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yawg07
05-28-2008, 01:43 PM
In Vintage, Regrowth is only retarded because of the cards you are getting back with it.
Time Walk? Ancestral Recall? Black Lotus? Yawg Will? Demonic? Yes, all ridiculous.


undone, The Draw4s in TES are setup spells.
If your opening hand has Land, Dark Rit, Draw4, your first turn might as well be that.
Contract/Bargain are not a win mech, they are exactly what they say, a draw mech.
They draw you more cards, and find you more answers.

landstill101
05-28-2008, 02:22 PM
In Vintage, Regrowth is only retarded because of the cards you are getting back with it.
Time Walk? Ancestral Recall? Black Lotus? Yawg Will? Demonic? Yes, all ridiculous.


undone, The Draw4s in TES are setup spells.
If your opening hand has Land, Dark Rit, Draw4, your first turn might as well be that.
Contract/Bargain are not a win mech, they are exactly what they say, a draw mech.
They draw you more cards, and find you more answers.

And they also laugh in discards face, a person can have you discard almost your whole hand then you play a draw/4 and still win. Also regrowth still needs to have something in the graveyard which makes it dependant. If there isn't a bomb like time walk etc (listed by yawg) then it is not worth the slot.

undone
05-28-2008, 02:32 PM
Time Walk? Ancestral Recall? Black Lotus? Yawg Will? Demonic? Yes, all ridiculous.

I thought we played 4 black lotus and 4 demonic tutor:tongue: . But I guess I understand. I just kept drawing both vs goblins and thinking DAMN this is bad. (I would mull them away but half the time still see 1) I think I might drop 1 for 1 ETW because seeing both SUCKS vs anything not blue or anything with goyf

Van Phanel
05-29-2008, 02:48 PM
A question: how do you guys play the mirror? I know this will only rarely come up, still the question remains.

I found that (big surprise) Chants are absolutely huge in the mirror. You can both try to combo out without riskig manaburn or disrupt your opponents combo. Xantids would just win the game whenever they attack, I guess. If you don't play them however I found that the winning play (when your opponent doesn't tap out) is more often than not hardcasting SSG. You beat them for 2 a turn and they'll have to go off risking to lose to Chant. If you have one Chant and manage to find a second one (maybe with IT) you should be fine.

Comments/ other ideas?

Bryant Cook
05-29-2008, 02:52 PM
A question: how do you guys play the mirror? I know this will only rarely come up, still the question remains.

I found that (big surprise) Chants are absolutely huge in the mirror. You can both try to combo out without riskig manaburn or disrupt your opponents combo. Xantids would just win the game whenever they attack, I guess. If you don't play them however I found that the winning play (when your opponent doesn't tap out) is more often than not hardcasting SSG. You beat them for 2 a turn and they'll have to go off risking to lose to Chant. If you have one Chant and manage to find a second one (maybe with IT) you should be fine.

Comments/ other ideas?

You pretty much nailed it on the head. You could sideboard in Shusher to help with the aggro plan. I don't know how effective that will be.

Wallace
05-29-2008, 08:26 PM
So I have thrown together TES, I know how to play the deck but need some help in the sideboard department. What do you take out of the MB when bringing in Shushers, Spree's and/or Swarms?

Bryant Cook
05-29-2008, 09:59 PM
So I have thrown together TES, I know how to play the deck but need some help in the sideboard department. What do you take out of the MB when bringing in Shushers, Spree's and/or Swarms?

Ever read the opening post?

Wallace
05-30-2008, 11:01 AM
Ever read the opening post?

apparently not...:tongue:!

That is a big help, needs to be updated for your current SB though. I like running the Xantid Swarms, the list on the first page still has 3x Pyroblast.

Edit: Fixed I can't spell.

matelml
05-30-2008, 11:27 AM
I don't think that is a mistake, assuming you misspelled Pyroblast and do realize 3 Pyroclasm would never be in the Sb. I think Bryant likes Pyroblasts together with Shushers better than Xantid Swarm and won't update it to Swarms.

undone
05-30-2008, 11:31 AM
My question is, in a random metagame is pyroblast, or shattering spree better in a totaly random metagame? I think that shattering spree would be but thats just me. You have shusher and potentialy swarm for the board.

Also why did you take out the 1 SB seize? I have wanted to wish for disruption VERY often

Bryant Cook
05-30-2008, 11:42 AM
My question is, in a random metagame is pyroblast, or shattering spree better in a totaly random metagame? I think that shattering spree would be but thats just me. You have shusher and potentialy swarm for the board.

Also why did you take out the 1 SB seize? I have wanted to wish for disruption VERY often

Xantid Swarm is staying in the sideboard, just replace the swarms with blasts. I only run 2, I've found blast to be underwhelming lately. As for Shattering Spree Vs. Blast, you already have 6 blue hate cards, I'd recommend Shattering Spree. It's good against Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Ichorid, and Stax variants.

Thoughtsieze was taken out for the second Xantid Swarm. You win game one a lot, after game two you add in 6 anti-blue cards. I don't think wasting a Wish on a Duress effect is worth it with 10 cards maindeck.

Wallace
05-30-2008, 11:54 AM
So my next question is, why cleanfall? Can you run tranquility with the same effect, is there a reason cleanfall is a better choice?

Bryant Cook
05-30-2008, 11:58 AM
So my next question is, why cleanfall? Can you run tranquility with the same effect, is there a reason cleanfall is a better choice?

It's white, better to cast off Chrome Mox. Because of Orim's Chant. In reality it doesn't matter.

undone
05-30-2008, 11:58 AM
Cleanfall is white. Orims chant is white.

Thanks Bryant. I can believe it, Thats actualy pretty much what I thought

<3 Shusher. I need regular shushers =( I have 4 shiny ones and dont want to play them

P.S. Thank you for tolerating my Regrowth and Dreams questions I didnt know if you missed them or they were just bad.

r0ckstAr
05-30-2008, 04:03 PM
Lately, I have been wondering : how is orim's chant a better choice than thoughtseize ?

I know how amazing it is in combination with vexing shusher, but in nearly any other case I think I'd rather play thoughtseize, then know if I can win or not.

Arsenal
05-30-2008, 04:04 PM
Orim's Chant is invaluable in the combo mirror, stopping your opponent mid-combo (after he's already commited alot of resources) whereas Thoughtseize cannot.

BreathWeapon
05-30-2008, 07:04 PM
My question is, in a random metagame is pyroblast, or shattering spree better in a totaly random metagame? I think that shattering spree would be but thats just me. You have shusher and potentialy swarm for the board.

Also why did you take out the 1 SB seize? I have wanted to wish for disruption VERY often

Wishing for disruption is kind of pointless, because if they have permission, you can bait with Infernal Contract or Diminishing Returns, and if they don't have permission, you win instead of resolving a 1RB Duress.

I won a Mox Pearl this afternoon, same MD 3 Empty the Warrens and 2 Glimmervoid configuration I used in the last tournament report, but SB Hull Breach instead of Cleanfall because I never, ever resolve Burning Wish thru' Counterbalance and it's much easier to cast.

Seeing a lot of Blue Elemental Blasts and Rule of Law in Landstill SBs for what it's worth.

Jak
05-30-2008, 07:07 PM
Wishing for disruption is kind of pointless, because if they have permission, you can bait with Infernal Contract or Diminishing Returns, and if they don't have permission, you win instead of resolving a 1RB Duress.

I won a Mox Pearl this afternoon, same MD 3 Empty the Warrens and 2 Glimmervoid configuration I used in the last tournament report, but SB Hull Breach instead of Cleanfall because I never, ever resolve Burning Wish thru' Counterbalance and it's much easier to cast.

Seeing a lot of Blue Elemental Blasts and Rule of Law in Landstill SBs for what it's worth.

Write a tourney report, please. I want to read about how it all worked.

r0ckstAr
05-31-2008, 10:30 AM
Orim's Chant is invaluable in the combo mirror, stopping your opponent mid-combo (after he's already commited alot of resources) whereas Thoughtseize cannot.

I didn't think about that, as combo mirror is nearly inexistant in my metagame (despite of ichorid). At 40-50 player tourneys, I'm usually the only guy playing combo storm ^^

Edit : I believe the real reason is thoughtseize doesn't protect iggy pop very well.

undone
06-01-2008, 05:02 PM
Or diminishing returns. And it also eats thier mana or an extra card (IE hands with Force, force, stifle are auto loses for iggy pop thoughtseize. but chant laughs when you dont have another blue card/want to go off now.)

In any event Orims costs the same but is just BETTER in almost all MUs.

I am loving this deck and feel it is insanely consistent. But like all combo decks sometimes you just cant get there. Usualy this is rare. But I really have started to dislike halfing my life vs anything NOT control. I dont love them as much vs alot of decks. But sadly I agree theres nothing better then the draw 4s other then ETW. Which I am tempted to try.

BreathWeapon
06-01-2008, 07:12 PM
Or diminishing returns. And it also eats thier mana or an extra card (IE hands with Force, force, stifle are auto loses for iggy pop thoughtseize. but chant laughs when you dont have another blue card/want to go off now.)

In any event Orims costs the same but is just BETTER in almost all MUs.

I am loving this deck and feel it is insanely consistent. But like all combo decks sometimes you just cant get there. Usualy this is rare. But I really have started to dislike halfing my life vs anything NOT control. I dont love them as much vs alot of decks. But sadly I agree theres nothing better then the draw 4s other then ETW. Which I am tempted to try.

The biggest issue with the Draw 4s is that both of them are bricks after a Diminishing Returns, I'd consider either Tinder Wall or Abeyance in that slot if 3 Empty the Warrens doesn't work out for you.

Bryant Cook
06-01-2008, 07:23 PM
The biggest issue with the Draw 4s is that both of them are bricks after a Diminishing Returns, I'd consider either Tinder Wall or Abeyance in that slot if 3 Empty the Warrens doesn't work out for you.

Neither of those cards fill the roll that Infernal Contract does and that's find a tutor effect. Not to mention, Contract is amazing after mulligans or bad hands. It also helps you against control by out card advantaging them. The best advice I can give is learn to like them.

BreathWeapon
06-01-2008, 08:58 PM
Neither of those cards fill the roll that Infernal Contract does and that's find a tutor effect. Not to mention, Contract is amazing after mulligans or bad hands. It also helps you against control by out card advantaging them. The best advice I can give is learn to like them.

Sure, but the slot isn't integral, if he doesn't care for Infernal Contract then he can run a substitute that increases either his acceleration or disruption. I should have said my biggest problem with Infernal Contract is that it's a Diminishing Returns brick, not to insinuate Infernal Contract is a bad choice.

Bryant Cook
06-01-2008, 09:05 PM
Neither of those cards fill the roll that Infernal Contract does and that's find a tutor effect. Not to mention, Contract is amazing after mulligans or bad hands. It also helps you against control by out card advantaging them. The best advice I can give is learn to like them.

BreathWeapon
06-02-2008, 03:22 AM
Brainstorm and Ponder find tutor effects, Infernal Contact is, has been and will always be filler.

Bryant Cook
06-02-2008, 10:29 AM
Brainstorm and Ponder find tutor effects, Infernal Contact is, has been and will always be filler.

Statements like this is ridiculous. It its not a filler, it lets you come back from card disadvantage, like mulligans, bad hands, or Chrome Mox. It also finds tutors, none of the cards you mentioned fill the roll that Contract does. You can't compare cantrips to a draw spell. This is going to be the last discussion I have on this with you, I'll keep putting up winning results.

Reagens
06-02-2008, 03:47 PM
Some advice required on the results of a testing session last week:

UGB-Thresh pre-side + post-side

Before sideboarding everything revolves around you being able to resolve chant before they resolve counterbalance. I had some very decent opening hands and managed to go about 40/60 in ten games. His disruption package contains 4 Force, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle (he plays phyrexian dreadnoughts as well but only once cast it) 2 spell snare, 3 counterbalance.
The most difficult part is waiting for chant in some instances, because you know they'll have counterbalance sooner or later.

Post-side shusher really is the deal. Disadvantage being that tokens are no longer the most viable option because he sides engineered plague in. Another very nice advantge is that shusher limits there boarding because they have to keep their creature hate in. Numbers were not representative because my opponent replayed some situations because he underestimated and didin't know shusher. The testing felt good, because I am under the impression that every single mistake on the thresh player's part can create a game winning situation.

Next was post-side life from the loam.

8-2 for loam.

I won 2 games on tokens (1 needing to spree his mox diamond to avoid the burning wish -> pyroclasm)

The other games:

2 times first turn chalice for 1/0
2 times first turn chalice 0 followed by second turn chalice for 1.
2 times chalice followed by gaddock
1 game I got therapied 3 times + chalice altough he only plays one cabal on side/
It went like first turn land + mox -> dark confidant
Second turn land -> burning wish, cabal, flash back cabal with confi
Third turn land -> burning wish for cabal, cast cabal
Fourth turn chalice

For reference his boarding as far as I could tell:

-3 Life from the loam
-4 Terminate

+ 4 chalice
+ 3 gaddock

His main board contains 3 or 4 thoughtseize

My boarding:

+ 2 shattering spree
- 2 orim's chant

I'm wondering if I shouldn't board my shushers as well, or at least 2. (I think shusher is more useful because I can cast through chalice then...)

Bryant Cook
06-02-2008, 04:01 PM
Some advice required on the results of a testing session last week:

UGB-ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh pre-side + post-side

Before sideboarding everything revolves around you being able to resolve chant before they resolve counterbalance. I had some very decent opening hands and managed to go about 40/60 in ten games. His disruption package contains 4 Force, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle (he plays phyrexian dreadnoughts as well but only once cast it) 2 spell snare, 3 counterbalance.
The most difficult part is waiting for chant in some instances, because you know they'll have counterbalance sooner or later.

Post-side shusher really is the deal. Disadvantage being that tokens are no longer the most viable option because he sides engineered plague in. Another very nice advantge is that shusher limits there boarding because they have to keep their creature hate in. Numbers were not representative because my opponent replayed some situations because he underestimated and didin't know shusher. The testing felt good, because I am under the impression that every single mistake on the thresh player's part can create a game winning situation.

Next was post-side life from the loam.

8-2 for loam.

I won 2 games on tokens (1 needing to spree his mox diamond to avoid the burning wish -> pyroclasm)

The other games:

2 times first turn chalice for 1/0
2 times first turn chalice 0 followed by second turn chalice for 1.
2 times chalice followed by gaddock
1 game I got therapied 3 times + chalice altough he only plays one cabal on side/
It went like first turn land + mox -> dark confidant
Second turn land -> burning wish, cabal, flash back cabal with confi
Third turn land -> burning wish for cabal, cast cabal
Fourth turn chalice

For reference his boarding as far as I could tell:

-3 Life from the loam
-4 Terminate

+ 4 chalice
+ 3 gaddock

His main board contains 3 or 4 thoughtseize

My boarding:

+ 2 shattering spree
- 2 orim's chant

I'm wondering if I shouldn't board my shushers as well, or at least 2. (I think shusher is more useful because I can cast through chalice then...)

Sideout Warrens, side in the other Shattering Spree. Take out 2 Ponder for 2 Shusher and try again.

undone
06-03-2008, 05:03 PM
I just want to say something which seems generaly true.

This is the most skill leveraging deck in the format. An example is the MUC matchup. another person who has only had the deck for like a week with little play testing played 5 games and won 1. I have been goldfishing and testing the deck for like 10+ weeks, and played the MU 4 times won 3.

Personaly I think that there are so many options especialy when playing without a clock. When the opponent has no clock, you just win. When they do have a clock the MU is rarely worse then 45-55 if your good with mulls.

Not that this is a revilation but It begs the question. Is understanding how to play the deck, or understanding how to play each card in it more important?

Other question is aside from threshold/fish what are this decks bad MUs? Are there any?

NQN
06-03-2008, 05:07 PM
Dragonstompy and Staxx are really tough. Vorosh.dec/Goyf-Still too.

undone
06-04-2008, 02:53 PM
Fair enough. Seems like the definition of bad MU for this deck is 50/50 based on skill of pilot+ opponent

kicks_422
06-04-2008, 06:48 PM
There's really no bad match up. Only bad players.

WanderingMage20
06-05-2008, 12:22 AM
Lol thanks for throwin me under under the bus Undone. :P

Really it's not my general playskill that was my undoing Moday, but rather a rash of utterly unplayable hands that I tried to make work. I'm still trying to figure out the acceptably bad hands from the truly unplayables. Add to that I was drawing a ridiculous number of Diminishing Returns for it being a singleton and it all amounts to some really bad luck.

Also alot of times this deck feels like Grim Long and I try to go off before I really can. Now that I realize that its not quite as explosive as I think Im sitting back a little more and waiting for the pieces to come together.

I realized, after you left Undone, why I didnt go for Iggy in that game u were semi watching. I was a mana short on the loop because I had a Dark Rit instead of a second LED. That would have left me with 5 mana to play IT and Tendrils. Which of course doesnt really work.

To Bryant, I'm really enjoying this creation of yours. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Dilettante
06-05-2008, 06:52 AM
Just remember to add your mana to 8 if going on a IGGy/Tendrils loop off a Tutor/Multi-B. Wish. Then calculate storm count. If you can't get to 4 spells before casting the Tutor/Wish and you only have 8 mana, you're short. If you have less than 4 spells and you still generate that 8 mana, it's a good opportunity for Slithermuse/D.Returns instead.

Slithermuse has been amazing for me, personally, but... I face an environment where I can 'goldfish' a lot more against my opponents compared to some other people's metas. The disruption I face is generally more discard than counter based, so Slithermuse lets me recover from such.


Lol thanks for throwin me under under the bus Undone. :P

Really it's not my general playskill that was my undoing Moday, but rather a rash of utterly unplayable hands that I tried to make work. I'm still trying to figure out the acceptably bad hands from the truly unplayables. Add to that I was drawing a ridiculous number of Diminishing Returns for it being a singleton and it all amounts to some really bad luck.

Also alot of times this deck feels like Grim Long and I try to go off before I really can. Now that I realize that its not quite as explosive as I think Im sitting back a little more and waiting for the pieces to come together.

I realized, after you left Undone, why I didnt go for Iggy in that game u were semi watching. I was a mana short on the loop because I had a Dark Rit instead of a second LED. That would have left me with 5 mana to play IT and Tendrils. Which of course doesnt really work.

To Bryant, I'm really enjoying this creation of yours. Thanks for sharing it with us.

undone
06-05-2008, 09:22 AM
@WanderingMage20- lol sorry. But its like bryant said this deck is retarted. You can outskill just about anything. Dont feel bad thou it took me about 3 months to just learn to play around 1 Force/daze/stifle. I still have to learn to play around 2+ in what combination and all forms of other disruption.

The deck is hard to learn Im not going to lie. Or else the deck would be BANZORED. Because it would show up in T8s in large quantitys all the time.

It just reminds me of affinity super hard to beat, but hard to play correctly.

Bryant Cook
06-05-2008, 09:55 AM
I realized, after you left Undone, why I didnt go for Iggy in that game u were semi watching. I was a mana short on the loop because I had a Dark Rit instead of a second LED. That would have left me with 5 mana to play IT and Tendrils. Which of course doesnt really work.

You can win with the Igg Loop with five mana floating, you just get back Dark Ritual, LED, Tutor -> Tendrils. It seems you just don't know how much mana you actually need to win the game. I recommend a lot of goldfishing. The deck is very explosive when you know what to do.

BreathWeapon
06-05-2008, 11:20 AM
The "learning curve" for TES isn't more difficult than the "learning curve" for Landstill etc. it's just counter intuitive when you compare it to the non-Storm decks in MTG. As long as you take enough time and goldfish, play test and compete in tournaments with it, the mechanics will become second nature to you.

Don't fall into the "storm player's fallacy," there's no hidden bar for learning how to play TES other than accepting you don't know how to play TES and the bulk of your MTG experience is irrelevant when attempting to do so.

Wallace
06-05-2008, 11:44 AM
While goldfishing is a great way to learn the in's and out's of TES, watching someone that really knows hoe tho play the deck is a great help too. I picked this deck up after watching most of Bryant's 8-0-1 run in Hadley. I got to see how the deck is supposed to work and how to play against some of TES's bad mu's. It was a big help...

detroitpro
06-05-2008, 12:16 PM
Well that leads me to ask....Are there any videos on how to play (correctly) TES? Maybe even something posted by Bryant?

Shriekmaw
06-05-2008, 12:17 PM
While goldfishing is a great way to learn the in's and out's of TES, watching someone that really knows hoe tho play the deck is a great help too. I picked this deck up after watching most of Bryant's 8-0-1 run in Hadley. I got to see how the deck is supposed to work and how to play against some of TES's bad mu's. It was a big help...


I think playing TES is no different than any other combo deck I have played in all my years in the game. Learning the different card interactions shouldn't take long at all. Goldfishing only helps so much, I think actually tournament play is what players really need to look into in order to get a good grasp on the deck.

I don't want to bash players especially Bryant, but there are a lot of hands where I wouldn't keep but he would. It happens a lot where he would keep a bad hand and just top decks into the cards he needs in order to win.

I've tested the deck a lot when I was in Virigina, but found it was just too inconsistent. This was before ponder was in the format, so maybe with the addition of ponder, it becomes more consistent than it was when I began testing it.

I personally prefer the Iggy Pop list I've been playing, even though it doesn't have the explosivenss of TES, but I believe the consistency is better with fetch lands and basics.

undone
06-05-2008, 06:53 PM
TES, is very "Im good to you if you play me right" I think. Seriously I read his report and am often like "if there was a land..." and hes on the draw and he tops 1 of 10 lands and goes off. The also the reason he couldnt go off is that he would have to iggy for chant chant wish/IT (he had force stifle spell snare he would get back) I may not have seen the mox not being unimprinted but you were playing vs MUC. Not an amazing MU, but The deck doesnt have enough outs.

No offence to that MU (nearing an awful MU at about 50/50 or slightly better:tongue: ), but post board is hellfrigginglarious. swarm/shusher, go. T2 Win, kill you.

This deck is probably 1 if not the best deck in the format (It has NO MU worse then 50/50 if your great with it or named bryant cook.) BUT it is one of if not the MOST difficult deck to learn in all of magic (WELL IN VINTAGE... theres TPS.... and other storm decks)

Honestly theres a couple things about this deck that are unique to it.

You can play beltcher esque games with ETW. Or you can play FT/IGGy pop game types that go to turn 3-5. You also have the best recovery in the game in terms of top decks. You have about 13 cards that are bombs in topdecks. (draw 4s, D turns, ETW, IGGy, and 8 tutors.) As well as 8 cantrips that up consistentcy.

Granted..... Im not for the draw 4s... but sadly they are a needed evil, they make mulling better, give you overwhelming CA, and degenerate speed. Very very good, sadly though they are a little risky.(unless your name is bryant cook where you Draw 4 into LED, lotus pedal, IT, D ritual, about a 1/4th of the time:laugh: )

In short, your not playing regular magic when you play TES. Your playing a combination of poker and magic.

Reading your opponent, calling thier bluff. READING THE DECK and rolling the dice is how the deck works.

Aj-capra
06-08-2008, 08:06 AM
Hi, this is my first post. Sorry for my english.

I'm thinking to play in my SD 2/3 Krosan Grip versus CB. It's a good card. You can play Krosan eot and storming in your turn.

Versus ichorid I play in my SD 2/3 Wheel of Sun and Moon. It's a good card versus tide,also.

@edit:

This is my list:

// Lands
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [SC] Xantid Swarm

// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [7E] Tranquility
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher

I must play two xantid MD because in my metagame there're a lot of Thresh and blue decks.

undone
06-08-2008, 01:40 PM
Aj-capra [deck]

EWWW less then 4 IT is insane. start with

-2 mystic tutor
-2 cabal ritual
-1 undiscovered paradice
-2 xantid swarm

First off, mystic tutor is horrible, it has been discussed throughly and isnt playable. Cabal is the same way. Undiscovered isnt needed you need exactly 10 lands. Swarm in the main is awful it means they keep in removal against you, if you must play play more disruption play P blast.

+1 IT
+4 ponder
+2 variable slots which could be draw 4s, ETW or if you REALLY think it would help some blasts (ETW is best in a thresh meta)

SB
-2 wheel of sun and moon
-1 cave in
-1 tranquility
-1 IT (YOU NEVER WISH FOR IT)
-2 REB

+2 xantid swarm
+1 ETW
+1 Cleanfall
+2 Vexing susher
+1 pyroclasm

Clasm> Cave in
Swarm is a SB card > REB
Cleanfall is better then tranquility, but it doesnt matter
Ichorid loses this MU, wheel of sun and moon sucks against it, even if you were to play more hate it would be abances and nothing else.

ETW MUST BE 1 SBED!!!!!!! You need to be able to get to 6 wish for and play it

matelml
06-08-2008, 02:22 PM
EWWW less then 4 IT is insane. start with

-2 mystic tutor
-2 cabal ritual
-1 undiscovered paradice
-2 xantid swarm

First off, mystic tutor is horrible, it has been discussed throughly and isnt playable. Cabal is the same way. Undiscovered isnt needed you need exactly 10 lands. Swarm in the main is awful it means they keep in removal against you, if you must play play more disruption play P blast.

+1 IT
+4 ponder
+2 variable slots which could be draw 4s, ETW or if you REALLY think it would help some blasts (ETW is best in a thresh meta)

SB
-2 wheel of sun and moon
-1 cave in
-1 tranquility
-1 IT (YOU NEVER WISH FOR IT)
-2 REB

+2 xantid swarm
+1 ETW
+1 Cleanfall
+2 Vexing susher
+1 pyroclasm

Clasm> Cave in
Swarm is a SB card > REB
Cleanfall is better then tranquility, but it doesnt matter
Ichorid loses this MU, wheel of sun and moon sucks against it, even if you were to play more hate it would be abances and nothing else.

ETW MUST BE 1 SBED!!!!!!! You need to be able to get to 6 wish for and play it

Look, why bother with the -a, -b, -c; +d, +e, +f, when all you want to say is: "Just copy the current list Bryant uses.".

I don't think that is something people are looking for, I suspect they are smart enough to just copy the list mentioned most if they want to.
It's not like Bryants current list is they one and only good TES list. There are some slots that should not be changed, but a lot of slots are pretty open. Some things are a matter of preference.
It's not true that Cabal Ritual is unplayable in TES, I play it twice and not because I can't find the standard list. It's very good when there are many Hymns in your meta and sucks less than the 4th SSG I believe because you never want 2 of those. (The same for Mox)
10 lands isn't the only way either, 11 is fine, if you play a little different. My list plays 11 lands, 3 Moxes and 3 SSG, so I am a little more consistent and a little slower.
Xantid Swarm is a fine card, I won a lot with TES with 4 Swarm main and if he needs more than 4 protection in his meta, fine.
The 4th Tutor main IS pretty necessary, I agree.
Also I would add some Ponders instead of the Mysticals and maybe 1 SSG/Chrome Mox. 4 is definitely not necessary, but at least 2 is good.
1 EtW in the SB is very, very, very important. This may just be a mistake, but you should really change that. I'm not impressed with the Wheel, Sb, but ok.

Aj-capra
06-08-2008, 02:22 PM
I'm not thinking who ichorid is a easy mutchup.

Infernal tutor in SD, for me, is very important because a lot of times I could not do ten spells.

Xantid MD is a personal choice.

I'm considering to play krosan grip in SD...

Mystical tutor main:

- various ritual
- infernal
- wish
- orim

Mystical tutor side:

- spree,also

matelml
06-08-2008, 02:28 PM
I'm not thinking who ichorid is a easy mutchup.

Infernal tutor in SD, for me, is very important because a lot of times I could not do ten spells.

Xantid MD is a personal choice, but I reject it probably.

I'm considering to play krosan grip in SD...

Ichorid is not an easy matchup, but not prevalent enough to Sb against it. And Leyline is better than the Wheel. Against Solidarity, it doesn't matter much, as it doesn't stop the combo and at they end of their combo they will just bounce it. It matters a bit, but both Ichorid and Solidarity aren't that common.

10 spells shouldn't be a big problem, Ponder helps a lot here. You can also go Whish->Whish cause it removes itself and 10 spells isn't always necessary, when you can't get to 10, you can use EtW.

I wouldn't play more than 4 protection Sb, but if your meta is extreme, it's possible. Krosan Grip is possible Sb, I don't think it's very good, but a lot better than Wheel of Sun and Moon.

Mystical isn't good in this deck, but you might need to find out yourself. When you have some experience with Mystical, try Ponder and look if it works better.

myselves
06-10-2008, 03:33 PM
Ichorid is not an easy matchup, but not prevalent enough to Sb against it. And Leyline is better than the Wheel. Against Solidarity, it doesn't matter much, as it doesn't stop the combo and at they end of their combo they will just bounce it. It matters a bit, but both Ichorid and Solidarity aren't that common.

Ichorid is to slow, you usually have 2-3 Turns to kill them via Tendrils or go for Diminishing Returns, which hurts them a lot.

I played the deck on two of the last three tournaments I took part in, I cut a C.Mox and a Ponder for 2 Manamorphose and I'm very satisfied with this decision till now. They just increase the Stormcount and enables you to cast D.R. out of RoF or something like this. And also they are a Cantrip and are still able to enable a BS or anything like this.
Comments?

Mayk0l
06-11-2008, 01:16 AM
Ichorid isn't an easy MU but it certainly is favorable. Sometimes, Ichorid goes nuts turn 1, but it's much more prevalent on the TES side. Even though Ichorid doesn't play all that many spells, I'd advice against taking Chants out (if there is anything at all you'd want to board) because Cabal Therapy is a nasty card against you.
Although I have to admit, it rarely has a big impact because my opponent always topdecks a new tutor the next turn 99,6% of the time anyway.

Shriekmaw
06-11-2008, 11:40 AM
Ichorid isn't an easy MU but it certainly is favorable. Sometimes, Ichorid goes nuts turn 1, but it's much more prevalent on the TES side. Even though Ichorid doesn't play all that many spells, I'd advice against taking Chants out (if there is anything at all you'd want to board) because Cabal Therapy is a nasty card against you.
Although I have to admit, it rarely has a big impact because my opponent always topdecks a new tutor the next turn 99,6% of the time anyway.


I think the matchup is pretty even depending on who wins the die roll. The winner of the die roll is usually favored by a little in this matchup. I don't understand why you think TES is favored. Ichorid can win just as fast as TES. I understand that Ichorid is a lot more inconsistent than TES, but we are talking about combo decks and sometimes they do lose to themselves.

Bryant Cook
06-11-2008, 12:58 PM
I think the matchup is pretty even depending on who wins the die roll. The winner of the die roll is usually favored by a little in this matchup. I don't understand why you think TES is favored. Ichorid can win just as fast as TES. I understand that Ichorid is a lot more inconsistent than TES, but we are talking about combo decks and sometimes they do lose to themselves.

I've now played the match-up six times in sanctioned magic, I've only lost to it once.

myselves
06-11-2008, 02:15 PM
I think the matchup is pretty even depending on who wins the die roll. The winner of the die roll is usually favored by a little in this matchup. I don't understand why you think TES is favored. Ichorid can win just as fast as TES. I understand that Ichorid is a lot more inconsistent than TES, but we are talking about combo decks and sometimes they do lose to themselves.
No, never!
TES is at least a turn faster, you just have to keep in mind that you shouldn't go for EtW, cause his Tokens are the bigger one. Go for Tendrils of D.Returns and eat him alive, that's it.

I've played both decks this year on a lot of tournaments, I've played one Game with Ichorid against TES, I lost 1:2, I won the one game, cause he just went for EtW during his second turn.
With TES I lost one against Ichorid, and that just 0:2 cause he was lucky (1stturnkill wins. Chalice and 2ndturnkill wins also).
With TES against Icho you'll have nearly every time you want, he's not that fast than you are, and this fact puts him under presure, he have to be fast, you just have to sit there, relax and show him the kill or D.Returns, which takes him out of the game for a few turns in most cases.

Ewokslayer
06-11-2008, 02:26 PM
I've now played the match-up six times in sanctioned magic, I've only lost to it once.

Wonderful, would you like a cookie?

Bryant Cook
06-11-2008, 02:45 PM
Wonderful, would you like a cookie?

I would, chocolate chip is preferred.

BreathWeapon
06-11-2008, 03:06 PM
I think the matchup is pretty even depending on who wins the die roll. The winner of the die roll is usually favored by a little in this matchup. I don't understand why you think TES is favored. Ichorid can win just as fast as TES. I understand that Ichorid is a lot more inconsistent than TES, but we are talking about combo decks and sometimes they do lose to themselves.

TES is favored vs Ichorid because TES is faster and more consistent than Ichorid, and Ichorid relies on both not muliganing and being on the draw for Cephalid Coliseum. In a blind match up, Ichorid will often choose to draw first and then TES will either get to goldfish or leverage Orim's Chant.

Ichorid just has strategy inferiority to Storm combo, which isn't that unreasonable when you can DDD all day vs U.dec

Shriekmaw
06-11-2008, 03:48 PM
TES is favored vs Ichorid because TES is faster and more consistent than Ichorid, and Ichorid relies on both not muliganing and being on the draw for Cephalid Coliseum. In a blind match up, Ichorid will often choose to draw first and then TES will either get to goldfish or leverage Orim's Chant.

Ichorid just has strategy inferiority to Storm combo, which isn't that unreasonable when you can DDD all day vs U.dec


First of all like I said before, the matchup is spillt pretty evenlly. I believe TES is more consistent out of the 2 decks, but in terms of speed they both have the ability to win turn 1. As far as muligaining goes, they are both combo decks, so if one deck has to mulligan and one doesn't who do you think would have the advantage. When you play combo mullgaining does hurt your deck more than another archetype.

I don't think your last statement is very wise, b/c Ichorid wrecks your hand and then just wins. How is that inferior?

myselves
06-11-2008, 03:57 PM
First of all like I said before, the matchup is spillt pretty evenlly. I believe TES is more consistent out of the 2 decks, but in terms of speed they both have the ability to win turn 1. As far as muligaining goes, they are both combo decks, so if one deck has to mulligan and one doesn't who do you think would have the advantage. When you play combo mullgaining does hurt your deck more than another archetype.

I don't think your last statement is very wise, b/c Ichorid wrecks your hand and then just wins. How is that inferior?

Cabal Therapy against unknown opp., which card would you take? But of course it wrecks the hand...
Ichorid has to mull more often than TES does for a real good hand, TES is faster, so the guy playin' Ichorid must mull quite more to a good hand.
TES is more consistent and faster, so why should Ichorid be a bad MU.
I don't want to repeat myself several times, so just test or believe me.

BreathWeapon
06-11-2008, 05:02 PM
First of all like I said before, the matchup is spillt pretty evenlly. I believe TES is more consistent out of the 2 decks, but in terms of speed they both have the ability to win turn 1. As far as muligaining goes, they are both combo decks, so if one deck has to mulligan and one doesn't who do you think would have the advantage. When you play combo mullgaining does hurt your deck more than another archetype.

I don't think your last statement is very wise, b/c Ichorid wrecks your hand and then just wins. How is that inferior?

Once more from the top, Ichorid isn't as fast or as consistent as TES (in goldfishing terms, DDD is as consistent as it gets) and that's an observation made from some one who has piloted both decks. What speed Ichorid has depends in part on Cephalid Coliseum, so Ichorid has to draw and has to not mulligan in order to retain a portion of its speed, because it needs Threshold for the Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis chain. Combo vs combo, it's not about who does and doesn't mulligan, but who is free to mulligan into the most aggressive hand possible, and Ichorid is restrained from doing that.

Reading comprehension 4TW, I said Ichorid has strategy inferiority because Ichorid's default strategy is to draw and to keep vs an unknown opponent, and that is what favors TES.

Mayk0l
06-12-2008, 01:04 AM
First of all like I said before, the matchup is spillt pretty evenlly. I believe TES is more consistent out of the 2 decks, but in terms of speed they both have the ability to win turn 1.
Yes but for Ichorid this is an exception. My regular TES oppponent wins turn 1-3 on average. If he has to be fast, he will be fast. For Ichorid it's a lot harder to go off turn 1 and my average of 'going off' (defined against TES as dredging so much to reliably get one or two Therapies in your graveyard) is turn 2-3. TES is always a turn faster. And Therapy loses a lot of its power when the TES player can BS in response.

For Teh Ichroidz to go off turn 1 you need LED. TES has so many more ways of going off turn 1, it's so dang easy for them to make a lot of mana and tutor for the win.



As far as muligaining goes, they are both combo decks, so if one deck has to mulligan and one doesn't who do you think would have the advantage. When you play combo mullgaining does hurt your deck more than another archetype.

Not entirely true. Mulliganing can be very forgiving on Ichorid. You just win if that 4-card hand has the right combination, and odds aren't that bad. TES's mulligans are worse, because you lose a card for your Storm.



I don't think your last statement is very wise, b/c Ichorid wrecks your hand and then just wins. How is that inferior?
He was referring to the fact that Storm combo is faster than Dredge combo. Therapy is indeed Ichorid's main (and only) strategy against TES. Sometimes you win simply through Therapies, but it's harder than it sounds.


Truth be that TES is one of the only not-favourable MU's preboard for Ichorid.

cwt1220
06-25-2008, 11:44 PM
This question is for Bryant or anyone playing TES in 'Cuse on the 19th. What are the sideboard cards that you are running for the metagame out there?
Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris

Di
06-25-2008, 11:49 PM
Given that it's going to be a large event, you can't really specify what is exactly going to be there; I expect the metagame to be varied. However, given this is in Syracuse, you can expect a high number of Landstill and Counterbalances. So if anything, prepare to face a lot of blue.

esmandil
06-27-2008, 06:51 AM
I am still trying to wrap my head around playing this deck after sideboarding... with 2 Xantid Swarms and 4 Vexing Shushers, it does play quite differently that "normal" version.

Anyway, I have a question about first turn. I quite often have an option to do something like 1st turn Land, Petal, Vexing Shusher.

Is this a good play? In my experience it often allows me to get one attack with Shusher, and sometimes I manage two. Getting storm count 8 is much easier than getting 10... but I have found the difference between 9 and 10 to be much less significant.

So, what do you think: are those 2-4 points damage worth a card?

BreathWeapon
06-27-2008, 08:33 AM
I am still trying to wrap my head around playing this deck after sideboarding... with 2 Xantid Swarms and 4 Vexing Shushers, it does play quite differently that "normal" version.

Anyway, I have a question about first turn. I quite often have an option to do something like 1st turn Land, Petal, Vexing Shusher.

Is this a good play? In my experience it often allows me to get one attack with Shusher, and sometimes I manage two. Getting storm count 8 is much easier than getting 10... but I have found the difference between 9 and 10 to be much less significant.

So, what do you think: are those 2-4 points damage worth a card?

I doubt it, wasting a Lotus Petal to a removal is terrible, but if it were Chrome Mox, sure.

Aj-capra
07-02-2008, 03:49 PM
Hi friends!!!

Now I play this list:

// Lands
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [SC] Xantid Swarm / cabal terphay / Thoughtseize

// Spells
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
1 [7E] Infernal Contract
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [SHM] Manamorphose

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip

SB:

I'd play:

- Whell of Sun and Moon and Krosan Grip
+ Rack and ruin, Ingot Chewer, Serenity or Hurkyl's Recall


In my metagame there're a lot of stax and it's a not good game.
I'd play overmaster in my side too, but I've few slots.

Brehn
07-02-2008, 06:09 PM
I doubt it, wasting a Lotus Petal to a removal is terrible, but if it were Chrome Mox, sure.

This somewhat irritates me, I thought Chrome Mox was the first card to be boarded out for Shushers/Swarms/Blasts. Do you board out SSGs instead?

BreathWeapon
07-02-2008, 07:52 PM
This somewhat irritates me, I thought Chrome Mox was the first card to be boarded out for Shushers/Swarms/Blasts. Do you board out SSGs instead?

It depends, I SB out either Chrome Mox or Simian Spirit Guide based on the number of Pernicious Deeds and/or Engineered Explosives in the opponent's MD and the amount of Wastelands in their manabase. You either don't want to get two for oned or you don't want to get mana screwed, so you adapt your boarding strategy to the opponent's disruption suite.

Also, I have more SBing options because I pre-board 2 Empty the Warrens and SB them out based on their removal (MD Engineered Explosives, SB Pyroclasm etc.) instead of MDing 2 Draw 4s.

raharu
07-07-2008, 12:54 AM
Whilst looking up a card posted in the Landstill thread (Fracturng Gust) I ran across an interesting card by the name of Gustha's Scepter. I know it's either win-more, not enough, or too prone to artifact removal for it's own good, but I was wondering if it could be a feasable SB card against heavy Discard stratiges, somewhat like extra SDTs (this is a cross post from the FT thread) that function differently, or Brainstorms that are more than one shot. I'm fairly sure it's not up to the grade, but I presume introducing semifeasable innovation so it can be optimized or discarded is what these boards are for :\ I think CB would be a better choice though.

BreathWeapon
07-07-2008, 07:19 AM
Not in TES, but it does have sweet implications with LED, so I'd consider Trinket Mage for Gustha's Scepter and LED shenanigans else where.

Bryant Cook
07-20-2008, 07:58 PM
Tournament report from my 4th place finish found Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=252411#post252411).

TeKo
08-03-2008, 07:18 PM
Short question to you Bryant: Why do you play Brainstorm over Ponder, without real shuffling effects?

THEchubbymuffin
08-03-2008, 07:29 PM
Short question to you Bryant: Why do you play Brainstorm over Ponder, without real shuffling effects?

I think the best reason is because of discard. Thats why I like Brainstorm.

Jaiminho
08-03-2008, 07:45 PM
I think the best reason is because of discard. Thats why I like Brainstorm.

Not only because of that. Brainstorm accelerates into an almost "draw 3 cards", by replacing up to 2 useless cards in hand, allowing you to go off much earlier.

Bryant Cook
08-04-2008, 01:32 AM
Short question to you Bryant: Why do you play Brainstorm over Ponder, without real shuffling effects?

I play both.

slobad23
08-04-2008, 05:08 AM
I think what he meant was "why do you play 4 brainstorm and 3 ponder instead of 4 ponder and 3 brainstorm?"

but that has still been answered - brainstorm is a draw 3 relevant spells, throw away the garbage...

i have been played your older list bryant, with the 4 moxes, 4 ponder and a 2nd draw 4... and i like the addition of 3 thoughtseize!

the deck definitely needed some form of pro active card like that in addition to orim's chant - xantis swarm was not it.

I have been testing the list with some large amount of sucess. Grat's on the recent finish!

myselves
08-04-2008, 05:26 AM
I've some other question:
Why do you play Bargain/Contract as Draw4 over Meditate?

I tested it and it can be pretty amazing vs. Landstill, and actually I didn't find a Matchup where Meditate is worse than Draw4 in form of Bargain.
On the other hand meditate can't be abused as a Set-Up Spell at turn 1, are there some other pros of the black Draw4 compared to meditate?

slobad23
08-04-2008, 06:55 AM
bargain/contract:
- cast off a dark ritual
- draw 4 cards and get a turn straight after
- allows you to float black off a LED for either a drawn into draw 4 or tendrils or infernal (why would you realistically float blue?)


meditate:
- life loss advantage seems pretty irrelevant
- you lose your next turn allowing your opponent to brainstorm/lackey into some goodness!


I can see why people like meditate in fetchland for the doomsday stack because it requires less mana strains but TES doesnt really want meditate. i have played storm combo with meditate before and if you use it and fizzle or try to set up the combo with it... that extra turn they get is murder on you.

GreenOne
08-04-2008, 07:40 AM
bargain/contract:
- cast off a dark ritual
- draw 4 cards and get a turn straight after
- allows you to float black off a LED for either a drawn into draw 4 or tendrils or infernal (why would you realistically float blue?)

meditate:
- life loss advantage seems pretty irrelevant
- you lose your next turn allowing your opponent to brainstorm/lackey into some goodness!

I'm with you That bargain/Contract are better than Meditate in this deck, but you forgot to mention some of meditate's props.

- Can be cast on your opponent's turn. You skip a turn but on the next one you have like 10 cards in hand with all your mana open.
- Doesn't lose life, so if the opponent plays burn it doesn't put your life at risk.

Bryant Cook
08-04-2008, 12:24 PM
I think what he meant was "why do you play 4 brainstorm and 3 ponder instead of 4 ponder and 3 brainstorm?"

but that has still been answered - brainstorm is a draw 3 relevant spells, throw away the garbage...

i have been played your older list bryant, with the 4 moxes, 4 ponder and a 2nd draw 4... and i like the addition of 3 thoughtseize!



Thoughtsieze has been an amazing addition to the deck while freeing up sideboard slots. A great idea.

People have pretty much cleared up the Brainstorm and meditate problems.

In recent things, Ruined Halo is becoming a big problem, along with Gaddeck Teeg in the Syracuse Metagame. I've decided I can just win before Teeg comes down against Survival. I win game one, game two Teeg, game three I'm on the play. However, Ruined Halo while at the same costs, comes from control decks with Force of Will. The only logical thing I can think of besides swapping out Shatter Spree for Chain of Vapor (Which won't happen, then I have 0 chance of beating Dragon Stompy) is removing Pyroclasm for Grapeshot. Get your laughs out now, it's not terrible. They both kill the problematic creatures, being Meddling Mage and Gaddeck Teeg. Although, Grapeshot serves as a tertiary win condition. Has anyone here tried to Empty the Warrens against Landstill? EE and Wrath of God suck.

BreathWeapon
08-04-2008, 12:51 PM
Thoughtsieze has been an amazing addition to the deck while freeing up sideboard slots. A great idea.

People have pretty much cleared up the Brainstorm and meditate problems.

In recent things, Ruined Halo is becoming a big problem, along with Gaddeck Teeg in the Syracuse Metagame. I've decided I can just win before Teeg comes down against Survival. I win game one, game two Teeg, game three I'm on the play. However, Ruined Halo while at the same costs, comes from control decks with Force of Will. The only logical thing I can think of besides swapping out Shatter Spree for Chain of Vapor (Which won't happen, then I have 0 chance of beating Dragon Stompy) is removing Pyroclasm for Grapeshot. Get your laughs out now, it's not terrible. They both kill the problematic creatures, being Meddling Mage and Gaddeck Teeg. Although, Grapeshot serves as a tertiary win condition. Has anyone here tried to Empty the Warrens against Landstill? EE and Wrath of God suck.

Yes, I more or less go for IGG->ETW or ETW and either Orim's Chant and/or Burning Wish->Thought Seize, it's difficult for Landstill to deal with an ETW after a Runed Halo because their double WW investment keeps them off Counterspell for a turn and off Pernicious Deed for two turns, while Wrath of God is kind of slow.

Attacking our kill conditions just isn't a good idea, I don't see Runed Halo being superior to Meddling Mage against us, and if they have both, they can't have that many of each.

I like Grape Shot, I've been using it over Pyroclasm for awhile.

Brehn
08-04-2008, 01:02 PM
Yes, I more or less go for IGG->ETW or ETW and either Orim's Chant and/or Burning Wish->Thought Seize, it's difficult for Landstill to deal with an ETW after a Runed Halo because their double WW investment keeps them off Counterspell for a turn and off Pernicious Deed for two turns, while Wrath of God is kind of slow.

This sentence just makes no sense at all. Landstill decks with Runed Halo and Pernicious Deed don't exist. If LS runs Halo, it runs Wrath. Also, "Wrath of God is kinda slow" - to be exact, one turn slower than Deed. To race a Wrath, you'd have to EtW turn 2 on the play or turn 1 on the draw. That's not always possible - do you want to mulligan for that?


Attacking our kill conditions just isn't a good idea, I don't see Runed Halo being superior to Meddling Mage against us, and if they have both, they can't have that many of each.

At least Tranquility/Cleanfall is one mana more expensive than Pyroclasm/Grapeshot...


Thoughtseize has been an amazing addition to the deck while freeing up sideboard slots. A great idea.

QFT. But at the moment I'm still running a 2/1 main/side split because I never want to miss Burning Wish for Thoughtseize. I also don't want to miss the fourth Ponder in a deck with so few manipulation and unpowered Brainstorms, I have even thought about adding Sleight of Hand as Ponder #5.

Bryant Cook
08-04-2008, 01:05 PM
Yes, I more or less go for IGG->ETW or ETW and either Orim's Chant and/or Burning Wish->Thought Seize, it's difficult for Landstill to deal with an ETW after a Runed Halo because their double WW investment keeps them off Counterspell for a turn and off Pernicious Deed for two turns, while Wrath of God is kind of slow. I've tried this, it's easier in theory than practice.


Attacking our kill conditions just isn't a good idea, I don't see Runed Halo being superior to Meddling Mage against us, and if they have both, they can't have that many of each. It's a great strategy for Landstill, they play enough board sweepers in their deck where they just don't care about any other card than Tendrils. I play against Geoff Smelski a lot, he's by far one of the best Landstill players out there. Very consistent, makes top X in almost every event. He plays both Halo and Mage, I can deal with Mages via Pyroblast, however, Ruined Halo is much more difficult. I believe he plays 3 and 3, which is enough to draw them.


I like Grape Shot, I've been using it over Pyroclasm for awhile.I'm sure you have ;-p.

myselves
08-04-2008, 01:25 PM
Yes, I more or less go for IGG->ETW or ETW and either Orim's Chant and/or Burning Wish->Thought Seize, it's difficult for Landstill to deal with an ETW after a Runed Halo because their double WW investment keeps them off Counterspell for a turn and off Pernicious Deed for two turns, while Wrath of God is kind of slow.

Attacking our kill conditions just isn't a good idea, I don't see Runed Halo being superior to Meddling Mage against us, and if they have both, they can't have that many of each.

I like Grape Shot, I've been using it over Pyroclasm for awhile.

recurring EE>EtW and EE doesn't require BG
Halo>Tendrils, I've tested it the last weeks, and to my suprise I've won more Matches preboard against Landstill (UWb) than postboard.
Halo, Mage and Extirpate are a lot of stuff, in some cases to much stuff.

@Meditate vs. Black Draw4:
I've also tested it in the last weeks against Landstill, Thresh/w, Thresh/b and also in some Combo and Aggro Matchups.
Meditate is superior compared to Bargain/Contract against Landstill, breaking their Standstill in their own EoT-Phase can be very strong, the turn you miss doesn't matter, and it's not that bad than losing half of your life in this MU.
Against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh it depends on the situation, your hand and the board, but both Draw4 have something in common here:
if they resolve you have to win the turn after in most cases.
Against Aggro it doesn't matter, you'll just rape them anyway.
But also Meditate is pretty amazing in the Combo MU, when you sit there against you opponent, chanting them or mindgaming him with Chant, another Instantdraw can seal the deal in some situations.

Illissius
08-04-2008, 01:53 PM
Minor note, but the Halo is Runed, not Ruined.

BreathWeapon
08-04-2008, 02:06 PM
I've tried this, it's easier in theory than practice.

It's a great strategy for Landstill, they play enough board sweepers in their deck where they just don't care about any other card than Tendrils. I play against Geoff Smelski a lot, he's by far one of the best Landstill players out there. Very consistent, makes top X in almost every event. He plays both Halo and Mage, I can deal with Mages via Pyroblast, however, Ruined Halo is much more difficult. I believe he plays 3 and 3, which is enough to draw them.

I'm sure you have ;-p.

It's just one of those situations where there are no good decisions, and you have to maximize your chances of winning by risking losing instead of trying to directly address the problem.

If non-Artifact permanents are the issue, then Thought Seize and speed are probably your best choices, if Grape Shot doesn't work out.

Actually, I have, read a couple pages back :P

Nemcon
08-16-2008, 03:24 AM
Hey, I've been looking into this deck for a while as getting into Legacy seriously yet again. I've been goldfishing with this deck, and I'm just having trouble getting the math down. As well against other decks, like I don't know when to try to go off and when to wait another turn. Am I supposed to drop my draw/tutor spells when I don't go off? Or do I have them just for that 1-2 extra storm count? I know this deck is great that it can choose which win to go for, when do you know to tendrils and when to empty? It seems to me empty isn't as great when you can just hit for a lot with the tendrils, Meddling Mage or the such aside.

ParkerLewis
08-16-2008, 04:54 AM
Hey, I've been looking into this deck for a while as getting into Legacy seriously yet again. I've been goldfishing with this deck, and I'm just having trouble getting the math down. As well against other decks, like I don't know when to try to go off and when to wait another turn. Am I supposed to drop my draw/tutor spells when I don't go off? Or do I have them just for that 1-2 extra storm count? I know this deck is great that it can choose which win to go for, when do you know to tendrils and when to empty? It seems to me empty isn't as great when you can just hit for a lot with the tendrils, Meddling Mage or the such aside.

Very quick (and very simple) general rule of thumb : obviously, you try to go the tendrils route if you feel you'll be able to generate enough storm to make it lethal. If you think you'll have trouble reaching a high storm count, then EtW is your solution. Even if all you can generate is a very low storm count (4-6), EtW will give you enough creature power to kill in two swings (even if there's a critter on the oppoenent board, he usually has already lost a few life points by himself from fetches, confident, thoughtseize, whatever).

After that, it's basically all about practice. There will be less common cases where you'll just happen to cast to mini-tendrils that combined, are lethal. Or a mini tendrils followed by an EtW that will be lethal in one attack. But I think the previous rule of thumb is a valid starting point in a majority of games.

Nemcon
08-16-2008, 09:43 AM
Very quick (and very simple) general rule of thumb : obviously, you try to go the tendrils route if you feel you'll be able to generate enough storm to make it lethal. If you think you'll have trouble reaching a high storm count, then EtW is your solution. Even if all you can generate is a very low storm count (4-6), EtW will give you enough creature power to kill in two swings (even if there's a critter on the oppoenent board, he usually has already lost a few life points by himself from fetches, confident, thoughtseize, whatever).

After that, it's basically all about practice. There will be less common cases where you'll just happen to cast to mini-tendrils that combined, are lethal. Or a mini tendrils followed by an EtW that will be lethal in one attack. But I think the previous rule of thumb is a valid starting point in a majority of games.

Thanks for the heads up, I read a bit more and sort of understood knowing which win condition to go for, but something I still wonder is say I have a brainstorm in starting hand and seem to not be able to combo off T1. Do I play the brainstorm still EOT or do I wait until I'm ready to combo out to go and drop it?

BreathWeapon
08-16-2008, 10:34 AM
Thanks for the heads up, I read a bit more and sort of understood knowing which win condition to go for, but something I still wonder is say I have a brainstorm in starting hand and seem to not be able to combo off T1. Do I play the brainstorm still EOT or do I wait until I'm ready to combo out to go and drop it?

Brainstorm and Ponder are for setting up, you shouldn't be casting Brainstorm EOT in combo decks, you should be casting Brainstorm on your turn to draw 3 cards and either win or pass.

The card is multi-functional, but you shouldn't be holding it back just to hold it back unless you're going for mini-ETW storm counts etc.

ParkerLewis
08-16-2008, 11:48 AM
Thanks for the heads up, I read a bit more and sort of understood knowing which win condition to go for, but something I still wonder is say I have a brainstorm in starting hand and seem to not be able to combo off T1. Do I play the brainstorm still EOT or do I wait until I'm ready to combo out to go and drop it?

No problem ;) I had the same problem when I started with the deck, before realizing that EtW didn't need as much storm as Tendrils to be a threat :)

On the brainstorm part, BW is quite right, although i would put it a bit differently. As you probably noticed since you did specifically mentioned BS and not Ponder, the deck doesn't have any shuffle effect. Hence, you need to be able to do something with what BS finds you, because you usually can't afford to wait for another three draws to find a new card if what you revealed didn't fit your needs.

So, you usually play it more conservatively, and more specifically as a Sorcery, after your draw phase. This way, you'll be able to dig one card deeper with it than if you had played it at the opponent's previous EOT. One mana less to go off is usually not very important, in the worst case, you'll wait until next turn to untap. But one card less from BS can mean having to wait two additional turns to get it, and now that is usually too much and very risky.

tsabo_tavoc
08-17-2008, 04:50 AM
On the brainstorm part, BW is quite right, although i would put it a bit differently. As you probably noticed since you did specifically mentioned BS and not Ponder, the deck doesn't have any shuffle effect. Hence, you need to be able to do something with what BS finds you, because you usually can't afford to wait for another three draws to find a new card if what you revealed didn't fit your needs.

So, you usually play it more conservatively, and more specifically as a Sorcery, after your draw phase. This way, you'll be able to dig one card deeper with it than if you had played it at the opponent's previous EOT. One mana less to go off is usually not very important, in the worst case, you'll wait until next turn to untap. But one card less from BS can mean having to wait two additional turns to get it, and now that is usually too much and very risky.

Your point is absolutely convincing.

However, I don't risk to play Brainstorm in my main phases against Discard.dec. In addition, I do play Brainstorm EOT with a Ponder in hand which functions as a reshuffling effect.

BreathWeapon
08-17-2008, 08:55 AM
Your point is absolutely convincing.

However, I don't risk to play Brainstorm in my main phases against Discard.dec. In addition, I do play Brainstorm EOT with a Ponder in hand which functions as a reshuffling effect.

I'm not certain that's right either, it's Ponder before Brainstorm more often than not, because you need to maximize the number of cards seen when looking for LED or Chant.

Bryant Cook
08-18-2008, 02:07 AM
I played Slithermuse as a test slot over Infernal Contract in Hadley this past weekend. It was better than contract whenever I drew it. You can also use it as an Infernal Tutor Target.

Grapeshot...? Slithermuse...? What's next? Trinket Mage...?

Nemcon
08-18-2008, 03:16 AM
I played Slithermuse as a test slot over Infernal Contract in Hadley this past weekend. It was better than contract whenever I drew it. You can also use it as an Infernal Tutor Target.

Grapeshot...? Slithermuse...? What's next? Trinket Mage...?

Do you think it's better to go with Slithermuse over Diminishing Returns as a tutor target?

Bryant Cook
08-18-2008, 03:35 AM
Do you think it's better to go with Slithermuse over Diminishing Returns as a tutor target?

No. Sometimes you'll need to be gauranteed to draw 7. Slithermuse isn't better than returns, Ill-Gotten Gains isn't even used as much as Returns. I use Returns more than anything.

TeKo
08-18-2008, 05:06 AM
can you explain in which situations Sliterhmuse is better than Contract?
Or why I should tutor for it instead of Returns?

It draws you 3-4 cards? for 3U, the good point is that you have no life loss but after a Draw4 you should win anyway and lifeloss could only be a problem in the Burn MU.

I saw in a report that you lost against Burn/Sligh but a 4th Turn Kill shouldn't be normal for Burn.

FredMaster
08-18-2008, 05:14 AM
can you explain in which situations Sliterhmuse is better than Contract?
Or why I should tutor for it instead of Returns?

Slithermuse is obviously better than Contract if you face a deck with direct damage spells aka Fireblast, that could just kill you in response to something after you used contract.

Slithermuse is better than IGG when you don't have any tutor in graveyard.

TeKo
08-18-2008, 05:21 AM
Slithermuse is better than Returns when you don't have any tutor in graveyard.
IGG you mean, right?

FredMaster
08-18-2008, 10:17 AM
IGG you mean, right?
Yeah obviously.

Di
08-18-2008, 10:44 AM
can you explain in which situations Sliterhmuse is better than Contract?
Or why I should tutor for it instead of Returns?

It draws you 3-4 cards? for 3U, the good point is that you have no life loss but after a Draw4 you should win anyway and lifeloss could only be a problem in the Burn MU.

I saw in a report that you lost against Burn/Sligh but a 4th Turn Kill shouldn't be normal for Burn.

Bryant told me when he used Slithermuse, he only played it twice, but drew 6 and 7 cards off of it. That's a little better than Contract.

Also, you'd want to Infernal Slithermuse over Diminishing Returns when you're able to draw around the same number of cards (6-7) but either don't have UU available to cast Diminishing Returns, or don't want to risk losing important spells removing cards to Returns.

BreathWeapon
08-18-2008, 08:37 PM
Bryant told me when he used Slithermuse, he only played it twice, but drew 6 and 7 cards off of it. That's a little better than Contract.

Also, you'd want to Infernal Slithermuse over Diminishing Returns when you're able to draw around the same number of cards (6-7) but either don't have UU available to cast Diminishing Returns, or don't want to risk losing important spells removing cards to Returns.

UU and RFGing 10 cards aren't the main reasons, in a vacuum Slithermuse > Diminishing Returns because your opponent doesn't gain Force of Will and you don't lose the graveyard.

It's a good card, it's just a question of whether or not it's worth a slot.

yawg07
08-18-2008, 09:29 PM
Really the only answer is to play it for real in a deck and play that deck for about a month.
That's how I always tested cards in TES, and it led to some pretty solid conclusions.

cwt1220
08-19-2008, 12:49 AM
Hey Bryant, can you post the list that you ran in Hadley??

Thanks
-Chris-

Bryant Cook
08-19-2008, 01:50 AM
Everyone in the thread as gone over it, I'll do the summary.

-Opponent doesn't draw. You don't want to give them Force of Will.
-Don't lose half of your life.
-Casting Cost. Easier to cast, not BBB or UU.
-Doesn't remove Tendrils.
-Get's around Grave yard hate.
-Amazing against control, mainly Landstill. Draw 8-10? Will do.

The EPIC Storm as of 8/16/08
By Bryant Cook

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbidden Orchard

Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Orimís Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lionís Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Chrome Mox
3 Thoughtseize
1 Slithermuse
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tranquility
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:3 Vexing Shusher

It's solid. The loss to burn was me being a storm short. Oh well.

BreathWeapon
08-19-2008, 05:25 PM
Just curious, are you getting more use out of Orim's Chant or more use out of Thought Seize right now? With Counterbalance, I've been really tempted to just run discard, and your Orim's Chant and Thought Seize split looks as if its recognizing that look pieces are more problematic than counter walls.

I don't want to revive the "why Duress sucks" arguments, but havind MD outs against counterbalance just seems like the way to go ATM.

Bryant Cook
08-22-2008, 01:40 AM
Just curious, are you getting more use out of Orim's Chant or more use out of Thought Seize right now? With Counterbalance, I've been really tempted to just run discard, and your Orim's Chant and Thought Seize split looks as if its recognizing that look pieces are more problematic than counter walls.

I don't want to revive the "why Duress sucks" arguments, but havind MD outs against counterbalance just seems like the way to go ATM.

In my metagame, there's a lot of blue, Chant takes care of Stifle and Spell Snares while, thoughtsieze doesn't. This is a huge contributing factor for the 4/3 split.

Citrus-God
08-22-2008, 03:02 AM
In my metagame, there's a lot of blue, Chant takes care of Stifle and Spell Snares while, thoughtsieze doesn't. This is a huge contributing factor for the 4/3 split.

Thoughtseize also protects Chant, which is awesome. Post-board against Thresh, it can grab stuff like Gaddock Teeg.

Aj-capra
08-22-2008, 08:44 AM
Why you play Slithermuse ??

It's CC is more expensive!!!

I play Skeletal Scrying now.

In my SB I play 2 x Wispmare who they are good versus balance.

@edit : Vs black decks (ex pikula) in sb what I can play???

Compost or ancestral vision or Wheel of Fate ??

Ancestral vision is good because it's CC is lost and our-selves drawing
Whell of fate is good because to draw seven cards, but suspending with 1R
Compost...mmm

PS : I'm sorry for my english -.-""

Sanguine Voyeur
08-22-2008, 09:11 AM
Why you play Slithermuse ??

It's CC is more expensive!!!

I play Skeletal Scrying now.In order for Skeletal Scrying to be better then a draw four, you have to spend at least five mana. Slithermuse is more efficient then that.

Aj-capra
08-22-2008, 10:29 AM
Whit Skeletal I can draw in eot and I can draw more cards then Slithermuse.
To draw with skeletal is good because you remove cards that brainstorm or ponder or others cards and to play diminishing returns is better because you can draw power cards for storming.

Jaiminho
08-22-2008, 12:26 PM
I think you missed the part that shows a X in the cost of Skeletal Scrying. To draw X cards, you pay XB mana and have X cards in graveyard. Can't be good to do that at the end of the turn, unless you play some bizarre Turbo TES with 2-mana lands.

Aj-capra
08-22-2008, 12:41 PM
I think you missed the part that shows a X in the cost of Skeletal Scrying. To draw X cards, you pay XB mana and have X cards in graveyard. Can't be good to do that at the end of the turn, unless you play some bizarre Turbo TES with 2-mana lands.

ops -_-". You've reason. I haven't think to CC.

But I think who infernal contract/cruel bargain is better than sliter.

Sun_Ra
08-22-2008, 12:57 PM
Slithermuse > Infernal Contract in control matchups for sure.

There's a fair bit of Goblins and plenty of random suiblack and janky aggro here, so I'm thinking about Beseech the Queen rather than Contract.

Bryant Cook
08-22-2008, 01:06 PM
Slithermuse > Infernal Contract in control matchups for sure.

There's a fair bit of Goblins and plenty of random suiblack and janky aggro here, so I'm thinking about Beseech the Queen rather than Contract.

You need land for BTQ. That makes it terrible.

Distortion
08-23-2008, 04:09 AM
If one were inclined to play BTQ, why not use Grim Tutor instead? Triple black is just nasty, since the deck no longer runs Cabal Ritual. Anyway, I agree that it is not useful.

I am curious about whether some of the anti-control sideboard slots might not be better suited to additional copies of ETW. I have never been a huge fan of shusher, and in my experience, control players rarely counter the acceleration that leads into the ETW. My metagame is undoubtedly skewed (lots of FOW/CB with very few Stifles), so my experiences may not be quite indicative of a general trend.

jegger
08-23-2008, 04:22 AM
Come on Beseech the Queen is horrible in a deck that can skip the land drop and that don't want to close in the fourth turn.

Skeletal Scrying is again horrible. It's a nail that you can't play in the first/second turn instead of contract because you haven't enough cards into grave. Skeletal is a card for control decks, not for a Combo that want to win in the first three turns.

Slithermuse was discussed sometimes ago and the result was a failure, because the only situations where Slithermuse is better than Diminishing Returns is when it's the first turn and we can't win via IGG, but we have in hand an IT and enough mana to play Slithermuse for 7. Too much situational.

Again Slithermuse give its best when there is a great difference between cards in our and opponent's hand. So we are induced to play all spells in hand with the objective to draw more cards but with an opponent's counter we scoop. In the midgame often my opponents haven't 7 cards in hand, but 2-3. So Slithermuse is a cantrip for 4 mana. Is it really better than Contract?

Again Slithermuse goes under stifle.

But now that Wastedlife plays this card, the card is good for many people.
Think with your head.:wink:

Nemcon
08-23-2008, 09:58 AM
Seeing slithermuse, I seem to like it a bit more than contract, it sort of allows us to get a new hand for just a few mana, without worrying about opponents drawing something new. I think it is better with Bryant's Thoughtseizes in the main, especially against blue decks, where we can pick out a counter from their hand and not worry about what they draw through diminishing returns. Also allows us to LED in response to Slithermuse, something that you don't really get to do with Contract.

Kanti
08-23-2008, 03:32 PM
@ Bryant:

For the latest list you posted, can you give a thorough guide to boarding, please? ; D

Bryant Cook
08-23-2008, 03:45 PM
-2 Simian Spirit Guide, -1 Mox, -2/-3 Ponder, -0/-1 Slithermuse/Empty the Warrens.

Kuma
08-23-2008, 05:01 PM
This is probably a dumb question, but why run Grapeshot at all? It seems like an inefficient use of your storm and kills next to nothing on its own.

Di
08-23-2008, 05:15 PM
This is probably a dumb question, but why run Grapeshot at all? It seems like an inefficient use of your storm and kills next to nothing on its own.

It replaced Pyroclasm as the sideboard removal slot. Pyroclasm very rarely was used to wipe the board, and was used more as a direct removal spell for Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage. Grapeshot is an option that can deal with both of them, but also have the potential to act as a win condition, as well as be uncounterable outside of Stifle. In that light, it's much better than Pyroclasm. The fact it can go to the dome for the last few points of damage in a pinch outweighs the possible wiping of Goblin or Ichorid's board, which is a poor point against it as you can basically goldfish both decks already.

Kanti
08-23-2008, 09:32 PM
I meant what out in what games and such. Im new to this deck in Legacy, and don't know the format that well to begin with to say that, lets say, leaving SSG in against Thresh is better than leaving a Ponder, or both, or whatever.

Aj-capra
08-25-2008, 01:33 PM
Grapeshot >>> pyroclasm.

On Italy all players thinking who led will be banned....

GreenOne
08-25-2008, 03:11 PM
Grapeshot >>> pyroclasm.

On Italy all players thinking who led will be banned....

Not really. Italy is one of the places where combo is underplayed, so I guess LED is not that much a concern (maybe in Ichorid?).

WhoKnowsWhy
08-25-2008, 05:48 PM
Not really. Italy is one of the places where combo is underplayed, so I guess LED is not that much a concern (maybe in Ichorid?).

LED won't be banned until they do something about Counterbalance I believe, but realistically what can be done? By allowing so much Blue in the format, they limit the amount of combo, but by limiting Blue, then they open the door for Combo. Combo is able to roll over the decks lacking permission, so why not think of the structure of these builds as balanced. Besides, combo is as good as you want it to be. If you are worried about counter spells, then you can run limitation cards like Xanthid, Chant, or City of Solitude, and go off behind them. Combo will not get its respect until Force runs out of friends, and for now Force has the most friends in the format, thank you Tarmogoyf.

undone
08-26-2008, 11:54 AM
Tarmogoyf.

Costs 1U

Force of will just hasnt got the message. Yet.

But seriously @WhoKnowsWhy your right theres no reason for any current combo peices to be unbanned. With the current blue metagame I would even say unban a thing or 2 (nothing degenerate just some quality stuff maby frantic search?)

Shriekmaw
08-26-2008, 12:26 PM
Costs 1U

Force of will just hasnt got the message. Yet.

But seriously @WhoKnowsWhy your right theres no reason for any current combo peices to be unbanned. With the current blue metagame I would even say unban a thing or 2 (nothing degenerate just some quality stuff maby frantic search?)


I don't think any combo pieces should be ban as the blue decks are very good at countering the combo decks.

If there is one card that deserves to get banned then I would have to vote for Sensei's Divinning Top. That card is absolutely broken in the format.

Bryant Cook
08-26-2008, 01:56 PM
If you guys would like to talk about bannings, I'd recommend a different thread, not in the Deck Discussion forum.

Anyways, Kanti, I do that sideboard plan for every match-up involving blue. Other match-ups I take out chant and board in sprees.

Benie Bederios
08-30-2008, 09:09 AM
Hi,

I'm going to play this deck in my next tournament, and have posibily a noob question.

First of there is bound to be more blackbased decks( Pox/Evagreen like) then Counterbalance decks. So I won't play Seize MD. For the SB I'm thinking of putting Dark Confidant back in to fight discard. The question is do you swap Shusher or Pyroblast for Confidant.

I'm thinking of taking out Shusher.. I haven't been impressed by it. It's only good against Counterbalance( Chalice is too easy to play around, using Shusher to play around Daze isn't really helpfull and normally my opponent has 1 counter so Pyroblast takes out the counter just as good).

Well I like to hear from you

Bryant Cook
08-31-2008, 07:33 PM
Hi,

I'm going to play this deck in my next tournament, and have posibily a noob question.

First of there is bound to be more blackbased decks( Pox/Evagreen like) then Counterbalance decks. So I won't play Seize MD. For the SB I'm thinking of putting Dark Confidant back in to fight discard. The question is do you swap Shusher or Pyroblast for Confidant.

I'm thinking of taking out Shusher.. I haven't been impressed by it. It's only good against Counterbalance( Chalice is too easy to play around, using Shusher to play around Daze isn't really helpfull and normally my opponent has 1 counter so Pyroblast takes out the counter just as good).

Well I like to hear from you


If there will be more suicide, then Thoughtsieze is better than chant. Same goes for Shusher vs. Confidant.

Vardasereg
09-02-2008, 05:03 AM
Hello,

I'm playing TES a long time and now I asked myself are there more reasons to play Thoughtseize over Duress then M. Mage and G. Teeg?

If yes let me know, because the price of a playset scares me a lot and I have 4 Duress from my old Vintage Suicide.

Greetz, Vardasereg

THEchubbymuffin
09-02-2008, 05:43 AM
Well another thing that thoughtseize sometimes takes away from an opponent is their clock. If Thoughtseize takes away an opposing goyf, and he plays a worse creature. You just got an extra turn to combo. That's what i think.

Aj-capra
09-02-2008, 06:44 AM
Hello,

I'm playing TES a long time and now I asked myself are there more reasons to play Thoughtseize over Duress then M. Mage and G. Teeg?

If yes let me know, because the price of a playset scares me a lot and I have 4 Duress from my old Vintage Suicide.

Greetz, Vardasereg

Seize >>> duress

The price of a playset isn't expensive now!!

Seize for mage,dreadnought,tarmo,gaddok,lakkŤ and more critters!!!:wink:

fearphage
09-02-2008, 11:48 AM
Why tranquility over cleanfall? You never have a reason to produce green in this deck outside of one card. Just curious. I understand getting green is not an issue but just curious if there was a driving reason behind it.

J.V.
09-02-2008, 11:52 AM
Why tranquility over cleanfall? You never have a reason to produce green in this deck outside of one card. Just curious. I understand getting green is not an issue but just curious if there was a driving reason behind it.

I'll go with your never going to stick it under a mox if you wish for it so it's really irrelevent what color it would make it produce AND (more importantly for that matter) Bryant has a Japanese Foil Tranquility) also if it were ever under a mox you could use it to activate/play Shusher so it kind of balances out playing Orim's Chant with Cleanfall under a mox.

Aj-capra
09-02-2008, 12:57 PM
I'll go with your never going to stick it under a mox if you wish for it so it's really irrelevent what color it would make it produce AND (more importantly for that matter) Bryant has a Japanese Foil Tranquility) also if it were ever under a mox you could use it to activate/play Shusher so it kind of balances out playing Orim's Chant with Cleanfall under a mox.

Bryant have a tranquillity foil japanes and I've a cleanfall foil japanese.

Very important reason :P

Sometimes I've two orim in hand and imprint one and I'm playing easy my cleanfall!!!

J.V.
09-02-2008, 01:31 PM
Bryant have a tranquillity foil japanes and I've a cleanfall foil japanese.

Very important reason :P

Sometimes I've two orim in hand and imprint one and I'm playing easy my cleanfall!!!

that is true, but lotus petal, and your lands all produce 5c so it doesn't usually matter.

Aj-capra
09-02-2008, 03:07 PM
that is true, but lotus petal, and your lands all produce 5c so it doesn't usually matter.

Yes, but I must to fight with my luck :P

I must to test simplify,too. It's CC is good!!!

troopatroop
09-02-2008, 03:26 PM
that is true, but lotus petal, and your lands all produce 5c so it doesn't usually matter.

Correct, it doesn't usually, but it could. As long as there is a chance, I'll go with Cleanfall.

Benie Bederios
09-03-2008, 04:27 AM
lo,


that is true, but lotus petal, and your lands all produce 5c so it doesn't usually matter.

It does matter against Blood Moon. Cleanfall can be cast with eight cards and Tranquility with four. It's a small point, but still.


If there will be more suicide, then Thoughtsieze is better than chant. Same goes for Shusher vs. Confidant.

Probably about Chant and Seize, but the difference would be small. Chanting an opponent on there upkeep to Time Walk is not much worst than Seizing his strongest card. Chant helps also against Extirpate, when you want to use the IGGy kill.

What do you mean excactly with Shusher or Confidant: Shusher is better anyhow, so you don't need to play Confidant or not? I tested yesterday against Thresh( Ugbw) where he with CB MD and could go quite even against him with no Seize MD and boarding in 3 Pyroblasts and 2 Dark Confidants. He didn't have EE though and wasn't a briliant player.

On another note, I also tested Slithermuse and Thoughtseize and didn't like it much. It slows your deck down so that your opponent has less cards in his hand. If you use Thoughtseize his hand goes down even more. If an opponent plays a Goyf and 2 landdrops on the play and you combo your turn 2 with Thoughtseize Slithermuse is already became a expensive draw 4. It might be good for FT( although that deck is even slower, so a higher change your opponent got an even smaller hand, but it doesn't remove 10 cards from the game) but here I like Diminishing Returns better.

BB

BreathWeapon
09-03-2008, 04:57 PM
He means Vexing Shusher is worthless against discard based decks and Dark Confidant is worthwhile against discard based decks because he off sets their disruption.

4eak
09-16-2008, 11:33 AM
Shards of Alara card:

Ad Nauseum -- 3BB -- Instant

Reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost. You may repeat this process any number of times.


Ad Nauseum...*sigh*...that is a lovely card. Forget Bargain (which isn't even legal), draw on opponent's EoT at instant speed and win when you untap with 15 cards in hand!






peace,
4eak

Dark_Cynic87
09-16-2008, 02:21 PM
What do you mean Bargain isn't legal? If you mean Cruel Bargain, you are sadly mistaken...

And FT would NEVER even CONSIDER Slithermuse. We are slower. We also run 8x pieces of disruption MD with absolutely no reliance on blind draw-4s or draw-7s, and have no reason to fear graveyard hate, and never have to wish for a win-con. But hey, I suppose if you favor speed over consistancy and reliability...

And 3BB seems sucky (just so this isn't considered flaming).

Pce,

--DC

m03
09-16-2008, 02:24 PM
What do you mean Bargain isn't legal? If you mean Cruel Bargain, you are sadly mistaken...

He means Yawgmoth's Bargain.

dlevsApiJ
09-16-2008, 02:24 PM
What do you mean Bargain isn't legal? If you mean Cruel Bargain, you are sadly mistaken...

Yawgmoth’s Bargain :wink:

EDIT: woops, to slow..

Bryant Cook
09-16-2008, 06:10 PM
Shards of Alara card:

Ad Nauseum -- 3BB -- Instant

Reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost. You may repeat this process any number of times.


Ad Nauseum...*sigh*...that is a lovely card. Forget Bargain (which isn't even legal), draw on opponent's EoT at instant speed and win when you untap with 15 cards in hand!

peace,
4eak
I'll be adding this card to TES. Right now it'll be replacing Slithermuse. I'm unsure on how many I'd like to play.

thefreakaccident
09-16-2008, 10:41 PM
I'll be adding this card to TES. Right now it'll be replacing Slithermuse. I'm unsure on how many I'd like to play.

Try four, maybe five if you can get away with it.

undone
09-16-2008, 10:53 PM
This card is so good you should run 8, 4 being crappy -1 CA instants.

I wanted to see your reaction to this card I am in the process of goldfishing it right now.

Mayk0l
09-16-2008, 10:59 PM
4eak:
Ad Nauseum...*sigh*...that is a lovely card. Forget Bargain (which isn't even legal), draw on opponent's EoT at instant speed and win when you untap with 15 cards in hand!


Getting to five mana would probably force you to use Dark Ritual or SSG to cast it EOT. So you might as well cast it in your own and use the Storm. It probably won't matter much, but it would require you to draw less cards for equal storm and thus save on on the lifeloss a bit.

4eak
09-16-2008, 11:04 PM
Getting to five mana would probably force you to use Dark Ritual or SSG to cast it EOT. So you might as well cast it in your own and use the Storm. It probably won't matter much, but it would require you to draw less cards for equal storm and thus save on on the lifeloss a bit.

Aye. In practice, you might as well just go for the throat and play it during your mainphase. There are a few times when EoT matters, but as you said, ramping to cast the spell in the first place puts you in a good position to try and win right there.



peace,
4eak

Dark_Cynic87
09-16-2008, 11:12 PM
After taking a moment from being my usual self and hating every new card ever printed, I reread the card. My bad. It's only one of the sickest cards ever printed. I'd get 4x, but it'll probably be banned...Still, just as good cards skyrocket in price these days, I suppose I'll be picking up 4x @ the prerelease. Even for 20 a pop, it may be worth it...Are they preselling on Ebay yet? If so, any extremely high prices yet?

Pce,

--DC

(Btw 4eak: I like your sign-off :wink: )

jegger
09-17-2008, 06:04 AM
This is the list I'm testing. I dismantle FT to build TES with the new card. TES is more adapt to this card.

TES 2.0 - an improvement-
by jegger

4x polluted delta
1x bloodsained mire
1x underground sea
1x volcanic island
1x badlands
1x island
1x swamp
4x LED
4x dark ritual
4x lotus petal
4x chrome mox
4x rite of flame
3x cabal ritual
2x SSG

4x brainstorm
3x ponder
4x infernal tutor
3x burning wish
4x duress
2x thoughtseize
4x ad nauseum
1x ToA

Sideboard
1x diminishing returns
1x IGG
1x ToA
1x EtW
1x thoughtseize
1x shattering spree
1x pyroclasm
1x hull breach
4x vexing shusher
3x hurkyl's recall

The list needs many work, but from my testing it's very good.

I need only 5 mana + ad nauseum FTW usually. If my opponent plays Extirpate,mage,... I have plan B, C, D with burning wish for EtW or IGG or diminishing. I cut all higher CC cost cards so except a ToA and 4x ad nauseum, the entire deck CC is max 2 (except 2 SSG) so usually I can repeat the process with ad nauseum a minimum of 6 times, but often 12-15 times.

For the low CC, I try in SB 3 hurkyl instead of classic Shatering Spree against Trini & Chalice. I use only 1 Spree like a solution in g1.

Only 3 color for a more stable manabase with fetch for a more optimized brainstorm. I don't see a real need of orim. Yes orim goes around Stifle and Snare,...but if I succeed to play ad nauseum I can protect the ToA with discard effect or to play double ToA.

I have some problems against burns and goyf sligh if I haven't a fast win, but many others machup are a bye, thanks also to the possibility to do the first ad nauseum in opponent's EOT, and then another in my turn.

I presume this card has a short life.

Bryant Cook
09-17-2008, 09:38 AM
I don't like that list at all. Honestly, that deserves it's own thread.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking....

The Decklist
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbidden Orchard

Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Orimís Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lionís Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Chrome Mox
3 Ad Nauseum
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cleanfall
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:3 Vexing Shusher

BreathWeapon
09-17-2008, 10:51 AM
I don't see a point to Ill Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns, Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseum is better than Infernal Tutor -> Ill Gotten Gains since it circumvents FoW recursion and while Diminishing Returns costs less it draws you into fewer cards and draws them into disruption.

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Ad Nauseum
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 (Disruption)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmer Void

If they Meddling Mage Ad Nauseum, you can't just tutor for Empty the Warrens or wish for Diminishing Returns.

IGG and Returns got side lined, IMO.

thefreakaccident
09-17-2008, 11:48 AM
I think that the card should just fit itself into the place of diminishing returns in the MD, and simply do what Bryant has already done, shave some numbers to fit it in...


I do not think that cuttning the loop is the right way to go, as it is a very good storm engine.


Do you guys think this card is too good?


I think it may make combo decks better, but I do not think that many MUs will change dramatically.

rsaunder
09-17-2008, 12:01 PM
Breathweapon, the 4 disruption in your list should, without a doubt, be 4 orim's chant.

It strikes me that Ad Nauseum is very much an analog to DDay in new FT. Basically a bomb that fairly well makes obsilete the previous kill engines. There's no way this card will be banned, it costs fucking 5 mana. A deck has to be essentially built around it to use it effectively, and it just so happens that TES already kinda was.

As far as making matchups better, it'll probably do the same thing as doomsday: decrease your reliance on the graveyard. It still sucks going up against FOW but instead of losing to leyline (yes, i know you have outs, but they're slow) you fear direct damage and have to go off faster before goyf can smash your face a couple times (especially against red thresh, if they have bolt backup.) Yes, I know you should chant before going off and yes I know you should play around bolt, but I'm just saying it opens you up to these problems. Weather or not it will be a big deal remains uncertain.

Bryant Cook
09-17-2008, 12:05 PM
I'm unsure if cutting Returns and IGG right off the bat is correct. I want outs without paying my life. If anything I'd cut ETW to add the 4th. You should be able to find a Tendrils/Grapeshot win without much of a challange now.

thefreakaccident
09-17-2008, 12:13 PM
I'm unsure if cutting Returns and IGG right off the bat is correct. I want outs without paying my life. If anything I'd cut ETW to add the 4th. You should be able to find a Tendrils/Grapeshot win without much of a challange now.

I just say cut returns, as you could wish for it, and nauseum fulfills a very similar roll...


Also, it is black, which generally makes it easier to cast...


Igg should stay in until extensive testing says otherwise (although, I would never take the loop out, simply out of preference).

Bryant Cook
09-17-2008, 12:16 PM
I just say cut returns, as you could wish for it, and nauseum fulfills a very similar roll...


Also, it is black, which generally makes it easier to cast...


Igg should stay in until extensive testing says otherwise (although, I would never take the loop out, simply out of preference).

I'm currently at school, nowhere near cards, which is why I refuse to cut Returns for the time being. I'd like to have legit testing before cutting a core card of the deck. Although, I can see it happening. If I cut Returns, I'm going to cut ETW too. Leaving one open slot. I'd like to fit 2x Thoughtsieze back in the MD.

Happy Gilmore
09-17-2008, 12:24 PM
I would have to agree with much of what has been said, Chant may not be necessary now since you wont be giving them key counterspells back with Iggy. I would most likely cut them from the main, only using them for a wish SB. Either that or run a 3-1 combination with one of the other kill spells. With white no longer being necessary you could very simply run a fetchland manabase. Brainstorm and Ponder get better. And I would more than likely run all 8 1cc discard spells. Basically your looking at a Fetchland tendrils deck plus more red rituals.

J.V.
09-17-2008, 01:43 PM
Here is the list I've been testing, its been really good for me but the results may be a little scewed since they have all be MWS games... :rolleyes:
// Lands
4 [6E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseum

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot

TeKo
09-17-2008, 01:51 PM
I think Ill play something like this:

// Lands
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
2/3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [US] Duress/Seize
3/4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
3 [UNH] "Ach! Hans, Run!" / Ad N

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall

Maybe +1 IGG Main, because you need no additional Tutor.

Aj-capra
09-17-2008, 02:09 PM
Cabal ritual is necessary because the spell is very very hard to cast.
I'm thinking who mystical tutor is very very good versus Ad n because he permits to try it in keep phase and draw it.

In italian forum a possible list is this:

/ Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [5E] City of Brass
2 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge (or 1 x paradise + 1 x forbidden)

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [LRW] Ponder (4 is more for me)
3 Ab Nauseam
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [TSP] Wheel of Fate (in italian metagame is necessary + or -)
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [US] Duress

I'm testing with:

-1 inferna tutor
-1 ponder

+ 2 seize/duress

or:

- 1 ab n
- 1 ponder

+ 2 seize/duress

BreathWeapon
09-17-2008, 02:23 PM
Breathweapon, the 4 disruption in your list should, without a doubt, be 4 orim's chant.

It strikes me that Ad Nauseum is very much an analog to DDay in new FT. Basically a bomb that fairly well makes obsilete the previous kill engines. There's no way this card will be banned, it costs fucking 5 mana. A deck has to be essentially built around it to use it effectively, and it just so happens that TES already kinda was.

As far as making matchups better, it'll probably do the same thing as doomsday: decrease your reliance on the graveyard. It still sucks going up against FOW but instead of losing to leyline (yes, i know you have outs, but they're slow) you fear direct damage and have to go off faster before goyf can smash your face a couple times (especially against red thresh, if they have bolt backup.) Yes, I know you should chant before going off and yes I know you should play around bolt, but I'm just saying it opens you up to these problems. Weather or not it will be a big deal remains uncertain.

Orim's Chant vs Duress isn't that simple, with out Ill Gotten Gains, I'm more inclined to use Duress because it hits Counterbalance. Even tho' Orim's Chant and Vexing Shusher are the default package, Duress and Red Elemental Blast could be a lot better considering both of them deal with Counterbalance pre-emptively. Now your protecting a single card instead of multiple cards from counters, so Orim's Chant and Vexing Shusher aren't really that necessary.

Ad Nauseum does a lot for TES, because now TES doesn't have to worry about permission in the graveyard or drawing the opponent into permission, which means we get to run a disruption package that deals with Counterbalance pre-emptively and still deals with their counter wall effectively.

When you stop and think about the dynamics, I think you'll see the paradigm is shifting towards Duress and Red Elemental blast, because we're more resilient to Stifle and no longer vulnerable to discarded Force of Wills etc. I really suggest you at least consider it, Ad Nauseum really changes how you have to look at combo in this format IMO.

jegger
09-18-2008, 02:19 AM
I would have to agree with much of what has been said, Chant may not be necessary now since you wont be giving them key counterspells back with Iggy. I would most likely cut them from the main, only using them for a wish SB. Either that or run a 3-1 combination with one of the other kill spells. With white no longer being necessary you could very simply run a fetchland manabase. Brainstorm and Ponder get better. And I would more than likely run all 8 1cc discard spells. Basically your looking at a Fetchland tendrils deck plus more red rituals.

It's exactly what I'm saying.

And then, why do I need IGG or Diminishing Returns when I can play a stronger spell? If I reveal Diminishing or IGG or EtW I take also 4 dmg. Anyway I can put them in SB.

I don't think that simply we can substitute Slithermuse with Ad Nauseum.
It's a too small step.

We need a more trasformation like in the deck I have written, that is very similar to the deck Breathweapon has written (why a pentacolor manabase? not fear of moon effect and wasteland? you don't want a better optimization of Brainstorm and Ponder?).

I'm also trying a version more similar to FT with Mystical Tutor.

Anyway this card is a great boost for TES.

Windux
09-18-2008, 10:20 AM
Why does nobody mention, that if you run 4 Ad Nasaeums your chances of losing much life is high?

3x 5cc (you can't count the 1 Ad that you are casting)
4x 4cc (1 Tendrils, 1 Empty, 1 IGG, 1 Returns)

Ok, the CC of the deck is low, but just imaginage that you use City of Brass and Thoughtseize which can cost you 4-5 Life AND your opponent will do some damage as well.

If you can't play it Turn 2-3 then you "normally" can't lose more life than ~10.
If you need to wait longer, the life you can lose will sink dramaticly.

I'm not good at math, so I don't put on percentage of Damage you lose :)


EDIT: Random thought: Summoners Pact. Spellcount +1, searches Simian Spirit Guide. But you die if you can't win that round.

BreathWeapon
09-18-2008, 10:53 AM
It's exactly what I'm saying.

And then, why do I need IGG or Diminishing Returns when I can play a stronger spell? If I reveal Diminishing or IGG or EtW I take also 4 dmg. Anyway I can put them in SB.

I don't think that simply we can substitute Slithermuse with Ad Nauseum.
It's a too small step.

We need a more trasformation like in the deck I have written, that is very similar to the deck Breathweapon has written (why a pentacolor manabase? not fear of moon effect and wasteland? you don't want a better optimization of Brainstorm and Ponder?).

I'm also trying a version more similar to FT with Mystical Tutor.

Anyway this card is a great boost for TES.

The 1st step was seeing whether or not Ad Nauseum made existing decks better, the 2nd step is disregarding existing decks and building around Ad Nauseum.

The list I posted was for the 1st step, but for the 2nd step I'm experimenting with cutting Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens, cutting Orim's Chant for Duress, cutting Rite of Flame for Cabal Ritual, cutting the 5c mana base for a 3c Fetchland mana base etc. at which point it's no longer TES.

b4r0n
09-18-2008, 11:45 AM
The 1st step was seeing whether or not Ad Nauseum made existing decks better, the 2nd step is disregarding existing decks and building around Ad Nauseum.

That's actually a really logical way of approaching the card. I'm not sure whether it's a perfect fit for TES or FT, but it's definitely strong enough to start another powerful combo deck. Regardless, it's worth exploring all the possibilities.


EDIT: Random thought: Summoners Pact. Spellcount +1, searches Simian Spirit Guide. But you die if you can't win that round.

That doesn't work. Only green creatures. :frown:

J.V.
09-18-2008, 11:54 AM
Why does nobody mention, that if you run 4 Ad Nasaeums your chances of losing much life is high?

I think my list does a good job of addressing this issue as you can see I run I cut Diminishing Returns and Empty from the maindeck to lower the curve I also cut thoughtseize to get rid of the life loss and I lowered the Simian Spirit Guide Count to further lower the Adverage C.C. of the deck while increasing Chrome Mox for example. I also on run 3 Ad Nauseams since the deck runs Tutors and Cantrips. My A.C.C. is 1.22 [And its actually lower since I would be casting and Ad Nauseam and anything else I played before it.] so I rarely end of killing myself.
// Lands
4 [6E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseum

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot

Here is a sample hand from my list:
1 City of Brass, 1 Lotus Petal, 2 Dark ritual, 1 Ponder, 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Infernal tutor
if you were to just go strait for Nauseam on the play your adverage C.C. of your library goes down to 1.11 generally the life loss isn't an issuen at all, you just have to know when to top drawing.

Hanni
09-19-2008, 05:40 AM
While I agree that trying to fit Ad Nauseam into the current TES build without additional modifications isn't the greatest idea, I still think the card is a better engine card for the deck. It basically reads "3BB: Win." Reworking the deck to fit it in is definitely worth it, IMO, even if it shifts the deck somewhat away from the way TES is currently designed.

Aj-capra
09-19-2008, 07:26 AM
This is my list now:

// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseum

// Spells
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
3 [US] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [...] Sudden Shock
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth

I play black pact MD because new critter is a problem and in SB sudden shock is very very good versus it.
I think who mystical tutor is necessary because we can tutor more cards than wish or infernal.
This list must be improve!!!

BreathWeapon
09-19-2008, 10:17 AM
I haven't been impressed, ramping up to 5 non-LED mana before turn 3 is unreliable even in TES, but it's a definite replacement for Ill Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns and that lets discard effects replace Abeyance/Orim's Chant effects.

I think U/b/r with Mystical Tutor is the way to go

Bryant Cook
09-19-2008, 12:18 PM
I haven't been impressed, ramping up to 5 non-LED mana before turn 3 is unreliable even in TES, but it's a definite replacement for Ill Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns and that lets discard effects replace Abeyance/Orim's Chant effects.

I think U/b/r with Mystical Tutor is the way to go

Like I said before, it'll be awhile until I have time to test. I'm not going to dismiss my pet deck anytime soon off of someone elses word. However, I see a few problems with cutting both engines, we now lose to Meddling Mage. I think keeping one of them is a must. Probably Ill-Gotten Gains.

Also, Orim's Chant will always be better than discard in combo. Hands down. I don't really see the need for cutting down to three colors. While it works nicely with Brainstorm, I don't see a reason to lose other tools for a shuffle.

Adan
09-19-2008, 12:24 PM
EDIT: Random thought: Summoners Pact. Spellcount +1, searches Simian Spirit Guide. But you die if you can't win that round.

Pact only fetches green creatures...

Hanni
09-19-2008, 12:35 PM
I don't really see the need for cutting down to three colors. While it works nicely with Brainstorm, I don't see a reason to lose other tools for a shuffle.

Blue isn't just for Brainstorm, it's also for Mystical Tutor, though I suppose you could drop Brainstorm to run the rainbow lands. I think Brainstorm + fetchlands is the better option.

I'm not as sold on Orim's Chant without IGG as you are, though.

Bryant Cook
09-19-2008, 12:42 PM
Blue isn't just for Brainstorm, it's also for Mystical Tutor, though I suppose you could drop Brainstorm to run the rainbow lands. I think Brainstorm + fetchlands is the better option.

I'm not as sold on Orim's Chant without IGG as you are, though.

Mystical Tutor is terrible. I can't emphasize it enough. I've been saying it for years. I've been running Brainstorm all along, where have you been? Fetchlands aren't worth making Vexing Shusher weak and losing Orim's Chant. Not to mention losing valuable wish targets.

Also, I'll still be running Ill-Gotten Gains. You need another engine, without a second engine any combo deck becomes weaker. I've played combo once or twice and know these things.

Hanni
09-19-2008, 12:47 PM
Mystical Tutor is bad in your current TES version because of the way TES is built around Burning Wish. Mystical Tutor itself is a very strong card and happens to be better than Burning Wish if you plan to use Ad Nauseam as the engine card replacing IGG. Considering how retarded Ad Nauseam is, I would say it is better to build around it than just plug it in a deck not designed to abuse it.

However, that makes the deck no longer TES so I will stop discussing AdN in this deck. While it may improve the deck some to run 1 AdN, I think focusing around AdN is better. I'll make further commentary in the ANT thread in N&D.

Sorry for sidetracking the TES discussion. Carry on.

Aj-capra
09-19-2008, 01:00 PM
I'm thinking who play only duress involve don't play ill-gotten gains or Diminishing Returns.

I'm working for a UB list!!!

a possible list:

// Lands
4 [B] Underground Sea
8 [SHM] Swamp (2)
2 [RAV] Island (2)

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Ad N.

// Spells
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [US] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [MOR] Negate

BreathWeapon
09-19-2008, 01:23 PM
Like I said before, it'll be awhile until I have time to test. I'm not going to dismiss my pet deck anytime soon off of someone elses word. However, I see a few problems with cutting both engines, we now lose to Meddling Mage. I think keeping one of them is a must. Probably Ill-Gotten Gains.

Also, Orim's Chant will always be better than discard in combo. Hands down. I don't really see the need for cutting down to three colors. While it works nicely with Brainstorm, I don't see a reason to lose other tools for a shuffle.

I don't seem to have a problem with choosing between Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens with Infernal Tutor and Ill Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens with Burning Wish, but there's no harm in running another target for Infernal Tutor. I'd lean more towards MDing a Diminishing Returns because it's not as much of a brick, and then SBing in Ill Gotten Gains for the "fire and forget" against aggro strategies.

I don't think TES, FT or SI are going any where, Ad Nauseam is just offering another 1x engine card to established archetypes. To make a 4x Ad Nauseam deck, I think you have to use Mystical Tutor just to be able to find the Dark Rituals, which totally scraps the idea here.

I don't think Orim's Chant is hands down better than discard when Orim's Chant is no longer required to compensate for the draw backs of our Storm Engines. It comes straight down to whether or not you want to stop double Counterspell/Spellsnare or discard Counterbalance, Stifle isn't much of a concern now that Ad Nauseam just powers thru' it.

GoldenCid
09-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Random questions:

What is the difference between iggy pop and TES?
Is TES better than fetchlands tendrils? Why??

thefreakaccident
09-27-2008, 11:39 PM
Random questions:

What is the difference between iggy pop and TES?
Is TES better than fetchlands tendrils? Why??



TES is quicker than both iggy-pop and FT...

FT is the natural evolution of iggy-pop.

The difference is speed vs resilience and consistency.

TES is at least a turn quicker in goldfishing compared to FT, but FT can deal with hate a little better.

That is the difference there.

chokin
09-28-2008, 02:02 AM
TES is quicker than both iggy-pop and FT...

FT is the natural evolution of iggy-pop.

The difference is speed vs resilience and consistency.

TES is at least a turn quicker in goldfishing compared to FT, but FT can deal with hate a little better.

That is the difference there.

I've been saying that for so long about combo decks, period (mostly storm though). Like SI and Belcher are quick, but I feel they too inconsistent for me to play. TES has speed and a bit of resilience. FT is slightly slower than TES, but what I feel to be a little more consistent. And then there is stuff like Solidarity, which takes a little while to set up, but when it does, you usually win.

I'm waiting for someone to make AN work really well and give the deck enough resilience to give it a fighting chance. I like Bryant's and JV's list a lot, but I kinda glanced at it.

When do you think you should stop flipping from AN? When you have enough junk to win? Or do you flip more? I understand that without Orim's Chant, you wouldn't go too low against burn, but what about plain aggro? Control?

I think an interesting matchup would be a 3x Twincast Solidarity against this. You pretty much need to use it on their turn or have Chant.

GreenOne
09-28-2008, 07:28 AM
FT also implies a lot of reasoning on every play you make. TES is simpler to play. (that is not a downside at all). From the question you asked, I see you're not that familiar with the format and with those decks.
Also, FT builds are quite different from meta to meat, where TES has a solid decklist with a couple customizable slots.

If you have a deck to chose between both, start with TES, and after you can pilot it well, try to pick FT up and see with witch one you're more confortable.
TES is definetly a better place to start with.

chokin
09-28-2008, 01:54 PM
FT also implies a lot of reasoning on every play you make. TES is simpler to play. (that is not a downside at all). From the question you asked, I see you're not that familiar with the format and with those decks.
Also, FT builds are quite different from meta to meat, where TES has a solid decklist with a couple customizable slots.

If you have a deck to chose between both, start with TES, and after you can pilot it well, try to pick FT up and see with witch one you're more confortable.
TES is definetly a better place to start with.

I just haven't played TES or FT in a long ass time. I think the last time I did either was about 9 months ago. I used to play Iggy Pop, which gave me an idea of how to play FT(still very different). And it took me 3 months to play TES well.

It's just AN is really tempting to flip into your own doom. I usually stopped when I saw (in TES) LED LED BW/IT or a lot of mana and a kill. Basically it was used as a way to get cards in my hand that'd make me win. Amidoinitrite?

Davetradint
10-01-2008, 10:40 AM
Hi,
I'm thinking about giving a try to this deck. Should I begin with a given list or test Ad Nauseam as many of you are doing?
Do you expect many changes in the archtype and/or deck? Apart from AN, is Shards providing more bombs?

Bryant Cook
10-01-2008, 12:52 PM
I've gotten around to doing some online testing. I've played about 40-60 games so far. Ad Nauseum is very hyped up right now, yes, it's a bomb. Usually wins you games, but don't be mislead by it.

For reference here's the list I'm using:

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbidden Orchard

Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ad Nauseum
3 Ponder
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cleanfall
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:3 Vexing Shusher

The average mana cost of the deck is 1.53 keep this in mind, it's slightly more than a bargain life loss. However, just as powerful. Yesterday in one game I drew 24 cards. A few games later...I drew 4. I won both games, but you need to keep in mind the card doesn't read I win the game. You have to work for it.

Dave - Try Ad Nauseum lists, much easier to pilot, a lot less thinking.

rsaunder
10-01-2008, 02:27 PM
So, Bryant, you've been playing 4 AdN? Is it really something you want to see that much of?

It strikes me that Mystical tutor might fit into these lists pretty well, in the place of 3 AdN, have you given that a try? I know it's not as necessary as in FT lists, but it'll power up brainstorm a little bit, fetch chant, and let you cut a few higher CC cards so you don't need to run as many.

Zinch
10-01-2008, 04:15 PM
And also the mystical tutors let you fetch for an AdN, sac a LED during the upkeep and play the AdN during your draw phase... Wich is a great trick

J.V.
10-01-2008, 04:17 PM
And also the mystical tutors let you fetch for an AdN, sac a LED during the upkeep and play the AdN during your draw phase... Wich is a great trick

One little issue with this, Mystical Tutor is awful. The only reason that decks like FT can even play it are that the card disadvantage doesn't effect them as much since they run 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder and 4 Sensei's divining top. Which also allows them to abuse it a lot more.

Also Bryant, I still think 3 AdN and 4 Chrome Mox's are the right numbers, that alone brings the decks A.C.C. down from 1.25 (your math was a little off) to 1.17 and like I said you WANT to hit chrome Mox's off of AdN since its pretty common to have 0 mana in pool after an AdN.

rsaunder
10-01-2008, 04:36 PM
And also the mystical tutors let you fetch for an AdN, sac a LED during the upkeep and play the AdN during your draw phase... Wich is a great trick

Unless I'm mistaken, you take manaburn after your upkeep is over.

@MT: I realize that it's card disadvantage (so are chrome mox and SSG and really dark rit and lotus petal, but that's beside the point), but why is it awful? I realize that FT can abuse it better because of the more complete cantrip suite, but that's not to sat TES can't. In place of 3 ADN, or whatever, it could just snag key spells. So other than card disadvantage, why is it bad?

klaus
10-01-2008, 04:49 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, you take manaburn after your upkeep is over.

You don't.
The mana pool empties after every phase not after every step.

J.V.
10-01-2008, 04:51 PM
Yeah Klaus is right you have the mana until the end of the draw step so you can draw for turn and then play AdN.

rsaunder
10-01-2008, 04:56 PM
You don't.
The mana pool empties after every phase not after every step.Huh, I really thought you took burn at the end of every step too. Oh well, shows how much I know. (also opens up lots of broken plays.)

Well, even more reason for MT then.

Bryant Cook
10-01-2008, 07:50 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, you take manaburn after your upkeep is over.

@MT: I realize that it's card disadvantage (so are chrome mox and SSG and really dark rit and lotus petal, but that's beside the point), but why is it awful? I realize that FT can abuse it better because of the more complete cantrip suite, but that's not to sat TES can't. In place of 3 ADN, or whatever, it could just snag key spells. So other than card disadvantage, why is it bad?

TES plays card disadvantage cards in order to win the game faster. Mystical Tutor takes time or even more card disadvantage to just snag a card. Too much card disadvantage is bad. A little is fine, however too much can hurt the deck. We either trade speed for Mystical or just do without it. Which is fine by me, because the card is awful. Yes, I understand, Mystical gets Ad Nauseum. Everyone has noticed that it's an instant now. However, the deck doesn't rely on casting Ad Nauseum. It has other paths to victory. Making it a much more versatile and resiliant deck. I've had this Mystical Tutor discussion way too many times now. It also is bad in the idea that it makes people want to play silver bullets maindeck. You never want to open a bullet or tutor target. Not to mention it doesn't work with the Ill-Gotten Gains loop, although less relevant now with Ad Nauseum. I personally think the card is terrible and won't ever play it, much like intuition.

rsaunder
10-01-2008, 09:29 PM
TES plays card disadvantage cards in order to win the game faster. Mystical Tutor takes time or even more card disadvantage to just snag a card. Too much card disadvantage is bad. A little is fine, however too much can hurt the deck. We either trade speed for Mystical or just do without it. Which is fine by me, because the card is awful. Yes, I understand, Mystical gets Ad Nauseum. Everyone has noticed that it's an instant now. However, the deck doesn't rely on casting Ad Nauseum. It has other paths to victory. Making it a much more versatile and resiliant deck. I've had this Mystical Tutor discussion way too many times now. It also is bad in the idea that it makes people want to play silver bullets maindeck. You never want to open a bullet or tutor target. Not to mention it doesn't work with the Ill-Gotten Gains loop, although less relevant now with Ad Nauseum. I personally think the card is terrible and won't ever play it, much like intuition.
I know it had been talked about before (as has every other card ever) but I thought that might have changed with the advent of AdN. You don't have to run silver bullets, I know that doesn't work in a deck like this. It's just an effective way to significantly lower the CC of the deck (-12 for 3 MT) and fetch other things when you need them (chant, IT if you have plenty of mana, etc.). It seems like it warrants another shot. If you don't want to get into the discussion again, that's fine, let this be the end of it.

On topic: running thoughtseize? With AdN it seems like the lifeloss is very relevant.

Bryant Cook
10-01-2008, 11:21 PM
I know it had been talked about before (as has every other card ever) but I thought that might have changed with the advent of AdN. You don't have to run silver bullets, I know that doesn't work in a deck like this. It's just an effective way to significantly lower the CC of the deck (-12 for 3 MT) and fetch other things when you need them (chant, IT if you have plenty of mana, etc.). It seems like it warrants another shot. If you don't want to get into the discussion again, that's fine, let this be the end of it.

On topic: running thoughtseize? With AdN it seems like the lifeloss is very relevant.

I'm looking for something that's protection, but I want it to be able to deal with Teeg/Counterbalance and hate. Is there anything in mind?

thefreakaccident
10-01-2008, 11:23 PM
I'm looking for something that's protection, but I want it to be able to deal with Teeg/Counterbalance and hate. Is there anything in mind?

Bounce spell?


EDIT: ...or thoughtseize

J.V.
10-01-2008, 11:25 PM
Bounce spell?


EDIT: ...or thoughtseize

We need a non thoughtseize card because the Life loss is actually relevant with AdN

thefreakaccident
10-01-2008, 11:41 PM
We need a non thoughtseize card because the Life loss is actually relevant with AdN

Well... then you will be running a bounce spell.

Di
10-01-2008, 11:51 PM
Um...Duress?

Jak
10-01-2008, 11:52 PM
Um...Duress?

Aren't you a guy that runs Gaddock Teeg?

J.V.
10-02-2008, 12:02 AM
Um...Duress?

Duress doesn't hit Teeg... but you know that :tongue:

Di
10-02-2008, 12:14 AM
Yes. Now shut the hell up. At least it still hits Counterbalance and Force of Will. :-/ Unless you want to go with blind Cabal Therapies all day long, Duress is the best substitute for Thoughtseize.

rsaunder
10-02-2008, 10:25 AM
Yes. Now shut the hell up. At least it still hits Counterbalance and Force of Will. :-/ Unless you want to go with blind Cabal Therapies all day long, Duress is the best substitute for Thoughtseize.Hoe often do you really deal with MM/Teeg game 1? And besides, it's not like you don't have outs to it *coughburningwishcough*. Duress>Thoughtseize in the initial 60.

EDIT: Unless you see enough survival to worry about teeg game 1, it's not worth the two life lost against everything else. amiright?

Di
10-02-2008, 03:08 PM
Hoe often do you really deal with MM/Teeg game 1? And besides, it's not like you don't have outs to it *coughburningwishcough*. Duress>Thoughtseize in the initial 60.

EDIT: Unless you see enough survival to worry about teeg game 1, it's not worth the two life lost against everything else. amiright?

That's why I'm arguing for Duress. Srsly, there's a random 1-of Teeg in a handful of Survival decks maindeck. The odds of people opening him and playing him turn 2 are slim. Then again, as Bryant knows, I happen to open him every single game against him. Still, Duress is fine. If you're playing against a deck with Gaddock Teeg, you should be winning before then. And if not winning, at least Chanting during the upkeep, and winning the following turn. If you can't do that, then you probably suck.

Bryant Cook
10-02-2008, 03:56 PM
That's why I'm arguing for Duress. Srsly, there's a random 1-of Teeg in a handful of Survival decks maindeck. The odds of people opening him and playing him turn 2 are slim. Then again, as Bryant knows, I happen to open him every single game against him. Still, Duress is fine. If you're playing against a deck with Gaddock Teeg, you should be winning before then. And if not winning, at least Chanting during the upkeep, and winning the following turn. If you can't do that, then you probably suck.

If this is the case, why even play a protection spell? At this point something else would be better. Probably add in more acceleration. Although, I don't want to add in Cabal Rituals or SSG's. It'd have to be something cheaper. I want to keep the casting cost of the deck lower.

I could add Xantid Swarm back in if I still wanted protection that doesn't cause lifeloss...Just a random thought.

rsaunder
10-02-2008, 05:33 PM
Duress is excellent though. It's a proactive solution to counterbalance and gets rid of forces if you're going with an AdN win. Was thoughtseize seriously just in there to deal with mage/teeg?

Bryant Cook
10-02-2008, 09:45 PM
Duress is excellent though. It's a proactive solution to counterbalance and gets rid of forces if you're going with an AdN win. Was thoughtseize seriously just in there to deal with mage/teeg?

I know you haven't played in awhile, however, Teeg is a serious problem. I'm thinking about puttting an additional Chrome Mox and Grapeshot in these slots. Grapeshot is a answer to creatures and a win-condition. Now much easier to have a high storm with Ad Nauseum.

rsaunder
10-03-2008, 12:29 AM
I'm getting back into it! And if that's the case, that creatures are that bad for you, I'd still probably advise grapeshot, although you do lack a good way to find it outside of comboing out which you have trouble doing if something's already preventing AdN.

Honestly, how much of a difference has thoughtseize been making for you? Like, does running 2x honestly help in those situations where you need it?

Windux
10-03-2008, 06:20 AM
I run Duress atm, too. Just to test how AdN works, here is my testing list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbidden Orchard
4 Orimís Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lionís Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Chrome Mox
3 Duress
2 Spirit Guide / 2 Cabal Ritual
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 AdN
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cleanfall
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:3 Vexing Shusher

I don't know anything better then Cabal Ritual. Should I cut the SSG for the Rituals? I like the Guides, because you need red, Both "just" adds 1 more mana to your pool.
Manamorphose is just worse as a random 0cc Cantrip, but at least it fixes.

Aj-capra
10-03-2008, 07:12 AM
This is my list now

// Lands
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard

// Creatures
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
2 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Ruin
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [CS] Deathmark

I play MD two manamorphose because they're a good ctrip and switch easy my mana.
In my SB I play echoing ruin versus chalice of the void and deathmark versus gaddok teeg.
I think to play - 2ssg + 1 chrome mox + 1 cabal ritual, but I must testing this solution.
Pyroclasm is necessary in my metagame because there're a lot of aggro

GreenOne
10-03-2008, 07:48 AM
I run Duress atm, too. Just to test how AdN works, here is my testing list:
1 Cruel Bargain


I don't get the 1xBargain, especially in combination with 3 Ad Nauseam.
The random drawing it and playing it will screw your Ad Nauseam Plans, and I doubt you are going to fetch it with hellbent IT.

Shouldn't it be some acceleration piece?

Dark_Cynic87
10-04-2008, 07:54 PM
Just built and played non-AdN TES for the first time; lost to FDDT 2-0, beat Ichorid 2-1, with me winning turn one game one, him turn 1 game 2 and me turn 2 game 3. Quickest. Match. Ever. Sick. I pulled game 3 out of my ass, honestly. It's a fun deck, but FDDT has way more ability to screw this over due to the ease of finding Chant. Chant in response to burning wish=bad news for combo turn...You all knew this, but I'm just learning how to play it. It's a lot easier to play than FDDT, and way more explosive. I like it.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: I know this topic has probably been beaten to death, but is there any way to find chants easier? They are pretty important for me in my meta, and when I play this I seem to get screwed without them...I'm sure it's been talked about, but I'm asking again: Is there any way to squeeze some amount of Mystical Tutors into the list? I'm gonna work on it.

Also, why are you playing more than one, two at the most of Ad Nauseam? 4 seems bad, and 3 seems pretty horrible as well...You can IT for it and whatnot...I think figuring out how to use it will be the biggest thing.

GreenOne
10-06-2008, 08:01 AM
If I had to play M. Tutor in a TES list, I'd play this.

// Lands
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
2 [6E] Mystical Tutor

More than 2 Mysticals is really too much sucky.
In some metas you can also try something like
-1 Ponder/Chrome Mox
+1 Draw4/ETW

Maagler
10-06-2008, 08:35 AM
If I had to play M. Tutor in a TES list, I'd play this.

// Lands
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
2 [6E] Mystical Tutor

More than 2 Mysticals is really too much sucky.
In some metas you can also try something like
-1 Ponder/Chrome Mox
+1 Draw4/ETW

Tarnished Citadel seems anisynergetic with ad nauseam. Have you ever had a problem with too much lifeloss from this?

myselves
10-06-2008, 09:13 AM
Is AdN realy worth cutting EtW and Draw4?
I agree that it's a bomb, but EtW or Draw4 are also great.
But compared to those two you could have some disadvantages against EvaGreen/Deadguy/Pox and so on, also EtW shines vs. ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh in most cases.

I haven't tested Landstill enough yet, but I assume that resolving AdN could be more difficult than Draw4 and you don't give the opponent the opportunity for some nearly epic trades.

So where is AdN superior compared to the good old cards?

Dark_Cynic87
10-06-2008, 09:42 AM
-1 Tarnished Citadel
+1 Forbidden Orchard

Fixt.

That list looks decent, might give that a go.

Pce,

--DC

actually, how about this:

// Lands
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [COK? I quit during this block; it sucked...] Forbidden Orchard

// Creatures
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TS] Empty the Warrens
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
2 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
2 [6E] Mystical Tutor

I like manamorphose's ability to free cantrip into what you just tutored for, fixing mana and being a "free" +1 on storm. One more thing, 4x Chrome Mox seems silly. I get it's a free storm count without losing life to AdN, but is 4 really reliable? It's horrible card disadvantage. I rarely *WANT* to get rid of something out of my hand...Maybe I'm wrong.

Also, is the semi-synergistic play of Seething Song-->Manamorphose-->AdN something to at least look at? Maybe that is just another deck...or horrible. That could be it (teh OMG I broke teh 4mat!!!!!!11!!one1!).

It's my contention that you don't need the Draw-Xs other than Ad Nauseam with the 2x Tutors, and 2x IGG is the most reliable way of going off other than AdN. Graveyard hate whatevah. Ad Nauseam through that, and any other time IGG, you still have burning wish to get you the draw-7 if you are in a very desperate situation...I just hate that card, and frankly, if there's any way at all, I'm not using it. I'll leave it in my sideboard, but other than that it can GTFO.

On a lighter note, I like the way this list looks. Now, if it just WORKS...

Pce,

--DC

Second Edit: Damn, no Duress...how would I squeeze THOSE in?

Bryant Cook
10-06-2008, 11:14 AM
Do we really need all of these decklists? Let's be logical here. Just post your changes.

Manamorphose- You're running this over Moxen, terrible idea. Not to mention it sucks with Ad Nauseum compared to a Mox, which actually adds mana. Ad Nauseum should also be a 3-4 of. 1-2 seems weak.

Mystical Tutor- What is this good with? It finds Chants or your singleton Nauseum. Just play more protection and more Nauseums. This way you cut away the time tutor takes away.

Ill-Gotten Gains- Two is one too many. You only need one to get to storm 10.

ETW+Returns- These should be pushed to the SB for Nauseum. You don't really need them anymore maindeck. Still very solid wish targets.

Whoever was playing a Draw 4 - Awful with Nauseum, just play another AdN.

Duress vs. Thoughtsieze - I prefer Thoughtsieze, I haven't found the two life to be crucial at all in my testing. Being able to take creatures is huge.

...I think that's all for now.

GoldenCid
10-06-2008, 12:39 PM
Is ad nausseam really better than plunge into darkness??

J.V.
10-06-2008, 12:43 PM
Is ad nausseam really better than plunge into darkness??

Lets think about our posts before posting... Plunge into darkness is at best a bad tutor that costs you X life. Ad Nauseam a game breaking spell that creates ridiculous card advantage (for the most part it wins you the game immediately) for x life. so yes Ad Nauseam REALLY IS better than Plunge into Darkness

Bryant Cook
10-06-2008, 12:44 PM
Is ad nausseam really better than plunge into darkness??

I'm not sure if this is a joke or not. I'll answer seriously. Nauseum allows you to draw 10-15 cards for 5 mana and X life where X is the amount of life payed. Plunge into Darkness puts one card into your hand out of X where X is the life you pay.

Omega
10-06-2008, 12:49 PM
but one has a CC of 5 and the other of 2, if it is relevant :O

Robert

rsaunder
10-06-2008, 02:05 PM
but one has a CC of 5 and the other of 2, if it is relevant :O

Robert

The deck plays plenty of tutor power, it needs bombs like AdN to win the game rather than set up.

deviant
10-06-2008, 02:09 PM
but one has a CC of 5 and the other of 2, if it is relevant :O

Robert

Yes, Ad Nauseam even dodges Spell Snare among all the other shit.

Dark_Cynic87
10-06-2008, 02:54 PM
>2 Ad Nauseam = massive life-loss.

I think Manamorphose is quite decent. I've seen at least a couple lists on this thread running it, and I think I will also. These storm lists aren't strictly what someone thinks, they can and are customized to a pilot's playstyle.

Mystical Tutor was put in for the exact reasons you are stated. I think it's needed--my meta is mostly combo (they follow my lead, lol). See the point above.

So, 3-4 Ad Nauseam is fine along with Thoughtseize...Seems painful. Another reason I'm running Mystical Tutors. I will drop an IGG for a second AdN. In FDDT, you really mostly need 2x IGG to combo off that way (you can it with one, but FDDT doesn't string IT's for added storm, which is what I was forgetting about in this list). I will also drop the EtW (I'm not fond of passing the turn after comboing off anyway--Check my sig for the reason).

Are Simian Spirit Guide absolutely necessary? I know they help, but are they necessary?

I'd like to go:
-2 SSG (The lifeloss from AdN seems pointless as they don't help boost your storm count--I'm not sure if the mana they provide is trivial or not...)
-1 EtW

+3 T-Seize//Duress (I've never found creatures to be a big deal. Maybe it's my meta--Testing will show for me which is the better option.)

Testing, testing, testing...meh.

Pce,

--DC

Bryant Cook
10-11-2008, 11:11 PM
I just got back to college from a few days away (concert and home). While being home I played Friday Night Magic and playtested the new TES list extensively. I've decided Thoughtsieze has to become Duress. Other than that no changes. Tonight I played in a small event and took 1st. I lost to Dragon Stompy round one, I should've won. Game one I mulled to 5 and won, game 2 Dragon Stompy does what it does, game 2 I open 3 land 2 Petal Nauseum after mulliganing. Not thinking, I just said land, go. It lost me the match. If I had played petal I wouldn't have lost to Turn 1 Magus + Chalice. I then beat Survival (I won through Seize and Teeg on turn 4), Aggro-loam, and Ichorid twice with ease. I've never had sooo many turn 1 wins. Probably half of my games tonight were turn 1 kills. Well that's it for the updates, any questions?

Aj-capra
10-12-2008, 05:04 AM
I just got back to college from a few days away (concert and home). While being home I played Friday Night Magic and playtested the new TES list extensively. I've decided Thoughtsieze has to become Duress. Other than that no changes. Tonight I played in a small event and took 1st. I lost to Dragon Stompy round one, I should've won. Game one I mulled to 5 and won, game 2 Dragon Stompy does what it does, game 2 I open 3 land 2 Petal Nauseum after mulliganing. Not thinking, I just said land, go. It lost me the match. If I had played petal I wouldn't have lost to Turn 1 Magus + Chalice. I then beat Survival (I won through Seize and Teeg on turn 4), Aggro-loam, and Ichorid twice with ease. I've never had sooo many turn 1 wins. Probably half of my games tonight were turn 1 kills. Well that's it for the updates, any questions?

Have you change your list or not?
I had testing new tes 8-9 twice only, but ad-n is very very good.
Angel's Grace isn't good in this deck??

I'll play new tes in a tournament next sunday.

badjuju
10-12-2008, 07:49 AM
I just got back to college from a few days away (concert and home). While being home I played Friday Night Magic and playtested the new TES list extensively. I've decided Thoughtsieze has to become Duress. Other than that no changes. Tonight I played in a small event and took 1st. I lost to Dragon Stompy round one, I should've won. Game one I mulled to 5 and won, game 2 Dragon Stompy does what it does, game 2 I open 3 land 2 Petal Nauseum after mulliganing. Not thinking, I just said land, go. It lost me the match. If I had played petal I wouldn't have lost to Turn 1 Magus + Chalice. I then beat Survival (I won through Seize and Teeg on turn 4), Aggro-loam, and Ichorid twice with ease. I've never had sooo many turn 1 wins. Probably half of my games tonight were turn 1 kills. Well that's it for the updates, any questions?

Good stuff.
Could you elaborate a bit more on how you won through the Seize + Teeg vs Survival? Was there some Grapeshot action involved?

Also this may have been asked/answered before, but what's your boarding plan vs Chalice/Trinisphere decks?

kicks_422
10-12-2008, 08:47 AM
While being home I played Friday Night Magic and playtested the new TES list extensively.

What's your new list? I browsed back a couple of pages and saw one with 4 Ad Nauseams. I thought you were running only 2, so maybe you've made a few more tweaks from that.

Bryant Cook
10-12-2008, 12:12 PM
The win against Teeg was he turn one Thoughtseized, Took LED. Turn 2 Bird, Turn 3 Teeg for him. I sat there, in my Draws, I drew, Land, Land, LED. Then on turn 4, I Dark Ritualed x2, Cabal Rit, SSG -> Rite of Flame, LED, Burning Wish, Grapeshot, Infernal Tutor -> win.

Angel's Grace is awful. It's just a win-more card.

as for the decklist... It's the same...The Average CC is 1.25 (Thanks JV).


For reference here's the list I'm using:

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbidden Orchard

Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Orimís Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lionís Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ad Nauseum
3 Ponder
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cleanfall
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:3 Vexing Shusher

J.V.
10-14-2008, 02:14 AM
Bryant, I've been playing the same list as you almost,
only difference is:
-1 Ad Nauseam
+1 Chrome Mox
but I was just curious what your siding strategy was with current T.E.S. against Aggro-Control?
I've been doing something along these lines:
-2 Cabal Ritual
-2 Chrome Mox
-2 Ponder
+3 Vexing Shusher
+3 Pyroblast

Bryant Cook
10-15-2008, 12:11 PM
Bryant, I've been playing the same list as you almost,
only difference is:
-1 Ad Nauseam
+1 Chrome Mox
but I was just curious what your siding strategy was with current T.E.S. against Aggro-Control?
I've been doing something along these lines:
-2 Cabal Ritual
-2 Chrome Mox
-2 Ponder
+3 Vexing Shusher
+3 Pyroblast

It'd probably be...
-3 Ponder
-1 Ad Nauseum (Since I run 4, this may be Mox for you)
-2 SSG

This lowers the average CC of the deck. You need fast mana post Nauseum, and Chrome Mox is the best that we have.

J.V.
10-15-2008, 12:25 PM
It'd probably be...
-3 Ponder
-1 Ad Nauseum (Since I run 4, this may be Mox for you)
-2 SSG

This lowers the average CC of the deck. You need fast mana post Nauseum, and Chrome Mox is the best that we have.

Alright thanks Bryant.

Happy Gilmore
10-15-2008, 01:27 PM
Tinder Wall has been performing very very well so far in testing. That being said, I believe AN is an improvement, but not a drastic one.

Bryant Cook
10-15-2008, 01:35 PM
Tinder Wall has been performing very very well so far in testing. That being said, I believe AN is an improvement, but not a drastic one.

Anwar and I had this discussion already. It slows the deck down, Anwar is running it in place of Cabal Ritual. Cabal Ritual creates BB for Nauseum and can be casts in complement of other mana. Do you honestly think it's reasonable to try and cast R/B/G for a first turn Nauseum? R/B is much more simple and logical. Throwing green mana into discussion seems poor to me. In the rare case that we do have Threshold, the bonus of running Cabal Ritual is that much greater. The two copies of Tinder Wall when you draw them, will most always be better off as Cabal Rituals. Tinder Wall is also terrible with Chrome Mox.

AnwarA101
10-15-2008, 01:59 PM
Anwar and I had this discussion already. It slows the deck down, Anwar is running it in place of Cabal Ritual. Cabal Ritual creates BB for Nauseum and can be casts in complement of other mana. Do you honestly think it's reasonable to try and cast R/B/G for a first turn Nauseum? R/B is much more simple and logical. Throwing green mana into discussion seems poor to me. In the rare case that we do have Threshold, the bonus of running Cabal Ritual is that much greater. The two copies of Tinder Wall when you draw them, will most always be better off as Cabal Rituals. Tinder Wall is also terrible with Chrome Mox.

I started fishing the list with 2 Cabal Rituals and it does seem to work like Bryant said. I found that it helps you convert more mana into BB for Ad Nauseam and it is really good off Ad Nauseam as it help you get BB for Tendrils. I like Tinder Wall, but it does complicate the mana situation early in the game and is pretty poor off of Ad Nauseam.

BigDCool
10-19-2008, 03:27 PM
I suck at reports and its not like my 2-5 record at the source tourney over the weekend is much to report. However, ill post my list and its not all that much different from the tuned lists Bryant and J.V have posted. Also in my defense I have not been heavily invested in playing tournament level magic since around 2005. After saying that I am also bad at magic.

Lands 10

4 Gemstone mines
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmer Void (could not find an Undiscovered paradise)
1 Forbidden Orchard

Spells 50

4 Dark Rituals
3 Cabal Rituals
4 Rite of Flames
4 Lion's Eye Diamonds
4 Lotus Petals
4 Chrome Mox
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Duress
3 Orim's Chants
4 Brain Storm
3 Mystical Tutors
4 Ad Nauseum
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:
3 Vexing shusher
3 Pyroblast
2 Echoing Ruin( Only because I was told that Shattering Spree could not be used under a Chalice for 1)
1 Shattering Spree
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cleanfall
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns

All in all the deck preformed very well but its pilot on the other hand had a day full of play errors and miss-steps that cost me more than a few matches that I should have won. Im not sold on mystical I will test more with it and ponder and then decide. I had a great deal of fun at the Sources Tournament and I thank everyone who put in hard work to make it a fun time. Also thanks J.V. for testing with me after the tournament was over it was very helpful. Thats it for my first post here, Ill be lurking around and posting when I have something worthwhile to add.

badjuju
10-19-2008, 04:25 PM
2 Echoing Ruin( Only because I was told that Shattering Spree could not be used under a Chalice for 1)


For those unclear, straight from the virtual judge:

Q: I have Chalice of the Void in play with one counter on it. Would Replicated copies of Shattering Spree get through? A friend and I got into an argument over it. I think that if the Shattering Spree gets countered, you can't pay the Replicate cost. He says you can Replicate as much as you want, and it would all go through, similar to Storm.

A: Your friend is correct, Replicate is very similar to the Storm keyword ability. You pay the Replicate cost when you play the Replicate spell, before any other spell or ability can counter your spell. Even if the original spell is countered, the Replicate triggered ability will go on the stack, this ability will create the appropriate number of copies, and the copies will resolve as normal.

Also, grats James Peyton on top 2 (I don't know who that is, but it's J.V.'s list).

Bryant Cook
10-19-2008, 04:35 PM
For those unclear, straight from the virtual judge:

Q: I have Chalice of the Void in play with one counter on it. Would Replicated copies of Shattering Spree get through? A friend and I got into an argument over it. I think that if the Shattering Spree gets countered, you can't pay the Replicate cost. He says you can Replicate as much as you want, and it would all go through, similar to Storm.

A: Your friend is correct, Replicate is very similar to the Storm keyword ability. You pay the Replicate cost when you play the Replicate spell, before any other spell or ability can counter your spell. Even if the original spell is countered, the Replicate triggered ability will go on the stack, this ability will create the appropriate number of copies, and the copies will resolve as normal.

Also, grats James Peyton on top 2 (I don't know who that is, but it's J.V.'s list).

This is correct.

Also, the night before the event I cut an Ad Nauseum for a Mox. I was hitting them a lot off of other Nauseums. That morning, James asked me for the changes.

badjuju
10-19-2008, 06:11 PM
This is correct.

Also, the night before the event I cut an Ad Nauseum for a Mox. I was hitting them a lot off of other Nauseums. That morning, James asked me for the changes.

How did the tournament go for you? Could you grace us with some matchups, good or bad? Pitfalls, slops, props? How did Ad Nauseum perform?

J.V.
10-19-2008, 06:29 PM
Also, grats James Peyton on top 2 (I don't know who that is, but it's J.V.'s list).
That's kinda nifty didn't realize this... :eek: Anyways I was going to play it too but ended up switching around 1:00 am before the tournament because Vanele wanted to run my TES deck. Oh well.

Bryant Cook
10-19-2008, 06:41 PM
How did the tournament go for you? Could you grace us with some matchups, good or bad? Pitfalls, slops, props? How did Ad Nauseum perform?

I played very poorly. A lot of play mistakes on my part. I'm not going to make any excuses on my part, I played like shit. I ended up being 4-3, pathetic. I lost to goblins (TWICE!) and It's the Fear. Mulliganing into oblivion twice, then play mistakes twice. I feel like if I was paying more attention I would've done much, much better.

Lejay
10-21-2008, 03:35 PM
Sorry to post this here, but wizards hasn't done any coverage on the legacy side event that took place in GP Paris (109 players). We only miss the TES list which came 3rd in the rounds, so if Manuel Wolf could post his list here it would be great.

Van Phanel
10-21-2008, 06:16 PM
Manuel doesn't read The Source, nor is he usually a legacy player. But as both him and me did incredibly bad at the mainevent, I got him to play Legacy with my TES. He had only played the deck in testgames so far and despite not knowing the format he did pretty well.

His list was basically pre-AD Nauseam TES with one Ad Nauseam added in place of an Infernal Contract (we only had one available):

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Contract
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns

4 Orim's Chant

SB:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility (no Cleanfall available, also it never matters)
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Duress
3 Pyroblast

As we had only 15 minutes to build the deck and write the decklist, the sideboard is pretty bad. The Pyroblasts shouldn't have been in there, the rest is probably okay.

Edit: I asked him about his matchups:

Death and Taxes, 2-1
TrinketStalker 1-2 (he lost g3 because he went for turn1 ETW for 12 or 14 and his opponent had his singleton EE in hand)
Meathooks 2-0
Death and Taxes, 2-0
Dredge, 2-1
Goyf Sligh, 2-1

Edit2: He got pretty lucky with his matchups considering that my matchups (with Solidarity) were: White Stax, balanced Fish, Faerie Stompy, Faeries, Landstill, It's the Fear, 11 Meddling Mage.dec (lifecombo with three Mage, 4 Eladamri's Call, 4 Living Wish main)

@Lejay: Where can I find the lists from 4th to seventh? - Okay, thanks, seen your post in the Top8-Thread.

BigDCool
10-22-2008, 11:14 AM
I was thinking today about Cunning wish and its place in this deck. Since we are cutting down to 3 AdN because everyone after the first increase the chance of fizzle, Why not run 1 main board 3 cunnings and one in the side. I am very rusty at magic and this could just sound like a good idea in my head. It seems like it could be worth while and lower the over all CC of the deck or it might just be too clunky and slow things down with its 3CC. I have very little time to test things so im just bouncing an idea around, if it has been discussed before just ignore me.

badjuju
10-22-2008, 11:51 AM
I was thinking today about Cunning wish and its place in this deck. Since we are cutting down to 3 AdN because everyone after the first increase the chance of fizzle, Why not run 1 main board 3 cunnings and one in the side. I am very rusty at magic and this could just sound like a good idea in my head. It seems like it could be worth while and lower the over all CC of the deck or it might just be too clunky and slow things down with its 3CC. I have very little time to test things so im just bouncing an idea around, if it has been discussed before just ignore me.

I think it's still better to run 3-4 MB because it greatly increases your chances for a turn 1 kill. Ever since the deck got Ad Nauseum, the amount of turn 1 and 2 kills I've gotten is phenomenal. Adding Cunning Wish is a decent idea, but the deck as it stands is completely fine without it. The life-loss is actually not as bad as people think it is, and I still draw over 10 cards from AdN consistently. Having to reach 8 mana (5BBU) may also prove difficult, unless you wait a turn or have an LED.

Not sure if the card has been tried in the deck yet, since there were no instant-speed engines used in the past, but great idea - I just think it's unnecessary.

jrp
10-22-2008, 12:36 PM
Cunning Wish is not necessary in the deck. You don't need to find Ad-Nauseum to win. In fact, more often than not you just win with an IGG loop or Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns. Plus Burning Wish already eats up 6-7 sideboard slots, there is no room for another Wish board.

Dark_Cynic87
10-23-2008, 12:34 AM
I'm sure this is gonna get bashed, but I don't care. Here's teh list I'm running, as is a buddy. It does well. It's never been to a tourney as there aren't really any around here. My buddies and I play legacy, and have a decent metagame built, but not enough players for actual events. Anyway, here's the list:

Spells--50
2x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED
2x Manamorphose (here's where the bashing begins...)
1x Desperate Ritual (more bashing...)
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Ad Nauseam
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish
4x Orim's Chant
4x Duress

Land--10
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Forbidden Orchard
1x Undiscovered Paradise

SB--15
1x Hull Breach
1x Shattering Spree
1x Cleanfall
1x Infernal Tutor (more bashing...)
1x Infernal Contract (will probably drop...)
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
3x Vexing Shusher (may go down to 2x)
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens (I'm not sure why this is in here...)
3x Pyroblast (Should I drop a shusher and an EtW for 5x? If not, lmk your thoughts on the SB)

I think I originally had 3x Chrome Mox in here, but I dropped one for the 4th M. Tutor. Love them. Anyway, it's not like anyone is going to agree with my list as you all run >2x AdN, but I'm good with it as a singleton.

Pce,

--DC

troopatroop
10-23-2008, 01:04 AM
I'm sure this is gonna get bashed, but I don't care. Here's teh list I'm running, as is a buddy. It does well. It's never been to a tourney as there aren't really any around here. My buddies and I play legacy, and have a decent metagame built, but not enough players for actual events. Anyway, here's the list:

Spells--50
2x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED
2x Manamorphose (here's where the bashing begins...)
1x Desperate Ritual (more bashing...)
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Ad Nauseam
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish
4x Orim's Chant
4x Duress

Land--10
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Forbidden Orchard
1x Undiscovered Paradise

SB--15
1x Hull Breach
1x Shattering Spree
1x Cleanfall
1x Infernal Tutor (more bashing...)
1x Infernal Contract (will probably drop...)
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
3x Vexing Shusher (may go down to 2x)
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens (I'm not sure why this is in here...)
3x Pyroblast (Should I drop a shusher and an EtW for 5x? If not, lmk your thoughts on the SB)

I think I originally had 3x Chrome Mox in here, but I dropped one for the 4th M. Tutor. Love them. Anyway, it's not like anyone is going to agree with my list as you all run >2x AdN, but I'm good with it as a singleton.

Pce,

--DC

Your changes are...

-2 Ad Nauseam
-2 Chome Mox (which are critical for winning Post-AdN)
-2 SSG
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Infernal Tutor

+1 Desperate Ritual (Big ?)
+2 Manamorphose
+4 Mystical Tutor
+2 Duress

You say you're fine with AdN as a one of. I question this. What is your reasoning behind this? Yes, when you cast it, you will never Lava Axe yourself for flipping another, but what about the fact that you're practically never going to open it. This greatly decreases your chances for the turn 1 win. Flipping an AdN really isn't that big of a deal, and you'll probably still win anyways. Why cut the most broken card in the deck?

The absence of Mystical Tutor is one of the reasons that I play this deck and not ANT. Mystical grabbing AdN is a great play, since you win anyways, but Mystical is also a historically bad card, and not entirely neccesary.

Desperate Ritual? Why? How is this better than Cabal Ritual? Is it because you insist on running...

Manamorphose? This has been commented on a billion times before, and I feel like such a troll for biting, but I am. The best thing that Manamorphose does is Color Fix. This deck runs rainbow lands, so this is rarely needed. You net 0 mana and 0 cards with the spell.

How many situations have you been in before going off that you were a mana short, but had Manamorphose in hand? At that point you're faced with the decision. Do I cast my Rituals and attempt to go off, and hope that the top card is a card that nets me mana? Or do I wait another turn. Say you go off, and need that top card to be a Petal or a Ritual, and its any one of the many spells that don't give you that mana. Well, you've just lost the game. My point being, that Manamorphose is unreliable. Who knows what that top card is going to be, and banking on it will bite you in the ass. Why play this when you can just play a spell that always adds +1 to your pool and know that you can go off. Like Cabal Ritual.

Sure, you could play the Manamorphose first in your chain to see if you nab the goods, but then what has the spell done? Now you've got 2 mana in the pool and potentially nothing to dump it into.

Why play a card that everyone insists is bad?

badjuju
10-23-2008, 03:52 AM
I think troopatroop pretty much covered most of it, but the biggest question is still "why?". You don't explain your card choices, you just say we're going to bash you.

This deck is based around explosiveness and bombs. Mystical Tutor, while it adds consistency, is really not what this deck is looking for. Those slots are better reserved as: more bombs, more cantrip/setup, or more mana acceleration. Also, the cantrips in this deck are amazing btw, they let you keep otherwise unkeepable hands.

About your board...

-Infernal Tutor is a MD bomb. I'm not sure why there's one in your SB. Did you want to Burning Wish for it? Why wish for it when you can just wish for a win condition?
-Vexing Shusher dropped to 2? The whole point of having 3 is so that you can see it consistently, since there's no other way to find it.
-Hull Breach isn't needed. In the most extreme case, I've used Hull Breach to destroy a Ghostly Prison and a Chalice @ 1 (happened only ever once). That was when I was still playing Belcher, and thank god that TES no longer depends on EtW for a primary win. Shattering Spree and Cleanfall are both better at what they do.
-You're right about Infernal Contract, it just isn't needed.

matelml
10-23-2008, 08:41 AM
It's definately a mistake to remove EtW from the maindeck. If you worry about the CC: some people play with 4 Ad Nauseams, so 3 AdN and 1 EtW should be doable. EtW is really important, unless your whole meta is anti-TES. Like 1/4 of the decks have an answer to EtW on turn 2-3 and they usually play around 2-4. That means on avarage 0.5-1 answers maindeck. And even then you can usually see if you are playing a deck with answers. My turn 1-3 EtW only gets answered like 1 out of 8 times. This includes game 2 and 3's. It's really, really good. You can choose between combo for 6 mana, EtW, 7, AdN or IGG if you have LED+Dark Rit or 8, IGG. Against decks you can't wait for the 7th mana you need it. Like when you expect CB next turn, or 3 Sphere, or Hymn. I play 3 SSG, 3 Mox, 3 AdN, 3 Wish, 4 Ponder, 2 Cabal Ritual and 11 land, the rest 4x or 1x. I am happy with it. I am considering 3rd Cabal instead of 4th Ponder. 4 Moxes is really bad.

This is originally from a different thread.

I agree Desperate Ritual is very bad. Further it seems like Dark Cynics list could be tested, but my guess is, it's worse than without Mystical Tutor. IT Sb isn't good. If you have enough MD tutors, remove some Wishes. I only play 3 cause AdN has the same function, you don't want too many bussines spells, they clog up your hand. They are needed, but the 4th is not.

Also:Dark Cynic, you say you want to remove EtW from the Sb. Don't. It should be your most wished card.

jrp
10-23-2008, 09:30 AM
I don't know if ETW is my most wished for card, I think I wish for Tendrils and for IGG more often. However, it definitely should never be cut from the sideboard. I found during the source tourney I really wanted a wishable thoughtseize/duress. Does anyone play a wishable protection spell? If you do, what does your sideboard look like?