[Article] Unlocking Legacy - European Developments II

[Zach Tartell]

Link! (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15135.html)

What's going on over the pond? Doug takes a look at several large-attendance Legacy events in Europe and beyond, highlighting new decks like Doran Aggro and interesting twists on old ones like Faerie Stompy. Join him as he scours results for tech and discusses its adaptability in the American metagame. Then, pull it all together with metagame analysis that spans continents!

[xsockmonkeyx]

Vision Charm was my supah sekit Dreadnaught tech. Thanks for telling everyone jerkface :P

[BreathWeapon]

Dreadnought would be seen so much more if it weren't for Goyf, I 8> Vision Charm.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I don't get it. Vision Charm is a terrible card.

[Anusien]

Did you miss where Vision Charm can phase out Dreadnought in response to Swords to Plowshares, or are you merely unimpressed? If it's the former, now you know. If it's the latter, BLASPHEMY.

Seriously, I've wanted to run Avoid Fate for quite some time in Threshold because it seems like your creatures are finally valuable enough on the whole to want to protect. Vision Charm is Avoid Fate + Stifle for Dreadnoughts.

And on the side note, it acts as disruption against High Tides!

[xsockmonkeyx]

Did you miss where Vision Charm can phase out Dreadnought in response to Swords to Plowshares, or are you merely unimpressed? If it's the former, now you know. If it's the latter, BLASPHEMY.

Seriously, I've wanted to run Avoid Fate for quite some time in Threshold because it seems like your creatures are finally valuable enough on the whole to want to protect. Vision Charm is Avoid Fate + Stifle for Dreadnoughts.

And on the side note, it acts as disruption against High Tides!

Yeah, it also nabs Mirage tutors and can dump 5 cards in your graveyard for 1 mana.

Given all that though its still kinda crappy because if you dont have a Dreadnought then Vision Charm is, well, Vision Charm. The nice thing about Stifle/Nought is that Stifle is infinitely more useful on it's own.

[Eldariel]

The Faerie Stompy-build is interesting, but MD Threads is almost certainly wrong. Due to the unwieldy CC of 1UU, you could instead be playing Control Magic and stealing everything, and casting it just as easily. The lack of versatility with Threads just isn't worth the fact that maybe once in 20 games you can cast it off 3 Islands when you couldn't have cast Control Magic. There's a reason nothing in the deck costs 1UU.

Mind Harness - awesome! I've been hoping for that card to see play for 2 years now. It's awesome. And that Doran-deck is one I always wanted to build. As for Burn, it's worth remembering that people play other decks with horrible, horrible combo-MUs like Goblins, WW, Stompy, Life from the Loam, etc. and win with them. It's fully possible to either face no combo, or face just one combo in the swiss and Top 8 in spite of one loss, or even get lucky and win that one (most of those decks have fast enough clock to be able to get lucky against combo, and some disruption). Burn, despite my personal hatred of the archetype, does beat up on Goblins, poses a fast clock and effectively works as a combo-deck with the absolute maximum redundancy; 42-46 cards all doing the same thing. That makes disrupting it much harder since hitting any specific card is going to do you no good; you can't cut off the engine, you just need to brute force the whole deck away if you plan on winning. Of course, Goyf Sligh tends to be plain better, but Burn isn't a strictly inferior choice, nor is it a choice that shouldn't be winning tournaments. It just means you'll need a bunch of luck to do so (and if Chalices get more popular in accordance to Worlds-metagame, might be that the deck should just be abandoned; Stax, Dragon Stompy and Faerie are all bad news).

[Goaswerfraiejen]

How did you see ahead to December 16th, 2007? :tongue:

[Barook]

I like that Doran list. Just two things about it:

1) Is the life loss due to fetches and Bob really so high that you can't afford running Thoughtseize?
2) Are the Wastelands really worth it in a 3-colored deck with an optional LD in form of Vindicate?

[Versus]

I wanted to put Doran in a Legacy deck since he was spoiled, but was influenced away from it by others claiming "shaky manabase" issues. The whole while he's been doing fine in my Painland-Gemstone-Village-Basic-Mess of a manabase in type 2. If I can consistantly cast him there on turn 2/3, I don't see why he couldn't be in the land of dual/fetch. I guess I should have persued it.

[Nihil Credo]

A terrific article, and the section titles are a nice touch. My only complaint is that you didn't identify the WW list as Death and Taxes.

[hi-val]

A terrific article, and the section titles are a nice touch. My only complaint is that you didn't identify the WW list as Death and Taxes.

I am SO GLAD someone noticed the section titles : )

It was an oversight to not call it D&T; it was listed as WW in the report so I erroneously went with that.

[Happy Gilmore]

Mind Harness! Take that Alix! I was considering playing it in my SB at GP: philly and have entertained the thought one and a while since then. It always seemed too underpowered for my liking and this is only more true with the insane cards available if you splash. I like it in UG though...a lot.

[kabal]

Mind Harness - awesome! I've been hoping for that card to see play for 2 years now. It's awesome.

Speaking of Mind Harness, once the deck in question was listed at German Magic there has been some discussion in the UG Threshould (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6693&page=11) thread.


Just browsing through some Top 8 lists, and noticed this build (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12123).


Mind Harness (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/78.html)
(1), Enchantment - Aura
Enchant red or green creature.
Cumulative Upkeep - {1}.
You control enchanted creature.

It makes sense for a U/G to run this card, since it has next to no removable and considering today's meta. Is it better than Threads or Control Magic? Once it gets around to attacking, you have invested 2 mana. Second attack, you now equal to Threads. But then you have invested less mana per turn, which still allows you to cantrip and cast cheap counter magic.

How about the Red side of it; what Red creatures would you take? If we are talking Goblins; Warchief, Kiki or I guess could be any targetable Goblin?

What are your guys thoughts on its inclusion?


Mind Harness seems a little to narrow compared to Shackels. Shackels is reusable and doesn't have a Cumulative Upkeep. Plus Shackels can get creature of other colors. Yes sometimes they are played.

My feeling is Shackels should at least be a staple in the SB for this deck, and if the meta warrents it MD at least 2. Reason being that with almost no removal you need some that you can reuse, and other then Wasteland and Fetches every land is a Island.

@Counterbalance: I recently used it in a bigger tournament and found it to be alright. I would probaly go for at least 3 in the MD. You can proably get away with 2 Tops since you can cantrip until you find one.


Mind Harness was awesome all day. Stole so many Goyf, it's crazy.

Shackles is sooo slow in this deck, and you rarely have more than 3 lands anyway.

[hi-val]

My question would be if you would ever hit the 5 lands to steal a Tarmogoyf in a Threshold deck. Harness is considerably narrower, but it does do the job every day of the week for one fifth of the mana to start out with that Shackles needs.

[Illissius]

Threads is the better comparison, I think.

[AnwarA101]

I am tickled by the inclusion of Strategic Planning. It's an amazing card and far better than Predict in Threshold decks that don't also run Counterspell (as instants become more valuable). It's a selective Mental Note for only a mana more.


Why is Strategic Planning amazing? Why is it better than Predict? It only puts one more card in the yard and puts one less card in your hand. It seems especially poor in this build as it doesn't let you keep Stifle and Spell Snare mana open as it is a sorcery.



That said, Legacy seems to be slowing down, so this could be just the thing to seal the deal in the deck.


How is Legacy slowing down? Ichorid and Breakfast can win in the first 3 turns of the game. Belcher is a turn 1 deck. Threshold is faster than ever with Tarmogoyf.

[MattH]

How is Legacy slowing down? Ichorid and Breakfast can win in the first 3 turns of the game. Belcher is a turn 1 deck. Threshold is faster than ever with Tarmogoyf.
Belcher and other ETW decks have been dropping off in favor of more Threshold, from what I've seen. Remember how much of a panic a lot of people were in right before Flash, when ETW was popping up everywhere, and people were scrambling for answers? That isn't happening anymore.

Threshold isn't slow but it's not a turn 1-4 kill, so every player who drops zoo or goblins or combo for threshold slows the format down a little.

Survival also is on the rise, or so it seems from where I sit.

[hi-val]

There's a scene on the Simpsons where a doctor is explaining to Mr. Burns that he is healthy because there are so many bacteria in his body that they get jammed trying to enter the door and get stuck. I think of that when I think of Legacy at the moment. You have a lot of superfast decks that slam into each other and end up slowing things down. Bringing up Cephalid Breakfast and Belcher in defense of a fast format can be countered, I feel, by the upswing in Landstill and BBS decks as well.

Meandeck Tendrils was a 60% turn 1 kill deck in Vintage, and Vintage Belcher decks play at a similar clip. However, the presence of bl00 cards in the format means that they aren't really tearing things up.

In so much of the playtesting I've been doing, I'm surprised at how many games end on turn eleven instead of turn five. The format isn't blazing fast, which makes me happy. It leads to a bit more diversity.

EDIT: I like Strat Plans over Predict because you don't need other cards to set it up, and if you want to pair it with Mental Note, you get this great Threshold-building engine. Clearly, if you're holding Spell Snare or Stifle and think they're useful, you hold back mana, or maybe you Strat Plans for a land and then make sure you can still hold those spells up. Players aren't so foolish that they'll make terrible decisions like turning off Spell Snare against Survival, for example.

[AnwarA101]

EDIT: I like Strat Plans over Predict because you don't need other cards to set it up, and if you want to pair it with Mental Note, you get this great Threshold-building engine. Clearly, if you're holding Spell Snare or Stifle and think they're useful, you hold back mana, or maybe you Strat Plans for a land and then make sure you can still hold those spells up. Players aren't so foolish that they'll make terrible decisions like turning off Spell Snare against Survival, for example.

You used the word amazing. I don't see how reaching Threshold perhaps a turn sooner with 1 less card in hand is amazing. Having to choose between playing draw spells and playing your disruption is worse than not having to make that choice. It costs you tempo if your opponent doesn't do anything that can be Spell Snared or Stifled and you didn't play Strategic Planning, but if you play Predict you don't have to make that choice.

[Sigar]

You make it sound like Predict doesn't need any kind of setup, it does. Otherwise it sucks.

I only ran 3 copies of Strategic Planning since it's not a spell you usually want to cast on turn 2. It fills the yard and often finds you just what you need. It's an amazing mid-late game topdeck, whereas if you draw a Predict it does nothing on it's own.

[AnwarA101]

You make it sound like Predict doesn't need any kind of setup, it does. Otherwise it sucks.

I only ran 3 copies of Strategic Planning since it's not a spell you usually want to cast on turn 2. It fills the yard and often finds you just what you need. It's an amazing mid-late game topdeck, whereas if you draw a Predict it does nothing on it's own.

There are plenty of ways to setup Predict: Brainstorm, Ponder, Portent, Top, and even Counterbalance come to mind.

My main point was the lack of synergy between having a 2cc sorcery in a deck where you want to have at least :u: open for disruption. The fact that you play only 3 I guess makes it less of an issue, but it seems like Predict would be better especially if you ran more ways to manipulate the top of your library since those cards help you find the best cards in any given matchup anyway.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Strategic Planning is almost strictly worse than Impulse, providing a weaker effect at sorcery-speed. The only potential advantage the card has over Impulse (and need I remind you, Impulse has never seen play in Legacy Threshold), is that Strategic Planning might help you fill the yard quicker.

If you aren't playing it on turn two, the card isn't even doing that. It's just awful.

[Bovinious]

Is someone actually promoting the use of some crappy Portal 3 uncommon in Thresh over actual good cards? Like Alix said, that thing is awful, I mean seriously its almost as bad as Mental Note, and THAT is saying something...

[Machinus]

Stategic Planning helps you get different card types into the graveyard. It pumps tarmogoyf more often than you'd think.

[hi-val]

Is someone actually promoting the use of some crappy Portal 3 uncommon in Thresh over actual good cards? Like Alix said, that thing is awful, I mean seriously its almost as bad as Mental Note, and THAT is saying something...

I'm just reporting the facts, here. And the fact in this case is that a deck with 3 Strat Plans made 5th place in a 96-person event. I think that, while not "proven" good, that lends a shade of credibility to it.

Also, it's a sorcery, which is nice I hear with Tarmogoyf and a deck that plays only four sorceries as it is. And lol it's bloo pitches to FOW lol. I really don't get why people are hung up on it being a sorcery, too. Don't most/all of your threshold games start like turn 1 cantrip, turn 2 2cc dude or hold up Spell Snare, turn 3 2cc card and hold up stifle/snare? I've rarely played games where I absolutely need to play a draw spell on turn 2 because I have depleted my hand. I can certainly understand the logic in running 3 and holding onto it as a turn 3 or turn 4 play.

And as for Impulse in Threshold, it did see a LOT of play in Super Gro...


Also interesting: I've seen a lot more UG Threshold in Europe than I have in the states. Any theories on this? Do we Yanks just love our Thoughtsiezes and Lightning Bolts? It's a very peculiar geographic trend.

[Bovinious]

I'm just reporting the facts, here. And the fact in this case is that a deck with 3 Strat Plans made 5th place in a 96-person event. I think that, while not "proven" good, that lends a shade of credibility to it.


Well Threshold is a good deck, occaisionally it will still do well playing bad cards. Like someone said in the goblins thread, occaisionally goblins would top8 even with Mishra's War Machine...same goes for Threshold. I guess its at least noteworthy someone ran the card, however.

[Tacosnape]

I'm just reporting the facts, here. And the fact in this case is that a deck with 3 Strat Plans made 5th place in a 96-person event. I think that, while not "proven" good, that lends a shade of credibility to it.


I think that lends a shade of credibility to the deck and not the card. Matchups and individual games are random enough to where inferior builds can very often finish higher than superior ones.

[Sigar]

In the last 5 out of 6 tournaments here I've made top 8 - all with strategic planning in the deck.

But hey, maybe it's just pure luck as you say. All I know is that the card has worked well for me.

[kabal]

In the last 5 out of 6 tournaments here I've made top 8 - all with strategic planning in the deck.

But hey, maybe it's just pure luck as you say. All I know is that the card has worked well for me.

Can you give you examples of what average turn you use "Planning" and how it affected the game? Maybe like adding +2/+2 to Goyf and filtered off dead cards on the top or giving Threshold where you would not have for another turn or two.

[BreathWeapon]

Strategic Planning is a fine card, a lot of times Predict falls short of Strategic Planning because Predict it requires set up for card advantage and it doesn't have card selection. I can't count the number of times that Strategic Planning into Force of Will has saved the game.

There are a lot of functional cards for the slot, all of which have their own strengths and weaknesses, for whatever reason people just tend to be either snobs for their particular cantrip or against some one else's particular cantrip, which cantrip you use depends on your deck and your style.

[Phantom]

Am I the only one that sees no reason at all for the two casting cost cantrips in Threshold anymore? I mean, we have Brainstorm, Ponder, Serum Visions, and Portent. Pick the number you want and the ones you like best and go to cantrip/dig town.

Most lists have cut Counterspell (and Mystic Enforcer) for Spell Snare which means that the deck can basically be run with two duals. Why would you want to fuck with that with mediocre 2cc draw spells, whether it be Predict, or Planning? Also, the deck is now less dependant on having a specific number of cards in the yard (7) with the rise of Goyf, so cards like Mental Note and Planning are, in my eyes, completely necessary.

[AnwarA101]

Am I the only one that sees no reason at all for the two casting cost cantrips in Threshold anymore? I mean, we have Brainstorm, Ponder, Serum Visions, and Portent. Pick the number you want and the ones you like best and go to cantrip/dig town.


I agree the 1cc cantrips are very good. There might not be any room for 2cc ones.



Most lists have cut Counterspell (and Mystic Enforcer) for Spell Snare which means that the deck can basically be run with two duals. Why would you want to fuck with that with mediocre 2cc draw spells, whether it be Predict, or Planning? Also, the deck is now less dependant on having a specific number of cards in the yard (7) with the rise of Goyf, so cards like Mental Note and Planning are, in my eyes, completely necessary.

I think many people have cut Counterspell for Counterbalance. Its very good against combo, control, and the mirror.

[FoolofaTook]

I think many people have cut Counterspell for Counterbalance. Its very good against combo, control, and the mirror.

Counterbalance makes Brainstorm even more valuable, if that's possible given Brainstorm's strength already. It does add the requirement to reserve 2 or 3 slots for the Sensei's Divining Top and that's not an easy thing to do in Threshold.

You can't really replace the cantrips or the creatures so inevitably you wind up removing a few of the relatively limited solutions the deck has. This gives you less after the fact removal in return for the card advantage and soft lock that an effective Counterbalance/Top deployment creates.

[Iranon]

Vision Charm is utterly cute and would also work in a Threshold shell with the Stiflenaught mini-combo: If the situation warrants it, it's also a very aggressive tool for reaching Threshold (next thing in line from Predict over Mental Note).

I absolutely love the countless random-ass applications... causing a suddenly unequipped creature to make a suicide attack, getting rid of an Ensnaring Bridge for an Alpha Strike, whatever. Each of them is utterly neglegible, but a nice way to get an opponent to fume if they lose to it.