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Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 08:29 PM
I started a Cavius Sligh thread a few months back and have gotten moderate feedback over the deck. Since then, I've been improving the deck and came to the conclusion to splash white in such a Goyf infested meta. My list runs Swords along with other tools to combat the current metagame. Here's the list. Tell me what you guys think. :cool:

Cavius Sligh 2k8.DEC

Spells:43
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Serra Avenger
2 Ronom Unicorn
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Cursed Scroll
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast

Lands:17
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Plateau
2 Savannah

Sideboard:15
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 True Believer

I splashed white for Swords to Plowshares, True Believer and Granger Guildmage activation costs. I also decided to run Aether Vial becuase of the low land count and high creature density. This deck should handle tarmogoyfs easily with 4 StPs, as well as the cute little combo known as Granger Guildmage + Ohran Viper. Granger Guildmage not only deals damage to annoying 1/1's but also gives my Viper first strike, destroying any opposing creature in it's path. I nice little combat trick I like to play on my opponent is to set my Aether Vial @3 with a Viper in hand and Guildmage in play, Vial in the Viper, block the unsuspecting critter and give my Viper first strike with my Guildmage. This effectively acts as creature removal and should catch unsuspecting opponent's by surprise. The True Believers in the board can also be vialed in against innocent minded combo players and catch them by surprise as well. Ohran Vipers also draws you cards which isn't that bad of an ability as well. :wink:

This deck is basically Cavius Sligh, but with a splash of white, and better suited for the current metagame. I don't have much else to say about the deck, but I would love to recieve any feedback, if possible, on it. Let me know what you guys think of this delightful twist on one of my 'signature' decks. Let the discussion commence!! Peace.

EDIT:

-4 Blood Knight
-4 Fireblast
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Sacred Foundry

+1 Savannah
+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Chain Lightning
+4 Lightning Helix

SB changes:
-4 REB
+4 Swords to Plowshares

EDIT2:
-1 Granger Guildmage
-1 Serra Avenger
+2 Ronom Unicorn

EDIT3:SB changes:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Gaddock Teeg

EDIT4:
-1 barbarian ring
-1 forest
-1 mountain
+3 Chrome Mox
-3 Granger Guildmage
+3 Cursed Scroll

Tacosnape
12-17-2007, 08:36 PM
...Accio Tarmogoyf?

Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 08:39 PM
...Accio Tarmogoyf?

I guess I could always take out the Blood Knights and replace them with Tarmogoyf. This deck is designed to combat Tarmogoyf but I don't see any sense in not to include it in the deck. I just wished those damned things weren't so expensive. :tongue:

Bovinious
12-17-2007, 08:42 PM
Granger Guildmage, Ohran Viper, and Blood Knight seem awful, and it also needs moar Tarmogoyf, and possibly Lightning Helix. This just looks like an offbeat RGW Zoo deck to me...

Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 08:48 PM
Granger Guildmage, Ohran Viper, andBlood Knight seem awful, and it also needs moar Tarmogoyf, and possibly Lightning Helix. This just looks like an offbeat RGW Zoo deck to me...

I agree that this deck needs Tarmogoyf. But I have to disagree that Granger Guildmage and Ohran Viper are bad cards. They're both good on there own but a house in conjunction with eachother. I also have to disagree with this deck being an off beat RGW Zoo deck. RGW Zoo runs inferior vanilla beaters like Savannah Lion and Jungle Lion. I prefer cards that actually do something. I'm ever bold enough to say that this deck is better than RGW Zoo becuase of the superior creature selection and mana curve. Zoo dies to Chalice for 1. This deck begs to differ.

Freshrock
12-17-2007, 08:50 PM
Yeah, I'm not feeling it with the orhan vipers and granger guildmages (especially guildmages, giving your creature first strike is such an irrelevant ability). Any reason why you aren't playing savanna lions and isamaru? They are some of the most efficient 1 drops in the game and I do believe that is what Zoo is all about.

And what's that Sacred foundry about? anti-extirpate tech?!? looks really amateur.

Bovinious
12-17-2007, 08:53 PM
Well, if I were you, in addition to Goyf, I would add Lightning Helix, Isamaru, Watchwolf, and possibly Savannah Lions, Chalice at 1 isnt that big a deal, you have MD Hooligan and can SB Shattering Spree if your worried about Stax...oh and Id also cut the Vials and add a 3rd, MAYBE 4th Jitte.

Cavius The Great
12-17-2007, 08:53 PM
Yeah, I'm not feeling it with the orhan vipers and granger guildmages (especially guildmages, giving your creature first strike is such an irrelevant ability). Any reason why you aren't playing savanna lions and isamaru? They are some of the most efficient 1 drops in the game and I do believe that is what Zoo is all about.

And what's that Sacred foundry about? anti-extirpate tech?!? looks really amateur.

Sacred Foundry is an additional white mana source for the True Believers in the SB which can also be sacked to Fireblast.

Read my comment above to get my opinion on vanilla beaters such as Savannah Lion and Isamaru. I think my comments present a relevent argument.

Freshrock
12-17-2007, 08:58 PM
Sacred Foundry is an additional white mana source for the True Believers in the SB which can also be sacced to Fireblast.

Read my comment above to get my opinion on vanilla beaters such as Savannah Lion and Isamaru. I think my comments present a relevant argument.

Sacred foundry also hurts you, or is incredibly slow for the deck. I think savanna would honestly be better, or even (dare I say it) basic mountain.

as for the vanilla beats thing, lions is faster than 'oh em gee lemme give orhan viper first strike and that's the only use for this ability oh wellz'. If you really think the pinging ability was relevant then you would run lavamancer over it, does more damage and at the same price.

Cavius The Great
12-18-2007, 11:39 AM
Well, if I were you, in addition to Goyf, I would add Lightning Helix, Isamaru, Watchwolf, and possibly Savannah Lions, Chalice at 1 isnt that big a deal, you have MD Hooligan and can SB Shattering Spree if your worried about Stax...oh and Id also cut the Vials and add a 3rd, MAYBE 4th Jitte.

Isamaru does nothing, Savannah Lion does nothing and Watchwolf does nothing. The only reason to include Goyf is becuase it can get so huge. And Granger Guildmage is not garbage. It can kill BoPs, lackeys, Dark Confidants etc. In multiples they are just sick. And another huge reason Guildmage is so good is giving my Goyf first strike. Staring down at a 4/5 or 5/6 first striker is extremely scary for most opponents. Giving my Kird Ape first strike in a sea of Goblins or Carnophages is another example. When I have two Guildmages in play, I can take out close to 75% of Legacy's most playable creatures. I like cards that do something, not vanilla beaters like I stated above.

xsockmonkeyx
12-18-2007, 12:48 PM
Isamaru does nothing, Savannah Lion does nothing and Watchwolf does nothing. The only reason to include Goyf is becuase it can get so huge. And Granger Guildmage is not garbage. It can kill BoPs, lackeys, Dark Confidants etc. In multiples they are just sick. And another huge reason Guildmage is so good is giving my Goyf first strike. Staring down at a 4/5 or 5/6 first striker is extremely scary for most opponents. Giving my Kird Ape first strike in a sea of Goblins or Carnophages is another example. When I have two Guildmages in play, I can take out close to 75% of Legacy's most playable creatures. I like cards that do something, not vanilla beaters like I stated above.

The Granger isnt that bad of an idea actually. He will probably be better with the inclusion of Goyf as he would help you win Goyf battles.

Phantom
12-18-2007, 01:59 PM
I'm not sure how this deck is supposed to compete in Legacy. It is slow. It runs no disruption. It runs no unconditional card draw so it will lose to every sweeper, and it doesn't run enough burn to finish the job of its woefully tiny creatures. I'll elaborate:

1) This deck is slow. Super slow. I would imagine its best goldfish being turn 4-5 with average being much worse than that. How can that compete with combo? Which brings me to my next point.

2) The deck runs no disruption. Sui black isn't blindingly fast or anything, but the deck runs tons of quality disruption. So does Faerie Stompy. So does Red Death. So does basically every good aggro deck except Goyf Sligh and Goblins, which are both much faster than this deck and STILL struggle with combo.

3) I tested Viper. A LOT. It is not a Legacy card even in a much better shell for it than this (rancor and accel). You do not force control into any sort of bind. They will simply soak up the 10 or so damage you do until the Deed or Wrath or whatever. Then you will lose since they just 3 for 1'd you and you have no draw to recover, and not enough burn to win even if they aren't holding counters.

4) Basically, you need to decide on a strategy. Do you want to be a sligh deck? Then run Goyf Sligh. Want something slightly different than that? Splash black not white. White goes against Slighs gameplan of winning quickly (well at least StP does) and black offers superior combo and yard hate as well as a much better draw creature.

Cavius The Great
12-18-2007, 02:30 PM
@Phantom - This deck is designed to beat aggro and aggro control. I've tested this build against UW Angel Stompy, more than a few dozen times, and I win more than 60% of the time the first game and close to 90% post sideboard. I realize that this deck can't race combo but this deck does a stellar job at beating aggro and aggro control. Just figured I'd let you know that this deck does have decent matchups against certain archetypes. :wink:

Freshrock
12-18-2007, 02:59 PM
Isamaru does nothing, Savannah Lion does nothing and Watchwolf does nothing. The only reason to include Goyf is becuase it can get so huge.

Isamaru, Savannah Lions, and Watchwolf all do more damage than you pay for, they like budge creatures that are bigger than the cost that you payed for.

In short, they do damage.



And Granger Guildmage is not garbage. It can kill BoPs, lackeys, Dark Confidants etc. In multiples they are just sick.
And another huge reason Guildmage is so good is giving my Goyf first strike. Staring down at a 4/5 or 5/6 first striker is extremely scary for most opponents. Giving my Kird Ape first strike in a sea of Goblins or Carnophages is another example. When I have two Guildmages in play, I can take out close to 75% of Legacy's most playable creatures. I like cards that do something, not vanilla beaters like I stated above.


Yeah, you know what else kills those things? Grim Lavamancer, and it can take out carnophages and warchiefs (and apparently close to 75% of legacy's most playable creatures) as well for less mana and quicker than double granger guildmage, oh and it won't shock you either so I guess that's good too. And if you are in a metagame infested with goblins or...carnophage.dec? then you should probably be playing white or silver knight instead of blood knight. Oh and if your opponent is cowering in fear as you swing in with a 5/6 tarmogoyf that you just gave first strike, the are cowering because you have a 5/6 tarmogoyf; not because it has first strike.

edgewalker
12-18-2007, 05:10 PM
Doesn't swords kinda counteract the whole "kill the opponent as soon as possible" plan of sligh? I understand swords is awesome at killing things, but it has a place, and since you want to bring your opponent's life to 0 asap, this isn't one of them.
I understand I'm going to get "omfg how can you say that stp is f'ing sweet" but it's true, most decks play stp because their goal isn't that of sligh. You would be better off splashing back and playing shit like smother. I always have had a problem with reactive removal such as stp and the life in such a proactive deck.

vigilante
12-18-2007, 05:23 PM
I've been thinking the same thing [about StP] since the decklist was first posted. Sure, it's a good answer to opposing Tarmogoyfs, but so is running Tarmogoyfs of your own, which the deck currently doesn't.

Once Goyfs go in, it frees up the StP slot for more appropriate removal such as Chain Lightning (which, as a sorcery, conveniently grows Goyf). At that point, the only thing in the deck requiring white is Granger Guildmage (oh, and the SB True Believers, which deserve a massive wtf)....I think it's pretty safe to say that 4x Granger Guildmage isn't a good enough reason to splash a third colour, so they'd happily get replaced by Grim Lavamancer (which has been mentioned before).

Testing would then show that Vial, Blood Knight, Ohran Viper (and to a lesser degree, Jitte) are sub-optimal choices for this type of deck, and should be replaced with a combination of burn spells and more efficient creatures. By the time those changes kick in, the deck is virtually Goyf Sligh (or close to it), which is what it should have been in the first place.

Wallace
12-18-2007, 05:26 PM
I also agree with a lot of wahts being said here. Isumaru and Savannah Loins are both sweet and Watchwolf is a 3/3 for :w::g:, why not play them. I would play Isumaru over Lions, I have moved away from playing Savannah Lion because of Fanatic and he trades with any one power dude. Grim lavamancer is really good and should be played over the guildmage.

What do you have against vanilla creatures, after all Tarm and Kird Ape are vanilla? When playing a deck don't you want to play the best cards possable, even if it's a vanilla creature. G/W/R zoo has done really well in extended and Standard, I think it can do well in legacy too. You get the best burn spells and the best creatures, use them...


4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Isumaru, Hound of Konda
3 Watch Wolf
2 Mogg Fanatic

4 Chain Lightning
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Helix

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Mountain
1 Plains

I would try something like this, I have been playing this arch type for a long time, in many diffrent formats. I have found that while Aether Vial can speed up your creatures it slows down the deck. This may sound strange but its true, drawing and playing Vial turn one or two is awsome, any time after that just sucks. I have mid to late game drawing a Vial and wishing it was a burn spell or a dude to drop now. Well there's my thoughs on this deck, do with it what you like...

Cavius The Great
12-19-2007, 02:46 PM
Decklist updated. Tell me what you guys think. My major concern right now, though, is Fireblast. Should I run it or not? Other than that, cutting some card choices were pretty cut and dry. I know I sound crazy cutting Fireblast but I didn't know what else to cut. :rolleyes: I would love to get you guy's opinions on this.

EDIT:
I put Fireblast back in. I also added a Serra Avenger which makes running white worth it. Especially with Aether Vial.

Media314r8
12-19-2007, 03:46 PM
@ guildmage + viper 'combo'

Viper's rules text put a trigger that resolves at end of combat, it does not have 'venom' ability, so first strike is irrelavent, unless dealing with a 4/1...

Aether vial and serra avenger seem like a two card combo that lets you play a 3/3 flyer turn three... or you could just play serendib efreet. On turn 1, or sea drake. Vial works in goblins as it is a 1 card combo, with all the golbins with CiP effects, in addition to the card advantage offered by matron, ringleader, ect. vialing in a goyf to block turn three is neat, but not really worth having 4 vials take up room. Least not without 6+ art lands and shrapnel blast.

MB tin streets + vial = not a combo.

Deck is going in too many directions. Goyf Sligh should look something like:

4 Goyf
4 Dryads
4 Lavamancer
4 Jackal pup (???)
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Jungle lion (???)

4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lava dark
4 Price of progress

8 fetch
2 Barb ring
1 Keldon megalith (???)
4-5 basics
4 Taiga

(list done in about three minuites, and I STILL think it goldfishes faster than above deck)

with things like magus of the moon, krosan grip, ee/chalice/thorn/SOMETHING to beat combo, and winter orbs sideboarded.

I don't mean to flame/ bash your deck, but you've departed from the SPEED of sligh, and the basic principle of KILLING YOUR OPPONENT FASTER THAN HE CAN COMBO?STABILIZE, ect. Props for being original and attempting something new, slops for a deck with no disruption that wins on turn 5+

Cavius The Great
12-19-2007, 08:53 PM
Thanx for the input Media. But I can't stress enough, that this deck is infact good. Good against combo, probably not, but this list totally annihilates aggro and aggro control, which makes it relevant enough for consideration. So in the right metagame I truly believe that this deck can be successfully.

revenge_inc
12-19-2007, 09:13 PM
Ohran Viper should not be included. It is too slow.
Granger Guildmage use is too narrow. Sideboard at best

Cavius The Great
12-19-2007, 09:48 PM
Ohran Viper should not be included. It is too slow.
Granger Guildmage use is too narrow. Sideboard at best

I took out the Vipers and replaced them with Serra Avenger. It seems you didn't notice. :wink:

I have to disagree with you on the Guildmage though. It's very versatile, more versatile than Lavamancer becuase of the first strike option. It helps me win Goyf battles as well as ping annoying creatures like lackeys and confidants, but I've already stated that. It also gives my Kird Apes and Hooligans first strike to take out opposing Piledrivers and most the Goblins creature base. It also gives my Avengers first strike to take out Moongooses. On the contrary, my friend, it serves multipurposes making it far from a narrow card. I really have to disagree with you there. It's also better than Lavamancer becuase the Lavamancer has bad synergy with Goyf, anyway.

revenge_inc
12-19-2007, 10:38 PM
I took out the Vipers and replaced them with Serra Avenger. It seems you didn't notice. :wink:

Oops my bad. :wink:


I would only run 3 Avengers though because you never want 2 in your opening hand because it can really slow your clock (the whole "turn 4" thing). They are quite good, so I think 3 is a good number.


I have to disagree with you on the Guildmage though.

He is a metagame call at best. Bad vs combo and horrible if you face removal and he remains your only creature. (or even if you have him left with a smaller creature because a first stricking or "3/3" Kird Ape mid to late game is not that impressive

Cavius The Great
12-19-2007, 10:47 PM
horrible if you face removal and he remains your only creature

If he's my only creature I could always ping my opponent to death. :wink:

And I think that my opponent would be more threatened by the Guildmage than most of my creatures since I will be able to ping stuff on the other side of the board, if he doesn't get rid of it. It's sort of like running Confidant just to draw creature removal to him instead of your other threats. It's the same analogy.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it can also serve as a Mogg Fanatic and block and ping to kill a 2/2. I'm not sure about this but I believe it can be done if you manipulate the stack ruling.

revenge_inc
12-19-2007, 10:55 PM
If he's my only creature I could always ping my opponent to death. :wink:

LOL (too slow) :wink:



And I think that my opponent would be more threatened by the Guildmage than most of my creatures since I will be able to ping stuff on the other side of the board, if he doesn't get rid of it. It's sort of like running Confidant just to draw creature removal to him instead of your other threats. It's the same analogy.

He won't draw removal. He will draw it to other creatures because alone (or even just 2 of them together) he/they suck(s).



And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it can also serve as a Mogg Fanatic and block and ping to kill a 2/2. I'm not sure about this but I believe it can be done if you manipulate the stack ruling.

Correct (but in this case a simple Kird Ape is better).

Cavius The Great
12-20-2007, 12:32 PM
I would only run 3 Avengers though because you never want 2 in your opening hand because it can really slow your clock (the whole "turn 4" thing). They are quite good, so I think 3 is a good number.

What do you suggest replacing the 4th Serra Avenger for? I'm thinking either a 3rd Hooligan, a 3rd Jitte or a singleton Ronom Unicorn. What do you think about those options? Do you have any other suggestions?

kicks_422
12-20-2007, 07:07 PM
But I can't stress enough, that this deck is infact good. Good against combo, probably not, but this list totally annihilates aggro and aggro control, which makes it relevant enough for consideration. So in the right metagame I truly believe that this deck can be successfully.

Goyf Sligh already does that, the whole annihilating aggro/aggro-control thing. Why add a third color (and risk losing to your own manabase) if you're not going to improve the combo MU?

kirdape3
12-20-2007, 08:20 PM
While Granger Guildmage is cute, Grim Lavamancer's just the same creature but better. First Strike isn't really relevant because well, who blocks? If they're blocking, chances are they're not doing it with a creature large enough to knock yours off. Therefore, you're left with a 1/1 for G that you can pay R, tap, deal 1 to any target and one to yourself. Compare that to Lavamancer and you see how raw of a deal it is.

As for the manabase, the miser's Barbarian Ring doesn't do it for me. I can easily see stretching the mana to a fourth color (black, I choose you!), because now you get Dark Confidant and Cabal Therapy out of the board. You don't get Fireblast, but that card isn't any good and certainly not as a four-of.

EDIT: Until I had this deck purloined from me, this is what I was running:

4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Meddling Mage
3 Duress
3 Armadillo Cloak
1 Umezawa's Jitte

This deck is what your deck wants to be when it grows up. Your creatures are awesome, you control the board as well as anybody, you have a ton of reach, and you supplement it with a sideboard that really beats up on combo and stops control a lot.

What it loses to:

1. 2 Wastelands. You have 9 lands that tap for mana, and if they kill two of them that's really annoying. Sometimes you get there regardless, but sometimes you don't.

2. A really focused board control deck can just put you out by plays like Plow your first kid, Circle: Red, something giant to win the game.

3. I personally wouldn't want to play against Chalice of the Void very much, but Chalice after turn 1 isn't that scary. If you expect a ton of artifacts, Ancient Grudge is your answer in the sideboard anyways.

This deck is very, very good.

Nihil Credo
12-21-2007, 06:10 AM
@Kirdape3: That deck loses to Counterbalance so bad. You're lacking the Vials and SB Grips of Cavius' build.

Cavius The Great
12-21-2007, 12:35 PM
Why add a third color (and risk losing to your own manabase) if you're not going to improve the combo MU?

I run True Believer in the SB. I can always run more stuff to combat aggro if I wish like Pyrostatic Pillar, but I need a better rounded SB to deal with graveyards as well. That's why I'm reluctant to take anything out besides the StPs. Simoon is also kind of cool against EtW if I ever plan on playing in a Belcher/TES infested metagame. :wink:

On another note, I just updated the list. I now have 2 Ronom Unicorn in the MD after cutting a guildmage and an avenger. I felt it was the right choice. Now I can effectly make my Goyf a 6/7 and get rid of moats and counterbalances game 1, as well as other prevalent enchantment cards.

@kirdape- Doesn't Grim Lavamancer and Goyf have bad synergy?

EDIT: 11 one drops and 11 two drops FTW. =P

EDIT2: I don't know why I haven't thought of this before. Gaddock Teeg should be a major reason for splashing white. I'm running 4 in the SB versus combo. Teeg and True Believer should help me significantly against combo if I ever drop either one down soon enough. I'm also thinking of running 3-4 Chrome Mox in the MD and cut some lands to lay either one down on the first turn. Sounds solid to me, what do you guys think?

EDIT3: I made a bunch of other updates. Too much to list. Check the first page for more info. =)

Here's the most updated list.

Cavius Sligh 2k8.DEC

Spells:43
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Viridian Zealot
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Serra Avenger
2 Ronom Unicorn
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Cursed Scroll
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast

Lands:17
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Plateau
2 Savannah

Sideboard:15
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 True Believer

kirdape3
12-21-2007, 01:35 PM
You'd be surprised on how resilient this deck is to Counterbalance. They have to have it awfully quickly, they have to have the right cards on top right away, and you have to not have a Cursed Scroll to keep fighting them with. The sideboard can be adjusted for Grips if you would like, but AEther Vial is not going anywhere near my copy of this deck.

And the supposed lack of synergy between Lavamancer and Tarmogoyf is just that, supposed. If Lavamancer's online, you're chomping down on fetchlands and instants - things that your opponent is liable to have in their own graveyard. You don't have a lot of things to put in the graveyard otherwise, and you can manage what's there and what's not in your own to make your kids bigger.

Cavius The Great
12-21-2007, 01:42 PM
I like your build, Rian, it seems interesting. I'm just a little skeptical becuase of the lack of GY hate in your deck. It looks really solid though and my team members are already talking about it.