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totti
12-11-2007, 12:22 PM
I am trying to revive the Junk Pile deck that appeared on this forum some time ago. This is basically a Faerie stompy approach with 5 color lands to allow a more flexible SB options, as well as Erhnam / Shriekmaw in the maindeck. The below is the current list I am proposing:

4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Erhnam Djinn
3 Mulldrifter
3 Shriekmaw

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa’s Jitte


4 Mox Diamond

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Saprazzan Skerry

Proposed SB:

4 Cranial Extraction
3 Fire Imp
3 Indrik Stomphowler
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
1 Shriekmaw


Some of the card choices:

Sea Drake & Serendib Efreet: the cornerstone of the deck, udercosted fliers. Not too much to explain.

Erhnam Djinn: a favorite creature of mine ever since the ancient Erhnam-geddon deck from the nineties. I don’t run goyf bcs: a) want to make Counterbalance to do nothing (basically) against this deck b) Djinn is so much cooler:smile: . Note that his drawback does nothing here.

Shriekmaw: this used to be FTK but with Goyf being everywhere I need a reliable way of killing him. I do miss the FTK’s 1 extra power though.

Trinisphere & Chalice: the obvious disruption package, I am considering dropping some of the spheres to the SB.

Equipment: I am still not sure if the 3/2 split is the correct one, as the +2/+2 of SOFI proves valuable quite often.

Manabase: DON’T LOOK AT IT!!:confused: This is the clear weakness of the deck, not playing any basics at all. I am trying to to offset some of the wasteland threat by playing 25 lands. Tendo / City / Gemstone config seems to be quite ok though.

Cards that are under consideration both for MD and SB:

Stonewood Invocation
Masticore
Razormane Masticore
Phyrexian Negator
Viridian Shaman / Uktabi Orangutan
Psionic Blast / Char
Slaughter Pact
Deadwood Treefolk
Thorn of Amethyst
Engineered Plague
Nantuko Vigilante
Flametongue Kavu
Loaming Shaman
Isao, Enlightened Bushi
Soltari Champion
Thundering Wurm

Do you think this deck might be viable in the current legacy?
All your comments / suggestions / critisism is welcome.
------------------------------
edit:

-3 Thirst for Knowledge
+3 Mulldrifter

-2 Tendo Ice Bridge
+1 City of Brass
+1 Saprazzan Skerry

-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Cavius The Great
12-11-2007, 12:29 PM
Call me crazy, but I like Nekrataal better than Sheikmaw in this type of deck. (1) It stays in play (2) It can two for one your opponent, first strike blocking is the shit and (3) First strike is really good with equipment.

I personally try to fit Nekrataal in all my black stompy builds. And if you don't like the double black, you could always resort to Bone Shredder.

Nihil Credo
12-11-2007, 12:38 PM
Why not take a page from new FS lists and run Mulldrifter instead of TFK? You, too, need the extra threats.

Also, Ernham Djinn looks funny, considering the existence of a certain card of the same size for 1G. The fact that you'll sometimes play Chalice@2 isn't even remotely close to compensating.

@Cavius: Yes, you are crazy. Double colour requirements are murder in this deck. Bone Shredder looks better, but still:

Shredder: 2B for a Terror, 2B + 2B for a Terror and a 1/1 flier
Shriekmaw: 1B for a Terror, 4B for a 3/2 fear

I'd say Shriekmaw is the superior creature.

diffy
12-11-2007, 12:40 PM
Yey, Junk Pile, gogogo. Back in the days I found this deck amazing and playd it quite a lot for fun.

Here's some of the stuff I found while playing the older versions (keep that in mind):

- I found the deck always to be ridiculously mana hungry, not only colored mana. I felt the need for more 2mana lands and as you can't add more colorless sources (eg. Crystal Vein) I tried the depleption lands and they were really good providing a solid mana boost, colored mana and having synergy with Sea Drake.

- The mana base of your version looks quite shacky. I'd cut down on those Tendo Ice Bridges as they never where really good in testing because you actually need the colored mana. I'd go with more City of Brass and Gemstone Mines/depletion lands all day long.
This is how I'd play the mana base:

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
-> The non-negotiables

4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Saprazzan Skerry (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/328.html)

- The sideboard looks all over the place. You don't need Fire Imp anymore as Goblins are pratically out of the metagame, Cranial Extraction was never that good (required 2 pieces of acceleration) and is even worse now with faster combo. Geddon and Ravages are must plays though.
This is how I'd play that sideboard:

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
1 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
2 Indrik Stomphowler
3 Slaughter Pact (Magus of the Moon)

Now the only question remaining should be 'why play this over Dragon Stompy'. It doesn't seem that this deck has any advantages, a worse mana base and no access to Magus of the Win. It's a cool pile nevertheless.



Why not take a page from new FS lists and run Mulldrifter instead of TFK?


Agreed.



Nekrataal, Bone Shredder


Nah, double colored mana is quite difficult to obtain and Shriekmaw is only one more mana for one more power and evasion (which you'd always take over first strike with equipment).
Bone Shredder just is too underpowered for this deck.

Illissius
12-11-2007, 12:54 PM
There's no way that Erhnam is one of the best creatures to run when you have every color available. No fucking way.

Dib and Drake are obvious; beyond those... Goyf, Negator, Bob, Gathan Raiders, Hunted Wumpus, Trinket, Cloud, Shriekmaw, Call of the Herd seem like the best candidates for the remaining slots.

Armageddon and Nether Void are worth looking into as game sealers. If you can somehow support double colored costs, Garruk and Cataclysm are strong.

I'd max out on Cities and Mines before Ice Bridges, and maybe Ice Bridges before Ports, possibly add an Undiscovered Paradise or two as well.

n00bas4urus_r3x
12-11-2007, 12:54 PM
Try out Gathan Raiders. I've been wanting to revive this deck for a while, but my teammate who came up with it, Goblin Snowman, has little faith. 'Goyf pretty much wreaks this deck.

diffy
12-11-2007, 01:13 PM
Ernham, Tarmogoyf...


The problem is that you want to be the agressor early on and have no real way to pump your Goyf so that it will be a 2/3 or something in the early game which really isn't that impressive.



Goyf, Negator, Bob, Gathan Raiders, Hunted Wumpus, Trinket, Cloud, Shriekmaw, Call of the Herd...


As far as I remember, Call of the Herd was in the originial deck (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5073) and should still be okay.
Tacosnape also talked about playing a singleton Phyrexian Negator for more broken openings and I kind of agree with him. The list in the opening post is playing too few creatures anyways for me liking. Card draw has never been that good in this deck (giving up tempo and such).
Maybe a singleton Phyrexian Negator could replace an Erhnam Djin.

-1 Erhnam Djin
+1 Phyrexian Negator

I think I'd cut those Thirst for Knowledge for 3 Call of the Herd as they create some sort of card advantage too and make for more nice t1-t2 openings. Hell, you could actually just cut down on the Erhnam Dijins even more and concentrate on those 3 mana openings (4 mana is rare before turn3).

-1 Erhnamn Djin
-3 Thirst for Knowledge
+4 Call of the Herd

With those changes, I'd definetely switch the numbers of SoFI and Jitte as +2+2 on a Call creates an actual threat whereas a Jitte will only give the opponent a chance to trade for it with a blocker on the first attack.
Now the original deck ran 2 Sword of Light and Shadow which might look janky but could be quite nice in this version as they recurr Shriekmaw. I don't know what to cut right now though.
Maybe a 2/2/1 split could work.



City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Tendo Ice Bridge, Rishadan Port...


I'd definetely keep the ports as they make up for slower starts by keeping your opponent low on mana too and are better when you drew that 2mana land because they are permanent mana sources coupled with permanent disruption. If all I'd cut the Wastelands which are really only good when you have a beater on the table and want to keep your opponent of Wrath/Deed mana or something.
I actually really like the depletion lands over something else when I drew them because the cip tapped doesn't hurt on t1 as you need 3 mana to do broken stuff (hence a 1 mana land would have wasted the turn too) and because the boost is actually really significant.

totti
12-11-2007, 01:20 PM
Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

I will try the Mulldrifter in the TFK spot, but I am not entirely sold on this. I like the fact that Thirst digs 1 card deeper.

I definitely do NOT agree on the Nekrataal / shredder suggestion, both of them are inferior to maw in this deck, be it casting cost or P/T.

I am not sure about Gathan Riders, as without hellbent they are quite mediocre, and getting hellbent is not easy (and also not the goal) as in Dragon Stompy.

I will try the S. Skerry, though I am not sure if that will leave me with enough 5C sources.

totti
12-11-2007, 01:33 PM
The problem is that you want to be the agressor early on and have no real way to pump your Goyf so that it will be a 2/3 or something in the early game which really isn't that impressive..

Agreed. I really want to keep the deck Tarmo-less:smile:



The list in the opening post is playing too few creatures anyways for me liking.

I agree with that, I used to run a bit more creatures, that got eventually cut for the Thirsts. I find them useful in the 'lategame', when you need to draw into a threat. This might be just an illusion though.



-3 Thirst for Knowledge
+3 Call of the Herd


I would still like to try Mulldrifters in the TFK slot to give the deck some card advantage (as will COTH).



With those changes, I'd definetely switch the numbers of SoFI and Jitte as +2+2 on a Call creates an actual threat whereas a Jitte will only give the opponent a chance to trade for it with a blocker on the first attack.
Now the original deck ran 2 Sword of Light and Shadow which might look janky but could be quite nice in this version as they recurr Shriekmaw. I don't know what to cut right now though.
Maybe a 2/2/1 split could work.


This seems to me a bit random with no search, but I agree an the numbers switch in favor of sword.

Top Deck
12-13-2007, 03:24 AM
Call me crazy, but why not run Tarmogoyf over Erhnam?

totti
12-13-2007, 04:45 AM
Call me crazy, but why not run Tarmogoyf over Erhnam?

there is really almost no way to pump goyf in this deck, he can be very unimpressive in the early game. Also, he clashes with Chalice, gets countered by Counterbalance and cannot be powered out by 2 mana lands.

This is the build I am currently trying, I want to squeeze in the Herds to up the creature count a bit, probably instead of a SOFI and / or some Shriekmaws. Jitte's were dropped to the sideboard. I am also interrested in trying Oblivion Ring (MD or SB) in the deck, what do you guys think?

4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Mulldrifter
4 Shriekmaw

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Mox Diamond
2 Prismatic Lens <--took this suggestion from Taco's post in the old forum, will try it out as I play geddon in SB (might even move some to MD), and the color fixing should be very nice in theory

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Cavius The Great
12-13-2007, 11:12 AM
Wouldn't Coldsteel Heart or Coalition Relic be better than Prismatic Lens? Plus Prismatic Lens does nothing with Geddon.

totti
12-13-2007, 11:45 AM
Wouldn't Coldsteel Heart or Coalition Relic be better than Prismatic Lens? Plus Prismatic Lens does nothing with Geddon.

Well, it gives mana after Geddon..right??

I don't see Coldsteel H. being better then Lens in this deck with so diverse colored requirements (well, not in fact, blue will be selected most of the time, but that really seems restrictive to me), plus comes into play tapped. Lens at least can provide mana of any color if you really need it.
Coalition Relic is 3CC, the most crowded slot in the deck already, I don't see any possibilities here either.

I will try the SOLS with the evoke guys and see if that really does something or if it's just a cute combo. In case of the latter, I will return the Jittes to the MD.
I think that Oblivion Ring might be great in the MD as so little decks pack MD enchantment removal, it could act as a better Vindicate. They can always be sided out for sideboarded games if you expect Grips etc. Problem is finding space in the deck for them.

zulander
12-13-2007, 11:48 AM
I'd suggest -4 Djinn for +4 Negators or +4 FtK. I like the negator better because then you can make your manabase u/b thus allowing you to run duals and a couple basics so you don't loose to blood moon/magus of the moon. I don't see how this deck is better than the b/r splash of faerie stompy.

Citrus-God
12-13-2007, 12:42 PM
Try out Gathan Raiders. I've been wanting to revive this deck for a while, but my teammate who came up with it, Goblin Snowman, has little faith. 'Goyf pretty much wreaks this deck.

You know he only said this because he doesnt run Goyfs. It's symmetrical; Goyf is still good if it's a 2/3-3.4.

Cavius The Great
12-13-2007, 12:45 PM
Well, it gives mana after Geddon..right??

You need to pay 1 to activate Lens. Therefore it doesn't provide mana it just "fixes" it.

diffy
12-13-2007, 12:47 PM
You need to pay 1 to activate Lens. Therefore it doesn't provide mana it just "fixes" it.


Dude, magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/) for the win...

Prismatic Lens
Artifact, 2 (2)
{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool.
{1},{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

It's not the greatest to only be left with colorless mana, but still better than having nothing.

Cavius The Great
12-13-2007, 12:49 PM
Dude, Magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/) for the win...

Prismatic Lens
Artifact, 2 (2)
{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool.
{1},{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

It's not the greatest to only be left with colorless mana, but still better than having nothing.

I realize it adds colorless mana. But they're better options out there that add colored mana. Even Mindstone is a superior card compared to Lens, if you want to go the colorless mana route.

diffy
12-13-2007, 01:03 PM
Even Mindstone is a superior card compared to Lens, if you want to go the colorless mana route.


If you want, let's compare the stuff... you're basically advocating Coalition Relic/Coldsteel Heart so I'll draw any comparisions to that.

Prismatic Lens
+ comes down on turn1 enabling more broken turn2 actions (4 mana drop)
+ ability to fix colors if needed (you're likely to have a mana heavy hand if this is the case as Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are the 2 main colorless sources)
- doesn't produce colored mana

Coalition Relic
+ produces colored mana
+ can produce 2 mana if needed
- is in the cmc3 slot where you'd rather play a beater
- doesn't come down turn 1 so it doesn't really make you faster

Coldsteel Heart
+ comes down on turn1
+ produces colored mana
- cip tapped
- doesn't fix colors

If Coalition Relic wouldn't be so expensive, I'd actually play it but you always want to play a beater rather than waste a turn doing nothing. Coldsteel Heart isn't what this deck wants either in my opinion because you need multicolored mana and not one of a kind (like play Sea Drake now, Ernham next turn and then a Shriekmaw).
Lens doesn't actually look all that bad... I still wouldn't play it but that's only because I don't like playing more horrible topdecks for such a little positive effect.



This is the build I am currently trying


So basically you're playing Ub Faerie Stompy right now? If you don't play all the multicolor cards, just go with a better mana base and play something like this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=187773&postcount=357).
If not, I really urge you to try Call of the Herd.

This is the build I'd suggest testing:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Mana
4 Rishadan Port (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/324.html)
4 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)
4 Ancient Tomb (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/305.html)
4 City of Traitors (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/143.html)
2 Saprazzan Skerry (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/328.html)
4 City of Brass (http://magiccards.info/an/en/85.html)
3 Gemstone Mine (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/164.html)
4 Mox Diamond (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/132.html)

// Beaters
1 Phyrexian Negator (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/65.html)
4 Sea Drake (http://magiccards.info/po2/en/45.html)
4 Serendib Efreet (http://magiccards.info/an/en/26.html)
4 Call of the Herd (http://magiccards.info/od/en/231.html)
2 Erhnam Djinn (http://magiccards.info/an/en/32.html)
3 Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html)

// Spells
3 Sword of Fire and Ice (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/148.html)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/163.html)
4 Chalice of the Void (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/150.html)
4 Trinisphere (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/154.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
1 Armageddon (http://magiccards.info/po2/en/132.html)
1 Ravages of War (http://magiccards.info/p3k/en/17.html)
3 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
2 Indrik Stomphowler (http://magiccards.info/di/en/86.html)
4 Tormod's Crypt (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/109.html)

Cavius The Great
12-13-2007, 01:09 PM
If you're worried about bad topdecks why not just play Mindstone? it cantrips...

And I don't think mana fixing is all that necessary with 4 Mox Diamond.

diffy
12-13-2007, 01:38 PM
If you're worried about bad topdecks why not just play Mindstone? it cantrips...


/sarcasm
I know that I might not always make myself very clear because, ya know, English isn't my native tongue and stuff but you clearly seem to not want to understand my point.

Here I go once again:

1) The deck needs speed
--> add 2mana lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors)

2) An agressive strategy is always nicely supported by mana denial
--> add Wasteland and Rishadan Port

3) A five color deck is quite color hungry, contradition with 1) and 2)

How to solve this contradiction? Add color fixers. Mox Diamond, check.
Now some people feel that this is not enough. So what's next best?

Let's evaluate some of the possible inclusions (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=187788&postcount=19).

Coldsteel Heart -> nope because of 3)
Coalition Relic -> not so good either because of 1)

Prismatic Lens seems to be the best option because it fullfills both 1) and 3) reasonably well.



And I don't think mana fixing is all that necessary with 4 Mox Diamond.


I also don't think that additional color fixing is necessary but some people here do. Therefore I try to be constructive and figure out which is the best option for the slot.

totti
12-13-2007, 02:05 PM
So basically you're playing Ub Faerie Stompy right now? If you don't play all the multicolor cards, just go with a better mana base and play something like this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=187773&postcount=357).
If not, I really urge you to try Call of the Herd.

That is the thing I am still trying to figure out - if the more versatile threats and superior SB options (LOVE Armageddon) are worth the issues with mana. I must admit that the quoted build looks also tempting.



This is the build I'd suggest testing:



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Mana
4 Rishadan Port (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/324.html)
4 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html)
4 Ancient Tomb (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/305.html)
4 City of Traitors (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/143.html)
2 Saprazzan Skerry (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/328.html)
4 City of Brass (http://magiccards.info/an/en/85.html)
3 Gemstone Mine (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/164.html)
4 Mox Diamond (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/132.html)

// Beaters
1 Phyrexian Negator (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/65.html)
4 Sea Drake (http://magiccards.info/po2/en/45.html)
4 Serendib Efreet (http://magiccards.info/an/en/26.html)
4 Call of the Herd (http://magiccards.info/od/en/231.html)
2 Erhnam Djinn (http://magiccards.info/an/en/32.html)
3 Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html)

// Spells
3 Sword of Fire and Ice (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/148.html)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/163.html)
4 Chalice of the Void (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/150.html)
4 Trinisphere (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/154.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/51.html)
1 Armageddon (http://magiccards.info/po2/en/132.html)
1 Ravages of War (http://magiccards.info/p3k/en/17.html)
3 Slaughter Pact (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/78.html)
2 Indrik Stomphowler (http://magiccards.info/di/en/86.html)
4 Tormod's Crypt (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/109.html)


Ok, I will give it a shot, though I will definitely regret the absence of TFK / Mulldrifter. I will probably try SOLS in place of the Jitte's and maybe a singleton Oblivion Ring instead of the Negator. I really want to try the ring out.
I am not convinced by the plagues in SB, with gobbos declining, I would probably try sth different instead. Even the Fire Imp in the original SB has more versatility (I have almost no belchers in my meta, thus no fear from Warrens, while there still might be some random aggro and deadguy, against which the Imp is solid).
Thanks for the valuable points!!