Worlds Metagame Predictions

[Bongo]

The title says it all:


1. What metagame do you expect in the Legacy portion of Worlds 2007?

2. Most played deck?

3. Most successful deck (win ratio)?

4. Breakout deck or special tech?

5. Top 8?


---


My predictions:

1. Mostly straight aggro and aggro-control, some combo, almost no control

2. Threshold, red splash

3. Ichorid

4. White Stax and B/G Elves will surprise some people, it will also be interesting to see what Herberholz/Nassif will bring

5. 2 Thresh, 2 Ichorid, 1 Stax, 1 Goblin, 1 Storm Combo, 1 Rogue

[Media314r8]

1. Mostly aggro-control, and fast combo (TES/Belcher/Ichorid), some aggro, some Landstill type decks. Few goblins, and many rogue decks.

2. Threshold

3. Goblins/TES (metagmae isn't hating on either, good chance for a top8, but I predict niether deck will be played much)

4. Deck: I predict many Thresh decks will have upsets due to crystalline elves early on. Tech: Thorn of Amethyst and CB will win many games, and the re-emergance of Enforcer in Thresh will allow it to (possibly) beat goblins.

5.2 Thresh , white splash (SB teeg helps with storm and grave combo while enforcer is bomb in the mirror)
1 Breakfast
1 Landstill
1 Goblin
1 Storm Combo
1 Stompy deck (most likely Dragon or Faerie)
1 Rogue

[Nihil Credo]

1. Little aggro; what there will be of it, will be black-based. Tons of aggro-control, because pros love having options. Some combo, mostly TES or Breakfast (no Belcher or Solidarity). Control will be played by pros who spend more time learning about the format.

2. Counting all variants together, Threshold. Much like Boros in Extended last year, it's a Tier 1 deck with a proactive strategy, and as such a sound choice for people with little experience of the format.

3. The decks that wreck aggro-control: board control, Loam decks, Ichorid. However, it will be hard for them to never face an auto-loss matchup and thus meet the stringent requirements for Top 8.

4. Whatever twist on control Wafo-Tapa pulls together. Some Japanese will also make a cool combo or midrange deck that will be all the rage for two weeks.

5. 2 Threshold, 1 BWGoyf, 2 Landstill, 1 Chalice Aggro, 1 Breakfast, 1 Loam.

[freakish777]

I kind of expect the French players to be bringing Aluren.

Also, predicting a T8 is basically pointless, seeing as how the T8 Legacy decks won't end up in elimination rounds against each other. There won't be any of the typical draws occuring like there would be before the cut to the T8.

Seeing which decks go undefeated through 5 rounds of Legacy play will be more interesting (though less fun to try and predict).


EDIT: Breakout Deck/Tech, something with Pernicious Deed in it.

[Lukas Preuss]

1. What metagame do you expect in the Legacy portion of Worlds 2007?/2. Most played deck?

Mainly Threshold. It's the best deck in the format, one of the most established archetypes and relatively easy to pilot if you're unfamiliar with the format.

Other than that, I expect the other established decks to show up, Goblins, Affinity maybe, Ichorid, Loam, etc.

I believe, that the pros will mostly show up with old established archetypes they already know (like Ichorid, Survival, Loam control, Goblins...) instead of trying something entirely new or playing a relatively unknown deck.

3. Most successful deck (win ratio)?

I have witnessed myself how Ichorid can rip through an unprepared metagame at the Dutch Legacy Champs. If people don't play proper hate, Ichorid will storm the tournament.

4. Breakout deck or special tech?

Illusions/Donate will be back. No, just kidding. I have no idea. Counterbalance will be some good.

5. Top 8?

3 Threshold decks
1 Ichorid
1 Survival/ other Control
1 Goblins (maybe)
2 Random decks

[Illissius]

I'm predicting that the pros are smart, and realize that with Legacy being a (relatively) underdeveloped and underscrutinized format, they can get better mileage out of working on it than the others. This is the freakin' World Championships, so the incentive is definitely there. As such, I'm predicting mad tech.

As for more specific predictions:

- Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Price of Progress, and maybe even Destructive Flow will tear it up.

- People will come prepared with graveyard hate in pretty much every sideboard. Ichorid will flop, as will (to a lesser degree) Breakfast. (This is unless the pros find some amazing new strategy to combat the hate which has eluded everyone else so far, but I doubt it.)

- Storm combo will do badly, because Tarmogoyf will be everywhere, and Tarmogoyf goes very well with other cards which Storm combo hates to see.

- Goblins will gain back some ground in the metagame, but not as much as it has lost.

- Crystalline Elves will see more play than it has (which is approximately none, so this might be a gimme ;).

- People will finally figure out how to best abuse Stifle/Dreadnought, Replenish, and Academy Rector.

- But not Goblin Welder.

- A powerful black-based Loam variant will emerge.

- The best performing archetypes will be control, midrange, and aggro control, followed by aggro, and dedicated combo (not combo control) last.

- The most played colors (in terms of number of decks, not number of cards) will be green, blue, and black (fairly close together), followed by red, and last white. Blue/green and black/green will be the most often paired colors.

- The top eight will include Landstill (possibly a different control deck), Gro/Thresh/Goyf (the name "Threshold" is increasingly inaccurate), Survival with black (and likely Vials), Goblins, 43lands, a red deck with Tombs and Moons, and a B/G(/x) deck that isn't Survival.

Let's see how hard I flop.

[FoolofaTook]

1. What metagame do you expect in the Legacy portion of Worlds 2007?

Mostly aggro-control and anti-control. I'm guessing Goyf and/or Counterbalance/Top will be at the heart of a lot of decks. Combo will be there, but like the Flash Hulk GP it's not the best choice for the meta and the Pros will mostly be playing aggro-control, which is.

2. Most played deck?

Threshold with a heavy red splash and probably Counterbalance/Top in the sideboard. The red splash will be at least 8 direct damage (Bolts and Chain Lightning.)

3. Most successful deck (win ratio)?

No idea.

4. Breakout deck or special tech?

Aether Vial in the anti-control shells, which will be U/W or U/B.

5. Top 8?

No idea.

[atv]

I think many pros will run established decks, they'll prefer decks that they are already somewhat familiar with (Goblins, ********, dredge etc).

I won't predict top 8, the format is not Legacy... and Standard and Draft both contribute to getting there too. I'd like to see one of the returning old players make it tho, be it Budde, Finkel, Maher or someone else.

As for new Deck Tech, I'm curious about what Guillaume Wafo-Tapa, Gabriel Nassif, Mark Herberholz and certain Japanese players will run.

[Versus]

Fuck! I tried to hold back asking a question in this thread and derailing, but this has got me totally confused:


I won't predict top 8, the format is not Legacy... and Standard and Draft both contribute to getting there too.

Are you guys talking about the Thursday/Saturday Legacy side events here or something else altogether? I was planning on attending these, but if you're all telling me pros are gonna be playing I might as well sit my ass at home then trek into the city. I'd have a better chance winning a gun fight with a butter knife. A rusty butter knife, with a broken handle and the peanut butter jar stuck on the end.

If a mod wants to delete this post, maybe he could just PM me the answer? Sorry to be a pain!

[freakish777]

Fuck! I tried to hold back asking a question in this thread and derailing, but this has got me totally confused:



Are you guys talking about the Thursday/Saturday Legacy side events here or something else altogether? I was planning on attending these, but if you're all telling me pros are gonna be playing I might as well sit my ass at home then trek into the city. I'd have a better chance winning a gun fight with a butter knife. A rusty butter knife, with a broken handle and the peanut butter jar stuck on the end.

If a mod wants to delete this post, maybe he could just PM me the answer? Sorry to be a pain!

It's unlikely Pros will drop from Worlds to play in the Legacy side events. Those that do drop to play side events will play in the PTQs (non of which are Legacy). If I'm not mistaken the majority of the pros there will be playing it out to try and help the overall standing of the National Team they're on.\

We're talking about the 5 rounds of Legacy portion of the actual Worlds tournament on Friday.

[TrialByFire]

1. What metagame do you expect in the Legacy portion of Worlds 2007?

Mostly aggro-control and combo, with the better control players sticking to their roots and a few people playing Goblins

2. Most played deck?

Black Thresh

3. Most successful deck (win ratio)?

Goblins - I expect at least two slots to go to the red men.

4. Breakout deck or special tech?

Goblins, there will be a lot more than people expect

5. Top 8?
2 Gobs
2 Thresh
1 Control
3 Breakfast/TES

[Versus]

We're talking about the 5 rounds of Legacy portion of the actual Worlds tournament on Friday.

Oh man, I didn't even realize. I thought Worlds was Standard only hence the confusion. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Kronicler]

I have a very reliable source who has informed me that Luis Scott Vargas (he plays at my local shop) as well as the other pros he rolls with are all planning on playing Enchantress. That's right, the US champ will be rocking Enchantress. I can't want to see Lonelybaritone's reaction when he finds out :-D.

Kronicler

[APriestOfGix]

1. What metagame do you expect in the Legacy portion of Worlds 2007?
Lots of Aggro, and Aggro Control. Combo will not be very popular because many people with little knowledge of the format will be playing, and combo takes the longest time to just learn, much less learn to play correctly. Also pro's don't like to take risks, and combo is a risk.


2. Most played deck?
Threshold or other control/aggro-control, Basically Threshold or Landstill.


3. Most successful deck (win ratio)?
Board Control deck, maybe Stax?


4. Breakout deck or special tech?
So combo or survival deck.


5. Top 8?
5 Aggro-Control, 2 Control 1 Random.

[Happy Gilmore]

I'm constantly surprised by what decks show up at tournaments like this. And I think because standing are so important to so many individuals in the Tournament we will not neccessarily the best of the best but very well tuned decks that are designed to fight a wide open meta.

I'm expecting decks like loam to be popular amoung many pros as well as Threshold. The players with more time to test the format may opt for some sort of control deck.

What I'm hoping for is some new innovation from the players who are hoping to take advantage of the inigma of Legacy to raise thier standings durring the tournament. I'm looking at Fujita in particular, his deck designs are unbelievably well thought out and innovative.

[Zach Tartell]

All I'm really hoping for is a top 8 that doesn't have like 4 slots of Threshhold. I don't even care if it's like... 7 Goblins decks and something rouge-ish. I want more innovation for the format, not just something that reenforces what we already know.

Seriously, we all know that thresh is good. Now give us something awesome to think about.

[center425]

MizzVault will break out.

[Tacosnape]

My prediction:

3 UGR Threshold
2 UGW Threshold
1 UGB Threshold
1 UGWR Threshold
1 UG Threshold

[xsockmonkeyx]

My prediction:

3 UGR Threshold
2 UGW Threshold
1 UGB Threshold
1 UGWRB Threshold
1 UG Threshold

Fixt.

[wh33lz]

I predict a countersliver deck and a UGw thresh deck to go undefeated in the legacy portions.

[Aggro_zombies]

I have a very reliable source who has informed me that Luis Scott Vargas (he plays at my local shop) as well as the other pros he rolls with are all planning on playing Enchantress. That's right, the US champ will be rocking Enchantress. I can't want to see Lonelybaritone's reaction when he finds out :-D.

Kronicler
When did you find this out? Also, which dude is he again? I can never keep those guys straight...

[Ophidian]

When did you find this out? Also, which dude is he again? I can never keep those guys straight...


I have a friend that playtests with LSV, I'll try and get confirmation tonight

[Silverdragon]

Also, which dude is he again? I can never keep those guys straight...

Luis Scott-Vargas winning GP San Francisco
http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/images/gpsf07/daChamp.jpg

Paul Cheon winning GP Krakow
http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/images/gpkra07/paul_cheon-winner.jpg

As for the actual metagame prediction I'd say we'll have 2 camps. One camp will only want to have a solid record in Legacy hoping to draw in the last 1-2 rounds on the back of a good Limited and Standard performance. On the other side we'll have the guys who hope to sweep Legacy to rescue an average run in the other formats. The former will most likely play Threshold, the latter will play Stormcombo. Between these 2 extremes there'll of course be people who treat Legacy just like the other formats and are looking for a strong result without gambling. These will take whatever they are most comfortable with. I'd say these folks mostly go with Landstill, Aluren or some other Controldeck (Enchantress, Rock etc.).

[freakish777]

hoping to draw in the last 1-2 rounds on the back of a good Limited and Standard performance. On the other side we'll have the guys who hope to sweep Legacy to rescue an average run in the other formats.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken the 2HG portion of Worlds this year doesn't help determine standings for individuals, and instead determines standings of National Teams.

As such, we may see more or less ID's then you're predicting. Personally, I would have liked seeing Legacy not be the last format that determines the individual standings and instead have it be first. This would "force" players to come prepared, as opposed to saying "I'll see how I do in Standard and Draft, and if I do well then I'll just pick an established deck that can 3-1-1 or 2-2-1 me into T8, and if I don't do well in Standard and Draft, then heck I'm out anyways."

Either way, it should be really exciting, as I'm sure the players that are aiming to T8 or that are in the POY race will want to take some risks to try and crack the T8.

[Bane of the Living]

I expect no innovation from pros for our format and Id imagine the most popular choices will be thresh, gobs, and landstill.

If this isnt boring for our community I will be in awe.

[Bardo]

Hey attention is attention. :smile:

As for predictions, I think the pros will play it safe, since the Legacy portion comes near the end of the tournament, and players will be risk-adverse in playing wacky decks in order to maximize their odd on making T8.

Since it's not a Legacy tournament (mainly LOR Draft + TS+LOR Standard), I can't imagine they'll devote that much time to breaking the format.

[frogboy]

Predicting a top eight is fairly stupid considering that the Legacy rounds merely contribute to the overall Swiss total. Predicting the decks that will go x-0 is a lot more productive, and offhand I can't remember how many there generally are.

[niknight]

I think that they're going to treat Legacy just like they treated Extended last year. Play something safe and easy, and hope to get out at 4-2.

What will show up (in order of popularity): Thresh, Goblins, Affinity, Breakfast, Ichorid.

Highest win %: Cephalid Breakfast

[Kronicler]

When did you find this out? Also, which dude is he again? I can never keep those guys straight...

It was that guy who plays random ass decks. He played 5/3 at one tourney and last time he was playing UGR thresh with wee dragonots or w/e they are called. He is decently long brown hair that is usually back in a pony tail and rarely if ever comes on friday night. Am I ringing a bell yet?

Kronicler

[troopatroop]

Thresh
Goblins
Ichorid
Breakfast
Landstill
Affinity

[Wallace]

Thresh
Goblins
Ichorid
Breakfast
Landstill
Affinity

Totally agree, I think you might see some Goyf Sligh and Sui black decks show up too. Sui black has been a fav. for a long time and Goyf Sligh is Easy to build and play.

[Bongo]

As for the actual metagame prediction I'd say we'll have 2 camps. One camp will only want to have a solid record in Legacy hoping to draw in the last 1-2 rounds on the back of a good Limited and Standard performance.
On the other side we'll have the guys who hope to sweep Legacy to rescue an average run in the other formats. The former will most likely play Threshold, the latter will play Stormcombo.

This part is very interesting and I'd like to add a few comments.

Looking at the replies so far, it seems to be the consensus that Threshold is going to be the most played deck.
Since there will be more people who have an average record in Limited and Standard than people who will play in the Top 8, I suspect that players are far more willing to try out new strategies (assuming of course they have the will to win it all, not just post a solid record).


The format is pretty much open, with Threshold as the consensus top dog. That means rogue strategies with an edge against Threshold will do very well. Something like White Stax will thrive in such a metagame because it has a good Thresh and Combo matchup and people don't pack enough artifact hate.

Another solid pick would be BG Elves like the Feldman/Hill build from GP Columbus. Leyline of the Void is gradually becoming a key card in Legacy, since it is the only card besides Force of Will that can disrupt the opponent on turn 0.
Leyline affects quite a few strategies, ranging from Threshold, Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, Loam decks, Survival, Reanimator to Landstill (Crucible and Monastery) and Iggy Pop.


And yeah, if people don't have Leyline in their board, Ichorid is going to sweep the Legacy portion. It gets even better in Legacy than it was in Extended, where it was heavily metagamed against and still posted solid results.

[Kadishack]

Ben Lundquist is playing Breakfast. Atleast that is what he said he was going to play.

[Deep6er]

So, looks like we have a couple of people doing well with various decks.

Luis Scott Vargas is 6-0 with Enchantress
Katsuhiro Mori gets there with Baseruption
Zvi was doing well with a U/W deck that played like Landstill but with Tops
Raphael Levy was playing Black Threshold to a very good finish

Check out some of the feature matches here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/welcome

Some of them are pretty funny.

[Kronicler]

Luis Scott Vargas is 6-0 with Enchantress

Just gotta say, I was right on the money.

Kronicler

[Tacosnape]

Go Dragon Stompy!

[Sigar]

Where can I find the top 8 decks?

[kabal]

2 Belcher
1 4C Threshold
2 Landstill
1 3cBlack
1 PT Junk
1 Mono-white Stax

;) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/top8profile)

[Ophidian]

Just gotta say, I was right on the money.

Kronicler

Ironically, the person I was going to confirm this with was at worlds.. no wonder he wasn't on AIM.

[Peter_Rotten]

2 Belcher
1 4C Threshold
2 Landstill
1 3cBlack
1 PT Junk

;) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/top8profile)

2 Belcher? Wow. It seemed like Chalice and Landstill were everywhere. I wonder how those Belcher decks snuck in.

[Nihil Credo]

Remember, the Top 8 is based on the whole 16 rounds of play, not just the five Legacy ones. So the two Belcher players might have had an only decent Legacy performance, but excellent Standard and Draft records.

[etrigan]

Otsuka went 3-2.
Nakano went 2-1-2.

[meanee]

My teammate Anton Lunau played some version of white stax and went 4-1 conceeding the last round because his opponent was still playing for money, while Anton was not. Anyway they played for the heck of it, and Anton won 2-0, so practically 5-0 with white stax...

I don't have his exact list, but I do know it contained some number of moats...

Anyway - a little update. It doesn't look like there has been a whole lot of new smart tricksy things around. Not to my surprise, but still it is sad - could have been fun to shake the format up a bit with some new incredible tech.

- meanee

[Mental]

Just gotta say, I was right on the money.

Kronicler

True, thought I don't see much Stax.

Also, I see no goblins.

[URABAHN]

2 Belcher? Wow. It seemed like Chalice and Landstill were everywhere. I wonder how those Belcher decks snuck in.

Is that the Legacy Top 8? Or the Top 8 players entering Day 3? Their Legacy records are pretty awful, and Luis-Scott Vargas isn't featured.

[Silverdragon]

Remember, the Top 8 is based on the whole 16 rounds of play, not just the five Legacy ones. So the two Belcher players might have had an only decent Legacy performance, but excellent Standard and Draft records.

Quoted as an addtional reminder. So far we don't have the top8 Legacy decks although we can guess a bit.
Koutarou Ootsuka made it into top8 for Sunday on a 12-4 record so it is possible that he went 11-0 in Standard and Draft and then played a 1-4 in Legacy (not quite how it most likely happened but possible).

[freakish777]

LSV went 4-1 with Enchantress and has a Deck Tech segment in the video coverage.

Raph Levy played UGbw Threshold with CounterTop, Thoughtseize, Bob, and StP, going 3-1-1, drawing the last round to ensure Level 6 status for next year. It looks like Chapin was playing the same thing, he went 3-1-1 as well.

Some number of french players played Dragon Stompy. Wafo-Tapa went 3-2 with it.

Stuart Wright and Craig Jones play Welder Survival to a combined 7-3 record (with Jones playing poorly it looks like).

Mori's Buw deck got him a 4-1 record.

Zvi plays UW CounterTop + Wrath (Landstill without the Standstill?) goes 4-1, his only loss to Raph's UGbw Thresh.

I would imagine Akki will get us some details when he gets back, and fill us in on what happened in the side events.

[Cait_Sith]

I think it is time someone says it:

All our predictions sucked to high heaven. This has got to be the epitome of what Legacy really is: anything and everything under the Sun. Choose what you like; the format is an open book waiting to be read. A new chapter every day!

[Volt]

Choose what you like; the format is an open book waiting to be read. A new chapter every day!

I just barfed a little.

[TrialByFire]

Zvi plays UW CounterTop + Wrath (Landstill without the Standstill?) goes 4-1, his only loss to Raph's UGbw Thresh.

He was playing UW Control with Moats, and Eternal Dragon as finisher

[Arctic_Slicer]

Here is the Legacy Metagame Breakdown:

Threshold: 76
Goblins: 34
Cephalid Breakfast: 26
Landstill: 24
Dredge: 24
PT Junk: 16
Charbelcher: 15
Survival: 14
Stax: 14
Dragon Stompy: 11
Affinity: 11
38-43 Lands: 9
White-Blue-Black: 8
Aggro Loam: 7
Enchantress: 7
Solidarity: 6
Black-White: 6
3Deuce: 6
Counter Goyf: 5
Black-Blue-Green: 5
Slivers / Meathooks: 3
Black Splash Green: 3
Aluren: 3
Monoblack Aggro: 2
Mono-Blue Control: 2
The Perfect Storm: 2
Iggy Pop: 2
Rifter: 2
White Weenie: 1
Life: 1
StifleNaught: 1
Sea Stompy: 1
Stompy: 1
Other: 10

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/legbreak

As expected it looks like Threshold was the most popular deck followed by Goblins. Third most popular was Cephalid Breakfast which is also isn't too unexpected. So what's this "PT Junk" deck that had 16 people playing it? I don't think I ever heard that name before is it usually called something different?

[Sims]

I think it was mentioned in the other thread, but PT Junk was a deck GWB (i think) midrange aggro deck that was developed back when Gro and Miricle Gro were becoming big name decks. The name is literally Pro Tour Junk as I recall. I don't remember if it started as a meta foil deck or not, but pretty much any deck of that color combination that has held a disruptive mid-range aggro plan has been called by that name or called some variant of Zoo.

[Tacosnape]

I love how the archetype evolved into "38-43" lands.

We should just rename it to "2/3ish Lands"

[Clark Kant]

A quick google search suggests that PT junk is a popular and competitive deck in extended.

It's GWB aggro. Basically it lets one play Goyf, and the ultimate Goyf foil Spectral Lynx (which also owns threshold btw). So it happens to be decent in legacy and was ported there.

But it's not as good as just playing thresh outright. Thus the only time it sees a lot of play is when a bunch of extended players are forced to play Legacy.

Of course, all of that is a complete guess as I really don't know much about extended.

[Peter_Rotten]

Dredge: 24

Does this mean Ichorid? (I assume so.)

[Grollub]

Old school PT Junk - Pro Tour Junk, was a GWB utility aggro deck with answers to anything, coupled with a smidge disruption and efficient creatures - it took the best of all three colors and combined it into a deck that had game against anything it sat across.

I don't think there's currently a PT Junk deck in extended... I could totally see it be a viable choice, considering it should have a fairly good game against Threshold, Goblins and "okish" against straight combo.

I'd love to see how it looks in 2007, I'd imagine very close to the old lists with 'gofys and less enchantment hate (Trix isn't a deck to beat anymore).

[kabal]

It appears that the final deck that made Top 8 was Mono-white Stax. To recap:

2 Belcher
1 4C Threshold
2 Landstill
1 3cBlack
1 PT Junk
1 Mono-white Stax

Go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/top8profile)

[kabal]

OI don't think there's currently a PT Junk deck in extended

Appears that there is one (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/blog3#1):

// land
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath

// creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Eternal Witness
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Watchwolf

// other spells
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Putrefy
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Smother
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Thoughtseize
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

Sideboard
2 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Tormod's Crypt

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

On the other side of the Atlantic the American grouping of Gabe Walls and Mike Hron were busy at work on a deck of their own design, though they weren't using Mountains in it. Instead they set out to abuse the recently unbanned Replenish with the plethora of enchantments available in the format


generic Enchantress decklist with maindeck Sacred Ground

Shrug.

Why would you MD Sacred Ground in Goyf.format? Who plays LD?

[HSCK]

Shu Komuro, Dan OMS, and M. Lyabert all picked up perfect scores on the Legacy portion, any ideas on what they played?

[MattH]

Shrug.

Why would you MD Sacred Ground in Goyf.format? Who plays LD?

Stax, I suppose, where it stops both Wasteland and Smokestack.

[Happy Gilmore]

It appears that the final deck that made Top 8 was Mono-white Stax. To recap:

2 Belcher
1 4C Threshold
2 Landstill
1 3cBlack
1 PT Junk
1 Mono-white Stax

Go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/top8profile)

Thats not the legacy t8 only the decks that the t8 players played in the legacy portion. Heck most of them did mediocre in the Legacy portion.

[Arctic_Slicer]

The decks that did 4-1 or better in the Legacy rounds have been posted. You can find them here. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/legacydecks)

[electrolyze]

so, the 1th-4th place consist only out of breakfast!?

what a stupid t8:laugh:

[Tacosnape]

(sigh) I'm going to have to break down and build Cephalid Breakfast one of these days, much to my dismay.

[TeenieBopper]

The decks that did 4-1 or better in the Legacy rounds have been posted. You can find them here. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/legacydecks)

There are way too many Tarmagoyf's on that page. Fuck that card.

[mogote]

For everyone's convenience here's the real top 8 (as only 8 players managed to assemble 15 points in 5 rounds of Legacy):

1-8. Cephalid Breakfast
1-8. Welder Survival
1-8. Cephalid Breakfast
1-8. Aggro Loam
1-8. UGB Threshold
1-8. UGW Gro
1-8. UGB Gro
1-8. Sui Black w/ Tarmogoyf


The decklists:

Shuu Komuro [JPN]
Main Deck:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
4 Nomad en-kor
1 Shaman en-kor
1 Sutured Ghoul
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dragon Breath
1 Dread Return
2 Eladamri's Call
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Worldly Tutor

Sideboard:
4 Abeyance
1 Crippling Fatigue
3 Dark Confidant
2 Echoing Truth
1 Stern Proctor
4 Thoughtseize


Stuart D Wright [USA]:
Main Deck:
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 Tree of Tales
2 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

1 Anger
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Goblin Welder
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Platinum Angel
2 Shield Sphere
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion

3 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox
4 Intuition
2 Mox Diamond
4 Survival of the Fittest

Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Genesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Ingot Chewer
4 Pyroclasm
1 Shriekmaw
2 Thoughtseize
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wispmare


Andres Camargo [CHL]
Main Deck:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
4 Nomad en-kor
1 Shaman en-kor
1 Stern Proctor
1 Sutured Ghoul
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dragon Breath
1 Dread Return
2 Eladamri's Call
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Worldly Tutor

Sideboard:
3 Abeyance
1 Crippling Fatigue
2 Dark Confidant
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Thoughtseize
3 Tormod's Crypt


Marijn Lybaert [BEL]
Main Deck:
1 Badlands
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
3 Wild Mongrel

4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Deathmark
1 Devastating Dreams
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's Crypt


Daniel O'Mahoney-Schwartz [USA]
Main Deck:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
4 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Stifle
3 Threads of Disloyalty


Grgur Petric Maretic [HRV]
Main Deck:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Predict
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
4 Counterbalance
1 Ground Seal
3 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Swords to Plowshares


Shouta Yasooka [JPN]
Main Deck:
1 Bayou
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Opt
4 Ponder
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
2 Divert
4 Engineered Plague
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Tormod's Crypt


Jia Wu [CHN]
Main Deck:
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Carnophage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sarcomancy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Serum Powder


Notice all the Tarmogoyfs. Maybe the Welder Survival could squeeze some in as well to make everything perfect! :-)

[Bovinious]

There are way too many Tarmagoyf's on that page. Fuck that card.

QFT, I scrolled down for a while and the only decks that didnt run Goyf were like 2 dredge decks, a TES deck, and a bad survival deck...redonk I h8 teh goyf :(

[largebrandon]

QFT, I scrolled down for a while and the only decks that didnt run Goyf were like 2 dredge decks, a TES deck, and a bad survival deck...redonk I h8 teh goyf :(

Rumor has it that both of those decks are going to be running 'goyf also! Other decks that are 'teching' the creature are: Stax, MUC, Goblins, Belcher, and Solidarity. [/cynicism]

[Nihil Credo]

Hey, remember Osamu Fujita's "only 1 Factory as win condition" Stax deck?

Turns out he was sideboarding 3 Angels and 2 Magi to actually win postboard games in time. Sneaky bastard.

And two players were actually piloting BHWC Landstill with... Goyfs, Wastelands, and Crucibles. Ugh...

[TeenieBopper]

Rumor has it that both of those decks are going to be running 'goyf also! Other decks that are 'teching' the creature are: Stax, MUC, Goblins, Belcher, and Solidarity. [/cynicism]

If I actually owned Tarmagoyfs, I'd run them in Goblins. Seriously. No reason not to.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

But it's not worth banning, because it's just a beater.[/sarcasm]

[TeenieBopper]

If they never banned Goblin Lackey, they'll never ban Tarmagoyf. They both see/saw a disproportionate amount of play, and are both stupid mana cheats, but in different ways.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Lackey's a lot easier to solve, and on completely opposite ends of the scale re: deck versatility. Goyf fits in almost any deck; Lackey fits in one deck.

[Bovinious]

I agree, ban Tarmogoyf...

[APriestOfGix]

Goyf fits their standards for banning a card PERFECTLY!

It is seen in every single deck, or an answer is seen in every single deck. Hell it is in more decks that Skullclamp was and that got the ax. They are just afraid because it would be the first "beater" to ever be put on the banned list. All other cards were combo enablers, tutors, or CA machines (wait all three of those are combo enablers :-P)


But i'm really pissed. WotC just gave the pros our decks. They say a XXXXX creation, when in reality not a single deck was not ripped from the source. Zvi is the only man i admire at all of worlds, and thats because he stole 2 ideas and mashed him, and that makes him the most innovative!?!? How pathetic, the pro basically suck.

[Solpugid]

Is there some kind of petition we could all sign and send to WotC to nix goyf? For God's sake, I have a playset but I hate using them. They've gotten so boring. If the card ever gets banned (and I now think it needs to be), I would want it to be during its run in Standard, so I can trade away the card for its full value.

Seriously, if Landstill is running a non-utility creature that dies to its own removal, there's a problem.

[APriestOfGix]

Is there some kind of petition we could all sign and send to WotC to nix goyf? For God's sake, I have a playset but I hate using them. They've gotten so boring. If the card ever gets banned (and I now think it needs to be), I would want it to be during its run in Standard, so I can trade away the card for its full value.

Seriously, if Landstill is running a non-utility creature that dies to its own removal, there's a problem.

New Thread in Community Board, please post there about Goyf and potential banning.

Lets stay on the topic of worlds here.

[Happy Gilmore]

If I actually owned Tarmagoyfs, I'd run them in Goblins. Seriously. No reason not to.

We have already tested this...it was amazing, just ask Anwar.

[Lego]

I want to start by saying that I'm not accusing anyone with this post, and I'm not trying to provoke anything, I'm just trying to provide a general caution about something that I've noticed some Sourcers (including myself, I will admit) doing after Worlds.

Many Source members assume that we, as "The Source," had a very large, direct impact on the Worlds Legacy metagame. The conversations I had with folks playing in the Legacy portion of Worlds this weekend made it clear that that is not true (at least not in any widespread way.) At best, the effect that The Source had was indirect (see below.) I address this first because those Sourcers I've talked to seem to view this issue as one of some sort of entitlement, and I think that is dangerous. Yes, The Source is a great place to go, maybe the best place to go for Legacy discussion. There's a lot of innovation, testing, and tuning that takes place here. But to think that we're the only people who do any work, or that everything that happens in the Legacy world is directly due to this site and the innovation that takes place here is arrogant and incorrect. I'm not excusing the coverage that Wizards provided, and I do think the Source had a large indirect role on the meta, but I also think we need to be very careful to avoid the problematic idea that somehow the Source "owns" this format. Again, I'm not saying that every Source member thinks this, but I've noticed it as a common enough feeling that I thought it should be talked about.

Everyone I talked to who was playing in Worlds (which was only about 25 people) pulled their lists directly from a T8 list, card-for-card, and sometimes made a few, "I'm a pro so I know better" changes to the list. And they all said something to the effect of, "I can't not play 4 Tarmogoyf MD." (I'm just noting this as a phenomenon, not commenting on its value.) Most of the lists people got came from European T8s. Admittedly, there is a thread (or multiple threads) on the Source for every deck I saw at Worlds, and a large portion of those decks come directly from Sourcers, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Pros were coming to this site looking for decklists. The ones I talked to were doing exactly what people usually do when they don't know a format and don't have the time or desire to learn it: looking at T8 lists from large events past.

All of that said, I don't think that this event shows us much of anything about the Legacy format (except that Wizards knows nothing about it,) and I don't think it will have much of an impact on the metagame among avid Legacy players. I think it was nice that Wizards made Legacy a format at Worlds, but I was very disappointed in the work that the players did, and I was even more disappointed in the coverage provided. For those of you who didn't read it, I think I would find it difficult to summarize it without exhibiting the sense of entitlement that I so recently warned about, so I will simply say that I don't think the reporters did their homework.

EDIT: Also, Vintage year in review? Can we get a Legacy year in review?!?

[Nihil Credo]

Many Source members assume that we, as "The Source," had a very large, direct impact on the Worlds Legacy metagame. The conversations I had with folks playing in the Legacy portion of Worlds this weekend made it clear that that is not true (at least not in any widespread way.) At best, the effect that The Source had was indirect (see below.)

[...]

Everyone I talked to who was playing in Worlds (which was only about 25 people) pulled their lists directly from a T8 list, card-for-card, and sometimes made a few, "I'm a pro so I know better" changes to the list.

Right, except, where did those Top 8 list get suggested, explored, discussed, playtested, and finetuned before they were piloted in a Legacy tournament somewhere? Calling that sort of connection 'indirect' is a stretch.

[Kronicler]

Wow, I think people really need to stop whining about Goyf. Yeah, it is great, and yeah, it fits into a lot of decks, but, as wizards has said before, Goyf creates completely fair interactivity. It's not like when Goyf hits you once you lose (read: lackey), or like it makes games completely un-interactive and un-fun (read: uber combo engines, skullclamp affinity), or anything like that. It is a big vanilla creature that makes green as a color playable outside of loam decks and that makes the combat step relevant in a format where there is a lot of combo. Cmon people, stop complaining and adjust. Pack some more removal into your deck, maybe a couple Engineered Explosives to set at 2, etc. There are so many ways to deal with this guy that it isn't even funny.

Kronicler

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

What you fail to account for is the "So what?" factor.

You've dug for your Wrath of God, and fought through his counterwall. The 5/6 beater finally died after dealing 10 to you. And next turn he combos off because he was playing Breakfast, and you had to waste your resources dealing with Goyf.

Or you deal with a 4/5 Goyf after a swing with StP. That's an 8 point life differential with card parity. And what if he plays another one next turn? Or finishes setting up Balance-Top?

Goyf isn't insane in the sense that Long.dec or Academy were insane. He's insane because it's four deck slots that require immediate response, and don't have to directly tie into the rest of the deck's strategy. That's stupid. There's almost no reason NOT to run Goyf.

[MattH]

In other words, Goyf is like transformational sideboarding ALL THE TIME.

[Grollub]

Right, except, where did those Top 8 list get suggested, explored, discussed, playtested, and finetuned before they were piloted in a Legacy tournament somewhere? Calling that sort of connection 'indirect' is a stretch.

Yes every single innovation and decklist is a direct result created by the amazing lab called "The Source"?
/sarcasm

While it is probably the biggest Legacy site, that statement just seems... Arrogant - not meant as a flame.. :-/

[Di]

While I don't disagree with you Grollub, I believe Nihil is right in a sense. And although a deck may not have been fine-tuned, discussed, or tested on here, we have the largest gathering of Legacy top8 info and decklists on the internet, so the odds of people netdecking a top8 list from here is substantially higher than from anywhere else. So, in some way or another, I believe we did have an impact on this tournament.

[bruno_tiete]

Regarding brazilian players preparation to the Legacy portion of Worlds, those players qualified asked us Legacy regulars for advice and decks. Not decklists, but actual decks. My UGw Thresh went to New york to a 3-2 result. The build was crap, as it had been tuned to the previous day 10-people tournament meta, but it was all I had in my backpack when the one taking it came to me desperate for a deck.

The reigning national champion asked openly in a portuguese forum for people to come help him playtest, by bringing Legacy staple decks. Probably no one actively peeked into the Source for lists when answering this call. Still, I brought Threshold, pretty much the staple build, while friends brought Ichorid, Cephalid, Landstill, Goblins and Bwg Deadguy.

Most of those decks either were created here or, since their creation, were kept in discuss, with constant updates and sharpening here. This is indirect influence, but a very strong one. The fact that most lists already existed, have a name or even a 10-page long thread shows how well developed the format actually is by its player base. That is the main point, imho. I have heard Legacy was played by amateurs and, therefore, underdeveloped. After creating their decks, the Pros arrived at the very same spots as we did. The rebuilt stuff. This must mean we are not that stupid.


Nonetheless, most of the players just hated playing Legacy, pointing that they find the format too match-up based. Given this is the very same response they had to Valencia Extended meta, I am not sure what their sugestion would be...

[cheddercaveman]

Well, to your last point about them not liking it and it being too matchup based, thats just whining IMO. That can be said in every format at one point or another. Personally, I'd rather complain that 7 of the top 8 decks were playing 'goyf, but I'll save that as we've all heard it. They're complaining because its change and its new, they don't normally play it, its not their focus or specialty so they have "fears" about it. Things like...

"It's underdeveloped"
"It's too matchup dependant"
"we aren't good at it"

Whatever they want to complain about they will. I personally think that it shows either how lazy or how little the talent of the pros is if they weren't able to innovate anything anymore than the decks we saw. If as was said the format was really that bad and we all didnt know what we were doing, we should have seen newer decks. In fact, I think we saw some pretty non-optimal builds of a lot of decks from looking through the decks lists. For example, while good UGb threshold was played to death, but if you look at the numbers here white and red are clearly better splashes.

Legacy, for my money, is the most balanced, fun, and competative format that wizards has right now. It has really powerful decks and cards, fast game play, tough matches, and contrary to what was said up there it rewards the play skill of the player more than the matchup. I think if the pros had played and tested their decks more than it sounds like they did, they'd be better players. Look at all the examples of why this is the case...

CounterSliver vs Landstill - this is a matchup that is definitely favored on the side of landstill, but a player who knows how to play countersliver well may very well win this matchup more than he's "supposed" to.

Solidarity vs Deadguy - Another matchup where one deck isnt favored, I've seen some good players win with solidarity in this matchup. So, while this is a bad match for one deck, its still not unwinable

These were the first 2 examples I could think of, but the moral of the story is the same, the format definitely supports play skill. There are always going to be good and bad matchups, but the format definitely allows for play skill

[zulander]

What you fail to account for is the "So what?" factor.

You've dug for your Wrath of God, and fought through his counterwall. The 5/6 beater finally died after dealing 10 to you. And next turn he combos off because he was playing Breakfast, and you had to waste your resources dealing with Goyf.

Or you deal with a 4/5 Goyf after a swing with StP. That's an 8 point life differential with card parity. And what if he plays another one next turn? Or finishes setting up Balance-Top?

QQ more, seriously. Any situation can make something ridiculously broken... For example:
You're goblins playing against landstill and you're in the process of ramping up. You've played 1/2 goblins for the past two turns while he's playing factories. Then it happens, your chance to swing for half of his life and win on your next turn. That is until he untaps and draws Wrath of God. Until this your turns and resources were used to vamp up your offense and then that sunofab**ch draws and plays a wrath of god. All he had to do was pay 4 mana and blow up everything while you had to waste your turns playing creatures out one by one, it's totally unfair.

You see what I did there?? Tarmogoyf is perfectly stable in this format. If you look back before he was printed everyone was up in arms as to why green was one of the least played colors (expect for thresh) and now after he was printed he's helped green out tremendously. In my opinion all tarmogoyf he's done to this format is make people play removal not named lightning bolt. And because of him the format is much more diverse. You don't always see 2x thresh, 3x combo and 3x goblins in a tournaments top 8. Paying 1G for a beater (on average a 4/5) is just as fine for this format as paying 2WW to blow up an entire army or 1BG to destroy an entire board.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

You see what I did there?? Tarmogoyf is perfectly stable in this format. If you look back before he was printed everyone was up in arms as to why green was one of the least played colors (expect for thresh)

Where?


and now after he was printed he's helped green out tremendously.

If he had been GG this would have been true. He hasn't helped green; he's helped multi-colored strategies.

QQ more, seriously. Any situation can make something ridiculously broken... For example:
You're goblins playing against landstill and you're in the process of ramping up. You've played 1/2 goblins for the past two turns while he's playing factories. Then it happens, your chance to swing for half of his life and win on your next turn. That is until he untaps and draws Wrath of God. Until this your turns and resources were used to vamp up your offense and then that sunofab**ch draws and plays a wrath of god. All he had to do was pay 4 mana and blow up everything while you had to waste your turns playing creatures out one by one, it's totally unfair.



In my opinion all tarmogoyf he's done to this format is make people play removal not named lightning bolt. And because of him the format is much more diverse. You don't always see 2x thresh, 3x combo and 3x goblins in a tournaments top 8. Paying 1G for a beater (on average a 4/5) is just as fine for this format as paying 2WW to blow up an entire army or 1BG to destroy an entire board.

It's usually something like 4BG.

Are you really comparing Tarmogoyf to Wrath of God? I have class, and before I waste time pointing out all the reasons they don't compare, I want to make sure you're being serious.

[cheddercaveman]

QQ more, seriously. Any situation can make something ridiculously broken... For example:
You're goblins playing against landstill and you're in the process of ramping up. You've played 1/2 goblins for the past two turns while he's playing factories. Then it happens, your chance to swing for half of his life and win on your next turn. That is until he untaps and draws Wrath of God. Until this your turns and resources were used to vamp up your offense and then that sunofab**ch draws and plays a wrath of god. All he had to do was pay 4 mana and blow up everything while you had to waste your turns playing creatures out one by one, it's totally unfair.

You see what I did there?? Tarmogoyf is perfectly stable in this format. If you look back before he was printed everyone was up in arms as to why green was one of the least played colors (expect for thresh) and now after he was printed he's helped green out tremendously. In my opinion all tarmogoyf he's done to this format is make people play removal not named lightning bolt. And because of him the format is much more diverse. You don't always see 2x thresh, 3x combo and 3x goblins in a tournaments top 8. Paying 1G for a beater (on average a 4/5) is just as fine for this format as paying 2WW to blow up an entire army or 1BG to destroy an entire board.

You know before Tarmogofy green was still viable in the format. There are plenty of solid green 2 drops that used to exist ... Wild Mongrel, Werebear, Quirion Dryad, etc etc. Those cards are extremely potent. Also, goofy costs 1G, which means that he's not really supporting green, he's saying splash green for me and another creature and then play good cards from other colors to fill in the gaps.

Worse than that is, I'll agree that green was not fighting for the top spot in the format before goofy. The problem is that he's completely negated entire colors or aspects of entire colors from being playable essentially.

Red? Why bother, they don't have a single spell that can take out Tarmogoyf that is even remotely reasonable to play. And even though I realize that as I type this that Burn is a DTW we all know it isnt consistant enough to bring red back up in the format. Now, red was ridiculously powerful for a long while (gobbos we're looking at you) so maybe this is balanceing, but in my opinion a lightning bolt, red's 1 cost removal, should be able to hit a 1-2/3 drop and be useful.

White? Ok, splash for StP, but after that what do you need white for. Meddling Mage doesnt count either. White's creatures that used to be the smallest and most efficient in the 1-2 mana cost range are now fairly useless. Why play white creatures when you could just play tarmogoyf? White's best beater is probably Jotun Grunt (which can hose goyf) but on its own it actually has a draw back, something that goofy realistically doesnt have.

I don't know if anyone here remembers playing in standard with Umezawa's Jitte in the format, but we have this situation now in every format. The best answer to goofy is one of your own. If your playing any aggro or aggro-control there are lots of spot removal spells that kill it, but none of those are as good as you just having them in your deck too. In standard you had to have the jitte's because they'd remove your opponents jitte and if the didnt have one then you did, which is good. Naturalize is only good for 1 jitte. Same thing here, might as well just play one of your own instead of playing a removal spell. In my opinion thats a sign of a broken card, when the "control" cards for it aren't even worth playing over it.

Anyways, the moral of the story is that one card has essentially negated a lot of strategies of a lot of decks and deck styles because WoTC and players refuse to believe that a creature might actually be TOO powerful.

Please see the standings from Worlds SEVEN of Eight of the top 8 were playing 'goyf in Legacy. FIVE of the Eight in the standard top 8 were playing 'goyf. I don't remember the PT results, but I know one deck that did win it had 'goyf. I believe when reading about their rules for banning a card it said something to the extent of if a card is so good that it dominates the format to such a degree to make other archetypes unplayable it needs to be banned. Well, what do we have here? I digress..

[kirdape3]

It's rather odd to see the format with the highest concentration of playable neutralization spells in every color is the one with the most advocates clamoring the banning of a creature that is simply undercosted, rather than an enormous mana cheat (such as Lackey). Every color has them, every color can reasonably defend them or overload a limited counterwall, and I'm not sure how 'warping' a creature that is eminently stoppable by anyone and doesn't absolutely win the game the turn after it hits play (Hermit Druid absolutely did this, Goblin Lackey does this much less) actually is.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Lackey and Druid are both paper dragons. They're explosive, but they're much more high commitment. Each advances one specific strategy, and only that strategy. Each of those strategies requires the majority of your decklist to be predetermined. Each has a toughness of one. It makes more sense to run foils to those strategies than to run them; you don't answer Lackey by running Lackey. You answer lackey by running cheap creature removal, or a creature with a toughness of 2 and a cc of 1. Or mass removal. They're not really comparable.

As cheddar pointed out, Goyf is closer to Jitte, or I would say, Skullclamp. Different, but they're the closest precedent.

[Arsenal]

I think it's because you either are forced to (a.) play Goyf, or (b.) play something, like StP/Smother/etc, to deal with Goyf immediately. If you don't, you will most likely lose. Combo decks are the only exception to this, as they try to win on turn 1-3, and don't really care what you're putting on the table (unless it directly effects the combo).

I mean, if you play creatures as kill conditions, there's no reason not to splash green for Goyf. And if you aren't going to splash for Goyf, you're required to include removal that will deal with Goyf. Red Death is a good example of a deck that has fallen off the map due to Goyf. Can it add balck removal to deal with Goyf? Of course. But that's the whole point; Goyf forces you to add things to your deck to deal with it immediately, or you will lose. Or if you don't have removal, chances are that you are running Goyf already.

[FoolofaTook]

It's rather odd to see the format with the highest concentration of playable neutralization spells in every color is the one with the most advocates clamoring the banning of a creature that is simply undercosted, rather than an enormous mana cheat (such as Lackey). Every color has them, every color can reasonably defend them or overload a limited counterwall, and I'm not sure how 'warping' a creature that is eminently stoppable by anyone and doesn't absolutely win the game the turn after it hits play (Hermit Druid absolutely did this, Goblin Lackey does this much less) actually is.

I don't think we've seen the decks where Tarmogoyf is ridiculously broken yet. It's warping in the general meta but not to the point of breaking the meta in the same way that Vial/Lackey used to be in Goblins.

What are we going to see that's worse than the decks that currently use Goyf? I don't know, but I keep wondering about combo decks that want to fill the graveyard early on and exploit dredge mechanics, that might use Goyf as a pressure cooker early on to be a pre-alternate win condition. You know, drop the Goyf on turn two and if your opponent is still alive on turn 4 or 5 then combo off...

[Nihil Credo]

What are we going to see that's worse than the decks that currently use Goyf? I don't know, but I keep wondering about combo decks that want to fill the graveyard early on and exploit dredge mechanics, that might use Goyf as a pressure cooker early on to be a pre-alternate win condition. You know, drop the Goyf on turn two and if your opponent is still alive on turn 4 or 5 then combo off...

Dredge aside, that sounds remarkably like Breakfast, which is actually 1.5 turn faster too.

[Nightmare]

What are we going to see that's worse than the decks that currently use Goyf? I don't know, but I keep wondering about combo decks that want to fill the graveyard early on and exploit dredge mechanics, that might use Goyf as a pressure cooker early on to be a pre-alternate win condition. You know, drop the Goyf on turn two and if your opponent is still alive on turn 4 or 5 then combo off...
You mean like Cephalid Breakfast?

[FoolofaTook]

Is Goyf in Cephalid Breakfast yet?

If so it kind of makes the point, I guess.

I was kind of thinking about Goyf as a precursor to Sutured Ghoul to clear all those annoying StP and FoW away before the nasty big thing lands.

[TrialByFire]

Is Goyf in Cephalid Breakfast yet?

If so it kind of makes the point, I guess.

I was kind of thinking about Goyf as a precursor to Sutured Ghoul to clear all those annoying StP and FoW away before the nasty big thing lands.

As others have said, pretty much Breakfast in a nutshell. Its been this way since the Legacy Champs at Gencon..?

[BreathWeapon]

It's rather odd to see the format with the highest concentration of playable neutralization spells in every color is the one with the most advocates clamoring the banning of a creature that is simply undercosted, rather than an enormous mana cheat (such as Lackey). Every color has them, every color can reasonably defend them or overload a limited counterwall, and I'm not sure how 'warping' a creature that is eminently stoppable by anyone and doesn't absolutely win the game the turn after it hits play (Hermit Druid absolutely did this, Goblin Lackey does this much less) actually is.

Goyf isn't just a creature, Goyf is the best creature ever printed, in print or that will ever be printed within reason. The analogy to Umezawa's Jitte is sound, altho' at least Umezawa's Jitte came with the restriction of having a creature to equip it to, there's no reason to run a removal card for Tarmogoyf when you can run Tarmogoyf, or run Tarmogoyf and a removal card for Tarmogoyf and even a Control Magic etc. card for Tarmogoyf, and that is both A) ridiculous and B) apparent from every format the card is legal in sans Vintage, and it may end up being apparent there to.

There is a point at which an under costed, splashable and self contained threat is degenerate. Tarmogoyf is clearly restraining the format, and what's worse is that it doesn't require a real commitment. If I had to choose between Tarmogoyf and Goblin Lackey running a muck, I'd rather have Goblin Lackey, because Goblins are easier to deal with as a whole and there is a tier one deck with out Force of Will in the meta game again.

Just because Tarmogoyf is a vanilla creature and there is no precedent for banning a vanilla creature doesn't mean that Tarmogoyf hasn't created a unique case for banning that needs to be considered. If you banned Tarmogoyf, the format would be more diverse, and that was/is the ultimate goal of the format.

[Artowis]

If you banned Tarmogoyf, the format would be more diverse, and that was/is the ultimate goal of the format.

The format isn't diverse enough already?

[T is for TOOL]

There is already a thread for Goyf banning calls. Post there if you want to continue to complain about it.