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Blade
12-11-2007, 09:16 AM
I'm new to the forums so sorry if this is posted wrong.

Prelude

I've been playing Magic since Ice Age and I love legacy. While playing several legacy games I've come to recognize a lot of the top teir decks. I've analyzed these decks for some common theme and a way to use this as a weakness against the deck and I've found 2 things that these decks keep using: graveyard and creatures. Originally I wanted a way to hose thresh so I half-assed made this deck, but then I realized it had much more potential. Now I'm able to neuter thresh, aggro, reanimator (including ichroid/narco), most storm, and Stax. Without further ado, here's the decklist:

Lands

5 Island
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Duals (I personally have 4 Underground Seas)

Enchantments

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Planar Void
4 Web of Inertia
3 Compulsion
4 Gravestorm

Instants/Sorceries

4 Mana Leak
2 Brainstorm
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Thoughtseize

Creatures

2 Morphling
4 Withered Wretch

---

The deck is basically a fish deck that abuses the Voids to kill graveyards. This automatically guts several decks in the format, but it also uses Web of Inertia to stop aggro cold. Gravestorm gains card advantage while Compulsion gets rid of any excess cards to dig for what you need. Vaults serve as tutors for almost anything and brainstorm is just sexy. Wretch serves the dual purpose of killing off any cards that may be left behind and dealing with nimble mongoose or any other 1x beater until web arrives. Overall its very synergistic.

My best matchups are, of course, thresh, any GY reccursion, and goblins/WW.

Storm is in the middle. Any deck that uses Ill Gotten Gains is dead, but TES, SI and belcher are pretty tough. The way this deck fairs against them completely depends on card draws.

My worst matchups are Sligh and MUC. I have 4 Chills and 4 Defense Grids in SB to deal with that, but its still not easy. To be perfectly honest, I probably have a 30-70 record to either of these decks.

While it rolls over to any non-graveyard, non-creature based strategy, how many decks can honestly say their best matchups are thresh, narcobridge and goblins? Overall, its a metagame call.

I know I'm going to take some crap for not using certain cards (FoW), but allow me to preempt those:

Force of Will: I have 15 U cards in the deck. 4 are webs, 2 are morphlings and the rest are diggers. I could see pitching a Compulsion to force, but a web? I think Mana Leak does the trick without too many drawbacks.

Serum Powder: While it would be nice to have a Leyline every opening hand, it requires you to remove your entire hand from the game. I only have 2 Morphlings (i.e. Wincons) and 4 Webs, neither of which I am keen on pitching.

More Brainstorms: While its a great card, I simply don't have the room. Vault is a card you either love or hate. I personally believe its one of the greatest legal tutors in the format, and digs deeper than brainstorm ever will.

Any thoughts/suggestions are appreciated.

zulander
12-11-2007, 09:45 AM
I don't know about you but it looks like your goblins/standstill/survival matchup's are really really bad. I honestly don't believe you when you say you have a favorable matchup against goblins.

Media314r8
12-11-2007, 09:55 AM
I believe that he's saying that IF he begins with a leyline or a planar void AND drops an inertia web, goblins can't win, as they pack no MB enchantment removal. (although he seems to forget about SCG, who can win the game without attacking.

Also, can we see a SB? something to keep your important enchantments from being Gripped? That or some more counters/transformation to Ub Control?

Slay
12-11-2007, 09:57 AM
Gravestorm is strictly worse than Phyrexian Arena. Both are terrible as draw engines. Consider something else.

Your deck seems very combo reliant, but not fast enough to get those combos down. Do you have time to get your lock set up before your opponent sets up their gameplan and wins? What do you do when your Web of Inertia is countered or killed or discarded? You don't actually have any threats, so your opponent can set up their gameplan for however long it takes them to find a removal spell for the Web, and then kill it. The fact that you have mana leaks(why are you playing a soft counter in a deck that can only win in the late game?) doesn't help you at all.

I personally don't see how you can win against any aggro-control deck without resolving a Web of Inertia and some graveyard hate, the latter seems easy enough but the former seems impossible, especially since they can find their counters well before you can find your Webs.

What do you do against aggro if you don't get a Web in your opener? Do you mull into it or pray you find one before it's too late?
-Slay

Blade
12-11-2007, 10:14 AM
The main problem that I see with this is that you seem to think this is a combo deck. This is a fish deck. 23 cards are lands, 12 are GY hate, 12 are search/draw, 11 are disruption and 6 act as wincons (withered wretch serving a dual purpose).

Wretch can handle any 1/X creature (including mongoose, goyf and lacky), and with all the searchers, I usually don't have to wait long for a Web. I'll agree that I usually take a good amount of damage before getting this online, but I'll almost always pull through. Gravestorm is a FREE card every turn. No drawback like bob or arena. How is that bad? Thoughtseize before a Web works, and if I know they are only running Daze, keep a land open.

As far as a SB goes:

2 Chill
4 Counterspell
4 Defense Grid
3 Echoing Truth
2 Arcane Laboratory

zulander
12-11-2007, 10:18 AM
This isn't a fish deck. Fish decks play cheap cheap creatures that have some utility while your disruption locks the opponent out. How the hell do you count morphling as a fish creature? And what happens when they actually thoughtseize your morphlings and kill your wretchs?

Lemuria
12-11-2007, 10:45 AM
I would replace Gravestorm for Dark Confidant, for a better draw engine. Also, counterspell is better then Mana Leak, if you want an efficient counter besides FoW. Even though I would consider FoW, it can save your life many many many times (I'm feeling dumb actually to say something everyone knows, but I just have to). Just consider a first turn Lackey, dark ritual, Aether Vial.......

Blade
12-11-2007, 11:13 AM
I would replace Gravestorm for Dark Confidant, for a better draw engine. Also, counterspell is better then Mana Leak, if you want an efficient counter besides FoW. Even though I would consider FoW, it can save your life many many many times (I'm feeling dumb actually to say something everyone knows, but I just have to). Just consider a first turn Lackey, dark ritual, Aether Vial.......

Could you explain why you would choose Bob? Gravestorm is 1 more mana for an enchantment (harder to kill) that gives you the same thing as Bob with absolutely no drawback. Even if you somehow miss your turn 1-3 voids, its a GY tax which in this deck is good.

Slay
12-11-2007, 11:40 AM
Wretch can handle any 1/X creature (including mongoose, goyf and lacky),

Did you really just write this sentence?
-Slay

ClearSkies
12-11-2007, 11:40 AM
Could you explain why you would choose Bob? Gravestorm is 1 more mana for an enchantment (harder to kill) that gives you the same thing as Bob with absolutely no drawback. Even if you somehow miss your turn 1-3 voids, its a GY tax which in this deck is good.

Gravestorm is BBB. Bob is 1B. Bob comes down one turn faster, and can put your opponents in some kind of clock while Gravestorm doesn't. Gravestorm without Leyline gives opponents a choice to let you draw or not. Opponents don't really have much of a choice as long as Bob is in play.

Lemuria
12-11-2007, 11:56 AM
Could you explain why you would choose Bob? Gravestorm is 1 more mana for an enchantment (harder to kill) that gives you the same thing as Bob with absolutely no drawback. Even if you somehow miss your turn 1-3 voids, its a GY tax which in this deck is good.


Because it can hit the table a turn earlier, :1::b: is a way easier to get then :b::b::b:, and it can beat for 2, or at worse, block something big. Actually, the main reason for almost every deck to splash black, it's because of Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize.

Cavius The Great
12-11-2007, 11:58 AM
Because it can hit the table a turn earlier, :1::b: it's a way easier to get then :b::b::b:, and it can beat for 2, or at worse, block something big. Actually, the main reason for almost every deck to splash black, it's because of Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize.

I agree, Gravestorm is bad. Cute but bad. Plus if you run Bob you'll able to draw removal spells to him and might even save a Wretch or two.

Lemuria
12-11-2007, 12:04 PM
Did you really just write this sentence?
-Slay


Actually, I think he meant Morphling.

monkeyfeelers
12-11-2007, 12:08 PM
Seems to me this deck is way to reliant on getting a neat set up with a void and web to beat aggro. I'm fairly sure that turn three web(at best) is still alot like loosing. Goblins and sligh have already got some beats in and have finishers(burn SGC) that your deck does not interact with. I see similar problems with all of your other MU's. Your deck does not have a threat, it has a sort of sudo lock down and then, you know, sometime.. Morphling comes down and does his thing. Your lock seems to weak to win games and your clock is to slow for lock to be disruptive until you win. I can't think of many decks that aren't winning before your lock comes online or can't just sit around and kill you at leisure. Aside from ichorid/bridge type decks I think all your combo MU's are unwinnable, even ill-gotten-gains decks can just sit around and win with mana+tutor chain. Every aggro/control deck has answers to your threats that are more efficient that your protection.
This just seems like a hate deck, and decks without their own strong game plan just loose to those that do.

Blade
12-11-2007, 12:09 PM
I see how bob could be better, but a) the deck is made for me to be able to take some damage to get rolling and b) my average casting cost is around 3. I can't afford an average of 3 damage per turn. I'll try Bob, but I don't expect much. Any actual suggestions rather than "this sux?"

Cavius The Great
12-11-2007, 12:23 PM
I see how bob could be better, but a) the deck is made for me to be able to take some damage to get rolling and b) my average casting cost is around 3. I can't afford an average of 3 damage per turn. I'll try Bob, but I don't expect much. Any actual suggestions rather than "this sux?"

Nobody ever said this deck sucks. It needs work but it doesn't suck. You also might want to consider adding more creature kill. You need a way to deal with Lackey. Maybe Innocent Blood or Funeral Charm might help. I would suggest Darkblast but it seems you can't really rely on your GY with this type of deck. Smother and Diabolic Edict are also some solid options.

Nihil Credo
12-11-2007, 12:57 PM
Nobody ever said this deck sucks.

Until now.

You're playing a bunch of 2-card combos, none of which win the game and only one of which stops the opponent from winning (assuming he doesn't play... burn, Siege-Gang Commander, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, bounce, or Vindicate. In Game 1. In Game 2 you lose to Krosan Grips.) Supporting that you have exactly eight interactive spells, one of which can't stop topdecks and the other becomes dead in the late game, so it's not like you can even rely on those combos resolving.

Compare that to, say, StifleNaught. It plays more digging and protection, and when it resolves its two-card combo the opponent has two turns to resolve a removal spell or lose the game. *That* is a plan that doesn't suck.

adrieng
12-11-2007, 01:23 PM
I thought thunder bluff was not allowed in the development decks....(just joking).
No really i take any T2 deck from the worlds and i think you shouldn t win one game out of twenty....
Your deck is just you have no graveyard and then what ????
You can t beat combo (turn one ETW owns you)
aluren beats your deck then i think breakfast with 7 tutors for harmonic slivers can also beats you.
Any stax (tomb decks like) beats your deck.
Survival doesn t need squee at all to beat your deck.
Fish decks like packs jitte.
Suicide decks like packs often pernicious deed and lots of creatures.
Goblin decks i dont really see how they can lose .
Slivers not really need to say .
Standsill with 4 pernicious deed....
So you should beat maybe threshold and i don t stil think you have more than a 60 percent matchup against them(krosan grip in side sometimes EE explosives maindecks)
and of course your best matchup i think ICHORID COMBO.
It is hard to understand it by yourself but when you ll understand it by yourself i think you ll have improved at magics.

Blade
12-11-2007, 06:49 PM
Ok, this isn't a fish deck, this is a deck specifically designed for graveyard/attack hate. However, most decks use either one, the other, or both.

Does anyone care to make specific changes (take out this for that) rather than just bash? Just saying that this'll never win (when it does, I'll post records soon) doesn't help at all. "If you can't say anything nice..."

I'm playtesting Bob right now and I'll let you know how it goes. More creature hate? Like what? And what do I replace?

Cait_Sith
12-11-2007, 07:57 PM
The problem with this deck comes mainly from its fundamental design. If you are using a deck designed to combine disruptive elements, you need to make sure that the individual elements are all capable of disrupting the opponent on their own.

I run a deck based off a similar idea that uses The Abyss, Tainted AEther, and Ghostly Prison. Any one of those cards is capable of disrupting my opponent and slowing him down, but combined their effects can increase substantially. The problem with your deck is that each piece does nothing to injure the "average" opponent on its own. The only decks you can hope to beat reliably are those that depend on the graveyard (Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast) and of those two, Breakfast has TWO backup plans (bounce and Goyf beat down) along with counterspell defense. Right now, you have a deck with a good Ichorid MU and nothing else.

The problem is, to fix this, you need to redesign the suite of cards you are using. Nothing else will do.

thefreakaccident
12-11-2007, 08:03 PM
I guess I will be the first to say this... looks interesting?

Anyways, the main problem is that thgis deck is too slow and is using outdated teck from long ago.

Either:

a.) speed the deck along and add additional destruction

b.) make it slower (focus more on board control with damnations and the such)...

That way you will be able to either beat creatures all together or try for the combo and control MUs... it's your call.

Blade
12-11-2007, 08:56 PM
Can anyone give me suggestions as to what cards would be better suited for this deck?

Rood
12-12-2007, 03:40 AM
I almost want to say take this deck in another direction, something like mono black with MD GY hate could be something rogue for a meta consisting of Threshold, Ichorid etc. Mixing blue in here with Leyline and Planar Void just seems undeeded due to the fact is weakens your kill spells and clock <.<

outsideangel
12-12-2007, 05:17 AM
Not enough decks rely on the graveyard to make a deck based on graveyard hate a good idea. Belcher, Goblins, and Landstill don't care about Leyline of the Void, and Survival can function without it.

Maybe if all you see is thresh then you could start packing some MD (though I'd go with yard hate that also does other things, like beat it, so it's not completely useless more than half the time) but to base a whole deck around it? If you just really want to beat thresh, play Ichorid.