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ACME_Myst
12-19-2007, 08:22 PM
About me
First off, let me tell you something about myself.
I’m a hardcore Magic player, and have been in the game for almost ten years now. In the last couple of years my level of play has gone up a lot, going from casual to, in my feeling, well above average tournament level. I spend many hours, nearly every day, thinking, reading, and playing Magic. I tell you this not to stroke my own ego, but rather because I want you to understand what kind of player I am, because of the following problem.
You see, unlike some respected members here on these boards, my name is not widely known. And therein lies a problem. Because, when an unknown player posts a new decklist, it is almost always met with lots of (negative) critique, suggestions that don’t work, and ultimately, the thread disappears somewhere to page 4 and beyond, never to be seen again.
When a known player however posts a list, it has a far better chance of being accepted by the community, and becoming an established deck.
The deck I’m going to talk about in this post is, if I may say so, a very good one. Therefore it would be a shame to see it fall off these boards, and not getting the attention I think it deserves. This is why I wrote this paragraph. I ask you to read this primer, ignoring the fact that you do not know me, and that I do not have 500+ posts on these boards. Give this deck a chance, and you will find that it is worth your time.

Wild Zombies, historically
There, with all that sentimental talk out of the way, lets get on with the deck itself. About 9 months ago, I already posted a primer about this deck, though that version is very much outdated. It can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5409.

Let me copy-paste some history from the old thread:

The original version of the deck was an old (2001) extended build.
Some information about this deck can be found http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=GPLV01%5C792ymg .

In 2005, Andrew Oyen placed 1st at a Vintage tournament, winning a mox ruby. His report and decklist can be found http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10789.html .

Now, my team has spend the last 9 months perfecting and updating the list. What I’m going to show to you now is the result of nearly a year’s work of development. We believe this build to be very close to optimal.

The decklist

// Lands (22)
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Tranquil Thicket

// Beats (17)
4 Zombie Infestation
2 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Nimble Mongoose

// Disruption (11)
3 Duress
4 Terminate
1 Smother
3 Firestorm

// Utility (10)
3 Life from the Loam
2 Anger
1 Genesis
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate

Card explanations

Lands
This part is pretty straightforward. Duals and fetches, and some basics.
Tranquil Thicket for Loam draw engine, and Barbarian Ring for recurrable reach.

Beats
Here is what really makes this deck so powerful. Card by card:

- Zombie Infestation. The decks namesake, and completely broken if left unchecked. When the deck gets going, you make on average 3-4 hasted tokens a turn. This card can play the control role, chumpblocking Goyfs all day long, as well as the aggro mode.

- Wild Mongrel. Can grow very large with Loam and Squee. It’s also an impressive tag-team with the next card on the list:

- Tarmogoyf. We all know why this card is so good.

- Basking Rootwalla. Wild Mongrels and Zombie Infestations best friend.

- Nimble Mongoose. One of the best one drop creatures in the format.


Disruption
Notice that this package is very much focussed against creature heavy decks. If your meta consists of a crapton of combo, I suggest changing these slots, or better yet, find another deck to play.

- Duress. We are still unclear if Thoughtseize is the better choice, though we are sticking with Duress for now. Everybody knows the purpose of this card.

- Terminate + Smother. These hit probably over 90% of the creatures played in this format. Note the singleton Smother is not random, but rather functions as the 5th Terminate here. These cards are golden in most matchups, and we have considered upping the count to 6. The 5th Terminate (Smother), is however a meta slot. I do suggest not taking it out though, with all the Goyfs running around you will almost always have a target.

- Firestorm. In my opinion, one of the most underplayed cards in Legacy, though I can see that not many decks can support it. It’s one of the most powerfull cards in the deck, It functions as a sweeper that does damage to the dome, but can also be used as a finisher for 5+ damage in some situations.

Utility
This is pretty straightforward stuff, but I’ll explain it anyway.

- Life from the Loam. Makes landdrops, fills your hand for ZI / Mongrel, draws cards, and fills graveyard with goodies. Everything you want in a single card. Note that we only play 3, because testing showed that the fourth one was almost always redundant.

- Anger. This card is a beast. It speeds the deck up by at least 2 turns, and we would play more if it actually did something in multiples.

- Genesis. Gives the deck some extra late-game power, should it get to that. I’ve heard that recurring hasty Goyfs is pretty good. This is the second metagame slot in the deck.

- Squee, Goblin Nabob. This card basically does three things:
-It’s broken with Zombie Infestation and Mongrel.
-It’s redundant on Loam, in case either get’s Extirpated.
-It chumpblocks nearly every creature in the format, for all eternity.
I guess the flavor text on the Tenth edition one says it best.

Sideboard
Obviously, sideboards are never set in stone, but this is the one we are currently running for our meta. Leylines and Chalice are almost always in there though.

About the deck

The strong points
Well, first off, its a blast to play. Making a shitload of hasty zombie tokens each turn is just plain fun. Second, it has good matchups against some of the most played decks in the format, as I will explain later.
Also, the deck can play both control and aggro fairly well, although it’s of course better at the last one. Finally, it has immense threat diversity, meaning that a single (or even multiple) Extirpates or similiar effects do not harm this deck too much.

The weak points
Yes, of course there are downsides to this deck. I will eleborate more on these than on the strong points, since I feel the strong ones kind of speak for themselves.

First, the deck is, to an extent, graveyard based. This of course makes it vulnerable to some widely played cards like Extirpate, Leyline and Crypt. The good news is however, that like I said, Extirpate doesn’t hit the deck too hard. If they hit Loam, you still have Squee, and vice versa. If they hit Infestation, you still have Mongrel and Goyf.
Tormod’s Crypt isn’t that bad, since it only takes out Loam and Squee.
Leyline is the real bitch, although you still have your opponent’s graveyard to feed your Goyf on. Also, since this card is usually only encountered post-board, you probably (at least in game three) have Grips to get rid of it.

Second, as you may have noticed, the 2 CC slot is filled to the brim. The upside to this is that you can operate on little mana, and that you are very explosive. The downside however, is that you are vulnerable to popular cards like Spell Snare, Counterbalance, and Chalice @ 2.

Third, the best aggresive card in the deck is ZI. This gets hit by Pithing Needle, and other things like that. The good news is that you still have a lot of other beaters to back it up.

Finally, due to lack of counters and / or massive discard, this deck sucks against combo. It’s a tradeoff we had to make, so we suggest not running this deck in a field full of combo.

Matchups, the good, the bad, and the ugly
Here’s some global matchup statistics and explanations. We don’t have actual percentages, but you should get the general idea.

Goblins Extremely Favorable
Really, this matchup is a joke. If you read the reference to the old thread, you will see that it was posted there as unfavorable. This list does not suffer from the same problem. Unless they go completely broken, and you draw absolutely nothing, you win this.
On the draw, you have 10 answers to turn one Lackey. On the play, you have 25. That’s one of the upsides of having an overpopulated 2CC slot.
My teammates and I have yet to lose a single game in a tournament to Goblins.

Affinity Extremely Favorable
See goblins, except they can’t topdeck into Ringleader / SGC.

Burn Favorable
You should win this, if you don’t draw complete crap. Fetch basics to not suddenly die to PoP. Post board, bring in Chalice to set @ 1.

Pikula / Homebrew variants Favorable
This was the reason why this deck was developed in the first place, since our meta at the time was infested with Deadguy variants. It comes down to their discard being useless, their landdestruction being useless, and your creatures being bigger than theirs.
Note: Descendant variant Unfavorable
Though the last time I played against this variant was pre-Goyf, it was a bitch. You couldn’t race it’s lifegain, and Descendant was usually bigger than your creatures.

NQG variants Unfavorable – Favorable
This matchup really depends on the build. If they maindeck CounterTop, you’re probably screwed. If not, they probably sideboard it, so bring in Krosan Grips and Extirpate anyway. The matchup is definiatly winnable, but don’t keep a hand with only one threat. Also, hope they don’t draw the nuts. If they don’t, you should run enough threats and removal to win the attrition war.

Landstill Pretty much untested, but probably even – slightly favorable
The problem for them is that all your stuff keeps recurring. They can’t counter everything, all the time.

Lands! Unfavorable
Though winnable, you don’t like this matchup. Maze of Ith forces you to overextend into Tabernacle. Also, they can race. Postboard it gets better.

Other Loam variants About even.
Seriously, I hate Loam mirrors. They almost always go to time. The matchup itself is usually a coinflip.

Anything combo Extremely Unfavorable
Assuming they can win before turn 5, your pretty much dead, unless you draw the nuts and they are slow.

Stax variants Generally unfavorable, but depends on build
Though winnable, it isn’t a walk in the park. White Stax is bad, if they run Suppression Field main. Wildfire is definiatly winnable. It usually comes down to you getting down Zombie Infestation before they get down Smokestack. Maindeck you cannot beat Ensnaring Bridges, so that sucks (barring Ring recursion, but lets assume your opponent actually does anything in those ~7 turns you need to kill him)


Tournament results
Piloted by my teammates and me, this deck has made top8 in nearly every ~40 man and below tournament we attended.
A couple week ago, I missed top8 in the Dutch Legacy Champs (~125 players), when all I needed was one more turn, when my opponent topdecked what he needed, and I couldn’t find the removal I needed.
My results that day, out of 7 rounds of swiss, went like this:
4-0 first four rounds. Need to win one more to draw into top8.
Get paired with Loam mirror, go to time. 4-0-1.
Get paired against Ichorid. He annihalates me turn 2 in game 1. I board in Leylines, but he has Chain. Note that this was pre-Extirpate sideboard. 4-1-1.
I then lost the final round to a B/w/g Homebrew deck, in a very close 3 game match. Shit happens.

Something similiar happened about half a year ago, in what was also around a 120 player tournament. I steamroll my way through the early rounds, but the deck craps out on me in a very close, 3 game match for top8. That must be my thing or something ;) .

Final thoughts
After having spend more than 2000 words in this post, I feel like I have said what I wanted to say. Once more, I encourage you to try this out, you will not be disappointed. I hope you enjoyed reading through this primer, and found it interesting.

Thomas Krak
Team BackCorner

Freshrock
12-19-2007, 08:44 PM
how would you change the disruption base for a more combo oriented meta? Just wondering here, looks like an awesome fun super time kinda deck you got there.

ACME_Myst
12-19-2007, 08:48 PM
I'd probably go

-1 Smother
-3 Firestorm
+4 Thoughtseize

But I don't think even that's going to cut it against TES or Belcher. It's better to just not touch this deck if you expect 2 or more combo opponents during the swiss.

Nihil Credo
12-19-2007, 08:57 PM
I still have the original (pre-Goyf) list, and I remember it fondly. I never got around to updating it for the current meta, I'm glad you guys did. Couple of questions:

1) Why did you drop the Cabal Therapies? They were absolutely batshit insane. I find it difficult to believe Duress is better.
Besides, with maindeck Therapies and 4-6 slots of SB disruption (which is also useful for the control matchup), you should get a decent game against combo. Red Death used to consistently win off of just 8 discard spells and a quick clock, so this deck could pull off at least a 30-40% chance.

2) Why did you drop Ghastly Demise in favour of 2cc removal? I remember the deck being *extremely* mana hungry. All black creatures are x/2 or less anyway (or Negator), so Firestorm takes care of them.

ACME_Myst
12-19-2007, 09:12 PM
1) Yeah I can still see cutting Duress for Therapy's in a known meta. The problem with large tournaments, especially in the early rounds, is that Therapy will be very much hit or miss. I'd rather always take the best card in that situation, instead of (for example) misreading "U. Sea, Brainstorm, Go" for ******** and getting comboed out by SI instead.

2) We never publicly posted a list with Demise in it. Anyway, we tried to move the emphasis away from the GY, hence the cutting of Krovikan Horrors (though it is of course still a largely GY based deck). I don't like it when my removal is shut off the same time that my GY is. Besides, Terminate is great and I've never been short on mana for casting a removal spell.

revenge_inc
12-19-2007, 09:30 PM
-3 Nimble Mongoose
-3 Duress
-1 Smother
-1 Firestorm
-1 Swamp



+ 4 Thoughtseize
+ 2 Dark Withering (odd choice, but you have so many outlets, it's not even funny)
+ 2 Roar of the Wurm (can fight a off a goyf and allows for a big creature if something goes wrong and the zombie plan fails)
+ 1 Urborg (replaces the swamp but you can replace a badlands if you really fear Wasteland).

very thourough primer btw, I quite enjoyed it

BreathWeapon
12-19-2007, 09:33 PM
Can the extra copies of Life from the Loam, Squee, Goblin Nabob and Anger just be Gamble? I don't have a lot of experience with non-U Life from the Loam decks, but I could never figured out the reason the decks used 4 Life from the Loam over 4 Gamble and 1 Life from the Loam or X Burning Wish and 1 Life from the Loam in the SB.

If you use Squee, Goblin Nabob, Vampire Hounds is a reasonable creature, but considering this is a Life from the Loam deck, Terravore should be in there some where.

I don't care for Duress and Terminate at all, the first 8 cards I'd put in this deck are Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy. You should have either the biggest creatures or the most creatures, so spot removal is kind of pointless, and Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy can discard creatures of comparable size or creature combo.

Jak
12-19-2007, 09:55 PM
I agree with a lot of what Breathweapon said. I would cut all the spot removal and the three duresses and add 4 Therapies and 4 Seizes.

Cavius The Great
12-19-2007, 09:59 PM
I agree with a lot of what Breathweapon said. I would cut all the spot removal and the three duresses and add 4 Therapies and 4 Seizes.

I wouldn't cut the Firestorm though, those are too good.

revenge_inc
12-19-2007, 10:12 PM
I agree with a lot of what Breathweapon said. I would cut all the spot removal and the three duresses and add 4 Therapies and 4 Seizes.

If you do this, you will have a good combo matchup but will get owned by a fast deck like Goblins or Sligh (perhaps of the Cavius variety among others).

I would put the 4 Therapies in the board, so in games 2 and 3 you will know what to name.

enemyofarsenic
12-19-2007, 10:24 PM
how about volrath's stronghold and shriekmaw? are they any good in this deck? thoughtseize could be added here for combo matchups =]

revenge_inc
12-19-2007, 10:50 PM
how about volrath's stronghold and shriekmaw?

Volrath's Stronghold is not optimal here because you have no "key" creatures you want to bring back. They are all on the small side. You much rather keep a land in that produces coloured mana to avoid mana screw and most often draw a card instead of getting a dead creature.


Shriewmaw is quite an interesting idea. The key question then becomes "Will I face other black creatures?" If yes, keep the Terminate. If no, Shriewmaw is clearly superior (The other lesser question is "Do I need my removal to be intant speed?").

thefreakaccident
12-19-2007, 11:23 PM
Although this is not my fuerte at all, your opening post was so well written and thought out that I had to make a comment on this deck.

I think that cabal therapy can be used in any and all metas successfully as long as you generally know the format and the generic cards held within the format... like green = goyf, blue = force, white = swords (usually unless its' stax, but then you know what to name anyways).

I also think that you could benefit from volrath's stronghold, as it recurrs and can be brought back by loam... you already have genesis, but it would be a decent redundant backup card.

I would want to add witness or flashback cards to this deck... but the list is so tight I can't seem to make a cut with any sort of confidance...

BreathWeapon
12-20-2007, 12:03 AM
If you do this, you will have a good combo matchup but will get owned by a fast deck like Goblins or Sligh (perhaps of the Cavius variety among others).

I would put the 4 Therapies in the board, so in games 2 and 3 you will know what to name.

I doubt it, instead of a dead Duress you have an active Thought Seize and Firestorm is the most unfair card ever. Life from the Loam Aggro tends to crush regular Aggro, Boros Deck Wins just scooped to the Aggro Loam match up in Extended and this deck isn't that much different from Aggro Loam.

Not scooping to combo should be this deck's #1 priority, that's why Thought Seize and Cabal Therapy are mandatory, IMO.

As an aside, I'm not impressed with Squee, Goblin Nabob at all, I'd rather run Burning Wish to make Life from the Loam immune to Extirpate and Tormod's Crypt and just concentrate on the Life from the Loam engine. One Squee, Goblin Nabob mite be alright with Gamble, speaking of which, a single Gigapede combined with Gamble is an absolute nightmare against a lot of decks and Gambling for Volrath's Stronghold, Tomb of Urami, Wasteland or Barbarian Ring is strong.

MD
4 Thought Seize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Gamble
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Firestorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Anger
22 Land

SB
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Last Rights
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Roar of the Worm or Grizzly Fate
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

I tested this on Apprentice, I suggest a 1/1/1 split of the G/R/B cycling lands in the mana base and cutting a Barbarian Ring for a Wasteland, and it managed to roll over Goblins and give Threshold fits. Belcher and Illusionist were both reasonable match ups but TES and IGGY POP seem lost and Ichorid comes down to mulliganing into Leyline of the Void or resolving Haunting Echoes. Burning Wish was just stupid good, it lets the deck do a lot of things it other wise shouldn't be able to do, and none of those things are remotely fair.

The deck seems more Johnny than Spike tho', I just don't know if Zombie Infestation, Basking Rootwalla and Firestorm can compare to Seismic Assault, Terravore and Devastating Dreams, but It's definitely fun to play. Top decking Gamble and then casting it for Basking Rootwalla is the most broken play ever.

Jak
12-20-2007, 02:24 AM
I wouldn't cut the Firestorm though, those are too good.

Thats why I said spot removal.

@Breathweapon
I wouldn't run so many tutors. This is still an aggro deck and turning it into an aggro-control midrange decks just seems bad. I do think that a deck needs to have a shot against combo to have a shot in legacy so the 8 discard spells looks good.

This deck does seem really good. Maybe something like this?

8 Discard
4 Loam
4 ZI
4 Firestorm

4 Squee
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Genesis
1 Anger

20 Lands

2 Cards over. I think Burning Wish would do some good, but hurting the aggresiveness of the deck is bad.

BreathWeapon
12-20-2007, 03:13 AM
I don't think 4 Life from the Loam and 4 Squee, Goblin Nabob is as good as 4 Burning Wish and 4 Gamble, at most Burning Wish and Gamble sets the deck back a turn, but Burning Wish and Gamble give the deck a higher density of threats and answers. You can't out speed other aggro decks and aggro decks can't out speed combo, so the idea is to out last aggro, aggro-control and control while disrupting them and establishing a clock/board lock with out scooping to combo.

The moment a deck adds Life from the Loam, it is a mid range aggro deck. Burning Wish and Gamble make the deck more consistent and less linear, and I don't see how that could be a bad thing.

ACME_Myst
12-20-2007, 04:13 AM
Wow, that's a lot of replies too answer. I'm currently at school and the other students are going to kick me if I don't start working on our project right now, but I promise to answer all points as soon as I have time, probably this afternoon.

JvV
12-20-2007, 05:26 AM
Hey Thomas,

Cool to see this on here, I was wondering about your current list after the Open Dutch (I played you round 1 with Dryad Sligh). After the Open Dutch I started working a bit on Wild Zombies for extended. I found Cabal Therapy to be insane. Sure, the combo decks are a lot slower, but it's still very good. And the Duress/Thoughtseize into Therapy play will destroy almost every deck out there. You did play Therapy at the Open Dutch though, right? (I can also remember seeing a Plateau on your board, what was that for?)

About the spot removal. In the extended version I swapped Terminate for Putrefy (3 of them) with Pithing Needle in mind. Probably Putrefy is a bit slow in Legacy, but it's a bit more versatile and diversifies your manacurve a bit. I believe you do need spotremoval, though. Not necessarily for groundbeaters, but for the big flyers (Thoughtseize may help against these as well). If your opponent resolves a fast Exalted Angel or Tombstalker, you have to race pretty fast. If they combine it with some disruption, you just won't win that race.

That is in general what I have seen playing this deck. If your opponent has a decent-sized clock and some disruption for your engine (Needle/Crypt/Extirpate), it's pretty hard to catch up. Sure, when they leave your engine unmolested you'll beat every aggro deck out there because of superior and recurring threats. If they manage to Crypt you at the wrong moment or Needle your ZI, it'll leave you with a (more or less) useless Squee in hand or an enchantment that creates *gasp* 2/2's for *gasp* 2 cards in hand (cardadvantage? I think not). So, while I agree that you can often beat 1 disruption spell, multiples or a disruption spell backed with solid beats will cripple you enough to beat you.

One last note about the Affinity matchup. In extended, I tend to lose the Affinity matchup more than I win it. Mainboard Needles and (at the least) sideboarded Crypts combined with a blisteringly fast clock of enormous and/or flying creatures are a pain to deal with. The games I won were on the back of multiple Putrefies, or an unchecked ZI with removal for the flyers (or the opponent just not drawing a Plating for them), or t1 Duress t2 Therapy+flashback t3 ZI go nuts draw.

I think the deck is really good and can win through a lot, I'm a bit hesitant to play it because of the fact it gets hit with the 2 most played disruption in the format: Needle and Leyline.

Good primer btw.

etrigan
12-20-2007, 08:51 AM
so the idea is to out last aggro, aggro-control and control while disrupting them and establishing a clock/board lock with out scooping to combo.


Squee, when combined with ZI, is ridiculous at outlasting aggro, aggro-control, and control. They have to deal with two zombies every single turn, plus whatever you draw that turn. Squee is just too strong here.

ACME_Myst
12-20-2007, 08:51 AM
-3 Nimble Mongoose
-3 Duress
-1 Smother
-1 Firestorm
-1 Swamp

+ 4 Thoughtseize
+ 2 Dark Withering (odd choice, but you have so many outlets, it's not even funny)
+ 2 Roar of the Wurm (can fight a off a goyf and allows for a big creature if something goes wrong and the zombie plan fails)
+ 1 Urborg (replaces the swamp but you can replace a badlands if you really fear Wasteland).


Would you mind explaining why exactly the cards would be better, and which problem matchups this solves? We've tested Roar in the past, and it was either dead or win more.
Also, I can't see why cutting targetted removal and a sweeper for conditional removal is good.
What makes you think that Urborg is better than basic swamp? I'm assuming you mean Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, not the card Urborg itself.
Like I said in the OP, I can see cutting Duress for Thoughtseize though.



Can the extra copies of Life from the Loam, Squee, Goblin Nabob and Anger just be Gamble?
I don't have a lot of experience with non-U Life from the Loam decks, but I could never
figured out the reason the decks used 4 Life from the Loam over 4 Gamble and 1
Life from the Loam or X Burning Wish and 1 Life from the Loam in the SB.

If you use Squee, Goblin Nabob, Vampire Hounds is a reasonable creature,
but considering this is a Life from the Loam deck, Terravore should be in there some where.

I don't care for Duress and Terminate at all, the first 8 cards I'd put in this deck
are Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy. You should have either the biggest creatures or
the most creatures, so spot removal is kind of pointless, and Thoughtseize and Cabal
Therapy can discard creatures of comparable size or creature combo.


Yeah we tested Gamble. Like I said, the deck has been in development for almost a year, so we have gone through quite some iterations. It was generally pretty underwhelming.
Personally, I can't see why slowing the deck down and making you engine counterable would be much better, and what problems it solves. The threat density is already pretty high. Also, multiple Squee is the nut high, so cutting those down to below 3 is not something I would like to do.

We've never tested Vampire Hounds, but it seems rather subpar when compared to Mongrel. Terravore has been considered, but we've never been able to find slots for it.

The problem with that last theory is that it's flawed if you cannot smoothly execute your plan. We used to not run any Terminates in the maindeck, but found them to be very necessary in the current Goyf metagame. You may be right though that Therapy and / or Thoughtseize should find it's way into
the deck, but I don't feel that cutting Terminates is the right call. Maybe revenge_inc has it right that they should be in the board, but that's also pretty tight at the moment.



how about volrath's stronghold and shriekmaw?


We ran Stronghold for a while, but it became clear that Genesis is the superiour card. Both cost 3 mana, and become active while Loaming. Genesis however doesn't cost you a drawstep, and can be used as a beatstick in some situations.

Shriekmaw has been considered over Smother, but we found that instant speed and hitting more creatures was the better choice. This deck almost never get's to 5 mana, and if you do, you're probably already winning anyway.



Although this is not my fuerte at all, your opening post was so well written and thought out that
I had to make a comment on this deck.

I think that cabal therapy can be used in any and all metas successfully as long as you generally
know the format and the generic cards held within the format... like green = goyf, blue = force,
white = swords (usually unless its' stax, but then you know what to name anyways).

I also think that you could benefit from volrath's stronghold, as it recurrs and can be brought
back by loam... you already have genesis, but it would be a decent redundant backup card.

I would want to add witness or flashback cards to this deck... but the list is so tight I can't
seem to make a cut with any sort of confidance...

Thanks :).

If you believe Therapy's to be superiour, and you have a metagame in which you feel you can fully maximize their effect, run them. I find the meta here in Holland to be so random that I'd rather err on the safe side and always hit something.

The Stronghold point was already addressed above this part, so I want eleborate further.

Yeah, we have the same problem. Like you said, finding slots is quite difficult. Also, the real question is whether or not adding these cards actually make the deck any better.



New lists..


Are you sure you aren't just making changes to the deck, for changes sake? A bad combo matchup is something that can also just be accepted, since it will always stay a metagame deck. All decks have bad matchups anyway.
I feel that if this problem is solved by changing the disruption package to, for example, 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Therapy, without messing with the other matchup percentages, it should be done. I do not, however, see why adding
Gamble and Burning Wish deals with the problem matchups. Maybe you can be more specific about why you feel this is a good idea. Like I said, Gamble was tested by us, but was found underwhelming.



*snip*, pretty big post to copy into here


No, I played a different list at the Dutch Champs, mostly because at the time I didn't have access to Goyfs. So I ran an older list than this. Note that I barely missed top8 with a much inferiour list, without Goyfs. I did play Duress over Therapy though, mostly because of my point that Therapy is pretty
random in an unknown meta (at least if not backed up by other discard like Duress/Thoughtseize).
The Plateau was there because I sideboarded Ray of Revelation, so that I had a means to hardcast it when I didn't have a discard outlet. It's replaced with the second Badlands in the current list.

I agree that the spotremoval is very much needed, both for the reasons you stated and simply because it can break Goyf-stills.

About your point that multiple pieces of disruption, backed up with a fast clock as hard to battle, yes this is true. This is however also true for about every deck in the format. I have to disagree though that Squee's become dead cards. You can always just hardcast them to chumpblock.
Also, ZI in play with your GY crypted isn't that big of a deal. The cards in your hand that are not recurrable, are probably going to be either other threats, or removal for their beatdown.

I honestly have no idea why your Affinity matchup is that bad. I have always found it to be pretty much a bye. You can chumpblock just about all their creatures, so just save your removal for the flyers. Also, nasty tricks like Terminate on Ravager, then Firestorm the rest of the board with Modular trigger on the stack is very unfair.


So a big thanks to everybody for their replies, and I hope that this post has cleared up some things about the deck.

[Edit]
Ninja'ed

etrigan probably said it clearer in fewer words than I did.

BreathWeapon
12-20-2007, 12:48 PM
I ran Burning Wish and Gamble because while Squee, Goblin Nabob is good with a threat on the board, he's twice as bad with out a threat on the board. The deck has almost no tutoring/selection, so if Zombie Infestation or Wild Mongrel are countered, you're left with an unimpressive recurring chump blocker for Tarmogoyf. If speed mattered, or if you had Bazaar of Baghdad, Squee, Goblin Nabob would be a fine choice, but it doesn't, and you don't, so you're better off running cards that are useful by themselves.

That's the best reason to use 8 discard, if you don't resolve your outlet, your entire deck is a pile. I found Gamble to be great in testing, Basking Rootwalla for R, tutor/outlet for Anger, tutor for Life from the Loam, tutor for cycling lands, tutor for Barbarian Ring etc. it just does so much. Burning Wish is a ridiculous card, even with the Squee, Goblin Nabob engine, it can Burning Wish -> Buried Alive for Squee, Goblin Nabob or just end the game after resolution, Devastating Dreams, Last Rites, Haunting Echoes etc. and it's either efficient mass removal or inefficient spot removal, but either way it's better than Terminate.

Card slots that do a lot of things well are preferable to card slots which do one thing well under ideal situations, IMO, I prefer decks with out one dimensional cards that don't turn side ways if possible.

Lemuria
12-22-2007, 11:59 PM
With Loam engine, Genesis and a infinity way for making zombies, I also think that Therapy will be really sick in this deck.

Anyway, this Loam variant seems really really cool, actually, one of the most interestings I ever seen, good job. I would love to see some results.

Thomas1991
05-18-2008, 06:40 PM
Cutting squees is'nt the right call those nasty goblins are just to good to be cut because they can block, be discarted or just be flashbacked for therapy.

This deck gains its strenght by using strong cards with a drawback by discarting cards (firestorm,mongrel,ZI,LFTL) so cutting cards that have synergy with all good cards in the deck a bad choose.

Burning wish is a slow card and the deck has already lots of 2cc slots and lots of cards it want to play turn 2.

i can't see why it's better then the squees because it does'nt help to better your bad matchups.

What does Burning wish agains Tier 1 combo (TES, Fetchland tendrills enz) that makes it so mutch better then squee?

Also çabal therapy/duress/thoughtseize are all great choises just pick the one you like the most and stop discussing which one is better because it's a never ending discussion.

Thomas: are there any developments on the deck ? (yeah still busy making and testing the deck)

Michael Keller
05-18-2008, 07:27 PM
I was actually tinkering around with a similar idea a few months back. Has anyone considered Control of the Court? It allows you to put Rootwalla into play, feed Tarmogoyfs, put Anger in the yard, assists big-time with Life from the Loam, and is pretty good with Squee. I don't see how it could be a bad option, because Gamble is already a high consideration, but at least your digging and discarding and replacing with a card.

Gamble in certain instances could be strictly better, but there are a lot of effects which bank on things in the graveyard, and this gives you more of a punch in that specific area.

Roman Candle
05-18-2008, 07:47 PM
I don't know about Control of the Court; The good thing about Gamble is it's essentially "R: Turn your deck online." CotC doesn't do that. Besides, you have better things to do on turn 2-- Goyf, ZI, Burning Wish in some builds, etc.

If you are going to use it though, split it with Goblin Lore for coolness points... and for... Meddling Mage... I guess. (If they call CotC with Meddling Mage, you should already have won the match). Or you could just use Lore, since it'll be a hell of a lot easier to find.

Thomas1991
05-20-2008, 08:11 AM
If gamble is'nt good enough to be but in the deck why should goblin lore be so mutch better?

arsenalpow
05-20-2008, 08:26 AM
If the deck is cluttered at the 2 drop slot then wouldn't accelerating into 2 mana asap be the optimal play? Which means mox diamond because it is loams best friend!

ACME_Myst
05-20-2008, 09:04 AM
Yeah, we tested Mox Diamond. It basically came down to being good when you had Loam, but sucking hard when you didn't have it.

Also, @ Thomas1991: This is the most recent build, we haven't done any work on it since everybody on team backcorner switched to other decks. With Goblins and B/w Homebrew dropping as some of the most played decks in the Dutch metagame, WZ just isn't as good a call as it used to be. Should those decks regain in popularity, we might spend some time updating the deck. Until that time, feel free to experiment with it, but don't expect insane results should combo continue to rise in popularity.

GenioDeArena
05-21-2008, 10:12 AM
Preety cool deck, Ive been fiddling with a Casual variant for the last week and a half and is really powerfull and relentless against aggro.
Just some questions regarding card choices.
Since there already is a LFTL engine going on, has anyone considered Crop Rotation? Is an instant speed tutor that puts land directly into play and its drawback gets negated by Loam, even if it gets countered.
ACME Myst, have you considered Gathan Raiders as another threat. Is very synergistic with Mongrel and Infestation and, hell, is a 5/5 for 3cc, wich avoids Chalice at @2 and CB.
Thanks for reading

ACME_Myst
05-21-2008, 10:36 AM
No, actually I haven't. For those people looking into the deck, it might be something to check out. I do want to point out that it's actually a 5/5 3cc that gets hit by Chalic@0 (though that would be it's only target in the deck), and CB with a land on top. Remember, Morph creatures have a CMC = 0.

GenioDeArena
05-22-2008, 05:14 PM
It is true then, every day you learn something new!!!!

Thomas1991
06-29-2008, 09:11 AM
I'm testing wild zombies without Life from the loam

Life from the loam have great synergy when zombie infestation/wild mongrel are online but has a big dissynergy when zombie infestation is'nt online.
you never draw discards, zombie infestation, firestorm, terminates enz.

dark confidant is a great card that create card advantage (duh) it replace the roll of the loam.

squee, goblin nabob: synergy with, cabal therapy, zombie infestation, wild mongrel, firestorm and blocks tarmogoyf all day long.

krovikan horror: i needed a 5th squee because 4 squees where somtimes nog enough.

fierie temper: great with, firestorm, wild mongrel and zombie infestation. (still testing how great it is.)

Umezawa's jitte: synergy with all creatures. (+ it's on extra card that helps destroying opposing goyf.)

therapy/duress/thoughseize: discards removal, counterspells, combo cards enz.

firestorm: THE CARD vs aggro.

Zombie infestation: 3 are enough, well great against control, aggro-control and aggro. creates an aggro and a control roll.

Tarmogoyf: a big beater.

basking rootwalla: great card with discard outletts.



creatures
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 squee, goblin nabob
1 krovikan horror
3 wild mongrel
4 basking rootwalla

enchantments
3 zombie infestation

artifacts
3 umezawa's jitte

sorcery
3 cabal therapy
3 thoughtseize

instants
3 firestorm
4 fierie temper

lands
3 wooded foothills
3 bloodstained mire
2 badlands
3 taiga
3 bayou
3 swamp
2 mountain
2 forest



sideboard
3 extirpate
3 krosan grip
4 terminate
1 firestorm
4 chalice of the void