[Article] Zvi writes about breaking Legacy

[Lukas Preuss]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15176.html

Update - Article now free. - Bardo

We’re up to part 4… and that means Legacy preparation! Going into Worlds, Hall of Famer Zvi Mowshowitz, aided admirably by Legacy Grand Prix winner Steve Sadin, looked to crack the format wide open. Zvi reveals all about his Legacy thought process going into the event, and shares the list that he proclaims as the Best Deck in Legacy bar none!



Sadly, I don't have a premium account, but can someone summarize if this article contains what it promises? Anything we didn't already know about the format and his deck?

[WiLdFiRe]

He basically talks about the gauntlet he ran the deck through, it started as a time vault combo deck until he realises that it doesn't need to be combo and just runs it as a straight enlightened tutor control deck with Counterbalance. He also tested breakfast with a Kiki kill and no goyfs which (to me) seems subpar. Moving on from there, he sticks a breakfast kill into the sb of his control deck which just didn't work and so he goes back to straight control and spouts off about how it's the best deck in Legacy.

[Lukas Preuss]

Thanks! That's kind of what I thought. Nothing new about the format basically. Too bad, I really would have liked a good Time Vault combo list... but it's probably really not worth it.

[Zach Tartell]

Does somebody want to post his list here? Or is that too illeagle?

Also, am I the only one who gets freaked out by looking at his picutre?

[Machinus]

Didn't he think UW landstill was the best deck in the format? When Goblins was popular?

[TheZvi]

Hey guys. Thought I'd drop by and clear some things up, since I'm curious to see you guys' take on the situation. I also wanted to make sure you had the list.

First, the list is public (you can see it over at mtg.com, for one), so here it is:

1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Eternal Dragon
4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Seal Of Cleansing
2 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Wrath Of God
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aura Of Silence
1 Circle Of Protection: Green
1 Circle Of Protection: Red
1 Moat
1 Rule Of Law
1 Threads Of Disloyalty
2 Hydroblast
2 Pulse Of The Fields
2 Tivadar's Crusade

That sideboard was designed for worlds, where I (more or less correctly) figured there would be a lot of threshold and goblins due to time/card access issues. I never thought they'd split the preperations off from the matches, so the claim of 'best deck' at the end looks quite aggressive. Overall it went 16-6 in played matches (the last round of worlds involves a lot of concessions due to players' club incentives) and the only player who with multiple losses takes the blame for it himself for such things as never playing a game with the deck before the tournament. There's no question in my mind we had the best list out there for the field we had to face, and I couldn't find a list I actively didn't want to fight. The thing I'd most fear is a version of this or old Landstill that wants the matchup a lot more than I do. As usual, that's trouble.

I never said the word BREAK with regard to Legacy. Everyone here has this image of the arrogant pros, and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm posting this here because I respect The Source and the work done here. The format is fine. If you want to beat this deck, you can. Worst case scenario is that the deck is forced to turn on itself, and it has little margin for error.

Historically, I never thought Landstill was the Best Deck(tm) but I feel it was the correct choice for me at that GenCon; obviously my build was subpar in some ways.

The Cephalid transform idea was included mostly because it was just super cool; hopefully the idea of sideboarding into Breakfast is something that can be used down the line for someone else. It would be a shame if it came up just short, but I think that giving up the Vials for Counterbalances in general is quite strong and I never felt happy with Goyfs in the deck.

On Time Vault, at this point I don't think there's any reason to play it, but the minimalist version is likely the right path if you want to do it anyway. It does give you some advantages, I suppose.

I do think I found some other stuff out about the format, but it was beyond the scope of what I was writing. The general dismissal here of Worlds as being nothing new is sort of right, but I think it's more wrong than right. There was (of course) this build, but also I wouldn't underestimate the changes made to Threshold. The move away from Wasteland, Spell Snare and 2-3 color builds, many of which had red, to 3-4 color builds with an emphasis on Dark Confidant, Counterbalance/Top and the card advantage angle is a big shift because these new builds are devestating in a mirror and force the Threshold deck to move thus shifting its other matchups.

[Alfred]

Hey guys. Thought I'd drop by and clear some things up, since I'm curious to see you guys' take on the situation. I also wanted to make sure you had the list.

First, the list is public (you can see it over at mtg.com, for one), so here it is:

1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Eternal Dragon
4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Seal Of Cleansing
2 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Wrath Of God
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aura Of Silence
1 Circle Of Protection: Green
1 Circle Of Protection: Red
1 Moat
1 Rule Of Law
1 Threads Of Disloyalty
2 Hydroblast
2 Pulse Of The Fields
2 Tivadar's Crusade

That sideboard was designed for worlds, where I (more or less correctly) figured there would be a lot of threshold and goblins due to time/card access issues. I never thought they'd split the preperations off from the matches, so the claim of 'best deck' at the end looks quite aggressive. Overall it went 16-6 in played matches (the last round of worlds involves a lot of concessions due to players' club incentives) and the only player who with multiple losses takes the blame for it himself for such things as never playing a game with the deck before the tournament. There's no question in my mind we had the best list out there for the field we had to face, and I couldn't find a list I actively didn't want to fight. The thing I'd most fear is a version of this or old Landstill that wants the matchup a lot more than I do. As usual, that's trouble.

I never said the word BREAK with regard to Legacy. Everyone here has this image of the arrogant pros, and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm posting this here because I respect The Source and the work done here. The format is fine. If you want to beat this deck, you can. Worst case scenario is that the deck is forced to turn on itself, and it has little margin for error.

Historically, I never thought Landstill was the Best Deck(tm) but I feel it was the correct choice for me at that GenCon; obviously my build was subpar in some ways.

The Cephalid transform idea was included mostly because it was just super cool; hopefully the idea of sideboarding into Breakfast is something that can be used down the line for someone else. It would be a shame if it came up just short, but I think that giving up the Vials for Counterbalances in general is quite strong and I never felt happy with Goyfs in the deck.

On Time Vault, at this point I don't think there's any reason to play it, but the minimalist version is likely the right path if you want to do it anyway. It does give you some advantages, I suppose.

I do think I found some other stuff out about the format, but it was beyond the scope of what I was writing. The general dismissal here of Worlds as being nothing new is sort of right, but I think it's more wrong than right. There was (of course) this build, but also I wouldn't underestimate the changes made to Threshold. The move away from Wasteland, Spell Snare and 2-3 color builds, many of which had red, to 3-4 color builds with an emphasis on Dark Confidant, Counterbalance/Top and the card advantage angle is a big shift because these new builds are devestating in a mirror and force the Threshold deck to move thus shifting its other matchups.

I recently made something very similar, which I was going to enter into the CaNGD contest:

4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Petrified Feild
3 Tolaria West

1 Mana Vortex
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Propaganda
1 Pithing Needle/Seal of Cleansing
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Remand
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sea Drake
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm

It's designed to use both Tolaria West and Enlightened Tutor. One major difference is the lack of the counterbalance engine. It's designed more around Crucible as it's main lock peice.

EDIT: I didn't think of Eternal Dragon, although that does sound like an interesting option.

DOUBLE EDIT: I posted this so that people wouldn't think I'm ripping you off.

[Machinus]

I appreciate the response! Let me address some of my concerns.


The move away from Wasteland, Spell Snare and 2-3 color builds, many of which had red, to 3-4 color builds with an emphasis on Dark Confidant, Counterbalance/Top and the card advantage angle is a big shift because these new builds are devestating in a mirror and force the Threshold deck to move thus shifting its other matchups.

No one plays the two color versions. Gencon being the only officially supported tourmament doesn't mean those decks are representative of the format. I and others have been playing counterbalance/top since before Gencon and have always played at least three colors. As far as Threshold goes there was no innovation.


Everyone here has this image of the arrogant pros, and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm posting this here because I respect The Source and the work done here.

You say that the pros aren't arrogant, but ignoring all non-official tournament results is precisely that. The format isn't Gencon, GPs, and Worlds; in fact, those tournaments are a tiny part of the format, and rarely contribute anything. The decks that most people play at pro tournaments have been around and developed long before they picked them up, and archetypes like Landstill have been explored and redeveloped over hundreds of tournaments. No amount of innate skill can compare to that kind of experience.


Historically, I never thought Landstill was the Best Deck(tm) but I feel it was the correct choice for me at that GenCon; obviously my build was subpar in some ways.

As for Landstill, that deck has had by far the most success with Pernicious Deed. UW compares very poorly to UBGW in tournament success. I'm sure the Landstill players would like to have a more detailed discussion about this.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

TheZvi!

Isnt 4 Top + 4 CB + 4 E- Tutors a little bit too much?

[Silverdragon]

Thanks for clearing some things up, Zvi. Although I'm sure you're not one of those guys who talked about breaking the format there were still some pros who claimed this even though you could tell that they didn't have the slightest clue and that was annoying.

[Nihil Credo]

First, the list is public (you can see it over at mtg.com, for one), so here it is:

1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Eternal Dragon
4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
1 Seal Of Cleansing
2 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Wrath Of God
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aura Of Silence
1 Circle Of Protection: Green
1 Circle Of Protection: Red
1 Moat
1 Rule Of Law
1 Threads Of Disloyalty
2 Hydroblas
2 Pulse Of The Fields
2 Tivadar's Crusade

The list is definitely interesting. While I'm not going to discuss now the overall philosophy behind this Landstill variant - not without trying it out a bit - there's a few card choices I'm curious about.

1) Academy motherfucking Ruins. Every time I play with EE I want this card so bad; winning Crucible fights in the [pseudo]mirror is very important, too. Also, a single Tormod's Crypt sucks; recurring Crypt wins games.
Did you test this card? I would cut a Wasteland for it, since that card is pretty mediocre without Crucible.

2) Did you consider splashing a third colour, thus gaining access to EE@3 (plus some sideboard goodies like Krosan Grip or Extirpate)? The best Landstill player in Germany and probably the whole of Europe (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10820) runs that configuration, and I've been enamoured with it too.

3) This is pretty minor, but I figure Oblivion Ring is close to a strict upgrade to the maindeck Seal of Cleansing.

4) Why not Humility over Moat? It hoses your Dragons, but Moat hoses your Factories, so they're even in that regard. But Humility is vastly better against Survival, Chalice Aggro decks (these are a bye for other Landstill builds, but yours might struggle a bit), CounterSlivers, and Goblins (which have often Siege-Gang Commandered me to death through a Moat). It's also a bit better against Threshold, since it denies them their fliers (Enforcer, Dragon, Sea Drake) and their Confidants - however, I'm guessing that matchup is good enough that the issue isn't very important.

Regardless of which one you favour, I believe the redundant SB slot that you devote to a 2WW creature hoser should be used for the other enchantment, thus giving you more versatility in post-board games.

5) Rule of Law: considering that CounterTop is just as much of an auto-win against storm combo, it seems to me that a SB slot spent on a turn 3 combo hate card is a wasted slot. Was it every useful to you?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Re: Humility - I think a lot of people really overrate this card. For reals. It doesn't win the game. Moat wins the game. Moat means they can't attack. Humility means their attacks are less effective. Goyf can beat you down to 5 and you don't care if you drop Moat. If you drop Humility, you still need to scramble for an answer. I mean, if you get manlands out with Humility, yeah, it's insane. But overall, I'd rather just drop Moat and get fucking beaters out of my fucking face. Go home Goyf. Nobody loves you.

[etrigan]

Did you ever consider playing any Artifact lands, so you could tutor for one if needed?

Did you consider Serenity in the side? It has poor synergy with many of you control pieces, but is absolutely backbreaking in certain matches. Or did you plat on relying on Aura of Silence in those matches?

[kirdape3]

He had Ruins in the earlier versions, but cut it.

[FakeSpam]

And here I was, ready to make a Turboland joke.

(actually not that bad in Legacy)

[hi-val]

Hey Zvi, thanks for coming by and posting! Please don't be a stranger here. I love your sideboard because though it probably isn't right, it seems like a lot of fun to drop COP: Green down and ride it to the win : D

[Cavius The Great]

Hey Zvi, thanks for coming by and posting! Please don't be a stranger here. I love your sideboard because though it probably isn't right, it seems like a lot of fun to drop COP: Green down and ride it to the win : D

Who would of thought COP:Green would be any good? I remember back in the day they were the worse ones. Go figure.

[FoolofaTook]

The list Zvi presented is a great list in the hands of a great player and weakens considerably, like most varied option lists, when the quality of the player decreases.

I would never use a control list with that many tutors and non-permanent solutions because it would take extraordinary calls on the mulligans to survive at a high level. I have no doubt that Zvi can make those calls fairly easily, however I would be at sea too often to be comfortable with the deck.

[Tacosnape]

It's worth noting that as for 4 Top/CBL/E-Tute being too much, Enlightened Tutor works much like Sensei's Divining Top in that it sets whatever you need on top of your library to make Counterbalance do its thing. So it isn't just for digging up Counterbalance and toolbox things.

[BreathWeapon]

Eh, I give it props for making use of a 4cc lock piece in an environment where the one MD answer to it is an Engineered Explosives in a 3c deck, i.e non existent. Moat and Humility are underrated, that's for sure, but I think the whole Enlightened Tutor tool box should just be dropped for Intuition, Life from the Loam, Cephalid Coliseum and friends. You can cut the garbage like Crucible of Worlds and Standstill and move their functions into the land slots while adding Nantuko Monastery, Gigapede and Krosan Grip to the mix.

I'm in the Humility camp to, just say no to infinite, hasty Sky Hussars.

[zulander]

My main concern with this deck is the blue card count. I would think a dedicated control deck would want to run more than 17 blue cards (including force) to make sure they are always able to pitch something to force.
To help add blue cards to the deck I would add +2 propaganda and remove a Sensei's top and 1 moat. I'd also add the third propaganda to the board.

[Illissius]

Thanks for dropping by. Many of my other questions have already been asked... the remaining ones:

- What are your thoughts about Standstill? Why did you run 2, rather than 0 or 4?
- Vedalken Shackles?
- Was a single Crypt (plus Tutors) as the sum total of your graveyard hate ever problematic?
- Were you ever tempted to go four colors so you could run Deeds with your Tutors? I realize Deed doesn't have perfect synergy with Counterbalance on the board, but it's a very powerful card nonetheless. (And the times when you have CounterTop out and still need to Deed may be few -- I played Chalice in a Ubg build of Landstill once and it was quite strong).

[FoolofaTook]

It's worth noting that as for 4 Top/CBL/E-Tute being too much, Enlightened Tutor works much like Sensei's Divining Top in that it sets whatever you need on top of your library to make Counterbalance do its thing. So it isn't just for digging up Counterbalance and toolbox things.

That is a very good point given that there are 3cc and 4cc artifacts and enchantments available in the list.

I was thinking more along the lines of what somebody does when they are looking at an opening hand of Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Enlightened Tutor, Counterbalance, Island, Mishra's Factory, Wasteland?

Could be a great draw or could be DoA depending on what the opponent has in hand, particularly if the opponent is running Wasteland as well.

[Ewokslayer]

That is a very good point given that there are 3cc and 4cc artifacts and enchantments available in the list.

I was thinking more along the lines of what somebody does when they are looking at an opening hand of Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Enlightened Tutor, Counterbalance, Island, Mishra's Factory, Wasteland?

Could be a great draw or could be DoA depending on what the opponent has in hand, particularly if the opponent is running Wasteland as well.

I am pretty sure that hand is ass since you can't cast anything in the hand outside of Force.

Totally off-topic, so I'll just use Ewok's post, but you're looking at a mulligan there, FoolofaTook. - Bardo

[FoolofaTook]

Not to push this farther than it should go, although I think it very much is on-topic about the strength of Zvi's build, but what about if you are in the late rounds of a tourney, say 6th roundish, and you draw that hand but with a Tundra instead of an Island?

You've got a very strong deck opposite you, although you don't know what it is yet, and a single Wasteland threatens to shut you down completely.

My guess is a very strong control player knows instinctively what can be played as soon as he glances at it, whereas most of us are in trouble even on what look like strong draws.

[Nightmare]

Not to push this farther than it should go, although I think it very much is on-topic about the strength of Zvi's build, but what about if you are in the late rounds of a tourney, say 6th roundish, and you draw that hand but with a Tundra instead of an Island?

Lead with Factory? Assuming you're in fear of Wasteland, you can sit on your Tundra for three turns, waiting for a more stable manasource. You still have FoW. (Note that the Counterbalance is effectively a blank blue card at this point - you can't worry about trying to play it when it's part of your only line of defense.)

[FoolofaTook]

Lead with Factory? Assuming you're in fear of Wasteland, you can sit on your Tundra for three turns, waiting for a more stable manasource. You still have FoW. (Note that the Counterbalance is effectively a blank blue card at this point - you can't worry about trying to play it when it's part of your only line of defense.)

You may very well be right, however without Brainstorm in the opening hand or a second blue source I'd look at that hand as very suspicious and not know what to do with it.

I agree on Counterbalance being a blank, however how many players would be thinking: drop the Tundra turn one and then tutor for Top on opponent's end-phase?

Control decks that rely on putting solutions into play, as opposed to locking down the opponent, are just nerve-wracking to play after you're past the first three rounds or so of dreck in a tournament.

[Nightmare]

You may very well be right, however without Brainstorm in the opening hand or a second blue source I'd look at that hand as very suspicious and not know what to do with it.

I agree on Counterbalance being a blank, however how many players would be thinking: drop the Tundra turn one and then tutor for Top on opponent's end-phase?

Control decks that rely on putting solutions into play, as opposed to locking down the opponent, are just nerve-wracking to play after you're past the first three rounds or so of dreck in a tournament.Without a fetchland, tutoring up Top is almost definitely the wrong play.

[Tacosnape]

I wouldn't even lead with the Tundra if I had it. I'd lead with the Wasteland, assuming my opponent didn't know what I was playing. Leading "Wasteland, Go." doesn't tell your opponent what you're playing. I would not be desperately looking to get that Counterbalance into play based on not having any other fuel for the Force.

Also, on the draw, I'm not entirely sure I agree with the mulligan logic of the Island/Factory/Wasteland hand. You've got three land drops and a Force, and seventeen different ways to hit a Tundra counting the SDT's and Brainstorms. This isn't counting the additional six basics you have, and drawing a Plains would open up a large portion of your hand. So that's 19 pretty solid outs. I might keep that based on the fact that if you hit a Tundra or a Plains, it becomes a pretty solid hand.

On the play, however, I'd throw it back.

[zulander]

I'd throw it back either way. 60 - 7(opening hand) = 53 + for the draw = 52. 52 - 19 (if your math was correct) = 33 not solid outs. 19 or 33, I think I'll take my chances with 6 (7 if you're on the draw) new cards.


Also, can we stop derailing with hypothetical's in the thread. Let's try to stay on topic.

[BreathWeapon]

First off, I was wrong about cutting Enlightened Tutor, Counterbalance in control blows with out that card assembling the combo or serving as a Counter Spell. On to something constructive, is there a reason the deck runs less than 8 blue Fetchlands? The Brainstorms and Sensei's Divining Tops were lacking, even with Enlightened Tutor as a shuffle effect.

[Freshrock]

Dude, you forgot Tarmogoyf in your list.

jk, but that is seriously one sick deck. I admire how you fit in so many shuffle effects into one deck to abuse the counterbalance-top engine. The only thing that I could really use a little help with is understanding your sideboard. It seems like sphere of law would have been a much better card in the goblins matchup rather than circle of protection red, but I'm not the pro-player here so I'm probably wrong =D, just a little n00b here trying to learn the kinks of the game.

thanks in advanced, your most honorablenss.

[Cavius The Great]

Everyone here has this image of the arrogant pros

Most Magic pros are arrogant. The majority of them don't even PM me back.

[Ewokslayer]

Most Magic pros are arrogant. The majority of them don't even PM me back.

Yeah, How dare they not spend their free time surfing all the various Magic Websites responding to random people's messages!
The Nerve!

[nitewolf9]

Yeah, How dare they not spend their free time surfing all the various Magic Websites responding to random people's messages!
The Nerve!

They probably don't have time to do this, and I think it's rather rude to criticize them for not doing so.

[Bovinious]

What makes me mad is when pros build bad decks that are pretty much circa 2003, claim it was the best deck for an event...yeah...UW Landstill list without a playset of Standstills makes me /shiver.

[zulander]

It seems like sphere of law would have been a much better card in the goblins matchup rather than circle of protection red, but I'm not the pro-player here so I'm probably wrong =D
Come on... don't be that guy.

While I agree Sphere of Law is sick against goblins CoP red is only 2 mana, therefore I think he played that instead because of goblins ability to disrupt your manabase. I still would have used sphere over CoP red though.



What makes me mad is when pros build bad decks that are pretty much circa 2003, claim it was the best deck for an event...yeah...UW Landstill list without a playset of Standstills makes me /shiver.

I agree to an extent with your concept of "Man, he's a Pro. I want to sit on his..." However the deck does have a couple of cool concepts in it. I think I'd prefer something a little less control though but that's just my taste.

[FoolofaTook]

What makes me mad is when pros build bad decks that are pretty much circa 2003, claim it was the best deck for an event...yeah...UW Landstill list without a playset of Standstills makes me /shiver.

Counterbalance was printed in 2006?

That seems to be the card that the list is most centered around.

[TeenieBopper]

Most Magic pros are arrogant. The majority of them don't even PM me back.

If it makes you feel any better, if random noobs PM'ed me out of the blue, I'd ignore them too.

[Nihil Credo]

Most Magic pros are arrogant. The majority of them don't even PM me back.
"The majority of"? How many pros did you PM?

I've had maybe a half dozen forum discussions with pros, on SCG/MTG feedback pages. They were certainly more pleasant to talk to than the average forum dweller.

[Bovinious]

Counterbalance was printed in 2006?

That seems to be the card that the list is most centered around.

Why is everyone creaming their pants about Counterbalance now? Its like its the new Tarmogoyf or something...

The point is the list played 4 E Tutor, only 2 Standstills, and like 7 basic lands...

[Adan]

I lol'd, UW Landstill is the slowest and worst Landstill variant you could ever play nowadays since the meta has gotten WAY faster that it was in two-thousand and...5? A 4/4 split is also OVERKILL like hell and so fucking slow that you sometimes don't even want it against some matchups.

It also lacks the capability to apply pressure. Also, running Counterbalance and Explosives isn't anything new if you look at my UR Landstill list from the last Source Tourney. Nothing innovative. It's really won't break Legacy.

And Enlightened Tutor always means carddisadvantage. That's why no-one plays Tutor-Landstill anymore here in Germany.

[Shtriga]

the point of tutor was to act as a virtual counterspell. failing a top activation, you tutor to get a proper cc card on top. or it just gets you the combo or other stuff like 1 of moat

it's still not my sort of deck, I threw away the UW control archetype completely ever since playing humility/orim's prayer for a month made me quit magic (I was young and dumb)

[etrigan]

I lol'd, UW Landstill is the slowest and worst Landstill variant you could ever play nowadays

Yeah, it sucks. It only went 4-1 against the best players in the world.

Also, it's not Landstill, it's UW control. It's not trying to play a Standstill and beat down with lands. Silver bullets and Eternal Dragon are the gameplan.

[zulander]

Yeah, it sucks. It only went 4-1 against the best Standard/Limited players in the world.

Fixed.

I get your point though, it put up good numbers, gotta give props where props due.

[kirdape3]

No, the best players. If you think that the best Eternal players can do more than hold their own (at best, mind you) against these players, you're mistaken.

[Mental]

No, the best players. If you think that the best Eternal players can do more than hold their own (at best, mind you) against these players, you're mistaken.

Agreed, just look at how Smemmen, who has won tons and tons of tournaments, did at the invitational playing a format he has ruled for the past years (excuse me if I'm exaggerating).

[Deep6er]

Actually, in our defense, I've played against Alex Liebermann, and some other big name pros (who's names escape me at the moment) like Eugene Levin, and defeated them handily. Fuck man, even CALOSSO beat Gerard Fabiano... or possibly some other pro. I hardly remember his stories anyway. Point is, it's not like they're fucking juggernauts who destroy all without pro points in their way. They're normal people who have had some success at the hobby that they've chosen to do well in, combined with some natural talent. Quit sucking their dicks.

[FoolofaTook]

Actually, in our defense, I've played against Alex Liebermann, and some other big name pros (who's names escape me at the moment) like Eugene Levin, and defeated them handily. Fuck man, even CALOSSO beat Gerard Fabiano... or possibly some other pro. I hardly remember his stories anyway. Point is, it's not like they're fucking juggernauts who destroy all without pro points in their way. They're normal people who have had some success at the hobby that they've chosen to do well in, combined with some natural talent. Quit sucking their dicks.

They're much more numerous than Eternal players. That argues that with a larger population the extremes at the top end are also likely to be more numerous.

I'd expect that the top Eternal players could compete very well with the top Standard players, however I'd also expect there to be a lot more of the latter than the former.

[FoolofaTook]

the point of tutor was to act as a virtual counterspell. failing a top activation, you tutor to get a proper cc card on top. or it just gets you the combo or other stuff like 1 of moat

it's still not my sort of deck, I threw away the UW control archetype completely ever since playing humility/orim's prayer for a month made me quit magic (I was young and dumb)

The more I look at his list the stronger it looks, however it's not a list I'd be really happy playing in a 5+ round swiss format.

[FoolofaTook]

Why is everyone creaming their pants about Counterbalance now? Its like its the new Tarmogoyf or something...

The point is the list played 4 E Tutor, only 2 Standstills, and like 7 basic lands...

The thing about Counterbalance in that list is that there are so many cards it works with. 4 Tops, 4 E. Tutors, 4 Brainstorm and the sac lands. Then you have several one-of's that would be just a trivial effect in a normal deck because of their random appearances in play, except that the tutors and the reshuffle effects allow them to be often played in the right circumstances.

Recurring Wasteland or Mishra's can be absolutely dominant against some decks and just suck ass against others. Having just 1 Crucible of Worlds in the deck but 5 ways to get it easily makes it dominant when it applies and ducks it when it doesn't. Same story for Moat, which can kill you or the other player when it's a main feature of the deck.

It's just a very elegant solution that cuts the middle excellently against 90% of the meta right now. Particularly given the 11 hard counters after Counterbalance is taken into account.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Actually, in our defense, I've played against Alex Liebermann, and some other big name pros (who's names escape me at the moment) like Eugene Levin, and defeated them handily. Fuck man, even CALOSSO beat Gerard Fabiano... or possibly some other pro. I hardly remember his stories anyway. Point is, it's not like they're fucking juggernauts who destroy all without pro points in their way. They're normal people who have had some success at the hobby that they've chosen to do well in, combined with some natural talent.

QFT.


Quit sucking their dicks

QFFT.

It's like every time pros are the topic, half the people go into fellatio mode, and the other half trash talk people they've never met.

[kirdape3]

And quit thinking that a Hall of Famer is somehow an idiot for not playing four copies of a situational card in his deck.

[Machinus]

No, the best players. If you think that the best Eternal players can do more than hold their own (at best, mind you) against these players, you're mistaken.

Pro players can't hope to make the best plays in a format they don't understand against decks they have never seen before. It doesn't matter how talented you are, if you aren't familiar with the format you aren't going to beat people who are.

The pros who top8ed GPs were among the rare ones who actually tested and practiced this format. The majority of them don't, and some of them even like to brag about how little time they spent preparing. But there is no way for any pro player to accumulate the intution that many Legacy veterans have, and I think this is relevant versus a pros lack of mistakes and/or bluffing.

[kirdape3]

Sadin literally had no idea on how his deck worked until somebody made him play out the combo. Then, he won the tournament. Must, is, etc.

If we're so good, why are we playing Legacy?

[FoolofaTook]

If we're so good, why are we playing Legacy?

Because it's a lot more fun to be able to build decks with most of the cards you own?

[Nihil Credo]

Pro players can't hope to make the best plays in a format they don't understand against decks they have never seen before. It doesn't matter how talented you are, if you aren't familiar with the format you aren't going to beat people who are.
I agree here. Hell, other than the HoFers and a few others, most pros have probably never played with or against StP, FoW, Ritual, or High Tide.

But once the experience barrier is removed - such as in the event of a Legacy PT - watch the hell out. The sort of play-by-play analysis I see in high-level Block, Standard and Extended games is far above what I see in Legacy.

[FoolofaTook]

I agree here. Hell, other than the HoFers and a few others, most pros have probably never played with or against StP, FoW, Ritual, or High Tide.

But once the experience barrier is removed - such as in the event of a Legacy PT - watch the hell out. The sort of play-by-play analysis I see in high-level Block, Standard and Extended games is far above what I see in Legacy.

And Zvi goes back to the single format, although I'm not sure he had power cards. He was always the smartest guy in the room.

[hi-val]

Some people, it seems, consider that the pros have never tested Legacy before. This just doesn't make sense for a lot of the cases. We've had 3 Legacy GPs in recent memory with plenty of pros dilligently testing for it. Furthermore, compare Legacy at the moment to where it was at Philly. We're not talking complete shakeups of the format. The preparation that went into previous GPs could certainly aggregate and result in better play.

[TheMightyQuinn]

If we're so good, why are we playing Legacy?

Because Legacy is what we're good at? No one made the claim that we're better than the pros at Standard or Limited. Legacy is our home turf; we have a more thorough understanding of the format; therefore, we're bound to have the upper hand in certain scenarios.

[Bovinious]

The thing about Counterbalance in that list is that there are so many cards it works with. 4 Tops, 4 E. Tutors, 4 Brainstorm and the sac lands...

This brings up another point, the deck only ran 5 sac lands, apparently basic lands are somehow not awful...

[Ch@os]

Also, running Counterbalance and Explosives isn't anything new if you look at my UR Landstill list from the last Source Tourney. Nothing innovative. It's really won't break Legacy.

And Enlightened Tutor always means carddisadvantage. That's why no-one plays Tutor-Landstill anymore here in Germany.

I played a similar list last tournament in Dülmen. 2. place (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2007-12-T15.html) 7/6/0/0, and thats germany!
The list ran pretty well. Now i just added a Hoofprint to serach with the Tutor.

U/R Landstill Lista are outdatet, and the U/G/W/B lists are too susceptible to Wasteland or other Landdestruction.

When i read some posts i think that many people never played U/W LS before and just talking.

[Adan]

Yeah, it sucks. It only went 4-1 against the best players in the world.

Also, it's not Landstill, it's UW control. It's not trying to play a Standstill and beat down with lands. Silver bullets and Eternal Dragon are the gameplan.

That's exactly what UW Landstill did all the time until now. O.o

And those players were Standard/Limited Players which didn't have any experience in Legacy so far. That's why a lot of people have beaten Pro Players at the Gunslinging and so on...

And @ Cha@s: I HAVE played UW landstill before and found it too slow. Hoofprints are strong, but also slow. And that's why I claim UWb Cunning Landstill to be the best variant at the moment, because it has got the flexibility of UR Landstill without losing it's lategame-strenght. Enlightnened Tutor itself gives you more flexibility, but it still means carddisadvantage because you have to "skip" one draw phase to turn the tutor into the card you wanted.

My UR Landstill list is out-dated, yes, but it proves that this Landstill isn't anything innovative. And it's way not the best deck in the format.

[Ewokslayer]

This brings up another point, the deck only ran 5 sac lands, apparently basic lands are somehow not awful...

Basic Lands make Magus of the Moon sad in the pants.

[FakeSpam]

Basic Lands make Magus of the Moon sad in the pants.

Are those moon-pants?

[Zach Tartell]

Are those moon-pants?

Astronaut pants. Because his ass is out of this world.

[FoolofaTook]

And @ Cha@s: I HAVE played UW landstill before and found it too slow. Hoofprints are strong, but also slow.

Hoofprints is what I was thinking you'd add to that build to make it stronger. 4/4 flyers and Moat is a nice combination.


Enlightnened Tutor itself gives you more flexibility, but it still means carddisadvantage because you have to "skip" one draw phase to turn the tutor into the card you wanted.

Enlightened Tutor is a hard counter once Counterbalance is in play and it also pulls up exactly what you need before then. It looks pretty strong to me in that deck even with the -1 cantrip effect.


And it's way not the best deck in the format.

It may be the best UW control deck in the format though, which would be a significant innovation given that UW control is generally weak at the moment.

[mackaber]

Reading all this yaking about pros always makes me sick. Being a 'pro' player myself (at least by wizards definition) and knowing quite a number of Level 3 plus mages personally and also being a Legacy player by heart I'd really like to try and clear up some of the misconceptions many of the more casually oriented people around here seem to have. I'll just try to takle a few of the most common statements i come across on these boards (all of which have a grain of truth attatched).
a) All pros are arrogant: Pro players (and when I use the term I do not mean those people who have pro points on their resume but those who are actually level 3 pros or better) are good at magic. They are in the top 0,1 percentile of those playing this game. Some get there through inate talent, many by dedicating their life to playing magic and most through a combination of both. Thus most pros are of the perception that they are better at magic than others (which usually is true) this leads many pros to disregard one of the golden rules of magic that is always playtest the list as posted first, cause whoever played it has more experience than you and also to disregard advice of 'inferior' players (smart pros of course don't do this and instead ask inferior players who are more knowledgable about formats). Another aspect of the 'pro lifestyle' is that many are actually by virtue of dedicating their life to magic loosers at life. This leads to them seeking recognition within the magic community. Those who are socially inept (guess why their playing magic eye) don't necesarily become more sociable when they receive recognition through their accomplishments and thus often don't behave appropriately once they do post on mesage boards such as this one. So yeah there are pros who are arrogant (pity them) but for christ sake don't generalize.
b) Ohh your a pro (cumslurping sound) you must be right. There seems to be something in human nature telling people to submit themselves to those of higher station. Well that's all fine and dandy but theres no reason to be doing it all day and a healthy ego can help prevent beeing a spineless slimeworm. Being good at Legacy and saying so won't hurt either.As I have mentioned chances are good that pros are better at magic than your average Legacy player but that does not make his or her arguments inherently better or worse than those of someone else.
c) I beat a pro once blablabla. Magic is a game of luck and skill (and a lot of skill can be replaced by thorough preperation) so yeah it's completly plausible for an inferior player to beat a better player through pure luck or by playing to his own strengths (e.g. playing Legacy, preferring control over combo etc.). The only way you can't ever beat another player is if you already gave up mentally before the match. I believe that playskill can only give you about 20% edge against a solid player (who knows the rules an knows how to use his dec). The best players on the pro tour only have win percentages of a little over 60% at the PT and GP level so luck is always a factor. Also I'm pretty sure there are Legacy players out there who are better at magic (and not only legacy) than a number of pros currently on the gravy train but on a whole the level of competion at legacy events is much lower than at PTQs or Grand Prixs.
d) Zvi is a fucking genius (this can be taken literally). And the fact that he came here to talk with the experts about this format and his dec (which admitedly looks very solid and put up excellent results) should be proof enough that he's still a humble guy (cause guess who ain't playing any legacy any time in the near future? It ain't you it ain't me it's Zvi). But I don't think Zvi got himself a Source acount to listen to rants about pro player or his person but to critically discuss the game he loves and the dec he built so why don't we do just that shall we?
e) I like the dec but I have not tested it yet. I see a number of problems most of which have been mentioned. One thing that has not been talked about is the number of blue mana sources. If you realisticly want to set up CBtop by turn 3 (which this dec really wants to do with it's 4/4/4 setup) it seems to me that 14 blue sources are way too little. An obvious fix is adding more fetches. Another idea could be removing the wastelands since the wasteland lock seems sort of redundant with CBtop. What do the landstill experts have to say about this?

[Bovinious]

@ mackaber:

I concur with you on all of a), b), and c) and most of d) and e). The main thing I had a problem with was not that Zvi came here to post and discuss his list I thought that was really cool, it was that this list was hailed by him and many people on here as actually really good when I feel it is just really bad. But thats just me and I could be wrong, Im generally very intolerant of new decks especially when they involve Forest or Plains (Survival, Aluren, Rifter, UW whatever this is).

[Sims]

Im generally very intolerant of new decks especially when they involve Forest or Plains (Survival, Aluren, Rifter, UW whatever this is).

Generally speaking, while intolerant you may be, actually testing and playing the deck is a better way of determining viability, yes? I know a few people when they first looked at it assumed landstill with only 2 standstills, but after giving it a few test runs (and I am a horrid control player, btw), I can definitely appreciate the raw power in options and potential the build has. That said, I don't think I have the mental capacity to play this particular build into the late stages of a tournament. But that's just more my mental gearing than anything else, the deck has a lot of choices and my brain wouldn't be able to calculate them all and make an optimal play and i'd likely be punting away games.

In the hands of someone who is more knowledgable and capable playing this style of control, I can see this deck or a very similar list shredding people at the top tables.

[Tao]

Thanks for the good post, mackaber. Overall the list is nothing really new, but very good and focussed. Of course Pros can't "break" the Format because it is already broken. What they can do is adding good lists like Zvi's, so thanks for shwoing up here.

to e)
- it is not only 14 blue sources like 14 black sources for turn 2 hymn to tourach. It is 14 Blue Sources + Brainstorm + Top. And you may have forgot the Eternal Dragon. Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 Dragon for Tundra will also set up CB/ Top by turn 3.

[Bovinious]

Generally speaking, while intolerant you may be, actually testing and playing the deck is a better way of determining viability, yes? I know a few people when they first looked at it assumed landstill with only 2 standstills, but after giving it a few test runs (and I am a horrid control player, btw), I can definitely appreciate the raw power in options and potential the build has. That said, I don't think I have the mental capacity to play this particular build into the late stages of a tournament. But that's just more my mental gearing than anything else, the deck has a lot of choices and my brain wouldn't be able to calculate them all and make an optimal play and i'd likely be punting away games.

In the hands of someone who is more knowledgable and capable playing this style of control, I can see this deck or a very similar list shredding people at the top tables.

You dont always need to test a list to know whether or not its good, I wouldnt test 36 Relentless rats 24 swamp .dec and know its awful, thats the same way I feel about Aluren decks, most Survival decks, and offbeat control decks like this, for example. At least I admit my intolerance unlike many people on this board who to me seem worse than me in that respect.

[Sims]

You dont always need to test a list to know whether or not its good, I wouldnt test 36 Relentless rats 24 swamp .dec and know its awful, thats the same way I feel about Aluren decks, most Survival decks, and offbeat control decks like this, for example. At least I admit my intolerance unlike many people on this board who to me seem worse than me in that respect.

Well that example goes without saying, but when it comes to things that are a bit more intricate than RelentlessRat.Dec_01, sometimes it takes more than just a look over the list to really get an appreciation for what a deck can do, bias or no. That's all I'm saying. I do have preconcieved wariness for certain styles of decks and automatically compare them to decks that I feel might do the same job better, but at least giving those decks a couple of test games doesn't hurt. You may even end up being surprised by the outcome.

No flames intended, just reiterating... Sometimes it's not so cut and dry.

[Tao]

You dont always need to test a list to know whether or not its good, I wouldnt test 36 Relentless rats 24 swamp .dec and know its awful, thats the same way I feel about Aluren decks, most Survival decks, and offbeat control decks like this, for example. At least I admit my intolerance unlike many people on this board who to me seem worse than me in that respect.

Intolerance is the wrong word here. Ignorance and stupidity are more precise.

[FoolofaTook]

Generally speaking, while intolerant you may be, actually testing and playing the deck is a better way of determining viability, yes? I know a few people when they first looked at it assumed landstill with only 2 standstills, but after giving it a few test runs (and I am a horrid control player, btw), I can definitely appreciate the raw power in options and potential the build has. That said, I don't think I have the mental capacity to play this particular build into the late stages of a tournament. But that's just more my mental gearing than anything else, the deck has a lot of choices and my brain wouldn't be able to calculate them all and make an optimal play and i'd likely be punting away games.

In the hands of someone who is more knowledgable and capable playing this style of control, I can see this deck or a very similar list shredding people at the top tables.

This is basically my argument for and against the deck in a nutshell. It looks like a very strong list in the hands of a player with the experience and stamina to play it. I have neither and would be a limp noodle by the third round that was headed for time.

@mackaber: the Wasteland/Crucible soft lock really hurts some decks and it's another effect that can really dick with the control mirror. I'm guessing that Zvi wanted all the weapons he could get against control.

[Bovinious]

Intolerance is the wrong word here. Ignorance and stupidity are more precise.

No, intolerance is correct. I am not ignorant because I realize I am this way, and I am not stupid either. Not to sound like a xenophobic asshole or anything, but dont try to correct someone whose sole and native language is English, especially when you are wrong about both what is descriptive of the situation and what I meant to say. In short, dont correct my English and I wont correct your German, especially when I'm clearly correct and your only trying to flame me by taking advantage of my honesty.

[Tao]

I was not correcting your English. I know that my English is by far not good enough for that. I just don't agree that intolerance is an acceptable reason for thinking that a certain Magic deck is bad.

Some players hate the Power 9, so they are intolerant against powered T1 decks. But, unless they are stupid or ignorant, they would not go and call it a "bad" deck after they lost against it. They'd call it unfair, not fun to play or whatever they don't like about it, but only the stupid and ignorant people will still call it a bad deck.

Calling a deck "bad" means that it is not competitive in the Meta, that is not winning.

You did the same. You called decks like Aluren, Survival or Landstill "not competive" or "not winning" ("awful / not good; like Relentless Rats.dec not even worth testing ") despite the fact that these decks are Top-8ing. That shows your lack of knowledge about these decks.

[Volt]

.

[frogboy]

What Tao said. Btw, please change that stupid avatar, Bovinious. It's almost as immature and annoying as the content of your posts.

Taken care of.

[Adan]

Taken care of.

LOLCATS FTW.! kthxbye!

But well, I know that deck is strong, but for my part, I don't really like the concept. Hoofprints are strong, indeed. I would like that list more if you cut 1 Top and 1 Counterbalance for 2 Hoofprints. But it's still slowwwwww imo. But I never said it's bad, I just said that there are better variants. And that's only my objective opinion. But I agree that that build is superior to my UR Landstill List since it has got efficient removal and Moat to stall around. In the past I thought about Solitary Confinement, but there was no playable drawengine to support it.

[Peter_Rotten]

Is thread about anything of any relevance anymore?


No, intolerance is correct. I am not ignorant because I realize I am this way, and I am not stupid either. Not to sound like a xenophobic asshole or anything, but dont try to correct someone whose sole and native language is English, especially when you are wrong about both what is descriptive of the situation and what I meant to say. In short, dont correct my English and I wont correct your German, especially when I'm clearly correct and your only trying to flame me by taking advantage of my honesty.

Before you make a further fool of yourself, why don't you cut and paste this post into Microsoft word? Then feel free to cut and paste any of Tao's recent posts from this thread. Guess which one has more red and green than the average Christmas tree?

[Bardo]

Necro out of the ass, but this article is free now. I read parts I - III earlier and am digging part IV (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15176.html) (i.e. the Legact one) right now.

<-- Doesn't have SCG Premium either.

[FoolofaTook]

It's a very strong and resilient control deck. I'm not quite sure what it does against a deck like Fetchland Tendrils, particularly after the Abeyances come in game 2.