View Full Version : [Deck] BG Pox
Pox has seen many forms throughout the years. Since the early days of Magic, Pox has waxed and waned in favor. Pox can be run as mono-black, green splash, white splash as well as other variants. Many people do not play well against Pox, and many more cannot control Pox properly. So what is the point of playing it? Pox introduces an element of play that forces the opponent to second guess themselves. By altering the board and sometimes the win conditions, one can force the opponent to make hasty decisions that cost them a match. As a black control deck, Pox shows what boardwide attrition can do to most decks.
The earlier versions of mono-black Pox relied heavily on Sinkhole, Dark Ritual and Hymn to Tourach. Not much has changed since then, other than the printing of Small Pox. With the inclusion of Small Pox, we can now see that sometimes a series minor losses are worse than one or two major ones. Most Pox decks rely on a base now that includes the original Sinkhole, Dark Ritual and Hymn to Tourach set with the inclusion of Duress and Small Pox.
This article is targeted primarily at the green splash version of Pox. There are many reasons one would choose green splash vs. white splash vs. mono-black, but mostly it boils down to personal preference. In legacy, Pernicious Deed is a great bomb early, mid or late game. With this in mind, many people have come to the conclusion that replacement of a couple of Poxes with Pernicious Deeds allows more control of the targeting of the attrition. Much like warfare of today, Pox has transformed from using nukes and blanket bombing to now using a more surgical strike destruction.
First, I give you my background as reference. Not everything in this article may be correct but I will attempt to portray the facts to the best of my knowledge. I have been playing Magic since right before Beta was phasing out and Unlimited was phasing in. I was about 13 at the time and didn't know much about the game or have much money. Back in the days of a $50 Beta Black Lotus, the game played much different. With the conception of "types", sometime around Mirage block, I decided to stay with Type 1. Back then, locally, Type 1 played out much like today's Legacy does. After leaving the game around Urza's block and then coming back in Mirrodin block, much has changed. Affinity was at it's prime then and the game seemed too slanted to me. So leaving again during Kamigawa and returning during Time Spiral, we are now to today. I have a lot of catching up to do but here we go for the Pox article.
The most current version of an alternate Pox that is currently being developed and played, seems to be "Vaka Pox". Why the name was chosen, I'm not really sure. The inclusion of white into Pox has been going on since the printing of Pox. No need to argue semantics though, you can view the development of the current leading BW Pox here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5496
The BG Pox you are about to view was originally developed using the Loaming Pox build by André Bärlin and can be viewed here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7823
Here is a current list that seems to work well against many decks that I play against. Many of the concepts found in other Pox decks and Life from the Loam decks are employed here. Using Threshold's land count as the basis for the mana, I was able to speed up the deck with more acceleration. Recursion creatures were dropped in favor of a faster clock.
BG Pox - [Legacy deck suggested by Dylan Fleming]
Land [17]:
4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Barren Moor
2x Mishra's Factory
2x Wasteland
Clock [4]:
4x Tarmogoyf
Acceleration [14]:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Dark Ritual
3x Mox Diamond
3x Sylvan Library
Attrition [20]:
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
2x Pox
2x Pernicious Deed
Recovery [5]:
3x Life from the Loam
2x Zuran Orb
-------------------
Sideboard [15]:
2x Infest
4x Thoughtseize
3x Krosan Grip
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
Sylvan Library helps to dig deeper in the deck for better dredging and to find the right answer at the right time. Sylvan is very synergetic with the recurable fetchlands and in a pinch can provide that extra card draw you may need.
Zuran Orb helps to stabilize your mid-game life total. Many losses in old lists were due to simply running out of steam mid-game or losing too much life. Once again, recursion of the lands helps to increase the usefulness of the Orb.
Tarmogoyf is probably one of the most abused cards printed recently. Generally, he hits the table as a 4/5 or 5/6 on turns 3 or 4. Adding such a fast clock to the already disruptive attrition has finished many games quicker than any earlier versions could achieve.
Many of the lands were dropped due to the numerous times mana flooding occured. Instead of the deck being based off of Life from the Loam, it now uses LftL as a support card to gain an advantage. LftL could be stripped from the deck completely with Extirpate or the like, and still run just fine.
Mishra's Factory was maintained for chump blocking anything that the goyf and attrition can't handle. It also allows for some damage to still hit the opponent even with the board blowing up turn after turn.
Wasteland provides a great lock for many decks, but against others it is nothing but a detriment to yourself. Generally, a single Wasteland is sufficient to provide the lock, and with the discussion of low dual land supplies, Wasteland may in the future wane in favor. Two seem sufficient to still include this powerful mechanic without sacrificing deck integrity.
The sideboard has not changed much in design, only some of the particulars differ.
Extirpate is a very useful card in conjunction with discard in the deck. Many decks cannot handle the pre-board attrition, adding RFG on top of that post-board is generally devastating. The new Split Second mechanic is very useful as well, making it hold up well against Thresh and Dredge decks.
Many of the older listings included Innocent Blood as a replacement for Duress versus a creature heavy deck. With the printing of Thoughtseize, you may now still provide the same ability of Duress as well as the added creature removal of Innocent Blood. The new life gaining and non-recurring creatures work better with Thoughtseize as well.
Some postings of tournament and testing results from other players in the community would be appreciated in hopes that the green splash Pox may be listed one day as a Deck to Beat.
Well, the list I posted before this one was shit. After much testing online, playing in tournaments locally, help from others on the forums and help from others piloting my version; I have finally come up with a more solid list. This list still has some issues with it though.
4 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
3 Barren Moor
2 Cabal Pit
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Treetop Village
3 Wasteland
3 Swamp
2 Nether Spirit
2 Undead Gladiator
2 Tombstalker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
3 Mox Diamond
Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
Fixes:
This list has fixed issues with games being drawn out too long due to a lack of damage. Thanks to Tacosnape for suggesting the addition of more threats. Tombstalker has allowed the reuse of the graveyard components that were dead before such as Sinkhole, Hymn and Duress. Tombstalker also is an immediate threat when he hits the table, is outside of the range of Pernicious Deed and fixes the graveyard in the event that Nether Spirit is not recurring.
Mishra's Factory was causing issues with a lack of colored mana, they were dropped in favor of an Overgrown Tomb and Treetop Villages. The Treetops are slower but are a more serious threat than Mishra's and do not require as many to be effective. Early game they are a good pitch to Mox Diamond and mid to late game they provide the extra damage that finishes the game before the deck runs out of steam. Overgrown Tomb was added after having Bayou extirpated out of the deck and having to fall back on moxen to recur lands.
A Cabal Pit was dropped for Tabernacle because in effect they attempt the same end goal: the removal of the opponent's creatures. The Tabernacle takes effect immediately, whereas the Cabal Pit sometimes sits dead for a few turns waiting on threshold. The synergy between Tabernacle and Urborg is great as well. The addition of Tabernacle has allowed the alteration of the sideboard to focus more on problems that black has anyways and adding a fix for goblins matchup.
Improvement Needed:
Matchups against Dragon Stompy have proven difficult. A single moon effect will cripple the deck usually beyond the point of return. Landstill is still an issue due to Crucible and the excessive amount of lands. This same problem is seen when facing decks like 43 Land.
Phyrexian Arena is still a problem, either the tempo needs to be faster or the draw engine needs to be less detrimental. Most game losses involving the arena are nothing more than too much life loss from my own cards, especially the arena.
I would appreciate any advice to further harden this deck versus the DTB list, currently I am at a loss and have moved to playing sui black and breakfast until I can find some solutions to the problems here.
mujadaddy
02-11-2008, 12:20 AM
Why did you take out teh Goyf?
Also, I've been convinced that you don't need card draw in a Poxing deck. (You want it sure, but don't NEED it.)
Swapping Pernicious Deed for Pox seems to have distracted you. (firstly, P-D is ALWAYS more mana than Pox... secondly, P-D seems to be the only thing you splashed for -- but it doesn't do the PRIMARY thing that Pox should do -- attack the hand and attack the lands)
Unfortunately, my advice to "harden this deck versus the DTB list" would be to either dump :g: or to use it differently. In my opinion, the meta could use a solid mono-:b: deck...
I took the Goyf out originally because he was messing up the graveyard for the Nether Spirit to recur. Now he's still out because he 1. doesn't fly and 2. does not rfg components from my graveyard that are unused. The only negative effect I have seen thus far from Tombstalker is that he sometimes messes up my threshold for Cabal Pit, but I have also dropped to only 2 pits so I'm not too concerned.
Actually, the green splash is mainly for the Life from the Loam. The deed was just an extra bonus and is not meant so much as a Pox effect but moreso artifact/enchantment control and board wipe vs. aggro. Tombstalker also synergizes better with the deed since he is almost always outside of the range I can deed for, and so far has always been outside the range I would want to deed for.
I have removed the Phyrexian Arena in favor of Golgari Thug because 1. he can fix my grave by bringing himself or a Tombstalker back, 2. allow the Nether Spirit to recur again and 3. chump block for a while in conjunction with Treetop Village to buy me some time. I have been suggested to add more threats as well, and he meets that standard even though it's only 1 damage. The dredge effect can be nice as well if I'm having trouble finding what I need in lands or creatures.
mujadaddy
02-12-2008, 03:37 PM
Actually, the green splash is mainly for the Life from the Loam.
Hmm... Ok then. Would you say you're using LftL for the dredge (and I can't really see why that would be it) or for the land recursion?
The reason many Pox decks try to run Crucible is because small/Pox destroys land symmetrically... but if you're not running Pox, do you find you need all the land recursion? Is it for mana-fixing?
My personal "Pox-losophy" is that you don't want to have to cast big spells for big mana -- streamline it. Then you don't need the mana-fixing because you can operate with one, two or three lands, max. (...of course, I run mono:b: with Dark Rituals, so your mileage will vary)...
Hmm... Ok then. Would you say you're using LftL for the dredge (and I can't really see why that would be it) or for the land recursion?
I'm using Life from the Loam for the dredge to find recursion creatures faster, and to put tech lands into my graveyard for exploitation. I also use it to recur Barren Moor, Treetop Village, Wasteland, Cabal Pit and fetch lands. Loam also helps to recover from losses quicker.
The reason many Pox decks try to run Crucible is because small/Pox destroys land symmetrically... but if you're not running Pox, do you find you need all the land recursion? Is it for mana-fixing?
It is simply for land manipulation, moving things around where I want them. The greatest benefit I see to running this style of control deck versus a bluer deck like Threshold, is the ability to determine whether a card should be in your hand, library, graveyard or in play. Then exploiting the card to its fullest given it's preferred location.
I have tried Crucible of Worlds, I liked it but I chose Life from the Loam over it simply because of preference. Both can serve comparable purposes but in different ways. With crucible I can run Horizon Canopy for card draw and color. Which allows me to run Mishra's Factory in place of Treetop Village if I want. Mishra's is a better chump blocker but doesn't kill as much. Waiting on a treetop to untap is annoying at times though. Crucible also is a better recover sometimes simply due to the fact that you pay the mana to play it then its effect is free after that. The crucible does blow up to Pernicious Deed though, and is also within an arguable common range for deeds to explode in.
My personal "Pox-losophy" is that you don't want to have to cast big spells for big mana -- streamline it. Then you don't need the mana-fixing because you can operate with one, two or three lands, max. (...of course, I run mono with Dark Rituals, so your mileage will vary)...
Please clarify "streamline". I do run off of 2 or 3 mana producers max. My preferred mana on the table is a Mox Diamond and a Swamp. I also run Dark Ritual, so I'm not sure what you are saying. The only big spells are Pernicious Deed, which is a 2 turn mana utilization, and Tombstalker who is cast generally for only 2 or 3 mana total.
On a side note, my biggest issue right now is Duress v. Thoughtseize v. Innocent Blood. Mainly, this is a problem in the sideboard though which would determine the answer to the question. For now I'm leaving Duress in.
mujadaddy
02-12-2008, 04:23 PM
Ok, cool.
Please clarify "streamline". Pernicious Deed takes a lot of mana... that's really all I had. I run 2 Powder Kegs, but those don't hit Enchantments...
On a side note, my biggest issue right now is Duress v. Thoughtseize v. Innocent Blood. Mainly, this is a problem in the sideboard though which would determine the answer to the question. For now I'm leaving Duress in.I'm a fan of Thoughtseize, simply because it does the job of innocent blood AND duress. In a low-creature meta, of course, run Duress.
Pernicious Deed takes a lot of mana... that's really all I had. I run 2 Powder Kegs, but those don't hit Enchantments...
Pernicious Deed does cause problems at times with the requirement for so much mana. In the past it helped more than Pox, and the only thing of mine that it hurts are the Mox Diamonds now. It also has an easier casting cost and doesn't take as long to get a decent effect from it as compared to Powder Keg. Engineered Explosives rarely is large enough to blow up everything I need and iirc it doesn't pop enchantments either.
I'm a fan of Thoughtseize, simply because it does the job of innocent blood AND duress. In a low-creature meta, of course, run Duress.
Yes, I love the Toughtseize targeting, but sometimes games are won with only 2 life. Unless I can find a reliable, recurable life gain, I believe I may have to stick with md Duress and sb Innocent Blood. The only other way I see to get around this is to run a sweeper in sb like Infest.
mujadaddy
02-12-2008, 06:10 PM
Pernicious Deed does cause problems at times with the requirement for so much mana. In the past it helped more than Pox, and the only thing of mine that it hurts are the Mox Diamonds now. It also has an easier casting cost and doesn't take as long to get a decent effect from it as compared to Powder Keg. Engineered Explosives rarely is large enough to blow up everything I need and iirc it doesn't pop enchantments either.Don't get me wrong -- PD is a great spell, it just costs alot. What do you usually pop PD at?
Re: Powder Keg taking long -- the only time I ever need Powder Keg is to blow up things like Chalice (since PK doesn't hit enchantments) which have slowed down the game, or the occasional 1- or 2- mana critter that slips by the Poxing/Discard... EE doesn't hit enchantments either, correct. It "sounds" like your deck isn't getting much of a lock, or the lock isn't sticking... Correct?
Yes, I love the Toughtseize targeting, but sometimes games are won with only 2 life. Unless I can find a reliable, recurable life gain, I believe I may have to stick with md Duress and sb Innocent Blood. The only other way I see to get around this is to run a sweeper in sb like Infest.This I don't understand -- the biggest threat to my life total (in games I win, of course) is my own Poxing. But you don't *run* Pox. I count one Overgrown Tomb & a few fetches.... what's getting you down to 2 life? The opponent?
If that's the case, it seems like all your land-recursion tech is distracting from beating face...
You said earlier, "The greatest benefit I see to running this style of control deck versus a bluer deck like Threshold, is the ability to determine whether a card should be in your hand, library, graveyard or in play."
The benefits of black control are actually (suicidal) damage & discard. When you get away from these two things, the deck loses consistency...
If you don't need much mana for anything but PD, why do you have so much mana-recursion, I guess is my point.
Don't get me wrong -- PD is a great spell, it just costs alot. What do you usually pop PD at?
Generally, 3 or less. I havn't had a problem with Chalice of the Void yet, so I'm not sure how the deck would handle versus it.
It "sounds" like your deck isn't getting much of a lock, or the lock isn't sticking... Correct?
Most of the time, there is no "lock" just attrition which leads to threats that consistently beat theirs OR or they have no threats and I just beat them down freely. I have locked my opponent on occasions but generally around mid-game (turns 5-10ish if counting turns like 1-1-2-2-3-3 etc.) they work their way out of the early-game soft lock. Most of the time though it's too late or they can't go head to head with my creatures. If I have not established dominance around mid-game I generally lose.
If that's the case, it seems like all your land-recursion tech is distracting from beating face...
There is not much face beating going on, it plays a slower Threshold style of play. Early disruption and removal, mid-game weenies with advantages versus my opponent's and mid to late-game stompers which finish them off.
If you don't need much mana for anything but PD, why do you have so much mana-recursion, I guess is my point.
So much recursion as compared to what? The BW Pox has roughly the same amount of mana recursion. As for the mono-black, I havn't played it since around Mirage block, so I couldn't say, but I would assume that it runs a couple of crucibles as well.
As far as I can tell the recursion is fine. Maybe I havn't seen a better tuned version yet and am comparing mine to garbage. I generally keep roughly 2-3 lands on the table and late-game I have enough to power the manlands, recursion and draw engines.
mujadaddy
02-12-2008, 10:37 PM
Yes, "Lock" isn't precisely what I meant... I meant "denial of cards-in-hand and lands with which to cast cards" ... "Lock" as in "locked out" ... not a "hard lock" based on permanents...
Ok, so you're sinking SIX mana (over 2 turns usually) into PD... wow... that's a lot :wink: ... not that I have a better option, mind you, just putting it into your thought process.
"they work their way out of the early-game soft lock" -- I hear you. Generally, I can knock out early explosive plays from the opponent, then there's a whole lot of nothing while we both re-stabilize... That's why I'm a huge fan of The Rack, running 4. I can understand why PD would make you reject it though.
I don't think that this deck should GET to late game.... if you mean "late game" as in "an arbitrary amount of turns" that's fine, but if the game goes beyond ~10 full turns, the low # of threats the deck runs is going to bite you...
"So much recursion as compared to what?" -- as compared to no recursion. Presumably you've seen my mono:b: decklist (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=192782&postcount=430) in the Pox card discussion thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4300&page=11) (the change I'm vacillating between is 2 PK's vs. 2 SDT's maindeck -- if PK is main'ed, I put Pithing Needles in SB) -- read through the thread if you have some free time -- it has some very good discussion, like the Vaka Pox thread, about theory and execution with respect to Pox.
Before I go any further I must say that my sleeping medication has taken effect some hours ago.
I agree completely with everything up to this point...
I don't think that this deck should GET to late game.... if you mean "late game" as in "an arbitrary amount of turns" that's fine, but if the game goes beyond ~10 full turns, the low # of threats the deck runs is going to bite you...
I have increased the threat count to help that but I have sort of hit a plateau with the deck again. Mainly it's a question of: more threats OR more control. I wanted the deck to play very much like a Counter/Burn or Threshold deck, without using blue as the control color. It is getting closer to that and further from the Pox style of decks. Maybe at some point I'll start a different post as a new name and primer. For now though it's still more pox than anything else.
Optimally, I would like to control early game with attrition and kill mid-game with threats. I would like to be able to maintain control via attrition during the mid-game. Meaning, the creatures have to recur properly, be able to use/recur most if not all of my graveyard, and still have enough removal to hinder my opponent. It's style of play is getting closer to this goal but needs some work.
"So much recursion as compared to what?" -- as compared to no recursion. Presumably you've seen my mono decklist in the Pox card discussion thread (the change I'm vacillating between is 2 PK's vs. 2 SDT's maindeck -- if PK is main'ed, I put Pithing Needles in SB) -- read through the thread if you have some free time -- it has some very good discussion, like the Vaka Pox thread, about theory and execution with respect to Pox.
I was able to skim through your decklist. I had noticed some cards and wondered if they were the best choice to be in there. I wish not to speculate further until I have at least tested the deck. I do also read the BW Pox thread to see another perspective on dual color Pox. Looks like both dual color poxen are going for the same end goal; control through attrition and kill mid-game with maintained control and threats.
ninjabear
02-13-2008, 08:20 AM
EE doesn't hit enchantments either, correct.
Engineered explosives (I hope that's what EE stand for) DOES hit enchantments - unless they also happen to be a land.
The actual oracle text:
2 Mana, Sacrifice Engineered Explosives: Destroy each nonland permanent with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Engineered Explosives.
The good thing about Engineered Explosives is that they are selective in what they destroy. They will normally leave Mox Diamond on the table, that is also nice, and in fact have *good* synergy with that card (able to put 3 sunburst counters). They also have some kind of sinergy with Tarmogoyf (an artifact that normally ends up in your graveyard). Anyway, I wouldn't consider the explosives as a "board sweeper", but more as a selective bomb (specially against Empty the warrens).
But anyway I agree that maybe this is not the best deck to put the explosives in, as you can handle most artifacts and enchantments with green, and creatures with black, and all the Pox concept is around ruining the opponent's board.
A bit inspired from an old deck that won with Life from the Loam, Pox and Devastating dreams (the winner from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/ptkob06/legdecks, a Kobe Legacy tournament two years ago), is there room to add the Genesis/Eternal Witness "softlock" with Smallpox?
mujadaddy
02-13-2008, 10:47 AM
Engineered explosives (I hope that's what EE stand for) DOES hit enchantments - unless they also happen to be a land.
The actual oracle text:
2 Mana, Sacrifice Engineered Explosives: Destroy each nonland permanent with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Engineered Explosives.
I'm a moron. Ignore me.
Land: If you've got time, *please* test mono:b: Pox ... I've gotten busy since the start of the year and haven't touched any decks at all...
A bit inspired from an old deck that won with Life from the Loam, Pox and Devastating dreams (the winner from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...kob06/legdecks, a Kobe Legacy tournament two years ago), is there room to add the Genesis/Eternal Witness "softlock" with Smallpox?
Wow, that Genesis + Eternal Witness combo is new to me but definately powerful. It seems to be really mana intensive though, 2G for Genesis, 1GG for Witness then BB for SPox for a grand total of 3GGGBB. The double green is harder to cast but can be done. Eternal Witness has not been tested yet though. I have tried Regrowth in the past and I worked nicely with the exception that it too was mana intensive. Requiring 4 mana or more to redo a pox or Sinkhole effect didn't seem worth it at the time as compared to just drawing into a new attrition. I could definately see the Genesis/Witness being used if aiming for a late-game win, but I'm trying to finish them off before I would have 8 mana split 3/5 available.
Well I have been playing with this again. Some new cards have been printed making it worth playing around with again. I am very satisfied with this approach to black control.
4x Bayou
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Verdant Crossroads
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Cabal Pit
3x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Wasteland
3x Barren Moor
2x Nether Spirit
4x Tombstalker
4x Small Pox
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
2x Pox
2x Life from the Loam
3x Mox Diamond
4x Innocent Blood
4x Dark Ritual
The Tombstalker has always been a nice addition to Pox. Adding Nether Spirit fixes some issues with older variants not having recursion. The new Inquisition of Kozilek fixes the problem of Duress/Thoughtseize. Dropped Pernicious Deed in favour of more low cost removal. Sideboard cards would include:
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Krosan Grip
3x Naturalize
3x Infest
4x Engineered Plague
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Leyline of the Void
Along with other more standard sideboard options like Pithing Needle, etc.
Sughayyer
06-11-2012, 10:27 AM
I am currently testing a(nother) B/G version for this deck...
Sorceries:
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
4 smallpox
2 life from the loam
4 innocent blood
3 maelstrom pulse
1 worm harvest
Enchantments:
3 pernicious deed
Planeswalkers:
3 liliana of the veil
Artifacts:
3 mox diamond
Creatures:
4 bloodghast
Lands:
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou
4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
2 barren moor
1 tranquil thicket
2 forest
6 swamp
It's giving me nice results, playing at a local magic shop, in a meta with merfolks, goblins (sometimes), gw, burn and esper blade
I want to see more information in this thread, it seems like BG Pox is too good to not see some sort of play, or just that people really don't know how to count cards for Poxing.
Sughayyer
07-11-2012, 08:16 PM
Sometimes I still mess around with this deck... Current list is a bit different:
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 smallpox
4 innocent blood
3 life from the loam
3 maelstrom pulse
1 worm harvest
4 bloodghast
2 pernicious deed
3 mox diamond
3 liliana of the veil
lands:
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
3 bayou
1 forest
2 barren moor
1 tranquil thicket
4 swamp
sherko7
10-10-2012, 02:34 PM
Abrupt Decay is here! Time to retest this!:laugh:
caesar
10-11-2012, 10:53 AM
Grandmaster Duke himself revealed his work on LoamPox post RtR legality. For reference:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24933-Abrupt-Decay-And-Legacy-Pox.html
Links to premium articles are useless to the majority of us..
Oiolosse
10-11-2012, 11:46 AM
Links to premium articles are useless to the majority of us..
good thing at least somebody can read it.
Thanks Caesar for sharing.
sherko7
10-11-2012, 01:27 PM
Can anyone post the deck list ? :laugh:
lyracian
10-11-2012, 03:05 PM
Can anyone post the deck list ? :laugh:
I can not read the article either but it will be free to read in 30 days. Anyway we can all take a guess at the list. Just take a Loam-Pox list and stick some Decay's in.
Creatures
1 Nether Spirit
4 Bloodghast
Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 inquision of kozelek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Raven's Crime
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
Lands
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
lithiux
10-11-2012, 03:41 PM
In the comments of that article someone asked about the card Shrieking Afflication as a win condition, but it didn't really generate any conversation. I think that card looks really good, but I'm not sure what one would take out. I'm not really a fan of Worm Harvest; when do you want to use it? If you can reliably deal 3 damage per turn for no cost (and a casting cost of B), is there a scenario in which Worm Harvest is needed? Realistically, how many tokens does it create?
lyracian
10-11-2012, 03:57 PM
In the comments of that article someone asked about the card Shrieking Afflication as a win condition, but it didn't really generate any conversation. I think that card looks really good, but I'm not sure what one would take out. I'm not really a fan of Worm Harvest; when do you want to use it? If you can reliably deal 3 damage per turn for no cost (and a casting cost of B), is there a scenario in which Worm Harvest is needed? Realistically, how many tokens does it create?Depends how many lands are in your yard; you can create 3+ tokens a turn which is nice even if just for blockers.
I like Shrieking Afflication in mono-Black Pox; I am sure you could use it in Loam-Pox since you can focus on Raven's Crime to empty there hand it just does not play well with Pernicious Deed.
sherko7
10-12-2012, 01:59 PM
I am currently playtesting this list and I must say, I really love how the deck plays out:
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Raven's Crime
1 Worm Harvest
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Entomb
At the moment have only tested with U/W Stoneblade and Goblins, swept both matchups. I think Cabal Therapy could work better than Inquisition of Kozilek at some point, especially if the meta is predictable. I'd probably try a list that has 0 Hymn and 4 Therapies main but Hymn seems to powerful in this deck. I can see 4 more discards going to my board to kill combo.
I been playing in a couple of tournament with the following list:
Creatures
1 Nether Spirit
3 Bloodghast
Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
Other spells
3 entomb
2 Innocent blood
4 inquision of kozelek
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Raven's Crime
1 darkblast
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
Lands
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 black fetches
4 Wasteland
SB:
1 tabernacle at pendrell vale
3 duress
2 maelstrom pulse
4 layline of the void
2 krosan grip
1 karakas
2 perish
I m fairly new to the deck but it seems to perform very well against most decks. However, i had problem against burn and U/R delver. Do you have any suggestion how to play against them? I m thinking of playing chalice of the void/zuran orb/spinning darkness. Any opinion on these cards? Another problem I encountered was a resolved planeswalker...how do you deal with it? deed doesn t help here..I play maelstrom pulse/duress against them but sometimes it is not enough. I m thinking of replacing inquisition with thoughtseize MD but then I would struggle even more against very aggressive decks. Opinions are very much appreciated.
Last but not least, what do you guys think about entomb? I think it is awsome and I wonder why I don t see it often in B/G pox lists. It can tutor raven s crime, darkblast, life from the loam, nether spirit, bloodghast and utility lands if you have the loam engine going. A tutor for 1 mana seems pretty sweet to me. It basically tutors whatever you need at any given time: discard, removal, creatures and life from the loam.
Thank you in advance for your contribution!
sherko7
10-12-2012, 02:42 PM
Yeah Entomb is pretty nuts in this deck. It allows you to run a toolbox of sorts plus it gets your engine (LftL) online.
Burn seems like a pretty hard deck to fight through with this. Not even sure what to board against it. Hymn will help stall them, but due to the slow nature of this deck Burn can take its time and draw 3 damage per turn to break us.
Mr. Safety
10-12-2012, 07:26 PM
I am fairly new to the deck but it seems to perform very well against most decks. However, i had problem against burn and U/R delver. Do you have any suggestion how to play against them?
I am a long-time Loam player, but I almost always splash white in my decks. Regardless, I really like Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard. I have to mulligan rather aggressively, but against Burn and U/R Delver you can usually crawl out of that with some decent card advantage plays. I also use Kitchen Finks, but that is a little green-intensive for a fundamentally black deck to include. Just a thought, I'm a big fan of Leyline of Sanctity, it has value against a lot of matchups, Burn, U/R Delver, and even storm decks packing Tendrils, Brain Freeze, or Grapeshot. Leyline also has the great benefit of hosing targeted graveyard hate (Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt, Extirpate, Faerie Macabre, Scavenging Ooze) but doesn't help against RiP or Relic of Progenitus.
sherko7
10-12-2012, 10:37 PM
I am a long-time Loam player, but I almost always splash white in my decks. Regardless, I really like Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard. I have to mulligan rather aggressively, but against Burn and U/R Delver you can usually crawl out of that with some decent card advantage plays. I also use Kitchen Finks, but that is a little green-intensive for a fundamentally black deck to include. Just a thought, I'm a big fan of Leyline of Sanctity, it has value against a lot of matchups, Burn, U/R Delver, and even storm decks packing Tendrils, Brain Freeze, or Grapeshot. Leyline also has the great benefit of hosing targeted graveyard hate (Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt, Extirpate, Faerie Macabre, Scavenging Ooze) but doesn't help against RiP or Relic of Progenitus.
Was thinking the same card, but I'm hesitant about adding another color to BG Pox. Then again you can mull to Leyline G2-3 and then just use the spare copies as Liliana fodder. :laugh:
Leyline of sanctity seems pretty gamebreaker against those decks. Even though they all have outs from it: they can bounce it, empty the warrens or attack with creatures. I am attracted by the synergy of zuran orb + life from the loam but maybe it is too slow? It would be nice to find an answer usable from the graveyard though... the version of the deck with entomb open the possibility to have a graveyard toolbox but I cannot think of anything that would help against fast damage. The only thing I playtested was syphon life... it is sweet but it is still too slow... by the time you have life from the loam going and 3 mana open to cast it you are already dead. Any ideas?
Climax
10-13-2012, 08:33 AM
I like Zuran Orb in the LoamPox variants. Pretty much solves the Burn Problem
Hardcore
10-13-2012, 10:59 AM
A mix of threats and discard is the thing vs burn. They probably hate hymn to Tourach more than any other card In magic.
Landdestruction is also good. A hand full of spells and no lands left in play is pure anguish.
Remember that many burnspells cost more than 1cc.
Speaking of mana cost why not help then increase it for them?
thorn of Amethyst or sphere of resistance
Will also be good vs combo engine.
I went to a 36 man tournament, made it to top 8 and went into prices. Here is the list:
Creatures
1 Nether Spirit
1 Bloodghast
Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
Other spells
2 entomb
1 abrupt decay
4 inquision of kozelek
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Raven's Crime
1 darkblast
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
1 worm harvest
Artifacts
3 mox diamond
Lands
1 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 black fetches
4 Wasteland
1 karakas
SB:
1 tabernacle at pendrell vale
2 duress
2 maelstrom pulse
4 layline of the void
2 krosan grip
4 chalice of the void
Round 1: WRU aggro. He plays steppelynx, delver, grim lavamancer and a lot of burn. G1 I entomb for a darkblast and kill all his creatures. G2 I get to 1 life but his hand is empty due to liliana doing her job. I manage to kill him before he top decks a burn spell.
1-0
Round 2: BUR aggro. He plays blue and red spells similar to a RUG delver but replaces the green creatures with dark confidant and discard. G1 is quite close but I manage to keep the board clear and finish him off with factories. G2 his T1 inquisition removes a smallpox. T2 he plays a dark confidant that I dont manage to remove before his hand is full of good stuff. he finishes me with nivmagus elemental. G3 we go in topdeck mode but I have a liliana on the battlefield with a lot of counters :wink:
2-0
Round 3: D&T. G1 I play karakas on his karakas. I play 2 small poxes and he is mana screwed. I have a life from the loam going and win from there. G2 he plays rest in peace. That hutrts. I krosan grip it away but it is too late, he has a thalia down and too much pressure on the board. G3 he doesn t have grave hate, keep the board clear and win from there.
3-0
Round 4: esperblade. He runs me over both games. Surgical extract my life from the loam, wasteland and smallpoxes one game so i m left with nothing and counters all my relevant spells another game.
3-1
Round 5: high tide. G1 I start making him discard and I force him to the spot of "either I try now or I loose". Apparently he draws very good cards and manages to combo out. G2 I raven s crime all his hand away. G3 starts at few min left from the end. I am in a much better position, I have chalice@1 and chalice@2 on the board. I take him down to 2 life. Last turn possible I activate my 2 factories and he taps all my lands in response. It is a draw then... it sucks, I had 1 other turn and I would have won.
3-1-1
Round 6:sneak and show. G1 He puts an emrakul too fast and wins. I was tired and misplayed a lot. G2 and G3 I keep his hand empty and win from there. G3 was very closed: He had 1 card in hand, 1 sneak attack down and few lands on the board. I have a liliana on 6 and next turn I could hit for lethal. I ultimate liliana saying sneak attack or lands. He chooses lands. At the end of my turn he intuition for show and tell. He doesnt topdeck a fatty so I won.
4-1-1
Pros:
- mox diamond was amazing. I think I always won when I had it in my opening. Turn 1 hymn and T2 liliana is just brutal. It fixed my mana more than once helping having a green source. The life from the loam build basically makes the card disadvantage drawback irrelevant. Getting the opponent in topdeck mode as fast as possible is crucial for this deck and mox diamond helps incredibly much. I think that mana acceleration is needed and playing life from the loam makes mox diamond superior to dark ritual.
-entomb/ravens crime/darkblast package. I often entombed for darkblast keeping grim lavamancer, snapcaster mage, delver, dark confidant, mother of runes/vendillion clique away from the board. It is nice to dredge it so you can get life from the loam and bloodghast/spirit faster. Ravens crime was also very good in keeping people s hands clear. Loved it
-life from the loam. Ok we all know that it is good but in pox it is just broken. It makes seriously all cards in the deck better. It makes smallpox and liliana+1 virtually asymmetric. It nullifies the mox diamond card disadvantage. It feeds raven s crime and liliana. It makes you draw cards with barren moor. It looks for your win conditions at a speed of 3 cards a turn. It makes factory unkillable. It waste-lock your opponent. Just too good.
Cons:
-worm harvest. too slow. I ALWAYS wished it was a bloodghast/spirit/factory. I am gonna replace this with an extra bloodghast
-4 pernicius deed MD. It is an awsome card but it underperformed. I frequently wished it was something else. I will definetely keep some number of those MD but the full playset MD may be too much. I think I will replace one or two with abrupt decay or another bloodgast. I will maybe keep the playset in the 75 but I am not sure, I need more playtesting.
All in all I had tons of fun with the deck and I look forward for more playtesting!
lyracian
10-18-2012, 12:23 PM
I went to a 36 man tournament, made it to top 8 and went into prices. Here is the list:
All in all I had tons of fun with the deck and I look forward for more playtesting!
Well done. Keep up the poxin'
metamet
10-18-2012, 02:36 PM
Vengeful Pharaoh seems like a really fun Entomb target, especially if there is a Loam in the graveyard.
Sarterus
10-18-2012, 02:38 PM
I played Mini Pox (B/G) Monday at Card Kingdom's weekly legacy tournament in Seattle and it was amazing, my play needed a bit of work but the deck was great! I went 2-1-1 despite a few play mistakes and not knowing the deck well. This version has no dark rituals. Dark ritual is just terrible against daze, spell pierce, & force of will. I also like Cursed Scroll as a win con it kills delvers, mana dorks, goblins and brings back warm fuzzy thoughts of playing red in tempest.
Here is the list I played:
Land (25)
2x Barren Moor
4x Bayou (one too many)
1x Forest
2x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Swamp (1 or 2 too few)
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
Instant (4)
4x Abrupt Decay
Enchantment (2)
2x Pernicious Deed
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery (21)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse (wanted 1 more for Jace)
2x Pox
2x Sinkhole (Great!)
4x Smallpox
2x Thoughtseize
Artifact (3)
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Nihil Spellbomb (decent could be replaced with a win con)
Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit
Sideboard (15) (this needs work, it is anti Goblins and Maverick neither of which are big in Seattle right now)
1x Krosan Grip (Great)
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Leyline of the Void
1x Crop Rotation
4x Engineered Plague
4x Perish
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Grafdigger's Cage
I am a much better speaker than writer, my full deck tech and short tournament report are up on youtube at: http://youtu.be/RyavD9urnw0
Full deck list at: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mini-pox/
Cutting dark ritual from the list was the best thing improvement from earlier list I play tested. Mad props also to Maggidear from tapped out my play test partner and co-builder, also to Reid Duke foe his great legacy articles over at SCG.
@ Sarterus: did you like Nether Spirit? was it ever relevant? What about if he was a cursed scroll/bloodghast?
Are you happy with the 4:2 split between Abrupt Decay and Pernicious Deed?
I agree on dark ritual in the green version of pox. Have you ever tried mox diamond? I find it amazing in this deck.
How did the actual card pox perform? It does not seem too appealing to me. I would give those spots to deed/sinkhole/Abrupt Decay but I may be completely wrong
I wanna playtest cursed scroll. In theory it is a very good card but does it fit well in the green version of pox? I am afraid that not being recovable from the GY as opposite to nether spirit, bloodghast and mishra's factory is a huge thing. Opinions?
berksowl
10-19-2012, 12:52 PM
Abrupt Decay adds a lot to this. BG Pox was good enough for a SCG top 4 this past spring. Now I think it's much better.
It's that top 4 finish that put this deck on my radar. The deck belonged to Ali Aintrazi (sp?).
With Abrupt Decay, it's worth noting it can't hit creature lands, like Mishra's Factory, Dryad Arbor, Mutavault, etc.
I assume it gets around Judge's Familiar ( or Daze) without the tax, but not around Thalia or Trinisphere.
With these latest builds, I like Darkblast very much. It is so good against so many of the decks that rule the meta. I'm only lukewarm on Ravens Crime.
I want Dread of Night in my side, which is a meta call. Choke perhaps too, for the same reason. And options to deal with Storm, Omniscience, and Dredge.
Thanks for the contributions to this thread. I'm excited to play this deck.
I'm excited to play this deck.
I m happy that more people try out this deck, it feels very solid, you won t be disappointed :wink:. However, it does take a while before getting confident with the deck and not finding yourself in awkward situations after a wrong timed smallpox :tongue:
But yeah thalia is a bitch. Luckily she has only 1 thoughness so darkblast does the job (once again). You can also make them discard her T1. All our removals deal with her, she is annoying but she is by no means a gg. When I first builded this deck the thing I was most afraid of were GY hate cards game 2 and 3. My build especially relies a lot on GY. However, I was surprised by how much it can tolerate GY hate. A surgical extraction on your life from the loam is not gg. Tomodo s crypt, relic of progenitus and faerie macabre are all possible to play around. The only things you kind of have to deal with is layline of the void and RIP. However, if they mulligan to hard on them it can be that your only mishra s factory does the job or that T1 inquisition takes care of RIP. And there are very few decks that play this kind of hate anyway. Nevertheless, krosan grip is an amazing SB card :cool:
@berksowl: I feel I have to say something in defense to raven s crime. It is real good, i suggest you to try it in this deck. It has a perfect synergy with life from the loam and it keeps your opponent hand clear all game long. It is also a good card to discard with smallpox/liliana+1. It is a house against control and combo.
berksowl
10-20-2012, 12:10 PM
I'll continue to give Raven's Crime a chance. Here's my list at the moment:
BG Pox
2 Nether Spirit
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Darkblast
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pox
2 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
3 Choke
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
For the side, I really want to include Dread of Night for the Seattle meta, where we're seeing Death & Taxes a lot (though one less D&T pilot with me switching over to this build). But maybe of more general utility would be Night of Souls' Betrayal or Damnation. But also, maybe I should be more focused on match-ups that are our least favorable, like combo decks.
Any thoughts are welcome.
I really like your list. I think the right card against D&T for this deck is darkblast. Darkblast does what dread of night does but it has a wider spectrum. It also kills phyrexian revoker in D&T and delvers and nobles in other MUs. Also, one darkblast can kill X/2 guys like stoneforge if you cast it in the upkeep and then dredge it. And it fits better with the rest of the deck (GY friendly). But I can see you already pack 2 in your main deck so you should be fine. If you want a way to tutor for it just add a couple of entomb to the deck. In that way you will have 4 virtual copies of both darkblast and raven s crime. 4 virtual copies of darkblast should crush D&T.
I am not a fan of playing basic forests, not having black mana sucks, but I guess it is just matter of taste.
On the othe hand I don t like your SB much. You don t have any outs to burn or fast aggressive decks. I think you should fit chalice of the void in there. It would also help you against combo. maybe you can remove choke? Choke is slow and you are gonna crush control anyway with raven s crime.
By the way why playing 2 nether spirits rather than a 1/1 split between spirit and bloodghast?
I look forward to hear how the deck performs! :smile:
Shawon
10-20-2012, 05:02 PM
I'm surprised that people playing this deck and its mono-black progenitor haven't caught on to how a 1-of Maze of Ith is aMAZEing in both variants. Perhaps it's because most people who think about adding Maze try to think of a land to cut for it and ending up sticking with the land that taps for mana, which isn't how you want to think about Maze. You want to think about cutting a spell for Maze of Ith, likely another removal spell.
Here's my explanation I used when I used to play both Smallpox variants and posted in the Pox thread. It's still relevant today:
Now I'm trying Maze of Ith. I'm noticing a big improvement and I think I just learned something about deckbuilding. Here's why Maze of Ith is an excellent choice for the flex removal slot:
1. The slot is for targeted removal because the 4th MD Innocent Blood is unnecessary. Maze of Ith functions as targeted removal, and it's immune to any color-based protection that some creatures may have (Etched Champion).
2. It's a land. It doesn't produce mana, but if you have Urborg on the battlefield, you not only have your next land drop but you have a land that has a double duty of being a removal spell.
3. It's a land. Stated again because of Smallpox and Pox. Maze of Ith gives you an opportunity to preserve your mana sources while casting your Smallpox effects. On the subject of deflecting attention from your mana sources, Maze of Ith can also be used to draw your opponent into saccing Wasteland, and we all know how we like the opponent doing our work of destroying their manabase for us.
4. It's a land. Stated again because of Liliana. Drawing a Maze after you have Liliana online means you can just play it and not have to discard an otherwise removal spell. Every advantage counts.
I guess I will add "5. It's a land. Stated again because you don't have to worry about it getting hit by targeted discard spells that only hit nonland cards."
I have been to a small tournament, about 30 people. I started at 3-0 and finished 3-3. Pretty disappointing but that is just how it is sometimes.
I played my usual list with a few changes:
+2 bloodghast
-1 worm harvest
-2 pernicius deed
+1 maelstrom pulse
R1 vr UW miracle, win 2-0. I kept him low of mana and the only time he managed to play entreat the angels I had a deed.
R2 vr D&T, win 2-0. I have a darkblast going both games.
R3 vr deadguy ale, win 2-0. I raven s crime his hand away and manascrew him both games.
R4 vr D&T, loss 2-0. I had everything I wished for, he had even more.
R5 esperblade, loss 2-0. He plays very well both matches while I fix his mana with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth :frown:.
R6 BUG, loss 2-1. G1 is very closed, he is dow to 2 life I am down at 1 life. So close. He plays an extra creature and wins. G2 I mana screw him. G3 I raven s crime his hand away. He is low on mana but manages to draw a sylvan library. I am at 4 life, he is a 4 life. His library finds him goyfs and win from there.
The loss against D&T was too ridiculus, he drew every single turn the best card he could have drawn that turn. G2 I manage to go through a tomodo s crypt, relic of progenitus and rest in peace. After that I am at 4 life and he is at 7 life. I have my GY filled with bloodghast. He has a board with vial@3, serra angel+jitte, mom and pyrexian revoker naming liliana. He named liliana even though he did not know at this point whether i was playing her at all. And of course I had 2 liliana in my hand :tongue:. I play deed with 2 mana open and pop deed for 2. He responds by vialling Flickerwisp and removing serra avenger. GG for him, he played well anyway.
G5 and G6 I ended up in some awkward situations that make me do some thinking... I ended up missing some land drops because of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth... What is the point of mana screw them if you then fix their mana with an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth?. It happened that I had to play Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and they got obvious benefits from that. It also happened that I didn t play Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth not to fix their mana and then should have needed that. I dont really know what to do about that. It is simply awsome to turn your mishra s factory and tabernacle into swamps when you need to cast hymn and liliana. But it is really frustrating to loose games because of it. Maybe I ll try to cut 1 (or 2?) and see how it performs.
Also, sylvan library is a bitch. If you don t have a fast clock it is gonna steal you the game eventually. I wished I played more abrupt decay.
By the way I was content on how bloodghast performed. The fact that you don t have to invest any mana in getting a clock going is really good. You can spend your time loaming and disrupting the opponent while bloodghast gets online and start beating. The fact that it gets haste is also very relevant, so that the opponent doesn t have time to recover after a sweeper.
@ Shawon: I think maze of it is an OK card in this deck and it could be played. However, I don t like it for the simple reason that it doesn t get rid of the problem. You cannot attack with your mishra s factory if you have a 5/6 tarmogoyf in front of you. We need to have the board clean. It is not good enough to deserve a spot between the lands and It is not good enough to deserve a spot between the removal spells. I d rather play a more stable mana base or play an extra abrupt decay than playing maze of ith. However, I think it is mostly a matter of taste.
Shawon
10-22-2012, 07:42 PM
@ Shawon: I think maze of it is an OK card in this deck and it could be played. However, I don t like it for the simple reason that it doesn t get rid of the problem. You cannot attack with your mishra s factory if you have a 5/6 tarmogoyf in front of you. We need to have the board clean. It is not good enough to deserve a spot between the lands and It is not good enough to deserve a spot between the removal spells. I d rather play a more stable mana base or play an extra abrupt decay than playing maze of ith. However, I think it is mostly a matter of taste.
It's not a matter of taste if you think are flat-out better cards.
I actually scrolled up and looking at your list, I can understand why you wouldn't want Maze instead of other removal as you really don't have too much, given that another portion of your deck is focused on abusing the graveyard. My Smallpox variants were streamlined to just contain Attrition + Lands + Trumps and used minimal graveyard abuse (Nether Spirit & Dakmor Salvage w00t w00t), and I definitely think Maze is a wonderful card in such variants because it preserves itself in the long game of attrition. Although, I don't think Maze would be horrible in your deck, either. You have LftL and Entomb, so having the option to Entomb for a Maze if you have Loam in your hand gives you an option to buy time until you land any bombs (Liliana, Deed, Pox). But I can understand your need to prioritize removal. I would make some critiques on the other removal you're using, but I have retired from playing Smallpox decks and besides, I only wanted to talk about Maze.
berksowl
10-23-2012, 01:31 AM
Ugh.
Went 0-2 tonight (at Card Kingdom in Seattle), then got a bye, and decided not to wait around an hour to play one final round.
Lost Round 1 to Mono-Red Burn. Not a good matchup, and my discard and land destruction didn't do a thorough enough job to overcome the odds.
Round 2 I played Bant Stoneblade. Or call it WUG Delver with a Stoneblade pakcage and Swords to Plowshares. Anyway, again, it wasn't pretty. To summarize the matchup, I wasn't able to draw or play answers at the rate he was playing threats.
I need to improve when it comes to choosing when to draw versus when to dredge. That seems like a big hurdle for the pilot of a BG Pox deck to overcome. I'd like to play enough of the deck to have a good sense from one game to the next which situations demand drawing and which dredging. For now, it seems like when I'm stable in terms of board state and I need to find a win-con, I should dredge. If I like my hand, it's okay to dredge. If I need a big answer that I don't have (and a Darkblast in the GY won't cut it), I need to draw. This is a gross oversimplification, but I'm just trying to articulate some rules of thumb while I gain experience enough to have good instincts with the deck.
I did bring in two Entomb before tonight, removing two Pox. They seemed okay, and certainly the Pox would not have been worse. In fact, I doubt I would have been able to cast the Pox at any point.
I would make some critiques on the other removal you're using, but I have retired from playing Smallpox decks and besides, I only wanted to talk about Maze.
I would love to hear what you have to say, please go on. I think that everybody can benefit from that.
@berksowl: the "gross oversimplification" is correct. But you are right that sometimes the line is not that clear. It takes a while before feeling confident playing with this deck and that is the reason why my build is so GY-centered. Unless I have to answer a permanent I want to dredge. Hence, I want that many cards in my deck do something from the GY.
By the way Mono-Red Burn is possibly the worst MU for this deck so dont be too disappointed :wink:, it s gonna be better next tournament.
berksowl
10-29-2012, 01:18 PM
I played BG Pox yesterday at another event at Card Kingdom in Seattle. It was a 31-person event I think, and I went 1-3-1. I didn't play brilliantly, but I think I'm learning a thing or two about how to play with some cards that are pretty new to me. My list is attached at the end for reference, including some weird new tech.
Round 1, I was paired against RUG Delver. I lost miserably in game 1 once he flipped a Delver, countered my Smallpox, flipped another Delver, and countered another Smallpox. Round 2 I was able to wipe away his board and get Liliana ticking ever upward. He attacked into Liliana when I had an Entomb in my hand, which I cast in response putting Vengeful Pharaoh in my GY and targeting his Goyf. Then I won with two Assembly Workers. Game 3 was similar to Game 2, except that I was able to cast the Pharaoh and win faster.
Round 2 I lost in two to a UB Tezzeret/Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek deck. I never had a chance, especially not with bad mulliganing in Game 2.
Round 3 and 4 I lost to RUG Delver. With Bloodghast and Pharaoh as my creatures, there's not much I can do against an attacking Mongoose, except block and attempt to pump and trade with an Assembly Worker. This wasn't a winning strategy, and I couldn't find the cards that would have bailed me out, and I couldn't get going with the Loam/dredge cycle to find them via the GY.
Round 5 I drew with UW Miracles. I won Game 1, taking about 37 minutes to win. Abrupt Decay was huge, as was a resolved Liliana. Once I had cast Life from the Loam once, I was able to use Raven's Crime to strip has hand completely. Late game I had a handful of lands in my GY, I cracked four more fetches, only finding two lands to replace them, then cast a second Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to legend rule the other one. If ever someone telegraphed a forthcoming Worm Harvest... But he had been floating a Force of Will with his three Tops in play, and he hardcast it. I was then able to win without retracing the Worm Harvest with two Bloodghast and an Assembly Worker. Game 2, he resolved an early Rest in Peace. I very quickly got Liliana up to be able to perform her ultimate, and I made him choose between his RIP and a top Top and four lands. He took the Top and lands. Next turn he cast another RIP, and then Enlightened Tutored for a Helm of Obedience. Game over, with no time for a Game 3.
2 Bloodghast
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
3 Entomb
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
SB
2 Damnation
2 Duress
2 Coffin Purge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Zuran Orb
thank you for the report!
The Vengeful Pharaoh tech seems awsome. Does it actually work? It seems like it was relevant R1 to get rid of his goyf. Round 3 and 4 you say it was awkward because it cannot target mongoose, however, it can get rid of 2/3 of RUG delver creatures so it seems very relevant anyway. We play smallpox/deed that can get rid of mongoose. Apart from hexproof/shroud creatures, is Vengeful Pharaoh reliable enough as creature hate? I really want to try it out.
It sounds like Worm Harvest was cluncky, did you wish it was another win condition?
Did you miss nether spirit at any time?
how did you like the 4-1-1 split Abrupt Decay-Maelstrom Pulse-Pernicious Deed?
thanks!
berksowl
10-29-2012, 04:32 PM
thank you for the report!
The Vengeful Pharaoh tech seems awsome. Does it actually work? It seems like it was relevant R1 to get rid of his goyf. Round 3 and 4 you say it was awkward because it cannot target mongoose, however, it can get rid of 2/3 of RUG delver creatures so it seems very relevant anyway. We play smallpox/deed that can get rid of mongoose. Apart from hexproof/shroud creatures, is Vengeful Pharaoh reliable enough as creature hate? I really want to try it out.
It sounds like Worm Harvest was cluncky, did you wish it was another win condition?
Did you miss nether spirit at any time?
how did you like the 4-1-1 split Abrupt Decay-Maelstrom Pulse-Pernicious Deed?
thanks!
Vengeful Pharaoh works, yes. But maybe not well enough and not enough of the time. It is perhaps "too cute." It's really more of a defensive card, and something that has to be played around, sort of like a Ghostly Prison. But as long as they're playing around it, it's not going to come out of the GY. So in that way, it's pretty conditional as a win con. But the things I like about it: With an Entomb in hand, and a Pharaoh in my library, that first attack phase for them is a real shock. If I have mana to cast it the next turn, then I've just put them on a pretty short clock. If I dredge it into my GY, a lot of players won't notice it or won't take the time to read it. Then when they attack and I (or a planeswalker I control) take damage and I mention that it triggers, they're surprised.
Granted, I don't want to base my opinion of the card in what mediocre players will do against the card. But even a good player needs to figure out a way to deal with the triggered ability. And since I'm playing it on the slot where I'd generally be playing 2x Cursed Scroll or 2x The Rack, I really like that I don't need to draw into it.
That feels like this decks weakness: It has trouble finding the answers that it must draw into. Liliana. Abrupt Decay. Maelstrom Pulse. Pernicious Deed. Hymn and Inquisition of Kozilek do best in your opening hand, but you don't want to rely on starting the game with those other four spells in your hand. It makes me want to play 2x Mirri's Guile. Curious to hear what others think of that. It would help a lot with a Loam or Darkblast int he GY, in order to know whether to draw or dredge.
I think Deed belongs in my SB. I'll probably play 2x Maelstrom Pulse from now on.
Worm Harvest is clunky, but as a one-of I think it makes sense.
The Bloodghasts weren't great. Nether Spirit is good, but with the Vengeful Pharaohs it doesn't make as much sense. I've tested 2x Stinkweed Imp in place of the Bloodghast/Nether Spirit. It works well to get other dredge cards into the yard, or to get Pharaoh into the yard, but it's slower to get into play as an attacker. And also, since Pharaoh is a zombie, I've thought of 4x Gravecrawler.
That feels like this decks weakness: It has trouble finding the answers that it must draw into. Liliana. Abrupt Decay. Maelstrom Pulse. Pernicious Deed. Hymn and Inquisition of Kozilek do best in your opening hand, but you don't want to rely on starting the game with those other four spells in your hand. It makes me want to play 2x Mirri's Guile. Curious to hear what others think of that. It would help a lot with a Loam or Darkblast int he GY, in order to know whether to draw or dredge.
And also, since Pharaoh is a zombie, I've thought of 4x Gravecrawler.
I think you are right, the deck could immensly benefit from library manipulation. We want to force the game to go in topdeck mode but if the opponent has casted a top or a sylvan library we are often going to get screwed. It happened to me multiple times. There are some good options out there mirri s guile, Sensei's Divining Top, sylvan library. The problem I have with all those is that they are not recurrable from the GY. Also, what would you cut for it? I can only see cutting entomb. It is worth a try I think. However, I would be more inclined to play either top or guile since library costs 2 mana.
I think gravecrawler will always be worse than bloodghast in this deck.
I have 2 things buzzing in my head and I d like to hear someone s opinion. The first thing is 4 dark confidant in the SB. Lands decks do that. People will side in GY hate and will side out creature removals against us. An unanswered T2 dark confidant is many times gg and we have a pretty low mana curve anyway. Ok, it doesn t synergise with smallpox but it may be worth a try?
The second thing is a bit more far out. I was thinking about using Buried Ruin to get even more value out of the GY. In that case it would be less awkward to dredge away sweepers because we could recur them. I am thinking of life from the loam + buried ruin + Engineered explosives/oblivion stone. In that case I could swap Pernicious deed/maelstom pulse to EE/oblivion stone. That could allow a dredged Sensei's Divining Top to be played as well. I may be going too far but I was just considering it.
went to a 31 players event and ended up 4-2. Won against D&T, BUG (shardless agent), food chain-Misthollow Griffin combo and infect. Lost against BUG control and Deadguy ale. This time I added to the deck 3 sensei s divining top, 1 engineering explosives, 1 buried ruin and 1 (extra) darkblast. I neither played entomb nor maelstrom pulse and liliana/inquisition of kozilek went down to 3 copies.
My loss to BUG control was due to a jace one game and tombstalker the other game. The loss to Deadguy ale was due to plainswalkers one game and too many spirit tokens the other game.
take home messages:
sensei s divining top was really good, even better than I expected. If you have a loam/darkblast in the graveyard you can look at 6 cards deep every turn meaning that you are gonna find the liliana/deed/abrupt decay you are looking for. Dark confidant was good especially with top, but not extraordinary. The same was for buried ruin/Engineering explosives.
Yonthan
11-05-2012, 12:42 AM
Hi everyone,
I know this question may sounds stupid but I would appreciate if you guys could enlighten me about it: I know it's pretty obvious that "Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth" adds the basic land type swamp to the other lands, but why is it that necessary to have that? Is it because of the double black mana cost of some of the cards?
Thanks!
Hi everyone,
I know this question may sounds stupid but I would appreciate if you guys could enlighten me about it: I know it's pretty obvious that "Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth" adds the basic land type swamp to the other lands, but why is it that necessary to have that? Is it because of the double black mana cost of some of the cards?
Thanks!
Yup, It is a necessity to have some number of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. You want to reliably have double black by turn 2 and you cannot do without 4 Mishra's Factory and 4 Wasteland. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is a necessary evil.
berksowl
11-05-2012, 10:34 PM
Yup, It is a necessity to have some number of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. You want to reliably have double black by turn 2 and you cannot do without 4 Mishra's Factory and 4 Wasteland. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is a necessary evil.
It's always fun to be able to tap a fetchland or even, say, a Maze of Ith for black mana. It's also cool if you're playing a Swampwalk creature.
Yonthan
11-06-2012, 12:44 AM
It's always fun to be able to tap a fetchland or even, say, a Maze of Ith for black mana. It's also cool if you're playing a Swampwalk creature.
Thanks for answering. I noticed that most of the list run Nether Spirit/Bloodgast/Factories, so is there any good quality swampwalk creature we would put in the maindeck or even sideboard? And since Urborg fixes opponents' lands as well, will you guys think that it's a drawback?
berksowl
11-06-2012, 01:01 PM
Filth is a creature with Swampwalk that's been suggested for Pox decks, though I've not tested it.
I played against a variation of this deck splashing white. He had Swords to Plowshares and Lingering Souls from white. For discard he played Cabal Therapies (very good with Lingering Souls) in addition to Hymn to Tourachs. He had at least 2 Maze of Iths (could be a total of 3 or 4 I don't know) and a number of Crop Rotations to find his utility lands. It gave my RUG deck a run for its money.
I really liked the splash for white as it gave him a lot of spot removal power (in addition to Abrupt Decays). Also the Lingering Souls-Cabal Therapy package is better against combo than Thoughtseize/Kozilek. The same goes for the Raven's Crime as well but having Lingering Souls in there recurring multiple times gives this deck a lot of power since its going for heavy resource denial and Lingering Souls is an incredible resource boost to further unbalance things.
Yonthan
11-08-2012, 10:17 AM
I played against a variation of this deck splashing white. He had Swords to Plowshares and Lingering Souls from white. For discard he played Cabal Therapies (very good with Lingering Souls) in addition to Hymn to Tourachs. He had at least 2 Maze of Iths (could be a total of 3 or 4 I don't know) and a number of Crop Rotations to find his utility lands. It gave my RUG deck a run for its money.
I really liked the splash for white as it gave him a lot of spot removal power (in addition to Abrupt Decays). Also the Lingering Souls-Cabal Therapy package is better against combo than Thoughtseize/Kozilek. The same goes for the Raven's Crime as well but having Lingering Souls in there recurring multiple times gives this deck a lot of power since its going for heavy resource denial and Lingering Souls is an incredible resource boost to further unbalance things.
Did he run any Life from the Loam, and did you run stifles?
Chatto
11-24-2012, 02:21 PM
Hello everybody,
Some of my favorite cards would be Sinkhole and Pox and I always wanted to play them in Legacy. So i looked into mono Black Pox, but wasn't convinced yet. But after stumbling across this version, I wanted to give it a try. Being a longtime Goblin- and dedicated BG Nic Fit-player, I brew up this build I would like to share:
Creatures (4)
4 Bloodghast
Spells (29)
1 Pox (perhaps being the third LftL?)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Wurm Harvest
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicous Deed
3 Sinkhole (swap one for a Liliana?)
4 Smallpox
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Land (25)
2 Forest
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
Still missing some cards, but I will be able to play the deck without proxies after the holidays. I'm also still thinking about a sideboard (i'm from Europe, and almost everything goes here): I only know it will be having something against aggro and combo.
Being new to this threat I am eager to hear your thoughts about the following:
1) How many copies of LftL do you guys recon should be standard? I would go for two, but i see some playing three.
2) I like playing Bloodghast, it works with the engine. So why would I go for Nether Spirit?
3) Playing Bloodghast would also make it possible to play Cabal Therapy. I am planning to swap the Hymns for Therapies. On the other hand Hymn helps getting your opponent in topmode very fast, so maybe swap the Inquisitions for Therapies? Have someone already done/ tried this?
4) How many copies of Liliana's should be standard? I would go for two, maybe three.
5) Would it be a plan to make some sort of list of standard cards this (awesome) deck would and should run?
Thanks in advance.
Claymore
11-24-2012, 03:03 PM
I would imagine 3 Liliana would be better, and 4 AD seems excessive, probably go with 3 each of AD and Liliana.
Nether spirit is great because it has no criteria for coming back apart from deck construction, so constant Therapy fodder if you run that too. As a Bxx control player I prefer Therapies, but this creature light deck may have trouble flashing it back. Hymns are also heavily debated in general due to their randomness, but most decks aren't Pox. You do have good recursion, so I'd experiment between Hymn and Therapy in my opinions. IoK is pretty solid.
Some of my favorite cards would be Sinkhole and Pox and I always wanted to play them in Legacy. So i looked into mono Black Pox, but wasn't convinced yet. But after stumbling across this version, I wanted to give it a try. Being a longtime Goblin- and dedicated BG Nic Fit-player, I brew up this build I would like to share:
---------
1) How many copies of LftL do you guys recon should be standard? I would go for two, but i see some playing three.
2) I like playing Bloodghast, it works with the engine. So why would I go for Nether Spirit?
3) Playing Bloodghast would also make it possible to play Cabal Therapy. I am planning to swap the Hymns for Therapies. On the other hand Hymn helps getting your opponent in topmode very fast, so maybe swap the Inquisitions for Therapies? Have someone already done/ tried this?
4) How many copies of Liliana's should be standard? I would go for two, maybe three.
5) Would it be a plan to make some sort of list of standard cards this (awesome) deck would and should run?
Thanks in advance.
Nice to see that more people are attracted to this deck :wink:. I think we need more people into this deck, there is a large pool of playable cards but it hasn t been playtested enough. However, I think that the disruption sloths are pretty fixed: 5+ 1cc discard (iok/thoughtseize/therapy/raven's crime), 4 hymn, 3-4 liliana, 3-4 abrupt decay. The rest of the deck can change a lot:
-The mana base should always contain 4 wasteland, 4 mishra's factory and some number of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth but the rest is very different from list to list.
-The win conditions are different in every version of BG pox that I see. I feel like this is the part of the deck that needs more playtest.
to your questions:
1) You always want to see one but you don t want to see the second. I personally prefer to play 3 but I think the right number is 2-3 and depends on your list.
2) I like bloodghast as well but the great thing about spirit is that it can block forever. Sometimes that is crucial to buy you time to stabilize. If you play entomb it is also a nice target. However, nether spirit and bloodghast are not mutually exclusive. If you have both spirit ang ghast in the GY you need to play a land to bring back the gast and next turn the spirit is ready to rock.
3) I think the 4 hymns are holy untouchable. If you want to add therapies I would mess up with the other 1cc discard.
4) liliana is so good that I would play her as a 3-of as a minimum.
5) That would be great. But as I mentioned earlier there is a lot of variation in the lists I have seen so far. The only thing slightly settled is the disruption package. Maybe someone wants to give it a try anyway?
Sughayyer
11-25-2012, 11:21 PM
Hi guys. It's been a while since I last posted in this forum, and I'm usually a Rock player.
I've been experimenting with a few things regarding bg pox for a while. What do you think of this:
3 IoK
3 seize
2 raven's crime
3 innocent blood
1 darkblast
4 smallpox
3 abrupt decay
2 pernicious deed
3 liliana otv
3 life from the loam
3 bloodghast
3 lingering souls
manabase is the usual everyone's running (waste mishra etc) but with 3 cycle lands and a miser scrubland for souls (27 lands total).
Another possible route is mox diamonds and 4 bloodghasts, dropping to 26 lands. Comments?
@Sughayyer: it seems like a solid list. I want to try lingering souls myself since it looks amazing on paper. I am an advocate of mox diamond, splashing white reinforces its inclusion. 3 cycle lands seem too many to me.
Sughayyer
11-26-2012, 12:40 PM
@fimo
thanks. Regarding the moxen, I wasn't clear I think... I meant, to add them, I'd probably cut lingering souls... But I really don't want to do so. L. Souls are great beaters (as far as they can be) and they also help to stall long enough to stabilize. Not to mention, they leave an open door for cabal therapy. I think the match-up against aggro is very favorable, and with this quantity of disruption, the combo matches are quite good as well. And lingering souls is a good card to play against control.
I need to test more, but I'm liking it a lot.
EDIT: I just realized I could go 3 moxen, drop to 25 lands and play 61 cards... Comments?
Chatto
11-26-2012, 04:05 PM
EDIT: I just realized I could go 3 moxen, drop to 25 lands and play 61 cards... Comments?
How would your list look like? Less removal, maybe drop P.D. to one main and one to the board? P.D. would knock your own Mox out of play, so I think i would keep four copies of A.D (I really like the fact it can hit almost everything in Legacy) or make a 3/2 split between A.D/ Pulse. I like the idea of using L.S.: between Factories, Ghast and L.S. it makes C.T. a really viable option to play. I would try some build like (keep in mind I'm trying to fit it into my own deck):
Creatures (4)
4 Bloodghast
Spells (25)
1 Pernicous Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Life from the Loam
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
Planeswalker (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Artifact (3)
3 Mox Diamond
Land (25)
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
It has been mentioned by Bilb_o that white also brings StP, which can be used as a SB-option?
Sughayyer
11-26-2012, 05:14 PM
@chatto
tempo decks like the early team america, junk and eva green like the sheer advantage of hymn to tourach... I think we do not need it playing pox for 2 reasons:
1) we are not fast enough to gain advantage out of the momentum a successful hymn gives to us.
2) we don't want to hit 2 random cars, since most of the cards our opponents play are already dead (their removals, for example).
Regarding stp:
the white is for the case of casting LS from hand... But if we stabilized and are alreading dredgeing every turn, we'll most likely cast it from the grave. Adding stp forces the manabase in a certain direction and it may not be optimal for the premise of this deck.
One more thing: on side, I added O-rings to deal with omniscience, and tarmogoyves, because the opponents usually board their removals out... And it's cool to see their faces when you throw a goyf out of nowhere :D
Chatto
12-02-2012, 11:33 AM
I understand your reasoning, and do agree that we dont we fully benefit from the full power of Hymn. However, I disagree (after some thinking and testing) for the following reasons:
1) Hymn's purpose is getting your opponent into 'topdeck'-mode. You don't hit two random cards, you hit two cards.
2) Hymn must be answered by a lot of decks, thus removing counterspells.
3) In the build using Mox and Liliana you can (theoretically) 'speed things up', meaning that you can 'kill' their hand within a couple of turns.
Maybe four Hymn's are a bit too much, but I am not as sceptical as I used to be. About LS; it would be great with CT, thus maybe split between Hymn and CT?
Sughayyer
12-03-2012, 11:11 PM
@chatto
cabal therapy serves a different purpose than hymn to tourach. If the goal is to empty your opponent's hand then cast a liliana, I'd suggest crime + hymn. But there are a lot of topdecks that can cause you trouble if you don't get liliana online in time.
It' been a while since I last played this deck tho, in the last weeks I'm toiling around Junk.
Kazadoom
12-05-2012, 08:00 AM
I wondered if GB Pox could include Living wish to fetch whatever is needed at the moment, similar to Ali Aintrazis list that was discussed in this article:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23731_Legacy_Week_Pox.html
We could run Dark Dephts + Hexmage as "combo finish" and other (utility) lands or creatures.
berksowl
12-17-2012, 08:52 PM
Quiet in the BG Pox thread as of late. Are a lot of Pox players jumping over to some sort of BUG list? It looked like Abrupt Decay would be a huge help to this deck, and it seems like its been very good. But for as good as its been, Deathrite Shaman has been better for certain other decks, and it seems natural that with the high-profile results its been getting, people would make the switch over to a BUG list. But I'm hoping there's still untapped potential in this blue-less archetype.
Is Deathrite Shaman good for our Pox deck? Seems a reasonable question since half of the lists in the Top 8 of the Legacy Open at SCG Los Angeles included it. Half of the Top 8 Legacy decks in the Invitational also included it. BUG Control, BUG Delver, Elves, and Aggro Loam all found a spot for it.
That said, I can't think of why we'd want it. It doesn't recur from the graveyard, and with Loam we don't need the mana fixing so much once we have the Loam engine going. And if we're not including it, 2x Cursed Totem seems like a good sideboard option.
I wondered if GB Pox could include Living wish to fetch whatever is needed at the moment, similar to Ali Aintrazis list that was discussed in this article:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23731_Legacy_Week_Pox.html
We could run Dark Dephts + Hexmage as "combo finish" and other (utility) lands or creatures.
The HexDepths combo is something I've been curious about as well. I'd like to test it. And I'm interested to hear from people who have tested it. But for what its worth, Ali Aintrazi write an article for SCG Premium just after his Top 8 with that list back in March, and he said he'd not include that HexDepths package in the list in future. It wasn't good enough, wasn't what he wanted to be doing with the deck.
Kazadoom
12-18-2012, 04:30 AM
In his list he basically had to entomb both cards and recur them via life from loam and Volraths Stronghold.
Living Wish could shorten this process significantly,
but I think the deck needs a lot of adaptation.
I am also wondering why cycle lands are not run in conjunction with Life?
Overall I considered if for budget reasons and to be able to include things like Death's shadon in the board for funsies.
But until I can get my hands on Verdant catacombs I will stick to Mono-B Pox
caesar
12-18-2012, 06:07 AM
Quiet in the BG Pox thread as of late. Are a lot of Pox players jumping over to some sort of BUG list? It looked like Abrupt Decay would be a huge help to this deck, and it seems like its been very good. But for as good as its been, Deathrite Shaman has been better for certain other decks, and it seems natural that with the high-profile results its been getting, people would make the switch over to a BUG list. But I'm hoping there's still untapped potential in this blue-less archetype.
Is Deathrite Shaman good for our Pox deck? Seems a reasonable question since half of the lists in the Top 8 of the Legacy Open at SCG Los Angeles included it. Half of the Top 8 Legacy decks in the Invitational also included it. BUG Control, BUG Delver, Elves, and Aggro Loam all found a spot for it.
That said, I can't think of why we'd want it. It doesn't recur from the graveyard, and with Loam we don't need the mana fixing so much once we have the Loam engine going. And if we're not including it, 2x Cursed Totem seems like a good sideboard option.
The HexDepths combo is something I've been curious about as well. I'd like to test it. And I'm interested to hear from people who have tested it. But for what its worth, Ali Aintrazi write an article for SCG Premium just after his Top 8 with that list back in March, and he said he'd not include that HexDepths package in the list in future. It wasn't good enough, wasn't what he wanted to be doing with the deck.
Hey I am still working on the deck and do not think we need DRS for the reasons you already mentioned. However I cannot say I wasnt tempted dropping all Smallpoxes for Shamans ;) But dont like to be the fairy player in a fairy environment, so we should fight all these. I've gone down from a 3-3 Loam-Entomb package to 2-2 and am now cutting further to 1 of each. Its hard to employ the Loam engine while DRS is either removing its namesake or the lands you would want to recur (which cant be insta-dredged with some tricks). Further even if you dont face a DRS-deck or anything with RIP or Ooze maindeck, recurring wastelands arent that strong anymore as people got ages adapting their manabase to play around possible wasteland screws and most people do so. That being said its still good to have the engine in drawn out games to generate massive CA at some point, but I dont like to focus on it.
I think a solution to DRS is Rest in Peace, we should go for that, it also hurts a lot of other creatures in decks sporting DRS (knights, oozes, goyfs, Snapcasters). Furthermore in previous iterations of the deck I trimmed on Cursed Scrolls. But, while still being awfully slow, it handles the Shaman (+ all other creatures affected by RiP, the synergy seems promising as well). So I will include more Scrolls back in the deck, they have always been a great wincondition anyway.
White also opens up Vindicate which I am more fond of than e.g. StP. I noticed problems in permanents that reached the table with CMC>3, namely Planeswalker like Jace, Else an Tezzeret. They dodge Abrupt Decay, Explosives and Inquisition of Kozilek. Vindicate could help in here while also, unlike Malstroem Pulse, help keep their side of table clear from lands. Although it may sound like blasphemy I will cut on Decays as they are only really good versus Counterbalance. The problem with 1 uncounterable Spell is that it delays the counterspell, whereas it wouldve been nice to bait sometimes.
Suggestions for Lingering Souls are also seeming a good way to fight Planeswalker.decs, while also doubling as a win-condition.
So keep up evolving !
Amazingxkcd
01-07-2013, 10:02 AM
I guess its time for me to post my list that I have been playing around with for awhile. This was really based of ali ainstrazi's loam pox list that he ran way back in spring of 2012 and it's probably my favorite deck right behind nic fit.
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
3 Smallpox
2 Swamp
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Bloodghast
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Worm Harvest
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
It's a bit different from what I have seen here, and I am conceding the burn matchup as well. Thoughts would be nice on this.
Chatto
01-07-2013, 01:16 PM
I guess its time for me to post my list that I have been playing around with for awhile. This was really based of ali ainstrazi's loam pox list that he ran way back in spring of 2012 and it's probably my favorite deck right behind nic fit.
(...)
3 Smallpox
(...)
4 Deathrite Shaman
(...)
How do the DRS working out for you? And why only 3 SP? I would always go for the full package
Amazingxkcd
01-08-2013, 03:53 PM
DRS is a house. It really allows for us to control the game moreso than before. In order to make room for DRS, I had to cut an sp, but the list is always open for testing around if you want the full playset. Normally, i found that i was boarding out sp in a lot of my matchups, so I thought it would be safe to cut one card. I would not play this list if you have a burn infested meta or any rdws. This list just folds to that.
Jules
01-10-2013, 04:03 AM
DRS is a house. It really allows for us to control the game moreso than before. In order to make room for DRS, I had to cut an sp, but the list is always open for testing around if you want the full playset. Normally, i found that i was boarding out sp in a lot of my matchups, so I thought it would be safe to cut one card. I would not play this list if you have a burn infested meta or any rdws. This list just folds to that.
Against which matchups do you board the 1-offs in your side? Isn't 1 Top for example a little bit too random?
This is my current list:
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Bloodghast
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
3 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
3 Smallpox
1 Darkblast
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei Top
2 Swamp
2 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Syphon Life
SB: ?
I'm playing 61 cards atm. I don't know what to get out. Not sure about the Decay/Pulse Split.
There are so many cards i also want to include. If i could i would play 70 cards ^^.
For example more library manipulation...
The problem what often occurs that if you have a good start with Turn 1 IoK, Turn 2 Hymn, Turn 3 another stuff...that the deck runs out of gas if you draw multiple lands, what is realistic if you play 27...and then the opponent has too muche time to recover...
Chatto
01-10-2013, 06:18 AM
I'm playing 61 cards atm. I don't know what to get out. Not sure about the Decay/Pulse Split.
I would drop the Cabal Pit and/or cut one Barren Moor. Also, I'm liking A.D. a lot: you could go for 3/1 (A.D/M.P)
Amazingxkcd
01-10-2013, 09:19 AM
I like having 2 barren moors. As for the randomness, I am still not sure of sideboards and possibly mainboard as I am just coming off a 6 month hiatus from mtg and I want to get back in now.
Sughayyer
02-19-2013, 12:25 AM
Decided to take the dust away from that archetype and came up with the following:
3 thoughtseize
1 inquisition of kozilek
2 raven's crime
4 innocent blood
4 smallpox
3 life from the loam
3 lingering souls
1 worm harvest
3 abrupt decay
4 bloodghast
3 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top
4 wastelands
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 bayou
2 scrubland
2 barren moor
3 mishra's factory
1 forest
4 swamp
side:
1 extirpate
2 surgical extraction
3 syphon life
3 duress
2 pernicious deed
2 maelstrom pulse
2 oblivion ring
I didn't test it a lot yet, but I'm liking it. It's not so vulnerable to GY hate as well.
Raistlin Majere
04-11-2013, 03:42 PM
Has anyone else tried this archtype lately? I built a list of this a couple weeks ago and have played in two legacy tournaments in my area and the first week playing with it went 1-2-1 with a bye being my one win. The second time playing this deck I went 3-1 and made it to top 8 where I played my roommate playing TES, who crushed me with the God hand both games. Here is my list if anyone is interested in playing this deck.
Creatures:
4x Bloodghast
Instants:
3x Abrupt Decay
Sorceries:
1x Raven's Crime
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Lingering souls
3x Smallpox
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Life from the Loam
3x Innocent Blood
1x Worm Harvest
Artifacts:
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Ensnaring Bridge
Enchantment:
1x Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers:
3x Liliana of the Veil
Lands:
4x Wasteland
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh flats
1x Barren Moor
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Swamp
1x Forest
Sideboard:
3x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Extripate
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Syphon Life
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Engineered Plague
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
smudge2005
05-04-2013, 10:02 PM
Decided to build mono black pox about a month ago I felt like it wasn't getting there that much so i started to look at all the colors and which one was best to splash for saw gb was the most popular so i built Reid Dukes list, then i saw that the list above where also splashing white for lingering souls but why stop there with the white cards, so I decided to try Enlightened Tutor and I found it was making the tougher match ups easier with being able to search up your answers, so here's a look at my list:
Creatures:
1x Nether Spirit
Instants:
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Entomb
Sorceries:
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
3x Sinkhole
3x Lingering souls
2x Life from the Loam
Artifacts:
2x Mox Diamond
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Cursed Scroll
Enchantment:
1x Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers:
4x Liliana of the Veil
Lands:
2x Swamp
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Maze of Ith
2x Barren Moor
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
With the mainboard Enlightened Tutors the sideboard is mostly enchantments and artifacts, to be able to get your answers quicker.
Sideboard:
1x Nether Void
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Zuran Orb
3x Engineered Plague
2x Pithing Needle
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Extripate
2x Vindicate
1x Oblivion Ring
Hope this list can help someone out, hope someone maybe able to help me on some of my decisions and thanks in advance.
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