[Deck] Welder Survival 2K7

[Atwa]

This is the deck a couple of guys played at worlds. Since I've always had a fetish for toolbox based control decks, I've tested it a couple of rounds on MWS and it is kind of strong.

Land:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Tree of Tales

Creatures:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Goblin Welder
2 Mesmeric Fiend
2 Shield Sphere
2 Sundering Titan
1 Anger
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Platinum Angel
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Triskelion

Other Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Genesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
1 Shriekmaw

First Impresions:
Overal, the deck seems strong. I'm not quite sure how it handles the current meta, but in a vaccuum it's a beast. I do have a feeling however, the deck isn't finished. I've discovered some raw edges in the couple of games I've played which wouldn't have been there if it had been tested and developed decently. I get the feeling the deck was build in a hurry.

Changes I want to test right now:
-2 Polluted Delta
+1 Tropical Island
+1 ????

I also want to put shriekmaw in the maindeck. Goys is played too much to ignore. Sure, this deck could care less when you have a 7/10 online, but you might not even get there with goys trampling your face.

I also want to try Genesis maindeck, since this deck plays no Eternal Witness and I really feel survival decks must have a recur engine maindeck (other than the Angel/Titan/Lion combo).

What do you guys think?

[Lukas Preuss]

Is Cabal Ritual in the maindeck supposed to be Cabal Therapy?

Well, I think in a vacuum, this deck looks rather strong, but Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt are probably two of the most played sideboard cards in the format and both hit this deck rather strong.

Also, the 2/2 split of the moxes seems odd, maybe that's just personal, but I'd rather play one or the other.


Oh, and Tarmogoyf should find its place... ;)

[troopatroop]

Is Cabal Ritual in the maindeck supposed to be Cabal Therapy?

Well, I think in a vacuum, this deck looks rather strong, but Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt are probably two of the most played sideboard cards in the format and both hit this deck rather strong.

Also, the 2/2 split of the moxes seems odd, maybe that's just personal, but I'd rather play one or the other.


Oh, and Tarmogoyf should find its place... ;)

I'm not actually sure if Tarmogoyf fits actually. Welder Survival is a very slot hungry deck. I would be more inclined to stay more focussed on Welding and Survivaling then winning in the combat step.

[Atwa]

Is Cabal Ritual in the maindeck supposed to be Cabal Therapy?

Fixed.

I agree with you that both Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Neelde seem very strong, esspecially with only one card to combat them (Harmonic Sliver).

The first thing I tried when testing, was to make some room for Tarmogoyf, but I even have problems sideboarding, so thight are the spots in the deck.

[Illissius]

What is better about this list compared to all the old ones which failed (or, at the least, stopped seeing play)? It doesn't look especially strong -- most of the cards seem weak or slow without Survival, and sometimes with it -- and there's plenty of seemingly odd choices like the two-and-two Moxen, two Shield Spheres, singleton Tree of Tales (is there an Intuition pile with it or something?), and three Therapy plus two Fiends. Using Intuition to find Survival looks slow and you can't set up Welder with it (no maindeck Genesis even) if you haven't already drawn it. Welder does approximately nothing without Survival or Intuition, and is going to die instantly much of time, making you reliant on Survival+Anger to get it going. And you only have five disruption spells to make any of your stuff resolve, two of which die to removal themselves. Overall, the deck seems to me to be highly reliant on getting just the right kind of draw, and then not getting it disrupted in pretty much any way.

The deck did go 5-0, so this is more a statement of puzzlement than of disdain.

[Mental]

What is better about this list compared to all the old ones which failed (or, at the least, stopped seeing play)? It doesn't look especially strong -- most of the cards seem weak or slow without Survival, and sometimes with it -- and there's plenty of seemingly odd choices like the two-and-two Moxen, two Shield Spheres, singleton Tree of Tales (is there an Intuition pile with it or something?), and three Therapy plus two Fiends. Using Intuition to find Survival looks slow and you can't set up Welder with it (no maindeck Genesis even) if you haven't already drawn it. Welder does approximately nothing without Survival or Intuition, and is going to die instantly much of time, making you reliant on Survival+Anger to get it going. And you only have five disruption spells to make any of your stuff resolve, two of which die to removal themselves. Overall, the deck seems to me to be highly reliant on getting just the right kind of draw, and then not getting it disrupted in pretty much any way.

The deck did go 5-0, so this is more a statement of puzzlement than of disdain.

I'm no expert, but it looks like this deck doesn't NEED survival to work. Turn 1 Welder, Turn 2 Therapy myself dumping titan, Shield Sphere, Weld for Titan.
I'll be testing this ASAP, the list looks pretty good to me.

[Tao]

Since it is already december, how about Welder Survival 2K8?

[Illissius]

I'm no expert, but it looks like this deck doesn't NEED survival to work. Turn 1 Welder, Turn 2 Therapy myself dumping titan, Shield Sphere, Weld for Titan.
I'll be testing this ASAP, the list looks pretty good to me.

You have four Welders, three Therapies, seven cheap artifacts to Weld out, and four big artifacts to Weld in. That's effectively a four card combo. The odds of drawing it don't look good, not to mention resolving and protecting it.

[Mental]

You have four Welders, three Therapies, seven cheap artifacts to Weld out, and four big artifacts to Weld in. That's effectively a four card combo. The odds of drawing it don't look good, not to mention resolving and protecting it.

I just did it on MWS ;)

[Jak]

I just did it on MWS ;)

Aesome. Do it again.

I wonder how he played the deck. It seems extremely difficult to pilot this to a 5 and 0 record. How consistant is this?

[Mental]

Aesome. Do it again.

I wonder how he played the deck. It seems extremely difficult to pilot this to a 5 and 0 record. How consistant is this?

Well, I just won a game, steamrolling affinity. Basically I intuition for Survival on T2 off Mox Diamond, dropped it, and already had an active welder. So turn 3 I welded Trike into play, killed his board. Then I got 2 more welders and kept doing it. Eventually I beat him to death with Platinum Angel and when he was at 3 Weldered in Trike FTW.
Overall, it felt pretty strong.

[Benie Bederios]

Well, I just won a game, steamrolling affinity. Basically I intuition for Survival on T2 off Mox Diamond, dropped it, and already had an active welder. So turn 3 I welded Trike into play, killed his board. Then I got 2 more welders and kept doing it. Eventually I beat him to death with Platinum Angel and when he was at 3 Weldered in Trike FTW.
Overall, it felt pretty strong.

Did you played postboard too. Without hate this deck can battle aggro quite good, but if your opponent boards in Needles and Crypt( both very common for a Affinity deck) you are in for a though matchup. Both cards can come online turn 1 and you have to play around it, while it won't the affect the affinity player alot.

I myself play Gr Welder Survival( hate splashing for other colors) and allthough I win game 1 alot of time, game 2 and 3 are a real struggle, and I normally win them of the back of Tarmogoyf and other cheap beaters.

But yeah, the deck got a good result in a field where there was alot of Thresh so the deck can't be really bad. Maybe the deck had the luck, that most hate was in sideboards to fight of other Threshold decks and Goblins...

BB

[Mental]

Did you played postboard too. Without hate this deck can battle aggro quite good, but if your opponent boards in Needles and Crypt( both very common for a Affinity deck) you are in for a though matchup. Both cards can come online turn 1 and you have to play around it, while it won't the affect the affinity player alot.

I myself play Gr Welder Survival( hate splashing for other colors) and allthough I win game 1 alot of time, game 2 and 3 are a real struggle, and I normally win them of the back of Tarmogoyf and other cheap beaters.

But yeah, the deck got a good result in a field where there was alot of Thresh so the deck can't be really bad. Maybe the deck had the luck, that most hate was in sideboards to fight of other Threshold decks and Goblins...

BB

No, I took a shower. I do imagine I'd have a harder game post board, and I should have had a tough one pre board because doesn't most affinity MB Pithing Needle? Anyhow, I'm thinking we could want more than 1 creature that can kill Artifacts - howabout 3, so we can Intuition for them? Also Eternal Witness should be in the board, IMO, because they will side in Enchantment hate. I'd run 3 Eternal Witnesses SB, and 3 Harmonic Slivers? Or does 2 Harmonic Slivers, 1 Ingot Chewer sounds better? (SB of course)

[Illissius]

If you want to Intuition or Survival for multiple copies of artifact kill, I'd go with a single Chewer or Sliver plus Witnesses and Genesis. If you want to draw more artifact kill, Krosan Grip. There's quite a few artifacts and enchantments you hate to see (Needle, Crypt, Leyline, Humility, Counterbalance, ...), and Grip is the best at making certain they die.

I'd consider sticking a set of Tarmogoyfs or something in the side, to try to ignore some of the hate rather than fight through it, which would be an uphill battle.

[MattH]

I proxied this up today. So far I've decided that while it's nothing revolutionary, it did teach me a few things:

1. that a five-color manabase really can actually work. Who would have thought?
2. the 2/2 mox split actually feels correct. Mox Diamond is insanely good but I don't think the deck could support 4, and probably not even 3.

I really really felt the lack of Genesis maindeck. I would absolutely look to put 4 Goyfs in the board. Sharpshooter seems pretty weak on paper.

[bigredmeanie]

I can tell you exactly how to play this deck. Like a combo deck. Your goal should be to protect a Survival via discard, then win on the back of a hasty Titan on turn 3. It's actually not that hard considering now you can play a Survival on turn 1. Mulligan Mulligan Mulligan! Thats also why there is no Genesis.

Thirst for Knowledge is also pretty stong in the deck, perhaps as a replacement for Brainstorm.

If you are looking for room for Goyf I know where you put them.

-1 Shield Sphere
-1 Platinum Angel This card does nothing but create a false sense of security while providing only a very slow clock, and can sometimes be the only artifact in play.
-2 Mesmeric Fiend Good but to slow for your objective.

+3 Gouf
+1 Cabal Therapy

Also somewhere you have to add at LEAST 2 more Tree of Tales, that is mandatory.

Pyroclasm is completely unnecessary in the board. This deck demolishes aggro of every kind. Welding a Trike for a Trike is a nice way to kill their board or their life. If you are worried about excess Goyfs, play a Duplicant in the board.

Cut a land

4 mox
4 Birds
22 lands

In case you can't add that's 30 mana sources. Also a lot. I cut a land for another spell slot.

[Happy Gilmore]

this seems like it has real potential, not to mention that it gives all those people who have been itching to do something with welder a chance to break out their sets. I like intuition a lot in this deck.

and the first card to add to this deck is Eternal Witness...its silly not to have alteast two somewhere. I personally don't like the moxen but to each his own.

I like
-2 mox Diamond
-2 Mesmeric Fiend
-1 Shield Sphere
-2 Delta

+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Chrome Mox
+3 Eternal Witness
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Tree of Tales

[freakish777]

The first card I would try and add is Quirion Ranger...

[Jak]

I tried to make this deck a while back. I felt that adding Welder and Titan made the deck more of a combo and less of an aggro deck, so I was trying to add some protection and disruptive spells.

22 Lands

2 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Diamond
(split looks like it would work)
4 BoP

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Survival
4 Intuition
3 TfK
4 Brainstorm

4 Welder
1 TSH
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Squee
4 Goyf
1 Platinum Angel
2 Sundering Titan

4 Cards over, but looks good. Back up Goyf plan and a ton of disruptive cards. Also has better draw. Thoughts?

Edit- Decided it would look better to try and cut some cards.

-1 TfK
-1 Therapy
-1 Witness (wanted to keep but Genesis seemed stronger)

Not sure what else.

[bigredmeanie]

The first card I would try and add is Quirion Ranger...

It's pretty solid actually. It's really important as a means to protect your Taiga from your own Titan. You end up geddoning the board, but you get to play your Taiga every turn and attack anyway.

Trike has to be in the deck. His versatility is to important to discount. He generates tons of card advantage, not to mention speeding up the clock, by an entire turn.


For the few comments about Crypt. Thid deck shouldnt care that much. It's actually really easy to play around, and you end up forcing them to blow it just for 1 Titan or Trike, and better yet if you can play a Q.Ranger and a Welder it won't even stop the exchange.


@ Jak 19 cards isn't enough to support Fow, and you won't often have extra Islands in play to return for Daze due to your own Titan. Genesis is not stronger than Witness in this deck. You don't run enough creatures you care to return to your hand, and you'll Intuition for Survival occasionaly, being able to Witness one back is good. Shield Sphere is good, and must be in the deck.

[Finn]

For the few comments about Crypt. Thid deck shouldnt care that much. It's actually really easy to play around, and you end up forcing them to blow it just for 1 Titan or Trike, and better yet if you can play a Q.Ranger and a Welder it won't even stop the exchange.
Seconded. When constructed and played at its best, the deck can usually play around two forms of disruption, but not three. Tormod's Crypt is actually a pretty mediocre defense for this deck. Pithing Needle is pretty good. Meddling Mage is pretty good. Withered Wretch is very, very good. Humility is the very best against this version. But with design adjustments, just about anything can be overcome.

I'm actually a bit surprised that this deck did as well as it did since it is not particularly well-tweaked.

White is entirely unnecessary in this build. Platinum Angel is weak. Tin Street Hooligan is almost always better than Ingot Chewer. There are a lot of choices that are there just to support the attrocious mana base. Go down to a reasonable amount of colors and you can lose crap like Birds and Diamonds, and you can bump up the number of Tree of Tales.

[Jaynel]

Aether Vial is very good in this deck. It can bait counters if you need to drop a Survival, and lets your drop uncounterable Welders at end of turn, which is very relevant if you don't have Anger or Taiga. Here's my take:

Mana (27):
4 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Tree of Tales
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Pentad Prism

Welders and Robots (9):
4 Goblin Welder
1 Triskelion
1 Shield Sphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel

Engine (9):
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness

Other Stuff That's Good (15):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition


Sideboard (15):
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spore Frog
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge

Mana: 21 Lands, including 8 fetche, 3 basic Forests, and 3 Tree of Tales. Birds are solid turn 1 plays, and once you have 2 mana out the Pentad Prism pays for itself, fixes your mana, and welds out for something useful. Prisms also make the bigger artifacts easier to hardcast if you have no other option.

The engine: 4 Welders and 4 Survivals are obvious inclusions. Trike, Titan, and Shield Sphere are also generally agreed upon as necessary. Platinum Angel is an out that can buy you another untap step and she also beats for 4 in the air. Duplicant eats Tarmogoyfs, then gets welded out and does it again.

Quirion Ranger is very solid in this deck. He saves lands from your angry Sundering Titan and lets you do cool tricks with Welder in response to removal (targetting either Welder or robots). Genesis is also pretty awesome. he gets back dead Welders, makes Intuition much better, and recurs Shield Sphere for more welding action. Eternal Witness serves a similar function as Genesis and is also great for getting back sideboarded answers like Grip and Crypt.

Tarmogoyf and Aether Vial bait counters so you can lay a Survival. Unlike preemptive discard, they aren't dead topdecks and serve functions in the deck.
Tarmogoyfs get up to 4/5 usually (land, instant, artifact, creature) and only grow from there. They just serve as an amazing plan B if the whole Welder shindig isn't working. He also pitches to Survival in a pinch.
Aether Vial usually stays at 1, for instant speed Welders, Birds, and Queer Ranger. Gets welded out once you're in control, or can go up to 2 for ninja Goyfs.

The sideboard is a mess. I'm going for a bit of a toolbox approach with the creatures. Grip and Crypt are the only 3-ofs, and Ancient Grudge has pretty sick synergy with Inutition (Grudge, Grudge/Grip, Grip/Witness). The redundant creatures come in if they are better than the maindeck ones (like Duplicant can come out for another Triskelion against Goblins or Survival). Spore Frog and Plat may be a little bit overkill, but he's pretty solid with Genesis and Aether Vial.

Some things I want to discuss about are:
- Is maindeck artifact/enchantment removal needed?
- Is Platinum Angel needed maindeck and/or sideboard? What about Duplicant?
- Are Moxen (Chrome and/or Diamond) better than Pentad Prism?

[Jak]

@ Jak 19 cards isn't enough to support Fow, and you won't often have extra Islands in play to return for Daze due to your own Titan. Genesis is not stronger than Witness in this deck. You don't run enough creatures you care to return to your hand, and you'll Intuition for Survival occasionaly, being able to Witness one back is good. Shield Sphere is good, and must be in the deck.

Actually, 19 cards is able to support FoW. Affinity in the past has ran force and Chrome mox with only 15. I agree on the Witness. I didn't realize I ran so few critters.

[Mental]

Aether Vial is very good in this deck. It can bait counters if you need to drop a Survival, and lets your drop uncounterable Welders at end of turn, which is very relevant if you don't have Anger or Taiga. Here's my take:

Mana (27):
4 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Tree of Tales
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Pentad Prism

Welders and Robots (9):
4 Goblin Welder
1 Triskelion
1 Shield Sphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel

Engine (9):
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness

Other Stuff That's Good (15):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition


Sideboard (15):
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spore Frog
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge

Mana: 21 Lands, including 8 fetche, 3 basic Forests, and 3 Tree of Tales. Birds are solid turn 1 plays, and once you have 2 mana out the Pentad Prism pays for itself, fixes your mana, and welds out for something useful. Prisms also make the bigger artifacts easier to hardcast if you have no other option.

The engine: 4 Welders and 4 Survivals are obvious inclusions. Trike, Titan, and Shield Sphere are also generally agreed upon as necessary. Platinum Angel is an out that can buy you another untap step and she also beats for 4 in the air. Duplicant eats Tarmogoyfs, then gets welded out and does it again.

Quirion Ranger is very solid in this deck. He saves lands from your angry Sundering Titan and lets you do cool tricks with Welder in response to removal (targetting either Welder or robots). Genesis is also pretty awesome. he gets back dead Welders, makes Intuition much better, and recurs Shield Sphere for more welding action. Eternal Witness serves a similar function as Genesis and is also great for getting back sideboarded answers like Grip and Crypt.

Tarmogoyf and Aether Vial bait counters so you can lay a Survival. Unlike preemptive discard, they aren't dead topdecks and serve functions in the deck.
Tarmogoyfs get up to 4/5 usually (land, instant, artifact, creature) and only grow from there. They just serve as an amazing plan B if the whole Welder shindig isn't working. He also pitches to Survival in a pinch.
Aether Vial usually stays at 1, for instant speed Welders, Birds, and Queer Ranger. Gets welded out once you're in control, or can go up to 2 for ninja Goyfs.

The sideboard is a mess. I'm going for a bit of a toolbox approach with the creatures. Grip and Crypt are the only 3-ofs, and Ancient Grudge has pretty sick synergy with Inutition (Grudge, Grudge/Grip, Grip/Witness). The redundant creatures come in if they are better than the maindeck ones (like Duplicant can come out for another Triskelion against Goblins or Survival). Spore Frog and Plat may be a little bit overkill, but he's pretty solid with Genesis and Aether Vial.

Some things I want to discuss about are:
- Is maindeck artifact/enchantment removal needed?
- Is Platinum Angel needed maindeck and/or sideboard? What about Duplicant?
- Are Moxen (Chrome and/or Diamond) better than Pentad Prism?

This list seems very strong. A few things.
Moxes > Pentad Prism. Immediate mana is better than investments, almost always. T1 Survival is great in this deck, and Pentad Prism ain't gonna get you there. Also, this list should run 4 Moxes, preferably in the form of the 2/2 split. Cut 1 Genesis and 1 BoP for that.
4 Intuitions seems like a must in a combo deck like this. I'd cut 1 Goyf to fit that in, because you don't really want a card that doesn't help your game plan in multiples.
Also, how good is Duplicant actually?

[bigredmeanie]

A few things.
Moxes > Pentad Prism. Immediate mana is better than investments, almost always. T1 Survival is great in this deck, and Pentad Prism ain't gonna get you there. Also, this list should run 4 Moxes, preferably in the form of the 2/2 split.

Absolutely correct


Cut 1 Genesis and 1 BoP for that.

Don't cut BoP, cut Duplicant or Platinum Angel.


Also, how good is Duplicant actually?

Well, in a combo-esque version like this, probably not that good, in a slower more consistant version pretty solid. In this particular version I'd say move it to the board.

[Nubiatem]

Seconded. When constructed and played at its best, the deck can usually play around two forms of disruption, but not three. Tormod's Crypt is actually a pretty mediocre defense for this deck. Pithing Needle is pretty good. Meddling Mage is pretty good. Withered Wretch is very, very good. Humility is the very best against this version. But with design adjustments, just about anything can be overcome.

I'm actually a bit surprised that this deck did as well as it did since it is not particularly well-tweaked.

White is entirely unnecessary in this build. Platinum Angel is weak. Tin Street Hooligan is almost always better than Ingot Chewer. There are a lot of choices that are there just to support the attrocious mana base. Go down to a reasonable amount of colors and you can lose crap like Birds and Diamonds, and you can bump up the number of Tree of Tales.

I'm playing around with this deck...In fact I've played around with nearly every deck popular in the format. That being said tinstreet hooligan is NEVER better then ingot chewer...here is why

Ingot chewer
Costs 1 to use
Dies so geneses can dish it out again
Its covered mana cost is 5 this is very important because it will help quite a bit vs. top/counterbalance and all the spell snare floating around.

The deck list i saw only ran 3 brainstorm and ran 3 fiends instead of 2.

worrying about crypt, needle, counterbalance, humility, withered wretch. all at once is never going to work, and is never going to happen.

So, It runs early and very fast hand disruption for black discard/ thresh/combo

Runs tutors for consistency.

The worst matches i've found are blue, and black. and by worst matches i mean if you face white, green, and or red, you just win...its really that easy.
No decks put you on a clock fast enough to trouble you. Yes i admit goyf is huge aggro but if they get him out it leaves you open to play our your combo, thresh is a bit of a hard match but i think its in favor of survival. Goblins, seems a bit hard but easy after pyro.

vs. any burn goblins, or heavy removal side out 3 fiends and throw in your geneses crap. geneses, (chewer, wispermair/sharpshooter)

vs. goblins take out 3 fiend, and 3 cabal therapy, and 1 sliver. and add 4 pyroclasem 1 genesses 1 ingot chewer and 1 sharpshooter.
makes it mostly auto win.

vs. thresh board in your geneses and ingot chewer (whispermair if they are black) and all your discard. board out platinum angel, and whatever you feel like probably that sliver.

vs. anything with duels just win game one because you are very hard to control, then board in accordingly.

This deck is deceptively solid, i think the angel in the main is very important because silly beltcher combo decks or anything else runs little removal especially game one. and that pesky angel along with your welders removing their stuff for jank lotus pedals is a lot to get through, not to mention discard.

This deck is not supposed to beat the perfect hand but I don't think it was built hastily at all, it can punish keeping a bad hand, or even not having the perfect hand. Just think of it as a combo/control deck and it will be easy to see why goyf has no place here.

This deck is not built to support 1 ofs that make you feel good about them being in your deck, if you draw Quirion Ranger your going to think hmmm, thats not a fiend to disrupt them, thats not a welder to combo with, thats not a survival to win with, thats not an intuition to search, thats not easy blockers, acceleration or anything really useful, most of the cards in the deck are very very powerful on their own even birds can just sack to flash that therapy again. by running thins like Quirion Ranger you run more hevy on survival and are more vulnerable to needle. In my opinion.


PS. Don't put useless geneses packages in your sideboard. I used to play that way and it really does not work. Spore frog is stupid, you will have it killed at the end of your turn and you will die. at best its one turn. Your sb should help you win more efficiently not stall.

[hi-val]

Spore Frog is sooooo bad. It's a great way to not lose while your opponent actually wins : \ Also, as a person who has been playing Survival for a hella long time, you must resist the danger of cute cards. Ask yourself if you're going to tutor for it in three out of five games if you can. Cards like Orcish Settlers are most definitely worth tutoring for. Cards like Ovinomancer are also stupidly strong with Anger in play. Those are two I'd want to cram in (well, at least the sheeper, since Titan does the Settler thing).


I built this up awhile back too. The two Shield Spheres are absolutely correct. Do not move them out! I don't think Tarmogoyf is necessary in the deck, and here's why: you'll never Survival for him. The deck is constructed so as to be really strong with Survival out, and quite good without it anyway. If you have Survival, you go get the Titan, Welder, Sphere thing and go nuts.

I've found that you often just kill off your own Taiga, so Anger gets maybe one or two uses. That's frowns, but I was fine with that. I'd want more Mesmeric Fiend off the board.

I've seen some lists running Nullstone Gargoyle, but that seems pretty bad. It looks good, but every deck has the power to punt one spell into it and then Sword it or whatever. It's the definition of win-more. I am hesitant to run another giant robot like Duplicant anyway.

I'd almost want Mindslavers somewhere, but I think Eternal Witness is a stronger Mindslaver off the board against control decks.

Also: oh my God, I forgot that I did this until now-- I switched one of the two Forests into a Pendelhaven. So. Good. It protects glassjaw welders, and it's not actually a forest. Between that and Tree of Tales, you'll have strong green sources that don't get blown up when Titan hits. In fact, I'd almost be tempted to remove the last forest for a Horizon Canopy or Centaur Garden. If the deck had even one Legend in it, I'd want to drop Okina in.

Remember that one of the most powerful plays you can make is an Intuition for three Therapies.

[from Cairo]

PS. Don't put useless geneses packages in your sideboard. I used to play that way and it really does not work. Spore frog is stupid, you will have it killed at the end of your turn and you will die. at best its one turn. Your sb should help you win more efficiently not stall.

Except for the fact that the list runs Vial and wants to keep it at 1 for welder... vialing out Spore Frog during you're opponent's turn every turn is pretty solid versus agro and can stall until you get welder stupidity going.

[hi-val]

Still, that's 4 mana. Getting Frog Fog means that you have Survival in play, Genesis in the graveyard and enough mana to at least Genesis. At that point, why haven't you binned a robot, welded it out and won?

[Mooglar]

Been playing my Vers for while >_>
// NAME: GRU - Welder Surival

// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [MR] Tree of Tales
4 [R] Taiga
1 [TE] Wasteland
2 [TSP] Forest (1)
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 [MR] Platinum Angel
1 [MR] Triskelion
1 [AL] Shield Sphere
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [JU] Anger
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Sylvan Safekeeper
2 [DS] Sundering Titan
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [9E] Viridian Shaman
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [PS] Flametongue Kavu

// Spells
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [MR] Mindslaver
3 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FNM] Bottle Gnomes
SB: 1 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Sb is seems weak
gifts instead of intuition for 1 more card and late game control
although ive been wanting to test out fact or fiction
thirst for knowledge is amazing im not sure why u guys arent playing it
17 lands with 4 chrome moxes is plenty fine
witness, ftk, bottle gnomes, queer ranger
moxes allow for first turn survival
2 sundering titans 1 plat 1 mindslaver

plat allows to survive against fast combo and wins against solidarity
titan against thresh and rock
mindslaver against anything thresh,discard and combo are the most explosive decks out there

shield sphere should not be cut due to it being ur only art creature to search for and goyf is amazing...

deck can win without welder or survival due to to acceeratriong via birds moxes roffelos and queer ranger -)

Capitalization and punctuation are absolute requirements on these boards. Start using them or you will receive a warning. Three warnings = site ban. Thanks in advance for your compliance. - Zilla

[Mental]

Isn't this a combo deck, not a control one? Early game, what the hell do you do without Survival? By all means, run Gifts. But then TfK should be Intuition -- There shouldn't BE a late game with this deck.
Tell me your average Gifts package with no Cabal Therapy, also.

[Mooglar]

it depends on the hand >_>, prolly genesis, witness, then depends on what i need or all my artifact package

Capitalization and punctuation are absolute requirements on these boards. Start using them or you will receive a warning. Three warnings = site ban. Thanks in advance for your compliance. - Zilla

[MattH]

Isn't this a combo deck, not a control one? Early game, what the hell do you do without Survival? By all means, run Gifts. But then TfK should be Intuition -- There shouldn't BE a late game with this deck.
Tell me your average Gifts package with no Cabal Therapy, also.

It's not that there shouldn't be a late game, so much as "If you don't survive the early game, there won't be a late game" and the fact that Survival already gives you all the late-game power you could want.

[Michael Keller]

Aether Vial is very good in this deck. It can bait counters if you need to drop a Survival, and lets your drop uncounterable Welders at end of turn, which is very relevant if you don't have Anger or Taiga. Here's my take:

Mana (27):
4 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Tree of Tales
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Pentad Prism

Welders and Robots (9):
4 Goblin Welder
1 Triskelion
1 Shield Sphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel

Engine (9):
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness

Other Stuff That's Good (15):
4 Tarmogoyf
4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition


Sideboard (15):
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spore Frog
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge

Mana: 21 Lands, including 8 fetche, 3 basic Forests, and 3 Tree of Tales. Birds are solid turn 1 plays, and once you have 2 mana out the Pentad Prism pays for itself, fixes your mana, and welds out for something useful. Prisms also make the bigger artifacts easier to hardcast if you have no other option.

The engine: 4 Welders and 4 Survivals are obvious inclusions. Trike, Titan, and Shield Sphere are also generally agreed upon as necessary. Platinum Angel is an out that can buy you another untap step and she also beats for 4 in the air. Duplicant eats Tarmogoyfs, then gets welded out and does it again.

Quirion Ranger is very solid in this deck. He saves lands from your angry Sundering Titan and lets you do cool tricks with Welder in response to removal (targetting either Welder or robots). Genesis is also pretty awesome. he gets back dead Welders, makes Intuition much better, and recurs Shield Sphere for more welding action. Eternal Witness serves a similar function as Genesis and is also great for getting back sideboarded answers like Grip and Crypt.

Tarmogoyf and Aether Vial bait counters so you can lay a Survival. Unlike preemptive discard, they aren't dead topdecks and serve functions in the deck.
Tarmogoyfs get up to 4/5 usually (land, instant, artifact, creature) and only grow from there. They just serve as an amazing plan B if the whole Welder shindig isn't working. He also pitches to Survival in a pinch.
Aether Vial usually stays at 1, for instant speed Welders, Birds, and Queer Ranger. Gets welded out once you're in control, or can go up to 2 for ninja Goyfs.

The sideboard is a mess. I'm going for a bit of a toolbox approach with the creatures. Grip and Crypt are the only 3-ofs, and Ancient Grudge has pretty sick synergy with Inutition (Grudge, Grudge/Grip, Grip/Witness). The redundant creatures come in if they are better than the maindeck ones (like Duplicant can come out for another Triskelion against Goblins or Survival). Spore Frog and Plat may be a little bit overkill, but he's pretty solid with Genesis and Aether Vial.

Some things I want to discuss about are:
- Is maindeck artifact/enchantment removal needed?
- Is Platinum Angel needed maindeck and/or sideboard? What about Duplicant?
- Are Moxen (Chrome and/or Diamond) better than Pentad Prism?

The list does seem strong - but it certainly isn't your take. It is almost a direct copy of Stuart Wright's Welder Survival deck at World's this past year with the exception of a few negligible inclusions.

Anyways, I like Wright's build best. He went undefeated with it - check it out:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/welder

[Mental]

The list does seem strong - but it certainly isn't your take. It is almost a direct copy of Stuart Wright's Welder Survival deck at World's this past year with the exception of a few negligible inclusions.

Anyways, I like Wright's build best. He went undefeated with it - check it out:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/welder

You like 3 Brainstorms? Why?

[Michael Keller]

Any experienced Survival player will tell you the trick to winning with a Survival deck is to be able to win without being dependent solely on that card. Brainstorm gives you outs drawing into other answers while you're sitting on a hand you won't be able to do anything with. The deck plays (at minimum) three colors, so trying to get the land you need is also a necessity. Brainstorm sometimes is a necessary evil.

It obviously worked for him.

[Mental]

Any experienced Survival player will tell you the trick to winning with a Survival deck is to be able to win without being dependent solely on that card. Brainstorm gives you outs drawing into other answers while you're sitting on a hand you won't be able to do anything with. The deck plays (at minimum) three colors, so trying to get the land you need is also a necessity. Brainstorm sometimes is a necessary evil.

It obviously worked for him.

No no no. I meant, only 3? Why not 4?

[Mooglar]

well, by late game i mean turn 5 and up because by then u should have survival or welder out. Also goyfs help the early game a lot and i like sylvan safekeeper>.> since he says no to swords and other removal.

what do people thing of living wish/burning wish?

Also gifts acts as a turn 4/5/6 engine as an answer to survival getting needled and can act as a win condition of its own.

Also if ur looking to free slots looking at ur lists chrome mox > pentad prism and also because of that you can run less lands

[Jaynel]

The list does seem strong - but it certainly isn't your take. It is almost a direct copy of Stuart Wright's Welder Survival deck at World's this past year with the exception of a few negligible inclusions.

Anyways, I like Wright's build best. He went undefeated with it - check it out:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/welder

I'm very aware of Mr. Wright's list. However, the list I posted was developed independently by from Cairo and I a few months ago, around September. I don't really see many similarities at all, actually. I run Tarmogoyf and Vial, he runs a 5 color manabase and discard.

[BKclassic]

Also: oh my God, I forgot that I did this until now-- I switched one of the two Forests into a Pendelhaven. So. Good. It protects glassjaw welders, and it's not actually a forest. Between that and Tree of Tales, you'll have strong green sources that don't get blown up when Titan hits. In fact, I'd almost be tempted to remove the last forest for a Horizon Canopy or Centaur Garden. If the deck had even one Legend in it, I'd want to drop Okina in.

A Gaea's Cradle perhaps?

[Finn]

I'm playing around with this deck...In fact I've played around with nearly every deck popular in the format. That being said tinstreet hooligan is NEVER better then ingot chewer...here is why

Ingot chewer
Costs 1 to use
Dies so geneses can dish it out again
Its covered mana cost is 5 this is very important because it will help quite a bit vs. top/counterbalance and all the spell snare floating around.I'm not intenging to condescend here. Though, I suppose it may come off that way. The problem with having played nearly every popular deck in the format is that you do not get the real story for any of them. Let me impart a bit of wisdom that you come by if you pilot the deck enough. Ingot Chewer, while it is a pretty combo on paper with Genesis, is not so essential.

...quick aside about Genesis. This is the 60th most important card in the main deck in my builds. I constantly struggle with wanting to run him as a 1-of in the sb instead of in the main. He is the last resort of the deck against the overwhelming majority of the field. If this needs clarification I will do so, but it is a long talk, so I am skipping it for now...

I prefer Tin Street Hooligan because it is a bonafide aggro dude in a deck that REALLY needs an aggro element. And it is a 2-for-1. The Chewer-Genesis stuff is fine, but consider how Genesis got in the GY in the first place. Did your opponent let you resolve an Intuition? Are you using Survival? You should be dominating the game the first time you untap with Survival in play. If that is the case, there is no need for Chewers and such. You have already removed the hate the opponent has stacked up against you getting this far. If the opponent has not or could not do this, there is no need to worry since you will be winning that game. The Hooligan gets you card advantage and a threat at a point in the match when you have nothing going yet. Chewer-Genesis is a "cool thing" that does not. And if you need it to, Hooligan can still be brought back with Genesis, though you will want to simply Survival up another instead most of the time.


Spore Frog is sooooo bad. It's a great way to not lose while your opponent actually wins : \ Also, as a person who has been playing Survival for a hella long time, you must resist the danger of cute cards. Ask yourself if you're going to tutor for it in three out of five games if you can. Cards like Orcish Settlers are most definitely worth tutoring for. Cards like Ovinomancer are also stupidly strong with Anger in play. Those are two I'd want to cram in (well, at least the sheeper, since Titan does the Settler thing).


I built this up awhile back too. The two Shield Spheres are absolutely correct. Do not move them out! I don't think Tarmogoyf is necessary in the deck, and here's why: you'll never Survival for him. The deck is constructed so as to be really strong with Survival out, and quite good without it anyway. If you have Survival, you go get the Titan, Welder, Sphere thing and go nuts.

I've found that you often just kill off your own Taiga, so Anger gets maybe one or two uses. That's frowns, but I was fine with that. I'd want more Mesmeric Fiend off the board.

I've seen some lists running Nullstone Gargoyle, but that seems pretty bad. It looks good, but every deck has the power to punt one spell into it and then Sword it or whatever. It's the definition of win-more. I am hesitant to run another giant robot like Duplicant anyway.

I'd almost want Mindslavers somewhere, but I think Eternal Witness is a stronger Mindslaver off the board against control decks.

Also: oh my God, I forgot that I did this until now-- I switched one of the two Forests into a Pendelhaven. So. Good. It protects glassjaw welders, and it's not actually a forest. Between that and Tree of Tales, you'll have strong green sources that don't get blown up when Titan hits. In fact, I'd almost be tempted to remove the last forest for a Horizon Canopy or Centaur Garden. If the deck had even one Legend in it, I'd want to drop Okina in.

Remember that one of the most powerful plays you can make is an Intuition for three Therapies.I realize that you are talking about a deck that it slightly different from the one I am, so it makes sense that we have differing views. But to be clear, I disagree with most of what you have said here.

OK, I also discovered Spore Frog to be a useless card from a different meta. That is true. The Tarmo's are an excellent choice since the deck WILL WIN almost every game you play when Survival is active. Who cares if they are worth Survivaling for? They save your hide when the opponent brings in 11 cards from the sb to hose Survival.

I have almost no problems with Titan killing my Taigas. Quirion Ranger gives you insane maneuverability, and it has a nifty advantage here as one of them. Just remember not to play a land the turn you "go off" and you can replay the Taiga after you have returned it to your hand.

Nullstone Gargoyle is not excellent on its own in some cases, but the deck operates like clockwork, so you can orchestrate when and how it comes into play. It is good alone, make no mistake, but it is a killer if it comes in after a Titan has wiped out most of the opponent's lands. This card, more than any other, makes the game a sure thing. It is a proactive resource denial element, and is therefor superior to Platinum Angel in most cases, which just hopes they don't topdeck STP. It should simply occupy the Angel spot.

Finally, Pendelhaven. I'm sure it has its uses, but it is mostly good for what, keeping Welders alive, right? In a deck that is prone to having too few basic lands you are better off with another Forest.

I tell you these things not out of my opinion just based on experience. I mean I have really (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=42561), really (http://mtgsalvation.com/247-what-next-for-legacy-past-present-and-future-of-survival.html) put some time and effort into this.

With Goblins again failing to top8, I am even less inclined to pilot this deck seriously anymore. If I were to, I would set about solving the aggro-control matchup problem. I think I would go on GRU as the colors with heavy blue to support FoW these days. But that is not an easy thing to manage.

[Nubiatem]

I'm not intenging to condescend here. Though, I suppose it may come off that way. The problem with having played nearly every popular deck in the format is that you do not get the real story for any of them. Let me impart a bit of wisdom that you come by if you pilot the deck enough. Ingot Chewer, while it is a pretty combo on paper with Genesis, is not so essential.


...quick aside about Genesis. This is the 60th most important card in the main deck in my builds. I constantly struggle with wanting to run him as a 1-of in the sb instead of in the main. He is the last resort of the deck against the overwhelming majority of the field. If this needs clarification I will do so, but it is a long talk, so I am skipping it for now...

I prefer Tin Street Hooligan because it is a bonafide aggro dude in a deck that REALLY needs an aggro element. And it is a 2-for-1. The Chewer-Genesis stuff is fine, but consider how Genesis got in the GY in the first place. Did your opponent let you resolve an Intuition? Are you using Survival? You should be dominating the game the first time you untap with Survival in play. If that is the case, there is no need for Chewers and such. You have already removed the hate the opponent has stacked up against you getting this far. If the opponent has not or could not do this, there is no need to worry since you will be winning that game. The Hooligan gets you card advantage and a threat at a point in the match when you have nothing going yet. Chewer-Genesis is a "cool thing" that does not. And if you need it to, Hooligan can still be brought back with Genesis, though you will want to simply Survival up another instead most of the time.


Ok...
genesis and chewer > tin street hooligan

This deck is combo not aggro a simple 2/1 for 2 mana is nothing.

Genesis can get in the GY many many ways...its all situational.

if the needle is on welder then you use survival to search it out.
If the needle is on survival you use intuition after landing a mesmeric fiend or a cabal therapy to make sure its safe
if you need to kill a crypt just tutor for survival then get the ingot chewer going

If you use tin street as a 4 of in the SB that is way to many slots this way only uses 2 slots and thats a lot better in my opinion.

[Finn]

Well, OK. You can believe what you want. My parting comment is that I have been through the testing, the tournaments, and also this conversation with every Johhnie-come-lately who wanted to give the deck a try many, many times since 2004. Try to consider the possibility that there is more than meets the eye here.

Anyway, I have said my part. Good luck to you.

[hi-val]

Finn, regarding Pendelhaven: If an opponent has Wasteland, they're going to Wasteland you, period. That's the approach that I've been taking with this specific manabase. Having one basic, or even two, isn't going to protect you a whole lot if someone is dedicated to blowing you out with Wastes. There's one school of thought that would say forget it, I'm not running any basics and to hell with getting Wasted, it'll happen anyway. I'm more in that camp every day. With ten fetchlands to sit on, one can very possibly get the one or two mana it needs, even in the face of a crucible lock, for example. Pendelhaven's main use isn't pumping Welders, it's being a non-Forest forest.

Getting my Taigas blown out isn't a real problem, so I'm in agreement with you.

Nullstone Gargoyle in the Plat spot is something that I had not thought of. Good suggestion, I'll try it out.

[Tacosnape]

I still think Arcbound Overseer is worth a slot for the near-instant annihilation it provides with Triskelion. 10/10 Hasted Triskelions with Machine Gun for 9 potential are pretty sweet.

[Finn]

Hi-val I see your point. The fact is that Wasteland is not usually a problem. But if you do things my way it should never ever be. I run a single Forest and a single Mountain. And I have a single Sakura-Tribe Elder. He is primarily there to fetch the single Mountain.

When I was really playing this deck a lot, the locals developed a strategy of destroying only the Taigas. Consequently, even if I managed to get a Welder out with, say Chrome Mox set to Red, I would get the Welders picked off because Anger was dormant. This was my very effective solution. I went through all that just to point out that the deck can now function in the face of Wasteland with near impunity. But with three to four colors, mana is always very tight. Since my solution flicks boogers in the face of removal for my Welders (because of the near certainty of haste), I do not need to pump him to boost his defense. And honestly, how many other 1/1's will you be satisfied keeping in a deck that has to strain hard to keep an aggro presence? The pros just seem to outweigh the cons by a wide margin here.

A thing on mana though. I settled on white as my thrd color a long while ago. And I no longer think that is correct. So there may be other options for this now.

Hell, I just read your post again...about the non-forest part. I never once in literally hundreds of games, never once had a problem producing mana after the Titan came to town. I meant to say that in my initial response.

[hi-val]

Quirion Ranger looks elite when you're untapping Welder and banging Titan in and out of play to kill eight lands. I'm not sure I'm going to be tutoring for it a lot, but worth testing out. How often do you go hunting for Ranger? When I ran it back in Vial Survival, I never tutored for it but had it in as a 1-of because I was always happy to draw it. Tell me about how you and Ranger relate!

[from Cairo]

Quirion Ranger is elite!
fixed

He helps you ramp up mana early game with Birds, he untaps welders, he returns crucial land to your hand before Sundering Titan blows the world up. Definitely run 1-2 Ranger.

[jeremys]

I was more of Hi-Val's position, always happy to draw him but I don't remember tutoring for him much. Granted, it was a while ago that I played the deck. My question would be what would you run instead of the ranger and does it seem like it will be more useful. Of course I was running phyrexian colossus as well and it was fun to watch my opponents as I untapped it without paying the 8 life and killed them.


fixed

He helps you ramp up mana early game with Birds, he untaps welders, he returns crucial land to your hand before Sundering Titan blows the world up. Definitely run 1-2 Ranger.

[Finn]

Tell me about how you and Ranger relate!Umm...speechless about this.

Anyway, I blabbed about the coolness of Titan w/out the need to put special cards in to save your own lands. Well, this chick is actually the special stuff. Titan's destroy effect on lands is not a targeting one, so the truly sleazy interaction with Ranger is not possible. That is, you can not target the proper lands, and then return one of your own that happened to be targeted before resolution. Instead the Titan just has a look around when it resolves to see what's there. So you will lose a land or two from the Titan. But the opponent should be essentially landless if you went for the Ranger first.

I usually go for her against an opponent I think might have a trick or two - counterspells, gy hate, or creature removal are typical. Put her out first because they will not mess with her. If they can delay your Welder activation for a turn or two, you will be able to pounce hard when you actually get it off. She puts the nails in the coffin. The Titan situation is naturally the most abusive. You get 3 rounds of land kills before they get to their next draw step, and you get a lot more control over when the Nullstone is around.

My point is that these are the hard matchups. Forget the easy ones. Yes, BoP will speed up Survival online by a turn, but this all goes down turn 4 latest even w/out them. Aggro is not the deck to build against. Do you really think Thresh is going to bother doing anything about a BoP? Birds are a dead card there, so they do not make the cut. Phyrexian Colossus is a killer, but will it has no control functions at all. A 7/10 or even a 4/5 are plenty good enough if the opponent can not do anything. You really only need them plus a Triskelion and a Duplicant for lock cards/win conditions. If you can be sure you are Survivaling on schedule, the other important cards are the ones that save you against effective hate. Quirion Ranger is in this category. All that is left is the fall back plan. I recommend a decent suite of aggro. Tarmo, anyone?