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BigDCool
10-23-2008, 10:34 AM
Well the Current side looks to be this list,


SB:
3 Vexing shusher
3 Pyroblast
3 Shattering Spree
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cleanfall (1 Duress or Thoughtseize)
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns

The only thing I can even think that could go would be the Cleanfall or one Shattering Spree for a duress or Thoughtsieze. However, the Cleanfall option leaves you with no outs verse counter balace or Pyrostatic pillar and if you go the -1 Shattering Spree you run into problems finding it when you need to get rid of a problem artifact. Cleanfall seems like the best bet to go and then you would just need to replace one of the Shattering Sprees with a sorcery that fills both artifact and enchantment destruction. Hull breach seems like a logical choice buts its far more vulnerable to Counter balance. Im not sure that there is a good way to fit it in, unless you have no wish option for Enchantment hate and change 1 shattering spree to a Kroshan Grip.

myselves
10-23-2008, 01:47 PM
It's definately a mistake to remove EtW from the maindeck. If you worry about the CC: some people play with 4 Ad Nauseams, so 3 AdN and 1 EtW should be doable. EtW is really important, unless your whole meta is anti-TES.

This depends.
If your deck reliants on Ad N. EtW becomes worse than another Ad N. cause if there's only one good thing on TES with Ad Nauseam it is that you don't lose to EE/Wish->Dreams or anything like this.

If you run Ad Nauseam in your TES list you should focus to go off with Nauseam or Iggy-Loop, EtW MD isn't needed anymore. It would just waste a slot where additional Discard or Setup would be better instead.

@Duress/Thougtseize in the Wishboard: You just wish for one of them if you're winning anyway, so a slot for aditional discard is down the drain.

Bryant Cook
10-23-2008, 02:02 PM
It's definately a mistake to remove EtW from the maindeck. If you worry about the CC: some people play with 4 Ad Nauseams, so 3 AdN and 1 EtW should be doable. EtW is really important, unless your whole meta is anti-TES. Like 1/4 of the decks have an answer to EtW on turn 2-3 and they usually play around 2-4. That means on avarage 0.5-1 answers maindeck. And even then you can usually see if you are playing a deck with answers. My turn 1-3 EtW only gets answered like 1 out of 8 times. This includes game 2 and 3's. It's really, really good. You can choose between combo for 6 mana, EtW, 7, AdN or IGG if you have LED+Dark Rit or 8, IGG. Against decks you can't wait for the 7th mana you need it. Like when you expect CB next turn, or 3 Sphere, or Hymn. I play 3 SSG, 3 Mox, 3 AdN, 3 Wish, 4 Ponder, 2 Cabal Ritual and 11 land, the rest 4x or 1x. I am happy with it. I am considering 3rd Cabal instead of 4th Ponder. 4 Moxes is really bad.

ETW just isn't needed anymore. You're better off waiting a turn to get the additional mana to cast Ad Nauseum or having 2 more mana and just Igg-Looping. Ad Nauseum won't get Engineered Explosives'd away or Deed'd away. Not to mention ETW after Nauseum is TERRIBLE. Being anywhere between 1-6 life and having Goblin tokens isn't that good. I don't see a need for the card to be maindecked.

People have pretty much cleared up my thoughts on 'Cynic's lists.

Discard in the sideboard isn't needed. I used to do it, however, it's not very effective to spend 3 mana on a Duress. Most of the time the Burning Wish will draw out the counter anyways.

Dark_Cynic87
10-24-2008, 04:12 PM
I expected the whole Manamorphose thing, and frankly I think you are wrong. It's ability to be free granted you have 1R/G in your mana pool is a plus, as it's +1 Storm count at the VERY least, but also, it's good with the card I added in that adds consistancy--M. Tutor. You can stop AdN'ing sooner when you hit this + M. Tutor. It does well for me.

Also, the Chrome Mox is rarely an issue. I normally go off turn 2 (maybe I'm lucky, IDK). I normally haven't played a land turn 2. Drawing a land is almost a given, and it gives me the mana I need to continue going off. I've never found a need for a 3rd Chrome Mox. I tested it, but dropped it feeling that it was unneccessary and put in a business spell instead.

Desperate Ritual--I understand your outlook on it, but running 10x Rits is fine, and I like it 5/5 split between R/B. There are times you need a red business spell (and not just for Manamorphose).

I've found that with a IT in the board, I've become more consistant. When IGG looping, I've come across being only at 8 storm count and B. Wishing for a win-condition. Sometimes it's okay if they've Thoughtseized//Popped a few fetches, but otherwise, it's shitty.

I'm not saying you have to like it or play it or can't change it, but I definitely think that 1x AdN is good enough and that no one should play more than 2x, and lastly that M. Tutors should be looked at more in depth...

Oh, and my sideboard is still being worked on, all your concerns seem legitimate in that aspect. Nothing there is perfected nor do I have reasons. I just thought I'd let you know what I was working with.

Pce,

--DC

Elf_Ascetic
10-24-2008, 04:21 PM
ETW just isn't needed anymore. You're better off waiting a turn to get the additional mana to cast Ad Nauseum or having 2 more mana and just Igg-Looping.

Not against Threshold.

It's just an extra option, you can always decide to wait a few turns to find some other stuff IF you have time. If you don't, 12 goblin tokens are pretty good.

Mayk0l
10-24-2008, 04:39 PM
but also, it's good with the card I added in that adds consistancy--M. Tutor. You can stop AdN'ing sooner when you hit this + M. Tutor. It does well for me.

Also, TES doesn't play Mystical Tutor, how many times has this been discussed? I lost track.

Elf_Ascetic
10-24-2008, 04:44 PM
Also, TES doesn't play Mystical Tutor, how many times has this been discussed? I lost track.

Some recent list do play Mystical. Testing results look promising.

GreenOne
10-24-2008, 07:55 PM
Also, TES doesn't play Mystical Tutor, how many times has this been discussed? I lost track.

Ad Nauseam addition changes those results. Mystical tutor must be retested, and it may, actually prove worthiness, improving 2nd turn comboing or fetching a SB/whatever answer.

b4r0n
10-24-2008, 08:10 PM
Mystical Tutor actually seems like a better set-up spell than Ponder: it finds you Ad Nauseam if you need the win, Ritual if you need accel, Chant if you need protection. I agree, I think it's worth consideration.

Also, this might be a terrible idea, but has there been any consideration for cutting IGG from the maindeck? It doesn't seem like an effective engine anymore with Ad Nauseam in the deck. I mean, it's certainly more useful when your life total has been lowered, but that's basically the only time you'd prefer it over Ad Nauseam. Is that enough of a concern to warrant it's slot?

I might be placing too much emphasis on Ad Nauseam... but that's where nearly all of my wins have come from in playing with TES.

badjuju
10-24-2008, 08:23 PM
Mystical Tutor actually seems like a better set-up spell than Ponder: it finds you Ad Nauseam if you need the win, Ritual if you need accel, Chant if you need protection. I agree, I think it's worth consideration.

Also, this might be a terrible idea, but has there been any consideration for cutting IGG from the maindeck? It doesn't seem like an effective engine anymore with Ad Nauseam in the deck. I mean, it's certainly more useful when your life total has been lowered, but that's basically the only time you'd prefer it over Ad Nauseam. Is that enough of a concern to warrant it's slot?

I might be placing too much emphasis on Ad Nauseam... but that's where nearly all of my wins have come from in playing with TES.

IGG shouldn't be cut from TES. In many cases it is always a safe and guaranteed way to generate large amounts of storm. I'd say more than half of the games I win with a resolved AdN. The rest? IGG loop.

Apex
10-24-2008, 08:56 PM
IGG is also great against quick aggro/burn that can take a large chunk on turn 2 (Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lightning? So I start at 10 life for Ad Nauseam after tapping my City of Brass for mana?). With IGG, you can pretty much ignore that.

Though I guess you can Diminishing Returns too and win from there....but IGG just kills so consistently.

BreathWeapon
10-24-2008, 10:20 PM
IGG shouldn't be cut from TES. In many cases it is always a safe and guaranteed way to generate large amounts of storm. I'd say more than half of the games I win with a resolved AdN. The rest? IGG loop.

I don't think it's necessary, I haven't ran IGG in the MD for a month and I'm still beating aggro with out problems, I actually prefer ETW in that slot because it's not a brick and it improves the odds you'll draw into a kill condition.

You can still IGG loop with Burning Wish or just SB IGG in game 2, all you need is redundancy vs Meddling Mage for Infernal Tutor. It's useful, but it's not really a sacred cow any more.

badjuju
10-24-2008, 11:29 PM
I don't think it's necessary, I haven't ran IGG in the MD for a month and I'm still beating aggro with out problems, I actually prefer ETW in that slot because it's not a brick and it improves the odds you'll draw into a kill condition.

You can still IGG loop with Burning Wish or just SB IGG in game 2, all you need is redundancy vs Meddling Mage for Infernal Tutor. It's useful, but it's not really a sacred cow any more.

I can see your reasoning here, but I just like having another MB storm engine. 1 MD EtW isn't bad either and is actually golden in a decent amount of matchups.

On another note, I decided to give Mystical Tutor a shot in this deck (in place of Ponder). I've only goldfished like 30 games, but my impression is that it's decent. There's still the very glaring problem of card disadvantage from putting it ontop of deck, which in return also slows down the potential turn 1 kills (that are actually made possible quite often by the support of Ponder - at least in my experience). Although I will admit that the setup it provides is strong.

Dark_Cynic87
10-28-2008, 02:11 PM
On another note, I decided to give Mystical Tutor a shot in this deck (in place of Ponder). I've only goldfished like 30 games, but my impression is that it's decent. There's still the very glaring problem of card disadvantage from putting it ontop of deck, which in return also slows down the potential turn 1 kills (that are actually made possible quite often by the support of Ponder - at least in my experience). Although I will admit that the setup it provides is strong.

Actually, I'd use it in addition to ponder. It's not decent, it's fantastic. See, here is where Manamorphose comes in very handy. It cantrips for free* (we all know what I mean). After AdN, it's very easy to tutor for U (Chrome mox imprinting Ponder/BS or use Petal, or drop your rainbow land, w/ever). Play more of your mana accel, cantrip into your win. It's VERY handy. I only run it as a 2x of.

I run a 2/3/4/ split of Ponder, Mystical Tutor, and Brainstorm, respectively.

Pce,

--DC

badjuju
11-02-2008, 04:44 AM
Actually, I'd use it in addition to ponder. It's not decent, it's fantastic. See, here is where Manamorphose comes in very handy. It cantrips for free* (we all know what I mean). After AdN, it's very easy to tutor for U (Chrome mox imprinting Ponder/BS or use Petal, or drop your rainbow land, w/ever). Play more of your mana accel, cantrip into your win. It's VERY handy. I only run it as a 2x of.

I run a 2/3/4/ split of Ponder, Mystical Tutor, and Brainstorm, respectively.

Pce,

--DC

I can see that. I'll try it out.

Another thing -- I was testing the Dreadstill matchup a few days back, and it is freakin rough. They pack a ludicrously annoying counterspell suite, improved by maindeck Stifle effects, backed by a significantly fast clock. Truly a nightmare of a matchup. How do you guys usually play it through? Resolved CB makes me facepalm every time.

Hanni
11-02-2008, 05:31 AM
Dreadstill is a hellacious matchup for all storm combo, as far as I know. Your best plan against them is to hope they don't have Dreadnought early, play enough Duress/Chant effects to push through either AN or IGG, and win from there. Don't expect the matchup to ever become positive, regardless of maindeck configuration or sideboarding. Sorry.

myselves
11-02-2008, 08:13 AM
Actually, I'd use it in addition to ponder. It's not decent, it's fantastic.
--DC


I participated with a TES Build with 4 Mystical Tutor in the Legacy Sideevent of the PT Berlin (anything among 110 and 120 participants). I finished 4-4, which was ridicoulus considered my Matchups.
Mystical was worse than anything else could have been.

Seriously, I've tested it in the Landstill and Thresh Matchups, where it wasn't great, but still okay (okay, it's really terific against Landstill and MUC, but that's it). The reason why it sucks here is (to repeat it one more time) that the intention of TES is to race hate, where other fastcombodecks like FT oder ANT are build to play around the hate.


To the tournament itself:

My MD was really standard, I just cut 1 Ponder, both Apes and anything (the 4th Mox I think) for 4 Mystical Tutor.
My SB was different, I ran Dark Confidant over Shusher (I exspected more Suicide than Thresh) and an Echoing Truth (one free slot, wohee)



Round 1 vs. Sligh - lost 1:2
Game 1 wasn't a problem, game 2 we both mull down to 6, I kept a hand with Petal, 2 Dark Ritual, 1 RoF, 1 Brainstorm and a CoB. I never see a tutor, so that a Figure of Destiny and Burn were able to rip my ass.
Game 3 I didn't have the solutions for 1 Ethersworn Canonist and a Chant, the second chant ist backbreakin' my last hope was a BS into Double Chant / Duress+Chant to get rid of his chant and don't die to Tarmobeatz. BS reveals redundant Tutors, after the Game he revealed me his hand with the 2nd Canonist.

Round 2 vs. Rock - win 2:0
Those games were never a problem.
I 'looped' over Iggy-Pop both games turn 2 and 3 I think

Round 3 vs. Survival - lost 1:2
Game 1 I win, he just has Birds+Bayou in play after he mulliganed down to 5 and I duressed him, so tried EtW and won.
Game 2 his disruption wasn't fun, I used Mystical Tutor to get another D.Ritual ( I don't know if this was a mistake, on the one side I was afraid of Therapy, let him grap nearly all my acceleration, on the other side there was a Cabal Ritual in my GY allready, so tutorin for this would have made me vulnerable to Extirpate, because he allready played a Therapy and flashbacked it I decided to search another Dark Ritual).
I passed my turn, he draw, grined an play Cabal Therapy. I was unable to rest from this and died to Teeg&Goyf.
Game 3 he got a fast Teeg, a play a Confi.
Since then I tried to play around, but his disruption always bought him time to beat me, after a few rounds my only chance was Burning Wish -> Grapeshot to get rid of Teeg, he has the 2nd one, so now I play Mystical Tutor ->Echoing Truth (there was one slot in the sideboard, and just cause I allready played Mysticals I decided to try it). But was unable to play it and combo of, so I wait to bounce him Teeg in his EoT, he drawed a card, grined and showed me the Thoughtseize, with Savannah+Forest open - GG

Round 4 vs ??? - lost

Round 5 vs. Eva Green - won 2:1
Game 1 EtW just shined and was rapin' him.
Game 2 he got a start with Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymm, I never recovered from this and Tarmogoyf slowly killed me.
Game 3 he put me under pressure with Tarmo and discard, lastly I tried D.Returns and as my last possibility it worked out gret and I won.

Round 6 vs. ??? - won

Round 7 vs. Imperial Painter (by ead) - loss 1:2
Hell yeah, everybody with a 5/x/x finish would receive 9 Booster, and now I either kick my teamdude out of prices or get kicked by him...
Game 1 I won, thanks to EtW.
Game 2 his 1st turn 3sphere was a timewalk 5 times and enabled him to beat me to death with Jaye and an Ape.
Game 3 he hast a 3rd Turn Kill, I've to trye D.Returns with only U floating after that, I fizzled.

Round 8 vs. Goblins - won 2:1
Game 1 was a 2nd Turnkill over Iggy.
Game 2 I hold a hand with double Mystical Tutor to kill him turn 3, he killed me turn 3 otP 8[
Game 3 was just AN->Win.


I don't know why I only finished 4-4, I think I didn't make any mistakes, but maybe I just shut my eyes to my own fault...

Bahamuth
11-02-2008, 09:40 AM
I think I didn't make any mistakes, but maybe I just shut my eyes to my own fault...

Especially for combo decks, mistakes tend to be be unnoticeable, but very important. Cantrip decisions, mulligans.... All very minor things you can easily do wrong without noticing.

Dark_Cynic87
11-03-2008, 02:42 PM
Here's what I use M. Tutor for. Oh, before I get into it, I'm going to say playstyle is very important for it to be of use. I'm a FT player normally, switching to this for a bit of a break every now and then, and it's my personal opinion that M. Tutor is a must in AdN TES. It's how I've played storm for a year, and it's one of my favorite cards for storm. It works for me. If it doesn't for you, don't play it. I just wanted to let people know that it DOES work, and it is good in many matchups (more than just the control MU's).

Ok, here's what I use M. Tutor for:

--Grab Chant, Accel., and most importantly, Ad Nauseam (I run it as a singleton).

--Post-AdN to grab anything I may need to win via (like I stated above) Manamorphose. I will say that it is often dead after AdN, but then again, so is Ponder/BS. At least for me...

--Draw out counterspells. EoT M. Tutor should be considered a must-counter. If you are simply using it as bait and have your combo in-hand and it does happen to resolve, I just grab a Chant or burning wish depending on the situation. When I'm goldfishing out against random irrelevant decks, I've been known to grab Manamorphose. Then, I manamorphose into manamorphose for an extra +1 storm count...

Here's a fairly common play I do:

Requirements: 1x Land, any 2x combo of LED/C. Rit/D. Rit capable of being cast of a single land (no LED+C. Rit, and no 2x C. Rit), M. Tutor.

Turn 1: Land, LED, go.
Eo their turn 1: M. Tutor==>AdN
Turn 2: Dark Rit, pop LED during Upkeep, Draw AdN and combo off.

Alternatively:
Turn 1: Land, go.
Eo their turn 1: M. Tutor ==>AdN
Turn 2: Play land #2, Chant, Rit, Rit, AdN.

I'm aware these are basic, but the principle is basic in itself. Also, this is a very straight-forward combo list that doesn't take a metric fuck-ton of skill to play in very many matchups (either that, or I'm lucky...).

Also, Manamorphose allows for you to go off with AdN without having a black mana accel, which is something SSG does not enable.

Pce,

--DC

Benie Bederios
11-03-2008, 04:32 PM
--Draw out counterspells. EoT M. Tutor should be considered a must-counter. If you are simply using it as bait and have your combo in-hand and it does happen to resolve, I just grab a Chant or burning wish depending on the situation. When I'm goldfishing out against random irrelevant decks, I've been known to grab Manamorphose. Then, I manamorphose into manamorphose for an extra +1 storm count...

Why? Why wouldn't you counter the tutored spell and make your opponent waste a drawstep.

BB

troopatroop
11-03-2008, 04:55 PM
Also, Manamorphose allows for you to go off with AdN without having a black mana accel, which is something SSG does not enable.

You keep throwing in these little snippets of merit for Manamorphose. Black acceleration is the most common form of accel in the deck, in fact there would be even more if you cut the card for Cabal Rituals. Also... Rainbow Lands?

Manamorphose allows you to go off without black mana acclerants. Okay? So you're saying... that if you're able to make a bunch of Red mana, but unable to make any Black mana, then Manamorphose can filter that mana into Black to play AdN. Goodness. The only situation I can think of where this is possible is where you're on one land and casting multiple Rite of Flames. Can you elaborate on this a bit? Perhaps provide realistic applications for this use?

ebbitten
11-03-2008, 07:30 PM
Why? Why wouldn't you counter the tutored spell and make your opponent waste a drawstep.

BB

I don't have nearly enough experiance with FT or any build of TES with mystical tutors to be able to say for sure but i think they would counter to stop you from being able to stock up on multiple chant effects.

badjuju
11-03-2008, 07:51 PM
I don't have nearly enough experiance with FT or any build of TES with mystical tutors to be able to say for sure but i think they would counter to stop you from being able to stock up on multiple chant effects.

With this logic, what's the difference between countering a Mystical Tutor + Orim's Chant versus countering two Orim's Chants?

It's pretty common knowledge not to counter setup tutors, but rather the devastating spell itself. They're losing card advantage by casting tutors, and in the case of Mystical, an entire draw step.

Jaiminho
11-03-2008, 08:43 PM
With this logic, what's the difference between countering a Mystical Tutor + Orim's Chant versus countering two Orim's Chants?

It's pretty common knowledge not to counter setup tutors, but rather the devastating spell itself. They're losing card advantage by casting tutors, and in the case of Mystical, an entire draw step.

Mostly, it depends on which counters your opponents have available. If you tap out for Mystical, it will bite a Daze. If they have enough mana to play those 2 Counterspells they have in hand, tutor might resolve, unless there is some Split Second card that will cripple them. You can't generalize ever, so saying Mystical Tutor is a must counter is kind of a misconception.

ebbitten
11-03-2008, 09:33 PM
With this logic, what's the difference between countering a Mystical Tutor + Orim's Chant versus countering two Orim's Chants?

It's pretty common knowledge not to counter setup tutors, but rather the devastating spell itself. They're losing card advantage by casting tutors, and in the case of Mystical, an entire draw step.

I think its if theyre holding counterspells that cost mana and wouldn't have enough to cast them all in the same turn? I'm really not sure, only guessing

loop
11-03-2008, 09:56 PM
I think its if theyre holding counterspells that cost mana and wouldn't have enough to cast them all in the same turn? I'm really not sure, only guessing
Well, this example was about Mystical EOT, so they won't get an untap anyway.

ebbitten
11-04-2008, 10:03 AM
Well, this example was about Mystical EOT, so they won't get an untap anyway.

if they expect it to be over a couple turns? not a very likely situation in any case.

Dark_Cynic87
11-04-2008, 02:05 PM
Why? Why wouldn't you counter the tutored spell and make your opponent waste a drawstep.

They don't know what's in your hand barring a Thoughtseize/Duress. They don't know what you are going to tutor for. In my opinion, this makes it a threat as I don't like to err in their favor, and I'd rather make them have to topdeck like Chuck Norris than let them hit Ad Nauseam backed up by double-chant. I normally use one tutor per game. When I do, it's for the last piece of my combo (Ad Nasueam 90% of the time), and if I grab chant then I have the combo already and am looking for protection, or I'm planning ahead and expecting counters (In this situation, it's a win/win for me as I'm looking for the mystical to hit a counter-If it doesn't, the chant will, and if not, I've won). This is normally the case when most people use M. Tutor as far as I've seen. In essence, you can often gain at least another turn by just countering Mystical Tutor.

This is all simply my philosophy as to how I play my deck, and also my experiences while being a storm player, and a thrash player against storm combo.


You keep throwing in these little snippets of merit for Manamorphose. Black acceleration is the most common form of accel in the deck, in fact there would be even more if you cut the card for Cabal Rituals. Also... Rainbow Lands?

Manamorphose allows you to go off without black mana acclerants. Okay? So you're saying... that if you're able to make a bunch of Red mana, but unable to make any Black mana, then Manamorphose can filter that mana into Black to play AdN. Goodness. The only situation I can think of where this is possible is where you're on one land and casting multiple Rite of Flames. Can you elaborate on this a bit? Perhaps provide realistic applications for this use?

When you talk theory of a deck, especially storm combo,you must realize that wierd situations happen all the time. Remember, you do have red mana accel, and most of the time you don't want to EtW, so burning wish into EtW becomes unacceptable since I'm talking about a situation with only red mana accel, especially if it is for a situation like Petal, Rite, Rite, Rite, Burning Wish-->ETW for 10 tokens. I would rather go Rite, Rite, Rite, Manamorphose, AdN and continue to win that turn.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that while black accel is the main kind of mana-ramp, it's important to keep in mind that red is also in the list. Isn't that the partly the theory that SSG speaks to in the first place? I see no reason not to maintain that mindset with Manamorphose.

Also, 10 lands is low, and while we do run a set of petal and several Mox, often you won't see more than one land before you AdN. According to basic math, it's 2 lands per every 10 cards. If you are on the play, that's 3 turns if no cantrips are played (I realize that isn't exactly logical, but I can't do the math any better; it's not my fort'e). I suppose if you brainstorm once, you see 11 cards total, and if you Ponder each time and shuffle and draw each time (showing you the most cards possible) you see something like 21 cards total, but 3 of those minimum are Ponder, so it's 17 cards to work with minus the land and 3 ponder. Also if you did this and the land you were using was a Gemstone Mine, you suddenly have to hit another land. I mention this because you say rainbow lands like it's a solve-all for the color-scheme. Also keep in mind that while we do win quickly, a Wasteland slows you down more than anyone seems to give it credit for.

As for my "snippets of merit" for Manamorphose (which are admittedly bountiful even in this post): I think it's a good card that has served me well. It's also my opinion that people not hugely invested in storm tend to take the word of those who are (Emidln, Bryant, etc.), and while storm combo tends to mostly end in a Tendrils ftw, how people get there often varies. Playstyle and thought process are important parts of playing storm. What works for some doesn't for others, as they think different. If you don't like Manamorphose, don't play it, but it is an acceptable card for a combo list, especially one that runs Mystical Tutor and red mana accel.

Pce,

--DC

troopatroop
11-04-2008, 04:10 PM
When you talk theory of a deck, especially storm combo,you must realize that wierd situations happen all the time. Remember, you do have red mana accel, and most of the time you don't want to EtW, so burning wish into EtW becomes unacceptable since I'm talking about a situation with only red mana accel, especially if it is for a situation like Petal, Rite, Rite, Rite, Burning Wish-->ETW for 10 tokens. I would rather go Rite, Rite, Rite, Manamorphose, AdN and continue to win that turn.

Wierd situations don't happen all the time. That's like... a direct contradiction. Both of the situations that you stated for Manamorphose mana fixing into Black for AdN required 3 Rite of Flames. Drawing 1 is about 40%, and that gets exponentially smaller for multiple cards. Yes, I have drawn three Rite of Flames before, but I have never drawn three Rite of Flames AND wished that one of the other cards in my hand were a Manamorphose to cast an AdN because I couldn't come up with any black. That is a grossly unlikely situation to come across. You criticized SSG for not being able to fix mana, but can't come up with a probable situation for it to matter. SSG gives you +1 mana. I like that alot better.

Playing Manamorphose isn't a playstyle decision. You cannot justify the card, especially in a storm combo deck that way, because there is usually a correct way to play your hand out that has nothing to do with playstyle.

You blind your decision based on the fact that you run Mystical Tutor and more Red Rituals, but the synergy with those cards and situations where the card will win you the game will happen much less often than situations where holding Manamorphose will STOP you from winning the game. The inconsistencies of the card will come out much more often than its positives. Playing a card that nets you mana will give you a much stronger deck. Manamorphose isn't terrible, but it's pretty clearly suboptimal. In a weak metagame you will get by playing it, but theres no sense in not playing the strongest deck possible.

BreathWeapon
11-04-2008, 04:19 PM
Basically what I'm trying to say is that while black accel is the main kind of mana-ramp, it's important to keep in mind that red is also in the list. Isn't that the partly the theory that SSG speaks to in the first place? I see no reason not to maintain that mindset with Manamorphose.

--DC

No, Simian Spirit Guide was added because it's 0 mana acceleration, which protects the deck from Daze and produces R for Rite of Flame, Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens after Diminishing Returns (or now after Ad Nauseam). Manamorphose is just an ugly, unpredictable card in this deck that often reverse Time Walks you against Daze and is a total blank after the Draw 7. The two cards literally have absolutely nothing to do with each other and you can't use SSG as pseudo justification for sub-optimal mana filters.

Edit: Damn, beaten to the punch.

Dark_Cynic87
11-04-2008, 07:52 PM
Wierd situations don't happen all the time. That's like... a direct contradiction.

Nonsense. It's not unbelievable to draw 3x Rite of Flames in within roughly 1/3 of your library, especially when the deck gets shuffled 1-3 times.

If my memory serves me right, there's at least one other person on this thread that plays 2x Manamorphose in their list. I wish that person would chip in...

I don't have all the time in the world to come up with situations, all I know is that it's served me well. Upsides include mana-fixing, cantriping, free +1 storm count, -1 lifeloss to AdN compared to SSG. Downsides: Not free mana to cast a RoF off of or to waylay a daze and is basically a filler slot after a draw-7 (I disagree, but I'll digress).


You blind your decision based on the fact that you run Mystical Tutor and more Red Rituals, but the synergy with those cards and situations where the card will win you the game will happen much less often than situations where holding Manamorphose will STOP you from winning the game.

It's a legitimate card choice. As to whether or not you choose to play it is up to you. And playstyle is important as well as a legitimate argument. I put an IT in my SB so I can wish into it and pop my LED's in response to IGG a win OR to grab Ad Nauseam. I bet you don't, and I do this because I am most happy and comfortable with it after extensive testing. This speaks to my playstyle. And holding a Manamorphose has certainly never LOST me a game. I haven't been in a position yet where if my 'morphose would have been an SSG I would have won the game; yes, Daze included. You should always play around daze; bad judgement is often the reason Daze counters something, not running one card over another.

Running M. Tutor and extra red rituals are all valid points in favor of running manamorphose.

I'll quit using it when it stops serving me well. I'm not trying to convince you guys to use it, so let's drop it. I'm going to keep using it, but I don't like the banter, and no one's mind is going to change here, so it's a moot point anyway.

Pce,

--DC

Bryant Cook
11-04-2008, 09:46 PM
What's the point of asking for advice on a decklist with suboptimal choices then? Most people including myself don't like Manamorphose, Desperate Ritual, and Mystical tutor. SSG, Cabal Ritual, and Ponder/Duress are just better choices. Many people agree with me and have results to prove that these choices are better.

Dark_Cynic87
11-05-2008, 02:39 PM
I'm not sure I ever asked for help. I was simply sharing my experiences, and then suddenly people just started jumping all over my statements. I suppose I don't care if you guys like any of those cards, but they have been working for me and I wanted to discuss and share my success. I assumed that's what the thread was for. My mistake. I guess conformity trumps everything else...

I'm through with this thread. I'll continue to play my list and have much success in doing so, but I'll not continue posting on this thread as nothing constructive ever comes out of it unless Bryant suggests it and you guys adhere to it simply because of his recommendation.

Back to the FDDT thread I go.

--DC

troopatroop
11-05-2008, 03:06 PM
I'm not sure I ever asked for help. I was simply sharing my experiences, and then suddenly people just started jumping all over my statements. I suppose I don't care if you guys like any of those cards, but they have been working for me and I wanted to discuss and share my success. I assumed that's what the thread was for. My mistake. I guess conformity trumps everything else...

I'm through with this thread. I'll continue to play my list and have much success in doing so, but I'll not continue posting on this thread as nothing constructive ever comes out of it unless Bryant suggests it and you guys adhere to it simply because of his recommendation.

Back to the FDDT thread I go.

--DC

Don't take it personally. We're not attacking you, we're attacking the ideas, because that's the only way to promote improvement. I'm leaving the issue alone, because as you said, noones mind is going to change on the issue, but don't insult all of us by saying that nothing constructive ever comes out of this thread. Your card choices are nothing new and innovative. They are cards that have been tried and disliked already. If you'll check the first post, there are a list of cards that have filtered in and out of the deck. This deck has changed so much over the last year or so, and you speak great ignorance when you say that nothing constructive ever happens here. If there was a new card printed that fits into the deck (Ad Nauseam) or some beautiful new card interaction discovered, then of course we would play around with it. Right now, Bryant has what he believes is the strongest list possible at the current moment. I don't adhere to it because he said so. I adhere to it because in theory and in testing it works the best. Talking down to us about conformity only enforces the idea in my mind that you're missing the point alltogether. Magic isn't about building your own deck. It's about winning. Play to win. You're having great success because the deck is busted, not because you play with those changes. You can thank Bryant for that too.

Dark_Cynic87
11-05-2008, 09:39 PM
First off, I'll thank Brandon Adams (Emidln), as he's the one who came up with FT, and in my opinion is the better storm deck with better matchups against more DTB and control.



Your card choices are nothing new and innovative. They are cards that have been tried and disliked already. If you'll check the first post, there are a list of cards that have filtered in and out of the deck.


Mystical Tutor and Manamorphose were both tested and dismissed pre-AdN. Since the release of AdN, the theory of this deck has changed drastically; it's much less blind luck and much more Dark Confidant on meth on meth. Retesting is necessary, and while I've never t8ed at a tournament (having no legacy tourneys around here) with storm, I play with my buddies, who do have competetive lists (TES, Ichorid, Dragon Stompy, Thresh) and I win extremely consistantly, and believe that my opinion, testing, and thoughts have merit. I'm suggesting you retest. You too, Bryant.

I'll ask you to be honest with your answer for this next question:

Have you tested my list?

Pce,

--DC

emidln
11-05-2008, 09:44 PM
For what it's worth, I played 3x Mystical Tutor and 4x Street Wraith in my personal TES builds pre-adn and was completely blown away by its power. Nobody else ever seemed to pick up those changes. I don't think I ever had good results from Mystical Tutor without Top or Street Wraith in TES though. (And yes, I do have a fetchland-based TES list playing SDT, Ad Nauseam, and Mystical Tutor.)

BreathWeapon
11-05-2008, 10:13 PM
First off, I'll thank Brandon Adams (Emidln), as he's the one who came up with FT, and in my opinion is the better storm deck with better matchups against more DTB and control.





Mystical Tutor and Manamorphose were both tested and dismissed pre-AdN. Since the release of AdN, the theory of this deck has changed drastically; it's much less blind luck and much more Dark Confidant on meth on meth. Retesting is necessary, and while I've never t8ed at a tournament (having no legacy tourneys around here) with storm, I play with my buddies, who do have competetive lists (TES, Ichorid, Dragon Stompy, Thresh) and I win extremely consistantly, and believe that my opinion, testing, and thoughts have merit. I'm suggesting you retest. You too, Bryant.

I'll ask you to be honest with your answer for this next question:

Have you tested my list?

Pce,

--DC

There's definitely some lee way for Mystical Tutor in the Ponder slot given the synergy between Mystical Tutor, Ad Nauseam and Lion's Diamond, but I can assure you Manamorphose is a ridiculously bad card in TES no matter what you've seen.

Personally, I don't think Mystical Tutor is necessary, or achieving what your one drops are intended for. You want card parody and you want to find your second land, Mystical Tutor is only really good at finding business and that's simply not what you're looking for in the aggro-control match ups.

And yes, I tested the card way before you brought it up, and no, I'm probably the last person who sides with Bryant on the exact configuration of TES.

Dark_Cynic87
11-06-2008, 12:24 AM
Breathweapon: A statement like "I can assure you Manamorphose is a ridiculously bad card in TES no matter what you've seen" holds no merit whatsoever as the exact opposite statement could be made about what you've seen. This is because while there's a truth, there's no absolute way to prove what that truth is because of this exact statement. I'm pretty sure there's a fallacy for this, but I'm a tad rusty on my philosophy.

@ Emidln: I'm not talking about running M. Tutor without a cantrip. I'm using the best cantrip for the configuration that has considerable synergy with other parts of the list. Street Wraith is straight up horrible synergy with AdN. Top could be okay I suppose, but doesn't have the synergy with this list that it does in FDDT. That makes Manamorphose the better choice, and I do think that the free cantripping mana fixer that adds +1 Storm is better than a sneak-through from daze and starting a mana-ramp. I think it's an argument between Manamorphose and Ponder before it's an argument between 'morphose and SSG. I suppose I could try Top, but I don't think it will be as good. In the control matchups possibly, but even then it's more mana intensive and much less productive as no shuffle effects other than ponder are run.

You don't need SSG after Ad Nauseam. You have 6x 0cc artifact mana cards (4 Petal//2 Mox or more) to start your mana ramp again IF you didn't blow up an LED in response to your AdN in the first place. Furthermore, you most likely can still make your land drop for the turn.

Mystical Tutor is not -just- for business spells. It's central purpose is for me to find either my Ad Nauseam or a Chant, sure, but it's also capable of finding a Wish or an IT, as well as any non-artifact mana accel. Most importantly, however, you guys clearly think that countering a Mystical Tutor is bad, and that it should and always does resolve, making it a clear-cut way of finding my singleton AdN, which hugely cuts down on my pain from AdN (an additional could be run in the SB, but I don't; I don't need to). Not hitting 2x other AdN is awesome, and frankly I find it to be one of the major reasons my build works as well as it does. Another relevant point is that I run six points less of lifeloss from an AdN than you guys do via Mystical Tutors and Manamorphose instead of 2x more AdN and 2x SSG.

What the crap do you look for in the Aggro-Control matchup? I look for chants...that's just me. Game 2, I look for those and Shushers. M. Tutor doesn't work for Shushers, but neither does any other relevant tutor in our format.

Personally I don't see how Mystical Tutor isn't being considered an auto-include these days. I can understand you guys not liking Manamorphose, and that's fine, but I don't see how you can justify no Mystical Tutors and multiple AdN. How does that make sense to anyone?

I'm open to better cantrips in place of Manamorphose to test, but I haven't been able to find any. I'll even test -2 Manamorphose +2 Ponder to run the full set, but I really have my doubts, and will not be using SSG. It's an unneccessary slot for the list. Daze withstanding.

I at least appreciate Emidln for chipping in on the Mystical Tutor argument. How often do you take 10 to the dome from 2 cards off of an AdN, breath? I hardly ever do. I don't have a percentage, but I assure you it's not any above 18%.

Pce,

--DC

Jaiminho
11-06-2008, 01:15 AM
Most importantly, however, you guys clearly think that countering a Mystical Tutor is bad, and that it should and always does resolve, making it a clear-cut way of finding my singleton AdN, which hugely cuts down on my pain from AdN (an additional could be run in the SB, but I don't; I don't need to).

Not getting Mystical Tutor countered, while your opponent has the means and resources to counter the spell you tutored for, is very bad. That's when running a singleton Nauseam get's you a kick in the balls. Might it get countered, you will have to rely on much worse enablers along with the card advantage you just got yourself from that resolution. Mystical Tutor has to be played carefully and it kinda demands a more controllish build. It's good in FT because FT is slower, can make full use of its silver bullets, can combo without using the graveyard with a relatively small number of cards in hand and with low life, et caetera... all because that's how it was built. TES exploits the scarcity of answers at the early turns, while still pressing the opponent at the wall in the following turns because of very high threat density. Allowing yourself some card disadvantage for an unneeded versatility ends up being a bad deal. That versatility is unneeded because you already have Burning Wish. It won't grab you Nauseam, but it will grab you any win conditions, every other enabler and a handful of answers that will not occupy the maindeck. This has been previously explained in this thread and it's not going to change because Nauseam was printed.



What the crap do you look for in the Aggro-Control matchup? I look for chants...that's just me. Game 2, I look for those and Shushers. M. Tutor doesn't work for Shushers, but neither does any other relevant tutor in our format.

This deck has no answers for a resolved Counterbalance in the maindeck. Holding youself back because of the delay and card disadvantage Mystical Tutor provides you won't help with this subject.

BreathWeapon
11-06-2008, 01:18 AM
I really don't think you understand the premise TES was built on and you're just running something geared towards a T2/3 fundamental turn instead of what post Ad Nauseam TES should be. If you're running 1 Ad Nauseam and 4 Mystical Tutor, you're still 100% reliant on tutor -> bomb instead of bomb, which is shaving a turn off your clock.

The problem with Mystical Tutor is that it wins big when it doesn't matter and loses small when it does matter, TES is more sensitive to card disadvantage and top decking than ANT or DDFT because it relies on speed. I don't think it's necessarily a bad choice, but I don't see how "Burning Wish light" is really solving problems. 4x Ad Nauseam is amazing because it makes TES faster and resilient to 1cc counters, which meets the biggest design imperatives of the archetype.

I so don't give a shit about the number of times I take 10 to the dome compared the number of times turn 1 Ad Nauseam GGs my opponents. And personally, I think Orim's Chant and Vexing Shusher are worse than Duress and Blasts now that we don't have to protect tutor chains instead of 1 card bombs.

badjuju
11-06-2008, 03:27 AM
Sorry to swerve off a bit, but could you grace us with your list BreathWeapon? I don't think I've ever seen the updated version, just wanted to take a peek.

BreathWeapon
11-06-2008, 05:13 AM
Sorry to swerve off a bit, but could you grace us with your list BreathWeapon? I don't think I've ever seen the updated version, just wanted to take a peek.

Sure,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens/Ill Gotten Gains
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hull Breach
1 Thought Seize
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyro Blast

Nothing ground breaking, I swap between ETW and IGG for the alternative IT target and the on color disruption makes the deck less mana intensive, Duressing on turn 1 and then Ad Nauseam turn 2 is a lot easier than Orim's Chant + Ad Nauseam turn 2 and post board you've got up to 12 cards that keep Counterbalance off the board.

matelml
11-06-2008, 05:29 AM
At Dark Cynic: while I agree Mystical Tutor used to be so bad that I find it unlikely it's good enough now, I am starting to get interested. I think I'll test it, but in theory, it shouldn't be good. It indeed makes the deck much slower, which doesn't look good for this particular version of ToA combo.

Don't think nobody disagrees with Bryant and everyone attacks anything new. I don't agree with Bryants lists many times, as does he, beause I see him changing around cards a lot. Though it is weird that many people say "Bryants list is best" and then the next day he has a different list and they still say it. But ofcourse there are reasons why certain things are accepted and standard. Usually they are better than the many new suggestions, so it's fair to be sceptical, although things should be given a chance, otherwise this thread doesn't have much purpose.

Dark_Cynic87
11-06-2008, 10:20 PM
At Dark Cynic: while I agree Mystical Tutor used to be so bad that I find it unlikely it's good enough now, I am starting to get interested. I think I'll test it, but in theory, it shouldn't be good. It indeed makes the deck much slower, which doesn't look good for this particular version of ToA combo.

Don't think nobody disagrees with Bryant and everyone attacks anything new. I don't agree with Bryants lists many times, as does he, beause I see him changing around cards a lot. Though it is weird that many people say "Bryants list is best" and then the next day he has a different list and they still say it. But ofcourse there are reasons why certain things are accepted and standard. Usually they are better than the many new suggestions, so it's fair to be sceptical, although things should be given a chance, otherwise this thread doesn't have much purpose.

That's the probably the most sensible argument I've heard on this thread for a while. I may be a bit defensive to the scrutiny, but if you will look back over the last few pages, whether they think so or not, the second I mentioned 'Morphose and M. Tutor I got e-mugged. I think that the questions I'm putting forth as well as my stubborness to roll over and go with the flow is actually a very important piece of figuring out the AdN puzzle. I think the number of them is really touchy, and it's not an auto-4x of. Also, the deck plays a bit different now, and choices change a little bit here and there. This is how it goes, and I believe that while it's getting a bit heated, it's what the deck needs--Debate.

Here's my question to those of you running more than one AdN, and definitely a question to those running 4x along with a Tendrils and IGG/EtW--

How often is AdN in multiples actually better than a D. Returns? I understand that you will draw more than 7 cards, but how many do you draw on average and more importantly, how often do you have to stop because of chances of losing before you actually have everything you need?

Next, winning fast is important for a non-control storm list. The later the game gets, the more relevent the rest of their deck becomes. This includes but is not limited to threats, counterspells, CB/Top, Duress//Thoughtseize, and Chant. The more time you give them, the more of these they will hit. This (read: TES) is a non-control storm list, pure and simple. In fact, people used to say that it was better than FT based on this principle alone. Mystical Tutor does in fact make this faster, and in many situations this absolutely counts.

Finally, what's with the 4x SSG in your list, Breath? Shocking...

Pce,

--DC

badjuju
11-06-2008, 10:55 PM
Here's my question to those of you running more than one AdN, and definitely a question to those running 4x along with a Tendrils and IGG/EtW--

How often is AdN in multiples actually better than a D. Returns? I understand that you will draw more than 7 cards, but how many do you draw on average and more importantly, how often do you have to stop because of chances of losing before you actually have everything you need?

Next, winning fast is important for a non-control storm list. The later the game gets, the more relevent the rest of their deck becomes. This includes but is not limited to threats, counterspells, CB/Top, Duress//Thoughtseize, and Chant. The more time you give them, the more of these they will hit. This (read: TES) is a non-control storm list, pure and simple. In fact, people used to say that it was better than FT based on this principle alone. Mystical Tutor does in fact make this faster, and in many situations this absolutely counts.

--DC

I currently run 3 AdN and have been happy with the number. Maybe it's just me, but I usually draw between 14-21 cards (this isn't made up, I actually note the number of cards I draw each time). I almost always stop @ 5 life, but of course there are tons of factors that go into this decision making:

-Have I already drawn what I need to win?
-Is it worth it to take the risk? ie, will I die next turn at the hands of my opponent as a result of performing or not performing this action?
-What are the chances of hitting another AdN, IGG, SSG, or Tendrils?
-Have I played a land yet? In other words, if I didn't draw a Gemstone, Orchard, or Paradise, will I have enough life to draw more then play and use City of Brass?

As for how often I stop before I have everything I need before winning...my answers will be different depending on the situation. I've goldfished the list several hundred times already and played a handful of matches. If I've taken a significant amount of damage from beats or brass beforehand, I generally try and use alternative methods to victory, but there have been desperate times where I tried to AdN at a fairly low life-total. Those never end well lol. If I'm goldfishing or playing against a deck that doesn't put pressure on my life-total, I rarely ever stop because I flip too much damage. I can't give you a relative number because I honestly don't remember every time, but it just doesn't happen that often that I'd feel the need to change the deck in any way.

I haven't tested Mystical Tutor enough to say anything about that, but goldfishing showed promise for me as I've stated in another post. The same problems and advantages that have all been mentioned before I felt firsthand while trying the card, so that's all I have on that for now.

BreathWeapon
11-06-2008, 10:57 PM
4xSSG is shocking? I find 4 0cc sources of R pretty fucking phenomenal in a deck that's resolving a 5c bomb and then looking for SSG -> Rite of Flame(s) to wish for a win con. There's nothing really shocking about it, Cabal Ritual is terrible and that slot is dedicated to mana acceleration, I can't think of a card I'd rather use.

Dark_Cynic87
11-06-2008, 11:21 PM
I was just noting that earlier (read: past few days) it was stated that black was the dominant mana accel, which made 'Morphose extremely lackluster (one of the reasons stated). However, in your list it seems black has taken the back seat... Any problem finding black to AdN?

Also, has anyone tested IT in the board as a wish target? I'm suprised I didn't really get slammed for that one, so now I'm going to test my luck.

Pce,

--DC

BreathWeapon
11-07-2008, 12:05 AM
I was just noting that earlier (read: past few days) it was stated that black was the dominant mana accel, which made 'Morphose extremely lackluster (one of the reasons stated). However, in your list it seems black has taken the back seat... Any problem finding black to AdN?

Also, has anyone tested IT in the board as a wish target? I'm suprised I didn't really get slammed for that one, so now I'm going to test my luck.

Pce,

--DC

Black hasn't taken a back seat, SSG and Duress are what let me resolve Ad Nauseam because I'm not tapping a land to cast Rite of Flame and Orim's Chant, it's essentially accomplishing the same goal except I'm not running sub-par 2cc accelerants or mana filters.

The combinatorics are kind of difficult to articulate, shuffle it up and you'll see what I mean.

Dark_Cynic87
11-07-2008, 12:49 AM
Other than spell snare (and that's just a stupid play for them), I don't see how 4x 3cc spells are better than 4x 2cc spells other than the free mana, at least not when AdN'ing...what's your list's avg. cmc (I'm pretty sure every AdN player knows his or hers by now)?

I will throw it together, but I'm not expecting any miracles...Maybe I'll be pleasantly suprised...

Pce,

--DC

BreathWeapon
11-07-2008, 10:21 AM
Other than spell snare (and that's just a stupid play for them), I don't see how 4x 3cc spells are better than 4x 2cc spells other than the free mana, at least not when AdN'ing...what's your list's avg. cmc (I'm pretty sure every AdN player knows his or hers by now)?

I will throw it together, but I'm not expecting any miracles...Maybe I'll be pleasantly suprised...

Pce,

--DC

The difference between 3 damage for SSG and 2 damage for C.Ritual is negligible compared to the difference between a "0cc" accelerant and a 2cc accelerant, the number of cards you have to draw before you draw 1B worth of mana is a lot more than the number of cards you have to draw with "0cc" accelerants because you're looking for cards that start the ritual chain more than you're looking for cards that add to the ritual chain.

Protecting yourself from Daze and pulling R out of your ass for REB are also a big deal, not to mention C. Ritual is a target for Daze and Spellsnare and it's more effective than you give it credit for.

I think you're obsessed with life loss, if you lose to life loss than odds are you weren't going to win the game regardless, I'd run Tinder Wall before I'd run C. Ritual.

Bryant Cook
11-07-2008, 11:36 AM
The difference between 3 damage for SSG and 2 damage for C.Ritual is negligible compared to the difference between a "0cc" accelerant and a 2cc accelerant, the number of cards you have to draw before you draw 1B worth of mana is a lot more than the number of cards you have to draw with "0cc" accelerants because you're looking for cards that start the ritual chain more than you're looking for cards that add to the ritual chain.

Protecting yourself from Daze and pulling R out of your ass for REB are also a big deal, not to mention C. Ritual is a target for Daze and Spellsnare and it's more effective than you give it credit for.

I think you're obsessed with life loss, if you lose to life loss than odds are you weren't going to win the game regardless, I'd run Tinder Wall before I'd run C. Ritual.

Cabal Ritual functions as 2x more LED's when we have Threshold. I don't think you understand this, they're also amazing when in comes to recovery. I've gone off turn 1 (Stopped), turn 2 Draw Nauseum, Turn 3 CRitual -> win. The power of the card is good. It also adds BB for Nauseum, unlike SSG. Both have thier merit's however, I believe they both have different functions and roles. Which is why we should be playing both.

EDIT:WOOO! DTW..again.

Phoenix Ignition
11-07-2008, 12:32 PM
So after looking at Breathweapon's decklist I got to thinking... why do people like Orim's Chant over Duress to begin with. I know Bryant's list has both, but why not 4 duress and cut down on the chants?

The way I see it, duress is going to help you much more by: Getting rid of the counterbalance/top in their hand before they get the chance to play it, let you see their hand so you know to play around it, pull out that counterspell (or they might counter it and you won't know what their hand is, but I usually assume I'm safe to go off if I pull a FoW + blue card out of their hand, and this really has the same result as them countering your chant).

Against a mirror, it is just slightly worse, since Chanting them halfway through a combo is usually going to get rid of 3 or more of their cards while duress only grabs one.

Also, the cost of duress is black which is obviously sometimes easier to get through your accel.

Any thoughts on this?

socialite
11-07-2008, 12:36 PM
So after looking at Breathweapon's decklist I got to thinking... why do people like Orim's Chant over Duress to begin with. I know Bryant's list has both, but why not 4 duress and cut down on the chants?

The way I see it, duress is going to help you much more by: Getting rid of the counterbalance/top in their hand before they get the chance to play it, let you see their hand so you know to play around it, pull out that counterspell (or they might counter it and you won't know what their hand is, but I usually assume I'm safe to go off if I pull a FoW + blue card out of their hand, and this really has the same result as them countering your chant).

Against a mirror, it is just slightly worse, since Chanting them halfway through a combo is usually going to get rid of 3 or more of their cards while duress only grabs one.

Also, the cost of duress is black which is obviously sometimes easier to get through your accel.

Any thoughts on this?

It shuts off multiple agents of interruption. Chant has infinite uses. Also in regards to combo protection what is the point of taking a piece of disruption if you are going to combo that turn anyway, game is over.

J.V.
11-07-2008, 12:39 PM
So after looking at Breathweapon's decklist I got to thinking... why do people like Orim's Chant over Duress to begin with. I know Bryant's list has both, but why not 4 duress and cut down on the chants?

The way I see it, duress is going to help you much more by: Getting rid of the counterbalance/top in their hand before they get the chance to play it, let you see their hand so you know to play around it, pull out that counterspell (or they might counter it and you won't know what their hand is, but I usually assume I'm safe to go off if I pull a FoW + blue card out of their hand, and this really has the same result as them countering your chant).

Against a mirror, it is just slightly worse, since Chanting them halfway through a combo is usually going to get rid of 3 or more of their cards while duress only grabs one.

Also, the cost of duress is black which is obviously sometimes easier to get through your accel.

Any thoughts on this?
So after reading your post I got to thinking, why do people make suggestions without testing? ...anyways, excessive testing has shown that Orim's Chant is without doubt the best protection in legacy storm, if it resolves you can combo unhithered and at worst it ALWAYS draws a counter. Duress doesn't protect an IGG loop, it also doesn't deal with your opponent holding brainstorm with a top in play allowing them to hide something like a stifle. Orim's Chant also doubles as a time walk against aggro unlike duress which is for the most part a dead card. Also on the note of it being easier to cast, this is true for the simple fact of chrome mox, but the fact is Lotus petal and all your lands tap for 5c, so it is almost never going to be a problem.

Phoenix Ignition
11-07-2008, 12:59 PM
So after reading your post I got to thinking, why do people make suggestions without testing?

Because the answers coming from someone who has playtested the deck for more hours than I have spent reading about it undoubtedly knows more about it than I do (I should hope). Answering people's questions like mine then allow for this thread to not be clogged with people who aren't as good at playing a deck suggesting you add trash in like metamorphose, or change the deck entirely by using mystical tutor.

We all know that people playtesting decks is a bad thing if they don't know how to play them correctly. Check out the Team America thread for proof of this...

I do plan on playtesting this deck, but god knows I'll suck at it (compared to people who have played it a lot) for the first 10 matches, and who wants playtesting results from a scrub at the deck?

J.V.
11-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Sorry to come off as a dick, that question has just been asked too many time, probably second only to Why isn't Mystical Tutor in here... but seriously Chant is the best protection, Duress is a good compliment though.

BreathWeapon
11-07-2008, 08:20 PM
Cabal Ritual functions as 2x more LED's when we have Threshold. I don't think you understand this, they're also amazing when in comes to recovery. I've gone off turn 1 (Stopped), turn 2 Draw Nauseum, Turn 3 CRitual -> win. The power of the card is good. It also adds BB for Nauseum, unlike SSG. Both have thier merit's however, I believe they both have different functions and roles. Which is why we should be playing both.

EDIT:WOOO! DTW..again.

Of course I understand Cabal Ritual + Threshold is great, but Cabal Ritual is a "late game" card in an "early game" deck. If I wanted to use Cabal Ritual I'd just play ANT, because the card is better suited for a slower paced deck. I don't want to include a sub-optimal card out of the gate because it may give me a chance to come back later, and if you're only running 1 or 2 it's just inconsistent at best.

@J.V.

I call BS, Duress > Orim's Chant because Ad Nauseam just powers thru' Spellsnare and Stifle, I have a much higher win % with Duress than Orim's Chant vs any deck with Counterbalance and I have tested the hell out of it against Threshold and Dreadstill.

badjuju
11-07-2008, 08:36 PM
Of course I understand Cabal Ritual + Threshold is great, but Cabal Ritual is a "late game" card in an "early game" deck. If I wanted to use Cabal Ritual I'd just play ANT, because the card is better suited for a slower paced deck. I don't want to include a sub-optimal card out of the gate because it may give me a chance to come back later, and if you're only running 1 or 2 it's just inconsistent at best.

Regardless of late game or early game, Cabal Ritual is still a +1 spell. Give or take some benefits between SSG and Cabal, and they're basically on the same level. They both provide +1 (barring Threshold), though Cabal Ritual may require you to have more initial mana sources, thus hurting your ability to cast multiple spells of different colors (ie. Ponder, Brainstorm, Rite of flame) in the same turn. Downsides to Simian Spirit Guide include that it doesn't add to the storm count if RFG'd, cannot be used in loops, and causes you to take one more damage when flipping it off Ad Nauseum.

I've never really had a problem with either.

GoldenCid
11-08-2008, 03:20 PM
Sure,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens/Ill Gotten Gains
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hull Breach
1 Thought Seize
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyro Blast


Some ignorant question...are EtW comparable to IGG??
Glimervoid not undiscovered/forbbinden???
4 pyroblast + 4 red elemental blast aren't too much??
Are 4 ad nausseaM indeed needed?? Manamorphose has no place in this deck??
The last one Orim's chant or Xantid swarm (none is in this list)??

BreathWeapon
11-09-2008, 01:34 PM
Some ignorant question...are EtW comparable to IGG??
Glimervoid not undiscovered/forbbinden???
4 pyroblast + 4 red elemental blast aren't too much??
Are 4 ad nausseaM indeed needed?? Manamorphose has no place in this deck??
The last one Orim's chant or Xantid swarm (none is in this list)??

All Ill Gotten Gains and/or Empty the Warrens does is prevent the opponent from naming Ad Nauseam and disabling Infernal Tutor.

I prefer Glimmervoid over Undiscovered Paradise because Undiscovered Paradise costs land drops, but Forbidden Orchards are reasonable alternatives.

Maybe, I've been experimenting with siding out some combination of Infernal Tutors, Ponders, Chrome Moxes and Simian Spirit Guides and then taking a "control" roll with 8 blasts, I haven't drawn any conclusions tho'.

I'd never run less than 4 of Ad Nauseam, the card is teh nutz.

Manamorphose is terrible, awful shit.

Duress > Orim's Chant, now that Ad Nauseam powers thru' Stifle and Spellsnare you get more utility from discarding Counterbalance than you do by "turning off" the soft counters. About the only time I regret using Duress instead of Orim's Chant is against decks running Counterspell, but Counterbalance is what GGs this deck more than any other card and it's what I care about most.

Vexing Shusher and Xantid Swarm are removal bait and don't stop Counterbalance from hitting the board, and if you haven't caught on I pretty much bet the house on stopping Counterbalance from hitting the board.

Bryant Cook
11-09-2008, 11:12 PM
I currently don't have time to test this, however, I'm hoping other people do. I've been looking for a slot to replace the 4th Chrome Mox, but I also wanted an answer for Gaddeck Teeg/Mage. I'm thinking about going back to 11 land and running a singleton Cabal Pit. Thoughts? I know it seems bad, but I'm sure it's better than it's initial impression.

socialite
11-09-2008, 11:19 PM
I currently don't have time to test this, however, I'm hoping other people do. I've been looking for a slot to replace the 4th Chrome Mox, but I also wanted an answer for Gaddeck Teeg/Mage. I'm thinking about going back to 11 land and running a singleton Cabal Pit. Thoughts? I know it seems bad, but I'm sure it's better than it's initial impression.

Wouldn't it be easier to just run a single Chain of Vapor? It doesn't require a land drop or threshold, it also adds 1 storm count while requiring the same mana investment. You also do not screw with the mana base, adding a single color nonbasic land just seems bad. I may be way off here Im no T.E.S expert, just saying it like it is.

Bryant Cook
11-09-2008, 11:22 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to just run a single Chain of Vapor? It doesn't require a land drop or threshold, it also adds 1 storm count while requiring the same mana investment. You also do not screw with the mana base, adding a single color nonbasic land just seems bad. I may be way off here Im no T.E.S expert, just saying it like it is.

Chain of Vapor is another option. Land drops don't really matter, because the deck runs so few. I don't think it's screwing with the manabase because you're simply adding a land in place of a 1/2 mana source. The argument for Cabal Pit is it's an answer and a mana source. Although Chain of Vapor isn't bad either, I was just thinking about an additional mana source.

Whit3 Ghost
11-09-2008, 11:57 PM
Slaughter Pact?

Free storm, can still be protected by Chants and stuff and you'll probably have the mana to upkeep it. It's also black for Chrome Mox and doesn't cost you a mana on your combo turn, just a card.

Bryant Cook
11-10-2008, 12:00 AM
Slaughter Pact?

Free storm, can still be protected by Chants and stuff and you'll probably have the mana to upkeep it. It's also black for Chrome Mox and doesn't cost you a mana on your combo turn, just a card.

Chain of Vapor adds more storm and can bounce Counterbalance. Chain of Vapor can make like 6-8 storm on it's own. This is making me want to play it so that the Grapeshot win is more likely.

Whit3 Ghost
11-10-2008, 12:08 AM
Chain of Vapor adds more storm and can bounce Counterbalance. Chain of Vapor can make like 6-8 storm on it's own. This is making me want to play it so that the Grapeshot win is more likely.
Yeah, Vapor is a much better answer to things as a whole, I'm definitely not gonna lie there. If it was a case of needing one answer to Teeg and nothing else, Pact is one of, if not your best option. However, with other things like Counterbalance in the format, and especially if your maindecking this answer, the Chain would be the way to go.

Also, Wipe Away. Too mana intensive?

Bryant Cook
11-10-2008, 12:12 AM
Yeah, Vapor is a much better answer to things as a whole, I'm definitely not gonna lie there. If it was a case of needing one answer to Teeg and nothing else, Pact is one of, if not your best option. However, with other things like Counterbalance in the format, and especially if your maindecking this answer, the Chain would be the way to go.

Also, Wipe Away. Too mana intensive?

Sucks with Ad Nauseum also. Eh, I'm not even sure what I want there. I kinda want a mana source, It may just stay as Mox.

rsaunder
11-10-2008, 10:14 AM
I know is FT I really don't care about mage post board when I have access to grapeshot as a kill. Given that you have the second kill available from the get-go as well as burning wish=>removal, doesnt this seems like a bit of a wasted slot? I mean, as much of a wasted slot as either a land or a bounce spell would be.

*makes gesture for "comboing off with grapeshot"*

BreathWeapon
11-10-2008, 11:42 AM
I know is FT I really don't care about mage post board when I have access to grapeshot as a kill. Given that you have the second kill available from the get-go as well as burning wish=>removal, doesnt this seems like a bit of a wasted slot? I mean, as much of a wasted slot as either a land or a bounce spell would be.

*makes gesture for "comboing off with grapeshot"*

Agreed, with out a way of tutoring for Chain of Vapor, it's simply a wasted slot. I don't see how Cabal Pit helps either since not producing gold mana and having to wait for Threshold turns Meddling Mage and co from an answer into a tempo tool.

Just stick with Burning Wish or run Thought Seize for Teeg.

Jaiminho
11-10-2008, 12:01 PM
I know is FT I really don't care about mage post board when I have access to grapeshot as a kill. Given that you have the second kill available from the get-go as well as burning wish=>removal, doesnt this seems like a bit of a wasted slot? I mean, as much of a wasted slot as either a land or a bounce spell would be.

*makes gesture for "comboing off with grapeshot"*

This deck can't use it's enablers with a Gaddock on the board, so you might simply be always short on storm for a 2nd kill.

EDIT - Yeah, untutorable answers also won't help much.

Bryant Cook
11-10-2008, 12:12 PM
Eh. It was just a thought, I'm not too satisfied with the 4th Mox slot. But I can't think of anything I'd rather have.

rsaunder
11-10-2008, 03:53 PM
Eh. It was just a thought, I'm not too satisfied with the 4th Mox slot. But I can't think of anything I'd rather have.What decks play Teeg/Mage MB? I'd have to think that SB answers would be enough.

As for the 4th Mox slot, what about just more disruption? Are you playing a full 4Chant+4Duress package?

Frenger
11-10-2008, 04:04 PM
What decks play Teeg/Mage MB? I'd have to think that SB answers would be enough.

As for the 4th Mox slot, what about just more disruption? Are you playing a full 4Chant+4Duress package?

While it's only seen in a few specific metagames, Funkbrew plays Teeg maindeck.

bigbear102
11-12-2008, 12:39 AM
Survival plays Teeg MD, and barely has enough discard to possibly slow down TES enough to get it into play.

kensook
11-15-2008, 02:10 AM
Hey guys, a question came up when I was play testing this deck against my friend. In a particular situation where you can generate 6 mana on turn two and you have Ad Nauseum in your hand and also both duress and orim's chant and you know that the opponent has counters in his deck, would you rather play duress or orim's chant? I would play duress, but I was wondering if you guys had different opinions.

Bryant Cook
11-15-2008, 02:28 AM
Why not Duress, see what they have. Next turn Chant -> win, if they have a 2nd disruption piece?

GoldenCid
11-15-2008, 08:37 AM
All Ill Gotten Gains and/or Empty the Warrens does is prevent the opponent from naming Ad Nauseam and disabling Infernal Tutor.

I prefer Glimmervoid over Undiscovered Paradise because Undiscovered Paradise costs land drops, but Forbidden Orchards are reasonable alternatives.

But if you have glimmervoid in your opening hand you can play a duress for example if you don't play a lotus petal to give life to glimervoid. In thius way you would lose a :0: spell for storm when you combo.


Vexing Shusher and Xantid Swarm are removal bait and don't stop Counterbalance from hitting the board, and if you haven't caught on I pretty much bet the house on stopping Counterbalance from hitting the board.

What SB would be apropiate?

Limz
11-15-2008, 09:18 AM
I just want to ask how you guys play diminishing returns. What are the specific conditions wherein wishing for returns is a solid choice?

KillemallCFH
11-15-2008, 09:32 AM
I just want to ask how you guys play diminishing returns. What are the specific conditions wherein wishing for returns is a solid choice?Hands where Burning Wish is your only business spell, and for one reason or another EtW won't win it are times when you'd find Diminishing Returns.

For example, say its turn 3 and you've Duress'd them to see they have an EtW answer in hand (let's say EE). Your hand is something like Wish, LED, Orim's Chant, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal with a couple Rainbow Lands on the board. You'd go Chant -> Mana -> Wish, saccing LED for Blue, find Diminishing, and (hopefully) win from there.

BreathWeapon
11-15-2008, 01:54 PM
But if you have glimmervoid in your opening hand you can play a duress for example if you don't play a lotus petal to give life to glimervoid. In thius way you would lose a :0: spell for storm when you combo.



What SB would be apropiate?

Losing 1 Storm is nothing compared to losing 1 land drop, and between 12 0cc artifacts and 8 1cc cantrips, I don't have a problem keeping Glimmervoid on the board.

If you don't like Glimmervoid, use Forbidden Orchard, because Undiscovered Paradise sucks hard core.

My SB is

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grape Shot
1 Hull Breach
1 Thought Seize
8 Red/Pyro Blasts

matelml
11-17-2008, 06:12 PM
Hi, I won the Dutch Legacy championship after losing in the finals last year and losing in the T8 at the Belgian championship with TES. There were 141 participants.

TES Team Nijmegen, by Matteus Lamers.

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Orim's Chant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Cabal Ritual
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Sb
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Shattering Spree

I went 9-1-1, losing from Threshhold and drawing against Giftsstill. Winning from GWB Enchantress, UG Madness, GBW Aggro Rock, AdN Fetchland Tendrils, Team America, UGB PainterFish, UGBW Meathooks, UGB Giftsstill and MUC. So I played against 32 FoW's:tongue: .
I am very happy with the list, including Sb, although I might add Xantid Swarm again.

Bryant Cook
11-18-2008, 01:04 AM
Congrats, but explain to me why 3 Burning Wish?

J.V.
11-18-2008, 01:12 AM
Congrats on the finish! One other question in addition to why only 3 Burning Wish... Why Tarnished Citadel? That seems terrible with AdN.

Bahamuth
11-18-2008, 02:29 AM
One Burning Wish was cut because we added 3 Ad Nauseum. Cutting acceleration would probably be worse, and we don't need 11 buisness spells, since the old list with 8 worked fine as well. Without the Wish, the deck becomes a little more consistent and doesn't draw into 3 tutors as often.

Yea, the Tarnished Citadel sucked. I think I lost because of it at least 2 times. It's just that we don't want to add any other of the options either. Orchard sucks when casting turn one EtW, and Paradise in multiples is extremely bad as well.

matelml
11-18-2008, 03:35 AM
Bahamuth pretty much got it, as he played the same list. I used to play 4 Tutors, 4 Wishes, 1 Plunge 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm. With Ad Nauseam, I took out 1 Wish, 1 Plunge and 1 Returns. So I added 2 bussiness for 1 crappy bussiness and 1 blank. I don't see why I would change the bussiness/mana ratio after adding Ad Nauseam. I considered the 4th Mox for AdN, but it's too bad to draw and not necessary for AdN. After AdN has been printed, Wish sucks. You can't reliably win on ToA with it. But 3 is needed for post-AdN combo.
The Citadel is bad, but the rest is worse. 2 Paradise most people agree on being bad and I use EtW too much for 2 Orchard. So it's the best 11th land.

Skullclamping
11-18-2008, 04:29 AM
Congrats on the finish!
Just... why are you using 3 EtW in the side? When do you use them?

Btw... I made top8 this saturday at the LCL, around 90 players. List should be online soon. I was using 2 Ponders main and 2 Duress, and the side was quite random (i was missing some slots).
Duress was prooved to work perfect there, for me. After board I was using 3 Duress, 3 Pyroblast and 2 Vexing Shusher against blue decks. I didnt have the 3rd Shusher, but I also thought about using Xantid Swarm again. I realized blue players don't know much of the deck, so they take creature hate out and put Echoings.

matelml
11-18-2008, 04:35 AM
Because it's my best chance against Counterbalance. I just lose when it comes down. I tested a lot against it and had no chance even with extra Duress/Pyroblast/Xantid Swarm, so I figured I'd just change my strategy. I board in 2-3 EtW along with 4 Duress, it worked fine for me. Yes, you lose if they draw EE, but those odds are smaller than normal losses. I do have to note that my odds didn't increase with those other cards in games against really good opponents in testing. I guess they will help against worse players.

GoldenCid
11-18-2008, 08:47 AM
The Citadel is bad, but the rest is worse. 2 Paradise most people agree on being bad and I use EtW too much for 2 Orchard. So it's the best 11th land.

Congrats!!!

Glimmervoid as mentioned above could be an option....or sucks too?

Mayk0l
11-18-2008, 09:14 AM
I think Glimmervoid is worth considering. Note that if you don't control an artifact, it gets sacrificed at the end of the turn, which, in the worst case scenario, still gives you a chance to use it. Especially with the addition of Ad Nauseum, now that Storming is easier than ever, it's not that bad to drop a LED, Mox or Petal early. Has anyone tested Glimmervoid? Did it increase your mulligan frequency?
Obviously, with Ad Nauseam, Tarnished Citadel seems subpar.

Typing this I realise all of what I said above will most likely already have been said earlier. My apologies if that's the case; I haven't followed the discussion that thoroughly the last two weeks.

badjuju
11-19-2008, 01:42 PM
Because it's my best chance against Counterbalance. I just lose when it comes down. I tested a lot against it and had no chance even with extra Duress/Pyroblast/Xantid Swarm, so I figured I'd just change my strategy. I board in 2-3 EtW along with 4 Duress, it worked fine for me. Yes, you lose if they draw EE, but those odds are smaller than normal losses. I do have to note that my odds didn't increase with those other cards in games against really good opponents in testing. I guess they will help against worse players.

I might want to chime in here as well. I've still been testing against my friend's Dreadstill and it's still a really terrible matchup. I hadn't even considered using multiple EtWs, but it seems like a viable choice since they don't always have access to Trinket Mage. If they do, at least you're stopping them from getting their clock. But then again, EtW still gets hurt from the Stifle effects, so I dunno...sounds pretty much as matelml says it is: a lose less situation :P

Bahamuth
11-19-2008, 01:55 PM
Cutting a land might even be better than that Citadel. I haven't been able to win protected with AdN in my goldfishing at all. Usually a turn 3 win will require 2-3 uses of the land. If you hit one 4/5 CC card, it's very likely you lose.

Yea, CB sucks. Same story for most combo decks. Duress is pretty good at fighting it, but doesn't do any wonders at all usually. EtW is quite good, but the plan loses to random EEs, which kinda sucks.

matelml
11-19-2008, 06:23 PM
I am pretty sure about the 11th land and find it very unlikely I will play less. 11 already seems on the low side, particularly if you NEED Chant protection or face a random Waste plus maybe a Daze or Fow. About the correct configuration I am not certain, but this seems best to me at the moment.

@Bahamuth: Do you mean you can't win protected with AdN in the cases you only have Citadel? Cause if you do: it's unlikely you will need to win on AdN, together with needing protection AND only having Citadel. In the cases it happens: yeah it sucks. But is it more likely than the other cases, with the other lands?

Glimmervoid seems horrible. I really want to be able to cantrip turn 1 and if you don't find an artifect it totally sucks and could easily cost you the game. I play 11 artifacts. Also making your opponents EE's and Deeds also nuke a land sounds bad. I'm not sure, but I haven't really had problems with Citadel yet.

Of course you don't want to lose to random EE's, but as long as the odds of "random" are positive, I'll take the chance. Usually if they have them, they only have like 2-3, although along with Brainstorms, Ponders,Tops and maybe Trinket Mages, but still if you board 4 Duress along with the EtW's and play it on turn 1-3 you are in a good position compared to just trying to win from CB.

BreathWeapon
11-19-2008, 08:56 PM
I am pretty sure about the 11th land and find it very unlikely I will play less. 11 already seems on the low side, particularly if you NEED Chant protection or face a random Waste plus maybe a Daze or Fow. About the correct configuration I am not certain, but this seems best to me at the moment.

@Bahamuth: Do you mean you can't win protected with AdN in the cases you only have Citadel? Cause if you do: it's unlikely you will need to win on AdN, together with needing protection AND only having Citadel. In the cases it happens: yeah it sucks. But is it more likely than the other cases, with the other lands?

Glimmervoid seems horrible. I really want to be able to cantrip turn 1 and if you don't find an artifect it totally sucks and could easily cost you the game. I play 11 artifacts. Also making your opponents EE's and Deeds also nuke a land sounds bad. I'm not sure, but I haven't really had problems with Citadel yet.

Of course you don't want to lose to random EE's, but as long as the odds of "random" are positive, I'll take the chance. Usually if they have them, they only have like 2-3, although along with Brainstorms, Ponders,Tops and maybe Trinket Mages, but still if you board 4 Duress along with the EtW's and play it on turn 1-3 you are in a good position compared to just trying to win from CB.

I guarantee you Citadel will fuck you more than Void, if the opponent keeps board removal in game 2 just for the off chance of sweeping artifacts or goblins he's just giving you DCA.

GoldenCid
11-19-2008, 08:56 PM
Apologies for my ignorance, but with Lamer's list how do we get rid of Ancient tomb ---> Chalice of the void (1) ???

What about gaddock teeg?? And awful enchantments??

Phoenix Ignition
11-19-2008, 09:18 PM
Apologies for my ignorance, but with Lamer's list how do we get rid of Ancient tomb ---> Chalice of the void (1) ???

What about gaddock teeg?? And awful enchantments??

Shattering spree kills chalice at 1, but gaddock teeg and awful enchantments seem indestructible with his list.

GoldenCid
11-19-2008, 09:26 PM
Shattering spree kills chalice at 1, but gaddock teeg and awful enchantments seem indestructible with his list.

But is countered....:eek: and you can't play replications....or can you??

J.V.
11-19-2008, 09:31 PM
You can, they are an additional cost and are placed on the stack, since they are not "played" Chalice never triggers for them.

Bahamuth
11-20-2008, 01:50 AM
I am pretty sure about the 11th land and find it very unlikely I will play less. 11 already seems on the low side, particularly if you NEED Chant protection or face a random Waste plus maybe a Daze or Fow. About the correct configuration I am not certain, but this seems best to me at the moment.

@Bahamuth: Do you mean you can't win protected with AdN in the cases you only have Citadel? Cause if you do: it's unlikely you will need to win on AdN, together with needing protection AND only having Citadel. In the cases it happens: yeah it sucks. But is it more likely than the other cases, with the other lands?

Glimmervoid seems horrible. I really want to be able to cantrip turn 1 and if you don't find an artifect it totally sucks and could easily cost you the game. I play 11 artifacts. Also making your opponents EE's and Deeds also nuke a land sounds bad. I'm not sure, but I haven't really had problems with Citadel yet.

Of course you don't want to lose to random EE's, but as long as the odds of "random" are positive, I'll take the chance. Usually if they have them, they only have like 2-3, although along with Brainstorms, Ponders,Tops and maybe Trinket Mages, but still if you board 4 Duress along with the EtW's and play it on turn 1-3 you are in a good position compared to just trying to win from CB.

It's not that unlikely. Chant protected IGG-loop is pretty rare compared to winning with Ad Nauseam. Usually you play a cantrip each game on average, and drawing the Citadel is also very possible.

I pretty much agree we need 11 land though. Who knows, perhaps a new rainbow land will be printed. Untill then, I'll probably still stick with Citadel.

Thing with the EtW is that you're still on a very fast clock. You need to resolve the EtW before the opponent hits turn 2, unless you cast a Duress the turn before. Still, EtW only shines in the beginning of the game. I find this to be really hard sometimes, especially with hands with both cantrips and protection.

Hopo
11-20-2008, 02:21 AM
Wouldn't Forbidden Orchard just be superior to Citadel? Only downside of Orchard would be the game lasting more than it should be and tokens beating you 1-2 dmg per turn. That is still less than taking 3 per turn from Citadel.

matelml
11-20-2008, 03:14 AM
Against decks with CotV, you can side SSpree in on the draw and Duress on the play. I haven't faced a Gaddock Teeg in a tournament yet (at least not in play), so I 'm not that worried about him. If you suspect him, use Chant in your opponents 2nd upkeep. The only annoying enchantment I know that is played is Rule of law, which isn't played much and can be answered by Duress game 2 and by winning on turn 1-2 or EtW on turn 1-2 game 1 (people almost never play it maindeck). Against decks with Rule of Law you can usually also use the upkeep Chant.
The moment you want to answer threats already in play, like Teeg, CotV and Rule of Law, you are already losing. If you are going to search for a Wish to remove it, usually you already lost. If they have any other disruption at all, it wont help.
I have found that wishable answers like Simplify and Grapeshot almost never help you win if there is a real threat. Although I do like Grapeshot because it can also help you combo. Also wishing Tranquility for CB is useless. It will almost never help.

It is acceptable to just lose from some very little played cards.

Yes, SSpree goes through CotV at 1, for 1 mana more. Also if there is a 3Sphere, you can destroy 3 arifacts for RRR with SSpree.

@ Bahamuth: it is pretty unlikely that you ONLY have Citadel, NEED to wait for protection possibilities and CAN'T use EtW. Of course it happens, but it's not that relevant. Also you need to substract the chance that you will still win with AdN.

Orchard isn't strictly superior because very long games, yes, but more importantly, it hinders the EtW win. If you tap it 3 times, EtW becomes much worse. Still it's probably better than Citadel, but if you play 2, you are pretty much excluded from the EtW win if you draw them and games against for example landstill you should probably mull if you have 2 Orchards. It might still be better to play 2 Orchards than 1 Citadel, but I can't tell.

Hopo
11-20-2008, 03:45 AM
The only annoying enchantment I know that is played is Rule of law
Besides Counterbalance, of course.


Orchard isn't strictly superior because very long games, yes, but more importantly, it hinders the EtW win. If you tap it 3 times, EtW becomes much worse. Still it's probably better than Citadel, but if you play 2, you are pretty much excluded from the EtW win if you draw them and games against for example landstill you should probably mull if you have 2 Orchards. It might still be better to play 2 Orchards than 1 Citadel, but I can't tell.

Of course, in the long game orchard begins to be sucky, but that's the problem basically with all the rainbow lands the deck uses. Gemstone mines tend to go to grave if you haven't won by turn three, City pings you the whole time, paradise screws land drops. Usually any combination of those is enough to not to lose, though. 10 lands with 1 orchard has worked pretty good. Overall, late game is bad.

ETW and Ad Nauseam is not the greatest combination, but I assume that nobody ends the AdN-combo with ETW except in very rare circumstances. With IGG-looping it becomes a lot better. Also, sometimes 10-12 first turn goblins get there if you feel safe to take that route and lack mana for fast AdN. Nowadays I hardly ever do that, unless I know for sure what's been played on the opposite side of the table. EE just blows.

And as mateLml said, Chant is golden to prevent opponent from playing problem cards on turn 2.

matelml
11-20-2008, 06:34 AM
Well, I meant the only annoying enchantment that can be answered by Wish, CB will almost never be stopable by Wish because if it is, you could probably combo through it or you will still lose to the tempoloss, because they had enough time to find other disruption.

Yes, I alsmost never use EtW after AdN, I almost never use it in combination of IGG either, I just use it when I have 6 mana and Tutor/Wish, or draw it, which becomes more likely since I play some to board in.

Hopo
11-20-2008, 06:54 AM
Which matchups generally lack the weapons of mass destruction to fight a token army? I wouldn't play ETW against anything blue, as they most likely can dig for an EE, keg, Echoing Truth or even Propaganda during the 2+ turns it takes to win with goblins.

Bahamuth
11-20-2008, 11:11 AM
Which matchups generally lack the weapons of mass destruction to fight a token army? I wouldn't play ETW against anything blue, as they most likely can dig for an EE, keg, Echoing Truth or even Propaganda during the 2+ turns it takes to win with goblins.

I always go for EtW on turn one for 10 or more if I can. It's usually certainly good enough to win the match. Remember your opponent can only play one Brainstorm to find his EE/whatever, which makes him see only 2 more cards.

Now that I think of it, there are hardly any matchups that lose to EtW turn 1 game 1. Would it be a good idea to play 2 mainboard, and board them out for the next games? I'm sure this has been tested by someone?

By the way, Matelml and I board out the IGG in the Thresh matchup (or any other with alot of counters). You do this too?

GoldenCid
11-20-2008, 03:33 PM
Now that I think of it, there are hardly any matchups that lose to EtW turn 1 game 1. Would it be a good idea to play 2 mainboard, and board them out for the next games? I'm sure this has been tested by someone?

By the way, Matelml and I board out the IGG in the Thresh matchup (or any other with alot of counters). You do this too?

Sincerely i wouldn't...it's just a card (an important one) that potentiates the combo...i'm not an expert but i wouldn't side it.

@Matelml: Correct me if i'm wrong but did you mean that wishing for getting rid of "something" is equal to lose or thaT your are definitively a going to?

And by the way is simian spirit guide indeed needed??? Could it be replaced for another card??

troopatroop
11-20-2008, 03:55 PM
And by the way is simian spirit guide indeed needed??? Could it be replaced for another card??

There aren't any other better options that add +1 mana. I don't like the card all that much, so I could see cutting it for more land or more Cabal Rituals.

jrp
11-20-2008, 05:40 PM
Part of the thing that's great about SSG is that it is an initial mana source, much like a land, mox, or petal. SSG (along with petals) greatly increase the chances of a protected turn 2 or 3 kill. I find myself often brainstorming/pondering on turn 1, and then wanting to win on turn 2. Frequently the issue is I need W for chant, B for Dark Ritual, and R for Rite or Wish; 2 lands alone cannot produce the intial color requirements of WBR. There will be situations where you need to have a petal/SSG (and less frequently a Mox can fulfill the role) or you will have to decide between waiting a turn for a protected kill or "just going for it" and losing to FoW, etc. Basically I'm a big fan of SSG, though I'd definitely play lotus petals 5 and 6 over them if I was allowed :)

Apex
11-20-2008, 06:22 PM
Is Forsaken City or Tendo Ice Bridge worth it as the 11th land? Ice Bridge can only be used once, but you can use the colourless in Ad Nauseam, Cabal Ritual, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Empty, etc, etc. So it cantrips on the first turn and then gets used for an extra mana later?

Forsaken City also has a steep cost (RFG a card from hand to untap it), but it's not 3 life. Seems a bit decent, and can even kinda move you closer to Hellbent with Infernal.

Tarnished Citadel just seems like it deals way too much damage @ 3 life per coloured mana.

troopatroop
11-20-2008, 06:40 PM
Glimmervoid would be a better call than all those imo.

kensook
11-20-2008, 07:39 PM
Glimmervoid or Tarnished Citadel would be better than Forsaken City or Tendo Ice Bridge. Chrome Mox + Forsaken City is too much card disadvantage. Tendo Ice Bridge, with this deck we often only have 1 or 2 lands in play and this deck is 4-colors. Even with petal, led, or mox, we need the 5-color mana from gold lands.

Dark_Cynic87
11-21-2008, 06:11 PM
I've been running 2x 'Void. They do fine, and I'm not a fan of Citadel. What a crap-shoot that card was. You already run 4x Cities, and that's painful enough. However, I don't know if I like more than one, so I've been doing some testing, and like this:

I'm going to run lands in this configuration, I think:

4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
1x Glimmervoid
1x Undiscovered Paradise
1x Forbidden Orchard

Pce,

--DC

kroelai
11-22-2008, 11:47 AM
I've been playing the second Paradise, but you NEVER want to have them both.
The other rainbow options just look even more worse than the second paradis, so is it an idea to play 1 Underground Sea?
As an 1 off it doesn't look that worse as the rest.

BreathWeapon
11-22-2008, 01:12 PM
I've been playing the second Paradise, but you NEVER want to have them both.
The other rainbow options just look even more worse than the second paradis, so is it an idea to play 1 Underground Sea?
As an 1 off it doesn't look that worse as the rest.

I'd argue the first Undiscovered Paradise isn't playable, let alone the second, I've lost more games to Undiscovered Paradise than any other land.

GoldenCid
11-22-2008, 05:06 PM
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
1x Glimmervoid
1x Undiscovered Paradise
1x Forbidden Orchard

Pce,

--DC


So....an 11 land mana base is needed??

heroicraptor
11-22-2008, 06:35 PM
Why only one Forbidden Orchard?

GoldenCid
11-22-2008, 08:14 PM
Why only one Forbidden Orchard?

I think that it 's because the orchard token screw up the EtW win condition.

Bryant Cook
11-23-2008, 12:57 AM
So....an 11 land mana base is needed??

No. Some people prefer it over a mox. Only problem is it's not an initial mana source after Ad Nauseum.

Dark_Cynic87
11-24-2008, 11:08 AM
Only problem is it's not an initial mana source after Ad Nauseum.

That depends on if you've made your land drop that turn or not...In my experience with Ad Nauseam (which is probably as much as anyone elses since I've been testing it since it was spoiled), I often haven't made my land drop the turn I Ad Nauseam, and even more important, I Ad Nauseam end of my opponent's turn, which allows me to use a land as an initial mana source. It doesn't up my storm, but I also don't have to rfg a card (although I understand that is rarely a big deal) and it can't be countered.

I'm just saying there's advantages both ways, and neither way seems to be better from my experience.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, though...I think Mystical Tutor is playable. :wink:

Pce,

--DC

Bryant Cook
11-24-2008, 12:07 PM
That depends on if you've made your land drop that turn or not...In my experience with Ad Nauseam (which is probably as much as anyone elses since I've been testing it since it was spoiled), I often haven't made my land drop the turn I Ad Nauseam, and even more important, I Ad Nauseam end of my opponent's turn, which allows me to use a land as an initial mana source. It doesn't up my storm, but I also don't have to rfg a card (although I understand that is rarely a big deal) and it can't be countered.

I'm just saying there's advantages both ways, and neither way seems to be better from my experience.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, though...I think Mystical Tutor is playable. :wink:

Pce,

--DC

Ad Nauseum EOT is awful. Unless you have the ability to go off again on your turn. Which is a very rare situation. Yes, theoretically it's possible, but unlikely. Most turn 1 wins require land, even with you playing 11 there's even a slight increase of you having a land already. By playing an 11th land instead of a Mox, you're risking not being able to win on turn 1 if you don't hit a Lotus Petal or a Chrome Mox. 7 cards total.

Dark_Cynic87
11-24-2008, 02:18 PM
Take what I say with a grain of salt, though...I think Mystical Tutor is playable. :wink:

Pce,

--DC

^^^

Pce,

--DC

GoldenCid
11-24-2008, 03:19 PM
There aren't any other better options that add +1 mana. I don't like the card all that much, so I could see cutting it for more land or more Cabal Rituals.

May be i'm a bit rookie with the deck, but SSG is 3 damage source when you resolve ad nauseam, in addtion to citadel and other "high cmc" cards that could make us to stop reveling card prematurely with AN. Beside it's not a spell (the mana source ability) and so doesn't count for storm. If it's really necesary could it be played in less than 3x?

Mayk0l
11-24-2008, 04:52 PM
May be i'm a bit rookie with the deck, but SSG is 3 damage source when you resolve ad nauseam, in addtion to citadel and other "high cmc" cards that could make us to stop reveling card prematurely with AN. Beside it's not a spell (the mana source ability) and so doesn't count for storm. If it's really necesary could it be played in less than 3x?


SSG is also free mana. This makes it powerful after an Ad Nauseam: say all your mana producing spells cost 1, that means that you cannot go off if you hardcast Ad Nauseam tapped out unless you hit land and haven't made a landdrop this turn. Basically, going off early becomes harder.
Now imagine you have free mana (Petals, Chrome Moxen, Spirit Guides); after you tap out to play Ad Nauseam, you suddenly have more 'free mana' drawn with Ad Nauseam to use to keep going. Granted, SSG is not ideal as it produces red, but red can be spent to play Rite of Flame and Burning Wish and if need be, Empty the Warrens.

Bryant Cook
11-24-2008, 04:56 PM
Take what I say with a grain of salt, though...I think Mystical Tutor is playable. :wink:

Pce,

--DC

I'm not trying to be a dick, but why post suggestions for others if you're not going to provide reasoning or results?

troopatroop
11-25-2008, 12:59 PM
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpoka08/legacytop8

I'm not sure if everyone has checked out the lists from the Okayama side event, but they're incredible. The storm combo lists are pretty creative, and you can't argue with results. Especially when it's coming out of Japan.

Bahamuth
11-25-2008, 01:27 PM
I played some games with that list, and it sure does feel very powerful. I rarely have to mulligan, barely any dead draws because of the exclusion of ToA and IGG. The only cards that bug me are the moxes, which are dead in multiples.

GoldenCid
11-25-2008, 04:43 PM
I don't think if it's really cool to cut tendrils and rely the victory just on burning wish....however i like mystical tutor for this deck (any version)

Dark_Cynic87
11-25-2008, 06:11 PM
I'm not trying to be a dick, but why post suggestions for others if you're not going to provide reasoning or results?

Every time I post suggestions for others it most definitely is off of my results, and every time I've suggested something and provided reasoning, it's been cast aside as utter nonsense.

I don't get results as I never go to tournaments as there are none here to go to. Denver is a 4 hour drive and even there they don't play legacy. They play Vintage. The only two legacy lists I've EVER seen in Denver was a 2+ year old build of UW Fish and a Mono-Black discard build. I beat them both on turn two. The guy playing MBD wouldn't even play me a second game.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think you are being a dick. If you were, I probably wouldn't care that much.

When you play a deck, and then you make changes to that deck, you change how you use the cards to fit it to how the deck works after those changes. For example, in FT, before we started playing Doomsday, we used the IGG chain just like TES before AdN. After we began using D-Day, the way we played it changed, which also made us change other cards, and it is now circular.

My point is that you guys found a card that changes how the deck plays. I think you are hanging on to old philosophies from before your changes. I think that while these philosophies still maintain, they do so just barely. Here: You know you run: 1x IGG, 1x Tendrils, 3x-4x AdN (depending on the build), and 2-3-4 SSG, plus 7-8 2cc tutors. It's been my experience that it doesn't matter how much your list's average cmc is, all that matters is what cards you hit.

If you styled your play to fit the addition of another land and got rid of your preconception that AdN eot or in response is bad (I know you didn't say it, but it seems that you think playing AdN any time other than your turn is bad), it might open up some plays that actually work better for your situation. A chalice @ one is a good scenario. They chalice, you in response go Rit, Rit, AdN. Would you do that, Bryant? Or would you wait until your next turn to Burning Wish (IF you had 1R available) into your hate to cast the turn after you Wish, and then hopefully combo off the turn after that? I would AdN. Actually, in my build I probably wouldn't, depending on what my hand looked like and how much mana I had in play...I'd Mystical Tutor up my bounce spell and then AdN, all in response to the Chalice (all for UB), drop my land/C. Mox/Petal the my next turn and bounce it and win. It requires more forethought than I think a lot of people are giving it credit for.

Hopefully none of that came off as being a dick. Hope that didn't either...

Pce,

--DC

Bryant Cook
11-25-2008, 11:36 PM
If you styled your play to fit the addition of another land and got rid of your preconception that AdN eot or in response is bad (I know you didn't say it, but it seems that you think playing AdN any time other than your turn is bad), it might open up some plays that actually work better for your situation. A chalice @ one is a good scenario. They chalice, you in response go Rit, Rit, AdN. Would you do that, Bryant? Or would you wait until your next turn to Burning Wish (IF you had 1R available) into your hate to cast the turn after you Wish, and then hopefully combo off the turn after that? I would AdN. Actually, in my build I probably wouldn't, depending on what my hand looked like and how much mana I had in play...I'd Mystical Tutor up my bounce spell and then AdN, all in response to the Chalice (all for UB), drop my land/C. Mox/Petal the my next turn and bounce it and win. It requires more forethought than I think a lot of people are giving it credit for.
If you had ritual, ritual, Ad Nauseum. Why wouldn't you cast it already on one of your mainphases? Why wait?

myselves
11-26-2008, 05:06 AM
If you styled your play to fit the addition of another land and got rid of your preconception that AdN eot or in response is bad (I know you didn't say it, but it seems that you think playing AdN any time other than your turn is bad), it might open up some plays that actually work better for your situation. A chalice @ one is a good scenario. They chalice, you in response go Rit, Rit, AdN. Would you do that, Bryant? Or would you wait until your next turn to Burning Wish (IF you had 1R available) into your hate to cast the turn after you Wish, and then hopefully combo off the turn after that? I would AdN. Actually, in my build I probably wouldn't, depending on what my hand looked like and how much mana I had in play...I'd Mystical Tutor up my bounce spell and then AdN, all in response to the Chalice (all for UB), drop my land/C. Mox/Petal the my next turn and bounce it and win. It requires more forethought than I think a lot of people are giving it credit for.



if You had kept a hand of 2x Dark Rit. 1 AN and a initial Mana scource, why not trying to combo off 1st turn? Or have you 2x Initial Mana scources, 2x Dark Rits. Mystical tutor and AN? In this case replace Mystical Tutor by Infernal Tutor, grin and win Turn 1...
So to my point of view this scenario is down the drain.

In the moment you are trying to bounce you're losing anyway. It would be kinda slow, or require a pretty good hand, to go off before Chalice hits the board again.

Rinello
11-26-2008, 06:49 PM
If our goal is to cast an AdN and do it even against a duress, what do you think of this:

// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [CH] City of Brass
2 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [FNM] Duress
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
2 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout


1 tutor in Side is to have extra tutors for AdN.
I personally dislike Ponder, since Brainstorm can protect our cards from discard, Ponder can't.
With AdN we don't need a high storm count, so IGG is win-more.
(I still keep 1 in side if needed)
Orim Chant is something I don't like, I'd rather use Duress and see what happens.
I prefer 4 SSG to protect myself from Daze, even if is a Lightning Bolt during AdN.

Please leave comment if you like.

Dark_Cynic87
11-26-2008, 08:51 PM
If you had ritual, ritual, Ad Nauseum. Why wouldn't you cast it already on one of your mainphases? Why wait?

Because most people prefer to combo off with Protection. Not just go off and hope they don't have a counterspell/Chant/etc.

@ Myselves: You are making assumptions now. I didn't say it was first turn, I simply said you have Rit, Rit, AdN in hand. Also, your thought on bounce is nonsense, as every other storm list has proven that eot bounce on the hate piece and then comboing off during your turn is acceptable, and even a good idea.

I don't like to combo off turn 1 in game one as then I'm not sure how to board for game 2. There's a chance (40% to 44% chance, depending on who's playing first) that they have a FoW in their opening hand. If they don't and you combo off turn 1, you have no idea if they are playing Force or not, let alone what other hate they are probably packing in their sideboard since you got to see exactly nothing they are playing. It's important to gather information, since you combo'ed off turn 1 game one, chances alone say you probably won't game 2, and even if you did, their chances of having a force of will in their opening hand get better anyway since they didn't game one, not to mention all the other hate they sided in.

I like to know what I'm up against. If it's nothing with blue, it's not like they are going to beat me anyway. If it is with blue, then I'm taking a big risk in comboing off turn one, no matter which game it is since I have no idea what they are playing anyway, not to mention their better chances at getting a FoW in their opening hand game two since they didn't have one game one.

@ Rinello: The Infernal Tutor is something I've suggested for a while now. How do you like it? It works REALLY well for me. I'm glad to see someone else who thinks it's a good idea. How are the Forbidden Orchards doing? I run Tops, so I use a Glimmervoid and an Orchard. I've also never tested Diamond. Does it ever screw you?

Pce,

--DC

GreenOne
11-26-2008, 09:22 PM
Turn 1 win considerations

I'd always combo off turn 1 on the play if i can.

This is because if the opponent plays blue:
- He has 1 more turn to draw or cantrip into FoW.
- He can leave stifle mana open.
- He can now play daze.
- He can leave Spell Snare mana open

If he's not blue:
- He can waste/sinkhole the land I played
- He can play some stupid disruption spell such as duress, thoughtseize, etc.
- He can D. Rit -> pain in the ass
- He can Chalice@1 or Trinisphere
- He can play a burn spell, thus reducing my life total and making AN fizzle more often
- He can leave a whitemana open for Chant if it's a combo deck.
- If it's a combo deck, he can even win.
- He can play a Blood Moon effect

This is the list of the things my opponent can do on turn 1 when I'm on the play: Fow, Misdirection, Commandeer, Faerie Macabre. Note that Misdi and commandeer are almost never played and Faerie Macabre is usually a 1 of in survival. That's it, chances are 60% against blue decks and 100% against the rest. Not bad, count me in.

matelml
11-27-2008, 03:42 AM
Wtf. Really, just give up the argument, you are really wrong. It's ALWAYS better to combo turn 1 on the play if you don't know what you're up against.

About the "not knowing what to board": just use IGG, if your opponent is bad, which is usually the case, they won't scoop before it resolves, so you can look at their hand.

How does your opponent have more chance or less chance of having FoW on the play/draw if you combo turn 1? Are you counting cantrips? I'd like to know how you calculated that 40%/44%.

Also, the chances of you opponent having FoW don't increase just because they didn't have one game 1. If you don't even know that, I don't really trust your mathematical abillities.

Sure, I prefer going off with protection, I just don't aklways do as I don't always have the ability. If you can choose between a turn 1 combo, or a potential later kill with protection, it's better to do the turn 1, still assuming you and you opponent don't know what you're up against.

The case of waiting eventhough you had Rit, Rit, AdN: it's possible, just unlikely to be good. It might be okay game 2 against FairyStompy if you boarded SSpree's. Then you can pass the turn, trying to assemble a protected kill and then AdN in response to their CotV at 1 (notice it doesn't help anything if they cast it at 0 or 2), draw a bunch of cards, SSpree their Chalice in your turn and win. Without the SSpree, it's likely you still won't be able to win on your own turn, especially since Fairystompy has a fast clock meaning you are low on life. Most decks with CotV dont play counters so you don't have to wait. In almost every case it's better to try winning without protection if they have CotV/CB in their deck. It's also a possibility to try AdN in response to CB, but you gave them an extra draw + maybe cantrip to find FoW/Daze/Spell Snare and an extra untap step to be able to cast more cantrips/Spell Snares.

Rinello
11-27-2008, 07:33 AM
@ Rinello: The Infernal Tutor is something I've suggested for a while now. How do you like it? It works REALLY well for me. I'm glad to see someone else who thinks it's a good idea. How are the Forbidden Orchards doing? I run Tops, so I use a Glimmervoid and an Orchard. I've also never tested Diamond. Does it ever screw you?


Infernal tutor is good in side ONLY if you have some other tutors already.

Turn 1 Mine, Rite of Flame, Wish for Infernal, Turn 2 rite, infernal, led led = AdN = Win is good.

Forbidden Orchad is GOD.
I don't give a S**t if you beat me for 1 or 2 more, I can combo out fast so I'll just draw 1 less..
If things get nasty I can wish for Firesprout so no problem, really.
I don't like Glimmervoid, as I want to be able to make "orchad, duress, go" just in case.
Diamond is there ONLY to be tested.
With AdN is important to have 1 mana open to start.
SSG, Petal, Crome and a Land help this way, but sometimes you have 3 or 4 lands and you must start. Mox Diamond helps, also against wasteland.

It's just a test, the main thing I would like to discuss is 1 Infernal in side and Mystical Tutor in main. I just want people (most of all breath weapon) to discuss Japan lists and mine (cause breath weapon has really hardcore builds, he just put everything in 4x and makes a real solid list imho)

That's all.

myselves
11-27-2008, 02:03 PM
@ Myselves: You are making assumptions now. I didn't say it was first turn, I simply said you have Rit, Rit, AdN in hand. Also, your thought on bounce is nonsense, as every other storm list has proven that eot bounce on the hate piece and then comboing off during your turn is acceptable, and even a good idea.



No, other storm lists like ANT or FT, which play Mystical tutor, and build around it. They use Mystical Tutor and Bounce to have solutions for the cards beeing able to give them a rough time.

But TES is build around Burning Wish, and build to race hate cards, and putting those two ways together doesn't work even near as well.

BreathWeapon
11-27-2008, 05:33 PM
No, other storm lists like ANT or FT, which play Mystical tutor, and build around it. They use Mystical Tutor and Bounce to have solutions for the cards beeing able to give them a rough time.

But TES is build around Burning Wish, and build to race hate cards, and putting those two ways together doesn't work even near as well.

That's not true, I've seen versions of TES and versions of ANT that use Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor under the premise that Infernal Tutor is "worthless." If you look at those Japanese lists, you'll see Storm combo decks that aren't as fast, but they are more consistent.

I think it's totally viable, it's just not "hands down" better or worse.

myselves
11-28-2008, 12:59 PM
That's not true, I've seen versions of TES and versions of ANT that use Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor under the premise that Infernal Tutor is "worthless." If you look at those Japanese lists, you'll see Storm combo decks that aren't as fast, but they are more consistent.

I think it's totally viable, it's just not "hands down" better or worse.

Yeah, I've also seen japanese Soldierlists, or 1-2 guys running 1-2 Tombstalker MD and 2-3 in the board, ManPlan in TES ftw. some guys have done so and finished great anywhere anywhy, why not?

BreathWeapon
11-28-2008, 03:03 PM
Yeah, I've also seen japanese Soldierlists, or 1-2 guys running 1-2 Tombstalker MD and 2-3 in the board, ManPlan in TES ftw. some guys have done so and finished great anywhere anywhy, why not?

I can't understand your English, but if you're implying TES lists can still win their good match ups with sub-optimal card choices, I'd argue Mystical Tutor does more to win TES's bad match ups than Infernal Tutor, when Infernal Tutor doesn't have every necessary card to go off behind it.

The logic is sound, it's just a significant adjustment to TES that "balls to the walls" players may not care for.

myselves
11-30-2008, 01:11 PM
I can't understand your English, but if you're implying TES lists can still win their good match ups with sub-optimal card choices, I'd argue Mystical Tutor does more to win TES's bad match ups than Infernal Tutor, when Infernal Tutor doesn't have every necessary card to go off behind it.

The logic is sound, it's just a significant adjustment to TES that "balls to the walls" players may not care for.

No, I think you just didn't get the irony.


That's not true, I've seen versions of TES and versions of ANT that use Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor under the premise that Infernal Tutor is "worthless."

Cause this is no argument, or at least no valid argument.
My point was just that I've also seen a lot of decks that, in fact not belong to legacy.

And where does Mystical Tutor improves any rough Matchups for TES? The CDA is troublesome against Thresh/Thrash/Chalice Aggro/Suicide. The only relevant Matchups where Mystical Tutor shines is Landstill, which isn't as rough as it was a few months ago since they're cutting Halo and Extirpate for Relic of Progentius in the Board.

Phoenix Ignition
11-30-2008, 02:53 PM
It's important to gather information, since you combo'ed off turn 1 game one, chances alone say you probably won't game 2, and even if you did, their chances of having a force of will in their opening hand get better anyway since they didn't game one, not to mention all the other hate they sided in.

I'd just like to point out that no matter how many times you flip a heads on a coin, your next flip still only has a 50% chance of getting a tails.

Statistics is funny like that.

BreathWeapon
11-30-2008, 06:18 PM
No, I think you just didn't get the irony.



Cause this is no argument, or at least no valid argument.
My point was just that I've also seen a lot of decks that, in fact not belong to legacy.

And where does Mystical Tutor improves any rough Matchups for TES? The CDA is troublesome against Thresh/Thrash/Chalice Aggro/Suicide. The only relevant Matchups where Mystical Tutor shines is Landstill, which isn't as rough as it was a few months ago since they're cutting Halo and Extirpate for Relic of Progentius in the Board.

It's not a question of whether or not Infernal Tutor or Mystical is better versus Landstill etc. it's a question of Infernal Tutor being worthless for anything other than "going off" and Mystical Tutor having the ability to find disruption, removal and cards to "go off." Those Japanese lists are experimental, but they've got merit and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. TES runs fine with out Mystical Tutor, but I wouldn't begrudge any one from running Mystical Tutor either.

It's simply not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it out to be.

SuperBean
11-30-2008, 10:31 PM
I agree with what was said above. I am a T.E.S player myself and enjoy Bryant's version of the deck down to every last card in the main board. When it comes to sideboard I've changed it a little due to my meta game in the area.

I think when it comes down to these Infernal Tutor, Mystical Tutor discussion's it comes down to personal preference and what your meta game is like.

myselves
12-01-2008, 07:44 AM
It's not a question of whether or not Infernal Tutor or Mystical is better versus Landstill etc. it's a question of Infernal Tutor being worthless for anything other than "going off" and Mystical Tutor having the ability to find disruption, removal and cards to "go off." Those Japanese lists are experimental, but they've got merit and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. TES runs fine with out Mystical Tutor, but I wouldn't begrudge any one from running Mystical Tutor either.

It's simply not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it out to be.

Bluff the opponent or search down the 2nd Chant is useless against what?
Finding the missing acceleration piece before beeing able to go off with Wish/IT for Iggy is worthless?

One more time, to my point of view TES has to race hate, not like ANT does.
And Mystical is almost dead, it gets shut down by a chalice if you are on the draw, and the carddisadvantage is to clunky against almost every Tier1 - 2 deck except Landstill and MUC.
Also searching a Duress just for just beeing able to duress Turn 2 doesn't put you in a superior position, it forces you to rush the opponent with your remaining 6 cards if you see a winable situation.
Mystical gets worse while taking mulligan and so on.

And if you want to include Mystical Tutor over IT you should proove where it improoves TES rough Matchups, I actually see none like I'd tell you before.

Shriekmaw
12-01-2008, 12:31 PM
TES runs fine with out Mystical Tutor, but I wouldn't begrudge any one from running Mystical Tutor either.

It's simply not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it out to be.


If you decide to pick up TES and run Mystical in it then your understanding on how the deck operates is flawed. There is no way you should run mystical if you have access to the 5 different colors in magic. In the deck, you run 4 infernal tutors, burning wishes, brainstorm, along with 3 ponders and 3 ad nauseum. Why would you need to play an inferior card in mystical tutor?

I understand running it in the versions that don't play the 5 color lands, but thats because you don't play burning wish.

Burning Wish > Mystical Tutor

The japanese combo decks are just awful by the card selection I saw. They clearly did not test enough or didn't care and just ran whatever. They did well because combo is just that good in legacy right now.

Apex
12-01-2008, 07:11 PM
I wouldn't just disregard the Japanese lists as worthless, particularly since basically 2 TES w/ Mystical top 8ed (1st and 3rd) in a large tournament (well, I'm assuming anyway, these side events at GPs or PTs always draw a fairly large showing, and the prize was an uncut sheet of Antiquities with Factories and stuff on it). I don't think you can just automatically assume your configuration is the best, while others that put up results are playing with unprepared lists. They must be doing something right if they are winning.

Now I personally don't like Mystical in TES, as I prefer Mystical more in something like FT/ANT. But I'm really liking the Japanese lists' manabase. We were all debating about which gold land to use couple of pages ago, but apparently, with some tight play, it looks like fetches + duals + goldlands (as opposed to dipping into stuff like Glimmervoid or Tarnished Citadel) works quite well. I think that's something to look into.

BreathWeapon
12-01-2008, 07:19 PM
If you decide to pick up TES and run Mystical in it then your understanding on how the deck operates is flawed. There is no way you should run mystical if you have access to the 5 different colors in magic. In the deck, you run 4 infernal tutors, burning wishes, brainstorm, along with 3 ponders and 3 ad nauseum. Why would you need to play an inferior card in mystical tutor?

I understand running it in the versions that don't play the 5 color lands, but thats because you don't play burning wish.

Burning Wish > Mystical Tutor

The japanese combo decks are just awful by the card selection I saw. They clearly did not test enough or didn't care and just ran whatever. They did well because combo is just that good in legacy right now.

First, I've used TES just as long as Bryant has, so don't tell me I misunderstand the deck when I've got 4 moxes that say otherwise. Second, I never said I planned to include Mystical Tutor in TES. The point I was arguing, and the point you've misconstrued, is that it's not a question of Burning Wish > Mystical but whether or not Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor were viable in the same deck. They are, it's just not necessarily optimal in TES, which I prefaced my argument with.

Sure, the Japanese lists are rough, but they're novel and have potential. Being able to split 4 Duress and 1 Orim's Chant, having a MD Echoing Truth and a singleton Cabal Ritual as tutorable LED gives the deck a lot of options in clutch situations. Just being to grab Empty the Warrens changes how control decks are going to have to deal with you, so there's a lot of advantages to Mystical Tutor that only play out in game when you're not being too incredulous to actually test the card.

Shriekmaw
12-03-2008, 12:45 PM
First, I've used TES just as long as Bryant has, so don't tell me I misunderstand the deck when I've got 4 moxes that say otherwise. Second, I never said I planned to include Mystical Tutor in TES. The point I was arguing, and the point you've misconstrued, is that it's not a question of Burning Wish > Mystical but whether or not Burning Wish and Mystical Tutor were viable in the same deck. They are, it's just not necessarily optimal in TES, which I prefaced my argument with.



If you think its good deckbuilding to be playing both burning wish and mystical tutor in the same deck that already runs infernal tutor, then you need to revaluate your deck building skills.

Mystical tutor is card disadvantage and there is no reason to play it if your already running burning wish and infernal tutor in the deck. You would be better suited to be running more rituals/protection spells in that spot instead of getting cute with all the one ofs which burning wish solves.

It just boggles my mind why so many players think mystical tutor is good and worth playing. Unless your not playing red for burning wish, mystical tutor shouldn't even be considered.

Arsenal
12-03-2008, 12:58 PM
I'm playing the standard list. If Thresh/control isn't big in my meta, what would you suggest replacing the Shushers with? -3 Shushers, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 ???

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
3 Ad Nauseum
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Orim's Chant
2 Duress
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbiddan Orchard

SB
3 Pyroblast
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Shattering Spree
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tranquility
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony

Bryant Cook
12-03-2008, 01:10 PM
I've already moved Shusher down to 2, I cut Cleanfall and a Shusher for two Chain of Vapor. Gaddeck Teeg and Canonist are just cards we need hate for. I'd recommend Chain of Vapor x2 and a Duress if you insist on cutting all three. Chain of Vapor after Nauseum is amazing at generating storm at the worst.

Arsenal
12-03-2008, 01:24 PM
I've already moved Shusher down to 2, I cut Cleanfall and a Shusher for two Chain of Vapor. Gaddeck Teeg and Canonist are just cards we need hate for. I'd recommend Chain of Vapor x2 and a Duress if you insist on cutting all three. Chain of Vapor after Nauseum is amazing at generating storm at the worst.

Any chance you'd be able to update the OP with the most current config?

troopatroop
12-03-2008, 01:42 PM
If you think its good deckbuilding to be playing both burning wish and mystical tutor in the same deck that already runs infernal tutor, then you need to revaluate your deck building skills.

Then how do you explain the Okayama side event results? Both winning storm combo lists played 4 Mystical Tutor and an assortment of Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor. Their success was not a fluke. Explain why running all of those cards together is bad in theory.


Mystical tutor is card disadvantage and there is no reason to play it if your already running burning wish and infernal tutor in the deck. You would be better suited to be running more rituals/protection spells in that spot instead of getting cute with all the one ofs which burning wish solves.

What are you trying to say here? Are you implying that since both Mystical Tutor and Burning Wish can search for answers, and because Burning Wish isn't card disadvantage, that Burning Wish just does the job better? I know that Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage, but it is almost always used to settup the next turn win. How relevant is that one card advantage when your opponent searches for and casts Ad Nauseam on his second turn. AdN changes the viability of Mystical Tutor. Especially when you're lowering the Ad Nauseam count to 2. Burning Wish will never fetch AdN, and always costs one more to search for an answer at sorcery speed. You will often need the card to use with LED and won't be able to use it for an answer without slowing yourself down alot. That's not strictly better. Infernal Tutor serves a very different purpose than Mystical, and moderately different purpose than Burning Wish. Infernal Tutor is almost always used in conjunction with LED and very rarely used before comboing as a settup spell.

I just don't see the negative synergy in playing those cards together. Mystical Tutor is inherantly a bad card, but AdN changes the name of the game. It's Vampiric Tutor for the card that you're most likely to want to see.


It just boggles my mind why so many players think mystical tutor is good and worth playing. Unless your not playing red for burning wish, mystical tutor shouldn't even be considered.

While I agree that Burning Wish is necessary, I still don't see why they can't be played together. You make it sound like they're grossly incompatable when that's just not the case. It should really be a debate between Ponder and Mystical rather than Burning Wish and Mystical.

Bahamuth
12-03-2008, 02:12 PM
I don't like Mystical Tutor in TES either, but seriously, the card giving carddisadvantage should never be an argument for a combo deck. Your entire deck consists of carddisadvantage, and you still win. You usually have an advantage, because your opponent will always be forced to try to stop you. Probably only a few cards in his deck can do that, and thus you start out with huge virtual cardadvantage, which only exists because your deck is so damn fast.

troopatroop
12-03-2008, 03:23 PM
I don't like Mystical Tutor in TES either, but seriously, the card giving carddisadvantage should never be an argument for a combo deck. Your entire deck consists of carddisadvantage, and you still win. You usually have an advantage, because your opponent will always be forced to try to stop you. Probably only a few cards in his deck can do that, and thus you start out with huge virtual cardadvantage, which only exists because your deck is so damn fast.

I should have been more clear. I agree that Mystical Tutor shouldn't be in TES. I think Ponder is better for this deck, but I do think that Mystical Tutor has merit in the Japanese lists, and shouldn't be discounted based on past experiences with different decks.

Bryant Cook
12-03-2008, 04:19 PM
Then how do you explain the Okayama side event results? Both winning storm combo lists played 4 Mystical Tutor and an assortment of Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor. Their success was not a fluke. Explain why running all of those cards together is bad in theory.Different Metagames and the power of one card. Mystical tutor didn't carry their records into top 8. It was Ad Nauseum. Their decks were poorly built with Mox Diamond and no Ill-Gotten Gains. Mox Diamond is a terrible card to open hand and they don't have a back-up plan. Also, this isn't including running bad maindeck cards like Ancient Grudge. 13 lands is also a bit high. The lack of Ponder also bothers me not being able to find LED, the most broken card in the deck.




What are you trying to say here? Are you implying that since both Mystical Tutor and Burning Wish can search for answers, and because Burning Wish isn't card disadvantage, that Burning Wish just does the job better? I know that Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage, but it is almost always used to settup the next turn win. How relevant is that one card advantage when your opponent searches for and casts Ad Nauseam on his second turn. AdN changes the viability of Mystical Tutor. Especially when you're lowering the Ad Nauseam count to 2. Burning Wish will never fetch AdN, and always costs one more to search for an answer at sorcery speed. You will often need the card to use with LED and won't be able to use it for an answer without slowing yourself down alot. That's not strictly better. Infernal Tutor serves a very different purpose than Mystical, and moderately different purpose than Burning Wish. Infernal Tutor is almost always used in conjunction with LED and very rarely used before comboing as a settup spell. You were correct with your first statement. Card advantage/disadvantage is important. Running too many cards that create card disadvantage will only crumble you into a hole. Not including the fact that Mystical tutor takes time slowing down the deck. Mystical tutor doesn't find lands and artifacts, artifacts being Lion's eye Diamond. The deck doesn't have to find Ad Nauseum when built properly. Running all these tutors will just clunk your draws and make decent hands unplayable. You don't need Burning Wish to get Ad Nauseum, Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns will get the job done. Having versatility and flexibility is important.


I just don't see the negative synergy in playing those cards together. Mystical Tutor is inherantly a bad card, but AdN changes the name of the game. It's Vampiric Tutor for the card that you're most likely to want to see. How is this true? Mystical Tutor's card disadvantage isn't made up for by Ad Nauseum. Mystical is terrible after Nauseum because you already have what you need, then need another card to draw it. Which must have been hard for them because they weren't playing Ponder. Playing Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor in the same deck is awful, it just digs you into a deep hole. It's hard to come back with combo once you're down. Burning Wish fulfills all the same roles that Mystical does while putting the card to your hand, you also won't have to run cards like echoing truth and Ancient Grudge maindeck. It's nothing like Vamp.




While I agree that Burning Wish is necessary, I still don't see why they can't be played together. You make it sound like they're grossly incompatable when that's just not the case. It should really be a debate between Ponder and Mystical rather than Burning Wish and Mystical. It's redundancy, why play two cards that fill the exact same role when you only need to play one? Ponder over Mystical isn't arguable in my eyes. I've already comment on this topic.

deviant
12-03-2008, 04:58 PM
I took TES to a tournament a week or so ago and only lost to Dreadstill. (epic games). (EDIT: pun not intended)
The deck was awesome, and the only thing I was left wanting was the 4th Ponder. (basically for the reasons Bryant already stated, and it finds the other stuff really well too.)

Is the 8th cantrip pushing it already? A Mox seems like the most expendable slot (SSG was also a little clunky the whole day, mostly pitching to mox and sitting in the sb).

I could also see the 3rd Duress important, I seem to end up with hands that need a mana source/a black card for mox to win quite often. And I really hate passing the turn :D

(not too keen on mystical either, though I really like it in ANT but that deck is a "one trick pony" where you can do majillion tricks with TES)

troopatroop
12-03-2008, 05:11 PM
Different Metagames and the power of one card. Mystical tutor didn't carry their records into top 8. It was Ad Nauseum. Their decks were poorly built with Mox Diamond and no Ill-Gotten Gains. Mox Diamond is a terrible card to open hand and they don't have a back-up plan. Also, this isn't including running bad maindeck cards like Ancient Grudge. 13 lands is also a bit high. The lack of Ponder also bothers me not being able to find LED, the most broken card in the deck.

They also didn't play Tendrils MD. Weird huh? Mox Diamond isn't always a dead card. It basically is in TES, but with 3 more lands, it can sometimes be an acceleration piece. It's basically just fantastic after AdN, and that's probably why they chose to run it. He has 10 0cc mana producers so he'll never fizzle after AdN. Ancient Grudge or Echoing truth can be cut from the list with little consequence, and that's not even the winning list. 13 lands has been awesome for me. I always want multiple lands. I draw no land hands alot with only 10.



You were correct with your first statement. Card advantage/disadvantage is important. Running too many cards that create card disadvantage will only crumble you into a hole. Not including the fact that Mystical tutor takes time slowing down the deck. Mystical tutor doesn't find lands and artifacts, artifacts being Lion's eye Diamond. The deck doesn't have to find Ad Nauseum when built properly. Running all these tutors will just clunk your draws and make decent hands unplayable. You don't need Burning Wish to get Ad Nauseum, Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns will get the job done. Having versatility and flexibility is important.

Yes, playing too much card disadvantage is bad in theory, but Bahamuth said it well enough. You lose a draw step, but if you're attempting to draw a million cards right after, how relevant is it?

The deck played 9 Tutors with 4 Mystical. You play 8 in TES. Multiple Infernals is a usually worse than a spread of different tutors in hand, unless you're comfortable casting one for an acceleration piece.


How is this true? Mystical Tutor's card disadvantage isn't made up for by Ad Nauseum. Mystical is terrible after Nauseum because you already have what you need, then need another card to draw it. Which must have been hard for them because they weren't playing Ponder. Playing Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor in the same deck is awful, it just digs you into a deep hole. It's hard to come back with combo once you're down. Burning Wish fulfills all the same roles that Mystical does while putting the card to your hand, you also won't have to run cards like echoing truth and Ancient Grudge maindeck. It's nothing like Vamp.

I personally don't care if my cards are bad after AdN. At that point I've either won the game or gotten unlucky. Sometimes Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor can put you too deep. This is true, but I wouldn't think about running less than 4 Chrome Mox because I always want to be able to win after AdN. They won't always be drawn together and when they are they won't always lose it for you. I had a hand that won turn 2 and casted both those cards just a couple minutes ago. If you open both of them, then imprinting the Mystical is fine too. Playing Mystical doesn't lock you into playing those two singletons if you don't want to.



It's redundancy, why play two cards that fill the exact same role when you only need to play one? Ponder over Mystical isn't arguable in my eyes. I've already comment on this topic.

But they don't fill the exact same role, and I've already said that Ponder is better in this deck. Those builds are very different. They are completely reliant on playing and resolving Ad Nauseam. They don't even play IGG or Tendrils maindeck, although the winning list played them both in the board. My entire point is that Mystical Tutor makes those decks alot better, and judging by how well they did, and how different their lists are, shouldn't we at least consider the possibility that they're doing something right? What about the manabases? Don't those seem better than running Orchard or Undiscovered Paradise?

Bryant Cook
12-03-2008, 08:17 PM
They also didn't play Tendrils MD. Weird huh? Mox Diamond isn't always a dead card. It basically is in TES, but with 3 more lands, it can sometimes be an acceleration piece. It's basically just fantastic after AdN, and that's probably why they chose to run it. He has 10 0cc mana producers so he'll never fizzle after AdN. Ancient Grudge or Echoing truth can be cut from the list with little consequence, and that's not even the winning list. 13 lands has been awesome for me. I always want multiple lands. I draw no land hands alot with only 10. You're just proving why thier lists were bad. No Tendrils maindeck? Seriously? I can't believe I missed this. Even with 13 lands it's still not enough to support Mox Diamond. Not to mention, if it gets blown up it's a 2 for 1. Even if either deck doesn't win after Ad Nauseum turn 1, they still have turn 2 when they had 30 cards in their hand the previous turn. It's basically guaranteed victory. Therefor, the Mox isn't that big of an improvement if an improvement at all in their list.





Yes, playing too much card disadvantage is bad in theory, but Bahamuth said it well enough. You lose a draw step, but if you're attempting to draw a million cards right after, how relevant is it?

The deck played 9 Tutors with 4 Mystical. You play 8 in TES. Multiple Infernals is a usually worse than a spread of different tutors in hand, unless you're comfortable casting one for an acceleration piece. Attempting is the key word there. Decks get stopped all the time and if you get stopped after Mystical it's a lot worse than after a Ponder or Burning Wish. No Card disadvantage with Burning Wish or with Ponder you can set yourself up for insurance if you do manage to get stopped. So, it's very relevant. I'll cast an Infernal Tutor for a 2nd LED all day long, in fact it's one of my most common plays.



I personally don't care if my cards are bad after AdN. At that point I've either won the game or gotten unlucky. Sometimes Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor can put you too deep. This is true, but I wouldn't think about running less than 4 Chrome Mox because I always want to be able to win after AdN. They won't always be drawn together and when they are they won't always lose it for you. I had a hand that won turn 2 and casted both those cards just a couple minutes ago. If you open both of them, then imprinting the Mystical is fine too. Playing Mystical doesn't lock you into playing those two singletons if you don't want to. They won't always lose you the game or be bad together, but more often than not they will be. That's not a risk I'm willing to take and most of us care what our hands look like after an Ad Nauseum. We want to win the game fast an efficiently. You've also ignored the largest argument against Mystical which is it you either need to cast a draw spell + have mana to play the spell or wait. Both options are sub-optimal.




But they don't fill the exact same role, and I've already said that Ponder is better in this deck. Those builds are very different. They are completely reliant on playing and resolving Ad Nauseam. They don't even play IGG or Tendrils maindeck, although the winning list played them both in the board. My entire point is that Mystical Tutor makes those decks alot better, and judging by how well they did, and how different their lists are, shouldn't we at least consider the possibility that they're doing something right? What about the manabases? Don't those seem better than running Orchard or Undiscovered Paradise? How not? Mystical and Burning Wish certainly fill the same role. Finding answers and Bombs (Tendrils, Storm Engines). As for the manabases, 13 lands seems terrible to me. I've tested duals every now and again, with lists being all duals, and partial duals. The main argument is that they don't cast important cards in the deck such as Orim's Chant. Sometimes you're on one land and need W for Chant.

Jaiminho
12-03-2008, 11:48 PM
How not? Mystical and Burning Wish certainly fill the same role. Finding answers and Bombs (Tendrils, Storm Engines).

I believe he was talking about how some instants answer some things better than sorceries. Mystical will find everything Wish can, with the condition that it's in your library. The role is certainly the same, but the strength of the card it can fetch is stronger with Mystical; at least equal, but never weaker.

I must say, though, that TES without Mystical seems a much more reasonable choice, because of the speed it can offer in a goldfish or in a 1-protected win, which is most of the times enough.

Bahamuth
12-04-2008, 01:48 AM
You're just proving why thier lists were bad. No Tendrils maindeck? Seriously? I can't believe I missed this. Even with 13 lands it's still not enough to support Mox Diamond. Not to mention, if it gets blown up it's a 2 for 1. Even if either deck doesn't win after Ad Nauseum turn 1, they still have turn 2 when they had 30 cards in their hand the previous turn. It's basically guaranteed victory. Therefor, the Mox isn't that big of an improvement if an improvement at all in their list.

I don't see a reason to play mainboard Tendrils at all. The deck only played 2 Infernal Tutors, and with the Mysticals, it functions perfectly fine. You don't even give any arguments at all for why to play Tendrils main. I'm sure you can see the advantages, the main one being it reduces your average casting cost, which is a really mayor factor.

I agree with you on Diamond. The card will very often be dead when drawn, which is enough reason not to play it. I'd play SSG over it, but the deck doesn't really need either.





Attempting is the key word there. Decks get stopped all the time and if you get stopped after Mystical it's a lot worse than after a Ponder or Burning Wish. No Card disadvantage with Burning Wish or with Ponder you can set yourself up for insurance if you do manage to get stopped. So, it's very relevant. I'll cast an Infernal Tutor for a 2nd LED all day long, in fact it's one of my most common plays.

This is just weird....
By stopped, I can think of 2 popular ways: discard and couters. As far as I know, discard is exactly the kind of hate Mystical is good against. The counters are another story, but I'm sure you know just as well that usually only the Tutor/AdN will be countered (with the exception of CB, which will usually mean you've lost anyway), thus making sure you're left with 0-1 cards in your hand anyway. Again, your deck is full of carddisadvantage, and it's the reason you win. You cannot argue against Mystical because it's carddisadvantage.

Setting up for insurance is usually useless, because you play LED. If you mean finding Chant, Mystical is better. You're only going to get more protection anyway when you already can win. CDA doesn't change that.

SuperBean
12-04-2008, 03:37 AM
I still think that Mystical Tutor is way way too slow for T.E.S. It's not worth trying to add it, or shove it in there.

Infernal Tutor is much more synergistic with almost all of the cards in the deck. So why play a tutor that puts something on the top of your library, and reveals it to your opponent? Completely baffles me.

As for testing dual lands, and fetch lands, I've done both and again I agree with Bryant. It's way to hard to adjust the mana base of the deck to support all 5 colors effectively. I couldn't tell you how many times I had a fetch or a dual in my hand and I wished it was a City of Brass or Gemstone Mine, especially when it came to a Chant which can be a game changing spell once it resolves.

Those are my .2 Cents, it just seems like everyone is trying to add there own touch to a deck that already does such a great job and flows so well.

GreenOne
12-04-2008, 06:09 AM
Mystical Tutor shuffles the deck after a brainstorm and it has a cost of just 1 instead of 2. This counts both for AN and its ability to play as a setup spell, and as a setup spell I believe it's much better than both Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish.
That said, I still don't know if it does belong the deck.

matelml
12-04-2008, 07:22 AM
Well, eventhough I suspect this won't lead anywhere as there is no way to prove who is right, I'll step in.

I, just like Bahamuth prefer Mystical Tutor-less TES. Still, Mystical Tutor shouldn't be disregarded this easily. The second Japanese list is pretty decent and could be good if improved. For reference, this is the list I tested:

List based on Japanese TES(ish) list (3rd place, there was also a 1st, but I liked this one better)

1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Gemstone Mine


2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Orim's Chant
2 Pact of Negation
4 Rite of Flame

Ok. It's pretty different from the usual lists. This means you can't just compare the cards to the usual slots for TES on their own, they work together.

Let's compare: The deck has more lands (2-3), more protection (2-4), less AdN fizzles (it draws if I remember correctly 27 cards on average compared to 17 with normal TES, both assumed with 20 life)
It finds protection more easily. It can shuffle with Brainstorm (more easily). Another small advantage is you can board 1-offs like CoV and find them with Mystical.

It probably has less speed, due to more protection and lands. Although Mystical, in theory, doesn't have to mean loss of speed, this depends on how many extra times you can win on turn 2-3 due to Mystical compared to the times you can't win turn 1/need to wait more than otherwise. Still it's pretty hard to look at Mystical on itself. Mystical needs the deck to be adjusted around, so you can't say it slows you down if the rest speeds you up. I believe this deck is slower. Advantage is you can use protection more easily, have a better "lategame" and can use AdN better.

Other disadvantages are hard to judge objectively.

Here is the line of reasoning I went through when I saw this deck:
You want to use AdN more efficiently, so you want to cut the ToA/EtW/IGG. This also has the advantage you will have less dead draws and thus "more" slots, so, I repeat, you can not compare the slots individually. You have 3 slots more, so the level of your replacements in the deck don't have to be as strong, in theory, because you have more compared to the old list. If you don't understand this logic, nevermind.
Ok, you want to lower your average CC, so you want to cut those 3. Well, this makes IT pretty bad, it still finds your main win, AdN, but you can't combo for 6 mana (IT->EtW) and post-AdN can't find ToA with it. So you cut some IT's and add Mysticals, which work great with AdN, since it lowers the combo cost to 5+1 (spreaded over to turnse, effectively 5), instead of 2+5 in one turn. You can also play less AdN which is good for your CC, because of Mystical. Because the deck is a bit slower and have enough slots it play more lands. This isn't certain though, in my opinion, the old base might work better. So the manabase becomes weaker which leads to not being able to play 4 Chants, since it's hard to get enough W. So PoN are added. the manabase is not an essential part of the deck, but it has advantages of course. Though, if you want more than 11 lands it does seem crappy to add 4 of the bad rainbowlands.

About it being hard to find ToA post-AdN: ridiculous. This deck draws so many cards off it that it becomes easy.

At last, I do not claim this to be better than TES. I just think it is interesting and is useful for discussion. It has led to many doubts and thoughts for me, even after playng TES for 2 years and winning my countries championship with the normal list. Let's look at it without having to defend yourself.

I agree Mox Diamond is horrible and Ponder could be added.

Bryant Cook
12-04-2008, 11:08 AM
I don't see a reason to play mainboard Tendrils at all. The deck only played 2 Infernal Tutors, and with the Mysticals, it functions perfectly fine. You don't even give any arguments at all for why to play Tendrils main. I'm sure you can see the advantages, the main one being it reduces your average casting cost, which is a really mayor factor. It's true that not playing Tendrils main lowers your average CC. However, it opens you up to tons of hate. Even terrible cards like extirpate are now great, if they hit one of your two Burning Wish and you lose. Your opponent could also just counter/discard your two Burning Wish. This seems awful to me, at least if they played a maindeck Ill-Gotten Gains they could get them back. But they don't, this is just another flaw in their lists. Tendrils maindeck wins games you shouldn't by just building up storm because your opponent counterspelled key spells. Running a Tendrils maindeck can also win games when you have hands short on mana, because you won't have to cast extra cards like tutors.


This is just weird....
By stopped, I can think of 2 popular ways: discard and couters. As far as I know, discard is exactly the kind of hate Mystical is good against. The counters are another story, but I'm sure you know just as well that usually only the Tutor/AdN will be countered (with the exception of CB, which will usually mean you've lost anyway), thus making sure you're left with 0-1 cards in your hand anyway. Again, your deck is full of carddisadvantage, and it's the reason you win. You cannot argue against Mystical because it's carddisadvantage. Sure, Mystical Tutor away, you get Burning Wish. On your mainphase you go off, they counter Wish. They just two for one'd you and you have one card left in the deck that they care about. This is just one example of why their lists are built poorly. I will argue card disadvantage all day, it's very relevant and I care about it.


Setting up for insurance is usually useless, because you play LED. If you mean finding Chant, Mystical is better. You're only going to get more protection anyway when you already can win. CDA doesn't change that.You wouldn't have to find Chant if you played 4x Orim's Chant and Ponder.

Dark_Cynic87
12-04-2008, 02:19 PM
It's true that not playing Tendrils main lowers your average CC. However, it opens you up to tons of hate. Even terrible cards like extirpate are now great, if they hit one of your two Burning Wish and you lose. Your opponent could also just counter/discard your two Burning Wish. This seems awful to me, at least if they played a maindeck Ill-Gotten Gains they could get them back. But they don't, this is just another flaw in their lists. Tendrils maindeck wins games you shouldn't by just building up storm because your opponent counterspelled key spells. Running a Tendrils maindeck can also win games when you have hands short on mana, because you won't have to cast extra cards like tutors.

Sure, Mystical Tutor away, you get Burning Wish. On your mainphase you go off, they counter Wish. They just two for one'd you and you have one card left in the deck that they care about. This is just one example of why their lists are built poorly. I will argue card disadvantage all day, it's very relevant and I care about it.

You wouldn't have to find Chant if you played 4x Orim's Chant and Ponder.

It seems that in most of your scenarios, your arguments assume the storm player is making very stupid choices; Going off without protection, etc.

I play FT a lot as I've mentioned before, and I find myself tutoring up chants all the time. I run a full set, as well as a full set of Duress, which I also tutor for sometimes. Ponder is obviously run as well.

You will never play combo and not get x-for-oned. It's not possible. If a tutor gets countered and it stops your chain, you then got x-for-oned. It happens if you go off unprotected.

An argument for Mystical Tutor is that it spreads your tutors out over 2 cmc's instead of just one. With Mystical Tutor and they chalice @ 1, it makes one of your tutors useless. I will also point out, though, that if they chalice at one, you can often respond by casting Mystical tutor, even into your way to get rid of the Chalice @ 1. Can't do that with ponder.

You are right, Bryant, you can't Mystical into an LED. You CAN however Mystical into a Cabal Rit, which often acts as an LED (which you have said yourself).

Frankly, I think that whether you like it or not, Mystical Tutor has applications in most storm lists, if not all storm lists; it just depends on the player's preference. I like it. It works for me. I'll play it. You don't have to.

Pce,

--DC

Bryant Cook
12-04-2008, 02:38 PM
It seems that in most of your scenarios, your arguments assume the storm player is making very stupid choices; Going off without protection, etc. When playing against decks like Threshold, Team America, Eva Green, or EPIC Painter you are forced into doing certain plays because of their disruption. You won't always have time or the resources to sit back and wait.

You will never play combo and not get x-for-oned. It's not possible. If a tutor gets countered and it stops your chain, you then got x-for-oned. It happens if you go off unprotected. In some point in time yes, you will get two for oned. But you don't want that happening constantly. Not playing Mystical lowers these chances.


An argument for Mystical Tutor is that it spreads your tutors out over 2 cmc's instead of just one. With Mystical Tutor and they chalice @ 1, it makes one of your tutors useless. I will also point out, though, that if they chalice at one, you can often respond by casting Mystical tutor, even into your way to get rid of the Chalice @ 1. Can't do that with ponder. You wouldn't have done that either way, Ponder is a sorcery. You in theory could have pondered on your mainphase into the win or a shattering spree. The point here is moot.


You are right, Bryant, you can't Mystical into an LED. You CAN however Mystical into a Cabal Rit, which often acts as an LED (which you have said yourself). It can act as LED in producing 3 mana, but not always. It also doesn't make UUU for Diminishing Returns. I'm not arguing against Cabal Ritual here, but it's just not as strong as LED. Which you could have if you just played Ponder.


Frankly, I think that whether you like it or not, Mystical Tutor has applications in most storm lists, if not all storm lists; it just depends on the player's preference. I like it. It works for me. I'll play it. You don't have to.

Pce,

--DC
This is just annoying. Almost all of your arguments in the past include an attitude that says, "Well, I like it so I'm going to play it, HA!". I get it; you like Mystical tutor, you don't have to put that snipit at the bottom of every one of your posts involving Mystical Tutor.

Shriekmaw
12-04-2008, 02:49 PM
I play FT a lot as I've mentioned before


Your playing Iggy Pop, so your deck is mostly 2 colors with a splash to play main deck chant. Since the deck can't really support burning wish, you are forced to play mystical tutor which I have done.

Mystical tutor is a must in this type of list because you have to find your 1 ofs which are in the main deck pre or post game 1 in addition to any rituals/tutors to win the game. I also tried to add constency to the deck by playing 4 brainstorm/3 ponder. I won't even go into the whole Senei's Divinning Top/Doomsday combo since it terrible and now probably not even played with Ad Nauseam.

Since I've played both sytle decks: TES and FT/Iggy Pop; I have to say the TES version is more consistent and faster which you don't rely on mystical tutor resolving to win.

Think about this: Mystical Tutor alone doesn't win the game unlike Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish does if it resolves.

Plus, waiting a full turn in order to go off is such a big deal that doesn't get emphasized enough when playing combo in regards to the drawback of mystical tutor.

The draw effects in the deck helps you find not one card, but multiple cards that allows you to win.

Ponder/Brainstorm = multiple cards

Mystical Tutor = 1 card

On a side note, mystical tutor also lets your opponent have access to more information about your deck.

Jaiminho
12-04-2008, 03:23 PM
Your playing Iggy Pop, so your deck is mostly 2 colors with a splash to play main deck chant. Since the deck can't really support burning wish, you are forced to play mystical tutor which I have done.

There are 2 important facts here. First is that the deck ain't Iggy Pop. Second is that Mystical is better than Wish there, since the former will never grab any acceleration or the most important protection. Neither will it fetch your enablers and win conditions at instant speed using a more reduced casting cost. This last point is what makes the card more or less susceptible to Daze in the not so uncommon cases of using Wish as a setup spell. Obviously, the use of Mystical Tutor to fetch a win condition after chaining rituals and enablers is reduced to when you can actually cast a draw spell after that. After Nauseam, it's usually only limited by the amount of U you have available, but less so if you play Top.



Mystical tutor is a must in this type of list because you have to find your 1 ofs which are in the main deck pre or post game 1 in addition to any rituals/tutors to win the game.

You don't use Mystical because you have 1-ofs in the maindeck. You don't use Wish because you have a wishboard. It's the opposite clause in both cases.



On a side note, mystical tutor also lets your opponent have access to more information about your deck.

I really hope you are comparing Mystical Tutor to Ponder here, not Wish.

Davetradint
12-04-2008, 08:00 PM
I've played the deck for a month or so, I'm not an expert, but the Mystical tutor debate looks like a nonsense.
You are trying to fit this card into a deck that doesn't need the card to perform okay.
TES and ANT work differently, IMHO, so trying to fit MT here looks to me like trying to transform TES into a more ANT thing.
Both decks achieve their goals, TES racing hate and winning by turn 1-2, and ANT laughing at hate, setting up their victory some turns after.
At least, that's what it looks like...
If we begin using MT, then we will make more changes to improve the overall sinergy of the deck with this new addition. Finally we'd get an ANT deck...
That's only my opinion, anyway it's great having people who test every card and every possibilty out there, they are the ones who make this go.

troopatroop
12-04-2008, 11:42 PM
List based on Japanese TES(ish) list (3rd place, there was also a 1st, but I liked this one better)

1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Gemstone Mine


2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Orim's Chant
2 Pact of Negation
4 Rite of Flame

SB:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hull Breach
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Orim's Chant
1 Pact of Negation
1 Pyroclasm
3 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony



I think that's the winning list. If you scroll down to the pictures of the guy who won, its the same guy above this list on the page.

Shriekmaw
12-08-2008, 04:11 PM
I think that's the winning list. If you scroll down to the pictures of the guy who won, its the same guy above this list on the page.


I think you do a disservce to a lot of legacy players by posting terrible decklists. I find the problem quite a bit in some of these threads, where users would just post a decklist without any discussion.

If you truly believe this list is a lot better than the accepted list, please defend where it is better.

troopatroop
12-09-2008, 02:55 AM
I think you do a disservce to a lot of legacy players by posting terrible decklists. I find the problem quite a bit in some of these threads, where users would just post a decklist without any discussion.

If you truly believe this list is a lot better than the accepted list, please defend where it is better.

Okay. In any metagame where you're not playing against blue in the majority of your matchups, I would rather be playing that version of ANT. You will simply goldfish decks without Force of Will with confidence and consistency, the likes of which I do not always feel with TES. Mystical Tutor + LED is amazing against anything not blue. If you have any two lands untapped or anything that can produce mana at instant speed, you WILL win the game next turn. Being able to AdN for more cards on average makes your aggro game stronger and your points of life less precious. It goldfishes an almost effortless turn 3 win, and a very consistent turn 2 win. I'm not saying that TES doesn't also do these things, I just think that this build has given me the most consistent results. The trouble is, Blue is the best color in Legacy, and probably the most played. I'm not saying that this build completely packs it to control, because it still plays protection, but it's strategy is very often to put AdN on top and blow LED during your upkeep. That strategy gets stopped cold by Force, but against anything without it you will always win. They won't always have FOW, and Turn 1 Duress is really good. Pact of Negation is also strong in this.

I'm unsure why you chose to call it a terrible decklist. It won the Okayama side event. We've waited for years to get strong Legacy results from Japan, and now that they drop this combo list in our laps you call it terrible. I've been keeping game logs of some good examples of sample hands that feature things that TES can't do. It was a dozen or so hands in a row without any exclusions, mulligans taken and good notes. Would it be worth it to post them?

FredMaster
12-09-2008, 03:55 AM
It simply looses to Meddling Mage for Burning Wish.

Dark_Cynic87
12-09-2008, 12:36 PM
yeah, and that's extremely common...:rolleyes:

That's pretty much like saying "it pitches to fow".

I've stopped tes by naming burning wish and tendrils with double mage while testing MM in my sideboard of FT. Does that make tes unplayable because I did that? Besides, the list runs a Pyroclasm. I think it needs more hate than just that (so you can board one in and leave the other so you have 10x tutors that can grab it from one area or the other), but most of the time you can tell what decks are packing MM, and sideboard appropriately.

I understand that you are saying that it's poor judgement (and I agree) to not run a kill-spell in your list, but he's arguing from a standpoint of a non-blue format, which eliminates MM as an argument because every list I'm aware of (besides FT that sometimes uses MM) also runs FoW.

Not to mention it's my opinion that if you were to take that list to a tournament, you would be a fool not to include 4x Pyroblast/REB somewhere in the 75 simply because you must acknowledge the fact that you MIGHT face blue.

Pce,

--DC

kroelai
12-09-2008, 12:39 PM
Okay. In any metagame where you're not playing against blue in the majority of your matchups, I would rather be playing that version of ANT. You will simply goldfish decks without Force of Will with confidence and consistency, the likes of which I do not always feel with TES. Mystical Tutor + LED is amazing against anything not blue. If you have any two lands untapped or anything that can produce mana at instant speed, you WILL win the game next turn. Being able to AdN for more cards on average makes your aggro game stronger and your points of life less precious. It goldfishes an almost effortless turn 3 win, and a very consistent turn 2 win. I'm not saying that TES doesn't also do these things, I just think that this build has given me the most consistent results. The trouble is, Blue is the best color in Legacy, and probably the most played. I'm not saying that this build completely packs it to control, because it still plays protection, but it's strategy is very often to put AdN on top and blow LED during your upkeep. That strategy gets stopped cold by Force, but against anything without it you will always win. They won't always have FOW, and Turn 1 Duress is really good. Pact of Negation is also strong in this.

I'm unsure why you chose to call it a terrible decklist. It won the Okayama side event. We've waited for years to get strong Legacy results from Japan, and now that they drop this combo list in our laps you call it terrible. I've been keeping game logs of some good examples of sample hands that feature things that TES can't do. It was a dozen or so hands in a row without any exclusions, mulligans taken and good notes. Would it be worth it to post them?

Yeah, sure, post those notes!

I would recomend one Bouncespell main so you can tutor it.

Shriekmaw
12-09-2008, 01:32 PM
It simply looses.

QFT

troopatroop
12-09-2008, 01:50 PM
It simply looses to Meddling Mage for Burning Wish.

The build of the deck is not mainstream, and until your opponent knows that you're not playing win conditions mainboard, he will/should probably name Orim's Chant. The rogue factor is very real, especially when you're playing sac lands/dual lands because they'll have no idea what they're playing against. If this deck got more popular, you can always maindeck a bounce spell or slaughter pact. This all assumes that he was able to play Meddling Mage before I won in the first place. If I'm on the play, he'll be lucky to get that far. Meddling Mage is better against this build. Yes, but what relevant decks play MM anyways? Is a 2/2 for 2 even worth it anymore? And again, it's blue.


QFT

You lecture me to provide content in my posts, and then say this directly after. My post pointed out that it was the winning list, a fairly important contribution. This is spam. In the DTB.

Nightmare
12-09-2008, 01:53 PM
If your strongest argument is "It's better against decks that don't run blue," then I'm not sold. Either deck should steamroll any deck not playing blue.

troopatroop
12-09-2008, 02:25 PM
If your strongest argument is "It's better against decks that don't run blue," then I'm not sold. Either deck should steamroll any deck not playing blue.

Yes, they should both steamroll non-blue decks, but they don't always. TES can lose to aggro decks by getting unlucky in various ways, but this build is more consistent. LD is less devastating, Discard is worse against you, and Zoos clock becomes less scary (Since you have a much lower curve for AdN and are less likely to fizzle). You have to remember that this deck still has tools to fight the blue decks, and can change its playstyle in those matchups. so the results we need are...

How much better is TES against blue?

vs.

How much better is ANT against non-blue?

If TES is 50-50 against blue and 60-40 against otherstuff, while ANT is 45-55 against blue and 65-35 against otherstuff, I would say that TES is the better deck, because the blue matchups are more relevant. However, if the numbers were a point farther in ANT's favor against non-blue, I would give it the nod. You still have a fighting chance against blue.


Until we get that information, it's hard to quantify the difference. Those questions can't be answered without a couple dozen games against the entire field for both build decks, something that's beyond my means. So I reiterate, I think ANT is a stronger choice in metagames without much blue. If I had more time, or when finals end and I have Christmas Break, I'll try to get some real evidence. Until then I can't offer much more than opinion.

Bryant Cook
12-09-2008, 03:27 PM
Yes, they should both steamroll non-blue decks, but they don't always. TES can lose to aggro decks by getting unlucky in various ways, but this build is more consistent. LD is less devastating, Discard is worse against you, and Zoos clock becomes less scary (Since you have a much lower curve for AdN and are less likely to fizzle). You have to remember that this deck still has tools to fight the blue decks, and can change its playstyle in those matchups. so the results we need are... Bad draws happen in every deck, don't act like they don't happen in the other list. LD, Seriously? We play the same amount of artifact mana and rituals. That's what matters, you having 3 more lands barely makes a difference and decreases your chances of a turn 1/2 win. Where TES could've won because it didn't have lands clogging up it's hand. TES doesn't need to cast Ad Nauseum against Zoo, we play Ill-Gotten Gains, this is how we win our aggro match-ups.


How much better is TES against blue?

vs.

How much better is ANT against non-blue?

TES is much, much better against blue decks. Orim's Chant will always be better against blue than Duress, where the numbers are flopped in each list. Then, post sideboard, they don't play Pyroblast or Vexing Shusher. Making our blue match-ups better.


If TES is 50-50 against blue and 60-40 against otherstuff, while ANT is 45-55 against blue and 65-35 against otherstuff, I would say that TES is the better deck, because the blue matchups are more relevant. However, if the numbers were a point farther in ANT's favor against non-blue, I would give it the nod. You still have a fighting chance against blue. I disagree. Where are you getting these numbers? I want to know what cards are giving you these increases against "Other stuff". Are you forgetting against "other stuff" TES has the Igg-loop and doesn't care about life totals? Where you're locked into that situation, where you have to care about your life.

GoldenCid
12-09-2008, 06:42 PM
It simply looses to Meddling Mage for Burning Wish.

Is it really like that?? Don't you play ad nauseam to get, infernal tutor, tendrils or EtW??

deviant
12-09-2008, 06:51 PM
Is it really like that?? Don't you play ad nauseam to get, infernal tutor, tendrils or EtW??

The list he was referring to did not.
Out of plain curiosity, didn't you even think of checking what post he was referring to?

At least I double-checked he wasn't wrong with that statement..

GoldenCid
12-09-2008, 07:32 PM
The list he was referring to did not.
Out of plain curiosity, didn't you even think of checking what post he was referring to?

At least I double-checked he wasn't wrong with that statement..

Yeah my bad! It was because i had in mind my decklist which is similar to Larmer's one:

4 [AN] City of Brass ()
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine ()
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard ()
1 [MR] Glimmervoid ()

3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide ()
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains ()
4 Dark Ritual ()
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony ()
4 [CS] Rite of Flame ()
4 [PS] Orim's Chant ()
4 [TE] Lotus Petal ()
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond ()
4 [MM] Brainstorm ()
4 [JU] Burning Wish ()
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor ()
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual ()
3 [MR] Chrome Mox ()
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam ()
4 [LRW] Ponder ([B]here i'm not really sure if run this or mystical tutor)

Sideboard (15)

1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens ()
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains ()
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony ()
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens ()
3 [GP] Shattering Spree ()
4 [R] Red Elemental Blast ()
1 [7E] Pyroclasm ()
4 [US] Duress ()

i'm a bit noob playing this deck and i'm that you will give useful suggestions to improve this list.
I like this but comments are needed and welcomed specially in SB. Vexing shusher is really needed against blue control?
And by the way...how do we deal with trinisphere???

deviant
12-11-2008, 05:07 AM
We Shattering Spree it?

matelml
12-11-2008, 06:24 AM
If your opponent cats a Trinisphere, you have about 85% chance of losing, unless you already Wished for SSpree, which isn't unreasonable in Stax/Dragonstompy matchups.

GoldenCid
12-11-2008, 09:44 AM
If your opponent cats a Trinisphere, you have about 85% chance of losing, unless you already Wished for SSpree, which isn't unreasonable in Stax/Dragonstompy matchups.

With a trinisphere in play shattering spree cost (3), so...we are in a big problem...

And by the way....how is the matchup against other fast combo decks such as ichorid??

myselves
12-11-2008, 01:14 PM
And by the way....how is the matchup against other fast combo decks such as ichorid??

Ichorid is no fastcombo.
Ichorid looks quite good, chant them in response to the trigger of his narcomoeba so you get rid of a fast kill by his side or a lot of therapy actions.
also wish->returns shines here.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that you're faster in the goldfish.

The ANT MU depends on their build, till now I would say it's a lil bit in TES favor, maybe 55-45 or anything like this.
Mindgaming around O.Chant can win, but this alos depends on their playskill.

Jaiminho
12-11-2008, 02:53 PM
The ANT MU depends on their build, till now I would say it's a lil bit in TES favor, maybe 55-45 or anything like this.
Mindgaming around O.Chant can win, but this alos depends on their playskill.

Both decks will use Duresses to cry and clear the way off threats, Duresses and Chants. The thing is that ANT runs 4 Duresses and 4 Mystical Tutors. The longer the game goes, more advantage ANT gets over TES. Postboard, TES has Pyroblasts to screw ANT's setup (most importantly, Mystical Tutor), but that's about it. It will still have access to less protection.

Nightmare
12-11-2008, 02:55 PM
Both decks will use Duresses to cry and clear the way off threats, Duresses and Chants. The thing is that ANT runs 4 Duresses and 4 Mystical Tutors. The longer the game goes, more advantage ANT gets over TES. Postboard, TES has Pyroblasts to screw ANT's setup (most importantly, Mystical Tutor), but that's about it. It will still have access to less protection.

Except for the fact that their protection serves double duty as reactive disruption...

GoldenCid
12-12-2008, 09:09 AM
I still have answers about how we deal with enchantmant and creatures:

Enchantments:
Pyrostatic pillar
Rule of law
Arcane laboratory
Runed halo
Worship

Creatures:
Ethersworn Canonist
Gaddock teeg

What can i do?

I run a death mark in the SB to wish it, but for enchantments what do you recomend tranquility, hull breach, other???

Hopo
12-12-2008, 09:23 AM
For troublesome enchantments:
Tranquility
Hull Breach
Cleanfall
Serenity
bounce

Serenity is my current favorite, as it is sweet also against chalice/thorn of amethyst/countertop and lets you combo with everything untapped.

For creatures:
Deathmark
Slaughter Pact
Pyroclasm
Grapeshot (usually not compatible with Canonist)

GoldenCid
12-12-2008, 09:43 AM
For troublesome enchantments:
Tranquility
Hull Breach
Cleanfall
Serenity
bounce

Serenity is my current favorite, as it is sweet also against chalice/thorn of amethyst/countertop and lets you combo with everything untapped.

For creatures:
Deathmark
Slaughter Pact
Pyroclasm
Grapeshot (usually not compatible with Canonist)

The bold cards are the only wisheables which was my original idea.
Here i found a card that maybe useful for my aims: Gleeful Sabotage
What do you think?

Bryant Cook
12-12-2008, 11:04 AM
I still have answers about how we deal with enchantmant and creatures:

Enchantments:
Pyrostatic pillar
Rule of law
Arcane laboratory
Runed halo
Worship

Creatures:
Ethersworn Canonist
Gaddock teeg

What can i do?

I run a death mark in the SB to wish it, but for enchantments what do you recomend tranquility, hull breach, other???

These are all sideboard cards, board in your Chain of Vapors and bounce them. Gleeful Sabotage is bad, it gets hit by counterbalance like none other.

GoldenCid
12-12-2008, 11:48 AM
These are all sideboard cards, board in your Chain of Vapors and bounce them. Gleeful Sabotage is bad, it gets hit by counterbalance like none other.

What is your actual sideboard?? Could you explian the why of each one?? Thx!!

Arsenal
12-12-2008, 11:50 AM
What is your actual sideboard?? Could you explian the why of each one?? Thx!!

Bryant kindly posted his current list, it's on the 1st page on this thread.

GoldenCid
12-12-2008, 11:57 AM
Bryant kindly posted his current list, it's on the 1st page on this thread.

Ok!! Thx!! Is vexing shusher really needed if we run 4x chant + 3x pyroblast sb?? Wouldn't it be better if we cut 2 shusher in favour of 2 chain of vapor or +1 pyroblast +1 chain of vapor??

Arsenal
12-12-2008, 12:03 PM
Ok!! Thx!! Is vexing shusher really needed if we run 4x chant + 3x pyroblast sb?? Wouldn't it be better if we cut 2 shusher in favour of 2 chain of vapor or +1 pyroblast +1 chain of vapor??

I would imagine Shusher is there to bolster blue based matchups where CounterTop is keeping you at bay. CoV and Pyro don't do much versus an active CounterTop, but Shusher can realistically turn the tide.

Bryant Cook
12-12-2008, 12:24 PM
Opening post is completely updated. New decklists, links, sample hands, and sample hands for you.

Whit3 Ghost
12-13-2008, 02:17 PM
Gemstone Mine, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Burning Wish.
Play Mine, Petal. Cast Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor for the second LED. Cast both LEDs and use the mana floating from the Ritual and the Petal to cast Infernal Tutor, cracking both LEDs. Get IGG. Win.

Brainstorm, Ponder, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox.
Mox imprinting Brainstorm, Pomder. Ponder reveals Brainstorm, LED, Burning Wish. Draw the Wish, and put Brainstorm on top of your Library (Don't worry about the LED, as you will Brainstorm into it.). Pass turn. Next turn, Brainstorm into LED and 2 City of Brass. Put back a land and the Wish. Play both LEDs, Ritual, and SSG, Infernal, crack both LEDs, win.

Ponder, Gemstone Mine, Ad Nauseum, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Ponder, Chrome Mox.
Personally, I don't like this hand as it doesn't really do much until turn 3 and that is highly dependent of how good your Ponders are.
I mulled into Burning Wish, IT, City, Mine, Ponder, LED. I started out with Mine, Ponder->Shuffle and draw a Rite of Flame. Next turn, I draw Brainstorm and proceed to Brainstorm into two lands and a Cabal Ritual. Unfortunately, I'm short on initial mana sources so I have to wait until turn three to combo. However, it was definitely a faster kill than I would have gotten with the first hand as my Ponders were awful.

Burning Wish, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Brainstorm.
Petal->Brainstorm into Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, LED. Put back the Mox and the Ritual. Cast 3 Rites off of the SSG and play the LED. Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns floating 3 Red and a Blue. Draw Tendrils, Rite, Rite, City of Brass, Lotus Petal, IT, Brainstorm. Cast Brainstorm and both Rites, cast whatever you can off of the Brainstorm to up the storm count, then play the land and the Petal and cast a massive Tendrils.


City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Ad Nauseum, Chrome Mox.
This is definitely a mull. If those Moxes were Petals, this would be a keepable hand. Anyway, I mulled into Brainstorm, Petal, 2 Mines, Ad Nauseum and Burning Wish. Brainstorm into LED, Wish, Mox. Here's where it gets techy. Put the Nauseum on top of your library with the Mine under it. Cast LED, Mox with a BWish Imprint and Petal and pass the turn. On your next upkeep, break LED and use 2 of the other sources to add 5 mana to your pool. Draw Ad Nauseum and play it (isn't instant speed great?). I drew too many cards to remember it all, but there was enough initial mana sources to cast Duress, Chant, 2 cantrips and multiple Rites and Rituals.

Pulp_Fiction
12-13-2008, 02:34 PM
I have asked that question to numerous people and all have said that you can't do that. If you break LED during your upkeep the mana empties at the end of your upkeep. And if you break LED during your drawstep the mana still empties because drawing a card ends your draw step. I know you can't break it during your upkeep but it would make sense if you could break LED with drawing a card on the stack but I still don't think you can do that. Does anyone know if that is accurate?

Julian23
12-13-2008, 02:39 PM
Sorry Pulp Fiction but you are totally mistaken. Mana pools empty at end of Phases, not Steps. Thus you can take your mana from your Upkeep Step to your Draw Step. And second: Your draw step doesnt END once you draw the card but actually really just STARTS after that; you receive priority for the 1st time during your draw step right AFTER you drew the card, nothing you can do about it.

I really wanna urge you not to trust "numerous" people on rules issues who obviously have no idea.

Pinder
12-13-2008, 03:05 PM
Opening post is completely updated. New decklists, links, sample hands, and sample hands for you.

Sample hands, and sample hands? You spoil us. Also, Julian23 is right on all counts regarding floating mana from upkeep into draw, and recieving priority during your draw step.

TeKo
12-13-2008, 03:13 PM
sample hands and sample hands for us!


Sample Hand One:
Infernal Tutor, Gemstone Mine, Duress, Dark Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Lion’s Eye Diamond.
[Keep]
Gemstone Mine, Dark Ritual, Duress.
Remove Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame .
Lion’s Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor. Break Lion’s Eye Diamond [BBBBR]
Search for Ad Nauseum: Cast it. [Storm 6, 0 Floating]
Reveal: Simian Spirit Guide, Gemstone Mine, Ad Nauseum, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Chrome Mox, Burning Wish, Lion’s Eye Diamond. STOP.
Remove Simian Spirit Guide, play Chrome Mox [Imprint: Ad Nauseum], Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual [BBBBBB], Lion’s Eye Diamond, Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony.

Notice: Here, you have a lot of options. I choose the simplest. No need to crack Lion’s Eye Diamond incase they have a Stifle.You could Ill-Gotten Gains loop 3 times for storm, then Grapeshot them (one of my favorites).

[B]Sample Hand Two:
Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame.
[Keep]
Gemstone Mine, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor.
Search for Ill-Gotten Gains. Cast it. [Storm 6]
Get back Infernal Tutor, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lion’s Eye Diamond.
Cast them all, Tendrils of Agony for 20.

Sample Hands For You
Gemstone Mine, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Burning Wish.

Brainstorm, Ponder, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox.

Ponder, Gemstone Mine, Ad Nauseum, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Ponder, Chrome Mox.

Burning Wish, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Brainstorm.

City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Ad Nauseum, Chrome Mox.

Pulp_Fiction
12-13-2008, 05:17 PM
Sorry Pulp Fiction but you are totally mistaken. Mana pools empty at end of Phases, not Steps. Thus you can take your mana from your Upkeep Step to your Draw Step. And second: Your draw step doesnt END once you draw the card but actually really just STARTS after that; you receive priority for the 1st time during your draw step right AFTER you drew the card, nothing you can do about it.

I really wanna urge you not to trust "numerous" people on rules issues who obviously have no idea.

Awesome, I am glad I know that now. No joke, I would swear I heard one of the people who judges at our local shop say you couldn't do that. Either way I am very happy to be wrong and that isvery useful to know that. It makes Mystical Tutor that much better!

Citrus-God
12-13-2008, 05:36 PM
Gemstone Mine, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Burning Wish.

Gemstone Mine, tap for one black, Dark Ritual, BBB floating, cast Infernal Tutor revealing LED, then cast two LEDs and the Lotus Petal, sac Lotus Pedal and cast Infernal Tutor in which you respond by cracking both LEDs and make a Ill-Gotten Gains loop ftw.


Brainstorm, Ponder, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox.

Cast Chrome Mox imprinting Brainstorm, then cast Ponder off the Chrome Mox and see if you can find any acceleration, Ad Nauseums, or 2c Tutors. If you find acceleration, you combo out using Infernal Tutor. If you find 2c Tutors, you cast the Infernal Tutor in your hand for the 2nd LED, and if you find Ad Nauseum, you just win.


Ponder, Gemstone Mine, Ad Nauseum, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Ponder, Chrome Mox.

I'd mulligan this hand; it sucks. I dont need to explain it because White Ghost did it for me.


Burning Wish, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Brainstorm.

I'd cast Chrome Mox imprinting Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, remove SSG and cast both Rite of Flames, tap my Mox and Petal for UURRRR floating in which I empty my mana pool to cast Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns.


City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Ad Nauseum, Chrome Mox.

I'd mull this band. White Ghost already covered this though.

GreenOne
12-14-2008, 07:16 AM
Ponder reveals Brainstorm, LED, Burning Wish
Ponder->Shuffle and draw a Rite of Flame.
Brainstorm into two lands and a Cabal Ritual
Brainstorm into Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, LED.
Brainstorm into LED, Wish, Mox.
Damn, my ability to draw relevant cards from cantrips is really at lower levels. I guess this is why I don't find Mystical to be such an awful card. :smile:

emidln
12-16-2008, 12:24 AM
Gemstone Mine, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Burning Wish.

Mine, Petal, Dark Rit (BBB), Infernal Tutor (B) revealing LED, LED, LED, Infernal Tutor breaking LEDs to find IGG, IGG for LED, LED, Infernal Tutor, LED, LED, Infernal Tutor breaking LEDs for Tendrils, Tendrils with 9 storm.


Brainstorm, Ponder, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox.

Chrome Mox imprinting Brainstorm, Ponder looking for a black source (any Land or Lotus Petal). Upon finding a black source play Dark Rit, RFG SSG for R, LED, Infernal Tutor breaking for BBB to find Ad Nauseam. Proceed to draw a billion cards and win.


Ponder, Gemstone Mine, Ad Nauseum, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Ponder, Chrome Mox.

For a straight goldfish I'd mull this. If i did keep it, I would lead with Ponder off Gemstone Mine hoping to see two mana sources. As long as you see at least one mana source, you still set yourself up for a turn 3 (maybe turn 2 depending how good the 2nd ponder is) with turn 2 Ponder.


Burning Wish, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Brainstorm.

I'd go all in on a Diminishing Returns here. That's RFG SSG for R, play Rite, play Rite, Lotus Petal, Mox imprinting Brainstorm, Diminishing Returns forcing my opp to mull and seeing a new 7 (likely passing the turn) but with a mana source already in play.


City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Ad Nauseum, Chrome Mox.

I'd have to mull this because in the unlikely chance that you draw another land (the MWS shuffler effect) you end up not doing anything until turn 4 at the earliest on the play (assuming you don't rip another mana source).

GreenOne
12-16-2008, 11:50 AM
I did some testing on the Mystical Tutor issue to have statistically provable of what is better in goldfish between Mystical Tutor and Ponder.

This took me a lot of time, so I'd be glad if someone can help in doing this testing. 20 hands are not much for a statistical prove.

Conditions:
- On the play in every hand. This should not modify the results much.
- All hands are goldfishes.
- I threw away every hand that did not contain a Ponder/Mystical
- All hands are preside. Obviously Mystical should be better postside, when it can fetch your sided in bullets.
- Testing was made with the random hand generator on mws.
- I took bryant's list on the first page.
- Every hand that I considered a mulligan was thrown away. However, those hands are listed at the bottom of the post.
- If there's general consensus a hand should be mulled/played in a different way that hand should be discarded or played in a different way.
- If there's general consensus a hand should be played instead of be mulled, this hand should be played and should be in testing results.

This is my testing:
1- Gemstone Mine, Ad Nauseam, Cabal Ritual, CoB, Ponder, Duress, Duress
M: Mystical for Dark ritual and combo on turn 2.
P: Ponder Reveals Chrome Mox, Petal, Wish. Shuffle and draw IT
Mystical is better

2- Rite of flame, orim, Mox, 2x Gemstone, Brainstorm, Ponder.
M: Brainstorm + mystical allows me for a turn 3 AN with zero in pool
P: I play ponder, then brainstorm. End up with a turn 3 AN with B in pool
Ponder is better.

3- CoB, AN, IT, 2xPetal,Wish, Ponder
M: Mystical for Dark Ritual allows a turn 2 AN with zero in pool
P: Ponder finds dark ritual+LED, and allows for a turn 2 AN with 3 in pool.
Ponder is better

4. Orchard, CoB, Cabal, Orim, Petal, IT, Ponder
M: Turn 1 nothing, Turn 2 draw LED, Play IT for Led, Mystical in upkeep. Win turn 3 with IGG or AN, at choice.
P: Ponder reveals LED, Wish, Ponder. Take wish, draw Led, Combo on turn 2 with IGG Loop
Ponder is better.

5. D. Rit, CoB, 2x Rite of flame, Mox, Ponder, Brainstorm.
M: Brainstorm into Rite of flame, Led, Wis. Put back mystical and dark ritual. Returns FTW.
P:Ponder reveals Burning Wish, Rite of flame, LED. Take led. Turn 2 Draw burning wish. Returns ftw.
I guess those are the same if you want to play brainstorm first, but with that hand I'd play the ponder first.
Mystical is slightly better.

6. Ponder, IT, Cob, Paradise, Brainstorm, Petal, Orim
M: Brainstorm into LED, LED, AN. Combo turn 2 with IGG or AN.
P: Ponder into LED, LED, AN. COmbo turn 2 with IGG or AN.
P=M

7. Ponder, D.rit, CoB, Rite of flame, Gemstone, Mox, Brainstorm.
M: Brainstorm into Rite of flame, D.Rit and Petal. Put back 2x rite of flame. Mystical on upkeep for AN, combo on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Rite of flame, D.rit, petal. Shuffle and draw Paradise. Draw D.rit Brainstorm into nothing and lose. If I played Brainstorm first then Ponder I could combo on turn 7.
Mystical is better.

8. 2x D.Rit, duress, petal, Cabal rit, AN, Ponder
Obviusly combo turn 1 with duress protection.
M=P

9. IT, Orim, Ponder, CoB, LED, AN, Duress.
M: first turn duress, draw brainstorm. Play brainstorm into Gemstone, Crhome, AN. Put AN on top and win with AN on turn 3 or with IGG loop with Mystical for D.Rit.
P: Same. Win with AN on turn 3.
Mystical is slightly better cause it allows IGG combo too if you're low on life.

10: Lotus petal, Ponder, Brainstom, D.Rit, Cabal Rit, Led, IGG.
M: This hand is keepable. You need to draw a Petal, D.rit, Cabal rit, Led, IT to win, or a land to be in a good position. Draw petal and win on turn 2.
P: This hand is a mull.
Mystical was better.

11: CoB, Petal, 2x Brainstorm, RoF, C.Ritual, Ponder
M: Play brainstorm into AN, Ponder, Brainstorm. Put back ponder and BS. Mystical for D.rit and combo on turn 3 with AN
P: Play brainstorm. Put back ponder and BS. Draw Ponder, Play ponder, shuffle and draw IT. Draw Tendrils, play Brainstorm into Mox,Mox Wish. Combo with AN on turn 4.
Mystical is better.

12: CoB, Duress, Duress, AN, Brainstorm, Ponder, C.Rit.
M: Play duress. Draw lotus petal. Mystical for D.Rit and combo on turn 3 with AN.
P: Play duress. Play Ponder, Draw land, play brainstorm into Mox, IT, Mox. Combo on turn 3 with AN.
M=P

13: Gemstone mine, Lotus petal, Orimx2, Ponder, LED, Cabal ritual
M: Mystical for AN and win on turn 2.
P: Ponder into SSG, IGG, Rite of flame. Shuffle and draw IGG. Damn. Combo out 4 turns later.
Mystical is better.

14: Petal, Cabal, Ponder, SSG, Dark ritual, CoB, Wish
M: Mystical for AN, Win on turn 2
P: Ponder into LED, Brainstorm, Wish. Draw LED and combo successfully with Diminishing returns UB open.
Ponder is better

15: Gemstone Mine, Ponder, Orim, CoBx2, D.Rit, Rite of flame.
M: Mystical for AN, win on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Rite of flame, d.rit, Gemstone. Shuffle and draw petal. Then draw orim, Orim.
Mystical is better

16: 2x Gemstone, 2x Ponder, Wish, Petal, Brainstorm.
M: Brainstorm into Rite of flame, Dark ritual, Orchard. Mystical for AN and win on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Rite of Flame, D. rit, Orchard. Draw Rit. Pass. Draw other rit, ponder into Led, Rit, Land. Draw Led, go for Returns with UB open. I fizzle, but this should not be taken into account.
P=M

17. D. rit, Duress, Crome mox, CoB, IGG, LED, Ponder
M: Turn 1 Duress+ Mystical into AN. Win on turn 2.
P: Ponder reveals AN. Same as above.
P=M

18. Mine, AN, Petal, Ponder, Orim, D.Rit, Brainstorm
M: Mystical for Dark ritual and combo with AN on turn 2
P: Ponder into Rite of flamex2, wish. Combo on turn 2 with AN.
P=M

19. Rite of flame, Duress, CoB, 2x Mox, Ponder, D.rit.
M: Turn 1 duress, draw LED. Mystical for AN and combo turn 2.
P: Turn 1 duress, Draw LED. Ponder into Paradise, Rite of flame, Cabal. Shuffle and draw brainstorm. Draw Wish and combo on turn 2 with Returns with UB open. Fizzle again but this doesn't count.
P=M

20. Mine, Ponder, ITx2, Petal, Rite of flame, Cabal ritual
M: Turn 1 nothing. draw Rite of flame. Mystical for AN. Combo on turn 3.
P: Ponder into Rite of flame, LED, Dark ritual. Draw Ritual. Pass. Draw led and combo on turn 2 with IGG loop or AN.
Ponder was better.

Results:
Better Mystical: 8
Better Ponder: 5
Same: 7

Unkeepable / questionable hands:
- Duress, IT, ToA, Ponder, Orim, Wish, Petal.
- 2x Gemstone, 2x Ponder, Wish, Petal, Brainstorm.
- Petal, IT, Ponder, Brainstorm, IGG, Cob, Gemstone. (I would have played this one with Mystical but not with ponder)
- 2x Rite of flame, 2 lands, IT, Ponder, Tendrils
- 2x Cob, 2x Brainstorm, Ponder, chrome mox, Orim (This hand resulted in a turn 3 AN with Mystical and a turn 5 AN with Ponder)
- 3xBrainstorm, Petal, AN, Wish, Ponder
- Ponder, Wish, Cabal, Brainstorm, Rite of flame, LED, Petal
- IT x2, Wish, Paradise, SSG, Ponder, AN


Please, help me in doing this testing. I will not have time to get all these data.

Corwin
12-16-2008, 01:00 PM
I have a question, can you use Shattering Spree to increase your storm count if you don't have any artifacts to target? I guess not, but it's better to ask.

Nihil Credo
12-16-2008, 01:16 PM
@Corwin: No, you need a legal target to play it.

@GreenOne: That sounds interesting. Even though I'm awful with storm combo, I'll do a batch of ten.

21: Gemstone Mine, Infernal, P/M, LED, LED, Brainstorm, Cabal
P: Ponder into LED, Brainstorm, Rite of Flame. Shuffle, draw Rite of Flame. Untap, draw LED#3. Brainstorm into Chant, IGG, Brainstorm. Put back Brainstorm and IGG. Untap, draw Brainstorm, play 3x LED, play Brainstorm, blow LEDs in response, play IGG with LED mana, win.
M: Mystical for Ad Nauseam, double LED, on next upkeep Brainstorm to put Nauseam and the third LED on top, blow LEDs, Ad Nauseam into a win.

Mystical was better.

22: Nauseam, Mox, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, P/M, Wish, Cabal
P: Mox imprinting Brainstorm, Ponder seeing Mine, Ritual, Ponder. Draw Mine and play it, draw Ritual next turn, play Ad Nauseam, win.
M: Brainstorm into the same plays as above. I think with Mystical you'd probably mulligan though, since there aren't good Mystical targets and a bad Brainstorm means almost GG.

23: Ritex2, Infernal x2, P/M, Wish, Nauseam

Mulligan.

23: Mine, Chant, Chant, Cabal, SSG, Nauseam, P/M
P: Ponder into LED, SSG, Rite, draw Rite of Flame. Next turn draw SSG, cast Ad Nauseam, win.
M: Mystical for Dark Ritual, play Ad Nauseam on turn two, win.

Same.

24 - Mine, Mine, Rite, Led, Brainstorm x2, P/M.
P: Mine, Brainstorm into Mox, Infernal, Wish, put back Brainstorm and Mine. T2 play Mine, Ponder seeing Brainstorm, LED, Petal, take LED, Mox -> Wish, play Rite, play LED x2, Infernal into IGG win.
M: Mine, Brainstorm into Mox, Infernal, Wish, put back Wish and Mine, play Mox-> Brainstorm, play LED, EOT Mystical for Ad Nauseam. On upkeep get five mana, cast Nauseam in the draw step, *barely* win (had to Nausea twice in potentially lethal range).

Ponder is somewhat better.

25 - Mox x2, Orchard, Mine, Duress, IGG, P/M

Mulligan.

25 - 3x P/M, Petal, Ritual, Wish, Infernal

Mulligan (*maybe* not with Ponder, but certainly with Mystical)

25 - City, LED, Dark Ritual, P/M, Duress, Wish, Infernal
P: Ponder into City, Ponder, Dark Ritual, draw City. Next turn draw Ritual, play Duress, play 2x Ritual, LED, Tutor into IGG loop.
M: Mystical for another Dark Ritual, same as above but must play a Dark Ritual before the Duress.

P slightly better.

26 - Mox, P/M, Dark Ritual x2, LED, SSG, Rite

This is hard to keep - it does nothing on its own, but the majority of draws enable it to go off. Either way, if I were to keep it, I would draw Ad Nauseam and the P/M would be discarded to LED in response to AN.

27 - City, Mox, LED, Wish x2, Rite, P/M

In both cases, I Wish into turn 1 Diminishing Returns (storm five). This draws LED x2, Petal, Ritual, Infernal, Chant, and another irrelevant P/M.

28 - Tendrils, Brainstorm, P/M, Mox, LED, Petal, Infernal
P: Mox pitching Brainstorm, Ponder into LED, Chant, City, draw City. Next turn draw LED and do the IGG loop.
M: Mystical for Ad Nauseam, turn 2 win (by IGG returning Tendrils).

29 - Infernal x2, Nauseam, LED, P/M, City, Wish
P: Ponder seeing Ritual, City, Chant. Turn 2 Ad Nauseam and win.
M: Mystical for Dark Ritual. Turn 2 Ad Nauseam and win.

30 - Mine x2, City, Mox x2, Dark Ritual, P/M.

Mulligan. Barring a broken Ponder I'm sitting on my ass for 2-3 turns.

30 - Brainstorm x2, P/M, SSG, Wish, Infernal, Chant

Mulligan.

30 - Mine, Dark Ritual, LED, Duress, Wish, Infernal, P/M.
P: Mine -> Ponder into Brainstorm x2, Tendrils. Shuffle, draw Tendrils. Turn 2 draw Dark Ritual, play your mana, Duress, Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam, play three more spells and cast the Tendrils.
M: Mystical Ad Nauseam, turn two Ad Nauseam.

Ponder is better (protection).

Maveric78f
12-16-2008, 01:16 PM
No but you can target the petal you use to produce the red mana.

GreenOne
12-16-2008, 07:24 PM
21: Gemstone Mine, Infernal, P/M, LED, LED, Brainstorm, Cabal
P: Ponder into LED, Brainstorm, Rite of Flame. Shuffle, draw Rite of Flame. Untap, draw LED#3. Brainstorm into Chant, IGG, Brainstorm. Put back Brainstorm and IGG. Untap, draw Brainstorm, play 3x LED, play Brainstorm, blow LEDs in response, play IGG with LED mana, win.
M: Mystical for Ad Nauseam, double LED, on next upkeep Brainstorm to put Nauseam and the third LED on top, blow LEDs, Ad Nauseam into a win.

Mystical was better.

In this case you could mystical for Dark Ritual and go for the IGG route for a sure win. Anyway, Mystical is better.


29 - Infernal x2, Nauseam, LED, P/M, City, Wish
P: Ponder seeing Ritual, City, Chant. Turn 2 Ad Nauseam and win.
M: Mystical for Dark Ritual. Turn 2 Ad Nauseam and win.

I don't see how you can Mystical for Rit and win. You have to wait a turn to draw a SSG, land, Mox, Petal and win next turn. You draw dark ritual. Mystical for D. Rit at EOT and go for the IGG loop.
Ponder is better here.


30 - Mine, Dark Ritual, LED, Duress, Wish, Infernal, P/M.
P: Mine -> Ponder into Brainstorm x2, Tendrils. Shuffle, draw Tendrils. Turn 2 draw Dark Ritual, play your mana, Duress, Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam, play three more spells and cast the Tendrils.
M: Mystical Ad Nauseam, turn two Ad Nauseam.

Ponder is better (protection).
With ponder you have to discard your hand with tendrils in it. So I suppose one of those 3 spells was Wish :wink:


EDIT: Done some more testing:

31. Rite of flame, Petal, CoB, D.Rit, Ponder, IT, Cabal rit.
M: Mystical for dark ritual and IGG loop or AN at choice on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Gemstone mine, Wish, Dark ritual. Same as above on turn 2.

Same

32. Rite of flame, 2xD.Rit, Infernal, Ponder, Cabal rit.

Questionable hand. In both cases, I draw LED and IGG for the win on turn 2.

Same.

33. Petal, Ponder, Brainstorm, AN, LED, Mox, ROF.
M: Mox, Imprint Mystical, Brainstorm into Dark ritual, Cabal ritual, WIsh. Put back Rite of flame and wish. Combo on turn 2 with AN.
P: Same as above.

Same.

34. Petal, Ponder, Ponder, Orim, D. Rit, LED, IT
M: Play nothing, go. Draw mine, play mystical for D.RIT, IGG loop on turn 3.
P: Petal into ponder, showing Mine, LED, Wish. Draw mine. Draw LED, Win with IGG loop on turn 2.

Ponder is better.

35. Rite of flame, 3x gemstone, Ponder, SSG, IT
Questionable hand.
M: do nothing on turn 1. Draw mox. Mystical for AN, combo on turn 3 with AN
P: Ponder reveals Mox, COB, Brainstorm. Shuffle and draw Petal. Draw D.Rit. Draw Mox. Combo with AN on turn 3.

Same.

36. CoB, Mine, 3x D.Rit, Led, Ponder
M: Mystical for AN or IT. Win on turn 2 with it.
P: Ponder see Ponder, AN, RoF. Draw Rite of flame. Combo with AN on turn 2.

Same.

37. LED, D.Rit, Brainstorm, CoB, Ponder, 2xIT
M: Mystical for D.Rit or AN and win on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Ponder, Wish, Cabal Ritual. Draw Ponder, Draw Cabal and win on turn 2 with AN. Or you can ponder into Wish, land,land. Draw land and go for the IGG loop for 9 storm+ tendrils.

Same.

38. Mine, Duress, Duress, Ponder, LED, Wish, CoB
M: Mystical for D.Rit and combo turn 2 with Diminishing returns (B or U open).
P: Ponder into Wish, Cabal, Rite of flame. Draw rite, draw cabal and combo with Dinimishing Returns (B or U open) on turn 2.

Same.

39. Mox, Brainstorm, Ponder, RoF, IGG, D.Rit, Orchard
M: Brainstorm into AN, SSG, Mine. Put back Mine and Ponder, Play AN.
P: Same as Above.

Same.

40. Ponder, Orim, Mox, RoF, IT, IT, Duress.
Mulligan
40. LED, CoB, Ponder, RoF, Brainstorm, IT, Orim.
M: Brainstorm into Mox, D.Rit, LED. Win on turn 2 with IGG loop or AN
P: Same as above.

Same

41. 2x D.Rit, SSG, IT, Orim, Ponder, Mox
Mull
41. Duress, 2xCoB, Petal, Ponder, IT, LED
M: Mystical for D.Rit and combo on turn 2 with AN or IGG loop.
P: ponder into Petal, Mine, Ponder. Shuffle and draw Mox. Draw brainstorm and play it. Find Brainstorm, IT, Orchard. Put back Orchard and petal. Play mox(brainstorm), IT revealing LED. Nest turn Duress+IGG loop or AN.

Mystical is better.

42. Wish, Petal, CoB, Paradis, D.Rit, Ponder, AN.
M: Mystical for D.Rit, combo with AN on turn 2.
P; Ponder reveals Wish, Wish, Brainstorm. Shuffle and draw Petal. Draw Orim. Combo turn 2 with AN + chant.

Ponder is better (chant)

43. CoB, Petal, Wish, Wish, Ponder, D.Rit, Petal
M: Mystical for AN, win on turn 2.
P: Ponder into SSG, AN, RoF. Draw simian, Draw An and win.

Same.

44. AN, D.Rit, IT, Cabal rit, Orim, Ponder, ponder.
Mull
44. Brainstorm, duressx2, d.rit, IGG, Ponder, AN
Mull
44. Ponder, AN, 2xCoB, 2x Mine, Wish.
Questionable but keepable.
M: Turn 1 nothing. Draw orim. Mystical for D.Rit and win on turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder reveals Orim, IT, Led. Draw It. Draw Led. Play IT for LED. Combo on turn 3 with IGG Loop or D. Returns.

Ponder is slightly better: AN on turn 3 might be risky against certain decks.

45. Wish, Mox, RoF, Minex2, Braisntorm, Ponder.
M: Brainstorm into IT, Petal, Gemstone. Put gemstone and IT back. Mystical for AN and win on turn 3.
P: ponder into IT, Petal, Gemstone. Shuffle and draw Petal. Play brainstorm into Brainstorm, Led, D.Rit. Combo with Diminishing Returns on turn 2 with UB open.

Ponder is better.

46. Ponder, Orim, Orim, AN, LED, Paradise, SSG.
Mull.
46. D.Rit, SSG, Cabal, CoB, Mox, Ponder, Rite of flame
M: Mystical into AN, Win turn 2.
P: Ponder into Paradise, RoF, LED. Shuffle and draw Orim. Draw Brainstorm. Brainstorm into Mine, Mine, RoF. Lose.

Mystical is better.

47. Brainstorm, IT, Mine, CoBx2, ponder, Wish
M: Brainstorm into Mox, D.Rit, Petal. Put back Wish and CoB. Upkeep mystical for AN and win turn 2.
P: Ponder into Mox, D.Rit, Petal. Draw petal, draw D.Rit. Brainstorm into Mox, AN, D.Rit and win with AN.

Same.

48. Ponder, SSGx2, Petal, Rite of flame, Orim
M: Mystical for AN, win on turn 2.
P: Ponder reveals LED, Mox, COB. Shuffle into Dark ritual. Draw orim and pass. Draw duress, draw mox, draw IT and win on turn 5.

Mystical is better.

49. CoB, D.Ritx2, Rite of flame, Ponder, LED, Duress.
M: Mystical for IT or AN and win on turn 2 with IGG or AN+duress
P: Ponder for IT,Ponder, D.RIt. Draw D.rit, draw IT and win on turn 2 with AN or IGG + duress.

Same.

50. AN, Mox, IGG, Brainstorm, Ponder, Orim, Gemstone.
M: Brainstorm for Orim, Orim, RoF. Put back 2 orim. Mystical for D.Rit, combo on turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder for Orim, Orim, RoF. Shuffle and draw duress. Draw Orim. Play brainstorm into CoB, Mox, Orim. Put back 2 orim and lose.

Mystical is better.

51. Petal, Brainstorm, Ponder, D.Ritual, Duress, Cabal ritual, Mox
Questionable hand. First 3 cards are IT,IT,Mox. Mull.

51. Mine, IT, Ponder, Chant, Mox, Wish, CoB.
Questionable hand, does nothing ever unless you draw some good piece of acceleration.

51. Cabal, SSG, Ponder, Duress, LED, AN, Brainstorm
If you draw a land/Mox you'r going to win on turn 3 with AN (in the mystical version). But I don't like those chances. Mull again.

51. Orchard, Duress, Mox, Cob, Cob, AN, Ponder
M: Mystical for D.Rit and win turn 2 with AN
P: ponder into Wish, Wish, Rite of flame. Shuffle and draw ponder. Draw LED. Ponder reveal LED, Brainstorm, Mox. Draw brainstorm, put AN on top and win next turn.

Mystical is better

52. Cabal Ritual, IGG, Brainstorm, Duress, Ponder, Petal, CoB.
M: Play brainstorm into brainstorm, IT, AN. Put back brainstorm e igg. Mystical for D.RIt in upkeep and win on turn 3.
P: Play ponder into Brainstorm, IT, AN. Shuffle and draw LED. Draw IT. Brainstorm into D.Rit, SSG, Wish. Put Back Wish and Duress. IGG ftw on turn 2.

Ponder is better

53. Petal, Mine, Ponder, BS, Ponder, Duress, LED
M: Mystical for AN and win turn 2.
P: Ponder reveals AN, Mine, IT. Same as above.

Same.

54. D.RIt, Ponder, AN, Chant, Orchard, Mox, BS
M: Mystical for D.Rit and AN on turn 2.
P:Ponder into LED, Petal, Mine. Draw LED, Draw Petal, same as above.

Same.

55. BS, RoF, Orim, Duress, Ponder, Mox, LED
Questionable hand. I'd mull it.

55. Petal, LED, D.Rit, Mox, Mox, Ponder, IT
M: IGG loop on turn 1.
P: Same

Same.

56. Mox, Petal, Wish, Ponder, BS, D.Rit, IT
Questionable hand. I'd mull it. (First 3 cards are Wish, Orim, Duress)

56. Orim, Tendrils, Ponder, IGG, RoF, Mine, AN.
I'd mull this one too. It's full of bricks.

56. BS, Wish, Ponder, LED, IT, IT, RoF
Mull

56. Ponder, Ponder, AN, An, IT, Led, Mine.
M: M. for Dark rit. Turn 2 Mystical for Dark Rit and win turn 3 With AN or IGG loop.
P: Ponder into Petal, D.Rit, Wish. Draw RItual, Draw petal, play ponder into wish, petal, Rite of flame. Draw petal, Draw Rite of flame. Combo turn 3 with IGG or AN.

Same.

57. Brainstorm, Ponder, Mox, Mox, AN, Mine, RoF.
M: Mystical for D. RIt and combo turn 2 with AN.
P: Ponder into SSG, Gemstone, Tendrils. Draw SSG, Draw Gemstone. AN Turn 2.

Same.

58. Wish, Wish, IT, Orim, IGG, BS, Ponder
Mull
58. Led, Mox, CoBx2, AN, Duress, Ponder.
M: Mystical for AN, win turn 2.
P: Ponder into Duress, Brainstorm, IGG. I can go for AN on turn 3 putting AN on top with brainstorm or I can shuffle. I shuffle and draw brainstorm. Draw chant. Brainstorm into Chant, Chant, Duress (...) Put AN on top with chant. Play Mox, Imprint duress, duress. Then chant on my upkeep and win on turn 3.

Mystical is better.

59. Cabal, IT, RoF, BS, Ponder, Mine, CoB
M: Brainstorm into Paradise, Mine, D. Rit. Put back Paradise and CoB. Upkeep Mystical for AN and win on turn 3.
P: Ponder into Paradise, Mine, Dark RIt. Shuffle and draw IGG. Draw mox. Brainstorm intoDuress, CoB, Wish. Put backCity and Igg. Imprint Duress into mox and IT for Rite of flame. Draw gemstone mine on turn 3. Wish for Returns with B open. Fizzle. Needed 1 mana more.

Mystical is slightly better.

60. Tendrils, Wishx2, Mox x2, Petal, Ponder
Mull
60. Ponder, Mox, 2x Rite of flame, Brainstorm, LED, AN
M: Imprint Mystical on mox, Play brainstorm Revealing LED, WIsh, Orim. Win turn 2 with AN.
P: Same

Same

61. Paradise, IT, CoB, AN, IGG, Ponder, RoF
M: Mystical for D.Rit and win turn 2 with AN.
P: Ponder reveals Petal, Chant, Mox. Combo turn 2 with AN.

Same.

62. LED, Petal, RoFx2, Wish, Ponder, AN
M: Go for Returns.
P: Same.

Same.

63. LED x2, Duress, Paradise, Ponder, Brainstorm, D. Rit.
M: Mystical for IT, Win with IGG loop or AN with Duress backup.
P: Ponder reveals Brainstorm, City of brass, Wish. I can win turn 3 with D.Returns, but I try to shuffle draw orim. Draw rite of flame. Play brainstorm into CoB, Mine, Mox. Lose

Mystical is better.

64. Cabalx2, CoB, IGG, D.Rit, Mox, Ponder
M: Mystical for AN, win turn 2.
P: Ponder into Rite of flame, Orim, BS. Shuffle and draw D.Rit. Draw orchard. I try a desperate combo with IGG into ponder and try to not lose speed against mystical (I'd never do this in tournament setting). Ponder into LED, BS, Mine. Shuffle and draw IT. Tutor for tendrils and win. This obviously, doesn't count.

Mystical is better.

65. Ponder, SSG, Mine, Orchard, Petal, D.Rit, Petal.
M: Mystical for AN, win turn 2.
P: Ponder into D.Rit, IT, Wish. Turn 2 win with An, IGG or Returns.

Ponder is better, cause it let you choose the storm generator.

66. Duress, AN, Ponder, LED, Rite of flame, Orim, Mine.
M: Turn 1 duress, draw Mox. Draw COB. Mystical for D. Rit and win with AN, or Mystical for WIsh and win with D.Returns. Turn 4. Could Combo turn 3 if I did not play duress on turn 1.
P: Turn 1 Ponder into Mox, CoB, Mox. Shuffle and draw Brainstorm. Draw Mine. Brainstorm into Tendrils, Petal, CoB. Put back Tendrils and CoB. Combo turn 3 with AN.

Almost the same.

67. SSG, CoB, Mine, Ponderx2, Brainstorm, Wish.
M. Brainstorm into AN, Orim, Mine. Put back Mystical and Wish. Mystical for D.Rit. Turn 3 Win with AN+Chant
P: Ponder into AN, Mine, Orim. Shuffle and draw Orim. Draw rite of flame. Ponder into Mox, Wish, Chant. Shuffle and draw D. Rit. Braisntorm into SSG, Rite of flame, Duress.Put back Orim and SSg. Draw SSG. Combo with Diminishing returns or ETW+duress+next turn chant on turn 3.

Mystical is better.

68. LED, Dark ritual, Orim, Petal, CoB, Orim, Ponder
M: Mystical for AN. An on turn 2 with orim backup.
P: Ponder into Rite of flame, Mox, D.Rit. Shuffle, draw D. Rit. Draw Mine. Draw Mox, Draw mox, Draw Mine. Lose.

Mystical is better.

69. IT, Orim, RoF, 2x Cob, Ponder, Wish.
M: Turn 1 nothing. Draw AN. Mystical into D. Rit. Win turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder into AN, BS, Mine. Draw AN, Draw Mine. IT into Rite of Flame. Turn 3 combo with AN.

Same

70. SSG, Petal, LED, Ponder, Mine, Orchard, Brainstorm
M: Mystical for AN, turn 2 combo.
P: Ponder into Ponder, Rite of Flame, Mine. Shuffle and draw Mox. Draw dark ritual. Brainstorm into IT, Mox, Petal. Combo with IGG or AN at choice.

Ponder is slightly better.

Updated results with 70 hands:
Better Mystical: 20
Better Ponder: 16
Same: 34

Please. People. Do some hands.
What number of hands do you guys feel is a good amount of goldfishing to validate those results?

GreenOne
12-17-2008, 10:55 AM
Sorry in advance for double posting. Those were quite long posts.

71. Ponder, Orim, SSG, IGG, IT, IT Brainstorm
Mull.
71. Paradise, Duress, CoB, Ponder, Mine, C.Rit, Chant.
M: land, go. Duress, go.Mystical for AN. Combo turn 4 with AN.
P: Ponder into Tendrils, RoF, Orim. Shuffle and draw Petal. Draw mox. Draw rite of flame. Draw wish and combo with D.Returns with B open. Fizzle.

Same.

72. CoB, Duress, LED, BS, AN, Ponder, IGG
M: Brainstorm into IT, LED, Cob. Combo turn 2 with IGG or AN.
P: Same.

Same.

73. Orchard, AN, RoF, Ponder, D.Rit, SSG, IT.
M: Combo turn 1 with AN
P: Same.

Same.

74. Rof, SSG, Cabal rit, D.Rit, Mine, IT, Ponder
M: M. for D. Rit or AN and combo turn 2 with AN or IGG.
P: Ponder into Orim, BS, LED. Combo turn 2 with AN or IGG.

Same.

75. Duress, Orim, Ponder, Ponder, D.Rit, CoB, Brainstorm.
Questionable hand, I'll try.
M: Brainstorm into IT, IT, AN. Put back IT, Mystical. Mystical for D.Rit. Combo on turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder into IT, AN, IT shuffle and draw Brainstorm. Draw Rite of flame. Brainstorm into AN, SSG, LED. Combo turn 3 with AN.

Same.

76. ROF, Duress, LED, Ponder, D.Rit, SSG, SSG
Mull
76. C.Rit, LED, BS, Ponder, Petal, RoF, Mine
M: Mystical for AN, Win turn 2 or Mystical for D.Returns and try to win with B or U in pool.
P: Ponder into Wish, LED, Petal. Combo turn 2 with D.Returns with 4 mana open.

Same.

77. Petal, Mine, D.Rit, CoB. Ponder, An, RoF.
M: Combo turn 1 with AN.
P: idem.

Same.

78. AN, Orim, Mine, Ponder, D.Rit, D.rit.
M: Combo turn 1 with AN.
P: idem.

Same.

79. SSG, Wish, Ponder, BS, D.Rit, Duress, Mox
Mull
79. Orim, D.Rit, Infernal, Mox, Ponder, Duress, Mox
Mull
79. BS, Ponderx2, Petal, Mine, Mox, IT.
M: Brainstorm into Mox, RoF, D.Rit. Put Mox+IT on top. Play mox with Mystical. Mysticl for AN and win on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Mox, RoF, D.Rit. Draw D,Rit, Draw RoF. Ponder into Mox, D.Rit Wish. Shuffle and draw Orchard. BS into Ponder, CoB, Wish. Combo next turn with Returns with UB open.

Mystical is better

80. CoBx2, LED, RoFx2, Ponder, Mox
M: M. for IT/Wish and win with IGG, Returns or AN at choice on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Mine, Wish, Mox. Draw mox, draw Wish. Go for D. Returns.

Mystical is better.

81. Ponder, AN, Mox, CoB, IT, IT, Wish.
M: Mystical for D.Rit. IT for D.Rit. TUrn 3 AN.
P: Ponder into D.Rit, Petal, CoB. Draw Petal, Draw D. Rit, Combo turn 2 with AN.

Ponder is better.

82. Ponder, LED, CoB, Petal, IT, D.Rit. Mox.
M: Win turn 1 with IGG.
P: Same.

Same.

83. Petal, IT, Orim, Ponder, BS, Petal, RoF.
Mull
83. Mine x2, CoB, BS, Petal, Rof, Ponder.
Slow but keepable.
M: Brainstorm into RoF. LeD, Mox. Put back Mox+Land. Upkeep M. and win with AN, IGG or Returns.
P: Ponder into RoF, LED, MOX. Draw Led, Draw ROF. Play brainstorm into Mox, LED; Petal. Lose. If you decide to shuffle after ponder you end up with a turn 3 AN.

Mystical is better.

84. Brainstorm x2, Petal, Mine, D.Rit, Duress, Ponder
M: BS into Wish, Mystical, Mox. Put back Duress, Mystical. Play mox (Brainstorm) and M. for AN. Win turn 2.
P: BS into Wish, Ponder, Mox. Put Back Duress and BS. Mox (Ponder) and ponder (BS, Duress, IT). Shuffle and draw SSG. Draw IGG. Go for Returns with 0 in pool.

Mystical is better.

85. Ponder, IT, D.Rit, BS, Petal, Ponder, Duress.
Mull
85. Mine, Ponder, Mox, Orchard, RoF, Duress, Paradise
Bad hand, but I'll play it anyway.
M: Land, Go Draw orim. Land, Duress, Mystical for AN. Turn 3 AN.
P: Ponder into Chant, Wish, Tutor. Shuffla and draw Petal. Draw RoF. Draw Brainstorm. BS into CoB. SSG, CoB. Lose

Mystical is better.

86. D.Rit, IT, AN, Wish, CoB, Ponder, Petal
M: Mystical for D.Rit and win turn 2 with AN.
P: Ponder into Chant, Ponder, IGG. Shuffle, draw RoF. Combo turn 2 with AN.

Same.

87. Duress, Mox, Ponder, CoB, D.Rit, BS, Wish
M: Brainstorm into BS, AN, Wish. Put back Wish, Wish. Mox (Brainstorm). Mystical for D.Rit. Combo turn 2 with AN + duress protection.
P: Ponder into BS, AN, Wish. Shuffle, draw SSG. Draw Mine. Can combo right now with Returns with 0 in pool. BS into Tendrils, Paradise, Orchard. Combo turn 3 with Returns with B or U open.

Mystical is better.

88. D.Rit, ponder, 2xPetal, 2xRoF, Cob.
M: M. for AN, win turn 2.
P: Ponder reveals Rof, Cob, Mine. Shuffle, draw Petal. Draw orim. Draw RoF. Draw Mox. Lose.

Mystical was better.

89. RoF, AN, Ponder, Orchard, Duress, SSG, SSG
M: M. for D.Rit, combo turn 2 with AN + duress
P: Ponder into CoB. Mine, Mine. Enough for a turn 2 unprotected AN. Shuffle into Mox. Draw CoB for a turn 2 unprotected AN anyway.

Mystical is better.

90. CoB, Paradise, IT, RoF, Ponder, IT, BS.
M: Brainstorm into D. Rit, Cabal Rit, Orim. Put back IT, Orim. Mystical for An/ Dark rit for a turn 3 IGG or AN.
P: Ponder into D.Rit, C.Rit, Orim. Draw D. rit. Draw C.rit. IT for D. RIt. Draw Orim anyway. Play BS into Petal, SSG. Mox. Put back Orim+ Paradise. Go for the IGG loop or AN.

Same.

91. IGG, D.rit, Ponder, Mox, Tendrils, RoF, BS
Mull
91. Petal, Mox, Wish, Duress, Ponder, SSg, Orchard.
M: M. for D. Rit for a turn 2 ETW(10). Or play duress. Another chance to play ETW or play M. for AN and win turn 3.
P: Ponder see D. rit, Mine, IT. Turn 2 ETW (10) or shuffle and draw wish. then draw orim. Then LED and win on turn 4 with D. Returs. Or You can decide to not shuffle after ponder. Draw D. Rit, draw IT, Play Infernal for D.rit. Draw Land and combo on turn 3 with Returns, 3 mana open.

Mystical is slightly better, but this doesn't count.

92. Orim, AN, C.Rit, RoF, Ponder, Petal, Tendrils
Mull
92. Orim x2, LED, CoB, Ponder, Tendrils, D. Rit.
M: M. for AN, win turn 2
P: Ponder into LED, SSG, RoF. Shuffle and draw Petal. Draw CoB. Draw RoF. Draw LED and lose.

Mystical is better.

93. Wish, Orim, Petal, AN, Ponder, Duress, Wish.
Mull.
93. LED, Ponder, IT, Brainstorm, Orim, Duress, Mine.
M: BS into Petal, AN, D.Rit. Combo turn 2 with AN.
P: Same.

Same.

94. 2xCob, Orchard, Ponder, Orim, D.rit, BS
M: BS into Mox, BS, RoF. Put back CoB and Orim. Upkeep Mystical for AN. Combo turn 3 with AN after a brainstorm reveals RoF, D.Rit, BS.
P: Ponder into Mox, BS, RoF. Shuffle, draw AN. Draw C.Rit. Combo turn 2 with AN or turn 3 with Chant+AN.

Ponder it Better.

95. Orim, SSG, Ponderx2, Tendrils, Orim, C. Rit.
95. AN, D.Rit, D.rit, Petal, Pondet, It, IT.
M: Turn 1 AN.
P: Same

Same.

96. IT, SSG, SSG, AN, D.rit, Mine, Ponder
M: Turn 1 AN.
P: Same

Same.

97. Ponderx2, IT, Rof, Paradise, SSg, Petal.
M: Mystical for D.Rit. M. for AN or D.rit. Combo turn 3 with IGG or AN.
P: Ponder reaveals Tendrils, SSg, D.Rit. Draw Rit. Draw SSG. Ponder into Tendrils, Led, AN. Draw LED for IGG, Draw AN for AN. Turn 2.

Ponder is better

98. Petalx3, Tendrils, SSG, Ponder, wish.
Mull
98. Mine, Mox, BS, CoB, Orim, C.Ritual, Ponder.
M: Brainstorm into Mystical, Led, Orim. Put back Orim x2. Play mox(Mystical), Mystical for AN, Win turn 2.
P: Ponder for Ponder, Led, orim. Draw Led, Draw ponder. Play ponder (Chant, LED, SSG). Shuffle and draw D. Rit. Play BS for RoF, RoF, Wish. Combo with D. Returns on turn 3.

Mystical was better.

99. Rite of flame, 2x CoB, Brainstorm, Ponder, Tendrils, IT.
M: Bs into Petal, LED, Orchard. Put back tendrils and Orchard. Upkeep M. for D.Rit and win with IGG loop or AN turn 2
P: Ponder into Petal, Led, Orchard. Draw Petal, draw Led. BS into Prchard, LED, D.Rit. win now with Whatever you like.

Ponder was slightly better.

100. D. rit, IGG, RoF, Duress, Tendrils, Ponder, BS
Mull
100. Rof, Mox, Wish, Ponder, BS, LED, IT
M: Mox Imprint Mystical. Play BS. into Wish, AN, BS. Put back 2. Draw wish.Bs into AN, Cob, Cabal Rit. Put back WIsh+AN. Combo turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder into Wish, AN, BS. Shuffle, draw Paradise. Draw B. Wish, Play IT for Led. Combo next turn with IGG loop.

Same.

Updated Results with 100 hands:
Better Mystical: 30
Better Ponder: 20
Same: 50

I believe we can have partial results with those data. Ponder and Mystical are almost equally valid in this slot for a goldfish. I believe Mystical should be better post side, when it can also fetch silver bullets. Mystical, however, Sucks in multiples, so I'd play something like a 2/1 split in this deck.

Thoughts? More data to work on? Comments about the goldfishing session?

Nightmare
12-17-2008, 11:01 AM
Thoughts? More data to work on? Comments about the goldfishing session? Goldfishing seems like the wrong way to go about this. I know you've put a lot of work into it to see what you come up with, but obviously in a goldfish, a tutor is going to be better than a cantrip, because there's no pressure, and you don't have to be concerned with card advantage. I'm not sure the same would hold true in real matches.

GreenOne
12-17-2008, 11:48 AM
Goldfishing seems like the wrong way to go about this. I know you've put a lot of work into it to see what you come up with, but obviously in a goldfish, a tutor is going to be better than a cantrip, because there's no pressure, and you don't have to be concerned with card advantage. I'm not sure the same would hold true in real matches.

Why in a goldfish a tutor is going to be better than a cantrip? Mystical can't find LED nor lands.
There really is pressure in this match. Specifically, you have to combo off faster than the other version.

I know that goldfishing is not like a real match, but what I wanted to do is put up some data to back up the usual "Mystical is just too slow" or "Mystical finds the combo faster" debate.
In real matches you have to be concerned by both card advantage and card quality. You can have a hand with all the acceleration pieces in the world but if you miss a tutor, you can't combo.
Ponder can provide you with an acceleration piece and a tutor that you draw in your draw step. If you needed those pieces than M. Tutor wasn't going to give you the win.

This wants to be an evaluation of how much having 2 "more random" pieces is better than having the single (non-artifact, non land, non critter) piece you like. As the results show till now, there's not a great advantage in running one or the other. And this is quite an impressive result. I was expecting Ponder to do better in a deck with so many redundant pieces.

deviant
12-17-2008, 01:18 PM
Unfortunately I am not interested enough to participate in this Mystical-thingy, but if you are really serious about this, I'd feel like a record of the most tutored, seconde most tutored etc. card would be a great asset.

I'd be curious to know how many times it was "just a" dark rit :)

GoldenCid
12-17-2008, 03:26 PM
Sorry for my interruption but how many does our match up get better against MUC or other counters decks after boarding??
And how do you exactly side in (Bryan list)???

Bryant Cook
12-17-2008, 07:34 PM
For Christ's sake people, read the thread or at least the opening post. I just updated it not even a week ago.

Against almost any blue deck:
-2 Simian Spirit Guide
-3 Ponder

+2 Shusher
+3 Pyroblast

If you want more space/cards...
-1 Ad Nauseum (first)
-1 Chrome Mox (second) [You want 0cc mana for after Nauseum resolves]

GreenOne
12-18-2008, 03:13 AM
Unfortunately I am not interested enough to participate in this Mystical-thingy, but if you are really serious about this, I'd feel like a record of the most tutored, seconde most tutored etc. card would be a great asset.

I'd be curious to know how many times it was "just a" dark rit :)
Good idea!
out of 79 times Mystical was actually played, the target was:
Dark ritual: 36
AN: 34
IT: 6
Wish: 2
Tendrils: 1

So almost half the time the target was acceleration (D.Rit) and half the time it was a storm generating machine (tutor or AN). This means that the deck has the right number of both and is not particularly low on either.
A thing to notice is that it was played 0 times for a second Rite of Flame (D.Rit is actually the best acceleration piece after LED), 0 times for a brainstorm (it happens with FT). The only time it was played for Tendrils I had a hand with 0 lands, acceleration + LED + IGG + Mystical + Brainstorm.

I guess that in actual gameplay the range of targets should be more open. Against a real opponent you might want some disruption piece or silver bullet. In the mid game you can tutor Cabal Ritual (with Threshold) or RoF (if you have some in the grave) as a more effective piece of acceleration.

GoldenCid
12-19-2008, 04:48 PM
Updated Results with 100 hands:
Better Mystical: 30
Better Ponder: 20
Same: 50


I think that 10 hands of advantage is not a great percent to conclude that mystical > ponder, but its small difference makes me begin a test with 3 mystical ( - 3 ponder)

Illissius
12-19-2008, 05:18 PM
Meanwhile, am I correct to assume that Ponder will be a better topdeck than Mystical a fairly vast portion of the time?

GreenOne
12-20-2008, 07:05 AM
I think that 10 hands of advantage is not a great percent to conclude that mystical > ponder, but its small difference makes me begin a test with 3 mystical ( - 3 ponder)


Meanwhile, am I correct to assume that Ponder will be a better topdeck than Mystical a fairly vast portion of the time?

Good idea, there are lots of things that the goldfish can't tell:
- A topdecked mystical is way worse than a Mystical in the starting hand, Unless you topdeck it with a brainstorm.
- Double Mystical sucks.
- Mystical is probably worse when you mull
- Mystical is better post side.

As I said before, I'd test a version with 1 or 2 mysticals. We never want to play three, with an higher risk of drawing 2 in a single game, cause its power level doesn't seem that bigger than Ponder's anyway. Also, Mystical+Ponder in hand is not bad: a shuffle effect after the cantrip looks good.

Also, I noticed a thing with mystical: you sometimes end up with a hand that's keepable, but you need more than 1 piece of acceleration/tutor to go off. In those matches if you don't have a brainstorm but got a mystical you end up with doing nothing on turn 1, which is bad. Maybe mystical works better with duress than with chant, so in those cases you have a turn 1 play anyway. Also maybe mystical deserves a different sideboard (1 chain of vapor+1Echoing Thruth comes to mind but maybe it's a bad choice). But the standard hand is already a good start to test it. Just mind the potential when you go through the gauntlet (like ask yourself, "what if in this case I could M.tutor for Wipe Away/Krosan Grip/E.Truth/Extirpate/Diminishing Returns/Whatever card you could have in the SB")

However, only testing can clarify this. Thanks for doing it GoldenCid.

yawg07
12-20-2008, 03:45 PM
I played Bryant's list with a 2/1 split of Ponder/Mystical last night at a 14-man and made Top 4.
Winning through Counter-top one game vs UB/w Painter, and also Double Daze, Double FoW, Mage naming Chant against the same deck.

Gotta say, I loved it. The games I saw Mystical, I won because it tutored up Ad Nauseam or CHANT.
And when I saw Ponder, it did it's thing. edit: POST Ad Nauseam, I prefer Ponder there.

However, once online, I had a BAD Nauseam and Mystical pulled my ass out of the fire.
I was at 16 life/5 storm/0 mana, and cast Ad Nauseaum ... ripped AdN, Mystical, Brainstorm, Petal, LED, Petal, Chrome, AdN ... ugh 4 life, so risky.
I was about to risk it and realized hey, I can win! :D

Petal (6)
Petal (7)
Chrome Imprint AdN (8)
Petal -> Mystical for Tendrils (9)
LED (10)
Petal -> Brainstorm and crack LED (11, BBB)
Draw Tendrils and tap Chrome (12) :tongue:

Gotta say, a 9th tutor doesn't hurt the deck any, it actually helps a lot in some situations.
But the type of tutor it is makes it best when seen early or when you need protection/win.
I wouldn't go 1/2 split, nor would I do all 3 Mystical, the card is too situational for that.
I dunno, I will need to do a lot more testing to be SURE, but in real gameplay, it was pretty good.

GoldenCid
12-21-2008, 05:57 PM
Ok guys...i need help. I'm running bryant's decklist and against some deck i feel unprotected and i don't know how to combo off safely. For example...control MUC (force, daze, etc) or WU (FOW, daze, chant) makes me a mess. I read your comments about getting the combo on turn 2 in a stable manner and i can't, at leat against that kind of decks. What can i do?

ScatmanX
12-22-2008, 01:25 PM
I would really like to see a game where you guys are able to combo dodging 2 Daze, 2 FoW and a Chant, because it seems really hard to pull that of.

yawg07
12-22-2008, 02:49 PM
I would really like to see a game where you guys are able to combo dodging 2 Daze, 2 FoW and a Chant, because it seems really hard to pull that of.

Nah, man Mage was NAMING chant. Plus, FoWs were on consecutive turns, not the same turn.
I happen to have 5 freaking lands out that game, so I wasn't hurting on mana.
Since I mulled, I was spending a little structure time at the start of the game.


Turn before kill, I go to Pyroblast MM (I have chant in hand I can't play and I may need to IGG), he FoWs.
Pyroblast forces him to expend resources to make sure he has barriers up for me to run into.

Okay no biggie, he goes, swings with MM and knocks me to 16.

My turn, I draw Chant #2, whee! Damn Meddling Mage.
I play Petal, fine.
Sac petal to Dark Rit, fine. (BBB)
I play a now threshed Cabal Rit, he FoWs. (B)
I play LED, fine. (B)
I tap 4 lands and use the floating to play Ad Nauseam, he Dazes, I pay with the 5th land.
He Dazes AGAIN and I crack LED for BBB to pay for it. (BB, going into AdN)
I draw a bunch of free mana, a few rituals, 2 Pyroblasts, and Tendrils. Game.

Play mistakes? Sure, but that is how it went down :D
Should have saved the FoW for nauseam, but he wasn't sure what I had in hand.
You never know what combo is up to sometimes.

GoldenCid
12-22-2008, 06:38 PM
Ok guys...i need help. I'm running bryant's decklist and against some deck i feel unprotected and i don't know how to combo off safely. For example...control MUC (force, daze, etc) or WU (FOW, daze, chant) makes me a mess. I read your comments about getting the combo on turn 2 in a stable manner and i can't, at leat against that kind of decks. What can i do?

I began cutting 3 ponders (i know but well) to add 2 duress (now 4x) and 1 mystical tutor to feel me more protected.
Other changes or suggestions are welcomed.

SuperBean
12-23-2008, 04:53 PM
Alright, I've been playing this deck for quite a while now.. And I have the biggest problem with Suicide Black / Pox Style decks.

I really have no defense against them, I can Duress them back, or I can chant them during there upkeep to keep them from destroying my hand. And that NEVER buys me enough time to combo off and win. I've considered Compost in the sideboard for this reason.. Can anyone think of a better SB or even main deck Alternative?

rsaunder
12-23-2008, 04:58 PM
Against pox, I generally play my artifact accell as soon as I snag it. It's a good idea to drop some gas and then hide an AdN/IT via mystical or brainstorm on top of your library so you're completely immune to discard.

SuperBean
12-23-2008, 10:11 PM
I've tried to go that route... And I guess it's just my meta game? But the Pox style decks that I'm playing against all play Duress, Thoughtseize, Hym, Sinkhole, and Verdict all in the same deck (On top of SmallPox).

GreenOne
12-24-2008, 04:50 AM
I've tried to go that route... And I guess it's just my meta game? But the Pox style decks that I'm playing against all play Duress, Thoughtseize, Hym, Sinkhole, and Verdict all in the same deck (On top of SmallPox).

So they're not playing Keg or EE. Try going for an early ETW (at least pre-side), or buy yourself time with Orim. Going first with a duress in hand helps. Diminishing Returns and AN should be quite good here too.

EDIT: Also, dodging them is tech.
EDIT2: If there are too mamy Poxes to dodge them, try going with Ichorid and rape them.

SuperBean
12-24-2008, 02:32 PM
Haha, thats funny that you mention Ichorid. I have my Ichorid deck together and did that last time I played in the local tournament (I'm in Florida on Vacation right now).

Oh, and yes they do play Keg and Engineered.

GoldenCid
12-24-2008, 03:44 PM
Haha, thats funny that you mention Ichorid. I have my Ichorid deck together and did that last time I played in the local tournament (I'm in Florida on Vacation right now).

Oh, and yes they do play Keg and Engineered.

I thought that he was talking about ichorid deck jaja because ichorid card had no sense.

In think that discard decks are terrible for us, hymn to tourach + sinkhole is awful. Is there any alternative?? I only run 2 duress in main deck and none in side....so...

SuperBean
12-24-2008, 10:30 PM
That is what I was hoping for, a sideboard-able answer for decks like this. Because it's deck like this that I just can't seem to play through unless I will the dice roll and can combo out first turn.

The other reason I was looking for answer is because I am heavily considering playing T.E.S at the Grand Prix in Chicago and I know there will be plenty of Team America running around, as well as many Pox style decks. So finding a good answer would be great :smile:

GoldenCid
12-25-2008, 08:13 AM
Maybe the answer is land pass, chant in their upkeep and then combo off in t2. 1 turn is 1 turn. The big problem, i guess, is that in GP you 'll probably have no idea what your opponent is running so this option will work in game 2. I think that every deck has its bad pairing and maybe pox like decks are the ones for our TES (i'm not an expert, off course) so you will probably lose this match and win the others.

GreenOne
12-25-2008, 08:36 AM
Maybe the answer is land pass, chant in their upkeep and then combo off in t2. 1 turn is 1 turn. The big problem, i guess, is that in GP you 'll probably have no idea what your opponent is running so this option will work in game 2. I think that every deck has its bad pairing and maybe pox like decks are the ones for our TES (i'm not an expert, off course) so you will probably lose this match and win the others.
I also would not expect a good number of Pox decks in a GP.
There will be Eva Green, Team America and some other Black Based aggro control, but I expect almost no pox (maybe 1-2 in te entire tournament).

scrumdogg
12-25-2008, 09:38 AM
Oh Pox will be played, every bad & suboptimal deck variant you can think of will be played...but if you get byes or survive the first two rounds then they will be irrelevant. And seriously, if you can't beat Clark Kant/Cavius/Radley player to player round 1 or 2, your chances in later rounds versus competent pilots aren't stellar anyway.

SuperBean
12-25-2008, 10:24 PM
I agree with the above.. I'm sure there will be a huge variety of decks there. I fully expect Poxless-Pox to be played.

kroelai
12-27-2008, 06:52 PM
I never had problems against pox, the cantrips are gamewinning.
Etw 1st or 2nd turn is really good, even when they are playing Keg and/or EE.
You must take the risk, otherwise you wait to long and you'll lose more easily.

GreenOne
12-28-2008, 09:10 AM
I never had problems against pox, the cantrips are gamewinning.
Etw 1st or 2nd turn is really good, even when they are playing Keg and/or EE.
You must take the risk, otherwise you wait to long and you'll lose more easily.

After a pox they're also low on life, so a tendrils for 4-5 usually does the job :wink:

bigbear102
01-02-2009, 11:41 PM
Oh Pox will be played, every bad & suboptimal deck variant you can think of will be played...but if you get byes or survive the first two rounds then they will be irrelevant. And seriously, if you can't beat Clark Kant/Cavius/Radley player to player round 1 or 2, your chances in later rounds versus competent pilots aren't stellar anyway.

There is always the off chance that you will be paired with a reasonably competent player, maybe even a good pro. It's not likely, but it could happen. At that point it will be a deck that you recognize though, so it might even be better.

Bryant Cook
01-04-2009, 07:45 PM
Report and new list Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12375)

GreenOne
01-04-2009, 10:23 PM
Yeah, I was unsatisfied with the SSG in the deck too. You want them in the deck to have more initial mana sources for Ad Nauseam, but you could draw an average of 2.5 cards instead of them with the 3 life you lose with Ad Nauseam, so it's good without them. I first put some more duresses in the deck, but I after some testing 8 protection spells was too much, so I went with 3 duress and 4 ponders.

Did you like Mystical Tutor during the day?

I also noticed that the times you drew a Shusher it was blasted. Xantid Swarm was probably better in that meta. I'm actually considering dropping Shushers for Swarm, leaving the anti-counterbalance role to Blasts, duresses, and possibly Mystical Tutor->Wipe Away/Krosan Grip.

Bryant Cook
01-04-2009, 10:34 PM
Yeah, I was unsatisfied with the SSG in the deck too. You want them in the deck to have more initial mana sources for Ad Nauseam, but you could draw an average of 2.5 cards instead of them with the 3 life you lose with Ad Nauseam, so it's good without them. I first put some more duresses in the deck, but I after some testing 8 protection spells was too much, so I went with 3 duress and 4 ponders.

Did you like Mystical Tutor during the day?

I also noticed that the times you drew a Shusher it was blasted. Xantid Swarm was probably better in that meta. I'm actually considering dropping Shushers for Swarm, leaving the anti-counterbalance role to Blasts, duresses, and possibly Mystical Tutor->Wipe Away/Krosan Grip.

There was a lot of Counterbalance decks there, I was fortunate to only hit two. I am not comfortable with no Vexing Shusher against them, even with a target on his head for Blue blast, that's one less blast countering one of your red spells. For example against Threshold if he didn't blast Shusher, he would've blasted my blast. Then counterbalance would've resolved. Mystical Tutor was good at not killing me, unlike a 3rd Ad Nauseum. They were decent, I wouldn't say great or anything but they filled thier role nicely. I like being able to play a maindeck Chain of Vapor and Mystical allows this.

GoldenCid
01-05-2009, 01:45 PM
Great!! This version makes me feel more sure against control and damage deck were nauseam was almost autokill...

Joe_C
01-05-2009, 05:01 PM
Report and new list Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12375)

Ive just started toying with playing this deck. And I have to say after playing the list you origionally had posted here on plage 1(post ad nauseam), I had the same feelings about spirit guide. Way too many times did that 3 damage make my nauseams suck, but guide is seriously underwhelming after turn 3 unless you need that mana source. Running mystical seemed like a good direction to go, the addition of chain of vapor is really really nice.

edit: playing the newer list, chain of vapor won me a game. Opponent casts harmonic sliver targetting my LED on their 2nd turn. I chain it back to my hand. Turn 2 i proceed to go, land, LED, dark rit, tutor, nauseam, and end up with a stom of 16 or so when I kill him with tendrils.. Awesome

Bryant Cook
01-06-2009, 05:01 PM
Ive just started toying with playing this deck. And I have to say after playing the list you origionally had posted here on plage 1(post ad nauseam), I had the same feelings about spirit guide. Way too many times did that 3 damage make my nauseams suck, but guide is seriously underwhelming after turn 3 unless you need that mana source. Running mystical seemed like a good direction to go, the addition of chain of vapor is really really nice.

edit: playing the newer list, chain of vapor won me a game. Opponent casts harmonic sliver targetting my LED on their 2nd turn. I chain it back to my hand. Turn 2 i proceed to go, land, LED, dark rit, tutor, nauseam, and end up with a stom of 16 or so when I kill him with tendrils.. Awesome

Why would you play LED out turn 1? Seems like a poor choice with that hand.

Joe_C
01-06-2009, 05:04 PM
Why would you play LED out turn 1? Seems like a poor choice with that hand.

he was running thoughtseize/ cabal therapy. This was game 2.

Pulp_Fiction
01-09-2009, 02:43 PM
I posted this on the Storm Boards so I might as well post here as well. Alright, it feels good to finally have a good finish with combo. My meta is still infested with Counterbalance but I have gotten to the point where I just don't care and want to play combo more. At my local tournament last night I went 4-1 to a top 4 split; there were 28 people there. This is the list I took:

4x LED
2x Ponder
1x Echoing Truth
1x Tendrils
4x Orim's Chant
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
3x Burning Wish
2x Mystical Tutor
1x IGG
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Rite of Flame
2x Ad Nauseam
3x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual

4x Forbidden Orchard
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass

SB

1x IGG
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Grapeshot
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Slaughter Pact
3x Pyroblast
3x Shattering Spree

I really like the additional 2 lands. I feel that 12 makes the deck a lot more resilient to turn 1 Wasteland. When I was testing the deck out I had 3x Mystical Tutor and it was just to many because on occassion they can just clog up your hand and times were bad. After seeing Bryant's list on the source where he runs 2 I decided that was the correct number and I really like it. I still love SSG in the deck, especially when comboing out on turn 2 when I have already played a land, the initial mana sources that aren't Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are awesome. Here is a short tournament report on how the overall matchups went and concepts that I think need a little discussion:

Round 1: BG Disruption w/ Hymn, Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, Deed, etc. (not Eva Green)
2-1
Wasteland can be a problem in this matchup. Sometimes it can really set you back. Mystical Tutor was key here. I was able to drop LED(s) into play with Tutor in hand and not worry about any kind of land destruction of hand destruction and since his deck has no clock it gives me time to setup. However, Deed is a serious problem and if your draw isn't fast enough it can really fuck you up.

Round 2: R/W Goblins
1-2
Wasteland owned me in games 2 and 3. This matchup should be a bye. I destroyed him game 1 on turn 3 and then saw a TOTAL of 3x initial mana sources over the next 2 games, hell, even SSG would have won me game 2, but triple Piledriver on turn 5 said otherwise. I mulled to 6 both times and couldn't find additional lands, Petals, or Moxen, it was horrible luck.

Round 3: U/G/r Thrash
2-1
This matchup is fucking hard. Stifle, Spell Snare, BURN (so you can't go nuts and will punish bad AdN reveals), FoW, Wasteland, Daze, and Blue Blast after SB. Xantid Swarm was SO key here. Had it been Shusher I would have lost. I won game 3 since he could not draw an answer to the Swarm (he had Stifle, FoW, BEB and something else in hand). My deck was laughing at me for a while (mull to 6) but eventually I drew into something relevent and went off. I really think this is the proper SB in this matchup with my build:

-2 Rite of Flame
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Ponder
-1 Echoing Truth
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Swarm

It can be tough playing against BEB so I think minimizing exposure to it by taking out Rite of Flame is a good idea, but not cutting all of them since you still need red mana and it is nice to have extra red cards to imprint on Chrome Mox. I would never cut SSG since it allows you to Pyroblast on turn 2 (on the draw) with an answer to Daze. Seriously I can't say enough good things about the card. BEB is so prominent in my meta I think it makes the cut over Shusher and it requires a lot less mana to make it work!

Round 4: U/W/g/b Jace Landstill
2-0
Maybe my opponent just had bad hands but this matchup seems really easy. Orim's Chant was pretty spectacular here. I don't think they have enough counters to really STOP storm cold. After SB Shushers and Swarms are just pointless so I can't see either of them being sided in against these decks since all they have are creature destruction spells and that just gives you two dead draws. I understand the argument of "well they first have to answer it" but they will, between Swords, Edict, Deed, and Smothers it just seems horrible.

Round 5: Enchantress
2-1
Not the easy matchup I thought it was. But after the games I was talking to my opponent and he told me he never had the crazy stupid fast draws that he did against me so I guess it is usually easier against "normal" draws. He started off with Utopia Sprawl turn 1, turn 2 Enchantress effect, turn 3 lock spell. Chant also owns this matchup since it basically just shuts them down; I mean, Timewalk is good right? But he also played SB Rule of Law and that was a nightmare. I still don't think Cleanfall is needed in the SB since this matchup is not prevalent at all. But this matchup would be almost unwinnable for them if Cleanfall was there. And if the game goes a while, Sterling Grove fucking sucks. Overall I think it is a very winnable matchup and a turn 1 IGG (semi-Mindtwist) REALLY hurts them. That is how I won game 3.

Overall I was very impressed with the consistency of the deck and in particular I LOVE the fact that this deck does not have to rely on Ad Nauseam to win but still has the option. Maybe half the wins were Ad Nauseam based. Xantid Swarm was spectacular. The only thing I would change to the build is in the SB but thats all meta dependent. I really want an additional Swarm in there but for now I would leave it alone.

Shriekmaw
01-09-2009, 03:11 PM
4x LED
2x Ponder
1x Echoing Truth
1x Tendrils
4x Orim's Chant
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
3x Burning Wish
2x Mystical Tutor
1x IGG
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Rite of Flame
2x Ad Nauseam
3x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual

4x Forbidden Orchard
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass

SB

1x IGG
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Grapeshot
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Slaughter Pact
3x Pyroblast
3x Shattering Spree



The deck looks pretty good. I would only change the following in the main deck and sideboard. I'm not a fan of running less than 4 infernal tutors or burning wishes b/c you need to find them. I guess the mystical tutors help, but would still like the 8 tutors in the deck.

Main Deck

-2 SSG
-1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chrome Mox
+1 Ponder
+1 Chain of Vapor

SB

-2 Pact
-2 Swarm
+1 Wipe Away
+2 Shusher
+1 Duress/Bounce Spell (Your Choice)

Joe_C
01-09-2009, 03:49 PM
The deck looks pretty good. I would only change the following in the main deck and sideboard. I'm not a fan of running less than 4 infernal tutors or burning wishes b/c you need to find them. I guess the mystical tutors help, but would still like the 8 tutors in the deck.

Main Deck

-2 SSG
-1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chrome Mox
+1 Ponder
+1 Chain of Vapor

SB

-2 Pact
-2 Swarm
+1 Wipe Away
+2 Shusher
+1 Duress/Bounce Spell (Your Choice)


I also suggest running chain of vapor. It has proven itself to be amazing. After casting nauseam bouncing back chrome moxes so you can replay and retap for mana/ storm has been crucial for me in several games so far. 4 chrome mox is a necessity if you want to be comfortable with nauseam.