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GreenOne
01-09-2009, 03:57 PM
Here's the SB I'm playing right now:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm

My SB strategy is usually this:

Non Blue decks:
+2 Duress -2 Chant
Non Blue decks with artifact hate:
+2 Duress +2 Shattering Spree -4 Chant
Blue decks:
-2 Cabal Ritual -X Ponder -1 Chain of Vapor +2 Xantid Swarm +2 Duress +X Pyroblast

So after SB I got a package of 4 Chant, 4 Duress, 2 Swarm, 3 Pyroblasts against blue decks.

Swarm has some advantages compared to Shusher:
- Costs 1 mana and zero to activate (no mana in your combo turn)
- Not needleable
- Not blastable

I believe Swarm is overall better against Counterspells/stifles/chants, and generally in fast games, where shusher is better against CB and long games.

Once CB lands you have some possibilities:
- Have Shusher (a 2of) and Pyroblast (a 3of)
- Play Pyroblast and hope the opponent doesn't have 1CC on top.
- Play bounce (Xcc) and hope the opponent doesn't have X on top.

So I take my chance and just hope to deal with CB before it comes into play. I have some chances to do it.
- I can combo before turn 2.
- I can play a turn 1 Swarm and win protected on turn 2 on the play
- I can discard it with 4 Duress
- I can counter it with 3 Blasts

I believe that this configuration actually gives a better Counter matchup, while still being solid against CB.
Duress is also much better than chant against everything non-blue.

What do you guys think?

Pulp_Fiction
01-09-2009, 04:50 PM
@ nickrit: I really dislike 4x Burning Wish, 4x Infernal Tutor. I find that when playing the builds that look like Bryant's I usually just draw into more Tutors than I need. With Mystical Tutor (taking the place of the other Tutors) it adds a lot of versatility. I just don't like 4x Wish 4x Infernal since I almost always have 1-2 as dead cards in my hand wishing they were additional cantrips or accel. All preference, if anything I would add the 4th Infernal since it can fetch up additional acceleration, but for now I much prefer this configuration.

Regarding Chain of Vapor, no, just no, I will not play a bounce spell that can't remove a CB in play with Top (albeit 2 isn't good but its something) and can not deal with Chalice of the Void @1. This is crucial, since I don't play Duress (I always found 6 pieces redundant in a deck with this speed) to hopefully catch Chalice before it comes into play I have to have an answer. Chain may randomly add additional storm but I would much rather have a solid answer to Chalice, and Echoing Truth bounces both CotV @1 and 0. 4x Chrome Mox is to many. Still, preference, additional lands helps this, but I almost always have to many Chrome Mox in my hand and not enough spells to put on them; 3x feels right in this build. This is also where SSG shines. I am usually quite happy to reveal SSG off of Ad Nauseam, especially if I have already played my land for the turn, additional mana sources are never bad and it helps play against Daze

@ Vexing Shusher, I have had mixed feelings about the card. With the commonly played Blue Elemental Blast I think he is very much suspect. Xantid Swarm is just great. It also has its uses in the combo mirror to combat an opponent who has more Chants than you do. It comes down turn 1 and forces an opponent to answer it immediately or lose and requires no additional mana investment. It can be Stifled but since when is running the opponent out of Stifles a bad thing? It is also immune to Needle (I have had Shusher Needled before) which is never bad. They both die to all the same removal that people actually play, so with the rise of BEB in my meta he makes the cut over Shusher.

@ greenone: I like the strategy. I like leaving in 1-2 Ponder (I only play 2) against control cause that matchup is usually all about the setup. And after a bad Brainstorm that reveals something like land, Chant, Rite, and have no action spells its nice to have that Ponder to shuffle it away.

Joe_C
01-09-2009, 04:51 PM
looking at most lists and most tournament reports, it seems like the 3rd spree is just for a wish target. Is it worth keeping a slot in the board for the 3rd? Or could another shusher/ swarm be put in there?

Pulp_Fiction
01-09-2009, 04:58 PM
I have been wondering about this as well. With Mystical Tutor in the deck you can probably afford to play less Spree. Cut a Spree and put in an additional Shusher or Swarm. This does make you a little more vulnerable to turn 1 Chalice @1 but with Echoing Truth/Wipe Away in addition to Burning Wish this should not be to much of a problem.

Joe_C
01-09-2009, 06:10 PM
@ nickrit: I really dislike 4x Burning Wish, 4x Infernal Tutor. I find that when playing the builds that look like Bryant's I usually just draw into more Tutors than I need. With Mystical Tutor (taking the place of the other Tutors) it adds a lot of versatility. I just don't like 4x Wish 4x Infernal since I almost always have 1-2 as dead cards in my hand wishing they were additional cantrips or accel. All preference, if anything I would add the 4th Infernal since it can fetch up additional acceleration, but for now I much prefer this configuration.

Regarding Chain of Vapor, no, just no, I will not play a bounce spell that can't remove a CB in play with Top (albeit 2 isn't good but its something) and can not deal with Chalice of the Void @1. This is crucial, since I don't play Duress (I always found 6 pieces redundant in a deck with this speed) to hopefully catch Chalice before it comes into play I have to have an answer. Chain may randomly add additional storm but I would much rather have a solid answer to Chalice, and Echoing Truth bounces both CotV @1 and 0. 4x Chrome Mox is to many. Still, preference, additional lands helps this, but I almost always have to many Chrome Mox in my hand and not enough spells to put on them; 3x feels right in this build. This is also where SSG shines. I am usually quite happy to reveal SSG off of Ad Nauseam, especially if I have already played my land for the turn, additional mana sources are never bad and it helps play against Daze

@ Vexing Shusher, I have had mixed feelings about the card. With the commonly played Blue Elemental Blast I think he is very much suspect. Xantid Swarm is just great. It also has its uses in the combo mirror to combat an opponent who has more Chants than you do. It comes down turn 1 and forces an opponent to answer it immediately or lose and requires no additional mana investment. It can be Stifled but since when is running the opponent out of Stifles a bad thing? It is also immune to Needle (I have had Shusher Needled before) which is never bad. They both die to all the same removal that people actually play, so with the rise of BEB in my meta he makes the cut over Shusher.

@ greenone: I like the strategy. I like leaving in 1-2 Ponder (I only play 2) against control cause that matchup is usually all about the setup. And after a bad Brainstorm that reveals something like land, Chant, Rite, and have no action spells its nice to have that Ponder to shuffle it away.

the thing with chain of vapor vs. echoing truth is that if they resolve counterbalance and top, more than likely you are not going to resolve either chain or truth. Chain can be a storm generator and mana fixer along with chrome mox. Im not sold on running less than 4 mox. After a nauseam you need the 0cc mana without the lifeloss, and most of the time it is better of not being red mana like guide provides. Ive had guide cost me too much life for one of the more "off" colors for the deck. Although running both chain and truth may be an option. Its a maindeck answer to opposing ETW tokens, chalice etc.... I may do 1 ponder( drop to 2) +1 E truth. Seems versatile enough to give it consideration.

My list with those changes:


4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbidden Orchard


4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Chrome Mox
2 Mystical Tutor
2 Ad Nauseum
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing truth

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:2 Vexing Shusher
SB:1 Wipeaway
SB:2 Duress

Raindown
01-12-2009, 07:37 PM
What the best way to deal with Chalice of the Void it seems to be my bane at the moment?

Jaiminho
01-12-2009, 07:43 PM
What the best way to deal with Chalice of the Void it seems to be my bane at the moment?

Shattering Spree. Chalice won't counter the copies.

GreenOne
01-12-2009, 07:44 PM
What the best way to deal with Chalice of the Void it seems to be my bane at the moment?
You have those plays:
- Duress on the play
- Chant to time walk, then go off
- Mystical into Chain of vapor/Shattering Spree (post side) if they played it for Zero.
- Burning Wish for Shattering Spree.

Remember you can play Shattering spree and replicate it. Only the original spell will get countered by Chalice @1.
If chalice infests your meta just play more copies of Spree in the side.

Raindown
01-12-2009, 07:46 PM
Remember you can play Shattering spree and replicate it. Only the original spell will get countered by Chalice @1.

Hotness.

Bryant Cook
01-12-2009, 07:46 PM
I made Top 8 again last Saturday, I won two rounds based on Vexing Shusher alone. I don't really want to replace Shusher for Swarm. However, I'll give it that it's amazing in the combo mirror. Which I lost round 2.

As for Chain of Vapor it can bounce Counterbalance. Target something else, then sac a land, copy chain, targeting counterbalance. Counterbalance doesn't counterspell copies. You should never play two bounce spells maindeck, at that point you open hand them. You don't want to be opening dead cards. Echoing Truth is awful, 2 damage on Ad Nauseum and is dead most of the time, that sounds awful.

Chalice of the Void can be answered by boarding in two Shattering Spree, keeping one as a wish target.

Edit: Way to post before me guys.

pi4meterftw
01-12-2009, 08:15 PM
I believe Chain can't be copied unless it resolves.

andrew77
01-12-2009, 08:24 PM
I believe Chain can't be copied unless it resolves.

Yes, but you can make them misplay. For example attempt to chain your lotus petal, chrome mox or led. They might let it resolve with the idea that they would then counter it and keep you off combo mana.

GoldenCid
01-12-2009, 09:18 PM
By the way guys...why grapeshot and not deathmark in the wish board??

Bryant Cook
01-12-2009, 09:22 PM
By the way guys...why grapeshot and not deathmark in the wish board??

Grapeshot doubles as a win condition for Meddling Mage and Runed Halo?

GoldenCid
01-12-2009, 09:32 PM
Grapeshot doubles as a win condition for Meddling Mage and Runed Halo?

Yeah...i guess meddling for tendrils and halo for goblin...but you need an extra large storm for winning with grapeshot. If you use it for killing mage it would be equal to deathmark, if not i repeat you need a big big storm to win.

Bryant Cook
01-12-2009, 09:33 PM
Yeah...i guess meddling for tendrils and halo for goblin...but you need an extra large storm for winning with grapeshot. If you use it for killing mage it would be equal to deathmark, if not i repeat you need a big big storm to win.

Cast Ad Nauseum. Draw 15-20 cards, play them.

badjuju
01-13-2009, 01:15 AM
Yeah...i guess meddling for tendrils and halo for goblin...but you need an extra large storm for winning with grapeshot. If you use it for killing mage it would be equal to deathmark, if not i repeat you need a big big storm to win.

It's actually not that far-fetched. Although not particularly conventional, I have won a few times by tight math, lots of looping, and a big-ass Grapeshot. Can't really remember the circumstances, but I only remember that I had JUST enough mana to pull it off. I think with the inclusion of MD Chain of Vapor, Meddling Mage seems even less of a problem.

Also, Runed Halo cannot be called for "Goblin Token" I believe. [Correct. - Bardo]

matelml
01-13-2009, 04:14 AM
They can however name EtW with Mage and ToA with Halo. Not that it matters.

Chain of vapor seems bad as a bounce spell that only works when your opponent misplays. Pre-board the most important problempermanents are CotV:1 and Counterbalance. Since they are both not answered by CoV decently, I doubt it's use. What does it do? Only CotV:0, which is more unlikely than at 1 game 1. Gaddock Teeg isn't played maindeck (no I don't want to see your petdeck with Teegs), or as a 1-of, which is way slow. Blood Moon is possible, but hard, just like 3Sphere. Also, Blood Moon doesn't need to be bounced to win. So please explain why it is so great. The storm option is more a gimmick than a good or important use.

GreenOne
01-13-2009, 08:23 AM
So please explain why it is so great. The storm option is more a gimmick than a good or important use.

Yeah, I used the storm option to reach 10 storm only once in all the games. It's not like we're abusing it as a mana generator, cause we only make 1 mana at the cost of 1 card with chrome mox.

I guess the reason it's played over other bounce (Wipe Away or E.Truth) is the lower cc for AN.
Is it really that better than, say, 1x Pyroblast (works the same if not better against CB and Meddling Mage, and also works against Counterspells)?
Or even 1 more duress?

Joe_C
01-13-2009, 12:30 PM
Echoing Truth is awful, 2 damage on Ad Nauseum and is dead most of the time, that sounds awful.





After some more thought on it you are right, its not worth the addition. Although I am going to try out a few changes over the next week.



4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Forbidden Orchard


4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
3 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Chrome Mox
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Ad Nauseum
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor


SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:2 Vexing Shusher
SB:1 Wipeaway
SB:1 Duress

Bryant Cook
01-13-2009, 12:52 PM
Have you guys ever played against multiple hate cards? It seems like you guys have never sat down and seen an Arcane Laboratory, Gaddeck Teeg, Ethersworn Cannonist, Runed Halo or Meddling Mage. Chain of Vapor is amazing, you should give it a second shot instead of dismissing it based on first Impressions. It's never a dead card since it creates mana, storm and Threshold. I've used Chain of Vapor as a storm engine against Aggro so that I didn't have to Ad Nauseum or Ill-Gotten Gains and die to Burn.

Bruenor- Please explain your changes? Seriously, why the hell would you cut a Rite of Flame? Makes no sense. For a land none the less.

Joe_C
01-13-2009, 02:10 PM
Have you guys ever played against multiple hate cards? It seems like you guys have never sat down and seen an Arcane Laboratory, Gaddeck Teeg, Ethersworn Cannonist, Runed Halo or Meddling Mage. Chain of Vapor is amazing, you should give it a second shot instead of dismissing it based on first Impressions. It's never a dead card since it creates mana, storm and Threshold. I've used Chain of Vapor as a storm engine against Aggro so that I didn't have to Ad Nauseum or Ill-Gotten Gains and die to Burn.

Bruenor- Please explain your changes? Seriously, why the hell would you cut a Rite of Flame? Makes no sense. For a land none the less.

Bryant,

First off, I agree with your statements about chain of vapor. It has a shitload of uses.

I dropped a rite of flame and 1 nauseam to run +1 land, +1 mystical. Im not saying they will be permanent changes, I just want to run this configuration to see how it helped the flow of the deck. I went through 6 hands last night that had NO land in them whatsoever. Even mulling to 4 cards gave me no lands. That makes we want to up the land count, at least to see how my opening grips are benefitted. the addition of 1 mystical makes getting all of the other pieces of the puzzle easier. The loss of the 1 rite of flame seems minimal. Ill try it out for 100 hands or so and see what setup I like better. If I was going to keep the rite, I would probably -1 ponder. I think the deck could use the extra land

Bryant Cook
01-13-2009, 02:22 PM
You've read Rite of Flame right? You want to play the maximum number possible to achieve the greatest potential out of the card.

emidln
01-13-2009, 02:22 PM
While I haven't tested this extensively, the original list I bounced off Bryant was +1 Mystical Tutor, +1 Ponder, +2 Land in place of 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Cabal Ritual, and 2 Duress. It sounds like the changes you're making come pretty close to the list that Bryant originally rejected after testing saying that the extra lands were never good for him. I imagine he can expand more on that, but I'm willing to take his word on it enough to not revert.

Bryant Cook
01-13-2009, 02:26 PM
While I haven't tested this extensively, the original list I bounced off Bryant was +1 Mystical Tutor, +1 Ponder, +2 Land in place of 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Cabal Ritual, and 2 Duress. It sounds like the changes you're making come pretty close to the list that Bryant originally rejected after testing saying that the extra lands were never good for him. I imagine he can expand more on that, but I'm willing to take his word on it enough to not revert.

I didn't reject your list at all, I said it was very interesting and it's what made me retest Mystical. I just didn't care for the extra land. I've top 8'd the last two weekends with a total of 5 mulligans. I think it's safe to say that my list was doing fine with land. If I was to make room for more land it'd be -1 Cabal Ritual for land 11, then after that Duress.

Pulp_Fiction
01-13-2009, 02:54 PM
I have no form of luck at all, it does not matter how many hands I goldfish with any of the builds or how many times I rifle shuffle or pile shuffle the deck, I simply can't pull off 10 lands. And I am not doing anything wrong, I know how to play the deck, but I will not reliably get the deck to function right with 10 lands (people who know me can account for this, I have just unnatural bad luck). I upped the land count to 14 at one point and that was way to many. I settled on 12. 12 just feels like the right number and will have no where near the dramatic effect 14 would on Diminishing Returns.

@emidln: My current list is posted here and on the storm boards, check it out if you are looking for a good starting point for TES with more lands.

emidln
01-13-2009, 03:15 PM
I didn't reject your list at all, I said it was very interesting and it's what made me retest Mystical. I just didn't care for the extra land. I've top 8'd the last two weekends with a total of 5 mulligans. I think it's safe to say that my list was doing fine with land. If I was to make room for more land it'd be -1 Cabal Ritual for land 11, then after that Duress.

This is what I meant to say. I was trying commenting about the lands and how you tested the extra lands and decided that they weren't necessary. Sadly clarity is eluding me today. :(

@ Pulp_Fiction

I simply don't believe that TES wants more lands. My test list was designed because I kept hearing posters squabble about Mystical Tutor vs Ponder. I brought up to Bryant in IM that he could probably play both and suggested a (very greedy) list that had 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, and 3 Mystical Tutor in it. He did a lot of work testing and tuning it (eventually cutting and extra two lands that I added on the assumption that the list was slowed down enough to need to hit additional land drops (which turned out to be an incorrect assumption)) and then played his list to a great finish. After thinking about it quite a bit, I think adding lands to TES is fundamentally wrong because it moves you into a position where you are no longer attempting to just beat first tier disruption but you also run into second tier disruption and pressure from threats like burn, combat damage, and enemy win conditions. I don't think that TES is very well equipped to handle the extra disruption and pressure and would design the deck in a fundamentally different way (skipping ANT entirely to the slower Doomsday model) if I was going to play in such a way as to invite hate (which I think adding land that slows you down does). If you want to talk some more about it, I've written quite a bit about this that I can copy/paste you.

GreenOne
01-18-2009, 04:29 AM
Reading an interesting post of emidln in the DDFT thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=310023&postcount=1022) I was thinking about our strategy in the control matchup.

Emidln says, to sum the relevant part, that his experience shows that the more the game is a long one against counterspell- based decks, the more his chances of winning are high. This is due to:
#1- The high digging power the deck has (1 more cantrip than we do, 2 more Mysticals and 4 more tops)
#2- The ability of the deck to constantly hit land drops.
#3- Most of their disruption becomes worse as the game progresses: Daze is not a hard counter anymore and spell snare could be easily circumvent in FT, FoW is making card disadvantage even if you have some lands open (counterspell is better here).

It's obvious that we can count less on #1 cause our cantrip base is smaller, and we can't absolutely count on #2 cause we're playing 10 lands, and most of them are a mess when used too often (Mine dies, CoB/orchard are dealing us a lot of damage).
#3 doesn't work that well too, because unless we're chant protected, Spell Snare and Stifle are going to be a mess unless we're planning to go for AN, which becomes worse and worse as time passes by.

So, we absolutely don't want to go in the middle late game, cause our deck sucks in the late game, due to our lands and AN being worse and worse with turns passing by, and our chances decreasing as our opponent makes land drops and plays more and more problematic permanents (like counterbalance) and builds a hand of counterspells.

We wanna win when the opponent is counter-light, and try to be the aggressor.

That said, I wanna discuss our possible protection cards in the control matchup:

Orim's Chant:
Pros: It nullifies every counter disruption that's not Counterspell/Fow, can be used as test card, then go off next turn with one mana more and 1 less counter/chant in oppo hand. Forces non-interaction (that's what we want, to play solitaire).
Cons: It costs W in the combo turn.

Duress:
Pros: Doesn't cost mana on the combo turn. It's on color. It can take both counters/chants or permanents.
Cons: It takes just 1 card, so it's not great against opponents with multiple hate cards in hand. If not used on the combo turn, brainstorm can hide the cards we wanted to take.

Pyroblast:
Pros: Can both counter counterspells and CB. Can deal with blue permanents (like Meddling Mage and, to a lesser extent, CB)
Cons: It costs 1 mana on the combo turn, unless countering/destroying permanents. It's a nombo with hellbent cards (both IT and LED). It's BEBable. Doesn't work against Chant.

Vexing Shusher:
Pros: It's uncounterable. It makes our spell uncounterable, forcing near non-interaction. It beats for 2. It's great with Pyroblast against CB, and good with Chant.
Cons: It costs 2 mana + 1 mana per activation in the combo turn. Chants, Burn, Extirpates, Stifles, etc can still be played. It's BEBable, EEable, Needleable and Stiflable. Can't be tutored with Mystical.

Xantid Swarm:
Pros: It forces non interaction. Doesn't cost mana on the combo turn. It's re-usable, until answered.
Cons: It's stiflable and quite easily EEable. Doesn't have effect on the game until the turn after you played it. Nombo with upkeep sac LED + AN. Can't be tutored with Mystical.

Post SB the opponent is likely to get rid of their useless stuff like creature hate and board in some more relevant cards (blue cards for force, BEB, Chants, EE, whatever).

What about us?
Consider those factors:
- we're usually boarding in 4-5 cards against control (usually Shusher and Pyroblast)
- we're boarding out some number of cards between acceleration and cantrips
- our probability of having a 0-1 lander is 60%, while the probability of having a 2+ lands is 40%. This is not counting Wastelands your opponent might have, that are frequently played in blue decks (Dreadstill, Landstill, Tempo Thresh, TA)
- we still wanna win in the first turns of the game, cause our plan can't change post SB (#2 and #3 are still valid, while #1 becomes even worse).

The question is: why the hell are we playing Shusher?
- 60% of the time we'll need acceleration to cast it. It costs some mana on the combo turn and we already sided out acceleration.
- The opponent is likely to side in cards against him that are also useful against other cards in our deck (yeah, BEB).
- we can't reliably win fast while playing shusher due to the amount of resources it needs, thus working against our game plan.

Some might argue that it's our out against Counterbalance so we have to play it, but I don't believe it (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=308453&postcount=1001).

- The faster we'll kill, the less the probability the opponent has to play counterbalance. the opponent will draw CB by turn 2 the 44% of the time (57% if he brainstorm/ponder). This without counting the possibility of being manascrewed/color screwed (it happens especially to Dreadstill). The probability lowers if the opponent is looking for a FoW-protected hand too.
- We can discard CB with Duress.
- We can counter it with Pyroblast.
- We can destroy it with Pyroblast with a lot of luck.
- We can go off through it if the opponent reveals chaff (3cc, Fow or 1cc when we have 0-2 cc in hand) and doesn't have SDT or Brainstorm. Really needs luck.

The only thing that Shusher adds to the equation is:
- You have both shusher in play (remember the 2cc), a pyroblast in hand, and RR open. The probability of having both in hand by turn 2 is 10% (+2,5% each turn after), without counting possible mulligans, mana issues, and cantrips.
- You have shusher in play and LOADS of mana, I mean, really. Consider that if the opponent is countering all your 0-1-2CC spells with CB, you need to spend something like 7-8 red mana to get things through.
- EDIT: You can also have Mystical in hand and shusher in play, tutor (uncounterable) for a Pyroblast and play it uncounterable. Total cost: UR+UR+a draw step. Probability of having Shusher+Mystical: 4% first turn +2% each turn.
Probability of having either Shusher+Pyroblast or Shusher+Mystical: 12% in the first 8 cards, +3% each draw step.

So, I don't get how Shusher is helping our "win fast" plan at all. Can someone please explain it with a good and complete reasoning? I've heard some "I won many matches on the power of shusher", but that doesn't help me at all. Is there any fault in my observations?

BreathWeapon
01-18-2009, 06:12 AM
Agreed, the problem with Vexing Shusher is that it's slow and it's mana intensive, but more importantly it's antithetical to TES' game plan because it puts you into an "I have an answer for Counterbalance" mentality instead of a "I have a counter for Counterbalance" mentality, that's why Duress and Red Elemental Blast are just so well suited for this deck.

I honestly feel the same way about Orim's Chant, especially now that you've got Mystical Tutor to dig for it.

GreenOne
01-18-2009, 06:21 AM
Agreed, the problem with Vexing Shusher is that it's slow and it's mana intensive, but more importantly it's antithetical to TES' game plan because it puts you into an "I have an answer for Counterbalance" mentality instead of a "I have a counter for Counterbalance" mentality, that's why Duress and Red Elemental Blast are just so well suited for this deck.
Yeah. I'm testing a SB with 2 Duress, 2-3 Pyroblasts, 3-2 Xantid Swarm. I'm really happy with Swarm and Duress. Duress also shines in every non-blue matchup. What's your configuration?

BreathWeapon
01-18-2009, 06:51 AM
Yeah. I'm testing a SB with 2 Duress, 2-3 Pyroblasts, 3-2 Xantid Swarm. I'm really happy with Swarm and Duress. Duress also shines in every non-blue matchup. What's your configuration?

4 Duress and 1 Orim's Chant MD, 4 Red Elemental Blast and 1 Thoughtseize SB. Tho' I'm running the 4 Mystical Tutor, 0 Infernal Tutor and no MD WinCon set up, so I get more mileage out of 1 Orim's Chant than the other configurations.

I've also tried some more unorthodox configs, like boarding in the full sets of REB and Pyro and boarding out Chrome and LED to see if I could out counter the aggro-control decks and win before Goyfs rolled me over.

Joe_C
01-18-2009, 07:22 AM
4 Duress and 1 Orim's Chant MD, 4 Red Elemental Blast and 1 Thoughtseize SB. Tho' I'm running the 4 Mystical Tutor, 0 Infernal Tutor and no MD WinCon set up, so I get more mileage out of 1 Orim's Chant than the other configurations.

I've also tried some more unorthodox configs, like boarding in the full sets of REB and Pyro and boarding out Chrome and LED to see if I could out counter the aggro-control decks and win before Goyfs rolled me over.

No maindecked win condition? This seems really sketchy. The most solid way for this deck to win is Ill-Gotten Gains loop

GreenOne
01-18-2009, 07:24 AM
No maindecked win condition? This seems really sketchy. The most solid way for this deck to win is Ill-Gotten Gains loop

You can do it anyway with IT+2xLed.
LED, LED, IT, IGG, LED, LED, IT (break for RRRBBB), Burning Wish, Tendrils

Joe_C
01-18-2009, 07:26 AM
4 Duress and 1 Orim's Chant MD, 4 Red Elemental Blast and 1 Thoughtseize SB. Tho' I'm running the 4 Mystical Tutor, 0 Infernal Tutor and no MD WinCon set up, so I get more mileage out of 1 Orim's Chant than the other configurations.

I've also tried some more unorthodox configs, like boarding in the full sets of REB and Pyro and boarding out Chrome and LED to see if I could out counter the aggro-control decks and win before Goyfs rolled me over.


NOTE: he said NO IT main. Burning wish is his only out...

BreathWeapon
01-18-2009, 07:43 AM
Yeah, the problem is Mystical Tutor is better against control than Infernal Tutor, and you should be winning your aggro match ups regardless. Infernal Tutor is just a kill condition, it's worthless until you're ready to win, where Mystical Tutor can serve roughly the same purpose as Infernal Tutor while finding you the cards you need to put yourself into a position to win.

It's just different, personally I like mulliganing less.

Pulp_Fiction
01-18-2009, 02:47 PM
@greenone: Well thought out. I don't really see and fault in the logic. I do prefer Swarm to Shusher. The SB is always mete dependent, but 3x Swarm just feels right. I personally don't like Duress very much because everyone who has ever run a combo deck with Duress has cast it and seen something like: FoW, CB, Daze, Stifle, Goyf etc. And you look at the hand and think .... fuck, it gonna be a little while. Swarm would ravage that hand, especially if you are still running Simian Spirit Guide. I love 2 in the deck, it really helps you play against Daze and get another initial mana source off of AdN. I have also hardcast it in dire situations and turned it sideways! This is the SB I am currently playing and I am very satisfied with it:

1x IGG
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Cleanfall/Slaughter Pact
1x Slaughter Pact/Wipe Away/Chain of Vapor
2x Shattering Spree
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Pyroblast

The SB configuration changes. It just dawned on my that if you play Cleanfall in the SB, Enchantress is literally a bye. Just Burning Wish for it the turn before you are trying to go off then cast it next turn and go nuts, they have no instant answers, and no clock! So if Cleanfall is in the SB I prefer to run either 1x Chain of Vapor or 1x Wipe Away as an answer all type card. Another configuration, the one I still prefer, just running 2x Slaughter Pact. My meta has some Gaddock Teegs, True Believer, and other obnoxious creatures showing up now and again and Slaughter Pact kills them on the turn you are going to combo off, adds storm, and costs nothing!

I still hate Chain of Vapor since it is unable to answer a Chalice @ 1 and won't run it because of that. I really like having 1x Wipe Away in the side as an additional answer to Counterbalance. And as far as mid-late games go, I really think playing 12x lands greatly helps, as well as making mulligans less painful.

@ Breathweapon: If it works .... play it I guess, but with your list you are now making Meddling Mage an answer me NOW card or lose. I much prefer Infernal Tutor to Burning Wish in this deck and recently upped the count to 4. I used to run 3x Burning Wish and 3x Infernal Tutor but found out I needed 1x more. 4x Infernal Tutor is very important. You could absolutely get away with 3, no questions, but 0, I dont know. It is just great on those double LED + IT hands where you have the option to IGG loop (maybe you can only generate 9 storm and need more) or go the AdN route. Mystical Tutor really does slow the deck down. You could probably get away with playing 3x, but as a 4x of you might as well not play TES anymore. Try and build some U/B/r AdN Hybrid deck that runs 14-16 lands and runs the all important basic lands!

EDIT: YAY, post #400, WOOT!!

BreathWeapon
01-18-2009, 04:33 PM
Infernal Tutor isn't that much faster than Mystical Tutor, as long as Mystical Tutor sets up for the second turn win it's fine IMO. Meddling Mage isn't a big deal, for whatever reason I don't see Meddling Mage MD any more and if they name Burning Wish they fail pretty hard.

I could go either way, IT isn't bad by any means.

Bryant Cook
01-19-2009, 06:01 PM
Breathweapon - What happened? What made you decide to cut Infernal Tutor? Playing 4 Mystical and Chrome Mox seems awful, your hand must be gone incredibly fast versus control. No maindeck win condition is frankly dumb, you're back to scooping to Meddling Mage. Since you cut infernal, you cut Ill-Gotten Gains I'm assuming? You're no longer playing TES, but ANT with a 5c manabase.

Speaking about control, what are you people doing? I understand Shusher isn't incredibly fast, but have you played against control/aggro control? It normally goes into the mid-game. This is where Shusher shines. I took 3rd again this past weekend in Binghamton with a changed list. I cut paradise for a 2nd Forbidden Orchard. I lost 2 games in Hadley the previous weekend because my hand consisted of Mystical, Paradise, LED, Mox, (Black card), then irrelevancy. I couldn't end of turn Mystical for Nauseum win. The second change I made to was to the sideboard, I cut 1 Blast, 1 Duress for 2x Xantid Swarm. This Brings my control package to...

4x Orim's Chant MD
2x Duress MD
2x Pyroblast SB
2x Xantid Swarm SB
2x Veing Shusher SB
1x Wipe Away SB

I normally board out..

2x Infernal Tutor
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Duress (Makes Burning Wish better postboard)
1x ? Ponder

I like to keep the sideboard diverse, makes it harder to hate on. You don't always have to board it all in, if the opponent is playing blue but no balance I don't bring in Shusher or Wipeaway. Unless I lost game one, in which I try to stop blue as much as possible.

Also, someone mentioned boarding out Rite of Flame? I think this is a terrible idea, we need all the mana we can get. Although I haven't tested it, because well, it seems ridiculous. I rarely have Rite of Flame blasted, most of my opponents try and save them for Burning Wish/Shusher.

GreenOne
01-19-2009, 06:18 PM
Speaking about control, what are you people doing? I understand Shusher isn't incredibly fast, but have you played against control/aggro control? It normally goes into the mid-game. This is where Shusher shines. I took 3rd again this past weekend in Binghamton with a changed list. I cut paradise for a 2nd Forbidden Orchard. I lost 2 games in Hadley the previous weekend because my hand consisted of Mystical, Paradise, LED, Mox, (Black card), then irrelevancy. I couldn't end of turn Mystical for Nauseum win. The second change I made to was to the sideboard, I cut 1 Blast, 1 Duress for 2x Xantid Swarm. This Brings my control package to...

4x Orim's Chant MD
2x Duress MD
2x Pyroblast SB
2x Xantid Swarm SB
2x Veing Shusher SB
1x Wipe Away SB

I normally board out..

2x Infernal Tutor
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Duress (Makes Burning Wish better postboard)
1x ? Ponder

I like to keep the sideboard diverse, makes it harder to hate on. You don't always have to board it all in, if the opponent is playing blue but no balance I don't bring in Shusher or Wipeaway. Unless I lost game one, in which I try to stop blue as much as possible.

Also, someone mentioned boarding out Rite of Flame? I think this is a terrible idea, we need all the mana we can get. Although I haven't tested it, because well, it seems ridiculous. I rarely have Rite of Flame blasted, most of my opponents try and save them for Burning Wish/Shusher.
The problem I had with shusher against balance is that you need a hand with a quite high number of lands to take advantage of it, and the deck can't reliably mull for a hand with lands. What I did not consider in my analysis is that the Mystical->Wipe Away/Pyroblast can be an added way of removing CB. Seems slow as hell and costy (total cost UR+UR+a draw step) but it works.

The questions I wanna ask you are:
- what percentage of games are you winning if a counterbalance lands?
- what percentage of games are you winning if a counterbalance lands and you have a shusher in hand/play?
I believe this is the only way of knowing if it's worth it.

Meanwhile, I updated my previous post with added probabilities:


The only thing that Shusher adds to the equation is:
- You have both shusher in play (remember the 2cc), a pyroblast in hand, and RR open. The probability of having both in hand by turn 2 is 10% (+2,5% each turn after), without counting possible mulligans, mana issues, and cantrips.
- You have shusher in play and LOADS of mana, I mean, really. Consider that if the opponent is countering all your 0-1-2CC spells with CB, you need to spend something like 7-8 red mana to get things through.
- EDIT: You can also have Mystical in hand and shusher in play, tutor (uncounterable) for a Pyroblast and play it uncounterable. Total cost: UR+UR+a draw step. Probability of having Shusher+Mystical: 4% first turn +2% each turn.
- Probability of having either Shusher+Pyroblast or Shusher+Mystical: 12% in the first 8 cards, +3% each draw step.

You're surely better than me with shusher, so maybe I missed some more tricks.

BreathWeapon
01-20-2009, 05:39 AM
Breathweapon - What happened? What made you decide to cut Infernal Tutor? Playing 4 Mystical and Chrome Mox seems awful, your hand must be gone incredibly fast versus control. No maindeck win condition is frankly dumb, you're back to scooping to Meddling Mage. Since you cut infernal, you cut Ill-Gotten Gains I'm assuming? You're no longer playing TES, but ANT with a 5c manabase.


There's a difference between a win condition and a kill condition, your win condition is Ad Nauseam, your kill condition is Burning Wish, and Meddling Mage on Burning Wish is irrelevant when Ad Nauseam draws you into your tutor/bounce. As long as Meddling Mage has to choose between Ad Nauseam and Burning Wish, you're usually fine, and you can always board in a Tendrils of Agony as they board in Meddling Mage.

Note: Meddling Mage isn't MD in my meta

Yeah, if you define TES by the presence of Infernal Tutor, then I'm playing 5cc ANT. I don't seem to have a problem with -CA with both Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor, usually I don't play either of them until I'm trying to win the game. It only becomes a problem when I have to dig for Orim's Chant and I only have one land etc., but I've gotten use to playing both of them in ANT and it doesn't really seem that bad any more.

I'm not saying this is the way TES should go, I'm just saying it's a viable way for TES to go, and it's what I'm playing at the moment.

Edit: Thank god you cut Undiscovered Paradise, that card has fucking sucked forever.

Joe_C
01-20-2009, 12:28 PM
Ive been playing with 3 mystical tutor and 1 Ad nauseam for the past few days. I also dropped undiscovered paradise for the same reason Bryant did. Going to 1 Ad nauseam allows for deeper digging without fear of death when you do resolve it.

rsaunder
01-20-2009, 12:50 PM
Especially in a deck like this that doesn't rely solely on AdN (IGG loop etc.) I think 1 is the correct number. It cuts down the average cc so much, and mystical tutor is quite useful outside of just comboing out.

Bryant Cook
01-20-2009, 01:17 PM
The problem I had with shusher against balance is that you need a hand with a quite high number of lands to take advantage of it, and the deck can't reliably mull for a hand with lands. What I did not consider in my analysis is that the Mystical->Wipe Away/Pyroblast can be an added way of removing CB. Seems slow as hell and costy (total cost UR+UR+a draw step) but it works.
The questions I wanna ask you are:
- what percentage of games are you winning if a counterbalance lands?
- what percentage of games are you winning if a counterbalance lands and you have a shusher in hand/play?
I believe this is the only way of knowing if it's worth it.
With Shusher you only need 2 lands or 1 land and a Mox. That’s all you ever really need, then you cast Rite of Flames. More lands is a similar function as Rite of Flames, also LED mana is awesome with Shusher. I’ve never used Mystical to get Pyroblast with Shusher in play, instead of wasting a turn and blowing it up, you could simply pay the mana. I’ve never done the math with Counterbalance resolving and shusher, although, I have to say I’ve won plenty of games with and without Shusher.

Ive been playing with 3 mystical tutor and 1 Ad nauseam for the past few days. I also dropped undiscovered paradise for the same reason Bryant did. Going to 1 Ad nauseam allows for deeper digging without fear of death when you do resolve it.
What happens if your opponent Thoughtsiezes Ad Nauseum or the first one gets Forced? Your stuck with Ill-Gotten Gains against Blue which probably means you’re going to have to switch game plan half way through the game to find 2x Chant, tutor, tons of mana for the Igg Loop. Seems terrible, two is the correct number in case something happens.

Joe_C
01-20-2009, 02:09 PM
Im not sure it is something that anyone has tried, but has anyone ever thought or running reclaim, or even regrowth(as a wish target)

Bryant Cook
01-20-2009, 02:14 PM
Im not sure it is something that anyone has tried, but has anyone ever thought or running reclaim, or even regrowth(as a wish target)

Why? Reclaim is an instant, Regrowth is a sorcery. Why regrowth, when you can Ill-Gotten Gains? It's a wasted slot.

rsaunder
01-20-2009, 03:34 PM
I've honestly never had a problem with a 1x nauseam in non-TES storm. Against blue decks, it's generally pretty easy to get 10 spells played in one turn (via protected IGG or counterwar). TES also has Wish=>Dreturns.

I don't know if cutting one for MT#3 is the correct play, but it certainly seems solid from how I've seen TES comboing off in recent tournaments.

emidln
01-20-2009, 03:36 PM
Non-TES AdN decks have more lands to search for protection with and to provide initial mana with. They're far better suited to handling the situation that their 1-of AdN hits the yard via going for Infernal -> IGG after digging for a few turns or going for an alternate win via Doomsday than TES is of doing the same thing (specifically the protected Infernal-> IGG). TES solves this problem by playing a second AdN or maybe going Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns.

subway-guy
01-20-2009, 04:08 PM
I have recently picked up and started playing with this deck (my recent deck spring tide is obsolete). Currently I have read the first post and I have some questions.


1. What turn should I be doing something/going off? You say it's a turn and a half faster that Iggy Pop but when does Iggy Pop go off?

2.What are the usual targets for burning wish for? Is it mainly used as Chrome Mox food and hate answers?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

SuperBean
01-20-2009, 05:15 PM
Before anyone else jumps in...

The deck is very capable of going off turn one, and winning. For example:

(D. Ritual, D. Ritual, Ad Nauseum) Draw enough cards to up your storm count to 9-10 and then Tendrils them.

That is probably one of the loosest examples that I could give you to explain why the deck is much faster then Iggy-Pop.

And Burning Wish is there to provide with an out once you've ramped your storm count high enough, it supplies you with Empty the Warrens and Tendrils. And if you have to deal with someone like Teeg or Cannonist (SP?) you have Grapeshot in the board which ultimately helps you up your storm count on top of getting rid of whats in the way. I personally use Diminishing Returns in my board as well, it's a great way to get your storm count half way with a semi-good hand, and then have a totally new hand to abuse and up your storm count.

Dark_Cynic87
01-22-2009, 03:13 PM
Iggy Pop.






Iggy Pop.



What?

GreenOne
01-22-2009, 03:42 PM
What?
http://apohal.files.wordpress.com/2006/09/3__iggypop1.jpg

EDIT: I saw you joined in february, so maybe you weren't kidding. Iggypop (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10989.html) was a Combo deck that evoluted into Fetchland tendrils. It was a UB(w) deck based on Intuition (usually for IGG), IT, Ill-Gotten Gains, Tendrils and Leyline of the void. It won by comboing with multiple IGG into tendrils or with acceleration and double tendrils. It protected the combo from recurring discard with leyline of the void. Leyline also allowed to mindtwist the opponent on turn 1-2 in combo with a single IGG.
Right now the deck is obsolete.

Dark_Cynic87
01-22-2009, 04:33 PM
No, I know what IGGY Pop is/was, I just don't understand why the hell it's being talked about...I wanted to play combo a long time ago, but couldn't afford the Grims at that point. I started acquiring them and got 2x about the time FT was in it's beginning stages (i.e. street wraith version).

It was a pretty sarcastic "what".

Pce,

--DC

P.S.--The pic made me giggle inside a little bit.

Corwin
01-23-2009, 07:45 PM
I haven't read this thread for a while, and it looks like Simian Spirit Guide is out of the deck now, am I right?

GreenOne
01-23-2009, 07:55 PM
I haven't read this thread for a while, and it looks like Simian Spirit Guide is out of the deck now, am I right?
Yeah, after testing it seemed to work just bad with Ad Nauseam. 3 damage was a lot, and you could draw more than 2.5 cards (average) with those life. Mystical Tutor was found a good substitution, finding both acceleration (usually dark rit or Threshed Cabal Rituals) or Ad Nauseam/Tutor or even Protection or SB cards. It's overall more versatile.

Dark_Cynic87
01-23-2009, 09:19 PM
Yeah, after testing it seemed to work just bad with Ad Nauseam. 3 damage was a lot, and you could draw more than 2.5 cards (average) with those life. Mystical Tutor was found a good substitution, finding both acceleration (usually dark rit or Threshed Cabal Rituals) or Ad Nauseam/Tutor or even Protection or SB cards. It's overall more versatile.

Bryant: "Why thank you, DC and GreenOne, for pounding it into my head that Mystical Tutor deserved another look in TES. I guess I was wrong."

DC: "No problem, Bryant! We all make mistakes."

:cool: :tongue:

Ebinsugewa
01-23-2009, 11:25 PM
Yeah, after testing it seemed to work just bad with Ad Nauseam. 3 damage was a lot, and you could draw more than 2.5 cards (average) with those life. Mystical Tutor was found a good substitution, finding both acceleration (usually dark rit or Threshed Cabal Rituals) or Ad Nauseam/Tutor or even Protection or SB cards. It's overall more versatile.

Frontpage update? :(

matelml
01-24-2009, 06:44 AM
Bryant: "Why thank you, DC and GreenOne, for pounding it into my head that Mystical Tutor deserved another look in TES. I guess I was wrong."

DC: "No problem, Bryant! We all make mistakes."

:cool: :tongue:

Well, Mystcial was pretty horrible in TES pre-AdN.

GreenOne
01-24-2009, 08:45 AM
Well, Mystcial was pretty horrible in TES pre-AdN.
It was, because the deck had better fillers (SSG, draw4s) for its vacant slots. Ad Nauseam alone shaked the way that combo decks were going to be played. It happens rarely, but I love when Wizards prints good combo cards: combo decks are not exactly what Wizards want to support.

troopatroop
01-24-2009, 04:11 PM
Bryant: "Why thank you, DC and GreenOne, for pounding it into my head that Mystical Tutor deserved another look in TES. I guess I was wrong."

DC: "No problem, Bryant! We all make mistakes."

:cool: :tongue:

By that logic, we should take another look at Manamorphose too right? In all seriousness, I'm loving the new build. 2 Mystical 2 AdN is perfect.

Omega
01-24-2009, 09:45 PM
The SB strategy against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Vexing Shusher
-3 Ponder
-2 Simian Spirit Guide

Assuming the current list does not have shimian spirit guide, what are the 2 other cards that see the cut?

Is cutting the ponder the good choice? Ponder helps finding answers

Against other control deck, is sbording stategy the same?
Control with/out CB

Limz
01-25-2009, 06:28 AM
The SB strategy against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Vexing Shusher
-3 Ponder
-2 Simian Spirit Guide

Assuming the current list does not have shimian spirit guide, what are the 2 other cards that see the cut?

Is cutting the ponder the good choice? Ponder helps finding answers

Against other control deck, is sbording stategy the same?
Control with/out CB

I'd cut Cabal Ritual if you don't have SSG

Joe_C
01-25-2009, 08:53 AM
I played TES yesterday at the Manchester tournament. Going 2-3 in swiss.Brief recap:

round 1 vs merfolk:
I drop turn 1 mine. He drops mutavault, vial, pass. I mystical EOT for a dark rit. My turn, draw, ritual, ritual, nauseam(resolves), I get down to 2 without seeing enough mana sources to combo out. I pass(discarding 7 cards), he untaps, plays island and swings with vault(we laugh at the turn 2 win he got with merfolk)

game 2 i bring in blasts and xantids:
I get a great protection heavy hand, but cant draw enough business before the little blue men kill me.

round 2: goblins
game 1 I turn 2 nauseam after chain of vaporing his lackey back to his hand. I get gains loop for the win

game 2: he drops chalice at 0 turn 1(my hand was mine, LED, LED, brainstorm, AN, petal, ponder-turn 2 win(?), wasteland, vial. I ponder turn 1, my land gets wasted, then he drops another wasteland, then another. He gets creatures vialed in, gg.

game3: i tell him I really need to win turn 1 to be safe: my openeing 7: orchard, LED, LED, IT, tendrils, petal, dark ritual. Awesome

round 3:Imperial Painter
game1: he gets relic out turn 1. I have the nuts to go off, and he has the simian spirit guide in his hand to blast the grave away when I Gains(frown town)

Game 2: I have a mediocre hand with shattering spree and pyroblast(awesome), he gets magus out turn 2. THen a painter, i ask "color?" he says blue, he goes to attack and I pyroblast the magus, he didnt see that coming :wink: He drops chalice at 2, i shattering spree the chalice and the painter. He nails me with the spirit tokens I gave him off orchard. He ends up getting trini out since I am not drawing any heat. He ends up getting grindstone out and winning shortly after.

round 4: survival (Jaynel)-( he got paried down against me, if he would have asked for my record or even said anything I would have scooped to him)
game 1: I win turn 2 with a gains loop. I chanted him on his turn to prevent thoughtseize etc...
game 2: i have a hand with a TON of acceleration and no business, but i have a duress and a brainstorm. He duressed me taking brainstorm. I duress him seeing 2 creatures and lands. I get a burning wish off my topdeck, and he has only drawn 2 cards since i duressed so i go all in for an empty the warrens for 14 tokens. they take him down in 2 turns.

round 5: aggro loam
not sure what he was playing so I keep a moderate hand. He gets chalice for 1 out early followed by a crusher. I cant get another red source to replicate the spree I wished for(used a petal). he takes me down quick

game 2. Thinking back on it, I made a play error here and could have won outright instead of IT'ing for AN. But hey, first time playing with the deck, Im bound to make 1 mistake for 5 rounds.

Cut to top 8 and obv Im not in it.

I would have to say, AN is the best and worst card in this deck. I know most are arguementative to keeping 2 in there(which I played) but they fucking kill me.

Bryant Cook
01-25-2009, 11:29 AM
The SB strategy against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Vexing Shusher
-3 Ponder
-2 Simian Spirit Guide

Assuming the current list does not have shimian spirit guide, what are the 2 other cards that see the cut?

Is cutting the ponder the good choice? Ponder helps finding answers

Against other control deck, is sbording stategy the same?
Control with/out CB

You want Ponders, board out 2 Infernal 2 Cabal Ritual then ponders.

I played TES yesterday at the Manchester tournament. Going 2-3 in swiss.Brief recap:

round 1 vs merfolk:
I drop turn 1 mine. He drops mutavault, vial, pass. I mystical EOT for a dark rit. My turn, draw, ritual, ritual, nauseam(resolves), I get down to 2 without seeing enough mana sources to combo out. I pass(discarding 7 cards), he untaps, plays island and swings with vault(we laugh at the turn 2 win he got with merfolk)

round 3:Imperial Painter
game1: he gets relic out turn 1. I have the nuts to go off, and he has the simian spirit guide in his hand to blast the grave away when I Gains(frown town)
Why wouldn't you stop before going low enough to die to Mutavault? Also, Ad Nauseum? You don't take chances like that with relic in play.

Joe_C
01-25-2009, 12:03 PM
Why wouldn't you stop before going low enough to die to Mutavault? Also, Ad Nauseum? You don't take chances like that with relic in play.

My last card I flipped was gains, so it took me down fast, all I needed was a chrome mox to win.

And the ONLY card that could have stopped me from winning with relic in play was SSG. He had it, if I had waited he would have been able to sit on relic.... You cant tell me you would not have gone for the throat and played the chance that he didnt have 1 of his 4 ofs in his hand.

loop
01-25-2009, 12:18 PM
And the ONLY card that could have stopped me from winning with relic in play was SSG. He had it, if I had waited he would have been able to sit on relic.... You cant tell me you would not have gone for the throat and played the chance that he didnt have 1 of his 4 ofs in his hand.
I think what Bryant meant was that you could've tutored for Ad Nauseam instead of IGG: you should win anyway and you don't expose yourself to relic.

Joe_C
01-25-2009, 12:19 PM
I think what Bryant meant was that you could've tutored for Ad Nauseam instead of IGG: you should win anyway and you don't expose yourself to relic.

aside from the fact you cant burning wish for Ad Nauseam

loop
01-25-2009, 12:24 PM
Well, if your only business was 2x BWish it's different obviously, I assumed you had 1 IT.

Joe_C
01-25-2009, 12:29 PM
Well, if your only business was 2x BWish it's different obviously, I assumed you had 1 IT.

My turn was: land, dark ritual, infernal tutor(reveal LED), play LED, LED, lotus petal, burning wish(cracking LED's). It was savage, it was either wait a turn anyways and probably get shut down my magus or something. I still feel attempting the turn 1 was the best chance I had at winning this match

Bryant Cook
01-25-2009, 12:30 PM
aside from the fact you cant burning wish for Ad Nauseam

Diminishing Returns. My point being don't walk into hate, especially when it's on the table.

Joe_C
01-25-2009, 12:35 PM
Diminishing Returns. My point being don't walk into hate, especially when it's on the table.

eh, fair enough this was a valid play to make..... But i would have kicked myself if knowing I could have just won turn 1. I still think the percentages were in my favor to succeed

loop
01-25-2009, 12:37 PM
My turn was: land, dark ritual, infernal tutor(reveal LED), play LED, LED, lotus petal, burning wish(cracking LED's). It was savage, it was either wait a turn anyways and probably get shut down my magus or something. I still feel attempting the turn 1 was the best chance I had at winning this match
Land, petal, dark ritual, LED, IT -> Ad nauseam?

Joe_C
01-25-2009, 12:40 PM
Land, petal, dark ritual, LED, IT -> Ad nauseam?

again, only a possibility that I will win after nauseam. Its not a definite victory. Nauseam killed me twice yesterday. Its a great card, but the WORST way to win for this deck as it can fail

b4r0n
01-25-2009, 12:41 PM
My turn was: land, dark ritual, infernal tutor(reveal LED), play LED, LED, lotus petal, burning wish(cracking LED's). It was savage, it was either wait a turn anyways and probably get shut down my magus or something. I still feel attempting the turn 1 was the best chance I had at winning this match

Also, you could have just gone Land, Petal, Ritual, LED, Infernal popping LED for Ad Nauseam. You'd have 0 floating but no pressure on the board, so you could kill the next turn if you really needed to.

EDIT: Oops, Sarnath'd. But still, I think I'd rather take the chance of Ad Nauseam-ing at 20 life with a clear board than going for IGG with a Relic in play.

loop
01-25-2009, 01:55 PM
I still think the percentages were in my favor to succeed

again, only a possibility that I will win after nauseam. Its not a definite victory. Nauseam killed me twice yesterday.
I'm sorry, but that sounds really stupid to me.
Unless I'm mistaken, he has around 40% chance to have 1 of a 4-of in his hand, do you think that the odds of Ad Nauseam killing you while you're at 20 life are higher?

Pulp_Fiction
01-25-2009, 07:35 PM
@ bruenor: The first thing I thought about was, why the hell didn't you just Empty the Warrens? I gather that this was your opening hand correct:
IT, BW, Land, LED, Petal, Dark Ritual, something irrelevant. Diminishing Returns is also a viable option, however, he could potentially have SSG + Blast in hand to stop that. EtW is the safest choice here since it is unlikely he has City/Tomb, Grindstone, Painter in hand and won't be able to combo you out within the next 2 turns you give him but it is possible. Casting turn 1 Ad Nauseam against a deck like this is never bad. If you don't draw enough resources to win, you most likely will be able to win on turn 2 afterwards. I think in this situation EtW for 14 is the best play since it is very unlikely he will be able to combo you out. But he could potentially drop a savage turn 2 Moon effect that may or may not mess you up depending on what was revealed VIA Ad Nauseam.

A small note about playing combo, there are certain players who, despite their best efforts, should not play a combo deck. You can't be afraid of casting cards like Ad Nauseam or Diminishing Returns, and if you are, the only advice is to suck it up and cast them anyway. But a good combo player knows when to mull a bad hand, what hands to keep against certain decks, understands the format fully so they can adapt to the hate cards, and, IMOP the most important, you just have to have that go-for-it mentality. Combo is usually not a good type of deck to play if you are cautious, but it is important to know when to exercise a little caution and when to just go for it.

Bryant Cook
01-26-2009, 11:45 AM
A small note about playing combo, there are certain players who, despite their best efforts, should not play a combo deck. You can't be afraid of casting cards like Ad Nauseam or Diminishing Returns, and if you are, the only advice is to suck it up and cast them anyway. But a good combo player knows when to mull a bad hand, what hands to keep against certain decks, understands the format fully so they can adapt to the hate cards, and, IMOP the most important, you just have to have that go-for-it mentality. Combo is usually not a good type of deck to play if you are cautious, but it is important to know when to exercise a little caution and when to just go for it.

I think this may be the first thing you've ever said that I agree with.

Joe_C
01-26-2009, 12:27 PM
Being that it was the first time I played this deck competetively, I will learn from my mistakes. Im not in fear of playing nauseam, the card is seriously busted. I know it is a risk you take to win, I have no problem with that. I was more determined to win that turn than to ETW and win 1-2 turns later. Mistakes were made, not a big deal for a first run. The deck is seriously a blast to play.

GreenOne
01-26-2009, 12:33 PM
Being that it was the first time I played this deck competetively, I will learn from my mistakes. Im not in fear of playing nauseam, the card is seriously busted. I know it is a risk you take to win, I have no problem with that. I was more determined to win that turn than to ETW and win 1-2 turns later. Mistakes were made, not a big deal for a first run. The deck is seriously a blast to play.
Yeah, the deck needs a lot of practice in real games (hopefully you goldfished it enough). You'll do better next time.

Raindown
01-26-2009, 01:22 PM
So I'm still getting the hang of playing this deck, it is way more complicated then Ad Nauseam --> haha I win.

Can you guys explain the proper use of IGG and Diminishing returns? I think I am missing the 'IGG loop' idea that I keep hearing. Also Diminishing Returns = SB quasi Ad Nauseam ?

GreenOne
01-26-2009, 02:01 PM
So I'm still getting the hang of playing this deck, it is way more complicated then Ad Nauseam --> haha I win.

Can you guys explain the proper use of IGG and Diminishing returns? I think I am missing the 'IGG loop' idea that I keep hearing. Also Diminishing Returns = SB quasi Ad Nauseam ?
IGG sample hand:
LED, Dark ritual, Petal, Petal, Land, Infernal tutor.

Play land, petal, Petal, D.Rit, LED
Play Infernal Tutor, Brake LED in responce (BBBBBB in pool)
Find IGG, play it (BB in pool)
Take LED, Dark ritual, Infernal tutor from graveyard
Play LED, D.Rit
Play Infernal Tutor, brake LED in responce (BBBBB in pool)
Find Tendrils and play it for 20 life.

So, you basically have to play a bunch of acceleration, IGG, take back a tutor+2 acceleration pieces and find tendrils.
PROs:
- You can't fizzle
- You don't need life points
WARNINGs:
- Can't be used with graveyard hate online
- Count well the mana and storm or you'll get screwed
- Your opponents are discarding their hand and taking 3 from grave too, so watch out for possible counterspells/stifles/chants/whatever in their graveyard.
- Burning wish removes itself from the game, so you can't get the trick done unless there's a second B.Wish or an Infernal Tutor involved (in hand or graveyard).

Diminishing Returns is basically used when you can't go for Empty the warrens or IGG (maybe you don't have a second tutor in hand or graveyard) and don't have ways (or you are too low on life) to go for Ad Nauseam. You basically float all the mana you can and draw 7, trying to find the win. I particularly use it against discard, where you just play your artifact mana and once you topdeck a Mystical tutor or Infernal Tutor you can go for AN, if you topdeck a burning wish you go for D.Returns.

Here are your approximate chances of winning with Diminishing Returns:
Still having a landdrop:
in pool:
0: 12%
B: 47%
UB: 74%
UBR: 88%
4: 89%

Already having made a landdrop:
in pool:
0: 2%
B: 16%
UB: 47%
UBR: 71%
4: 82%

PROs:
- It's good to go for a turn 1 Diminishing Returns if you can play a land and a bunch of mana. Your new hand can either win you the game now or give you card advantage (you have 7 cards and a land and maybe a petal in play). Your opponent will get 7 new cards and maybe a worse hand that he can't mulligan.
- Good against discard
- Good against graveyard based strategies (Ichorid, Loam), cause they shuffle their graveyard

WARNINGS:
- Your opponents will get a fresh new 7 too. This may mean new stifles/counterspells/chants/extiprates/whatever
- You may remove some important cards from the deck. If you remove both Ad Nauseam you'll just can't find one with an Infernal Tutor. If you remove your Tendrils you'll have to play a Burning Wish to win.

Pulp_Fiction
01-26-2009, 02:11 PM
The IGG loop is simple Infernal Tutor + enough mana to cast it and 2x Lion's Eye Diamonds. Ideally this is a situation where Ad nauseam is good. With only access to 1x IGG MD and a little mana short you just fetch out AdN and win, but if you have 5 spells + IGG then it makes for 11 storm. Storm count 4, play IT (5), put it on the stack and blow up LEDs for 6 black, fetch out IGG and cast it (6), bring back LED, LED, IT, play both LEDs (8), cast IT (9), place it on the stack and blow up LEDs for 6 black, fetch out IT and cast it (10) then fetch out Tendrils (11). Just practice with the deck, this varies, sometimes you have enough mana to IT -> BW -> IGG and can get sick storm by just fetching out Burning Wishes and getting IGG back. The IGG loop can also be achieved LED, Dark Ritual, IT and a few mana floating but most of the time you are have 5-4 man floating and can't get the extra IT/BW in so it goes for 1 less storm.

Diminishing Returns is great when you are in serious troubles from hand destruction, maybe your acceleration is lacking, it is also wise to use this against burn since AdN can get you into multiple Bolt + Fireblast range.

Raindown
01-26-2009, 03:00 PM
Thanks GreenOne and Pulp_Fiction, I'm sure there has been many times where I did not see my way to a win condition. Currently I'm relying too much on Ad N. so I'd like to starting exploring all the offerings of the deck.

conboy31
01-26-2009, 06:47 PM
Thanks GreenOne and Pulp_Fiction, I'm sure there has been many times where I did not see my way to a win condition. Currently I'm relying too much on Ad N. so I'd like to starting exploring all the offerings of the deck.

This may sound odd as it changes the versatility of the deck, but maybe try going back to an earlier version of TES pre-shards. Goldfishing that will get you accustomed to the igg loops, burning wishes, and the diminishing returns kills. Then adding a pair or two of Ad N will give you the option of simply draw x cards and storm on their face.

Dark_Cynic87
01-26-2009, 07:22 PM
The IGG loop is simple Infernal Tutor + enough mana to cast it and 2x Lion's Eye Diamonds. Ideally this is a situation where Ad nauseam is good. With only access to 1x IGG MD and a little mana short you just fetch out AdN and win, but if you have 5 spells + IGG then it makes for 11 storm. Storm count 4, play IT (5), put it on the stack and blow up LEDs for 6 black, fetch out IGG and cast it (6), bring back LED, LED, IT, play both LEDs (8), cast IT (9), place it on the stack and blow up LEDs for 6 black, fetch out IT and cast it (10) then fetch out Tendrils (11). Just practice with the deck, this varies, sometimes you have enough mana to IT -> BW -> IGG and can get sick storm by just fetching out Burning Wishes and getting IGG back. The IGG loop can also be achieved LED, Dark Ritual, IT and a few mana floating but most of the time you are have 5-4 man floating and can't get the extra IT/BW in so it goes for 1 less storm.

Diminishing Returns is great when you are in serious troubles from hand destruction, maybe your acceleration is lacking, it is also wise to use this against burn since AdN can get you into multiple Bolt + Fireblast range.

I like the IGG loop much better than I do D. Returns against burn because I'd rather give them their responses and 3 cards than their responses plus an additional 7. It also does depend on what's already in their graveyard, but not much.

I run into burn around here from time to time and is the main reason I keep an additional IGG and IT in my sideboard when in my FDDT list.

Also, when I played TES not that long ago I would keep an IT in my sideboard to wish into. It made it easier to combo off will all black mana, requiring only one red to combo off with all black rits.

Pce,

--DC

Bryant Cook
01-27-2009, 10:55 PM
I like the IGG loop much better than I do D. Returns against burn because I'd rather give them their responses and 3 cards than their responses plus an additional 7. It also does depend on what's already in their graveyard, but not much.

I run into burn around here from time to time and is the main reason I keep an additional IGG and IT in my sideboard when in my FDDT list.

Also, when I played TES not that long ago I would keep an IT in my sideboard to wish into. It made it easier to combo off will all black mana, requiring only one red to combo off with all black rits.

Pce,

--DC

Yeah...I love giving my opponent bolt bolt Fireblast back. I generally try to not use a storm engine. Just use multiple cantrips or Chain of Vapor to make storm.

yawg07
01-28-2009, 12:27 AM
I started playing a 1x Echoing Truth in th main over Chain of Vapor. I found that I like it much better.
Main reason is because Chalice is everywhere right now and nobody around here is dumb enough to lay it at 0 instead of 1.
Chain of Vapor does not bounce Chalice at one :(

J.V.
01-28-2009, 12:41 AM
I started playing a 1x Echoing Truth in th main over Chain of Vapor. I found that I like it much better.
Main reason is because Chalice is everywhere right now and nobody around here is dumb enough to lay it at 0 instead of 1.
Chain of Vapor does not bounce Chalice at one :(

With AdN its easier to win through Chalice at 1 than Chalice at 0... if anything you should be going yay! Christmas.

Di
01-28-2009, 12:47 AM
I started playing a 1x Echoing Truth in th main over Chain of Vapor. I found that I like it much better.
Main reason is because Chalice is everywhere right now and nobody around here is dumb enough to lay it at 0 instead of 1.
Chain of Vapor does not bounce Chalice at one :(

Chain of Vapor is big for ramping up your own storm in a pinch though. There are numerous occasions where you might play out some 0cc artifacts then cast Chain of Vapor, copy it a number of times sacrificing all your lands, then replay them all to bump your storm by a good 5-6. That's a lot stronger than Echoing Truth game one right there, plus Truth's argument is a bit weaker given Chalice isn't a very popular maindeck card.

GreenOne
01-28-2009, 04:53 AM
Yeah...I love giving my opponent bolt bolt Fireblast back. I generally try to not use a storm engine. Just use multiple cantrips or Chain of Vapor to make storm.
I never had problem with burn. Even if you don't storm for the win, dealing only 10-14 dmg, it's like a 3+ timewalks for you. You can often combo when they have a single land in play. They're also playing Sorcery burn, so sometimes they're also tapped out. Is the burn matchup that crucial? I don't get it, because we're the faster combo deck of the two, aren't we?

Shizzow
01-28-2009, 09:51 AM
Hey folks,

I test Bryants last version of TES at the moment. I started playing Legacy with Cret-Belcher some months ago, then switched to Dredge, and came back to Belcher again. Now, I am a bit bored of both of them. And TES seems to be a good option.

I still have problems with playing around FOW or stifle. [My meta is full of Forces.] There are just 2 Brainstorm and 2 Duress main. (And Orims Chant of course, but one play or the other I have problems to cast Chant and go off...) Would love to hear some hints of you, Johnnys.

Regards,
Shizzow

Arsenal
01-28-2009, 10:18 AM
I thought TES ran 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder, plus the new addition of 2 Mystical Tutor. That's a lot of dig to find your 2 Duress + 4 Orim's Chant.

Shizzow
01-28-2009, 10:42 AM
Pardon, I meant 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder and 2 Mystical Tutors

So yeah, what you just posted.

Arsenal
01-28-2009, 10:50 AM
Stifle, assuming they're holding onto it for your lethal Tendrils, shouldn't be a problem if you Ad Nauseam; you will typically flip one/multiple Chant/Duress during your 15-20 card binge. Once you stop Ad Nauseam, you basically can vomit your hand (I'm assuming lots of mana), play Chant/Duress, or tutor & draw for a protection spell.

yawg07
01-28-2009, 11:34 AM
With AdN its easier to win through Chalice at 1 than Chalice at 0... if anything you should be going yay! Christmas.
Not when they go 2-tap land, Chalice for 1.
There are A LOT OF 1-CC in this deck. Chalice for 0 is easily played around, Chalice for one pretty much halts you because you can't do ...

Mystical
Brainstorm
Ponder
Dark Ritual
Rite of Flame

That's 17 cards.
Then add Duress and Chant and you're looking at another 6-7.
More than a 3rd of the deck. And most all of those are dig or mana.

X-Stompy and Stax have always been big around here.
Maybe it is a meta choice, I dunno. But I've started winning many more games I would have lost because of E.Truth



Chain of Vapor is big for ramping up your own storm in a pinch though. There are numerous occasions where you might play out some 0cc artifacts then cast Chain of Vapor, copy it a number of times sacrificing all your lands, then replay them all to bump your storm by a good 5-6. That's a lot stronger than Echoing Truth game one right there, plus Truth's argument is a bit weaker given Chalice isn't a very popular maindeck card.

I understand that, I've played enough Vintage. But since when does this deck need to do that very much?
I've even Ad nauseam'd at 6 life before and didn't need to do that.
I get where you are coming from, but game one I'd rather be prepared for artifact decks.

Again, maybe a meta call. Fae/Dragon Stompy are very popular around here.

This deck has little to no trouble with normal counterspell decks. AT ALL.
But tell you what, artifacts can and will fuck it up.



Stifle, assuming they're holding onto it for your lethal Tendrils, shouldn't be a problem if you Ad Nauseam; you will typically flip one/multiple Chant/Duress during your 15-20 card binge. Once you stop Ad Nauseam, you basically can vomit your hand (I'm assuming lots of mana), play Chant/Duress, or tutor & draw for a protection spell.

Yes. I love how Stifle is not actually that great vs this deck.

Bryant Cook
01-28-2009, 01:35 PM
I never had problem with burn. Even if you don't storm for the win, dealing only 10-14 dmg, it's like a 3+ timewalks for you. You can often combo when they have a single land in play. They're also playing Sorcery burn, so sometimes they're also tapped out. Is the burn matchup that crucial? I don't get it, because we're the faster combo deck of the two, aren't we?Neither have I, but he was recommending changing the deck for Burn. Using cantrips or chain is the best way to get a win when they've already burned you a bit. Building up to 8 cards, cantrip and win.

To people playing Echoing Truth. Sometimes you only get one mana off of Ad Nauseum and need 2 to win, this is where Chain of Vapor shines.

Corwin
01-28-2009, 06:29 PM
Hi folks, I've seen many people removed the maindeck Empty the Warrens, are you absolutely sure there is no more a free slot for it maindeck? I know its mana cost isn't very sinergic with Ad Nauseam, but what if your opponent i.e. casts Meddling Mage or Runed Halo naming Tendrils? If you have a ETW maindeck, you can just take it using Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish (or drawing him!), else you absolutely need burning wish. What I mean is that in some cases it is really useful to have a B plan maindeck, what do you think about it?

emidln
01-28-2009, 06:38 PM
Hi folks, I've seen many people removed the maindeck Empty the Warrens, are you absolutely sure there is no more a free slot for it maindeck? I know its mana cost isn't very sinergic with Ad Nauseam, but what if your opponent i.e. casts Meddling Mage or Runed Halo naming Tendrils? If you have a ETW maindeck, you can just take it using Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish (or drawing him!), else you absolutely need burning wish. What I mean is that in some cases it is really useful to have a B plan maindeck, what do you think about it?

You can still Infernal Tutor into Burning Wish into ETW as has been discussed several times before. This is a complete non-issue.

Corwin
01-28-2009, 07:29 PM
I see, but you still need 2 more mana that sometimes you don't have, I know it has already been discussed, but Mystical Tutor too was :wink:

Zach Tartell
01-28-2009, 07:33 PM
You can still Infernal Tutor into Burning Wish into ETW as has been discussed several times before. This is a complete non-issue.

Or simply do the manly thing and storm up 18 cards, play Burning Wish, and then Grapeshot his pants off.

GreenOne
01-29-2009, 04:39 AM
Hi folks, I've seen many people removed the maindeck Empty the Warrens, are you absolutely sure there is no more a free slot for it maindeck? I know its mana cost isn't very sinergic with Ad Nauseam, but what if your opponent i.e. casts Meddling Mage or Runed Halo naming Tendrils? If you have a ETW maindeck, you can just take it using Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish (or drawing him!), else you absolutely need burning wish. What I mean is that in some cases it is really useful to have a B plan maindeck, what do you think about it?
As other said, there are several paths you can follow:

- Reach 6 storm, play Burning Wish -> Grapeshot, Grapeshot (2 storm copies on Mage, 6 on the opponent), play Tendrils on the opponent for 18. Total cost: 1 Card (B.Wish)+1R+1R. Or you can simply wish for grapeshot the turn before going of, splitting the cost in 2 turns.
- Infernal ->Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens
- Burning Wish -> Grapeshot with 18-20 storm.
- Mystical/cantrips ->Chain of Vapor
- Pyroblast (for Meddling Mage) post side.

Corwin
01-29-2009, 09:16 AM
Ok then, I'm going to test this change.
Another question, how do you deal against control/control aggro decks? I usually play with a friend that has a Merfolk, and without sideboarding it looks almost impossible to beat him. I guess the right SBing would be +3 pyroblast and +2 vexing shushers, what kind of matchup do you think this deck has against, let's say T hold and Merfolk post side?

Joe_C
01-29-2009, 12:21 PM
Ive been so underwhelmed with Shusher. I know Bryant swears by it, but I have not had them work out for me yet

GreenOne
01-29-2009, 01:45 PM
Ive been so underwhelmed with Shusher. I know Bryant swears by it, but I have not had them work out for me yet
Well, just take them out for whatever works for you. If they're working for Bryant he's right in running them, but this doesn't mean you have to run them too. You have lots of valuable options in their place:
- More Blasts
- More Duresses
- More Xantid Swarms
- Echoing Truth, Wipe Away or Krosan Grip

Bryant Cook
01-29-2009, 01:50 PM
I don't even like my sideboard at the moment. Here it is...
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Wipeaway
SB:2 Pyroblast
SB:2 Vexing Shusher
SB:2 Xantid Swarm
SB:3 Shattering Spree

I want a Duress in there as a Wish Target and no idea where to put it. I may cut Shusher or Swarm for a Duress and a 3rd blast. I could go down to 2 Shattering spree, one as a Wish target and the other as a mystical target? I only ever board in 2. The probability of drawing 1 of 2 isn't much higher.

Joe_C
01-29-2009, 02:06 PM
Bryant,

Have you tried echoing ruin as a wish target? It would be beneficial against stax type decks, but anything with counters shattering spree is better.

My board at the moment:

4 Pyroblast
2 Duress
3 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Wipeaway

I think duress and blast+ chants are enough to combat blue, swarm just hasnt done it for me, counterbalance is our biggest concern and more blasts and duress our are cheapest answers to that

GreenOne
01-29-2009, 03:54 PM
I don't even like my sideboard at the moment. Here it is...
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Wipeaway
SB:2 Pyroblast
SB:2 Vexing Shusher
SB:2 Xantid Swarm
SB:3 Shattering Spree

I want a Duress in there as a Wish Target and no idea where to put it. I may cut Shusher or Swarm for a Duress and a 3rd blast.
Let's take a look at how we can approach the other decks.
Here's how I divide them, from the easiest to the worst matchup:
1) Byes: something we simply have to goldfish, like Aggro decks
2) Hand/Land disruption: Something with some amount of discard, like the Rock, Aggro Loam, Eva Green, etc.
3) Permanent-based disruption: Stax, Dragon Stompy
4) Counter decks, packing the standard FoW+Daze, and maybe Stifle or Spell Snare: Tempo Thresh, Landstill
5) Counter + Counterbalance decks: Dreadstill, ITF

Aside from the obvious WishBoard (Tendrils, ETW, Returns, Grapeshot, IGG, Shattering Spree) we have 9 slots to work with. Our possible SB cards are designed to work better against one type of hate than against another.
Here's our SB choices:
a) Cards that work well against counter suites. In order: Orim's Chant, Xantid Swarm, Shusher, Duress, Pyroblast
b) Cards that work well against land/hand Disruption. In order: Duress, Orim's Chant.
c) Cards that work well against artifact based hate. In order: Spree, Wipe Away, Duress, Chain of vapor.
d) Cards that work well against other permanent based hate. In order: Chain of Vapor, Wipe Away, Duress, Pyroblast.

A lot of our SB slots are actually devoted to a) : 2 Pyroblast, 2 Shusher, 2 Swarm = 6 out of 9 slots.

An important thing to notice is that our deck functions worse and worse, the more cards we're siding in, as SB cards don't help with the combo. Instead of drawing mana, cantrips, bombs, we draw in protection spells post SB, and our Ad Nauseams and Diminishing Returns are significantly worse.

So we are unlikely to side a huge amount of cards in any given matchup, otherwise our combo would be too compromised.

That said, we have to work on a SB plan for any given matchup:

Against 1) decks:
They're usually siding in discard or permanent based hate, so duress and bounce are the best cards here. We don't want to dilute the deck cause their clock is high even post SB, but we don't want to lose to a single piece of hate.

This is how I would ideally side: +2 Duress, +0/2 Spree, -2/4 Chant

Against 2) decks:
They're usually siding discard/extirpate, or permanent based hate, so duress and bounce are the best cards here. If they side Chalice, then Shattering Spree can complement the bounce.

This is how I would ideally side: +2 Duress, +0/2 Spree, -2/4 Chant

Against 3) decks:
They're usually siding more artifact permanent based hate, so duress and spree are the best cards here.

This is how I would ideally side: +2 Duress, +2 Shattering Spree, +1 Wipe Away -4 Chant -1 Something

Against 4) decks:
Those decks are siding just a few cards, usually BEBs and permanent based hate (magi or halo). The speed of those deck is not blazingly fast.

This is how I would ideally side if they bring in only more counterspells:
-2 Cabal Ritual, -1 Infernal, -1 Chain of vapor +4 Swarm
This is how I would ideally side if they bring in meddling magi:
-2 Cabal Ritual, -1 Infernal, -1 Chain of vapor -2 Duress +3 Swarm, +3 Pyroblast
This is how I would ideally side if they bring in nonblue,noncreature hate:
-2 Cabal Ritual, -1 Infernal, -1 Chain of vapor +4 Swarm

Against 5) decks:
They usually don't side nothing, or maybe a little number of permanent based hate or BEBs.

This is how I would ideally side against them:
-2 Cabal Ritual, -2 Infernal, -1 Chain of vapor, -2 something else, +2 Shusher, +2 Duress, +2/3 Pyroblast, +0/1 Wipe Away.

Here's the total card we'd ideally want in the sb:
2 Duress, 2 Spree, 1 Wipe Away, 4 Swarm, 3 Pyroblast, 2 Shusher.

We don't want to have too many or too little SB spaces devoted to a single matchup. So we start filling our 9 slots with:
2 Duress, 2 Spree: It's some minimal sb choices just to cover matchups 1), 2) and 3). Duress can even get sided in against 5), and Duress #1 is also a solid wish target.
4-5 Between Pyroblast and Swarm: They're the better cards working against 4) and half the plan of 5). Pyroblasts are better against CB and Magi, Swarm are better against Counters.
0-1 Wipe Away or Shusher: something that works against CB, if you don't feel comfortable with Pyroblasts.



Heres the final SB plan and total disruption package post SB:
2 Duress, 2 Shattering Spree, 3 Swarm, 2 Pyroblast

1) 4 Duress, 2 Spree/Chant
2) 4 Duress, 2 Spree/Chant
3) 4 Duress, 2 Spree
4) 4 Chant, 3 Swarm, 3 Duress, 0/2 Pyroblast
5) 4 Chant, 2/3 Swarm, 3/4 Duress, 2 Pyroblast

To end it, we have a SB that is covering all the matchups, siding a moderate amount of cards against already good matchups, and with the possibility of heavy siding against our worst matchups: 4) and 5).
After all, the deck never wants more than 12 protection spells, cause it still want to combo out quite fast.

GreenOne
01-29-2009, 04:04 PM
Bryant,

Have you tried echoing ruin as a wish target? It would be beneficial against stax type decks, but anything with counters shattering spree is better.

My board at the moment:

4 Pyroblast
2 Duress
3 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Wipeaway

I think duress and blast+ chants are enough to combat blue, swarm just hasnt done it for me, counterbalance is our biggest concern and more blasts and duress our are cheapest answers to that
Looks like your SB strategy follows my reasoning, so maybe I did not just say shit :wink:

Echoing Ruin is just worse than Spree, since the artifacts we want to deastroy are, usually, Chalice and Trinisphere.

Shattering Spree works against chalice @1 (the replicated copies are not countered). Against Trinisphere you can replicate till you reach 3 casting cost, so you basically break up to 3 artifacts spending RRR in the process even if they have different names.
Seems like the only case Echoing Ruin is better is when there's a Chalice@0 and a Chalice@1 in play. This is the only case that sees Ruin cost 2 mana and Spree costing 3.

Sry for double post.

Bryant Cook
01-29-2009, 06:28 PM
I'm back at college, which means I have no testing until the GP. Unless it's on mws... this is what I'm looking at right now.

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Wipeaway
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:1 Duress
SB:2 Xantid Swarm / Shusher (I'm leaning more towards Xantid, I think)
SB:3 Shattering Spree

I'll have to find someone to be my mws bitch when I'm free tomorrow.

Raindown
01-29-2009, 06:48 PM
When you guys encounter control (counterspells and the like) do you just try and snake out one counterspell and then attempt to win or try to setup a defense to counters like shusher? I mean do you switch into a longer game strategy or keep up the attempted quick win?

kensook
01-29-2009, 06:57 PM
Would you keep one duress in the SB as a wish target or would you rather want all of them boarded in?

GreenOne
01-29-2009, 07:20 PM
When you guys encounter control (counterspells and the like) do you just try and snake out one counterspell and then attempt to win or try to setup a defense to counters like shusher? I mean do you switch into a longer game strategy or keep up the attempted quick win?

I usually look at my hand and then decide. If I got some protection that slows down my game by 1 turn I usually play it (Swarm or Duress). If I need only 1 more turn/mana to have a protected win (Pyroblast or chant) then I wait.
I always combo unprotected turn 1 on the play if I can. I combo turn 2 unprotected if I have to wait 2 or more turns to build a protection wall and the opponent posed some threat.
I tend to go for it more if I know the opponent can land a counterbalance.

Those are the general rules I follow, but obviously, I evaluate case by case.


Would you keep one duress in the SB as a wish target or would you rather want all of them boarded in?
I guess it depends on the matchup. You don't need a wishable duress against discard and fast decks (aggro, tempo decks). You may want it against control decks.

Pulp_Fiction
01-30-2009, 02:17 AM
One card I have been playing around with in the SB is Pact of Negation. Originally I just brushed the card off as garbage, but lately someone in my meta is running it in ANT and its pretty fucking sick. However, I am not sure how much I like it. This is the SB I run and I am very satisfied:

1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Grapeshot
3x Pyroblast
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Shattering Spree

I LOVE Slaughter Pact. Gaddock Teeg and True Believer randomly show up in my meta in mass. It is great having that in the board. Towards a more random meta, the only change I would do to the SB is -2 Slaughter Pact and play something like +2 Krosan Grip or Wipe Away. Pact of Negation has its uses, but the card is pointless against literally everything but opposing Chants and blue control that doesn't have Counterbalance so that should be out. 2x Wipe Away seems like the right call for a big tournament like the GP. Since the deck not runs Mystical Tutors you could probably get away with 1x Wipe Away and 1x Rebuild/Recall if you wanted too. Xantid Swarm also seems like the right call since most blue control decks are running Blasts to deal with Shusher, I also have had him Pithing Needled a few times and that was not pleasant. With Swarm they have to leave in their Swords to Plowshares (if playing) to deal with it, thus giving them more dead draws later on.

b4r0n
01-30-2009, 02:46 AM
Wouldn't Krosan Grip be a better Mystical target than Wipe Away? Other than Teeg and Mage, all the things you'd want to bounce with Wipe Away are artifacts or enchantments. It seems better to be able to remove hate permanently rather than having to bounce it immediately prior to going off. Plus, you can still deal with Teeg and Mage via Mystical for Burning Wish for Grapeshot.

I really like the idea of 2 Duress in the board. I'm thinking that it might be worth going down to 2 Pyroblasts to make room for the second Duress. Duress and Pyroblast serve a similar purpose (pre-empting CB, dealing with countermagic), but Duress can also deal with other hate (Chant, discard). Plus, it gives you valuable information about whether you can go off or not.

Also, I'm still torn between Xantid and Shusher. I was leaning towards Xantid for a while, but now I'm starting to favor Shusher. Xantid is much better before Counterbalance, but Duress/Pyroblast already fill a similar role. Shusher lets you win after a Counterbalance has resolved, despite being a bit mana-intensive.

kensook
01-30-2009, 03:26 AM
The reason we play Wipe Away over Krosan Grip is because Wipe Away can get out of your hand in situations where you need the hellbent for IT.

GreenOne
01-30-2009, 05:17 AM
The reason we play Wipe Away over Krosan Grip is because Wipe Away can get out of your hand in situations where you need the hellbent for IT.
Really?
Wipe away is a 1of, so drawing it when not tutoring it does not come that often, to be more precise, 15% chances of drawing it by turn 3.
Of this 15% there will be times where you need it, since you sided it in.
Of the times you don't need it, you might not have an Infernal Tutor, some copies got sided out in some matchups.
Of the times you have both, you might have LED to go hellbent.
If you don't you might have a Brainstorm to get rid of it, or you might just discard it when you have 8 cards in hand.

It's a situation that doesn't seem to happen that often.

Dark_Cynic87
01-30-2009, 10:48 AM
Wipe Away also hits all bears, whereas K. Grip only hits Cannonist.

Joe_C
01-30-2009, 11:34 AM
Wipe Away also hits all bears, whereas K. Grip only hits Cannonist.

also if in your hand imprints on mox for :u:

we would never use green, so its absolutely dead in your opening hand, where wipe away would not be.

GreenOne
01-30-2009, 11:52 AM
Wipe Away also hits all bears, whereas K. Grip only hits Cannonist.
Yeah, this is the real reason.
But, anyway, I'm usually mysticaling for Pyroblast if the opponent played a Mage, and if the opponent played a Gaddock he can't play FoW, so why not tutoring for Chain of Vapor?
There are no other played bears afaik (True Believer, really?), so Krosan Grip could be a wise choice.

Bryant Cook
01-30-2009, 12:01 PM
Yeah, this is the real reason.
But, anyway, I'm usually mysticaling for Pyroblast if the opponent played a Mage, and if the opponent played a Gaddock he can't play FoW, so why not tutoring for Chain of Vapor?
There are no other played bears afaik (True Believer, really?), so Krosan Grip could be a wise choice.

I think the pros towards Wipeway are much greater than Grip. Being able to bounce Gaddeck Teeg matters, trust me. I'm not aware of your metagame; but in the northeast of the US, people play Teeg. Wipeaway also bounces Chant mana in the storm/survival match-ups.

GreenOne
01-30-2009, 12:26 PM
I think the pros towards Wipeway are much greater than Grip. Being able to bounce Gaddeck Teeg matters, trust me. I'm not aware of your metagame; but in the northeast of the US, people play Teeg.
Yeah, Teeg gets played here too, but mainly by Rock/Zoo/Survival and everything without counters, so I just rely on chain of vapor. No need to side Wipe Away in.

Wipeaway also bounces Chant mana in the storm/survival match-ups.
Are you seriously siding in Wipe Away against combo?
And vs survival, If they don't play Chalice too, Chain of Vapor does the job nicely.

Dark_Cynic87
01-30-2009, 12:34 PM
It's a meta call. I run Wipe Away in my list (FDDT, not TES, but the comparison remains the same) because of my meta (Dragon Stompy, Solidarity, TES). K. Grip is useless against Dragon Stompy as Moon Effects turn off my duals. I run 3x Petal, you guys run Moxen and a set of petals, so maybe it's easier for you to still get green. For me, it's easier to get double blue than it is to get a green mana under Blood Moon effects.

Bryant Cook
01-30-2009, 12:34 PM
Yeah, Teeg gets played here too, but mainly by Rock/Zoo/Survival and everything without counters, so I just rely on chain of vapor. No need to side Wipe Away in.

Are you seriously siding in Wipe Away against combo?
And vs survival, If they don't play Chalice too, Chain of Vapor does the job nicely.

I bring in Wipeaway vs Teeg regardless of if they're playing blue or not. 2 > 1 when it comes to answering an awful card for us. I do board in Wipeaway if I'm down in games. But maybe this will change if I decide to play Swarm. How do you answer the job nicely with Chain? It can't target lands.

GreenOne
01-30-2009, 01:02 PM
I bring in Wipeaway vs Teeg regardless of if they're playing blue or not. 2 > 1 when it comes to answering an awful card for us. I do board in Wipeaway if I'm down in games. But maybe this will change if I decide to play Swarm. How do you answer the job nicely with Chain? It can't target lands.
I meant Teeg. Doesn't come up often to bounce the opponent's only untapped land, when you have 1UU open and your random 1of in hand, and the opponent had a chant in hand, and you didn't discard it with your duresses.
To be fair, it doesn't come up often that a deck is siding both Teegs and Chants. If he's siding only chants, I'm bringing in duresses and maybe Swarms, but not Wipe Away for sure. It's not like Wipe Away is a good card against stifle/chant.

b4r0n
01-30-2009, 01:10 PM
The arguments for Wipe Away sound pretty weak to me. Maybe I just don't have as much experience with the deck, but bouncing lands with Wipe Away or needing to imprint it on a Mox for blue seem like really narrow reasons for running the card. Krosan Grip just seems to do a better job of answering relevant hate cards like Counterbalance, Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Chalice, or Canonist. And while Wipe Away does seem pretty good against the other hate bears, I think that you might as well Mystical for Burning Wish into Grapeshot for Teeg, or Mystical for Pyroblast against Meddling Mage.

Also, the more I think about it, the more Duress #4 seems better than Pyroblast #3. Thoughts?

GreenOne
01-30-2009, 01:22 PM
Also, the more I think about it, the more Duress #4 seems better than Pyroblast #3. Thoughts?
QFT. I'm not going to play less then 4 total Duresses anytime soon.

Bryant Cook
01-30-2009, 02:27 PM
Also, the more I think about it, the more Duress #4 seems better than Pyroblast #3. Thoughts?

Right now I'm testing 4 Duress, 4 Blast, 4 Chant as my protection suite.

Arsenal
01-30-2009, 02:30 PM
Right now I'm testing 4 Duress, 4 Blast, 4 Chant as my protection suite.

Maindeck?

Bryant Cook
01-30-2009, 02:33 PM
Maindeck?

Aha, no. 4 Chant, 2 Duress maindeck. 4 Blast 2 Duress sideboard.

Pulp_Fiction
01-30-2009, 04:35 PM
I know I will be hated for saying this but I have not been a fan of Duress in combo decks that aren't forced to run it since the Iggy Pop days. I really dislike IGG + Duress dissynergy especially if I am forced to cast IGG when the deck isn't cooperating and I'm getting my ass kicked by Goyf(s) and can't go for Ad Nauseam and I really would not like to cast Diminishing Returns against a deck with Force of Will. Here is my problem with Duress, it isn't a reactive defense spell, its just more of a inquisitive/disruption spell.

Maybe it is just my bad luck, but everytime I cast Duress I always see multiple targets that I want to take and even after the Duress resolves and I discard something, I usually can't combo out since they have more pieces of hate. I like Pyroblast since it serves the dual role of stopping Counterbalance and forcing the opponent to have more counters. We all agree on how good Chant is so I don't have to argue that. Over Duress I would love to fit Abeyance into the deck, but I am afraid that would cause a lot of inconsistencies due to its casting cost. Lately I really like Pact of Negation but since it is really only good against counters and SB slots are tight as it is I don't think it deserves a spot. But I am really wondering about this. Has anyone besides me tested out Pact of Negation? What were your experiences with the card? Since this deck can be all about pure speed when it needs to be, turn 1-2 AdN with PoN backup sounds pretty hot. Especially in multiples, TES is somewhat unaffected by Daze (depends on how you set up and what turn it is) and the only other counter you care about if Force of Will, and with PoN it forces them to have double Force of Will or lose which is a very unlikely situation, especially in the earlier turns. From my experience against Thresh-style decks, Duress usually reveals something along the lines of FoW, Stifle, Spell Snare, and other random cards that may or may not pertain to the game.

This is not an argument against Duress in any way, I am just trying to see what other potential protection spells there are out there that people have tested out. Just throwing some newer ideas into the mix.

GreenOne
01-30-2009, 05:49 PM
I know I will be hated for saying this but I have not been a fan of Duress in combo decks that aren't forced to run it since the Iggy Pop days. I really dislike IGG + Duress dissynergy especially if I am forced to cast IGG when the deck isn't cooperating and I'm getting my ass kicked by Goyf(s) and can't go for Ad Nauseam and I really would not like to cast Diminishing Returns against a deck with Force of Will. Here is my problem with Duress, it isn't a reactive defense spell, its just more of a inquisitive/disruption spell.

Maybe it is just my bad luck, but everytime I cast Duress I always see multiple targets that I want to take and even after the Duress resolves and I discard something, I usually can't combo out since they have more pieces of hate. I like Pyroblast since it serves the dual role of stopping Counterbalance and forcing the opponent to have more counters. We all agree on how good Chant is so I don't have to argue that. Over Duress I would love to fit Abeyance into the deck, but I am afraid that would cause a lot of inconsistencies due to its casting cost. Lately I really like Pact of Negation but since it is really only good against counters and SB slots are tight as it is I don't think it deserves a spot. But I am really wondering about this. Has anyone besides me tested out Pact of Negation? What were your experiences with the card? Since this deck can be all about pure speed when it needs to be, turn 1-2 AdN with PoN backup sounds pretty hot. Especially in multiples, TES is somewhat unaffected by Daze (depends on how you set up and what turn it is) and the only other counter you care about if Force of Will, and with PoN it forces them to have double Force of Will or lose which is a very unlikely situation.

This is not an argument against Duress in any way, I am just trying to see what other potential protection spells there are out there that people have tested out. Just throwing some newer ideas into the mix.
Duress has some great advantages that it's difficult to find in other disruption pieces:
- It's good against permanents, and still quite good against counters
- can take discard from the opponent
- You can cast it the turn you go off or not, at your pleasure
- It lets you know what are you going to face in the next turns
- It' on color

Duress is meant as a card against permanents and discard, and does a good job against anything but bears. The fact that it can't take multiple instances of counters is not that remarkable. Even chant can only take 1 Fow away from opponent's deck.
The dissynergy with IGG does occour only in case of counters, chant, and to a lesser extent, Extirpate. And a countered chant suffers the same dissynergy.

Duress is actually the most versatile and overall good protection spell that the deck has after chant.

Pact seems a fine card. I Pyroblast/Shusher's mana requirements in the turn i go off, and Pact overcomes that.
Pyroblast works against MM and CB too, so I don't know if the R is worth the trade. Pact also still suffer the hellbent dissynergy too.
I never tested Pact, just because I don't own any.
Tell us how your testing goes, it might be surprising.

Jaiminho
01-30-2009, 10:03 PM
I know I will be hated for saying this but I have not been a fan of Duress in combo decks that aren't forced to run it since the Iggy Pop days. I really dislike IGG + Duress dissynergy especially if I am forced to cast IGG when the deck isn't cooperating and I'm getting my ass kicked by Goyf(s) and can't go for Ad Nauseam and I really would not like to cast Diminishing Returns against a deck with Force of Will. Here is my problem with Duress, it isn't a reactive defense spell, its just more of a inquisitive/disruption spell.

There's no dissynergy with IGG at all. The card is going to the graveyard anyway, except that, instead of being possibly used twice, it's limited to being used once only. Walking into Extirpate when you don't know your opponent has it is much worse than knowing your opponent has it so you don't walk into it.

Shizzow
02-02-2009, 03:27 AM
Hi folks,

currently testing Bryants list with an added Duress main. This is how it looks at the moment:

// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
2 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard

// Spells
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [US] Duress
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree

What is the trick behind Diminishing Returns? It always feels kind of random to me:
a) I dislike, casting it against U (if I have no Chant-protection)
b) What if your drawn 7 cards lack any win-option (which happened to me already)?

Could Deminishing Returns be cutted for a wishable Ad Nauseam? I have had some situations where a AdN in my board would have been very good.

Comments appreciated,
Shizzow

Phoenix Ignition
02-02-2009, 03:43 AM
Could Deminishing Returns be cutted for a wishable Ad Nauseam? I have had some situations where a AdN in my board would have been very good.

I guess if you want to play with Cunning Wish you could. There just really aren't that many options in sorcery form though.

Limz
02-02-2009, 03:57 AM
I guess if you want to play with Cunning Wish you could. There just really aren't that many options in sorcery form though.

There is always Mystical Tutor for AdN, and it just costs a blue mana. Adding Cunning Wish is just like putting Simian Spirit Guide back in the Deck. A 3CC card hurts a lot when flipped out from Adn. What's even worse, it can't be used to wish for a win condition. Brainfreeze anyone!?


What is the trick behind Diminishing Returns? It always feels kind of random to me:
a) I dislike, casting it against U (if I have no Chant-protection)
b) What if your drawn 7 cards lack any win-option (which happened to me already)?

Wishing for Returns is best when your opponents has answer to your Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish was your only way out. It is used to reset crappy, stripped, mulled hands into playable ones. It could also be used as a storm engine, allowing you to have a new set of seven cards to play around with. I believe GreenOne has posted the probability of winning on using Returns based on the number of mana floating in the previous pages

Phoenix Ignition
02-02-2009, 04:32 AM
There is always Mystical Tutor for AdN, and it just costs a blue mana. Adding Cunning Wish is just like putting Simian Spirit Guide back in the Deck. A 3CC card hurts a lot when flipped out from Adn. What's even worse, it can't be used to wish for a win condition. Brainfreeze anyone!?


I thought the latent sarcasm pointing out the fact that he wants to use AdN as a sideboard card to wish for would have been detected. *shrugs*

Limz
02-02-2009, 05:02 AM
I thought the latent sarcasm pointing out the fact that he wants to use AdN as a sideboard card to wish for would have been detected. *shrugs*

I guess I didn't see thru that one. My bad. :wink:

Shizzow
02-02-2009, 05:11 AM
Forget about AdN in the SB :rolleyes: - man it was way to early for me, what a blackout...

Pulp_Fiction
02-02-2009, 01:25 PM
Diminishing Returns is solid. It can backfire though, leaving you with: Chant, Chant, Brainstorm, Rite of Flame, Chrome Mox, land, land. It is important that when you are setting up for D.Returns that, if you have the option, leave blue and black mana floating. This has been my preference anyway, with a choice between red and blue mana I usually prefer to have blue floating, but black mana is the #1 priority. D.Returns should also be used only when it has to be.

@jaiminho: I agree with that, but my point is, when I can't find the additional protection spell and am forced to combo off, Duress on Force of Will then going into the IGG loop is not an option since they just bring back FoW and counter IT.

Jaiminho
02-02-2009, 03:21 PM
@jaiminho: I agree with that, but my point is, when I can't find the additional protection spell and am forced to combo off, Duress on Force of Will then going into the IGG loop is not an option since they just bring back FoW and counter IT.

Still, that's IGG's problem, not Duress'. It's irrelevant whether the card, be it Extirpate, Cremate, Force of Will, Daze, Swords to Plowshares or anything else, is in their hand or graveyard, as it will end up doing what it does anyway. But if you Duress it away, it will do that only once and after recurring, which may not even be relevant at all (as in Extirpate).

GreenOne
02-02-2009, 03:24 PM
when I can't find the additional protection spell and am forced to combo off, Duress on Force of Will then going into the IGG loop is not an option since they just bring back FoW and counter IT.
True, every piece of disruption has its pros and cons.
Sometimes you can play around it, though.
- Instead of floating 1B after IGG, float 2BB and bring back IT, LED, Duress. It costs only 1B more and works unless the opponent has 2+ counters/stifles between hand and grave.
- Go for AN and hope to get lucky if you're low on life.
- IT->Burning Wish->Diminishing Returns and hope to get lucky again.

BreathWeapon
02-04-2009, 01:06 PM
There is always Mystical Tutor for AdN, and it just costs a blue mana. Adding Cunning Wish is just like putting Simian Spirit Guide back in the Deck. A 3CC card hurts a lot when flipped out from Adn. What's even worse, it can't be used to wish for a win condition. Brainfreeze anyone!?


Not that I'd use Cunning Wish, but using Cunning Wish to search for Ad Nauseam and then using Cunning Wish to search for Brain Freeze is totally viable, it's no different than Burning Wish for Grape Shot.

@Pulp_Fuction

Duress > Orim's Chant, seriously, I've lost more games to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void than I've lost to Stifle and Spellsnare. People need to let go of 4xOrim's Chant and XxDuress and realize that 4xDuress and XxOrim's Chant is just so much better with Mystical Tutor.

Jaiminho
02-04-2009, 02:11 PM
Not that I'd use Cunning Wish, but using Cunning Wish to search for Ad Nauseam and then using Cunning Wish to search for Brain Freeze is totally viable, it's no different than Burning Wish for Grape Shot.

Setup color versus acceleration color; 3cc versus 2cc; strictly win-con that might scoop to grave-to-lib recursion versus bear killer. It's that different.

BreathWeapon
02-04-2009, 05:02 PM
Setup color versus acceleration color; 3cc versus 2cc; strictly win-con that might scoop to grave-to-lib recursion versus bear killer. It's that different.

No shit, I didn't realize the metagame was Gaea's Blessing.dec., my point was the Storm and CC were plausible and it wasn't as radical as the OP made it out to be.

Jaiminho
02-04-2009, 05:10 PM
No shit, I didn't realize the metagame was Gaea's Blessing.dec., my point was the Storm and CC were plausible and it wasn't as radical as the OP made it out to be.

Jötun Grunt and Academy Ruins.

GreenOne
02-05-2009, 06:07 AM
Jötun Grunt and Academy Ruins.
There's also Volrath's Stronghold.
2 Wish cards in the same deck are kinda sucky: we do want some real SB cards, do we?

BreathWeapon
02-05-2009, 06:20 PM
Ok, I just had a Eureka!

Cutting Simian Spirit Guide and replacing it with Cabal Ritual was a mistake, because cutting Simian Spirit Guide and replacing it with Tinder Wall is superior. Tinder Wall is 1cc, which is 2 less damage than Simian Spirit Guide and 1 less damage than Cabal Ritual, and Tinder Wall's "body" is relevant now that Life=Cards with Ad Nauseam. In addition, "Tinder Wall, go" is a strong, strong play because unlike Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual, Tinder Wall produces +2 mana on the second turn and unlike Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall can produce that mana to cast Ad Nauseam during your draw phase (Tinder Wall, Lion's Eye Diamond go = 5 mana). The original "design flaw" of Tinder Wall was that "G mana" wasn't reliable off Diminishing Returns, but now that Ad Nauseam has replaced Diminishing Returns and the deck can draw as many cards as it "needs," producing G mana off of a Land, Lotus Petal or even a Chrome Mox isn't problematic.

In summary, Tinder Wall is "the nuts," because it produces G for RR or RR on the following turn, which makes it the only other ritual that helps resolve Ad Nauseam at instant speed, and it both minimize the amount of damage when revealed by Ad Nauseam and reduces the amount of damage when blocking. The off color aside, it's about as ideal as rituals get in TES.

Where Tinder Wall shines,

Ad Nauseam
Brainstorm
Duress
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
City of Brass
Gemstone Mine

City of Brass, Brainstorm revealing Red Elemental Blast, Chrome Mox and Ponder. Take Red Elemental Blast and Ponder, put back Chrome and Ad Nauseam.

Draw Chrome Mox, Gemstone Mine, Duress (Opponent Force of Wills Duress i.e. holds Counterbalance), Tinder Wall, Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox imprinting Ponder.

Turn 3 win during your upkeep with Red Elemental Blast countering Counterbalance.

GreenOne
02-06-2009, 04:55 AM
Ok, I just had a Eureka!
TINDER WALL!

This may actually be a nice idea. However, Tinderwall has cons too:
- Doesn't produce Black mana. The deck became more Black dependant with AN, and making double black is sometimes hard.
- Might get killed in the opponent's turn preside, making their creature removal somewhat relevant G1.
- It's a worse lategame than Cabal Ritual (not that it matters much)
- can be cast only with lands and petals (doesn't matter much either).

It probably deserves testing though. Sure it can help against white weenies and tribal decks (Merfolks, Elves, Goblin, Sliver), but i guess most of those are already quite good matchups.
The only other thing that the wall can survive are GoyfSligh/Boros creatures, but I guess I don't want to lose an acceleration piece to a chain lightning usually.

BreathWeapon
02-06-2009, 06:30 AM
This may actually be a nice idea. However, Tinderwall has cons too:
- Doesn't produce Black mana. The deck became more Black dependant with AN, and making double black is sometimes hard.
- Might get killed in the opponent's turn preside, making their creature removal somewhat relevant G1.
- It's a worse lategame than Cabal Ritual (not that it matters much)
- can be cast only with lands and petals (doesn't matter much either).

It probably deserves testing though. Sure it can help against white weenies and tribal decks (Merfolks, Elves, Goblin, Sliver), but i guess most of those are already quite good matchups.
The only other thing that the wall can survive are GoyfSligh/Boros creatures, but I guess I don't want to lose an acceleration piece to a chain lightning usually.

Tinder Wall is fucking insane, not only in theory but in practice. "Tinder Wall, go" both untaps your land and produces RR, so Tinder Wall does produce B if you think about it. Swords to Plowshares isn't a problem, because you have the option of passing or sacrificing, which makes Tinder Wall such a flexible accelerant. If Tinder Wall isn't as good as Cabal Ritual in the late game, then Tinder Wall is better than Cabal Ritual in the early game, and that's what matters. I agree, G sucks, but it's manageable and it's easier when Vexing Shusher and/or Xantid Swarm are SBed in.

Seriously, TINDER WALL!

1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Forbidden Orchard

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach
1 Thought Seize
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyro Blast

jazzykat
02-06-2009, 10:21 AM
I dig this deck a lot now. However, I'm not really sure why I'd play this over AdNT or vice versa. It looks like you may have leap frogged AdNT in speed.

nodahero
02-06-2009, 10:38 AM
Not to sound like a complete n00b but can somebody please explain situations in which casting Diminishing Returns would be appropriate. I can't help but look at the card and fret fizziling while also possibly giving my opponent the nuts (whether that means the ability to stop me or to kill me on their turn if they live). To be honest part of my lack of faith is due to an inexperience with any non-FT combo build in legacy. In advance, thanks.

BreathWeapon
02-06-2009, 11:44 AM
I dig this deck a lot now. However, I'm not really sure why I'd play this over AdNT or vice versa. It looks like you may have leap frogged AdNT in speed. However, I don't understand the use of duress over Orim's Chant. Chant makes the opponents hand irrelevant or gets rid of a counter too....

Because Orim's Chant isn't that good, Orim's Chant requires W mana on the combo turn and turns off Stifle and Spellsnare, but Stifle and Spellsnare can't stop Ad Nauseam regardless. Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void stop this deck cold, so Duress is the best disruption because it prevents the worst answers from hitting the board. Duress imprints for Black, and you can choose to cast Duress either before or during the combo turn, so it's more efficient than Orim's Chant. Playing Orim's Chant only makes sense when you're playing Mystical Tutor and Ill Gotten Gains, but I'm not playing either card, so Duress is the superior choice.

My philosophy to TES is simple, you use Duress, Burning Wish -> Thought Seize, Red Elemental and Pyro Blasts to stop Counterbalance from resolving at ALL costs.

You play Tinder TES instead of AdN because it's like one to two turns faster, and one to two turns matters when the best way to deal with Counterbalance is to win before it resolves. Plus, I think Tinder TES has the most efficient Tutors and Acceleration, and it gives you the ability to customize your disruption with Duress, Red Elemental and Pyro Blast, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Vexing Shusher and Xantid Swarm with the golden lands. Plus, tapping Forbidden Orchard to cast Tinder Wall is like the most insane synergy in a combo deck since Illusions and Donate ;p

Side notes: I firmly believe MD Ill Gotten Gains is just a wet blanket, you can always Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens for 1 more mana and drawing the card either in your starting hand or after your Ad Nauseam just blows. Grape Shot is terrible vs Ethersworn Canonist, I've lost games because I wished for Hull Breach to remove Chalice of the Void at one and then my opponent resolved Ethersworn Canonist and I couldn't Storm 2 for Grapeshot :( I really, really like the full set of Ad Nauseam and cantrips, because the cantrips turn Lion's Eye Diamond into a Black Lotus if you set up your top decks. Sure, Mystical Tutor does it too, but you have to specifically set out to set up Ad Nauseam in order to do it and it costs you a card. Revealing Ad Nauseam off of Ad Nauseam sucks, but cutting Ill Gotten Gains and Cabal Ritual has driven down the avg. cc and you're just hurting your top decking and "Oops, I win" power. The 11th land is debatable, cutting it for an Empty the Warrens is reasonable considering it protects the deck from discarding or RFGing the MD win conditions and it gives Infernal Tutor a 6cc out.

Jaynel
02-06-2009, 11:47 AM
Grape Shot is terrible vs Ethersworn Canonist

Playing out artifact mana then Grapeshot seems to do the job pretty well.

BreathWeapon
02-06-2009, 12:12 PM
Playing out artifact mana then Grapeshot seems to do the job pretty well.

Yeah, when you've got it, but sometimes you've already played your Chrome Mox to cast Burning Wish or you've already played your LED to set up Ad Nauseam during your draw phase.

It just randomly sucks, Grape Shot doesn't do enough for me to take the chance, and Pyroclasm's WoG effect actually saves my ass from time to time.

Dark_Cynic87
02-06-2009, 12:24 PM
Grapeshot can double as a win-con, though. I don't know how well TES hits 18-20 storm as I've never been in the position of having to grapeshot ftw when playing it, but with 12x 0-cc artifact spells and lots of other accel, not to mention IGG loop with wishes and with IT, you should be able to do it fairly easy. That's why Grapeshot is played over 'Clasm.

I like the Tinder Wall. Nice. Btw, you always need two pieces of accel. to combo off, and one obviously has to be able to produce black. I don't think it's a big deal to add 1x-4x more red sources. You still have 1-4 Moxen, 4x Petal, 4x LED and 4x Dark Rit and 10x 5c lands. The mana-color argument really doesn't seem relevant when so many of the other accel gives you either any color you need (read all artifact accel.) or the main color you need (Dark Rits). Seriously, the only downside I see is that creature removal is now relevant game one, which may lead to them actually leaving removal in depending on how stupid they are.

Blockers that turn into mini LEDs are nice. Especially the RR, which allows you to Burning wish off of G. This only solidifies my choice of SBing an Infernal Tutor as a Wish target.

Pce,

--DC

Joe_C
02-06-2009, 12:27 PM
[QUOTE=BreathWeapon;317116]Because Orim's Chant isn't that good, Orim's Chant requires W mana on the combo turn QUOTE]

This is true but playing chant on your opponents turn isnt always bad either. Losing chant makes your mirror terrible. I have saved myself by playing chant when my opening 7 is missing a piece or two, so I wouldnt get raped by duress or thoughtseize.

Dark_Cynic87
02-06-2009, 12:37 PM
This is true but playing chant on your opponents turn isnt always bad either. Losing chant makes your mirror terrible. I have saved myself by playing chant when my opening 7 is missing a piece or two, so I wouldnt get raped by duress or thoughtseize.

Who cares about the mirror? Counter their blue tutors and cantrips while raping their hand with Duress and combo off in the process. Also, myself and others in the FDDT thread have gone down to 1x Chant in the mainboard to Mystical into when needed.

I fear the CB matchup way more than the mirror or Force of Will/Daze/Spell Snare/Remand. I'd plan for that, and that's what makes Blasts and Duress better than Chant.

Pce,

--DC

BreathWeapon
02-06-2009, 05:47 PM
The problem tho' is when is using Grape Shot as a win condition relevant? If you can generate 20 storm, then you can generate the mana for Tendrils of Agony, and any one who names Tendrils of Agony with Meddling Mage is just incompetent.

Maybe I'm a little overboard on using Pyroclasm just for Ethersworn Canonist when I can use Hull Breach, but Pyroclasm picking off 2xEthersworn Canonist or a combination of "hate bears" is pretty damn good IMO.

Grape Shot is just for show, Pyroclasm actually addresses issues.

GreenOne
02-06-2009, 07:24 PM
any one who names Tendrils of Agony with Meddling Mage is just incompetent.
What should they name?
Chant? They can do it only if they got some other counterspells online
Ad Nauseam? We can IGG or Returns for the win
Burning Wish? We have a maindeck wincon to Mystical or IT.

Tendrils is one of the most solid choices probably.


Maybe I'm a little overboard on using Pyroclasm just for Ethersworn Canonist when I can use Hull Breach, but Pyroclasm picking off 2xEthersworn Canonist or a combination of "hate bears" is pretty damn good IMO.

Grape Shot is just for show, Pyroclasm actually addresses issues.
Every card has its ups and downs. If Pyroclasm meets a FoW/Counterspell/Spell Snare/ BEB then you're done. If Grapeshot meets a Stifle then you're done.

If I'm against 2xCanonist I'm going to wish for Spree. If I'm up against 2x bears and none is a Canonist then I can Build to 3 storm and play grapeshot to kill both. If the opponent has Canonist+another hate bear then Pyroclasm is better.

I wished for Grapeshot a good amount of times where it was good as wincondition, but there are probably times where Pyroclasm would have won the game against some tribal deck (I'm favoured against those, but happens to lose one game).

BreathWeapon
02-07-2009, 12:32 AM
Naming Tendrils of Agony is FAIL, Meddling Mage names either Orim's Chant, Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond more often than not, because stopping the opponent from combing is > then making them use a different win condition.

The problem with the "I'll just wish for Shattering Spree vs 2xEthersworn Canonist" argument is that it forces you to use your artifact removal instead of your creature removal ... and that becomes a problem when your opponent drops a Chalice of the Void right after you removed Ethersworn Canonist. Also Grape Shotting 2 "hate bears" is not easy, and often it's not even possible, where Pyroclasm doesn't give a shit about Storm and takes the rest of their board to boot.

I just think Pyroclasm is more pragmatic, sometimes you just have to go back to basics.

Edit: You can name Orim's Chant with or with out Force of Will in your hand, in fact I think naming Orim's Chant with out Force of Will in your hand is the best play, because it's a stone cold bluff that works a lot.

GreenOne
02-07-2009, 08:01 AM
Also Grape Shotting 2 "hate bears" is not easy, and often it's not even possible, where Pyroclasm doesn't give a shit about Storm and takes the rest of their board to boot.
I never had problem reaching 3 storm before playing Grapeshot if there was no Canonist involved. At the time (when i was playing it), I had trouble getting my Pyroclasm countered though.


The problem with the "I'll just wish for Shattering Spree vs 2xEthersworn Canonist" argument is that it forces you to use your artifact removal instead of your creature removal ... and that becomes a problem when your opponent drops a Chalice of the Void right after you removed Ethersworn Canonist.
If there are a couple Canonists beating on you you probably are already low on life by the time you wish and play spree. If the opponent then plays a chalice here's the scenario:
- He probably just topdecked the chalice, otherwise why should't he play it making much more difficult for you to fuck his board?
- You have a second burning wish and have the resources and time to wish for Spree, play it and not die meanwhile.
- You sided in 2 sprees and didn't draw one, don't have Mystical too.
- You can't combo through Chalice.
- You didn't combo the turn you played Spree, killing the canonists.
- Oh, yeah, and he's also playing Canonists+Chalices like... no deck does?.

This can't be a point.
Pyroclasm is better against tribal decks and overall worse against counters+bears decks (unless bears=canonist).
Pyroclasm can be better against multiple hatebears where Grapeshot can be better against a single one (I can storm 2 and play grapeshot so even with a counterspell the bear is dead).

EDIT:

Naming Tendrils of Agony is FAIL, Meddling Mage names either Orim's Chant, Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond more often than not, because stopping the opponent from combing is > then making them use a different win condition.
Actually, you're right. Against your deck they can just name Ad Nauseam, leaving you with an engine that gives them 7 cards. Or they can name Burning Wish, knowing that their bear will chant forever, cause you have no way to remove it.

BreathWeapon
02-07-2009, 08:46 AM
I never had problem reaching 3 storm before playing Grapeshot if there was no Canonist involved. At the time (when i was playing it), I had trouble getting my Pyroclasm countered though.


If there are a couple Canonists beating on you you probably are already low on life by the time you wish and play spree. If the opponent then plays a chalice here's the scenario:
- He probably just topdecked the chalice, otherwise why should't he play it making much more difficult for you to fuck his board?
- You have a second burning wish and have the resources and time to wish for Spree, play it and not die meanwhile.
- You sided in 2 sprees and didn't draw one, don't have Mystical too.
- You can't combo through Chalice.
- You didn't combo the turn you played Spree, killing the canonists.
- Oh, yeah, and he's also playing Canonists+Chalices like... no deck does?.

This can't be a point.
Pyroclasm is better against tribal decks and overall worse against counters+bears decks (unless bears=canonist).
Pyroclasm can be better against multiple hatebears where Grapeshot can be better against a single one (I can storm 2 and play grapeshot so even with a counterspell the bear is dead).

EDIT:

Actually, you're right. Against your deck they can just name Ad Nauseam, leaving you with an engine that gives them 7 cards. Or they can name Burning Wish, knowing that their bear will chant forever, cause you have no way to remove it.

You're playing against bad players, Burning Wish should be countered to protect the "hate bear" from removal and prevent Empty the Warrens, Grape Shot just opens you up to both a counter on Burning Wish and Stifle on Grape Shot.

Ethersworn Canonist + Chalice of the Void = Affinity, White Weenie, GBW Rock and sometimes Landstill. Pyroclasm > Ethersworn Canonist is enough to justify Pyroclasm > Grape Shot, that slot is for "hate bears."

A "hate bear" or a couple of "hate bears" aren't always problematic, because I have walls.

No, the opponent can't just drop Meddling Mage on Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns and Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens cost 1 more (and Tinder Wall upped the mana threshold) and more importantly Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Ill Gotten Gains is still possible. You can always cut a land for a MD Empty the Warrens regardless, but the point is TES was designed to ignore Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony, so putting Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony is really stupid.

GreenOne
02-07-2009, 10:38 AM
TES was designed to ignore Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony, so putting Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony is really stupid.
You're right.

You're playing against bad players, Burning Wish should be countered to protect the "hate bear" from removal and prevent Empty the Warrens, Grape Shot just opens you up to both a counter on Burning Wish and Stifle on Grape Shot.

Yeah, Burning Wish should be countered, but since you're not playing Burning Wish+Pyroclasm on the same turn, they have a turn to cantrip into FoW, Spell Snare or BEB.
You can work against Stifle with Chant (if you play it).


Ethersworn Canonist + Chalice of the Void = Affinity, White Weenie, GBW Rock and sometimes Landstill. Pyroclasm > Ethersworn Canonist is enough to justify Pyroclasm > Grape Shot, that slot is for "hate bears."

Looking at the last 10 decks that top8ed on deckcheck for each deck type here are the results:
Affinity: 17 canonists played. Zero canonist+chalice
WW: zero Canonists played.
The Rock: zero Canonists played.
UBGW Landstill: 1 Canonist played (!!!).
UW(x) Landstill: zero Canonist played.

If I'm not playing against real opponents, you probably aren't playing against real decks :tongue:
I'm not changing my strategy based on what less than half of Affinity decks (an already favoured matchup) might be playing.
That said, I'm still of the opinion that Pyroclasm is a good choice in metas with many tribal decks or 8hatebears.dec

SuperBean
02-08-2009, 03:06 AM
It seems to be a bit off topic at this point, but with Tinder Wall being discussed I am curious if anyone has done further testing with the card?

GreenOne
02-08-2009, 05:59 AM
It seems to be a bit off topic at this point, but with Tinder Wall being discussed I am curious if anyone has done further testing with the card?
Breathweapon is testing it in the list he posted.
I really wanna test it but don't know which slot should be dedicated. The natural slot would be the Cabal Ritual ones, but I'd like to have a single copy to Mystical, and a second one to Infernal Tutor (this one is less important). It probably can take some protection slot in aggro metas, but I guess Cabal Ritual is the only slot that can be used for testing.

BreathWeapon
02-08-2009, 08:36 AM
It seems to be a bit off topic at this point, but with Tinder Wall being discussed I am curious if anyone has done further testing with the card?

Tinder Wall is awesome, once you run a set of Tinder Wall and a set of Ad Nauseam, you'll wonder why we weren't running Tinder Wall in the fist place. I'm certain it's superior to Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual, and I actually like it more than Rite of Flame depending on the situation.

It's a mini, unconditional LED a lot.

Bryant Cook
02-09-2009, 02:36 PM
Tinder Wall is awesome, once you run a set of Tinder Wall and a set of Ad Nauseam, you'll wonder why we weren't running Tinder Wall in the fist place. I'm certain it's superior to Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual, and I actually like it more than Rite of Flame depending on the situation.

It's a mini, unconditional LED a lot.

Tinderwall isn't worth it. We've been over this before. Requiring G mana is awful in a combo turn and if you don't use it in the combo turn you risk losing acceleration to creature hate. It only adds one mana - ever. Cabal Ritual and Rite of Flame both add one, while having a possibility of creating more mana. While not being stopped by removal and they are both colors the deck already uses. Also, a set of Nauseum? Ludicrous.

nodahero
02-09-2009, 04:30 PM
Typically I am not one to disagree with people I highly respect as combo players however in this case I feel it is necessary to disagree with Bryant.

Yesterday morning I attended a tournament with 16 players playing Breaths list with the exclusion of main deck protection to run more storm accelerants and took second place with my only losses occurring against a mono-black discard deck backed up by quick Stalker beats which I still went 2-1 against and against a fairly standard team America deck. The team America losses were mainly due to my lack of game 1 protection and game 2 casting Diminishing Returns and fizziling.

One of the strongest tools that Breaths list allows for is top decked Adnausems when otherwise impossible without Tinder Walls in situations such as heavy discard. Not to mention His version is also slightly better in a blue light/blue non-existant meta game. I do realize that such a meta is almost impossible however yesterday there was only one Team America and one Merfolk deck packing control.

I realize that my adjustments also skew the results from Breath's deck however I was in a position to do very well if I cut the main deck protection for increased speed. In hindisight I realize it cost me first place. I also realize that five rounds is not even remotely a large enough pool of data to prove the value of Breath's list but the initial test seemed good IF YOU DODGE blue decks otherwise I would stick with Bryant's list.

matelml
02-10-2009, 03:29 AM
Tinderwall isn't worth it. We've been over this before. Requiring G mana is awful in a combo turn and if you don't use it in the combo turn you risk losing acceleration to creature hate. It only adds one mana - ever. Cabal Ritual and Rite of Flame both add one, while having a possibility of creating more mana. While not being stopped by removal and they are both colors the deck already uses. Also, a set of Nauseum? Ludicrous.

This is untrue. Tinder Wall also gives at least 1 and sometimes 2 mana. If played in the combo turn it gives 1 and is just as hard to cast as Rite of Flame (ok, excluding Mox, not really relevant) and it gives 2 if you play it the turn before, which is probably a less restricting condition than getting threshhold.
Why do you base the strength of some card, like Tinder Wall in this case, on what someone plays next to it? It's pretty clear you don't need to play 4 AdN next to it.

Edit: I might have misunderstood, if you meant the only spells that make 1 unconditional, 2 under some condition and don't have the creature removal drawback. Still, you could see it as a ritual that makes 1 and only makes 2 against decks that don't play removal. Than it's still reasonable, even though it's probably better to just take the chance in some situations.

emidln
02-10-2009, 08:19 AM
I don't even play this deck that often, but each time I play I find it extremely relevant to be able to cast red spells off Chrome Mox by imprinting other red spells. This comes up a lot after I've cast Ad Nauseam. This seems like a serious drawback and a place where Bryant is correct.

GreenOne
02-10-2009, 09:43 AM
After a bit of testing, I'm feeling comfortable with the actual number of Black sources in the deck. It can be good with -1, but I like at least a cabal ritual in the deck.

I'd love some number of tinder walls, but I really don't know wchich slots they should take: They're worse than Rite of Flame and Dark Ritual, they can't replace moxes or petals, 1 Cabal ritual should be played, so that leaves me with just a single slot. I guess they can take some protection slot in aggro-heavy metas, but not in a normal one. The deck already plays 22 acceleration spells, so it's probably not a good idea to take out some business spell to play more acceleration. In the end, Tinder Wall just seems worse than every other acceleration piece in our deck but Cabal Ritual, that it's a 2of.

Jeff Kruchkow
02-10-2009, 12:33 PM
IF YOU DODGE blue decks

So you basically played Belcher? Because dropping protecting and adding more accel just makes a really odd version of belcher.

As far as Tinder Wall, color is really important off a mox as if you cant get enough to go off after AdN you are in a bad place.

Also, as far as it being a mini-LED, LED can't get Swords/Snuff Out/(insert creature removal). The fact that Game 1 your opponent has alot of dead cards helps TES out a god deal, turning that removal back on is bad. Also, as far as its ability to stop turn 1 lackey, we are playing COMBO. If you can't outrace Goblins easily you are terrible with, 1) the deck, 2) mulligans, 3) luck. Yes it's nice to be able to store mana for the next turn but if i wanted to do that I would just run more lands.

Just my 2 cents.

BreathWeapon
02-10-2009, 12:46 PM
Tinderwall isn't worth it. We've been over this before. Requiring G mana is awful in a combo turn and if you don't use it in the combo turn you risk losing acceleration to creature hate. It only adds one mana - ever. Cabal Ritual and Rite of Flame both add one, while having a possibility of creating more mana. While not being stopped by removal and they are both colors the deck already uses. Also, a set of Nauseum? Ludicrous.

You said the same thing about Mystical Tutor, what you have to realize is that Ad Nauseam has changed the function of the cards we cut and the cards we play, and Tinder Wall is the same as Mystical Tutor in that case. Tinder Wall turning removal into a "counter" isn't a problem game one, because you have an either/or choice, and it isn't a problem game two/three unless your opponent keeps his removal (and I 8> acceleration that creates DCA). G mana is no worse than W on the combo turn, and you can either play Tinder Wall before the combo turn or you can replace Orim's Chant with Duress, which lets you both play your disruption before the combo turn or on the combo turn off of Dark Ritual. My deck is faster than your deck, my deck is more threat dense than your deck and my deck has greater color stability than your deck and I've tested both to know. About the only serious draw back is that my deck isn't packing the same amount of disruption, 5 now that I've cut the 11th land, but I can break counter walls with threats.

Stop passing judgment and pick up the deck, not running a set of Ad Nauseam when you're running a set of Brainstorm and Ponder is retarded, so many of my turn 2 wins come from casting Brainstorm or Ponder, stacking Ad Nauseam and then sacrificing LED during my upkeep. If you cut Ill Gotten Gains, I'm running 1 more high CC card than you.

Edit: Don't understimate Tinder Wall as a blocker, while yes you can "go off" before Goblins kills you, those attacks do mathematically reduce your odds of winning post Ad Nauseam. Tinder Wall holding off Meddling Mage is a pretty common scenario, and those life points are going to matter.

b4r0n
02-10-2009, 12:58 PM
You said the same thing about Mystical Tutor, what you have to realize is that Ad Nauseam has changed the function of the cards we cut and the cards we play, and Tinder Wall is the same as Mystical Tutor in that case. Tinder Wall turning removal into a "counter" isn't a problem game one, because you have an either/or choice, and it isn't a problem game two/three unless your opponent keeps his removal (and I 8> acceleration that creates DCA). G mana is no worse than W on the combo turn, and you can either play Tinder Wall before the combo turn or you can replace Orim's Chant with Duress, which lets you both play your disruption before the combo turn or on the combo turn off of Dark Ritual. My deck is faster than your deck, my deck is more threat dense than your deck and my deck has greater color stability than your deck and I've tested both to know. About the only serious draw back is that my deck isn't packing the same amount of disruption, 5 now that I've cut the 11th land, but I can break counter walls with threats.

You're arguing for a BUILD that's quite different from the accepted list. That's very different from arguing for the inclusion of a card.


Stop passing judgment and pick up the deck, not running a set of Ad Nauseam when you're running a set of Brainstorm and Ponder is retarded, so many of my turn 2 wins come from casting Brainstorm or Ponder, stacking Ad Nauseam and then sacrificing LED during my upkeep. If you cut Ill Gotten Gains, I'm running 1 more high CC card than you.

Running a set of Ad Nauseam seems like a bad decision. Yes, it wins games. No, it is not necessary to run all 4. Mystical serves as Ad Nauseams 3 and 4, plus it's able to get disruption or acceleration.

It seems like you're just planning on going all-in every game and taking your chances. If that's your plan, you may as well play Belcher. Not TES.

Arsenal
02-10-2009, 01:03 PM
Edit: Don't understimate Tinder Wall as a blocker, while yes you can "go off" before Goblins kills you, those attacks do mathematically reduce your odds of winning post Ad Nauseam. Tinder Wall holding off Meddling Mage is a pretty common scenario, and those life points are going to matter.

Ill-Gotten Gains?

Bryant Cook
02-10-2009, 01:05 PM
You said the same thing about Mystical Tutor I still hate Mystical every time I open up two I want to throw the deck. It's like mulliganing to five. Also, That's not a valid excuse and is a poor argument. One card making one other card somewhat playable does not mean that my credibility and knowledge of storm is less than yours. I have plently of results that show otherwise.


Tinder Wall turning removal into a "counter" isn't a problem game one, because you have an either/or choice, and it isn't a problem game two/three unless your opponent keeps his removal (and I 8> acceleration that creates DCA). Are you kidding? I'm being serious here. I can't tell. Turning a dead card into a card that has a use isn't like a counter. Counter's hit relevant cards, not weak Rite of Flames.


G mana is no worse than W on the combo turn, and you can either play Tinder Wall before the combo turn or you can replace Orim's Chant with Duress, which lets you both play your disruption before the combo turn or on the combo turn off of Dark Ritual. My deck is faster than your deck, my deck is more threat dense than your deck and my deck has greater color stability than your deck and I've tested both to know.
I'm glad you think these things about your deck. But where are the statistics? Faster isn't always better, the list you pilot is terrible against real opponents playing blue in a tournament where the skill level is above average.


Stop passing judgment and pick up the deck, not running a set of Ad Nauseam when you're running a set of Brainstorm and Ponder is retarded, so many of my turn 2 wins come from casting Brainstorm or Ponder, stacking Ad Nauseam and then sacrificing LED during my upkeep. If you cut Ill Gotten Gains, I'm running 1 more high CC card than you. Making assumptions doesn't make your argument any more valid. I do a lot of testing and know what cards work and don't, what cards fill roles better than others. I was wrong about 2 cards in all of TES's history, Brainstorm and Mystical. Would you like to compare to your list? Cutting Ill-Gotten Gains leaves you next to no outs maindeck. Meaning an average hand won't win you the game because you need an extraordinary hard with Protection, more acceleration and a way to find Burning Wish. Too many Ad Nauseum causes games in which you should've won, to losses. Why do this when you can just lower the average cc and play different cards?


Edit: Don't understimate Tinder Wall as a blocker, while yes you can "go off" before Goblins kills you, those attacks do mathematically reduce your odds of winning post Ad Nauseam. Tinder Wall holding off Meddling Mage is a pretty common scenario, and those life points are going to matter.
The goblins argument is irrelevant. You shouldn't be caring about goblins. Also, if you played a different list you wouldn't be holding off Mages. You'd win around them.

BreathWeapon
02-10-2009, 07:57 PM
@Arsenal

Against Goblins, yes, against Threshold maybe or maybe not. The usefulness of Tinder Wall comes down to your hand composition and their disruption/clock, in theory it never blocks, in reality it does.

@B4ron

Ok, but it's TES at TES's core, I'm just emphasizing a different acceleration, threat and disruption package.

Mystical Tutor is versatile, but it's also slow and costly, Time Walking your opponent into Counterbalance is antithetical to TES.

That argument is non-sense, I could just as easily say you should play DDFT, TES has and always will be a turn 1/2 Storm deck.

@Bryant

1)

It's not a you or me pissing contest, my point was Ad Nauseam has changed the utility of Mystical Tutor, Orim's Chant and Tinder Wall, and the merits and demerits of each card have to be re-evaluated.

2)

Tinder Wall turns Swords to Plowshares into a W "counter" for your mana, it's no more or less a counter than Blue Elemental Blast on Rite of Flame is, but again my point was Swords to Plowshares isn't problematic because you have the choice of "Tinder Wall go" or sacrificing Tinder Wall immediately.

3)

Me claiming my deck is faster and more efficient is less dubious than you claiming my deck is "terrible" vs skilled players with blue decks in tournaments when you have absolutely no evidence.

I don't think it has more speed and efficiency, I know it has more speed efficiency, because that's what happens when you increase the acceleration and threats in a combo deck. Whether or not more speed and efficiency makes up for less disruption and flexibility is your real argument here, and that's totally a meta game and play style call.

4)

I'm sorry, but I don't buy "I know what cards work and what cards don't work" as the status quo, and considering I've done more testing with your deck and my deck for comparison, you're the one assuming things here.

Cutting Ill Gotten Gains doesn't leave the deck with next to no outs, cutting Ill Gotten Gains just adds +R to Infernal Tutor to find Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens compared to the IGG loop, and that's not counting +W and Orim's Chant if a counter was baited. I'm tired of mulling to six just for IGG MD, I don't think it's worth it any more.

Saying Ad Nauseam costs you games you should've won is only relevant when it kills you post Ad Nauseam, but that's not a fair argument because with out Ad Nauseam(s) you couldn't have cast one in the first place. What I mean is, the number of Ad Nauseam(s) matters, both in a negative sense where Ad Nauseam increases avg. CC and in a positive sense where Ad Nauseam off of Brainstorm/Ponder turns a LED into a Lotus or Add Nauseam off of Diminishing Returns lets you keep going.

As far as why play Ad Nauseam when you could play other cards ... because if you're not playing Ad Nauseam then you're playing Mystical Tutor, and Mystical Tutor has its own issues.

5)

Goblins I'll give you, but saying Tinder Wall is worthless vs Meddling Mage, Gaddok Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist is going too far, because even tho' you can win around Meddling Mage he still buys time and deals damage. I'd rather have the life than not, and that's all there is to it.

6)

I'm happy with my deck, it suits my style, whether or not it is or it isn't better than your deck is debatable.

Bryant Cook
02-10-2009, 08:24 PM
It's not a you or me pissing contest, my point was Ad Nauseam has changed the utility of Mystical Tutor, Orim's Chant and Tinder Wall, and the merits and demerits of each card have to be re-evaluated. Either way, Tinderwall just doesn't have a place in the deck.


Tinder Wall turns Swords to Plowshares into a W "counter" for your mana, it's no more or less a counter than Blue Elemental Blast on Rite of Flame is, but again my point was Swords to Plowshares isn't problematic because you have the choice of "Tinder Wall go" or sacrificing Tinder Wall immediately. You're still making dead cards relevant.


Me claiming my deck is faster and more efficient is less dubious than you claiming my deck is "terrible" vs skilled players with blue decks in tournaments when you have absolutely no evidence. You don't play Orim's Chant. Of course your list is going to be worse versus blue.


Cutting Ill Gotten Gains doesn't leave the deck with next to no outs, cutting Ill Gotten Gains just adds +R to Infernal Tutor to find Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens compared to the IGG loop, and that's not counting +W and Orim's Chant if a counter was baited. I'm tired of mulling to six just for IGG MD, I don't think it's worth it any more. You now rely too much on Burning Wish. You'll lose to Spell Snare because you couldn't Duress that Counterbalance/Force and Spell Snare.


Saying Ad Nauseam costs you games you should've won is only relevant when it kills you post Ad Nauseam, but that's not a fair argument because with out Ad Nauseam(s) you couldn't have cast one in the first place. What I mean is, the number of Ad Nauseam(s) matters, both in a negative sense where Ad Nauseam increases avg. CC and in a positive sense where Ad Nauseam off of Brainstorm/Ponder turns a LED into a Lotus or Add Nauseam off of Diminishing Returns lets you keep going. How is it not fair? Playing 4 5cc cards in the deck is certainly a fair argument. It's a deckbuilding flaw that will cause losses.


Goblins I'll give you, but saying Tinder Wall is worthless vs Meddling Mage, Gaddok Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist is going too far, because even tho' you can win around Meddling Mage he still buys time and deals damage. I'd rather have the life than not, and that's all there is to it. You wouldn't need all of this life if you just played Ill-Gotten Gains. You wouldn't be forced into casting Nauseum every game.

BreathWeapon
02-10-2009, 09:05 PM
Either way, Tinderwall just doesn't have a place in the deck.

You're still making dead cards relevant.

You don't play Orim's Chant. Of course your list is going to be worse versus blue.

You now rely too much on Burning Wish. You'll lose to Spell Snare because you couldn't Duress that Counterbalance/Force and Spell Snare.

How is it not fair? Playing 4 5cc cards in the deck is certainly a fair argument. It's a deckbuilding flaw that will cause losses.

You wouldn't need all of this life if you just played Ill-Gotten Gains. You wouldn't be forced into casting Nauseum every game.

1)

Tinder Wall is less CC than Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual for either the same or more amount of mana, whether or not you run it is up to you, but you can't say it's not worth running. Tinder Wall doesn't really make Swords to Plowshares relevant, Swords to Plowshares just makes "Tinder Wall, go" a risky move game 1. It's not like it's Vexing Shusher, where Swords to Plowshares and Blue Elemental Blast really fucking hurt.

2)

My win rate with Duress is higher than my win rate with Orim's Chant vs blue decks, because stopping Counterbalance is more important than stopping Stifle and Spellsnare when you're running Ad Nauseam. You can play around the 1cc counters, but you can't play around permanent hate.

3)

Huh?

4)

It's not a fair argument because all you're considering is the avg. CC when the odds of drawing Ad Nauseam with Brainstorm/Ponder and Diminishing Returns are also relevant. It's not a design flaw, it's risk vs reward.


5)

That's fair, but it's still useful, IMO.

Jeff Kruchkow
02-11-2009, 12:09 AM
1)

Tinder Wall is less CC than Simian Spirit Guide and Cabal Ritual for either the same or more amount of mana, whether or not you run it is up to you, but you can't say it's not worth running. Tinder Wall doesn't really make Swords to Plowshares relevant, Swords to Plowshares just makes "Tinder Wall, go" a risky move game 1. It's not like it's Vexing Shusher, where Swords to Plowshares and Blue Elemental Blast really fucking hurt.

2)

My win rate with Duress is higher than my win rate with Orim's Chant vs blue decks, because stopping Counterbalance is more important than stopping Stifle and Spellsnare when you're running Ad Nauseam. You can play around the 1cc counters, but you can't play around permanent hate.

3)

Huh?

4)

It's not a fair argument because all you're considering is the avg. CC when the odds of drawing Ad Nauseam with Brainstorm/Ponder and Diminishing Returns are also relevant. It's not a design flaw, it's risk vs reward.


5)

That's fair, but it's still useful, IMO.

1) It may be less CC but it costs an off color to the deck. You can say its not worth it to play it because it has more downsides and less potential upsides that Cabal Rit or Rite of Flame.

2) How does duress stop an active counterbalance? And last i checked, TES ran duress and Chant but i would rather only worry about active counterbalance than counterbalance, Force, stifle....

3) Hes saying that you list is worse vs. blue because you can only get 4 counters from them since you only have duress. See the Chant vs Duress arguments a few pages earlier.

4) Diminishing Returns is a last ditch thing. If you have to go for it, you probally aren't in a position to use AdN. Also, your chances of getting one of 2x Mystical or 2x AdN is the same as getting 4x AdN, only one hurts a hell of a lot less during AdN.

Overall, the debate isn't necessarily that Tinder Wall is bad, obviously it isn't since it is played in Belcher but what is being said is that it is just inferior to other mana accel options.

jrp
02-11-2009, 12:50 AM
I think that Tinder Wall makes a lot of sense in the deck. I haven't tested it at all, but in theory it should be better than Cabal Ritual. One less CC for AdN...check. Gives the option of +2mana if you are willing/need to take the risk of playing it and passing...check. Can block random creatures to preserve life for AdN...check. I know many people will write off this third point, but even Bryant himself has lost to random non-FOW aggro(Goblins) in tournaments. I also would not consider it "off-color" either...all the lands in the deck produce all 5 colors and you have 4 lotus petals (Also when you don't need W in the combo turn the G mana is even less of an issue)!

I've switched my protection suite to 4 Duress and 2 Orim's Chant and have been very pleased. BreathWeapon is right - I've lost many more games to a resolved Counterbalance than to Spell Snare/Stifle now that Ad-Nauseum has been printed. Also, I've found myself requiring IGG less frequently since a resolved AdN will typically give you plently of storm to win. Though I still like my maindeck IGG...

@Jeff
#2) Duress is played to take the Counterbalance out of someone's hand. Orim's Chant cannot do this. Both cards (and for that matter the whole fucking deck) are pretty shitty when facing down a resolved Counterbalance.

#3) This is basically only relevant in the Landstill match where they actually play Counterspell, and are thus mana restricted from playing multiple Counters.

#4) Diminishing Returns is not a "last-ditch" thing. It is a relatively common path to victory when the only "threat" in your hand is Burning Wish.

BreathWeapon
02-11-2009, 05:12 AM
1) It may be less CC but it costs an off color to the deck. You can say its not worth it to play it because it has more downsides and less potential upsides that Cabal Rit or Rite of Flame.

2) How does duress stop an active counterbalance? And last i checked, TES ran duress and Chant but i would rather only worry about active counterbalance than counterbalance, Force, stifle....

3) Hes saying that you list is worse vs. blue because you can only get 4 counters from them since you only have duress. See the Chant vs Duress arguments a few pages earlier.

4) Diminishing Returns is a last ditch thing. If you have to go for it, you probally aren't in a position to use AdN. Also, your chances of getting one of 2x Mystical or 2x AdN is the same as getting 4x AdN, only one hurts a hell of a lot less during AdN.

Overall, the debate isn't necessarily that Tinder Wall is bad, obviously it isn't since it is played in Belcher but what is being said is that it is just inferior to other mana accel options.

1) It's a 5c mana base and it can be cast pre-combo, it's easier to cast Tinder Wall than it is to cast Orim's Chant.

2) Who said anything about active Counterbalance? Every Duress, Red Elemental and Pyroblast is in here to stop Counterbalance from resolving, because that's our most effective method of dealing with Counterbalance.

3) Ad Nauseam just made Orim's Chant less necessary, which lets you focus on disruption that hits Counterbalance, I totally don't buy Orim's Chant > Duress vs Islands for a second.

4) No, Diminishing Returns isn't your last option, it's your only option. My point wasn't casting either Diminishing Returns or Ad Nauseam, my point was casting Diminishing Returns, drawing Ad Nauseam off of Diminishing Returns and then resolving Ad Nauseam 4TW ... Mystical Tutor can't do that. The more Ad Nauseams you have, the more your Brainstorm/Ponder and Diminishing Returns are worth.

Bryant Cook
02-11-2009, 11:51 AM
1) It's a 5c mana base and it can be cast pre-combo, it's easier to cast Tinder Wall than it is to cast Orim's Chant. Then have it gets swords. You ignoring the fact it sucks versus real opponents, its aggravating. Real people will swords it, there's a difference between MWS and a competitive tournament scene. Why run the risk of swords when you can just play better efficient cards? How is it easier to cast? They're both off color. Although, the difference is Chant will win you the game if it resolves, Tinderwall will not.


2) Who said anything about active Counterbalance? Every Duress, Red Elemental and Pyroblast is in here to stop Counterbalance from resolving, because that's our most effective method of dealing with Counterbalance. Which is why I play them too. But you should also be playing Orim's Chant.


3) Ad Nauseam just made Orim's Chant less necessary, which lets you focus on disruption that hits Counterbalance, I totally don't buy Orim's Chant > Duress vs Islands for a second. How? Nauseum doesn't protect the win or the cards leading up to it. Totally different functions, I don't see how you came to this generalization.


4) No, Diminishing Returns isn't your last option, it's your only option. My point wasn't casting either Diminishing Returns or Ad Nauseam, my point was casting Diminishing Returns, drawing Ad Nauseam off of Diminishing Returns and then resolving Ad Nauseam 4TW ... Mystical Tutor can't do that. The more Ad Nauseams you have, the more your Brainstorm/Ponder and Diminishing Returns are worth.

What if you don't have enough acceleration? Or you can't cast it because it costs G. Mystical does get Nauseum, there's a reason we play cantrips. Plus you'll have the blue mana from LED to cast these cards.

BreathWeapon
02-11-2009, 02:04 PM
Then have it gets swords. You ignoring the fact it sucks versus real opponents, its aggravating. Real people will swords it, there's a difference between MWS and a competitive tournament scene. Why run the risk of swords when you can just play better efficient cards? How is it easier to cast? They're both off color. Although, the difference is Chant will win you the game if it resolves, Tinderwall will not.

Which is why I play them too. But you should also be playing Orim's Chant.

How? Nauseum doesn't protect the win or the cards leading up to it. Totally different functions, I don't see how you came to this generalization.



What if you don't have enough acceleration? Or you can't cast it because it costs G. Mystical does get Nauseum, there's a reason we play cantrips. Plus you'll have the blue mana from LED to cast these cards.

1)

If you don't need to play "Tinder Wall, go" then you don't play "Tinder Wall, go." It's an either/or decision to play "Tinder Wall, go" or sacrifice Tinder Wall based on your hand, it's not like your forced to run Tinder Wall into Swords to Plowshares in the same sense your forced to run Xantid Swarm into Swords to Plowshares. If you need the +RR mana then Tinder Wall can produce that mana at risk, Cabal Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide don't offer that option.

Tinder Wall is easier to cast because you can resolve it before the combo turn and untap your land. You have to cast Orim's Chant on your combo turn, which makes off color disruption more prohibitive than off color acceleration.

2)

How does it make sense to play 4 Orim's Chant and 2 Duress when you could play 4 Duress and 2 Orim's Chant with Mystical Tutor? Stopping Counterbalance is more of an imperative than stopping 2xSpellsnare.

3)

Ad Nauseam protects the kill conditions from Stifle and Spellsnare by not being Stifle(able) or Spellsnare(able) itself and drawing into Duress before it resolves the kill condition. There's a reason why Stifle is targeting fetchlands in AnT ...

4)

What I'm saying is extra Ad Nauseam = greater likely hood of winning post Diminishing Returns and greater likely hood of stacking Ad Nauseam post Brainstorm/Ponder for LED.

Mystical Tutor is just a blank post Diminishing Returns, that's why you can't say Mystical Tutor = Ad Nauseam 3,4, Mystical Tutor + Brainstorm/Ponder into Ad Nauseam is just not ever happening. I don't like Mystical Tutor, it's playable in TES, but it doesn't really fit the play style of TES, because the turns and cards it costs you are too much on the draw.

Bryant Cook
02-13-2009, 10:19 AM
1)
If you don't need to play "Tinder Wall, go" then you don't play "Tinder Wall, go." It's an either/or decision to play "Tinder Wall, go" or sacrifice Tinder Wall based on your hand, it's not like your forced to run Tinder Wall into Swords to Plowshares in the same sense your forced to run Xantid Swarm into Swords to Plowshares. If you need the +RR mana then Tinder Wall can produce that mana at risk, Cabal Ritual and Simian Spirit Guide don't offer that option. If you don't run it out on the table you're paying a G to generate a R. Seems awful. Cabal Ritual can't offer the option of red mana, you're correct. Black mana is this deck is by far more important than red, which is why most of us play Cabal Ritual. Not to mention, Cabal Ritual has the strong possibility of creating an additional BBB.


Tinder Wall is easier to cast because you can resolve it before the combo turn and untap your land. You have to cast Orim's Chant on your combo turn, which makes off color disruption more prohibitive than off color acceleration. I'll concede the fact you have to cast Orim's on your turn compared to Tinderwall.


How does it make sense to play 4 Orim's Chant and 2 Duress when you could play 4 Duress and 2 Orim's Chant with Mystical Tutor? Stopping Counterbalance is more of an imperative than stopping 2xSpellsnare. Tempo based decks are more popular than ever. People are over exaggerating the presence of counterbalance. Between Merfolk, Team America, and Tempo Thresh it's more than UGW Counterbalance Thresh.


Ad Nauseam protects the kill conditions from Stifle and Spellsnare by not being Stifle(able) or Spellsnare(able) itself and drawing into Duress before it resolves the kill condition. There's a reason why Stifle is targeting fetchlands in AnT ... It could be that not giving mana to decks is a general gameplan... You're idea on Nauseum being protection is warped. Chant makes sure your spells resolve where Ad Nauseum runs headfirst into counterspells.



What I'm saying is extra Ad Nauseam = greater likely hood of winning post Diminishing Returns and greater likely hood of stacking Ad Nauseam post Brainstorm/Ponder for LED.

Mystical Tutor is just a blank post Diminishing Returns, that's why you can't say Mystical Tutor = Ad Nauseam 3,4, Mystical Tutor + Brainstorm/Ponder into Ad Nauseam is just not ever happening. I don't like Mystical Tutor, it's playable in TES, but it doesn't really fit the play style of TES, because the turns and cards it costs you are too much on the draw.
Well, I don't care for Mystical either, but it's better than flipping an additional ten on another Ad Nauseum. You seem to use Diminishing Returns too much when you should just be Igg looping for the win.

easyrider
02-14-2009, 09:48 PM
I had a question about this hand: Rite, Rite, Petal, Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual. Is this keepable? And also, are hands only keepable if they have Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish/Mystical Tutor?
If this hand is keepable, what is the correct way to play it. I imprinted Brainstorm, and then Mystical Tutored for Infernal Tutor. Then after another turn, I got lucky and drew a Mine and won with the IGG loop. Should I have searched up Ad Nauseam? Also, I was playing against boros, so IGG seemed preferable to Ad Nauseam at the time.

GreenOne
02-15-2009, 05:24 AM
I had a question about this hand: Rite, Rite, Petal, Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual. Is this keepable?
If this hand is keepable, what is the correct way to play it. I imprinted Brainstorm, and then Mystical Tutored for Infernal Tutor. Then after another turn, I got lucky and drew a Mine and won with the IGG loop. Should I have searched up Ad Nauseam? Also, I was playing against boros, so IGG seemed preferable to Ad Nauseam at the time.

I'd mull it: you have no way of recovering if you don't find a land in the top 3 cards with brainstorm.
It's also a bad move to Mystical for IT, it's safer to just wait and see what you draw naturally: what if you draw an IT? what if you draw AN? What if you draw a land? As general rule I mystical if I just miss 1 card to combo off (or if I have to shuffle the deck after a brainstorm/ponder).

I'll suggest you to read this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12542&highlight=mulligans). It was a discussion I started to talk about mulliganing strategy, especially with TES.



And also, are hands only keepable if they have Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish/Mystical Tutor?
Here's my general rule:
- All acceleration and 0 lands: Mull unless you can combo with every business card I draw (Wish, IT, Mystical, AN, Cantrips)
- All acceleration and 1-2 Lands: Keep, cause every cantrip I draw is likely to find me the business spell that wins the game.
- All acceleration and cantrips, 0 lands: keep if the cantrip is a ponder and need just a tutor/AN to win.

GoldenCid
02-15-2009, 08:54 AM
I have a big problem playing this deck...what do you suggest to do agains pox / discard deck?? I mean... dark ritual + hymn to tourach + duress is terrible or even dark ritual + sinkhole + duress is awful. So if he / she starts the game are we out?? If we start the game, is duress our best option to beat them?? What do you thing about 4 duress + 2 orim's chant main deck in a metagame with this kind of decks??

b4r0n
02-15-2009, 09:58 AM
I have a big problem playing this deck...what do you suggest to do agains pox / discard deck?? I mean... dark ritual + hymn to tourach + duress is terrible or even dark ritual + sinkhole + duress is awful. So if he / she starts the game are we out?? If we start the game, is duress our best option to beat them?? What do you thing about 4 duress + 2 orim's chant main deck in a metagame with this kind of decks??

A few (somewhat obvious) suggestions:


play out your artifact mana as soon as you can
use Brainstorm to hide important cards
use Chant during their upkeep to prevent them from using their discard
use Duress to take their discard

They're at an advantage if they go first, and Duress+Hymn/Sinkhole can be a pain, but you can still win out of nowhere with Ad Nauseam. As for the Duress/Chant split: I would probably only cut Chants if there isn't any blue in your metagame. Chant can still be useful against discard if used proactively.

SuperBean
02-15-2009, 10:44 PM
Another victory, for The EPIC Storm..

At my local shop last night, (The Fun Factory in Traverse City, Michigan) there was a 15 person Legacy tournament that I took first place in playing T.E.S. Since it is my local shop and I know almost all of the players that play Legacy and usually what decks they are playing, I made a small change to the main deck. I decided to add 2 more main deck Duresses and 2 more Cabal Rituals because as I was looking around I saw that no one was going to be playing any sort of counter magic that I could see, and I figured that I would be safe adding the Duresses and the Cabal Rituals for a little extra mana ramp, it also gave me 4 more forgiving Chrome Mox imprints for black. But it became quite obvious when I played against the BWU Psychatog deck that Orim's Chant is very helpful in the deck, and to be honest there were a few instances where I wish I would have had Orim's Chant even with the lack of counter magic in the meta.

Also, I would like to add that Bryant's most recent changes to the deck to help make ADN better, have been very successful, every time I managed to cast ADN, and it resolved, it was always amazing and always won me the game.

Below I have included the list that I played last night and how each match up went. I apologize that the matchup reports aren't the most detailed, the next time I do this I'll actually have to take notes versus doing it all from memory.

// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
1 [VS] Undiscovered Paradise

// Spells
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [US] Duress
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [b] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [FS] Pact of Negation
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree

The Tournament was 4 rounds, then split into a Top 4, and then a Top 2.

1st Round: BWU Psychatog (Lost 2-1)

Game 1: (He wins the dice roll) I went for an early Burning Wish to get Empty the Warrens, and my wish was countered by a Force of Will. I then sat for 3 turns, Brainstormed once, and managed to get enough mana to Duress and then ADN. I Duressed him taking a Counterspell leaving him with no counter magic, and then went for ADN, he proceeded to put a Sensei’s Divining Top on top of his library and get another Force of Will and counter my ADN. He then dropped a Moloku, the Clouded Mirror and beat me to the face before I could try to combo out again.

(I board in 2 Shattering Sprees, and 1 Chain of Vapor for 2 Ponders and 1 Infernal Tutor)

Game 2: I go for a first turn Duress, and rip the Force of Will out of his hand, and he is left with no other counters. I pass the turn, and he draws a card, plays a land and says go. I then proceed to go for an early Empty the Warrens via Burning Wish and successfully do it. I get 10 goblins and beat him down within two turns.

Game 3: Nearly the same thing happened in this game, that happened in game 1. I get beaten down by a Moloku and counter magic.

2nd Round: UG Foodchain Combo (Won 2-0)

Game 1: (I win the dice roll) I first turn play a Lion's Eye Diamond, City of Brass, then Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, then cast ADN. I reveal plenty of goodies to cast, play a Burning Wish, and then cast Tendrils.

(I don't board in anything, because I'm not even sure how his deck works.)

Game 2: He goes first, he plays a Forest and passes the turn. I play a Gemstone Mine, and pass the turn. At the end of his turn, I cast a Brainstorm, giving me another Rite of Flame and another Lion's Eye Diamond. I keep the Rite of Flame and draw the Lion's Eye Diamond during my next turn. I play an Undiscovered Paradise, play both of the Lion's Eye Diamonds from my hand, then cast Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame into Burning Wish, breaking 1 Lion's Eye Diamond in response, and cast Empty the Warrens. I get 12 Goblins and he picks his cards up and concedes.

3rd Round: GR Berserk Stompy (Won 2-0)

Game 1: (He wins the dice roll) He plays a Taiga, casts a Llanowar Elf and passes the turn. I play a City of Brass and cast a Ponder, the Ponder yields me 2 Infernal Tutor's and a Brainstorm, all of which are no help. So, I shuffle my deck, draw a Lotus Petal and pass the turn. He plays a Forest, then plays a Silhana Ledgewalker and attacks me for 1 point with the Elf and passes the turn. I go into my turn and play a Lion's Eye Diamond, 2 Lotus Petals, and cast a Rite of Flame. I then cast a Burning Wish, sacrificing my Lion's Eye Diamond and a Petal all for Red, and Empty the Warrens. I get 12 Goblins and pass the turn. He looks at me and goes "So those are all 1/1's right?" And I say "Yes, they are". He proceeds to play another Taiga and attack me with his Ledgewalker, I take the point, and he plays another one and passes the turn. I go into my turn, and swing for 12. He blocks with his 1 Elf taking 11 points. I pass the turn, and he draws his card which apparently was of no help because he scooped up his cards and we went to game 2.

Game 2: He decides that he doesn't want to play first, and play second instead. I draw an amazingly good hand of (Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Forbidden Orchard, ADN, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish, Cabal Ritual. I play my Orchard, cast Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, play my Lion's Eye Diamond and cast ADN sacrificing my Lion's Eye Diamond for RRR in response. I reveal plenty of good stuff, and Tendrils him with my main deck one. After he scooped up his cards he goes "Wow, that was just tons of fun."

4th Round: GWR Zoo (Won 2-0)

Game 1: (I win the dice roll) I play a Gemstone Mine and pass the turn, he then proceeds to fetch for a Taiga and cast a Wild Nicatal and then passes the turn. I end of his turn cast a Mystical Tutor, to go and get ADN. I play another Gemstone mine, then a Lotus Petal, then I cast a Dark Ritual, sacrificing Lotus Petal for Black, and cast ADN. I reveal enough spells and mana ramp to cast an Infernal Tutor, responding with a Lion's Eye Diamond to get a Burning Wish and Tendrils him.

(He shows me flat out that he is boarding in 3 Ethersworn Canonist and two Chalice of the Voids. So I boarded in 2 Shattering Sprees for 2 Ponders again)

Game 2: I decided that my hand just wasn't going to cut it, with no mana ramp other then a Cabal Ritual, a bunch of tutors, an ADN, and no land. I mulligan to 6. He decides that he is going to play first, he fetches for a Savannah, and plays a Jungle Lion and passes the turn. I play a Forbidden Orchard and pass the turn. He then plays another Savannah and drops a Runed Halo naming Tendrils. He attacks me with the Jungle Lion and passes the turn. At the end of his turn, I cast a Mystical Tutor for ADN. I draw my ADN and play a Gemstone Mine, I then played a Lion's Eye Diamond from my hand and a Chrome Mox imprinting an Infernal Tutor. I play a Dark Ritual, and tap my Mox and my remaining land and cast ADN. I again reveal plenty of good stuff to Empty the Warrens for 18 Goblins, and pass the turn. He plays a Tarmogoyf of good size after my ADN and passes the turn. I decide to attack for 18 and he blocks 2. taking 16. I pass the turn, and he plays a Wild Nicatal and passes the turn. I attack for 16, he blocks 2 of them for no reason and of course the game is done.

Top 4: (GW Astral Slide, T.E.S(Me), Eyeless Ichorid, and 2-Land Belcher)

I got paired against Astral Slide, which is obviously a favorable match up.

Round 1: GW Astral Slide (Won 2-0)

Game 1: (He wins the dice roll) He is on the play. He fetches for a Savannah and passes the turn. I draw my card and play a Gemstone Mine and pass the turn, he then at the end of my turn, cycles a Tranquil Thicket. Goes into his turn, plays a Forest and plays a Wall of Blossoms. I go into my turn, play a City of Brass and a Chrome Mox imprinting an Infernal Tutor and then play a Dark Ritual followed by a Lion's Eye Diamond. I tap both of my lands for a quick ADN, again ramping up enough spells to Burning Wish into a Tendrils and win.

(I board in 2 Shattering Sprees for 2 Ponders again)

Game 2: He decides that he wants to be on the play, and plays a Savannah again and passes the turn. I draw, play a City of Brass and pass the turn. He, at the end of my turn, cycles a Tranquil Thicket and goes into his turn. He plays a Plains and passes the turn. I, at the end of his turn, Brainstorm into a Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame and Cabal Ritual. So, I keep the Rite of Flame and draw the next during my turn. I play another City of Brass and pass the turn. He goes into his turn, casts a Solitary Confinement and passes. I go into my turn, draw the Cabal Ritual I cast Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Cabal Ritual into ADN and reveal another good ADN draw down to 10 life points. I manage to have enough mana after the ADN to cast an Empty the Warrens with 10 storm, giving me 20 Goblins. With the mana remaining I cast an Infernal Tutor, in response sacrificing a Lion's Eye Diamond to get a Burning Wish getting Hull Breach. I pass the turn with Hull Breach in my hand, and pass the turn. He goes into his turn and scoops his cards up.

Round 2: Eyless Ichorid (Won 2-0)

The person playing the deck decides that he wants to split the prize money down the middle and give me the 2-0 Victory.... I was okay with that.

All in all, it was a fun night and I really enjoyed playing the deck. :cool:

Jaiminho
02-16-2009, 12:49 AM
Nothing better than teaching people that decks should interact not later than turn 2 on the play. Congrats on the finish.

SuperBean
02-16-2009, 01:57 AM
Thanks, I applied to the Storm boards by the way. :smile:

kicks_422
02-16-2009, 07:40 AM
If you were to add Chants back in (which I think you should), what cards would you replace it with? I think you were lucky that you didn't play against any deck with countermagic besides Psychatog. Any good combo deck would have won this one.

GoldenCid
02-16-2009, 08:53 AM
Round 2: Eyless Ichorid (Won 2-0)

The person playing the deck decides that he wants to split the prize money down the middle and give me the 2-0 Victory.... I was okay with that.


This would has been an interesting comment...however considering that it was a non LED ichorid i think that it was a good pairing...

BreathWeapon
02-16-2009, 11:07 AM
If you don't run it out on the table you're paying a G to generate a R. Seems awful. Cabal Ritual can't offer the option of red mana, you're correct. Black mana is this deck is by far more important than red, which is why most of us play Cabal Ritual. Not to mention, Cabal Ritual has the strong possibility of creating an additional BBB.

I'll concede the fact you have to cast Orim's on your turn compared to Tinderwall.

Tempo based decks are more popular than ever. People are over exaggerating the presence of counterbalance. Between Merfolk, Team America, and Tempo Thresh it's more than UGW Counterbalance Thresh.

It could be that not giving mana to decks is a general gameplan... You're idea on Nauseum being protection is warped. Chant makes sure your spells resolve where Ad Nauseum runs headfirst into counterspells.



Well, I don't care for Mystical either, but it's better than flipping an additional ten on another Ad Nauseum. You seem to use Diminishing Returns too much when you should just be Igg looping for the win.

1) Both G for RR and 1B for BBB are bad, but G, pass for RR + Untapped Land is faster and more consistent than 1B, threshold for BBBBB, IMO. My point wasn't that Tinder Wall produced Red mana and Cabal Ritual produces black man, my point was that it's easier/faster for Tinder Wall to produce additional mana than it is for Cabal Ritual to produce additional mana and you can use Tinder Wall during your upkeep to cast Ad Nauseam (Cabal Ritual doesn't really help because if you have 2 mana to cast Cabal Ritual then you've got 5 mana to cast Ad Nauseam regardless)

2) Ok

3) Could be metagames, Counterbalance > Tempo here.

4) No, Orim's Chant compensated for the inherent "inefficiencies" of the original storm engines, Ill Gotten Gains recurs counters and Diminishing Returns draws 7 cards etc. Ad Nauseam doesn't have an inherent "inefficiency" against the opponent's disruption, because there's no chance they'll be able to recur or draw into a counter or Stifle the Tendrils of Agony off the IGG chain.

Essentially Ad Nauseam is protection because it doesn't require a 2cc tutor to search for it, it doesn't recur/draw counters and you can draw into disruption to protect your kill from Stifle.

5) I'd argue revealing Ad Nauseam off of Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm/Ponder is more important than not taking 5/10 more damage off of Ad Nauseam->Ad Nauseam.

How exactly am I using Diminishing Returns when I should be using Ill Gotten Gains instead?

SuperBean
02-16-2009, 03:10 PM
I do own my play-set of Orim's Chant already, and I'm not sure if you read my post or not, but it says why I took them out for that day. I also explained that after the tournament was done, I wish I would have never taken them out to begin with.

kicks_422
02-16-2009, 06:22 PM
So it's back to the list of -2 Duress and -2 Cabal Ritual for the 4 Chants? Well anyway, congrats on the finish.

SuperBean
02-16-2009, 11:40 PM
Yep it sure is, and thanks :smile:

Pelikanudo
02-19-2009, 10:45 AM
I'd like to know if anybody has found GrapeShot usefull in the side and why
because I really don't find it necesary , its only purpose is killing mayb meddlimages and gaddock teeg, buut is not pyroclasm much more better for this goal?

Arsenal
02-19-2009, 11:05 AM
I'd like to know if anybody has found GrapeShot usefull in the side and why
because I really don't find it necesary , its only purpose is killing mayb meddlimages and gaddock teeg, buut is not pyroclasm much more better for this goal?

It also doubles as a more cost effective win condition if you're opponent is at 10 life or less. Grapeshot = hate bear killer or a win condition. Pyroclasm = hate bear killer. You decide.

Pelikanudo
02-19-2009, 11:16 AM
It also doubles as a more cost effective win condition if you're opponent is at 10 life or less. Grapeshot = hate bear killer or a win condition. Pyroclasm = hate bear killer. You decide.

well , the only situation in which our opponent is at 10 life when we start the combo is... never¡ even we can win with tendrils in this situation with simply less storm..
I've played maany times and almost always I finish with Tendrils and in rare occasions Empty TW, but never grapeshot,
however once I found in table a mage naming tendrils and a canonist , well concretly to this situation burnin-> + next turn pyroclasm is the most efficient,
if there are 2 annoying boys in table like this (or mage + teeg or canonist + x, etc) it's more efficient to play pyroclasm ,hell , we even avoid to cast more crds from our hand in order to avoid making storm¡¡

emidln
02-19-2009, 11:31 AM
Ad Nauseam makes Grapeshot a viable win condition on its own. That it can deal with hate bears or lessen the necessary storm to win with Tendrils (Burning Wish -> Grapeshot then play Tendrils) are yet more reasons to play it.

Arsenal
02-19-2009, 11:34 AM
well , the only situation in which our opponent is at 10 life when we start the combo is... never¡ even we can win with tendrils in this situation with simply less storm..

You're telling me you've never cast a non-lethal Tendrils before? I can remember plenty of times my opponent was able to go broken early, or get a horde out before I could setup anything. In these situations, I used Tendrils for about 8-12 life, just to buy me a few more turns. A non-lethal Tendrils is a bit more common than you make it seem.

thebadmagicplayer
02-19-2009, 12:27 PM
ad nauseam can make it a kill card and it's one more thing that you can win with so it isn't a bad option for the side board.
@arsenal : I prefer not to do that but sometimes I do throw one out for 12-14 when I'm out of options.

Arsenal
02-19-2009, 12:32 PM
@arsenal : I prefer not to do that but sometimes I do throw one out for 12-14 when I'm out of options.

Oh, I wasn't implying that your goal should be casting a non-lethal Tendrils, but there are times when it's either (a.) losing the game, or (b.) casting a Tendrils for 8-12 life and living for a few more turns. My non-lethal Tendrils response was to Pelikanudo's claim that "the only situation in which our opponent is at 10 life when we start the combo is... never".

Corwin
02-19-2009, 12:54 PM
Don't you all think that it's better to cast Empty the Warrens when you don't reach 10 storm count? That's why I still have it mainboard, and not just side.

EDIT: How do you side against merfolk?

GreenOne
02-19-2009, 12:59 PM
How do you side against merfolk?
I bring in Blasts and Xantid Swarm. Blast doubles at board control and Swarm is good, since monoblue has zero ways to deal with a resolved xantid.

Arsenal
02-19-2009, 01:12 PM
Don't you all think that it's better to cast Empty the Warrens when you don't reach 10 storm count? That's why I still have it mainboard, and not just side.

EDIT: How do you side against merfolk?

In the scenario I presented (mid-game range, opponent has good board position, I just had to cast non-lethal Tendrils to buy a few more turns, etc), I would go for Grapeshot over EtW given the chance. Going all in with EtW, especially in the situation where it's already mid-game, opens you up to WoG/EE/Keg/Deed/etc way too much.

EtW, to me, is a card that I'll use if it's turn 1, and I'm on the play versus an unknown opponent.

Corwin
02-19-2009, 01:34 PM
@GreenOne: so do you think that shusher isn't necessary?
@Arsenal: Ok, so you prefer to try to clean the board killing as more as creatures as possible I see, I have to try this way.

GreenOne
02-19-2009, 01:37 PM
@GreenOne: so do you think that shusher isn't necessary?
I'm not playing it, so I don't board it :tongue:
Shusher, however, is a good card against counterbalance, and they're not running it. I probably wouldn't board him.

Arsenal
02-19-2009, 02:31 PM
@Arsenal: Ok, so you prefer to try to clean the board killing as more as creatures as possible I see, I have to try this way.

To be honest, I rarely opt to EtW unless I have a neutral board and loads of information about my opponent's current/upcoming hand. Winning through the red zone is unappealing to me due to various token sweepers. Ideally, if I can EtW for 8-12 early (turn 1 or turn 2), I will. If it's later in the game, I don't feel comforable spending so many resources for 1/1 tokens, only to see them swept away when I pass.

EDIT: Although, I'm admittedly new to TES (been playing AnT UBw based stuff), so I may be wrong in my assessment of EtW. Perhaps more experienced TES players would care to chime in about EtW?

jrp
02-19-2009, 02:58 PM
The effectiveness of ETW depends on the matchup. Some blue-based decks, like Team America, for example, have no realistic way to beat a resolved empty for more than 8 goblins at really any point in the game, short of already having a Tombstalker on board. Matchups like Team America, where your resources will be strained, are precisely the type of matches where you will sometimes have to go for ETW due to mana/hand size or in situations where you cannot use IGG. Other matchups where your opponent will have tons of dead sweepers game 1 (Landstill:Deed, EE, C//P, Wrath, etc) are the matches where EtW is a risky move that should be used if it is your only possible path to victory. EtW will rarely be relevant in non-blue matches, becuase if you resolved Burning Wish, you're more than likely to be able to loop IGG into the immediate win anyway.

@Shusher - I've never really liked the card. I'd rather just board in 5-6 blasts and hope for the best against Counterbalance decks.

Arsenal
02-19-2009, 03:06 PM
That is sorta what I found with EtW; subpar in most matchups and situations, and only "good" in a select few. Although, I suppose it's effectiveness varies depending on game 1 vs. game 2/3, no?

SuperBean
02-20-2009, 01:06 AM
I find that Empty the Warrens is very useful against most control match ups... Especially before pre-boarding, it gives you a kill that you don't have to D-Returns, ADN, or go to 10 spell count to kill with. Something that you may have to wait for, versus using whats in your hand to get to 5 or 6 spell count and put your opponent on a 2 turn clock where most control decks especially in the beginning are slow and quite frankly can't deal with 10-12 goblins very easily.

I'm also considering putting 1 Grim Tutor in the deck, so it would be -1 Infernal Tutor +1 Grim Tutor. I've been doing quite a bit of play testing with it on MWS and it's proved to be useful to get you a spell that you don't happen to have in your hand like Infernal Tutor requires.

GoldenCid
02-20-2009, 07:05 AM
I saw the last modifications in the Cook's first page list i got surprised:

1- He cut the copies of duress to 2 between main deck and side, i supposed that the utility of this cards was greater to run at least 3x.
2- He included xantid swarm in the SB in addition to the 4x Orim's chant and 2 vexing shusher and decreased de copies of pyroblast...why?
3- Wipe away was added to SB is this due to chalice @1 or MUC/counterbalance match ups?
4- The additonal copy of forbiden orchard is healthy vs glimervoid or undiscovered paradise??

Finally..is this list a "metagame list"? or it is tending to be a "tuned goblal list"??

Bryant Cook
02-20-2009, 10:37 AM
I saw the last modifications in the Cook's first page list i got surprised:

1- He cut the copies of duress to 2 between main deck and side, i supposed that the utility of this cards was greater to run at least 3x.
2- He included xantid swarm in the SB in addition to the 4x Orim's chant and 2 vexing shusher and decreased de copies of pyroblast...why?
3- Wipe away was added to SB is this due to chalice @1 or MUC/counterbalance match ups?
4- The additonal copy of forbiden orchard is healthy vs glimervoid or undiscovered paradise??

Finally..is this list a "metagame list"? or it is tending to be a "tuned goblal list"??
You're looking at an old list. My current list looks nothing like that.

Arsenal
02-20-2009, 10:39 AM
I find that Empty the Warrens is very useful against most control match ups... Especially before pre-boarding, it gives you a kill that you don't have to D-Returns, ADN, or go to 10 spell count to kill with. Something that you may have to wait for, versus using whats in your hand to get to 5 or 6 spell count and put your opponent on a 2 turn clock where most control decks especially in the beginning are slow and quite frankly can't deal with 10-12 goblins very easily.

I'm also considering putting 1 Grim Tutor in the deck, so it would be -1 Infernal Tutor +1 Grim Tutor. I've been doing quite a bit of play testing with it on MWS and it's proved to be useful to get you a spell that you don't happen to have in your hand like Infernal Tutor requires.

In the scenario you presented, I'm assumming you're talking about EtW on turn 1/turn 2? If it's anytime after that, I don't feel comfortable as three turns is an awful long time to let them dig/draw/tutor into an answer.

Joe_C
02-20-2009, 12:28 PM
with merfolk becoming a DTB. How should our board look like?

Presently mine is:

4 Pyroblast
3 Shattering Spree
2 Duress(2 maindeck)
1 Ill- Gotten gains
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Wipe Away


Has anyone even used wipe away? Everytime I board it in it seems like getting to 1:u: :u: just isnt happening fast enough. Other options?

Dark_Cynic87
02-20-2009, 12:54 PM
On Grim Tutor: I think it's a waste of space, not to mention the obvious dissynergy with Ad Nauseam both in the cmc and in function, losing you 3 life both ways or 6 in the worst case scenario. Also, I think you may have some problems comboing off with it because of it's awkward cmc.

Pce,

--DC

SuperBean
02-20-2009, 02:38 PM
Well, that idea of running Grim Tutor would be to get to ADN quicker, or potentially get to ADN. Through testing it seems beneficial, I just need to find one at a reasonable price..

Dark_Cynic87
02-20-2009, 02:57 PM
As a one-of though? it would make more sense to me to just run another Ad Nauseam, or with your logic of saying use it to get AdN, more Mystical Tutors. Grim Tutor just isn't good enough.

Pce,

--DC

GoldenCid
02-20-2009, 04:16 PM
You're looking at an old list. My current list looks nothing like that.


And....your actual list is...??

Bryant Cook
02-20-2009, 04:38 PM
My current list is private. I won't be releasing it until after the GP.

Ciberon
02-20-2009, 05:20 PM
Looking forward to see it. It's really hard to make the storm count without the Ad Nauseam on the posted build.

SuperBean
02-21-2009, 05:11 AM
The list that is "released" now uses ADN..

Phoenix Ignition
02-21-2009, 05:38 AM
The list that is "released" now uses ADN..

I'm pretty sure he means that the deck right now is too reliant on AdN to win. As in, before AdN was released this deck did a very good job getting storm without it, but with AdN in the deck it takes away from the other strategies of getting storm.

ParkerLewis
02-21-2009, 05:39 AM
Looking forward to see it. It's really hard to make the storm count without the Ad Nauseam on the posted build.

it's difficult to learn how to maximize your chances, certainly. But once you've learned, it's quite consistently doing so. Even on a pre-AdN list.

SuperBean
02-21-2009, 05:52 AM
Agreed, even pre-ADN the deck still had many ways of making storm, you just had to take the time to learn how.

ADN just made the deck better, and makes storm count easier to achieve.

Jeff Kruchkow
02-21-2009, 02:20 PM
Looking forward to see it. It's really hard to make the storm count without the Ad Nauseam on the posted build.

I really don't see how. You still have IGG tricks and D. Returns even without AdN. AdN just replaced the D4s as the CA engine of choice.

fearphage
02-22-2009, 03:50 AM
I'm pretty sure he means that the deck right now is too reliant on AdN to winFor my purposes, Ad Nauseam replaced Diminishing Returns as a 1-of. I don't see why you would/should rely on it. It is good but having more than 1 is scary. I like flipping cards when I'm at 5 life with confidence. 1 more card can make the difference some times. I just got 2nd (first loser) in the GPT Chicago yesterday losing to CBT in the final. I mulliganed to 5 for the first time in the tournament and still had a suboptimal hand but good enough if i drew a land. It just got worse from there. Back to my point, I fetch AdN about 1 in 10 times. I generally just play it safe with the single Ill-Gotten Gains loop and tendrils is the 10th spell. If you can cast Infernal Tutor after IGG, then you only 6 spells before it. If you can cast IGG as the 6th spell and a tutor in the graveyard, you've won. Going back a spell: if you can tutor for IGG as your 5th spell, you've won. In some cases if you can produce absurd amounts of mana, you can go Infernal Tutor -> IT -> IT -> Tendrils to get in those last few spells. I personally don't understand the dependence on AdN. It is a great spell but it is just a better diminishing returns in my eyes and should be played that way. Am i the only one using Ad Nauseam as a tool instead of a crutch/centerpiece?

More about my almost win:
Goblins (x2): 2-0 (my only loss was because i didn't de-sideboard from the previous match) [games 4-1]
Enchantress: Draw [games 1-1-1]
Monoblack control: 1-1 (same guy, lost in swiss, beat on 1st and 2nd turns in top8. this is the only time i used AdN in the tournament and only for one of the games. maindeck thoughtseize, duress, sinkhole, hymn, specter) [games 2-2]
Solidarity: 1-0 [games 2-0]
Welder survival: 1-0 [games 2-0]
Counterbalance-Top: 0-1 (finals, my luck ran out. game 1 i didn't miss a land drop. game 2 i mull to 5 for the first time and have a __if i draw card X, i win__ hand. i get that one card and combo for 14 tokens and he topdecks Engineered Explosives. C'est la vie.) [games 0-2]
[Side note: On the way home I realize that my parents are flying into town the weekend of the GP so I wouldn't have been able to go if I had won.]

Deck list:
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Mystical Tutor (used once all tournament)

4 Orim's Chant
2 Duress

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Simian Spirit Guide (fewer to maximize Ad Nauseam)

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Forbidden Orchard (tokens never got close to killing me)
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard (completely not ready for prime time. haven't played legacy against real players over 6+ months):
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam (I have been burning wishing for this for a long time. It stopped during the tournament. Ability_to_read--; That's what I get for only playing with casual legacy players.)
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pact of Negation
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree (untouched
1 Hull Breach (will be tranquility/cleanfall more than likely)
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Echoing Truth (wanted Rushing River but couldn't acquire it)
1 Duress

I won and/or combo'd for tokens on turns 1-3 over 80% of the time. Some of the times where I didn't, I was being overly safe and waiting until I had to win (goblins). My notes look like 5 turn 1s of my 17 games.

Jeff Kruchkow
02-23-2009, 03:29 PM
Silence
Instant W
Your Opponents can't play spells this turn

Thoughts?

Bryant Cook
02-23-2009, 03:34 PM
Silence
Instant W
Your Opponents can't play spells this turn

Thoughts?

If counterbalance and Xantid Swarm ever go away. Sure.

GreenOne
02-23-2009, 03:37 PM
Silence
Instant W
Your Opponents can't play spells this turn

Thoughts?

It's not play, it's cast. Really:

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/features/27a_silence_9ljam.jpg

It's an orim's chant that's worse against aggro and slightly better against some form of control: it doesn't target so it's better against runed halo, true believer, etc.

I don't believe the deck needs orim 5-8, unless your meta features 0 counterbalance and other permanent based hate. If it's so you can have 4 additional orims in the SB in place of Blasts.

andrew77
02-24-2009, 01:53 AM
My current list is private. I won't be releasing it until after the GP.

Maybe its too much to ask, but will you be playing maindeck mystical tutors at the GP?

Jeff Kruchkow
02-24-2009, 02:04 AM
True its a worse chant, but there is something to be said for diversifying your protection. If they try and Mage Chant you still have 2 more if you split this and chant 2/2

BreathWeapon
02-24-2009, 11:36 AM
Silence more or less replaces Xantid Swarm, I'd rather have more imprintable W sources than imprintable G sources, and Silence is immune to odd removal like Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives etc. Splitting Orim's Chant and Silence vs Meddling Mage is also a pretty good point, since Orim's Chant is usually Meddling Mage's number 1 target.

It's not the end all be all, but I'd say it's a welcome contribution.

GoldenCid
02-24-2009, 02:40 PM
Silence more or less replaces Xantid Swarm

I don't get one thing...in sb we already run pyroblast/ red elemental blast and or shusher is xantid swarm really needed with this card?? Would you prefer xantid / silence instead shusher or pyro / REB??

Dark_Cynic87
02-24-2009, 03:21 PM
I don't get one thing...in sb we already run pyroblast/ red elemental blast and or shusher is xantid swarm really needed with this card?? Would you prefer xantid / silence instead shusher or pyro / REB??

Swarm does Jack against CB, and neither does Silence.

Pce,

--DC

Giles
02-24-2009, 03:48 PM
If Orim's Chant did not have kicker, Silence would be better.
However it does.

GoldenCid
02-24-2009, 05:46 PM
Swarm does Jack against CB, and neither does Silence.

Pce,

--DC

So what do you cut in your SB for swarm? Shusher, pyroblast?

BreathWeapon
02-24-2009, 05:53 PM
The Kicker on Orim's Chant doesn't make it better than Silence, personally I never use the Kicker, while not targeting the opponent is kind of awesome because it circumvents some hate like Runed Halo, True Believer and funky shit like Misdirection and Divert.

@Above poster

You use Pyroblast in metas with Counterbalance, if tempo decks are more common than Counterbalance decks then you adjust your disruption to suit. I think a MD split of 3 Orim's Chant and 3 Silence in Bryant's list would be fairly solid, considering 2xDuress isn't really addressing Counterbalance anyway.

evilchen
02-25-2009, 03:26 AM
i've allways liked the ability from chant to say : "no you dont attack to kill me this turn" vs big stompy/aggro decks!

BreathWeapon
02-25-2009, 05:41 AM
i've allways liked the ability from chant to say : "no you dont attack to kill me this turn" vs big stompy/aggro decks!

It's nice but it's unnecessary, splitting Orim's Chant and Silence gives you redundancy vs Meddling Mage, and it's just more practical to address hate than it is to address aggro - which you steam roll any way. Besides, it's only 1 less Orim's Chant, so I doubt you'd even notice.

MD 3 Orim's Chant and 3 Silence, SB 4 Pyroblast just seems really strong.

Note: For anybody still playing around with my list, I've come to the conclusion discard and Red blasts are terrible together, so I've cut Red blasts for Cabal Therapy. Cabal Therapy has been fairly strong, because it either nails Counterbalance or multiple Stifles/Spellsnares and makes them actually cast Force of Will and Counterspell if they have multiples. The best part tho' is that Tinder Wall turns Cabal Therapy into a pseudo Orim's Chant for the Ill Gotten Gains win if the game goes long, so you can win at 1 life off of Burning Wish if you happen to have an Infernal Tutor and Cabal Therapy in your graveyard.

evilchen
02-25-2009, 07:50 AM
.. which you steam roll any way...


Well iam playing TES for 2-3 weeks now and after some tests vs the 10 Land Stompy i've bitterly needed this option to say "No attack this turn" because he was steam rolling me :/!

GreenOne
02-25-2009, 08:17 AM
Well iam playing TES for 2-3 weeks now and after some tests vs the 10 Land Stompy i've bitterly needed this option to say "No attack this turn" because he was steam rolling me :/!
I never had problems with aggro, doesn't matter how fast as long as it wasn't disruptive.
They have a turn 3-4 deck, we have a turn 1-3 deck, that's it.

evilchen
02-25-2009, 10:54 AM
Yeah but first turn amethyst slowed me little for example :/!
And then second turn -9 and third would be my save death without chant!

Btw iam not saying silence is bad, i just like Orims kicker !

GoldenCid
03-03-2009, 11:10 AM
Last saturday i got a 3rd place in 20+ players tournament. My pairings:

Road to the top 8

Round 1: Monogreen: 2-0. 1-0-0
Round 2: Elves aggro: 1-0. 2-0-0
Round 3: Monoblack: 1-2. 2-1-0
Round 4: Burn: 2-0. 3-1-0

Top 8

Quarterfinal: Tarmoburn: 2-0. 4-1-0
Semifinal: Rock: 1-2. 4-2-0
3rd place: Drop. 5-2-0

In general i think that i was lucky with the match ups...

My list for discussion:

Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Spells
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [B] Dark Ritual
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
3 [US] Duress
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [MI] Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm


I think that SB needs more help than de maindeck.

BreathWeapon
03-03-2009, 11:23 AM
Is there a reason you guys are cutting a Ponder for a removal spell when you're only running 2 Mystical Tutor? I mean Brainstorm/Pondering into Ad Nauseam is arguably one of the strongest plays Storm has, and it just seems like you're sacrificing consistency for the sake of running a card you really shouldn't need MD any way.

Bryant Cook
03-03-2009, 11:22 PM
Is there a reason you guys are cutting a Ponder for a removal spell when you're only running 2 Mystical Tutor? I mean Brainstorm/Pondering into Ad Nauseam is arguably one of the strongest plays Storm has, and it just seems like you're sacrificing consistency for the sake of running a card you really shouldn't need MD any way.

Running a bounce spell is perfectly acceptable. Opponents play cards that are bad for us after all.

Pinder
03-03-2009, 11:26 PM
Running a bounce spell is perfectly acceptable. Opponents play cards that are bad for us after all.

And while we're at it, when Chain of Vapor isn't bouncing things that are bad for you (and sometimes even when it is), it's crazy good at generating Storm via Moxen/LED bouncing while you're going off. A single blue has sometimes netted me 5 or more storm count (not to mention the fact that you can sac a tapped land to bounce a tapped mox to play the mox again untapped to net mana, too).

Chain of Vapor is just good here.

Piceli89
03-04-2009, 07:55 PM
Hi all TESers,
I'm pretty beginning to evaluate if this deck can be a good choice as a combo deck to be played, and i'm testing it. I've already talked with GreenOne about it, and he has explained consistently which are its strengths and its weaknesses. however, there's the "usual " thing which preserves me from completely trusting this deck: the fact that it can't really fight a counterbalance once it has been settled, and its complete ( i guess) autoloss to cb+top lock (well, i guess that's all storm -combo based decks nemesis).
So i wanted to ask a peculiar question to the experts ( and in particular to its creator): have you ever met times when you were compelled to face a quick cb+top lock GAME 1? what did you do, and , possibly, are there any way(s) to get out of that fucking situation? Is there any magical trick to escape the well? And most of all, has evr one of you managed to go off from there?
In comparison, FT lists sometimes play a MD grip at least, which can allow them to survive somehow.. while here the only thing i see is chain of vapor ,and it's pretty risky since cb+top decks usually have the major percentage of casting drops focused on 1, ofc.
I know you could barely answer me with " go off before they drop balance", but i found this to be almost impossible, considering you usually want to assemble some pieces of protections/combo in hand and so, often, want to sculpt and manipulate a minimum of turns. Ah, and they also have daze, force, ecc, so you can exactly act the "all in" way on turn1 unproctected.. ou draw the god hand, or you just have to wait. And every turn you give 'em seems to be another heartstroke fearing that counterbalance will come down.
Duress btw doesn't always work, the fucking magical trick " duress you, in resp i brainstorm and hide my blue hosers" is more common than what i thought.
At this point, performing in a heavy blue-based deck, i'm asking myself: could MD pyroblasts be a good choice, instead of-maybe-duresses? At the end this deck can just push it over and steamroll non blue (well, if it doesn't begin to draw shitty things..) lists, and eventually pyroblasts could be thrown randomly increasing the storm count. I know it's antisynergic with the IGG loom but hey, i guess we can't have everything easy..
You could also answer me "bring another deck to your meta", but i like it the hard way.
Another thing: i'd like to know, if possible, what do ya think about the MatchUp %s against Dreadstill, Threshold with CB and Landstill with the new Cook's list? Seems we're pretty low here..
I repeat, the deck kinda charms me, but the "crew" decks of Legacy-which do you expect with higher probability to make top8 and to meet if you're going well in tourneys-are, most of the tmes, packing blue, and i usually don't get paired against NourishingLich or ElfBall..

EDIT: against cb thresh, what usually should be cut out to make room for the sb pyroblasts? i usually cut 2 ponders , but i fell the necessity to run at least 3 pyros, if not 4.. but really can't understand what should be sided out without losing combo consistency.