?

Actually, it's considerably worse since a topdecking opponent in the lategame just opts to discard and proceeds to lose nothing, setting you back by one card and two mana.

[bigbear102]

Pretty standard stuff except for the inclusion of the set of Lavamancers and Vortexes main. The only thing that looks a lil out of sorts to my eyes is 12 fetches. Seems about 4 too many. I think 8 fetches combined with the number of spells hitting the graveyard would give you plenty of Lavamancer food. With Lavamancer in the main, perhaps the Vortexes should be Flamebreak/Fallout?

If you're playing Lavamancer, 12 fetches is fine. I don't really understand your logic of playing Lavamancer and also playing sweepers. Playing dudes that stick on the board and are better the longer they are there seems pretty bad with sweepers that will kill those dudes. If I were to play Lavamancers I would definitely not be playing several sweepers main. Maybe 2 with some in the board. Sure, Vortex does not hit the grave for mancer to eat, but the extra fetches make up for it.

Repercussion is a card that I have tried before, and when it's good it's a blow-out. The problem is 9 times out of 10 if I'm not playing Flamebreak on turn 3 against goblins and zoo I'll be dead by turn 4, or too far behind to catch up. Not being able to affect the game state immediately is the reason I can't justify playing it.

As for Magma Jet, play 4 or play 0. As stated earlier, it helps to get to 3 lands for your sweeper against aggro matches, and can help you from drawing extra land in other matches. I also find that it is the only MD card that I don't feel bad about throwing at a creature, since it's only 2 damage and it can help to set up the next burn spell.

[Tacosnape]

but this spell is either a hymn to tourach or a one sided flame rift.

The key is that it's your opponent's choice.

This means late game, when you need that burn spell, it will always be a Hymn to Tourach that won't kill your opponent and won't help you against the Tarmogoyf you're trying to outrace. It will also always be the Hymn to Tourach when your opponent has emptied Wild Nacatls on the board, or refilled his hand with a Goblin Ringleader, etc.

Similarly, it will always be a burn spell against decks that are a turn away from dropping an Emrakul, or have an active Jitte or Sword of Light and Shadow, or have two Tarmogoyfs on the board and a spare STP in hand, or who have a Lightning Helix or two to steal the life right back, etc.

Essentially, assuming the player knows what they're doing, it's always the worse of the two between Hymn and 4 damage. Would you play Hymn to Tourach in Suicide Black if the opponent could counter it for 4 life?

Skullscorch is terrible. So is Browbeat. So is every current card in magic where the opponent gets the choice between the two things.

[mujadaddy]

Skullscorch is WORSE than Browbeat, because if the opponent's hand is empty, which do you think he'll chose?

Now, this thread is 36 pages for me, and I've got 40 posts per page, so I know it's more for most of you -- I don't want to read the whole thread for the Browbeat argument. However, in a straight Burn.dec, is there a bad choice from our perspective with Browbeat? The worst case scenario is that they have a bunch of life, and you're out of cards, and they take the damage. The only way that can even happen is if they've depleted their hand with counters/discard. So at worst you played [/cards]Flames of the Blood Hand[/cards], basically. Now, FotBH isn't good enough for Burn (for :r::r: or :r::1: it probably would be, but 3 cmc is for better stuff than FotBH), so that means Browbeat probably isn't either, but that doesn't make it TERRIBLE, does it?

[bigbear102]

@ mujadaddy: Read the thread. Bringing up old topics because you don't know how to use the search feature makes no sense. I agree with everything Tacosnape said, except that a Hymn that you can counter by paying 4 life would actually seem pretty hot in suicide black, especially backed by real hymns, lol.

[Darkenslight]

See, the only one I'd even remotely consider playing is Lava Blister, and that one would be in the side, and heavily meta-dependent.

[Captain Hammer]

A really solid burn deck came in second place at SCG's 5K Denver Legacy Open Tournament out of 150 players.

The list actually seems very optimal...

//Burn, by Kyle Miller

8 Mountain
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Rift Bolt
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Scalding Tarn

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Searing Blaze

I think it should be edited into the OP because it is everything a burn deck should be, and it also performed really well.

[naurthal]

There's a new, amazing card in scars:
Galvanic Blast R
Instant SoM common
Shock, if you control three artifacts 4 damage instead.
I think it should be abused. How about some kind of "ankh burn" with great furnaces, maybe cursed scrolls or isochron scepters?

[pocari79]

There's a new, amazing card in scars:
Galvanic Blast R
Instant SoM common
Shock, if you control three artifacts 4 damage instead.
I think it should be abused. How about some kind of "ankh burn" with great furnaces, maybe cursed scrolls or isochron scepters?

Problem with this card is that you have to surround your deck with a bunch of crappy artifacts which aren't as effictive as the existing burn spells that they will replace so that you can cast galvanic blast reliably.

[alderon666]

Between Galvanic Blast and Shrapnel Blast that a lot of burn with artifact affinity. So I wouldn't dismiss the idea so quickly.

Something with some cycling artifacts like Mishra's Bauble and stuff like Cursed Scroll. And maybe Sensei Divining Top? Tap Top and Shrapnel in responsel saccing it.

It's a stretch, but I've seen worst ideas work out after a little work.

[martyr]

Yeah, but his point was that you can't plug shitty burn spells into burn, because (in this case) you'd be relying on even shittier artifacts to make them good.

However, having 4 Uber Lightning Bolts and 4 Uber Incinerates gives Vial Affinity quite a bit of reach.

[Captain Hammer]

The one artifact I've always been tempted to play in burn is Ankh of Mishra. Urza's and Mishra's Baubles are nice too. Great Furnace also works. And if you're building the deck to have 3 artifacts in play at any time, 3 Mox Opal could sub in for 3 lands. That's 19 artifacts right there that function PERFECTLY in Burn, which is still unfortunately not enough to reliably have 3 in play at any one time. After that, you have to resort to lesser artifacts like Top, Scroll or the 0cc 1/1 creature.


A really solid burn deck came in second place at SCG's 5K Denver Legacy Open Tournament out of 150 players.

The list actually seems very optimal...

//Burn, by Kyle Miller

8 Mountain
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Rift Bolt
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Scalding Tarn

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Searing Blaze

I think it should be edited into the OP because it is everything a burn deck should be, and it also performed really well.

No responses to this list? :really:

Frankly, I think the list looks amazing, it was well put together, fliexible, and should be the de facto standard burn list until someone else top 2s a 150 player 5K tournament with Burn.

[evanmartyr]

It's a very good list, but I see little reason not to run Flamebreak in some number, at least in the board.

[Squirrely]

And if you're building the deck to have 3 artifacts in play at any time, 3 Mox Opal could sub in for 3 lands.

Remember, Urza's/Mishra's Baubles aren't actually meant to be in play for a period of time, so I qould guess running lands would b e better. Even if you run Ankh, Great Furnace and Darksteel Citadel.


I think a burn deck can get away with running the 8 artifact lands to support some amount of Shrapnel Blast and/or Galvanic Blast. You don't even have to run that many sucky artifacts beside that. Problem with that, however, is that you probably won't be able to run Fireblast which is one of the best finishers the deck has available.

[Psyqo]

Was reading through some foreign magic reports and a very unique burn list called the Swiss Connection took 1st in a 345 player event in Milan, Italy over the weekend.

This link is to a Google Translated version of his report:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftipo1.it%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D19406

This link is to the article where I found out about the tournament:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=785#more-785

Basically, he shoves Steppe Lynx and a boatload of fetchlands into a Burn build. Looks pretty fast, but I'd still seem wary of not having the right land to play a T1 Lynx.

[Curby]

Man, as a Stax and D&T player, I love to play against decks with 6 real land. In spite of that vulnerability, that's an impressive finish.

[sligh16]

Basically, he shoves Steppe Lynx and a boatload of fetchlands into a Burn build. Looks pretty fast, but I'd still seem wary of not having the right land to play a T1 Lynx.

Why? he runs 2 Plateau and 14 fetchs, it seems pretty probable to have a first turn Dual to play Lynx.

[Psyqo]

Why? he runs 2 Plateau and 14 fetchs, it seems pretty probable to have a first turn Dual to play Lynx.

Yeah I must have had a brainfart there. Anyways, when running burn I'd hate it to go T1 Land, Lynx, then have the opponent waste my Plateau on his turn.

It might be an irrational fear since it seemed to work just fine for him, oh well.

[RogueBuild]

1st off, my addiction has gotten the best of me... again. I last quit (for the 3rd time I think) shortly after Lorwyn was released and now I am back. Yes, the hooks are in deep and I cant seem to stay away for more then 2 years at a time.

Anyway, I have been updating my various decks on MWS and seeing how play out. This is what I have in Burn right now...

Name Qty
Mountain 19
Hellspark Elemental 4
Price of Progress 2
Fireblast 2
Flame Javelin 3
Volcanic Fallout 3
Lightning Bolt 4
Flamebreak 3
Lightning Storm 2
Magma Jet 4
Rift Bolt 4
Chain Lightning 4
Sulfuric Vortex 2
Fork 2
Smash to Smithereens 2


Sideboard
Smash to Smithereens 2
Dragon's Claw 2
Anarchy 2
Sudden Shock 3
Sulfuric Vortex 1
Volcanic Fallout 1
Flambreak 1
Price of Progress 2
FireBlast 1


I hate LavaSpike so its gone. With Bolt and Chain in the deck LS just give me spells 9-12 that I cant use when a Chalice of "Up Yours!" comes into play on turn 1 or 2. So I just as soon drop the 1 drop that has the most limited use.

I was running 4 FlameBreaks and 4 Volcanic Fallouts MD, but found it to be a bit much.

Sulfuric Vortex, I love. Always have, always will. 2 MD and 1 SB is basicly as solid for me as 4 lightning bolts MD.

2 Lightning Storms are to make use of the extra lands I draw. I used to run Siesmic Assault in those slots but storm is much better.

Claws are for mirror and some other red decks but I'm soft on them.

Forks I love. I did 20 damage on turn 4 with PoP, Fork and a fireblast. Its not always as flashy and I am soft on them, but it would have to be for something that really makes a difference.

2 Smash to Smithereens in MD is largely in advance of the influx of Arts I expect to see in the upcoming months. Sudden Shock is basicly for the appearance of DotVault that will be w/ those Arts and sometimes I find other uses.

1 Fireblast in SB is for those matches where I really do need the fastest possible kill.

2 Anarchy are clearly for all the white stuff, mostly chantments, that just destroy the deck, Leyline, Confinment, Ivory Mask, and the all mighty CoP: Red. On the upside, most of the deck running those are control and don't kill me fast enough to stop me from getting 4 lands to cast it.


The issues I'm seeing.

Its feast or famine on land. since it is both Im sure Im good on number and I am playing on MWS which is anything but random, but there seems to be something else I can do to smooth things out. Top? but would need to use fetchlands and now you are messing with the mana base as well.

I forsee the possible need of more art killing, forwhich i was considering Smash, for no other reason then after I kill a Jitt w/ it I can draw something to kill them with.

Anyway, things Im softest on are: D Claw, Fork, and Sudden Shock (however if Affinty makes a comeback this one will need to be reconsidered)

[sligh16]

Yeah I must have had a brainfart there. Anyways, when running burn I'd hate it to go T1 Land, Lynx, then have the opponent waste my Plateau on his turn.

It might be an irrational fear since it seemed to work just fine for him, oh well.

I thought the same the first time i saw the list, but actually is better for us, cause opponent actually got "time walked", losing a land drop. His list has many one drops, so having only one mountain for the first turns is not a problem. But if 2 lands are needed, going plateau-lynx may not be the correct play, i would fetch a basic mountain instead.

I've been testing this list a lot, and surprisingly have won every match against Stax and Dragon Stompy. Chalice @1 first turn is a pain, but Price of progress really shines in those MUps. Post board is easier, since a resolved sulfuric vortex is usually GG. If not, Shusher and Smash are good counters against Chalice.

Lynx is a beast, no doubt, usually dishing 6-8 damage in a game. The MU I'm not so confident is Merfolk. Sure, his report shows it as a very favorable one, but facing 8 daze effects and sometimes 2 jittes paired with good pressure is not a joke.

These days I'm gonna playtest against Merfolk a lot using Cockatrice (the program that lets you play 2 different decks in solitaire mode) and post my results. Maybe running 2 Ensnaring Bridges instead of Volcanic Fallouts is the correct move. Maybe not.

[CabalTherapy]

I've played 3-2 in a local event yesterday with that list:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Cain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
1 Shard Volley
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Rift Bolt
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Bloodstained Mire
16 Mountain

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Flamebreak
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Tremor
3 Smash to Smithereens

I actually have a 14 cards SB. Tremor must be replaced with something that makes sense.

Won against: Merfolk, Bant Survivial, Goblins
Lost against: Merfolk, Show and Tell Sneak Attack.dec

[thranmonster]

The one artifact I've always been tempted to play in burn is Ankh of Mishra. Urza's and Mishra's Baubles are nice too. Great Furnace also works. And if you're building the deck to have 3 artifacts in play at any time, 3 Mox Opal could sub in for 3 lands. That's 19 artifacts right there that function PERFECTLY in Burn, which is still unfortunately not enough to reliably have 3 in play at any one time. After that, you have to resort to lesser artifacts like Top, Scroll or the 0cc 1/1 creature.



No responses to this list? :really:

Frankly, I think the list looks amazing, it was well put together, fliexible, and should be the de facto standard burn list until someone else top 2s a 150 player 5K tournament with Burn.


I think the deck looks optimal. It's what a burn deck is looking for. I'll give it a try in this week's Lotus tournament around my neck of the woods.

[Mikeleroi]

I've played 3-2 in a local event yesterday with that list:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Cain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
1 Shard Volley
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Rift Bolt
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Bloodstained Mire
16 Mountain

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Flamebreak
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Tremor
3 Smash to Smithereens


Don't you play mass removal (flamebreak, volcanic fallout) on the main? For me it is mandatory since almost always some deck will play creatures (goblins, merfolks, elves, zoo...)

Problem with Burn.deck is simple, everything is as optimized as possible... can´t add new things, like the new bolt.

[Koby]

I'd like to revisit the purpose of REB / Pyroblast in the sideboard.

I've never found this card to be effective at all. In keeping with the burn philosophy - what does countering a blue spell gain? You're wasting a card slot to counter a counter that will most likely be targetting another burn spell. Especially recently with the influx of utility burn spells (Smash to Smithereens, Searing Blaze, etc) these slots can be better utilized for other more suitable spells/answers.

Essentially, what are you using REB for?

vs Counterbalance - they can easily counter your Blast both before and after CB hits play. Vexing Shusher allows you to ignore CB altogether. Also doubles duty against Chalice of the Void, and actively attacks.

vs Merfolk - it's a 1 mana Terror, but isn't Grim Lavamancer better here?

vs Combo - Here perhaps is the best use - countering Show and Tell, Dream Halls, Meditate, etc.

In what circumstance would REB/Pyro be better than another burn spell?

Here's my SB btw:
4 Searing Blaze
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Relic of Progenitus/Faerie Macabre/Crypt
1 Price of Progress (3 main)
1 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

[sligh16]

As a general rule, I always try to fit sideboard cards that do damage, so I never pack graveyard hate. Dredge is a tough match, but who plays dredge nowdays? :tongue:

REB is bad, except against show and tell.

[bigbear102]

I'm planning on running burn this weekend, but need Goblin Guides and Hellspark Elementals. If anybody can help me out I would greatly appreciate it. My list is located a few pages back for reference. I will probably be running 3-4 sweepers main deck, and have a beefed up gy hate package in the board to fight against Vengevines. Searing Blaze seems like it will probably be making a showing in the SB, with maybe 2 sweepers to round it up to 6 sweepers and 4 searing blaze to race merfolk/zoo/vengevine and any other random aggro out there. Peope will undoubtedly start playing some bad poison deck, so sweepers should be gold.

Again, if anybody can get me some Hellsparks or Goblin Guides PM me, we need to figure it out by like tomorrow so I can get them in time. I'll be back later to put up my full list and discuss the artifact builds that have been mentioned.

[bigbear102]

Here's my list

// Lands
12 [AN] Mountain
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [R] Taiga
1 [JGC] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [GTW] Hellspark Elemental

// Spells
2 [DS] Flamebreak
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [DD2] Fireblast
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
2 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Flamebreak
SB: 3 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [WWK] Searing Blaze

Everybody looking for a good artifact list should stay away from the Baubles. They make you skimp on land and then give you horrible mulligan decisions. Sensei's Dinining Top is probably better than the Baubles. Playing Artifact land is probably your best bet, but Darksteel Citadel sucks in burn, and Great Furnace opens up their Wastelands. The other problem with the whole Galvanic Blast idea is that you would have to keep these artifacts on the board, which completely goes against the Bauble idea, and makes Shrapnel Blast a bit of a conflict of interest, especially if you are playing Mox Opal, which was mentioned earlier. Also, it is possible for your opponent to turn Galvanic Blast into a Shock with a Disenchant. The idea makes an already iffy burn deck into a more disruptable more shaky deck. Good luck if you can make it work, but adding artifacts seems weak to me.

On another note, has anybody tested extensively against Vengevine Survival? Please let me know if you have and what your experiences have been.

[Koby]

I've been playing this list recently, with good results.

8 mountain
12 fetch

4 grim lavamancer
4 goblin guide
3 keldon marauder
2 hellspark elemental

16 bolts
4 fireblast
4 sulfuric vortex
3 price of progress

[CabalTherapy]

I've been playing this list recently, with good results.

8 mountain
12 fetch

4 grim lavamancer
4 goblin guide
3 keldon marauder
2 hellspark elemental

16 bolts
4 fireblast
4 sulfuric vortex
3 price of progress

I don't like fetchlands in this deck, because you're about to lose the dmg-race against zoo and other aggro.decs.
Hellspark Elemental ist maybe (actually) the best creature in this deck. So run it 4 off.
And also I'm still not sure about the Vortex main. Obviously it is quite good, but e.g. yesterday I played 5 rounds with burn
(without vorext) and never thought:"Shit, where's the Vortex?"

[Gocho]

I've been playing this list recently, with good results.

8 mountain
12 fetch

4 grim lavamancer
4 goblin guide
3 keldon marauder
2 hellspark elemental

16 bolts
4 fireblast
4 sulfuric vortex
3 price of progress

I make Top8 yesterday at a 33 persons tournament with a similar list, -2 Hellspark +1 Keldon Marauder +1 Price of Progress. 12 Fetch are necessary to use the Lavamancers.

I lose to Merfolks (only 2 lands in 7 turns first game and only 1 land in 8 turns second game) and Enchantress (no board for T3 Solitary Confinement). At Top8 I face Painter-Thopter-CB- Jace control, playing COP: Red in his SB :(

So, I want to try some card for the "damage can't be prevented" effect and put in the Vortex slot in this games.
Did someone tested Leyline of Punishment vs Everlasting Torment for this purpose?
Krosan Grip or Anarchy are another option, but the Enchantments looks better.

[bigbear102]

I always like adding 1 Taiga with your fetches to grab K. Grip, it handles so many things. I guess Leyline would be better than Torment though, if you want a 4of.

Also, Hellspark should be 4 of, it's so good against blue decks. I personally don't like Marauders, I'd rather play a few sweepers to deal with all of their critters rather than just a chump blocker.

[urdjur]

I'd like to revisit the purpose of REB / Pyroblast in the sideboard.

I've never found this card to be effective at all. In keeping with the burn philosophy - what does countering a blue spell gain? You're wasting a card slot to counter a counter that will most likely be targetting another burn spell.
[...]
In what circumstance would REB/Pyro be better than another burn spell?

Countering their counter for R and a card is actually very good. Any blue deck will use their counters to counter your most efficient (and usually last, or second last) Burn spell (Fireblast, PoP etc.) OR counter something more important such as a SB bomb of some sort. FoWing a Fireblast is a pretty good deal for them. If you can cover that big burn with REB, it essentially means that REB deals 4 damage for 1 mana and a card - an extremely efficient burn spell.

So against anything with 8+ counters (i.e. anything blue), REB reads "4 damage to target player" at the very least. It also gives you the versatility against opposing key spells like Choke, Counterbalance, Show and Tell, Meditate etc. You could view it as a Smash to Smithereens that hates on blue instead of artifacts.


As a general rule, I always try to fit sideboard cards that do damage, so I never pack graveyard hate.

Relic of Progenitus is much like a Burn spell with a GY hate effect. Since you draw another card off it, think of it as a Burn spell costing an extra 2 for the anti-GY effect. As long as your boardings are more relevant than a generic burn spell, I've found that you can safely board 6-7 non-damaging spells. It's important that you have some damaging spells in the board though, to better tweak your deck for games 2-3.

Btw, I agree on the suckiness of artifact builds, and that you should add Taiga if you're running fetches anyway. On the whole though, I'm with Cabal. I don't think fetches add enough on the whole (Grip, blaze, lavamancer) to be considered superior to the resilience of mono red straight Mountains.

Also, why aren't you guys discussing Ratchet Bomb? It's like the best thing that's happened to Burn's sideboard in quite some time.

[Koby]

If you can cover that big burn with REB, it essentially means that REB deals 4 damage for 1 mana and a card - an extremely efficient burn spell.


No - it doesn't mean that. It mean that you're sacrificing 2 mountain, using a card, and then using REB to protect it - 4 cards to deal 4 damage vs their 1 or 2 cards. I would rather play Magma Jet than any REB - and I don't even play Magma Jet (too slow). If you're worried about spells being countered - play Vexing Shusher. You still tax your spells an extra red mana; but it doesn't cost you an extra card each time. REB is just trash if you're hoping to push through damage.



You could view it as a Smash to Smithereens that hates on blue instead of artifacts.


That would be Sirocco and Parch - these cards deal damage.

[CabalTherapy]

Red Elemental Blast is probably the SB card in this deck.
I currently play 5 Blasts in the SB.

Destroying a Rhox War Monk is extremly important. Which burn-spell does 4 damage to a creature
(except Fireblast)? None?
Countering a 2nd turn Stifle, that targets a Dreadnought. The blasts are needed in the SB.
It can even crushing opponents strategy (Show and Tell, like it was said before, counter a Brainstorm, destroying a merfolk, that wears Jitte,...).

It is not about countering their counter. It is about flexibility.

[Gocho]

I always like adding 1 Taiga with your fetches to grab K. Grip, it handles so many things. I guess Leyline would be better than Torment though, if you want a 4of.

Also, Hellspark should be 4 of, it's so good against blue decks. I personally don't like Marauders, I'd rather play a few sweepers to deal with all of their critters rather than just a chump blocker.

I like Marauders a lot. It makes 5 vs control, bought me time when I need plus making 2 damage. When the opponent Swords them it's almost a Lightning Helix, that cost he a card. Hellspark is great, but I need the slot to play Sulfuric Vortex maindeck. Them gain many games that would be lost vs gaining life or discard.

Leyline is very good because you don't pay it, but gives the opponent a chance to break it in his first turns, when you don't need it. Torment is cheaper, so you can play it with a Lightning + Fireblast to kill the opponent and he lose without options to search the removal. I must test both anyways.

[Koby]

Red Elemental Blast is probably the SB card in this deck.
I currently play 5 Blasts in the SB.

Destroying a Rhox War Monk is extremly important. Which burn-spell does 4 damage to a creature
(except Fireblast)? None?
Countering a 2nd turn Stifle, that targets a Dreadnought. The blasts are needed in the SB.
It can even crushing opponents strategy (Show and Tell, like it was said before, counter a Brainstorm, destroying a merfolk, that wears Jitte,...).

It is not about countering their counter. It is about flexibility.

Flame Slash
Flame Javelin
Parch
Reckless Abandon
Shall I continue? These are suboptimal cards, just as REB and Pyroblast are. If you're worried about RWM, then play with Sulfuric Vortex and ignore the 3/x attacker.

Smash to Smithereens destroys Dreadnought and deal damage to it's owner. It also trades their 2 cards for 1 of yours, and deals 3 damage.

Countering Brainstorm is a marginal call at best. Like I stated previously, Show and Tell and Dream Halls are the only two spells that you really worry about it.

Burn is not the control deck. Be proactive, not reactive.

[Bigface]

It also counters Counterbalance, which pretty much rapes this deck once an opponent gets CounterTop online. Not a secondary fact.

[sligh16]

It also counters Counterbalance, which pretty much rapes this deck once an opponent gets CounterTop online. Not a secondary fact.

Or, you can play vexing shusher.

[Bigface]

Paying every single spell you play for one R more? I thought this deck had to be explosive to win. Also, Shusher dies to creature removal.

Anyway, CB and CotV are still major problems for this deck. How do you solve them without going G for K.Grip? Shusher seems simply too slow.

[Mizeri]

If they're playing counterbalance, your one reb won't get thru their fistful of blue. Boseiju and siroco actually does something. How come everyone is sideboarding vortex? Imo, its mainboard for stealing those games where jitte would kill you. Then you can get to game 2 and actually win.

[urdjur]

Look, if you're playing against counters, you *WILL* be trading a burn spell against one or more counters. The blue player will try not to counter your bolts (since you have 16 of them) and go for something bigger. With REB, you're essentially redirecting that counter to a 1 mana spell, much like he had countered Chain Lightning or some such instead. That small improvement alone isn't enough to merit REB a SB slot - it's the flexibility that matters. Vexing Shusher is better at handling Counterbalance specifically, but not as versatile. You could run both as part of a blue hate suite - both are way better than sirocco or boseiju.

I think Ratchet Bomb is a strong answer to CounterTop too - and many other things as well. I've run Shushers alongside REBs before, but I'm thinking of cutting the shushers in favor of more Ratchet Bombs (used to be Powder Kegs before).

Vortex is good both main or side really. If you have room for it, including extra copies in the side can be good to tweak your deck.

[Gocho]

Ratchet Bomb looks promising because hits a lot of permanents that Burn can't answer. And works vs random SB hate that crush you:
Counterbalance
Solitary Confinement
COP: Red
Chill
Warmth

I must test it.

[popiezhius]

Boseiju and siroco actually does something.
Sirocco does something only against solidarity. There are no other decks, which are holding hands full of blue instants.

[pocari79]

Sirocco does something only against solidarity. There are no other decks, which are holding hands full of blue instants.

Landstill and countertop usually have quite a few blue instants in their hand. Plus their hand doesn't need to be all instants. Even 2 to 3 blue instants will hurt as that's 8-12 damage or they discard their counterspells. Either way, they're going to be either really low on life or have no protection for all the spells you're going to fling at them. Win-win.

[eq.firemind]

Landstill and countertop usually have quite a few blue instants in their hand. Plus their hand doesn't need to be all instants. Even 2 to 3 blue instants will hurt as that's 8-12 damage or they discard their counterspells. Either way, they're going to be either really low on life or have no protection for all the spells you're going to fling at them. Win-win.
Or they respond with Brainstorm to fix their hand and you just lost 2 mana and 1 card.
There were some umber of discussions about this card and they all ended with "too situational and random" conclusion.

[pocari79]

Or they respond with Brainstorm to fix their hand and you just lost 2 mana and 1 card.
There were some umber of discussions about this card and they all ended with "too situational and random" conclusion.

even if they manage to fix their hand with brainstorm and hide all their instants on top of their library, that means that on your turn, you can start to unleash your critical spells like price of progress, sulfuric vortex, lavamancers, or guides knowing that they don't have counterspells in hand.

[popiezhius]

Landstill and countertop usually have quite a few blue instants in their hand. Plus their hand doesn't need to be all instants. Even 2 to 3 blue instants will hurt as that's 8-12 damage or they discard their counterspells. Either way, they're going to be either really low on life or have no protection for all the spells you're going to fling at them. Win-win.

It would be very nice, if You share Your testing experience (e.g. what average damage sirocco deals to a blue player), instead of justifying a card which everyone considers bad.

[pocari79]

It would be very nice, if You share Your testing experience (e.g. what average damage sirocco deals to a blue player), instead of justifying a card which everyone considers bad.

Sure. the thing with sirocco is that it does different things depending on what the board situation is and depends on how much life the opponent is at when you're casting the spell. Usually if possible, i would play sirocco w/ boseiju as my first played spell against a blue deck just to see their hand and what kind of choice they will make. this is the best part about this card as if they have 2 or more blue instants in their hand, they usually choose between taking all the damage or discarding counterspells and taking damage as well. If they decide to take all the damage, you can just play a 2nd sirocco and then they'll be forced to discard this time around or die. If they decide to discard spells, you can just play your spells without fear.

One thing I want to note, I would never side in only sirocco. I'm always siding in boseiju and sirocco as in the early game, boseiju and sirocco is very deadly and in the late game, if i topdeck a sirocco and they're low on life but have lots of cards, they're pretty much forced to discard and then both you and the opponent are relying on topdecking which makes it a bit more fair for the burn deck.

[Masa88]

I do hope that you realize that Sirocco is not so hot card against today's meta. It was a powerful sideboard card against solidarity, but now when meta is full of fish, Bant aggro that may not have so much counterspells in hand. Besides, as you stated, Sirocco needs a crappy card Boseiju to work propely. Why do I say it's crappy? Because it comes into play tapped, doesn't produce red mana, slows you down greatly, hurts you with every activation, makes Price of progress more symmetrical, it's perfect wasteland target, can only be used in magma jet (which will make it symmetrical) or price of progress (which will make you take 4 damage at least, and Flame rift is considered bad so why not this? Your opponent will likely take same or 2 more...) and you insist that it's good? In comparison, can you tell which group of cards is bigger (assuming that they are used in legacy):

Blue instants VS. Blue instants, sorceries, creatures, artifacts, creatures and planeswalkers

Answer should be trivial, as it's the right side. REB can deal with the Right side as Sirocco only the left side...

Let's take an game example (which I believe can be realistic) against merfolk:

Your hand: Sirocco

your board: 2x Mountain, Boseiju

your lifetotal: 10

opponents hand: 3 card

opponents board: 2x Silvergill adept, Merrow Reejerey, 3 Islands

Opponents lifetotal: 3

What will you do? What if Sirocco would be REB, what would you do then? (Remember, REB can deal with permanents on the table!)

Besides, I can picture more situations where REB is more useful than Sirocco (because Sirocco is actually discard spell: what can you do if opponent topdecks Force of Will next turn if you didin’t kill him?

Your example requires 2 mountain, 2 boseiju or an idiot of an opponent. If they have counterbalance on the battlefield, they won’t care if you cast Sirocco or not (well, it needs him to be ≥4 life and you must have Fireblast for them to care about FoW). And if you won’t kill them that turn, they will probably kill you at their next turn.

If you mean that you’ll be casting it on second turn, it means that you must have Boseiju in starting hand. This will mean that you want 4 of them in the deck to make sure you have it. Which is way too much of a suicide for my taste. Besides, playing it as an first spell is not so cool, because they protects their FoWs with brainstorm or just let them get discarded. What will you do AFTER they have drawn an another FoW? Rely on that you just draw another Sirocco to find it out? Usually after Sirocco you don’t have much mana to play other spells, so you need to wait on next turn. Which is too much time given for them to find that required counter.

In other words, your reasoning is not enough to prove Sirocco worthy…

Anyways, I’ve been playing burn for quite a long time now, and I like this deck. And here’s the list I play with (Side once again needs improvement, but Rachet bombs will come in as soon as I get them):


Maindeck:

19 Mountain

4 Keldon Marauders
3 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Shard Volley

4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress

3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Sulfuric Vortex

3 Fireblast


Sideboard:

3 REB
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Shattering Spree


So the next changes should be -3 Powder Keg -2 Vexing shisher +3-4 Ratchet Bomb +1 Relic of Progenitus +0-1 Price of Progress/Sulfuric Vortex

For the ones that has been playing with more creatures: How well your lists fare in tournaments? Because I find creatures as "burn spells that can be countered with any kind of removal"

[mchainmail]

[QUOTE=Masa88;493335

Your example requires 2 mountain, 2 boseiju or an idiot of an opponent[/QUOTE]

It would take an idiot of an opponent to let you have 2 Boseiju in play.

[Masa88]

D'Oh! :D Oh well that only makes Boseiju even worse. Even if it wouldn't be legendary land, you obviously mulligan this opening 7:

Boseiju, L. Bolt, Lava spike, Mountain, Chain lightning, Boseiju, Sirocco

Did anyone see what went wrong? Anyways, that would be keepable if Boseiju's would be mountains. Or even if one boseiju would be mountain...

One thing acrossed into my mind, if you play both Boseiju and Sirocco, what kind of sideboard would you have? Will you have boseijus being useless in the main, or do you side them in against blue player? If so, what do you sacrifice for Boseijus?

[CabalTherapy]

Boseiju


This card is not good enough to support burn. I'm a experienced burn player and this land is simply too weak.
If you are afraid of counter, then play RED or PyroB.

[Koby]

Or play Vexing Shusher, which is better than both and can deal damage/block Goyfs.

[Mikeleroi]

Boseiju? Are you kidding, right?

Legendary, CIPT, have to pay 2 lifes... and gives 1 !! Your 16 bolts can`t be casted, flamebreak can´t be casted... can´t be sacrified with fireblast, and you will take 2 with PoP.

If blue is giving problems, REB or Pyroblast is the solution (and maybe sirocco).

[Sims]

Or play Vexing Shusher, which is better than both and can deal damage/block Goyfs.

If I were going to run an Anti-Blue, I'd rather run something that doesn't give their removal targets. And even then I'm not sure that Anti-Blue is necessary.

[pocari79]

D'Oh! :D Oh well that only makes Boseiju even worse. Even if it wouldn't be legendary land, you obviously mulligan this opening 7:

Boseiju, L. Bolt, Lava spike, Mountain, Chain lightning, Boseiju, Sirocco

Did anyone see what went wrong? Anyways, that would be keepable if Boseiju's would be mountains. Or even if one boseiju would be mountain...

One thing acrossed into my mind, if you play both Boseiju and Sirocco, what kind of sideboard would you have? Will you have boseijus being useless in the main, or do you side them in against blue player? If so, what do you sacrifice for Boseijus?

I have never said that it was good to sideboard in sirocco against merfolk. I have never sideboarded sirocco against merfolk because 1. it doesn't do anything for the board and 2. they don't play enough instants to justify it. The only matchups I board sirocco is in against control decks like landstill, dreadstill and countertop where they play as many counterspells as I play burn spells.

Whenever I board in siroccos and boseijus, I always take out the 4 lava spikes along with 2 other cards depending on the matchup so I actually go up to 22 land post board to support all the extra 2CC spells.

My sideboard looks like this:

3x Searing Blaze
3x Flamebreak
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3x Sirocco

[Masa88]

Actually, if you definitely need to side Sirocco against Landstill, you're doing something wrong. I've never lost against Landstill with burn, not even a single game (even if they got Cunning wish for Pulse of the Fields in sideboard). And that's because Burn's strategy totally annihiliates Landstill, because they have way too many answers for permanents, which we don't have and way too few counterspells just to counter everything what we throw at them.

Counterbalanceless Dreadstill is quite even matchup, but it's improved with siding shattering spree as they can't counter every single one of them. smash to smithereens can be countered with a single card, however.

Countertop is the hardest of those 3, and it really needs some luck to be able to win. Once they have countertop softlock on, you just need to fill your hand with gas and sacrifice some bolts to resolve bigger bombs. And of course, them not having counterspells in hand. This is hard, but not totally unwinnable. If they have counterbalance in table with Top, what Sirocco will do after resolving? They definitely discard FoW and other blue instants because they have CB for every other spells you have. So Sirocco is just a discard spell. And believe me, discard isn't something you want to do under pressure, it's damage you want

[CabalTherapy]

My sideboard looks like this:

3x Searing Blaze
3x Flamebreak
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3x Sirocco

This doesn't look good.
Boseiju is just a bad card for this deck. Throw him out.
Flamebreak is worse than Volcanic Fallout, because you can burn Merfolk away easily.
You must just be careful with the lords and vialaction.

Add Blasts.

[1maarten1]

Ok I just found this list:

2 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
4 Goblin Guide
4 Fireblast
4 Rift Bolt
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
Sideboard (15)
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Volcanic Fallout
4 Searing Blaze
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Smash to Smithereens

It came in first in a 347 Player tournament in Milan. ( Italy)

Looks quite standard to me, except for the white splash with as only splash target steppe lynx. Thoughts?

Source: http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=863

[grindst0ne]

Ok I just found this list:

(...)

It came in first in a 347 Player tournament in Milan. ( Italy)

Looks quite standard to me, except for the white splash with as only splash target steppe lynx. Thoughts?

Source: http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=863





Was reading through some foreign magic reports and a very unique burn list called the Swiss Connection took 1st in a 345 player event in Milan, Italy over the weekend.

This link is to a Google Translated version of his report:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftipo1.it%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D19406

This link is to the article where I found out about the tournament:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=785#more-785

Basically, he shoves Steppe Lynx and a boatload of fetchlands into a Burn build. Looks pretty fast, but I'd still seem wary of not having the right land to play a T1 Lynx.

Sigh

[Sevryn]

Sligh fixed

[Cabal]

Ok I just found this list:

(...)

It came in first in a 347 Player tournament in Milan. ( Italy)

Looks quite standard to me, except for the white splash with as only splash target steppe lynx. Thoughts?

Source: http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=863


I've tested this list one week ago and tomorrow i'll test it again in a legacy tournment.

Even it looks a little bit standard list, it's really fast, easily turn 3 win.

You play Lynx frequently on turn 1, if plateau is not in your oppening hand, you always have at least one fetch land to go and get it.

So far, the best burn list I've ever seen and played.

[paeng4983]

I've tested this list one week ago and tomorrow i'll test it again in a legacy tournment.

Even it looks a little bit standard list, it's really fast, easily turn 3 win.

You play Lynx frequently on turn 1, if plateau is not in your oppening hand, you always have at least one fetch land to go and get it.

So far, the best burn list I've ever seen and played.

the same list, i think or if not 95% similarity, was used here and landed 2nd out of 35 to 40 players i think 3-4weeks ago.
i've seen this deck and it really gives a solid punch turn by turn.

[tgDC$]

Used Patrick Sullivan's mono red version to a 1st place finish in Pasadena, CA for a Mox Ruby. 6 rounds then cut to top 8

4x Goblin Guide

4x Grim Lavamancer

4x Figure of Destiny

4x Lightning Bolt

4x Chain Lightning

4x Lava Spike

4x Flame Rift

4x Price of Progress

4x Rift Bolt

4x Fireblast

8x Mountain

3x Scalding Tarn

3x Wooded Foothills

3x Bloodstained Mire

3x Arid Mesa

Sideboard:

4x Pyrostatic Pillar

4x Vexing Shusher

4x Searing Blaze

3x Faerie Macabre



Round 1 UBw Merfolk 2-1

Round 2 Mono Blue Merfolk 2-0

Round 3 Dragon Stompy 0-2

Round 4 Natural Order Elves 2-1

Round 5 Ub Merfolk 2-1

Round 6 Gbw Ooze/Survival ID

Quarters
Ub Merfolk rematch 2-0

Semis
Dragon Stompy rematch 2-1

Finals
Gbw Ooze/Survival 2-1

[Mr. Safety]

I just came across this thread, and I have a few questions for the experienced burn players:

1) Is there a significant reason to avoid Shrapnel Blast?

2) Is Reckless Abandon worth any slots considering a deck using Spark Elemental, Hellspark Elemental, and Keldon Marauders?

3) How many Barbarian Rings should be used, if any?

Thanks for the input!

[pocari79]

I just came across this thread, and I have a few questions for the experienced burn players:

1) Is there a significant reason to avoid Shrapnel Blast?

2) Is Reckless Abandon worth any slots considering a deck using Spark Elemental, Hellspark Elemental, and Keldon Marauders?

3) How many Barbarian Rings should be used, if any?

Thanks for the input!

1. It's very hard to support shrapnel blast because what burn do you want to take out for artifacts? Just 4 of the red artifact land is not enough since you can't fetch them. and replacing a bolt with something like a cursed scroll or some other artifact seems like a step backwards. Also, if you don't have any artifacts and you topdeck the shrapnel blast, you just gave yourself a dead draw.

2. If you are playing a burn deck with all 3 of those types of creatures, I supposed reckless abandon wouldn't be that bad but I wouldn't run 4 of it since if you don't have any creatures on board and you topdeck it, it's another dead draw. The burn deck already doesn't have any card advantage and giving yourself dead draws really doesn't help.

3. Personally I use 1 and everytime I draw it, it's been great. However, if you're playing with 4 lavamancers in the deck, you're probably never going to activate the barbarian ring. So it really depends on your decklist.

[conankudo4]

2 ideas I've been playing with:

1: 2 Sensei's Divining Top Maindeck. One of the late game flaws against burn is that once you run out of burn spells in your hand, your only real way of winning is constantly topdeck burn and basically get lucky. I've found that top is a great solution to this:

X turn, 4 mana.

Draw a Top.

Play Top for 1 mana.

Tap Top, look at the top three cards of deck, put burn spell on top.

Pay 1 mana, draw burn spell, put Top on the top of the deck.

Play burn spell for 1-2 mana.




This way, it reduces the likelihood of consistently top-decking mana you don't need and forcing burns spells out to win the game, with only 3-4 mana needed to pull this combo off. 2 seems to be the ideal number to have in, so that they don't get in the way, but can be drawn efficiently.



2: Runeflare Trap in the Sideboard.

This is something I found that might be good against blue decks in general due to the worldwide love of brainstorm ( including decks that splash blue just for that and Force).

This card can be dropped down to the mana cost of a lightning bolt whenever the opponent uses brainstorm, jace tms, standstill, and cause ridiculous amounts of damage ( if an opponent used brainstorm while having 4 cards in hand, and you used runeflare trap afterwords, then you can deal 5 damage to them for 1 mana. Another example would be casting X burn spell, they have standstill activate, counter that spell, and then use runeflare trap for massive damage in one go).

Another thing I've been considering to go with it is Browbeat in the sideboard against non-blue decks. Have browbeat go off, they either:

take 5 damage (because you ask if they take the damage or not, and then say who will be picking up cards after that)

You draw three cards

they draw three cards, and then you cast runeflare trap, causing them to take 3 + X damage.

However, I'm not as likely to consider this, since it means that your opponent gains card advantage, and this smells like magical christmas land-territory in terms of it working.

[ThomasDowd]

the thing about runeflare trap is it checks their hand size after the spell resolves, you can't just <insert spell here> in between a spells resolution. so you will still only see the same amount of cards from when they cast it since it just replaces itself.

granted you will probably still hit them for 3+ damage, but still takes precious slots from the sideboard.

[conankudo4]

the thing about runeflare trap is it checks their hand size after the spell resolves, you can't just <insert spell here> in between a spells resolution. so you will still only see the same amount of cards from when they cast it since it just replaces itself.

granted you will probably still hit them for 3+ damage, but still takes precious slots from the sideboard.

I'm aware of this detail. I still think it's fine. Assuming they don't counter the spell with one of the cards they're dumping out to reduce damage, it's still going to be about 3 or more damage. And they would be dumping out spells that they may have wanted to save for later prematurely to avoid potentially lethal damage. Plus timing isn't an issue since even if a deck is aware of this, they're still going to brainstorm/jace/standstill anyways, since most blue decks rely on heavy card advantage. And blue-splash decks are about the only ones who could just sideboard out their brainstorm, leaving them withlacking card advantage, and making them unable to get their dreadnought/survival/ whatever engine going before you blow their face in with burn spells.

[Nessaja]

( if an opponent used brainstorm while having 4 cards in hand, and you used runeflare trap afterwords, then you can deal 5 damage to them for 1 mana.).
If you are aware you are also aware that this does not work. It will still deal 4 damage.


take 5 damage (because you ask if they take the damage or not, and then say who will be picking up cards after that)
That's cheating. Targetting is part of casting the spell.

[conankudo4]

If you are aware you are also aware that this does not work. It will still deal 4 damage.

Yes. 4 damage for one mana is fine.




That's cheating. Targetting is part of casting the spell.



Not in this case, I don't think.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=234712

The states that you ask first if anyone would be willing to take 5 damage to cancel the "target player draws three cards", and then you have target player draw three cards. The targeting doesn't apply until after they decide to cancel or not.

[Tammit67]

Declaring targets is part of putting the spell on the stack. You don't get to decide who draws once the decision is in...

[Ubiquitrips]

I had the opportunity to hit up a Legacy tournament yesterday. I decided to play my mostly finished Burn deck to see what I may need to change. It is only really missing a few cards. I ended up going 1 - 3 but the experience was worth it as I was able to get enough info on the mainboard to finalize the direction I want to go.

Deck List

20x Mountain

4x Keldon Marauders
2x Goblin Guide
2x Mogg Fanatic

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Price of Progress
3x Fireblast
3x Magma Jet
3x Sulfuric Vortex
3x Flamebreak

SB
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Gaea's Blessing (this was because of Solidarity / Jace, though I just reread Jace and he exiles, woops)
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Pyrostatic Pillar

Round 1 vs Bwg Rock

This deck was similar to the one I wanted to make so I felt fairly confidant that burn could win. Didn't quite turn out as expected.

Game 1: Burn face and drop a sulfuric vortex to negate his jitte.
No Sideboards

Game 2: Burn face, get within one turn of winning but I am staring down a Goyf / Knight of the Reliquary / Qasali Pridemage. Everything is looking fine until he casts Armageddon, what.

Game 3: Burn face, and one turn away from winning. He has a fresh Baneslayer out and I am not too worried as I have lethal in hand. Unfortunately he Vindicates one of my land and I no longer have enough mana for lethal. Only hope was to top deck Price of Progress after he swings in with a Jitte'd Baneslayer, didn't turn out that way.

0 - 1

Round 2 vs Goblins

Game 1: Decent game but cannot keep up with Vials and Ringleaders. Sided out my Price of Progress as I didn't see a non basic.
No Sides
Game 2: Kept a one land hand that would have been amazing with a second land. Unfortunately it took 3 turns to get land 2 and he had a Rishdan Port out for my hand full of sorceries.

0 - 2

Round 3 vs Faeries

Game 1 & 2: Burn face via bolts and Keldon Marauders. He doesn't have any beef or enough threats to deal with me.

1 - 2

Round 4 vs ANT

Game 1: Mediocre hand, he wins turn 3. My only real hope is Pyrostatic Pillar in the board.
-2 Mogg Fanatic , -1 Magma Jet , +3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Game 2: Get a good hand w/ guide + 2x marauders. As it turns out this is great because he Empty the Warrens for 12 on turn 2. I am able to fend him off and get him to 5 with a Fireblast in hand. Fortunately for me he has a City of Brass out and does the one damage I need. He had a Silence in hand but after discussing it we weren't sure he could have gone off without tapping the City.

At this point in the game I am told Pyrostatic Pillar has a CMC of 2 and I could have played the one in my hand rather that getting it duressed. Duly noted. In my head it was 3 just like Sulfuric Vortex. Oh well, I won that game anyway.

Game 3: Another fantastic hand for me. On the draw, open with Guide. He gets an Empty the Warrens for 14 on turn 2. I am mostly calm because he completely expended himself and I had a Flamebreak in hand. I just needed to last two turns. Turn two play Pyrostatic Pillar to shut out any more shenanigans. His turn three he draws and swings for 13, I take it. Feeling pretty good, but apparently he topped a Silence and shuts me out of my sorcery speed Flamebreak. Game over.

1 - 3

Meta (from what I remember)
2x Hypergenesis
1x Zoo
2x Goblins
2x Sneak Show
1x Countertop
1x UG Madness
1x Bgw Rock
1x ANT
1x Faeries
1x Merfolk
1x Solidarity


I have decided that my list probably needs the following changes:

MD

+2 Goblin Guide
+3 Volcanic Fallout

-2 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Flamebreak
-1 Land (Maybe)
-X Magma Jet

SB
-2 Red Elemental Blast
-2 Pyroblast
-3 Tormod's Crypt
+3 Relic of Progenetis
+4 Vexing Shusher

It was definitely a fun deck to play. It is pretty much impossible to have a bad time playing burn. I did find out I have no idea how to Sideboard playing Burn but that is a work in progress. I think I am going to dump the Pyroblast / REB for Vexing Shushers.

Is there any merit to replacing Pyrostatic Pillar with Mindbreak Trap in the SB? They both seem to be fighting the same decks and sometimes Pyrostatic Pillar just cannot be brought online in time.

I also cannot part with Flamebreak / Volcanic Fallouts. Sometimes I just don't think it is possible to race without sweepers.

[Mr. Safety]

1. It's very hard to support shrapnel blast because what burn do you want to take out for artifacts? Just 4 of the red artifact land is not enough since you can't fetch them. and replacing a bolt with something like a cursed scroll or some other artifact seems like a step backwards. Also, if you don't have any artifacts and you topdeck the shrapnel blast, you just gave yourself a dead draw.

2. If you are playing a burn deck with all 3 of those types of creatures, I supposed reckless abandon wouldn't be that bad but I wouldn't run 4 of it since if you don't have any creatures on board and you topdeck it, it's another dead draw. The burn deck already doesn't have any card advantage and giving yourself dead draws really doesn't help.

3. Personally I use 1 and everytime I draw it, it's been great. However, if you're playing with 4 lavamancers in the deck, you're probably never going to activate the barbarian ring. So it really depends on your decklist.

1) I am also utilizing Sensei's Divining Top x1 and Pyrite Spellbomb x1 to get my artifact count up to 6. I've played with 4 Spellbombs, and I've found 2 added artifacts are enough to make your Shrapnel Blasts worth playing.

2) Yes, I'm playing a burn deck with all 3 of those creatures. I am only using 2 Reckless Abandons ATM. 4 was a bucket 'o fail, but 2 seems about right, especially with the unearth from Hellspark allowing late game top-decks of RA to really shine.

3) Currently using 2 Barbarian Rings, and no Grim Lavamancers. I'm debating using Cursed Scroll x2 (ATM, using Magus of the Scroll)

[pocari79]

1) I am also utilizing Sensei's Divining Top x1 and Pyrite Spellbomb x1 to get my artifact count up to 6. I've played with 4 Spellbombs, and I've found 2 added artifacts are enough to make your Shrapnel Blasts worth playing.

2) Yes, I'm playing a burn deck with all 3 of those creatures. I am only using 2 Reckless Abandons ATM. 4 was a bucket 'o fail, but 2 seems about right, especially with the unearth from Hellspark allowing late game top-decks of RA to really shine.

3) Currently using 2 Barbarian Rings, and no Grim Lavamancers. I'm debating using Cursed Scroll x2 (ATM, using Magus of the Scroll)

If you find that you like the shrapnel blasts with the artifacts you chose that's great. I just want to note that since you are replacing bolts with artifacts and the blasts, you're essentially paying 3 mana to deal 5 damage using 2 cards. If you just play the bolts normally, you'd deal 6 damage with 2 cards and use up 2-3 mana. Just something to think about.

I really don't like cursed scroll but that may be that in my environment, all the opponent's creatures are all 3+ toughness and paying 3 mana to deal 2 damage just doesn't seem like a good move. I suppose if you play in an environment with a lot of merfolk, cursed scroll will be pretty amazing.

[Jin15]

Here's my Burn list that I've been playing for the past 3 months or so. The list was built specifically to minimize the opponent's ability to interact with the deck in order to create virtual card advantage. With this in mind there are no non-land cards main deck that do not do guarantee direct damage on their own if they are not countered. While my list does play a touch slower than most lists (it wins on turn 4 or 5 on average, assuming nothing gets countered, but can win turn 3 on rare occasions) it was built with an emphasis on resiliency and inevitability rather than speed. All the deck really has to do to win is resolve 6 to 8 spells in just about any combination (7 on average).
That said, here's the list...

[4 Creatures]
4 Keldon Marauders

[3 Enchantments]
3 Sulfuric Vortex

[33 Spells]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
2 Incinerate
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress

[20 Lands]
3 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain

------------
Sideboard
------------
3 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroblast
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Price of Progress



So far out of the 3 local tournaments I've played in (30-40 person on average) it's taken me to Top 4 once and Top 8 once and I've been quite pleased with it all around :)

[Mr. Safety]

If you find that you like the shrapnel blasts with the artifacts you chose that's great. I just want to note that since you are replacing bolts with artifacts and the blasts, you're essentially paying 3 mana to deal 5 damage using 2 cards. If you just play the bolts normally, you'd deal 6 damage with 2 cards and use up 2-3 mana. Just something to think about.

I really don't like cursed scroll but that may be that in my environment, all the opponent's creatures are all 3+ toughness and paying 3 mana to deal 2 damage just doesn't seem like a good move. I suppose if you play in an environment with a lot of merfolk, cursed scroll will be pretty amazing.

What I really need is probably 2x Grim Lavamancer. Graveyard fills QUICK, feeding the guy indefinately. He runs slightly counter to Barbarian Ring, but he's repeatable, where BR is a one shot deal.

Shrapnel Blast & Reckless Abandon make for hard decisions on my opponent. I may only have 1 card in hand, but even if they are at 4 life, they are in trouble.

When you say 'replacing bolts' I assume you mean the lack of Chain Lightning? I have the others (Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Lightning Bolt) so this is really the only 'bolt' left. There is Shard Volley, but I liken this to just a bad Shrapnel Blast by sacrificing a land. The cool part is dodging Wasteland hitting my Barbarian Rings by hustling Shard Volley at instant speed. Still, don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning (2 cards to deal 5 damage? 2 cards to deal 4 damage?) I see it like a mini-combo: Spark Elemental/Hellspark Elemental + Reckless Abandon = 7 damage. Most often, I use a Great Furnace for the Shrapnel Blast, or SDT (which has already proved it's usefulness TIME AND AGAIN) The Pyrite Spellbombs were essentially creature removal against stuff like Fish and Gobbos, along with late game fodder for Shrapnel Blast. The draw option isn't bad either, considering Magma Jet and SDT setting you up with decent top-decks.

Honestly, what I think I need is another Sulfuric Vortex. I am using 2 maindeck, and a 3rd seems to be smart. Getting the thing down EARLY has won me games I had no business winning.

For reference, here is my current list:

4x Spark Elemental
4x Hellspark Elemental
4x Keldon Marauders
2x Magus of the Scroll
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Shrapnel Blast
4x Rite of Flame
2x Magma Jet
2x Reckless Abandon
2x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Pyrite Spellbomb
3x Barbarian Ring
4x Great Furnace
11x Mountain


Sideboard

4x Magus of the Moon
4x Smash to Smithereens
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Pyroblast

[I am the brainwasher]

Hello, I am new to the thread!
I just hope that people arent related to be as simple-minded as the tactics of Burn-Decks here:tongue:.
I wanted to share/discover experiences, because I played Burn/Sligh for a long time in a lot of different Formats/Blocks and I really want to build a Burndeck again since Premium-Deck F&L!
But it isnt just enough to have a deck that looks nice, so I am getting to the point right now:wink: :

The best Experience with a Burndeck I had definetly with this one:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34664

I fell over it as i was looking around at scg.com and built it on MWS to have a smooth and easy deck which is fun to play, to give me a brake between hard-braining games (Normally I play Solidarity and Non-LED-Dredge). What can I say, I love MtG but I am not always into those exhausting games.
I wasnt too surprised as I saw nearly exact the same list twice in the Top 8 of big Tournaments:
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1335
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1329

The Deck is just amazing! It doesnt matter which List you like more, both Versions are a very solid built and the most stable and successful versions I have spotted so far. I like the Mono-R Version best, but both lists have their disadvantages in front of the other.
I can just recommend how fun and effective this deck is (right now) and that this is definetly the list (sb is always changing, for sure) that you should be playing right now, if you want to be successfull.

PS: Dont tear me apart if I miswritten some sentences, english is not my first language; besides that, I am aware that it is arguable if the last 2 lists I linked belong here, I think they do, but if you are are too conservative they should be on a Boros Thread, nvm. !

[pocari79]

When you say 'replacing bolts' I assume you mean the lack of Chain Lightning? I have the others (Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Lightning Bolt) so this is really the only 'bolt' left. There is Shard Volley, but I liken this to just a bad Shrapnel Blast by sacrificing a land. The cool part is dodging Wasteland hitting my Barbarian Rings by hustling Shard Volley at instant speed. Still, don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning (2 cards to deal 5 damage? 2 cards to deal 4 damage?) I see it like a mini-combo: Spark Elemental/Hellspark Elemental + Reckless Abandon = 7 damage. Most often, I use a Great Furnace for the Shrapnel Blast, or SDT (which has already proved it's usefulness TIME AND AGAIN) The Pyrite Spellbombs were essentially creature removal against stuff like Fish and Gobbos, along with late game fodder for Shrapnel Blast. The draw option isn't bad either, considering Magma Jet and SDT setting you up with decent top-decks.


what I mean by "replacing bolts' is that you are replacing some burn spells with artifacts and creatures to support reckless abandon and shrapnel blast. Since i've never seen your list until now, I didn't know what exactly you were replacing. I can't say that I like the fact that you've cut out fireblasts and price of progresses entirely and you're only down to 2 magma jets. Fireblast is essentially a free burn spell for 4 damage and unless nobody plays with non-basics in your environment, I have a hard time seeing price of progress dealing less than 6 damage every time you cast it.

Also, i'm not sure why you would need rite of flame at all unless you're always short on mana when you're trying to unload all your burn on one turn? if you need the rite of flame to cast a creature and reckless abandon or cast an artifact and then shrapnel blast then it just seems even less efficient since you just used 3 cards to deal 4 to 5 damage (assuming the creature doesn't get to attack).

It just seems like we have really different philosophies on how to make the burn deck. I want to maximize damage output on each card and want to try to eliminate dead draws where you want to your deck to have a lot of mini combos which is nice but you run the risk of not being able to get your pieces on time or in the right order.

If I were to change anything on your deck it would be to get rid of the 4 rite of flames and replace it 1-2 more mountains and 2 magma jets.

[Mr. Safety]

what I mean by "replacing bolts' is that you are replacing some burn spells with artifacts and creatures to support reckless abandon and shrapnel blast. Since i've never seen your list until now, I didn't know what exactly you were replacing. I can't say that I like the fact that you've cut out fireblasts and price of progresses entirely and you're only down to 2 magma jets. Fireblast is essentially a free burn spell for 4 damage and unless nobody plays with non-basics in your environment, I have a hard time seeing price of progress dealing less than 6 damage every time you cast it.

Also, i'm not sure why you would need rite of flame at all unless you're always short on mana when you're trying to unload all your burn on one turn? if you need the rite of flame to cast a creature and reckless abandon or cast an artifact and then shrapnel blast then it just seems even less efficient since you just used 3 cards to deal 4 to 5 damage (assuming the creature doesn't get to attack).

It just seems like we have really different philosophies on how to make the burn deck. I want to maximize damage output on each card and want to try to eliminate dead draws where you want to your deck to have a lot of mini combos which is nice but you run the risk of not being able to get your pieces on time or in the right order.

If I were to change anything on your deck it would be to get rid of the 4 rite of flames and replace it 1-2 more mountains and 2 magma jets.

I forgot about Fireblast, I'm using 1 in the maindeck. With that many non-mountains, I didn't think I could support more than 1. I goofed and put 2 Magus of the Scroll.

As far as Price of Progress goes, that would be a natural substitute for Hellspark Elemental, and I would then put a couple more Magma Jets in there instead of the Reckless Abandons. I feel that 2 Jets is enough considering SDT basically taking up one of those slots, and it being repeatable top-deck manipulation. The problem: I don't have any PoP's (which makes me sad...) I wouldnt take my list to a tournament the way I listed it. I would HAVE to get Price of Progress in there x4 to be competitive.

My list is borderline sligh because of the 13 dudes, even though they don't stick for long. It makes for some different decisions, for sure.

The Rite of Flames are a leftover from using Kiln Fiend...I found that Kiln Fiend was a little underwhelming, but I noticed that Rite of Flame allowed for some explosives starts. They just get better as the game goes on, too. I felt that the acceleration was neccesary for me to actually play Sulfuric Vortex early enough to matter, and also for the sideboarded Magus of the Moon/Ensnaring Bridges. The fact that it can enable a turn 1 Smash to Smithereens, hosing a Lions-Eye Diamond, had some appeal for me too.

[Wallace]

Yes! Magic...it's been a while (cool whip, a while...lol). I was sitting up in my room enjoying my morning herbal supplement and looking at my pauper burn list. I wondered what a legacy burn list looked like now days and decided to put a list together. After a half hour or so I looked at what I had, called up Alex (munkie) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?11-munkie) to get an opinion and built it on MWS. Lemme Know how I did...

:r:4's full of Burn:r:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike/Reckless Abandon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15204)
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental

4 Wooded Foot Hills,Arid Mesa,Bloodstained Mire or Scalding Tarn.
4 Wooded Foot Hills,Arid Mesa,Bloodstained Mire or Scalding Tarn. (Obv., different one than used above)
2 Wooded Foot Hills,Arid Mesa,Bloodstained Mire or Scalding Tarn. (Obv., different one than used above)
4 Taiga
4 Mountain
2 Snow-covered Mountain

SB:
4 Runefire Trap
3 Krosan Grip
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Ratchet Bomb

4 Lava Spike or 4 Reckless Abandon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15204), couldn't decide. Are 8 creatures enough to support Abandon, is Abandon good enough?

[TheArchitect]

Abandon is rarely worth it. Even when you have 12+ creatures since it can't be used on its own if you draw it late game its just a dead card. I think the consistency of Lava Spike would defiantly be better, in your deck and most others.

[Mr. Safety]

Abandon is rarely worth it. Even when you have 12+ creatures since it can't be used on its own if you draw it late game its just a dead card. I think the consistency of Lava Spike would defiantly be better, in your deck and most others.

I would play BOTH, but Lava Spike at 4 and Reckless Abandon at 2. Most people forget about Hellspark Elemental having unearth, meaning you can save the unearth for when you topdeck RA. If you have a clear board, you can attack with the HE, too. What you're doing is getting 4 damage out of 3 mana...which is equivalent to Flame Javelin. On the added bonus side, you can do it TWICE with Hellspark Elemental, and you can do it with those dudes hitting the yard ANYWAYS. You don't have any card disadvantage, basically just a sorcery speed 4 damage Lightning Bolt.

[lyracian]

4 Lava Spike or 4 Reckless Abandon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15204), couldn't decide. Are 8 creatures enough to support Abandon, is Abandon good enough?I would go with Spike for the consist 3 damage over needing a creature for the one extra point. People may forget about unearth, but if they keep getting Exiled RA is useless.

[They Call Me Flez]

I'd like to add that in my Burn deck, I run 12 fetches and 8 mountains as the manabase. This means that most of the time, I can play turn one Lavamancer and be able to fire him off every turn by fetching and casting a spell. Also, if you're Fireblasting at any point other than to kill your opponent, that'll give your Lavamancers 1.5 activations. This is my full list.

4x Goblin Guide
4x Kiln Fiend
4x Grim Lavamancer

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike

4x Flame Rift
4x Fireblast
4x Price of Progress

4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Wooded Foothills
8x Mountain

Sideboard:

3x Vexing Shusher
3x Searing Blaze
2x Smash to Smithereens
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Ravenous Trap

[paeng4983]

Lava Spike or Reckless Abandon, couldn't decide. Are 8 creatures enough to support Abandon, is Abandon good enough?

no. i'd rather go with lave spike.
8 creatures is too low

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All,

@Bigbear102: I really appreciate your posts a few pages back with entire decklists and justification. Overall I found them very solid and almost identical to what I am playing for my Burn variant. I do have one question for you and it is based on the major difference between our two builds. How is 20 land working out for you? I have always played this deck at 18 and was just curious for your reasoning for the extra 2 land. I know this probably seems like a trivial point, but in a deck that is all about squeezing out 20 damage before your opponent can do so, it seems, in my experience, that 20 land might be too much. I haven't had any trouble at 18 land in the past. However it seems you probably have played the deck a bit more than I have so I would like to hear your rationale. One more thing, if we agree that 18 lands are the way to go, then what do we put in the 2 card gap in the deck?

Decklist
Land: 18
8 mountain
4 fetchland one (wooded foothills)
4 fetchland two (bloodstained mire)
2 fetchland three (arid mesa)

Creatures: 8
4 goblin guide
4 hellspark elemental

Spell: 34
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
4 magma jet
4 price of progress
2 flame rift (this is the 2 of slot that would be open; flame rift seemed like the best option)
2 volcanic fallout
2 flamebreak
4 fireblast

Sideboard: 15
2 Tormod's Crypt (Faerie Macabre: is this a better option?)
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens (Shattering Spree: is this a better option?)
3 Blood Moon
2 Everlasting Torment
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Flamebreak

The sideboard is a bit of a work in progress. I play at a few different venues and the meta changes based on the store. So naturally knowing what others will be playing I adjust my board.

One final thought on the deck, I am fetchland heavy. I think this is necessary because this deck either wins or loses based on your ability to draw into burn within the first 5 turns. Within the first 5 turns you effectively improve your chance to draw non-land card by 1-2% per fetchland. This may seem low or unnecessary. I have had good luck popping 2-3 fetches in games consistently. Everyone knows how deck thinning works but I am of the opinion that it is necessary in this deck because it improves our odds of drawing relevant cards in those last few draws. I would love to hear some other individuals' opinions on the land split between mountains and fetches.

For any others out there what are the feelings on Tormod's Crypt vs. Faerie Macabre? Also I would like some opinions on Smash to Smithereens vs. Shattering Spree for the board.