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emidln
12-10-2007, 02:42 AM
This is something that was moderately interesting to me that I thought the class might be interested in as well. This is a take on a deck done by Mr. Becker of Vintage fame earlier this year. The concept is to control the game with good spells that you can recur with Jotun Grunt and tutors. By reshuffling Merchant Scrolls, Intuitions, and Accumulated Knowledge #4 into your deck, you can gain great advantage by continously retutoring for the answer you need or drawing into it. Additionally, Grunt lets you recur things like Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares that are good cards to tutor up or draw into. This is still a rough concept, but I think it's worthy of discussion.

// Original Testbed "Legacy Intuition Control"
// Colored Mana
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Island
4 Mox Diamond

// Utility Lands
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
3 Lonely Sandbar

// Creatures
2 Shriekmaw
4 Jotun Grunt

// Control
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

// Tutor Engine
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Intuition

// Card Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Life from the Loam

Possible sideboard stuff includes:

Pithing Needle
Krosan Grip
Extirpate
Duress
Stifle/Trickbind
Evacuation
Echoing Truth
Rebuild
Misdirection


As you can see, I've added in a number of juicy targets for you to pull yourself out of almost any situation. To get a full understanding of what you have available, let's go through a little list:

Merchant Scroll finds:

Force of Will
Intuition
Accumulated Knowledge
Brainstorm
random 1-of instants (Mystical Tutor?), possibly boarded cards

So, with Scroll, you can fetch up countermagic, your engine to get you going, accumulated knowledge if you're looking for card draw pre or post Intuition for trips AK, Brainstorm against discard or when AK is undesirable, and solutions for various problems like Echoing Truth against Empty the Warrens, Rebuild against artifacts, stifle/trickbind against combo, and misdirection against targeted removal (discard or stp).

Intuition finds:

Infinite EE - Academy Ruins/Engineered Explosives/Life from the Loam
Infinite Shriekmaw - Volrath's Stronghold/Shriekmaw/Life from the Loam
Wastelock - Wasteland/Life from the Loam/RANDOM_CARD
Draw Engine - Accumulated Knowledge x3
Tutor for Engineered Explosives - (EE/EE/EE)
Tutor for Force of Will - (Force/Force/Force)
Tutor for STP - (STP/STP/STP)
Tutor Chain for AK #4/1-of Instant (Merchant Scroll/Merchant Scroll/Merchant Scroll)

It's worth noting that Intuition and Scroll can find each other for when you need specific tutoring. This lets you tutor chain into an engine that solves whatever issue you're having.

As I've said before, Jotun Grunt functions to resupply you with card draw, tutoring, and control until you've won the game. Using Jotun Grunt to recur Jotun Grunt, you have an infinite supply of Jotun Grunts.

Caveats:

This list seems slightly slow right now.
This list is wrecked by graveyard hate.
Jotun Grunt is an awful win condition.
EE @ 0/Academy Ruins is little better as an alternate.
The manabase is wonky.

Aggro_zombies
12-10-2007, 03:08 AM
1+ Cunning Wish seems like it could be good here. Also, isn't there some blue instant called Relearn or something that gets back instants and sorceries from the yard?

BreathWeapon
12-10-2007, 03:21 AM
Isn't AK and Loam over kill, and what good is black?

Nydaeli
12-10-2007, 03:21 AM
I love Intuition-based control and this list looks really solid. It has a major "danger of cool things" problem, though - it may need to lose some of the awesome Scroll/Intuition interactions for a more productive game plan.

Specific card choices:
Is 23 lands + 4 MoxD enough? Especially with 3 CIPT?
Cephalid Coliseum is really good with Loam, as a singleton.
You may want a tutorable win condition - either a land (Nantuko Monastery?) or artifact fat (Triskelavus?).
EE is the only target for Academy Ruins in your list. Does that justify Ruins' inclusion?

There is so much I want to fit in this deck and I'm not sure how to do it in a focused manner.

emidln
12-10-2007, 03:23 AM
Isn't AK and Loam over kill, and what good is black?

Infinite Shriekmaw. It's extremely likely that a tournament approach to this deck would need black sideboard material.

Benie Bederios
12-10-2007, 07:22 AM
Like the deck... have been working on such deck for a while, but was completely flamed away as soon as I posted it:tongue:

I used Trinket Mage with some 1-offs in the deck. It could find EE, Top, Crypt. I even played a singleton Locket of Yesterday. Mid game it made Accumulated Knowledge and Merchant Scroll in 1 CC tutor/drawspells.

Also Grunt is as good as finisher in Legacy as it is in Vintage. In Vintage it normally swings for the win in 5 turns, with all the creatures in Legacy it's alot thougher. Anyway I agree with Nydaeli that you need another wincon who can finish the game fast.

BB

myselves
12-10-2007, 09:25 AM
Like the deck...
Me too.



Also Grunt is as good as finisher in Legacy as it is in Vintage. In Vintage it normally swings for the win in 5 turns, with all the creatures in Legacy it's alot thougher. Anyway I agree with Nydaeli that you need another wincon who can finish the game fast.

The Grunt can finish fast enough, and you also have the infinite Shriekmaw, so it won't be a problem to finish with Grunt, and other possible finishers like Goofy or Tombstalker don't work with the Grunt.

@Deck: why do you run 3 Explosives? EtW and so on you could also handle with Stifle. Stifle can be used to disrupt your opponent, Explosives can't.

emidln
12-10-2007, 10:58 AM
Me too.


The Grunt can finish fast enough, and you also have the infinite Shriekmaw, so it won't be a problem to finish with Grunt, and other possible finishers like Goofy or Tombstalker don't work with the Grunt.

@Deck: why do you run 3 Explosives? EtW and so on you could also handle with Stifle. Stifle can be used to disrupt your opponent, Explosives can't.

EE is a spot removal spell in this format that just happens to kill creature hordes and sometimes nets virtual card advantage. Really, when I was building the deck was looking at this:

// Stuff that kills the format's most prevalent creatures
2 Shriekmaw
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Intuition -> Shriekmaw_recursion/EE_recursion
4 Merchant Scroll -> Intuition -> Shriekmaw_recursion/EE_recursion/STP/EE

Banelich
12-11-2007, 01:12 AM
Little off topic for this thread to an extent, but rather than posting another decklist heres some more Jotun abuse with search effects.

....I have a WG / splash Black deck - heres a few cards I found useful that other ppl may consider for various other builds;

Eldamri's Call
Land Grant
Rememberance <----Unbelievable with Jotun though a bit combo-ish

Creatures that work with Rememberance (:3::w: - Enchantment - Whenever a non-token creature you control is put into a graveyard, search your library for a creature card with the same name as that card. If you do reveal it and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.)

Sakura Tribe Elder
Viridian Zealot
Ravenous Baloth
Timbermare (with or without berserk)
Jotun Grunt
Children of Korlis
Peacekeeper

94teen
12-11-2007, 01:16 AM
I really like this idea. I've always loved intuition and Gifts Ungiven based decks.

What do people think about mashing this and TarmoTog together? I hate do say it, but this deck does look like it could use Tarmogoyf in some numbers. It also looks like Psychatog would be alright in this deck as a singleton. I really agree that this looks like it's taking The Danger of Cool things to an extreme, but it is really, really cool.

I'm not a huge fan of the green splash for Life from the Loam. You could accomplish essentially the same thing with Petrified Field. I realize it might end up being a turn slower (probably actually) but it lessens the need to stretch the mana base. LftL is probably better on the whole, just something to consider.

I do like the idea of a singleton mystical tutor to merchant scroll into to find random stuff. Nostalgic Dreams would be a good card in this case just as an I win card. It's hard for most people to deal with you recurring 4 AK's or whatnot.

xsockmonkeyx
12-11-2007, 01:41 AM
Any reason the OP list is 61 cards?

BreathWeapon
12-11-2007, 04:02 AM
Children of Korlis seems cute with the color combination, he chumps Goblin Lackey and gives Tendrils of Agony fits, so it's not as if he's useless by himself.

emidln
12-11-2007, 06:17 AM
Any reason the OP list is 61 cards?

I'm playing a control deck with an extreme number of toolboxes. I didn't feel like cutting anything, and have ran control decks with 61 cards in the past to success. I'm honestly not looking to get into a debate on it, so if you don't like it, cut something. It's not like it's optimal right now anyway.

xsockmonkeyx
12-11-2007, 06:21 AM
I'm playing a control deck with an extreme number of toolboxes. I didn't feel like cutting anything, and have ran control decks with 61 cards in the past to success. I'm honestly not looking to get into a debate on it, so if you don't like it, cut something. It's not like it's optimal right now anyway.

Actually, I was wondering if there was a typo. Im not here to debate 61/60 cards for the billionth time.

emidln
12-11-2007, 06:22 AM
Actually, I was wondering if there was a typo. Im not here to debate 61/60 cards for the billionth time.

Nope, it was the only way to fit all the stuff I wanted without completely forsaking my manabase (kinda failed here anyway).

xsockmonkeyx
12-11-2007, 06:31 AM
No problem.

Why so many Engineered Explosives? You can always grab the Loam, Ruins, EE pile with Intuition if you need it. Do you need the Explosives to come down quicker and more often?

emidln
12-11-2007, 07:01 AM
No problem.

Why so many Engineered Explosives? You can always grab the Loam, Ruins, EE pile with Intuition if you need it. Do you need the Explosives to come down quicker and more often?

Yeah. I use it as a general removal spell against low-cc guys, chalices, whatever ales me. Also, if I've already seen one, my Inuition pile can be better (finding a wasteland, stronghold, or cycling land instead of the ee).

Benie Bederios
12-11-2007, 05:50 PM
Hey,

I tested your list and one it had the same problem as my list... It's to slow. Seriously, I normally stabilze on -5 or something( in other words one turn late.) All of your engines are freaking slow, and you have absolutly nothing for the early game, well that is 4 FoW, 4 Swords and 2 Shriekmaw. Even against Casual elves( he played Heedless One) I lost because I got my engine running a turn to late, I demolished all creatures except a Skyshroud Elite and a Eladamri, and I had a Trop and was on 2 life.

I'm going to throw in alot more disruption that is good from the start. I was thinking of 4 Counterspell/Spellsnare/Daze, 4 Force of Will, 4 Duress/Thoughtseize and 4 Swords to Plowshare. Don't know how to fit in though, probably need to drop an engine, maybe green, but the landtoolbox is really nice.

Anyway I will keep you up to date.

BB

PS.

Here is my old list I posted a while ago. It's only 2 colors and Shriekmaw wasn't out yet.

Lands
3 Island
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Seat of the Syno

Creatures
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Trinket Mage

Other
4 Counterspell
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Swords to Plowshare
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Disenchant
3 Tividiar's Crusade
4 Meddling Mage
3 Chill

94teen
12-14-2007, 08:08 PM
Two things. Firstly, I think AK should be moved to the sideboard. Intuition -> AK is a great engine, especially when you have merchant scroll to go find the last AK multiple times. However, I think that this engine is more suited to the control matchup than anything else. Against combo and aggro, you're not going to want to make that play, and so you've got 4 maindeck dead cards against most of the metagame.

Second, is the green splash entirely necessary? I really think that there has to be something else that can be done with the LftL toolbox slots. I realize the importance of Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins, but the singleton wasteland, Lonely Sandbar, et all seem very extraneous. I'm a supporter of LftL shenanigans, but not in this kind of deck.

This does, however, seem like the kind of shell that Trinket Mage + Salvagers would work well in. You just have to control the game by recurring FoW's and Merchant Scrolls and AK's until you can safely tutor up LED off a trinket mage and win.

hi-val
12-14-2007, 08:25 PM
You might consider looking at Tomi Walamies' Operation Dumbo Drop deck. It's the sickest ever, and the reason I bring it up is that it ran Gaea's Blessings. You should investigate whether they'll be better than Grunt. I cannot guarantee it, but it'd be worth checking. Creatures have kind of a glass jaw, and dropping them might open up things like Wrath.

Phantom
12-14-2007, 08:40 PM
Ok. I'm not at all familiar with this sort of recursive control deck, but I am familiar with Legacy, so here are some thoughts:

- If you are having trouble with the early game, I would suggest Deeds and Tarmogoyfs. I know you can't get Deed back like Explosives, but it's effect vs. Aggro is so much better. Also, stronghold + Goyf is amazing, even if Grunt is more synergistic here (though Grunt does much better work early game).

- Drop the AK draw engine. If you need to Intuition for a draw engine, you always have Loam and cyclers, right? Ponder is a much better choice if you need more cantrips than just Brainstorm.