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StarHawk
12-10-2007, 02:50 PM
Okay here I go.

Lands-22
Fetch-6
Windswept Heaths-3
Flooded Strands-3
Duels-4
Tropical Islands-4
Basic-12
Islands-7
Forests-5

Win-Conditions-7
Allosaurus Riders-3
TArmogoyf-4

Draw-16
Big-Draws-4
Opportunitys-2
Harmonizes-2
Cantrips-12
Creature-Cantrips-4
Wall of Blossoms-4
Instant-Cantrips-4
Brainstorms-4
Sorcery-Cantrips-4
Serum Visions-4

Counterspells-12
Instant-Counterspells-8
Counterspells-4
Force of Will-4
Creature-Counterspells-4
Mystic Snakes-4

Mass Removal-3
Artifacts-3
Nevenyrral's Disk-3

Now for the reasons I picked some of these cards.

Counterspells
Force of Wills- Blue/Green Control Force of Will Duh.
Counterspells- See above.
Mystic Snake- Probally should be something better but I don't know what. The reason it's not Counter Balance is because I don't know what to take out for Sensei's Diving Top.

Removal
Nevinyrral's Disks- A control deck without mass removal is a dead deck. There is probally better mass removal like maybe enginered explosives (Which I'm probally going to put in the side-board).

Draw
Serum Visions- A good cantrip that will help draw the land you need early on.
Brainstorms- Blue Deck Brainstorms Duh.
Wall of Blossoms- This one is probally iffy but it cantrips and has 4 toughness for a 1G. It helps block fast aggro decks ie. Goblins.
Harmonize- There probbally a lot of better draw spells but this can be pitched to Allosaurus Rider.
Opportunity- Probally should be fact or fiction only time and testing will tell.

Win Conditions
Tarmogoyf- A very fast and big beater.
Allosaurus Rider- Yah I know an Elf?! But as long as you protect your lands (and face it if you don't while playing control your'e probally going to lose) he is going to be really big Dinosaur riding elf who eats enemy tarmogoyfs for breakfast, lunch and dinner. And Face it who doesn't want to be able to say they killed the opponent with an elf.

Basic Strategies

B/G/R Vial Goblins.
This is the only competive deck I've played against (I leant my deck to a friend). If your'e facing against goblins the first thing you must do is pray to whatever higher power you call god. The second thing actually depends on what kind of hand you have. Lets say you have an opening hand consisting of Fetch, Tropical Island, Brainstorm/serum visions, Force of Will, Wall of Blossoms, Forest, and Mystic Snake. And you are on the play that's actually a pretty good hand. If that cantrip was brainstorm play your fetch and end your turn. If it was Serum Visions play the duel land and use it.
Lets say it was the brainstorm. You had passed the turn to them if they play aether vial fetch for an Island and brainstorm lets say it gets you disk, opportunity and force of will put the disk and force on top in that order. And don't counter. Same thing with lackey. Your turn draw the disk play a forest and play wall, draw the force. There turn they play a piledriver don't counter it. Your turn you draw an island play it. There turn they play counter it with force removing msystic snake. Your turn you draw a goyf, play the duel play disk. There turn they play hooligan counter it. They than vial in matron and get ringleader. Your turn you draw serum vision. Use it you draw Allosaurus Rider (Thank the god you prayed to earlier.) You look at the to cards they are harmonize and an island put harmonize on top with island under it. Play the goyf and end turn. They vial in ringleader and get the nuts but they only play Wort bogat Auntie. Your turn you play harmonize draw island, fetch, and goyf (my we're lucky today) play the fetch than attack. Blow the disk and play goyf. There turn they they play warchief, piledriver, and fanatic, they attack block piledriver. Your turn you draw opportunity, play the last land in hand. there turn they play ringleader you use opportunity and draw the nuts (force,mystic snake, brainstorm, and land). You counter the ringleader removing snake. your turn you draw a disk. you play land play the elf thats in your hand. You eventually win even though youre health is like 3. The funny thing is this was an actuall game I played.

The only other deck I played this against was a five color 80 card sliver deck. Which I crushed.

Any help with the deck would be appreciated.

When I test some more I'll post results.

raharu
12-10-2007, 03:50 PM
I would sugest about 2-4 maindeck Voidslime.

UUG
Instant
Counter target spell, activated ability, or triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.)

What do you think?

outsideangel
12-10-2007, 06:05 PM
Try out Fact or Fiction as some of the bigger draw spells.

Also think about including 1 or 2 copies of Academy Ruins to recur Disk. If you do that, maybe include an artifact kill condition so you can recur that too.

And yes, Counter-Top would probably be very strong here. Take out Serum Visions and add Top, and take out Mystic Snake and add Counterbalance, I think.

xander
12-11-2007, 02:03 AM
Academy ruins to keep returning youre Mass D artifact. But maybe go cheaper like Poweder or E.E.

StarHawk
12-11-2007, 02:32 PM
I would suggest about 2-4 main deck Voidslime.

UUG
Instant
Counter target spell, activated ability, or triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.)

What do you think?

I actually think counterbalance would be better thanks.


Try out Fact or Fiction as some of the bigger draw spells.

Also think about including 1 or 2 copies of Academy Ruins to recur Disk. If you do that, maybe include an artifact kill condition so you can recur that too.

And yes, Counter-Top would probably be very strong here. Take out Serum Visions and add Top, and take out Mystic Snake and add Counterbalance, I think.

Thanks how about mindslaver that would probably help the control mirror I think. Also opportunity should be replaced with fact I think.


Academy ruins to keep returning your Mass D artifact. But maybe go cheaper like Powder or E.E.

I think powder keg probably would be better than disk.

I actually don't have allot of time to post because I use the library's computer so I wasn't able to finish yesterday's right up so here goes. As far as the goblin match up goes barring a god hand or them having a poor hand or playing skills it is a really bad match-up. It's not unwinnable but really hard. Hopefully with some changes and a properly designed sideboard it will get better.

Theoretically (because I can't say for certain as the only competive deck to test against is my own goblins) Combo should be a good match-up. Against blue based decks you would try to force a tarmogoyf or allasouras rider into play as early as possible and start beating while countering crucial spells like high tide. Against iccorid countering fist turn lion's eye diamond is a must. Getting a powder keg set for 0 is second priority. From there it gets easier, but don't get cocky because they will probably play around keg.

I have no clue how this will do against other control or how it would do against thresh (besides the fact that white thresh is going to be the hardest [swords to plowshares] followed by black than red). Any more help with the main and sideboard would be appreciated.

raharu
12-11-2007, 03:37 PM
How big is Allosarus Rider getting for you? Would a Vinelasher Kuduz setup (Crop Ratation, Exploration, Fetches) work better for you, or is the Rider the best thing you've tested?

Cavius The Great
12-12-2007, 11:47 AM
I personally would cut the opportunity and harmonize for 4 Accumulated Knowledges. but if you crave a big mana spell, Tidings is better than both harmonize and opportunity. Ponder is another option as well. I also can't figure out why you're not running 4 Daze. It's a must for any blue control deck. And if you need more green cards for Allosaurus Rider, Voidslime is always an option.

kirdape3
12-12-2007, 12:21 PM
This deck already exists, is the best deck in the format, and is called UG Threshold.

zulander
12-12-2007, 01:54 PM
This deck already exists, is the best deck in the format, and is called UG Threshold.
It isn't the best deck, but it's up there. Thanks for being constructive to this post though, I'm sure he enjoyed your post.

On topic, I think I'd use ponder over serum visions. Ponder let's you pick which one of the three you want or at least let's you shuffle and try again.

Tacosnape
12-12-2007, 02:03 PM
I personally would cut the opportunity and harmonize for 4 Accumulated Knowledges. but if you crave a big mana spell, Tidings is better than both harmonize and opportunity. Ponder is another option as well. I also can't figure out why you're not running 4 Daze. It's a must for any blue control deck. And if you need more green cards for Allosaurus Rider, Voidslime is always an option.

Basically, just do the opposite of everything he just said.

Accumulated Knowledge is a terrible draw spell. Fact or Fiction's a much better option than Harmonize, Tidings, Opportunity, etc.

Daze should never be in a control deck. Threshold isn't a control deck. It's an aggro-control deck. Threshold can come kill you ASAP and use Daze to keep your methods of stabilization out of business. This deck appears to have a bit slower clock, as it relies on real card advantage rather than a cantrip system, meaning it won't hit its few threats as quickly.

Allosaurus Rider probably isn't a great idea either. Card disadvantage in Control decks is generally bad.

diffy
12-12-2007, 02:31 PM
Win-Conditions-7
Allosaurus Riders-3
Tarmogoyf-4


Allosaurus Riders seem really janky... if you want to play something flashy, try Garruck Wildspeaker (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/213.html). He generates mana early on when you need it an later in the game he either makes chupblockers or something to win with.
Jace Beleren (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/71.html) could also be nice as a one off as he's a constant card advantage engine and a wincondition all in one. Planeswalkers are generally hard to kill which makes them even better for control decks (you don't have to invest resources to keep them alive).

-3 Allosaurus Riders
+2 Garruck Wildspeaker
+1 Jace Beleren



Lands-22
Windswept Heaths-3
Flooded Strands-3
Tropical Islands-4
Islands-7
Forests-5


I think that 22 lands is too low, especially for a control deck like this one. I'd up the Island count, play more fetches (nice synergy with Brainstorm, added color stability) and play some fancy lands like Treetop Village or Mishra's Factory which have added synergy with Garruck.
Here's how I'd play the manabase:

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswepth Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool (http://magiccards.info/di/en/172.html)
1 Forest
5 Island
4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/jr/en/25.html)
1 Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)



Draw-4
Opportunitys-2
Harmonizes-2
Cantrips-12
Wall of Blossoms-4
Brainstorms-4
Serum Visions-4


Now Opportunitiy and Harmonize are not really cost-efficient, same with Serum Visions. I'd cut them all and play more stuff like Fact or Fiction (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/61.html) which give you some broken card advantage. The sorcery count for Tarmogoyf shouldn't really be an issue as you are the control deck and don't really mind on which turn you win.

-2 Opportunity
-2 Harmonize
-4 Serum Visions
+3 Fact or Fiction



Counterspells-12
Counterspells-4
Force of Will-4
Mystic Snakes-4


Mystic Snake is cool in slower envrionments as it brings a chump-blocker to acompany your Counter, but its pretty crappy in such a fast environment like Legacy. I'd replace them with some more cost efficient counterspell like Rune Snag (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/46.html)

-4 Mystic Snake
+4 Rune Snag



Mass Removal-3
Nevenyrral's Disk-3


You really need more removal as you can't rely on countering every single threat.
I personally really like Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html), but you could also play a split between them and Vedalken Shackles (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/164.html) which are permanent removal and a wincondition.

+2 Engineered Explosives
+2 Vedalken Shackles

If you want to try out something fancy, you could play this deck in a Intuition toolbox style with Life from the Loam (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/172.html), Cycling lands (Lonely Sandbar (http://magiccards.info/on/en/320.html), Cephalid Coliseum (http://magiccards.info/od/en/317.html)) and utility lands (Academy Ruins, Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html), The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/252.html), Tolaria West (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/173.html), Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/mprp/en/1.html)). This would make the deck slower but also more powerfull if you get your engine going.

kirdape3
12-12-2007, 07:40 PM
You know, why would I play a deck like this when I can already play a proven deck that uses many of the same cards and occupies a role in the metagame like the deck I advocated does? Especially one with such questionable choices as Allosaurus Rider and Mystic Snake? This is Legacy. 4 mana counterspells simply aren't good enough.

And besides, *shrug* if I care whether he likes what I post or not.

In reality though, there's not that much actually separating this deck from BEING Threshold already. Here's what you'd have to change for a more representative U/G Threshold list:

-4 Wall of Blossoms
-4 Mystic Snake
-4 Counterspell
-3 Allosaurus Rider
-3 Nevinyrral's Disk
-2 Opportunity
-2 Harmonize
(change some lands, but subtract 4 and add a set of Wastelands)

+4 Nimble Mongoose
+4 Werebear
+4 Daze
+4 Ponder
+4 Spell Snare
+4 Stifle
+1 Rushing River
+1 Snapback

In almost every case, all I did was take out a worse card and add in a better one. This is Legacy. Opportunity, Harmonize, Mystic Snake, and Allosaurus Rider are garbage, you don't have to play Counterspell if you really don't want to, and only Wall of Blossoms and Disk are actually playable cards that probably don't belong. Instead I add efficient creatures, better countermagic (yes, Daze and Spell Snare are better than Counterspell and Mystic Snake), and more actually playable cards in Legacy.

I'm still not certain why this shouldn't be done.

diffy
12-13-2007, 09:45 AM
I'm still not certain why this shouldn't be done.


Because, well, he sounds like a casual player. I know this is pretty out of place on these boards but we do have other similar threads so instead of randomly bashing stuff you could give construcitve criticism to a person that is likely to not be as knowledgeable of the Legacy format or as competative minded as you are and explain why stuff like Alosaurus Riders and Mystic Snake are generally bad and give reasons why to play other stuff over his choices.

Speaking of casual:


This is the only competive deck I've played against [...]
The only other deck was a five color 80 card sliver deck.

StarHawk
12-13-2007, 01:02 PM
Because, well, he sounds like a casual player. I know this is pretty out of place on these boards but we do have other similar threads so instead of randomly bashing stuff you could give construcitve criticism to a person that is likely to not be as knowledgeable of the Legacy format or as competative minded as you are and explain why stuff like Alosaurus Riders and Mystic Snake are generally bad and give reasons why to play other stuff over his choices.

Speaking of casual:


I'm not really that good of a player and I've been out of competive magic for about 3 years (When I moved from Northern Virginia). Alot of the cards from after kamigawa block I don't know. Plus when I was playing in Va I mostly played a janky rifter deck. I've never really been control player (except rifter), My favorite decks were generally rifter, goblins, burn, and affinity in that order.
But this deck seemed cool to build for play against some of my friends. If I went to a tournement I would play Vial Goblins.

psionicblast88
12-13-2007, 02:30 PM
Would Remand be a choice? Early game its like a Timewalk and a cantrip, lategame though its really just a Cantrip, I dunno just thought I would throw that out there, probably a bad idea though.

outsideangel
12-13-2007, 03:27 PM
Daze is probably going to be awful in this, a control deck. You don't want to be losing land drops, and late game, where the control deck is supposed to shine, Daze is crap.

JRR
12-13-2007, 04:09 PM
If landstill doesn't run Daze, this deck isn't going to want to either. I guess a good question is, do you want this deck to be as competitive as possible or as fun as possible? I have a UR Tron deck thats nice and solid but by no means is it legacy competitive even if it does used the legacy banned list.

snoopYah
12-14-2007, 08:59 AM
Would Remand be a choice? Early game its like a Timewalk and a cantrip, lategame though its really just a Cantrip, I dunno just thought I would throw that out there, probably a bad idea though.

Actually, Time Walk is a cantrip.