[Deck] Burn

[Evermint]

So my major concern remains... what does the deck do against Leyline of Sanctity? You could say "lots of speedy creatures" or "burn a lot before it hits the table" but neither of these is realistic for consistency. As soon as it hits from the opening hand, the game is pretty much over.

And what're the plans for Countertop?

[Valtrix]

Play fetches, taigas, and manamorphose so you can board Krosan Grip. Then you have a chance against counterbalance too.

[lyracian]

So my major concern remains... what does the deck do against Leyline of Sanctity? You could say "lots of speedy creatures" or "burn a lot before it hits the table" but neither of these is realistic for consistency. As soon as it hits from the opening hand, the game is pretty much over. And what're the plans for Countertop?all is dust in the sideboard? Ratchet Bomb is probably the best option.

[Ozymandias]

Sulfuric Vortices, Flame Rift over Keldon Marauders, SB in Shushers and take out bolts/fireblast.

[pocari79]

So my major concern remains... what does the deck do against Leyline of Sanctity? You could say "lots of speedy creatures" or "burn a lot before it hits the table" but neither of these is realistic for consistency. As soon as it hits from the opening hand, the game is pretty much over.

And what're the plans for Countertop?

in many people's current build, the white leyline hitting the table would probably be game over. however, if you're actually facing decks that use the white leyline, the deck is probably going to be enchantress and i would actually sideboard in anarchy. i've been playing burn in my environment for the past 6 months and been getting good results but I still haven't seen anybody board in the white leyline just against burn so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

countertop you have to get lucky and hope they don't get the softlock on turn 2. some people like using vexing shusher and I like using boseiju. but if countertop does make a huge resurgance i might consider playing 4 urza's rage and 4 fallouts.

[Mr. Safety]

So my major concern remains... what does the deck do against Leyline of Sanctity? You could say "lots of speedy creatures" or "burn a lot before it hits the table" but neither of these is realistic for consistency. As soon as it hits from the opening hand, the game is pretty much over.

I think the best weapons against a sideboarded Leyline of Sanctity are these:

Sulfuric Vortex (should have 4 somewhere between main and side)
Volcanic Fallout (horribly inefficient but uncountereable)
Ratchet Bomb (slow, but will eventually hit 4 counters for the leyline)

That's a tough card to deal with, but you can also work around it by using more 'burn' creatures maindeck (Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, Spark Elemental, even Hell's Thunder to a certain extent.) If you expect to see a lot of Leyline of Sancitity, I would go with a creature-heavy maindeck with Vortex x4 somewher in the main/side.

As far as countertop goes...Vexing Shusher should be in your sideboard in some number, and I use Magus of the Moon in my sideboard to keep early Counterbalances off the table.

[I am the brainwasher]

I am still playing (and thinking that its the optimum of a modern Burn-deck) the list of kyle miller. I only replaced 2 Mountains with 2 Fetchlands and I am still very happy with the whole deck and each part of it.
I played against Leyline of Sanctitiy in Death and Taxes and StaXXX and It was only a problem against StaXXX because creatures arent really the way to go and a experienced player (or someone who is familiar with your build) will let the anti-creep cards in and rely on his Leyline. Against Death and Taxes you just burn his guys and Run over him, I like to board out Fireblast and Lavaspike for additional creatures and Volcanic Fallout and recognized its VERY doable. I thin the iggest problem is Enchantress against which I just loose. Pyrostatic Pillar could help you out a bit as well.
I think if you assume a heavy white meta with a lot of that shitty leyline I would propably just cast Anarchy and play more basic mountains (8 to be exact). I think that this deck is still a great choice and has so many very good matchups (Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins to name the Tier) and I wouldnt do some crazy stuff (which is based on desperation if you are honest:laugh:) to splash more than one Taiga or Plateau to get rid of annoying enchantemnts.
Greetings

[Valtrix]

I think the best weapons against a sideboarded Leyline of Sanctity are these:

Sulfuric Vortex (should have 4 somewhere between main and side)
Volcanic Fallout (horribly inefficient but uncountereable)
Ratchet Bomb (slow, but will eventually hit 4 counters for the leyline)

Ratchet bomb from this list is the only thing that will matter. Burn won't be able to win through a leyline because it's very unlikely you'll have enough nontargetted damaging spells you have. You'll just be trying so hard and be slow that whatever deck you're playing against will be able to set up a much, much better position.


As far as countertop goes...Vexing Shusher should be in your sideboard in some number, and I use Magus of the Moon in my sideboard to keep early Counterbalances off the table.

Shusher seems reasonable I suppose, however I'm not convinced that it's actually the answer vs. counterbalanace that you want, because it might not actually stick around. I say this because there's a good chance that the counterbalance player won't have very much to board against you or even if they would their creature removal is still relevant since you're trying to get damage through in some way through creatures already. Additionally a shusher with a counterbalance online means everything costs one more and slows you down quite a bit. Yes, it can get there, but I'd be more inclined to get something with perhaps a little more utility and reliability...

I still advocate krosan grip, though many are probably not inclined to splash. It'll almost certainly deal with counterbalance, leylines, chalices, or any other random things you find yourself needing it against. However, shusher or pyroblasts are probably your next best choices.

Also, Magus can be a strong card I think but I think it's a little misguided to use to stop an "early" counterbalance, because balance is going to come down before your magus if it's ever in the countertop player's opening hand.

[Mr. Safety]

Ratchet bomb from this list is the only thing that will matter. Burn won't be able to win through a leyline because it's very unlikely you'll have enough nontargetted damaging spells you have. You'll just be trying so hard and be slow that whatever deck you're playing against will be able to set up a much, much better position.



Shusher seems reasonable I suppose, however I'm not convinced that it's actually the answer vs. counterbalanace that you want, because it might not actually stick around. I say this because there's a good chance that the counterbalance player won't have very much to board against you or even if they would their creature removal is still relevant since you're trying to get damage through in some way through creatures already. Additionally a shusher with a counterbalance online means everything costs one more and slows you down quite a bit. Yes, it can get there, but I'd be more inclined to get something with perhaps a little more utility and reliability...

I still advocate krosan grip, though many are probably not inclined to splash. It'll almost certainly deal with counterbalance, leylines, chalices, or any other random things you find yourself needing it against. However, shusher or pyroblasts are probably your next best choices.

Also, Magus can be a strong card I think but I think it's a little misguided to use to stop an "early" counterbalance, because balance is going to come down before your magus if it's ever in the countertop player's opening hand.

Most of my comments were geared toward Leyline of Sanctity, which only cares about targeted damage. Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elemental can just attack for damage.

Most CounterTop players I've run against do NOT get a turn 2 Counterbalance. Most of the time they end up using up their Forces/Dazes in turns 1-2 and Counterbalance is their mid-game lock. This has allowed me to get Magus of the Moon down early enough to matter. Non-land acceleration can really help with this (Simian Spirit Guide and Chrome Mox) especially Chrome Mox, as it can be used on redundant Sulfuric Vortex's or on cards that become blanked by opponent's permanents (Leyline of Sanctity, Chalice of the Void @1) The acceleration I've used for the most part is Rite of Flame, but I'm really eyeballing Chrome Mox.

I'm really debating the inclusion of Chrome Mox in Burn again...it creates card disadvantage but makes for explosive starts. I've tried Rite of Flame in variants before, but they end up being blanked by Chalice @1 as well.

Regardless, my point is that if your metagame calls for 3 mana proactive measures, then acceleration will become neccessary (Chrome Mox, Simian Spirit Guide) so you can viably get your stuff out early (Sulfuric Vortex, Blood Moon.) Braid of Fire seems like it has some really good potential as well, albeit only for instant speed burn spells like Bolt/Magma Jet. It would open up and make cards like Flame Javelin a lot easier, although I'm not sure it's worth any slots with Fireblast being a lot better.

Thoughts? Am I way off base here? Also, how do you feel about Crack the Earth or Misguided Rage as hate for a 'free' Leyline?

[Sturtzilla]

I'm really debating the inclusion of Chrome Mox in Burn again...it creates card disadvantage but makes for explosive starts. I've tried Rite of Flame in variants before, but they end up being blanked by Chalice @1 as well.

Thoughts? Am I way off base here? Also, how do you feel about Crack the Earth or Misguided Rage as hate for a 'free' Leyline?

Chrome Mox
This call would most likely be dependent on your particular build. I have been playing a list it is posted on this thread. It is comment number 1500. I would personally suggest against the inclusion of chrome mox. It as you stated allows for explosive starts, but at the expense of your mid-late game. In my experience mid-late game is turns 4-6 for this deck. If you run out of gas you are done. It gives your opponent time to recover, gain life, or smash your face in. I think the loss of two cards (the mox could be burn; and the imprinted card) that could be pointed at your foe's dome is a poor choice.

Crack the Earth and Misguided Rage
I guess these could potentially work in the correct situation. They are just very situational. If you don't get a turn one crack the earth when you are on the play, your opponent could just sac a land. Same argument goes for the misguided rage. By the time you cast it they could just sac a land. I would opt for the 1-2 Taiga in the main, which would be tutorable by fetches. I would also run Krosan Grip. I would use this route because it uses less spaces in the sideboard and is the best as far as flexibility goes. Grip can solve many problems that hurt this deck. You might have to wait an extra turn to play your burn, but by then you will have land to unload your hand savagely.

[Mr. Safety]

Chrome Mox
This call would most likely be dependent on your particular build. I have been playing a list it is posted on this thread. It is comment number 1500. I would personally suggest against the inclusion of chrome mox. It as you stated allows for explosive starts, but at the expense of your mid-late game. In my experience mid-late game is turns 4-6 for this deck. If you run out of gas you are done. It gives your opponent time to recover, gain life, or smash your face in. I think the loss of two cards (the mox could be burn; and the imprinted card) that could be pointed at your foe's dome is a poor choice.

Crack the Earth and Misguided Rage
I guess these could potentially work in the correct situation. They are just very situational. If you don't get a turn one crack the earth when you are on the play, your opponent could just sac a land. Same argument goes for the misguided rage. By the time you cast it they could just sac a land. I would opt for the 1-2 Taiga in the main, which would be tutorable by fetches. I would also run Krosan Grip. I would use this route because it uses less spaces in the sideboard and is the best as far as flexibility goes. Grip can solve many problems that hurt this deck. You might have to wait an extra turn to play your burn, but by then you will have land to unload your hand savagely.

Chrome Mox's usefulness is predicated solely on the idea that you would need the acceleration to play 3 mana proactive cards, like Blood Moon. You would want 4 Blood Moons available, maybe even playing 2-4 Magus of the Moon as well. Chrome Mox makes it happen by turn 2 (early enough to count) and Mox can use redundant Blood Moon's to imprint. Another great target for Mox is a 2nd Sulfuric Vortex. Again, the whole premise is if you need 3 mana protection, you need acceleration. Mox seems like the best option because of it's resilience to Wasteland, and most players won't counter Mox...they will hold their counterspells for business cards.

The only other truly viable acceleration method would be Simian Spirit Guide, which isn't a bad option at all. At best it will allow a turn 2 Vortex/Blood Moon, or free Chain Lightnings/Lightning Bolst. At worst, it's a 2/2 beater for 3 mana.

As far as running out of gas, I'm fairly certain that's what Grim Lavamancer in the mid-game is for. I'm actually playtesting 2x Grims and 1x Cursed Scroll in my deck. I'm also still trying to pull off Shrapnel Blast, and Chrome Mox and Cursed Scroll go a long way to making it more viable.

Crack the Earth was based on the idea of having an opponent sacrifice their only permanent in play (Leyline of Lifeforce, as in the Dredge matchup). Yes you would need it turn 1, for sure. You would need 4 definately, and you may have to mulligan aggressively. I think you're right about splashing for a Taiga in order to play Grip in the sideboard. If a builder were so inclined, they could play a playset of Manamorphose as well, and build the deck on a 56 card basis rather than 60. Not sure how effective that approach would be, but it has potential for fixing color without opening up to Wasteland susceptability (for K-Grip in the board.)

I've also toyed around with some super-secret ninja tech, and I'm going to have to ask you to keep this secret: Mindstorm Crown. Haha, I'm just kidding. I've used it in casual decks, but at 3 mana, it really isn't any better than Phyrexian Arena, and most likely the better option is 4x Magma Jet (as has been stated) or Sensei's Divining Top for library manipulation.

[Sturtzilla]

@Mr. Safety

Chrome Mox
I am fully aware of the rationale for wanting to use Chrome Mox in a burn deck. Again your logic is situational. Playing a turn 2 Blood Moon or Sulfuric Vortex is decent at best. You are giving up significant card avantage to do this. My question is as follows: "With what burn will you finish off you opponent?" Your suggested scenario leaves you with 2 cards in hand if you are on the play and 3 cards if you are on the draw (presupposing you play a turn one bolt). It seems to me like an explosive start leading to a dearth of mid to late game. It just seems bad to me. You won't be able to fetch to deck thin in the case of Blood Moon and then Price of Progress will hurt you more than they should. In the case of the vortex it might be able to seal the deal, but that is a 10 turn clock (and a 10 turn clock starting on turn 2). In my opinion you should be trying to get the job done faster. The argument of the mox being resilient to Wasteland is a moot point seeing as your lands are mostly if not all mountians and fetches. Wasteland should not be a concern of this deck.

Simian Spirit Guide
1. Card Disadvantage/Mana Production
I would consider this over the mox because it allows for quick mana acceleration without causing as much card disadvantage. I would still disagree with SSG because it dilutes your amount of burn in the deck. It would allow for explosive starts but then what are you going to do mid to late game? Top deck and hope. With my experience these don't win this deck games.
2. Creature?
As for a 2/2 beater for 3... that is terrible in this deck. Even if you play a turn one mox and get your turn two SSG... you played an over costed Grizzly Bear in a deck that is supposed to be fast. This creature will probably be staring down a goyf or other big nasty. Again this just seems like a poor call. That is also neglecting that this deck plays few creatures in effort to nullify the removal an opponent will be playing.

Grim Lavamancer
What can I say? When he works he is awesome. More often in my experience he is nuked before he is active and is a wasted play which slows the deck down as a whole. Sure he gives the deck some reach late game, but he has to stay alive and lets face it he dies to nearly every piece of removal that is played in the format. I personally don't like playing him. He gives your opponent a target for removal and tends to be a wasted play. This is probably more of a player to player call though. If you like him run with him. I know this forum has been historically torn on his inclusion.

Cursed Scroll
Scroll gives late game reach to the deck. Counter point would be scroll is slow. This is probably another player call. I think it is clunky and non-optimal. But that is my opinion.

Manamorphose
This would be a decent replacement for Taiga. It color fixes which is what we are really looking for, it does it for free, and replaces itself. The only problem I see is fitting it in the deck. What would you cut for it? In the main it really serves no purpose game one. It can cantrip you into another spell but what about when you draw a land and don't get any damage for the turn? I would need convincing on this one.

Mindstorm Crown
I actually used to play this in my casual burn build before I tweaked it up to be legacy oriented. It could work I guess. It just seems clunky to me because you would invest you 3 mana on a draw option that could have been game winning burn. I am not saying it won't work, but I am very skeptical. This slot should really be Wheel of Fortune (my personal opinion), too bad it is banned.

I hope this helps and that this post doesn't paint me as an ass. I am just trying to help. I am interested in your responses.

[Gocho]

I agree with you in every card :)
Very good points

[Mr. Safety]

Is Wheel of Fate an option?

My current list:

4 x Great Furnace
14 x Mountain

1 x Cursed Scroll
2 x Pyrite Spellbomb

2 x Fireblast
3 x Flame Rift
4 x Hellspark Elemental
4 x Keldon Marauders
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Magma Jet
2 x Reckless Abandon
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Shrapnel Blast
4 x Spark Elemental


Is there anything that is 'glaring' at you that should be changed?

[Ozymandias]

Chain Lighting?

[Sturtzilla]

@ Gocho

Thanks! I am glad you agree!

@ Mr. Safety

Wheel of Fortune is banned in legacy. So it is not an option. Sure is awesome in casual though; that was just some wishful thinking in my above post.

Spark Elemental
I would definitely change the Spark Elemental to Chain Lightning. The elemental in my opinion is not the best call. Turn one he may be basically another Lightning Bolt, but after turns 2-3 against many decks he will not deal damage. I would suggest Chain Lightning because it is another 3 damage for 1 mana spell. Also you get into the issue of running enough creature for your opponent's removal to matter and be useful. Hellspark Elemental can sometimes get around the removal issue if he is not killed by Swords to Plowshare or Path to Exile. Due to unearth. This could be another possible replacement. Unearth is also useful in counter heavy match ups because the unearth cannot be countered. If it is stifled you can always just do it again the following turn. Also it adds some late game reach to the deck.

Keldon Marauders
Personally I am torn of Keldon Marauders. It is a great turn 2 play because of the opportunity to get the 5 damage for 2 mana. However in the mid to late game he doesn't seal the deal against aggro or aggro/control. He is decent because there is no reason for your opponent to remove him. He will vanish out quickly and when he does leave it hurts your opponent. Which is good in a Burn deck's strategy to play few creatures (or creatures your opponent won't bother to remove). I think he is a decent call. But depending on your play style and meta there could be better options. I have personally gone to Hellspark Elemental in his slot.

Reckless Abandon
I am not sold on this one either. In a deck that runs few creatures it is a bit lack luster. I am sure in the right case it might be awesome, but it would seem to me that wouldn't be too often. The decklist only has 12 creatures 4 of which vanish and the other 8 sac at end of turn.

Shrapnel Blast
Many people have tried to make this work for quite some time now. The problem I see with this card is that it is dependent on you playing artifacts in a deck that doesn't need them. This results in diluting your burn spell ratio. I see 7 artifacts in you build and 4 shrapnel blasts. To ensure being able to cast the Shrapnel Blast you would probably want at least 8-10 artifacts. The problem with that is you then would have to dip into either more artifact lands, spellbombs, or scrolls. In my opinion none of these are ideal options. You will either dilute your ability to burn effectively, disrupt your own mana base, or clog your hand.

1. Artifact Lands: My opinion is that they shouldn't be in the deck because they open you up to Wasteland. This deck traditionally runs few lands in the 18-20 range. So being wastelanded is probably not a good thing. If you went the Darksteel Citadel route, you shoot yourself in the foot because you aren't making red mana.

2. Pyrite Spellbomb: While they cantrip, this seems subpar to building the deck efficiently in the first place. And you are getting 2 damage for 2 mana. Not the most efficient in the damage department. I guess if your opponent is playing Silver Knight it might be okay.

3. Cursed Scroll: Already discussed above. It offers late game stability, while being slow. Adding more would more than likely clog otherwise explosive hands.

I would suggest adding the following:

Price of Progress
This cards singlehandedly wins games in this format. I rarely sideboard this card out and it usually gets me 6-8 damage for 2 mana. Efficient and instant speed. It is extra devastating in conjunction with Fireblast. I have on multiple occasions been able to score turn 3 wins due to the afore mentioned cards used together netting 10 damage. This may conflict with the shrapnel blast option as you are running artifact lands and will hurt you as well. I still think Price of Progress is superior. My opinion: PoP + Mountain >>> Shrapnel Blast + Great Furnace.

Chain Lightning
You need this card. It makes the deck more consistent. Outlined above.

Goblin Guide
This is a personal choice. I like the speed that you can get 4-6 damage with him. This 4-6 can be drastically game altering. Late game he can chump goyfs and keep you alive an extra turn. Try him out sometime.

[Mr. Safety]

@ Gocho

Thanks! I am glad you agree!

@ Mr. Safety

Wheel of Fortune is banned in legacy. So it is not an option. Sure is awesome in casual though; that was just some wishful thinking in my above post.


Wheel of FATE, dude, not Wheel of Fortune. It's the one from time spiral with suspend.

I see your reasoning, and it works out. The reason for me running so many creatures? Reckless Abandon x2. The reason for AVOIDING Chain Lightning? Budget, plain and simple. Price of Progress is indeed great tech, it just took a backseat to Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elemental for the opportunity to play Reckless Abandon. I see all of your points...but if you take Chain Lightning and Price of Progress out of the picture for options, I think I have a fairly optimal list. *virtual shrug* I don't play in any tournaments anyways (that may be a vital piece of information for you...)

My deck isn't really doing that bad in testing...but I agree with you fundamentally. Spells are more important than creatures. If I want creatures, use a sligh list with Goyf. I've heard it mentioned several times that 'burn isn't a real deck'. That is sad, considering what it can do.

[Sturtzilla]

Wheel of Fate
I think this is too slow for this deck plain and simple. You should have your opponent burnt to a crisp by the point you would be getting new cards off of the wheel.

Budget Burn
Well I would agree that if you are trying to build on a budget, you build is solid.

Final Thoughts
I think burn has many good match ups currently; however, with the banning of survival, I think we will be seeing a return to Countertop Decks (among other "safe" builds). I think the problem a lot of the time is that burn decks are not optimized and are piloted by individuals that don't know what they should be doing with them. So Burn, as a deck, may get a big NOOB label because of this. This is not entirely accurate. If the player knows the deck and their meta, he can win consistently with this deck.

[Mr. Safety]

Revised list, just for reference. Once I come into some Chain Lightnings, I'll make the direct swap in place of Spark Elemental. That means Reckless Abandon leaves for Flame Rift OR Price of Progress.


4 x Great Furnace
13 x Mountain
2 x Chrome Mox

2 x Fireblast
4 x Hellspark Elemental
4 x Keldon Marauders
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Magma Jet
2 x Reckless Abandon
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Shrapnel Blast
4 x Spark Elemental
4 x Sulfuric Vortex
1 x Cursed Scroll


Weaker than an optimal list, for sure, but still pretty brutal.

[ummon]

I'm playing a more traditional list that doesn't run goblin guide or grim lavamancer (I don't want to strengthen my opponent's removal, and I don't want to buy fetchlands), so I still run magma jet and incinerate in my deck. However, I don't see them in any of the modern builds. I'm curious to know what everyone's thoughts on them are. Personally for me incinerate's instant speed works well as does lightning bolt. Also, magma jet seems to be necessary for the long run, especially when not running grim lavamancer.

[Iranon]

Burn is slightly underpowered by Legacy standards, so if you play it you should have a good reason. The slots past bolts&blasts should be tech to give you an edge or save you against the one thing you fear. If no tech comes to mind that sounds better than bolt-wannabes, you need to ask yourself why you aren't playing something more powerful in the first place.
Magma Jet is more acceptable to fill the last remaining slots because at least it can find your tech when needed.

[ummon]

Burn is slightly underpowered by Legacy standards, so if you play it you should have a good reason. The slots past bolts&blasts should be tech to give you an edge or save you against the one thing you fear. If no tech comes to mind that sounds better than bolt-wannabes, you need to ask yourself why you aren't playing something more powerful in the first place.
Magma Jet is more acceptable to fill the last remaining slots because at least it can find your tech when needed.

The reason I'm playing Burn is cause I'm a budget player and my only other deck, mono-blue Solidarity, is not very good in the meta here for SCG San Jose.

There are two things I fear. The first is Counterbalance, for which I keep Vexing Shusher in the sideboard (there is nothing I can do about it maindeck). The second thing is having to watch as my opponent kills me because I ran out of burn spells, which Magma Jet is usually best at helping me out with. I agree that Grim Lavamancer would also be useful here, but it is vulnerable to creature removal.

[Mr. Safety]

I have found that Magma Jet is about the best option for library manipulation and I play 4, but if you feel the need for further slots dedicated to it I would use Sensei's Divining Top x1. If you're worried about creature removal hitting your Grim Lavamancers, try out Cursed Scroll. I am currently playtesting it x1 in the deck. You don't want too many slots dedicated to it, really only 1. I have found you can have 1-2 flex slots in burn, but that's about it. (I'm sure most would agree with me on that one.)

Magma Jet is damage-wise the 'worst' card in my deck. Everything else deals 3+ damage. This is where you want to be, with maximum damage potential from each card.

I ran into Chalice of the Void @1 turn 1 last night with my zoo deck...that sucks! What are people using for artifact hate in the sideboard? Smash to Smithereens, Ancient Grudge, Meltdown?

[Sims]

I would say the best artifact hate options are going to be Smash to Smithereens, Shattering Spree, and Crash. If you're in green you can run Grip though sometimes that's way too slow against Chalice, but still works if you've got it for say Counterbalance.

[pocari79]

I'm playing a more traditional list that doesn't run goblin guide or grim lavamancer (I don't want to strengthen my opponent's removal, and I don't want to buy fetchlands), so I still run magma jet and incinerate in my deck. However, I don't see them in any of the modern builds. I'm curious to know what everyone's thoughts on them are. Personally for me incinerate's instant speed works well as does lightning bolt. Also, magma jet seems to be necessary for the long run, especially when not running grim lavamancer.

I used to play 3 copies of incinerate in my build and now i'm down to 2 and I'm trying to find something else to replace the incinerate. it's not a bad burn spell per say but the problem lies in that it's stuck in a group of 2cc burn spells and all the other 2cc burn spells in the deck do so much more. Price of Progress can deal at least 4 damage and Magma Jet helps you setup your future draws. What happens a lot of times is that I end up wanting to play the Price or Magma Jet first and the Incinerate just ends up being unused in my hand. It also doesn't feel very "right" on the mana curve. I can't really explain it but it just feels weird to play incinerate.

[Mr. Safety]

Shattering Spree is worse than useless against Chalice @1. Grudge/Grip can be played easily enough by using fetches/duels.

I think in order to have a viable chance of getting out of a Chalice lock, it has to be at 2-3 mana. Echoing Ruin is another possibility, but not as good as Smash to Smithereens. For this reason, I think the only viable option is Crash. It avoids Counterbalance slightly and can be played for 'free' at instant speed.

I noticed Rack and Ruin as well...which can be great if you are facing down Chalice @1 AND Trinisphere. I don't think it's as good as crash though.

[klaus]

Shattering Spree is worse than useless against Chalice @1.

Shattering Spree is able to punch through a Chalice @1 - here is why: the initial spell will be countered, the copies won't however, because "replicate" does not copy the (converted) manacost. nice, eh?

[Sims]

Shattering Spree is able to punch through a Chalice @1 - here is why: the initial spell will be countered, the copies won't however, because "replicate" does not copy the (converted) manacost. nice, eh?

This. Nothing feels better than tapping RRR and casting Spree with double replicate against a Trini and a Chalice @ 1 and axing both of them.

[Iranon]

The reason I'm playing Burn is cause I'm a budget player and my only other deck, mono-blue Solidarity, is not very good in the meta here for SCG San Jose.

There are two things I fear. The first is Counterbalance, for which I keep Vexing Shusher in the sideboard (there is nothing I can do about it maindeck). The second thing is having to watch as my opponent kills me because I ran out of burn spells, which Magma Jet is usually best at helping me out with. I agree that Grim Lavamancer would also be useful here, but it is vulnerable to creature removal.

Based on those fears, it seems what you want is a recurring damage source at the high end of the curve to dodge Counterbalance. If you run out of burn spells because you need to use them to stay alive, Pulse of the Forge allows you to play the control game adequately. If you run out because controllish decks stabilise on a low life total after disrupting you a little, Sulfuric Vortex may see you through.
Are you playing/considering Keldon Marauders? They still deal 2 damage when eating a removal spell, and many of those are relevant anyway (decks running burn of their own tend to be able to race, plowing their own creature can buy enough time to swing for the win).

Incinerate can only ever hope to be the 'least bad option'. If you're playing burn because it's the least bad deck in budget it's more justifiable than usual - but still seems like not even trying.

[Mr. Safety]

Shattering Spree is able to punch through a Chalice @1 - here is why: the initial spell will be countered, the copies won't however, because "replicate" does not copy the (converted) manacost. nice, eh?

I think the 'technical' wording for it would be that the copies are not played but rather put directly onto the stack.

Minor correction: if Trinisphere is in play, you will have to pay 2RRR to replicate it twice. Trinisphere will STILL cause you to pay2R for Spree...and then you can replicate it if you have the mana to spare. That's a tall order for a low-land deck like burn.

I'm eyeballing Rack and Ruin in order to deal with that kind of Angel/Dragon Stompy setup or Staxx build that uses those 2 in conjunction. In Staxx, you can most likely use it to hose some combination of Chalice/Trini/Staxx.

[Di]

I think the 'technical' wording for it would be that the copies are not played but rather put directly onto the stack.

Minor correction: if Trinisphere is in play, you will have to pay 2RRR to replicate it twice. Trinisphere will STILL cause you to pay2R for Spree...and then you can replicate it if you have the mana to spare. That's a tall order for a low-land deck like burn.



No. It costs RRR.

Trinisphere and Shattering Spree (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12983-Trinisphere-shattering-spree&highlight=shattering%20spree)

[Mr. Safety]

Awesome, thanks for that.

Has anyone run into someone who didn't know how that interaction works (luckily I haven't run into this yet)

I play a lot on MWS...I'm going to get some dumbass scrubs saying it won't work the way the rules state it, lol.

[ExiledWolf]

Hey guys, I'm relatively new to these forums (ignore the join date :p) and to Legacy as well. I was hoping I could get a little feedback and help on my deck. Here's the list I run:

Creatures [8]
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders

Spells [32]
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
2 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Volcanic Fallout

Lands [20]
20 Mountain

Sideboard [15]
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Volcanic Fallout

It's a pretty basic deck, but it's served me well. At the place I've started playing Legacy I always make top 8, several of those times going undefeated, but then I lose in the first round of top 8. My biggest problem is Storm, which I know is a horrible match up, but I'd still like to do whatever I can to get the edge on them. Also, my store has a VERY diverse meta, and I haven't gotten the chance to play against some of the decks I'd like to to get experience with them.

[ummon]

Pyrostatic Pillar makes things a little difficult for storm, so if you want to have a chance at that matchup, you can replace Mindbreak Trap with it (when I play my combo deck, I've found Mindbreak Trap easy to play through). Personally though, I have given up on the storm matchup for burn and leave those sideboard slots open to improve other matchups.

The only thing I find wrong with your maindeck is that you only play 3 Fireblasts. You run the full 20 Mountains and 4 Magma Jets like I do, and I rarely have a problem finding mountains to sack for the Fireblasts, even if I get them in multiples. I would suggest -1 Incinerate +1 Fireblast.

Obviously, the exact proportions of Price of Progress, Sulfuric Vortex, and Volcanic Fallout (or Flamebreak) depends on your meta, but if it is a diverse meta, your split looks about right, and it seems to be working since you keep making top 8.

[ExiledWolf]

Thanks, I really appreciate it. I'll make the changes to my deck and see how things work out this Wednesday ^^

[Sims]

Awesome, thanks for that.

Has anyone run into someone who didn't know how that interaction works (luckily I haven't run into this yet)

I play a lot on MWS...I'm going to get some dumbass scrubs saying it won't work the way the rules state it, lol.

Especially on MWS that is bound to happen, but generally I haven't had any issues with that. Spree has been my go to spell for being super flexible and handling multiple artifacts without much issue. I do wish it dealt damage ala Smash to Smithereens, but in my opinion I find that spree's flexibility outshines the damage output.

However, in retrospect. No one plays stax in my meta anymore, and usually I'm the only one that plays Dragon Stompy, so it's not like i'm blowing up multiple artifacts on a regular basis anymore. I probably could make that switch, just haven't seen the need yet.

[SpikeyMikey]

It's been a long time since I tinkered with burn but two thoughts immediately come to mind. One, there's no reason to ever run Incinerate. The only decks that are ever going to straigt race you are Belcher and Tendrils Storm and in every other circumstance, Flame Rift is just superior. Second, why no Shard Volley if you're not running Barb Rings? Burn's biggest asset is its speed; the better your mana to damage ratio is, the faster you win. You don't need to have permanents, you just need to have 18 or 19 damage. I'm not a fan of 4 because of Fireblast, but there should be 2ish I think.

[ExiledWolf]

It's been a long time since I tinkered with burn but two thoughts immediately come to mind. One, there's no reason to ever run Incinerate. The only decks that are ever going to straigt race you are Belcher and Tendrils Storm and in every other circumstance, Flame Rift is just superior. Second, why no Shard Volley if you're not running Barb Rings? Burn's biggest asset is its speed; the better your mana to damage ratio is, the faster you win. You don't need to have permanents, you just need to have 18 or 19 damage. I'm not a fan of 4 because of Fireblast, but there should be 2ish I think.

I actually did try out Shard Volley and it just didn't work out for me. Perhaps I was playing them wrong, but more often than not the land sacrifice just bent me over. They were most certainly my last played spells, but I don't know, I just seem to have bad luck with draws when it comes down to the important stuff like 5Ks. I can win FNMs all day long, but when I get into a 5K or States or something similar my deck always seems to hate me. This seems to be the case with this tournament as well because it's not booster packs or anything like that on the line, it's $25 store credit ($100 actually but usually split by top 4), and they sell singles. So because of that I tried to make the deck as safe as possible by limiting things that could be dead draws, especially in top deck mode, or things that could end up just hurting me right out.

[ummon]

I went 4-4 in the SCG San Jose open, and will writeup a tournament report tomorrow. I didn't exactly get easy matchups, playing Spring Tide my first match and two Dredge decks in a row later (which I had no hate in my sideboard for), along with something like Eva Green.

I did manage to win a Countertop matchup though. :)

[The Big R]

This is my current list. I've only played it once in tournament play. I went 3-1 to take down my locals for $30.

Creatures: 8
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental

Spells: 33

4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 Flamebreak

Lands: 19

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
1 Taiga

Sideboard: 15

4 Krosan Grip
4 Searing Blaze
1 Volcanic Fallout
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Questions? Comments? Concerns?

[ummon]

I'm curious about how well the green splash for grip works or you. Is it worth the lifeloss due to fetches?

[zpikduM]

I'm running this:

19 Mountain
2 Shivan Gorge

4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
3 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Fireblast

Sideboard:
4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex

I really really like the Vortex main. It lets you win the long game without hindering the short game. Also randomly hoses Rhox War Monk.deck Shivan Gorge is also quite good when you're in top deck mode.

[pocari79]

It seems that there's more and more Bant aggro and Pro Bant in my area recently and it's been getting really difficult to win that matchup. A turn 2 or turn 3 Rhox War Monk makes the matchup seem really unwinnable.

I already run 2-3 sulfuric vortex in the maindeck but it just doesn't seem enough as they can counter it or just cast pridemages to kill it. Does anyone have any other ideas on how to stop that 3/4 lifelink monster? I was thinking of running Combust as it's uncounterable but I dislike running any spells in the deck that can't doesn't deal damage to players. Ideas?

Edit: I'm also running Breath of Darigaaz and ideally it can kill a war monk but usually by the time I get to 4 mana, they should have a counterspell ready so I don't like to rely on it.

[The Big R]

The life loss is usually capped at about 3 or 4 in a game which isn't unreasonable but i think its well worth it to not autolose to chalice and counterbalance. Against zoo and goblins, the life loss can be annoying. Luckily the sweepers can be back-breaking against goblins as flamebreak and fallout are just wraths. Zoo build with lynx are more favorable because it allows out fallouts to do something. With this build, Rhox War Monk is a huge problem sometimes. Maybe I should have more in the board for it. I tried Breath but it costing 4 was just too much and it was really only good for me against Rhox War Monk

[TheArchitect]

Heres the list I've been running. So far I haven't played in any large tournaments but after this weekend that won't be true and I'll let know how it does. But, at least in smaller more casual environments I have been very happy with its performance, however theres a lot of fish and goblins in my meta so I have a lot of laughable match ups (not like there isnt every where else but I mean a VERY large portion of the meta, like 50%+ is fish/goblins).

One thing I've noticed is the past few lists don't run grim lavamancer and/or fetchs. On paper he doesn't look to good (RR for 2dmg, RRR for 4dmg, etc) however, in practice he is a champ. Get him out 1st turn, and with the help of fetchlands, use him every turn from 2nd turn forward and it will almost double the amount of direct damage you are dishing out without requiring double the cards for it.

// Main Deck:

4 Keldon Marauders
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze

4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

4 Arid Mesa
10 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills

// Sideboard:

3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Volcanic Fallout

[I am the brainwasher]

At first,
I really have no clue why this Thread is on such a low level of competetive lists and full of weird cardchoices and lists which arent proofen in tourneys and couldnt win a single top 8 besides your local shop.
I have written for maybe 3 or 2 month a comment and I literally got NO response or reaction. Nothing.
The funny thing is that this isnt based on the fact that I have no clue about this deck or something. The thing is that this thread offers so much space for many cute cardchoices and so many people want to share their homebrew-decks and are not focusing on getting better, but the question is if that is the goal that is tried to be reached.
Nearly all other Threads on this site have got a rather high quality and are ment to get better results with the deck itself and try to improve lists and adapt to the actual metagame.
Why not here? Really.
Again, this is no offense but I think it would not be the badest thing if this thread becomes way more serious.
Burn/Sligh is a great deck and a deck to beat in the metas where you expect a lot of creature based and non CB-Blue Decks and I think it is one of the most underestimated ones.
But that definetly not means that every card where "deals blablabla damage to target X/Y" is playable... .
Imo ere are just 3 Versions of the deck where you are able to make top 8 out of larger tourneys.
One is the straight red version of Kyle Miller, the other two are both modified versions of it with a green or white splash.
Before I go into detail and find myself sorrounded by kitchentable players (which is not a bad thing at all, but not the place for those here on the source I think,yelling angry across this thread, I would like to know whats your oppinion on this threads quality (especially in comparison to other threads) and wishes how it should change (if this is wanted at all).
The thing is that I wont put energy into something where nothing comes back and a plan of becoming a better player of the deck or advancing the deck itself isnt followed.
The versions I am talking about (and which I am testing since I recognized their existences) made twice top8 out of 82 players (one piloted by myself) and made several top 8's in other countries. If there is more detail wanted and people are willing to focus on beeing competetive with this deck, I think this Thread could go somewhere.
Greetings

[pocari79]

@ The Big R

Breath is actually really good against combo that decide to do Empty the Warrens. I've cast Breath several times on turn 2 or turn 3 and it's pretty much an auto win from there since they usually can't recover after an Empty the Warrens. But yeah, still doesn't solve the Rhox War Monk issue.

@ Brainswasher

No offense or anything but if you want to contribute to this thread and make it better, perhaps instead of complaining maybe you could come up with some constructive replies to questions that people have posted?

Problem with most posts on the burn thread is that people just tend to throw their list up and ask for suggestions but there's no other context on the post like what their metagame is like or even comments about what problems they are encountering. This makes it extremely hard to make good comments or suggestions.

[Sims]

At first,
I really have no clue why this Thread is on such a low level of competetive lists and full of weird cardchoices and lists which arent proofen in tourneys and couldnt win a single top 8 besides your local shop.
I have written for maybe 3 or 2 month a comment and I literally got NO response or reaction. Nothing.
The funny thing is that this isnt based on the fact that I have no clue about this deck or something. The thing is that this thread offers so much space for many cute cardchoices and so many people want to share their homebrew-decks and are not focusing on getting better, but the question is if that is the goal that is tried to be reached.
Nearly all other Threads on this site have got a rather high quality and are ment to get better results with the deck itself and try to improve lists and adapt to the actual metagame.
Why not here? Really.
Again, this is no offense but I think it would not be the badest thing if this thread becomes way more serious.
Burn/Sligh is a great deck and a deck to beat in the metas where you expect a lot of creature based and non CB-Blue Decks and I think it is one of the most underestimated ones.
But that definetly not means that every card where "deals blablabla damage to target X/Y" is playable... .
Imo ere are just 3 Versions of the deck where you are able to make top 8 out of larger tourneys.
One is the straight red version of Kyle Miller, the other two are both modified versions of it with a green or white splash.
Before I go into detail and find myself sorrounded by kitchentable players (which is not a bad thing at all, but not the place for those here on the source I think,yelling angry across this thread, I would like to know whats your oppinion on this threads quality (especially in comparison to other threads) and wishes how it should change (if this is wanted at all).
The thing is that I wont put energy into something where nothing comes back and a plan of becoming a better player of the deck or advancing the deck itself isnt followed.
The versions I am talking about (and which I am testing since I recognized their existences) made twice top8 out of 82 players (one piloted by myself) and made several top 8's in other countries. If there is more detail wanted and people are willing to focus on beeing competetive with this deck, I think this Thread could go somewhere.
Greetings

This is the inherent nature of a burn thread. Burn is the quintessential cheap deck to play, and is draws an inherently casual crowd because of it. We've had 2 or 3 burn thread iterations on the Source, and almost all of them devolved into flame wars (no pun intended), name calling, and terrible card choices left and right.

Another reason that you get so many "unproven" and "weird" card choices in this thread, and thus making the thread a have a low level of competitiveness, is because most people who do play this deck only play it at LGS's where certain cards find their niche and win them games. Burn is also, as a strategy, the type of deck where there are so many options that even having 1 or 2 weak slots in your deck can get you there. Don't have Chain Lightnings but you've got Incinerates? Slows you down a little but the effect of 3 to the dome is still there.

I think if you want to truly be competitive, burn probably isn't the deck you should be playing, but that doesn't mean it can't still compete in the proper metagame at a high level. You're more than welcome to discuss your list here, but know that as with any long thread (39 pages with my forum settings, most people don't have as many replies per page) there are going to be people suggesting cards you've already suggested, or dismissing them citing prior discussion. Also, it's difficult to trace back to 1 individual post without reading every single page of the thread, so one would need to be patient.

I'd suggest speaking to a moderator and asking if it'd be possible to open a new thread with a primer and the list or lists you are referring to as a starting basis, and having it replace this thread. But as burn has so many potential options, it's not likely there is ever going to be a truly optimized list, so that would be up to the Mod Staff's discretion. Doesn't hurt to ask though.

[Dzra]

Honestly, I didn't read the whole thread and I don't personally play the deck. However, as a non-Burn player, I'm most scared of Burn when it splashes Black for Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize/Perish in the SB. An alternative would be splashing Green for Sylvan Library.

[Azel Orfat]

Imo ere are just 3 Versions of the deck where you are able to make top 8 out of larger tourneys.
One is the straight red version of Kyle Miller, the other two are both modified versions of it with a green or white splash.

I think I have played online against you, may it be? I also love Kylle Miller version:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=1454&iddeck=11729
Sulfuric Vortex is a great card for this deck because it helps against its problems (Counterbalance, gain life, stability). Then, IMO it must be a 4of

I just like to do -1 Volcanic Fallout +1 Smash to Smithereens in Kylle Miller list. Decks with Stoneforge Mystic are becoming more relevant and Smash is fine to help with Sulfuric Vortex against Jitte/SOLAS and also fine to help with Vexing Shusher against COTV. Volcanic Fallout is a great card but it's not really a need against tribal because I think it's a good pairing anyway. On the other hand, I don’t like to cut any Vexing because mono-red versions haven't many creatures. (Anyway it depends on each meta)


For a diverse meta I prefer Lynx Burn because it gives you more options against Combo (one of the weaknesses of the deck). I’m currently playing this list:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [JGC] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [OV] Mountain
3 [U] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [PLC] Keldon Marauders

// Spells
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [MPR] Lightning Bolt
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [DD2] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 4 [WWK] Searing Blaze
SB: 3 [GTW] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist


Duergar is worse than Vexing against Counterbalance but it can give you options against other enchantments. I run 3 Plateau instead of 2 due to it, but it's not really a big problem because it also helps the Lynx. I like Duergar over other Disenchantment effects because it can help against artifacts without needing white and it's also a little bear.

Anyway I need more test with them and with Canonist. I'm not yet sure if they are better than Pyrostatic Pillar. Has anyone tested Canonist in this deck?

[I am the brainwasher]

Yes indeed, we played against eachother on MWS:wink:. GG's btw.
Yeah, I think its definetly a 4-0ff, the Vortex, if you play the mono-red version of the deck. I dont see that Jitte or that girl that usually fetches as such a problem. I normally board the Vortex OUT against those decks:laugh:. It sound wrong, but I follow the plan of "shhoting" the equipped creeps with Searing Blaze/Volcanic Fallout, and this worked out very good for me.
-3 Vortex, -4 other, +4 Searing Blaze, +3 Fallouts, thats a very decent way to go I think. This won me nearly all games against Maverick/Death&Taxes and others, which arent a bad MU at all in my experience.
In the last tourney, mentioned the post before, I played against Maverick in the 6th round and won with the mentioned sb-tech.
I wouldnt cut the 3rd Fallout because its such a big fat win against Folks, Gobs, Elves and other decks, which cant be replaced by handling a single artifact I think. In a meta wheres not that much CB I would rather cut 1 or 2 Shushers for Smash to Smithereens, because early Dreadnoughts are the shit against Burn, especially with Backup. Besides that, good Goblin-lists run at least 3 CotV and I dont want to spend that much Mana to play through it and the Shusher is obviously not that great against Fallouts which are also boarded in, besides that it can hit random Aether Vials which is not a bad target at all I think:laugh:.
To come back to detail, those Lists are the only playables if you want to be competetive with Burn/Sligh atm IMO:

Mono-Red-Burn:

12-13 Fetches (4 Scalding Tarn and 4 Wooded Foothils to bluff other decks(not common but I wouldnt give away that subtile advantage, leaving a fetch on the table when youve got no 1-drop to let your opponents thoughts open to what hes playing against).
7-8 Mountains

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Sulfuric Vortex

Sb:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar/Mindbreak Trap
4 Searing Blaze
3 Volcanic Fallout
2-4 Vexing Shuhser
0-2 Smash to Smithereens

In some Metas I could see that Vortex in the sb. and Searing Blaze/Volcanic Fallout in the maindeck.

Boros/Lynx-Sligh:

14 Fetches
3-4 Mountain
2-3 Plateau

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

Sb:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar/Ethersworn Cannonist
3-4 Searing Blaze
3-4 Sulfuric Vortex
3-4 Vexing Shusher/Duergar Hexmage

Those are just some sb-choices, I think the sb is in general more variable in Burn and can be easily tuned to the Meta. The maindeck is more or less very stiff and I wouldnt change it at all atm to be honest.


Goyf-Sligh:

13-14 Fetches
3-4 Mountains
3 Taiga

4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

Sb:
I dont see that here are such strong choices in the sb as in the other lists and here can be made some innovative choices, I play the following sb atm:
3 Searing Blaze
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Vexing Shuhser
2 Krosan Grip
3 Sulfuric Vortex


Those lists have advantages each in front of eachother and can be a more weak or solid choice depending on the meta. I played all those versions a lot against different archetypes and asked my opponents after some 2/3'a wht bothers them the most and what they've seen likely and wanted their oppinion on what of those versions are the best against their deck. This in combination with the experiences I've made created the thoughts shared with you in this comment.
I think in general It can be said that the Boros Version is stronger against Combo because of that 1st Turn Lynx which can win the game fast enough, especially postboard in combination with hate. The prob is that a late Lynx is a horrible topdeck and against deck that stall out and are more resilient against creeps its not that solid. The other thing is that you are more vulnerable due to the ammount of Duals (non-basics) which are great Wasteland targets and Pop deals also dmg to you. Especially a handled first turn Lynx can be a problem, especially of the lack of "lategame power" in form of that non existing Vortex in the maindeck.
The Straight Red version hasnt got the mentioned problems and is a overall more solid choice IMO. The thing is that it can be a problem not beeing able to have those lighting speed kills with that Lynx and Ethersworn Cannonist is a house against Combo which cant be duressed in comparison to the Pyrostatic Pillar. Duergar Hexmage is also a great card that gets rid of Leyline of Sanctity and Sphere of Law/CoP:Red which the Red Version has got no solution for, besides playing the Leyline of Punishment in the sb itself, which is a horrible card to be honest.
The Goyfsligh list isnt tested that much in front of the both other lists and I created it myself for maybe 3 weeks or some and it needs more test to make competent analysis and say what the clearly advantages/disadvantages are, but as far as Ive tested it and talked to my opponents, every single player told me that this a way bigger thread than Zoo to them and that they really had a hard time fighting the Deck, IF they won.
Thats it so far from me, Greetings!

[nedleeds]

The life loss is usually capped at about 3 or 4 in a game which isn't unreasonable but i think its well worth it to not autolose to chalice and counterbalance. Against zoo and goblins, the life loss can be annoying. Luckily the sweepers can be back-breaking against goblins as flamebreak and fallout are just wraths. Zoo build with lynx are more favorable because it allows out fallouts to do something. With this build, Rhox War Monk is a huge problem sometimes. Maybe I should have more in the board for it. I tried Breath but it costing 4 was just too much and it was really only good for me against Rhox War Monk

You can just pyroblast it can't you?

[ummon]

At first,
I really have no clue why this Thread is on such a low level of competetive lists and full of weird cardchoices and lists which arent proofen in tourneys and couldnt win a single top 8 besides your local shop.
I have written for maybe 3 or 2 month a comment and I literally got NO response or reaction. Nothing.
The funny thing is that this isnt based on the fact that I have no clue about this deck or something. The thing is that this thread offers so much space for many cute cardchoices and so many people want to share their homebrew-decks and are not focusing on getting better, but the question is if that is the goal that is tried to be reached.
Nearly all other Threads on this site have got a rather high quality and are ment to get better results with the deck itself and try to improve lists and adapt to the actual metagame.
Why not here? Really.
Again, this is no offense but I think it would not be the badest thing if this thread becomes way more serious.
Burn/Sligh is a great deck and a deck to beat in the metas where you expect a lot of creature based and non CB-Blue Decks and I think it is one of the most underestimated ones.
But that definetly not means that every card where "deals blablabla damage to target X/Y" is playable... .
Imo ere are just 3 Versions of the deck where you are able to make top 8 out of larger tourneys.
One is the straight red version of Kyle Miller, the other two are both modified versions of it with a green or white splash.
Before I go into detail and find myself sorrounded by kitchentable players (which is not a bad thing at all, but not the place for those here on the source I think,yelling angry across this thread, I would like to know whats your oppinion on this threads quality (especially in comparison to other threads) and wishes how it should change (if this is wanted at all).
The thing is that I wont put energy into something where nothing comes back and a plan of becoming a better player of the deck or advancing the deck itself isnt followed.
The versions I am talking about (and which I am testing since I recognized their existences) made twice top8 out of 82 players (one piloted by myself) and made several top 8's in other countries. If there is more detail wanted and people are willing to focus on beeing competetive with this deck, I think this Thread could go somewhere.
Greetings

If you want to get Burn good at winning large tournaments, go take it to one and then post a tournament report. Right now most of the people here really don't care about big tournaments cause they don't compete in them (alright, I participated in SCG San Jose, but I did not run an optimized list simply because I did not want to spend a couple hundred bucks on grim lavamancers, goblin guides, and fetches).

[Azel Orfat]

I normally board the Vortex OUT against those decks:laugh:. It sound wrong, but I follow the plan of "shhoting" the equipped creeps with Searing Blaze/Volcanic Fallout, and this worked out very good for me.
-3 Vortex, -4 other, +4 Searing Blaze, +3 Fallouts, thats a very decent way to go I think. This won me nearly all games against Maverick/Death&Taxes and others, which arent a bad MU at all in my experience.

Yep, it sounds wrong to me :tongue::laugh: With Vortex u can prevent problems with Equipments and also with STP. Of course, burn the equipped creatures with Searing blaze/Volcanic Fallout is a good plan. In fact, it was enough in your games as you said. I just say that I would board out other thing than Sulfuric Vortex.



At this moment, I'm not very sure about Duergar. One of its advantages over Vexing is that it can deal with other artifacts apart from COTV. The problem is that I don't really know if it's worth against Jitte.

I'm also very confused at this moment about playing mono-red or with white splash. I think that Lynx Burn is better than mono-red in problematic matches. So, it makes sense to me playing it over mono-red, considering a big tournament. But how is the difference between them in those pairings?

I think that Lynx is good against Countertop because it can make a great damage before the coming of the lock, so it's usually a STP/FOW target. On the other hand, mono-red has Sulfuric Vortex in main that it's great against Counterbalance. Then, not a big difference IMO

Against combo Lynx is a great creature. Also white versions can run Ethersworn Canonist over Pyrostatic Pillar. Canonist can't be duressed but TES hasn't usually Burning Wish target to deal with Pillar, right? So I think it's hard to say which is better. I've also considered that it's not great to run 4 Canonist because it's not very useful to see 2 of them. (Same effect and both can be dealt with a single spree). So I think it's better to complement 3 of them with a single Mindbreak Trap or a single Pillar.

Against Leyline of Sanctity, Lynx can be very useful. Mono-red can also board in Volcanic Fallouts to help a little. I even board the Vexings... Anyway, I think that Leyline is not as dangerous as COP:Red. The game plan is hard/a little sad :laugh: but there are some options, even more if they go for an aggressive mulligan. Sulfuric Vortex can be a great help here.

About mono-red I love that u can run Vortex maindeck without problems (If I want to introduce Vortex I usually board Lynx out) and you also gain Volcanic Fallout that can ensure the tribal pairings.

…hard choice for me. What would be your choice for a big tournament/diverse meta?

[I am the brainwasher]

I think if you really have no clue about the meta you are going to compete in, I would play Lynx-Burn or Goyfsligh. If you assume that there will be a lot of tribal and other heavy creature based decks (which are definetly played in the last time) I would play Mono.Red, thats what I did.
Personally, I would play Mono-Red all the time, but this is based on my love for Mono-colored decks and is nothing which is a competent statement overall, even I am thinking that the Mono-Red Version is for itself more stable.
As said before, I still think that Burn is one of the most underestimated Decks if you have a good version of it and know how to play it properly, which seems more easy at first sight than it is in the end, even if its one of the easiest decks of the format.

[pocari79]

Went to a small tournament this weekend. I made some changes to the deck since I felt like there was going to be a lot of NO Bant or Bant aggro. First, here's the list:

13 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
2 Breath of Darigaaz
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Flamebreak
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Fireblast

Sideboard:

4 Urza's Rage
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Volcanic Fallout
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Combust

I totally retooled the sideboard to go against Bant. Combusts are mainly against Rhox War Monk and Urza's Rage would be uncounterable damage. I added the relic so I can kill creatures like goyfs and knights with Volcanic Fallout + Relic. Smash is there just for Jittes and vials.

Only 14 people at the tournament for 4 rounds and cut to top 8.

Round 1 - U/B Merfolk

He made some odd play decisions like deciding to chump block my guides by vialing in his cursecatchers in both games. I boarded in urza's rages, fallout and combusts against him and the combusts were actually fairly useful as they could pretty much kill any merfolk that carried a jitte and I didn't have to worry about counterspells.

Win 1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 - NO Bant

This was fairly horrible as he got countertop assembled by turn 3 and then turn 4 he played a war monk and he was able to counter my fireblast targeting the war monk. I didn't have much of a hand left after that so he took game 1 . Game 2, I boarded in all the Urza's rages, relics, fallout and combusts. I had 2 combusts in my opening hand but he led with 2 goyfs that were 4/5 by turn 4. I couldn't draw any of my relics and that's the end of that.

Lose 1-1 (2-2)

Round 3 - Zoo

These games were fairly depressing as game 1, he had 2 nacatls beating me down and my entire grip was magma jets and fallouts and I couldn't find a bolt/flamebreak at all. Game 2 wasn't much better as I had the flamebreaks in my hand but only had 2 land and he beat me down with a goyf and a nacatl. Also, it was pretty bad that I had nothing I could side in. I think i replaced the fallouts with rages but that doesn't seem very optimal.

Lose 1-2 (2-4)

Round 4 - Rock

Suck being matched up with a friend and it should be winner makes top 8. nothing much remarkable about this matchup except that I was worried that he would be able to plow a big knight in response to me killing him. that ended up happening but I was ready with more burn than he could handle.

Win 2-2 (4-4)

Top 8 - Zoo

Again, this was pretty depressing. Game 1 was totally my fault as I kept a 1 land hand with a goblin guide and 3 1cc burn spells but wasn't able to draw a land until turn 3 and by that time he had a 4/5 goyf in play and managed to bolt me and helix me as well. Game 2 was bad as well as he mulled to 4 and yet still was able to beat me. Apparently he mulled to 3 fetch and steppe lynx and proceeded to rip teeg, goyf and a helix. I was stuck on 2 lands and even cast 2 magma jets to get rid of 4 cards on top of my library and wasn't able to get a mountain so I could flamebreak away the teeg.

Lose 2-3 (4-6)

Afterthoughts:

This was one of the worst performances I've ever had with the burn deck ever. I have to admit that the sideboard didn't work out the way I planned. I never drew a relic all day long so I was never able to kill goyfs. Also, the deck had way too many cards at the 3 slot in the maindeck and sideboard. Felt that it made the deck very clunky. I used to like the Breaths but again, it just felt very underwhelming today. It never got to kill anything major or I was never able to get to 4 mana to sweep for 4. The Combusts was actually really good against merfolk which was something that I didn't really think about. I'll probably leave some combusts in the deck to make that matchup a bit easier to handle.

Changes I'd like to make

Maindeck: -2 Sulfuric vortex, -2 Breath of Darigaaz. Not really sure what I would like to replace it with right now but certainly something 2cc or less.

Sideboard: -1 Combust, -4 Urza's Rage, -4 Relic of Progenitus. I'll probably want to add in +3 Searing Blaze for sure so the aggro matchup become easier. Again, i'll have to think about the rest of the sideboard.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

[I am the brainwasher]

Alright, there you go.
I can just recommend the lists posted above by myself or Arzel Orfat (which are all based on the list of Kyle Miller, he earns the congrats if you ask me. He created a list which is just literally the best version you could play and made Burn competetive outside the niche of small tourneys and random wins).
Sounds easy (maybe a bit cocky) but I tell you that because those lists solve nearly all the problems you have with the deck by itself.
If you analyse those lists, you recognize that they combine the most efficient Burnspells of the Format with creatures that are all threats on their own and need to be handled in the early game (which are also the best one drops a Burn deck could ask for). Everything that doesnt fit in those categories isnt a good choice if it doesnt handle serious problems of the deck without having a huge drawback in other MU's.
Lets look at the cards of your deck that doesnt belong in this category:
Barbarian Ring:
Deals damage to you -> puts you behind in races. Makes you vulnerable to wastelands -> those are normally just dead and blow up THEIR lands in response to PoP's. Doesnt do anything in the early game. You really dont want to spent mana for saccing a land which deals 2 dmg, especially in combination with Fireblast where you cant sacc. it to.
Besides that, you want to spend your mana most of the times to other cards. The thought of having lategame power against decks where its necessary are solved by your sideboard or Sulfuric Vortex, which is also a house against Jitte and RWM.
Magma Jet:
2 Mana for 2 dmg is just awkward. I see the point of wanting cards that fix your draw a bit but this isnt necessary if you play more than 10 fetches (in combination with Grim also). The card is not able to let you race the opponents clock and is just underwhelming. Every card in the deck should deal 3 dmg for 1 Mana or at least 4+ for 2 or lesser mana. Again the card is ment to have lategame power but isnt very good at doing so, really. I guess this is the card where everyone else has got different thoughts on, but I tested it myself and it is NOT necessary in this deck and creates more problems for the deck than it solves any.
Breath of Darigaaz:
Looks nice but to be honest, you dont get in touch with 4 mana when you want to see that card. This is a absoluteley random win and hasnt got any consistency. Volcanic Fallout should sweep the board enough to put you ahead. Grim on RWM and then Volcanic Fallout seems better to me than playing Breathe and getting Dazed/Forced or whatever. When you play Breath kicked, you burn yourself for 4, which doesnt seem as such a good idea to me.
Flamebreak:
Doesnt hit Flying creatures and is counterable. The idea is to burn away Cats and Apes, but Searing Blaze does a better job here. 3 dmg to you isnt that good also. Not the badest card I've seen but still underwhelming.

Your list looks like you tried desperately to put yourself ahead via all those mini-board sweepers, but it turned out the other way around, and this isnt such a surprise IMO. Again, no offense.
It is way better to Burn out the opponent faster than he can hit you with his guys, which is impossible out of a nutdraw with your deck. Burn efficient, handle the few threads youll se in the games and win. Hoping desperatly that you resolve a boardsweeper which COULD save your ass is just wrong IMO.
I win most of the times against the decks you saw in that tourney and those ARE indeed good MU for Burn.
The lack of Sulfuric Vortex is also a huge disadvantage and I would add more of those rather than cutting any, besides you are willing to splash, then play it in side. Jitte, Rhox War Monk and StP on the own Goyf/KotR/Fat-Guy are not that bad when you got that in play.
Every single card fits just perfect in Millers list and again, I wouldnt change a single card in the non-land maindeck besides the Metadecision of moving Vortex to the sb., but I havent a good feeling at doing so to be honest. Vortex is huge.

[TheArchitect]

I ended up going back to the exact Kyle Miller list (the one i was using before had MD searing blaze, SB sulfuric vortex). I played it at Jupiter Games lotus event last weekend and man did I have some unexpected results. Without going into too much detail: I LOST to fish BEAT enchantress and then LOST to goblins (all 2-1/2-1 respectively). The matchs were all a load of fun and a good experience but at that point i dropped, i wasnt going to make top 16 with 2 losses out of 3 rounds and terrible tie breakers.

In addition to having terrible luck against goblins and merfolk (have in mull to 5 in both matches) I think part of the loss might have been the MD sulfuric Vortex. Against fish my opening hand game one had 3 of them in it so I went to 6. And in goblins it was just a dead card game 1 cause it was a close race.

Sulfuric vortex helps with a lot of matchups but I really dont think I just justify running 4 of them MD. What are peoples thoughts on running them SB and the searing blazes MD like I had been doing prior to last week? I didn't test the MD sulfurics much, it was a last minute change and I just trusted it would do well since its a proven list so maybe, but after using them a lot I didnt really care for them as much as searing blazes.

The only problem I have then is that searing blaze I often find is a dead card too (like when its a just a cursecatcher in play, or they have no creatures at all). I tried steppe linx in that slot for a while too and, as amazing as it is turn 1/2, didn't care for it either cause in topdeck mode he's useless. For me at least, searing blaze, sulfuric vortex and steppe linx all seem just not quite right; relative to all the other cards in the deck, they are useless the most. I think this one slot in the deck has the biggest area for improvement.

[Azel Orfat]

As said before, I still think that Burn is one of the most underestimated Decks
Well, better for us. Less COP, Chill, etc :wink:


Sulfuric vortex helps with a lot of matchups but I really dont think I just justify running 4 of them MD. What are peoples thoughts on running them SB and the searing blazes MD like I had been doing prior to last week? I didn't test the MD sulfurics much, it was a last minute change and I just trusted it would do well since its a proven list so maybe, but after using them a lot I didnt really care for them as much as searing blazes.

The only problem I have then is that searing blaze I often find is a dead card too (like when its a just a cursecatcher in play, or they have no creatures at all). I tried steppe linx in that slot for a while too and, as amazing as it is turn 1/2, didn't care for it either cause in topdeck mode he's useless. For me at least, searing blaze, sulfuric vortex and steppe linx all seem just not quite right; relative to all the other cards in the deck, they are useless the most. I think this one slot in the deck has the biggest area for improvement.

I think that Searing Blaze is a sideboard card (I haven't tested it in main). In fact, most of the lists go with them in side. Sulfuric Vortex is neither great in main but it won't be a dead card. The only problem I see with Sulfuric Vortex is that if you mull to a hand with a single land, its cost 3 can be painful. Vortex in main let you have those slots free in side. Patrick Sullivan ran Flame Rift instead of them. A mate of a spanish forum also proposed a list with Hellspark Elemental in those slots. IMO the best options are Vortex or Lynx.


I also wanted to continue with the Pillar/Canonist issue. What do u think that is better against Spiral Tide? Canonist is susceptible of Snap and Pillar of Spell Spierce. It seems difficult to say again... Could you illuminate me pls?:laugh:

[I am the brainwasher]

I would prefer the Pyrostatic Pillar. I tested against Spiral/Spring Tide with Pillar and it always did a great job for me. Getting Snap!ed isnt that likeley as getting a Pillar bounced IMO. Getting Spell Pierced is awkward, but I think if its not the case, they spend most of the times 1-2 full turns +getting dmg in face to handle that Pillar, which is definetly necessary at some point.
As said above, I also see Mindbreak Trap in that Anti-Combo Slot, but Pillar is more flexible and wanders in in some other MU's as well.
I do understand your thought because most Tide lists play less Snap! to be resilient to Spot-Removal and here the Cannonist COULD do a better job, but I still prefer the Pillar. Finding Fireblast(s) due to Time Spiral is also kinda nice and whoops unskilled players asses, just a note.
I think this MU depends hardly on his list and sb, but is on the play winnable if you keep a decent hand, especially if he is playing much with the Faerie/Snap! mana engine, Spot removal? I got plenty!

[SpikeyMikey]

I have to be honest. I love seeing someone drop a turn 1 Goblin Guide against me. Sure, it's often going to get through for 2-4 points, but it's also going to draw me cards and activate my Swords. Even if I have the StP in my opening grip, I'll probably let it swing once or twice before blowing it out. And after turn 2 I'm dropping something big enough that Guide is irrelevant anyway. The two things I'm most scraed of and will play around are PoP and Vortex. Otherwise, I'll either race, using counters to slow you down or I'll stick a RWM and just run you down that way. Either way, the more cards I see, the happier I am. I also like seeing Pillar as it just helps me race. Unlike Vortex, you're probably taking more damage from it than I am, since my threats stay on the board and yours are one-shot. If you want to beat me when I'm playing Bant, you need some form of recurring damage otherwise I'll probably stabalize and beat you with big dudes. And Guide isn't getting there.

[Azel Orfat]

@ I am the brainwasher: Thx for the information. I think I'm gonna return to monored build :laugh:

@ SpikeyMikey: IMO there is no doubt that Goblin Guide is one of the best creatures for Burn (if not the best one). “Classic Legacy Burn” went for virtual card advantage where Goblin Guide doesn't fit very well. So it hasn't too much sense to me running Guide alone. Builds we have been talking about is just a little different concept. You run enough creatures to can support target removal. I mean that if you STP my Guide, probably other creatures could do a great job.

[I am the brainwasher]

@Spikey Mikey:
Why the hell should someone board Pillars against BANT? That makes that much sense like boarding it against CAN Thresh or boarding Searing Blaze against TES... .
I playtested heavily against BANT, NO-BANT, 4C-Countertop and they are all winnable, pre and postboard. Sure, not the MU you see likeley, but still winnable, definetly. Underestimating Goblin Guide can be your ass faster than you think and I would be careful with that, regardless how you think the game WILL turn out in the way you thought it'll be. He is kinda the Lackey of the Burn deck and is a thread on its own to many decks, especially with a Lavamancer on the Table. Degrading the card doesnt seem that clever and makes no sense to me here. He shows you what the opponent is playing, flips cards to CB so you know whats on Top (in the earlier game) and if he hits twice, he was a Fireblast for actually 1 mana that is able to buy you time as a blocker, not that bad IMO. I had those scenarios where he drew my opponent several cards, but that didnt had such a great impact to the board that I got upset with him. Besides that, if your opponent has got no 1 or 2 drop he is willing to play, (or just isnt able to do so, why éver this should happen) drawing a card is a disadvantage because he needs to discard now, also happened to me.

One thing in general: This deck has an awkward Dredge MU. Ancestors Chosen is gg if you were unable to cast a Vortex and preventing this via Volcanic Fallout and Searing Blaze postboard is a rare case. Beeing faster is nearly impossible (especially against good players which are making correct mulligan decisions) and combined with Cabal Therapies its very hard to win here. In the last tourney I played in the 7th round against Dredge and won the 1 first game on the draw (wtf?), lost the 2nd due to Ancestors, energy drinking for 25+, and lost the 3rd round because I was screwed heavily, other wise I would have won that.
BUT my opponent made several mistakes and could have won G1 and could have sealed G3 faster and better, but didnt saw his possibilities (Ithink, I play this deck sometimes by myself). When you are playing in a smaller tourney and you know that there will be a lot of Dredge, I would play Crypt, otherwise you'll have a really hard time.

[thatoneguy]

Has anyone thought about using needle drop? Sure it only does one damage, but it draws a card. Its a red card that provides card draw, and one damage for one mana, how could it be bad? Just thought i would throw that out there.

[Azel Orfat]

It's not good because it's a bad topdeck (main reason). If you worry about stability, just try with 4 Sulfuric Vortex main. They are great. You just need to put a good pressure at first and then seal the game with them (well, may be not so easy but more or less :laugh:). They usually let you finish the game in those dangerous turns where you start to depend on topdeck.

[thatoneguy]

ok, the vortex sounds good. I guess i wanted to know about needle drop because i already have them. I guess its time to start looking for a vortex.

[Mr. Safety]

Vortex is a really fast clock, but I wouldn't play it without at least 20 mana sources. I personally use 18 lands and 2x Chrome Mox (which is great for getting rid of excess Vortexes...or just providing explosive starts and giving me more artifacts for Shrapnel Blast.)

I've also been using Cursed Scroll x1 in my burn deck, which has been really REALLY good. Grim Lavamancer dies to removal but scroll costs a full 3 to activate. Still, Scroll gets in for a good 2-6 damage, working REALLY GREAT when in top-deck mode, and is more resilient to removal.

[Boots]

Played today for my first time in Tokyo. Some things were different than the US style of things, but in the end it was just good old legacy. Playing burn today I went 3-2 in a 14 person tournament, though I intentionally conceded the last round to maximize prize payouts.

18 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Volcanic Fallout
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
2 Keldon Mauraders

Side
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Flamebreak
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Round 1 I was paired against Team America, my first time playing legacy since the new year, and my first time over seas. Largely they game played close until I punted missing a chance to deal damage on an end step. This cost game one, and game 2 he rode early tempo to victory. Not the greatest start, but I was happy to be playing again. Sideboarding saw the inclusion of I believe pithing needles, though for what I do not recall.

Round 2 was Elves. Game one the standard burn route was working until he gained an effective 5 life of of a singleton Essence Warden. Games 2 and three saw board sweeps and pyrostatic pillar gradual eat him away. Close games, but preventing him from playing scads of elves due to the damage was good. Out went PoP and Magma jet for pillars and flamebreak.

Round 3 saw me against dredge. Game 1 I managed to keep him off of bridges to a bolted goblin guide and just drew enough to finish him with the help of fallout vs some tokens. Game 2 he whiffed on dredges while I slowly got through a land glut and killed him. In was faerie macabre, out was lava spike I believe.

Round 4 was Blue/White/Black. Finishing it in two I managed keep the damage heavy while keeping him off anything that would gain life. Black Crusaders were awkward for a time, but resolving a vortex and fireblast won the race.

Round 5 as I said was conceded to ensure him the best prize support, as bonuses went to going undefeated. What he actually was playing was a Painter's Grindstone deck seemingly built into an ANT shell. Playing some sample games without sideboarding won me the first, lost the second two. If I had sideboarded for this match I would have most likely stuck the pithing needle route.

[Azel Orfat]

Curious list here by Patrick Sullivan: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833&iddeck=42252

What do you think about FOD in Burn? I suppose that it's nice to have a big creature against tribal and it can also help against Leyline of Sanctity. But on the other hand it doesn't seem a good topdeck for Burn.

I'm also very surprised about the 8 REB considering that cards (even sideboard cards) that don't make damage are "dangerous" in Burn. It really seems very rare to me :smile:. Has anyone any idea about the reasons for it? Perhaps the surge of Spiral Tide/S&T? Against what decks would you board 8 REB?

[TheArchitect]

I was surprised to see that list make top 8. I don't think FoD is terrible but there are better options for that slot. I disagree about it being a bad topdeck, in fact its probably the best thing you could draw when in topdeck mode since you'll have nothing better to spend mana on and, for a single card, it could potentially dish out a lot of damage.

8 REBs seems like way too many, I'm curious what he thought of their usefulness. I suppose the MUs you need them for are going to be the toughest ones, and the MUs you dont need them in are already pretty good ones. But I usually don't even run 4 let alone 8.

[Zoomer3989]

Has anyone thought of or tried Searing Blaze mained, say over Flame Rift in Sullivan's list? The deck that I have built is essentially his list, minus FOD for a set of Keldon, 20 land (8 fetches) and Searing Blaze over the Flame Rift slot. The Blazes seem to be unfair enough to make it worth maining in just enough matchups that I'd be likely to see.

[Azel Orfat]

I disagree about it being a bad topdeck, in fact its probably the best thing you could draw when in topdeck mode since you'll have nothing better to spend mana on and, for a single card, it could potentially dish out a lot of damage.
Sure it's not a horrible topdeck but I think all creatures are usually bad topdecks in Burn

@Zoomer3989: Have you already tried them in main? Anyway I think you need more fetches (common monored builds go with 12)

[Zoomer3989]

Sure it's not a horrible topdeck but I think all creatures are usually bad topdecks in Burn

@Zoomer3989: Have you already tried them in main? Anyway I think you need more fetches (common monored builds go with 12)

Yeah, I've tried Blaze mained and I actually liked it because my meta has just enough creature decks to warrant it, and when it works its 2 Bolts in one which is pretty unfair against things like Noble Hierach, Lackey, and Nacatl.

I only have sets of Arid Mesa / Scalding Tarn, but I tried that with 12 Mountains and 4 Grims and I'm not sure many more is necessary. I was getting them often enough and I felt like it helped my later draws by not being landflooded as much. I might try 10 fetches / 10 Mountains, but I think more of them interferes with Fireblast too much.

[lorddotm]

Patrick is the master of all decks red. You really should be looking at his deck and instead of criticizing it, test it.

[TheArchitect]

First off congratulations on the finish lordotm! Second, I apologize if I came off sounding overly critical, but I was genuinely surprised to see that deck perform so well, since I have tested FoD before and found him unimpressive. Its also a fairly uncommon choice among successful burn decks. And I wasn't being critical of the REBs, I am curious why he choose to run 8 and if they proved worth it or took up space in the SB.

As for searing blaze: I use them MD in well known metas where there will be almost entirely creature based aggro. Against mostly creatureless decks like storm combo, S&T, etc. it is a complete waste of card. Since those are burns worst matchups, and aggro is a fairly good MU generally, I would keep them in the SB unless you know the meta very well, and not much it is combo. But when it is useful, it is very good and even in topdeck mode its not completely useless. You can crack a fetch you've been saving, wait for a land draw, or just kill a lacky, bob, etc with it. You defiantly need 8-12 fetches to fully take advantages of it though.

[Boots]

Figure of Destiny I can see it having strong points. But at what point does it become to mana intensive, to slow? To me the best use of it would be working through hate cards, which are so intensely strong against red as their are enchantments. But at the same time, the decks FoD seems to excel against either have means to remove it, as in decks supporting white, or something along the lines of Merfolk.

If I can get my hands on some at a decent price I will test them, though the given meta I play is much different than the US I still feel.

[uanlayen]

Goblin Guide in legacy ? ....................... NO !!!!! bad people 'smack' what the hell is wrong with you its a bad card. Only reason its played in standard is the lack of jackal pup or anything like jackal pup, just you see what happens when you draw your opponent into ALL there spot removal and counter spells because they have filtering through all there lands courtesy of your Goblin guide. If you feel you must run something like it. Jackal Pup --------> Goblin Guide by some considerable distance.

[Vilhis]

Goblin Guide in legacy ? ....................... NO !!!!! bad people 'smack' what the hell is wrong with you its a bad card. Only reason its played in standard is the lack of jackal pup or anything like jackal pup, just you see what happens when you draw your opponent into ALL there spot removal and counter spells because they have filtering through all there lands courtesy of your Goblin guide. If you feel you must run something like it. Jackal Pup --------> Goblin Guide by some considerable distance.

Guide is one of the best cards in legacy burn and by far better than Jackal Pup. Its a one mana 2/2 with haste! You really have no idea of what you are talking about.

[Sims]

Guide is one of the best cards in legacy burn and by far better than Jackal Pup. Its a one mana 2/2 with haste! You really have no idea of what you are talking about.

Please don't feed the trolls.

[Sims]

firstly you retard no one cares about the extra point of toughness its completely irrelevant secondly trading haste on a creature for drawing your opponent an extra is a dubious piece of logic at best. A huge portion of the field of decks in legacy feed off of card acceleration/drawing namely combo your not telling me a combo player cares about taking an extra couple of points of damage if it will accelerate him into his cheesy win. Thirdly and most importantly this is a thread about Burn decks NOT aggro burn there is some argument for running say keldovan marauders in your deck because at the very least it will do a shock. You sir are an idiot running a creature package in your burn deck will feed your opponents removal and ultimately loose you the game.

This may be the burn thread, but please watch the flames and keep it civil.

Goblin Guide has been pretty staple in burn lists since it broke into fast Zoo variants after Zendikar was printed. The card is usually 4 to 6 damage for 1 mana, at the cost of occasionally drawing your opponent a card. This typically does not matter, because that's potentially 2 less bolts you need to have to perform your turn 3 goldfish.

When your opponent plays tarmogoyfs I'd rather be sitting behind a Guide as a chump blocker than a Jackal Pup. Pup will usually get through for less damage (haste is relevant) and likely will also end up dealing you at least 3 damage, which is also relevant in conjunction with all of our fetchlands and possibly flame rifts.

Jackal Pup hasn't been relevant in years. Goblin Guide has been.

[I am the brainwasher]

All Burn decks that made Top8 in the last time in relevant tournaments had 4 Goblin Guides for a reason. I played the deck as well as another player in an 80+ ppl tourney and I made 6th, he made 2nd place very easy with the deck. Only lost to flood or screw as far as I can tell for myself. Goblin Guide's trigger doesnt matter at all and is sometimes a huge advantage because you can make your decisions with additional information.
My question is how many tourneys you played with him to make such weird statements. I really think that youre just trollin, otherwise you wouldnt be so rude and stubborn, sry but thats it. I made my opponent draw like 3-4 cards with him and i had to mull to 5 and you know what? I won, mainly to the Guide. Pls dont call other player names when they are just right at their points... .

[TheDarkshineKnight]

So, I take it Kiln Fiend is no longer relevant? Tis a very sad thing.

[I am the brainwasher]

I dont think that kiln Fiend became irrelevant. To be honest, havent tested it enough by myself but I am in knowledge that some players had great results with it, which isnt THAT surprising to me. In the right MU's he is definetly nuts and allows much faster goldfish's. I am just not so convinced because he also can be big downside and is a horrible topdeck. If it works out its fine but I see it more as a metachoice or would place it in another built in general. he might be kickass with Searing Blaze maindeck.
I think that Burns potential is still underestimated and I wouldnt be too surprised if the deck and its variant make more top8's in the near future. Luckily there isnt that much CB-decks because the meta has grown to something CB really cant beat constant IMO and thats a sign to play the deck even more IMO. Everything that lays down dudes is a good to even MU with the correct sb. Less RWM also. The thing is that Stoneforge Mystic is really in a lot of decks so I would be careful to cut the Vortex, because otherwise you have a really tough time against Jitte in G1.
In general: I am really looking forward to see this deck beeing recognized as a serious competitor and would like to see a lot of different versins of it, making good results.

[Azel Orfat]

Again with Sullivan's list (we need a report! :laugh:) I think that the redundant REBs could be good to ensure having one when our opponent plays the Counterbalance. Because once it comes into play, REB becomes near useless. On the other hand, I find them bad on the draw. You want to start with Guide/FOD/Grim but it wouldn't let you mana open for an hypothetical turn 2 Counterbalance.

About FOD, it isn't explosive in the first turns and after that, a 4/4 won't be too relevant if we have a big creature in front like Tarmogoyf. That's why I think that Keldon Marauders fit great in Burn (They don't need combat phase to ensure damage). In its favor, FOD let you more freedom about burning creatures because you have more reach with them. And it also helps against Leyline, Counterbalance and mana flood.

Any thoughts about those choices?

[Masa88]

Also I want people to remember that it will NOT give any kind of card advantage to opponents if Guide will show nonland cards. Actually, it's better than a normal 2/2 Haste man when it shows top card of opponent's library, as you can plan your next turns basing on information gotten with GG.

About FOD, I personally don't like that card that much, as Legacy is format of creatures mostly. So basically you use 3 turns, 5 mana to get 4/4 which might get bolted on second boost... is it really worth of it? In a meta full of Leyline of sanctity, it might be a good add-on, but in a general meta I wouldn't use it. Against counterbalance you must ensure that it will stay on the battlefield, and you must cast it before Balance hits the table. It's as dead as GG or bolt if you topdeck it...

Kiln Fiend is an interesting creature because it will hit REALLY big or miss. That depends on whether your opponent manages to get a removal on it (As I believe that blockers aren't that good as they will get removed out of Kiln's way)

As for the REBs and Pyroblasts, I personally wouldn't use Pyroblasts in the side, because 3-4 REBs will be enough. Even against counterbalance, you only need Pithing Needle and REBs. And if you're using them, Ratchet Bombs are good too, as it sweeps Tarmos and Balance away in a single card (or Thopter Foundry if you're playing against URW Balance)

And Lastly, I really don't care whether burn is recognized as a "Deck to Beat", as underestimation is our greatest weapon :P One time I won against Counterbalance because he was quite arrogant about the matchup :D He kooked he was like "How can I lose against Burn?!?". And that my friend, is the reason I still love playing Burn!

[Azel Orfat]

About REB, I meant it was bad against CB on the draw, sorry. (I suppose it was obvious but I'll edit anyway)


As for the REBs and Pyroblasts, I personally wouldn't use Pyroblasts in the side, because 3-4 REBs will be enough. Even against counterbalance, you only need Pithing Needle and REBs. And if you're using them, Ratchet Bombs are good too, as it sweeps Tarmos and Balance away in a single card (or Thopter Foundry if you're playing against URW Balance

I think that Vexing Shusher is the only real good way to deal with Counterbalance. Also Sulfuric Vortex can be a good help.

[Boots]

What are the general thoughts on Searing Blaze main board in legacy?

[pocari79]

What are the general thoughts on Searing Blaze main board in legacy?

If you know your meta is all aggro, sure. if it's not then you just gave yourself some un-needed dead draws. and this deck doesn't need more dead draws against combo and control.

[Koby]

If the meta is already full of Aggro, then Flamebreak would be a better card to run. X for 1's are much better than 1 for 1's, and it deals the same damage to your opponent.

[Zoomer3989]

What are the general thoughts on Searing Blaze main board in legacy?

Personally, I like it. Clearly though, it's a meta choice depending on how much non-creature combo you see.

[Stifle]

I think that Vexing Shusher is the only real good way to deal with Counterbalance.

This.

Shusher is effectively the condom of the burn deck in a whorehouse where you have no idea what kind of STD-infected orifice you're about to plunge your dick into.

[Amon Amarth]

Again with Sullivan's list (we need a report! :laugh:) I think that the redundant REBs could be good to ensure having one when our opponent plays the Counterbalance. Because once it comes into play, REB becomes near useless. On the other hand, I find them bad on the draw. You want to start with Guide/FOD/Grim but it wouldn't let you mana open for an hypothetical turn 2 Counterbalance.

About FOD, it isn't explosive in the first turns and after that, a 4/4 won't be too relevant if we have a big creature in front like Tarmogoyf. That's why I think that Keldon Marauders fit great in Burn (They don't need combat phase to ensure damage). In its favor, FOD let you more freedom about burning creatures because you have more reach with them. And it also helps against Leyline, Counterbalance and mana flood.

Any thoughts about those choices?

I really don't see why he would play REB's at all. I've never been a fan of the 8 Blast Plan and there is no way I'd run it now. I'd much rather board in Shusher against CB. Sulfuric Vortex is also good against CB and deals with lifegain as well. I prefer it over Sullivan's Flame Rift.

I hate Figure of Destiny in burn. You have to pump so much mana into this thing to even get a decent threat. It requires too much babysitting. I'd rather have Marauders or Hellspark.

[Boots]

It is not per say the SB match up why you see so many blasts. Other matches, such as the Spiral Tide, show and tell, Fish, as well as to some extents Painter Grindstone is where you see more value in it.

Playing again tonight I was fairly happy with blazes main board, though it warrants more testing. Though it was awkward at time as Japan is really big on Phyrexian Crusader. Ran very well save a reanimator match up where Iona trumped me in two games, as well as a discard/sinkhole deck running crusader. I've yet to play flame rift myself, but will be playing them sometime soon as I have some cards in transit from the US.

[Amon Amarth]

Why would you want to play Blasts in those matches though? Are you not confident in your matchup against Fish? Keeping a Painter out of play is pretty easy. You already (or at least should be) playing Volcanic Fallout in the SB for Tribal decks. I think Pillar is as good or better than red blasts against Spiral Tide and damage doesn't matter in this matchup. There really isn't a lot you can do in the combo matches but I'd rather play something that's synergistic with my deck rather than slow it down and try and play their game.

[Tzunamii777]

Burn won 1st place in a 118 players tournament on 4/9. Gratz Manuel Gómez!
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/12766

[Top Deck]

Burn won 1st place in a 118 players tournament on 4/9. Gratz Manuel Gómez!
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/12766

The build look very interesting to say the least. Why more fetch than basics?

[Mr. Safety]

Grim Lavamancer is why he played more fetches than basics. They thin the deck out so he draws gas, and then fills his graveyard quickly for those 4 Grims.

[I am the brainwasher]

I really dont want to repeat myself (and dont like it as well) but again this is the nearly exact list which is announced as beeing the nearly most competetive. If someone hasnt noticed, its Millers list with the small change of cutting Sulfuric Vortex for Figure of Destiny. Those 4 Slots are the only ones that you can play around with, this is still my oppinion.
The maindeck is supertight and all interacts well with eachother and I can just recommend to play those 56 cards maindeck and make your own thoughts and ideas towards the 4 free slots. Fancy cards like Flamebreak or Magma Jet are bad, literally, and arent needed at all. Dont blame me, playtest the deck and board well, then you'll see. Again this is no offense.

Towards the deck itself:
It isnt that easy to play as most players think it is. I saw so many players loosing with burn because of horrible lists, no clue about building a well balanced sb and also boarding plans and crucial mistakes in gameplay that it makes me wanna scream and getting a bit upset that the deck isnt getting the attention it deserves in terms of beeing a very consitent and stable deck. Nearly each other deck has got a core where you really shouldnt change a single card so why not here? But I guess thats just the fact because there are a ton of cards which deal X/Y damage in comparison to other cards like Cantrips and Tribals.
When I lookt at most Burn-lists its just like someones playing Goblins with cards like Goblin Ballon Brigade or Goblin Swineriders instead of Ringleaders and matrons... .

[Jack]

Ok, so I registered here on The Source just ti post in this thread, that I am reading since several months, and now I have to say that I totally agree with you, brainwasher. I am a Burn player and I hate seeing lists that pack suboptimal cards like Hellspark Elemental, Incinerate, or even Fork or Reverberate.
Also, a lot of person seem to think that playing Burn is the easiest thing in Magic, but they are just wrong. Burn/Sligh requires a lot of experience to be played at his best.

This said, i just wanted you to now that here in Italy the deck that splashes white for Steppe Lynx is gaining popularity over his older Mono-Red brother thanks to his performing results. The main deck looks exactly as brainwasher wrote, so there's not that much to say about it: Lynx (over main-deck vortex) ensures very explosive starts, and while a mediocre top-deck in mid-late game, that's not really where you want to be with burn, and in the worst case she can just sit there waiting to chump block a Goyf or a Reliquary, trying to buy you more time to topdeck that Fireblast.
In addition, the 2 Plateaus are not to destabilizing for our manabase, cause when we fetch for a Plateau it means that we just cast a Steppe Lynx, so even if they waste it, it's not that much of a big deal for them (Sulfuric Vortex was the last 3 drop in our main deck).

[affinitypimp]

Anyone ever considered Runeflare Trap on the sideboard for those annoying brainstorm decks?? i been playtesting it against my playgroup and its been doing upwards of 6 damage for 1 red mana.... i know its a S/B card for those Jace TMS and Brainstorm and standstill decks, but once i side her in, it changes the way my buddies would play their brainstorms...

[Clark Kant]

Manamorphose is a better way to fill the yard for Grim Lavamancer. It also lets you play a 56 card list (and combos with Kiln Fiend if you opt to play that, though Kiln Fiend seems subpar).

Creature [12]
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Grim Lavamancer

Instant [15]
3 Manamorphose
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorcery [12]
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

Enchantment [2]
2 Sulfuric Vortex

Land [19]
7 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

[Tiago_B.]

Mr Brainwasher is absolutly RIGHT....the goblin example actually was amusing :tongue:

I had a burn deck for like 7/8 years (lightning bolt, mogg fanatic, ball lightning, browbeat, etc), never changed it because i only played casual, and it was already capable of easily raping my friends.

Now i want to 'upgrade it' so i can take it to legacy events, my favorite format, and its cheaper since i already have a part of the cards. The list should pretty much like this:

Creatures - 12

4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Spark Elemental

Instants - 12

4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress

Sorceries - 12

4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike

Enchantments - 4

4 Sulfuric Vortex

Lands - 20

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
10 Mountain

SD is a good question. I have no clue about the most played decktypes in my area, but Vexing Shusher and Pyrostatic Pillar seem very important and probably are going to be 4-of. I also like Searing Blaze, specially with fetches.

Is Volcanic Fallout that important? I already have 4 but never used them.....

----------------------------------------

I never realised how important Sulfuric Vortex was, until i experimented it. Now i think why i took so long to actually get a playset, specially because i dont have lavamancer, so its my only source of constant damage.

BTW, Goblin Guide gives us better chances of a 3/4th turn kill, so any discussion around its utility is just ridiculous. Its as important as lightning bolt, or fireblast, 'core' cards in burn.

If i had to cut out Chain Lightning (due to lack of $) what should it put in? (i dont like magma jet, scry is nice but 2cc for 2 dmg sucks big time) Maybe Flame Rift could be a good option.

[I am the brainwasher]

"SD is a good question. I have no clue about the most played decktypes in my area, but Vexing Shusher and Pyrostatic Pillar seem very important and probably are going to be 4-of. I also like Searing Blaze, specially with fetches.

Is Volcanic Fallout that important? I already have 4 but never used them...."

Volcanic Fallout is more or less important against all sort of Tribla decks, especially Goblins and Merfolk (Elves hasnt seen much play in my area and is definetly more rare, Burning Keycards is also a lot more hurting to them than other Tribals, thats my impression as far as I tested this MU). Running 2-3 is fine, if its needed depends completely on your meta but its also very useful against all kind of decks that spam the board with small bananas (Mana accelerators, utility creeps like Mother of the Runes, and stuff, also most Affinity lists) and offers very good trades.

Towards Pyrostatic pillar:
I am so confused about the card. I found myself just getting slapped by combo after turn 1 Duress so often that I nearly come to the conclusion that its not worth boarding. Sure, this is a bit exaggerated but it happens so damn often that I am kinda disappointed by the card itself. I am really thinking about dropping and playing Tormods Crypt instead. Crypt sets them off the Ill-gotten Gains loop and Ad Nauseum isnt THE plan against burn that you might have better chances with it than Pillar because beeing able to Tutorchain with Infernal isnt the typical play (even if they prefer it IF its possible).
Another upside is that you strenghten your Dredge MU which is horrible to be honest. Against an experienced player you wont come very far against Ancestors Chosen/Iona because they rape your hand with Therapy naming Vortex (Chosen is obviously weak with it) or Volcanic Fallout (Fireblast when youre ahead in the race). I would be glad to test those 4 Slots out some more because beeing so unimpressed by Pillar after testing intense against good pilots of ANT and TES.
IMO the chances of stealing a game via Crypt is nearly equal to Pillar and so it makes definetly more sense to me playing it instead. The minimal use against other decks that spit out many spells in one round isnt enough to convinve me to be honest.

Towards Shusher:
I play them as a 4 of back when CB was a DTB but luckily the number of the deck has dropped due to the Printing of Green Suns Zenith and the ridicoulous mana courve of decks like Affiniy which see tons of play atm. He is still a fine choice but I am pretty happy with a split of 3/1 or 2/2 of Smash to Smithereens (Shattering Spree is NOT necessary against neither StaXXX (Chalice Trini) like decks nor Affinity with the additional sb cards and Vortex) and Shusher and I would just play the whole playset of em if your meta is heavy blue. The thing is that another Bear can be awesome agaist Leyline but I think the decks that play those can handle creeps as well and so its not that convincing, bad that Anarchy is cc4... .

I play the following sb atm:

4 Tormods Crypt
4 Searing Blaze
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Vewxing Shusher

If you lack money for lavamancer and Chain Lightning you could assume that playing Searing Blaze maindeck and Spark Elemental could do a favour to you.
Greetings, youre welcome on criticising me on Crypt, discussion is progress!

[Tiago_B.]

I play the following sb atm:

4 Tormods Crypt
4 Searing Blaze
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Vexing Shusher

If you lack money for lavamancer and Chain Lightning you could assume that playing Searing Blaze maindeck and Spark Elemental could do a favour to you.
Greetings, youre welcome on criticising me on Crypt, discussion is progress!


I thought about that duress -> pillar problem too, im still going to test it, but crypt seems a viable option for the reasons you mentioned. Besides, its much faster than the pillar.

Smash to Smithereens also seems superior to Shattering Spree (which i use), the thing we need the most is to deal damage, and doing that on top of destroying an artifact is great.

About the Shusher, ill probably get 2-3 of them. 4 seems too much, and 1 too few. I might get 1 or 2 and then adjust to my meta.

[Anarchy]

Manamorphose is a better way to fill the yard for Grim Lavamancer. It also lets you play a 56 card list (and combos with Kiln Fiend if you opt to play that, though Kiln Fiend seems subpar).

Wouldent it be better to play Street Wraith if you want to thin the deck down. Usefull on turn one aswell.

[Scordata]

Street Wraith is a pretty bad idea. The card does nothing except replace itself for 2 life. With Manamorphse, which is also sort of dumb, at least you get to recycle your resources.

I can appreciate running fetches for lavamancer, but the perceived benefits of deck thinning are not actually worth the cost. If you are so concerned with running out of gas, try splashing blue for brainstorm. Even jankier would be running wheel of fate or browbeat.

Landing a Sulfuric Vortex actually solves the problem of running out of burn spells, because if your opponent tries to kill you, its going to cost him a lot more then the mana symbols on the card.

As far as sideboard options go, don't forget the most tech burn card ever - Ensnaring Bridge. Blasts are worth more than Shushers, it costs less to protect your spells, and makes you faster. Smash to Smithereens is pretty awesome as well. Blowing up a chrome mox in response to the imprint trigger makes me smile every time.

[Anarchy]

Well I never said it was a good idea. Just better then Manamorphose.

As for combo hate it seems you have overlooked Pyrostatic Pillar. Preaty damn awsome if you resolve it. Sure they can bounce it but its gonna cost em alot to do so. Unless they have the bounce in hand but its still a very vallid option.

[I am the brainwasher]

"As for combo hate it seems you have overlooked Pyrostatic Pillar. Preaty damn awsome if you resolve it. Sure they can bounce it but its gonna cost em alot to do so. Unless they have the bounce in hand but its still a very vallid option."

- Wrong. Not overlooked, considered not the best card for several reasons mentioned above. Sure its a vallid option but not the card I am totally convinced by. Having Bounce in hand is NOT the only option to get rid of Pillar, thats (sadly) for sure.

[Gocho]

"SD is a good question. I have no clue about the most played decktypes in my area, but Vexing Shusher and Pyrostatic Pillar seem very important and probably are going to be 4-of. I also like Searing Blaze, specially with fetches.

Is Volcanic Fallout that important? I already have 4 but never used them...."

Volcanic Fallout is more or less important against all sort of Tribla decks, especially Goblins and Merfolk (Elves hasnt seen much play in my area and is definetly more rare, Burning Keycards is also a lot more hurting to them than other Tribals, thats my impression as far as I tested this MU). Running 2-3 is fine, if its needed depends completely on your meta but its also very useful against all kind of decks that spam the board with small bananas (Mana accelerators, utility creeps like Mother of the Runes, and stuff, also most Affinity lists) and offers very good trades.

Towards Pyrostatic pillar:
I am so confused about the card. I found myself just getting slapped by combo after turn 1 Duress so often that I nearly come to the conclusion that its not worth boarding. Sure, this is a bit exaggerated but it happens so damn often that I am kinda disappointed by the card itself. I am really thinking about dropping and playing Tormods Crypt instead. Crypt sets them off the Ill-gotten Gains loop and Ad Nauseum isnt THE plan against burn that you might have better chances with it than Pillar because beeing able to Tutorchain with Infernal isnt the typical play (even if they prefer it IF its possible).
Another upside is that you strenghten your Dredge MU which is horrible to be honest. Against an experienced player you wont come very far against Ancestors Chosen/Iona because they rape your hand with Therapy naming Vortex (Chosen is obviously weak with it) or Volcanic Fallout (Fireblast when youre ahead in the race). I would be glad to test those 4 Slots out some more because beeing so unimpressed by Pillar after testing intense against good pilots of ANT and TES.
IMO the chances of stealing a game via Crypt is nearly equal to Pillar and so it makes definetly more sense to me playing it instead. The minimal use against other decks that spit out many spells in one round isnt enough to convinve me to be honest.

Towards Shusher:
I play them as a 4 of back when CB was a DTB but luckily the number of the deck has dropped due to the Printing of Green Suns Zenith and the ridicoulous mana courve of decks like Affiniy which see tons of play atm. He is still a fine choice but I am pretty happy with a split of 3/1 or 2/2 of Smash to Smithereens (Shattering Spree is NOT necessary against neither StaXXX (Chalice Trini) like decks nor Affinity with the additional sb cards and Vortex) and Shusher and I would just play the whole playset of em if your meta is heavy blue. The thing is that another Bear can be awesome agaist Leyline but I think the decks that play those can handle creeps as well and so its not that convincing, bad that Anarchy is cc4... .

I play the following sb atm:

4 Tormods Crypt
4 Searing Blaze
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Vewxing Shusher

If you lack money for lavamancer and Chain Lightning you could assume that playing Searing Blaze maindeck and Spark Elemental could do a favour to you.
Greetings, youre welcome on criticising me on Crypt, discussion is progress!


I agree in the Tormod's Crypt >> Pyrostatic Pillar debate.
You can see it in the Sullivan semifinal video at SCGO He never reach 1R to play Pillar and face Duress in the 2nd game that gets Pyroblast. Tormod's Crypt seems a better option, and helps in the Dredge match.

[Tiago_B.]

I agree in the Tormod's Crypt >> Pyrostatic Pillar debate.

You can see it in the Sullivan semifinal video at SCGO He never reach 1R to play Pillar and face Duress in the 2nd game that gets Pyroblast. Tormod's Crypt seems a better option, and helps in the Dredge match.

Seems that pyrostatic pillar is too vulnerable/slow to be the reliable threat its suposed. I also thought about Mindbreak Trap, but its vulnerable to duress too. So im dropping those for crypt, or something else.

So, gameplans Vs combo:

- Dredge -> Crypt
- Belcher -> No pillar, so maybe instant artifact hate? (refered in previous posts)
- Ad Nauseam -> I think this is much winnable without any SD
- Dream Halls -> Pyroblast/ ReB? They might splash black for discard, or worse, white for Leyline of Sanctity which completly screws burn. Good thing that people dont use that leyline too much.
- Show and Tell -> ReB too?

More opinions, more combo decks, etc......

Btw, this thread's op pales in comparison to others.

[Shax]

I good thing to ask yourself is 'what matchups will I expect to face?'' Legacy is the most diverse cast to choose from of all the formats in magic put together(maybe). Your sideboard is even tougher. You can board for Blue with Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast at some numbers or full amount. If you want game against Dredge and anything else like that you can go Tormod's Crypt. Pyrostatic Pillar is our combo nuker or safeguard. I like Searing Blast for random critters but I have not seen this card as much as the rest of the board. If you want to drop your Dredge matchup and go for Pillar it can be a fine choice. Dredge and Storm combo are both much more inconsistant compared to Burn so pick your poison and if you do not have anything to board just hope to rip a hand of seven containing a turn three win on the draw or they are on Ad Naus and get themselves done in , or they are on Dredge and using the Flashback ability to -3 draw cards. (And I mean, actually draw the cards.)

[Tiago_B.]

How about Chalice of the Void? It shuts down LED, Moxes, Lotus Petal......We can play it for 0 on turn 1 so chances of it being duressed are far less than pillar's, and it may give us the time we need to burn them.

Against dredge though, Crypt really seems our best bet.

[Azel Orfat]

Hey guys, what do you think about New Phirexia and our dear deck? I have mixed feelings. On one hand perhaps Mental Misstep places Combo decks in worse situation. On the other hand if you look for example to Sullivan list, Misstep won't seem our best friend: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833&iddeck=42252

At least we are not dependent on any spell, but Merfolks for example could defend easier our Grim, FOD, REB… (just speculation)

Also Sword of War and Peace seems the hardest one to deal with (protection against us+gain life). But well, at most, more reason to go with Smash to Smithereens/Sulfuric Vorex.

Finally, we can propose Mental Misstep in our side. It has interesting targets against Spiral Tide, TES, Dredge and Reanimator. Thoughts?

[kiblast]

Mental Misstep

They're basically paying 2 life to counter a spell. That's good for the burn player. It will not affect by any means Burn's gameplan.



Also Sword of War and Peace seems the hardest one to deal with (protection against us+gain life). But well, at most, more reason to go with Smash to Smithereens/Sulfuric Vorex.

Probably this will be the least played sword (paired with UG). I cannot see any reason to play this over WB if you want the lifegain. And burn creatures in response to equip is always a huge tempo loss for opponent.



Finally, we can propose Mental Misstep in our side. It has interesting targets against Spiral Tide, TES, Dredge and Reanimator. Thoughts?
Probably not worth, it's really strong only versus Reanimator ( Ritual, Personal Tutor, Entomb,Reanimate as best targets) and Reanimator is not a deck you want to dedicate SB slots to. Spiral Tide is not played in my area, but I can imagine it gets hurted a lot by Misstep. Again you should ask yourself if you want to dedicate SB slots to a marginal deck which goldfishes in your same turn. Against Dredge Tormod's Crypt, or the discard effect faerie (sorry I can't remember its name atm) seem superior.

[Azel Orfat]

They're basically paying 2 life to counter a spell. That's good for the burn player. It will not affect by any means Burn's gameplan. Well, 2 lifes cost is optional. Anyway, I wouldn't be too happy if they cut my Guide, Grim, FOD or Lynx despite they pay 2 lifes. But I also think it's not a big problem for this deck.

[Sturtzilla]

They're basically paying 2 life to counter a spell. That's good for the burn player. It will not affect by any means Burn's gameplan.

Agreed! If your opponent opts to pay the two life to counter your Lightning Bolt with a Mental Misstep, then they have effectively prevented themselves one damage. I am not sure how everyone else feels about it, but I am totally okay with that. Sure they can pay one blue to have the same effect but in this format most decks rely on speed and will likely pay the life in many cases. All things considered, if they counter a Grim Lavamancer or Goblin Guide, maybe it is better than a 1 damage prevention but I would say it is still trivial. I am not worried about this card hurting burn.

[Azel Orfat]

I agree that in a pure Burn deck (with no creatures) Mental Misstep wouldn't be important but I'm not sure about that in current versions. With Misstep they have more option to deal with our creatures when they are more relevant. They could cut our best start (Goblin Guide) even without lose life on the play. If they Misstep/FOW my first creature, probably my second would find removal soon, so I think they could control our creatures without too many problems.

[ExiledWolf]

Blasts are worth more than Shushers, it costs less to protect your spells, and makes you faster.

Absolutely wrong.

1: Blast can and will be countered by Counterbalance

2: There's no need to race a control deck, you can afford to be 2 turns slower than normal

[Sturtzilla]

Probably not worth, it's really strong only versus Reanimator ( Ritual, Personal Tutor, Entomb,Reanimate as best targets) and Reanimator is not a deck you want to dedicate SB slots to. Spiral Tide is not played in my area, but I can imagine it gets hurted a lot by Misstep. Again you should ask yourself if you want to dedicate SB slots to a marginal deck which goldfishes in your same turn. Against Dredge Tormod's Crypt, or the discard effect faerie (sorry I can't remember its name atm) seem superior.

I have some thoughts on this that I would like to discuss with everyone. We have actually been discussing this same issue in the Reanimator thread. As a player of both decks, I truly believe that MM does have the potential to devastate Reanimator; however, skilled players will play around it just like they play around Daze, FOW, and graveyard hate. Remember that Reanimator usually runs counters and discard which they can use to foil this sideboard plan. That being said I agree that MM does not belong in a Burn sideboard. Something a bit better like Crypt should be our plan for both Dredge and Reanimator. As a Reanimator player, my heart just sinks when I see a turn one (or any turn that is faster than I am for that matter) crypt on the other side of the board.

As for filling out that last 4 slot in this deck, I would suggest testing/running Figure of Destiny. I just started testing this guy out, but he is pretty solid. Sure he eats removal, but so do all the other creatures we run. His ability to turn excessive land hands into quick board position and his presence as an attacker is great either alone or in tandem with goblin guide(s). Leaving open mana and attacking with him, creates headaches for opponents. If you don't need to pump unload with burn in second main phase. My goldfishes with him as a turn one play are usually a turn slower (unless you draw the nuts) ending on turns 4-5, but he gives you a solid option no matter when you draw him. My opinion is that he is a better option than either Manamorphose or Street Wraith. Just a thought.

[I am the brainwasher]

"As for filling out that last 4 slot in this deck, I would suggest testing/running Figure of Destiny. (...). My opinion is that he is a better option than either Manamorphose or Street Wraith. Just a thought."

- Hes definetly better than Street Wraith/Manamorphose for sure (as nearly each card would be better in that Slot...) and I wouldnt slap someone for playing him over Vortex. I think it was pointed out enough in the past that the deck mosty should include the same 52-56 cards right now and the rest is down to your meta/size of tourney.
Atm I am not convinced that I cut the Vortexes in the future because Counterbalance decks will see more play after the release of NPH (and so will Merfolk, and then Zoo and so on...) and GW Maverick will be accepted as a DTB at some point (maybe because it is one of the best not-played deck in some countries/areas right now?) and then I simply wont accept to fold to "in response sword my Knight" and "pay 2, equip Jitte get in there for blablabla" and long lasting games and getting my ass whooped with just CC1&2 in my deck. Right now it might be a good call but I think in the future it really isnt.

Towards the Pyrostatic Pillar Problem: Lost to ANT with 2 Pillars in my opener, one getting Duressed one get bounced by Chain of Vapor in the last tourney. The game went allover just wrong with me drawing Fetches instead of Fuel and sure it was a bit unlucky but thats not very rare as far as I experienced.
Just think of I had only 1 Pillar, my opponent would have laughed at me hard and just Tendrils Boojah! in my face. To make things clear: PILLAR. DOE'SNT. BEAT. COMBO. even in multiples. It can but it isnt reliable and then I am more likeley to go the Tormods Crypt route and cripple their Mainboard and Cabal Rits and just cross fingers that they wont win with Ad Nauseum or Tutorchain which lead to nearly the same results as playing a less flexible card and loosing to Dredge also.

About MM against Burn: Let 'em come!

[Sturtzilla]

"Atm I am not convinced that I cut the Vortexes in the future because Counterbalance decks will see more play after the release of NPH (and so will Merfolk, and then Zoo and so on...) and GW Maverick will be accepted as a DTB at some point (maybe because it is one of the best not-played deck in some countries/areas right now?) and then I simply wont accept to fold to "in response sword my Knight" and "pay 2, equip Jitte get in there for blablabla" and long lasting games and getting my ass whooped with just CC1&2 in my deck. Right now it might be a good call but I think in the future it really isnt.

I think our differences in builds would approach this scenario in different ways. Your's would hope to tick them down with the the Vortex, while I would hope to get through with a Figure. Vortex might be slower, but the possible negation of life gain can be real relevant. I think Figure puts them on a faster clock and applies pressure to their board position. However, Vortex offers a more solid and long term plan. Then again this is a very hypothetical scenario... However I will agree that those last few slots are meta dependent. I am just saying Figures are working pretty well for me.

[Kilz88]

Alright guys, here is my most recent list with some explanation:

Lands//

8x Mountain
12x Fetches

Dudes//

4x Goblin Guide
4x Hellspark Elemental (Very good under standstill and vs counterbalance/blue)
4x Grim Lavamancer

Fast Burn//

4x Lighting Bolt
4x Price of Progress (Actually not loving it recently. People either play around it, which is why I missed top 16 at worlds, or are not playing many like merfolk...)
4x Fireblast

Slow Burn//

4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Flame Rift (wins FAST and believe it out not, is quite good in a race)

Sideboard//
4x Searing Blaze (Locked)
4x Vexing Shusher (Locked. It is absolutely better than blasts. You need this guy for counterbalance and chalice)
3x Smash to Smithereens (I feel like this is probably locked)
4x Pyrostatic Pillar (Now here is the weird one I am not at all happy with. Plus there are other cards I really wanna get into the board. Like someone else has said in the past few pages of the thread, I too had NO success with this against combo. They either duress/thoughtsiezed it or bounced it. I am not sure there is a better solution for combo but here are the cards I feel are important to try and fit in)

Anarchy (This is literally our ONLY way to deal with Leyline of Sanctity. Now granted there are not a TON of decks that play it but enchantress/white stacks/some landstills...and we just CANT beat it. With the exception of a few spells like flame rift, price, and the creatures it rains heavily on our parade)

Sulfuric Vortex (This one is obvious and boy do I hate pulse of the fields/rhox war monk)

Anyway guys, let me know what you think and what we can do about the combo matchup/sideboard. Lastly I will leave you with an alternate list I have been having some fun with:

Lands//

8x Mountain
12x Fetches

Dudes//

4x Goblin Guide
4x Hellspark Elemental (Very good under standstill and vs counterbalance/blue)
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Spark Elemental

Fast Burn//

4x Lighting Bolt
4x Searing Blaze
4x Fireblast

Slow Burn//

4x Chain Lightning
4x Reckless Abandon

Sideboard//
4x Sulfuric Vortex
4x Vexing Shusher
3x Smash to Smithereens
4x Price of Progress

:DDD

[ThoSha]

I think our differences in builds would approach this scenario in different ways. Your's would hope to tick them down with the the Vortex, while I would hope to get through with a Figure. Vortex might be slower, but the possible negation of life gain can be real relevant. I think Figure puts them on a faster clock and applies pressure to their board position. However, Vortex offers a more solid and long term plan. Then again this is a very hypothetical scenario... However I will agree that those last few slots are meta dependent. I am just saying Figures are working pretty well for me.
Why not play Vortex AND Figure? They are both good at what they do, and dont fight for the same slot at all.

[Azel Orfat]

Here you have a nice read about Burn building: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21541_StarCityGamescom_Open_LA_Legacy_Burn_Report.html

About MM against Burn, I think we would need more than 12 creatures and be more prepared for a slower game. So, I'm currently testing this:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 4 Searing Blaze
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Mental Misstep

Anyway, we don't know yet how many decks could run Misstep and how it really affects our deck.

[Mr Pirakos]

Why bother running fetchlands at all? The slight non-land top deck chance isn't worth the life lost and vulnerability to Stifle.

[Azel Orfat]

Why bother running fetchlands at all? The slight non-land top deck chance isn't worth the life lost and vulnerability to Stifle.
Because with them, Grim is much better and they also let you run Searing Blaze that it's a great card

[Sturtzilla]

@ ThoSha

I like the way you are thinking. However running both cards could prove problematic. Both Figure and Vortex are fairly mana intensive for this deck. I guess there is no way but to find out by playtesting though.


@ Kilz88

Great sideboarding analysis. I totally agree that Pillar doesn't get the job done. In my experience it will get bounced, cherry-picked from your hand or countered. Here is what I have been running in my sideboard. Keep in mind that I run 2 Taiga for a slight sideboard green splash.

2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Searing Blaze
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip

Crypt helps with the Dredge and Reanimator matchups in a major way, as well as, keeping goyfs and knights managable. Smash to Smithereens deals with problematic artifacts in addition to Affinity and MUD. Both of these options do these jobs without dramatically hurting our tempo. Searing Blaze is just awesome. It helps sure up Zoo and Merfolk matchups or any other aggro match. I run a 3-3 Split between Susher and Grip because, while they sometimes address the same problem, they can be used in very different situations. Shusher helps against Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, and U/W tempo or control. Grip also helps with Counterbalance but also answers the gamut of problematic white enchantments that kill burn. One other nice reason for the green splash includes Back to Nature. If you expect to see loads of Enchantress, it is a great addition to the sideboard.


@Mr Pirakos

It is a slight non-land topdeck and also greatly contributes to Grim Lavamancer. As for the non-land topdeck, most builds get a diminishing 2% improvement of how likely you are to draw a land. That is your first fetch reduces your land draw likelihood by ~2% while your next fetch reduces your percentage by <~2%. This effect reduces each time you fetch. However if you fetch say 3 times in a game you have improved your draw percentage for non-land cards by maybe 4-6%. That is a decent amount of difference from the non-fetching variants. Yes it may open us up to Stifle, but we can operate on 2-3 lands. So this shouldn't be an issue, unless you are keeping one land fetch openers versus merfolk or landstill. At which point, in my opinion, it is pilot error, not build error.

[Kilz88]

@ Sturtzilla

Thanks for the compliments. I read that article and Sullivan is held in the highest regards when it comes to playing/building burn competitively and successfully IMO. I like what he had to say at times. When it came to creatures, I understand where he is coming from but I don't see why we should either fight counterbalance hard or not fight it at all. See I think cards like hellspark do help those match ups because if you run him out early, when they have no blockers, then you can use them later and they are uncounterable. Now on the flip side, I love his arguements for blasts. I have lost to Emerkul a lot lately and this upsets me because I have nothing to do about it. Now, blasts can help there and potentially with the combo/ANT/Tendrils match up (Although I am not sure if you bring them in there). So in a sense we can keep hellspark in to have some fight against counters/counterbalance, (CMC 2 as well. Not necessarily locked with CB/top), but supplement shusher with some blasts to fight some unfortunate match ups like Show and Tell. Now, I have not needed blasts against Fish in the past, I beat it 2-0 at worlds with just searing blaze but I am sure I will test it. Im thinking about this sideboard when it is all said and done:

Sideboard//
4x Searing Blaze
4x Vexing Shusher
3x Smash to Shit...lol
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast

I am gonna stick with Hellspark for now but I do see where he is going with Figure. It just is worse against counterbalance if you rip him off the top when you are trying to finish the game. If I draw Hellspark and have 4 lands and they are at 3....I smile. :)

EDIT: Forgot to comment about the green. I do NOT want to be vulnerable wasteland at any point. So the Taigas are a big turn off. Specifically the rare chance that I just draw it not off a fetch land. I am a huge fan of Back to Nature but that would have to be a drastic metagame choice. The problem white enchantments are generally found in white stax or enchantress. Stax runs wasteland and enchantress has sterling grove so you need something global. Basically I am saying we will need a strong showing of one of these decks to warrant making room for the removal in the board.

[Sturtzilla]

@ Kilz88

I also am of the opinion that while counterbalance deck may have some major advantages over burn, that is no reason to just roll over and die, if you like playing burn. If you enjoy playing burn and are skilled at it you can beat counterbalance (I am not saying it is easy). I agree that Hellspark Elemental shines in this match up. Binning them early and then using the longevity that they give you for late game can seal the deal pretty easily. Shusher can seal the game too, providing you can unload or your opponent is low on removal.

I haven't been seeing too much Sneak and Show in my area. If you are encountering it, then Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast make plenty of sense. I see a bit of ANT every now and then. My plan here is let then hurt themselves and then unload for game. Make early progress then let them help you out. But against any of the combo decks out there, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast are solid options.

[Azel Orfat]

Shusher helps against Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, and U/W tempo or control. Grip also helps with Counterbalance but also answers the gamut of problematic white enchantments that kill burn. One other nice reason for the green splash includes Back to Nature. If you expect to see loads of Enchantress, it is a great addition to the sideboard.
Yep, Back to Nature seems great against Enchantress. I find instant speed important there. If they resp with Sterling ability you will have a mana free turn anyway. Against COTV you have also STS, so I think that with Krosan Grip you could cut the Shushers.

Anyway, I suppose that a metagame that justifies green splash would be very bad for Burn. But if you want to play Burn at any cost just because you love it ^^, I think that green splash can be a good option.


Now, I have not needed blasts against Fish in the past, I beat it 2-0 at worlds with just searing blaze but I am sure I will test it I've done it and I have find them great against Merfolks. Protect some important cards/creatures or just have more instant "burn spells" to deal with their creautures is fine. On the other hand, REB could be a worse option due to MM.

About MM in side, I think that it could be great against some problematic cards. It can cut Enlightened Tutor to COP. Also, if Baseruption adds Misstep, we could deal with themselves, Sensei, Enlightened Tutor to Foundry and protect Vexing from Swords. The problem (like with REB) is that if we were already locked, we would have to force Sensei return.

[Sturtzilla]

Anyway, I suppose that a metagame that justifies green splash would be very bad for Burn. But if you want to play Burn at any cost just because you love it ^^, I think that green splash can be a good option.

Well if you think about the current decks to beat quite a few of them run some Counterbalance package. Some also run Phyrexian Dreadnought, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry. So Krosan Grip nukes quite a bit out of each of these decks. It saves you versus their counter package as well as their win conditions.

In addition Krosan Grip serves the purpose of saving burn's ass from getting blown out by Leyline of Sanctity, Worship, CoP: Red, Story Circle, and Ivory Mask to name a few. Red has no means to deal with enchantment based answers unless you consider Anarchy. Anarchy is a more narrow card than Krosan Grip. It is also more mana which can be a bit of a problem for this deck. I am not saying that the green splash is necessary for this deck. I am just saying that it has helped me improve some of my poorer match ups in addition to allowing an out versus many of the cards that hose this deck.


About MM in side, I think that it could be great against some problematic cards. It can cut Enlightened Tutor to COP. Also, if Baseruption adds Misstep, we could deal with themselves, Sensei, Enlightened Tutor to Foundry and protect Vexing from Swords. The problem (like with REB) is that if we were already locked, we would have to force Sensei return.

I guess in a small cross section of scenarios Mental Misstep could be good for burn. I am very skeptical about this though. I feel that there are plenty other sideboard options that will serve this deck better.

[bowvamp]

Has anyone tried Chancellor of the Dross? I'm trying to do a rather Jank-y take on no-creature pure burn with it, and I've got a consistent t3 kill.

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chancellor of the Dross
4 Lava Spike
4 Shard Volley
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Sonic Seizure
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
2 Price of Progress
4 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
^My deck as of now (note: I don't own any of these cards, but I am testing with a printed deck)

[Sturtzilla]

EDIT: Forgot to comment about the green. I do NOT want to be vulnerable wasteland at any point. So the Taigas are a big turn off. Specifically the rare chance that I just draw it not off a fetch land. I am a huge fan of Back to Nature but that would have to be a drastic metagame choice. The problem white enchantments are generally found in white stax or enchantress. Stax runs wasteland and enchantress has sterling grove so you need something global. Basically I am saying we will need a strong showing of one of these decks to warrant making room for the removal in the board.

Running only 2 Taiga in a deck that runs 18-20 lands, half of which are fetches, generally keeps you from top decking a Taiga. I can understand your concern on that occurring. I generally don't run Back to Nature in my board as my meta does not have much enchantress; I was just noting it as an option, if you are seeing a lot of that. And you are right, it would be a drastic meta-dependant change to make. The green splash really does help with counterbalance builds as Krosan Grip takes out their lock and sometimes can nuke their win cons.

[Tacosnape]

You people are worried too much about Mental Misstep. (...Says the guy who thinks it's the second coming of Magic Jesus.)

Mental Misstep isn't really all that big of a deal in non-blue decks for Burn. Burn wants to spend a red mana to make opponents lose life. Freecast Mental Missteps fit in with this schematic pretty well. If they spend a card to get a net gain of 1 life, well, go with it. Sometimes that'll actually be worth it for them, but more times than not, it won't.

Secondly, in blue decks, Mental Misstep has to replace -something-. A lot of times, it'll replace other counters. Things like Spell Pierce, which while unable to hit your Lavamancers and Guides, will do just fine at nailing your Prices, Fireblasts, Searing Blazes, and sometimes Rift Bolts.

In the case of Merfolk, it's decreasing their threat density. So it could be worse if they get a balanced hand with a Misstep, a Daze, and a couple guys. But they could also get more slow clock hands where the clock is a turn slower to compensate for the fact that you got a spell countered.

Burn is not a worrier's deck. The extent of your worrying should be doing what you do as efficiently as possible. Just do what Burn always has done. Stop caring, stop overthinking, and go throw red spells at shit. It's going to work just as well (If not better) than it ever has.

[Spartacvs]

Post misstep legacy...

I won my local event tonight here in Tokyo with this

4 Gobling Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Figure of Destiny

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast

8 Mountain
12 Fetches

SB
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Searing Blaze

R1 I beat the "mirror" he played 19 11 mountain 8 fetch land no figures or lava spikes sulfuric vortex x3 main and a flamebreak and had 4 Keldon Marauders. Figures were really good

R2 I played vs monoblack reanimator I win the roll and G1, G2 he plays t1 needle on the crypt in my hand :( and reanimates iona :(.. G3 he plays t2 Grave Titan off double dark rit, he asks after tha game if he should have played the thoughtseize he revealed of my guide attack, I show him it wouldnt matter since he was at 6 when I flame rift and fireblast him on on turn 4 he would have been at 4 not 6 and one of those would have been enough

R3 I had to play my friend (Boots from these here forums) unfortunately(he cant get good pairings lately)... he's was playing fish with 2 Jitte and 1 SoFi main we went to 3 games because g2 I double mull and draw 3 Fireblast effectively mulling me 3 times.

Burn is the real deal and largely ignores Mental misstep since you effectively get a shock out of your spell anyway. I'm considering playing MM in the board thou and maybe 1 or 2 of P. Metamorph to deal with reanimator and other cheat a fatty into play decks.

Keep on Fireblastin'!

Peace,

Sean

[Mr. Safety]

You people are worried too much about Mental Misstep. (...Says the guy who thinks it's the second coming of Magic Jesus.)

That will be going into my signature, sir! Very funny indeed... :)



In the case of Merfolk, it's decreasing their threat density. So it could be worse if they get a balanced hand with a Misstep, a Daze, and a couple guys. But they could also get more slow clock hands where the clock is a turn slower to compensate for the fact that you got a spell countered.

I think there are 2 camps on MM with Fish decks...one is dropping Cursecatcher, the other is dropping Daze. Not entirely sure about that one, but the first camp does indeed drop their threat density.


Burn is not a worrier's deck. The extent of your worrying should be doing what you do as efficiently as possible. Just do what Burn always has done. Stop caring, stop overthinking, and go throw red spells at shit. It's going to work just as well (If not better) than it ever has.

Agreed...I think Mental Misstep actually HELPED burn get a little better. Go figure...

[evanmartyr]

I think the only possible splash damage we took from Mental Misstep was Reckless Abandon and Goblin Grenade going from bad to fucking-don't-ever-play-that-card-you-silly-bastard. Some games will be slightly harder due to Grim Lavamancer or Goblin Guide being countered on the play, but that's roughly equivalent to a worse Swords to Plowshares. So that's fine.

If anything, it's a boon to us, since it gives us a tempo-free answer to opposing efficient blockers, and it gives you a half-decent sb option for match-ups in which it'd be useful...whether that's something you need, or not, the option's there.

[ThoSha]

Anyone thought about a RW Burn deck with Lightning Helix and Orims Chant yet?
I bet its more competitive in a developed meta than stupid burn tbh.

[Sturtzilla]

I think there are 2 camps on MM with Fish decks...one is dropping Cursecatcher, the other is dropping Daze. Not entirely sure about that one, but the first camp does indeed drop their threat density.

Actually many of the merfolk builds out there are cutting standstill for mental misstep or other cards to improve their spell resolving power versus mental misstep. In the last SCG legacy open, there were quite a few merfolk builds in the top 16 and only one was running standstill. I just thought I would add that little bit of knowledge. I highly doubt that skilled players will drop cursecatcher. He is a clock and slows down or shut down combo, while helping the deck versus control and removal elements. This removal of standstill could be good or bad for burn. Less standstills will me slower draws for merfolk. However it will mean that they are packing more counter magic. So watch out for dazes and mental missteps.

[Ultralisk]

Hi all!

Just started working on Monored Burn as my first Legacy deck.

I have 4 Goblin Guides and 4 copies of the Fire & Lightning premium deck which I got as a Christmas present, so I'm pretty set once I get hold of REB, Pyroblast and the rest of the older cheap cards! I also have fetches as I'm building monored with Koth in standard.

I have some questions though. What is Searing Blaze boarded in *against*? The rest of the sb seems logical. Also what comes out for what goes in? I know there's a lot of redundancy so it may be a straight up matter of drop the least powerful mb card for said MU for x but yeah, all help appreciated!

Thanks again

[Mr. Safety]

Anyone thought about a RW Burn deck with Lightning Helix and Orims Chant yet?
I bet its more competitive in a developed meta than stupid burn tbh.

If you want Boros, you need beatsticks to make it work like Kiln Fiend, Steppe Lynx, Goblin Guide, and Reckless Charge. A minor white splash won't do you any good unless you're pushing fast dudes through for damage and then finishing up with burn. This is the Burn thread...if you're not just paying red mana for efficient damage, you're not playing burn. Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Guide usually the only exceptions, and Goblin Guide can force an argument that you're playing sligh, not burn.

I know of one fish deck that has dropped Cursecatchers for Mental Misstep...but doesn't play Standstill. I honestly haven't seen many fish decks using Standstill for a while...most have dropped Standstill for Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, a black splash Saito-style for Perish in the sideboard, or a white splash for Swords.

I think Standstill will get back in there, though. Turn 1 Vial/Mental Misstep, Turn 2 Standstill is really, really strong. Fish doesn't have to sling Force of Will at Wild Nacatl or Goblin Lackey anymore...they have 4 more weapons to do that with MM. Standstill then steps in to put them so far ahead in cards (after you commit to breaking the Standstill...because you HAVE to so you can start a clock) that you probably can't recover. Fish is situated nicely ATM. They can counter your turn 1 Lava Spike/Chain Lightning, play Standstill, and then draw 3 more cards to have 3 more answers to your burn spells. This is when you really have to look at Burn as a combo deck...and they just countered your combo pieces.

[Deck Dont Matter]

I have been testing burn pretty hard for the past few weeks in this post NPH legacy. My list has been really consistant that it will fall into place as something like this.

creatures
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Goblin Guide
3x Figure of Destiny/Kiln Fiend (Debate here: am I going for the explosive plays more (kiln Fiend) or go with consistancy (FoD), probably going to come down to a day of decision.)

Spells
4x Lava Spike
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning bolt
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
4x Rift Bolt
4x Flame Rift
1x Pulse of the Forge (has been a surprising 1 of that kills planewalkers off if unanswered, just wish I could mana burn control my life with this card more, may change to 1x Flames of the blood hand)

Lands
4x Arid Mesa
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded foothills
8x Mountain

Side Board
3x Searing Blaze
3x Smash to Smithereen
4x Pryoblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
3x Mindbreak Trap/Tormod's Crypt/Vexing Shusher (everything else is locked in but this 3x slot just falls to the "What I fear most" spots)

its been testing good against bant varients, Zoo, merfolk, and various combo decks...still has the Counterbalance issues....

[Azel Orfat]

Agreed...I think Mental Misstep actually HELPED burn get a little better. Go figure...
I'd like to think the same, but unfortunately I think that you are wrong if we are talking about a build with creatures: 4 Goblin Guide, 4 FOD, 4 Grim Lavamancer. And that's the problem for me: creatures.

With MM it's very hard to do damage with those creatures to blue decks. I've also found that it's harder to pass Tarmogoyf with FOD. Bant decks have to FOW you a creature or lose one to get a 4/5 Tarmogoyf, but now it's easier with MM. (Although Grim can sometimes solve it)

About Lavamancer I think that its main task is to fight against Merfolks, and sure it's not going to love MM :tongue:

Finally the same for REB, it can be harder to deal with those RWM among other things.

So my conclusion is that we need to adapt to MM. And as I said before IMO that adaptation should be run more than 12 creatures and try to be a little more stable.

I'm currently testing this.

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kargan Dragonlord
3 Hell’s Thunder
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 4 Searing Blaze
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Mental Misstep

I know that some options are very rare and they don't seem appropriate for legacy but for now they are working well for me. Anyway I'll try to give some comment:

Kargan Dragonlord: Similar role than FOD. The deck has very few instants so level up speed sorcery is not very problematic. I board it out against heavy burn decks (Zoo and Canadian). I have found evasion great and it can do a good job in difficult situations (flooded, COTV, Leyline of Sanctity). MM in side can also help it.

Hell's Thunder: Good against Control decks. I thought about it because I needed a creature that wasn't too bad against the decks where I boarded out Kargan and that also could help in flooded situations (I run 21 lands due to Kargan)

MM in side: Sure it's not so good as Tormod against Dredge or so good as Mindbreak Trap against TES but it can help against all combo decks (Dredge, TES, Reanimator, Spiral Tide or even Combo Elves) and can have other great uses as I said in a previous post.


I also wanted to say that I think that adding Tarmo (return to Goyf Sligh) would be a good choice post misstep. It's a great creature for giving you stability and if they MM your Guide, you'll have at least a 3/4 fast Goyf. Unfortunately I haven't them so that's why I run those red low quality creatures. I've also considered others (Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, Kiln Fiend, Plated Geopede or Ball Lightning) but I neither like them too much. On the other hand I wouldn't play Lynx Burn post MM because an opening losing Lynx to MM and Plateau to Wasteland seems very harmful for me and sure it's not the most suitable creature for giving you stability :laugh:



I have some questions though. What is Searing Blaze boarded in *against*? The rest of the sb seems logical. Also what comes out for what goes in? I know there's a lot of redundancy so it may be a straight up matter of drop the least powerful mb card for said MU for x but yeah, all help appreciated!

I board them against any heavy creature deck with at least some creature in range like Tribal decks, Zoo, Mirror (-4 POP), Bant aggro or GW aggro.

[Deck Dont Matter]

@Azel...you do make some good points on how the deck needs to evolve but I think you are moving it up too far...burn has always to me beena deck that plays on the 1 spell, 2 spells, 3 spells plan...meaning that the first 6 spells you play between on board creatures and spell played with them should be enough to win a match. i do think planning on unearthing hell's thunder can be a long shot some time, Or even getting past 4 land. and DragonLord just feels like a tough mana sink to me...its just ask to eat a kill spell after devoting mana to get him even to a 4/4 flyer. Positive note, you deck is espeically better to a control long game, that can occure more and more, if the standstill decks make a hard return. Well one final local before the GP, will maybe drop a report in the Tourney Report section pending some results.

[Azel Orfat]

@Azel...you do make some good points on how the deck needs to evolve but I think you are moving it up too far...
Maybe you're right. About unearth Hell's Thunder it's true that in a lot of games I won't get (and I won't want) the 5 lands but it's just when I be in problems when I will be able to use it (yep, I only see the positive side :laugh:). I also wanted to explain that I don't run those creatures due to control decks (I think that Burn has a favourable pairing against any control deck, except Countertop) but I thought that I needed more creatures to make them get sense post MM. I also wanted to say (cause maybe before I looked too negative :smile:) that I've won some games against MM control decks in my online testing.

IMO other good way to adapt to MM is to run a pure Burn deck. In fact I prefer a pure Burn deck against most of the control decks. I played it some time ago but I consider that the creature build is much stronger and also more fun ^^

Any comment about your experience against MM decks would be appreciated.

P.D. I hope to see that report :wink:

[Azel Orfat]

I post again because I've just seen a very nice and interesting creature ^^:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/716
Too bad that STP is the main removal here. Any thoughts?

[Top Deck]

I post again because I've just seen a very nice and interesting creature ^^:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/716
Too bad that STP is the main removal here. Any thoughts?

the card seems very busted with some discard outlet which is a sorcery, instant, or planeswalker.

it is very good with chandra ablaze, but hard to have controlled discard and damage in legacy. i'd say you could use it with firestorm

[Koby]

The creature seems really good on its own merit, and even better in the context of Chandra Ablaze. However, I don't think this creature (nor planeswalkers) truly belong in Burn.

[Top Deck]

The creature seems really good on its own merit, and even better in the context of Chandra Ablaze. However, I don't think this creature (nor planeswalkers) truly belong in Burn.

yup i agree, but if the cast cost was RR instead of 1RR. i think it would be a solid burn staple. goblin guide at R and 2/2 haste definitely makes the cut on some lists.

[Deck Dont Matter]

This weekend local testing brought up a few things against Mental Misstep. It does slow you down...when they lose life to cast it, your happy. When they tap a land for it, your sad. I played against 1 Junk(W), 1 Team America(W), 1 no-candles Spiral Tide(L), and jank reanimator(L)(Special note:Guy turn 1 Iona both games). I do think the board is about right, Kiln Fiend really does help push the damage through while killing creatures that get in the way. Also believe I have to change up the Sideboard and maindeck a little for the GP.
I want to get Surgical Exstraction into the board...and a extra Kiln fiend in the main deck dropping the pulse of the Forge.

SB to
2x Red Elemental Blast
4x Pyroblast
3x Surgical Exstraction
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Searing Blaze

I just think that shusher has a time and place when it is needed in the format. Right now I'm not sure if it does...

[Tiago_B.]

I post again because I've just seen a very nice and interesting creature ^^:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/716
Too bad that STP is the main removal here. Any thoughts?

3 mana for 2 damage, not viable for burn... it has a nice ability but i dont see this playing in legacy, even if you build a deck around it.

[Deck Dont Matter]

4 days and counting til GP:Providence. Have had to resort to Workstation testing due to work schedule this week but ran the gautlet last night to some interesting results with a few of my buddies.
Most of the test was preboarded matches to determine if Figure of Destiny was to be played over Kiln Fiend. Enough testing shows that Kiln Fiend just does the job more consistant..If he goes unanswered then the game is over. Here is to hoping.
Also SB changed up a little...
4xPyroblast
3xSearing Blaze
3xSmash 2 Smithereens
2xVexing Shusher
3xSurgical Extraction

Surgical just seems to help in so many match ups from combo->Control. Board it in against standstill blue killed 1 jace,TMS and removed the rest from the game. It just helps so much against those 1 shot win conditions.

Anyone got a idea or 2 fro between figure or kiln let me know...always willing to listen to logic.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I just got finished with some playing around online. I think burn is as well positioned now as it's ever gonna be. Last time the planets aligned was right before ColdSnap dropped with that damn CounterBalance. Now adays the old CB isn't the hottest of metagame choices. Burn easily rolls most Standstill decks, Ancient Tomb decks, and will always be favored over goblins by design. I don't think it's GP top 8 material by any means but a solid day 2 is not out of the question. Haven't had time to test Merfolk or Team America, but I'm guessing not bad againt Folk and not good against America. I think PoP in the main is mandatory, at least 2-3 and I would never go less than 4 between main and side. I think the breakout day ruiner of choice is a card that I have a soft spot for... 4x Ankh of Mishra in the SB. So mean. Granted it's about as bad a late game card as you can find, but stick one turn 2 against a Standstill deck and ride a river of tears to victory. Seriously I just went like 11-1 vs Standstill decks in casual testing. Once they hit about 10 life they can't afford to play Standstill without a serious clock or you can just load up a full hand of burn and eat them alive with near infinite time. The only game I lost vs Still I managed to draw 5 lands in a row against his Standstill + 2 Factories with him at 4 life. Your results may vary, but I'm tempted to break this out soon before the GP results shake up the meta and I have to wait another 6 years for burn to be playable again.

[oneiros76]

Kiln Fiend seems to all-in against the creature decks in the format that are now chalk-full of removal and a little worse than Figure of Destiny against the control decks. The 3/4x slot that Figure takes up I see as filling a couple roles: eating a swords so your opponent can't hit their own Knight/Goyf to stay alive, and as another early beater against control. I've actually been running Top in this slot with a lot of success, it can really even out the deck's draws.

Ps everyone may want to start running more Red Elemental Blasts over Pyroblasts in case people put in Misdirections against you. Pretty corner case but may still come up.

[Sturtzilla]

@ Chandra's Phoenix Discussion

I would have to agree. I don't believe that Chandra's Phoenix belongs in burn. It is too slow and not enough damage for the mana you invest in it. Although it makes me want to try some sort of deck that uses it along with firestorm. But even with that idea, I think it is still subpar.

@ dontbiteitholmes

I was considering and used the same strategy with ankh of mishra back before I got a hold of all of my fetch lands. It is a very good way to knock down an opponent real quick or stall the game. Taking 5 damage per fetch land is a a pretty steep price. It is super fun when you follow a turn two Ankh with a turn three price of progress and kill them for their land shenanigans.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Ps everyone may want to start running more Red Elemental Blasts over Pyroblasts in case people put in Misdirections against you. Pretty corner case but may still come up.

Misdirection can still retarget either one of these spells at itself, causing it to have no effect.

[Azel Orfat]

Misdirection can still retarget either one of these spells at itself, causing it to have no effect.
The difference is when you target a permanent.


Again with MM although I think that it's problematic against us, maybe indirectly it leaves a favourable metagame for Burn. Looking at GPprovidence, Combo decks and Countertop didn't make a big appearance. Except for Bant that can be hard due to RWM I think that Merfolks, Zoo, Team America and Landstill are all favourable pairings for Burn (or at least were :laugh:).

Only a Burn deck in Day2 :( Any comment from Burn players at the GP would be appreciated.

[TheDeadMan]

I ended up playing sligh at the GP went 5-3 running into merfolk most of the day(my 3 loses). The games/matches honestly came down to 1 thing if I stuck a mancer I won if I dident eventually they would get ahead of me.

edit: deck list for reference

Creatures: 15
4 goblin guide
4 grim lavamancer
4 hellspark elemental
3 vexing susher

Burn: 18
4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 rift bolt
3 PoP
3 fireblast

Other: 4
4 ankh of mishra

Sweepers: 2
2 flamebreak

Mana: 21
4 simian spiritguide
17 mountain


SB: 15
4 pyro pillar
3 pithing needle
3 pulverize
2 shattering spree
1 vexing susher
1 flamebreak
1 ratchet bomb

[Sturtzilla]

@ TheDeadMan

I hope you had a good time at the GP. Going 5/3 is not too shabby. I am curious about how useful you thought the Ankh of Mishra and Vexing Shusher were in the main. It seems to me that there could be slightly better options, but then again I probably shouldn't argue with success. It would seem to me that you list has some anti-synergies built into it. For example you are not running fetchlands to power you lavamancer and thin your land count, most likely due to the Ankh inclusion. How do you feel about your current setup versus one without the ankh and fetches? Can you discuss your inclusion of Simian Spirit Guide? He can give really fast starts but doesn't net you much more damage. What is your logic on this choice? My last question would be, would the slots filled by Shusher and Ankh be better filled by some combination of Lava Spike and/or Flame Rift? I hope I didn't ask too many questions. Your build is very unique and I would like to learn a bit about it from the pilot.

[bowvamp]

I didn't get a very audible response last time I posted about this, so it seems to be rez time. What do you guys think about 6 point life swings w/ 3 of those damage? How about on turn 0? For 0 mana or tempo disadvantage? I like Chancellor of the Dross.

[TheDeadMan]

Ankh is a house in so many matches and usually just flat out wins against decks such as landstill, 43 lands, team america/rug that are running upwards of 10 fetches. As far as the sushers go their might be better options but given the sheer amount of control and MM I expected at the GP I felt having 3 main was a better choice than bringing in 4 in the matches I expects to see the most. The spirit guides are allways a point of discussion they do allow you to power out stuff such as ankh pyro pillar and susher 1st turn which is very key on the play, they also let you sneak through daze even though that cards has lost favor. Late game their a body if nothing else and get in the way of goyf or some of the monsters that decks like affinity can crank out. I was running a build awhile ago with lava spikes but the fact that I cant hit creatures was to much of a glaring fault when the projected meta was going to be stuffed with fish (5 of my 8 rounds) Overall the deck has played solid, it might not be quite as agressive as some builds, but I prefer the ability to be able to dictate the pace of the game with stuff such as ankh/susher.

[Sims]

I didn't get a very audible response last time I posted about this, so it seems to be rez time. What do you guys think about 6 point life swings w/ 3 of those damage? How about on turn 0? For 0 mana or tempo disadvantage? I like Chancellor of the Dross.

Sure. Give me something to play that will allow me to get the dead and useless card out of my hand past turn 0 or when I need a bolt to seal the game and topdeck something that's a worse topdeck then land.

Seems terrible, to be blunt.

[evanmartyr]

With the exception of Chancellor of the Tangle, which has some benefit in Belcher-type decks, I don't believe any of the Chancellors are playable outside of being able to put them into play at some point in the game. A free bolt is cool, but it's saving you one mana (since it costs you a card, essentially), isn't a massive gain in this deck. If there was some card that benefited greatly from being able to discard him, then you'd be onto something, but the red burn spells that require that require a discard at random.

EDIT: Quick thought, has anyone considered using Chain of Plasma in the less creature-heavy versions? It seems like a fairly decent way to tempt opponents into making mistakes, but you come out pretty far behind if you have any relevant creatures in play.

[Sturtzilla]

@ TheDeadMan

Thanks for your input. I agree that Ankh can be a nasty force to deal with. I guess I am just not sure if running Ankh is worth removing fetches, the synergy fetches have for land-thinning and lavamancer, and taking out a solid burn cards like lava spike or flame rift. I also notice that you don't have Searing Blaze in your board. Why is that? It seems to me if you are worried about creatures, this card keeps you on your clock while also slowing your opponent down.


@ bowvamp

The only real way I can think that would make running Chancellor of the Dross worth playing would be the inclusion of Firestorm and Sonic Seizure. However if you are running 4 CotD to maximize your 6 point life swing, you are then going to have a maximized drawing a nearly dead card. Furthermore, if you draw into a Firestorm or Sonic Seizure without a CotD or I guess Hellspark Elemental to ditch you have yet 2 more sets of dead cards. Firestorm will do nearly nothing, seeing as you would be banking on ditching the CotD. Sonic Seizure would present the problem that it would have to be played last and thereby dictate how you play. This could cause issue if you wanted to run staples like Fireblast. Overall I just don't think it is that playable when there are many legit options available.

[TheDeadMan]

Searing blaze is def a solid card but the lack of fetches can make it a bit to erratic for my liking, which is why I have been trying flamebreak. As far as fetches in general im not a huge fan of it given how many team A decks are running around with 3-4 stifles. Nothing like getting blownout because they have solid targets for their stifle vs a random grim activation.

[Koby]

@ TheDeadMan

Did you ever feel like you wanted Red blasts against any of your matchups? It seems much better than Bolts against Merfolk, and can snipe out Jaces like a champ. I think you would replace it with some of the creatures in G2/3 that are ineffective against such decks, like Goblin Guides. I remember Patrick Sullivan ran 8 full blasts when he played in the SCG Open @ Los Angeles. I was skeptical at first about this plan, but it seems to work out from what I've heard.

[Sims]

I've been contemplating this point as well. I had changed my sideboard and tried substituting blasts for shusher and honestly... I don't really like it.

It was nice in a few games against TA where I was able to force through prices or fireblasts FTW but having another creature that turns on their removal is bleh. It's a semi-dead topdeck when you need burn to seal a game (though i suppose REB is too, but at least blasts can snipe a jace or something)... i dunno... I just feel that the blasts were more versatile even if they did take up a lot of room.

[DragoFireheart]

Now that Countertop decks are have basically disappeared from the face of the earth, I purpose more interest in burn decks! They do well for frying fishes and giving Landstill decks a hard time.

I don't like having creatures in burn. They die, can get blocked, eat removal, etc. I suggest this list:


4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Shard Volley

4 Sulfuric Vortex

21 Mountain


Vortex is one of the best ways to force continually damage. It hurts us, but it hurts them far more usually (it also prevents life loss).

I want to give Shard Volley another try. It's usually so so, but it's still three damage for one mana.

[Deck Dont Matter]

Thought I'd drop my own results from the GP. I will say people that had no prep for playing against mono-red did not have a fun time playing against me. My grinder result were top 4/top 4/2nd...Was perfectly happy with the grinder results...if gave me some early playtesting that I so needed and got the early look of the NoFoW deck and also the Batterskull deck that were all over the place the next day. GP itself I start a solid 3-0 beating B/W discard, Affinity, and U/W Control with Stoneforge/Batterskull...then loss 3 straight to Sneak and Show, Merfolk, and painter stone...what I learned...need more blue hate...but it was a fun time...got my deck all foil or foreign now...including Foil torment Grim Lavamancers :D...

[Azel Orfat]

Thx to TheDeadMan and Deck Dont Matter for the GP input.

@Deck Dont Matter: Did you finally play Kiln Fiend? In that case, how did it work?

About Shusher vs REB I think that it's better time for the blast because Counterbalance doesn't look to be on top. Also Merfolks is one of the DTB where REB can do a great job. Maybe we'll see less Spiral Tide due to MM but I think the opposite about S&T. On the other hand, I don't know if MUC will see more play, where maybe Shusher is the best answer. But also REB can be fine there thinking in Jaces or even in a rare Energy Field.

[Sturtzilla]

I don't like having creatures in burn. They die, can get blocked, eat removal, etc.

I really like your list but I think as Shard Volley will compete with mountain sacrificing with Fireblast, maybe the Shard Volley could be hard to cast. I just really don't like the thought of drawing dead cards. But you are right it is 3 damage for 1 mana. I guess it is worth testing. Just some thoughts.

Thanks for the GP results guys!

[Deck Dont Matter]

@Azel-I did go with the Kiln Fiend build for the event...I'm not sure of him still...The deck does need a 2 drop creature in it with the new meta...when he resolved and attacked he could just blow out some matches. And he traded alot with KoR and really big Master of Etherium which was huge for me...and if he hit...it was usually game over...

[Sims]

I'm capable of taking flames, so let er rip. But in this new meta that involves lots of mental missteps, what do people think of Kargan Dragonlord in the Figure of Destiny slot... Yeah it's 2cc, Yeah it's slow... but I'm really thinking it's worth testing. I know it's been brought up before but what do you guys think?

Flame away.

[RogueMTG]

I'm capable of taking flames, so let er rip. But in this new meta that involves lots of mental missteps, what do people think of Kargan Dragonlord in the Figure of Destiny slot... Yeah it's 2cc, Yeah it's slow... but I'm really thinking it's worth testing. I know it's been brought up before but what do you guys think?

Flame away.

I'd say it's worth a shot.

I was already really disappointed with Figure and have been playing Sulfuric Vortex main instead of it lately which has been performing well.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm capable of taking flames, so let er rip. But in this new meta that involves lots of mental missteps, what do people think of Kargan Dragonlord in the Figure of Destiny slot... Yeah it's 2cc, Yeah it's slow... but I'm really thinking it's worth testing. I know it's been brought up before but what do you guys think?

Flame away.


I'd rather run Kiln Fiend. At least with Fiend you can pump the hell out of it with burn spells. The opponent better have removal, less they get eaten alive. If they decide to block, he most likely will kill anything in his way.

[Deck Dont Matter]

I tried the dragonlord when testing for the GP...just found him too slow...he almost never gets to even his first level...I do hope in the next 2 sets a soild red 2 drop is made to reall fit this spot in burn...but gotta wait and see...

[Azel Orfat]

@Azel-I did go with the Kiln Fiend build for the event...I'm not sure of him still...The deck does need a 2 drop creature in it with the new meta...when he resolved and attacked he could just blow out some matches. And he traded alot with KoR and really big Master of Etherium which was huge for me...and if he hit...it was usually game over...
Thx. It's an interesting creature no doubt. The problem for me is that I think that now the deck needs more creatures and Kiln works better with few (like the new Chandra's Phoenix). Also I think that with MM, we'll end depending more on topdeck and Fiend is a very bad one IMO. Finally, Legacy is a heavy creature metagame and I suppose that's a problem for him (yep, all I said were bad notes, sorry :laugh:). I also want to say that I haven't tested it so it's just what I think.



I'm capable of taking flames, so let er rip. But in this new meta that involves lots of mental missteps, what do people think of Kargan Dragonlord in the Figure of Destiny slot... Yeah it's 2cc, Yeah it's slow... but I'm really thinking it's worth testing. I know it's been brought up before but what do you guys think?

Flame away.

I've been playing it online so I'll try to give you my thoughts. At the moment I love it, but to be honest I don't know if it's more because I find it funny. It usually dies fast but if not, it's a serious problem for the opponent and that's what I really expect from a creature and the reason that I don't like Keldon Marauders too much. I like Kargan against Merfolks. With it on play, you can slow your opponent killing his fishes without worrying in "losing gas" or final blocks (fly). In general I'd say that it can do a great job against decks with few removal.

So I encourage you to test it. In that case I suggest you to run 21 lands (a one land hand was bad for FOD but it's even worse for Kargan) and have something in side to switch it against Zoo (Searing Blaze) and against combo.

I'm testing the same list that I posted before changing Vexing for REB and Misstep for Tormod's Crypt. Apart from combo, I wanted to test boarding MM against Thopters and Merfolks because both have a considerable number of interesting one cost cards (including their own MM) and it could help my Vexings and Kargan to survive. The reason for those changes is that Counterbalance doesn't seem to be on top and that I've heard that Hydroblast are no longer usual in Mefolks side. Anyway I don't know if it was a bad idea because MM looks to be a horrible topdeck for burn. On the other hand REB can also help Kargan (Hydroblast and Jace).

About MM (yes, I think that I'm getting a little obssesed with this card :smile:) I think that the good amount of Zoo decks in the GP day 2 may mean that MM is no so problematic ^^. Although they are different decks, in both, first drop creatures are important. In fact I don't really know if I should consider my deck as Burn because I have a good number of creatures. Maybe RDW would be more appropiate or RDL that looks less arrogant and perhaps more realistic :laugh:. I also hope for better cards for red in next editions, if possible against blue, as Zoo has gotten the cool Thrun in side ^^.

[Sims]

That's kinda the angle I was looking at it from. Yeah it sucks when it gets removed but that's the case with any of our creature options save the throw away creatures.

I like Kiln Fiend and have been playing it in that slot, but I think it's a weaker topdeck than Kargan. They both take mana investments to make them large threats, but Kargan is definitely a better topdeck if you get pulled into the mid-game than kiln fiend is. However Fiend definitely lets you seal the deal really quick if they have no removal.

It's a toss up that might come down to preference, but I'm going to try testing Kargan in that slot.

[Scytale]

First post here, I mainly play Goblins but also have the cards for a burn deck, thinking of switching over to it now goblins got hit hard by new meta.

What about Slith firewalker as a two drop creature?

[Azel Orfat]

Welcome. About Slith I think that it's outdated. I suppose that it can't compete here where Tarmo and KOTR are the dominant creatures.

[Azel Orfat]

I keep trying to find a set of creatures that convinces me post MM. I wanted to ask you about Dismember. I've thought that if Kiln Fiend and FOD have problems against big creatures, maybe adding removal could make them work.

Pros: It doesn't require splash and it can work over MM. Cons: It doesn't really fit in the strategy.

What do you think about including Dismember in a list with 4 Guide 4 FOD 4 Grim and 4 Kiln Fiend? Perhaps also with 4 Manamorphose that has sinergy with Kiln, Grim and even Dismember.

I don't know if trying them in side or even in main. Do you think that FOD and Kiln can go in the same list?

On the other hand, I've seen this creature in MTGsalvation:

Red Uncommon:
"Bloodstorm" Berserker - 1R
Creature - Human Berserker
Bloodthirst 2
Can't be blocked unless by two or more creatures.
1/1
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329308

My first thought has been that it could work with one drops and Rift Bolt. My second thought has been that MM hurts our one drops :laugh:

[Clark Kant]

I freaking love Kiln Fiend. Here is the list I use...

Minerals
17 Mountain

Zerglings
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kiln Fiend

Instants/Sorceries
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Fireblast

[Zach Tartell]

Searing Blaze with only seventeen lands (and zero fetches) seems like an AWFUL idea.

[Clark Kant]

Searing Blaze with 17 land AND eight cantrips is a fantastic idea.

[Sturtzilla]

Searing Blaze with only seventeen lands (and zero fetches) seems like an AWFUL idea.

I would have to agree here. First off you are losing burn density by playing the cantrips. Why not just play burn so you can draw burn? You are losing out on Flame Rift and Price of Progress by playing cards that let you draw more burn. Both of those options are pretty good at ending the game. I guess the cantrips are both going to be free for the deck but it just seems bad to me. Plus a 4th Lavamancer would probably help as would fetches to power the him. I have never really liked playing this deck at 18 lands or less. It get great hands and terrible hands. At 20 with plenty of fetches you tend to have smoother and more reliable play.

[Addendum]

maybe this is ignorant by why pay 2 life to look at thier hand? burn doesn't seem to interactive with what they have. if your just going for the cantrip, then what happens when you draw the land off of either probe or morph? burn seems better in a burn deck. As for no fetches with blaze... refer to tartell's comment

[kicbak]

I'm guessing he is doing the following with Gitaxian Probe, both for Kiln Fiend
1. Checks hand for removal to see if it is safe to "go off" this turn pumping the crap out of kiln fiend
2. It pumps kiln fiend for 2 life.

[Sims]

The cantrips are pretty obviously only there for Kiln Fiend, becaus they are "free" and replace themselves in your hand. I don't really care for the approach, however, but that's me.

I do also agree with Zach, 17 lands with 0 fetches seems bad with blaze, even with 8 cantrips.

[Tiago_B.]

Actually it isnt that bad as it seems, as long as he can cast the cantrips.

He's cutting 8 cards of the deck for cantrips

60 cards - 20 lands (pretty standard in burn i think)
8 cards - 2,666.... lands

So 17 lands actually make some sense. The thing is that one of the cantrips needs at least 2 mana to be cast, its not free like the probe.

Zero fetches is worse, and he runs Lavamancers and Searing Blaze, so he would benefit much from them.

I just rather run 12 fetches-8 mountains, instead of building my list around Kiln Fiend. But i believe its viable.

Why not run Spark Elemental over Chain lightning and use reckless charge over manamorphose (or both and cut something else)? It would give +6/0 to Kiln Fiend, and could pair nicely with the Elemental.

EDIT: Of course, it would make the deck more vulnerable to spot removal.

[Sturtzilla]

I have done some thinking about the proposed "Cantrip Burn List" and I do like the synergy that the proposed list could have.

1. The cantrips are free from a mana prespective
2. Drawing cards seems particularlly good in this build, as it allows you to dig into 3 damage per one mana invested spells. This has been an area of contention for awhile whether more burn or draw spells should be played such as Street Wraith, etc. In my opinion the above list would be a bit better than running wraith.
3. Probe provides some level or safety for Kiln Fiend/going off with him.
4. The "free" draw spells serve double duty in the lines of pumping Kiln Fiend and also digging into more low end and highly effective burn.


However with that all said, I think that there are two major issues with this deck.

1. Lack of fetch lands. Even after considering the possible synergy it still seems to me that you would want to play fetches to help make sure you can landfall for the Searing Blazes. Furthermore on this point I would probably try 18 lands. That just fells right to me. I know the curve maxes out at a converted mana cost of 2 and you have 8 cantrips, but 17 just seems too low.

2. This is my major issue with the deck and the reason I will more than likely never change my list to the one above: this deck would thrive in a meta with no spot removal. You have to hope your opponent doesn't have StP, PtE, Dismember, GftT, Smother, basically any kill spell or bounce spell. I hate to say it but most decks pack spot creature removal and IT WILL HOSE YOU. Sure you might get lucky and get in now and then with a huge Kiln Fiend for a win but that plan just seems subpar.

[Koby]

12 cyclers allow you to play a 48 card deck. This basically turns all the 4ofs in your deck into 5ofs. The primary drawback of cyclers is the delayed draw (Baubles) and life loss (Wraith).


Here's my current test list
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
3 Fireblast

4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Street Wraith


Circa December 2007. There's a reason why such lists aren't competitive, and using Gitaxian Probe over Bauble(s) and Street Wraith doesn't change a damn thing. Bad deck is still a bad deck.

[Tiago_B.]

I agree with the 18 lands.

Kiln Fiend is too vulnerable against removal, no evasion as well.....But given the right conditions its a powerhouse. That decklist isnt dependable on it, if they remove it its just a burn deck with a few cantrips that do 'almost' nothing. The problem with the cantrips is that it makes people assume they have a good hand.

EDIT: That first list benefits more from the cantrips than that G/R one. Cantrips pump the fiend and helps Lavamancer. It also ran Fireblast with Barbarian Ring, i dont like it.

[Clark Kant]

The only reason I wasn't playing fetchlands was because they were all in my other decks and I don't think they make that big a difference. But you're right, the deck does incrementally benefit from adding Fetchland to feed Lavamancer, enable Searing Blaze during your opponent's turn, and possibly make the cantrips better by thinning the deck of lands. So I will take apart one of my other decks and add them back in.

I prefer Price of Progress in the board because the deck often wins by turn three or four, and I find myself facing a lot of decks that don't play very many nonbasics (elves, merfolk, the gate, goblins, quinn, ichorid, storm combo decks of all sorts and many others)

The cantrips are extremely effective in getting me efficient burn spells (Every single burn spell I play deals atleast 3 damage for every mana it costs), feeding the yard for Lavamancer, and pumping Fiend.

That said, what do you guys think of this list...

Minerals
12 Fetchland
6 Mountain

Swarm
4 Goblin Guide - Zerglings
4 Grim Lavamancer - Hydralisks
4 Kiln Fiend - Ultralisks

Instants/Sorceries
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze

[Clark Kant]

Double post. Refer to my current list above.

[Sturtzilla]

The only reason I wasn't playing fetchlands was because they were all in my other decks and I don't think they make that big a difference. But you're right, the deck does incrementally benefit from adding 8 Fetchland to feed Lavamancer, enable Searing Blaze during your opponent's turn, and possibly make the cantrips better by thinning the deck of lands. So I will take apart one of my other decks and add them back in.

Fetchlands almost always help. There are very few situations, when playing burn, that I wouldn't want a fetchland over a mountain. Deck thinning is great as is giving more fuel to lavamancer and allowing landfall triggers.


I prefer Price of Progress in the board because the deck often wins by turn three or four, and I find myself facing a lot of decks that don't play very many nonbasics (elves, merfolk, the gate, goblins, quinn, ichorid, storm combo decks of all sorts and many others)

Fair enough. As long as you have considered it.


The cantrips are extremely effective in getting me efficient burn spells (Every single burn spell I play deals atleast 3 damage for every mana it costs), feeding the yard for Lavamancer, and pumping Fiend.

This is the bit of logic that I like about this build. Everything but the Searing Blaze and the creatures are 3 damage for one red mana invested. The free cantripping allows you to dig these core burn spells up, while pumping the fiend. My concern still remains that any deck with spot removal or blockers keeps you from the Kiln Fiend win strategy. You can invest all of the mana in the world and they can block with anything and it is all wasted effort. As for what to cut, since you are set on running this goofy "Cantrip Burn" list, I am leaning toward -2 Searing Blaze and +1 Lavamancer. This improves you average burn spell and increases lavamancing. Both of these could help. You can always move the two Searing Blazes to the board.

[Tiago_B.]

Hmm at first sight id cut maybe one lava spike...Searing Blaze and Rift Bolt are great with Kiln Fiend, so cutting them doesnt seem an option, and Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning can clear the way for the Fiend, while Lava Spike only targets the player.

EDIT: 18 lands seems the right amount....And now u got fetches. So going down to 17....

[Clark Kant]

My concern still remains that any deck with spot removal or blockers keeps you from the Kiln Fiend win strategy. You can invest all of the mana in the world and they can block with anything and it is all wasted effort.

You are NOT investing anything into Kiln Fiend. You're playing out your deck exactly as normal. A dead Kiln Fiend is no different than a dead Goblin Guide or a dead Lavamancer or any other dead creature in burn, you can still play out the rest of your burn list just fine to kill them off. This isn't a combo deck centered on Kiln Fiend. It's a burn deck that happens to play a few creatures, including one that happens to be a 7/2 or 10/2 for just two mana (Kiln Fiend).

Searing Blaze is there to clear the way of potential blockers while still damaging your opponent. Also, if your opponent is tapped out, or if you Probed and know that your opponent doesn't have removal, then and only then, in those two very common situations, you should burn their blocker and swing with Kiln Fiend for 7-10 damage.

If they are leaving blockers untapped fearing Kiln Fiend, rather than swinging at you, that just gives you more time to burn them out.

[Azel Orfat]

I'm gonna try this list with Kiln Fiend:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
8 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Red Elemantal Blast
SB: 4 Pyroblast

I think that Fiend can justify Searing Blaze main, but don't think so about Manamorphose. Manamorphose would force me to reduce a land to keep the rate, and one land hands can be problematic with Fiends (you can't use Manamorphose in that situation).

About the side, I suppose that the 8 REB will work well with Kiln Fiend against Merfolks and they allow me to switch the POP and Searing Blaze against MUC.

I haven't tested Kiln Fiend before so any advice would be appreciated. My main concern is that despite Fiend is supposed to work well with few creatures, I think that with only 12, it's gonna be hard to walk over the counterwall/removal.

Are you finding problems with those 12 creatures post MM?

[Clark Kant]

I disagree about Manamorphose and if you play with it, I think you would see why. But I understand the controversy. However, for the love of god, you absolutely have to play Probe if you're using Kiln Fiend.

Probe wins games consistently. It tells you when to Fireblast and when not to. It tells you when burning a blocker will enable you to swing with Goblin Guide for multiple turns. It tells you exactly what your opponent is holding and precisely when to go for the Kiln Fiend win by burning out a blocker. That kind of intel is gamebreaking, especially with Kiln Fiend. It also pumps Fiend and feeds Lavamancer. Heck, it even tells you when your opponent is light on lands and you should hold off on casting Goblin Guide. Plus, it combos with Goblin Guide to keep you informed of what's in your opponents hand at all times.

In summary, with your list above, I would try...

-2 Mountain (20 is too many)
-2 Searing Blaze (a dead card vs some matchups)
+4 Gitaxian Probe

There, your list would be pretty close to perfect.

If your meta is not crawling with nonbasics, I would also go...
-4 Price of Progress (suboptimal vs a number of matchups)
+4 Manamorphose

See how you like it.

[Azel Orfat]

Probe wins games consistently. It tells you when to Fireblast and when not to. It tells you when burning a blocker will enable you to swing with Goblin Guide for multiple turns. It tells you exactly what your opponent is holding and precisely when to go for the Kiln Fiend win by burning out a blocker. That kind of intel is gamebreaking, especially with Kiln Fiend. It also pumps Fiend and feeds Lavamancer. Heck, it even tells you when your opponent is light on lands and you should hold off on casting Goblin Guide. Plus, it combos with Goblin Guide to keep you informed of what's in your opponents hand at all times.

It looks more interesting than Manamorphose to me. I see the sense around it but it also has some little disadvantages (mulligan decission, increases cost cards, life lose) so I don't really know if it's worth. I can try them moving Searing Blaze to the side.

About the list I put, I was thinking about Show and Order and Hive Mind matches. Kiln Fiend seems great in combo matches but guess it' not going to work fine with the 8 REB here, so I don't know what should be my plan in those pairings. Any thoughts? Maybe Gitaxian Probe could help me in this case :laugh:

About other issue…What's your plan with Kiln Fiend against Tarmo? Neither a trade nor a stagnant situation seems good to me. So I guess that the best option is Searing Blaze+burn spell to kill it, and that requieres two card, 3 manas (daze can be problematic except with a suspended Rift Bolt) and landfall. So it doesn't seem very easy. That's why I thought in Dismember although I'm a little skeptical about it.

Maybe I'll try one of these lists:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
7 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Incinerate
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Searing Blaze
SB: 4 Pyroblast

One of my concerns about this one are blockers like Tarmogoyf. For example, should I board Searing Blaze against Team America? It's the best card to help me cleaning the way to Fiend but doesn't seem very good in this pairing.

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
8 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dismember
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Searing Blaze
SB: 4 Pyroblast

About this, I don't know if I run enough creatures to justify Dismember that is supposed to be a horrible topdeck. Maybe I could move them to side and Blaze to main. Also, I don't know if Dismember is really needed when Blaze can do a similar role against big creatures.

What list do you like more? Do you see something wrong in main or side?

As you see, at this moment I'm very confused, so don't try to find too much coherence in my posts :laugh:. Guess I “worry” too much about minor details... Any help would be appreciated.

[Clark Kant]

What list do you like more? Do you see something wrong in main or side?

The first is definitely better. For one thing Figure of Destiny does not belong in burn, it is too slow and too mana incentive. In particular, it makes no sense to run it alongside Grim Lavamancer which also eats up mana.

Dismember should not be maindeck, every maindeck spell must be capable of damaging your opponent.

Also Incinerate doesn't belong. Play Searing Blaze in it's place, it's a lot more efficient. I play two Searing Blaze but in most metas, you can easily support 4.

Also I get mana flooded with 18 lands so I prefer stop at 18.

I wouldn't sweat goyf too much. Kiln Fiend holding their goyf at bay just buys you several more turns to burn them out. I wouldn't burn out Goyf unless I can use a Searing Blaze to help do it or I can Probe to find out if my opponent has a way to kill Fiend. If they don't, then by all means kill Goyf. The burn you use just makes Fiend that much bigger. I've frequently checked their hand with probe, killed Goyf and attacked with a 10/2 or 13/2 Fiend for the win.

I highly encourage you to try this list, I think you will be very happy with it.

Minerals
12 Fetchland
6 Mountain

Swarm
4 Goblin Guide - Zerglings
4 Grim Lavamancer - Hydralisks
4 Kiln Fiend - Ultralisks

Instants/Sorceries
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze

[Sturtzilla]

You are NOT investing anything into Kiln Fiend. You're playing out your deck exactly as normal. A dead Kiln Fiend is no different than a dead Goblin Guide or a dead Lavamancer or any other dead creature in burn, you can still play out the rest of your burn list just fine to kill them off. This isn't a combo deck centered on Kiln Fiend. It's a burn deck that happens to play a few creatures, including one that happens to be a 7/2 or 10/2 for just two mana (Kiln Fiend).

I would have to disagree with your above statement. First off from a deck construction standpoint, you are investing 4 spots in your deck just to run Kiln Fiend. Subsequently you are also running your 8 free cantrip spells to allow you to dig and improve Kiln Fiend's usefulness. I am not saying this is bad but you have to reconigize that you are, just by sleeving this deck up, committing 12 slots to this creature that could be otherwise useful burn cards. Some examples: Price of Progress, Flame Rift, Hellspark Elemental, Magma Jet, Ankh of Mishra. Your cantrips lose nearly all of their value if you do not have the Kiln Fiend.

Furthermore in this build if your Kiln Fiend gets killed (or you don't draw him or can't play him) you have 8 cards in your deck that basically are blank draws. These will do no damage without Kiln Fiend and could be dedicated to more powerful slots. In these situations you will have to just play them and hope that you can find some more burn. However if you don't run the fetches, this might be harder than you expect. In some cases, I would bet you draw one of your cantrips to play it for the draw only to hit a land. This seems really subpar. Yet it could be potentially managed by the use of fetchlands. I still think that burn should run burn spells to reduce the usefulness of opposing removal and to remain consistent.

[Flan R-E]

@sturtzilla: i notice Ankh of Mishra included as a useful burn spell.

Isn't ankh of mishra more situational and less reliable, as well as being a worse topdeck, than kiln fiend?

[Sturtzilla]

Okay I will admit that is neither a burn spell nor consistent, but against many decks that run fetches, you can get 4 damage for 2 mana invested. It also generates virtual card advantage by sticking in play and having potential to net you more damage. Yes, it is a poor top deck, but in top deck mode Kiln Fiend is pretty terribad too. I would think what your opponent is playing and the game state would dictate which would be better as far as top decking. Lastly your opponent is less likely to have an answer for an Ankh while nearly all decks run creature removal or bounce which make Kiln Fiend pretty bad.

[Tiago_B.]

First off from a deck construction standpoint, you are investing 4 spots in your deck just to run Kiln Fiend. Subsequently you are also running your 8 free cantrip spells to allow you to dig and improve Kiln Fiend's usefulness.

Furthermore in this build if your Kiln Fiend gets killed (or you don't draw him or can't play him) you have 8 cards in your deck that basically are blank draws.

Yeah he could use those slots to run something else more powerfull or useful. However i disagree with this:

The cantrips get him another card, usually a burn spell that he will be able to use right away. That's more cards in the g-yard for Lavamancer, and more probability of drawing Kiln Fiend if he doesnt have it.

And the Probe, as he said, combos with Goblin Guide, so you know what your opponent has. Even if burn isnt a worrier's deck, it sure is useful information. So probe is hardly a blank draw.

[Sturtzilla]

Here are my thoughts.

1. This is an interesting concept that does appear to have some potential for great synergy.

2. There are better routes to victory for burn.

3. Kiln Fiend dies to basically every piece of removal in the format including decent sized creatures. People play removal.

4. There are non-removal means to deal with a pumped Kiln Fiend: block or bounce.

5. Without fetches your cantrips have less value as you will more often hit land on your draw. This seems especially bad with Manamorphose. You pay two mana, get two mana, then hit a land... not synergistic. Some people may call this bad luck, but you can reduce the statistics of this occurring through proper deck construction.

6. Ultimately I think it can work. Overall, I think there are stronger routes for this deck; however, if you are committed to this plan (which I understand [sometimes you just need to play what you want to play]) I do believe that you want to run 18 land probably 10 of which are fetchlands.

[Clark Kant]

I think youre really underselling Probe, MM, and Fiend Sturtzilla. They work great together but are still fantastic by themselves too. Try the list I posted just for a few games if you dont believe me.

[Sturtzilla]

I think youre really underselling Probe, MM, and Fiend Sturtzilla. They work great together but are still fantastic by themselves too. Try the list I posted just for a few games if you dont believe me.

I threw it together and played a few hands. Some were really good, while others I found myself wishing I had some regular burn cards. I also am not a big fan on how combat dependent the hands I played so far have seemed. I will tweak and see where this goes though. I will report my findings in a few days.

[Tiago_B.]

Manamorphose is clearly the worse of the 2 cantrips. The inclusion of fetches is as good as in a regular burn deck.

I think you could get the most out of Kiln Fiend in a RG list with cards like Rancor, Vines of Vastwood and similar cards. But that doesnt belong here.

[Clark Kant]

If you're playing creatures anyway (Lavamancer, Goblin Guide), then Kiln Fiend eating removal is no different than one of your other creatures eating removal.

If you play properly, Kiln Fiend getting killed never actually hurts you any more than if it were some other burn spell that happened to get countered. Quite a few games, it can gain you upwards of 16 life buying you more than enough time to finish off your opponent (had that happen to me on a few occasions when an opponent was forced to StP a massive Kiln Fiend in order to survive).

Also, plenty of players foolishly tap out even if they have a removal in hand, not realizing just how big Kiln Fiend can get in this deck. This happens the majority of game ones you play. In that case, you just burn the potential blocker potential and swing in with a 10/2 or so for the win.

And occasionally, yes you do have a Kiln Fiend essentially trade with one of your opponent's big creatures (one that would require multiple burn spells/searing blaze to kill). But so what? You're using a two casting cost spell to stop a huge creature that is too big to be killed by any other 1cc-2cc spell that burn has access to. That's not always a bad thing.

[DragoFireheart]

And occasionally, yes you do have a Kiln Fiend essentially trade with one of your opponent's big creatures (one that would require multiple burn spells/searing blaze to kill). But so what? You're using a two casting cost spell to stop a huge creature that is too big to be killed by any other 1cc-2cc spell that burn has access to. That's not always a bad thing.

This. The thing about Fiend is that you don't invest any other resources after casting him: just play your deck like normal and he can hit really hard. He also makes turn 3 kills against non-creature or creature light decks easy.

[Azel Orfat]

The first is definitely better. For one thing Figure of Destiny does not belong in burn, it is too slow and too mana incentive. In particular, it makes no sense to run it alongside Grim Lavamancer which also eats up mana.

Dismember should not be maindeck, every maindeck spell must be capable of damaging your opponent

About FOD at first I also was skeptical, but after testing Sullivan's list: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833&iddeck=42252 I can tell you that they worked well for me.

I'll finally try with the second list that I put, because 16 creatures give me more confidence against blue decks. I'll just move Dismember to the side and S.Blaze to main.

Anyway, thx for all the advice.

[Azel Orfat]

After some test I think that I'm now less confused ^^

About dealing with big creatures like Tarmo, for the time, I've discarded Dismember. Having both Dismember and Searing Blaze in side don't give me too much sense and in contrast to PTE, Dismember doesn't help against Reanimator or the annoying Kitchen Finks. And yes, cards that don't make damage can be problematic. Post MM I also tried evasion creatures like Kargan Dragonlord or Hell's Thunder because I felt that the deck needed a little more consistency, but now I think that so slow creatures end giving you more problems than help. So I guess that just trying to do some damage with low cost creatures before Tarmos/KOTR come into play (as it has always been xD) is the best way.

I've ended to this list:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
8 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Flame Rift
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 4 Searing Blaze
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt

Maybe FOD and Kiln don't fit very well together, but I don't find it significant. Other option could be the mythical Jackal Pup with its fleas ^^ instead of the FOD, but I guess that the Kithkin is better in any match except combo and Pup+Fiend would probably be too much horrible topdecks. What do you think?

About Gitaxian Probe I could make room to them in Rift Bolt slots, but I think that turn the Rift Bolts into more possible food to MM or even COTV is not a good idea. Also against decks like Zoo I'd probably board out the Fiends, and Gitaxian without Fiend hasn't too much sense to me. I've also moved Searing Blaze to the side because I think that facing Landstill/Control decks is now more usual and it gives me more flexibility against decks where I want fewer creatures or when I want to take out POP. In conclusion, I think that running the best main burn spells independently of Kiln Fiend is the best choice. Anyway Searing Blaze main didn't help Kiln Fiend against Combo where this creature is really needed.

About the side, with so many Stoneforge Mystic around, probably STS is a must. On Pyroblast I think that it's currently a great choice despite MM (S&T and Merfolks). And about Tormod, with Fiend in main, I think that it's a better choice than Pyrostatic Pillar, but of course side should be local.

I just wanted to make some comment after test, bye!

[Clark Kant]

It's not Kiln Fiend that Figure of Destiny is not great with. It's also not great with Lavamancer. Lavamancer eats up all your spare mana.

So I would probably go...
-3 Figure of Destiny
-1 Mountain
+4 Gitaxian Probe

Otherwise, your list looks perfect.

Also, against Zoo, I would board out Gitaxian Probe. Kiln Fiend is actually pretty useful against Zoo because it either takes out one of their big attackers, or forces them to sit around not attacking you while you burn them to death. And yes, I have blocked with a Kiln Fiend at a Goyf, and killed the Goyf by throwing a bunch of burn at the player.

Zoo has a faster clock than burn, however, a creature like Kiln Fiend can throw that math off by killing a Goyf and give us the advantage.

[Clark Kant]

Arc Trail is a fairly solid card for burn. It lets you ping away a Confidant or Hierach or Priest of Titania and still deal two damage to your opponent.

In the current sligh burn lists that people are doing well with, it can open up some really awesome combat tricks.

I think it warrants some slots.

[Azel Orfat]

It's not Kiln Fiend that Figure of Destiny is not great with. It's also not great with Lavamancer. Lavamancer eats up all your spare mana.
I don't see any problem with FOD-Grim. About FOD-Kiln, well, Kiln Fiend "demands" you to spend mana in Burn spells and with FOD in theory, you want to pump it first, keeping your Burn spells for later, but I can neither call it a problem. Anyway, in real game, having both in play is not very usual (counters/removal) and if it happens, it will surely mean that you have won. So I'd say that just running the best red creatures available withouth worrying in minor details is the best option.

About Arc Trail it can only do 2 damage to a player and IMO direct damage should be the most important part here. I guess that it's more a side card and in side we have Searing Blaze that it's better. Anyway if you try it, it'd be great to read your thoughts.

[Gheizen64]

Arc trail is good only with a LOT of 1-mana heavy hitters. Like Nacatl, Goblin Guide and Lynx. In pure burn i think he'd be rarely worth it.

Just saying, but in overextended a lot of people play burn with Shrine of Burning Rage. The card work like a vial for burn, if it stick, every turn and every spell you cast (even countered) is 1 damage. However, it's a lot like ankh, in the sense that you don't want to draw it later on. Differently from ankh, however, it give you more reach and it isn't dead against decks like merfolk. Not sure if it deserve a slot, but i'll be testing it in a pure burn list with no creatures except lavamancer.

[Clark Kant]

I already maindeck two Searing Blaze so my sideboard has the room for Arc Trail. I will be trying it out because it has definate potential against decks with weenies or utility creatures and as a combat trick with our own creatures.

Actually, my biggest problem with Figure of Destiny is that it's NOT an efficient creature and it's NOT a fast creature, and burn is all about speed and efficiency. It's not even an evasive creature or an untargetable creature to justify the high mana investment.

With FoD, you're either getting a vanilla 1/1 for 1, a vanilla 2/2 for 2, a vanilla nonevasive and easy to remove 4/4 for 5. None of those options are mana efficient and none of them are fast.

So that's actually the biggest reason why it doesn't fit in burn. Add in to it the fact that Lavamancer eats up a spare mana every single turn, and also really likes spells that end up in the graveyard, and that Kiln Fiend too like spells, and it just adds to the reasons why FoD shouldn't be in the deck.

[Sturtzilla]

Well I have done quite a bit of testing with the "Cantrip Burn" lists we have been kicking around here in this forum. My thoughts on the list are rather conflicted. I really like how explosive this list can be with a quick Kiln Fiend. In the right match ups we can just blow right through an opponent and burn/kiln fiend them out in turn 3-4. On the other hand I don't like how sometimes you will have a hand full of cantrips that you need to cycle through to dig to actual burn. Ultimately, I don't think this build really fits how I like to run this deck. I still think that the decks has the weaknesses that I have already noted in this forum, but I will agree that it can be pretty devastating.

[Azel Orfat]

Hey again. As I haven't yet too much experience with Kiln Fiend , I wanted to ask you about it against Landstill. I've found that Mishras are quite annoying to Fiend. The deck has very few instants to deal with them and it's not the pairing where I'd want to board Smash to Smithereens or Searing Blaze... Maybe against more new builds like this: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6259&iddeck=45378 I could consider to board some of those cards. What do you think? How is your experience with Kiln Fiend against Landstill?

[Fry]

Arc Trail is a fairly solid card for burn. It lets you ping away a Confidant or Hierach or Priest of Titania and still deal two damage to your opponent.

In the current sligh burn lists that people are doing well with, it can open up some really awesome combat tricks.

I think it warrants some slots.

read arc trail, it says sorcery, no combat tricks

[Sturtzilla]

read arc trail, it says sorcery, no combat tricks

LOLZ... I agree. Maybe it could be useful to take out a chump blocker, still get two through to the opponet's face, and be able to beat with goblin guide. But using it during your first main phase kind of takes away the suprise/combat trick nature of the play. In my opinion Arc Trail is decent but we really have better options for this deck.

[Clark Kant]

Oh, NM then. Yeah, as a Sorcery, Arc Trails sucks.

[ThoSha]

According to the Stoneforge Skull flooded meta, i was looking back at a secret tech including Sudden Shock.
Just cut 3 Magma Jets and include this, it could seriously rock these days.

[Sturtzilla]

According to the Stoneforge Skull flooded meta, i was looking back at a secret tech including Sudden Shock. Just cut 3 Magma Jets and include this, it could seriously rock these days.

Why is this any better than any of the other burn you could play? Your opponent plays SFM, you kill it with Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, and Fireblast before the SFM is active. It just seems like subpar burn in nearly every situation other than a resolved SFM. You are reducing your burn density and already have maindeck answers (one third to one half of your deck should be able to answer this threat, building pending) to SFM. Sounds poor to me.

[ThoSha]

Why is this any better than any of the other burn you could play? Your opponent plays SFM, you kill it with Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, and Fireblast before the SFM is active. It just seems like subpar burn in nearly every situation other than a resolved SFM. You are reducing your burn density and already have maindeck answers (one third to one half of your deck should be able to answer this threat, building pending) to SFM. Sounds poor to me.

So you dont hear "mental misstep, counterspell, force" as often while touching SFM like I do?
If you dont, thats fine. If you do, either lose a 2nd burn spell which could be countered too or lose to Batterskull next turn.

Forgot to mention that it is really nice against Merfolk too.
Uncounterable Lord removal is just priceless. :D

[DragoFireheart]

Why is this any better than any of the other burn you could play?

Because I can kill any number of creatures without it being countered?


Grim Lavamancer
Stoneforge Mystic
Vendilion Clique
Lord of Atlantis
Coralhelm Commander
Merrow Reejerey
Dark Confidant

[Sturtzilla]

Great points! I had considered the uncounterability but hadn't really made the connection of SFM deck having countermagic (which of course they do). You guys are right on that most of them have been running blue and countermagic. You can see that most of my playtesting and piloting recently has gone to a different deck (one that runs blue and doesn't worry about that deck: Reanimator). Making those considerations, I would say that we still have the great option of Grim Lavamancer to take care of the SFM, but the sudden shock could be a great sideboard card to help save this match up.

[Addendum]

So i dunno if this/where has been posted but what about a list like:

Lands
4 great furnace
1x mountains
x fetches

Spells
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
4 galvanic blast
4 shrapnel blast

enchantment
3 sulfuric vortex

creatures
4 etched champion

Artifacts
3 ensnaring bridge
3 ankh of mishra
2 chrome mox (maybe boost to 3 or 4)

a list that takes advantage of efficient burn like galvanic and shrapnel. ensnaring bridge for when you run out of cards. vortex for again, bridge plus no cards. and then the champion if have to do a slow beat down.

just an outline, what you guys think?

[Sturtzilla]

Not to be rude but this and/or similar builds have been considered. The problem is that by substituting a good number of cards like Chrome Mox, Etched Champion, and artifact reliant burn (Galvanic Blast and Shrapnel Blast), you decrease the consistency, card advantage, and the speed of the deck. You substitute solid burn spells for one that are situationally more powerful. Sure shrapnel blast is a better card than flame rift, but that is assuming that you can pay the additional cost. You more than likely will not be able to afford the cost in every match. This makes spells you are intending to play inherently worse (in the case of a 2 damage Galv Blast), or unplayable (in the case of a no artifact shrapnel blast). I don't want to say that is a bad list, but I feel that we have stronger more consistent lists floating around out here. But hey, if you think it can survive in your meta, go for it. Please let us know how it goes. I haven't heard much from burn decks in the lines of tournament reports lately. Due to that I am open to input. Good Luck.

[Simonth]

But isn't Volcanic Fallout much better than Sudden Shock? For 1 mana more you get 2 dmg to all creatures and also for the player, what a burn deck should be about.

[Tiago_B.]

yeah but considering that if ur opponent is on the play, he can get a batterskull before u can play volcanic fallout (and then ur screwed).......sudden shock can kill stoneforge much faster.

[ThoSha]

Considering that you already run 4 Vortex like I do, you dont really have place for other 3cmc spells like fallout. I think Sudden Shock is a far better choice.

[Sturtzilla]

I have to agree. Volcanic Fallout is good, but in the case that you are on the draw, your opponent can have a Batterskull out before you have mana to VF to take out an opposing SFM. In addition, a deck running a burn strategy, shouldn't saturate its mana curve with 3 converted mana cost cards. This makes it hard to get any/fast damage through to win the game. I would still go with sudden shock here.

[dontbiteitholmes]

According to the Stoneforge Skull flooded meta, i was looking back at a secret tech including Sudden Shock.
Just cut 3 Magma Jets and include this, it could seriously rock these days.

Whoaoaoaoahhh, slow down there. I know people are quick to trash Magma Jet and all whenever they look for a spot to fit whatever new card they want, but slow down a minute. Magma Jet is probably one of the BEST spells in the deck. I don't see how anyone could cut that for Sudden Shock which is worse vs. any deck without counters and won't win you as many games as Jet by far. Think of how many times you've Jetted two lands to the bottom of your deck, congratulations, you probably just remembered a time Jet won you the game. Instead of cutting Jet to have a slightly better chance of killing SFM why not just step up to 4 Sulfuric Vortex if you haven't already and Volcanic Fallout, which is far far far far better than any Sudden Shock would ever have been any time I've played it. The only time I wish it was Sudden Shock is when I get stuck on 2 lands, but then if I had a Sudden Shock I'd wish it was a Magma Jet.

Let's not forget we have at least 16 spells to throw at SFM. If you go first and you know their deck probably best to wait until T2 to suspend a Rift Bolt to make them hold back on SFM. The only real threat is when they go first and drop him T2 and you only have mana for one answer so you only get that one shot. That asside if he hits he still ends up smoldering ash vs. me about 4/5 of the time if not more. With all that in mind I'd rather take my chances. I'll run Volcanic Fallout in the "Sudden Shock" slot personally, talk about leagues better vs. Merfolk and the % of time my opponent drops a SFM and I can't kill it with burn in my hand and I don't have the 3rd land and I have Volcanic Fallout I'll just shrug and hope I land a Vortex quick, can't win em all.

[Lim-Dul]

i am a control-player (BUG-Landstill) and i realized that i loose to burn very often.. too often for my taste..

i am asking the burn-players what do you DONT want to see coming in from a SB in MUs agaist control (MUC, UW- or BUG-Landstill)?

If i know what you are most afraid of, that would help.. thanks.. :confused:

[Sturtzilla]

i am asking the burn-players what do you DONT want to see coming in from a SB in MUs agaist control?

Counterbalance...

Seriously, most current control schemes don't really kill burn. They sure as hell will slow it down. Your discard and counterspells sure can put us behind where we would like to be ideally, but a deck with the proper construction should have thinned its mana base a good bit and will just rip more burn spells. An early one-two punch of thoughtseize and hymn can put us way behind. Yet, even sometimes that is a loss that can be recoverable (it is hard to do, but with the right hand and top decks, is possible). MM is really good against our deck, but I assume you already run those in the main... so I guess I will have to say Blue Elemental Blast. It counters/destroys everything that we play. If you find yourself losing to Burn, substitute out normal removal (say - 4 Dismember, this also saves you life in casting costs) and replace it with BEB. Good Luck.

[catmint]

As a non burn player, I have to say I also hate to play and espially loose to burn (playing TA, NO RUG and elves). What do you really loose to a lot? In the scg open "too much information" analysis you can see that Burn performes poorly since the post MM area.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22293_Too_Much_Information_Baltimore_Legacy_Open.html

Maybe it is because most really good players like to actually play magic and not just burn the face. :)
What do you guys think?

[Sturtzilla]

@ catmint

That is a really interesting article. I loved the read by the way. I would have to agree with you that many, if not most, players like to actually "play" the game. By that I mean, these individuals enjoy invoking some strategy that is a bit more complex or more resilient than the 6-7 card combo that the "Burn to the Face" plan embodies. On the other hand there is something alluring about a plan that simple. Sure it does not ususally allow for multiple lines of play, but it offers a powerful "Plan A."

Again, the conceptualization that mental misstep has made burn a harder deck to win with is not entirely true. If a player pays the 2 life for a MM, they effectively have prevented 1 damage. Sure that can have an effect. If they use it to counter a Goblin Guide or Grim Lavamancer, then they may have prevented more life loss. But on the other hand, mid to late game you opponent will have hard counters for half of your deck. It really comes done to when and how they use their counter magic.

I think a combination of two factor make this deck popular, while two other factors keep it from posting results. People play this deck because it is straight forward to play and cheap to build. This deck doesn't usually win because it isn't positioned particullarly well in the metagame (I would argue after playing if for awhile that it doesn't really dominate any metagame. I does a better job at being consistent and punishing opponents for poor deck building and playskill.) and good players like to play stronger decks.

This deck will generally lose to a resolved Batterskull (providing the opponet is out of burn range), Counterbalance, Reanimator, Decks with Mental Misstep, Decks with Hymn to Tourach. Does that help?

[crovakiet]

As both a burn player and a control player (landstill, stoneblade, etc) I find that traditional control decks will usually 'stabilize' at around 6 life or less if all burn went to the dome and the burn deck is now in top deck mode. The problem is that the burn player tends to have much better top decks(if they are playing around 16-17 lands with more than half being fetches i.e. 10-12 and a mana curve of 2) than the control player especially game 1 due to the control player essentially having dead removal spells or conditionals. The only real way to shore up this matchup as a control player is to play the elemental blast(s) like hydro/blue, make sure when you fetch lands to get basics so you don't get blown out by Price of Progress, and/or play weird life gain cards maybe even possibly that new 'timely reinforcements' from m12. Actually I think the control player just wins if they play timely reinforcements.

I think the reason why its been bad in the current metagame is probably due to the following factors:

1) The deck goldfishes turn 4 and other decks can win faster
2) Let's face it, less players overall play burn. Why play burn when you can play force of will, dual lands with no drawbacks and generally all the expensive legacy cards?
3) Mental misstep is packed into hella decks so you can always count on one of your burn spells being countered for 1 mana as I don't think the control player will actually pay the 2 life to phyrexian mana it unless it's a grim lavamancer and he doesn't have a swords for it.
4) If there is repeated hand disruption on the burn player, its like a time walk for the opponent since the burn player will have to wait extra turns to see more business spells which should give the opponent ample time to find something to end the game quick i.e. Tarmogoyf/TombStalker etc.

[andrebonotto]

Hi guys,

I am tuning a competitive Legacy Burn deck, and I would like to know how your lists look like on this metagame loaded with Mental Missteps and Stoneforge-Batterskulls.

Thanks in advance.

[Zalren]

What about using Chandra's Phoenix in burn? It is easily recurrable if it dies to most of the removal in the format...except Swords to Plowshares of course.

[Mr Pirakos]

What about using Chandra's Phoenix in burn? It is easily recurrable if it dies to most of the removal in the format...except Swords to Plowshares of course.

It costs too much to cast. In a creature-based rdw sort of deck it might work alongside Kiln Fiend. Other than that, it's not good.

[Deck Dont Matter]

after playing goblins for a bit Ive been back more on to the Burn plan...thought Id post my newest list that I have been testing...

4x Kiln Fiend
4x Grim lavamance
4x Goblin Guide

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Fireblast
4x Brainstorm
4x Fire/Ice
3x Price of Progress
3x Lava Spike/Rift Bolt
3x Mental Misstep

12x Red Fetches
4x Volcanic Island
3x Mountain

SB
4x Spell Pierce
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Smash to Smithereens
2x Pyroblast
3x tormod's Crypt

It has been alot of fun to test latly and keeps trying to get the numbers right...I think the spells are right but maybe the numbers will change up

[Caralord]

Hello everyone!

I've been studying Burn for a while and just found this thread.

There are good ideas about Kiln Fiend and I think this is a good card increasing the probability for a turn-3 kill...but this is not going to happen really often in practice.
Most competitive deck will have something against it: Control will have removal and Aggro will have creatures (Kiln Fiend has no evasion).
Thinking you will have enough blast to sweep the board for a giant -not removed- Kill Fiend is pure utopia.

Did you run this deck at a competitive level with a large variety of opponents? I really like the idea and the synergy but I think this is too meta-oriented... In my opinion that kind of list is suboptimal for most of metagames but will do very well against combo and will do better than a regular burn in a meta full of combo player.

I personnally run Kiln Fiend for casual because most of my friends play combo winning consistently on turn 3. In a goldfish race, a regular burn rarely wins before turn 4.

[kiri]

Hi guys,

I am tuning a competitive Legacy Burn deck, and I would like to know how your lists look like on this metagame loaded with Mental Missteps and Stoneforge-Batterskulls.

Thanks in advance.

I think having Sulfuric Vortex is the only way for you to counter Batterskull's lifelink then you just have to race it.

You might want to board in a Vexing Shusher if you really hate Mental Missteps, otherwise you just have to use your spells wisely.

I usually play T1 Rift Bolt so it can't be countered by Mental Misstep then you can play Vexing Shusher at T2.

I don't have a Vexing Shusher yet and haven't tried it out but I saw a friend use it main deck and he got top 4 in a local tourney. 3 pieces main deck is probably good if you don't like being countered.

[andrebonotto]

I think having Sulfuric Vortex is the only way for you to counter Batterskull's lifelink then you just have to race it.

You might want to board in a Vexing Shusher if you really hate Mental Missteps, otherwise you just have to use your spells wisely.

I usually play T1 Rift Bolt so it can't be countered by Mental Misstep then you can play Vexing Shusher at T2.

I don't have a Vexing Shusher yet and haven't tried it out but I saw a friend use it main deck and he got top 4 in a local tourney. 3 pieces main deck is probably good if you don't like being countered.

Hmm... Interesting insights. I'll test them when able.

And what do you think of us running 4x Mental Misstep of our own?

[Mr. Safety]

I've been suggesting Sulfuric Vortex maindeck to my friends for years in burn decks...it isn't just 'anti-lifegain'...it establishes inevitability. Your damage potential is so much greater than almost any deck, but sometimes the math just doesn't add up by turn 3. That the extra 2 damage a turn really makes a difference in the mid-late game when you need to be cleaning up. Also, remember that there is very little maindeck enchantment hate (Pridemage is all I can think of) and who sides in enchantment hate vs. burn?

Burn can put up 9+ damage during turns 2-4. Not many other decks can do that other than combo decks. Adding Vortex means if you don't finish off in the early game, you can have some great reach late game. You can usually get Vortex online fast enough to negate Batterskull's lifelink, too (especially considering you have so many maindeck removals for Mystic...)

[kiri]

Hmm... Interesting insights. I'll test them when able.

And what do you think of us running 4x Mental Misstep of our own?

What do you want to counter with Mental Misstep? Is it a creature? Then bolt it. Burn has its own counter spells too, you can use Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast, very useful against Hivemind and Show and Tell. And the thing about Burn is that every card in your hand is important, you want to defeat your enemy ASAP; imagine your opponent is down to 3 and you draw a Mental Misstep instead.


Mr. Safety, what enchantments did you find annoying? The things annoying for me so far are artifacts, one of them is Thorn of Amethyst though it can be destroyed with Shattering Spree or Smash to Smithereens.

[bowvamp]

The main reason to run MM as I recall is tempo. It's not meant to counter anything, just to slow people down. Burn doesn't want things to be slow.