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adrieng
12-16-2007, 02:57 PM
I am testing a survival deck based on kavu predator.
It is a new idea i think.
The deck doesn t need at all survival of the fittest to work.
I dont see why people are playing welder survival instead of kavu-survival.
You have the biggest creatures of the games your kavus are usually at least 7/7 and often 17/17 *2.A turn two survival with nothing turn one race goblin EASILY (if lackey hasn t connected).
This combo is fast.

So far the testing against tarmo-burn(splach black for dark confidant)
has been positive.Your goal here is to resolved a dreadnought or a kavu predator with skyshroud cutter.

The threshold matchup is also positive (both red and black version)
All you spells must be countered.You play the biggest creatures.

Tomb decks like it depends but you play basics against blood moon.
You have a faster kill.

Against the rock i have usually win (depends of the version so many different version)

Standstill if you resolved a magus you should be fine.Others ways it is hard.
(slightly unfavorable i think)

Now the bad matchup
combo ichorid breakfast TEPS and belcher.

The list:

creatures

4 kavu predator
4 skyshroud cutter
4 tarmogoyf
3 trinket mage
1 squee goblin
3 magus of the moon
4 phyrexian dreadnought

4 survival of the fittest
4 stifle
3 vision charm
3 engineered explosives
4 brainstorm
1 tormod 's crypt

lands
4 forest
3 islands
3 tropical is lands
2 taiga
2 wooded
2 polluted
2 windswepth heath

the sideboard needs more work so far

4 leyline of the void
2 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
3 pyroclasm
3 chalice of the void



At the beginning of my testing i tested a black splash for both dark confidant thoughtseize cabal therapy....
But this happened to be a bad choice cause you weaken your zoo like matchup with dark confidant.And you have to cut the red then the standstill matchup is UNWINNABLE (you are a bye).
I have also tryed to cut the blue but the dreadnought combo is huge in fact.
It improves a lot your goblin matchup and zoo(by randomly having the turn two dreadnought).
Another point is that having dreadnoughts means that you have a lot of targets for their swords or others removals.

bigbear102
12-17-2007, 12:23 AM
Why do you play Vision Charm? Phasing out artifacts, milling, and changing lands seems really bad...

Xurcks
12-17-2007, 12:31 AM
I agree with bigbear102,if you are using the vision charm just for it's interaction with Phyrexian Dreadnought,use Trickbind instead.It's better all around and at the same time would improve your bad matchups against Storm Decks as a uncounterable stifle number 5-7.

adrieng
12-17-2007, 02:19 AM
I don t agree here the vision charm vs trickbind.
A turn two vision charm dreadnought races most aggro decks where as a turn three dreadnought trickbind does nothing.
(most aggro decks have a turn four-five kills a turn two dreadnought followed by a creature are usually enough to make them go for the turn five kills where as you have a turn four kill).
Another point is with a turn two suvival you can have a turn three dreadnought with charm in hand but not with trickbind.The one mana difference is huge.

The vision charm can also does random things like:
nullify a tutor by milling them(vs breakfast)
protecting your dreadnought
change islands of a high tide player into plains

Tao
12-17-2007, 03:10 AM
Splashing Red only for Magus is not good. If you are so worried about your Landstill / control matchup then you could add a Witness, a Top and Genesis for it. These cards are also helpful in control matchups and you won't get colorscrewed by Taigas - or by Magus because it is only ~50/50 that you have an Island before casting Magus.

But if you insist on the R Splash you should go with Anger. 12/12 is good, 12/12 haste is better.

Meekrab
12-17-2007, 06:27 AM
I dont see why people are playing welder survival instead of kavu-survival.
Because Welder Survival can blow up infinity lands or shoot a lot of goblins or weld in Platinum Angel to never die, or a million other things funny looking green creatures can't do, and they don't give your opponent free life in the process. Giving your opponent five life only to have your Kavu trigger Stifled is probably really lame.

Putting aside the obvious flaw in the strategy and the fact that two card combos that don't win the game are a bad idea and considering the decklist...

You should be playing Chrome Mox and Birds of Paradise. Survival is a mana-hungry concept, no reason at all to be feeding it off of only 18 lands.

Magus looks like a sideboard card seeing as half your Islands are non-basic and he shuts off fetches.

I'm also not at all certain Trinket Mage or Phyrexian Dreadnought are any good in a Survival deck, especially since you say your bad matchups are the decks that should be killing you before you get to announce either one.

I would highly recommend either playing more blue and some real counters, or adding black and going the Cabal Therapy Thoughtseize/Duress route. And Anger. And Genesis.

adrieng
12-17-2007, 10:34 AM
I am going to answer:
Meekrab
First why would i play birds and chrome mox which is card disadvantage whereas i want to play only two casting cost cards like kavu.Ask a threshold player if he wants to play chrome mox.These cards does nothing on their own and i dont play cabal therapy to make a good trade with them.The only card which i see could be playable is aether vial but i dont play dark for confidant so i ll not use them.
On the contrary of classic survivals deck this one is not mana hungry i think you havent playtested the deck to say it.
The manabase is fine.
Second point welder survival is very reliant on graveyard which are more and more hated .Most opponents will bring both their needle and their hate grave.
Anger and genesis is a bad idea because i play a 18 decks lands deck and i hate drawing these cards while survival is not resolved.See win more card.
Second point like Tao said playing red for only one card is bad:
false you dont want to resolve a hurly magus of the moon like in dragon stompy it is not your first game plan.
It is a late game plan so beeing screwed with red is not at all a probleme.
It is like in sealed decks when you have a splash for a third colour with expensive cards.
To win combo you need both a fast clock and disruption we ll agree on it.
The dreadnought kill is fast and you are sure here he wont get sworded.
As you can see in my deck the only cards which helps against combo
are
trinket mage for tormod's crypt.(against breakfast ichorid)
3 EE against belcher
4 stifle against belcher .
3 magus of the moon against breakfast.

Tao
12-17-2007, 10:47 AM
Magus is no late game plan. If he is not online early all decks will be able to play around him.

adrieng
12-17-2007, 11:04 AM
Against standstill it is a late game plan .If you resolve it turn ten and you are not dead (and they have no removals in hand) it is game.
Against threshold (white or black) you want to resolve it turn four five.
Against breakfats as soon as possible.
Against slivers also.
What i meant by late game plan is that magus of the moon stops opponents to play spells usually when we are both in topdeck mode.
The first creatures will always be there.
Anyway magus is not at all the first aim of this deck like in dragon stompy.

bigbear102
12-17-2007, 11:19 AM
By the time you are casting Trinket Mage for Crypt, especially without any acceleration, Breakfast will have possibly killed you, and Ichorid will have definitely gotten online and will probably kill you.

This deck definitely wants Chrome Mox. If you are arguing about card disadvantage, then you shouldn't be playing Dreadnaught and Stifle, or Cutter and Kavu. You are playing 2 cards to make 1 work, that is card disadvantage.
You are also essentially playing combo, so going turn 1 Kavu, or turn 1 Dreadnaught Stifle isn't bad. Considering you have 0 protection anyway, the sooner you "go off" the better.

Landstill will almost never be in top deck mode at turn 10, if they are then you won't need magus to kill them.

Why wouldn't you want to cast magus turn 1-3 if you had the option against Threshold? Worried about counters? Darn, you countered Magus so I resolve Survival and win... Magus is a card you want to drop ASAP in almost all matchups so that they don't have the option to float mana to deal with him.

adrieng
12-17-2007, 11:40 AM
VS ichorid and breakfast depends of who is on the play .If you start the trinket->tormod works.
I ll not add chrome mox as i said the option i have considered was vial it speeds your deck a lot and make your creatures unconterable.
Secondly you speak about card disadvantage but against threshold i NEVER want to play a turn two dreadnought really never that s a bad play.
I want to be daze proof and beeing at most FOWED so that it is not card disadavantage same thing for the kavu predator(if you have the skyshroud cutter).Secondly a big advantage of the kavu is that most of the time when you play it they dont know if you have the second part of the combo and they lll fowed it.So it is a good card on his own.
Skyshroud cutter is really good against gob it trades with everything is free.

bigbear102
12-17-2007, 12:06 PM
Turn 1 Nomad, turn 2 Illusionist. If they know you don't have any disruption, this isn't that uncommon. Depending upon what they dredge, Ichorid could have several zombies already in play, and if they have a discard outlet they can come back from your 1 Crypt reasonably quickly.

I'm not saying you shouldn't play vial, but it does not speed up your deck. It actually makes you wait 1 turn longer to play your creatures, rather than 1 turn faster.

Why would you not want to play a turn 2 dreadnaught, WITH daze mana open then? 2 land plus Mox lets you be daze proof on turn 2. Just sayin.

Not having survival in play with Cutter being your only life gain makes Kavu a 2/2 most of the time, and if you have survival in play they probably know you can search for something that will make it bigger.

Cutter blocking goblins is not a very good argument for playing it on its own. There are much better cards you could be playing to beat goblins, especially since it can be killed any number of ways before trading.

adrieng
12-17-2007, 12:48 PM
The first version i played was only blue-green
with something like
-3 EE
-3 magus
+3 counterbalance
+3 sensei
but the standstill matcup is bad if I consider playing only two colours what can I do to improve my standstill matchup??

Tao proposed
eternal witness and genesis ( i haven t tested yet)

maybe back to basics in sb

bigbear102 I know that breakfast can have a turn two kill but on average the kill is turn three.

In fact in this deck the three cards I am the less sure are the EE and the 3 magus of the moon.

So if I leave these six slots what I put in to improve my combo matchup and my standstill matchup??

adrieng
12-24-2007, 09:25 AM
So here what i am testing now. I have cut the dreadnought kill .

8 islands
3 flooded strand
4 wooded foothils
3 forest
3 tropical island

creatures
4 kavu predator
4 tarmogoyf
3 man o war
4 skyshroude cutter
1 squee
1 wonder

4 survival
3 counterbalance
3 sensei
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 brainstorm

Happy Gilmore
12-24-2007, 05:32 PM
So here what i am testing now. I have cut the dreadnought kill .

8 islands
3 flooded strand
4 wooded foothils
3 forest
3 tropical island

creatures
4 kavu predator
4 tarmogoyf
3 man o war
4 skyshroude cutter
1 squee
1 wonder

4 survival
3 counterbalance
3 sensei
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 brainstorm

is there a reason not to splash red for anger? This deck could easily branch out into a UGR Survival deck with a comboish finish attached.

Wobbles The Goose
12-24-2007, 08:56 PM
is there a reason not to splash red for anger? This deck could easily branch out into a UGR Survival deck with a comboish finish attached.

it could just as easily go into UGb Survival Threshold mode too. There is a thread over on the mana drain about such shenanigans: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35083.msg490240;boardseen#new

Why is the Kavu combo strong in the deck? The strenght of the deck is that it has an awesome late game where they are locked by counter balance while flying tarmogoyfs eat them. Kavu on the other hand is much faster (but not fast enough to race say, combo) but ultimately duplicates the big dumb creature role that tarmogoyf does all by himself. 1x Genesis means you always have more tarmogoyfs to find, and that seems like a solid way to win.

You don't need to branch out to a third color (UG thresh has an excellent record on it's own), but other colors are going to give you creatures that do more then just attack. Black has some of the juiciest targets in confidant and shriekmaw, but meddling mage might be interesting.