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Reagens
04-14-2008, 01:03 PM
I've picked up the deck a few months ago and I'm having some difficulties.

First of all red blasts/ pyro: In my experience a good control player will wait for a key searching spell (burning wish, infernal tutor, ill-gotten-gains etc) to counter. Mostly in said case you don't or more correctly can't have a hand left. Thus making the blasts useless. I know most control players try to keep you off 4 mana, and thos you can easily bait. But if they use the above strategy, blasts are useless and I'm having a lot (or at least too many) of those.
Thoughtseize: Never wished for it once. I understand the potential, but in my experience you burning wish for everything but a thoughtseize. I have the impression of wasting a good spell on something very suboptimal (i.e. a potential solution instead of a certain one). Can anybody give me a standard situation where thoughtseize is useful?

My current sideboard:

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cruel Bargain
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Cleanfall
SB:1 Pyroclasm
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:3 Xantid swarm
SB:1 Pyroblast


The reason for 3 shattering spree btw is because there is an abundance of artifact hatred in my meta.

yawg07
04-14-2008, 02:06 PM
Chrome Mox. I hardly ever imprint something on it and in multiples they suck.

Is it nessary, at all?

Discuss.

How long have you been playing the deck?

I used to hate Chrome Mox to death, as well. But, I'm telling you that yes they are absolutely necessary.
Diminishing Returns is far less effective without them, they help empty the hand for Infernal,
they grant you an extra blue mana a lot, also they just simply add to storm.

Don't play em if you don't like em, no one is forcing you to, but your deck is less effective without them.

Ever since I wrote that last report, I was in two more tourneys and split top in both of those as well. (8 man, and 17 man ones)
One on Wednesday was a split with a member here at the source, and on Friday it was a split in my favor with my rifter playing friend.

Several of those victories could NOT have been achieved without Chrome.

Giles
04-14-2008, 03:03 PM
How long have you been playing the deck?

Over a year.


I used to hate Chrome Mox to death, as well. But, I'm telling you that yes they are absolutely necessary.
Diminishing Returns is far less effective without them, they help empty the hand for Infernal,
they grant you an extra blue mana a lot,

First you need to Imprint a Brainstorm or a Ponder, to get blue mana.
This means you need THREE sources of mana to pull a Returns.


also they just simply add to storm.
Yes, however, adding to the storm is what they do the most. And this is why i am complaining.



but your deck is less effective without them.
Prove it.



Several of those victories could NOT have been achieved without Chrome.
For them adding storm or mana?

conboy31
04-14-2008, 09:29 PM
Prove it.


I think it would actually be up to you to prove a build is more effective without chrome moxes as the deck has performed at a high level with moxes included.
I would be interested in seeing if you have an idea in mind for subbing them out or are just stating they seem subpar.
Assuming you are correct and they are decent at providing storm and not much else, what would you propose to take its slot? Even if it is just providing free storm it is probably the best free storm provider available right now.

yawg07
04-14-2008, 09:44 PM
Over a year.

Then I am pretty surprised you don't see their importance by now.



First you need to Imprint a Brainstorm or a Ponder, to get blue mana.
This means you need THREE sources of mana to pull a Returns.

I've won many games off the back of Chrome w/blue, a land, a petal/land, ritual, Returns w/Black floating (even better if you've got an LED)



Yes, however, adding to the storm is what they do the most. And this is why i am complaining.

Maybe your plays and luck are just different than mine. I find they are mana quite a bit.
One of the biggies is when you have a chrome in your hand and you go land, rit, draw4.
Now you have things to play with and another black/blue in your hand to cast them.



Prove it.

I'm not sure how to answer this, I just know that running less than 4 or none, I fail to have mana numbers a lot.
I've won far more games and tournaments with the full complement of Chromes.




For them adding storm or mana?

Both, actually.
Usually both at once. Chrome Mox is an excellent card.
Just stick a spare cantrip/tutor on there. God knows you'll draw duplicates of things and not need em.

matelml
04-15-2008, 11:31 AM
Chrome Mox is by far the worst card in the deck, so I am not surprised someone asks. I have to agree Chrome Mox is necessary in the deck, but because it's so bad in doubles I advise to play 3. I hope a better card is printed for TES, but I doubt it would be an initial manasource which can replace the Mox. If it's important: I have played with TES a little more than a year, which is almost as long as it's known and yes, I have achieved results with it. I played with 4 Moxes most of the time, but cut 1. My configuration is: 3 Mox, 3 SSG, 2 Cabal Ritual, 4 City, 4 Mine, 1 Paradise, 1 Tarnished Citadel, 1 Orchard.
I know that's 1 more land than usual, it's the way I like it. I trade a little bit of speed of which I still have enough, for less mulligans and some more consistency. I am also playing 4 Ponder at the moment, which is nice with 11 land, with the same arguments.

zefhek
04-15-2008, 05:51 PM
how many brainstorms do you run atm? 4 also?

matelml
04-16-2008, 05:19 AM
how many brainstorms do you run atm? 4 also?

That should not have to be asked, Brainstorm is too good to consider less than 4. I understand some people are not always happy with it because you only have a few shuffle effects, but that is because Brainstorm is a difficult card in this deck. Playing it too early can often cost you the game. You should definitely not always play brainstorm when you have the possibillity. When to Brainstorm and when not to is learned in time. The most important factor is the strength of your hand and if you are likely to be able to win with the next 3 cards. This certainly isn't always an easy decision.

Dilettante
04-16-2008, 07:04 AM
Consider how quickly you have to go off when you consider Chrome Mox. The largest determinant is the speed you are forced to go off. It's an Ichorid and Chalice Paradise out here... and I have to imprint my cantrips fairly often in an attempt to go off immediately on Slithermuse / D. Returns. In a different meta that may have less ultra-quick wins and disruption, you may have better luck. However, yes, it is a horrible card to draw into. Something else to consider is how many win conditions you run. The fewer you run, the more you need Chrome Mox since you become more and more reliant on the tutors... Infernal in particular, and Chrome Mox... beyond being a mana source, allows you to create Hellbent, especially post Brainstorm. In relation to the Brainstorm comment, that is often the usage many players miss... When you don't have a LED, it often lets you utilize your Infernal without one.

Michael Keller
04-16-2008, 09:08 AM
That should not have to be asked, Brainstorm is too good to consider less than 4. I understand some people are not always happy with it because you only have a few shuffle effects, but that is because Brainstorm is a difficult card in this deck. Playing it too early can often cost you the game. You should definitely not always play brainstorm when you have the possibillity. When to Brainstorm and when not to is learned in time. The most important factor is the strength of your hand and if you are likely to be able to win with the next 3 cards. This certainly isn't always an easy decision.

Let's not forget how good Brainstorm is when you Diminishing Returns into nothing. It happens.

yawg07
04-17-2008, 01:38 AM
Got another one for you guys! :cool:


6-0 Tourney Report

9 people, 4 rounds, TES Wins! w00t


The List:

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual

4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Infernal Contract

4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish

4x Orim's Chant

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns

1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass


The Sideboard:

4x Pyroblast
3x Duress
1x Pyroclasm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Hull breach
1x Infernal Contract
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns


---


Round 1

Opponent: R/G Goblins


Game 1

This was kind of wild, my opening hand had a lot of mana and some draw, I kept.
I draw, then play Brainstorm. More mana and a land. Okay, cool, need a wincon :/
He starts getting his army together and I'm searching, I've played Brainstorm,
and now I get a ponder with IGG, land, LED and on my last turn to live.

I could shuffle and hope, OR I can do this ...

Petal, Ritual, Ritual, LED, SSG, Rite, Rite, IGG breaking LED for UUU and picking up LED, Ponder, and Brainstorm.
Ponder and see the two I'd seen before plus another LED, blah. Shuffle. Draw LED, okay sweet.
Brainstorm now, see land, land, INFERNAL TUTOR YEAH!!!!!

I proceed to win game phase and we go to SB.


Game 2 - SB in 3x Duress, SB out 2x Ponder and 1x SSG

He goes first and drops Fetch, Lackey, Chalice at 0 ... son of a bitch.
Well, my hand was LED, Petal, Petal, Chrome with stuff. Ugh.
Long story short, Lackey brings out the family and I die without getting together my shit.


Game 3 - No Change

Mull to 6. Open up with land, brainstorm ... okay I can win next turn barring Chalice at 0.
He plays Fanatic and passes, I win with mana spells and 2x LED B.Wish.



Round 2

Opponent: R/G Goblins #2


Game 1

My opener is great, so I keep. He plays a Lackey and passes.
I play a land and Brainstorm. Okay cool, next turn D.Returns with B floating and 7 spells I do believe.
He does non-relevant stuff and passes the turn.
Okay I draw an LED it enabled me to just win.


Game 2 - No Change, as far as I knew he didn't play Chalice

Okay, suck. Mull to 5 and it is still not so hot, but keepable.
We do our thing, he puts me on my last turn and I D.Returns at 4 storm and B floating.
Draw Petal, Petal, LED, Ritual, Chrome, SSG, Chant ... Wow, damn.



Round 3

Opponent: G/B Rock Variant


Game 1

Okay, he mulls to 5 and I lay land and pass the turn.
He doesn't do land, duress/thoughtseize. He goes to waste my land and I brainstorm.
I go Turn 2 D.Returns as 6th spell with none floating and find my win with ...
Chrome removing contract, Dark Rit, LED, Tutor


Game 2 - SB in 3x Duress, SB out 2x Ponder and 1x SSG

I mull to 6 and have a keeper, was gonna just go rit-contract and see how it went.
He opens with a Cabal Pit, Duress and takes my Infernal Contract. :(
Okay, drop land and pass. He puts down treetop village and passes.
Lets see ... Chrome imprinting SSG and Wish for Contract.
He Thoughtseizes the Contract o___0
SIGH. We go a few more turns and he drops E.Witness and picks up Duress.
I duress it from him, but I'm taking it in the butt from Treetop Village still.
I eventually draw an out and take it away.



Round 4

Opponent: [i]G/B Rock Variant #2


Game 1

Holy shit, I mull to 4, I have no choice.
He pins me down with discard and goyfs me to death :/


Game 2 - SB in 3x Duress, SB out 2x Ponder, 1x SSG

I don't remember exactly what happened, but I ended up winning on turn 2 with double LED dumbness.


Game 3 - No Change

Wow. Crazy game. We both like our 7 and keep.
He opens with Cabal Pit and Duresses me.
Ugh he takes my Brainstorm I needed :/ Oh well, I draw and go land, SSG, Wish for Contract.
He lays another Pit and Hymns me ... takes IGG and Contract ... WTF is with people today!?!
Okay, play another land and pass. He passes. I pay ANOTHER land and pass.
Goes to him and he HYMNS ME AGAIN, but plays no land and is at 15.
Well, I'm left with EtW in my hand. I draw a petal and I have 3 lands, hmm, looks like the best play to me.
Petal, tap 3, EtW for 4 guys. He goes and does nothing.

I Draw a Brainstorm, swing and put him at 11. Okay, I play Brainstorm and see LED, Petal, SSG, nice.
He goes and it is a repeat of his last turn. I go and draw petal, swing for 4 more, then cast SSG.
He is at 7 and still can't produce a good turn. I draw the LED and crack him down to 1.

He can no longer win as he can't tap a land. Game is mine.



FINALS

Round 1

Opponent: UG/w Threshold


Game 1

Alright then, 2x chant, mana, and a Brainstorm. Excellent! HE MULLS TO 5! :D
Okay, Brainstorm into a third chant, Rite #2, and a Tutor.
Pass my turn and he lays a land and passed it back.

I chant, it resolves, I get 14 gobs and he lays his hand back on top and concedes.


Game 2 - SB in 4x Pyroblast, 2x Duress - SB out 2x Ponder, 2x Cabal, 1x Tutor, 1x Chrome

Okay, I mull to 6 and he keeps. He drops a land and passes.
Hmm, lets see here, I do the same. He drops another land, plays Meddling Mage and names Orim's Chant.
My turn I go 2x LED, Petal, Chrome imprinting Tutor. IGG is unforturnately in my hand.
I crack petal and tap my land to play Infernal Tutor and crack the LEDs, he dazes and I pay with my Mox.
I go EtW for 14, and he agrees. He Brainstorms on his turn and says THERE they are! And shows Fow, 2x Spell Snare.
He loses and I move to Top 2.


Opponent is Goblins, I don't offer the draw because I should beat Gobs no probs, right?
Yep, you're right :D


Game 1

Can't remember it all, but I get it on turn 3 thanks to a timely Chrome imprinting Ponder, Petal, Rit, D.Returns into the win.
He did stuff, too, and had it almost perfectly done, but game one he has to have a PERFECT game or he loses.

Game 2 - SB in 3x Duress (found out he DOES play chalice between rounds) out 2x Ponder, 1x SSG

Wow, opener had a ton of mana and a Brainstorm, so I kept. So what if it doesn't work out, I've got game 3 by going first.
He starts out strong, wastes 2 of my lands and I'm not drawing anything relevant.
SLAMS me down to 2 and has a Fanatic and I have a City of Brass.

My hand, you ask?

Petal
Petal
Rite
Rite
Dark Rit
Dark Rit
Duress

My draw, you are just as curious?

INFERNAL FUCKING TUTOR AHHHHH YEAHHHH!!!!


Petal, Rite, Rite (3, RRRR)
Petal, Rit, Rit (6, RRRRBBBBB)
Duress (7, RRRRBBBB)
Infernal (8, RRRBBB)
Infernal (9, RRBB)
TENDRILS (10)



Collect up my prize and play some EDH. Good day, today :D

hungryboi
04-18-2008, 02:30 PM
Congrats on the tournament.

I was wondering about some of the rules for Meditate. Can it be played before your untap phase during your turn? If it could, then wouldn't it be better than infernal contract since you can avoid the life loss and just go off on your main phase?

Sanguine Voyeur
04-18-2008, 02:37 PM
Can it be played before your untap phase during your turn? If it could, then wouldn't it be better than infernal contract since you can avoid the life loss and just go off on your main phase?No. The untap phase is the first part of the turn, and spells and abilities can't be played then.

Arsenal
04-18-2008, 02:40 PM
There is no "before your untap phase" timeperiod. It's, untap (no spells/abilities may be played), upkeep, draw.

mujadaddy
04-18-2008, 02:40 PM
Congrats on winning, yawg07, but ... Nine players?

Congrats on the tournament.

I was wondering about some of the rules for Meditate. Can it be played before your untap phase during your turn? If it could, then wouldn't it be better than infernal contract since you can avoid the life loss and just go off on your main phase?

No player gets to play spells DURING the untap phase, and the untap phase is the signal for the beginning of the turn, so I suppose the answer is no.

Zappa
04-21-2008, 02:41 PM
Hello bryant or to the others who is well experienced with the deck. What changes would you do to the sideboard if your meta has few to none counter magic, but discard is more rampant. A friend told me to just play a different deck, but I want to gain more experience playing the deck against others.

Cards like Hymn to Tourach, Duress, Thoughtsieze, Gerrard's Verdict, True Believer, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Smallpox, Hypnotic Specter, Extirpate, and Cabal Theraphy. Are thall the cards that I frequently see.

Pretty much decks I play against often that have difficulty fighting are:

- Mono black aggro (packing some discards)
- B/W Confidant
- Homebrew and TruffleShuffle (though truffleshuffle is too slow for me)
- Death and Taxes
- Stax (those chalices and 3spheres hurt)

Theres other decks around that can sometimes out race me on a bad draw, but those said decks I face them very often. Theres also a G/U/R threshold player, but just him. Those decks I mentioned are the once that gives me problems.

Any advise on sideboarding vs a heavy discard enviroment?

Mental
04-21-2008, 02:46 PM
Hello bryant or to the others who is well experienced with the deck. What changes would you do to the sideboard if your meta has few to none counter magic, but discard is more rampant. A friend told me to just play a different deck, but I want to gain more experience playing the deck against others.

Cards like Hymn to Tourach, Duress, Thoughtsieze, Gerrard's Verdict, True Believer, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Smallpox, Hypnotic Specter, Extirpate, and Cabal Theraphy. Are thall the cards that I frequently see.

Pretty much decks I play against often that have difficulty fighting are:

- Mono black aggro (packing some discards)
- B/W Confidant
- Homebrew and TruffleShuffle (though truffleshuffle is too slow for me)
- Death and Taxes
- Stax (those chalices and 3spheres hurt)

Theres other decks around that can sometimes out race me on a bad draw, but those said decks I face them very often. Theres also a G/U/R threshold player, but just him. Those decks I mentioned are the once that gives me problems.

Any advise on sideboarding vs a heavy discard enviroment?

You need to bring in Dark Confidant. Also, having IGG is strong, so you might want to go up to 2 Copies, though that probably isn't necessary. Infernal Contract also seems alright, giving you 4 new cards when your hand has been taken apart.

yawg07
04-21-2008, 04:06 PM
Infernal Contract is your number one main weapon against discard.
I've won SO MANY games where I was Duressed/Hymned/Thoughtseized to death just going ...

"Oh look! Rit, Contract, 4 more cards. Hey, whaddya know? LED, Rit, Tutor, Chrome" or something like that. :D

r0ckstAr
04-21-2008, 06:23 PM
What about Mox Diamond ?
With the new errata on it, it is far less risky than it was before, and could be great to avoid some of the chrome moxen Card Disadvantage.

Silvoz
04-21-2008, 06:27 PM
You won't have the lands to constantly play Diamond in this deck, you are just playing 10-11.

r0ckstAr
04-21-2008, 06:42 PM
You're probably right; thinking about it, I was probably gonna cut some lands to play mox diamond, which is terrible.

Zappa
04-21-2008, 06:51 PM
You need to bring in Dark Confidant. Also, having IGG is strong, so you might want to go up to 2 Copies, though that probably isn't necessary. Infernal Contract also seems alright, giving you 4 new cards when your hand has been taken apart.


Is the confidant really necessary? Or can I just increase the number of IGG and contract? I am trying to avoid using the confidant, since to me most of those decks I mentioned usually packs StP, therefore intead of making their removals a dead card, I would just be giving them use out of it. Would seem like we would no longer have virtual card advantage for that matter, since thier "dead" card will now have some target.

Holo_rip
04-21-2008, 07:02 PM
he mean bring confidant into the MD from the sideboard.
as you've stated, the first game the opponent deck have deck removal, and they usually side them all for combo hate, and that's why you can safely bring in confidant, making him draw card for you and make CA with your combo deck, with the opponent unable to deal with your CA machine

regard,
holo.

yurivish
04-22-2008, 11:07 PM
This is very much in the cool-things category, but I should mention Dream Salvage (Draw cards equal to the number of cards target opponent discarded this turn) from Shadowmoor + IGG.

For one more mana, you draw as many cards as your opponent had in their hand. Seeing as we're trying to go off early, this is anywhere from 4-7 cards.

Arsenal
04-23-2008, 01:56 PM
Bryant -

From your most recent post, I understand that you've been testing Slithermuse in place of a draw4 maindeck. What has your testing yielded?

Bryant Cook
04-24-2008, 01:08 PM
Hello bryant or to the others who is well experienced with the deck. What changes would you do to the sideboard if your meta has few to none counter magic, but discard is more rampant. A friend told me to just play a different deck, but I want to gain more experience playing the deck against others.

Cards like Hymn to Tourach, Duress, Thoughtsieze, Gerrard's Verdict, True Believer, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Smallpox, Hypnotic Specter, Extirpate, and Cabal Theraphy. Are thall the cards that I frequently see.

Pretty much decks I play against often that have difficulty fighting are:

- Mono black aggro (packing some discards)
- B/W Confidant
- Homebrew and TruffleShuffle (though truffleshuffle is too slow for me)
- Death and Taxes
- Stax (those chalices and 3spheres hurt)

Theres other decks around that can sometimes out race me on a bad draw, but those said decks I face them very often. Theres also a G/U/R threshold player, but just him. Those decks I mentioned are the once that gives me problems.

Any advise on sideboarding vs a heavy discard enviroment?

Don't ever play more than one IGG, it's a terrible idea. Play draw 4's and/or more Ponder. Possibly Thoughtsieze? I'd probably play more Shattering Spree.


As for Slithermuse, I found it to be underwhelming. Amazing in goldfishing, terrible in actual gameplay.

Zappa
04-25-2008, 01:35 AM
There is a new hybrid card in Shadowmoor, that I am wondering if it can see some play in this deck. Its called:

Manamorphose

Casting cost : 1 (G/R)
Card type: Instant

Add 2 color mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.


It is basically free and replaces its self. Do you think that this can see some play in TES? It's basically a free storm count.

Cone
04-25-2008, 06:43 AM
Manamorphose

Casting cost : 1 (G/R)
Card type: Instant

Add 2 color mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

I'll give it a try and test it in the two Cabal Ritual-Slots. (Or instead of Ponder??!? -- Not really.)

BreathWeapon
04-25-2008, 11:21 AM
I'm running a Manamorphose/Tinder Wall base to support 3 Diminishing Returns in the MD at the moment. It doesn't seem to be as consistent as the 3 Empty the Warrens 4 Ponder version I've been running, but it's not as reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond either.

Manamorphose TES

MD

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Diminishing Returns
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
4 Manamorphose
4 Tinder Wall
3 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Doomsday
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Deconstruct
1 Tranquility
1 Rite of Flame
4 Vexing Shusher

I think this is the right approach to take, you min/max Manamorphose as much as possible by using it's color filtering for Diminishing Returns and storm generation for Empty the Warrens. A Right of Flame and Infernal Tutor got moved to the SB to free up some room, and Deconstruct is doing cool shit like casting Vexing Shusher after you blow something up or filtering the green mana with Manamorphose and going off on the same turn. Doomsday is kind of sketchy, the basic idea is that you can set up a bunch of interesting stacks with Manamorphose and then just untap and win on the next turn.

It's not perfect, but it has a lot of neat little synergies you get to mess around with. I've become a fan of being able to Brainstorm a Diminishing Returns back on top of the deck and then using Manamorphose to draw into it with LED on the stack, or being able to Doomsday and then Manamorphose into a stack made up of Brainstorm and Manamorphoses for at least 8 storm.

Zach Tartell
04-25-2008, 12:09 PM
I don't understand why you'd run only three "right" of flame. Seems to me that card is way better as a 4 of. And a single one nets the same amount of mana that tinder wall does (don't argue that you can save mana by untapping). I'd go -1 +1, in reverse order of mentioning.

Edit: it's in your board. That's a terrible idea. Why waste acceleration to wish for acceleration?

Seems to me it makes as much sense as putting a burning wish in your board so you can wish for the one you used to wish for the second (in order to add storm).

(that's sarcasm - it seems like a terrible idea to me to board a rite of flame)

Attack the ideas, not the person. Verbal warning for flaming and flames deleted.

-PR

BreathWeapon
04-25-2008, 12:59 PM
I don't understand why you'd run only three "right" of flame. Seems to me that card is way better as a 4 of. And a single one nets the same amount of mana that tinder wall does (no, you dolt, don't argue that you can save mana by untapping). I'd go -1 +1, in reverse order of mentioning.

Edit: it's in your board. That's a terrible idea. Why waste acceleration to wish for acceleration?

Seems to me it makes as much sense as putting a burning wish in your board so you can wish for the one you used to wish for the second (in order to add storm).

(that's sarcasm - it seems like a terrible idea to me to board a rite of flame)

You SB a Rite of Flame so Burning Wish can tutor for an accelerant, which is no different than Infernal Tutor tutoring for a second Dark Ritual, and it's been a standard practice of Extended Mind's Desire forever. We've considered it in the past, and even Bryant mentioned it recently, so it's hardly as nonsensical as you're making it out to be. I don't know where you're getting the idea that your wasting acceleration to search for acceleration from, as long as you have a sufficient density of acceleration in your deck, SBing a Rite of Flame is nothing more than a space/utility preference.

I don't see how arguing Tinder Wall's use as a one drop that produces RR on the following turn warrants name calling, being able to cast Tinder Wall and pass the turn is the card's most outstanding feature. Tinder Wall is even better in TES than it is in Belcher, due to TES being more of a staggered combo deck. The RR mana production has several important funtions, such as resolving Diminishing Returns on the second turn by producing RR with out tapping lands that could have been used to create UU, and it puts your mana production right at the point where you need it to be to make the Burning Wish->Infernal Tutor chain a possibility. If all I wanted was the R mana production, I would have just used Simian Spirit Guide in the deck.

Even if the MD or SB isn't optimal by a single card, and that's arguable, because I admitted the list was experimental, it's not enough of a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Ewokslayer
04-25-2008, 02:15 PM
You SB a Rite of Flame so Burning Wish can tutor for an accelerant, which is no different than Infernal Tutor tutoring for a second Dark Ritual, and it's been a standard practice of Extended Mind's Desire forever.

If by forever, you mean never than you are right.
Of the 25 Desire deck's that made top 8 this Extended Season (from SCG database) there were 92 Rite of Flames, Zero of them were in sideboards.

BreathWeapon
04-25-2008, 02:46 PM
If by forever, you mean never than you are right.
Of the 25 Desire deck's that made top 8 this Extended Season (from SCG database) there were 92 Rite of Flames, Zero of them were in sideboards.

When I was running Desire in Extended the standard lists had the Rite of Flame in the SB, if it was changed, or if it was considered sup-optimal so be it, but it was common practice at the time. Dig thru' the Desire thread on SCG if you don't believe me, but regardless SBing Rite of Flame is neither a new or radical suggestion.

SB the 2 Empty the Warrens and bring in the Rite of Flame and Infernal Tutor if the configuration bothers you that much, but you'll miss the 2 Empty the Warrens more than you'll miss the redundant accelerant and one dimensional tutor, IMO.

r0ckstAr
04-25-2008, 04:00 PM
BreathWeapon, aren't you missing accel while playing your version of the deck ?
Hell, with wastedlife's version, I often want more acceleration, and draw into too many 4cc cards. EtW & DR n°2 & 3 seems horrible to me !

chokin
04-25-2008, 04:28 PM
Wtf is up with the 3 Diminishing Returns? Isn't that idea old and janky?

I found it. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=199979&postcount=90

I know a guy who runs a Rite of Flame in his Belcher Wishboard. He also runs a Burning Wish in the Wishboard. I lol'd irl at him. And after looking through pages of Desire lists, I saw one deck that didn't play 4 Rite of Flame in the maindeck...it ran zero anywhere.

"but it was common practice at the time" Even if it was common practice(which no one else can seem to find), times change, amigo. Let's move along with them. The idea of 3DR 3ETW was back on page 5. Can we please leave it there? I don't think ANYONE wants to hit more than 1 DR in a game. I think there was one time I used 2 (one from MD, one wished) to nail 40+ Tendrils on an opponent with that much life.

I think that Infernal Contract and Ponder help sculpt your hand for the win, much like what was done in the grandfather decks of TES.

BreathWeapon
04-26-2008, 09:00 AM
Wtf is up with the 3 Diminishing Returns? Isn't that idea old and janky?

I found it. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=199979&postcount=90
I know a guy who runs a Rite of Flame in his Belcher Wishboard. He also runs a Burning Wish in the Wishboard. I lol'd irl at him. And after looking through pages of Desire lists, I saw one deck that didn't play 4 Rite of Flame in the maindeck...it ran zero anywhere.

"but it was common practice at the time" Even if it was common practice(which no one else can seem to find), times change, amigo. Let's move along with them. The idea of 3DR 3ETW was back on page 5. Can we please leave it there? I don't think ANYONE wants to hit more than 1 DR in a game. I think there was one time I used 2 (one from MD, one wished) to nail 40+ Tendrils on an opponent with that much life.

I think that Infernal Contract and Ponder help sculpt your hand for the win, much like what was done in the grandfather decks of TES.

It's in the middle of the TEPS thread, it looks like it was moved back into the MD for Burning Wish -> Channel the Suns, but regardless it's not a question of what's in Belcher or "times change," it's a matter of whether or not you want the utility of wishing for an accelerant or not.

I don't think Cabal Ritual is a good choice for acceleration to begin with, and the 2 Cabal Ritual and 2 Draw 4 version is just filler. I wont argue that Ponder isn't awesome, as I said I've been running 4 Ponder/3 Empty the Warrens for a few months now, there's just other configurations that deserve testing.

The 3 Diminishing Returns/3 Empty the Warrens list posted on page 5 and posted on the last page are separated by Manamorphose, which is by no means a trivial differentiation. Being able to support a set of Diminishing Returns that can be resolved on the first turn with Manamorphose (or set up with Brainstorm) is HUGE, because Diminishing Returns is the one card that can win the game all by itself. It's the equivalent of including SI's Draw 4 chain into the deck on a relative scale.

@Rockstar

4cc cards being Infernal Tutor "bricks" is a give and take, on the one hand it's more difficult to achieve Hellbent, and on the other hand you don't need to achieve Hellbent because the "bricks" are really outs in and of themselves. Being bricks isn't as important as the tactical pressure a set of Empty the Warrens puts on your opponent to counter your acceleration, or the hands you don't have to ship because you have a threat.

matelml
04-26-2008, 09:19 AM
I don't think everyone should attack BreathWeapon/the idea so much. I don't think it's better than the standard TES either, but it's an interesting idea to use Manamorphose. It's not like you are forced to play it or anything, let's just look what we can use Manamorphose for. I find it an interesting idea, but the Tutor shouldn't be Sb. I don't think 3 EtW is good either, but 4 Manamorphose+3 Diminishing Returns is testable.

BreathWeapon
04-26-2008, 10:08 AM
I don't think everyone should attack BreathWeapon/the idea so much. I don't think it's better than the standard TES either, but it's an interesting idea to use Manamorphose. It's not like you are forced to play it or anything, let's just look what we can use Manamorphose for. I find it an interesting idea, but the Tutor shouldn't be Sb. I don't think 3 EtW is good either, but 4 Manamorphose+3 Diminishing Returns is testable.

At least one person can be reasonable, I'm not sold on the SB Rite of Flame and Infernal Tutor either, but they were the most redundant cards to cut for 3 Empty the Warrens. You can just move Rite of Flame and Infernal Tutor back into the MD and replace them in the SB with Empty the Warrens, but there's a lot to be said about the Empty the Warrens and Bombs set up and how it baits control to spend its disruption on sup-optimal targets. You also get more use out of Empty the Warrens as you increase the use of Draw 7s, but I don't think there's any reason you can get away with only 1.

The 3 Diminishing Returns, 4 Manamorphose, 4 Tinder Wall set up works, but I think Manamorphose turning into a brick with out Diminishing Returns is one of its biggest drawbacks. Whether or not the deck can tolerate Manamorphose by itself is probably the biggest question.

r0ckstAr
04-26-2008, 12:05 PM
Now that you explained the 3-3, I think I'm gonna try out the manamorphose + returns setup; but to be honest I don't like relying on DR as it is always a bet, and in my experience, DR fizzles are one of the most frequent things that make me lose a game (along with lack of accel, duress/thoughtseize/therapy and a heavy pack of counters).

I think I'll miss the draw4s, but if they're replaced with draw7s, why not !

yawg07
04-26-2008, 02:21 PM
Why not? Because they AREN'T Draw7s
Sure, they draw you seven cards, but at the expense of 10 cards, and your yard.
Don't get me wrong, I love Diminishing Returns, one of the best cards in the deck, but 3x main?

I know Manamorphose does this, and Manamorphose does that, but really all it does is take up space.
TES is a mana hungry deck and if you are simply playing a cantrip to fix your mana and not add any, you are slowing down.
I'll admit there are situations it is good in, (add BW or RW) but I never seem to have a problem coming up with the right colors.


When you start putting together lists that have 3 "Draw7s" in them, it then loses consistency.
I sat this because the way TES wins is through a calculated series of events, that all involve cards that do the same thing every time.
Diminishing Returns is the only exception and it is most certainly not necessary to win with.
When the deck starts going "Okay I'll draw 7 and hope I see what I need!" it becomes a problem and loses its edge.

Besides, Empty the Warrens in multiples is not the way to win games, sure they're good, but why?
EtW is the most fragile kill mech for legacy combo to run, I'm not kidding, so why 3x?
Everyone I ever play has something to deal with it, unless you are dropping 12+ on turn one and you are the first player to go, it isnt worth it most of the time.


I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, it just seems so bad to have multiples of D.Returns and EtW main.
Also, I'm not completely dismissing Manamorphose, but to me it just doesn't seem to do what TES needs, add mana.
But who knows, it may show up as a two of from time to time in my list.

chokin
04-27-2008, 12:02 AM
Why not? Because they AREN'T Draw7s
Sure, they draw you seven cards, but at the expense of 10 cards, and your yard.
Don't get me wrong, I love Diminishing Returns, one of the best cards in the deck, but 3x main?

I know Manamorphose does this, and Manamorphose does that, but really all it does is take up space.
TES is a mana hungry deck and if you are simply playing a cantrip to fix your mana and not add any, you are slowing down.
I'll admit there are situations it is good in, (add BW or RW) but I never seem to have a problem coming up with the right colors.


When you start putting together lists that have 3 "Draw7s" in them, it then loses consistency.
I sat this because the way TES wins is through a calculated series of events, that all involve cards that do the same thing every time.
Diminishing Returns is the only exception and it is most certainly not necessary to win with.
When the deck starts going "Okay I'll draw 7 and hope I see what I need!" it becomes a problem and loses its edge.

Besides, Empty the Warrens in multiples is not the way to win games, sure they're good, but why?
EtW is the most fragile kill mech for legacy combo to run, I'm not kidding, so why 3x?
Everyone I ever play has something to deal with it, unless you are dropping 12+ on turn one and you are the first player to go, it isnt worth it most of the time.


I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, it just seems so bad to have multiples of D.Returns and EtW main.
Also, I'm not completely dismissing Manamorphose, but to me it just doesn't seem to do what TES needs, add mana.
But who knows, it may show up as a two of from time to time in my list.

I agree. DR feels like a Serum Powder when you have a bad hand, only it adds to the storm count and can be Chrome Mox imprinted. Or an out against heavy discard. 3 EtW in the main was in older TES lists and they also ran Goblin Warstrike in the board. People learned how to play against turn 1-2 "zOMG 12+ TOEKINZ" and it was abandoned. It is the weaker of the 2 kills in TES, but is very useful when you can't autokill with Tendrils.

I don't think that multiple DR's are the way to go. I prefer sculpting my hand with the Draw4s instead of throwing away what I have.

BreathWeapon
04-27-2008, 07:30 AM
Comparing Diminishing Returns to Serum Powder is just straight up ridiculous, in a deck that can resolve 100% of its hand on the same turn it can cast Diminishing Returns, the card is 100% card advantage. No other single card top decks Storm combo into a win like Diminishing Returns, drawing into it is like getting to start over from scratch after things go wrong.

People complain about Empty the Warrens a lot, but what they don't realize is that they are either misplaying Empty the Warrens or they would have mulliganed the hand other wise. Empty the Warrens has a subtle effect on the opponent, because he has to either keep or board in removal to deal with it or counter acceleration, and when you take away from the probability that you can resolve an Empty the Warrens, you just lose the dead card advantage and the ability to bait.

Both Empty the Warrens and Vexing Shusher pretty much do the same thing, they scare the shit out of your opponents and force them to either keep all of their removal in their MD or rape them when they SB it out.

I can understand hating Empty the Warrens if you play against Landstill all day, but if that's the case, you're playing the wrong Storm combo deck in that metagame any way.

zefhek
04-27-2008, 02:23 PM
to get this subtle effect of which you are speaking your opponent has to know that you 're playing with 3 empty the warrens, which won't be the case very often imo. having it as a backup plan fills the better role imo.

and returns is nothing more than a backup plan too, because when you get the chance to safely use iggy to ramp your storm count, then you'll never tutor or wish for a returns.

and after you've blown your hand a toptecked returns without mana does shit.

yawg07
04-27-2008, 06:17 PM
to get this subtle effect of which you are speaking your opponent has to know that you 're playing with 3 empty the warrens, which won't be the case very often imo. having it as a backup plan fills the better role imo.

and returns is nothing more than a backup plan too, because when you get the chance to safely use iggy to ramp your storm count, then you'll never tutor or wish for a returns.

and after you've blown your hand a toptecked returns without mana does shit.

I agree with nearly everything this person just said :D
I don't know if I COMPLETELY count D.Returns as backup, sometimes it's like...

"Okay, turn 2, I've Chanted them and I'm at 5 storm and while using Burning Wish with cracking 2 LEDs ...
well, no Infernal in my yard to IGG with so I go :u::u::u::b::b::b: and get Returns."

If you are at 5+ storm with 2 mana floating (particularly :u::b:) and you play D.Returns, you are highly likely to win.
Unlike Warrens where you can make 10-12 guys that they'll most likely E.Explosives or Deed away.



Main thing I disagree with ...


I can understand hating Empty the Warrens if you play against Landstill all day, but if that's the case, you're playing the wrong Storm combo deck in that metagame any way.

What? TES is practically built to combat blue decks!
If you like Warrens so much, why don't you just play belcher and just warrens every single game?

matelml
04-28-2008, 07:40 AM
If you are at 5+ storm with 2 mana floating (particularly :u::b:) and you play D.Returns, you are highly likely to win.
Unlike Warrens where you can make 10-12 guys that they'll most likely E.Explosives or Deed away.

This is very uncorrect preboard. Many decks have absolutely no answer at all to turn 2 EtW for more than 10 and the decks that do have an answer are more likely to not have it than to have it. Of course you are not going to cast EtW when you see your opponent has BG in play and you have a good chance of killing with ToA soon, but if you play the deck correct, EtW is a very strong card, just don't use it when you don't have to.


What? TES is practically built to combat blue decks!
Just because there are 4 Chants main? Is that something like Belcher is built to combat blue decks cause it has 3 Pyroblasts main? Or Landstill is built to beat Loam cause it has Crucibles main?

If you like Warrens so much, why don't you just play belcher and just warrens every single game?
Because Warrens is only strong when you get to decide when to use it and when not to. And of course because Belcher is a very bad deck compared to TES. This is like saying: "If you like Tendrils so much, why don't you play SI?"

I think you could be a little more respectful. I know the ideas Breathweapon presents aren't standard and don't look amazing, but why react so harsh? At least he can defend and explain them.

Bryant Cook
04-28-2008, 09:59 AM
I agree with nearly everything this person just said :D
I don't know if I COMPLETELY count D.Returns as backup, sometimes it's like...

"Okay, turn 2, I've Chanted them and I'm at 5 storm and while using Burning Wish with cracking 2 LEDs ...
well, no Infernal in my yard to IGG with so I go :u::u::u::b::b::b: and get Returns."

If you are at 5+ storm with 2 mana floating (particularly :u::b:) and you play D.Returns, you are highly likely to win.
Unlike Warrens where you can make 10-12 guys that they'll most likely E.Explosives or Deed away.



Main thing I disagree with ...



What? TES is practically built to combat blue decks!
If you like Warrens so much, why don't you just play belcher and just warrens every single game?

I agree with this, if you can float UB you can more than likely win off of D.Returns. I rarely ETW it's a back-up plan really, or a turn one play.

Between Chant and 5-6 blasts, I think it's fair to say that we're one of the better combo decks at fighting blue. Not to mention we get Vexing Shusher soon.

Arsenal
04-28-2008, 10:32 AM
FT is pretty good at fighting off blue as well, with Chant/Abeyance typically being run at 7-8 and maindeck solutions to permanent based hate (Counterbalance, etc).

yawg07
04-28-2008, 11:11 AM
This is very uncorrect preboard. Many decks have absolutely no answer at all to turn 2 EtW for more than 10 and the decks that do have an answer are more likely to not have it than to have it. Of course you are not going to cast EtW when you see your opponent has BG in play and you have a good chance of killing with ToA soon, but if you play the deck correct, EtW is a very strong card, just don't use it when you don't have to.

Okay that is a good point, I guess when I talk I almost always mean Post-Board matches.
Normally playing TES, you win game one. So the important two are games 2-3.

The different story is with Landstill. I'll lose game one and win games two/three against it.
I think the main problem is their mainboard stifle, normally against a thresh-style deck you can Chant, they'll FoW it and you'll combo.
Landstill just keeps an Island up, FoWs the Chant, then Stifles the Tendrils.


Just because there are 4 Chants main? Is that something like Belcher is built to combat blue decks cause it has 3 Pyroblasts main? Or Landstill is built to beat Loam cause it has Crucibles main?

No, I just mean how the deck applies itself. It's hard to explain.
4 Maindeck chants, then 4 SB Pyroblast, and in my case 2 Duress/Thoughtseize applies pressure to control decks pretty well.
I dunno, I've just always felt like it was the best combo deck I could be playing against blue.


Because Warrens is only strong when you get to decide when to use it and when not to. And of course because Belcher is a very bad deck compared to TES. This is like saying: "If you like Tendrils so much, why don't you play SI?"

Well he is playing 3x Warrens and going on abut how good it is.
If it is REALLY so hot, Belcher would do a lot better.

I just mean that more than one is really not so hot.
If you have three in maindeck and just side two out, I can see the thinking, but you could really have better kill there.


I think you could be a little more respectful. I know the ideas Breathweapon presents aren't standard and don't look amazing, but why react so harsh? At least he can defend and explain them.

Well, okay. I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, I didn't think I was being too hard on anyone.

Michael Keller
04-28-2008, 12:48 PM
Well he is playing 3x Warrens and going on abut how good it is.
If it is REALLY so hot, Belcher would do a lot better.

Not to rain on your parade, but Belcher is doing extremely well - that's why it's a DTB. Those decks, albeit the storm-count strategy, mark their cases by implementing two different win conditions. It's like Bryant said:
I rarely ETW it's a back-up plan really, or a turn one play. Warrens is a last-ditch effort in The Epic Storm, where as Belcher (variants) implement that strategy more often than casting a Goblin Charbelcher (ironically). There really is no comparison other than both decks rack up the spell count.

r0ckstAr
04-28-2008, 03:17 PM
Not to mention we get Vexing Shusher soon.

Is it really this amazing ? Seems a little expensive to me (2 mana + 1 for each counter the opponent uses)
What did you replaced with them ? Sideboard pyroblasts ?

J.V.
04-28-2008, 05:54 PM
Is it really this amazing ?

Last time I checked you have a year and a half to sculpt a hand against thresh so that part where you drop Shusher and shit on their CB/T that used to force TES to go off fairly quickly before Chant became much less effective do to multiple counters seems pretty good to me. Anyways, yes it is that good.

yawg07
04-28-2008, 07:22 PM
Everyone always wants to pay :rg: with every spell :tongue:
You don't have to :D All you really need to do is pay :rg::w: for Chant, or :rg::r: for Pyroblast targeting their Counterbalance.
Hell, add an :rg: to an Infernal/B.Wish that your devoting your LEDs to, game over!

BreathWeapon
04-29-2008, 01:52 PM
Well he is playing 3x Warrens and going on abut how good it is.
If it is REALLY so hot, Belcher would do a lot better.



What you fail to understand is that Empty the Warrens in TES is not the same as Empty the Warrens in Belcher, and Empty the Warrens in Belcher is not the same as Empty the Warrens in SITES etc.

In Belcher, Empty the Warrens is a win condition, the deck is built 100% to generate 10 storm and end the game before the opponent reaches turn 3 (or turn 2 if it uses Leyline of the Meek and/or Goblin Warstrike). In TES, Empty the Warrens is more versatile, you can either generate 10 storm and try and end the game before the opponent reaches turn 3 (or turn 2 if it uses Orim's Chant or Goblin Warstrike), or you can use Empty the Warrens to bait the opponent's counters on to your acceleration, or you can use Empty the Warrens for a small 6 to 8 token army to whittle the opponent down by using multiple attack phases and Orim's Chant Time Walks to the point where you can finish them off with Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor->Tendrils of Agony.

Trying to say, "if Empty the Warren is so good, why doesn't Belcher do better than TES?" is like saying, "if Force of Will is so good, why doesn't Landstill do better than Threshold?" While the card is identical in appearance in both decks, how it actually functions in both decks is radically different.

Jak
04-29-2008, 08:01 PM
I have only goldfished with Belcher, so I am not really sure, but can they even reliably get to 10 storm? They run no Igg, Draw 4s, etc and the only thing they have is DR. That means they need to have Wish and Led and then be able to draw into an EtW. In my experience, TES easily makes more tokens than Belcher. EtW is just weak right now because people are prepared for it. I would much rather run 3 tendrils than 3 EtW.

yawg07
04-29-2008, 10:39 PM
Yes yes, I know it does all those things. And yes I do get my wins out of it.
Whether I'm making 12 guys on turn one, or punishing an opponent who kept a creature-less hate-filled hand.
I didn't mean to come across hard, or ignorant about its potential, I guess I just wonder why so many?

Maybe it could be our metas? My meta has a good share of black/green decks, and ALL decks in the meta run SB answers to Warrens.
I get E.Plagues boarded in against me all the time, all the B/G decks and Landstill players have Deed mained.
All the blue players get their E.Explosives :/ And the other things have Propaganda effects, Pyroclasms, etc

EtW is terrible in my meta, but I can't say it doesn't work haha
What is your metagame like, BreathWeapon?

Michael Keller
04-30-2008, 12:09 AM
I have only goldfished with Belcher, so I am not really sure, but can they even reliably get to 10 storm?

All the time. And then some. Belcher doesn't run enough black to support Tendrils as a primary win-condition. T.E.S. does. Simple. Empty the Warrens would ideally seem like the weaker choice, but in reality it isn't. Putting your opponent on a two turn clock is ideal in any combo deck. Both decks have explosive first few turns, and getting ten tokens is almost too easy.

Belcher
Primary Win: Empty the Warrens.
Secondary Win: Goblin Charbelcher.

T.E.S.
Primary Win: Tendrils of Agony.
Secondary Win: Empty the Warrens.

Both decks use Diminishing Returns as a storm accelerator or win condition searcher.

b4r0n
04-30-2008, 03:40 AM
I have only goldfished with Belcher, so I am not really sure, but can they even reliably get to 10 storm?All the time. And then some.

No. This is definitely not true. On average, Belcher tends to generate 5-7 copies of Empty the Warrens, producing around 10-14 guys. The only way the deck would get 10 storm would be something like Grant, Petal, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, LED, Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor for Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens. Not so likely.


Trying to say, "if Empty the Warren is so good, why doesn't Belcher do better than TES?" is like saying, "if Force of Will is so good, why doesn't Landstill do better than Threshold?" While the card is identical in appearance in both decks, how it actually functions in both decks is radically different.

I think what's being asked is more to the effect of: "If you're able to win with Empty the Warrens, why not just play a deck that can play Warrens faster?" Belcher is definitely better at Emptying the Warrens for 10+ goblins on turn 1, while TES is better able to play slightly slower and win with Tendrils, protected by Orim's Chant. So, if EtW is a winning strategy, then Belcher seems like a better choice. In many metagames, this won't be true, and TES will be the better choice.

BreathWeapon
04-30-2008, 09:11 AM
No. This is definitely not true. On average, Belcher tends to generate 5-7 copies of Empty the Warrens, producing around 10-14 guys. The only way the deck would get 10 storm would be something like Grant, Petal, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, LED, Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor for Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens. Not so likely.



I think what's being asked is more to the effect of: "If you're able to win with Empty the Warrens, why not just play a deck that can play Warrens faster?" Belcher is definitely better at Emptying the Warrens for 10+ goblins on turn 1, while TES is better able to play slightly slower and win with Tendrils, protected by Orim's Chant. So, if EtW is a winning strategy, then Belcher seems like a better choice. In many metagames, this won't be true, and TES will be the better choice.

I believe Jak meant 5 Storm for 10 Goblin Tokens, otherwise his comment makes no sense, if Belcher could reach 10 storm it would just cast Tendrils of Agony.

Comparing Warrens in Belcher and comparing Warrens in TES makes no sense, just because I use Warrens in TES doesn't mean I should/want to play Belcher instead. Belcher is 63% reliant on winning via Warrens, where TES isn't committed to using Warrens at all, that's a big difference.

Bryant Cook
04-30-2008, 09:38 AM
All the time. And then some. Belcher doesn't run enough black to support Tendrils as a primary win-condition. T.E.S. does. Simple. Empty the Warrens would ideally seem like the weaker choice, but in reality it isn't. Putting your opponent on a two turn clock is ideal in any combo deck. Both decks have explosive first few turns, and getting ten tokens is almost too easy.

Belcher
Primary Win: Empty the Warrens.
Secondary Win: Goblin Charbelcher.

T.E.S.
Primary Win: Tendrils of Agony.
Secondary Win: Empty the Warrens.

Both decks use Diminishing Returns as a storm accelerator or win condition searcher.

Hollywood, theres no need to get defensive over your pet deck every time the word "Belcher" appears in a thread. Calm down big guy. ;-p

What they're trying to say is it's easier and more efficient for TES to create storm more reliably than Belcher. This is true because of maindeck Ill-Gotten Gains, Brainstorm/Ponder, Diminishing Returns, and Infernal Contract in addition to these cards in the sideboard. Where as Belcher has a singleton Diminishing Returns in the SB as it's only storm generator.

I agree with most of the people in this thread that Empty The Warrens doesn't belong as a three of. Hell, I was considering cutting it in my newest TES list which will be out soon (Working on playtesting). Three Diminishing Returns and three Empty the Warrens is a bit ridiculous, whoever said that their hands would be cluttered up with 4cc cards is absolutely correct. It'd be terrible.

As for newer cards I was working on a 52 card TES list with Street Wraith and Manamorphose which was terrible, Ponder is much better than these options. While ponder costs you mana the card quality is very worth it. I don't think Manamorphose will be worth it in the long run, it's no different than Street Wraith in TES. We don't need filler slots, we need gas.

With Vexing Shusher comes a big change to the sideboard, currently I'm narrowing the sideboard down. Cutting a lot of wish targets so I can support more answers for hate and blue. 4x Vexing Shusher, 3-4x Blasts, and I want to find room for more Shattering Sprees.

BreathWeapon
04-30-2008, 11:42 AM
Testing stuff aside, I agree 100% on Ponder, that card has been the difference between mulligans, turn 2 wins and ending the game after Diminishing Returns so often I can't see a reason not to run it as a 4 of.

3 Empty the Warrens is arguable, I think it comes down to play style/metagame choices, but cutting Empty the Warrens altogether is atrocious. Even if you never cast Empty the Warrens, it's preventing Meddling Mage/Runed Halo from naming Tendrils of Agony, and Diminishing Returns from removing both kill conditions for Infernal Tutor.

Jak
04-30-2008, 07:45 PM
In Belcher, Empty the Warrens is a win condition, the deck is built 100% to generate 10 storm and end the game before the opponent reaches turn 3 (or turn 2 if it uses Leyline of the Meek and/or Goblin Warstrike).

Do you read what you write Breath?

I liked 3 EtW when I first started playing the deck because you got those hands where you didn't need to tutor for it or anything, but those days are gone. It was too easy to wipe the board and you were just stuck. I would run a 2nd Tendrils over another EtW anyday.

BreathWeapon
04-30-2008, 07:57 PM
Do you read what you write Breath?

I liked 3 EtW when I first started playing the deck because you got those hands where you didn't need to tutor for it or anything, but those days are gone. It was too easy to wipe the board and you were just stuck. I would run a 2nd Tendrils over another EtW anyday.

Yes?!

Those days aren't gone, they're just on leap year for some people. Threshold doesn't run enough Engineered Explosives or Stifles to relegate the card to the SB, until I see Stifle + Wasteland as opposed to Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top based aggro control, they're staying in the MD.

It's relative, let it go.

Bryant Cook
05-01-2008, 02:28 PM
The Decklist
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Wipe Away

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cruel Bargain
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Thoughtsieze
SB:1 Pyroclasm
SB:1 Shattering Spree
SB:4 Vexing Shusher
SB:3 Pyroblast

This is what I've been testing, It's been incredibly solid and has been doing great against Threshold.

zefhek
05-01-2008, 03:55 PM
you must be swinging this baby like a dancing star when you can "afford" to wield a random wipe away ;D

Michael Keller
05-01-2008, 04:07 PM
The deck's ability draw a lot of cards and search for whatever it wants absolutely warrants a singleton Wipe Away, which, suffice to say, cannot be countered.

BreathWeapon
05-01-2008, 04:23 PM
The deck's ability draw a lot of cards and search for whatever it wants absolutely warrants a singleton Wipe Away, which, suffice to say, cannot be countered.

What's he going to do, Infernal Tutor for it? I doubt Brainstorm and Ponder is enough to find Wipe Away when you need it, and drawing Wipe Away when you don't need it is insufferable.

Just run 4 Ponder.

Michael Keller
05-01-2008, 04:30 PM
What's he going to do, Infernal Tutor for it? I doubt Brainstorm and Ponder is enough to find Wipe Away when you need it, and drawing Wipe Away when you don't need it is insufferable.

Just run 4 Ponder.

Right, but it offers you outs. Instead of wasting a Burning Wish to stop a Dreadnought, now you can simply bring it back to an opponent's hand. The Wipe Away serves as a multilateral Time Walk (like Moment's Peace in Landstill), which in combo's case, is a good thing.

EDIT: I was a little confused about the 10 storm-count thing earlier (apologies). 5-7 storm count in Belcher is of course the norm.

zefhek
05-01-2008, 04:48 PM
getting double blue to cast whipe away won't save you any resources compared to wishing for a shattering spree and casting it, most of the time.

for serving the uses you mentioned i can think of better bounce. rushing river can even bounce two targets -.-

for nuking counterbalance krosan grip eats this, btw. (it won't produce blue on a chrome mox though)

matelml
05-01-2008, 04:55 PM
Right, but it offers you outs. Instead of wasting a Burning Wish to stop a Dreadnought, now you can simply bring it back to an opponent's hand. The Wipe Away serves as a multilateral Time Walk (like Moment's Peace in Landstill), which in combo's case, is a good thing.

EDIT: I was a little confused about the 10 storm-count thing earlier (apologies). 5-7 storm count in Belcher is of course the norm.

You wont be able to find the Wipe Away when you need it and when you won't need it it'll clog op the hand just like the 2-3 Diminishing returns. It doesn't make any sense at all to play 1 Wipe Away mainboard.

Michael Keller
05-01-2008, 04:58 PM
You wont be able to find the Wipe Away when you need it and when you won't need it it'll clog op the hand just like the 2-3 Diminishing returns. It doesn't make any sense at all to play 1 Wipe Away mainboard.

Wipe Away is functionally not even close to Diminishing Returns, so there is no comparison.

Plus, Bryant is playing a lone copy, so you know when you're in top-deck mode and you have an Infernal Tutor in your hand, it's not so much a useless card (although you could go for other outs). I can see Bryant's inclusion of it. It's an open slot.

Illissius
05-01-2008, 05:37 PM
It's been incredibly solid and has been doing great against Threshold.

By "great" here you mean "less terribly than Storm combo of all sorts usually does", and not actually "a very positive matchup", right?

BreathWeapon
05-01-2008, 06:08 PM
By "great" here you mean "less terribly than Storm combo of all sorts usually does", and not actually "a very positive matchup", right?

It's not in TES's favor, but it's not as lop sided as it was before with Vexing Shusher coming in from the SB; Counterbalance isn't a guaranteed WTF PWNed any more.

The deck is gaining a lot of ground post Shadow Moore.

BreathWeapon
05-01-2008, 06:17 PM
Wipe Away is functionally not even close to Diminishing Returns, so there is no comparison.

Plus, Bryant is playing a lone copy, so you know when you're in top-deck mode and you have an Infernal Tutor in your hand, it's not so much a useless card (although you could go for other outs). I can see Bryant's inclusion of it. It's an open slot.

It's not about comparing the two cards so much as pointing out the questionable arguments for it's inclusion. Diminishing Returns and Wipe Away are both "bricks" for Infernal Tutor, but the difference is Diminishing Returns is a threat and Wipe Away is an answer, so it seems paradoxical for the "bricks" argument to apply in one case and not the other, especially when threats>answers.

I guarantee Ponder # 4 wins more games than a singleton Wipe Away does, the only open slots in this deck are really the 2 Draw 4s.

Bryant Cook
05-01-2008, 07:02 PM
I'm still unsure on Wipeaway, I've only tested a few match-ups and it was good in the testing I did. If it remains I'm unsure. However, it was decent when I had it. Wipe away may become ponder #4 who knows. I was getting sick of Cabal Ritual when I cut it, which was the reason for the testing.

Finding wipeaway isn't as bad as people say, between 4x brainstorm, 3x ponder, 2x draw 4, and Diminishing Returns. You don't ave the power to tutor for it, but the option is still there.

More than likely it will become Ponder number 4.

BreathWeapon
05-02-2008, 10:10 PM
Odd ball suggestion, but should we reconsider Death Wish in the open slots now that it can tutor for Vexing Shusher in the SB? That seems brutal against traditional control ala Landstill or U/w.

Jak
05-02-2008, 10:17 PM
This may be a retarded thing to consider, but I was just wondering if anyone had tested Mystical Tutor recently? FT and TES are really different in how they play out, but one of the strong things about FT that TES doesn't have is ways to tutor for the best stuff like Wipe Away, Extirpate, Chant, DR, etc. I'll try to test it, but just throwing it out there. I would probably do this:

-1 Draw 4 (1 left MD)
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Orim's Chant
-1 Other Card

+3 Mystical Tutor
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Extirpate

Thoughts? I really don't want to turn TES into FT at all because TES is way more explosive. I just want some MD ways to get rid of CB and destry control decks. Extirpate is awesome.

BreathWeapon
05-03-2008, 10:48 AM
I did, TES can't withstand the card disadvantage and tempo loss to find Orim's Chant, you're better of just Brainstorming/Pondering for what you need while maintaining card parody.

Enlightened Tutor is a jank idea tho', being able to grab LED is better than being able to grab anything else, because it's the only card you can't run in pseudo copies like Orim's Chant and Abeyance or Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish etc., and you could tutor for Engineered Explosives to blow up Counterbalance.

Lim Dul's Vault could be worth a shot, but it's kind of slow.

ninjabear
05-03-2008, 10:57 PM
I'm still unsure on Wipeaway, I've only tested a few match-ups and it was good in the testing I did.

What about Repeal? Single blue and not a dead card when you find nothing to bounce (as you can bounce your own Led / Petal to generate storm). Nothing overly exciting, but it has less chances to be a dead card.

Jak
05-04-2008, 02:06 AM
What about Repeal? Single blue and not a dead card when you find nothing to bounce (as you can bounce your own Led / Petal to generate storm). Nothing overly exciting, but it has less chances to be a dead card.

Repeal doesn't have split second. :/

Bryant Cook
05-04-2008, 09:48 AM
Yesterday I ended up taking first place in my first local event since I've been back from college. I ended up running my latest list but with 4 Ponder and 2 Paradise. Both of these figurations actually won me a round, I'll explain. 4 Ponder won be a round from I ETW on turn 1 for 16 against Landstill, swung, he engineered explosives. I cast 3 Ponder (shuffling all 3 times) and 2 Brainstorms looking for Tendrils. A random draw off Ponder found Tendrils and I ended up winning game one because of it. Game two, I draw Shusher and slam it down turn 2 after I played Land, Mox because he wasted my first land. Turn 3 combo out because he was afraid to use his force, ends up using it. I just pay a red and continue comboing. I end up with a bad returns hand and lose. Game three looks a lot like game one except I Brainstorm for storm twice, then chant, storm to 9 then play my Tendrils from the opening grip.

The second round Shusher single handily beat a tog control variant. Because he sided out all of his removal and he sat there making everything uncounterable.

EDIT: All together I was 4-0 against, Fetch Tendrils, Landstill, Tog Variant, Dragon Stompy.

BreathWeapon
05-04-2008, 11:30 AM
Undiscovered Paradise and Ponder is bad, the deck is going to have more turn 1 plays to set up turn 2 wins, and you have greater selection of land drops from your cantripping/shuffling. If you bounce a land back to your hand after cantripping, it's like casting a Time Walk on your opponent, and you take away the luxury of hitting your land drops for two, or even three, turns in a row.

I've seriously lost more game to Unidscovered Paradise bounces than Diminishing Returns fizzles, you should be running some combination of Tarnished Citadel, Hidden Orchard or Glimmervoid with 4 Ponder. Just start every goldfish with an Undiscovered Paradise and cantrip in hand, you'll see how awful that card is in no time at all. There's just no point in running a land with a definite, irrevocable draw back that affects your ability to combo compared to a land that just does damage. Hidden Orchard or Glimmervoid are probably the worst of three options, but at least the blocker vs Empty the Warrens tokens or the storm you lose from Glimmervoid is less damaging to the combo turn than reducing your over all mana production and color selection.

FoolofaTook
05-04-2008, 11:56 AM
Lim Dul's Vault could be worth a shot, but it's kind of slow.

This is neither here not there for TES, but Lim-Dul's Vault with Street Wraith is really kind of amazing.

Bryant Cook
05-04-2008, 12:20 PM
Undiscovered Paradise and Ponder is bad, the deck is going to have more turn 1 plays to set up turn 2 wins, and you have greater selection of land drops from your cantripping/shuffling. If you bounce a land back to your hand after cantripping, it's like casting a Time Walk on your opponent, and you take away the luxury of hitting your land drops for two, or even three, turns in a row.

I've seriously lost more game to Unidscovered Paradise bounces than Diminishing Returns fizzles, you should be running some combination of Tarnished Citadel, Hidden Orchard or Glimmervoid with 4 Ponder. Just start every goldfish with an Undiscovered Paradise and cantrip in hand, you'll see how awful that card is in no time at all. There's just no point in running a land with a definite, irrevocable draw back that affects your ability to combo compared to a land that just does damage. Hidden Orchard or Glimmervoid are probably the worst of three options, but at least the blocker vs Empty the Warrens tokens or the storm you lose from Glimmervoid is less damaging to the combo turn than reducing your over all mana production and color selection.

I understand what you're saying, don't get me wrong. I forgot to swap the Tarnished Citadel in yesterday before the event. However, round 3 I was at 1 from double Contract (First Contract put me to 8, 2 cities, Goyf swing, 2 life, contract again, 1, then Mox, Brainstorm and I needed to hit 2 mana sources that dealt me 0 damage. I hit paradise and SSG. Lands that don't deal you damage are huge. I'm not saying I'm keeping 2 paradise, I may, but they're definitely not as bad as you say.

None the less, I definitly agree with you on Ponder. I'm now a huge fan of 4.

EDIT: New list in opening post.

Jak
05-04-2008, 12:47 PM
What did you cut? I like the idea of 4 Ponder and Will test it out. Did you cut Cabal Ritul? I have not been liking them and looking at replacing them by adding more EtW, Tendrils, but Ponder seems like it could be just as good.

Also, Shusher just sounds like he is kicking ass. Even if the Tog player kept in his removal, it still makes his deck weaker against TES because he didn't side in hate. I am going to try and pick up a playset when I go to my cardshop.

Edit- I would love to just see your full list.

BreathWeapon
05-04-2008, 01:36 PM
I understand what you're saying, don't get me wrong. I forgot to swap the Tarnished Citadel in yesterday before the event. However, round 3 I was at 1 from double Contract (First Contract put me to 8, 2 cities, Goyf swing, 2 life, contract again, 1, then Mox, Brainstorm and I needed to hit 2 mana sources that dealt me 0 damage. I hit paradise and SSG. Lands that don't deal you damage are huge. I'm not saying I'm keeping 2 paradise, I may, but they're definitely not as bad as you say.

None the less, I definitly agree with you on Ponder. I'm now a huge fan of 4.

EDIT: New list in opening post.

I find that Tarnished Citadel reduces your chances of making a come back when you fall behind (more life loss = less top decking), while Undiscovered Paradise increases your chances of falling behind in the first place. Hyperbole aside, I do think Undiscovered Paradise is the worst card in the deck, it's just a sinister card that doesn't reveal how bad it is until it decides to fuck you over.

On another subject, I've been having a ton of fun with a Doomsday in the SB, if you MD a Draw 4, you can put some really cool stacks together. It's probably unnecessary, but it can't hurt if you have the SB space.

Jak
05-04-2008, 01:44 PM
I think the idea is cool, but my SB is full.

4 Pyroblast
4 Shusher
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 DR
1 Igg
1 Contract
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility / Hull Breach / Puroclasm / Duress

Mental
05-04-2008, 02:08 PM
Shusher is making me really want to pick this deck back up. It just seems to ridiculous against almost every deck that posed TES a problem.

That said, I HATE 5C lands 9-10 in this deck, no matter what they are. A good alternative can't seem to be found to the really bad options that are out there. Chrome Mox isn't too hot either.

Does anyone think that this deck would be stronger with some combination of Fetches instead of the 5C lands and maybe 1 Chrome Mox? It's unlikely, but it seems that it could be worth testing, especially because the Cantrip count has gone up so much.

Bryant Cook
05-04-2008, 02:10 PM
Does anyone think that this deck would be stronger with some combination of Fetches instead of the 5C lands and maybe 1 Chrome Mox? It's unlikely, but it seems that it could be worth testing, especially because the Cantrip count has gone up so much.

I tried this about a month ago, no lie. TES can't support fetchlands because we're too reliant on the 4 colors that we play. It seemed like every game I was cut off a color that I needed.

zefhek
05-04-2008, 03:16 PM
anyone here knows the number of how often this deck craps out after a Dreturns with U floating (and storm ~5)?

sth like 3-4 out of 10 times ?

Bryant Cook
05-04-2008, 03:17 PM
anyone here knows the number of how often this deck craps out after a Dreturns with U floating (and storm ~5)?

sth like 3-4 out of 10 times ?

Normally, I have a BU from 2 LEDs, I don't know how you would just have U.

But on average with BU, its around 2 out of 10.

zefhek
05-04-2008, 03:31 PM
f.e. this hand on the play:

Petal, Petal, Rite, City, Infernal, LED, Chant


after city, petal, petal, rite, led, infernal, ir sac led for UUU, tutor up dreturns, the dreturns resolves with a petal "floating".

2 out of 10 with BU floating indicates that going for Chant + 14 gobs would be the better play with the aforementioned hand ~~


btw normaly i don't have 2 leds :D


btw i am often confronted with the dicision between 12+ gobs turn 1 on the play or dreturns with one mana floating, so i wanted to know the risk for going with dreturns. i guess going for the gobs is the better play in most of the cases then.

Jak
05-04-2008, 04:23 PM
f.e. this hand on the play:

Petal, Petal, Rite, City, Infernal, LED, Chant


after city, petal, petal, rite, led, infernal, ir sac led for UUU, tutor up dreturns, the dreturns resolves with a petal "floating".

2 out of 10 with BU floating indicates that going for Chant + 14 gobs would be the better play with the aforementioned hand ~~


btw normaly i don't have 2 leds :D


btw i am often confronted with the dicision between 12+ gobs turn 1 on the play or dreturns with one mana floating, so i wanted to know the risk for going with dreturns. i guess going for the gobs is the better play in most of the cases then.

Just go for EtW in this case. I always like making Goblins that will win in 2 turns. Unless your facing a deck with answers to it or will beat you before then, just make the safe play.

Also, just got back from the card shop and picked up 4 Shushers, 1 Tarnished Citadel, and a Slithermuse. I am really excited to start testing them all.

By the way, can you post your list Bryant?

Jak
05-04-2008, 06:00 PM
Okay, finally found the list :cool: . Did Slithermuse not work out? I just picked one up so I am testing it in place of one draw 4.

Bryant Cook
05-04-2008, 06:02 PM
Okay, finally found the list :cool: . Did Slithermuse not work out? I just picked one up so I am testing it in place of one draw 4.

Slithermuse is great in goldfishing, awful in actual game play. Try it and find out for your self.

By the way, your sideboard, four blast is too much. In my testing with Shusher, if you have a shusher and blast it hand it's kind of irrelevant unless blowing up counterbalance. Pyroblast was there to counter a counter on Chant. When Chant is uncounterable, blast loses some value.

Jak
05-04-2008, 06:06 PM
Slithermuse is great in goldfishing, awful in actual game play. Try it and find out for your self.

By the way, your sideboard, four blast is too much. In my testing with Shusher, if you have a shusher and blast it hand it's kind of irrelevant unless blowing up counterbalance. Pyroblast was there to counter a counter on Chant. When Chant is uncounterable, blast loses some value.

Okay I'll test with 3. I have been wanting room for another Shattering Spree because I hate DS or a Duress (Thoughtseize when I pick one up).

I'll keep testing it but I do see where it sucks. Drawing it late hurts. I still get a boner thinking of playing it after I LED first turn.

yawg07
05-04-2008, 06:38 PM
If I'm going into a returns with one mana floating, I ALWAYS try to make sure it is BLACK.
It is just always the best, it is easier to get red after a returns due to SSG, and having the black to cast that dark rit or tutor is so crucial.

And MAN Shusher is ridiculous. Now I'm no longer afraid to bust my pair of LEDs into a tutor.
They have to leave in removal, and if they do, they have to board out relevant cards for hate. :wink:

Bryant Cook
05-05-2008, 11:23 AM
On another subject, I've been having a ton of fun with a Doomsday in the SB, if you MD a Draw 4, you can put some really cool stacks together. It's probably unnecessary, but it can't hurt if you have the SB space.

I was thinking about this all day yesterday, its damn near impossible to win with Doomsday in the same turn. You Burning Wish (1R), Doomsday (1RBBB), you need a draw spell 1RBBBU or 1RBBBBBB, why not just Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns. You can't use LED and Doomsday since you won't have a draw spell.

chokin
05-05-2008, 12:51 PM
Shusher is awesome, no doubt. He reminds me of Xantid Swarm in a way though. You play him and combo on the next turn, ideally. Mostly because you want your mana to use him/otherspells. Another reason why he reminds me of Swarm is that he can be hit by removal. If resolved and sticking, I'd say this replaces Blast.

Doomsday looked interesting, but I'm not sold.

Post your list please Bryant.

Bryant Cook
05-05-2008, 01:05 PM
It's on the opening post.

BreathWeapon
05-05-2008, 01:23 PM
I was thinking about this all day yesterday, its damn near impossible to win with Doomsday in the same turn. You Burning Wish (1R), Doomsday (1RBBB), you need a draw spell 1RBBBU or 1RBBBBBB, why not just Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns. You can't use LED and Doomsday since you won't have a draw spell.

Well, if Ill Gotten Gains is an option, then there's no reason to use Diminishing Returns or Doomsday at all, but if Ill Gotten Gains isn't an option, then it's a question of whether or not you want to risk a Draw 7 fizzle + refilling your opponent's hand vs passing the turn.

Doomsday is more of an anti-Landstill card, if they don't have a clock and they don't have a lock piece, you can just tutor for Doomsday and win on the next turn with out LED.

It's not impossible to win on the same turn, it just requires 1R + BBB + U into Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Contract, Ill Gotten Gains and Tendrils of Agony. You can pull it off with LED(s) no problem, it's like tutoring for Ill Gotten Gains with Infernal Tutor in the graveyard, but in this case you just need a cantrip in your hand instead of a tutor in your graveyard.

Like I said, it's a marginally useful card, you'll find scenarios where it can be awesome and you'll find scenarios where you can just tutor for something else. It's really no different than any other wish target in that respect.

Bryant Cook
05-05-2008, 01:26 PM
Well, if Ill Gotten Gains is an option, then there's no reason to use Diminishing Returns or Doomsday at all, but if Ill Gotten Gains isn't an option, then it's a question of whether or not you want to risk a Draw 7 fizzle + refilling your opponent's hand vs passing the turn.

Doomsday is more of an anti-Landstill card, if they don't have a clock and they don't have a lock piece, you can just tutor for Doomsday and win on the next turn with out LED.

It's not impossible to win on the same turn, it just requires 1R + BBB + U into Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Contract, Ill Gotten Gains and Tendrils of Agony. You can pull it off with LED(s) no problem, it's like tutoring for Ill Gotten Gains with Infernal Tutor in the graveyard, but in this case you just need a cantrip in your hand instead of a tutor in your graveyard.

Like I said, it's a marginally useful card, you'll find scenarios where it can be awesome and you'll find scenarios where you can just tutor for something else. It's really no different than any other wish target in that respect.

It seems like theres better use for sideboard slots than a Doomsday, do we really need three storm generators? I'm having a hard enough time finding room for an Infernal Contract in my sideboard.

BreathWeapon
05-05-2008, 01:43 PM
It seems like theres better use for sideboard slots than a Doomsday, do we really need three storm generators? I'm having a hard enough time finding room for an Infernal Contract in my sideboard.

I was just experimenting with the convergance between a SB Doomsday and a MD Infernal Contract, it's by no means necessary, but it's an interesting options for people willing to forego a SB slot.

You could probably find the room if you cut back on the Pyroblasts, can you really MD more than 8 disruption pieces with out slowing down to a crawl game 2? I haven't needed more than 8 Chant/Shusher vs most of the Landstill/Threshold decks I've run across, you could be better off with Shattering Spree or Serenity.

Edit: Or you can truncate the Cleanfall and Shattering Spree into Hull Breach, I think the Draw 4 is way more important than two mass removal slots instead of one pin point removal slot that can serve as mass removal to, or you can drop Thoughtseize for it. Baiting with a threat is usually better than wishing for disruption any way.

Bryant Cook
05-05-2008, 03:14 PM
I was just experimenting with the convergance between a SB Doomsday and a MD Infernal Contract, it's by no means necessary, but it's an interesting options for people willing to forego a SB slot.

You could probably find the room if you cut back on the Pyroblasts, can you really MD more than 8 disruption pieces with out slowing down to a crawl game 2? I haven't needed more than 8 Chant/Shusher vs most of the Landstill/Threshold decks I've run across, you could be better off with Shattering Spree or Serenity.

Edit: Or you can truncate the Cleanfall and Shattering Spree into Hull Breach, I think the Draw 4 is way more important than two mass removal slots instead of one pin point removal slot that can serve as mass removal to, or you can drop Thoughtseize for it. Baiting with a threat is usually better than wishing for disruption any way.

Cleanfall and Shattering Spree are both needed due to casting costs and what they get around - Counterbalance and Chalice. As for Thoughtsieze, I wish for it enough to keep it. My reasoning for cutting Infernal Contract was for one more mana you can Diminishing Returns for a similar effect.

BreathWeapon
05-05-2008, 03:49 PM
Cleanfall and Shattering Spree are both needed due to casting costs and what they get around - Counterbalance and Chalice. As for Thoughtsieze, I wish for it enough to keep it. My reasoning for cutting Infernal Contract was for one more mana you can Diminishing Returns for a similar effect.

Isn't it idealistic to assume that Chalice of the Void wont be set at 2 or Counterbalance wont reveal at 2 when you Burning Wish for your answer? Non Tomb/City mana bases can't set Chalice of the Void at 2, or wont set Chalice of the Void at 2 before it sets Chalice(s) of the Void at 0 and/or 1, so Burning Wish for Hull Breach should be good against Chalice of the Void most of the time. I can see Cleanfall against Counterbalance(s), but assuming a pre-emptive wish for Cleanfall is just a waste of resources compared to a pre-emptive wish for discard, Hull Breach should be fine there to.

Comparing Diminishing Returns to Infernal Contract is like comparing night and day, you wish for Diminishing Returns when you are ready to go off, and you wish for Infernal Contract while you are setting up. 2UU vs BBB leads to Diminishing Returns and Infernal Contract being opposing compliments to each other, since both of their CCs are restrictive, you'll often have the mana requirements for one but not the other, so you need to be able to choose from both.

Cutting the SB Draw 4 for a redundant disruption card just seems bad, I wish for a Draw 4 all the time, I don't "wish" I have a Pyroblast sitting around.

I think the Draw 4 has earned it's permanent slot in the SB, I'd sooner cut Pyroclasm.

Bryant Cook
05-05-2008, 03:58 PM
Isn't it idealistic to assume that Chalice of the Void wont be set at 2 or Counterbalance wont reveal at 2 when you Burning Wish for your answer? Non Tomb/City mana bases can't set Chalice of the Void at 2, or wont set Chalice of the Void at 2 before it sets Chalice(s) of the Void at 0 and/or 1, so Burning Wish for Hull Breach should be good against Chalice of the Void most of the time. I can see Cleanfall against Counterbalance(s), but assuming a pre-emptive wish for Cleanfall is just a waste of resources compared to a pre-emptive wish for discard, Hull Breach should be fine there to.

Comparing Diminishing Returns to Infernal Contract is like comparing night and day, you wish for Diminishing Returns when you are ready to go off, and you wish for Infernal Contract while you are setting up. 2UU vs BBB leads to Diminishing Returns and Infernal Contract being opposing compliments to each other, since both of their CCs are restrictive, you'll often have the mana requirements for one but not the other, so you need to be able to choose from both.

Cutting the SB Draw 4 for a redundant disruption card just seems bad, I wish for a Draw 4 all the time, I don't "wish" I have a Pyroblast sitting around.

I think the Draw 4 has earned it's permanent slot in the SB, I'd sooner cut Pyroclasm.

Chalice is very rarely set at 2. Its usually 0 and 1, way before 2. As for counterbalance, I generally try and bait before ramming a Burning Wish blindly into counterbalance. Shattering Spree destroys multiple Chalices and Trinispheres along with other troublesome artifacts.

I kind of agree with you on Returns vs Contract, however, I'm unsure on going down to 2 blasts. I'll try it because blast was weak with Shusher on the table.

BreathWeapon
05-05-2008, 04:23 PM
Well sure, but double Chalice of the Void is kind of absurd, you're more likely to see Chalice of the Void and Pyrostatic Pillar etc. at that rate. If you're facing that much permanent based hate, you need to be SBing in Shattering Spree(s) and not wishing for them.

There's nothing Blasts do that Shusher doesn't do, IMO, they made sense when they were protecting Orim's Chant from Force of Will or countering/removing Counterbalance, but now that Shusher does all of that (relatively speaking) and more by itself, I think we can safely cut them.

Edit: Unless you actually need that much disruption vs control, if Pyroblast is doing anything relevant ATM, it's countering Hydroblast on Vexing Shusher.

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach/Cleanfall
1 Pyroclasm
4 Shattering Spree (Serenity could be stronger)
4 Vexing Shusher

That seems balanced, and you should kick Tomb/City decks right in the nuts.

zefhek
05-05-2008, 04:38 PM
that sb looks good, i agree that 8 hate cards should be enough along with 4-8 cantrips (depending on how many you side out for shushers) :/

BreathWeapon
05-05-2008, 04:54 PM
that sb looks good, i agree that 8 hate cards should be enough along with 4-8 cantrips (depending on how many you side out for shushers) :/

Are people SBing out cantrips over SSG for disruption?

zefhek
05-05-2008, 05:30 PM
i sidet out 2 ponder 2 cabal 1 ssg 1 mox for 4 blast 2 insects before shusher on the old list (and yes i played 2 insects in the side).

haven't had time to test those shushers until now. (but i guess i'll side out sth. like 1 mox 2 ssg and 1 ponder for it)

Jak
05-05-2008, 07:20 PM
Since people are posting their SB, I'll post mine. Still trying different things, but this is what I like.

1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 Igg
1 DR
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility - may become Draw 4 or SS
1 Hull Breach - may become Draw 4 or SS
1 Pyroclasm
3 Pyroblast
4 Shusher

I like having multiple hate on stuff because of Runed Halo coming out. I hate DS so I have stuff for that. It may be a bit much but I like it.

For Sbing I side out 4 Mox and 3 Cantrips against Thresh. Landstill is 3 Mox and 4 SSG. Not sure if that is the best but its what I do.

b4r0n
05-05-2008, 07:36 PM
Is Vexing Shusher considered to be a better option than Xantid Swarm solely because of Counterbalance? Against regular countermagic, the two seem relatively equivalent (both will generally require you to untap with them in play, both will die to the same removal), while Shusher is clearly more effective against Counterbalance. This seems to be the primary reason for running Shusher, correct? On a related note, have you found that you have enough mana to support Shusher effectively against an active Counterbalance and Top?

Jak
05-05-2008, 07:54 PM
Is Vexing Shusher considered to be a better option than Xantid Swarm solely because of Counterbalance? Against regular countermagic, the two seem relatively equivalent (both will generally require you to untap with them in play, both will die to the same removal), while Shusher is clearly more effective against Counterbalance. This seems to be the primary reason for running Shusher, correct? On a related note, have you found that you have enough mana to support Shusher effectively against an active Counterbalance and Top?

Uhh it can't be countered. Dodges Chalice also. It is just better. Don't play suboptimal cards because of cost. More! Can be used when it came into play.

b4r0n
05-05-2008, 08:13 PM
Uhh it can't be countered. Dodges Chalice also. It is just better. Don't play suboptimal cards because of cost. More! Can be used when it came into play.

Is the uncounterability worth the extra mana in his cost, as well as the need to invest an additional mana in his ability in order to deal with the counter that would have been spent on the Shusher? In other words, you're paying R/G R/G for Shusher, then R/G to deal with the counter in their hand when they use it, versus G for Xantid, which either strips the counter from their hand or nullifies it the next turn.

Regarding Chalice, I'm currently running 4 Shattering Sprees in my board, so those would come before Shusher would. I suppose I could see bringing in Shusher in addition, but generally I find the 3 Sprees + Wishing for the 4th to be enough hate. Speaking of sufficient hate, aren't Shushers + Chants + Blasts slightly excessive for beating blue? Do you find that this dilutes the deck too much?

I'm genuinely curious about this. I'm not that impressed by Shusher, and I'd like to understand why people have found him to be optimal.

Jak
05-05-2008, 08:22 PM
Is the uncounterability worth the extra mana in his cost, as well as the need to invest an additional mana in his ability in order to deal with the counter that would have been spent on the Shusher? In other words, you're paying R/G R/G for Shusher, then R/G to deal with the counter in their hand when they use it, versus G for Xantid, which either strips the counter from their hand or nullifies it the next turn.

Regarding Chalice, I'm currently running 4 Shattering Sprees in my board, so those would come before Shusher would. I suppose I could see bringing in Shusher in addition, but generally I find the 3 Sprees + Wishing for the 4th to be enough hate. Speaking of sufficient hate, aren't Shushers + Chants + Blasts slightly excessive for beating blue? Do you find that this dilutes the deck too much?

I'm genuinely curious about this. I'm not that impressed by Shusher, and I'd like to understand why people have found him to be optimal.

Counters are not that hard to deal with. Counterbalance and Counters is what is dificult. Shusher gives us the answer to it. It is uncounterable and they have to find their 4 Swords to kill it. All you need is RR or RW to win the game. He is that good. Guaranteeing a resolved Chant or the destruction of CB is what this deck needed.

Chalice was just an additional use it has. I run 1 SS, so I would leave it in the board and probably bring in Shusher. I doubt I will, but it has a lot of uses.

kicks_422
05-05-2008, 08:54 PM
Shusher solves Chalice and Counterbalance problems all at once. I had trouble finding room for additional Shattering Sprees in the SB alongside REB's, but Shusher freed up lots of room.

Also, the additional mana you pay for Shusher is negligible, since you can generally wait a bit longer against decks which you're bringing it in.

BreathWeapon
05-05-2008, 08:58 PM
Vexing Shusher is the nut high because it wins games that would other wise be lost. A Xantid Swarm draws out a Force of Will, but it leaves the Counterspell in hand, where Vexing Shusher just tells your opponent to completely piss off. With the exception of Stifle, Vexing Shusher feels like an uncounterable Mind Twist against blue that also gives you a fighting chance against your worst case scenarios of Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

Just being able to protect Burning Wish -> Hull Breach thru' Counterbalance has been priceless.

I've been raping the local metagame so hard with Vexing Shusher that our store has just sold out of Blue blasts, and that's no damn lie.

MattH
05-05-2008, 09:28 PM
ANother thing about Shusher is that it's really annoying to kill with EE since it will also take out your Goyf/Cbalance/Confidant/etc.

GreenOne
05-06-2008, 01:19 AM
Well, it also beats for 2, isn't it? :tongue:

BreathWeapon
05-06-2008, 09:52 AM
Well, it also beats for 2, isn't it? :tongue:

It's not an invalid point, I've won a couple games from SSG/Shusher beats, being able to drop the storm count by 1 is always useful.

Jak
05-06-2008, 10:47 AM
I am in love with it. I finally feel comfortable playing Landstill and Thresh. Before, the deck really needed to win quicky before CB came online, but now I can sculp my hand with cantrips and then combo out with ease. It is awesome. Please run it over Swarm, his days are over with Shusher.

zefhek
05-06-2008, 11:35 AM
is shusher that strong, so it'll degenerate the meta ? like keeping the aggro decks out cause every ass will pick up combo, which only gets trouble from well tuned ***** versions with sideboards heavily dedicated to fighting combo with shusher (Blue Blasts, etc.).

i haven't played a game with shusher so far, but as you are praising it seems to be awesome :/ imo mainy players kept distance from combo bc they beat the shit out of aggro, but then get stopped by some ***** version, which tends to be in the higher brackets very often. i know some combo guys who would love to pick up combo but play pox or heavily disruptive suicide decks instead, cause they have a better game with it vs ***** and still a decent one vs aggro.

Bryant Cook
05-06-2008, 11:56 AM
is shusher that strong, so it'll degenerate the meta ? like keeping the aggro decks out cause every ass will pick up combo, which only gets trouble from well tuned ***** versions with sideboards heavily dedicated to fighting combo with shusher (Blue Blasts, etc.).

i haven't played a game with shusher so far, but as you are praising it seems to be awesome :/ imo mainy players kept distance from combo bc they beat the shit out of aggro, but then get stopped by some ***** version, which tends to be in the higher brackets very often. i know some combo guys who would love to pick up combo but play pox or heavily disruptive suicide decks instead, cause they have a better game with it vs ***** and still a decent one vs aggro.
Shusher isn't degenerate, it just allows TES players to play around counterspells and counterbalance. Basically, it allows us to goldfish with an opponent across from us. Eventually Thresh players will adapt and play Blue Blasts down the line, yes, however, we've been playing Red Blast the entire time. We can just counter thier blue blast and make our Red Blast uncounterable.

What you're failing to realize is that combo is normally up at the higher brackets since it has a lot of good match-ups. Once it meets Threshold now, it doesn't have to be afraid because of Vexing Shusher. In the end, people will pick up TES because of Shusher or TES players will see the value of Shusher and start winning more tough match-ups. Hopefully both, but it doesn't really matter.

zefhek
05-06-2008, 12:23 PM
i realize that combo is always at the higher brackets, and that's the time when it starts passing games to *****, which it won't with shusher. at least not as often as before.

but i think there is also a big m´number who passed combo in favour of playing a deck with a good matchup vs ***** and those will now be coming back to combo (especially tes) cause it seems to me that it offers the most equitity atm vs a random meta. and more tes could mean less aggro. but then blasts could be enough to balance the whole thing :/

just waiting for a combo summer... :D

BreathWeapon
05-06-2008, 12:37 PM
You'll see two things, the first thing you'll see is that Storm hate and Goblin hate will converge in most SBs, i.e Storm/Goblin hate will be Stifles to circumvent Vexing Shusher and Blue blasts to remove it. The second thing you'll see is that since Storm hate will be concentrated on dealing with Vexing Shusher, the control or aggro-control deck will be using more instant based hate than permanent based hate. This creates more virtual card advantage for Orim's Chant when it turns off Stifle and Blue blasts, and it reduces the amount of permanent hate Storm has to remove. Since Vexing Shusher is already an answer to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, Storm is gaining the upper hand in match ups that were once unfavorable.

It's not so much Vexing Shusher is an "Oops, I win" button for combo, it's that Counterbalance isn't a "Oops, I win" button for control any more.

Bryant Cook
05-06-2008, 12:42 PM
You'll see two things, the first thing you'll see is that Storm hate and Goblin hate will converge in most SBs, i.e Storm/Goblin hate will be Stifles to circumvent Vexing Shusher and Blue blasts to remove it. The second thing you'll see is that since Storm hate will be concentrated on dealing with Vexing Shusher, the control or aggro-control deck will be using more instant based hate than permanent based hate. This creates more virtual card advantage for Orim's Chant when it turns off Stifle and Blue blasts, and it reduces the amount of permanent hate Storm has to remove. Since Vexing Shusher is already an answer to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, Storm is gaining the upper hand in match ups that were once unfavorable.

It's not so much Vexing Shusher is an "Oops, I win" button for combo, it's that Counterbalance isn't a "Oops, I win" button for control any more.

Breathweapon, I regret saying this but... I've been liking you more and more every day. He's pretty much right.

EDIT: I updated the opening post with some new information.

BreathWeapon
05-06-2008, 03:37 PM
So, have people tried replacing the Shattering Sprees with Serenitys, the non-wish target ones for SBing in? Picking off Chrome Moxes aside, having another set of outs against Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, In the Eye of Chaos, Pyrostatic Pillar, Runed Halo and Counterbalance has been useful in play testing. You don't get the uncounterable Chalice of the Void removal against Faerie Stompy or AfFOWnity, and you can't resolve it thru' Chalice of the Void @2 with out Vexing Shusher, but it deals with a ton of random Enchantment based combo hate that TES can struggle against. Rule of Law is especially annoying and easily SBable in Landstill for example.

Jak
05-06-2008, 06:54 PM
So, have people tried replacing the Shattering Sprees with Serenitys, the non-wish target ones for SBing in? Picking off Chrome Moxes aside, having another set of outs against Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, In the Eye of Chaos, Pyrostatic Pillar, Runed Halo and Counterbalance has been useful in play testing. You don't get the uncounterable Chalice of the Void removal against Faerie Stompy or AfFOWnity, and you can't resolve it thru' Chalice of the Void @2 with out Vexing Shusher, but it deals with a ton of random Enchantment based combo hate that TES can struggle against. Rule of Law is especially annoying and easily SBable in Landstill for example.

I would rather just run Tranquility and Shattering Spree. The ability to get them game one is why they will not get cut. I run, right now, Hull Breach, SS, and Tranquility just so I don't lose to random and DS. Maybe if those decks trouble you that much, but for me I am fine wit the set up.

BreathWeapon
05-06-2008, 07:53 PM
I would rather just run Tranquility and Shattering Spree. The ability to get them game one is why they will not get cut. I run, right now, Hull Breach, SS, and Tranquility just so I don't lose to random and DS. Maybe if those decks trouble you that much, but for me I am fine wit the set up.

I didn't mean cut the wish targets for the Serenitys, I meant SB Serenity in addition to the wish targets:

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
4 Serenity
4 Vexing Shusher

Non wish target outs to Enchantments seems good considering Counterbalance can't guarantee a 2cc card to counter it and Rule of Law is obnoxious.

I'm not getting enough mileage out of Pyroblast/Thoughtseize and Serenity has just been solid in the handful of matches I've boarded it in.

Mental
05-06-2008, 08:34 PM
I didn't mean cut the wish targets for the Serenitys, I meant SB Serenity in addition to the wish targets:

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
4 Serenity
4 Vexing Shusher

Non wish target outs to Enchantments seems good considering Counterbalance can't guarantee a 2cc card to counter it and Rule of Law is obnoxious.

I'm not getting enough mileage out of Pyroblast/Thoughtseize and Serenity has just been solid in the handful of matches I've boarded it in.

I like your board. Serenity seems strong game 2 and 3, and Hull Breach should be fine for taking out Counterbalance as if Burning Wish goes through, it usually does also. Though I don't think that we're so worried about counterbalance anymore, so we may want to devote the rest of the SB to ways of removing 3Sphere and the like. In that case a 1 Spree/3 Serenity split could be strong.

Jak
05-06-2008, 08:38 PM
I still like Pyroblast though to take out CB. I also like being able to remove multiple enchantments and artifacts game one.

Bryant Cook
05-06-2008, 08:48 PM
I didn't mean cut the wish targets for the Serenitys, I meant SB Serenity in addition to the wish targets:

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
4 Serenity
4 Vexing Shusher

Non wish target outs to Enchantments seems good considering Counterbalance can't guarantee a 2cc card to counter it and Rule of Law is obnoxious.

I'm not getting enough mileage out of Pyroblast/Thoughtseize and Serenity has just been solid in the handful of matches I've boarded it in.

I really like that sideboard, although, I'd swap the Contract for a Thoughtseize. Once I get some asian Serenity I'll try it out.

Mental
05-07-2008, 12:06 AM
So I guess with the printing of Shusher, there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to play Fetchland Tendrils over this deck - which means I'll be playing this deck. I just have a few questions, before I start putting this together:

What do you think the optimal SB is in the following meta?

2-3 Threshold (1-2 Thrash)
1-2 Goblins
0-1 TES
1 Survival (boards in hate in the form of permanents)
1-2 Dragon Stompy
1 43.Lands
1 UWb Cunning Landstill
1GWb Aggro
1GW Aggro


I know that I want to play 4 Shusher, 1 IGG, 1 Draw4, 1 DReturns, 1 EtW, and 1 Tendrils. I have 3 Serenity to I kind of want to play them along with 1 Shattering Spree.

Does that sound about right?

G1, without Shusher, is it worth waiting for Chant against Thresh or do you find it better to just go all in ASAP before they can land Balance? Howabout against Thrash, which doesn't play Balance?

What is the most effective way to combat Wasteland/Stifle? Fetchland Tendrils access to Extirpate made that deck ideal in the Thrash MU, though it was still by no means positive.

Bryant Cook
05-07-2008, 12:28 PM
So I guess with the printing of Shusher, there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to play Fetchland Tendrils over this deck - which means I'll be playing this deck. I just have a few questions, before I start putting this together:

What do you think the optimal SB is in the following meta?

2-3 Threshold (1-2 Thrash)
1-2 Goblins
0-1 TES
1 Survival (boards in hate in the form of permanents)
1-2 Dragon Stompy
1 43.Lands
1 UWb Cunning Landstill
1GWb Aggro
1GW Aggro


I know that I want to play 4 Shusher, 1 IGG, 1 Draw4, 1 DReturns, 1 EtW, and 1 Tendrils. I have 3 Serenity to I kind of want to play them along with 1 Shattering Spree.

Does that sound about right?

G1, without Shusher, is it worth waiting for Chant against Thresh or do you find it better to just go all in ASAP before they can land Balance? Howabout against Thrash, which doesn't play Balance?

What is the most effective way to combat Wasteland/Stifle? Fetchland Tendrils access to Extirpate made that deck ideal in the Thrash MU, though it was still by no means positive.

I think the Sideboard that Breathweapon posted is really good. Although, I like Thoughtsieze in the sideboard as a game one protection spell.

I generally have this logic about Threshold. If you can go off turn 1-2 and they're tapped out do it. If your opening hand has a few cantrips try and find Chant, otherwise just go.

Thrash which doesn't play balance you can sit around and wait a little bit longer. But don't wait too long. They can still acquire double Force/Spellsnare/Stifle.

Wasteland/stifle, doesn't have the same effect on our manabase as it does fetchland Tendrils. Both wasteland/stifle have a solid effect on TES, however, if you can resolve Chant, who cares about stifle? The best way to play around wasteland is, if you have two lands play them. If you have one land and are afraid it's going to get wasted hold it until you can combo off.

No_Life_No_Future
05-08-2008, 09:15 AM
Ive been messing around with goblin lore and control of the court in another deck and they were pretty interesting. Has anyone tested them in TES? Seems like they might work well with cabal rit and iggy. Chances are you have already tested them.

BreathWeapon
05-08-2008, 10:05 AM
Both Goblin Lore and Control of the Court are just expensive cantrips with random card selection that build Threshold, I tried them once in SI and I couldn't get them to work.

Barring 2 MD slots and personal choices in the golden lands, I think the MD is more or less set.

No_Life_No_Future
05-08-2008, 10:34 AM
lol missed random discard not reading and pulling all nighter ftl.

Bryant Cook
05-08-2008, 02:47 PM
I did some testing with Serenity against Dragon Stompy. I've found it's not better than Shattering Spree. It's next to impossible to cast with 8 Blood Moon effects and Chalice. I'd much rather just play Shattering Spree.

BreathWeapon
05-08-2008, 03:18 PM
Well against Tomb/City decks sure, but I find Serenity's most useful function is removing the odd Enchantments like Counterbalance, Rule of Law and Runed Halo against control while still being useful against Trinishphere and Chalice of the Void based decks. I mean, if Serenity actually causes the opponent to SB in 8 moon effects to keep you off of White mana, then that's some pretty spectacular dead card advantage right there.

I don't think it means Serenity is bad, it just means Shattering Spree is better against Tomb/City decks and Fearie Stompy or Affownity, and that much was sort of a given.

Citrus-God
05-08-2008, 04:31 PM
Wait... in those slots, wouldnt Pyroblasts be better than Serenity? Pyroblasts protect your Shushers from opposing BEBs and Pyroblasts are additional outs against Counterbalance. Also, if you guys are to run 3 Pyroblasts, that 4th slot could finally go to Thoughtseize.

Against Chalice, we have Burning Wish, because all decks that run Chalice lack Counter-magic outside of Faerie Stompy to protect that Chalice and our manabase gets around Blood Moon effects. We can just sit back and wait for 2-3 Turns and find a Burning Wish to answer lock components then just combo out.

Bryant Cook
05-08-2008, 04:43 PM
Well against Tomb/City decks sure, but I find Serenity's most useful function is removing the odd Enchantments like Counterbalance, Rule of Law and Runed Halo against control while still being useful against Trinishphere and Chalice of the Void based decks. I mean, if Serenity actually causes the opponent to SB in 8 moon effects to keep you off of White mana, then that's some pretty spectacular dead card advantage right there.

I don't think it means Serenity is bad, it just means Shattering Spree is better against Tomb/City decks and Fearie Stompy or Affownity, and that much was sort of a given.

The blood moon effects are maindeck. Also, I'm not going to board in Serenity for Counter Balance. Cleanfall as a Wishtarget deals with all of those. I'm just going to run the sideboard I posted.

BreathWeapon
05-08-2008, 10:10 PM
The blood moon effects are maindeck. Also, I'm not going to board in Serenity for Counter Balance. Cleanfall as a Wishtarget deals with all of those. I'm just going to run the sideboard I posted.

I think you're right, Chalice of the Void at 2 has been costing me a lot of games and the Enchantments are too few and far between to care, I think I'm going -1 Hull Breach -4 Serenity for +1 Cleanfall and +4 Shattering Spree.

Going to a tournament tomorrow, I'll post the results when I get back.

Citrus-God
05-08-2008, 10:19 PM
I think you're right, Chalice of the Void at 2 has been costing me a lot of games and the Enchantments are too few and far between to care, I think I'm going -1 Hull Breach -4 Serenity for +1 Cleanfall and +4 Shattering Spree.

Going to a tournament tomorrow, I'll post the results when I get back.

Good luck Breath Weapon. Tell us how the 4 Shattering Spree goes. I'm really digging the idea of playing SP and PBlast as metagame choices for those slots. Also, you should consider the Sidedeck Thoughtseize, I heard really great things about it.

Bryant Cook
05-08-2008, 10:24 PM
Good luck Breath Weapon. Tell us how the 4 Shattering Spree goes. I'm really digging the idea of playing SP and PBlast as metagame choices for those slots. Also, you should consider the Maindeck Thoughtseize, I heard really great things about it.

Why maindeck Thoughtseize? Over what more importantly? The maindeck is the most solid it's ever been right now. I'm currently playing...

4 Vexing Shusher
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroblast
1 Cleanfall
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

Citrus-God
05-09-2008, 01:37 AM
Why maindeck Thoughtseize? Over what more importantly? The maindeck is the most solid it's ever been right now. I'm currently playing...

Oops... typo... I meant to say Sidedeck...


4 Vexing Shusher
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroblast
1 Cleanfall
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

Why did Thoughtseize get cut anyway? I liked it a lot in testing...

Bryant Cook
05-09-2008, 10:14 AM
I still like it, although in many situations that I wish for it I'm already winning. After an ETW or Mid-combo when I have 3 extra mana to add to storm.

Brehn
05-09-2008, 11:39 AM
I still like it, although in many situations that I wish for it I'm already winning. After an ETW or Mid-combo when I have 3 extra mana to add to storm.

Don't you forget the most important situation?


However, TES has Burning Wish for Thoughtsieze. Meaning TES doesn't have to find Orim's Chant since it has another option.

Now you can only rely on cantrips to find Chant. Don't you just lose if you can't find it?

Bryant Cook
05-09-2008, 11:43 AM
Don't you forget the most important situation?



Now you can only rely on cantrips to find Chant. Don't you just lose if you can't find it?

Am I not allowed to test alternate sideboards? If I was to go to a tournament today I'd play my list on the opening page. I'm just currently testing without a Thoughtsieze in the sideboard, calm down. Also, why would the deck lose without Burning Wish for Thoughtsieze? The deck can plow through hate.

arsenalpow
05-09-2008, 01:42 PM
Maybe its just me, but diminishing returns ALWAYS screws me, ALWAYS. How many times out of ten does diminishing returns usually result in a fizzle?

BreathWeapon
05-09-2008, 02:06 PM
Maybe its just me, but diminishing returns ALWAYS screws me, ALWAYS. How many times out of ten does diminishing returns usually result in a fizzle?

Between 1/5 and 1/10, and less than either of those if the win conditions are > 2. Just remember to float the 3rd U from LED so it can resolve a Brainstorm or Ponder if you can.

arsenalpow
05-09-2008, 02:19 PM
Maybe it was just a rough shuffle. It was something like accellerant x2, wish into diminishing returns cracking LED for UUU in response, casting returns floating a U, drawing 7 into a brainstorm/ponder, casting cantrip, finding nothing GG :(

A version of that has happens at least 3/5 for me.

Bryant Cook
05-09-2008, 02:21 PM
Maybe it was just a rough shuffle. It was something like accellerant x2, wish into diminishing returns cracking LED for UUU in response, casting returns floating a U, drawing 7 into a brainstorm/ponder, casting cantrip, finding nothing GG :(

A version of that has happens at least 3/5 for me.

Try waiting until you can float more mana. I generally try and float BU.

BreathWeapon
05-09-2008, 02:27 PM
Maybe it was just a rough shuffle. It was something like accellerant x2, wish into diminishing returns cracking LED for UUU in response, casting returns floating a U, drawing 7 into a brainstorm/ponder, casting cantrip, finding nothing GG :(

A version of that has happens at least 3/5 for me.

That's rough, but the GG part can be exaggerated some times, once TES has 7 new cards and the card advantage he gained from Lands/Chrome Moxes etc. the deck shouldn't be in a bad position against the opponent most of the time.

You're probably just running bad, but you could try adding Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens in the Draw 4 slots.

Mental
05-10-2008, 02:53 PM
I feel like I should post this game up while I remember.

I'm playing against UGr Thrash.

I'm on the play. I have to mull, and then pass my first turn by doing nothing. My friends opening hand turned out to be Stifle, Force, Force, Goyf, Fetch, Waste, Goose. Next draw was a Fetch.

My hand was Burning Wish, Chrome Mox, LED, Infernal Contract, Chant.

I draw City of Brass, which I held onto, and then Lotus Petal.

I Contract to find a second LED. The Contract goes through.

Now I'm at 1 life. I play Chant, Chant, Burning Wish, LED, LED, Diminishing Returns with BU floating.

I RFG a Tendrils, and hit Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, EtW, Dark Rit and some other stuff. I make 22 Goblin Tokens and burn for 0.

He brainstorms for burn, mental notes, and hits the Fire/Ice with two mana open.

Goddamnit. That was the closest game of magic I've ever played.

I've been testing a lot against Thrash. Last night I won three games against Thrash, but this morning I lost three. They were all incredibly close.

MattH
05-10-2008, 06:29 PM
Hand was:

SSG
Rite of Flame
Petal
LED
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Burning Wish

On the play, I figured, hey, 60% he doesn't have FOW. Play out the mana, Wish, crack LED, get...well I should have gotten ETW I suppose, but I went for Diminishing Returns, with URBB floating and seven storm. And my new seven cards are: three fast mana (but no LED) + three lands + Infernal Tutor. God damn it.

>_< Just frustrated I guess...

Bryant Cook
05-11-2008, 11:18 AM
I played TES yesterday again in my local metagame, taking first again because of Shusher. I beat, Belcher, UWgb Landstill, Fetchland Tendrils, Painter, and Faerie Stompy with the list on the first page. Geoff (Konsultant) even said he's starting to think that Landstill has a bad match-up against TES. Shusher is definitely going to make TES see some more Top 8's this summer.


Sorry for the bad luck with Diminishing Returns guys. I cast Diminishing Returns 11 times yesterday and not once did I fizzle. You have to set Diminishing Returns up and I don't think people realize this. Don't play a land, and try to have at least 2 mana floating, that's the best way to win off the card.

MattH
05-11-2008, 12:34 PM
Returns works out more often than not for me, just not as often as I would hope. If I had gotten one more card, it would have been a Brainstorm that would draw me into a LED and I could Infernal up a win, so it was just bad luck that time - I couldn't have set it up better, I had 7 storm, 4 mana in all relevant colors, and yet to make my land drop. Just rotten luck.

Jujuhawk
05-11-2008, 01:51 PM
Bryant, what's your most recent list? I've been thinking of testing this deck for awhile now and I haven't found a list on the last few pages.

Jak
05-11-2008, 02:33 PM
Bryant, what's your most recent list? I've been thinking of testing this deck for awhile now and I haven't found a list on the last few pages.

Opening post.

BreathWeapon
05-11-2008, 02:51 PM
Mini Report

I managed 2nd place in a double elimination tournament against Goblins, Aggro-Loam, Red Stompy, Ichorid, AfFOWnity, UGW Threshold, UW Landstill and UWB Dreadnought (my pet deck piloted by a friend).

Round 1: Goblins

Game 1 is a win, game 2 is a loss due to turn 1 Chalice of the Void, Mountain, Goblin Lackey go followed by a Wasteland and a Siege Gang Commander on the following turn, game 3 is a win due to double Time Walking him with Orim's Chant and then going off with Diminishing Returns into Tendrils of Agony.

Round 2: Ichorid

Game 1 I keep a debatable hand of City of Brass, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Burning Wish and Orim's Chant on the play, I storm for 5 and put 10 Goblins on the board. The opponent drops City of Brass, Putrid Imp and then discard his entire hand except for two cards. I swing in for ten and then pass the turn. The opponent dredges, plays a land and then discards Deep Analysis, I respond with Orim's Chant. I swing in for 9 and then Ponder into a second Orim's Chant, I show the Orim's Chant and then Ichorid scoops on its following turn. Game 2 Ichorid blows me out, game 3 I pass the turn, Orim's Chant in response to a Cephalid Coliseum and then go off on the following turn.

Round 3: AfFOWnity

Game 1 is a win, I go All In with Infernal Tutor into Tendrils of Agony and my opponent scoops before I can see a single card. Game 2 is a loss, I decide not to risk SBing in sub-optimal cards and get Chalice of the Void at 0, 1 and 2 by turn 4 to thank for it, he's running both 2 mana lands and Trinket Mage for a pseudo Faerie Stompy approach. Game 3 is a win, I decide to board out Orim's Chant and board in both Vexing Shusher and Shattering Spree, I wipe his board repeatedly with Shattering Spree(s) and then beat down with Vexing Shusher(s) and Simian Spirit Guide(s) just for the humiliation factor. I'm not 100% certain SBing out Orim's Chant is the right approach to the AfFOWnity/Faerie Stompy match up, but Force of Will is no where near as bad as Chalice of the Void, so concentrating on their lock pieces seemed like the most sensible approach.

I doubt AfFOWnity/Faerie Stompy have a good match up against us with out Arcane Laboratory or Eye of the Storm, between Shattering Spree and Vexing Shusher TES doesn't give a fuck about Chalice of the Void any more.

Round 4: Aggro-Loam

As much as I like Aggro-Loam, it doesn't have a chance in hell against Storm, even with MD Chalice of the Void it's just too slow to threaten TES after it resolves a lock piece. He tried to put up a fight with SB Trinisphere but the match up was over before it even started, I apologized to the kid and sold him a set of Force of Wills.

Round 5: UGW Threshold

Game 1 is a win, I Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame and then pause to see the opponent's reaction, he doesn't bother to counter the second Rite of Flame so I Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal and then resolve Empty the Warrens for 10. He plays an Island, Ponders and the passes the turn. I draw and swing in for 10. He plays an Island, Ponders and then shows me the Force of Will he kept on the first turn and Engineered Explosives. Game 2 is a win, he SBs out Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives for Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top and I introduce him to Vexing Shusher as he tries to Spellsnare it. He curses for leaving Blue Elemental Blast in the SB and scoops to an uncounterable Burning Wish->Cleanfall and uncounterable Orim's Chant.

Round 6: UW Landstill

This is the match up TES has to fear, it's Zvi's Enlightened Tutor and Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top shell using Muta Vault's to speed up the kill and Crucible of Worlds/Humility to dominate the end game.

Game 1 is a loss, I keep a cantrip based hand and while I'm digging for Lion's Eye Diamond and Orim's Chant he drops Counterbalance and saves his counter wall for Burning Wish. Game 2 is a loss, he keeps Swords to Plowshares in while SBing out Wrath of God for Chalice of the Void, Rule of Law and Engineered Explosives, and in the end I just can't compete with all of that on any level.

First Elimination.

Round 7: Red Stompy

For all intents and purposes it's Dragon Stompy, but he doesn't use Dragons in favor of Siege Gang Commander and Empty the Warrens and he doesn't use Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon in favor of Trinisphere and Boil effects. Since the deck was intending on facing Aggro and Control, but still had 8 lock pieces, it was a queer match up. Game 1 I forced him to scoop, game 2 I was caught under Trinisphere and couldn't find a Shattering Spree, game 3 was a long drawn out match where I was the control deck Burning Wishing for Pyroclasm to remove his Token threats and Shattering Spree(ing) to remove his lock pieces while I held him off with Time Walks from Orim's Chant until I luck sacked Diminishing Returns off the top of my deck. It was the first match up ever where Orim's Chant's kicker won me the game in a top decking war. Red Stompy was a cool deck and I gave him a lot of props for raping people with turn 1 Siege Gang Commanders followed by Boil.

Round 8: UWB Dreadnought

UWB Dreadnought is like Dreadstill but a hell of a lot better, it focuses on turn 2 Dreadnoughts with Enlightened Tutor, Stifle and Vision Charm and Time Walking them with Daze and Wasteland or just setting up the Counterbalance/Sensei's Diving Top lock and winning at its discretion.

There's no more perverse satisfaction than losing to your own pet deck, game 1 Force of Will, Stifle and Daze keep me off balance long enough for Enlightened Tutor to find Counterbalance, and game 2 I have to deal with Enlightened Tutor finding Chalice of the Void and Rule of Law for a complete lock.

Second Elimination, I pick up some Beta Dual Lands for my trouble.

Right now I feel that TES is in a great place, Vexing Shusher has made match ups like Faerie Stompy/AfFOWnity, UGW Threshold and UBGx Landstill so much easier, especially if they aren't prepared for you and/or Goblins. I feel I can either out race or play thru' Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void easily, and it either takes a fistful of Stifle/Blue Elemental Blasts to put me away or an odd ball Enlightened Tutor based deck to just WTF PWN me off the face of the earth.

After skittles, the UGR Threshold match up and Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top based Cephalid decks appear to be unfavorable match ups, but I haven't seen either of those decks in the local metagame or on MWS, which I assume is because UGR Threshold packs it in to the Threshold Mirror and Cephalid has its own problems. The 4/5c Threshold deck appears to be unfavorable as well, but if they're going to throw the kitchen sink at you and play that awful manabase, I'll take my game loss and watch them squirm against Stifle, Waste/Port and Blood Moons all day.

The list I ran was the standard list with -2 Draw 4 for +2 Empty the Warrens, -2 ??? Gold Lands for 2 Glimmervoids (I was having serious life issues with Tarnished Citadel and Vexing Shusher) and the standard SB with 4 Shattering Spree instead of the Pyroblasts and a Draw 4 instead of a Thoughtseize.

Jak
05-11-2008, 04:15 PM
Good report. I love how you only lose to Enlightened Tutor. Maybe the 3 Pyroblasts would have helped in the blue matches? I still think they deserve aspotbecause they counter CB and just help.

BreathWeapon
05-11-2008, 04:44 PM
Good report. I love how you only lose to Enlightened Tutor. Maybe the 3 Pyroblasts would have helped in the blue matches? I still think they deserve aspotbecause they counter CB and just help.

The Enlightened Tutor decks are just a lost cause, I'd rather focus on beating the Trinishphere/Chalice of the Void or Force of Will/Chalice of the Void decks with Shattering Spree, that card won me 2 matches in and of itself.

The UGR and UGB Threshold matches don't appear to be that bad, Pyroclasm and Thought Seize are irritating, but they have to make up for Meddling Mage. As long as SBs aren't pointed at TES/Goblins, I feel comfortable piloting the deck in a random metagame, short of UW Landstill, UWB Dreadnought and Counterbalance Cephalid there just isn't a decidedly unfavorable/unwinnable match up for the deck.

Vexing Shusher is just the nuts.

Bryant Cook
05-11-2008, 04:48 PM
The Enlightened Tutor decks are just a lost cause, I'd rather focus on beating the Trinishphere/Chalice of the Void or Force of Will/Chalice of the Void decks with Shattering Spree, that card won me 2 matches in and of itself.

The UGR and UGB Threshold matches don't appear to be that bad, Pyroclasm and Thought Seize are irritating, but they have to make up for Meddling Mage. As long as SBs aren't pointed at TES/Goblins, I feel comfortable piloting the deck in a random metagame, short of UW Landstill, UWB Dreadnought and Counterbalance Cephalid there just isn't a decidedly unfavorable/unwinnable match up for the deck.

Vexing Shusher is just the nuts.

I'm not afraid of Landstill or UWB Dreadnought. They're blue but I don't see anything to fear. Cephalid is a bad match-up. Agreed on Shusher. My local metagame has too much blue to take out blast. Although, if I was to go play in a large event, I'd cut my 2 blasts for the 2nd and 3rd Shattering Spree. 4 seems a bit to obsessive for me.

BreathWeapon
05-11-2008, 05:20 PM
I'm not afraid of Landstill or UWB Dreadnought. They're blue but I don't see anything to fear. Cephalid is a bad match-up. Agreed on Shusher. My local metagame has too much blue to take out blast. Although, if I was to go play in a large event, I'd cut my 2 blasts for the 2nd and 3rd Shattering Spree. 4 seems a bit to obsessive for me.

Basically what it comes down to is their guaranteed turn 2 Counterbalance, and/or Engineered Explosives in the case of Empty the Warrens, followed by Chalice of the Void and Rule of Law stretches your disruption/answers too thin. The UW Landstill match up is just unfavorable, since it relies on Force of Will for turn 1 and its win conditions give you time to maneuver, but the UWB Dreadnought match up is just unwinnable, because you can't deal with MD Force of Will, Daze, Stifle, Counterbalance, Wasteland and SB Rule of Law and Chalice of the Void, and that's barring Meddling Mage and Thought Seize.

I'll PM the MDs and SBs if you want to see for yourself.

I run 4 Shattering Spree so I can keep 1 Shattering Spree in the SB, but Trinisphere/Chalice of the Void and Force of Will/Chalice of the Void based decks are real popular here, so it's a metagame call.

Edit: I'm talking about a specific Landstill deck, general Landstill decks aren't that bad.

Jak
05-11-2008, 05:29 PM
Basically what it comes down to is their guaranteed turn 2 Counterbalance, and/or Engineered Explosives in the case of Empty the Warrens, followed by Chalice of the Void and Rule of Law stretches your disruption/answers too thin. The UW Landstill match up is just unfavorable, since it relies on Force of Will for turn 1 and its win conditions give you time to maneuver, but the UWB Dreadnought match up is just unwinnable, because you can't deal with MD Force of Will, Daze, Stifle, Counterbalance, Wasteland and SB Rule of Law and Chalice of the Void, and that's barring Meddling Mage and Thought Seize.

I'll PM the MDs and SBs if you want to see for yourself.

I run 4 Shattering Spree so I can keep 1 Shattering Spree in the SB, but Trinisphere/Chalice of the Void and Force of Will/Chalice of the Void based decks are real popular here, so it's a metagame call.

Edit: I'm talking about a specific Landstill deck, general Landstill decks aren't that bad.

So Thrash's MD, minus Spell Snares and then more hate coming in? What deck plays that much hate? Seems weird. Luckily, you won't see too many of them.

BreathWeapon
05-11-2008, 07:40 PM
So Thrash's MD, minus Spell Snares and then more hate coming in? What deck plays that much hate? Seems weird. Luckily, you won't see too many of them.

I'll post UWB Dreadnought in N&D when I find some time, that should answer most of your question with out cluttering up the TES thread.

Mental
05-12-2008, 12:35 AM
The Enlightened Tutor decks are just a lost cause, I'd rather focus on beating the Trinishphere/Chalice of the Void or Force of Will/Chalice of the Void decks with Shattering Spree, that card won me 2 matches in and of itself.

The UGR and UGB Threshold matches don't appear to be that bad, Pyroclasm and Thought Seize are irritating, but they have to make up for Meddling Mage. As long as SBs aren't pointed at TES/Goblins, I feel comfortable piloting the deck in a random metagame, short of UW Landstill, UWB Dreadnought and Counterbalance Cephalid there just isn't a decidedly unfavorable/unwinnable match up for the deck.

Vexing Shusher is just the nuts.

When playing with Shusher, do you and Bryant feel that it is worth waiting for the last possible minute to drop Shusher and go off right then, or is it stronger to drop Shusher turn 2 and try to go off Turn 3, hoping they don't have removal?

BreathWeapon
05-12-2008, 01:59 AM
The opponent is going to have counters more often than he is going to have removal, so I'd rather cast Vexing Shusher and either untap and win on the next turn or force the opponent to search for removal instead of counters, waiting to cast Vexing Shusher just makes it more likely they'll have removal to deal with him when you do cast him.

I put him on the board with Chrome Mox and Land on turn 1 a lot.

Mental
05-12-2008, 02:04 AM
The opponent is going to have counters more often than he is going to have removal, so I'd rather cast Vexing Shusher and either untap and win on the next turn or force the opponent to search for removal instead of counters, waiting to cast Vexing Shusher just makes it more likely they'll have removal to deal with him when you do cast him.

I put him on the board with Chrome Mox and Land on turn 1 a lot.

Yeah, that seems strong because a lot of decks don't have any removal for 1, or can't hit on on turn 1, so he's fairly safe then. Also, he can beat for 2 and then you can combo, which is strong.

I think that 3 Shattering Sprees in the board are a necessity, as people will start to bring in Pithing Needle to deal with Shusher (that may be the most effective hate card for him).

Jaiminho
05-12-2008, 08:36 AM
Actually, the most effective card against Shusher is BEB. Needle keeps the dude on the table and can be destroyed. I can only see Needle having an advantage over BEB when Shusher is cast the turn you go off. Frankly, that's quite a lot of mana.

BreathWeapon
05-12-2008, 12:04 PM
Actually, the most effective card against Shusher is BEB. Needle keeps the dude on the table and can be destroyed. I can only see an advantage when you cast Shusher and go off right away. Frankly, that's quite a lot of mana.

Just because the opponent could have removal for Vexing Shusher doesn't mean that casting Vexing Shusher and going off on the same turn is the only way Vexing Shusher is advantageous. I've seen Landstill SB in Threads of Disloyalty, Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Blue Elemental Blast, Stifle and keep Swords to Plowshares and Pernicious Deed MD just to deal with him while he sits in my SB with Empty the Warrens collecting all of the dead card advantage they can give me.

The overreaction to the card is profound, I've had opponent's scoop and show 2 Swords to Plowshares in hand, "I guess you didn't draw Vexing Shusher," lol.

The card is priceless.

Bryant Cook
05-12-2008, 01:15 PM
You don't have to play Shusher the turn you combo off. I've played it the turn before plenty of times, if it goes unanswered you win. No questions about it. Even if they kill him, that's not a more relevant spell out of their sideboard. Or if you don't draw him and they're sitting on removal you just win. Like Breathweapon said.

Jaiminho
05-12-2008, 04:40 PM
Bad writing, my bad. I'm saying Needle has the advantage over BEB when Shusher comes in the same turn your are trying to go off. Otherwise, it's BEB all day long. Shusher owns, no doubt of that.

BreathWeapon
05-12-2008, 05:34 PM
Needle gets SBed in to stop Vexing Shusher, BEB gets SBed in to stop Vexing Shusher AND 8 other spells in the deck. That multi-purpose role is what makes BEB better than Needle, not how BEB vs Needle compares against stopping Vexing Shusher.

Jaiminho
05-12-2008, 05:49 PM
Again, it was only a response to what Mental said (bold part):


I think that 3 Shattering Sprees in the board are a necessity, as people will start to bring in Pithing Needle to deal with Shusher (that may be the most effective hate card for him).

Of course BEB is better than Needle against TES. It wasn't the point, though.

BreathWeapon
05-12-2008, 05:52 PM
Again, it was only a response to what Mental said (bold part):



Of course BEB is better than Needle against TES. It wasn't the point, though.

Oh, my bad, I'm so not SBing in Shattering Spree for Pithing Needle like ever.

Mental
05-13-2008, 12:24 AM
Oh, my bad, I'm so not SBing in Shattering Spree for Pithing Needle like ever.

Pithing Needle permanently shuts down all the Shushers in your deck, and can't be hit by your own REBs. It doesn't seem like such a shabby SB piece to be brought in by Threshold, especially the UGR varieties that don't play REB and have no graveyard hate in their board besides Crypt, which sucks.

BreathWeapon
05-13-2008, 12:33 AM
Pithing Needle permanently shuts down all the Shushers in your deck, and can't be hit by your own REBs. It doesn't seem like such a shabby SB piece to be brought in by Threshold, especially the UGR varieties that don't play REB and have no graveyard hate in their board besides Crypt, which sucks.

It's pointless to SB in Shattering Spree to remove Pithing Needle, SBing in answers to answers to answers is just one big circle jerk, I'll leave Vexing Shusher in the SB and gain the dead card advantage at that rate.

You can just Burning Wish for Shattering Spree, that's more than enough.

undone
05-20-2008, 11:20 AM
I am going to be playing this deck in a somewhat large legacy torny. (30+ people) I have a question, If you sit down against an unknown opponent and have the option to on the play, do you go "all in"? or do you play it safe and wait to see the dreaded trop, brainstorm go which doesnt even tell you if your playing thresh dreadstill or landstill.

The bottom line is, If you lose the roll you have to wait to go off. If you win do you wait or go for it right now. Or is it all about reading your opponent.

emidln
05-20-2008, 11:24 AM
I am going to be playing this deck in a somewhat large legacy torny. (30+ people) I have a question, If you sit down against an unknown opponent and have the option to on the play, do you go "all in"? or do you play it safe and wait to see the dreaded trop, brainstorm go which doesnt even tell you if your playing thresh dreadstill or landstill.

If you see trop, brainstorm, go instead of trop go, end of your turn (or in response to your spell) brainstorm, you can be pretty safe in assuming your opponent is playing some sort of combo deck (well, they could be terrible at magic too, but it's safer to assume that your opponent isn't bad).

undone
05-20-2008, 11:42 AM
I Guess I should be more spesific, How would I respond to the following plays.

Trop go. (assume threshold??)
Tundra go. (assume landstill)
Sea go. (assume threshold??)
Volc go. (assume UGr Thrash?)

UW fetchland go. (assume landstill?? since thresh usualy runs some green fetches over this)
UB fetchland go.
WG fetchland go. (assume survival or NLQ?)
RG fetchland go.(assume survival or Red thresh?)

Any NON blue dual go (go off anyway??)

If i know the deck I can play around it but the whole balls to the wall thing could be suicide if you dont have any protection.

zefhek
05-20-2008, 12:09 PM
[...]If you sit down against an unknown opponent and have the option to on the play, do you go "all in"?

i do, because passing the first round with the kill in your hand vs random only opens up the possibilities for more disruption than just fow (thoughtseize, daze, spell snare, etc).

BreathWeapon
05-20-2008, 12:39 PM
If you don't have disruption, go All In, if you do have disruption, wait a turn.

undone
05-21-2008, 09:08 AM
All right that seems like a good rule of thumb is that if you dont have to play magic against them you dont want to. If you actualy have to play make sure your playing disruption. also A question is, when mulling do 2 cantrips equal a bissnuss spell, in testing it tipicaly equals 1 on turn 2. I havent tested the threshold matchup yet (not enough only 4 times) I am spending the whole FNM testing UGW UGB UGR and UGwb thresh for like 6 hours friday so I will have a bit of testing vs each I would just like background on each thresh matchup, which ones play EE, counterbalance, thoughtsieze. how many bisnuss spells do I need to win, how many chants?

EDIT: im also questionable as to bringing this deck, I havent tested the landstill matchup at all, I assume its a goblin highway to the win, but I could be wrong(even with 1 chant effect in hand then it could be a turn 2 thing)

BreathWeapon
05-21-2008, 11:56 AM
All right that seems like a good rule of thumb is that if you dont have to play magic against them you dont want to. If you actualy have to play make sure your playing disruption. also A question is, when mulling do 2 cantrips equal a bissnuss spell, in testing it tipicaly equals 1 on turn 2. I havent tested the threshold matchup yet (not enough only 4 times) I am spending the whole FNM testing UGW UGB UGR and UGwb thresh for like 6 hours friday so I will have a bit of testing vs each I would just like background on each thresh matchup, which ones play EE, counterbalance, thoughtsieze. how many bisnuss spells do I need to win, how many chants?

EDIT: im also questionable as to bringing this deck, I havent tested the landstill matchup at all, I assume its a goblin highway to the win, but I could be wrong(even with 1 chant effect in hand then it could be a turn 2 thing)

Double cantrips depends on two factors, 1) The number of ETW in your MD and 2) Brainstorm + Brainstorm, Brainstorm + Ponder or Ponder + Ponder. The more ETW in your MD, the bolder you can be with your cantrips, if you have a shuffle effect, the bolder you can be with 2 cantrips.

UGW, UGR, UGB and UGWB break down like this,

UGW) It's favorable, I've done the testing and UGW's Meddling Mage and Blue Elemental Blast aren't enough to prevent Vexing Shusher from dominating the match up.

UGR) It's marginal, you don't have to deal with Meddling Mage, but you do have to deal with Magma Jet, Fire/Ice and Pyroclasm killing your Goblins.

UGB) It's unfavorable, Thought Seize discarding Orim's Chant and Vexing Shusher is murder. You really need to be aggressive with ETW if you want to have a shot.

UGBW) It's unfavorable, same as UGB except SB Meddling Mages complicate matters further.

Landstill isn't so bad, if possible just drop Vexing Shusher and ride it to a win, most of the game comes down to Vexing Shusher vs removal. Alternatively, you can ETW go on the play, when they can't Stifle you, and either race Pernicious Deed or finish them with Tendrils of Agony.

I can't answer the # question, it's sort of situationally dependent.

undone
05-21-2008, 12:11 PM
I run 1 ETW md should that be changed? My list is the same as the frount save 1 difference.

-2 ponder +2 cabal ritual, I cant bring myself not to run a 2/2 split I feel it slows you too much

Thank you for the MU analisis I found that the UGWB matchup comes down to "got Tseize+ CB?"

As a side note a playtesting partner of mine has started calling ETW empty the winnings, because it just gets there on first turn with such little effort.

The only 2 things that I didnt get from that (Not that that wasnt EXTREAMLY helpful) is that I dont know what color combos run EE, Im assuming 4 C does but i dont know other lists.

Are there really any TES lists but Bryant's? :laugh:

yawg07
05-21-2008, 12:25 PM
No one ever thinks anyone but Bryant has a list, lol
But one of the main reasons, I suppose, is that the core list of TES really only has a handful (6) of movable slots.

I don't like 4x Ponder at all, really, and have actually been using 2x Ponder 2x Manamorphose.
I didn't like it at first, because in my goldfishing it was mediocre at best.
However, in actual play, it has been outstanding! More often that not, it makes :u: :w: or :u: :b: .

It makes Brainstorm and Ponder better, because of what you can do with the cards you put back.
You can have much better first turns when you have those "red heavy" hands, because you can have :u: :u: or :b: :b: if needed.

I want to fit a 3rd, and MAYBE TRY a 4th, but I dunno what to move just yet.
Any brainstorming on that? Who has been actually playing Manamorphose so far?

BreathWeapon
05-21-2008, 12:34 PM
Wastedlife uses 2 Draw 4s, while I use 3 ETW, it's the one aspect of the deck we both disagree on, but either configuration is viable. I don't believe less than 4 Ponder is even debatable, I've gotten to the point where I'd rather see Ponder than Brainstorm in the opening hand.

I tested Manamorphose, and it was inconsistent at best, I wouldn't bother running it again.

undone
05-21-2008, 02:16 PM
The moveable slots are these right?

2 draw 4s
4 ponder

my slots of those include

2 draw 4s
2 ponder
2 cabal ritual- As aquard as it is to go into late game(you know like 3rd turn :laugh: ) These help hugely there.

I think that 6 can trips is PERFECT for the deck more seems like too many fewer is just not enough. More ETW could be VERY good I might test it I also might test it as a 1/1 split because there are times when you just want to IT for a draw 4, and it sucks not being able to.

Bryant Cook
05-21-2008, 05:36 PM
I think that 6 can trips is PERFECT for the deck more seems like too many fewer is just not enough. More ETW could be VERY good I might test it I also might test it as a 1/1 split because there are times when you just want to IT for a draw 4, and it sucks not being able to.

I really recommend more cantrips, there's no reason not to at this point in time. Our other options aren't as strong, Ponder finds LED which is a whole hell of a lot better than Cabal Ritual. More ETW sucks at this point in time because everyone is prepared nowadays for ETW and it's no longer as effective as it once was. As for Infernal Tutoring for Infernal Contract, I've never, ever, done that. One more mana and you can go off with Diminishing Returns or two more mana and win with Ill-Gotten Gains, your chances to win after one of these cards is miles greater than ever winning with a Contract. Contracts are for setting up the win or as a storm generator for when drawn.

undone
05-22-2008, 10:12 AM
What do you board out/in vs threshold (OBV shushers and REBs/pyroblast in but what out) I was thinking cantrips and draw4s. Is this right?

I will test the ponders again but I dont know.

EDIT: I also looked at past T8s this deck has had. What ever happened to Bob and abance I had good experiance going mana mox bob. Also If that is the perpose of Draw4s, then is there a need for 1 in the SB? Also, the Cabal rituals, allow you to sculpt your hand into double bisnuss which can single handedly own an opponent. Lastly is grapeshot better or worse then pyroclasm. Granted pyroclasm can remove multi mage or mage+ teeg. I was just curious if it was that much better then G shot

Jak
05-23-2008, 01:39 AM
Manamorphose seems really interesting. I didn't really like having the 8 cantrips because they showed up in handfuls. Being able to change mana to what you need is something I like and then drawing the card is also nice. I will test. How has it been for you, yawg?

Jak
05-23-2008, 01:44 AM
What do you board out/in vs threshold (OBV shushers and REBs/pyroblast in but what out) I was thinking cantrips and draw4s. Is this right?

I will test the ponders again but I dont know.

EDIT: I also looked at past T8s this deck has had. What ever happened to Bob and abance I had good experiance going mana mox bob. Also If that is the perpose of Draw4s, then is there a need for 1 in the SB? Also, the Cabal rituals, allow you to sculpt your hand into double bisnuss which can single handedly own an opponent. Lastly is grapeshot better or worse then pyroclasm. Granted pyroclasm can remove multi mage or mage+ teeg. I was just curious if it was that much better then G shot

Bob was dropped because Draw 4s were better. This deck is very fast and having to wait to get cards is not good. The Draw 4 in the SB is to be wished for with B Wish.

I don't understand what you are saying about Cabal Rituals. Most of the time you won't have thresh and they just add one mana. Not that great.

And you basically answered your own question about pyroclasm. The only plus to GS is it being a win con if the opponent is at low life. It can also be uncounterable, but so is Pyroclasm when we have Shusher. That is not the greatest arguement, but being able to remove multiple mages is what makes Pyroclasm better.

zefhek
05-23-2008, 09:38 AM
Manamorphose seems really interesting. I didn't really like having the 8 cantrips because they showed up in handfuls. Being able to change mana to what you need is something I like and then drawing the card is also nice. I will test. How has it been for you, yawg?


multiple cantrips haven't been that big of a problem for me so far, having two in your opening grip makes it a 3 kill at least most of the time.

on the other side i can imagine that manamorphose could ruin quite some starters which you wouldn't have to mull with a cantrip instead.

undone
05-23-2008, 10:03 AM
Ok Il believe you I understand that draw4s are faster. Minor nit pick, is it more correct to have 2 of the same draw 4 (IT) or 2 different draw 4 (MMage/extirpate).

Ill drop the rituals for ponders for a little while to test. Personaly I think that if you are spending a year and a half to sculpt hands vs something like landstill Your better off having +3s that dont discard your entire hand just in case you cant resolve a chant.

Considering the ETW hate, I generaly never want to ETW vs any deck after turn 2. The exception being threshold which can just die to this because they only run stifle daze and force. Without Tseize I dont think that ETW will have a tough time winning.

BreathWeapon
05-23-2008, 10:21 AM
Ponder has done so much for TES, it has reduced its mulligan odds, it has reduced its Diminishing Returns failure odds, it has increased its access to Orim's Chant, it has increased its access to Lion's Eye Diamond, it has increased its access to Empty the Warrens, it has increased its access to Land, it has increased the number of shuffle effects and the list goes on.

Cabal Ritual is bad, 1B for BBB is not a good deal, and it's difficult for TES to reach Threshold. TES wants all of its acceleration to be either 0 or 1cc, so the next best piece of acceleration is either Elvish Spirit Guide or Tinder Wall.

Grape Shot vs Pyroclasm is debatable, both remove Gaddok Teeg, which is the real issue, while Pyroclasm removing double Meddling Mage is really overrated. A good Threshold player names Orim's Chant/Vexing Shusher first and Burning Wish/Empty the Warrens second, so as long as the Grape Shot is a deterrent from 2 Meddling Mages naming both win conditions and GGing you (and it is regardless, since it can either remove one of the Meddling Mages or be used as a win condition) it should be an "ok" replacement for Pyroclasm.

Considering it's real hard to use Grape Shot as a win condition, and there's no point in using Grape Shot as a win condition that I can see, there's no reason to use Grape Shot over Pyroclasm. If anything, you'd use Deathmark as more efficient Gaddok Teeg/Meddling Mage spot removal and be able to kill Tarmogoyf to boot. The only thing you'd be vulnerable to with Death Mark is Voidmage Prodigy, which shouldn't be a concern.

Edit: Right, 3 ETW is for Threshold metagames and for either turn 1 ETWs or hitting an ETW off of a Returns. Until decks start using 4 Engineered Explosives or Pyroclasms MD it should be viable against the Landstill 4 Deed/Stifle set ups.

You want 3 Draw 4s of the same name, I doubt any one is going to Meddling Mage a Draw 4, and being able to Infernal Tutor for additional copies of Draw 4s is a more practical consideration.

undone
05-23-2008, 11:42 AM
Well I wasnt considering grapeshot as a win condition, I was considering it more as a -X storm to tendrils you. It is essentialy for when you get to like 4 storm and have 8 mana up with B wish and tendrils in hand. Not often will it come up but theres times where I dont want to ETW for 18 I want to tendrils them because they can bolt me or something and that shuts thier fetches down. So it doubles as a finisher.

But honestly I think that theres a high chance you will remove problem men the turn you go off.

I will remember the ETW thing and take a couple with me. 3x ETW seems like its good basicaly just vs threshold. So I will remember that. Also I still have a serious issue on boarding I have no clue what comes out.

BreathWeapon
05-23-2008, 12:57 PM
Well I wasnt considering grapeshot as a win condition, I was considering it more as a -X storm to tendrils you. It is essentialy for when you get to like 4 storm and have 8 mana up with B wish and tendrils in hand. Not often will it come up but theres times where I dont want to ETW for 18 I want to tendrils them because they can bolt me or something and that shuts thier fetches down. So it doubles as a finisher.

But honestly I think that theres a high chance you will remove problem men the turn you go off.

I will remember the ETW thing and take a couple with me. 3x ETW seems like its good basicaly just vs threshold. So I will remember that. Also I still have a serious issue on boarding I have no clue what comes out.

As long as you can find in game uses for Grape Shot, then you can justify cutting Pyroclasm for it.

Multiple ETW is good against a lot of random stuff, while I mainly use them as anti-Threshold tech, it's second purpose is to cut down on the number of mulligans I have to take.

SBing is up in the air, for me I SB out Simian Spirit Guide a lot, and then I SB out the extra copies of Empty the Warrens (or Draw 4s). I'm strongly considering SBing out Brainstorms instead of Ponders when I need more space, but I'm really not certain which cantrip is better post board yet.

undone
05-23-2008, 01:34 PM
SBing is up in the air, for me I SB out Simian Spirit Guide a lot, and then I SB out the extra copies of Empty the Warrens (or Draw 4s). I'm strongly considering SBing out Brainstorms instead of Ponders when I need more space, but I'm really not certain which cantrip is better post board yet.

Interesting choice, I was also considering boarding out the silly ape(no storm for game 2), and cantrips (not ETW if its 3 of) I was also thinking that the cantrip slot should be half and half boarded out because its bad to see 2 brainstorm no shuffle, but 1 ponder 1 BS is great.

Most interesting card I think would be to board out 2 brainstorm 2 ponder 2 SSG and 1 Pedal 1 C mox or if just 7 keep the mox.

Bryant Cook
05-23-2008, 01:44 PM
Interesting choice, I was also considering boarding out the silly ape(no storm for game 2), and cantrips (not ETW if its 3 of) I was also thinking that the cantrip slot should be half and half boarded out because its bad to see 2 brainstorm no shuffle, but 1 ponder 1 BS is great.

Most interesting card I think would be to board out 2 brainstorm 2 ponder 2 SSG and 1 Pedal 1 C mox or if just 7 keep the mox.

I don't play a sideboard Contract, so I sideboard out a Contract, 2 Ponder, 2 Chrome Mox, 2 SSG if I need to sideboard out seven cards. Never, ever sideboard out Brainstorm.

undone
05-23-2008, 02:02 PM
How is this side board (thank you by the way for the information on boarding out thats been my most difficult part of playing this deck)

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyroblast
1 ETW
1 Tendrils
1 IGGy
1 D returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Tranquility
1 Shattering spree

Glaring ommisions? nit picks? should it be -1 pyroblast +1 X?

Citrus-God
05-23-2008, 05:02 PM
How is this side board (thank you by the way for the information on boarding out thats been my most difficult part of playing this deck)

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Pyroblast
1 ETW
1 Tendrils
1 IGGy
1 D returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Tranquility
1 Shattering spree

Glaring ommisions? nit picks? should it be -1 pyroblast +1 X?

-1 Pyroblast
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Tranquility

+1 Cleanfall
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Pyroclasm

Also, Grapeshot sucks. It takes too much thinking, investment, and gambling to make it work. Face it, you're a Storm combo deck; you're going to gamble a majority of the time and Grapeshot makes it more likely for you to gamble and make more tough decisions that could make you screw up.

zefhek
05-23-2008, 05:42 PM
I know 3 players will be taking angel stax 2 will be taking BGw Rock 1 dragon stompy 1 UGbw Landstill.

with keeping this in mind i would add more shattering sprees do your sb.

sth like -2 pyroblast +2 shattering spree at least.

Citrus-God
05-23-2008, 06:31 PM
with keeping this in mind i would add more shattering sprees do your sb.

sth like -2 pyroblast +2 shattering spree at least.

Or just replace the Pyroblasts altogether.

BreathWeapon
05-23-2008, 08:58 PM
Never, ever sideboard out Brainstorm.

With out shuffle effects, I don't think SBing out Ponder over Brainstorm is a given.

Grape Shot has been good so far, I've managed to kill a Gaddok Teeg, do 3 points of damage to the opponent and then storm for 2 less into Tendrils of Agony a couple of times at least. I don't know if that justifies using it over Pyroclasm, but it doesn't seem that bad.

undone
05-24-2008, 11:58 AM
Cleanfall is a nitpick I actualy picked up a foil one just so that all my wish targets are foil (the only reason is that cleanfall is white and chant can be imprinted occasionaly correct?) the thoughtsieze inclusion is also fine. I just dont think have ever wanted to wish for it.

GreenOne
05-24-2008, 12:29 PM
the only reason is that cleanfall is white and chant can be imprinted occasionaly correct?

No, the reason is the insane synergy between Cleanfall and Desperate Ritual, for the obvious splice onto arcane tricks.




Just kidding obv :)

undone
05-24-2008, 03:35 PM
As a side not I noticed something that has been happening and personaly I think it devalues the power of the Draw 4s, The draw 4s were directly better with cabal rituals in the deck. The cabal rituals were also better with IGGy The truth is every time I draw a Ponder I think it should be a cabal ritual because adding another black +1 (potentialy late +3) ups your 1st turn warrents greatly. Has any one had REAL sucess going off first turn without C rit in the deck? I goldfished T1s and only went off about 10 times out of 50 on T1. Which is the best out VS thresh I think and since so few deck can do anything about it I would go for that if i can get it.

BreathWeapon
05-24-2008, 04:32 PM
As a side not I noticed something that has been happening and personaly I think it devalues the power of the Draw 4s, The draw 4s were directly better with cabal rituals in the deck. The cabal rituals were also better with IGGy The truth is every time I draw a Ponder I think it should be a cabal ritual because adding another black +1 (potentialy late +3) ups your 1st turn warrents greatly. Has any one had REAL sucess going off first turn without C rit in the deck? I goldfished T1s and only went off about 10 times out of 50 on T1. Which is the best out VS thresh I think and since so few deck can do anything about it I would go for that if i can get it.

Yes, Cabal Ritual has little to no affect on turn 1 goldfishes, it's all in your head. If you want to replace the Draw 4s, then you know what I'd suggest replacing them with.

Cabal Ritual is an awful, awful card.

undone
05-24-2008, 07:30 PM
I dont agree that the card is awful (possibly in TES it might be) but I think that the deck needs another +1 but Cabal ritual may not be it. I hope they print something like.

r/b
Add r/b r/b to your mana pool

Which is actualy plausable because of the set they are in. Can you immagian that in TES (starts to drool) lol

But in absence of another broken ritual effect I think that your right and hand sculpting is more important

BreathWeapon
05-24-2008, 08:22 PM
I dont agree that the card is awful (possibly in TES it might be) but I think that the deck needs another +1 but Cabal ritual may not be it. I hope they print something like.

r/b
Add r/b r/b to your mana pool

Which is actualy plausable because of the set they are in. Can you immagian that in TES (starts to drool) lol

But in absence of another broken ritual effect I think that your right and hand sculpting is more important

If it weren't for Ponder, I'd run 4 Tinder Wall; it's better filler than Cabal Ritual.

Citrus-God
05-24-2008, 11:32 PM
I dont see Cabal Ritual setting up Turn 2 wins, as much as Cabal Rit accelerates the combo, it cant accelerate the combo to win on Turn 2 as often as Ponder does. Also, I dont see Cabal Rits finding Contracts, Wishes, ITutors, and/or Chants. Ponder find those things; and if it doesnt then Ponders enhances your chances of drawing them.

undone
05-25-2008, 12:58 PM
After testing against actual opponents I agree The hand sculpting lets you go off so consistentaly vs anything. Question since we dropped bob whats our discard plan? Just explode turn 1/2?

Bryant Cook
05-25-2008, 01:41 PM
Here's my first place Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=236899#post236899) from Hadley, Mass.

BreathWeapon
05-25-2008, 02:10 PM
Back to Swarms in the SB? Were they better than REB or Abeyance?

Bryant Cook
05-25-2008, 02:11 PM
Back to Swarms in the SB? Were they better than REB or Abeyance?

Yes, Stifle and Orim's Chant are becoming common sideboard cards around here and I don't want to lose to a Chant mid-combo.

Jak
05-25-2008, 02:51 PM
Did you like that many Sprees in the SB? You are the true master of TES. The games sounded amazing.

Bryant Cook
05-25-2008, 02:53 PM
Did you like that many Sprees in the SB? You are the true master of TES. The games sounded amazing.

Yeah, they were sided in a bit. They were solid, came up when I needed them.

Jak
05-25-2008, 11:49 PM
Bryant, I just read freakish's post about your games and I was wondering if, after playing those games, you wanted more EtW MD? Now, I used to run 3 like a lot of people, but cut them down when I added draw 4s and Cabal Rituals. I still don't know if they will be that effective, but the hate seems to have died down.

I don't know what I would cut, but I may drop a number of Ponders or Draw 4s. Most likely Ponders, because they are more for winning slowly and when you have an EtW in your opening, you usually won't cantrip.

Bryant Cook
05-25-2008, 11:56 PM
Bryant, I just read freakish's post about your games and I was wondering if, after playing those games, you wanted more EtW MD? Now, I used to run 3 like a lot of people, but cut them down when I added draw 4s and Cabal Rituals. I still don't know if they will be that effective, but the hate seems to have died down.

I don't know what I would cut, but I may drop a number of Ponders or Draw 4s. Most likely Ponders, because they are more for winning slowly and when you have an EtW in your opening, you usually won't cantrip.

It's an interesting thought, however, that's only one match-up. He wasn't playing maindeck explosives, a lot of people do nowadays. If I was to add more Empty the Warrens, I'd cut the 4th Ponder, or if you wanted three a single Contract leaving one. I'm happy with my current list after going 8-0-1 yesterday.

Jak
05-26-2008, 12:15 AM
It's an interesting thought, however, that's only one match-up. He wasn't playing maindeck explosives, a lot of people do nowadays. If I was to add more Empty the Warrens, I'd cut the 4th Ponder, or if you wanted three a single Contract leaving one. I'm happy with my current list after going 8-0-1 yesterday.

Yeah, I can see why you would love your deck :smile: . I'll test out 3 EtW MD and see how it feels. Most of the time the Thresh player has 2 EE MD, so most of the time EtW will win it.

Do you ever wish for Contract? With IT? I am sure I would if I top decked an IT with an empty hand, but I can't think of another situation. I think I'll keep 2 in and cut Ponder down to 2.

Bryant Cook
05-26-2008, 12:20 AM
Yeah, I can see why you would love your deck :smile: . I'll test out 3 EtW MD and see how it feels. Most of the time the Thresh player has 2 EE MD, so most of the time EtW will win it.

Do you ever wish for Contract? With IT? I am sure I would if I top decked an IT with an empty hand, but I can't think of another situation. I think I'll keep 2 in and cut Ponder down to 2.

I never Infernal Tutor for Contract. Ever. Diminishing Returns is always better. I don't think you'll like three Warrens. But try it and let me know how it goes, I think going down to 2 Ponder is a mistake.

Jak
05-26-2008, 02:06 AM
I never Infernal Tutor for Contract. Ever. Diminishing Returns is always better. I don't think you'll like three Warrens. But try it and let me know how it goes, I think going down to 2 Ponder is a mistake.

Well, then going down to only one Draw 4 seems weird. I'll try 3 EtW and tell you about it.

BreathWeapon
05-26-2008, 10:20 AM
Yeah, I can see why you would love your deck :smile: . I'll test out 3 EtW MD and see how it feels. Most of the time the Thresh player has 2 EE MD, so most of the time EtW will win it.

Do you ever wish for Contract? With IT? I am sure I would if I top decked an IT with an empty hand, but I can't think of another situation. I think I'll keep 2 in and cut Ponder down to 2.

Cutting Ponder for Empty the Warrens doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because the two cards work in conjuction. I Ponder into a turn 1 Empty the Warrens a lot, or I Diminishing Returns, float U, draw/cast Ponder and then go off with Empty the Warrens quite a bit. Multiple Empty the Warrens also benefits from cantrip -> cantrip, I've won a couple games from Ponder -> Ponder -> accelerant and then Empty the Warrens for 4+ instead of 2+ storm.

sephorusFR
05-26-2008, 01:46 PM
Hello all,

I'm coming back to legacy and wanted to see what updates where done to TES.
I lurked the last 10+ pages but I still have a question :
why most lists include 1 Tarnished Citadel ?

Thanks for the Insight

matelml
05-26-2008, 01:57 PM
Because alternatives are even worse. Forbidden Orchard isn't good when you want to play EtW, Paradise isn't good when you have several lands but used the Paradise to cast a cantrip on turn one and the Citadel isn't good either. So just play some combination, because they are all worse in doubles and better (read: less bad) combined. They are all comparable in crappiness, but I prefer 11 lands using them all once.

Jak
05-26-2008, 02:28 PM
Cutting Ponder for Empty the Warrens doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because the two cards work in conjuction. I Ponder into a turn 1 Empty the Warrens a lot, or I Diminishing Returns, float U, draw/cast Ponder and then go off with Empty the Warrens quite a bit. Multiple Empty the Warrens also benefits from cantrip -> cantrip, I've won a couple games from Ponder -> Ponder -> accelerant and then Empty the Warrens for 4+ instead of 2+ storm.

The reasoning for cutting Ponder would be because it conflicts with going off via EtW turn one. The reason I am trying 3 EtW is because it rocks against Thresh and rocks going off turn one when you have one in hand. That plan conflicts with cantriping.

In goldfishing last night I drew a ton of shitty hands, literally. Hands with 3 lands and a Chrome mox, 4 cantrips, no lands, no tutors, etc. It was ridiculous. And I did use 8 cantrips cutting 2 draw 4s. Still testing because those hands were horrible. I think it was just crazy bad luck.

sephorusFR
05-26-2008, 02:30 PM
OK I see. Then I guess Reflecting pool is out cause it can't provide mana if it's alone ?

undone
05-26-2008, 02:37 PM
Lands that need other lands are HORRIBLE when running 10 lands. The lands are the best they will be unless they print something like

Rainbow land
land
CIPT unless you pay 3/4 life

T: add 1 of any color

Really The list bryant has is very good and only a few cards get changed. The reason for this is that unless something like the above is printed or another retarted ritual is printed then the only changes are cards like ETW, and infernal contract. The biggest change is the SB cards there are alot of variable slots there for metagame

sephorusFR
05-26-2008, 02:46 PM
OK I see :)
Was the Slithermuse idea dropped entirely or not ?

undone
05-26-2008, 02:50 PM
It was dropped because burning wish cannot go for it, and returns is better 99% of the time, not to mention that makes you vulnerable to LLotV.

yawg07
05-26-2008, 03:28 PM
Slithermuse doesn't have to go to the yard, it just has to leave play.

Zach Tartell
05-26-2008, 03:31 PM
But you can't play it for :2::u:. Which was the coolest thing about it.

yawg07
05-26-2008, 03:38 PM
Exactly. Man, when Bryant and I were testing him at :2::u: we were going nuts back and forth on AIM.
The deck's first turn consistency went through the damn roof. Then it was revealed as spoiled wrong. :rolleyes:

BreathWeapon
05-26-2008, 06:50 PM
The reasoning for cutting Ponder would be because it conflicts with going off via EtW turn one. The reason I am trying 3 EtW is because it rocks against Thresh and rocks going off turn one when you have one in hand. That plan conflicts with cantriping.

In goldfishing last night I drew a ton of shitty hands, literally. Hands with 3 lands and a Chrome mox, 4 cantrips, no lands, no tutors, etc. It was ridiculous. And I did use 8 cantrips cutting 2 draw 4s. Still testing because those hands were horrible. I think it was just crazy bad luck.

Empty the Warrens will conflict with any play on any turn, but Empty the Warrens doesn't conflict with cantriping that much since cantriping into Empty the Warrens or using a cantrip to increase the storm count for Empty the Warrens is a really common play.

@Mateml

It doesn't have to be either Undiscovered Paradise or Tarnished Citadel, I've been running 2 Glimmervoids with no real problems, because Undiscovered Paradise or Tarnished Citadel have serious problems with their opportunity costs while resolving Vexing Shusher.

It's also 100% awesome to watch people Force of Will or Stifle Chrome Moxes and then just cast a Lotus Petal after playing a Glimmervoid.

Bryant Cook
05-26-2008, 10:23 PM
It's also 100% awesome to watch people Force of Will or Stifle Chrome Moxes and then just cast a Lotus Petal after playing a Glimmervoid.

That's only if you have a Lotus Petal, they would EE away your mox and then make you sacrifice your Land. Glimmervoid sucks.

undone
05-26-2008, 11:19 PM
Side note, windfall costs 2U for the same esque effect. It is banned. Guess what would happen to slither muse at 2U.

Also no offence, The lands are FINE leave them as is.

Also there is a card I saw when I was going through that I thought deserved mention of at least testing, simply because it seems includable. I DID CHECK TO SEE AND DIDNT SEE IT ON THE OP. have you tested Nostalgic Dreams ? it seems like it wants to be IGGy but, seriously it lets you sculpt like NONE other also... dreams = funny since they get nothing back

Di
05-26-2008, 11:33 PM
Nostalgic Dreams doesn't work all that well after you discard your hand to Lion's Eye Diamond and cast Infernal Tutor.

Nice try though, I almost got excited for a second.

undone
05-27-2008, 12:10 AM
Nostalgic Dreams doesn't work all that well after you discard your hand to Lion's Eye Diamond and cast Infernal Tutor.

Nice try though, I almost got excited for a second.

True, But I think you misunderstand the useage of it. It would be used as a 4 of or as additional tutors, not as a tutor target *UNLESS YOU HAD NOT USED LED AND HAND LANDS IN HAND* Drawing this card would be retarted (If you could make GG) It lets you do things like get LED LED Dark rit out of a hand with Land land SSG Its a form of hand sculpting. If it wasnt "Counter to four for 1 more) It could be retarted. But your right Its not as good as it looked.

BreathWeapon
05-27-2008, 12:21 AM
That's only if you have a Lotus Petal, they would EE away your mox and then make you sacrifice your Land. Glimmervoid sucks.

Free Wastelands and Lightning Bolts suck, at least with Glimmervoid the opponent has to have a means of exploiting it, and the Force of Will/Stifle situation can be circumvented by resolving the artifact before you play the land.

I've had no problems with Glimmervoid in tournament games, I can't say the same for Tarnished Citadel or Undiscovered Paradise.

Jaiminho
05-27-2008, 12:53 AM
Stifling a Chrome Mox wouldn't simply make it not tap for mana, but still keeping it on the board? I can't see how countering the Imprint trigger would make it be sacrificed.

matelml
05-27-2008, 03:13 AM
Glimmervoid is absolutely total crap. If you don't have an artifact, it's worse than every of the other 3. If your opponent has a Chalice @ 0 it doesn't work either. I have never had any problems with the 3 damage of Tarnished Citadel. I also play 3 Moxes, so I have an artifact less and needing to play an artifact so my land doesn't die isn't very good when I need the storm.

yawg07
05-27-2008, 03:17 AM
Side note, windfall costs 2U for the same esque effect. It is banned. Guess what would happen to slither muse at 2U.

To Slithermuse? Nothing. To LED? BANNZ0RZ
I hope that never ever happens. :laugh:

BreathWeapon
05-27-2008, 09:01 AM
Stifling a Chrome Mox wouldn't simply make it not tap for mana, but still keeping it on the board? I can't see how countering the Imprint trigger would make it be sacrificed.

You're right, for whatever reason I was facing Annul out of his SB and got the two cards mixed up.

@Mateml, you have 12 artifacts and 8 cantrips, the odds of drawing a Glimmervoid and not drawing an artifact are low. It's really not as inconsistent or exploitable as people like to think it is, but if you guys prefer casting Wasteland and Lightning Bolt on yourself, go for it.

undone
05-27-2008, 12:39 PM
I definately perfer to bolt myself. However wastelanding myself would still happen with no land to replay with G void. Test it vs UGB landstill/the rock and watch your land get deeded it will start to annoy you.

I guess N Dreams has been talked about before or It just isnt good enough either way, thats fine I was bored and just looked up sorc's that are legacy legal.

Mental
05-28-2008, 12:15 AM
True, But I think you misunderstand the useage of it. It would be used as a 4 of or as additional tutors, not as a tutor target *UNLESS YOU HAD NOT USED LED AND HAND LANDS IN HAND* Drawing this card would be retarted (If you could make GG) It lets you do things like get LED LED Dark rit out of a hand with Land land SSG Its a form of hand sculpting. If it wasnt "Counter to four for 1 more) It could be retarted. But your right Its not as good as it looked.

And I guess you'd play some Elvish Spirit Guides? Meh, it's kinda cool, since it's a one sided IGG, but then you have to remember that the last Storm deck to play IGG as a non tutor target was old school IGGy, and that deck blew. So I don't think it's good enough. :g::g: is a bitch, too.

undone
05-28-2008, 09:37 AM
Well I just want something to replace the draw4s. I cant play those right for the life of me. I always end up getting killed if I fizzle which I dont like. Isnt there a better card for that? a second ETW I could understand but still 3 ETW seems like too much. I was just looking for explosive alternatives like that. Yes it could just be replacing the draw4s (PROBABLY NOT LOL) but meh test it before you bash it (Im going to as well) Could be better then the draw4s. (because remember you dont tutor for draw 4s)

zefhek
05-28-2008, 09:51 AM
plunge into darkness instead of the 2nd infernal contract if you don't want to run 3 empty

undone
05-28-2008, 10:31 AM
No offence, but theres a reason that isnt run. Plunge is EWWWW. I never want that card in my hand again. It is the most inconsistent part of the deck. Even more so then Draw4s. Another card that hasnt been mentioned in the intro is Regrowth. Regrowth is retarted in vintage but why can it not be here? It costs the same amount as other relivant tutors (yes it requires set up I know or just getting to 8 mana to get a tutor back) Im just testing random cards not mentioned in those slots because The draw 4s are just... inconsistent.

Bryant Cook
05-28-2008, 11:35 AM
No offence, but theres a reason that isnt run. Plunge is EWWWW. I never want that card in my hand again. It is the most inconsistent part of the deck. Even more so then Draw4s. Another card that hasnt been mentioned in the intro is Regrowth. Regrowth is retarted in vintage but why can it not be here? It costs the same amount as other relivant tutors (yes it requires set up I know or just getting to 8 mana to get a tutor back) Im just testing random cards not mentioned in those slots because The draw 4s are just... inconsistent.

Draw 4's find cards you need, regrowth doesn't do this. I'm thinking you're playing the card wrong. Don't go for it as a tutor target. When you draw it, play it. It's miles better than regrowth effects.

undone
05-28-2008, 12:45 PM
Probably correct, I tipicaly play it when Im trying to go off. Is this what is incorrect? I guess it might be better to just wait a turn because usualy you will draw some combination of 1 land +2 net mana and a bis/tutor spell.

Im not going to lie, I feel like theres only 2 slots in the deck that arent auto in solid and those are the draw4s, not that its bad but I think I just need to learn to play them. I actualy lost a game to goblins because I cast one.