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thefreakaccident
12-17-2007, 07:42 PM
This is a deck (not mine, mind you) that has been doing very well as of late at my local; it seems to have decent to good game against everyhing except fast combo... here is the list:

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Intuition
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Brainstorm
3x Repeal

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
3x Putrid Imp
2x Oona's Prowler
3x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Garza Zol, Plague Queen
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Symbiotic Wurm

Lands:
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
2x Watery Grave
6x Swamp
1x Island

Sideboard
2x Wipe Away
2x Hydroblast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Defense Grid
3x Propaganda
3x Stifle
1x Repeal

I still do not understand how it is as good as it is, but it is a lot stronger han it appears on paper; trust me, as I used to perform well at my local every week with various decks, and all of them get defeated with ease by this (my decks are landstill (URW primarily, I have tried others against it though!), threshold (all varients), and UG dreadnought).

Sanguine Voyeur
12-17-2007, 07:55 PM
What makes this better then Breakfast?

Breakfast has a two card combo that wins the game immediately with Therapy and Force protection. If Breakfast's combo fails, it can still use Tarmogoyfs to win the game.

thefreakaccident
12-17-2007, 08:03 PM
Because unlike breakfast, a resolved needle doesn't stop the combo... the swords issue also comes up a bit.

This is also tucked into a 2 color manabase safely while breakfast is left open to wastelands... Not saying it isn't a good deck though.

This deck wins because it has inevitability on its' side, as well as resiliance... which is why I (the mass control and aggro-control player) have been having issues with it.

Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 08:07 PM
What makes this better then Breakfast?

Breakfast has a two card combo that wins the game immediately with Therapy and Force protection. If Breakfast's combo fails, it can still use Tarmogoyfs to win the game.

I think the benefits of playing UB Reanimator is the deck doesn't rely on a two card combo. The entire deck is a one card combo, due to redundancy, which is justifiably the greatest reason to play the deck.

I'm also glad to see a deck make use of the Plague Queen. I've always loved that card. :cool:

troopatroop
12-17-2007, 08:10 PM
Because unlike breakfast, a resolved needle doesn't stop the combo... the swords issue also comes up a bit.

This is also tucked into a 2 color manabase safely while breakfast is left open to wastelands... Not saying it isn't a good deck though.

This deck wins because it has inevitability on its' side, as well as resiliance... which is why I (the mass control and aggro-control player) have been having issues with it.

Since when did breakfast lose to a needle? From what I remember, Breakfast has many outs to that card. Now you're going to reference the manabase. Okay. Awesome. So being like... 3 turns slower, More vulnerable to countermagic, and infinitely more vulnerable to combo is better? I almost never have problems with my manabase playing breakfast.

I'm not sold.

Gambit
12-17-2007, 08:18 PM
This deck smashed me in the winterfest finals; I was playing 'geddon stax. It also smashed my friend playing mono blue control earlier in the day. I too was wondering why it was good, reanimator usually isn't consistant enough etc. Also, Tydespout tyrant is a house....

thefreakaccident
12-17-2007, 08:22 PM
I'll admit that this doesn't look all that amazing on paper, as compared to breakfast (which looks a lot better on paper than it does in RL).

Breakfast vs. Reanimator is a different discussion, while Breakfast can be faster, it can also be affected by much more hate, and while Reanimator may be slower it is a lot more resiliant to hate.

It is much like what Cavious just said... redundancy is this deck's greatest strength.

I would suggest that while some may be sceptical (to say the least, I know) that they should still keep an open mind.

Test the deck, I am here to put it out to the world for all to enjoy (or hate, you decide).

Team-Hero
12-17-2007, 10:33 PM
This deck is a house. It doesn't even belong in the New and Developmental forum... it should be bumped to the Established Deck forum. People just don't see how powerful this deck is because they either have not played it or they just don't know how to pilot the deck. Personally, it's not my style of deck but I do have the complete deck list at my disposal. I practice against this deck and, without favortism, I believe this deck is one of the hardest decks to beat right now in the format.

thefreakaccident
12-18-2007, 12:04 AM
It can be argued... but without others willing to playtest against it, it would be hard to push for this to be in the Established section... I have only playtested against this deck in the past (with many sad faces), I have not gone and tested all of its' matches from a reanimator pilot's point of veiw... I wonder how that would turn out for me in the end.

Mister Agent
12-18-2007, 09:04 PM
Well another reason to play this deck is that it has a smashing game against landstill and threshold especially played by a competent player like rodrigo.
The deck deserves recognition though afterall rodrigo actually top 5 with it at the mana leak open 1 on the east coast so obviously it can do well against a number of decks.

diffy
12-19-2007, 03:08 AM
3x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Garza Zol, Plague Queen
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Symbiotic Wurm


I don't understand why people want to reanimate cute creates when they could reanimate stuff that wins the game even if its is sent farming...
Bogardan Hellkite is the right approach as it pings for 5 regardless of what's happening after. More good ideas in this direction are Sundering Titan and Angel of Despair.
I don't like Symbiotic Wurm. If your opponent gets to Wrath, something is going wrong. Sacing it to Therapy might be cute but not more. If you make the effort to reanimate a fattie, you should want to win and not flashback a discard spell with it.
I also don't like Phantom Nishoba. It's nice against aggro but so is any other fattie and against every other deck you'd want to have something with a good cip effect or shroud or similar (that is hard to remove or does something even if it is removed).
Same is true for Garza Zol, Plague Queen and Tidespout Tyrant... both pretty cute but you'll never really want to reanimate them over something else.

This is how I'd play the creature base:
3x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Simic Sky Swallower
3x Sundering Titan
2x Angel of Despair



3x Repeal


What are these for? To bounce a Counterbalance or a Needle?
I can't see how I'd ever want to play these (they're so slow) over more Cabal Therapies (gets rid of threats proactively and is a discard outlet) and the 4th Brainstorm.

I'd replace these 3 with:
1x Brainstorm
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Putrid Imp

rodgon666
12-19-2007, 03:52 AM
let me give some insight on the deck since im the one that created it. :D

ok, first of all... this is not breakfast combo. thats a completely different strategy and should be discussed in its own page. its like comparing Wildfire style decks to Stax... its just not able to be determined which is better.

ok second.

this deck makes aggro decks cry. testing versus goblins is way to favorable to this deck, out of 15 games played ( 5 preboard, 10 after) i lost just 2, due to just natural bad luck. all the others werent even close.

aggro control such as thresh, grow and slivers have a better matchup, but they stil fall short, after some 10 or so games of testing it was about 70-30 in reanimators favour.

control decks in the two-three color realm as shuffle truffle and others of the such are pretty much an automatic bye. also in this realm is affinity and the before mentioned goblins.

this deck is good but it also has some major problems versus decks such as Spanish inquisition, Belcher, and other such decks that kill in turn 1-2 ( given that if they dont kill you then, you tend to put enough pressure to kill before they go off)

but you know what every deck has a bad matchup, you just give up your combo matchup in order to destroy or have an incredible match against the rest of the field. and given that our meta here in SD and in the GE winterfest was mostly aggro and control aggro theres no reason to believe it was just luck for this deck to make a great record and win me the huge tourney.

alot of graveyard hate is hurtfull yet if you pilot the deck well you can get past 2 crypts and extirpates, phyrexian furnaces and such easily. just remember exhume doesnt target until resolved. so if they get rid of your yard before... just dsicard one more fatty after their effect resolves and taaadaaa you have it in play. ( that amongst multiple other plays that most likey will not be visible to a person that doesnt play the deck alot, and thus will think they cant play creatures and give up... lame-o! just be a good player and think a little... thats y most of us play the game right? a challenge... hahaha)


also the fact that people will mulligan alt to get their crypts and such just makes me laugh. mulling to 5 just to get the crypt repealed and seeing you go off is not a good feeling. sucka!

hahaha
----------

Der_imaginäre_Freund:

let me explain the reason i chose these creatures ovr the ones you mentioned in your post.
maybe i can make you see why i did it and persuade the rest of the readers as to how i was able to win with this.

the deck itself isnt just a strategy to reanimate the creature in the yard... nonononono... well yea thats the primary idea and most of your games will be won like this. yet the problem with the reanimator decks i have tried before ( and they have been alot of them... mono black ...green black...red black....) is they might have an amazing initial turns yet if disrupted they lost steam and had no way to kill or deal the last damage at the end.

this is all easily resolved in this deck.

repeal which is probably the weirdest addition to the deck in most peoples heads is actually a small combo in its own with any of the creatures with comes into play abilities and animate dead.

5 more damage...

7 more insect tokens...

say goodbye to all the lands on the board ...oh titan your so nasty....

how about a refreshed nishoba...

or at the worst...

bounce a mainboard crypt, goyf, withered wretch, planar void, meddling mage, counterbalance, hummility...

or hat the heck... bounce an elf! or bird..

oh and it draws you a card...yep... a card...

Cabal therapies are a good card in the deck yet not really as necessary as people might think, the deck is meant to be played as an aggressive deck, if your trying to spend your initial turns maybe, perhaps getting some cards out of your opponents hands then your probably going to loose. first turns are always meant to get your discard outlets active and ready to go. search, draw, do anything thats going to get a fatty in the yard. then let them worry about realizing that no matter what they play theres a fat dude in the yard thats going to hit them. make them play in the defensive, and you will win most your games. you cant counter all the reanimation in the deck and you can search it out fast. you can pull wins out off your ass. i have mostly used therapies to kill my own creatures to be able to reanimate them again. having some disruption late game in the form of intuition for therapies and a reanimation spell with most likely make your opponents face go blank.




When it comes to the creatures:

the deck is pretty straight forward and im sure most people wil be able to tell why i chose the creatures i have in the deck. yea it is a small toolbox approach, nishoba for life, symbiotic for blockers and stax style feed, skyswallower as the trump versus aggro, akroma... well shes obvious, yet you never want to see multiples of her. Garza... well i agree with you on that. it needs to be changed. but it was never supposed to be there in the first place.


the garza...this was always a sub for the 4th dragon and i agree it should be taken out for the 4th Bogardan.

the tidesprout titan is amazing in a deck with so many cheap cantrip like spells. plus the added effect of being able to bounce your animate deads to reanimate a dragon again and again adds a little more to the synergy of te deck. oh and hardcastable if it ever comes down to it.


the same goes for the symbiotic wurm. it buys you time as an almost infy blocker to goyfs when you need more time to search for the kill, and the same nifty trick with the tyrant and repeals. 7 tokens a turn are amazing i hear...

angel of despair used to be in the deck yet it fell short in oh so many ways... the creature was mostly used as a bad vindicate that costs you 7 life and hardly ever wins or does a game altering effect. and sundering titan is good, yet i wouldnt put more than one since you never want to reanimate or bring one into play more than once, ( most of your initial lands will be gone leaving you very vulnerable in the first turns... its a lategame card , its a 2 edge sword.)


i really hope more people play with the deck so i can get more feedback and things to put in the board.

to be truthfull, the only things i ever side are the stifles and the wipeaways. nothing else ever came down or wasnt really needed. propagandas are nice against decks like 40 land.dec and defense grids for scepter chant and such other control decks.

the blue elemental blast and hydroblast were the only for other decks played that day such as thresh with dreadnought fling combo, not for anything else.

conboy31
12-19-2007, 03:58 AM
As mentioned, I think the 4th Bogardan over the Garza would be right.

Also, what about Blazing Archon? Pre board against a deck like Ichorid a 2nd turn Archon = Game over (which I actually ran into today which is why I bring it up).

rodgon666
12-19-2007, 04:22 AM
blazing archon is the nuts against ichorid... yet its not so much a powerhouse and a game ending card that would allow him to be in the main.

i have tried him before and this is mostly what happens:

you end up paying 9 life against aggro to out him in play to loose him to eddict, gempalm incinerator or something of the sorts before it deals any damage or alters the game at all.

if you get him against landstill, or any control or combo, his just a 5/6 with no haste that has no synergy with the rest of the deck to make an impression or give you a chance to race them.

your aggro matchup is amazing, other than ichorid combo ( which is combo more than aggro ) and for that you have propagandas after side board, which wreck the deck more than a crypt.

you can also race them, getting a turn 4 kill is not uncommon, and ive even gotten a turn 3 kill more than a couple of times.

Maveric78f
12-19-2007, 05:16 AM
Why play 19 lands in a 1 and 2 CC decks with 8 cantrips ? Why play basics when you need first turn U and B (if you're afraid of magus you'd better be afraid of chalice actually...). Intuition is bad, it's too late. Repeal is bas it's too late too. Echoing truth is far superior.

Disruption: 7
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
2x Echoing truth

Draw/Dig/Discard 16
4x Careful Study
4x Ideas's Unbound
4x Serum Visions
4x Putrid Imp -> not sure it could not be another draw/discard spell

Reanimation: 12
4x Animate Dead
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume

Creatures: 9
3x Bogardan Hellkite
3x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Sundering Titan
1x Phantom Nishoba

Lands: 16
4x Underground Sea
4x Watery Grave
4x Underground River
2x City of Brass ???
2x Cephalid Coliseum

SB :
Additionnal discard (4-8), fatties (4-8) and bounces (4)

BTW, what about show and tell in SB ?

rodgon666
12-19-2007, 05:52 AM
ok the thing about the list you just mentioned is the fact that your falling into the same stereotypical approach to the deck. yeah its good to reanimate a critter and then blow them away... but if you get disrupted your going to take for ever to come back into the game and by then your dead...

are you seriously considering only 16 lands? you caaaaaaant be serious. yeah the deck does only need 2 mana for the most part, but being able to play multiple spells a turn is essential to the deck being at all resilient. i already have a hard time getting to 4 mana during a game. with 16 lands youll be mulling alot more than you think. you need to see 2 mana turn 2. you have to or your most likely dead.

magus of the moon? hahaha. no im not worried about that. you need basics versus wasteland locks, thats it.

serum visions is horrible in the deck... it does nothing for you. ponder would be better but still not usefull at all.

ideas unbound is another card you dont want to see turn 1,2,3,4,5 or any turn. you dont get to discard automatically which makes it too slow in the late game having to wait a turn to discard and the bring a card back is too long.

echoing truth is not bad... but not mainboard material at all.. it takes an extra turn to bounce a crypt, it doesnt draw you a card to dig for your pieces, and most of the time will be a chain vapors... but expensive...

underground river??? no... unless your playing on a budget.

city of brass... not unless you expect to draw half your lands in the deck to be able to play the creatures... but then that wouldnt be good for you either.

coliseum... ill try it. its not a bad idea, only thing is your main color is black and your not going to be happy drawing this opening hand.

more tydesprout tyrants will be tested from my part, i really like that creature, ill let you know and post the results.

thoughtseize is good... but more cabal therapies would do that and more...and yet they are not neccesary for reason pointed out above in my post.



also by taking out the OOnas prowlers, your taking away the other discard outlet to the deck and an amazing beater. when all fails, you can beat with 2/2 imps and 3/1 flying fearies.



OK....OK...OK....

your completely mistaken about intuition and repeal... oh so mistaken...

ok... you say they are slow... compared to what? buried alive? ideas unbound?

first of all..

it works as a buried alive at instant speed, but not just for creatures, for animation spells, for draw... bounce... you name it. without it the deck is not even a contender, this card is what makes the deck broken. its your tutor. ( yea,,, reanimator has an awesome tutor...i said it... ) ideas unbound will sometimes net you what you need... if you get lucky... and if you have enough cards in hand... and if you dont plan to play anything else that turn... and if you want to be tapped out and be predictable... sometimes... perhaps. oh... and if you have double blue.... yeah... double blue...


repeal:

cheap bounce, more often than not youll play it either early for 1 to bounce a crypt... or for at the most 3 to bounce a counterbalance... meddling age... ( didnt i already mention this...) and it nets you one card. the extra 2x1 is good card advantage... and card advantage wins games. :D

the sideboard cant just be more critters... the problem that has to solved with it has to be the massive graveyard hate and possible bad matchups. which no matter how many more critters you bring in its not going to solve it.

SHOW AND TELL!:

YES!!!!! OMG YES!!!!! y i didnt include it that day was a brainfart mistake. yes that card is amazing in this deck.

oh... you mull to 3 to have 3 leylines in play opening hand?,,, ok.

show and tell..

haha you loose...

hahaha

good times.

TheMightyQuinn
12-19-2007, 05:21 PM
One interaction I find particularly amusing is Tyrant + Cabal Therapy (it works with any pinpoint discard). If there is some annoying permanent on the board, such as Propaganda, name it with Therapy, return it to their hand with Tyrant, and watch it hit the bin.

Nosomo.
12-19-2007, 11:47 PM
This is the only deck in my meta, where I always have a 0% win ratio. Why? It is a great deck and Rodrigo can pull a first turn fatty everytime:smile: sexytech.

rodgon666
12-20-2007, 02:00 AM
well... not turn one with this deck, but thanks . hahahaha

a very high turn two ratio though.

another sideboard card that i might consider is vexing sphinx


uu1
4/4
flying
at the beginning of your upkeep discard a card for each age counter on it.
when it goes to the yard, draw cards equal to the counters on it.

descent beater and draws into your answers after side. also more oonas prowlers, so it turns into an aggro deck with combo finish.

thoughts?

Xurcks
12-20-2007, 03:57 AM
@rodgon666: I was trying a while ago a list that used a suicide black base(4 thougthseizes,therapys,duress,oona's prowler,nantuko shade,hyppie,dark ritual and the like) with a transformational sideboard into reanimator(like 4 animate dead and 4 reanimate alongsides some good critters like SSS and Akroma).
What do you think of this idea?
I will post my list as soon as I find it.

rodgon666
12-20-2007, 04:33 AM
essentially thats what i would like to do with the sideboard, go from reanimator to aggro b/u. i hardly ever sideboard anything against most decks as it has a very good jump on everything, but when hate hits you slow down a bit, so having an aggro kill condition you have even more resilience after the sideboards come in.

this deck has a great game 1 against most decks, then after side if you put in creatures like more oonas prowlers, the sphinx, it gives you a very good chance to live through any type of hate.

ill have to test the deck in this respect.

perhaps after sideboard take out all the creatures minus the dragons and put in more creatures you can cast in the form of prowlers and sphinxes and perhaps confidant ( even though it would be a risk with 4 hellkites, but that why you have intuitions and brainstorms)

the only sideboard card i would leave as a 4 of would be the stifles, its too good to cut from the side.

Wobbles The Goose
12-20-2007, 09:32 AM
also by taking out the OOnas prowlers, your taking away the other discard outlet to the deck and an amazing beater. when all fails, you can beat with 2/2 imps and 3/1 flying fearies.

it works as a buried alive at instant speed, but not just for creatures, for animation spells, for draw... bounce... you name it. without it the deck is not even a contender, this card is what makes the deck broken. its your tutor. ( yea,,, reanimator has an awesome tutor...i said it... ) ideas unbound will sometimes net you what you need... if you get lucky... and if you have enough cards in hand... and if you dont plan to play anything else that turn... and if you want to be tapped out and be predictable... sometimes... perhaps. oh... and if you have double blue.... yeah... double blue...


I'm not sure how much I like the 3/2 split on oona/imps. Imps just always seem better because they let you drop a turn 2 fattie, which is pretty broken. I'd go down to at least 4/1, maybe dropping oona all together for gigapede/undead gladiator. Intuition is /great/ in the deck, but with all the one of reanimation targets, but they are always going to give you the one you need if you don't have a discard guy on the table. With gigapede/undead gladiator you get to make absolutely certain you are going to be able to reanimate the creature you need. Alother card I often find myself wishing was in the deck is a deep analysis. If you do have a imp on the table, being able to search for fattie/fattie/DA is way more likely to help you find the reanimation spells you need to get things going.

rodgon666
12-20-2007, 03:04 PM
most of the time you will nab 3 dragons with the intuitions, and in the case of you needing one of your tutorable creatures, it should be turn 4 at least and you should have spent the first 1-2-3 turns finding a discard outlet, use your cards wisely, and know what to go for.

im sure that you didnt just mean for us to take out the intuitions for gigapede or the gladiator, yea its pin point discard, yet they do nothing to search for what you need. intuition can get anything in the deck you need, these are just subpar discard outlets.

the thing with gigapede and also undead gladiator take even longer than the oonas prwoler to get your discard active and only the undead gladiator would be able to beat for damage, without any evasion. :(

gigapede: the card requires to be discarded in order to be useful... so having it as a discard outlet is pointless since you need a discard outlet for it to become a discard outlet.

Undead gladiator: you would have to wait till turn two to cycle and then pay 1b to bring him back and discard the third turn and then hope to have a reanimate instead of a two mana reanimation spell to even be able to reanimate a creature that same turn. making it slower than oonas and intuition.

Oonas prowler: play him second turn. third turn reanimate/animate dead/exhume + brainstorm or anything else ... a dragon, akroma and beat for 8 or 9. with evasion, and if they discard any creatures to it you can always take them. in a way its a disruption card as well. people dont realize that the deck is not necessarily a turn 3 kill deck, your games can go long, and these help keep it fast and consistent. Also the fact theres only 2 is because of the bad interaction of exhume and this.


and for the deep analysis. what do you suggest to take out for it?

you already have brainstorm, careful study, intuition and repeal as draw and tutors, and adding a card that makes you take damage as since your most likely only going to play it from its flashback position it will only net you two cards. ( i think ponder would be better, yet the deck already has no slots to put it in) also the reason for the draw spells is to find you either creatures or discard outlets, and your never going to be happy to open with one of these and no discard outlets. your going to frown all the way to a mulligan...

Wobbles The Goose
12-20-2007, 05:17 PM
Undead gladiator: you would have to wait till turn two to cycle and then pay 1b to bring him back and discard the third turn and then hope to have a reanimate instead of a two mana reanimation spell to even be able to reanimate a creature that same turn. making it slower than oonas and intuition.

and for the deep analysis. what do you suggest to take out for it?


After play testing some more, I still just don't think the oona's prowler's are worth it when compaired to a configuration of 4x putrid imp, 1x Undead Gladiator. Most of this is the fact that my experience with the control/thresh matchup tends to get really messy if they force of will one of the 9 early game discard spells. Without an discard outlet ~22 cards in the deck are virtually blank (reanimation and big creatures). And while I dig with brainstorm, tarmogoyf eats me alive. The trick is that you are A) Virtually never going to hard cast gladiator and B) All you need to do is resolve one intuition to search for gladiator +2 creatures to make sure you never lack a worth-while reanimation target.

While certainly slower then oona, it's uncounterable, unkillable, tutorable, and it digs through your deck to find you more reanimation.

I think DA in place of the 4th Exhume is also correct. I mean, intuition is arguably the best card in the deck by far, but I really want to make sure I win after it resolves. EOT intuition to go for Creature, Undead Gladiator, Deep analysis at the end of turn 3. What do they give you in that situation that doesn't just completely wreck most opponents in the long game? Sure, it's only nettting you two cards, but you are more likely either discarding it to study or fetching it with intuition. In either of those cases it's like netting you an additional card because you didn't have to draw it naturally.

My build look like this:

(from list in the original post:)
-1 Exhume
-2 Oona's Prowler
-1 Garza Zol, Plague Queen
-1 Simic Sky Swallower
-2 Watery Grave
-2 Swamp

+1 Undead Gladiator
+1 Deep Analysis
+1 Intuition
+1 Putrid Imp
+2 Petrified fields
+1 Diamond Valley
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

I'm pretty sure the original list was 61, making that work out right, but I could just be off by one. In addition to the the changes I've already talked about, adding in the intuitionable valley is just so sexy. It gives you a tremendious sacrifice outlet so you can reanimate hellkites again, an answer to stp, massive life gain against burn. It doesn't tap for mana, which is really unfortunate, almost as unfortunate as it's 40$ price tag in an otherwise cheap deck, but it certainly has been broken in testing. Urborg also just does lots of great things for you, most notably it's cool synergy with Sundering Titan (you get to hit one of their "swamps", even if it was, say maze of ith) as well as making the petrified/valley plan easier on your mana base.

rodgon666
12-20-2007, 06:36 PM
youve got to remember that the whole issue of sacrificing your own creatures only works if you have an extra reanimation spell in hand and it should be your last resort. yeah its unfortunate that swords might kill one creature yet you should be able to find another one soon enough, probably faster than they will find another swords or an anwer.

besides from the point that if you run into a wasteland your screwed out of an intuition, and the possibilty of having have fetched for something better.

your never going to want to see a petrified field or diamond valley in your opening hands, the urborg is not a bad idea, ill try one in the deck.

your ting out two critters from the deck, thats makes the probability of you opening with one or drawing into one far less. like we said before garza should be the fourth hellkite, and taking out the SSS is not too good of an idea.

gladiator is still not really that good of an engine. yeah its uncounterable, but onlly as a 1 off, id rather use my intuition to find an answer to whatever shows up and not just fetch for a slow engine.

the reanimation spells are the one thing that should not be tampered with in my opinion, you need them and the more of them you see the better, you never not want to have one in hand.

how is DA any good? really? give me an example of a one of DA in the deck making any big difference? you intuition for it and then what? why not intuition for what you need? that play seems slow and your wasting your search.

Banelich
12-21-2007, 10:40 PM
Reanimator is pretty much my favorite type of deck, and for a number of years, I've believed that UB is the only way to go.

I'm not going to tell you what to add or what to take out....

But the following is a list of a number of cards I've had in various builds

Other Possible Creatures
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Uyo, Silent Prophet
Platinum Angel
Duplicant
Reya Dawnbringer
Dragon Mage
Crater Hellion
Bringer of the Blue Dawn
Volraths Shapeshifter
Dimir Doppelganger
Bringer of the White Dawn

Other Possible Stuff
Dark Ritual
Attunment
Recall
Forbid
Last Rites
False Memories
Sickening Dreams
Insidious Dreams
Possessed Portal
Mindslaver
Lotus Petal
Hurkyl's Recall
Megrim
Wheel and Deal
Diamond Valley


Some of these may seem a little out of place such as Megrim & Wheel and Deal, i've sucessfully used these in the SB in a reanimator deck that had 3 Dragon Mages MD. Then again I always enjoy a deck that can entirely change the meta over after SB to keep your opponent off balance

Other cards like Bringer of the White Dawn I've used in a reanimator combo deck that pretty frequently pulls off Bringer - Mindslaver lockdown / forfeit by an average of 3rd to 4th turn, though occasionally just beats face with a random fattie. Possessed Portal is a fun little singleton in this deck.

Sickening Dreams, Insidious Dreams, and yes Hurkyl's Recall I've found to be very useful singletons in a number of different builds.

Other cards just seem obvious to me like...Kokusho, the Evening Star, and Dragon Mage are just as fun as Bogardan Hellkite, (I think they are all good friends) Diamond Valley as a singleton can be useful at times as well. Uyo, Silent Prophet has good synergy with all the cantrips and reanimate spells, though is frequently targeted. Crater Hellion is a good answer card, the echo can't be paid with your mana base (another time when Diamond Valley comes in handy) Attunement sounds like it might be somewhat slow at :2: :u: then again most builds I've had run Lotus Petals & Dark Rituals, and Stitch Together, and I'm shooting for 1st or 2nd turn Threshold. Also Recall may sound kind of slow singleton at XX:u:, but can frequently be useful for things such as putting Akroma from your hand to the yard & replacing it with an exhume, therapy, or intuiton or such.


Anyways hope you find at least a few of these cards at least worth testing with your build, (which by the way looks pretty good) and GL with it.

rodgon666
12-23-2007, 03:42 AM
Other Possible Creatures
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Uyo, Silent Prophet
Platinum Angel
Duplicant
Reya Dawnbringer
Dragon Mage
Crater Hellion
Bringer of the Blue Dawn
Volraths Shapeshifter
Dimir Doppelganger
Bringer of the White Dawn

Other Possible Stuff
Dark Ritual
Attunment
Recall
Forbid
Last Rites
False Memories
Sickening Dreams
Insidious Dreams
Possessed Portal
Mindslaver
Lotus Petal
Hurkyl's Recall
Megrim
Wheel and Deal
Diamond Valley




hey man first off thanks for taking the time to look up soo many options for the deck, let me go through your list and give a detailed explanation of what interactions they would have with the current decklist. :)

Kokusho, the Evening Star: hardcastable and also a pretty efficient creature. only thing about this creature that is bad is that in order for it to deal its damage instantaneously you would have to have a cabal therapy to sac it too. Swords to plowshares is still the biggest creature hoser and by not being able to deal the damage right away it makes the creature a dead play. ( on the bright side if you dont have access to the bogardan hellkites i would put these instead, it makes the deck a little slower yet more resilient to other aggro and aggro control due to the shear number of life you would be gaining.)

Uyo, Silent Prophet: this creature would be really good if it was cheaper and didnt have to be reanimated in the first place. yeah it could make a difference but you only want to see him if you have a lot of lands in play to be able to return them and then play a spell. its too slow and way for the late game which you should be winning.

Platinum Angel: i guess this could be your only out against decks like SI and Belcher... yet they probably will kill you before it comes down. interesting in multiples and makes it difficult to get beat or loose if more than one hit play. sideboard into 4 against some decks would not be an entirely bad idea :)

Duplicant: i had this guy in my B/G reanimator deck and also my B/R version, but only becuse i had recurring nightmare in them, and not having blue makes it so you have to make the most use of your creatures, if you were able to re use him alot it would be good, but you already have an amazing game against aggro, so im sure you dont need him anyways.

Reya Dawnbringer: by herself she isnt that great. yeah free reanimation everyturn is great, no ... its amazing, but the fact is, if your playing against a deck that cant deal with her... you were going to win anyways. its a win more card with little effect in the ultimate outcome of the game.

Dragon Mage: you do not want to fill your opponents hands with cards, even if its a simetrical draw. if they didnt have an answer for him when he first hit, odds are they will draw into it and be able to get back in the game with a full set of fuel.

Crater Hellion: the dragons do this and more. being able to direct your damage to the player if neccessary and having the critter around to beat is key to the decks speed and consistency.

Bringer of the Blue Dawn: i used to have him in the deck, hes great when he stays, and if he stays for more than 1 turn your going to win, i had a very hard time deciding to cut him from the deck, most would think hes not that good, but hes amazing, its hard to loose when your drawing into 3 cards plus any cantrips you draw a turn. but in the end it ended up being cut since the deck is consistent enough with raw and it doesnt bring as much to the table in the form of evasion in order for it to win the games by itself. ( i might try a build with 4 of these and 4 tidesprout tyrants hahaha)
if you really want to you could cut any of the toolbox critters for him. and it wouldnt be that bad. not as efficient but still very good.

Volraths Shapeshifter: Interesting card, ill really have to try it and see if its good enough of beater and discard outlet. only thing i see that will be a problem is that it would never turn into a creature after carefull study or intuition, since the cards you discard and search for go underneath it in the graveyard after resolution. ill make sure to test it and ill let you know.

Dimir Doppelganger: you dont want to remove your creatures from your yard. sorry but this is a nono.

Bringer of the White Dawn: unless your going for a combo kill or have a ton of sundering titans in the yard and a way to sac them. no need for him.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
and now let me do the same for the card and spell options you put out for the deck.

Other Possible Stuff

Dark Ritual: a two color deck does not want this card, you only get a boost out of it about 50% of the time you draw it in your opening hand. which might not seem like something bad, yet the boost you might get sometime is often not necesery to win any games. you eliminate some speed in order to add consistency of the deck.

Attunment: this would be good if you had alot of flashback spells. as a search spell its good and its not that bad as a discard outlet as well, yet you want to be able to selectively discard your cards not most of you hand. as a top deck its pointless. ( same could be said about careful study, yet that one only costs one not 3)

Recall: 3 for one card, 5 for 2. not bad, its a little like a witness for blue. you would never want to see in your opening hand though. and without it in multiples its not worth it.


Forbid: you dont need to have control elements like counters, i would consider daze since its free and protects your initial turns, not forbid though, most of your mana and turns should be spent searching and reanimating, and to protect a reanimation spell you would need 5 mana, as a discard outlet its not that great.

Last Rites: not a bad card against combo, slow combo. almost any other deck your not worried about what they play enough to try to get it from their hands, instead of maybe swords or counters.

False Memories: fun card! i would love this in ichorid, but as a creature tutor it not as efficient. you want your cards that search to be able to be as flexible as possible and as you have it right now you have some of the most effective tutors for a deck in this style. brainstorm is the nuts... carefull study is both draw and discard, and intuition is just too flexible. on the other hand if you had alot of flashback cards it would be good, but this is not really the deck or this card.

Sickening Dreams: this is also a very good card to add to the deck, you could easily switch these for the oonas prowlers. this create an undisruptable way of discarding ( since the discard is as an additional cost to the mana payed for the spell) as well as an additional source of burn and damage. i used to have these in the B/G and B/R versions of the deck, and if you decide to go with either these or the oonas prowlers its completely a metagame call. if you have alot of aggro go for the dreams, if you have alot of aggro control go for the oonas.

Insidious Dreams: too expensive, it would be amazing at 3. but 4 is too much

Possessed Portal: hahaha really? common its 8 mana... hahaha its would be a late late late late late game card, if you want some disrution of the sort throw in braids cabal minion, nice recurring interaction and disruption of opponents strategy. not an optimal choice though.

Mindslaver: ony if your going for the combo with the white bringer... and if so it should be a completely different thread. you should make one, id like to see that list.

Lotus Petal: look at what i said about dark ritual, the cards boost is not worth the consistensy of the later game.

Hurkyl's Recall: im guessing this is to bounce cards like needle and also crypts... thats what repeal is for and it draws you a card.

Megrim: nah... you dont have enough disruption, but like you said if you have dragon mages then y not. but that strategy would require too much initial setup for it too be too effective in a tournament. great for a casual or multiplayer!

Wheel and Deal: in megrim deck perhaps... but you never want to give an opponent 7 fresh cards... you never do. unless you have some way of doing something in which it helps you more than them. maybe in legacy owling mine? ( do i hear a contest deck winner here? hahaha)

Diamond Valley: its good if you have it... but irrelevant if you dont. never a good card to have in you opening hands, if it produced mana maybe... yet not even worth the investment. very conditional and useless unless you have multiple sto draw it when you need it ( turns 2 or 3 and odds are you only want it turn 3 and if you dont use it turn 3 your critter is gone with the swords before you untap anyways.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

i hope this very long response helps to clarify why these cards should and y there not in the deck, some of these could replace some cards in the deck, you just have to make a metagame call. im giving you an optimal list, with very good results and proven consistency, not just by me but by my tournament opponents ( so you can see its not just MU data). ill be glad to evolve this deck alon with the people iin the source as long as it doesnt just turn into a thread of people discussing there own new reanimator ideas.

lets work on the one thats proven itself, you never know, the mediators might actually bump this to the decks to beat or established deck forums in the future. ( reanimator deck in those forums has never happened before has it? hahaha)

The Legacy Weapon
12-24-2007, 02:36 PM
Hi. I actually have a deck very similar to this one. I never thought of using repeal, though it is an interesting choice. It would be better if you could hit land with it too but it is still nice. I was going to suggest using Dragon Breath. I use this in conjunction with Simic Sky Swallower and it really puts the pressure on. The triggered ability of the Dragon Breath gets around the untargetability but with no red mana you can't pump. It's still nice though. It would also work well attached to a Hellkite or Kokusho. Just a suggestion. Great job on the deck.

Gambit
12-24-2007, 03:07 PM
I tried a reanimator build for a while when I was first getting into legacy. I went through a lot of different targets and ended up settling on creatures with "haste" being absolutely crucial. Akroma, Hellkites (pretty much haste or better), and Razia. Akroma and Razia also had vigilance to stay back and block which almost always seemed relevant as reanimating either does take quite a bit of life. So, I guess the point of this list is maybe Razia would be worthwhile. I do like the somewhat toolboxy aspect of your creatures with intuition though, so who knows, probably you should just stick with whats working

The Legacy Weapon
12-26-2007, 08:20 PM
I would definately second the suggestion for Razia. I have her in my deck and she's a major pain in the ass for aggro. Her ability can fuck goblins over so hard. She can also beat the living hell out of Tarmagoyf. At least take out one of the weaker creatures for her. You won't regret it.

rodgon666
12-26-2007, 09:44 PM
i might replace the skyswallower for her to try her out. ill let you guys know from some testing by monday.

thefreakaccident
12-26-2007, 10:44 PM
Rod, never! replace the sky swollower... it is a sheer nightmare for control players to have to deal with... sometimes titan doesn't work, sometimes things get sworded/stifled... not the sky swollower, he will always go all the way!

rodgon666
12-27-2007, 01:26 AM
lets just say its for testing. i have to at least try what people mention, that way i can give reasonable logic to y do they do and why they dont work.

testing testing testing.

:)

Gambit
12-27-2007, 11:49 AM
I agree, don't cut the sky swallower. But do try Razia, try swapping Garza (if she hasn't been changed to a 'kite)

Greenberry
12-29-2007, 12:36 PM
What about playing some extirpates with Tyrant?
That would be broken also
You just let your opp play whatever he wants and extipate it from the table... don't need to counter/kill anything and then extirpate it...

Jak
12-29-2007, 01:17 PM
RTFC :wink:

Anyways, why 3 Brainstorms? It seems janky as hell because Brainstorm is one of the best spells in the format. Why not run one more?

Moczoc
12-29-2007, 05:43 PM
Hi, I'm currently developping a similar deck. Somehow it's a different concept. I focussed on speed and consitency, even if it costs tons of life. My deck is built to get out a fattie (with ''shroud'') on turn 2. Out of 10 games it reaches its target. The other 2 games it came on 3.
Here is the list, explainations below:


''Sui Necro''

Fatties (14)
4 Simic Sky Swallower
4 Plated Slagwurm
4 Akroma, Angel of Fury
2 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer

Discard (14)
4 Putrid Imp
2 Hapless Researcher
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study

Reanimation (14)
4 Exhume
4 Life/Death
4 Reanimate
2 Mystical Tutor

Lands (18)
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Platinum Angel
4 Nullstone Gargoyle
7 something against LotV


Expl.

The Fatties: All fatties I use are immune to Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, Smother, Engineered Explosives and nearly immune to Pernicious Deed.

Cabal Therapy: Can even be used on the oppenent if you have another discard in Hand, very good with with Imp

Mystical Tutor: Not a secret tech in this deck. My first version played 6 Exhumes, because I didn't find more reanimation cards that work on my critters, so I replaced 2 with Myst. Tutor. ( It plays like this: T1 Myst. Tutor for Reanimate -> T2 Discard a fattie, play reanimate)


Cards I consider

Thoughtseize: Very usefull to discard a creature or to use on opponent, but ... even more lifeloss!
Dark Ritual: speeds up to turn 1, but I would have to switch to monoB and play worse discard spells; costs consistency.
Serum Powder: Maybe I could cut some Multani/Mytical Tutor if I add it. I've got to test it.

Nihil Credo
12-29-2007, 06:20 PM
1) Akroma isn't immune to StP. That's nitpicking, though; it's still clearly the best option.

2) Chrome Mox?

kabal
12-29-2007, 06:31 PM
Here is the list, explainations below:

''Sui Necro''

Fatties (14)
4 Simic Sky Swallower
4 Plated Slagwurm
4 Akroma, Angel of Fury
2 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer



1) Akroma isn't immune to StP. That's nitpicking, though; it's still clearly the best option.

Akroma, ANGEL OF FURY (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/94.html)

suprafan386
12-29-2007, 07:37 PM
what about spiritmonger as a beater

and volrath is a pretty good discard outlet but he doesn't have any form of evasion to get damage in

Greenberry
12-29-2007, 09:37 PM
Why do you opt to use Life/Death if you can use Animated Dead?

Life/Death is only, just only used in Ext to replace reanimate...

Think about it ;)

rodgon666
12-30-2007, 06:51 AM
ok...


( deep breath...)

let me start with the first post after me.

greenberry: unless they discard what you need to the tyrant... and they probably wont if they are any good as players, and then you still need to extirpate to beat them... then itll be good. but if you are bouncing enough things for them to be discarding then your already winning the game aint ya. :)

JAK: theres only 3 brainstorms because its the secondary cantrip for 1 in the deck. in this deck its still amazing yet not as good as carefull study that serves as a discard outlet as well. if yuo really wanted to youd be able to cut 1 repeal for the extra one.

MOCZOC: your creatures being inmmune to swords is relatively pointless. The mayority of your critters will have very good coming into play effects and youll rarely loose to just one or two swords.
plus the deck list you provided has the typical flaws that makes reanimator decks not really that competitive and more of a casual fun deck.

let me explain...

14 creatures is a bit much. you dont need the multani's unless your playing multiplayer. the akromas will never be useful in multiples, and none of them attack right away, so most aggro decks will be able to race you. plus the only creatures with evasion are akromas and the swallowers, all of the rest can be chump blocked for eternity.

and with only 4 carefull studies, 2 hapless researchers..( which suck...) and 2 mystical tutors as your draw, you will have a very bad late game ... even middle game if your initial hand is disrupted in any way. ( the mayor problem with all the rest of the reanimator builds put up. good initial turns yet no steam if something gets countered, which is something my build tries to fix and does it pretty well.)

Life and Death is a horrible card. the only reason it was used in extended is "BECAUSE" animate dead wasnt available. and no stitch together is not good too. you have almost not way to achieve turn 2 threshhold so please dont even consider it.
the whole point of reanimating is to cheat the creature into play, with as little drawback as possible... and trust me, -1 in power is alot better than losing 8 life.


oh... and gemstone mine sucks here too...trust me if your games go so long as too have to hard cast your critters... your probably not going to win.

Nihil: chrome mox is even worse than dark ritual... the speed you get is never worth the card disadvantage and late game dead draws... the deck is fast enough as it is. the extra speed makes it just a tad bit more fast... yet alot more less resilient.

suprafan386: Spirit monger is a good creature yet theres better ones in the dek already, plus it doesnt win the game by itself at all...
volrath is good as well... but you cant consider him as a discard outlet... since you need to have a discard outlet and a reanimation spell in order for him to become a discard outlet ^_^. think about it. hahaha your not ever going to hardcast him... trust me.

Nihil Credo
12-30-2007, 09:33 AM
Nihil: chrome mox is even worse than dark ritual... the speed you get is never worth the card disadvantage and late game dead draws... the deck is fast enough as it is. the extra speed makes it just a tad bit more fast... yet alot more less resilient.
Chrome Mox was meant for Moczoc's deck, actually. The idea being that if he's going to abandon resiliency and just plan on a very fast unkillable creature, Mox both speeds the deck up a full turn (letting it race most aggro) and allows it to go off before the opponent can play discard or cantrip into Force of Will.

jeremys
12-30-2007, 03:59 PM
Show and tell was mentioned a while back. I'm curious where you would run it. Maindeck in place of a discard outlet or reanimate spell? Sideboard to combat graveyard hate? It doesn't do anything till turn three but it has the advantage of not needing a creature in the yard or a discard outlet, just in hand which you should have if there are no creatures in the yard or discard outlets.

Moczoc
12-30-2007, 07:42 PM
Why do you opt to use Life/Death if you can use Animated Dead?

Life/Death is only, just only used in Ext to replace reanimate...

Think about it ;)

Life/Death isn't that bad. It is Reanimate + 1 mana. Furthermore Animate Dead would reduce the creatures power and make it possible to destroy it with Vindicate, EE and Deed. But the major point is that since the last errata it is no longer possible to use Animate Dead on creatures with shroud!



Chrome Mox was meant for Moczoc's deck, actually. The idea being that if he's going to abandon resiliency and just plan on a very fast unkillable creature, Mox both speeds the deck up a full turn (letting it race most aggro) and allows it to go off before the opponent can play discard or cantrip into Force of Will.

Sadly that plan doesn't work. In most situations I need 3 mana to go off. Normally I make 1 in turn one and two in turn two. Chrome Mox would give 1 more in turn 1 what doesn't speed me up (would only work with Reanimate)




14 creatures is a bit much. you dont need the multani's unless your playing multiplayer. the akromas will never be useful in multiples, and none of them attack right away, so most aggro decks will be able to race you. plus the only creatures with evasion are akromas and the swallowers, all of the rest can be chump blocked for eternity.


Uh, that is right. My build is a gem in theory and goldfishing, it's really balanced, fast and consistent but in real games I often got outraced or chump blocked all the time :( :((

All in all, I think it might be better to play a little slower (with some discard/counter) and use creatures that stop your opponents army like Blazing Archon, Bogardan Hellkite etc.

rodgon666
12-30-2007, 10:02 PM
ok people seeing as this is the 3rd page of the thread im going to post up an updated decklist with some of the suggestions put up and tested by me and my crew.

the list itself hasnt changed much. revisions to the creature base only changed slightly and i also included some options for some cards that can be substituted in case you have a different metagame. also mayor changes to the sideboard. Im sorry to just dismiss the other build mentioned here on the thread plus please lets stay to what has been tested and proven itself in more than goldfishing and casual games please.

version 2.0

61 cards ( yeah 61, i didnt miscount ^_^ )


Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Intuition
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Brainstorm
3x Repeal

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
3x Putrid Imp
2x Oona's Prowler (or sickening dreams in heavy TES metagames)
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Symbiotic Wurm

Lands:
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
2x Watery Grave
6x Swamp
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Wipe Away: this is here against counterbalance style decks, heavy black decks with leyline, and decks with scepter chant locks

3x Show and tell: this worked best against decks like landstill and also black aggro, it was house after sideboard also agaisnt decks such as shuffle truffle and such, that side in massive hate.

3x Defense Grid: (if you dont have heavy control metagames change this to the 4th copy of each of the other 4 cards)

3x Propaganda: TES and anything that produces massive amounts of creatures fast, like Goblins, elves and other such decks that might have the potential to overwhelm you. its also bomb against any type of decks that use manlands or have little resources to attack with. fish style decks suffer from this too.

3x Stifle: this is just nuts against alot of decks, belcher, TES, any storm based combo, also anything that has alot of fetchlands as well as any activated ability combo decks.

----------------------

Please read the entire thread before you post up any suggestions, i know its long and tedious but if you look youll see that alot of the typical questions have been answered.

Y cards like blazing archon are bad.

y cards like life and death dont work.

y the deck is what what the deck is. simple.


oh and RAZIA was good in testing, yet not better than anything setup. it could substitute the symbiotic wurm, if you dont have alot of black decks or STAX style decks in your meta.


oh also... animate dead does work on creatures with shroud, it just doesnt work with creatures with protection from black.
please read the latest wording on GATHERER.

Michael Keller
01-01-2008, 12:08 PM
Has anyone thought about this yet:

Mind Bomb (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/DK/Mind_Bomb.html)

I mean, at worst you'll Lightning Bolt an opponent, you can pitch it to Force if you decide to play it, and it lets you discard cards. Only costs one mana, too. Might work.

EDIT: It could also help speed up the deck by a turn. If you notice the big guys in the 'yard have mostly power 6. An early Mind Bomb (unless they Hymn themselves, which is fine) will take them down two or three life so you can get them at 18. Careful Study is light years better, but it might be another option aside.

rodgon666
01-01-2008, 03:22 PM
that might not be a bad idea.

actually for the pure damage aspect its not bad. in most cases it would be a lightning bolt for both.

ill test it in the place of the repeals and also ill try it in place of the oonas prowlers.

this might be good to side in against control too. since you end up beating face with imps anyways.

Shabbaman
01-03-2008, 09:59 AM
Have you tried the Orlove reanimator Zombie infestation/Squee package? If so, what don't you like about it?
I always remember Kai Budde's extended UB Reanimator from the Benzo era, and I have this playset of FoW's lying around. If you're playing blue, shouldn't there be something to do with those (well, not my playset in your case ;) )?

rodgon666
01-03-2008, 01:39 PM
the only problem i see with running force for this deck is that the deck itself has alot of cards which generate discard and half of your cantrips are made for getting cards in the yard. this makes your hand sizes relatively small as it is and removing cards from it to a further extent was hurting the deck alot. we have tried force of will ( i mean it was a logical option, but it was sub optimal in this deck that attacks so much and recovers soo quickly) we also tried thwart, forbid ( for there discard qualities... and they sucked balls...). the only one that was actually not bad at all was daze. but the problem was that while it defended you somewhat it never ended up stopping the dreaded crypts or leylines, or even swords, if you play against a competent opponent.

they certainly didint expect it though. and it has a very bad late game draw look to it as well... you dont want to see a daze turn 5...

ok... lets start with the the other part of your question. orloves reanimator.

ok. yea i have tried orloves reanimator deck, it was good, yet its a pretty fragile engine. you depend alot on the zombie infestations/squee to win. its makes it really hard to play around a crypt, planar void or anything like that maindeck, and a single deed eliminates most of your win conditions. oh and i cant remember how many times i just lost to an extirpate for all my akromas... or my squees...
it doesnt really have a consistent clock, somtimes youll have the nuts and kill on turn 4-5 or youll get disrupted little and itll go to turn 8-9.

dont get me wrong, the deck is good, yet not as resilient as this one.

my deck recovers fast and it wins fast. turn 3-4 kills are not uncommon.
pulling wins out of your ass is not rare either. while staying consistent through disruptions.


if people want to discuss Orloves strategy feel free to look up the thread for that deck. its a completely different way to win and i guess it has its own flaws and strengths.
but its not even close to being the same deck.

Shabbaman
01-03-2008, 03:26 PM
That it's a different deck, that's what I figured out already. I can follow your reasoning, thanks. It makes your choices clearer. So if you're scared mostly of crypt, swords and Leyline, what about countertop?

rodgon666
01-03-2008, 05:23 PM
thats the thing, when i play this deck im not really scared of that. maybe leyline... but you can play around that too.

what i said about those cards was that when i play orloves reanimator im more scared to see those cards than i am with my current build.

an opening turn leyline doesnt spell game over for me. or an extirpate in the first parts of me setting up.


as to countertop, yea its annoying but it takes them at least till turn 3 to set it up perfectly to a lockdown... and you can still play around it. and thats if they have a fast hand. you average a turn 2 creature a good 75% of the time.
in testing it has been an issue, but not to the point where its hard to win. they will steal some games from you, but its not worth changing the deck around for it. its not that unfavourable. just reapeal it away in a timely manner.

rodgon666
01-07-2008, 02:23 PM
ok this week i tried turning the sideboard into a transgression from combo aggro to pure aggro.

the creatures in the sideboard were as follows.

+3x serendib
+4x brain gorgers
+4x confidant




-1x Bogardan Hellkite
-1x Tidespout Tyrant
-1x Simic Sky Swallower
-1x Sundering Titan
-1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
-1x Phantom Nishoba
-1x Symbiotic Wurm
-4x Exhume


leaving only 3 hellkites as the reanimation kill.

i found the transgression was not as optimal as it could have been. it did well against most of the decks, yet there was never a time were i couldnt have had a better chance with the reanimation strategy.

quite frankly i wouldnt go with it.

i missed my sideboard options too much in some of the matchups. specially stifles and wipeaways.

rodgon666
01-20-2008, 06:11 PM
ok kiddos. i took my pet deck to yet another tournament this week with some slight modifications to test. took first place in a 5 round tournament, and only lost 1 game out of all the matches.

first the decklist then a brief report of the tournament.

61 cards


Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Intuition
3x Brainstorm
2x Repeal

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
3x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Symbiotic Wurm
1x Tombstalker

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard:

2x repeal
4x echoing truth
3x propaganda
4x stifle
2x show and tell


round 1. elves

game 1: he mulls to 5 and i get a turn two skyswallower. he condedes before playing any cards.

Game 2: he gets several elfs out, llanowar turn 1, priest of titania turn 2 and 3. i get a turn 2 nishoba with an imp out start beating, he searches for the lifegaining elf and then i bring in a tidesprout tyrant. and keep bouncing his dude that pumps the others. i win after a brief calculation of how much damage he can do..

Round 2. i cant remember for the life of me what i played against. i just know it lasted good 7 min for me to win both games.

Round 3: black white Pikula.

game 1: i go first he plays a land duress and passes withered wretch 2nd turn . i manage to get a turn 3 dragon and live through a diabolic edict thanks to my faithfull imp. i just beat and win.

Game 2: one duress only and i see no graveyard hate and bring a sundering titan into play turn 3. get rid of his lands, beat through a shade and ride his back for an easy win.

Round 4: U/W/ landstill

Game 1: I get a dragon out and he kills it. another reanimation spell, then alot later another and a couple imp beats seal the deal.

Game 2: a turn 3 skyswallower seals the deal for me. i just ride hos back to victory even after wrath ( i reanimated him again)

Round 5: 4 color landstill

Game 1: alot of swords and alot of counters make me go to 36 life, i drop him to 1 with dragon hits and imps and oonas... but he takes control of the game and i cant draw a reanimation spell over his counters. boo...

Game 2: Skyswallower once again wins the game single handily.

Game 3: he goes tropical island and passes. i go land pass. he plays fetchland pop to search and i stifle the effect. he cant find a white source for the life of him and i just beat him to death with a dragon.


and taaddaaa! first place through a 10-1 game record.

tombstalker is awesome in the deck. it gives you some flexibility in the later game when they counter your reanimation spells.
as a 1 of only though, mulitples are kinda useless.


propaganda has to be changed for something else.

and yes i took out the cabal therapies for a slightly more aggro approach, and it worked great.

Pango
01-22-2008, 12:08 PM
At First: I am new in this forum, my name is marc and i am from germany (this is why my english is not the best :wink: )


Here Guys, this is my actually list:

12
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead

18
4 Careful Study
4 Flash
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition

11
4 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Angel of Despair
3 Symbiotic Wurm

19
4 Chrome Mox
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
2 Island

SB:
4 Duress
4 Pithing Needle
4 Gastly Demise / Vendetta
3 Magma Giant


I was searching a long time for an option to get the fatties into the graveyard, i think the card "flash" is one very good option.
Because of this i just play creatures with comes into play / leave play effects.

What do you think?

greetings
marc

Welcome to the forum.........Flash (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af173), however, is banned in legacy - J

rodgon666
01-23-2008, 02:35 AM
hahaha. if only flash was legal. if only. hahaha

Pango
01-23-2008, 02:54 AM
oh if flash is banned?? :frown:

then i have to print the actually banned list :cry:

instead of flash in would play the oonas prowler or the putrid imp.

what else can i change in this deck?

rodgon666
01-23-2008, 03:13 AM
with out flash in your list it seems a little bit underpowered. try the list i posted alongside my tournament report, im ure youll be more than happy with the results.

TheLion
01-23-2008, 06:24 AM
Why does nobody play Buried Alive? Is it too bad? Is Intution just better? (probably). I just dont like the randomness of drawing the fatties, and thought Buried Alive would fix it. So you play first turn Careful Study, and discard one RANDOM fattie, and you wish "damn, a SSS would be better", because you know/feel, your opponent has a Sword.
And aren't 12 Reanimation spells too much? I always end up having ~3 on my hand. And only 1 fattie in my gy.
But the deck is fun too play with!

Benie Bederios
01-23-2008, 07:23 AM
I think Buried Alive is the way to go in a mor combo orientated deck. You just bury Kiki Jiki, Sky Hussar and Karic Guide and go from there(or of course Ghoul, Krosan, Krosan). Otherwise Intuition >> Buried alive, because it can dig 3x Cabal Therapy( very very savage) or triple Reanimator spell. On top of that is the instant speed of Intuition very nice. What me strikes is the lack of 4x Akroma. When I played Reanimator I always started with 4x Akroma. Why isn't it played anymore, It's the fastest clock we have.

BB

Pango
01-23-2008, 08:39 AM
In my opinion Intuition is much better than buried alive (instant speed, searches fatties, reanimate spells, therapy and in 2nd / 3rd game sb options).

I dont understand your sb rodgon666:
Isn't Propaganda just a target for goblin's disentchant - isnt the magma giant together with hellkite an option the kill opponents creatures?

My akromas, worm, etc. did nothing versus swords to plowshares, hellkite and giant killed every gobbo bevore removed from swords....

For what the stifles? Isnt Therapy with Duress better vs. combo and control?

Questions over Questions^^

Greetings
Marc

conboy31
01-23-2008, 01:00 PM
Akroma's fall from grace was a result of the oracle text changing on Animate Dead, as pro black creatures can no longer be brought in with it. This esentially reduces the ability to bring her back by about 1/3 of a standard reanimator deck assuming something like 4 reanimate, 4 exhume, 4 animate dead.

Team-Hero
01-23-2008, 01:30 PM
Why not Razia over Akroma?
I understand that she is missing half the abilities Akroma is missing and she is in bolt range, but I believe she would be the better choice in the end.

Akroma can't benefit from Animate Dead; Razia can.
Akroma can't kill 2x1 Goblins; Razia can.
If had to, Razia can kill up to a X/9 creature in combat.

Both Akroma and Razia suffer from Swords to Plowshares, so that doesn't really play a factor.

Another question...
What ever happened to Recurring Nightmare?
Shouldn't at least one copy be in the deck now that the deck has much stronger search capabilities?

What do you guys think of Sanguine Praetor? With the Prowler and Imps he can kill anywhere from Goyf to Mongoose.

Pango
01-23-2008, 03:39 PM
Razia: i dont like creatures without comes into play / leave play abilities.
i think the strongest ability form razia is that she is attacking hastely without beeing tapped. but is this creature so good?

recurring nightmare: i like it. very nice combinations with the most of our creatures. i would like to play 1-2 in the deck but what to cut??
o don't even have place in my deck for oonas prowler (i play 4 cabal therapy, becauce i have fears from the dragon stompy deck: 1st turn chalice of the void for 1, 2nd turn chalice for 2, conscede...). So what to cut??

Sanguine Praetor: wow, i did not know that this creature exists^^ looks good, can kill moongosse, goyf, 1/2 mana gobbos etc.
if i would play him, i had to play oonas prowler.

mmh this is everything not so easy^^

TheLion
01-23-2008, 06:24 PM
I'd rather play Kuro Pitlord instead of Sanguine Praetor, if you need creature removal. But why do you need it anyway? Do you fear, the evil 1/1 Mongoose?
Or a Tarmogoyf, while you are attacking with akroma?

Having 2 Chalices in hand, is about 7% probability... and if... thats the game... Landstill concedes too against a first turn Magus of the Moon, if they cant FoW.

maybe cut 1-2 Animate Dead for 1-2 Nightmare, if you feel ok with this. 12 Reanimation spells are more than enough IMO.

thefreakaccident
01-23-2008, 06:45 PM
Recurring Nightmare is slow and clunky in this deck... it has way too many requirements/drawbacks... if it gets stifled, you just lost a creature and cannot reanimate another creature...

It is also 3 mana, and it is needleable... I say do not run it, even if it is a really good card (good card, not good in this deck...).

rodgon666
01-24-2008, 03:56 AM
The lion: you always want to draw into more reanimation spells that yo have creatures. you have 11 creatures ( in my current list ) + 4 intuitions so 15 ways to get creatures, so at least by statistics 1 of 3.5 cards or so you draw will be a creature fatty enabler. the more creatures you get out the easier it is too win. logical right?

Benie Bederios: the combo with skyhussar kikijiki and karmic guide is too slow. if you dont draw into your buried alive your not going to combo off, and it makes the deck incredibly reliant on the opponent not having a swords, or crypt.
also akroma x 4 is not as good as people portray. not being able to animate dead her anymore, and the fact that she is useless if you draw into multiples.


Pango: alright let me say, propaganda is not the best option for that sideboard slot. you should not lose to gobbos. its not even a close game. as long as you keep a descent hand and you know when to mull youll almost never loose to them, like ive mentioned before, gobbos and affinity are almost byes. stifles are alot stronger against storm combo decks than cabal therapy/duress will ever be, in fact its stronger against all combo thats a horrible match for you. TES ( stifle the storm) belcher ( the goblin charbelcher ability) scepter chant ( the imprint ability ) other than that its amazing to just bring in as anti sideboard sideboard hahaha, stifle that crypt that you muled to 5 to get. yeah... hahaha.

propaganda is not really neccesary and we should find something better to substitute it with that helps with the bad matchups.


Team-Hero: Razia and Akroma suffer from the same problem. and Akroma is soooo much stronger. as a 1 of you rarely run into a situation were you cant reanimate her. also in multiples shes bad since shes leyendary too. oh. and your not going to have a bad matchup against any aggro.
Sanguine predator is not that good. like stated, this deck is not really worried against aggro, removing a mongoose by saccing a creature you could use to attack for the same amount the mongoose attacks for ( ok maybe 1 less.. ) and you have this dude in play... then your playing the deck wrong.


kuro pitlord is also horrible, not being ale to reanimate him till turn 4 or later is BAAAAAAAD! very bad! also the loss of life is not going to save you. pay 5-6 life to kill one goyf... nah, its not worth it.

recurring nightmare is at least on paper an amazing card to play in this deck. i have tested it and unfortunately discovered that at 3 mana it is slow in alot of situations. its not bad, yet its a kill more card. you do leave yourself open to losing to a random stifle.

if you decided to run it though i would only run 1 or 2. no more. take out your repeals for them. not any of the other reanimation spells. but youll notice its not really worth it.

Pango
01-24-2008, 04:08 AM
@ The Lion:
I'm not sure if kuro pitlord is the choice. He targets the creatures (moongoose) and you have to pay life (is that the plan versus goblins?) in addition to the reanimate spell. and you must pay BBBB during your upkeep, this can't you pay oftenly.
I think the removal plan is hellkite + magma giant after boarding, but i have to test these guys togehter.
Why fearing little creatures with fattie in play: they are faster, opponent can remove your fattie etc.

@ thefreakaccident:
Yes, i think your' re right. Recurring nightmare might be something like "overkill" so we don't need it really (needle, stifle etc. sucks).
The card "show and tell" is something like this. in the right matchup it may be a strong card, but you don't want the opponent to show you some strong permanent. i wouldnt play this too.

Pango
01-24-2008, 04:32 AM
@ rodgon666:
thank you for the explaining about stifle. i think i will play it now in the sb, too. insteat of propagande i just would play some creature hate like vendetta/ ghastly demise (fast, low cost, strong).


and no, don't play some slow crap like kiki-jiki and karmic guide

rodgon666
01-24-2008, 04:33 AM
show and tell is actually a pretty good sideboard card. specialy against decks with massive graveyard hate. like pikula style decks and black control.

you will always be able to put something enourmous into play while they mostl likely will play something meaningless to go against it.

Pango
01-24-2008, 04:41 AM
aaah right i understand.

could you post me your catually sb list?

rodgon666
01-24-2008, 04:54 AM
2x repeal
4x echoing truth
2x wipe away
4x stifle
3x show and tell


the echoing truths are against combo like TES or anything with a lot of token generation

repeal against small aggro, white weenie, suicide black, or if you fear crypt.

wipe away against scepter chant and or counterbalance.

show and tell against black aggro control or stuff such as shuffle truffle style decks, or landstill

stifle is also against combo and yet its so versatile that i side it in against alot more than that.

TheLion
01-24-2008, 05:33 AM
Are 2 Watery Grave necessary? 6 fetchies and 4 U Sea seem enough. And more basic lands means you are less vulnerable too nonbasic hate.

What about the idea too add 3-4 Phyrexian Dreadnought in the SB, to have an alternate plan against graveyard hate? You could board it in, when you would board in the stifles anyway, or you feel, there will be much GY hate, in the second/third game.

rodgon666
01-24-2008, 05:38 AM
most peoples graveyard hate include only 4 cards, of which most are quite easy to work around.

ive thought about the whole dreadnought stifle thing for the side, but without search for the pieces like trinket mage or such your not going to see it often. still worth testing though.

also make sure you look at the latest decklist not the one in the first page.

8 fetchlands and 1 waterygrave. you could substitute the grave for a swamp, but y ?

Rood
01-24-2008, 04:04 PM
How do you fair against fast combo such as Ichorid or Breakfast? I can assume you can try to race them but do you sometimes find yourself not fast enough with your lack of disruption?

rodgon666
01-24-2008, 04:21 PM
yeah you got it right on the money.

the deck itself tends to bend over preboard to incredibly fast combo. turn 1 and 2 kills are devastating, and even with a full set of therapies it would not be able to race them.

but the deck shines and excells against almost every other type of deck. which is a compromise im willing to make. thats what sideboards were made for right? every strategy has a dead matchup preboard.

thresh has stax

TES style decks have landstill and homebrew style disruption strategies. ( actually im not sure of this. )

this just has a harder match against turn 1 -2 decks. no more than any other aggro deck like goblins or elves, yet it works other style decks like control, aggro control and aggro and slow combo over like no other.

Rood
01-24-2008, 05:03 PM
I see well I suppose that TES isn't so bad if you bring in Stifles/Echoing truths to bounce back their permanents. Graveyard reliant combo can be a bit of an issue have you thought of perhaps boarding Crypts/Jailers? I may even want to say Jailer would be a nice Sideboard tech against fast decks like this. Jailer absolutely wrecks Ichorid.

Burr
01-24-2008, 10:51 PM
wouldnt the addition of dark ritual help this deck? or does it not need it? rituals are so good!

thefreakaccident
01-24-2008, 11:29 PM
Ritual is unneeded, as many of the 1 drops contain blue, and you gain more consistancy without it (although it can allow some early broken plays sometimes).

rodgon666
01-25-2008, 02:25 AM
Burr:

if you backtrack and read the thread from the beggining youll see a pretty detailed explanation of why dark ritual and other cards work and dont work.


and yes you could remove 2 wipeaways and 2 repeals for a 4 of metagame slot in the sideboard.

Pango
01-25-2008, 02:41 AM
I think Jailers are a very good SB option.

Bevore i would play 8 bounce spells for different matchups i would play the right option for the right matchup like jailers....

rodgon666
01-25-2008, 02:56 AM
everyone is entitled to their opinions. hahahaha

like i just mentioned you could sub 2 wipeaways and 2 repeals in the side for jailers or crypts or whatever you have running around in your meta thats hard to deal with. extirpates wouldnt be bad either.

its up to the player to make their mind up in the end dont let any one of us stop ya. im just providing data i have tested and not guesses or just something i think might work. i wont stick up for something i havent tested and found it works. but you can do what you want too. thats y its a forum. hahahaha

Zigg
01-26-2008, 09:10 AM
Hello, I'm from germany so first apologies for my bad english.

I play reanimator casually. I was looking for some new options for my deck just to reckognize that all this touranemt decks try to do is to kind of get some *underwhelming* entomb effect in splashing blue which I play as a 4 of in my deck, or am I missing something that is making the blue splash superior even with entomb?

MasterC
01-26-2008, 10:07 AM
The problem is that entomb is banned in Legacy tournament play. Otherwise it would surely be included in every Reanimator Deck.

Greetz

Willoe
01-27-2008, 01:50 PM
Thanks god Entomb is banned. The closest we get to it is buried alive, am I right?

rodgon666
01-27-2008, 03:30 PM
thats right Entomb is Banned, if its wasnt then reanimator decks would be very good, but i dont think those would be the biggest problem if it wasnt.

yeah buried alive is the closest thing in order to search and dump into graveyards.


anyone see anything good in the new set? anything playable for this deck??

i havent had time to look through a spoiler for cards, it would be good to know.

enemyofarsenic
01-29-2008, 02:58 AM
How about bringer of the green dawn? It gives you a 3/3 body during your up keep for blocking and attacking =]

rodgon666
01-29-2008, 04:27 AM
just to clarify here for future posters, the bringers all of them seem to be relatively slow, and have almost no immediate impact on the game. well they dont even win the game if they are left alone 1 or 2 turns, so in retrospect they are very slow.
5/5 bodies with trample are just not that good as it is, they will be blocked by big goyfs and die and only a couple of them have descent abilities ( the blue one and the black one which fetch for cards you need to finish the deal) the green one and red one only have more defensive qualities and abilities which dont really work with the synergy of the deck.

simply put... they do not provide a clock fast enough or an ability soooo game changing that makes them playable and competitive.

TheLion
01-29-2008, 05:18 AM
Speaking of game changing abilities... did you test Nullstone Gargoyle or Blazing Archon?

Team-Hero
01-29-2008, 09:58 PM
Speaking of game changing abilities... did you test Nullstone Gargoyle or Blazing Archon?

Nullstone Gargoyle is not that good because it only eliminates one card and that isn't backbreaking to most decks. In his case, might as well run a Platinum Angel. At least she makes the opponent have to get rid of her first.

Blazing Archon used to be in the deck but he was cut because we simply need to run four copies of the Hellkite. Blazing Archon is good but he just doesn't cut it as much as he used to. In this deck, you do not want to go defensive.

rodgon666
01-29-2008, 09:59 PM
please read the thread, the creatures mentioned have already been explained and the testing has showed that neither of them are good. go back and read before you start posting. odds are your questions have already been answered.

rodgon666
01-29-2008, 11:56 PM
i believe we have another 1st place finish with the deck.

TEAM-HEROE ( hector ) last friday at Game empire. so that makes it 2 weeks in a row that the deck takes 1st.

i believe these were his notes on his variation.

"so on Friday I ran the B/U Reanimator deck and got 1st place. I changed it up a bit from yours by making it 60 cards and I changed 2 of the big guys. I cut the Sym Wurm and the Tombstalker for 2 Bringer of Blue Dawns. I also didn't use a Tidesprout Tyrant because I don't own one. Overall the deck was very solid and never saw any bad matchups. It's perfect."

now if he could just post up a tourney report then we can see how those changes worked.

TheLion
01-30-2008, 04:19 AM
Ok, Nullstone Gargoyle wasnt really discussed here, but i tested it, and its impact seems to be too low..
Reya seems to be made for this deck, but it was discussed as a win more card only... hm kay.
Next idea would be the inclusion of 2-3 Lightning Greaves. possible? tested already? And Symbiotic Wurm seems suboptimal to me.

Team-Hero
01-30-2008, 03:15 PM
5 Swamp
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
- 19 Lands -

3 Oona's Prowler
3 Putrid Imp
1 Simic Sky Swallower
2 Bringer of the Blue Dawn
1 Sundering Titan
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Phantom Nishoba
- 16 Creatures -

4 Exhume
2 Intuition
4 Reanimate
3 Echoing Truth
4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
4 Animate Dead
- 25 Other Spells -

1 Repeal
2 Turbulant Dreams
1 Filth
4 Imp's Mischief
4 Stifle
3 Defense Grid
- 15 Sideboard -

Excuse me for being vague but this happened last Friday and all the matches were very fast.

Round 1
Bye

Round 2
I played against a very defensive deck. It was a mix between Landstill and White defense. Maze of Ith came out both games but the Reanimator deck was just too fast. The Hellkites were the star in this match up because they just kept dealing 5 damage directly every time they came out and he couldn't do anything about it. He kept Swords to Plowshares my creatures but it didn't matter because I had a Bringer of the Blue Dawn out and he stayed for about two to three turns. I had enough ammo in my hand to finish the job ruthlessly.

Round 3
I have no idea what I played against. He brought out an Oona's Prowler and when I attempted to Exhume he pitched a Hellkite to his graveyard. I really thought it was a mirror match. I exhumed an Akroma and just went on the aggressive. His Hellkite did nothing except shoot me for 5. I later closed the game with another Exhume (no creature in his response) and brought out a Simic Sky Swallower.

Match 2 was much faster. On my second turn I Animate Dead a Sundering Titan; blowing up 2 of his lands and none of mine. During the second turn, I also pitched a Filth just in case he had some way to recover with blockers. He was left with no lands and no answers so he conceded.

Round 4
I played against burn and got my butt kicked the both games because I suck (I'm just kidding). I really lost both games because of my fault and my opponent was very skilled. I totally forgot about Price of Progress on the first game and that wrecked me. Last time I checked, Reanimate and Price of Progress don't go together very well. On the second game I missplayed an Imp's Mischeif and took a Incinerate when I should have waited for a Shrapnel Blast (or something just as big). I had game two won but I should of just kept the Mischeif in my hand and let the Bringer win me the game with beats and draws.

I still ended up in 1st overall.

4 Stifle
3 Defense Grid

were never used.

4 Imp's Mischief

were suppose to be there against heavy direct removal but I ended up using them against burn. I still believe they are a very good card in this deck because the opponent can't afford to have a Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, Diabolic Edict, or Putrefy miss.

2 Bringer of the Blue Dawns

I was very happy with their performances. They saw play almost every game and just gave me that boost of cards and confidence. There's a nice feeling in Magic when you know you can just spam spells away and out cast your opponent.

4 Brainstorms
8 Fetchlands

Amazing. Being able to fetch and look at a fresh new top three or put two on top, fetch, and never see those two again.

What I would change:
-1 Bringer of the Blue Dawn
-1 Echoing Truth

+1 Tidesprount Tyrant
+1 Intuition/Putrid Imp

Willoe
01-30-2008, 03:35 PM
It is intentional that the deck does not run any counters/discard/disruption?

Anyway, it's a pretty good deck :)

rodgon666
01-30-2008, 04:12 PM
yeah it is intentional.

the reasoning i have behind it is that if you can play your spells and be able to recover faster then your opponent and never give them a chance to play except defensively you will not lose. and most of the time my theory works wonders.

counters would only essentially want to counter Swords to plowshares, that is the one card that you might be worried about and yet you can still play around it.

with crypts you need to play well and know what your doing, if not your going to scrub out like a noob.

and you have bounce for leylines.

ill have to test the imps mischief as well, it sounds good. and i did have 3-4 open slots from the propagandas in the side.

and bringer of the blue dawns for the tombstalkers and the symbiotic are not a bad way to go. ill test it this week as well and let you guys know the results.


awesome job in the tourney.

burn is not out friend. hahaha. but it should be relatively even. if you see alot of it just put blue elemental blasts in your side.

enemyofarsenic
01-31-2008, 04:06 AM
How about thunder dragon? That is one sexy dragon i heard, but I believe Bogardan Hellkite replaced it or something huh? =]

rodgon666
01-31-2008, 04:14 AM
yes thunder dragon was in my previous lists, but i believe that thunder dragons ability falls short to the Hellkites. simply put the ability to be able to direct the damage to either opponents or creatures make it incredibly better. and as it is you dont really lose to aggro, but if you dont have all 4 hellkites it would be next best thing for creature control.

Team-Hero
02-01-2008, 03:07 AM
Thunder Dragon is very good depending on the meta he's up against. He nukes and cripples a lot of decks like Goblins, Thresh, Elves, etc. He isn't a bad choice.

Pango
02-01-2008, 12:37 PM
Team Hero:

Yes, i think you are right. He is a very well mass removal option and i would play 1 in addition to the hellkites.

(but i dont think that this deck must hate elves^^)

mnellsae
02-01-2008, 01:47 PM
...and bringer of the blue dawns for the tombstalkers and the symbiotic are not a bad way to go. ill test it this week as well and let you guys know the results.



Yeah, I have found that Symbiotic Wurm sucks if you're not running Cabal Therapy. There's no other reliable way to put them in your GY.

rodgon666
02-01-2008, 02:40 PM
you are correct in that.

no therapies means the efficiency of the symbiotic wurm goes down a huge amount.

the bringers do add a nice have to kill creature to the table but im still not completely certain about it, i need to test more matchups. other copies of skyswallower would be great as well. but ill have to make sure before i say anything for sure.

rodgon666
02-01-2008, 02:44 PM
also.... what are the criteria to moving this to the Established deck forum? some certain amount of tournament wins? mmmm???

Cabal-kun
02-01-2008, 04:48 PM
also.... what are the criteria to moving this to the Established deck forum? some certain amount of tournament wins? mmmm???


For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required.

Right on the 'front page'.

enemyofarsenic
02-01-2008, 10:50 PM
Yeah, I have found that Symbiotic Wurm sucks if you're not running Cabal Therapy. There's no other reliable way to put them in your GY.

How about Verdant Force / Thunder Dragon / Garza Zol, Plague Queen to replace symbiotic wurm in the list?

Verdant Force - gives you 1/1 critters for attacking/blocking (somewhere along the lines of symbiotic wurm tokens).

Thunder Dragon - good against aggro and tokens (sweeper, fattie).

Garza Zol, Plague Queen - gives you haste, evasion and card advantage.

Team-Hero
02-02-2008, 02:52 AM
Keeping in mind that every meta is different, Garza Zol, Plague Queen and Bringer of the Blue Dawn are good choices for the replacement of the Wurm. Also, I've been pushing this but people seem to be against it... Mindleech Mass. I still stand by Mindleech Mass as a really good creature for this deck. He adds card advantage in a different way and disrupts the opponent at the same time.

enemyofarsenic
02-02-2008, 04:45 AM
Mindleech Mass - Oh yes, it looks like a good card in this deck. How were your testings by the way?

Rood
02-02-2008, 05:23 AM
Keeping in mind that every meta is different, Garza Zol, Plague Queen and Bringer of the Blue Dawn are good choices for the replacement of the Wurm. Also, I've been pushing this but people seem to be against it... Mindleech Mass. I still stand by Mindleech Mass as a really good creature for this deck. He adds card advantage in a different way and disrupts the opponent at the same time.

Mindleech Mass is a beating, normally one connect from him and it spells game over...I support this idea

Team-Hero
02-02-2008, 03:48 PM
I'd have to test the Mindleech Mass. It's all a theory on paper right now. But I see no reason for it to be a bad choice.

The Rack
02-03-2008, 03:21 PM
I believe the reason that Rod doesn't play Mindleech Mass anymore is because it is a winmore card in almost every case. And the few cases it isn't winmore you would probably have other stuff anyhow. To be honest, I don't see many permanents that Reanimator would desperately need to stop or else it loses. That's what I recall Rod saying.

Team-Hero
02-03-2008, 04:05 PM
I believe the reason that Rod doesn't play Mindleech Mass anymore is because it is a winmore card in almost every case. And the few cases it isn't winmore you would probably have other stuff anyhow. To be honest, I don't see many permanents that Reanimator would desperately need to stop or else it loses. That's what I recall Rod saying.


But Mindleech mass doesn't just stop permanents, it also stops their tech tree.

For example:
You Exhume Mindleech Mass during your second turn. On the opponent's second turn he drops a land and plays a Tarmogoyf. On your third turn you attack and see the opponent's hand. You can very well rip a Vindicate, Intuition, Fact or Fiction, or SOMETHING that they could potentially cast on their third turn and use if for yourself. I'm not worried about the permanents, I'm more worried about the spells they can cast. Last time I checked, people (other than me) don't play jank cards. Most cards in people's decks are good enough for you to be able to say "Oh, I'd really like to play that now". Even if Mindleech Mass doesn't hit a card, at least now you know the opponent is playing off the top of his deck.

Against a black deck Mindleech Mass can rip an opponent's hand to nothing. If Mindleech Mass were to hit a discard card (especially Hymn to Tourach), that would become a massive amount of card loss for the opponent. If Mindleech Mass were to hit a draw spell, that becomes massive card advantage for you.

I don't really see Mindleech Mass as a win more card. I see him more as one of the best distruptive methods this deck could potentially have while being a beater at the same time.

rodgon666
02-04-2008, 02:20 AM
actually the main reason the creature is not in the deck is that its a very bad late game and by late i mean turn 4 and on creature. against aggro its ok still on those late turn match ups. he is incredibly explosive in the first turns, im not going to object to that, yet the longer the game goes and if he shoes up, he is not going to affect the game all that much.

its not completely unviable, as a matter of fact hes quite playable instead of the symbiotic wurm. i havent tested many matchups with him in this build, i just remember him not being all that great in the B/g B/r and mono black builds.

TheLion
02-05-2008, 03:41 AM
I'm currently testing Stitch Together. How much did you test it? I test it, since I found that loosing 8 life for a Reanimate is often too much against aggro. You sit there turn 3 and cant even cast it on Hellkite, since you would go down to 0 or so low, that you would lose to their next attack.
On the other hand, achieving ******** until turn 3 is usually not a problem, together with 8 fetchlands, Careful Study and discard outlets.

Oh, and how is the Aggro SB plan working? Is it worth testing? (The black madness creatures).

rodgon666
02-05-2008, 04:21 AM
trust me... you do NOT! want to replace reanimate for stitch together...

by doing this you make the deck even more graveyard dependant than it already is.... hahaha

and it also means that you cant really use it till turn 3 at the earliest. maybe doing this play...

turn 1 carefull study and fetchland...= 4 cards in yard 5 cards in hand.
turn 2 carefull study and land 2 = 7 cards in yard 4 cards in hand.

or turn 2 imp... dumping 3 cards....( which is not a good play....)

then not until turn 3... maybe you get to play it. it makes you have to work sooo much harder in order to reanimate your critter.

you dont really loose to aggro. for the initial turns you have oonas prowlers and putrid imps to block and stall then once you get a dude in play they just crumble, or if they have an answer you still did something to slow them down.

aggro is this decks best matchup.

combo is the worst.


trust me stitch together has been tested... alot. it would be amazing if it didnt need threshold... unfortunately it does and thus its not good. i would seriously play dance of the dead before it. but theres a reason i dont.

also reanimate is the only 4 of your 12 animation spells. 2/3 of the time you wont loose any life to getting creatures out, and ive still to encounter a match where the life lose was so significant that i couldnt afford it, and i play this deck every week at pretty large legacy tournaments ( 25+) and casual play just to see my pet deck evolve.

ok for your other question...

madness creatures.

honestly i have only tried brain gorgers.

Creature - Zombie
P/T: 4/2

When you play Brain Gorgers, any player may sacrifice a creature. If a player does, counter Brain Gorgers.
Madness 1B (If you discard this card, you may play it for its madness cost instead of putting it into your graveyard.)


and it was good if i had a full set of oonas and imps. but still not good enough for the main. more of a sideboard option to go aggro with reanimation combo finish.

as for the other ones, the only other one that seems relatively good is the nightshade assasin, but having him in a duo colored deck decreases his potential exponentially. but worth testing.

manofbio
02-06-2008, 04:26 PM
Would Bringer of the Blue Dawn or Bringer of the Black Dawn be better in this deck? Is the extra card advantage from the Blue better than being able to pick the card?

rodgon666
02-06-2008, 05:22 PM
the bringer of the blue dawn is better than the black version simply due to the fact that your not losing life every turn. its nice to be able to fetch any card you want, yet the decks mecanics are soooo simplistic that the more card advantage you have will produce the same or a better advantage than what the black bringer can produce.

manofbio
02-06-2008, 07:26 PM
What's the most recent build for this deck?

rodgon666
02-07-2008, 03:35 AM
My current build after some modification thanks to Hero ( hector ) and some other testing, i believe this build is the most efficient as of now.

B/u Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.

Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
3x Intuition
3x Brainstorm
2x Repeal

Enchantments
4x Animate Dead

Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
3x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
2x Bringer of the Blue dawn

Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island


Sideboard:

3x Pithing needle
2x Repeal
4x Echoing truth
4x Stifle
2x Show and tell

-----------------

i still believe greatly that reapeal is superior to echoing truth in the main, simply due to the fact of the card draw.

the bringer has shown good results in testing against control, he just becomes too much of a draw engine and if not stopped within 1 or 2 turns the game is over, even if he doesnt attack.

the needles in the sideboard are due to the inmense disadvantage versus goblin belcher based decks, and it also stops a wide array of decks out there as well.

enemyofarsenic
02-07-2008, 11:28 AM
No more tombstalker? =[ The good thing about tombstalker is that it is hardcastable.

rodgon666
02-07-2008, 12:09 PM
he was good, i would still run him if you see alot of graveyard hate in your metagame. im still testing if 4 in the side would be good to have. just simply due to the harcastable aspect of him.

but also to tell the truth he only shined against control, against aggro he was nothing special, since most of the time i would have to reanimate him before i could bring him into play for cheap. and a 5/5 flyer with no other abilities doesnt affect the game that much, hes much more of a distraction till the big boys come in. but hes one hell of a distraction. hahahaha

Nightmare
02-07-2008, 12:52 PM
i believe this build is the most efficient as of now.

61 cards.

3x Brainstorm

These things concern me. Granted, I'm aware of the issue with Brainstorm putting stuff in your library, vs. putting it in the yard, but there simply is no denying that its the most efficient cantrip in the game. The 61 cards thing is ugly, though. There is no way you could consider this the "most efficient" build and justify the 61st card.

rodgon666
02-08-2008, 12:34 AM
mmmm? and y not?
Not trying to pick an argument of any sorts but where is it specified that a deck has to be exactly 60 cards in order to be at its most efficiency? is this an unwritten rule of some sorts? if the strategy of the deck works nicely, and works in a consistent manner, and does exactly what i want it to do AND produces great results in both testing and tournaments, then i believe that i dont have to justify the 61st card in the deck, the decks results justify it for me ^_^.

even if the deck was 73 cards, if it produces good results ( which mine has at least here in SD) then its quite ok to leave the 61st card in and not change the strategy to much, and thanks to that i can easily say that the decklist i put down is as of now the most efficient version of B/u reanimator created to date.

Nightmare
02-08-2008, 12:36 AM
There's always a worst card. Playing the minimum amount of cards is always the correct decision.

thefreakaccident
02-08-2008, 12:40 AM
Don't forget your 5th place finish at the D4D a while back with your green reanimator deck Rod!

This one is vastly superior to that other one and you got 5th in the D4D...

rodgon666
02-08-2008, 12:52 AM
looking over the decklist if i had to cut a card it would be the 3rd brainstorm simply put, yet i dont feel the need to since i havent encountered any problems with the synergy and build of the deck.

having only 60 cards is not the correct decision, its only a decision that people have categorized as correct. and something being common law doesnt make it the only way to go. innovation? probably not, just another way of thinking.

maybe i should start making 70 card decks and wining with them, wouldnt that shatter all your guy's boxes you live in. hahahaha

rodgon666
02-08-2008, 05:32 PM
i believe that this deck has been brought to the point tha it should be moved into the established deck forums.

in has filled the criteria of what is asked for in order for a deck to be in that forum:

For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required.


i also believe that i have given sufficient card and strategy explanations and thus would like one of the moderators to please relocate this thread the established deck forums.

if you need me to do anything else in order for this process to be done please let me know and ill be more than happy to provide it. thanks.

enemyofarsenic
02-09-2008, 05:17 PM
I think you would need to do like a thorough writeup for the deck and actually post it in "Established". Btw im using Tombstalker/Garza split instead of two blue bringers. I love tombstalker and Garza is sick as well hehe, evasion + card advantage..

Team-Hero
02-09-2008, 11:23 PM
I think you would need to do like a thorough writeup for the deck and actually post it in "Established". Btw im using Tombstalker/Garza split instead of two blue bringers. I love tombstalker and Garza is sick as well hehe, evasion + card advantage..

See, that's why this deck is sooooo good. It can adapt itself with the proper beaters to establish an advantage in a certain meta.

rodgon666
02-11-2008, 01:16 AM
ok sounds like i have some work to do. ill make sure to post up the most relevant of the information of the deck as well as the do and dont's and post it on the established decks forum, lets see if the mods agree with my decision to move it there. hahaha

rodgon666
02-11-2008, 06:17 AM
ok after a couple of hours of typing its been done.

i have put up a very very very detailed description of the deck in the established deck forum.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8639

take a look if interested. odds are ill have answered your questions.