[Deck] Burn

[Mr. Safety]

What do you want to counter with Mental Misstep? Is it a creature? Then bolt it. Burn has its own counter spells too, you can use Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast, very useful against Hivemind and Show and Tell. And the thing about Burn is that every card in your hand is important, you want to defeat your enemy ASAP; imagine your opponent is down to 3 and you draw a Mental Misstep instead.


Mr. Safety, what enchantments did you find annoying? The things annoying for me so far are artifacts, one of them is Thorn of Amethyst though it can be destroyed with Shattering Spree or Smash to Smithereens.

I would play Mental Misstep in burn if I was using 20 lands that included 4 Wastelands. As Bowvamp said, it's about tempo. Turn 1 is huge for burn or sligh decks...make turn 1 theoretically last longer with these elements. It's not traditional, but it can work, especially in an environment chock full of combo like TES, ANT, Solidarity, or Elves. Mental Misstep is essentially your combo hate, and Wasteland can deny them the mana to pull off their tutors. I would question whether Pyrostatic Pillar would be better in that environment though, because you can have a similar win-speed as combo, and Pillar usually can shut them down.

Annoying enchantments against burn? Leyline of Sanctity is auto-scoop for burn, seriously. If you expect to see Leyline, I would play a more sligh-oriented list so you can have an actual board presence (Goblin Guide, Kiln Fiend, Keldon Marauders) Again, Sulfuric Vortex shines here because it doesn't target. Another one that is annoying is Solitary Confinement, but enchantress has been a little scarce as of late.

Thorn of Amethyst is annoying for sure, and your hates are good options. I don't see Thorn much except for in Elves combo sideboards though...it's pretty narrow. If that's the case, I would play artifact hates and Pillar in the sideboard. The really problematic artifact ATM is Batterskull.

Late game reach has always been a problem with Burn against decks that can stabilize at a low life. Grim Lavamancer helps, and once again I will tout Sulfuric Vortex. Magma Jet is really good in that kind of environment, because you really want to ensure card quality when top-decking. I'f toyed with a lot of options in this arena of library manipulation, among them:

Browbeat
Sensei's Divining Top
Forgotten Cave
Mindstorm Crown
Sylvan Library (green splash, included Goofy and K-Grips in board)
Magma Jet


Essentially, your 'good' card are Magma Jet and the green splash, causing you to head over to the Goyf Sligh thread, lol. Tapped lands are horrible, especially since they can't feed Fireblasts, so Forgotten Cave is out. SDT can work for you, seriously. I just wouldn't play more than 1-2. I'd probably play 19-20 lands in that version so you have spare mana to dig for burn. Mindstorm Crown was really fun...but it just costs too damn much. I played a casual burn deck for a while using Shrapnel Blast and Pyrite Spellbomb along with Crown...it was fun, and i used Great Furnace as well, but Wasteland poo-poo-ed on my parade too often to make it competitive. Also, whould you rather pay 3 for Crown or Vortex? My vote goes to Vortex. Ditto with Browbeat, they almost always take the 5 life hit rather than give you potentially 3 bolts for 9 life, so it really isn't a draw spell...it's a 'counter it or take 5' spell for 3 mana. Not bad, but not always good either.

Good luck!

[kiri]

Thank you for the useful information! I'll take note of these. :D

[Solthos]

Browbeat
Sensei's Divining Top
Forgotten Cave
Mindstorm Crown
Sylvan Library (green splash, included Goofy and K-Grips in board)
Magma Jet



Is Top worth plugging in Burn? It seems interesting yet it might cause mana issues. I can definitely see Browbeat in the deck as it means eat 5 damage or let me draw some more burn.

What do you guys think about Spark Elemental ?

[Caralord]

What do you guys think about Spark Elemental ?

This one is not so good because at his best it's a lava spike... But in worst case, it can be easily blocked, removed and it's a terrible topdeck.

Good on turn 1 but mostly useless after.

[ElmoTRM]

What about Pyromancer's Ascension? Would it work well in a burn deck?

[paeng4983]

What about Pyromancer's Ascension? Would it work well in a burn deck?

Pyromancer's Ascension works best when you have can trips to fix your hand and GY. Other than that, well, i really can't tell if Pyromancer would be that good. Burn's natural fixers are fetches, magma jet, and others sensei top.

[andrebonotto]

I've been suggesting Sulfuric Vortex maindeck to my friends for years in burn decks...it isn't just 'anti-lifegain'...it establishes inevitability. Your damage potential is so much greater than almost any deck, but sometimes the math just doesn't add up by turn 3. That the extra 2 damage a turn really makes a difference in the mid-late game when you need to be cleaning up. Also, remember that there is very little maindeck enchantment hate (Pridemage is all I can think of) and who sides in enchantment hate vs. burn?

Burn can put up 9+ damage during turns 2-4. Not many other decks can do that other than combo decks. Adding Vortex means if you don't finish off in the early game, you can have some great reach late game. You can usually get Vortex online fast enough to negate Batterskull's lifelink, too (especially considering you have so many maindeck removals for Mystic...)

I confess I was a little skeptical about Sulfuric Vortex at first (beacause it costs 3, what I considered that was too much).

But after reading this I'll definitly try it. How many of them would be optimum?

[andrebonotto]

What do you want to counter with Mental Misstep? Is it a creature? Then bolt it. Burn has its own counter spells too, you can use Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast, very useful against Hivemind and Show and Tell. And the thing about Burn is that every card in your hand is important, you want to defeat your enemy ASAP; imagine your opponent is down to 3 and you draw a Mental Misstep instead.



Well, you're right about trying to find a good reason to play MM. I guess I just don't have it - maybe I was only a bit "scaried" about all these MM's that are dancing around my meta. :rolleyes:

Although the suggestion of a version with MM + Wasteland can be interesting to test sometime...

[paeng4983]

I confess I was a little skeptical about Sulfuric Vortex at first (beacause it costs 3, what I considered that was too much).

But after reading this I'll definitly try it. How many of them would be optimum?

Sulfuric vortex is great. It can save you from those sfm-batterskull thing meta. It just not stop them from gaining life but also it gives two damage per upkeep. :) I have 3 MD because our meta here loves to abuse the duo, sfm-batterskull.

btw, I used this deck at yesterday's tournament. i won my 1st two games (gobs and GW mavs) but lost my last two (reanimator and merfolk). MM is a great thing. It helps burn by chipping-off two of his life pts. :) Our bolts will be just a shock. :)

[Abantau]

I second paeng on the sfm batterskull combination which is very rampant in the meta. I have the patrick sullivan build but changed flame rift to 4 sulfuric vortex, while vexing shusher instead of 8 reb/pyroblast on sb. With no rug and u/w dominating the meta uncountered bolts.

@ paeng: see you tomorrow at the tournament!

[tsabo_tavoc]

Today is the Burn Day!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123931&stc=1&d=1315824159

We get the 5th Bolt. It is not much stressful to fit in 2 Badland, and black has also nice SB options.

12 Fetches
2 Badland
6 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
20 Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress / Searing Blaze
4 Flamerift

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123920&d=1315800071

This can certainly find places in builds with Keldon Marauder.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Today is the Burn Day!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123931&stc=1&d=1315824159

We get the 5th Bolt. It is not much stressful to fit in 2 Badland, and black has also nice SB options.

12 Fetches
2 Badland
6 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
20 Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress / Searing Blaze
4 Flamerift

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123920&d=1315800071

This can certainly find places in builds with Keldon Marauder.

[Lancer]

I'm a little thrilled about Brimstone Valley, since the card can replace Browbeat, infact placing the final nail in the Browbeat coffin. [I know there are many burn players that dont like browbeat] It does make sense to combo with Keldon Marauder, though I believe there's a need for a mogg fanatic 2.0 with the Marauder or we are looking at a 3 damage spell for 3cc.

Bump in the Night is exciting! I was a big black/red necro player so it's nice to find a use for those badlands once again.

I'm slightly debating on adding Bob to a burn deck. Fireblast, riftbolt and whatever 3cc spells sucks ass!

On there otherhand I've been looking for a use for Kederekt Parasite for sometime.

[ThoSha]

Burn with Bob makes sense. I thought of that a while ago either and came to the conclusion splashing black just for bob sucks. But now theres another good reason to do it.

Brimstone Valley sucks ass, its not nearly as efficient as Browbeat. The bad thing on browbeat was the drawback that it mostly just does 5 for cmc3. I would play Vortex in this slot anyway. Much better card than a "big" bolt.

[bowvamp]

Bump in the Night isn't even slightly comparable to bolt. It's lava spike for black. When lava spike was introduced, it was a debatable conclusion. This card does not make it a good idea to splash black. Also, I'm sure that this has been asked at one point or another, but what does everyone think of Shrine of Burning Rage? I think it's better than Vortex, that's for sure.

[Curby]

If it were better than Vortex, people would use it. No one uses it.

[bowvamp]

Haha kirby. I know it's not life loss, but redirect and stifle effects aren't exactly running all over the place. Every red spell you play gets you a turn ahead of Vortex. It's also only a 2 mana investment up front.

EDIT: I feel like such a tool now. Lol, I didn't know that it was 2 damage a turn effectively. That makes vortex much better (but still not cutting it for my md).

[Curby]

Ok, I'll be more specific.

1) One of Burn's worst enemies is life gain. This card does nothing to negate life gain.

2) Sulfuric vortex can be very roughly equated to two damage per turn for a single investment of 3 mana, and starts taking effect as soon as turn three. This card takes a total of five mana, only does damage once, needs time to ramp up, and in my estimation will do less overall damage than the Vortex. It will certainly do less damage per mana invested, which ends up slowing you down.

By all means, test it out and tell us what you think. Make sure you test against decks running Rhox War Monk, Jitte, and/or Batterskull. I love to be proven wrong, but think you'll have an uphill battle attempting to do so in this case.

[keys]

What's better in Sullivan style burn, Figure of Destiny or Kargan Dragonlord? With MM out of the picture, I am leaning towards Figure, but the flying on the Dragon is pretty good.

[RogueMTG]

What's better in Sullivan style burn, Figure of Destiny or Kargan Dragonlord? With MM out of the picture, I am leaning towards Figure, but the flying on the Dragon is pretty good.

After some testing, I came to the conclusion that they both kind of suck. Horrible top decks lategame and too slow early on, I really never wanted to see either. What does the rest of your list look like?

[Curby]

That said, I like FoD. Imagine pumping 5 mana into Dragonlord, and just when you're about to get him to a 4/4, they remove him. Starting small is good, and pumping at instant speed is good. That said, I don't think I'd run them either. Lavamancers, Hellspark Elementals, etc. will likely do more for you than these.

[Gollus]

I think instant speed pump is way better, but as already said, they are both suboptimal.

After the banning of Mental Misstep, will counterbalance rise again?
Fast combo will definitely try get in the lead of the meta. And Burn is a little bit too slow against it.

Has anyone already tested a list with black?

[Curby]

There's some discussion of Bump in the Night over at MTGS. But really, the best reason to splash black is for the sideboard (Perish against Goyf/Knight, etc.), and it's not clear that there's a net benefit.

[Lancer]

There's some discussion of Bump in the Night over at MTGS. But really, the best reason to splash black is for the sideboard (Perish against Goyf/Knight, etc.), and it's not clear that there's a net benefit.

I've been testing bump and it's best in those builds that are using fetchlands.

Although I might omit bump for Dr Vincent Price (The Fly) [The 3/2 blue flying transformer] it seems like a good card with Goblin Guide and he offer evasion.

[zmattk]

Hey guys, I haven't played too much burn but I figured I'd make the deck since I have all the cards and MM is banned now. I've been looking at some of the mono R lists and I see a lot of people playing Shard Volley instead of Magma Jet. Is Magma Jet just too outdated now and the 2 cc and 2 damage just not good enough even with scry?

Also I do not plan on playing black since if I wanted to buy confidants and badlands I'd just make a different deck.

[Lancer]

Hey guys, I haven't played too much burn but I figured I'd make the deck since I have all the cards and MM is banned now. I've been looking at some of the mono R lists and I see a lot of people playing Shard Volley instead of Magma Jet. Is Magma Jet just too outdated now and the 2 cc and 2 damage just not good enough even with scry?

Also I do not plan on playing black since if I wanted to buy confidants and badlands I'd just make a different deck.

wow... Social influence...

Sorry you have been mistaken, burn was really strong when Mental Misstep was legal because combo was really put into check due to fear, now we must battle combo.

anyway...

Shard Volley sucks because the card requires a mountain and we play fireblast.

I'm not really a fan of Magma Jet because a good build dont need to scry, although players that play with 20 to 22 mountains may find Magma Jet helpful... then again 22 lands is too much IMHO

Bob sucks, for starters we play fireblast (a 6 damage hit) but what makes the card worse is that we are skipping turn 2 for a draw at turn 3.

[sligh16]

Haha kirby. I know it's not life loss, but redirect and stifle effects aren't exactly running all over the place. Every red spell you play gets you a turn ahead of Vortex. It's also only a 2 mana investment up front.

EDIT: I feel like such a tool now. Lol, I didn't know that it was 2 damage a turn effectively. That makes vortex much better (but still not cutting it for my md).

I play 3 shrines in Sligh and has been totally awesome. It almost reads: "your red cards deal 1 more damage to target player" It fixes the problem of losing gas in the lategame that almost all mono red burn heavy decks have, and can easily deal 8 damage by it's own. 3 copies seem fine to me, and I wouldn't compare it to Vortex. Each one has it's advantages, and playing both in the deck seems totally fine for me.

[Kanadell~]

IMO, Bump in the night is not worth to splash only for it, cause it makes our manabase weaker. And brimstone volley is not so god 'cause it costs 3 and does 5 in the best case, so it's not worth it.

[ryaneriggs]

Artifacts
4x Great Furnace
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Ankh of Mishra
4x Urza's Bauble
4x Lodestone Bauble

Creatures
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Land
12x Mountain

Spells
4x Fireblast
4x Lava Spike
4x Rite of Flame
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lightning Bolt

Sideboard
3x Smash to Smithereens/Shattering Spree
3x Scald
3x Shrapnel Blast
3x Goblin Arsonist
3x Red Elemental Blast/Guttural Response

My take on Ankh Burn...also with Baubles for ultimate drawing potential and some ramp...what do you think?

[DragoFireheart]

Burn loses to a resolved Batterskull. Burn loses to Storm or Reanimator getting Iona. This are issues that need to be resolved before Burn can compete.

[Azel Orfat]

A Burn deck made top8 in Eternal Weekend (spanish tournament). Here is the list:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6904&iddeck=50088

I guess he wanted to go well prepared against Batterskull. I hope to see more burn good results in next tournaments ^^

[Kanadell~]

I also did Top8 in a legacy league tournament in my city. I went undefeated all the 5 rounds, but I lost 2-1 vs Cephalid breakfast in the first match of the Top8.

BTW, Sulfuric vortex saved me from dying many times.

[Kanadell~]

I also did Top8 in a legacy league tournament in my city. I went undefeated all the 5 rounds, but I lost 2-1 vs Cephalid breakfast in the first match of the Top8.

BTW, Sulfuric vortex saved me from dying many times.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Yeah.... We are also testing and playing with Vortex in the main, the last month. Seems really good, and is better than most people think. [even if it costs 3]

About the creature-debate [Figure VS Kargan]: We don't think that any creature besides Marauders is good enough to be played in Burn.

[Kanadell~]

Yeah.... We are also testing and playing with Vortex in the main, the last month. Seems really good, and is better than most people think. [even if it costs 3]

About the creature-debate [Figure VS Kargan]: We don't think that any creature besides Marauders is good enough to be played in Burn.

Yes man, my metagame is full of Stoneforge + Jitte/Batterskull and Nighthawk vampire, and Sulfuric vortex was simply awesome vs that life gain decks, and also those 2 extra points per turn help a lot. I love this card.

And with Figure vs Kargan I'll stay with the figure cause it's a t1 drop and t2 you can't pump it, attack and bolt the opponent. I think FoD is better than Kargan but I'll test Kargan to see how it does.

[dontbiteitholmes]

As far as creatures in Burn go everyone is sleeping on Mogg Fanatic. Yes he got worse when they changed combat, but still he's never completely dead, he often swings multiple times when dropped turn 1, he kills several relevant creatures, he owns Bridge From Below, he doesn't throw away the game like Guide, and he can block Batterskull/Goyf/big dudes then sac, buying you that one extra turn / one extra draw you need to put the game away.

[paeng4983]

Have anyone tried to use Koth?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Have anyone tried to use Koth?

Way too slow. 4 mana is just not going to happen on turn 4 with this deck most of the time. Even if you do land Koth Goyf blocks 4/4's all day and good luck ever getting that ultimate off.

In all fairness, no I've never tested Koth in Legacy, I can just infer he's too slow.

There are several 3cmc spells I like that are almost always better than Koth anyways. They are Volcanic Fallout, FlameBreak, Sulfuric Vortex, and Ensnaring Bridge. Obviously you can't run all of them but they can all be back breaking vs. various good decks. I think the hardest part of making Burn work is picking the correct 3 drops. Very few people play Burn correctly or lists that are even close to good (see scgTN coverage if you don't know what I mean) The deck is not terrible by any means when built correctly in the right meta. Obviously you are a complete dog to Tendrils and High Tide can be pretty bad times, but if multicolored control decks, midrange decks, and aggro decks are the current flavor you should be just fine.

Burn built correctly is favorable vs. Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, BUg, Junk, Zoo, and any number of random decks. Proper MD/SB considerations can make UW 50-60%, but pretty much every other aggro deck should roll over to you.

[Matthias]

Burn vs Boros

Hi, there seems to be a thread about Boros burn, but it's quite outdated, so I'm asking myself whether this is because the addition of white would make the deck much worse. I thought the addition of white might be great as you can play Steppe Lynx, Helix and Path to Exile. Rough List:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Keldon Marauder

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

4 Plateau
4 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Is that any good? Or is this just a bad hybrid, slower than burn and with worse creatures than zoo?

[Kanadell~]

Burn vs Boros

Hi, there seems to be a thread about Boros burn, but it's quite outdated, so I'm asking myself whether this is because the addition of white would make the deck much worse. I thought the addition of white might be great as you can play Steppe Lynx, Helix and Path to Exile. Rough List:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Keldon Marauder

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

4 Plateau
4 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Is that any good? Or is this just a bad hybrid, slower than burn and with worse creatures than zoo?

It is obviously competitive, i've seen many decks like that one you're posting. And also many of them include Taigas for tarmos, kirds and Wild nacatl.
And for Koth no one has tested it at least in burn (some Dragon Stompy decks actually run it) 'cause by turn 4 you'll have already won or have the opponent to 5-8 life so you can kill him turn 5. If this does not happen you'll probably lose that game so Koth is not needed in a burn deck 'cause it's not a damage source by itself and it can be easily dazed. Sulfuric vortex is muuuch better in that slot since it can save you from any life-gain source (like jittes) and does 2 damage per turn if it goes unanswered.

[Cire]

Did anyone ever try something like this?

20 Lands
20 Bolt spells (including bump in the night)
4 Probe
4 Mana morph
4 Street Wraith
4 Goblin Guide
2 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress

It would seem pretty solid at first glance, but since i'm not a burn player i'm curious why this list would suffer in practice?

[Sims]

Did anyone ever try something like this?

20 Lands
20 Bolt spells (including bump in the night)
4 Probe
4 Mana morph
4 Street Wraith
4 Goblin Guide
2 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress

It would seem pretty solid at first glance, but since i'm not a burn player i'm curious why this list would suffer in practice?

the concept of a "bauble burn" deck has been around for a while. When Mishra's bauble was first released, people figured that running 8 free cantrips would enable you to run just the bread and butter burn spells and you'd be fine, but in practice it failed pretty horribly due to the fact that the cantrips were delayed and it made mulligan desicions much harder.

Do you keep this hand when you're on the draw?

Mountain, Fetch, fireblast, rift bolt, bolt, chain, lava spike.

What if that hand is-

mountain, fetch, fireblast, bolt, 3x cyclers.

Is it still a safe keep? We can't gaurantee those cyclers will find business and not land or more cyclers. With some of those costing life or in the case of manamorphose costing 2 mana to get going, it's difficult to gauge how productive that hand can be.

It didn't really work then with the baubles, I don't see it working now as the cyclers still can't gaurantee you the gas you need when you need it as opposed to just running more burn in those slots.

[ThoSha]

The only build who is justified to run that many cantrips includes Kiln Fiend.
Its a nice sideplan to have double use from your bolts, so you can bolt opposing creatures and still swing for 15. But i guess i dont have to mention how horrible a single removalspell kills this gameplan. Not even mentioning consistency.

[Kanadell~]

The only build who is justified to run that many cantrips includes Kiln Fiend.
Its a nice sideplan to have double use from your bolts, so you can bolt opposing creatures and still swing for 15. But i guess i dont have to mention how horrible a single removalspell kills this gameplan. Not even mentioning consistency.

Even with Kiln Fiend they're not worth to include. Baubleburn is a suboptimal build and Kiln Fiend is not that good. Grim lavamancer and goblin guide are better creatures by far.

[Cire]

I understand the problem of Baubles specifically, but I don't think the immediate cantrips would work the same way. For example the build I posted could be equated to

20 Land
20 Lightning Bolts
12 Cantrips
8 (special cards: lets just say these cards are burn for now)

As such if I see a a cantrip in my opening hand I can treat it a 2/5th land & 3/5th burn...for the purposes of making easy calculations I would simply treat 1 cycle as a land or Burn : treating it unfavorably in context to the rest of my hand in order to make the safest choice. 2 cycles would roughly be 1 land and 1 Burn. 3 cycles would be 1 land 2 burn. Or at least how I'll treat them in my opening hand mulligan choices

so for your examples I would simply see them as

Mountain, Fetch, fireblast, rift bolt, bolt, chain, lava spike. (2 lands, 5 Burn)

mountain, fetch, fireblast, bolt, 3x cyclers. (3 lands, 4 burn)

Would you keep 3 lands and 4 burn... probably IMO so i'll keep that hand...


Regardless I differ to your opinions since this is simply theory and that is no substitute for practice and experience

[Azel Orfat]

I want to return playing this deck (I basically abandoned it because I hated MM xD) so I wanted to ask you about some points because I've been a little disconnected about Legacy during last months. I was very happy with Sullivan's list: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833&iddeck=42252 but I don't know if it would require some adaptation because it was a Pre New Phyrexia list.

I almost didn't test against Stoneblade so I wanted to ask you about the matchup. I guess we need to ensure killing the Mystic and even if we get it, it will be difficult to be consistent/fast enough to win before they can get the Batterskull activated due to their counterwall. I think that Sulfuric Vortex would be a great card here (in fact probably the best answer to this deck). One of my problems is the mana base. I don't want more than 20 lands and I think that we can't play Vortex with consistency with just 20 lands. I really think that it's a very powerful card but I find it difficult to fit in the list, even in side. Also, I guess that it's not great to mix it with Flame Rift and I agree with Sullivan about the problems with Daze/Spell Pierce on 3cost cards (and now with MM out, Daze and Spell Pierce will surely see lot of play).

What cards would you board in against Stoneblade? I think that REB would be fine in this pairing, now even more with Snapcaster. It could help to ensure killing the Mystic. Besides, we don't have too many spells that can target creatures so I think that Searing Blaze could be worth. Also I suppose that some artifact removal would be also needed to have some chance if we can't avoid Batteskull comes into play.

I also have doubts about the number of fetchlands. I like to play with more than 8 but now stifle decks seem to be rising. Anyway, I think that they used to board them out against us, so I suppose that it's not a problem.

About the metagame, I hope that with blue decks on top, the field gets rebalanced decreasing combo decks and appearing again aggro decks like Zoo and Goblins that are good pairings for us. Or maybe it's just my wish xD

[Curby]

@Cire you don't really understand the problems of cantrips. You just can't get around the problems of blind mulligans. If you get a single land and two cantrips, will that cantrip into the perfect 2-3 land hand? Will you be stranded on 1 mana for the first five turns? You have no idea what you're actually keeping or throwing away. You could be safe and just throw out "dangerous" hands, but then you're starting with a lower average hand size, and throwing out the benefit of running cantrips in the first place (get rid of chaff and only run the highest density of top tier spells).

Burn's got enough gas now that it doesn't really need baubles anyway. There's enough usable burn/creatures that you can fill the slots.

[Curby]

@Cire you don't really understand the problems of cantrips. You just can't get around the problems of blind mulligans. If you get a single land and two cantrips, will that cantrip into the perfect 2-3 land hand? Will you be stranded on 1 mana for the first five turns? You have no idea what you're actually keeping or throwing away. You could be safe and just throw out "dangerous" hands, but then you're starting with a lower average hand size, and throwing out the benefit of running cantrips in the first place (get rid of chaff and only run the highest density of top tier spells).

Burn's got enough gas now that it doesn't really need baubles anyway. There's enough usable burn/creatures that you can fill the slots.

[ThoSha]

I want to return playing this deck (I basically abandoned it because I hated MM xD) so I wanted to ask you about some points because I've been a little disconnected about Legacy during last months. I was very happy with Sullivan's list: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833&iddeck=42252 but I don't know if it would require some adaptation because it was a Pre New Phyrexia list.

I almost didn't test against Stoneblade so I wanted to ask you about the matchup. I guess we need to ensure killing the Mystic and even if we get it, it will be difficult to be consistent/fast enough to win before they can get the Batterskull activated due to their counterwall. I think that Sulfuric Vortex would be a great card here (in fact probably the best answer to this deck). One of my problems is the mana base. I don't want more than 20 lands and I think that we can't play Vortex with consistency with just 20 lands. I really think that it's a very powerful card but I find it difficult to fit in the list, even in side. Also, I guess that it's not great to mix it with Flame Rift and I agree with Sullivan about the problems with Daze/Spell Pierce on 3cost cards (and now with MM out, Daze and Spell Pierce will surely see lot of play).

What cards would you board in against Stoneblade? I think that REB would be fine in this pairing, now even more with Snapcaster. It could help to ensure killing the Mystic. Besides, we don't have too many spells that can target creatures so I think that Searing Blaze could be worth. Also I suppose that some artifact removal would be also needed to have some chance if we can't avoid Batteskull comes into play.

I also have doubts about the number of fetchlands. I like to play with more than 8 but now stifle decks seem to be rising. Anyway, I think that they used to board them out against us, so I suppose that it's not a problem.

About the metagame, I hope that with blue decks on top, the field gets rebalanced decreasing combo decks and appearing again aggro decks like Zoo and Goblins that are good pairings for us. Or maybe it's just my wish xD

I share your opinion. Right now burn seems to be viable again, and i also chose the sullivan list. It doesnt really need updates i think, i've been doing fine with the exact list in the new snapcaster meta and im certainly bringing this deck to GP Amsterdam. It just wins games in 5-10 minutes and is that much fun to play.

The only thing i thought of was running maybe 4 blasts less for some pyrostatic pillars, because they are a beating on high tide and storm. Still not sure how this will work out, but in testing 4 blasts were enough for the blue decks.

[Azel Orfat]

@ThoSha: You can also consider Tormod's Crypt in those slots. Reanimator is a DTB right now and maybe with REB+Tormod you could have some chance. It could also help if you face some Past in Flames based deck. I think it could also be worth against Ill-Gotten Gains and of course against Dredge.

Good luck at the GP, I hope you get a good result with Burn ^^

[Azel Orfat]

@ThoSha: You can also consider Tormod's Crypt in those slots. Reanimator is a DTB right now and maybe with REB+Tormod you could have some chance. It could also help if you face some Past in Flames based deck. I think it could also be worth against Ill-Gotten Gains and of course against Dredge.

Good luck at the GP, I hope you get a good result with Burn ^^

[ThoSha]

Nah i dont know about crypt.. Its just too weak on the draw, and theres always the chance you dont get any.

Leyline on the other hand seems like a real good choice, you can just mulligan to 4 to find leyline and do topdeck burn. I will cut some blasts, i guess. ^^

[dontbiteitholmes]

Nah i dont know about crypt.. Its just too weak on the draw, and theres always the chance you dont get any.

Leyline on the other hand seems like a real good choice, you can just mulligan to 4 to find leyline and do topdeck burn. I will cut some blasts, i guess. ^^

If you expect Reanimator, like you should now, Crypt or Leyline are the only reasonable options. When Reanimator isn't a metagame concern I prefer Relic as it's hands down better vs. every other graveyard deck and the card draw is relevant, unfortunately it has nothing for turn 1 entomb turn 2 reanimate Iona on the draw. You really don't need Blasts outside of the Counterbalance matchup and I guess they help vs. High Tide but really a lot of people dilute their decks too much by throwing in too many Blasts post board vs. decks where they should really be going for the face and more or less ignoring counters.

[1maarten1]

Allright, I played Burn at GP Amsterdam. Ill post a quick tournament report on the deck now:
My list:
20 Lands (12 fetch, 8 mountain)
12 Creatures (4 grim, 4 guide, 4 figure)
28 Spells (4 bolt, 4 chain, 4 pop, 4 fireblast, 4 lava spike, 4 rift bolt, 4 sulfuric vortex)

Sideboard:
4 tormod's crypt
4 mindbreak trap
4 searing blaze
3 smash to smithereens

Allright on to the tournament!
Round 1: B/W/R.dec with Bob and SFM etc.
Game 1: Quick goblin guides get him down quick.
Game 2: I get him down to 1, then proceed to draw 6 lands in a row. When he gets batter skull +jitte + elspeth active in a single turn I scoop.
Game 3: I just destroy him with a guide and a lavamancer while killing his SFM's and Confidants.

Round 2: Burn. The mirror... jeez
Actually nothing to say in this MU, he wins the die-roll I lose 2-1

Round 3: Stoneblade
Game 1: I get flooded, 9 lands in play :)
Game 2: I blow him out with 2 goblin guides
Game 3: This is the most epic game of the day, he is on 11. I got 1 card in hand, lightning bolt. He just played SFM the turn before, so next turn is Batterskull. I look down, he has 3 non-basics, and a confident. I pray to draw PoP and for him to play a land, and then not have a Swords to save him :P Small chances. I draw: PRICE OF PROGRESS :D. Allright so Im almost there. I pass the turn (i have 5 mountains and 3 fetches in play and I'm on 6 life) he flips Aven Mindcensor off the top! So he goes to 8. I go end of draw, play PoP, then I respond by fetching my 3 lands he responds by tapping out and playing Mindcensor! Im ok with that, fetches find nothing. Pop resolves and bolt kills him. Epic.

Round 4: Burn, AGAIN (tho he was running a bad list.)
Game 1: He won the die-roll so Im pretty bummed, still manage to win due to a very explosive turn.
Game 2: Im in the advantage with Guide and Lavamancer in play. Then all of a sudden he starts playing Thorn of Amethysts and Pyrostatic pillars lol. He just fucks himself and I win.

Round 5: ANT
Game 1: I apply some early pressure forcing him to go for a non-lethal tendrils. However I can't get him down to 0 quick enough before he finds his business and kills me.
Game 2: I mull to 6 hoping to see a Mindbreak trap. I apply pressure, getting him to 10 when he goes off. Next card on my deck was trap. FML :P

Round 6: UW Stoneblade
Game 1: I get him to 3! When he uses the ultimate of his jace.
Game 2: I go way to quick, and when he tries to resolve Leyline while he is on 4 I fire blast him out.
Game 3: Goblin guides take him down real fast.

Allright at this point Im 4-2. 7-2 makes day 2 so yea there is still hope. Only problem is that I have to leave for a dinner-appointment. So I scoop for my round six opponent, so he can keep the dream of making day 2 alive ;) and go home.

Thoughts on the deck:
-Goblin guides are the nuts. No kidding.
-I was disappointed with Figure and Vortex. Vortex was pretty often useless because it cost 3, and I always was able to handle SFM with a bolt or lavamancer etc. (and with smash from the sideboard) I could see myself playing Flame Rift or maybe even Searing blaze main deck in its place.
I was dissapointed in Figure, Im going to see if Hellspark Elemental will be decent in its place.

So stuff I will try in the main deck:
Take out 4 figure and 4 vortex
Test 4 Hellspark Elemental, and test 4 flame rift/4 searing blaze

The sideboard:
I really hated the fact that I didn't have Pyroblast/REB in there. The storm matchup seems a bit silly, 4 mindbreak trap is not changing enough here. From now I rather run:
4 Searing blaze
4 Tormod's crypt
4 Pyroblast
3 Smash to smithereens

If I will run Searing blaze main, I think I will play Mindbreak traps there, because they CAN catch a storm player off guard, but maybe I would just run some more REB's and some Faerie Macabre's.

Thoughts on this all?

Ps. There were 90!!!!!! Burn players at the GP. Pretty insane numbers, but I did think it was a good choice for the tournament.

[OurSerratedDust]

Good to see you did well with the deck. Have you tried out Pyrostatic Pillar against storm? I haven't tested it out specifically, but as a storm player, I've played against it a couple times and it was pretty brutal.

[paeng4983]

Good to see you did well with the deck. Have you tried out Pyrostatic Pillar against storm? I haven't tested it out specifically, but as a storm player, I've played against it a couple times and it was pretty brutal.

I'll just post my brother's experience last sunday. We participated in a 70 plus players and he had a 5-2 win-loss mark. he won against elf, UW snapcaster, merpok, merpok, affinity. lost to merpok and ANT.

[OurSerratedDust]

Did he play Pyrostatic Pillar? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[paeng4983]

Did he play Pyrostatic Pillar? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

uhmmm.. if you're talking to me, i was referring to the legacy tournament that we had here in the Philippines were 70 plus participated. :)

Yes he did used pillars but sad to say he just shuffled his deck because the ANT deck that he faced went off during his turn twos. :)

[paeng4983]

Did he play Pyrostatic Pillar? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

uhmmm.. if you're talking to me, i was referring to the legacy tournament that we had here in the Philippines were 70 plus participated. :)

Yes he did used pillars but sad to say he just shuffled his deck because the ANT deck that he faced went off during his turn twos. :)

[Gloubi]

This thread has been a very interesting read (91 pages of good info :) )
However, hasn't it deviated from its original purpose? I saw more and more deck-lists with creatures/permanents (e.g: goblin guides in the last posts), whereas I thought Burn was supposed to be avoiding either.

From the first post:


This was said at the beginning of the last Burn thread and will be reiterated in this one because it is important. This thread is for discussing Burn. It is not for the discussion of its cousins, RDW and Sligh. While similar, these two decks are idealogically different from Burn, in that one of Burn's core tenets is to avoid the use of any nonland permanents as a way of making many of the opponent's cards dead, hence providing virtual card advantage. This strategy is not inherent in Sligh or RDW, which tend to have a roughly equal balance of nonland permanents and burn spells. Therefore, in order to keep this discussion on track, do not post RDW or Sligh threads here. If you wish to discuss those archetypes, please start seperate threads for them. - Zilla


The first post seemed to be implying that the only acceptable creatures were "non beater" ones (fanatic/lavamancer), and those that wouldn't be sticking around (marauders).
Goblin guide seems contradictory with that first post, since it's a beater, it's providing card advantage to the opponent, and makes his removals relevant.

I'm not questioning the efficiency of the recent lists, but was just wondering if they really were belonging in here.

Gloubi

[1maarten1]

This thread has been a very interesting read (91 pages of good info :) )
However, hasn't it deviated from its original purpose? I saw more and more deck-lists with creatures/permanents (e.g: goblin guides in the last posts), whereas I thought Burn was supposed to be avoiding either.

From the first post:


The first post seemed to be implying that the only acceptable creatures were "non beater" ones (fanatic/lavamancer), and those that wouldn't be sticking around (marauders).
Goblin guide seems contradictory with that first post, since it's a beater, it's providing card advantage to the opponent, and makes his removals relevant.

I'm not questioning the efficiency of the recent lists, but was just wondering if they really were belonging in here.

Gloubi

Goblin guide is a card that easily gets in for 4-6 damage when you play him turn 1. There really don't exist many cards that are as efficient as Goblin Guide. Also our goal still has not changed. We are NOT aiming to throw our burn spells at their creatures just to get your Goblin guides to connect. So the main goal has not changed, there are just some cards (creatures/permanents) that are so efficient damage/cost wise that its just bad not to play them.

[Gloubi]

I won't disagree with Goblin Guide being effective.
But including it somehow turns a burn deck into RDW.

[Drou Toif]

This thread has been a very interesting read (91 pages of good info :) )
However, hasn't it deviated from its original purpose? I saw more and more deck-lists with creatures/permanents (e.g: goblin guides in the last posts), whereas I thought Burn was supposed to be avoiding either.

Things have changed. At first, builds with the goal of “virtual card advantage” were the most popular. Now, builds with creatures like Grim Lavamancer have taken that place. You could call it Sligh or RDW to note the difference, but I think that any monored list is popularly known/named as Burn in Legacy.

[Gloubi]

Things have changed. At first, builds with the goal of “virtual card advantage” were the most popular. Now, builds with creatures like Grim Lavamancer have taken that place. You could call it Sligh or RDW to note the difference, but I think that any monored list is popularly known/named as Burn in Legacy.

Ah I see, thanks for clarifying :)
(I see you're new on this forum too btw? ;) )

[Curby]

I disagree strongly with Drou's assessment.

Dragon Stompy is mono-red, and is not burn.

Burn can splash black or white, yet is still burn.

What matters is the way the deck plays: in Burn, the creatures have to take care of themselves in most cases, and must have a reasonable chance of doing damage unassisted. Grim Lavamancer fills this role, as does Keldon Marauders. Hellspark Elemental is sometimes used because it can dodge countermagic and can threaten six damage (note that Ball Lightning does not do both).

Consider Tarmogoyf or Steppe Lynx. Both are undercosted beaters, and at first glance would appear to work well. However, they don't get the job done alone, because they get chump-blocked or removed while sitting around for a turn. Even if they live, they rely on removal to get rid of opposing blockers. Once you start sending burn at creatures instead of at the opponent, you're moving towards the philosophy of Goyf Sligh or Zoo, where burn cards serve double duty as path-clearer and finisher. In Burn, the burn spells have to hit the opponent in order for it to stand a chance.

In the above context, Goblin Guide still merits inclusion in Burn, and maintains the spirit of the deck. On turn 1, he can swing unopposed. Any defending creature is unlikely to be able to stand toe to toe with him, and an even trade will often be in Burn's favor. If Burn is on the play, Guide will often get four points in before the opponent is able to muster a credible defense. Even in the mid or late game, the fact that Goblin Guide has haste can take advantage of a tapped out opponent, as players tend to alpha strike every turn against Burn. It's the combination of speed and size that makes Guide playable, whereas Slith Firewalker, Steppe Lynx, and Stromkirk Noble are unplayable.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

If you expect Reanimator, like you should now, Crypt or Leyline are the only reasonable options. When Reanimator isn't a metagame concern I prefer Relic as it's hands down better vs. every other graveyard deck and the card draw is relevant, unfortunately it has nothing for turn 1 entomb turn 2 reanimate Iona on the draw. You really don't need Blasts outside of the Counterbalance matchup and I guess they help vs. High Tide but really a lot of people dilute their decks too much by throwing in too many Blasts post board vs. decks where they should really be going for the face and more or less ignoring counters.

Word that on the Blasts.

Just to quibble though, Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre seem like they're about as good vs. Reanimator as Crypt and Leyline. Maybe even better against that specific matchup, since they impart a surprise factor, whereas Crypt and Leyline allow the Reanimator player to save their resources until they can deal with your sideboard hate (Leyline) or kind of telegraph your play (Crypt). On the other hand, blowing them out with an instant effect from out of your hand should fizzle their reanimation spell, waste whatever their juiciest target was with the RFG stylie, and put them in a much harder position to recover from while you burn dome. I guess it depends on the quantity of discard they're running though... So perhaps a combination of Crypts and Macabre/Extraction would be best, in terms of Reanimator?

[Drou Toif]

I disagree strongly with Drou's assessment.

Dragon Stompy is mono-red, and is not burn.

Burn can splash black or white, yet is still burn.

What matters is the way the deck plays: in Burn, the creatures have to take care of themselves in most cases, and must have a reasonable chance of doing damage unassisted. Grim Lavamancer fills this role, as does Keldon Marauders. Hellspark Elemental is sometimes used because it can dodge countermagic and can threaten six damage (note that Ball Lightning does not do both).

Consider Tarmogoyf or Steppe Lynx. Both are undercosted beaters, and at first glance would appear to work well. However, they don't get the job done alone, because they get chump-blocked or removed while sitting around for a turn. Even if they live, they rely on removal to get rid of opposing blockers. Once you start sending burn at creatures instead of at the opponent, you're moving towards the philosophy of Goyf Sligh or Zoo, where burn cards serve double duty as path-clearer and finisher. In Burn, the burn spells have to hit the opponent in order for it to stand a chance.

It's the combination of speed and size that makes Guide playable, whereas Slith Firewalker, Steppe Lynx, and Stromkirk Noble are unplayable.

I guess I wasn't specific enough but I was reffering to the context of the Burn/Sligh/RDW difference.

Here you have two lists:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=4739&iddeck=14717
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5833&iddeck=42252

First is an old list with the goal of virtual card advantage and the second one is more recent. You could say that the second list is more a Sligh deck, but what I meant before is that inspite of not being exactly the same philosophy, both lists are popularly known as Burn.

Builds with Steppe Lynx did some great results some time ago and they are basically the same than the second list changing the one-drop (Lynx instead of FOD):
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5745&iddeck=41583

[Curby]

I think we may have had a misunderstanding. =)

I was also talking about the difference in philosophy between Burn and Sligh/Zoo/etc. Both use efficient creatures, but to me the key difference is that in Burn, the efficiency comes with inevitability. Either via guaranteed damage a'la Marauders or a combination of speed+size that pushes damage through a'la Guide, Burn's creatures have to work well without external assistance.

In Sligh/Zoo, you often use removal on blockers to push damage through. The efficiency with creatures here is not inevitability, but sheer power/cost ratios. The lack of speed and evasion means you'll need to remove blockers to prevent chump blocks, so burn and other removal is often used on creatures until the very end when they can be used to finish off the opponent.

To me, that's the fundamental difference. In Burn, you burn the opponent while your creatures do their own thing on the ground. In the others, you burn the opponent's creatures to get your creatures through.

With that in mind, I don't believe FoD or Steppe Lynx belong in Burn, as it changed the deck to something of a hybrid between Burn-style and Sligh-style play. It's more of an ideological opposition, since I can't deny the fact that lists with FoD have been successful. =)

P.S. Anything running Lynx or FoD is almost required to run Lavamancer. That's the only way you can remove blockers without "wasting" too many burn cards on creatures. It may be telling that I don't like Lavamancer builds either in this meta, especially with all the Stifle running around. If you're on a Mountain and a fetch and they Stifle the fetch, that can be gg right there.

[Qweerios]

Does Bob fit in burn? He can be a valuable asset against dedicated control decks and can help recover from Hymns. I think he is worth looking into since he is somewhat of a virtual two CMC Vortex. A bit more mana intensive and vulnerable to more removal but much more damaging to your opponent. Burn is also a deck that could benefit from having multiple Bobs on the field. Here is what I have in mind:


Creatures (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (28)
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet
4 Rift Bolt

Lands (20)
4 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa

Sideboard (15)
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Searing Blaze
4 Pyroblast
4 Extirpate

[ThoSha]

Trade Magma Jet for Fireblast and you will be fine with that.

[Drou Toif]

A Burn player made top 8 yesterday at the SCG Legacy open in Las Vegas with the same main that the one that also made top 8 previously in Kansas: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/comparedeck.php?deck1=42137&deck2=42046 Congratulations to both players!

At a first glance I don't like the lists, but I can't say that they weren't effective. I don't like the lack of Grim Lavamancer, it's an awesome creature. I understand that running fetches isn't that great with all those RUG tempo decks around, but also Stoneforge/Equipments are everywhere and Grim Lavamancer/Searing Blaze are a great help there. On a positive note, no Grim “let” you run Barbarian Rings but I'm not a fan of that card. I think that it's not a good idea to run only 2 no basics in the “wasteland format”.

I'm either not a fan of creatures like Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elemental. Anyway I suppose that they are effective against the RUG tempo decks. Also Hellspark seems good against BUG and Dredge. But I'm not sure about mixing those creatures with FOD, because they “fight” on the curve and Keldon coming to grave by itself could handicap FOD against early Tarmos, although I guess they boarded the FOD out in some matches.

About the side, what do you think about Shattering Spree? I think that Smash to Smithereens instant speed and damage is very important although the “uncounterable side” of Shattering Spree is also interesting.

What are your thoughts about the above lists?

[Pulp_Fiction]

I am not going to write a full report because I know most people are going to flame me for the list and tell me what a fluke it was but .. I built this as a joke and it turned out to be really damn good. Last night I made it to a top 4 split at my local card shop and only dropped 1 game to Leyline of Sanctity:

4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Rift Bolt
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Price of Progress
3x Top
2x Flame Rift
2x Fireblast
1x Cursed Scroll (should be more)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
6x Mountains
2x Badlands

SB
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Shattering Spree
2x Innocent Blood
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 - B/W Aggro
g1 - I'm faster and don't attack.
g2 - He mulls to 5 and finds Leyline of Sanctity. I almost win after I filter Top and find 4 Grim Lavamancers to start swinging while easily burning his creatures away. He ends up with 4 PNeedles in play on Lavamancer, Top, Scroll, and a land and draws his singleton Ajani ... I can't win and actually had him down to 1.
g3 - I board in Shusher and Macabre since they can attack and he mulls to 6 for Leyline. I burn all relevant cards and filter with Top to get what I need while beating face with 2x Shushers.

Round 2 - ANT
g1 - He keeps a slower hand and actually had the win but decided to go for IGG when I have a Bolt in the yard with Lavamancer in play at 5 life.
g2 - He mulls to 5 and I get horribly mana-flooded. No matter, Top allows me to draw relevant spells and I force him to mini-Tendrils on turn 4-5. Macabre removes his Tendrils and thats the end of the game.

Round 3 - ID

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - UGr CB Bullshit (Gerry T list)
g1 - Scroll + Bridge take him out of the game. He assembles CB + Top but it doesn't matter. He counters every spell I play after turn 5 but gets burned out and can't attack.
g2 - Turn 2 Shusher, turn 3 Grim, and turn 5 Bridge. Bridge locks him out after he wastes KGrip on Scroll (I really need more of these in here for the record, I always wanted them in every game). I easily keep his Grim Lavamancers off the board and Fireblast kills him.

Now this is by no means a definitive gauntlet but ... everything about this list is wrong. Everything. But yet, it has unbelievable matchups against: Stoneblade BS, Merfolk, CB, aggro, Dredge, and has game against combo and Reanimator. Bridge and Top are clearly weird choices but both won games, and really, think about this, how many decks are prepared for this g1? The worst part of playing burn is running out of gas and entering topdeck mode ... Bridge and Top make this avoidable. In no way am I saying this deck should be embraced by people, but I played it as a joke, tested it on cockatrice and ... Burning Bridge is really good for some weird reason. Its kind of like burn with options. Now before flaming me, at least sleeve it up.

[Vandalize]

I am not going to write a full report because I know most people are going to flame me for the list and tell me what a fluke it was but .. I built this as a joke and it turned out to be really damn good. Last night I made it to a top 4 split at my local card shop and only dropped 1 game to Leyline of Sanctity:

4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Rift Bolt
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Price of Progress
3x Top
2x Flame Rift
2x Fireblast
1x Cursed Scroll (should be more)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
6x Mountains
2x Badlands

SB
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Shattering Spree
2x Innocent Blood
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 - B/W Aggro
g1 - I'm faster and don't attack.
g2 - He mulls to 5 and finds Leyline of Sanctity. I almost win after I filter Top and find 4 Grim Lavamancers to start swinging while easily burning his creatures away. He ends up with 4 PNeedles in play on Lavamancer, Top, Scroll, and a land and draws his singleton Ajani ... I can't win and actually had him down to 1.
g3 - I board in Shusher and Macabre since they can attack and he mulls to 6 for Leyline. I burn all relevant cards and filter with Top to get what I need while beating face with 2x Shushers.

Round 2 - ANT
g1 - He keeps a slower hand and actually had the win but decided to go for IGG when I have a Bolt in the yard with Lavamancer in play at 5 life.
g2 - He mulls to 5 and I get horribly mana-flooded. No matter, Top allows me to draw relevant spells and I force him to mini-Tendrils on turn 4-5. Macabre removes his Tendrils and thats the end of the game.

Round 3 - ID

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - UGr CB Bullshit (Gerry T list)
g1 - Scroll + Bridge take him out of the game. He assembles CB + Top but it doesn't matter. He counters every spell I play after turn 5 but gets burned out and can't attack.
g2 - Turn 2 Shusher, turn 3 Grim, and turn 5 Bridge. Bridge locks him out after he wastes KGrip on Scroll (I really need more of these in here for the record, I always wanted them in every game). I easily keep his Grim Lavamancers off the board and Fireblast kills him.

Now this is by no means a definitive gauntlet but ... everything about this list is wrong. Everything. But yet, it has unbelievable matchups against: Stoneblade BS, Merfolk, CB, aggro, Dredge, and has game against combo and Reanimator. Bridge and Top are clearly weird choices but both won games, and really, think about this, how many decks are prepared for this g1? The worst part of playing burn is running out of gas and entering topdeck mode ... Bridge and Top make this avoidable. In no way am I saying this deck should be embraced by people, but I played it as a joke, tested it on cockatrice and ... Burning Bridge is really good for some weird reason. Its kind of like burn with options. Now before flaming me, at least sleeve it up.

Lol, nice! My friend had a shot with Ensnaring Bridge as well, and it's awesome. Burn is often empty handed, which makes Ensnaring Bridge so strong.

And you're right about Cursed Scroll, that shit just rocks. I'd go -1 Magma Jet +1 Scroll.

[paeng4983]

I am not going to write a full report because I know most people are going to flame me for the list and tell me what a fluke it was but .. I built this as a joke and it turned out to be really damn good. Last night I made it to a top 4 split at my local card shop and only dropped 1 game to Leyline of Sanctity:

4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Rift Bolt
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Price of Progress
3x Top
2x Flame Rift
2x Fireblast
1x Cursed Scroll (should be more)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
6x Mountains
2x Badlands

SB
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Shattering Spree
2x Innocent Blood
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 - B/W Aggro
g1 - I'm faster and don't attack.
g2 - He mulls to 5 and finds Leyline of Sanctity. I almost win after I filter Top and find 4 Grim Lavamancers to start swinging while easily burning his creatures away. He ends up with 4 PNeedles in play on Lavamancer, Top, Scroll, and a land and draws his singleton Ajani ... I can't win and actually had him down to 1.
g3 - I board in Shusher and Macabre since they can attack and he mulls to 6 for Leyline. I burn all relevant cards and filter with Top to get what I need while beating face with 2x Shushers.

Round 2 - ANT
g1 - He keeps a slower hand and actually had the win but decided to go for IGG when I have a Bolt in the yard with Lavamancer in play at 5 life.
g2 - He mulls to 5 and I get horribly mana-flooded. No matter, Top allows me to draw relevant spells and I force him to mini-Tendrils on turn 4-5. Macabre removes his Tendrils and thats the end of the game.

Round 3 - ID

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - UGr CB Bullshit (Gerry T list)
g1 - Scroll + Bridge take him out of the game. He assembles CB + Top but it doesn't matter. He counters every spell I play after turn 5 but gets burned out and can't attack.
g2 - Turn 2 Shusher, turn 3 Grim, and turn 5 Bridge. Bridge locks him out after he wastes KGrip on Scroll (I really need more of these in here for the record, I always wanted them in every game). I easily keep his Grim Lavamancers off the board and Fireblast kills him.

Now this is by no means a definitive gauntlet but ... everything about this list is wrong. Everything. But yet, it has unbelievable matchups against: Stoneblade BS, Merfolk, CB, aggro, Dredge, and has game against combo and Reanimator. Bridge and Top are clearly weird choices but both won games, and really, think about this, how many decks are prepared for this g1? The worst part of playing burn is running out of gas and entering topdeck mode ... Bridge and Top make this avoidable. In no way am I saying this deck should be embraced by people, but I played it as a joke, tested it on cockatrice and ... Burning Bridge is really good for some weird reason. Its kind of like burn with options. Now before flaming me, at least sleeve it up.

I didn't have the same luck as yours. I used burn deck last weekend's legacy tournament here were we had it 5rds, I only won twice (against merfolk and affinity) and lost my other games (merfolk, gw mavs, TA). The deck kept on giving me lands all day long. I'll try this again this coming nov 26, hopefully things burn in my favor. :)

[DragoFireheart]

Lol, nice! My friend had a shot with Ensnaring Bridge as well, and it's awesome. Burn is often empty handed, which makes Ensnaring Bridge so strong.

And you're right about Cursed Scroll, that shit just rocks. I'd go -1 Magma Jet +1 Scroll.

1997 wants it's tech back.

Burning Bridges is nothing new or special. The issue is we have no ways to dig for either the bridge or the scroll.

[Vandalize]

1997 wants it's tech back.

Burning Bridges is nothing new or special. The issue is we have no ways to dig for either the bridge or the scroll.

Burn can't dig for anything... It's often empty handed and in top-deck mode. And that's what makes it so consistent and that's why Ensnaring Bridge is perfectly fine for this deck.

[DragoFireheart]

Burn can't dig for anything... It's often empty handed and in top-deck mode. And that's what makes it so consistent and that's why Ensnaring Bridge is perfectly fine for this deck.

Oh sorry, I wasn't implying that bridges is bad for burn. Bridge is very good for burn. The issue is we have to hope to draw into it. It's also really bad in multiple. I also question how effective it can be when someone can be when someone can Zenith for a pridemage to blow it up.

[boneclub24]

I'm going to get back into using my burn (wherever it is...), as it actually seems very well placed in this meta.

Here is what my updated list will look like:

Land: 19
19 Mountain

Creatures: 8
4 Goblin Guide
4 Keldon Marauders

Spells: 30
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Volcanic Fallout

Enchantments: 3
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Sideboard: 15
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Tormod's Crypt

Back when I first played this, I ran Flamebreak. I'm hearing tell that Volcanic is better these days, though.

[Qweerios]

What do you guys think of blue in burn? With Snapcaster Mage and Delver of Secrets, I can see Burn/Sligh greatly benefit and get better sideboard options against Combo (Flusterstorm). I know that Grim and Snap don't synergize well together but Delver is nothing to scoff at. A 3/2 Flying creature for 1 mana is godly for burn. If you thought Guide and FoD were good, wait until you try Delver. Also, with 12 fetchlands, Brainstorm would be great in there as well. Am I missing any good blue cards that would make burn stronger?

[DragoFireheart]

U/R burn would be a whole new deck. Burn decks are mono colored.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Bridge is certainly not necessary in all metas, but I encounter a great deal of Reanimator and UW Stoneforge, thats why I play it. Clearly against Zoo it is not ideal, but they still have to draw Pridemage.

Cursed Scroll fills a really weird role. I have always ran them, and always will while playing this deck. Grim, PoP, and Scroll are the most commonly countered cards. Scroll almost always has a savage impact on the game and if one is in play you don't have to second guess yourself when burning creatures is necessary. And for the record, I have had turn 1 Scroll on the play Forced about 50-60% of the time. Mainly because they saw it working earlier and realized what a threat it was. I really like the 4x Magma Jet since they give the deck a little bit of dig. I am most likely going to go -1 Lava Spike (most commonly boarded out card) and +1 Scroll.

U/R is an entirely different deck. There is probably a thread for it somewhere. One of my buddies was talking about playing it but I doubt it will be any better than just playing burn. You now have more creatures to topdeck that don't do immediate damage. Brainstorm is appealing but I don't really see it being better.

[BlueNevus]

Am I missing any good blue cards that would make burn stronger?

I'm going to run U/R with FOW/Daze/Snare for a while. Delver's evasion makes it so much better than Guide(Also a 4 of) and Marauders. Adding counterspells lets you force through a big Price of Progress and gives you a huge edge against all the broken decks of the format (Reanimator, Tendrils, S+T, etc.) It's also much more fun to play. Sadly, you lose speed and will lose to plenty of aggro decks if you can't control them with Snapcasted removal/race them.

A hand of FOW, Snapcaster, and Price of Progress can win games that R Burn could never win after your opponent starts to stabilize with Batterskull/Jitte/whatever.

Obviously this is a much different deck and I won't pollute this thread anymore after this post. Hopefully there will be a thread for U/R soon enough.

[suddo]

I'm going to run U/R with FOW/Daze/Snare for a while. Delver's evasion makes it so much better than Guide(Also a 4 of) and Marauders. Adding counterspells lets you force through a big Price of Progress and gives you a huge edge against all the broken decks of the format (Reanimator, Tendrils, S+T, etc.) It's also much more fun to play. Sadly, you lose speed and will lose to plenty of aggro decks if you can't control them with Snapcasted removal/race them.

A hand of FOW, Snapcaster, and Price of Progress can win games that R Burn could never win after your opponent starts to stabilize with Batterskull/Jitte/whatever.

Obviously this is a much different deck and I won't pollute this thread anymore after this post. Hopefully there will be a thread for U/R soon enough.

Unfortunately this becomes almost a completely different deck altogether. Although there are ways of adding control elements to Mono-Red Burn, Blood Moon & Ensnaring Bridge, splashing a color for it's control elements makes it no longer burn. More of an aggro zoo type deck and if you want to play that play that RUG tempo deck.
The majority of cards in Burn need to be directly I deal X damage to the opponent. I say majority because some need to get you to more answers, top and card draw, and others can keep you alive if you burn out, Ensnaring Bridge, or slow your opponent way down, Blood Moon. Delver & Snapcaster are fine but everything else is wrong, though it maybe good in a different style.

Wow that rant was a little long.

So my main question is. What do people think about control in burn. Whether it be ensnaring bridge or blood moon. What are your thoughts on them. Also just to double check Rite of Flame is jank, bad, right; Even if you run things like blood moon.

[Curby]

Re: Rite of Flame:

Yes, but ask yourself why.

First a note about acceleration and consistency. Acceleration is a mini-combo with other spells, combos introduce dependencies, and dependencies reduce consistency. The obvious case is drawing acceleration when it's not necessary. The less obvious case is that you'll think you have more mana to work with, gradually let mana costs creep up, and be stuck with spells you can't cast because you didn't have the accelerants.

Mana acceleration sacrifices cards for casting spells more quickly, but successful Burn lists are not preoccupied with being the fastest. Emptying your hand is not winning; you're just spending extra time in topdeck mode. If those accelerants were burn spells instead, it might seem that the deck is slower, but the actual kill speeds would be as fast or faster because the deck is more consistent, and the average damage per card is higher.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The only form of acceleration you should play is Chrome Mox and that is still bad. What do you need to accelerate into? Your hand will be empty soon enough.

I made another top 8 yesterday at a 20ish people tournament.

4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Rift Bolt
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Chain Lightning
3x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Price of Progress
3x Top
2x Flame Rift
2x Fireblast
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Arid Mesa
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Scalding Tarn
7x Mountains
2x Badlands

SB
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Shattering Spree
2x Innocent Blood
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 - Mono-Black Pox/Rack/Nixiathid Bloodghast ... stuff (2-0)
I lost both games with him at like 3 or 2 ... had marginal draws he had god draws. He gave me the win though since he was going to the bar early.

Round 2 - U/R Snapcaster Burn (thor) (2-1)
g1 - He outraces me with Snapcaster + recurring Lightning Bolts
g2 - I resolve a Bridge and he is forced to waste his burn on my dudes ... I burn his face but he is 1 mountain shy of double Fireblast.
g3 - Same as before except Cursed Scroll makes an appearance, Bridge locks down Delver and Guides and Top filters my draws into all the burn.

Round 3 - GWb Maverick (2-1)
g1 - I resolve double Bridge and he has a Pridemage in play, Goyf, and Knight of the Reliquary. He is digging for the second Pridemage to kill me but can't find it and is making his Knight HUGE. I get him down to 3 and he StPs his Knight in response to Fireblast and gains like 15. He makes a play error and taps out, I burn Pridemage away and thats it. Lavamancer literally did like 20+ damage this game.
g2 - I board in to many black cars and they get stuck in my hand as he double Wastes my Badlands. Doesn't matter though as he had the Pridemage +2 Goyfs.
g3 - I get rocked down to 5 after he plays the Pridemage I knew he was slowrolling and he drops Mangara. I have 5 lands in play (1 fetch) and EOT look with Top and see another Bridge and lands. I draw the Bridge, play it, fetch with my land and look with Top, find Bolt, kill Mangara and Bridge lock him. Scroll + lands + Top kills him in short order.

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - Top 8 prize split and I go to the bars.

Bridge has been the nuts as has Top and Scroll. Lavamancer is the best card in the deck easily but when accompanied by these other cards it is even better. A lot of the people around the card shop are becoming believers in Ensnaring Bridge, as Legacy is now, its really damn good. That card just wins games since a large portion of the meta is not prepared for it. It doesn't matter if you run out of gas and are no longer in danger of losing unless you draw a burn spell. Bridge is really good in this deck, and Top also helps a LOT. Given, it is a fundamental turn slower than just standard burn but ... I find it to be a lot more reliable.

[GGoober]

You know pulp, you're a genius for putting Top in Burn. It slows the deck down by a turn (if you draw it, otherwise you are at the same speed as before), but it ensures that you never get the shitty "he's at 2-life and beat me after 6 turn").

I'm going to one day pick up my balls and sleeve Top-burn. And yes, Ensnaring Bridge is amazing (not just in burn but any deck that wants to shut off aggro unexpectedly e.g. in control).

@U/r burn: Top fixes the late-game burn has much easier than what Brainstorm would do (1-time use). The sacrifice for more cantrip is the instability with the manabase (stifle/wastelands). Losing landdrops in burn is significantly painful even if the deck could function with just 1 land theoretically. You lose speed with every land drop you miss. Delver is the best thing for U/r though. I'm really not sold on Snapcasters in U/r burn, you do get some late-game reusability, but a Top could be filtering every other future turn if it lands in play, essentially creating the same effect as drawing burn spells.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@metalworker: TY sir, I originally thought Top would be a joke ... turns out it is that damn good.

Tonight I made yet another top 8 out of 26ish people with the same list. I will write a report even though it doesn't matter. I know it won't be read and people don't care but ... this list works ... thats all u need to know.

4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Rift Bolt
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Chain Lightning
3x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Price of Progress
3x Top
2x Flame Rift
2x Fireblast
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Arid Mesa
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Scalding Tarn
7x Mountains
2x Badlands

SB
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Shattering Spree
2x Innocent Blood
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 - TES (2-1)
g1 - He wins turn 2 AdN on the play.
g2 - He fucks up with LED and I burn him out in 3 turns. For those keeping track, this is 2 weeks in a row I beat combo players punting the game. Being a DD player I envy this ... must be nice to lose to ur own play mistakes .... I wish I could draw LEDs like this. Then again ... it must suck to be unable to understand the win when u have it.
g3 - He bricks on BS and makes 10 EtW tokens on turn 3. Price of Progress deals 6 damage and Top filters me into enough damage to win (another PoP for 6). Before I activated Top I told him I had 6 outs ... upkeep I looked at: Grim, Grim, Badlands ..... are u serious bro???? Are u serious? I showed him the top 3, we are buddies an laughed, I had a fetch in hand and found PoP after fetching ... not sure who is luckier at this point, all I know is I hate luck and this deck almost defies it.

Round 2 - High Tide without Candelabra
g1 - He has 5 turns to draw what he needs ... and doesn't. My deck is better at drawing relevant spells.
g2 - He has infinite mana on turn 3 but fails to win, unfortunately Time Spiral gave me a fresh 7 cards and I kill him a turn before he is able to combo off again. It was really a race, he just got unlucky ...

It should be noted that I never drew Thoughtseize in any of the combo games until after Time Spiral #2. My deck just functioned better than theirs. And the weird thing is .... it is so much easier .... but still has the same focus.

Round 3 - Elves (2-1)
g1 - I mull to 6 and keep a hand of 3 lands a Bridge. I easily Bridge lock him and he has 5 outs .... unfortunately 3 turns later he is dead.
g2 - I mull to 6 again and keep a shitty hand ... he out aggros me with 16 lords.
g3 - I mull to 6 again and keep a hand with Lavamancer (who I was looking for the whole god damn match) and 1 land + 1 mana burn spells. This is no joke, I burn his mana Elfs and don't draw my second land till turn 7. ARE U SERIOUS BRO????? The land ratio is like 2.8/1 .... I went through 6 cards till I found a land .... I won this game because I burned him out but afterwards he bitched about his mana sources. He had Forest and Cradle .... I burned everything else out and didnt draw a second land till turn fucking 7. My deck is better .. deal with it.

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - Top 8 Prize Split

U know, the funny thing is this, after all this time I slowly realized how good burn is. When u play Ensnaring Bridge it is a bomb that most decks are not ready for g1. But, even if they SB in hate for ur artifacts ... ur still a burn deck that kills on turn 5. In the past I have been playing combo because it is simply better ... but, today, in the U/W Stoneforge days .... this list is so solid I would not change it. The best part of playing the list I posted is that it has no purpose other than win. Ur opponents want to have answers to Bridge .... ur goal is to deal 20 damage ... sometimes Bridge is relevant sometimes its not. But in the end, burn is still burn, and time and time again it will win. Bridge and Top don't change it ... they just give it more options. And when ur opponents Sb for these options u get the advantage. Bridge will not make or break burn ... but it gives it a shit ton of options that most of ur opponents are not ready for.

[Antonius]

Have you considered Magus of the Scroll? Yeah, it turns on opposing removal, but lavamancer turns on opposing removal too so that might be a bit of a negligible drawback. Being able to poke for 1 seems like it would be relevant, especially early on. What about sulfuric vortex? Vortex + Bridge should win every time unless they remove it or combo off.

Also: your list seems like it would be ideal for Reckless Looting. Between extra lands, extra bridges and extra tops, there's a lot of stuff you could bear with binning. And the fact that reckless looting is -1 hand size overall gives it great synergy with bridge.

Also, will you play anarchy to deal with Leyline?

[JLK]

Hey long time lurker... and all that :smile:

@ Pulp -> What is your meta like?

I really enjoy burn, but I play in a counter heavy meta, with loads of U/Wx Stoneblade creations, and I really feel I need my vortexes.

I enjoy your (way too short) reports, and would like some insight to your meta.

Will post my deck and thoughts soon, when work and exams are slow and nice again :wink:

/Jacob

[NecroYawgmoth]

Our Team also likes SDT in burn, and plays it as 1-0ff for a long time, now. Only 1 because you NEVER want to see 2, and because the deck can still win without seeing it...

[Pulp_Fiction]

@antonius: I play magus in Modern burn but in Legacy Scroll is so much better since it owns the tempo decks and doesn't die to Lightning Bolt. Vortex is good and running it is never a bad call, I just don't want a bunch of 3 drops in the deck clogging up my hand.

Reckless Looting is interesting, I don't think it will be good or useful in anything but PiF combo and Dredge but ... its always an option.

I won a game through white Leyline ... u just board in dudes and burn their creatures. Its really not that bad with Top since it filters me into exactly what I need.

@JLK: My meta is anything and everything. In the last 3 tournaments I brought this to I didn't play against the same deck twice. Mainly consists of U/W Stoneforge BS and U/x/x Snapcaster shit but I have been dodging them lately ... lucky for them :) Just name the deck and it has been played there, seriously, a few weeks ago someone was playing The Abyss control. U have to be ready for tier 1-5 decks at all times.

Play Vortex if u feel u need it. U can also run PNeedle for Batterskull if its that bad. Make sure to play Shusher though, he is the nuts in that matchup.

[JLK]

Hi,

I top 4ed in a 23 man tourney yesterday, and I feel I have game against most deck, but again I lost in the semi to WUR stoneforge deck....

My meta has little combo (still lost to high tide) and hardly any tribal.

My deck list is pretty much made, to have a shot against the bloody batterskull and to some degree Jitte..... I went 4-1 and lost in the semi, here's my decklist:


4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Searing Blaze
2 Smash to Smithereens
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
1 Badland
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Searing Blaze
SB: 2 Engineered explosives

Game 2 I sided in: shushers, bride, smash, EE and searing blaze - taking out: Goblins, lava spike, tops and 1 random card, and he still 2-0ed me :(

Any ideas on how to battle batterskull?

/Jacob - I have no idea how to link to cards, sorry 'bout that :)

EDIT: The deck thats beaten my twice now in the semi's:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Stifle (mmm stifle)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ponder
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer

Any advice?

[boneclub24]

Either kill the SFM before they put it down or kill them before they can swing with it.

[troopatroop]

That looks like a great deck. Tempo Thresh manabase, Threat Dense, and SFM to trump. It's probably a great matchup for him. 6 Removals, Free counters, Spell Snare, and Threats you need to spend combo pieces on to kill. It looks like a 60% matchup in his favor to be honest, even with the MD Stifle. Also, him playing 14 lands is terrific against your Prices. Rough shit! Kill SFM on sight, but it's only inevitable at that point, imo.

[Pulp_Fiction]

That list doesn't seem like that bad of a matchup. Thoughtseize + Bridge + Shusher would really hurt them. Not to mention Batterskull is the only legitimate threat in the whole deck, everything else is easily handled. Just play around Daze, Stifles are largely worthless with 21 lands and the basics nullify Wastelands. Kill SFM and use Top to filter draws, they have a LOT of dead draws than you do. And if they don't have SS or FoW for PoP then they just lose. He also doesn't have and man-land targets for the Jitte, so that is a big plus.

The matchup, this is just a guess, based on my experience with Burn when MM was legal, it is roughly 55% in Burn's favor and it gets better the less creatures you run (IE Guide being totally dead a good percentage of the time it isnt turn 1-2. If you really are having a hard time play Leyline of Punishment. That should handle things nicely.

[paeng4983]

Hmmmmm…
I’l l just post this one here.
I played in a legacy tournament here wherein 20 plus people participated. And here are some of the details that I can recall:

The list that I run:
4 lightning bolt
4 chain of lightning
4 lava spike
1 rift bolt
4 price of progress
4 fireblast
2 sulfuric vortex
4 grim lavamancer
4 stepp lynx
4 goblin guide
4 keldoran marauders
13 R_fetches
2 plateau
6 mountains
SB
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 seering blaze
3 vexing susher
1 sulfuric vortex
3 shattering spree

RD1 natural rebirth combo
G1: He didn’t drew enough lands to do his stuff. I took advantage of such by firing as fast as I could.
G2: Still on el nino, no lands for him. I won.
1-0
RD2 bwg junk
G1: guide and stepp lynx did most of the damage before his tarmo and KOTR and maze of ith came to his aid. A few burn spells finished him off.
G2: It was like watching Reggie Miller during his prime years. My deck was pouring 3 point bombs before POP and fireblast finished him off again.
2-0
RD3 RUG
G1: Stifle, daze and that flipping 3/2 insect gave him the win.
G2: no lands came to his aid. I took advantage. Stepp lynx and keldoran with a few burn spells gave me the win.
G3: We're both down to 4. i have two POP on my hand and 4 mountains, while he had 4 cards at hand and 4 tapped duals and an untapped 4/5 tarmo on his table. I casted my 1st pop during end step. He FOWed it. Then my 2nd POP, FOWed again. Making his life down to two. Then on my turn, I drew chain. Sweet win vs. RUG
3-0
RD4 dredge
G1: He was not able to dredge any key card into his yard. Stepp lynx and guide did most of the damage before finishing him off with bolts and friends.
G2: He found himself in a similar situation where no key dredge pieces were in his yard after dredging for like 3 or 4 turns.
4-0
RD5 affinity
G1: Good thing that guide and stepp was able to dealt 8 damage to his life. POP and fireblast gave me the win.
G2: shattering spree shattered his dream of having a game 3. :-) I win
5-0

[Ernie11235]

I just won a local Legacy tournament with the following list:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
11 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa

4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Faced Zoo, RUG Tempo, Elves and Burn. Went 4-0. MVP cards were Searing Blaze, Keldon Marauders and Goblin Guide. The rest of the deck was just good, these three cards were unbelievable all day.

[Borealis]

The U/R Counterburn list that just won SCG Charlotte seems pretty fun, though I wonder how good it will be now that people know about it. Still, I'll probably run it at my local tournament scene for a week or two, simply because I love Fireblast and Price of Progress so much. Thoughts on the deck anyone?

[Pulp_Fiction]

I personally think that Counterburn deck is alright. Not a big fan, people have tried to play it in my meta for a while now and its just not good enough. Mad props to the guy for making it so far.

Good to see people putting up more results with Burn. As legacy is now it is certainly one of the better decks and has game against every tier 1 deck there is.

Yet again tonight I made another top 8 out of 30ish people playing this:

4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Rift Bolt
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Chain Lightning
3x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Price of Progress
3x Top
2x Flame Rift
2x Fireblast
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Arid Mesa
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Scalding Tarn
6x Mountains
2x Badlands
1x Taiga

SB
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Krosan Grip
2x Shattering Spree
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Tormod's Crypt

Round 1: Lands (2-0)
Super easy matchup, they have no clock and Glacial Chasm doesn't stop instants in their upkeep after it dies.

Round 2 - U/W Snapcaster Tempo (2-0)
Bridge owns this matchup, hard. And Thoughtseize is VERY unexpected.

Round 3 - ANT (1-2)
Stole a game after Thoughtseize caught him totally off guard, then I just died on turns 2 and 3.

Round 4 - U/B Tezzeret Stax (2-0)
Scroll just owned him and Shusher beats face, not a lot he can do, I'm just to fast and have to many answers.

Round 5 - ID

Round 6 - G/W Stoneblade (1-1) Then ID.
I ravaged him game 1 then he caught me offguard with COP: Red in game 2 ... I Topped for like 15 turns trying to find Scroll ... nothing. The whole top 8 are done, its 1:00 A.M. and people are ready to go, so we decide to just split and not make people wait. I should have boarded in the KGrips and I had my Flame Rifts pulled out and everything ... decided not to at the last second and it cost me but .... COP: Red ... wtf? Oh well, should have killed him next game but why risk it? Its late and I had faith I had it but why leave luck to chance when ur already a winner?

Overall this deck is rock solid and I really liked the KGrips. I felt very prepared for CB and even more confident in the U/W Stoneblade matchup, and it gives me more outs to Leyline of Sanctity. Not that the while Leyline is a serious problem, but it is worrysome to an extent. Not sure if 1x Taiga is enough, but between 12 fetchlands I was never without access to either black or green.

[joey223]

hello all.

well after a 6 month break from playing and reading magic i wanted to play something not too complicated at my local tourney.

this looked like it would fit the bill so....

i just played this pulp fiction deck at a tourney 2 weeks ago.

i won against a black blue delver deck.he said a resolved scroll kills every critter in his deck.i dont know exactly what he was playing.may have been his own build????

then i play a green black blue snapper deck with goyf, jace & company.i win gm 1 after burning jace and we go to time in game 2 because of bridge.

so at this point feeling pretty good at 2-0

on to game 3.

then i play enchantress. UGH! i lose 2 straight.solitary confinement game 1 then leyline of sanctity gm 2. never saw a k. grip !! stopped me cold in my tracks.

game 4.

time spiral with candelabra.

he goes off really early game 1 and game 2 i dont see any of my sideboard cards and he combos off and i finish with a 2-2 record.

this sideboard will not work for my meta but if its working for you keep using it.
if i play this deck again i will surely customize the board better suit my environment.

but playing this deck was a blast! i think with an improved board i think i would have finished better.

after playing it i feel it has a LOT of potential.

i will continue to playtest this deck and see what becomes of it.

if anyone else has played this or similar please post your result and findings.

thanks and merry christmas!

[Pulp_Fiction]

Good to see someone finally tried Burning Bridge! That was just bad luck in matchups there. Combo and Enchantress are pretty much the worst decks you can possibly play against. And the SB is all meta-dependent, I mainly play against tempo BS, Stoneblade, Reanimator, and Merfolk. Its basically just a sea of Batterskulls and Snapcasters, which is why that list really thrives. Enchantress is a nightmare, you can certainly win if you run Anarchy in the board, and combo will always be in their favor.

High Tide is probably the worst since their life total is irrelevant, AdN based combo is a little better since you can just keep throwing bolts at their face but, even then, they can still just win on turn 1-2. The only card I would advise playing for combo is Null Rod backed by the Thoughtseizes. Thoughtseize is SOOOO important out of the board, never get rid of that, but if you never encounter Batterskulls and random CB, green is largely unnecessary. Between Top, Flame Rift, creatures, and PoP the white Leyline is not really a BIG problem, but in Enchantress its huge, since they can usually set up Confinement lock by turn 4. But tweak the SB to what works, you just got some bad matchups.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Pulp_Fiction, I'm impressed with the list you put together and will be bringing Burning Bridge with me for my local Legacy event Saturday with the following change:

- Mountain
+ Taiga

Haven't figured out my board yet but I know:
4 Thoughtseize (which I am hopefully borrowing from a friend tomorrow)
3-4 Krosan Grip
3-4 Blood Moon
3-5 Other Cards

[Ace/Homebrew]

Ended up taking the following list and went 2-3-0. Twenty-five players.

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lava Spike
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Fireblast
3 Rift Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Flame Rift
3 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress

6 Mountain
2 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blood Moon
3 Vexing Shusher

I didn't go double splash and I probably wouldn't next time. Made a few mistakes that cost games. Definitely wouldn't main deck Searing Blaze next time.

Round 1 was Zenith Bant piloted by Tammit67
Game 1 I got him to 1 life before he GSZ'd for Qasali Pridemate, destroyed my Bridge, then used Jace the Mindsculptor to bounce my Lavamancer clearing the way for a huge Knight of the Reliquary.
Game 2 was mine.
Game 3 I got screwed up by a Vendilion Clique (fucking hate that card). I started throwing damage at dudes instead of at face, cost me the game.

Round 2 was against Stoneblade
Bridge completely surprised him game 1.
Game 2 I drew 13 lands (started with 2 in hand) while he dug for eternity until he landed an O-Ring.
Game 3 he countered 2 Bridges and a Blood Moon before I finally landed a Bridge. I failed to board in Vexing Shusher...

Round 3 Stoneblade sequel
This time I boarded in Shusher instead of Blood Moon and he owned the 2nd game.

Round 4 Maverick with Punishing Fire
Game 1 he landed a Mom and eventually GSZ for Gaddock Teeg, stealing the win.
Game 2 I win. Blood Moon means all he could do was richochet a Chain Lightning back at me.
Game 3 he swings with a Bridge out and 3 cards in my hand (one was a Fireblast). I go to play Fireblast and he complains about already declaring attackers. I ask him to announce attacks for the rest of the game but the damage was done. He wisely searched for Umezawa's Jitte and equipped it to his Stoneforge Mystic while I had a Magma Jet in my hand I couldn't cast with only 1 land after the Fireblast.

Round 5 against Charbelcher
Game 1 I get to go first and get him to 1 life before he combos off...
Game 2 I got nothing... I went into this tournament knowing I'd be conceding the combo matches.

If I was doing it again I'd go -3 Searing Blaze, +1 Price of Progress, +1 Sensei's Divining Top, +1 Flame Rift
I'd keep the Blood Moon, Vexing Shusher, and Surgical Extractions in the board. I went into the tournament thinking Ensnaring Bridge would be great against the field and I was right. Like 60% was Bant and/or something with Stoneforge Mystic. I think the Charbelcher deck was the only combo and there were 2 other Burn decks that were probably closer to RDW. One top 8'd. I'd bring this again because Ensnaring Bridge and Blood Moon just completely shut down a large part of the field.

[millerd33]

@Ace/Homebrew... I think we were at the same tourny today... AU in Bluebell? If you are who I think you are we talked for a bit between rounds a few times.

Before the next one at AU let me know if ya want to get together and do some play testing.

Quote of the day "even if I can't top 8 i'm going to stay and play. I'm not good enough go 0-2 drop"

[Tammit67]

@Ace/Homebrew... I think we were at the same tourny today... AU in Bluebell? If you are who I think you are we talked for a bit between rounds a few times.


Yeah, that tournament. Bridge seems a little awkward with all the people in the room preparing against artifacts, although only the GSZ people have the room main for pridemage. Stealing game ones is nice, but if you have shown that it might (?) be better to board it out so they board for something useless

Price just seemed to be the nut high looking back on yesterday. With a little more experience with the deck, there is no reason why you can't place with it next month.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Ace: Not ideal matchups there, but .. black would really have helped. Were you not able to get Thoughtseize in time?

Searing Blaze is just bad. In Modern its pretty decent but in Legacy ... there are just better cards to run.

At this point I have cut green entirely and stuck a Tower of the Magistrate in the Taiga spot. If green works, play it but ... Thoughtseize is just sooo good games 2 and 3 I couldn't imagine not running it.

Blood Moon is interesting and a few times I really wanted to run it but, when you board in cards that need a dual to cast, if u don't have Top in play these cards will just stall in your hand since you are unable to cast them. Moon can certainly be back-breaking to certain decks, but be careful what u board in.

@Tammit: I think a lot of people underestimate the role of Bridge in the deck. You WANT them putting in hate. This is still a Burn deck that kills consistently by turns 4-6. Bridge just gives the deck a serious bomb that your opponents start trying to figure out how to deal with. And even when they deal with it ur drawing burn spells, especially w Top in play. It also turns off Jitte/Batterskull lifegain for a few turns to enable the deck to win, even when in top deck mode which is a time you would almost certainly lose. Now, the same argument can be made for Sulfuric Vortex but .. Bridge serves a dual role and is not a dead topdeck late game nor does it suck in multiples.

[jares]

Yeah, that tournament. Bridge seems a little awkward with all the people in the room preparing against artifacts, although only the GSZ people have the room main for pridemage. Stealing game ones is nice, but if you have shown that it might (?) be better to board it out so they board for something useless

Price just seemed to be the nut high looking back on yesterday. With a little more experience with the deck, there is no reason why you can't place with it next month.
I always disliked Ensnaring Bridge in Burn for of the following reasons:

The casting cost is higher than what I would prefer.
The card does not "burn" the opponent.
You usually don't want to draw one early in the game, or even in multiples.
It's a permanent, which allows your opponent to interact with a card that you've played (it used to be that one of the principles of Burn is to avoid allowing your opponent to interact with what you're doing).
It helps against creatures (which we're normally able to address through various means), but generally does not help against combo (which is usually the glaring weakness of Burn).

I'm glad that some of you have had relative success with the card, though. It might be that the benefit of buying a few more turns to draw burn spells is effective enough in allowing you to finish-off the opponent.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Searing Blaze is just bad. In Modern its pretty decent but in Legacy ... there are just better cards to run.

It also turns off Jitte/Batterskull lifegain for a few turns to enable the deck to win, even when in top deck mode which is a time you would almost certainly lose.
I'd like to hear why you think Searing Blaze is bad in Legacy. With a list consisting of Lightning Bolts, Chain Lightnings, Rift Bolts, Lava Spikes, Fireblasts, Price of Progress, Flame Rift, Goblin Guides, and Grim Lavamancers, I'd also like to see a list of cards that you think would be better in the slot that Searing Blaze could take up.

I like Ensnaring Bridge as an answer to Jitte/Batterskull too, though I'm not sure if the card warrants being included in the MD.

Kind Regards,
jares

[David Kaplan]

I have taken stock Burn and splashed Blue for Delver/Brainstorm. It's tough to get feedback on the this thread, as many are opposed to a splash and on the U/R Delver thread, as many are opposed to too much burn. I appreciate any feedback you may have on my version.

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress

//Splash
4 Brainstorm
1 Daze (Up in the air over this 60th slot... Snapcaster, Flame Rift, Wasteland even Phantasmal Bear)

//Mana (19)
12 Sac Lands
3 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
5 Pyroblast/REB
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
Faerie Macabre
Mountain
Wasteland


I'm looking for a solid strategy against Ugr Thres. I like Submerge w/ REB backup in response to a fetch. Stifle/Wasteland is tough, thinking about an extra Mountain or even Wasteland retaliation.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

[Tammit67]

@Tammit: I think a lot of people underestimate the role of Bridge in the deck. You WANT them putting in hate. This is still a Burn deck that kills consistently by turns 4-6. Bridge just gives the deck a serious bomb that your opponents start trying to figure out how to deal with. And even when they deal with it ur drawing burn spells, especially w Top in play. It also turns off Jitte/Batterskull lifegain for a few turns to enable the deck to win, even when in top deck mode which is a time you would almost certainly lose. Now, the same argument can be made for Sulfuric Vortex but .. Bridge serves a dual role and is not a dead topdeck late game nor does it suck in multiples.

Bridge is absolutely insane against stone blade matchups, there is no doubt about that. But against maverick where they have a bunch of little guys and exalted to sneak under bridge early, jitte counters to reduce the power so exalted hits, and tutorable pridemages to knock it out when KotR comes down, seems awkward.

If instead of a 3 drop that doesn't deal damage, you had instead some more burn, you'd have to worry about the end game even less (considering burn really doesn't want an part of the end game anyway), and the redundancy of multiple bridges not helping, I don't see why there isn't some card available to do what it does, better.

[jares]

I have taken stock Burn and splashed Blue for Delver/Brainstorm. It's tough to get feedback on the this thread, as many are opposed to a splash and on the U/R Delver thread, as many are opposed to too much burn. I appreciate any feedback you may have on my version.

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress

//Splash
4 Brainstorm
1 Daze (Up in the air over this 60th slot... Snapcaster, Flame Rift, Wasteland even Phantasmal Bear)

//Mana (19)
12 Sac Lands
3 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
5 Pyroblast/REB
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
Faerie Macabre
Mountain
Wasteland


I'm looking for a solid strategy against Ugr Thres. I like Submerge w/ REB backup in response to a fetch. Stifle/Wasteland is tough, thinking about an extra Mountain or even Wasteland retaliation.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
I think that what you're referring to as "sac lands" should be referred to as "Fetch Lands".

It seems to me that you essentially replaced the "Tier 2" burn spells (e.g. Flame Rift, Magma Jet, or even Keldon Marauders) with Delver of Secrets and Brainstorm, which might actually be a good idea. With the small number of cards that you're splashing for, the following points are probably the ones that you'd need to consider:

Do the benefits of splashing for these cards outweigh the trade-off of weakening your manabase?
Whenever you have these cards in your hand, try to determine if you would be better-off with one of the Tier 2 burn spells you've replaced.
The cards that you're trying to splash for are definitely good cards, but you have to consider if these cards really add to what you're trying to achieve as a burn deck.

Personally, I think that you're going to win a lot of games with this configuration, but I find it likely that these games would still be probably won had you used burn spells instead (and avoiding the drawbacks of splashing for a color).

The SB is a different story though. If you can justify splashing blue to get access to SB cards that would otherwise be inaccessible, then the splash might be worth considering. For example, more Spell Pierce might be useful.

For the last singleton card, an alternative could be Shard Volley. Think of it as the 5th Fireblast. I personally do have that card as a singleton in my configuration.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Ace/Homebrew]

Ensnaring Bridge is awesome against Stoneforge Mystic-based decks. My 2 wins last Saturday were against Stoneblade. The decks with Green Sun's Zenith are the ones that give Burning Bridge a problem.
I feel that my poor showing was due to play mistakes/inexperience with the deck and some sub-optimal sideboard cards.

@Pulp_Fiction, I had access to the Thoughtseizes but did not use them. I did not want to double splash and still wouldn't in the future. Although next time around I would probably splash black for Thoughtseize instead of green for Krosan Grip.
Tower of the Magistrate seems like a great card right now.
Blood Moon never came in if I needed Taiga to make G. I love that card too because it shuts down so many strategies.

@jares, Searing Blaze is misleadingly bad. Fiction is right here. On the draw it is too slow to hit Mom and then it's dead for the rest of the game. On the play it is nice as long as you have a fetchland. There were a couple of times where I went to play it and then realized that I'd only be doing 1 damage... It LOOKS so good because you hurt there board without deviating from your primary strategy but it's not a great card in this format.
Your arguments against Ensnaring Bridge are valid. Although that card IS the reason I sleeved this deck up in the first place. I liked that it was main deck and mulligan'd for it frequently. I don't know if I will always keep it main deck. The biggest downside is the CMC.

@Tammit, I dunno, I might be back to goblins next time =)
Ensnaring Bridge in multiples isn't THAT bad. In fact a 2nd one would have locked up my game 1 against you.


Overall the cards I liked seeing LEAST were Rift Bolt and Magma Jet. Rift Bolt frequently became Blood Moon or Vexing Shusher games 2 and 3. Magma Jet may be a disappointing necessity because it scrys (scries?) the extra land away. I just hate spending 2 mana for 2 damage every time I play it...
What cards from the main deck does everyone normally board out when sideboarding? I know the obvious ones (PoP comes out against mono-basic.deck), but sideboarding is a weakness of mine and I'd be interested in hearing from others on it.

The RDW player that top 8'd (and then failed against 4cCounterTop) had an interesting piece of tech that worked well for him all day. He ran 3 Seal of Fire. He said it helped dodge counter magic so he could kill Stoneforge Mystic.

[Tammit67]

@Tammit, I dunno, I might be back to goblins next time =)
[cards]Ensnaring Bridge in multiples isn't THAT bad. In fact a 2nd one would have locked up my game 1 against you.


Locked is kinda misleading. I had active Jace and Elspeth and a huge KotR with Swords in my hand iirc. I'd have to Jace you, but the game would have been different to be sure.

[jares]

@jares, Searing Blaze is misleadingly bad. Fiction is right here. On the draw it is too slow to hit Mom and then it's dead for the rest of the game. On the play it is nice as long as you have a fetchland. There were a couple of times where I went to play it and then realized that I'd only be doing 1 damage... It LOOKS so good because you hurt there board without deviating from your primary strategy but it's not a great card in this format.
Thanks for providing some input on Searing Blaze. I have a few responses to the following notes:

"On the draw it is too slow to hit Mom and then it's dead for the rest of the game."

I find that this reason is too narrow as a basis for saying that the card is bad (this form of logic would probably have more weight if we're able to enumerate a list of creatures rather than just specifying that the card is bad against Mother of Runes). Also, for this case, the only reasonable play is to respond to the Mom trigger - this might not be a situation that we'd like to be in, but it's also not a bad enough situation to serve as a basis for saying that a card is bad.

"On the play it is nice as long as you have a fetchland."

This reason probably warrants more weight in our considerations for why Searing Blazep might be bad, not because of being on the play, but because of the inherent inconsistencies of landfall. Its dependency on landfall presents a sense of inconsistency in a deck that thrives on redundancies. Personally, I play 12 Fetches (alongside 8 Mountain), so I rarely have a problem with triggering landfall whenever I need to. Still, the inconsistency is there.

"There were a couple of times where I went to play it and then realized that I'd only be doing 1 damage..."

This is what happens because of the said inconsistency.


Personally, I've had very good experiences with Searing Blaze, specifically against the following matchups:

Merfolk
Zoo
Burn (mirror)
Maverick
Mono-Black (Aggro/Control)
Affinity

Basically any opposing deck that has a fair amount of creatures makes the card playable. I've observed that what it does for me in these match-ups is that it significantly swings the tempo of the game towards my advantage (it's essentially a 2-for-1), especially when I'm already losing based on the game state. If there was one thing that I like about the card, its that it helps in the situations where you would otherwise be losing.

That is not to say that I haven't had my share of problems with the card. As previously stated, landfall won't always be available, and even when you do have a means of triggering it, you would sometimes be forced to play around with the timing for it, causing some slightly awkward changes in how you would normally play the rest of the deck.

I used to have Searing Blaze in the MD because of how my meta used to look like (back when Merfolk was heavily played), but I'd probably cut it now in favor of a more reliable burn spell (or even Keldon Marauders). A few SB slots for it might still be worthwhile.

In summary, I wouldn't say that Searing Blaze is a bad card in the Format, but rather, it becomes bad depending on how the metagame shifts from one form to another. It's also worth noting that, Burn might be the only archetype that's capable of properly wielding the card (and also Zoo maybe).

I'd be interested to hear additional objective evaluations of this card. I'm sure that there are a few points (for both pros and cons) that have not been stated yet.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Overall the cards I liked seeing LEAST were Rift Bolt and Magma Jet. Rift Bolt frequently became Blood Moon or Vexing Shusher games 2 and 3. Magma Jet may be a disappointing necessity because it scrys (scries?) the extra land away. I just hate spending 2 mana for 2 damage every time I play it...

What cards from the main deck does everyone normally board out when sideboarding? I know the obvious ones (PoP comes out against mono-basic.deck), but sideboarding is a weakness of mine and I'd be interested in hearing from others on it.
I've never liked Magma Jet. Much like yourself, it feels underwhelming to play a 2-damage card, especially because it costs 2 mana! I find that we could probably get more value from a card that costs 2 mana. Again, Keldon Marauders comes to mind (lol):laugh:.

I remember that a few decks have tried to splash blue for Delver of Secrets (and even Brainstorm). The scry from Magma Jet might be worthwhile for those configurations.

Lava Spike is one of the cards that I usually side-out, aside from the obvious Price of Progress against those that don't use non-basics. Flame Rift also comes out in certain match-ups.

Cheers,
jares

[Ace/Homebrew]

I wouldn't say that Searing Blaze is a bad card in the Format, but rather, it becomes bad depending on how the metagame shifts from one form to another.


I agree. When Tribal is big it is a much better card. I don't like it main deck but could see using it in the sideboard depending on meta shifts.



Lava Spike is one of the cards that I usually side-out, aside from the obvious Price of Progress against those that don't use non-basics. Flame Rift also comes out in certain match-ups.


Flame Rift makes sense, thanks! Why Lava Spike though?
jares, you mind sharing your list?

[jares]

I agree. When Tribal is big it is a much better card. I don't like it main deck but could see using it in the sideboard depending on meta shifts.

Flame Rift makes sense, thanks! Why Lava Spike though?
jares, you mind sharing your list?
Lava Spike sometimes goes out simply because it's only able to target players. A specific example is when your opponent is the type of deck that would use Leyline of Sanctity (e.g. Enchantress, my least favorite match-up when playing Burn). In comparison, Flame Rift becomes much more important in this match-up because it does not target players. Another case where you would want to side-out Lava Spike is when you're up against a creature-heavy deck (or a deck with creatures that you'll need to address), and especially when you have SB cards packed for those situations (e.g. Searing Blaze).

Honestly, it's been a while now since I've actually played Burn competitively (I've picked-up Dredge as my deck of choice), so my list might be a bit outdated (e.g. Searing Blaze MD). I'll try to check if I have the list readily available somewhere.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Pulp_Fiction]

@jares: Searing Blaze isn't bad, but its just in a format like Legacy there are so many other cards to play with that are better in burn that this should hardly make the cut. Magma Jet is in here for the scrying ability and finding Bridge. I agree, I hate paying 2 mana for 2 damage but it is really the only burn spell that burns AND digs in mono-red.

The Maverick matchup isn't that bad with Bridge. I'd say its still in our favor even though they have answers for Bridge, they still have to address it and by nature of being Burn we are usually going to kill them on turns 4-6.

When I SB Thoughtseize comes in against everything except decks with Chalice. I auto-cut Lava Spike against everything and usually remove some form of Flame Rifts and Rift Bolts. I cut Fireblast against anything with Force due to the reliance on Shusher. Just use your judgment. I have cut every card in the deck before at some time or another, but most of the time just think: Spike, Flame Rift, Rift Bolt/Fireblast.

[jares]

I agree. When Tribal is big it is a much better card. I don't like it main deck but could see using it in the sideboard depending on meta shifts.

Flame Rift makes sense, thanks! Why Lava Spike though?
jares, you mind sharing your list?
Here's the list that I last played with:

Main Deck:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
1x Shard Volley
4x Fireblast
4x Price of Progress
4x Flame Rift
4x Goblin Guide
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Searing Blaze

Lands:
8x Mountain
3x Arid Mesa
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Smash to Smithereens

Notes:

I'm unsure of what I would put in for the 3x Searing Blaze slots, but Sulfuric Vortex is looking good against the current meta.
I remember I also used to have 3x Volcanic Fallout in the SB.
I've been trying to mess with Spark Elemental to try and maximize the number of 1-cost 3-damage cards, but I'm not sure that it's worth risking the situation where you're not able to deal the last few points of damage because your opponent has a blocker untapped (or even a Swords to Plowshares ready).

It's been a while since I've tried to upgrade the list, so I'm hoping to find something compellingly good from the new set.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

@jares: Searing Blaze isn't bad, but its just in a format like Legacy there are so many other cards to play with that are better in burn that this should hardly make the cut. Magma Jet is in here for the scrying ability and finding Bridge. I agree, I hate paying 2 mana for 2 damage but it is really the only burn spell that burns AND digs in mono-red.

The Maverick matchup isn't that bad with Bridge. I'd say its still in our favor even though they have answers for Bridge, they still have to address it and by nature of being Burn we are usually going to kill them on turns 4-6.

When I SB Thoughtseize comes in against everything except decks with Chalice. I auto-cut Lava Spike against everything and usually remove some form of Flame Rifts and Rift Bolts. I cut Fireblast against anything with Force due to the reliance on Shusher. Just use your judgment. I have cut every card in the deck before at some time or another, but most of the time just think: Spike, Flame Rift, Rift Bolt/Fireblast.
I guess it's fair to say that Magma Jet is indeed an unpleasant necessity, especially if there's a need for you to dig. The way I go about it, though, is to try to minimize the need for "digging" by going with as much redundancy as I can (thus, the Shard Volley and the "safe" number of lands; I can't remember the number of times that I've been tempted to go down to 19 or less). I also try to help minimize the need to dig by maximizing the fetch land count (I've been thinking of going up to 14, but the returns aren't too attractive based on the math), which conveniently helps support Grim Lavamancer.

I just had a thought though... I never considered playing just 1-2 copies of Magma Jet. You never want to draw/play the card early, and also not in multiples, but the benefits of having "just enough" might be worthwhile. I'm actually surprised that I never considered this (maybe because all the lists I've seen so far have 3-4 MD) :tongue:. How do you guys go about using Magma Jet?

Kind Regards,
jares

[Ace/Homebrew]

When I SB Thoughtseize comes in against everything except decks with Chalice.

Why not main deck Thoughtseize? I ask having never tried the card. You speak of it's importance for games 2 and 3, and it seems like it could steal game 1s too. I'll have to mess around with it to see how I like it...


Here's the list that I last played with:

Thanks for sharing jares!

I notice Volcanic Fallout and Flamebreak aren't getting any love nowadays. Is this because the CMC > 2? Fallout especially seems good with Geist of Saint Traft growing in popularity. Thoughts?

[jares]

Why not main deck Thoughtseize? I ask having never tried the card. You speak of it's importance for games 2 and 3, and it seems like it could steal game 1s too. I'll have to mess around with it to see how I like it...

Thanks for sharing jares!

I notice Volcanic Fallout and Flamebreak aren't getting any love nowadays. Is this because the CMC > 2? Fallout especially seems good with Geist of Saint Traft growing in popularity. Thoughts?
I think that Volcanic Fallout becomes necessary whenever Tribal Decks become more common in the metagame. I personally did not need it that much during the last time I played because I have MD Searing Blaze, so I was able to clear some room in the SB that way. I wouldn't worry too much about Geist of Saint Traft, though, as I feel that Volcanic Fallout is best used against Merfolk (which is why I prefer it over Flamebreak).

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

The Maverick matchup isn't that bad with Bridge. I'd say its still in our favor even though they have answers for Bridge, they still have to address it and by nature of being Burn we are usually going to kill them on turns 4-6.
I'm thinking that I like Sulfuric Vortex way better than Ensnaring Bridge for the following reasons:

Sulfuric Vortex is able to deal (constant) damage, and can even potentially win the game by itself.
If we're boarding-in Ensnaring Bridge against decks that run Stoneforge Mystic, then it seems to me like Sulfuric Vortex can essentially accomplish the same job (preventing life gain from Batterskull and/or Umezawa's Jitte) with added benefits. Sulfuric Vortex works much better in multiples compared to Ensnaring Bridge.
Sulfuric Vortex does not present the possibility of ineffectiveness (as someone has already stated) when faced against smaller creatures (e.g. Maverick). In general, we can expect Sulfuric Vortex to always be reliable in what we expect it to do.

I'd be interested to know if there's anything else that I'm missing regarding how Ensnaring Bridge has worked well for you guys.

Kind Regards,
jares

[redhamjack]

Hello, I'm going to a local legacy tournament next Wednesday with the following list:


4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Bump in the Night
4x Flame Rift
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Grim Lavamancer

4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
8x Mountain
2x Badlands


The sideboard is still up in the air, as I plan to scout a bit once I get to the store, but will likely include the usual suspects.

As for the Bridge/Vortex debate, I'm squarely on the fence. I plan to further evaluate after this tournament. If I decide to run vortex, I will cut the black in the deck in favor of more creatures as Ensnaring Bridge turns off your own guys, which is problematic.

The one card I absolutely love in this deck is Top. That card is soo good at finding me what I need at the right time. It gives burn reach which is great. Honestly, this should have been added years ago.

[jares]

Hello, I'm going to a local legacy tournament next Wednesday with the following list:


4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Bump in the Night
4x Flame Rift
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Grim Lavamancer

4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
8x Mountain
2x Badlands


The sideboard is still up in the air, as I plan to scout a bit once I get to the store, but will likely include the usual suspects.

As for the Bridge/Vortex debate, I'm squarely on the fence. I plan to further evaluate after this tournament. If I decide to run vortex, I will cut the black in the deck in favor of more creatures as Ensnaring Bridge turns off your own guys, which is problematic.

The one card I absolutely love in this deck is Top. That card is soo good at finding me what I need at the right time. It gives burn reach which is great. Honestly, this should have been added years ago.
I've also tested the build with the black splash for Bump In the Night, and I wasn't too happy with the results. At the end of the day, weakening your manabase in exchange for the inclusion of a black Lava Spike didn't seem to be worth it.

I personally think that adding Sensei's Divining Top causes the deck to lose tempo, but this might be a necessary evil in exchange for filtering your draw. I haven't personally tested it, but I'd be interested to see the results (I've got Shrapnel Blast at the back of my head when I think of including Artifacts in Burn).

Kind Regards,
jares

[redhamjack]

I've also tested the build with the black splash for Bump In the Night, and I wasn't too happy with the results. At the end of the day, weakening your manabase in exchange for the inclusion of a black Lava Spike didn't seem to be worth it.

I personally think that adding Sensei's Divining Top causes the deck to lose tempo, but this might be a necessary evil in exchange for filtering your draw. I haven't personally tested it, but I'd be interested to see the results (I've got Shrapnel Blast at the back of my head when I think of including Artifacts in Burn).

Kind Regards,
jares

That has been my concern too. I do hate being open to Wasteland. What I have found though is that I can play Bump in the Night last, and having the extra bolt seems worth it in my mind.

Also, you need to test Top. It is really, really good. Again, just play normally until you need some extra reach, then use top to get there. That way you don't lose any tempo.

I have also been thinking of Shrapnel Blast. I worry that I would need to run artifact lands as well. It would be interesting to test though.

[jares]

That has been my concern too. I do hate being open to Wasteland. What I have found though is that I can play Bump in the Night last, and having the extra bolt seems worth it in my mind.

Also, you need to test Top. It is really, really good. Again, just play normally until you need some extra reach, then use top to get there. That way you don't lose any tempo.

I have also been thinking of Shrapnel Blast. I worry that I would need to run artifact lands as well. It would be interesting to test though.
That's how I've been playing it too, trying to hold off on getting Badlands into play for as long as possible. The problem, though, is that you're likely to run into a situation where you'll need to put Badlands into play, not to case Bump in the Night, but to cast something else to keep up with your natural tempo. This has been my experience with my testing so far, and hopefully you'll get better results. It's also worth noting, by the way, that running Badlands also allows your own Price of Progress to hit you.

As for Sensei's Divining Top, having to cast it instead of a Burn card is a loss of tempo by itself - unless you do activate its draw ability on the same turn, which in turn would cost you 1 mana (or 2 mana if you did the scry first), plus the cost of the burn spell you intend to cast. That scenario isn't something that sounds too optimal to me, except maybe if the meta that I'm playing in is slow enough to allow me to invest on "reach".

I've tested Shrapnel Blast recently, and as much as have been wanting that to work, it's currently not a good idea.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Julian23]

Friend of mine took 3rd place (http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?postid=3938770#post3938770) at his first ever Magic tournament with the Burn deck we threw together for him. It was so funny, when I asked him, what his opponents were playing, he was always just like "I don't know, lol". :laugh:

For the record, he was playing a full playset of Volcanic Fallout which broke our metagame of Elves and Maverick right in half.

[lordofthepit]

I tuned into the SCG: DC coverage after watching the NFC Championship, but I wasn't in time. It sounds like Burn won it all though.

[optml]

@ Redhamjack I had made a similar deck to the one you mentioned that included bump in the night, but I have never yet cast it's flashback cost (I think I'm a bit greedy with my fireblasts.)

As I made it black though, I have added a couple of cards that I found slow the deck by a turn or so, but increase consistency considerably.

Looking at your list (below) I would make the following changes:


4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Bump in the Night
4x Flame Rift
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Grim Lavamancer

4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
8x Mountain
2x Badlands


-3 Ensnaring bridge
-3 sensei's divining top
-4 Flame Rift

+4 Keldon Marauders
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 cabal therapy (synergistic with marauders and confidant)

I found that the extra few points of damage the confidant usually slips through, combined with the draw engine it provides makes the splash for black very dangerous.

Just my 2 cents...

[NecroYawgmoth]

So Burn took first place in the SCG Legacy Opens with the following list:

4 Goblin Guide
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift

17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard:
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens


I still don't get it why Figure of Destiny should be so good in Burn.

[SlopeeJ]

I don't get it either, I didn't watch online but I did read about the couple of burn matches on scg. I can see figure of destiny being good for 2 reasons, 1 is you can sink extra mana into him early and still attack. 2 he is an okay topdeck late game because you can just make him big.

I dunno, Lavamancer just seems better to me.

[rxavage]

I tuned into the SCG: DC coverage after watching the NFC Championship, but I wasn't in time. It sounds like Burn won it all though.


Yes, Austin Yost took first with mono buRn. He also top 8'd Las Vegas i think. Anyways, he showed everyone that burn is a competitve deck and should be feared.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I dunno, Lavamancer just seems better to me.

Lavamancer doesn't look good IMO also... Lavamancer needs Fetchlands, and Fetchlands doesn't really help to damagerace.

Guide, Marauders and Hellspark[depending on meta], are the only 3 creatures I'd tolerate in burn.

[Falk]

Lavamancer doesn't look good IMO also... Lavamancer needs Fetchlands, and Fetchlands doesn't really help to damagerace.


Lavamancers also makes it really hard to use Barbarian Ring for damage.

[Ziveeman]

Fetchlands also seem bad with Stifle running around again.

[jares]

So Burn took first place in the SCG Legacy Opens with the following list:

4 Goblin Guide
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift

17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Sideboard:
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens


I still don't get it why Figure of Destiny should be so good in Burn.
I personally think that Figure of Destiny is a meta choice more than anything, and it's an excellent meta choice imho.

As for the lack of Grim Lavamancer, I believe that this was also based on what the meta was going to look like. A lot of graveyard hate will be going around, and Grim Lavamancer might not be as easy to activate by then. I'm not a fan of too many creatures in Burn, though, but you can't argue with results. Hellspark Elemental is an excellent alternative to the consistency that Grim Lavamancer damage provides for the deck, though I personally would have chosen to play Sulfuric Vortex instead (mainly because that Hellspark Elemental has some minor dis-synergy with Barbarian Ring).

I also searched SCG for this deck, and I found this list to have placed 8th, not 1st. The SB was also slightly different, with Shattering Spree instead of Smash to Smithereens, and Artifact Graveyard hate instead of Faerie Macabre.

Cheers,
jares

[Lejay]

though I personally would have chosen to play Sulfuric Vortex instead (mainly because that Hellspark Elemental has some minor dis-synergy with Barbarian Ring).


Please tell me how sulfuric vortex has better synergy with barbarian ring.

[264505]

I also searched SCG for this deck, and I found this list to have placed 8th, not 1st. The SB was also slightly different, with Shattering Spree instead of Smash to Smithereens, and Artifact Graveyard hate instead of Faerie Macabre.

Here's his list from DC, he finished first there.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43392
His list from LV, he finished 8th there.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42137

You were looking at the wrong list.

[lochlan]

As for the lack of Grim Lavamancer, I believe that this was also based on what the meta was going to look like. A lot of graveyard hate will be going around, and Grim Lavamancer might not be as easy to activate by then.

Dude, no skilled player sides in graveyard hate for Lavamancer, that is ludicrous. Why remove cards from the yard instead of just removing Lavamancer?

[jares]

Please tell me how sulfuric vortex has better synergy with barbarian ring.
I believe that you misread my statement. Kindly refer to the following:
"I personally would have chosen to play Sulfuric Vortex instead (mainly because that Hellspark Elemental has some minor dis-synergy with Barbarian Ring)."

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Dude, no skilled player sides in graveyard hate for Lavamancer, that is ludicrous. Why remove cards from the yard instead of just removing Lavamancer?
I agree 100%! :tongue:

The thing is, what I'm referring to are MD effects that affect the graveyard (which you may or may not have seen in your respective metagame). Also, my statements were not a generalization of any analysis of Grim Lavamancer, but rather, an effort to try and provide some sense for why Grim Lavamancer was excluded from the list. At the end of the day, it might have just been the deckbuilder's preference for all we know :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Here's his list from DC, he finished first there.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43392
His list from LV, he finished 8th there.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42137

You were looking at the wrong list.
Cool. Thanks for the reference. The differences in SB was a major upgrade imho (and also based on the results).

Kind Regards,
jares

[SlopeeJ]

I didn't mean to turn the thread into a lavamancer vs figure discussion. I just stated MY opinion and I think a recurring 2 damage a turn is better than figure even with barb ring.


It could be right or wrong, just my opinion

[jares]

I didn't mean to turn the thread into a lavamancer vs figure discussion. I just stated MY opinion and I think a recurring 2 damage a turn is better than figure even with barb ring.

It could be right or wrong, just my opinion
Yeah, I personally would agree with you based on experience, but I can't discount that going with the alternative configuration (as was used in the list) would also have some benefits. It seems to me that Barbarian Ring and Hellspark Elemental are the cards in the list that you can't play alongside Grim Lavamancer, so maybe the reasoning behind the build started from that, or maybe even in trying to avoid Fetch Lands (which is also fuel for playing Grim Lavamancer early in the game).

I might also try testing a configuration without Fetches, but with Barbarian Ring. The only concern I have with that land is that it can't be used to play Fireblast, but it's a burn card by itself anyway, so that drawback might be negligible.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Lejay]

I believe that you misread my statement. Kindly refer to the following:
"I personally would have chosen to play Sulfuric Vortex instead (mainly because that Hellspark Elemental has some minor dis-synergy with Barbarian Ring)."

Kind Regards,
jares

No I did not. If you prefer vortex over elemental because elemental has disynergy with ring, that means you consider that that disynergy doesn't exist between vortex and ring.
But it does exist, they have the exact same problem of not filling the graveyard under common circumstances. So you gave a card choice with zero justification and you surprisingly don't recognize it.

kind regards,
Lejay

[jares]

No I did not. If you prefer vortex over elemental because elemental has disynergy with ring, that means you consider that that disynergy doesn't exist between vortex and ring.
But it does exist, they have the exact same problem of not filling the graveyard under common circumstances. So you gave a card choice with zero justification and you surprisingly don't recognize it.

kind regards,
Lejay
Haha, yeah, I totally missed that Sulfuric Vortex does not go to the GY! :tongue:

I guess what I was trying to say was that I prefer Sulfuric Vortex in my meta because SFM decks are a bit too common, and that Hellspark Elemental would be the first card I'd cut because of its dis-synergy with Barbarian Ring. I was also thinking that maybe Spark Elemental might be more cost-friendly, though Hellspark Elemental definitely has the upper-hand in card advantage.

Kind Regards,
jares

[lyracian]

Yes, Austin Yost took first with mono buRn. He also top 8'd Las Vegas i think. Anyways, he showed everyone that burn is a competitve deck and should be feared.A most suprising result. Probably the cheapest deck to win one of these events. :laugh:

Interesting to see 5 Blasts in the sideboard for fighting Blue decks.

[Justin]

Figure of Destiny seems like it's way too slow for burn. Some people consider it too slow for Zoo. Yet, it keeps popping up on Burn lists that do well at huge tourneys. I used to play it in my Rw sligh deck, but I became unhappy with it and cut it for more aggressive stuff. I supose the advantage of the Figure is that it's really the only card in the deck that gives you something to do with extra mana. It can be a good finisher late in the game if you have a lot of excess lands. It doesn't really fit with the theme of the deck, because Burn wants to win on turn three or four, but maybe it's not horrible to have three copies of something like Figure that has a chance to get you there, when your deck has otherwise run out of gas.

[jares]

I did some quick testing on the following list, and I've found that I've become comfortable with how this configuration plays itself out:

//Creatures = 12
4x Goblin Guide
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Spark Elemental

//Burn = 29
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Fireblast
4x Flame Rift
4x Price of Progress
1x Shard Volley

//Lands = 19
2x Barbarian Ring
17x Mountain
//Total = 60

Notes:
I've found that Shard Volley essentially acts as a 5th Fireblast. It has worked very well as a one-off, but I definitely won't increase that number unless I decide to lessen the number of Fireblast, which is unlikely.
I used to dislike Spark Elemental becuase of the possibility of drawing into it when what you needed was a burn spell, but it hasn't disappointed me so far. It seems that this card does well when played alongside Keldon Marauders. This experiment is also an exploration of the fact that Hellspark Elemental was used successfully in the list that placed 1st.
The list I usually play uses Grim Lavamancer and Fetch Lands, and I didn't seem to miss those cards when I was doing my testing. Surprisingly, I also had less problems with not drawing enough lands even though I went down to 19 lands.
Based on my observation, the tempo advantage that Keldon Marauders and Spark Elemental have when compared to Grim Lavamancer is what you're going for when playing this configuration.
The sideboard is still up in the air, but it'll likely be a balance of Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Vexing Shusher, Pyrostatic Pillar, and Smash to Smithereens.

I'll continue testing this build and see if there might be anything else that I can gather from this configuration.

Any additional input would be appreciated.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Forgottenforce]

Interesting builds, Jares. I myself have been slow to adopt HSE and always thought of Sparky as bolt 17-20. Keep us updated on the list turns out.

DKA has brought us little, mostly a new SB option but has anyone given any thought to Faithless looting (the first card and possibly the best card spoiled)? Since its printing Magma Jet, was often time considered a staple due to its ability to dig. Looting gives us this and more. It provides card quality, choosing to discard useless lands lategame for much needed burn. In addition, it accelerates threshold needed B. ring or fuel for the less favored Mancer. I think a build with HSE compliments Looting very way adding even more advantage to the card.

[jares]

Interesting builds, Jares. I myself have been slow to adopt HSE and always thought of Sparky as bolt 17-20. Keep us updated on the list turns out.

DKA has brought us little, mostly a new SB option but has anyone given any thought to Faithless looting (the first card and possibly the best card spoiled)? Since its printing Magma Jet, was often time considered a staple due to its ability to dig. Looting gives us this and more. It provides card quality, choosing to discard useless lands lategame for much needed burn. In addition, it accelerates threshold needed B. ring or fuel for the less favored Mancer. I think a build with HSE compliments Looting very way adding even more advantage to the card.
I guess the main reason for why I'm trying to swerve away from the direction of HSE is because I'm uneasy with the damage output of HSE for 2 mana, given that this damage also has to go through the combat phase (against other blockers, removal spells, etc.). Spark Elemental looks much more attractive to me specifically because of what you mentioned - it works like an extra Lightning Bolt, especially in the first few turns when there's less resistance. At the end of the day, though, HSE might be the superior choice because it's able to give a total of 6 damage.

DKA has been disappointing from the point of view of the Burn player, but I'm not surprised - how often to we get a new card that we can seriously consider anyway? :tongue: I find that Faithless Looting might be useful in some configuration of Burn, but it's unlikely to be in the configurations that I'm using/testing. After all the pros and cons are left on the table, I still find that I'd be happier to draw into a burn spell with at least 3 damage rather than a Faithless Looting. I guess that this is why Magma Jet is the much more superior choice - because it deals 2 damage. Also, Magma Jet is able to provide the card filtering without the prerequisite of drawing into "dead cards" (as Faithless Looting will only be able to provide some value if you already have some cards to discard for it - this seems like a very strange prerequisite for card advantage). Filling up your GY is what the card is very good at, which is why Dredge has gone nuts when this card was printed :laugh: (myself also being a Dredge player).

Cheers,
jares

[redhamjack]

Hey Guys,

Just got back from a small tourney in Ann Arbor. 14 people came out so we had 4 rounds with a cut to top 4. This report will be brief as I'm tired and doing this on my smart phone.

For refrence here is my list:



4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Flame Rift
4x Fireblast
4x Price of Progress
4x Bump in the Night
3x Sensei's Diving Top
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Grim Lavamancer

9x Fetchlands
2x Badlands
8x Mountain

Sideboard:

3x Volcanic Fallout
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Pyroblast
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Sulfuric Vortex


I honestly don't know where the sb is going, I need to fix it asap.
On to the report:

Round 1 - Tezzfinity

Game one I keep a slow hand, not knowing what he's on and get blown out by dubs Signal Pest and a Etched Champion.

Game two he is slow and I price of progress him twice for 16 total damage.

Game three he has a pretty nut draw and I try to kill his guys but I made a couple big play errors. I killed a Vault Skirge thinking he had double black to move his plating instead of bolting the ornithopter. Then next turn, I kill the ornithopter in combat and scoop em when he moves it without realizing I would now be at 1 instead of zero cause of the one less artifact. Aww well, you live and learn. I should have won that match though.

Round Two - UWg Stoneforge Mystic

In this matchup, bridge was so money. When I played it, he kinda did a double take. Anyway bridge plus top and hellbent equals gg for him.

Game two I brought in vortexes and the were also amazing. A constant source of damage is so good. I kinda got lucky in this one. He had top active and couldn't find a Snapcaster, Counterballance (his sb plan) or a second krosian grip so I won.

Round Three - Enchantress

Game one, he resolves Solitary Confinement at 2 life, but eventually has to sac it because he violent get his draw engine going. I bolt him.

Games two and three: one card, leyline of sancity. I can't beat it. I don't run enough dudes to beat it at all.

Despite being out of contention for top four, I need experience for gp indy so I keep playing.

Round four - Pox with a twist

Game one I keep a slow hand and he wastes my badlands (first time all day) and keeps me off my mana. I discover his twist is a reanimator win con though.

Game two, I play much more conservatively. He reanimates something, playing eight life. Next turn I burn him out.

Game three, he never gets off one land. I hate it when that happens.

Overall, I went 2-2 (6-5) but had alot of fun. The Ann Arbor store is fun. The meta is diverse, and the players are genuinely nice too.

For the deck. Bump was ok, but felt gimmicky. I think I may cut it. Top and Bridge were mvps. Top gives you a ton of reach, and bridge is such a road block. Grim lavamancer was also underwhelming. The must I ever got out of it was 4 dmg and I felt like it just made their removal relevant. On the other hand, I was always happy to see vortex. That card is nice. All said thought, I'm pretty happy with how I did considering how long its been since I last played.

Finally, I need a better SB strategy. It felt so scattershot to me. Any ideas on that? Also, sorry for any typos. Blame my smartphone.

[jares]

Overall, I went 2-2 (6-5) but had alot of fun. The Ann Arbor store is fun. The meta is diverse, and the players are genuinely nice too.

For the deck. Bump was ok, but felt gimmicky. I think I may cut it. Top and Bridge were mvps. Top gives you a ton of reach, and bridge is such a road block. Grim lavamancer was also underwhelming. The must I ever got out of it was 4 dmg and I felt like it just made their removal relevant. On the other hand, I was always happy to see vortex. That card is nice. All said thought, I'm pretty happy with how I did considering how long its been since I last played.

Finally, I need a better SB strategy. It felt so scattershot to me. Any ideas on that? Also, sorry for any typos. Blame my smartphone.
I like the typo for Sensei's Diving Top - sounds like something from Unglued :laugh:

My experience with testing Bump in the Night was also the same, and I concluded that the splash wasn't worth it.

I've been considering placing Sulfuric Vortex in the MD for some time now, and I'm happy to see good results for this card. I'm unsure, though, if the MD investment will be worth it. A few SB slots might be the best way to go.

As for the SB, mine currently looks like this:

2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Smash to Smithereens

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[264505]

I play burn a bit on MTGO. I was wondering what are the best options for SB graveyard hate? I have been playing with Relics, but they are pretty ineffective at stopping fast reanimator starts. I guess it really comes down to Crypt vs Macabre. Any thoughts?

[jares]

I play burn a bit on MTGO. I was wondering what are the best options for SB graveyard hate? I have been playing with Relics, but they are pretty ineffective at stopping fast reanimator starts. I guess it really comes down to Crypt vs Macabre. Any thoughts?
If Reanimator is your main concern, then I believe that Faerie Macabre is the card you're looking for, simply because it can't be countered (except for Stifle of course). Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus would work better against Dredge. Also, there's Grafdigger's Cage, but I personally prefer using the more definitive choices for GY hate, as Grafdigger's Cage can easily be bounced or destroyed if the opposing deck is prepared for it.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I am a decade long Pox player. I was getting tired of getting called a netdecker because of the recent uprising of Poxless Pox decks, so I decided to actually become a netdecker, and stole a friends Sligh deck.

I have really only one question.

I understand how to get by Reanimator, but is there something that Sligh can do after Iona resolves? I never really believe that just having the right cards in your deck will win, you have to draw them still.

Reanimator can be stopped, but with only having one color of spells in the deck, what can be done to get Iona off the table?

[Darklingske]

Except for stacking up in your Sb on both Surgical Extraction & Faerie Macabre (wich is not a good idea) there is not much you can do against them. Hope that they don't have the T2 Iona and that you have an opener with Faerie in it. Also watch out for the Exhume trick. If they want to exhume a non-critical critter (ie: no Iona, Imperial Archangel or Sphinx ot Steel Wind) just let them do it. If you remove the target, they can still entomb with the exhume on stack, but after the faerie has resolved.

[Darklingske]

Oh, and after DKA is legal, having some Grafdigger's Cages in the board doesn't solve your problems. You still need to have them in your opener.

[jares]

I am a decade long Pox player. I was getting tired of getting called a netdecker because of the recent uprising of Poxless Pox decks, so I decided to actually become a netdecker, and stole a friends Sligh deck.

I have really only one question.

I understand how to get by Reanimator, but is there something that Sligh can do after Iona resolves? I never really believe that just having the right cards in your deck will win, you have to draw them still.

Reanimator can be stopped, but with only having one color of spells in the deck, what can be done to get Iona off the table?
Unfortunately, based on my experience, there's not much that you can do except the "outs" that have already been mentioned. Some players here have opted to splash Blue for Brainstorm, Snapcaster Mage, etc., so that might provide some options in the SB (e.g. Chain of Vapor).

By the way, this is the Burn thread, and I believe that there's a thread dedicated for Sligh. You might want to check out that thread for an additional input.

Kind Regards,
jares

[lyracian]

Reanimator can be stopped, but with only having one color of spells in the deck, what can be done to get Iona off the table?The only things you have left are Barbarian Rings, unearthed Hellsparks and any Artefacts you play. If there life total is low enough you might get there but mostly it is an auto-loss once she hits.

[dsck]

You could board in Phyrexian Metamorph, now thats something your opponent wont expect from burn :wink:

[jares]

You could board in Phyrexian Metamorph, now thats something your opponent wont expect from burn :wink:
Hehe, that sounds pretty sneaky. Which other match-ups will Phyrexian Metamorph help though?

Cheers,
jares

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm not arguing for giving Metamorph a spot in the board, but it DOES get around Iona...

Also helps against:
Natural Order -> Progenitus
Umezawa's Jitte
Vendilion Clique
Thrun, the last Troll
Gaddock Teeg
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Let's you copy Batterskull too.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I was thinking of Phyrexian Metamorph for deleting an Iona, and many other Legacy staples. That is what I used for Pox because mono black has the same problems every other mono colored deck has against Iona.

and to kill two birds with one stone,
Jares, I play a more burn oriented deck. Sligh players and Burn players have two different mind sets, I play like a Burn player, even when I played Pox. which is why I posted here, for like minded peoples.

[jares]

I'm not arguing for giving Metamorph a spot in the board, but it DOES get around Iona...

Also helps against:
Natural Order -> Progenitus
Umezawa's Jitte
Vendilion Clique
Thrun, the last Troll
Gaddock Teeg
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Let's you copy Batterskull too.
I guess the question is "how many SB slots do you give to Phyrexian Metamorph if you'll be using the card?"

I personally would rather be prepared by not allowing Iona, Shield of Emeria to come into play at all, which is why Faerie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt, and the like have become the staples for addressing graveyard-centric decks. Not only do these cards address "Iona, Shield of Emeria", they also address the entire game plan of the decks that you'll be boarding them in for. Having alternatives is always good, though.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I was thinking of Phyrexian Metamorph for deleting an Iona, and many other Legacy staples. That is what I used for Pox because mono black has the same problems every other mono colored deck has against Iona.

and to kill two birds with one stone,
Jares, I play a more burn oriented deck. Sligh players and Burn players have two different mind sets, I play like a Burn player, even when I played Pox. which is why I posted here, for like minded peoples.
It's worth noting that the recent Burn deck that placed 1st in the last SCG tourney was configured with a somewhat Sligh-like variation, but was, of course, built (and played) with a Burn game plan in mind.

Cheers,
jares

[troopatroop]

The reason Figure is good in Burn, is because the deck ALWAYS runs out of gas. If you haven't won, and you tried, you're going to be without cards, so Figure is the perfect mana sink for the deck. I also noted the lack of Grim Lavamancer, and while it's true that it's not a very "fast card", he's also playing Figure! Weird, I also don't like FoD. The reason I don't like it, is because Delver and Nacatl are much better one drops to be playing. Splashing in Legacy is so easy to do, that unless you really want Price to deal 0 to you, there's little reason not to be playing the best creatures. Hellspark, Keldon Marauders, and Figure just don't do it for me.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Jares
you are right about Metamorph it is not worth the SB slot. Mcabre and whatever else Crypt/new cage (if you dig it) are more Viable, easier to cast and are not on the top of your mana curve.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@ troopatroop
when I was thumbing through the cards while I was building a burn/sligh deck, I saw Figure of Destiny, sneered at it, and tossed it aside. needs 6 mana to finish it off, and for five mana it is a 4/4 seemingly large dork.
I have played Pox forever, and have played Affinity since I drafted it when Mirroden came out. I will tell you this.

While playing Pox, and I never played the new versions, I played with 4 Pox and 4 Smallpox, I was aggressive, I am a burn player, not a control player. while playing with 8 Pox effects in my deck, I more often than not found myself being able to cast a Corrupt. now, I have never played the card Corrupt 6 mana cost, to deal an amount of life loss to an opponent and gain that much life equal to the number of swamps you control, because in Pox it would be stupid. Never the less, almost every match I found myself looking for an answer thinking "I really wish I had a Corrupt right now."

So as I was thumbing through the cards, and after I had flicked the FoD out of the build, I looked over the card again, and remembered all my Pox matches, and put it back in. It is easy to get it to be a 4/4 which is pretty large in Legacy, and if it is really late in to the game for whatever reason, it is not outside the realm of possibility to make it an 8/8. it is, however, hard for me to deal with casting a 4/4 for five total mana throughout its transformation, since I have been casting 4/4s for free since 2003 when Mirroden broke the system. holy crap that was 2003? I have been playing Pox for a lot longer than a decade. its been almost 15 years, 1998.

I hate Mauraders(sp) hate them. every single one of my magic friends tell me to play them, they all give different reasons. most of them are because it will almost always kill off a Zoo creature, and the shock the player. But best case scenario, you cast it, deal one damage, then attack next turn unblocked, then it dies and deals a damage, that is 5 damage over 3 turns which is terrible and extremely inefficient.
I have always had similar arguments over Flame Rift, even before Yost got there with them, I have always thought Burn players should be playing it. What other spells beyond Price of Progress, and a free Fireblast deal 4 damage, for 2 mana?
Burn's clock is so much faster and consistent than any other decks, why would it matter that it also deals 5 to you?

I like Figure of Destiny, I like Hellspark Elemental, and I like guide. I liked it more when it was attacking me, and letting me nab my lands, but a hastey 2/2 for one isnt bad. that is about it as far as sligh goes. Figure also goes against what I believe in as far as MtG is concerned. Aggressive attacking, and I do not mean with creatures. Defense, is not in my nature, offense is. Figure is a defensive play, but not defensive towards your opponent as much as it is towards your deck mana flooding. Which is why I think it works.

as for Grim Lavamancer, I do not love the Manancer, some do some dont. But if you were to run it, why not run Cursed scroll? your in top deck mode so quickly, it would help in flood situations the same with figure, the activation is on top of the mana curve, but in top deck mode, it is awesome to have in play. I may be championing this card because I desperately would like to hold onto my Pox days, and have played it in Pox forever, but I loved it in Pox, and would like to try it in Burn, but have yet to do it.

[jares]

as for Grim Lavamancer, I do not love the Manancer, some do some dont. But if you were to run it, why not run Cursed scroll? your in top deck mode so quickly, it would help in flood situations the same with figure, the activation is on top of the mana curve, but in top deck mode, it is awesome to have in play. I may be championing this card because I desperately would like to hold onto my Pox days, and have played it in Pox forever, but I loved it in Pox, and would like to try it in Burn, but have yet to do it.
The main reason for why Grim Lavamancer is a better choice over Cursed Scroll is because it just costs 1 mana to activate. Also, the condition that will allow Grim Lavamancer to be efficient is much easier to attain (use Fetches!) when compared to Cursed Scroll. In summary, Grim Lavamancer can provide you with ammunition as early as turn 2 (which is a very good alternative to a turn 1 Goblin Guide, especially in certain match-ups), and can allow you to play additional cards in a turn because of its low activation cost.

For reference, I used to also dislike Grim Lavamancer because I thought that it was slow, there are better options, etc. At the end of the day, though, the creature got things done, and I'd say that, in building a Burn deck, you must have a very good reason for not running Grim Lavamancer (like not using Fetches). At the end of the day, this is just based on my experience, and yours might tell you otherwise.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

The reason Figure is good in Burn, is because the deck ALWAYS runs out of gas. If you haven't won, and you tried, you're going to be without cards, so Figure is the perfect mana sink for the deck. I also noted the lack of Grim Lavamancer, and while it's true that it's not a very "fast card", he's also playing Figure! Weird, I also don't like FoD. The reason I don't like it, is because Delver and Nacatl are much better one drops to be playing. Splashing in Legacy is so easy to do, that unless you really want Price to deal 0 to you, there's little reason not to be playing the best creatures. Hellspark, Keldon Marauders, and Figure just don't do it for me.
I believe that avoiding the "splash" also means that your mana base will be much more reliable (i.e. avoiding Wasteland, always having the correct color of mana for your spells, etc.).

I personally don't run Figure of Destiny too, but the card has definitely proven itself, and at the end of the day, we can't argue with the results (with Burn having won the last SCG tourney using FOD, HSE, and KM).

Kind Regards,
jares

[Dewin]

Hi all! Austin Yost victory has encouraged me to try a Burn build without fetches.

Taking his list as reference (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7572&iddeck=55009) I'm not sure about the following choices:

Figure of Destiny: I think that it's a great card for Burn, but FOD, Keldon and Hellspark in the same list don't seem to curve very well.

Flame Rift: IMO it's also a great Burn spell but I think that it's not the best time to play it with Canadian Threshold and UR Burn as Decks to Beat.

Barbarian Ring: I'm not sure if it is worth considering that Wasteland is one of the most important cards in Legacy. Anyway, I haven't tested it yet.


I think that one-drops are important so if I didn't run FOD, I'd like to replace it for another drop. The problem is that the rest of red one drops available are a little poor... I was thinking on Stromkirk Noble. Has anybody tested Noble in Legacy? Its evasion isn't too much meaningful in this format but it could still help against some common creatures: Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage or Knight of the Reliquary. The main downside is that it's a horrible topdeck but I could palliate it if I also ran Magma Jet instead of Flame Rift.

What do you think about Magma Jet? Maybe too slow? I guess that it can work well in a build without fetches. It could help me to prevent flooded situations (I need some tool considering that I would have neither Barbarian Ring nor FOD to help) or even the contrary if I need to play some 3cost spell (Volcanic Fallout or Sulfuric Vortex). Also, it can kill some concerning creatures (Delver and Stoneforge).


In summary I was thinking about trying this list:

19 Mountain
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Goblin Guide
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 2 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre

[jares]

I think that one-drops are important so if I didn't run FOD, I'd like to replace it for another drop. The problem is that the rest of red one drops available are a little poor... I was thinking on Stromkirk Noble. Has anybody tested Noble in Legacy? Its evasion isn't too much meaningful in this format but it could still help against some common creatures: Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage or Knight of the Reliquary. The main downside is that it's a horrible topdeck but I could palliate it if I also ran Magma Jet instead of Flame Rift.

I believe that the main downside to Stromkirk Noble is not that it's a horrible top-deck (and that by itself is pretty bad already), but that it's best possible scenario, which is being cast on the first turn, is very underwhelming. It deals only 1 damage on turn two, and that is given that your opponent simply allowed you to get him through. It will be able to do a total of 3 damage by turn 3, given that you've had two uncontested attacks. Consider that, by comparison, Spark Elemental also costs 1-mana, but is able to deal 3 damage in only 1 turn, and also has Trample (which makes Stromkirk Noble's evasion pale in comparison) - and even then Spark Elemental has never been an auto-include in Burn decks! :laugh:

I hope that helps. I expect that, with further testing, you'll also reach this conclusion.

Kind Regards,
jares

[iamfrightenedtoo]

@Jares
what you said about stromkirk noble is both true, and what I hate about Keldon Marauders. when Marauders came out in Planechase(I htink) I loved them for Standard. I thought for Standard they were perfect. Burn, or even Sligh, I cant stand it. It is nice having the five damage, but if it is five damage. Against Zoo it is alright, you can kill just about anything Zoo throws at you, then shock your opponent, but still I hate it, it is too slow for the pay off.

If you cast a Reckless Abandon on one, it would be okay. that would be 6 damage for 3 mana, and would be even more of a profit if you were able to successfully attack with it, for 9 damage with a cost of 3.

I was thinking of taking out Flamerift, for Reckless Abandon, I run enough creatures, and a few of them are dead draws when you draw into 2 of them anyway.

[jares]

@Jares
what you said about stromkirk noble is both true, and what I hate about Keldon Marauders. when Marauders came out in Planechase(I htink) I loved them for Standard. I thought for Standard they were perfect. Burn, or even Sligh, I cant stand it. It is nice having the five damage, but if it is five damage. Against Zoo it is alright, you can kill just about anything Zoo throws at you, then shock your opponent, but still I hate it, it is too slow for the pay off.

If you cast a Reckless Abandon on one, it would be okay. that would be 6 damage for 3 mana, and would be even more of a profit if you were able to successfully attack with it, for 9 damage with a cost of 3.

I was thinking of taking out Flamerift, for Reckless Abandon, I run enough creatures, and a few of them are dead draws when you draw into 2 of them anyway.
Hehe, I've also had the same idea when I was first looking into my options for Burn, and I've found that the inconsistencies presented by Reckless Abandon (at least for Burn) is just not worth it. I would like for you to test this and see for yourself - it's an experience that will help, not only in Burn, but in deck building in general.

Regarding Keldon Marauders, I would like to note that I do not regard this card in the same way as Stromkirk Noble. The weaknesses of Stromkirk Noble (bad top deck, underwhelming board presence) are made up for by Keldon Marauders (to some degree) because of the following reasons:

Keldon Marauders deals damage immediately (however small at 1 damage).
Keldon Marauders' best case is well worth the investment at 5 damage for 2 mana.
In the worst case, Keldon Marauders will deal 2 damage and affect the board as a 3/3 body (as a blocker, taking out removal, etc.).

Also, Keldon Marauders has the following traits that Stromkirk Noble cannot compete with:

Keldon Marauders is a formidable blocker (if only on the first turn) at 3/3.
Keldon Marauders is a formidable attacker at 3/3.
Because of its Fading ability, Keldon Marauders is a unpopular target for removal. It's also much more difficult to kill because of its bulk.
Keldon Marauders doesn't have to attack to affect the playing field.

Now, I'm not saying that Keldon Marauders is an auto-include in Burn - I'm just saying that the comparison of Keldon Marauders and Stromkirk Noble is out of the question.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Dewin]

I believe that the main downside to Stromkirk Noble is not that it's a horrible top-deck (and that by itself is pretty bad already), but that it's best possible scenario, which is being cast on the first turn, is very underwhelming. It deals only 1 damage on turn two, and that is given that your opponent simply allowed you to get him through. It will be able to do a total of 3 damage by turn 3, given that you've had two uncontested attacks. Consider that, by comparison, Spark Elemental also costs 1-mana, but is able to deal 3 damage in only 1 turn, and also has Trample (which makes Stromkirk Noble's evasion pale in comparison) - and even then Spark Elemental has never been an auto-include in Burn decks! :laugh:

I agree that Noble doesn't look great and it's in fact a lower quality creature than FOD. I just want to try it because a non mana intensive one drop fits better with the rest of my creatures. About Spark Elemental I'd say that it's more like a Burn spell.
The good point about creatures like FOD and Noble is that they are a constant threat. Also against decks like Merfolks or Elves they can let you take a “Sligh role” without being worried of losing gas. Anyway, neither do I have too much hope on the vampire. I'll try to give you my conclusion after testing.

About the rest of the creatures I'm only confident of Goblin Guide… It's difficult to evaluate Keldon and Hellspark because they are sometimes great in some situations and also pretty bad in others. At the moment I'm running them because they seem very good against UR Burn and Canadian and also there aren't better creatures of the same cost...xD About Keldon, at first I thought that it was very good against Zoo and Flame Rift was bad in that matchup, but now I'm not sure if it's more close to the contrary. What I'm trying to say is that the fastest way is probably the best for this deck, so neither am I sure about Magma Jet.

Going to the side I'm thinking about getting the 4 Sulfuric Vortex cutting Volcanic Fallout. Fallouts don't seem too useful without Goblins and Merfolks being on top, and on the contrary Vortex looks great against Blade and Maverick.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

against Zoo, I cant think of any card I would want to use less than Flamerift. You are dealing yourself 4 damage, as well as your opponent. Which is normally fine, until your opponent casts Lightning Helix. At that point you successfully dealt your opponent 1 damage, and yourself 4.
Lightning Helix is already hard enough to deal with, without dealing yourself damage too.

I am almost fully on board with Keldon Marauders. The best case scenario is 5 damage, which is pretty beastly for only two mana. the absolute worst case scenario is it gets Bolted. Pathing it would be okay, you get a land, and they waste a path on a creature that will die in either the next turn, or in two turns. (No one would, but as I said, the absolute worst case scenario.) No. Maybe the worst case scenario is, you use it as a chump blocker to a 3/4 Tarmagoyf, and have no burn spell to finish-move the goyf. Still, unless this was a late game, and the goyf would have killed you, you normally wouldn't do such a thing.

The more and more I look at it, I think I would like to kill a creature with a Marauder, than not. I don't know, I have put very little thought into that; it doesn't sound like a bad idea to kill of would be attackers though.

As for Figure of Destiny. Even while I was playing Pox I have taken Burn to late game. So I imagine other decks can take it there. I do not know about any of you, but while playing Pox (and I mean Pox, I do not mean Smallpox decks) There were times when I could cast a Corrupt, a Nightmare, or an un Delved Tombstalker. ALl this while playing a deck that kills off my own lands. In Burn/Sligh you do not kill off your own lands, and I even ran the same amount of lands in Pox that are normally ran in Burn. I can only imagine there will be times when you draw more than 3 lands. In Burn this would be annoying. FoD makes flooding kind of okay. Nothing can replace Lightning Bolt or Chain Lighting. When you get flooded though, I would take an FoD being on the board, than not.

Another funny (funny to me) thing.
Goblin Guide: while I was playing Pox, and or Affinity, every time my opponent cast GG I was always happy. I took my 4-6 damage before killing it, and took the free lands, and then killed the card at my leisure. I was so willing to replace Burn/Sligh with my struggling pet deck Pox because Burn/Sligh was a deck I always thought I could pilot, and would enjoy doing so. While playing against the deck I always thought, "I would never run Goblin Guide in my build" It is ridiculous, that you would let your opponent get extra lands, and slightly mill there deck in their favor.

I thought this way, because even if I was playing Affinity, (my other pet deck) I am a Pox player at heart. I usually say I am a Burn player at heart, because I have always played Pox, the way Burn players play Burn. But, at heart I am a Poxer. So giving my opponent lands was always an incredulous idea.

In Burn/Sligh and Goblins. It doesn't matter, your opponent can have their lands. It is a hastey 2/2 that drops turn one. Most people should love to give up 4-6 life for it. But, I never understand why the card gets Path'd so often. I look down tables and always see it getting hated on. I never cared. I wouldn't care if my opponent cast it against me now while playing Burn. Most decks have creatures that can kill off a would be attacking GG, but people love to hate it out. Which if anyone could tell me why, I would love to know.
I have drawn 3 Guides and two lands in my opening hand a few times while play testing since Acquiring the deck, I only hope I can pull that off in a few games in my coming tourneys.

all for now,

[Dewin]

against Zoo, I cant think of any card I would want to use less than Flamerift. You are dealing yourself 4 damage, as well as your opponent. Which is normally fine, until your opponent casts Lightning Helix.

I'd board out FOD or Stromkirk Noble against Zoo, but not Flame Rift. Against Zoo you need to be very fast because they are more stable than us. In this old Patrick Sullivan's report, he talks about Flame Rift against Zoo: http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/_/1488

[Darklingske]

I don't know if it has already been discussed, but what would be the use of Planeswalkers in burn? I'm thinking about Koth for his ability to animate mountains or Chandra the firebrand for the double damage thing. Obviously they would only be good mid to late-game. Since we lack the power (and stability) during late game, wouldn't they improve that? Or is the inclusion of Planeswalkers a sacrilege for burnplayers?

[somethingdotdotdot]

I think its because chandra is both slow and not really efficient: for 4 mana she deals 1 damage turn 1, and ususally 3 damage turn 2 (by forking a lightning bolt or some variant). That's 4 damage for 4 mana that can't be split up into 2 turns. It's not mana efficient and slow.

[paeng4983]

I'd rather try stormblood berserker (SB) than stromkirk noble (SN).
most of the time, SB will be at 3/3 and he needs two creatures to block it.

[Darklingske]

I think its because chandra is both slow and not really efficient: for 4 mana she deals 1 damage turn 1, and ususally 3 damage turn 2 (by forking a lightning bolt or some variant). That's 4 damage for 4 mana that can't be split up into 2 turns. It's not mana efficient and slow.

Okay, thanks for that answer. Hadn"t thought it that way. But Koth gives you 4 damage immediatly, so that's pretty efficient to me. I'll try it out this week and if it's positive, I'll let you guys know.

[Phyrexian_Negator]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I didn't read the whole thread and search came up empty.

Anyways I was thinking about getting into Legacy again and Burn seems like a way to do that without spending obscene amounts of money.

So I remembered a deck called Ankh Sligh that some people played a few years ago and while it was never really popular or widely played I always thought it looked like it was fun to play.

It looked something like this:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Flame Rift
3 Price of Progress
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Fireblast

4 Ankh of mishra
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chrome Mox
4 Isochron Scepter

15 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory

Some played Great Furnace instead of Factories, a single Fork and/or Demonfire and without Isochron Scepter but all in all this is how I remember the deck.

My question is, is such a deck (with modifications of course, this is an old list) still viable in today's Legacy meta or is regular Burn just plain better?

Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

[paeng4983]

.

So I remembered a deck called Ankh Sligh that some people played a few years ago and while it was never really popular or widely played I always thought it looked like it was fun to play.

My question is, is such a deck (with modifications of course, this is an old list) still viable in today's Legacy meta or is regular Burn just plain better?

If your meta has a lot of mavs, zoo, RUG and other decks that love to abuse fetches, then i think Ankh Sligh can have a good chance, otherwise no.

[jares]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I didn't read the whole thread and search came up empty.

Anyways I was thinking about getting into Legacy again and Burn seems like a way to do that without spending obscene amounts of money.

So I remembered a deck called Ankh Sligh that some people played a few years ago and while it was never really popular or widely played I always thought it looked like it was fun to play.

It looked something like this:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Flame Rift
3 Price of Progress
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Fireblast

4 Ankh of mishra
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chrome Mox
4 Isochron Scepter

15 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory

Some played Great Furnace instead of Factories, a single Fork and/or Demonfire and without Isochron Scepter but all in all this is how I remember the deck.

My question is, is such a deck (with modifications of course, this is an old list) still viable in today's Legacy meta or is regular Burn just plain better?

Any answers would be greatly appreciated.
I also had dreams of being able to build Ankh Burn, but as soon as I got my set of Ankhs, I found out for myself that the tried-and-tested Burn lists are more reliable. The Ankh builds look like they're more explosive, but the inconsistencies brought about by the inclusions of these cards offset the benefits of the explosiveness of Ankh of Mishra and Shrapnel Blast.

I'd love to see someone successfully break that build though, so I encourage you to do some testing and let us know what you think :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[joey223]

So I remembered a deck called Ankh Sligh that some people played a few years ago and while it was never really popular or widely played I always thought it looked like it was fun to play.

It looked something like this:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Flame Rift
3 Price of Progress
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Fireblast

4 Ankh of mishra
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chrome Mox
4 Isochron Scepter

15 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory

Some played Great Furnace instead of Factories, a single Fork and/or Demonfire and without Isochron Scepter but all in all this is how I remember the deck.

My question is, is such a deck (with modifications of course, this is an old list) still viable in today's Legacy meta or is regular Burn just plain better?

Any answers would be greatly appreciated.


i think the deck your referring to is here:http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=12619
do a search at that site.you should come up a few different versions.

and it is fun to play! the look on your opponents face when you imprint a bolt or magma jet or even a shrapnel blast to the scepter is just priceless!

having said that, i found it to be a little clunky.having to pitch cards to chrome mox sucks.especially with this deck.i thought about making some changes to it like replacing the moxes with ensaring bridge and then adding a permanent damage source like lavamancer or cursed scroll and then some filter with divining top.it just seemed like if i did not get an explosive start i would lose slowly but surely. perhaps the changes i mentioned might give it a better chance at winning?

[david.gerco]

Urray to burn !!!

Second consecutive StarCity tournament :cool:

People are still not taking burn seriously!

On this metagame is bananas :smile:

Congratulations!!!!

[iamfrightenedtoo]

the deck that is placing is really Sligh.
People probably should not take the deck very seriously. You need to be a good player in order to win with it.

[catmint]

how can you say the deck is sligh?
Because it runs figure of destiny and only 28 burn spells?

you need to be a good player to win with any deck....

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Without getting off the subject of Burn, I can say it is Sligh because it is. And you are also wrong about all decks need good players.
Decks like Zoo, Burn, and Sligh really need good players to win because they capitalize on the opponents mistakes, bad players miss the opportunities their opponents give them.

Sligh has also always played heavy burn. It does not change the fact that it is a Sligh build.

[jares]

Without getting off the subject of Burn, I can say it is Sligh because it is. And you are also wrong about all decks need good players.
Decks like Zoo, Burn, and Sligh really need good players to win because they capitalize on the opponents mistakes, bad players miss the opportunities their opponents give them.

Sligh has also always played heavy burn. It does not change the fact that it is a Sligh build.
I believe that arguing whether this build (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43737) is Burn or Sligh is a step in the wrong direction; we'll probably be benefiting more from a discussion of why this build is doing very well in the current environment.

I hope that the following would help clarify (and conclude) this discussion of whether this build is Burn or Sligh:

The strategy of Sligh is to win by getting fast creatures into play and go on "beat down mode" as quickly as possible; burn spells are to be used as removal, and to finish-off an opponent whenever possible (in that sense, Zoo is more closely related to Sligh than Burn is).

Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders are NOT "Sligh Creatures" because of the temporary nature of these creatures - you couldn't possibly win with a Sligh-based strategy composed of creatures that stay only for a turn. These creatures are played in Burn because they provide great economy based on their cost-damage ratio, not because you want to (or would be able to) beat down your opponent with these creatures for the win.
Goblin Guide is heavily played in Burn because the Burn archetype cannot ignore the efficiency of having a hasty 2/2 creature for 1-mana - it's fast, cheap damage, which passes the criteria of what you would want to include in Burn.
I believe that Figure of Destiny is there as a meta choice. Many builds have been successful without the card, and it seems that it's working very well in the current meta. I also don't find this creature to be very good as a Sligh creature, as it's slightly more mana intensive than the usual Sligh components (though I wouldn't be surprised to see this card in Sligh builds, probably also as a meta choice).
In summary, as much as the build in question has a few creatures, I find that these creatures are not included in this deck to support a Sligh-centered strategy.

"I can say it is Sligh because it is."

I suggest that we avoid making any claims without providing sound reasoning for these statements. If we were to continue providing arguments this way, then we could just also easily say that "Burn IS Reanimator because it is".


I hope that that would help progress this discussion towards a more meaningful direction.

Kind Regards,
jares

[TsumiBand]

While it's almost derail-ish to talk about whether or not the deck presented is Burn or Sligh, I think it's important to remember one of the fundamental reasons a person plays a deck with the mentality of Burn. Burn's uber redundancy and extremely minimal non-land permanent count serve to make the opponent's cards dead and decisions pointless, and to make virtually every spell you play the possibility of being the gamewinner by being exactly like the card before it.

So I can understand the argument that adding 13 creatures to the deck, 8 of which you'd rather see stick, makes the deck fundamentally different. Whether or not it 'turns into Sligh' is besides the point; it deviated from one of the things that makes Burn win, and presumably it was done for a reason. I think it's more worthy of discussion to suss out what that reason is, and if it was a good one.

[from Cairo]

While it's almost derail-ish to talk about whether or not the deck presented is Burn or Sligh, I think it's important to remember one of the fundamental reasons a person plays a deck with the mentality of Burn. Burn's uber redundancy and extremely minimal non-land permanent count serve to make the opponent's cards dead and decisions pointless, and to make virtually every spell you play the possibility of being the gamewinner by being exactly like the card before it.

So I can understand the argument that adding 13 creatures to the deck, 8 of which you'd rather see stick, makes the deck fundamentally different. Whether or not it 'turns into Sligh' is besides the point; it deviated from one of the things that makes Burn win, and presumably it was done for a reason. I think it's more worthy of discussion to suss out what that reason is, and if it was a good one.

True.

I guess the lines between Burn-Sligh-Zoo, have always been a bit foggy. Is it creature heavy Burn? Is it burn heavy Sligh? Zoo traditionally has a bit different approach and is more recognizable with heavier creature count.

Personally, I've always thought of burn as running little to no creatures, and focusing on cards with 'guaranteed' damage to cost ratios (3:1 Bolts, 4:2 Flame Rift/POP) and then flushing out their list with w/e the best sub-optimal damage spells are playable at the time (sometimes Creatures): Recursive removal (Grim, Cursed Scroll), Utility (Mogg Fanatic, Flamebreak, Sulfuric Vortex), etc.

I can definitely see the comparison of the current SCGs lists to Sligh. The lists look pretty similar to the old 'Goyf Sligh' (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7458-Deck-Goyf-Sligh&highlight=goyf+sligh) lists of 07-09 and 'Naya Sligh' (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15730-RGW-Naya-Sligh&highlight=naya+sligh) lists of 09-Present. Burn heavy lists with 12-16 efficient guys that can get in some damage, but will be outclassed at which point one relies on burn to get there.

Figure of Destiny in particular stands out to me as being very atypical for Burn. Having no Haste and requiring mana over several turns to pump a creature that's susceptible to an opponent's removal. Not that it's a bad card or choice for the metagame, just that it feels like a card far closer to the Sligh/Zoo end of the spectrum rather than the Burn end.

[Infectious]

Brief history lesson; Jay Schneider is the developer (dating back to the summer of 1994) of "Sligh," which got it's name from Paul Sligh who played the deck with great success during the 1996 PTQ season for Atlanta.

Observations on Sligh by Jay in July 1996:
"Concept #1: The most important one. The Mana Curve. A
true Sligh deck (and any good active deck) is optimized to use
the mana curve that comes from playing one land per turn,
and using ALL of it's mana on every turn. This is done using a
"tiered" system. When you look at a Sligh deck you should see
'slots', not specific cards. Taking this approach Sligh looks
like this:

1 mana slot: 9-13
2 mana slot: 6-8
3 mana slot: 3-5
4 mana slot: 1-3
X spell: 2-3
Lightning bolt (critter kills): 8-10
mana 23-26 15-17 of color

In a deck designed to use it, it is highly effective to use all of
your mana each turn. Think of how often Sligh's 1 casting cost
critters do 5 - 10 points of damage before they are neutralized
or dealt with.

Concept #2: Card Advantage. It doesn't look like it but Sligh
is built on card advantage. The key is selective card
advantage. All of the cards in Sligh are effective by
themselves. Sligh is very effective at killing all of an
opponents creatures, thereby rendering creature support
cards useless. Orcish Artillery represent the culmination of this
principle, i.e. a useful card in and of itself that also gains card
advantage if it’s special ability is used just once.

Concept #3: How the attack progresses. First on the ground,
which an opposing deck should eventually stop. Then in the
air. If this attack is stopped then finish them off with direct
damage."
source= http://www.schacherer.de/frank/sparetime/mtg/sligh.html

The James Allen deck in question deviates far enough from these fundamental concepts that it wouldn't be considered a Sligh deck.

[Koby]

Legacy variants of Mono-red have not used X-powered spells since Legacy's inceptions. Sligh decks have long departed from that once Tempest hit also. While the history lesson is interesting; it doesn't address the changes in the speed, efficiency, and effectiveness of today's Mono-red options.

There are two schools of thoughts for Mono-red (non-Goblins):
1. Burn - no creatures to maintain VCA (virtual card advantage).
2. Red Deck Wins - uses fast, efficient dorks to deal damage early, freeing the burn spells to remove blockers and provide reach.

The top placing mono-red lists are of the latter variety, and the upper limit of creatures used is 16. Burn's limitations are that after turn 3-4, the deck is in topdeck mode and can't play a reactive game. RDW solves this by providing reusable sources of damage (aka Permanents) that can sustain the damage output long enough to capitalize on any changes to the game plan.

Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull effectively changed the way Burn has to play and must expend it's limited resources to answer the Squire in order to prevent future life gain.

I don't think it really matters what you end up calling it, burn or RDW or Sligh. They essentially have enough similarities that it makes no difference how to play or approach each deck.

IMO, RDW approach is more well rounded and can better utilize the "mana curve" to produce consistent results.

The Legacy mana curve tops at 3 mana. For instance, I've used this curve in RDW to decent results:

0cc - 4 - aka Fireblast
1cc - 25
2cc - 8
3cc - 3

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Cursed Scroll

2 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders
3 Price of Progress

3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

12 Fetchlands (could up to 13 without any trouble)
8 Mountains

This is a similar approach to Patrick Sullivan's philosophy on RDW. This approach is soft to both Tarmogoyf and Stifle however, so it's not best suited in some metagames.

[Dewin]

After some testing with Stromkirk Noble, I'd say that it is not definitely great in Legacy but it's not too bad. It's a nice first turn drop but after that it loses a lot of value. I thought in Magma Jet as a way to palliate the fact that it's a horrible topdeck, but it's not fine to depend on a card to make another less bad... Also I'm not very happy with Magma Jet at the moment. IMO 2 damages for 2 manas is very poor considering the current speed of the format, and the scry ability hasn't too much interest until you have 3 or 4 lands.

What I have quite clear is that I want another one drop creature apart from Guides. One drop creatures can have a big impact in the game, and I often have to keep one land hands. I've also tested Mogg Fanatic instead of Stromkirk Noble but my conclusion is that both of them are quite far of FOD's quality.

My “problem” is that I don't like the interaction between FOD and Keldon/Hellspark. I generally want to play Keldon or Hellspark the soon as possible to have more chance of not finding opposition. The problem is that we also want to pump FOD in second turn. I believe that the problem is more with FOD/Hellspark, because on the contrary, Keldon can have value as a blocker after the first turns. Also against combo, FOD and Keldon don't work great together, as we want to pump FOD in second turn and Keldon needs 3 turns to make 5 damages. My question is: Is all of that meaningful enough to justify running a worse one drop than FOD (Mogg or Noble) just because they fit better with the rest of our creatures? I guess that the response is no, but I'd like to know your opinion. Also in real game, most of the things said above don't have value (for example FOD can be countered or be boarded out).

[jares]

After some testing with Stromkirk Noble, I'd say that it is not definitely great in Legacy but it's not too bad. It's a nice first turn drop but after that it loses a lot of value. I thought in Magma Jet as a way to palliate the fact that it's a horrible topdeck, but it's not fine to depend on a card to make another less bad... Also I'm not very happy with Magma Jet at the moment. IMO 2 damages for 2 manas is very poor considering the current speed of the format, and the scry ability hasn't too much interest until you have 3 or 4 lands.

What I have quite clear is that I want another one drop creature apart from Guides. One drop creatures can have a big impact in the game, and I often have to keep one land hands. I've also tested Mogg Fanatic instead of Stromkirk Noble but my conclusion is that both of them are quite far of FOD's quality.

My “problem” is that I don't like the interaction between FOD and Keldon/Hellspark. I generally want to play Keldon or Hellspark the soon as possible to have more chance of not finding opposition. The problem is that we also want to pump FOD in second turn. I believe that the problem is more with FOD/Hellspark, because on the contrary, Keldon can have value as a blocker after the first turns. Also against combo, FOD and Keldon don't work great together, as we want to pump FOD in second turn and Keldon needs 3 turns to make 5 damages. My question is: Is all of that meaningful enough to justify running a worse one drop than FOD (Mogg or Noble) just because they fit better with the rest of our creatures? I guess that the response is no, but I'd like to know your opinion. Also in real game, most of the things said above don't have value (for example FOD can be countered or be boarded out).In the search for that one-drop to pair with Goblin Guide, you might also want to retest Grim Lavamancer. This creature is a powerhouse, and has proven to have been effective in the past. For Burn, though, the extensive use of Fetchlands is almost necessary in wielding Grim Lavamancer, which also benefits the deck via deck-thinning, but also exposes the manabase to Stifle. It seems, though, that the current meta does not favor this creature too well.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Dewin]

Yes, Guide, FOD and Grim are a great set. I believe that that kind of list (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21541_StarCityGamescom_Open_LA_Legacy_Burn_Report.html) is the most powerful as it runs the most quality red spells. But I agree that it's not well positioned in the metagame as tribal (Grim Lavamancer) and Zoo (Searing Blaze) have lost importance, and Canadian on the contrary is now a Deck to Beat (Fetchlands-Stifle). So I'm trying to build a Burn deck without fetches.

About the creatures, now I'm gonna try with 4 Guide 4 FOD and 4 Keldon despite what I said in my last post. My main doubts are about Barbarian Ring and Flame Rift.

Despite I'm gonna try with 4 FOD I think I will need some tool to avoid mana flooded. So I guess that I have to choose between Magma Jet or Barbarian Ring and I'm not conviced about none of them xD What would you choose?

About Flame Rift I think that it's pretty bad against Canadian and UR Burn so I think that Incinerate or Magma Jet would be a better choice for the current metagame. What do you think? Also I'd like to have Sulfuric Vortex in my side and I guess that it's not great to mix it with Flame Rift. Would you try to avoid having Flame Rift and Vortex in the same list?

[jares]

Yes, Guide, FOD and Grim are a great set. I believe that that kind of list (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21541_StarCityGamescom_Open_LA_Legacy_Burn_Report.html) is the most powerful as it runs the most quality red spells. But I agree that it's not well positioned in the metagame as tribal (Grim Lavamancer) and Zoo (Searing Blaze) have lost importance, and Canadian on the contrary is now a Deck to Beat (Fetchlands-Stifle). So I'm trying to build a Burn deck without fetches.

About the creatures, now I'm gonna try with 4 Guide 4 FOD and 4 Keldon despite what I said in my last post. My main doubts are about Barbarian Ring and Flame Rift.

Despite I'm gonna try with 4 FOD I think I will need some tool to avoid mana flooded. So I guess that I have to choose between Magma Jet or Barbarian Ring and I'm not convinced about none of them xD What would you choose?

About Flame Rift I think that it's pretty bad against Canadian and UR Burn so I think that Incinerate or Magma Jet would be a better choice for the current metagame. What do you think? Also I'd like to have Sulfuric Vortex in my side and I guess that it's not great to mix it with Flame Rift. Would you try to avoid having Flame Rift and Vortex in the same list?
If you were choosing between Magma Jet and Barbarian Ring, I'd definitely choose the Ring, simply because it essentially does not cost you card space (as it only takes out the Mountain slots). The extra damage is worth taking for the benefit of having more room for more efficient burn spells (and you'll also be taking that much damage via Fetchlands anyway). The fact that the Ring is uncounterable (unless it's Stifled of course) might also save you a few games.

Truth is, I personally don't mind taking damage, especially if it means that I'll also able to maximize the damage that my opponents take - I'll likely be able to outrun them in the damage game anyway. If it's a choice between Incinerate, Magma Jet, or Flame Rift, I would still definitely choose Flame Rift. I have considered Magma Jet in the past, but only as a 2-of at most, given that you don't really want to play it early on, and you won't want to play multiples of it in the course of the game. I guess I would also consider some balance between Flame Rift and Magma Jet for the available slots.

If I were to play Burn now, I would definitely play some variation of the list that won the last 2 SCG tournaments - aside from the fact that this list has been proven, the cards in the list are also very solid, but also leave some room for some possible improvements/variations. I've been testing Spark Elemental recently, but I haven't been able to conclude anything so far. It's been fun though :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

[Dewin]

I have considered Magma Jet in the past, but only as a 2-of at most, given that you don't really want to play it early on, and you won't want to play multiples of it in the course of the game. I guess I would also consider some balance between Flame Rift and Magma Jet for the available slots. I agree. I've had problems drawing multiples Jets. Definetely, I'm gonna try with Barbarian Ring leaving the Jets. IMO if you run FOD and Barbarian Ring, Magma Jet isn't worth.

About the lands, just 19 looks a little tight for FOD and Sulfuric Vortex. Maybe I'll end trying a third Barbarian Ring (17/3) or cutting one FOD.

About Flame Rift I'm gonna try those slots with Incinerate as I have Sulfuric Vortex in side at the moment, and as I said, I believe that Flame Rift can be problematic against Canadian and UR Burn.

[Dewin]

I've some doubts about Sulfuric Vortex and Barbarian Ring. Vortex is a little hard to cast playing 19 lands and it's even harder if some of those lands are Barbarian Rings, as Maverick runs Wasteland. You can play around Waste but it's not always that simple.

So I don't know if I should choose between Ring and Vortex (in side). Maybe that's too drastic… Any advice? I think that it would be a shame not playing such a powerful card in the current meta as Vortex, but a powerful card can be turned into poor if you aren't going to be able to cast it properly. Maybe I should return to a build with Jets and no Rings, as Jets on the contrary can even help to find a third land if needed.

About the sideboard I've found that Faerie Macabre is really great against Reanimator but I haven't experience with it against Dredge. I don't mind that it is worse than Tormod against Dredge. My problem is that I'm not even sure if it's worth boarding it against Dredge. Have you tried Faerie against Dredge? Maybe should I start thinking about Grafdigger's Cage?

[jares]

I've some doubts about Sulfuric Vortex and Barbarian Ring. Vortex is a little hard to cast playing 19 lands and it's even harder if some of those lands are Barbarian Rings, as Maverick runs Wasteland. You can play around Waste but it's not always that simple.

So I don't know if I should choose between Ring and Vortex (in side). Maybe that's too drastic… Any advice? I think that it would be a shame not playing such a powerful card in the current meta as Vortex, but a powerful card can be turned into poor if you aren't going to be able to cast it properly. Maybe I should return to a build with Jets and no Rings, as Jets on the contrary can even help to find a third land if needed.

About the sideboard I've found that Faerie Macabre is really great against Reanimator but I haven't experience with it against Dredge. I don't mind that it is worse than Tormod against Dredge. My problem is that I'm not even sure if it's worth boarding it against Dredge. Have you tried Faerie against Dredge? Maybe should I start thinking about Grafdigger's Cage?
This is what I would do regarding Sulfuric Vortex and Barbarian Ring:

Run 20 lands, 2 being Barbarian Ring - only two (three at most), becase you don't really want to draw into it early or in multiples.
Run 3 Sulfuric Vortex (for the same reason that you don't want to draw into it early, or in multiples), or maybe 2 MD and 1 in the SB.

I don't believe I've mentioned it before, but I'm primarily a Dredge player over being a Burn player. Having said that, I know that I would have more trouble if you were to use a Crypt or a Relic, or even Surgical Extraction - but I also know that a timely Faerie Macabre can be just as effective against me.

Faerie Macabre is definitely better against Reanimator, but will require a lot more thinking against Dredge for it to be as effective. It's also worth noting that the builds that have been winning recently have a natural defense against Dredge in the form of "naturally dying creatures" :laugh:, so you might want to consider that too.

Cheers,
jares

[Dewin]

About Vortex it is truth that more than one on play hasn't too much interest. But also many times the first one would be countered or it could be removed by Qasalis against Maverick. On the other hand, if u were a little mana screwed, multiples Vortex in hand would be really problematic. So yes, I think that 3 may be the correct number. On the Rings, I also agree that 3 of them neither look great.

Concerning Dredge, I'll keep trying with the Faeries in side. If Dredge gained more relevance than Reanimator, I'd probably switch them to Grafdigger's Cage.

At the moment I have returned to a list without Rings:

19 Mountain
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Goblin Guide
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre

I had one free slot in the sideboard and I've finally filled it with a Volcanic Fallout despite the fact that it's another 3 cost… xD Fallout doesn't look great in the current metagame (no tribal) but still has value against Maverick and Dredge.

I think that it is a well prepared list against the 3 most important decks:

Maverick: I have 6 cards in side against life gaining/equipments
RUG: I don't run Barbarian, neither Flame Rift that both look a little problematic in this mathup. On the contrary I guess that Keldon and Hellspark are strong here.
Blade: I would board almost my entire side… xD

I “sacrifice” the storm matchup as I think that, even with Pyrostatic Pillar or Mindbreak Trap, there aren't too much options to win anyway.

[JJ-JKidd]

What's the deck's solution to a resolved Leyline of Sanctity? And which is better to stop COP/protection-effects Everlasting Torment or Pithing Needle?

Thanks!

[Greatest Gargadon]

What's the deck's solution to a resolved Leyline of Sanctity? And which is better to stop COP/protection-effects Everlasting Torment or Pithing Needle?

Thanks!

Doesn't Sulfuric Vortex help against protection effects? On top of that, it also deals damage to them.
As for Leyline of Sanctity, I read of some people using Chaos warp but I imagine it would just slow us own while they find it again.

[JJ-JKidd]

Doesn't Sulfuric Vortex help against protection effects? On top of that, it also deals damage to them.
As for Leyline of Sanctity, I read of some people using Chaos warp but I imagine it would just slow us own while they find it again.

Vortex does not prevent them from using COP : Red. Torment reads "damage can't be prevented."

[jares]

What's the deck's solution to a resolved Leyline of Sanctity? And which is better to stop COP/protection-effects Everlasting Torment or Pithing Needle?

Thanks!
Personally, I wouldn't really bother addressing either (Leyline of Sanctity or COP/protection-effects), as this would really just be wasted sideboard space in my opinion (assuming that the we're talking about the current meta) - it would likely be worthwhile to address something else in those slots. In my experience, having creatures to do some beat-down pretty much solves Leyline of Sanctity, as you can then use your burn as removal while playing a Sligh-centric strategy (I've even boarded-in Vexing Shusher against decks without counterspells so that they could do the beat-down for me! And it worked! haha :laugh:). As for addressing damage prevention, Everlasting Torment would probably be a good choice, though having the need to do so is probably very rare. I can't think of a damage-prevention card that's frequently used in Legacy other than Mother of Runes (and that's just for creatures).

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Izor]

Wouldn't Leyline of Punishment be strictly better than Everlasting Torment?

[jares]

Wouldn't Leyline of Punishment be strictly better than Everlasting Torment?
Leyline of Punishment is probably better, but I personally try to avoid playing Leylines whenever possible :tongue:.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Burn placed 2nd in another SCG Legacy Open:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44236

Interesting choice of sideboard cards too. I personally like the inclusion of Leyline of the Void.

Cheers,
jares

[conankudo4]

Burn placed 2nd in another SCG Legacy Open:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44236

Interesting choice of sideboard cards too. I personally like the inclusion of Leyline of the Void.

Cheers,
jares

I used to run Void in the SB; it's honestly very clunky at best. If you happen to get it in your opening hand (or on a mull to 6), then everything's fine and wonderful. However, if you don't, you now have 4 very, very dead cards in your deck (which you're likely to draw over a real burn spell). IMO, Tormod's Crypt is more skill dependent, but does exactly what you need it to, and isn't a dead draw when you topdeck it.

[jares]

I used to run Void in the SB; it's honestly very clunky at best. If you happen to get it in your opening hand (or on a mull to 6), then everything's fine and wonderful. However, if you don't, you now have 4 very, very dead cards in your deck (which you're likely to draw over a real burn spell). IMO, Tormod's Crypt is more skill dependent, but does exactly what you need it to, and isn't a dead draw when you topdeck it.
I certainly agree that Tormod's Crypt is much more skill-dependent, simply because of the Nature of all Leylines. I personally use a 2-2 split between Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt. It's worth considering, though, that going all-in with Leyline of the Void might be our best chance against the graveyard-centric decks (e.g. Reanimator, Dredge).

I guess that we could possibly simplify it this way:

What are our chances of beating Reanimator and Dredge if we were keep an opening hand without graveyard hate? I believe that the answer to that is "slim" (given Iona, Shield of Emeria on Turn 2 for Reanimator, or FKZ + Zombies on Turn 2 for Dredge).
If we were to insist on having hate in our opening hand, then I don't think that there's a better choice for hate other than Leyline of the Void.

Of course, not all of us will prefer banking on "luck" (the better term might be "probability") when going against these match-ups.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Vacrix]

Burn placed 2nd in another SCG Legacy Open:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44236

Interesting choice of sideboard cards too. I personally like the inclusion of Leyline of the Void.

Cheers,
jares
Why does he play Reroute? I'd think more artifact destruction would have been way better.

[jares]

Why does he play Reroute? I'd think more artifact destruction would have been way better.
I honestly don't know. I can't think of something specific that would make Reroute worth boarding-in...

Anyone else with an idea for this sideboard choice?

Kind Regards,
jares

[Suneloon]

I honestly don't know. I can't think of something specific that would make Reroute worth boarding-in...

Anyone else with an idea for this sideboard choice?

Kind Regards,
jares

Grindstone? Belcher?

[jares]

Grindstone? Belcher?
There you go :tongue:

Thanks! Could there possibly anything else?

Cheers,
jares

[joey223]

top, relic,crypt, stoneforge mystic, snapcaster mage.

there are a lot of targets for it.

playing it would take a lot of people by surprise.

[Vacrix]

SFM has a triggered ability and thats what you really care about there. Snapcaster Mage is also a triggered ability and it only 'Reroutes' activated abilities. This deck also doesn't need to deal with graveyard hate at all. Grindstone and Belcher are the only ones and Grindstone doesn't really kill often on turn 4 and thats when you are gold fishing them anyway. Belcher drops its 6/7 on turn 1 and they're win conditions is more likely than not going to be EtW/Burning Wish, a 7/11 ratio.

He was basically playing with a 13 card sideboard. Also, Leyline of the Void might be an interesting SB choice but both Ichorid and Reanimator can kill you before turn 3. Mulliganing into oblivion for it is obviously not a consistent option if you want to race them. I think Relics or Crypts would have been a way better choice here. It looks like he threw together his SB at the last minute if you ask me.

[joey223]

SFM has a triggered ability and thats what you really care about there. Snapcaster Mage is also a triggered ability and it only 'Reroutes' activated abilities.

i stand corrected.

thanks.

[jares]

SFM has a triggered ability and thats what you really care about there. Snapcaster Mage is also a triggered ability and it only 'Reroutes' activated abilities. This deck also doesn't need to deal with graveyard hate at all. Grindstone and Belcher are the only ones and Grindstone doesn't really kill often on turn 4 and thats when you are gold fishing them anyway. Belcher drops its 6/7 on turn 1 and they're win conditions is more likely than not going to be EtW/Burning Wish, a 7/11 ratio.

He was basically playing with a 13 card sideboard. Also, Leyline of the Void might be an interesting SB choice but both Ichorid and Reanimator can kill you before turn 3. Mulliganing into oblivion for it is obviously not a consistent option if you want to race them. I think Relics or Crypts would have been a way better choice here. It looks like he threw together his SB at the last minute if you ask me.
It does look like the Reroutes were unwise sideboard slots. I still can't think of a justification for it.

Regarding the considerations vs. Reanimator/Dredge, I would like to ask of it is likely for us to keep an opening hand without game-changing hate in it (i.e. how often would we be able to keep an opening hand that would allow us to win, even without graveyard hate?).

Kind Regards,
jares

[Vacrix]

A solid Burn hand can sometimes race Dredge and Reanimator by turn 3. I played against my friends Burn deck a while back and he was pretty consistently gold fishing me on turn 3. So Burn is still a threat to those decks, especially if Burn wins the coin toss. I'd say you don't mulligan for hate with Burn because half of your creatures disappear after you play them. Unless you get a couple Goblin Guides online with your hate, I think its better to hope you topdeck the hate and keep your opening 7 and try to shoot for the turn 3 against those matchups (that is if you only play 4 Leyline). Or just play 7-8 Relic/Crypt since Ichorid and Reanimator are favored here. Granted Hellspark Elementals and Marauders get rid of Bridges but thats on turn 2 or 3 by the time they've already won or produced a winning position.

[jares]

A solid Burn hand can sometimes race Dredge and Reanimator by turn 3. I played against my friends Burn deck a while back and he was pretty consistently gold fishing me on turn 3. So Burn is still a threat to those decks, especially if Burn wins the coin toss. I'd say you don't mulligan for hate with Burn because half of your creatures disappear after you play them. Unless you get a couple Goblin Guides online with your hate, I think its better to hope you topdeck the hate and keep your opening 7 and try to shoot for the turn 3 against those matchups (that is if you only play 4 Leyline). Or just play 7-8 Relic/Crypt since Ichorid and Reanimator are favored here. Granted Hellspark Elementals and Marauders get rid of Bridges but thats on turn 2 or 3 by the time they've already won or produced a winning position.
I would like for us to quantify the value of what you're referring to as "sometimes", as that will help us determine if that value is greater than the probability of getting graveyard hate in the opening hand (also considering the probability that your opponent can draw an answer to the hate). I'll try to post some figures when I have the time.

You are correct in stating that Turn-3 is Burn's Fundamental Turn, but take note that Reanimator's Fundamental Turn against us is Turn-2 (via Iona, Shield of Emeria; Mono-Black Reanimator has it at Turn-1), and LED Dredge's Fundamental Turn is Turn-1. Based on these facts, it's obvious to me that racing these decks is not the wisest thing to do, simply because they have the upper hand in terms of speed.

In addition, note that both these decks have built-in disruption against us in the form of counterspells (Daze, Force of Will) and discard (Cabal Therapy) - we normally don't have built-in disruption vs. Reanimator, while our dying creatures can help against Dredge a bit (somewhat minimally, given that these creatures die at sorcery speed unless we waste our spells to kill them, in addition to the points that you've already noted).

In summary, I don't think it's difficult to see that it's more likely for Burn to lose to Reanimator and Dredge if we were to race them. We're more likely to win if we were to depend on our graveyard hate - and the probability of "top-decking" your hate is much smaller when compared to actually opting to mulligan for it. I'll try to post some numbers for these too, just in case anyone else might remain skeptical.

Kind Regards,
jares

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I play test against Dredge a lot. my best friend runs it exclusively. With sideboard in, if I do not open with hate, it is 75% auto lose. the fact that a few of our creatures die, is almost irrelevant, since they both die on our own turn. Dredge doesnt care about our turn. they only need two Bridges, and normally only need to be able to draw(dredge) three cards to go off. once, they set up... on their first turn, their second turn is lethal more often than not.


my favorite grave hate is, 3 Faerie Macabre 1 Surgical Extraction. I dont like 2 and 2, and I want to have more Macabre than Surgical.

Macabre cannot be countered, I would rather try and fight off a Stifle than any of the 8-12 counterspell decks that some gravebased decks use. against Reanimator Macabre is more than enough. against Dredge, adding the fact that we can tag our own creatures, along with the Macabre, is usually all I need.

[NeoTech]

Faerie Macabre really seems to be the ideal solution. They only have the option of Stifling the discard ability, which is unlikely unless they board it in. The advantages would be it is un-counterable unlike Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus which is the ideal use of Reanimator's Force of Will.

I suppose the large disadvantage is you don't want to only get rid of Iona, Shield of Emeria in the long run, but also Empyrial Archangel and Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Which would make Leyline the ideal choice. But Leyline is very fragile to Echoing Truch and Wipe away or any bounce spell. I only hate Leyline because if it isn't an opening card its a dead draw and Burn cannot afford to have dead draws.

Its a difficult choice honestly... I think I may dedicate an additional slot or two to graveyard hate, maybe Surgical Extraction?

[Pinoy Goblin]

Sup guys I have been running Austin Yost's decklist and all I can say that it is NUTS!!!:tongue::tongue::tongue: Anyways, just a quick question has anyone tried faithless looting as a 2-3 off in the burn list? It has synergy with hellspark and barbarian ring and we need those draws to have fresh new hands, I have tested this deck and sometimes you get mana flood top draws in the midgame when you need burn spells badly to finish your oponent off. Tnks for your thoughts and opinion on this one.

NOTE: I dont like using magma jet - it is slow and cost 2 red manas and only puts your chosen card on top of the library unlike looting cards you chose is in your hand.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Faithless Looting (I believe) has no place in the deck.
You do not need to discard cards at any point, so the drawing ability isnt worth it.
a top deck Looting does nothing for you.
at best all it would do is fix a situation. if you have a few dead spells, maybe extra lands, and what have you, you can exchange cards, but really, those situations are not that bad.
If you were going to run Looting you would do so because you want to fix those situations, and Sensei's Divining Top is infinitely better (in my opinion).

[jares]

Faithless Looting (I believe) has no place in the deck.
You do not need to discard cards at any point, so the drawing ability isnt worth it.
a top deck Looting does nothing for you.
at best all it would do is fix a situation. if you have a few dead spells, maybe extra lands, and what have you, you can exchange cards, but really, those situations are not that bad.
If you were going to run Looting you would do so because you want to fix those situations, and Sensei's Divining Top is infinitely better (in my opinion).
I agree with the point where Faithless Looting does not fit with the Burn game plan. Think about it this way: if Faithless Looting is there to "filter" the dead cards you have in hand (which may or may not be there), wouldn't another burn spell in its place have achieved the same thing in searching for a non-dead card? On top of that, you also spent one mana to do something unnecessary, which will likely cost you the game given that Burn is highly affected by the Tempo of a game.

The minor synergy with Barbarian Ring and Hellspark Elemental helps ease the rough edges of how Faithless Looting wants to fit with the deck, but take note that these points aren't really part of the Major Game Plan of what Burn tries to achieve as an archetype. As a deck that is designed based on a hyper-linear strategy, we can't afford to be sidetracked by these minor details.

For future reference, kindly note that these points have already been discussed in this forum, and it would be beneficial to do some back-reading whenever possible.

Kind Regards,
jares

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I have a two card slot open in my deck. I currently run two Sulfuric Vortex. I do not like the card. It wins games where it should, but it also loses me games where I should.
It is extremely effective against Batterskull, as usual the life gain kills us.
I could care less about taking 4-5 damage a turn. That is 4-5 turns of damage, a turn after they cast the card. If I cannot win in that time then I have no business winning that game anyway.

Other than that though, the card just has problems. It is slow, costs 3 (which being a lifelong Pox player I never thought a 3 casting cost card would make me so upset, but it does.)

I run pretty close to the same list everyone else does. Although I do 4 of Hellspark and Marauders, I also run a tandem Lavamancer.
The real main difference is I do not run Flamerift, I wont argue about it, there are two types of Burn players. Players for or against Flamerift. I just do not like dealing myself 4 damage. It is not necessary, plus I believe it helps me in the mirror.

Magma Jet is no option, neither is Incinerate, or Shock.
I was actually honestly thinking of Mogg Fanatic. a One drop, that kills of an unflipped Delver, Nobel Hierarchic, Hellspark, Birds of Paradise, any Elf, all of which need to be dealt with, and it saves big Burn. But in thinking this way, I am not sure if I am just over thinking it. And in turn missing just running more effective Burn, but that is the problem, removing the non options I listed, I cannot think of any other effective Burn.

Maybe I should just run a 2 of Flame Rift.

[wert]

I love Sulfuric Vortex. It is clunky, yes but it does help to win games that we normally can't win. It is not a card that you want to have multiples of in the first 7 but it isn't a dead card on draw. It stacks so 4 damage a turn is hell of a clock.

I started with 2 Flame Rifts but now I play the whole set. I don't like Flame Rift before and now I am still not its biggest fan. It is however confirmed 4 damage for 2 mana, assuming no counters. Like Sulfuric Vortex, it does get us through a Leyline. Contrast with Marauders, with is confirmed 2 and max 5 damage for 2 mana. I would say it is decent.

Mogg Fanatic : NO WAY. Not interested in killing creatures, not unless it is going to kill me. I, however maindeck another rather clunky card: Volcanic Fallout to deal with those pesky tribals and delvers, etc.


//Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Keldon Marauders

//Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
2 Volcanic Fallout

//Sorcery
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift

//Enchantment
2 Sulfuric Vortex

//Lands
17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

//Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 Chaos Warp
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Comments, thoughts and criticisms the most needed.

[jares]

I believe that Sulfuric Vortex goes in the slots that you save for meta choices, as it's a selectively good card (like all meta choices). The same goes for Volcanic Fallout.

I find that playing Grim Lavamancer alongside Hellspark Elemental causes some awkward inconsistencies, much more awkward than the Hellspark Elemental + Barbarian Ring awkwardness :tongue:.

Flame Rift is also the weakest card on my list, but given what's available, there aren't really other alternatives that are clearly "better". Of course, it really still depends on how you plan to construct your deck, and also on the meta that you'll be playing against. Personally, though, I don't mind dealing damage to myself - after all, I AM the Burn player, and the opponent will likely be more concerned about his life total than mine :laugh:. Also, contrary to what might look obvious, the card actually helps when you and your opponent are racing for damage - of course, you play it as your finishing card, otherwise, you're obviously just helping your opponent :tongue:.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Has anyone here done some serious testing for Spark Elemental? I've been reconsidering it as a faster Hellspark Elemental, but without the card advantage. I'm currently unsure of what to make of it though, probably because of the lack of testing.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Pinoy Goblin]

Has anyone here done some serious testing for Spark Elemental? I've been reconsidering it as a faster Hellspark Elemental, but without the card advantage. I'm currently unsure of what to make of it though, probably because of the lack of testing.

Kind Regards,
jares

I tested spark elemental jares and all I can say is that it is only good on your first turn with the opponent having no blockers . . . its like a second rate bolt except that it is a creature that is far more worse :frown:, imagine drawing it on your mid game and opponent has a 4/5 goyf or a 7/7 kotr. . . . i rather have a top draw spell (bolt) and cast it in his face:laugh: hmmm....maybe lightning serpent is better but i haven't tested it yet.

Kindly yours,
Pinoy Goblin

[tesla]

I tested spark elemental jares and all I can say is that it is only good on your first turn with the opponent having no blockers . . . its like a second rate bolt except that it is a creature that is far more worse :frown:, imagine drawing it on your mid game and opponent has a 4/5 goyf or a 7/7 kotr. . . . i rather have a top draw spell (bolt) and cast it in his face:laugh: hmmm....maybe lightning serpent is better but i haven't tested it yet.

Kindly yours,
Pinoy Goblin

well topdecking hellspark or guide would be the same in that situation. i belive jares means spark instead of hellspark not instead of any instant/sorcery damage.
my opinion is no. hellspark is better. i prefer card advantage before speed. not generaly but definitely in this case.

[Pinoy Goblin]

well topdecking hellspark or guide would be the same in that situation. i belive jares means spark instead of hellspark not instead of any instant/sorcery damage.
my opinion is no. hellspark is better. i prefer card advantage before speed. not generaly but definitely in this case.

thanks bro for the correction:smile: well on the other hand given the situation topdecking guide is much more better cause you have the option not to attack it and use it as a blocker :smile: and I agree with you 101% that hellspark is better than spark because of its unearth ability :smile:

Kindly yours,
Pinoy Goblin

[jares]

thanks bro for the correction:smile: well on the other hand given the situation topdecking guide is much more better cause you have the option not to attack it and use it as a blocker :smile: and I agree with you 101% that hellspark is better than spark because of its unearth ability :smile:

Kindly yours,
Pinoy Goblin
I guess that, given that Burn does have the weakness of running out of gas from time to time, Hellspark Elemental does provide the needed card advantage. I'm still having a problem with the idea of dealing an unguaranteed 3 damage for 2 mana, though, so I'll need to do some testing to see for myself.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Burn again got represented (twice) in the Top 16 of a tournament:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2012-03-04&end_date=2012-03-04&city=Tampa

I find that both lists have something interesting in them - one having a lot of creatures built-in, and one having Sulfuric Vortex in the main deck.

It seems that Hellspark Elemental is fitting well in the current meta.

Cheers,
jares

[Malakai]

thanks bro for the correction:smile: well on the other hand given the situation topdecking guide is much more better cause you have the option not to attack it and use it as a blocker :smile: and I agree with you 101% that hellspark is better than spark because of its unearth ability :smile:

Kindly yours,
Pinoy Goblin

If you really "preferred card advantage" you wouldn't even run Hellspark Elemental, let alone your burn spells. This is not the correct criteria for selecting cards for this deck.

[jares]

If you really "preferred card advantage" you wouldn't even run Hellspark Elemental, let alone your burn spells. This is not the correct criteria for selecting cards for this deck.
What would be the correct criteria then?

Regards,
jares

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I am not really accepting of decks that we have a hard time beating game one.
Reanimator being one, Dredge being another, and storm decks being the others.

Reanimator and storm are almost impossible first game. I dont care that we have a 3 turn clock, because that is only in goldfish mode against no disruption, it is also not common 4th turn is common 5th turn is almost 85%. we have no disruption for Reanimator, or storm game one. and there clock for wining or gaining overwhelming board advantage is turn 2, turn 3 definitely unless they just get screwed.

Dredge isnt easy, its not even 50-50. It is possible game one, and even though it is not easy, it also really is not hard.

there has to be a way to add something to stop these decks, that wont hinder our chemistry within the deck.

I have been thinking of main decking Mcabre, there is enough in the field that it could effect. Lands, decks with snapcaster, all the dredge-storm-reanimator decks. Welder MUD, maverick(slightly)-or any deck using Knight of the Reliquary shells.

I know I have slots I could get rid of.

I just hate accepting that these decks are tough matchups. giving a deck that is hard to beat a one game lead, with hopes that a few sideboard cards can get you two in a row is ridiculousness.

Mcabre is card that can win you the game, I would hate to top deck it, but it also wont lose you a game against every other deck that we can handle easily, it also wont make those matchups harder at all. But it would give you game one against the decks we cant handle. then adding more sideboard in, only betters the odds.

[jares]

I am not really accepting of decks that we have a hard time beating game one.
Reanimator being one, Dredge being another, and storm decks being the others.

Reanimator and storm are almost impossible first game. I dont care that we have a 3 turn clock, because that is only in goldfish mode against no disruption, it is also not common 4th turn is common 5th turn is almost 85%. we have no disruption for Reanimator, or storm game one. and there clock for wining or gaining overwhelming board advantage is turn 2, turn 3 definitely unless they just get screwed.

Dredge isnt easy, its not even 50-50. It is possible game one, and even though it is not easy, it also really is not hard.

there has to be a way to add something to stop these decks, that wont hinder our chemistry within the deck.

I have been thinking of main decking Mcabre, there is enough in the field that it could effect. Lands, decks with snapcaster, all the dredge-storm-reanimator decks. Welder MUD, maverick(slightly)-or any deck using Knight of the Reliquary shells.

I know I have slots I could get rid of.

I just hate accepting that these decks are tough matchups. giving a deck that is hard to beat a one game lead, with hopes that a few sideboard cards can get you two in a row is ridiculousness.

Mcabre is card that can win you the game, I would hate to top deck it, but it also wont lose you a game against every other deck that we can handle easily, it also wont make those matchups harder at all. But it would give you game one against the decks we cant handle. then adding more sideboard in, only betters the odds.
I am sorry, sir, but that's just really how it works. Burn is at a disadvantage versus the decks you've mentioned, just as other decks are also at a disadvantage versus Burn. One Deck can't have it all, because otherwise, everyone would be using THAT DECK.

Burn is one of the most finely-tuned hyper-linear decks that have been established ever since this game came to be. It's designed to be a deck of "questions" not a deck of "answers", if you know what I mean. If you were to insist on forcing an "answer" into the main deck, just keep in mind that the trade-off would be an increased degree of inconsistency to a deck that has historically had problems with "running out of gas". I currently don't have the numbers to illustrate this, but I'm sure that you already get my drift.

I like that you're trying your best to not accept this state of probable defeat against certain decks. Unfortunately, this is an issue that is built into the nature of the deck, and at the end of the day, we will always have the sideboard to help us with our weaknesses, and it will probably be worth our while to instead explore how we can develop our sideboards to help the deck be more resilient.

Kind Regards,
jares

p.s. there's one more thing that we can do - pray that something insane gets printed :tongue:.

[RogueBuild]

A friend of mine wanted to play Burn at an upcoming Starcity Open but was having problems with tuning it. For the last 5 weeks we have played nothing but Burn against other people. I played over 500 matches (2/3) myself so I thought I would share a few things.

We started with 1 of the decks that did well at Starcity Tampa which my friend was convinced was the way to go (minus the SB):
Creatures
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Goblin Guide
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders

Instants
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Lands
17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

This build seems fairly typical of what most people at lest on this board seem to be playing. After playing about 150 games this was my conclusion...

Problems:
1) CotV at 1 on turn 1 is game over and any time after turn 1 depends on much later it came.
I don't think this takes any explaining.

2) Enough creatures to make their removal worth having but not enough creatures to be dangerous. And they slow you down.

The problem is GG and FoD. They will give people reasons to keep in removal but cost you more cards to make them useful. This is why: Burn player, on the play, T1, moutain -> GG -> swing -> 2 damage -> end turn. 1 Mana, 1 card, 2 damage. Now if the opponent doesn't play anything you're ok but if he plays any creature you have a choice to make, burn it or not. If you burn it you have now committed an additional card and its damage to clearing the way for the GG to hit 2 more damage, a total of 4 now, but if you just used 2 bolts you would have hit the opponent for 6 at this point. If you don't burn it and instead hit the player for 3 you are resigning to fact that your creature is on his own and might never hit again, which isn't bad, but you are still 1 damage behind where you would be if you used a bolt to begin with. Given as most (not all) people on this thread are focused on killing as fast as possible the GG/FoD conflict with this plan. They require the game go on longer for you to have a payoff.

3) The deck, at its absolute fastest "god draw opening hand" is not fast enough to race and consistently beat combo, re-animator, dredge, or anything gaining life.

If you are playing 1st and don't have to mull, you can deal at 18 damage by your 3rd turn using 9 cards, 19 damage if you sac 2 mountains to a fireblast. This is a game you will win, but we all know it doesn't happen like that often enough for you to count on it. Added to that, your bad match-ups can go off as soon as turn 1 and almost always by turn 4. You can't call yourself a world class sprinter if you your best time in the 40 is 2 seconds slower then the guy with a broken leg. Point being, you can't race with the big boys; don't try.

4) Counter/Top kills you much like CotV and any deck running counters and/or discard (because the end effect is the same, loss of card without dealing damage) also screws you.

I decided to try a burn deck the way I would play it. Mind you, I don't build anything with such a narrow focus. As someone above said "burn doesn't have answers", well, it does have some the way I play it.

This is what I tested for about 350ish games:
Creatures
4 Hellspark Elemental

Instants
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Flame Javelin
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Dead/Gone

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
3 Flamebreak

Enchantment
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Lands
19 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Lava Spike
2 Anarchy
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Runeflare Trap
2 Flame Javelin

I built a Burn deck that allows me to answer most of the things that cased me problems in the 1st stage of testing.

Vortex: stops life gain and deals ongoing damage.

Flamebreak/Volcanic: If you are going to hit yourself with more damage while hitting your opponent you might as well clear the field of most of the creatures too. Since my game plan allows for the expectation that the game goes beyond turn 4 I need ways to clear creatures. These also double as ways to hit someone hiding behind a Leyline.

Smash to Smithereens: Not only is there Jitt and Batterskull but yu will almost always find something to hit with it including Tops (even if it doesn't hit, if you have no other target in game 1 you can set them back a draw), CotV, Trinisphere just to name a few.

Dead/Gone: I don't like Lava Spike, I would sooner run Shock MD then it. Dead/Gone is really in for the Gone side to get rid of a Goyf or other large beast and by myself a turn. This was 1 of the last changes I made to the deck and never really settled on if I liked it or not but it did prove useful a few time and Dead is almost always useful to kill something early on.

Lava Spike: yes, I know, above I said I don't like them, and I don't, but against combo where your only choice is to go as fast as possible what else are you going to use?

Flame Javelin: Due to the reliance on Counterbalance and soft counters other then FoW it is almost uncounterable in today's Legacy as long as you play around Daze like effects. And it hits for 4.

Magma Jet: Since I don't have to win by turn 4 this card is amazing. Avoid unwanted lands and makes sure you get to that 3rd land. You have no card draw so use what you can.

I went from a 65% win rate with the starting deck to 75% with the later version. Now part of it will have to do with just playing a deck more in line with my style of play. And I'm not happy with a 75% win rate and some card slots such as Dead/Gone and Lava Spike I am just not happy with but the adjustments did make a huge improvement in some match-up.

Various Aggro decks like Zoo, Goblins, Faeries, Merfolk all fold to sweepers

I had winning records of 65-70% against typical hard match-ups like Dredge, GWx Mav, Nic Fit, and Delver/Fish like RU decks. Blade Control (in various forms) is about 61% when I looked at my records but didn't seem that bad as I was playing. RUG Tempo also gave a lower then I expected rate of 55% which also didn't feel

At 1 point I had a winning record against Reanimator but I drum that up to luck finding Macabre in the end its all about finding that SB card.

The ABSOLUTE WORST match up was by far Show-n-Tell/Sneak Attack with a 0% win rate and I played 12 matches. There is no 1 card that you can side in and help, it really needs 2 at 4 of each and you can't fit that into the SB or the deck. If I was at a tourney and I see my opponent play Show-n-Tell in game 1 I'ld say nice game and get some lunch before the next round.

Anyway, by adjusting the game plan and my effective clock I was able to increase my overall win rate from 68% at 153 matches to 81% after 357 matches (not counting the 1st 153 matches). If I was going to play at a big tourney this is not the deck I would play but I thought you all might find this info useful... If my friend does well this weekend I'll let you know.

[jares]

This is what I tested for about 350ish games:
Creatures
4 Hellspark Elemental

Instants
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Flame Javelin
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Dead/Gone

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
3 Flamebreak

Enchantment
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Lands
19 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Lava Spike
2 Anarchy
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Runeflare Trap
2 Flame Javelin

Anyway, by adjusting the game plan and my effective clock I was able to increase my overall win rate from 68% at 153 matches to 81% after 357 matches (not counting the 1st 153 matches). If I was going to play at a big tourney this is not the deck I would play but I thought you all might find this info useful... If my friend does well this weekend I'll let you know.
Obviously, this build is VERY different from the Burn decks that we've become accustomed to. It wants to be played in a more tempo-like pace, rather than in the usual rush that cards like Lava Spike and Goblin Guide would certainly prefer. I've noted before that "Burn is a deck of questions", but this build certainly has gone out of its way to abandon that philosophy and provide main deck answers for the archetype's weaknesses.

I'll probably play around with this build to see for myself. It's an interesting take on totally altering the game plan of Burn, though it can definitely be improved further at this point (e.g. We can probably do better than Dead // Gone).

If you would have the chance to test this in a big tourney, do let us know how it goes.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Anfylion]

what about searing blaze? not seen in the lists, and I think it's an excellent response to T1 Hierarch, mom, Llanowar, dryad arbor ... or T2 Stoneforge (into batterskull) or any other blocker to clear the path to our GG.
I use it, and I have won several games because of it
the landfall not think it is a problem, and this one card can answer a threat and continue our strategy

(sorry for my google translate english)

[jares]

what about searing blaze? not seen in the lists, and I think it's an excellent response to T1 Hierarch, mom, Llanowar, dryad arbor ... or T2 Stoneforge (into batterskull) or any other blocker to clear the path to our GG.
I use it, and I have won several games because of it
the landfall not think it is a problem, and this one card can answer a threat and continue our strategy

(sorry for my google translate english)
I've also used Searing Blaze before, and I personally have been pleased with it. Unfortunately, though, the effectiveness of the card decreases when fetch lands and not used, and the builds that have been successful recently have not been using fetch lands.

If you guys have not noticed, this archetype is now in the Decks to Beat section!

Congrats to all that have helped push this deck to the top!

Cheers,
jares

[RogueBuild]

Ya, I just noticed that.
Also noticed Show-n-Tell/Sneak Attack Deck is there too. Which as I mentioned is the 1 deck I can find 0 answer for.

I long ago considered Searing Blaze but since I decided to go without Fetchlands so they got axed.

[jares]

Ya, I just noticed that.
Also noticed Show-n-Tell/Sneak Attack Deck is there too. Which as I mentioned is the 1 deck I can find 0 answer for.

I long ago considered Searing Blaze but since I decided to go without Fetchlands so they got axed.
I'm curious about whether or not this is the first time for Burn to be in the DTB section... :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[RogueBuild]

It has been listed as a Deck to Watch back when we had DTB and DTW but I didn't see anywhere it was listed as a DTB.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I used to try and burn out problem creatures. I realized that doing this, just makes it harder to win.
a few posts ago, someone made mention of turn one Goblin Guide, If the opponent plays a spell on their first turn you have a decision.
what decision?
what creatures can an opponent play that would be problematic to a Guide, on their first turn?
not to mention the only decision you need to make if it is a problematic creature is when to block. I just let my opponent swing away until I need to start worrying about blocking.
attacking with a guide turn one, I only need to cast 6 burn spells to win. Easy. almost guaranteed. (not really, but, really)

[jares]

I used to try and burn out problem creatures. I realized that doing this, just makes it harder to win.
That is correct. Wasting valuable gas on a creature that does not impede your ability to burn an opponent is definitely a step backward. In terms of dealing damage traditionally (in contrast to pulling-off a combo), Burn is one of the fastest, and being sidetracked by addressing a seemingly problematic creature is something to be avoided.

a few posts ago, someone made mention of turn one Goblin Guide, If the opponent plays a spell on their first turn you have a decision.
what decision?
what creatures can an opponent play that would be problematic to a Guide, on their first turn?
not to mention the only decision you need to make if it is a problematic creature is when to block. I just let my opponent swing away until I need to start worrying about blocking.
attacking with a guide turn one, I only need to cast 6 burn spells to win. Easy. almost guaranteed. (not really, but, really)
I think that what was meant by that is that Goblin Guide is an investment that may need to be "supported" by clearing the way for it, and also one that activates your opponent's supposedly dead cards in the form of removal.

I find that, as much as Burn wants to abuse the concept of "virtual card advantage" by running as few permanents as possible, you just cannot say no to what Goblin Guide is able to provide - speed, reliable damage, a warm body that can be useful for several reasons, "peeking", and all for the low low cost of one mana.

Cheers,
jares