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Piceli89
05-26-2009, 04:44 AM
Also, ANT is mystical tutor centric and uses only AdN (and sometimes DD) as a win con. Most FT lists use DD as the win-con and the side in AdN if need be.

They use also IGG loops, so their Kill cons are: AN, IGG (for normal ANT verions), and these + DDay for the Hybrids. Their only Kill spell Maindeck is Tendrils, which may hurt them having some problems with Meddling Mage or Runed Halo. An advantage of TES is that it runs 3 different Kill cons in the form of Tendrils, EtW and Grapeshot, so it's surely more easier to go off through the so called "hate bears" (except Canonist, which, of course, must die).

lordofthepit
05-26-2009, 05:34 AM
Thanks for the response.

That begs the question--why play one over the other? Which matchups would ANT be better against? Which matchups would TES be better against?

Piceli89
05-26-2009, 05:49 AM
Thanks for the response.

That begs the question--why play one over the other? Which matchups would ANT be better against? Which matchups would TES be better against?

This is a hard question. I think TES is way more better against Non-blue decks, even the one packing hate because of its flexibility ( given by Burning Wish), and can face multiple situations of hate; on the contrary, ANT ( and in particular, the hybrid packing DDay) is more suited to perform against Blue decks. DDay can even perform well under a CounterTop lock. Note that this definition is , in any case, very relative, since there are situations where TES can perform better (thanks, especially, to the presence of Pyroblasts SB, which ANT generally doesn't pack) against Blue and situations where it sucks.
The greatest lack of TES, imo, is that bit of inconsistency in its draws ( due to having a low count of lands, and a 4-colour nature) which makes it less "reliable" to the eyes of the people than how ANT , with its only 2-3 colours, a greater amount of shuffling effects and a "beautiful" manabase, seems to be.

jjjoness'
05-26-2009, 05:49 AM
An advantage of TES is that it runs 3 different Kill cons in the form of Tendrils, EtW and Grapeshot, so it's surely more easier to go off through the so called "hate bears" (except Canonist, which, of course, must die).

Which is only true for straight ANT, but not for the Dday Hybrid. With Doomsday you can combo through hate bears even easier than TES can. (a single Slaughter Pact/Bounce is usualy enough) Postboard you also have Helm of Awakening + Top + Grapeshot as an alternate wincondition which allows you to combo through Canonist (though it's unlikely to have Helm + 2x Tops online)

edit: I think the choice between TES and ANT/DDay is a meta question as well as a question of your playing style. TES is way more explosive, but lacks a bit of consistency.

Piceli89
05-26-2009, 06:05 AM
Which is only true for straight ANT, but not for the Dday Hybrid. With Doomsday you can combo through hate bears even easier than TES can. (a single Slaughter Pact/Bounce is usualy enough) Postboard you also have Helm of Awakening + Top + Grapeshot as an alternate wincondition which allows you to combo through Canonist (though it's unlikely to have Helm + 2x Tops online)


This is true, i apologize for not having mentioned the Freeze/shot postboard alt-kill. But TES can get rid of (multiple) hate bears even from g1 thanks to 4 Burning Wish which can grab Grapeshot, Pyroclasm, ecc, plus a Chain of Vapor, while DDay relies generally only on a single bounce spell maindeck (Wipe Away). And yes, i can swear you there are still people running MMage or Gaddock MD

Jeff Kruchkow
05-26-2009, 01:24 PM
@Piceli: Ive actually seen several versions of ANT begin to drop IT and LEDs more often of late losing them the IGG option.

@LordofthePit: I have no idea why people continue to play ANT over TES. Ive tested and all Ive found is that its much slower. Consistentcy really has never been an issue for me and honestly, if your are looking for a deck that never gets draw screwed, combo probably isnt the right deck.

@jjjoness:I don't see how doomsday deals with cannonist that turn. And going DD -> go really doesnt seem thats sound. Also, I dont see how killing a hate bear is easier than just winning. Finally, what deck can you actually get Helm, Top, Top going against?

Bryant Cook
05-26-2009, 01:42 PM
After doing some testing of things people suggested (cutting IGG for Infernal), I decided it wasn't in my list's best interest. Infernal for a 2nd LED, and having Burning Wish does come up. I'd like IGG in the sideboard, however, I'm not against people cutting it. I'll be honest, it's a safety net - I prefer not to break my legs in case I fall.

I liked being able to Burning Wish for Ad Nauseum (Infernal sideboard) though. My current (I use this loosely, my lists are always changing) list is only playing 1x ETW sideboard instead of 2x (Formerly the Vindicate slot). I'm playing this sideboard...

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:4 Pyroblast
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:3 Shattering Spree

SuperBean
05-26-2009, 02:14 PM
I'm really glad to see this thread up and running again, I'm always testing new things and trying to make my list better especially with the Boston 5K Open on it's way.

Here is the list I've played for the last two weeks for our weekly Legacy Tournaments:

Lands:
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Dark Ritual
2x Ad Nauseam
2x Orim's Chant
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Chain of Vapor

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
2x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
1x Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox

Sideboard:
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tendril's of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Krosan Grip
1x Rushing River
1x Maelstom Pulse
1x Tropical Island

My list has without a doubt moved more towards an ANT list that uses Burning Wish. But I can't deny the amount of consistency the deck has using 14 lands.

The only thing I'd like to try and do is move a Thoughtseize into the sideboard as a wish target.. But I'm not to sure what to remove.

Piceli89
05-26-2009, 02:14 PM
After doing some testing of things people suggested (cutting IGG for Infernal), I decided it wasn't in my list's best interest. Infernal for a 2nd LED, and having Burning Wish does come up. I'd like IGG in the sideboard, however, I'm not against people cutting it. I'll be honest, it's a safety net - I prefer not to break my legs in case I fall.

I liked being able to Burning Wish for Ad Nauseum (Infernal sideboard) though. My current (I use this loosely, my lists are always changing) list is only playing 1x ETW sideboard instead of 2x (Formerly the Vindicate slot). I'm playing this sideboard...

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:4 Pyroblast
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:3 Shattering Spree

Echoing truth is there to be sided against Counterbalance decks (since you lack Vindicate now), in order to fall slightly more away from its curve? And how's going with 3 Useas for the Sprees? I think you might have some problems optimizing it. Have you tried a Meltdown/Hurkyl's Recall, or even to make -1 USea +1 Volcanic ? Not having access to the white/red combination when you're going off can hurt.

SuperBean
05-26-2009, 02:20 PM
That was honestly my issue with running 5-Color Lands + Dual Lands, it sucked when I was not able to cast things when I needed to.

Piceli89
05-26-2009, 02:30 PM
That was honestly my issue with running 5-Color Lands + Dual Lands, it sucked when I was not able to cast things when I needed to.

Actually, the latest lists of TES we're all playing have cut green. We all agree Pyroblast is way more better than Xantid against blue decks because of the posibility to destroy counterbalance, and that Krosan grip doesn't belong to this deck. We're down to 4 colors, therefore. And a colour only nets 4 cards (white,obv); so, it's not really that difficult to pack few Duals, and even fetches ( always few ones, ofc).

Bryant Cook
05-26-2009, 02:31 PM
Echoing truth is there to be sided against Counterbalance decks (since you lack Vindicate now), in order to fall slightly more away from its curve? And how's going with 3 Useas for the Sprees? I think you might have some problems optimizing it. Have you tried a Meltdown/Hurkyl's Recall, or even to make -1 USea +1 Volcanic ? Not having access to the white/red combination when you're going off can hurt.

I refuse to play meltdwown. It destroys us also, reasons are stated above. I'm open to Hurkyl's, but haven't had time to test it (someone else mentioned it).

I've thought about the one Volcanic. But I'm not sure if it's worth it with 8 red cards maindeck. But...there are 10 cards in the sideboard.

Piceli89
05-26-2009, 02:37 PM
I refuse to play meltdown. It destroys us also, reasons are stated above. I'm open to Hurkyl's, but haven't had time to test it (someone else mentioned it).

I've thought about the one Volcanic. But I'm not sure if it's worth it with 8 red cards maindeck. But...there are 10 cards in the sideboard.

Exactly. And you know Shattering Spree is one of the most powerful tools we have against Artifacts-Lock.dec. Ok for meltdown, but i tested in a couple of matches Hurkyl's Recall (which I suggested) against DStompy and it was nutty. Of course a player knowing he's fighting combo won't set chalice @2, but it's way more probable he'll do it at o or at 1. Which makes Recall a very interesting choice, considering it does everything in one hit ,it's cheaper than rebuild and it's instant.

SuperBean
05-26-2009, 03:28 PM
Agreed - Hurkyl's Recall is such a champ against Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy and Stax variants.

1maarten1
05-27-2009, 05:22 AM
Im thinking of starting to play with tes, but is it still possible to run AdN and just the rainbow lands? or are the duals a must-have right now??

~Maarten

Jeff Kruchkow
05-27-2009, 11:14 AM
Im thinking of starting to play with tes, but is it still possible to run AdN and just the rainbow lands? or are the duals a must-have right now??

~Maarten

Preference. I still run all rainbow lands in my build because I don't want to get color screwed.

1maarten1
05-27-2009, 12:11 PM
Preference. I still run all rainbow lands in my build because I don't want to get color screwed.

Okay :smile: And you run Byrant's list??? Could you post your list please :tongue:

thanks

Jeff Kruchkow
05-27-2009, 03:07 PM
Okay :smile: And you run Byrant's list??? Could you post your list please :tongue:

thanks

Currently I'm playing around with this, stuff is subject to change though (I might test the Infernal Side)
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [CH] City of Brass
3 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
// Spells
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [FNM] Duress
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [FNM] Duress
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [US] Meltdown

Piceli89
05-27-2009, 03:28 PM
Currently I'm playing around with this, stuff is subject to change though (I might test the Infernal Side)
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [CH] City of Brass
3 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
// Spells
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [FNM] Duress
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [FNM] Duress
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [US] Meltdown

Jeff, have you had problems with all those Forbidden Orchards? They hurt you very much when you don't manage/ can't afford to go off turn 1-2 (against blue decks for example), and those life points you "give" the opponent with the Spirits might matter a lor for Nauseam. Have you tried something else? perhaps few duals are acceptable, you could play decents lands entirely without losing that much color affidability.

1maarten1
05-28-2009, 04:39 AM
Whats the whole reasoning behind the duals over rainbow lands?? Jeff: why would u replace 2 orchards with 2 undiscovered paradise??

~Maarten

evilchen
05-28-2009, 05:09 AM
Yesterday i got my U-Sea and iam happy now to kick out Forbidden Ochad.. those Spirits were really messy..( cant understand how someone plays 3 :P )
For info iam playing
10 Lands:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 U-sea

looks comfortable for me but iam going to test it on some tournaments the next month and will see how comfortable it really is.

Pelikanudo
05-28-2009, 09:08 AM
I'm starting to play with 1 A.N which definately is the correct approach, also putting in the 4 mystical give us the full puzzle, also putting out cabal ritual is ok, becuase playing only 3 high costs(not 2nd A.N), this will reduce our average mana cost
:
Lands:
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of b
2x U.Paradise
//10

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Dark Ritual
4x Orim's Chant
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Ad Nauseam // definately 1 is the key + 4 mystical
//18

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
3x Duress // 1 for burning
3x Infernal Tutor // 1 for burning
4x Ponder
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x IGG
//21

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox

//12


SIDE :
at least 1 duress 1 infernal tutor

What do you think boys , and you Bryant .C.?

evilchen
05-28-2009, 09:37 AM
I think i would be too afraid a random Thoughtseize or Duress etc. will hit my only AdN which i have in my starthand and cant use because i lost the dice roll.. or any scenario like that!

I feel better if i have at least the possibility to look for a second one with that Mystical Tutors.

Bryant Cook
05-28-2009, 12:17 PM
As stated above, one Ad Nauseum just doesn't cut it. It's a storm engine that's great to draw, unlike Igg. You don't want it discarded or countered then not have another. I believe two is the best number you can play.

Jeff Kruchkow
05-28-2009, 12:32 PM
Jeff, have you had problems with all those Forbidden Orchards? They hurt you very much when you don't manage/ can't afford to go off turn 1-2 (against blue decks for example), and those life points you "give" the opponent with the Spirits might matter a lor for Nauseam. Have you tried something else? perhaps few duals are acceptable, you could play decents lands entirely without losing that much color affidability.

Well for one, I don'town any duals. And yes the orchards do hurt but honestly I hate Undiscovered Paradise so much I won't run it. And I have tested duals, I would try and run them if I had them. Also, i run a very speed centric version so even when I play blue decks, I try and go for a belcher approach and go for the win after a protection spell (I have 12 post board, I should usually start with one)

@1maarten1: The reasoning behind duals is that they have no drawback unlike all the gold lands. Also, I have tried U. Paradise and its screwed me so much I would rather deal with spirit damage. And above that, I would rather run some duals when I get some, not that you can't run all gold lands, they just hurt a good deal.

kicks_422
05-31-2009, 08:56 AM
Me and friend talked before about using this SB for TES:

4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
3 Empty the Warrens (1 in the MD)
1 Duress (3 in the MD)
1 Vindicate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

The rest of the SB is still up in the air, but the crucial thing about is the 4 EtW between the MD and SB. I haven't tested it yet much yet (and I don't know if my friend already has), but the basic premise is that against CounterTop decks, board in 4 Pyroblasts and 2 more EtW (for 3 in the MD, and 1 in the SB) for the 1 IGG, 1 Chrome Mox, and Ponders - and just go for the EtW rush early. The notion is that most CounterTop decks (aside from ITF, which has Deed MD), have no answers to an early token assault aside from potentially 1-2 Engineered Explosives.

Is this a plan worth pursuing?

GreenOne
05-31-2009, 09:36 AM
Me and friend talked before about using this SB for TES:

4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
3 Empty the Warrens (1 in the MD)
1 Duress (3 in the MD)
1 Vindicate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

The rest of the SB is still up in the air, but the crucial thing about is the 4 EtW between the MD and SB. I haven't tested it yet much yet (and I don't know if my friend already has), but the basic premise is that against CounterTop decks, board in 4 Pyroblasts and 2 more EtW (for 3 in the MD, and 1 in the SB) for the 1 IGG, 1 Chrome Mox, and Ponders - and just go for the EtW rush early. The notion is that most CounterTop decks (aside from ITF, which has Deed MD), have no answers to an early token assault aside from potentially 1-2 Engineered Explosives.

Is this a plan worth pursuing?
That SB sucks: you absolutely need the Diminishing Returns and Grapeshot.

I tried for quite some time the ETW route against conterbalance and it's quite good, depending on what your opponent is SBing, and how much he does know you. It usually works wonders G2, but G3 more plagues / Pyroclasms / Propas come in.
Be careful when going the AN route, your deck post SB has a slightly higher average cmc.

I'd never side out ponders, I'd go with something like -1 Mox, -1 IGG, -1 IT, -1 Tendrils/AN, -X Brainstorm.

Pulp_Fiction
05-31-2009, 02:25 PM
@kicks: I tried something very similar in the SB before and found out it wasn't so hot in my meta. It makes you vulnerable to Stifle a hell of a lot more and EE and Pyroclasm really fuck you up. This is what I would play if you wanted to use your plan against blue:

1x DReturns
1x Grapeshot
1x IGG
1x Tendrils
1x Shattering Spree
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Pyroblast
2x Slaughter Pact (Teeg is problem in my meta)
1x meta wish slot

Since you said 1 EtW is main I would personally board out 2x Ad Nauseam and stick in 2x EtW. I almost never want to cast AdN before turn 5-6 depending on how well you setup and late in the game its a dead draw. I guess my logic is, at any point in the game I would not be dissappointed seeing EtW where-as AdN will suck mid-late game and you are essentially going all in if you can't find adequate protection spells very early on.

Tosh
05-31-2009, 07:16 PM
Small Tourney report:
I t8'd at the small (18 person) legacy side event at GP Seattle with TES. Only major differences in my list is that I took out Chants for +1 Duress and +3 Spell Snare (Reason: counterspells are pretty easy to get through... Counterbalance is not).
I played against: Burn: 2-1; ITF 1-2 (one loss was from a game loss for deck list); UWB landstill 1-2 (play mistakes ftl); BW Discard 2-1; Burn 2-1.
I lost in t8 to a friend playing ATS due to a major play mistake.

Bryant Cook
05-31-2009, 08:01 PM
I came in 10th in a 132 person event. If you're interested...Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=349043#post349043).

kicks_422
05-31-2009, 08:24 PM
That SB sucks: you absolutely need the Diminishing Returns and Grapeshot.

I've never been lucky with Diminishing Returns. It's a personal choice, more than anything. :tongue: And like I said, the only thing set in stone would be the Pyroblasts and extra EtW's.


Be careful when going the AN route, your deck post SB has a slightly higher average cmc.

Not really. With the SB plan I proposed, I only add a total of 4 to the total cc of the deck. With your SB plan, the total cc is actually less.

GreenOne
05-31-2009, 09:05 PM
I came in 10th in a 132 person event. If you're interested...Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=349043#post349043).
Seems like Pyroblasts were great all day, except against CB. How ironic.
However, Xantid would have been really worse, with all those AN played in the draw step.

Here are a few questions about the SB strategy:
1. Against Ichorid -4 Orim's Chant, -3 Duress, +4 Pyroblast, +2 Shattering Spree, +1 Echoing Truth. Aren't orim chants supposed to be good? Don't have LED Ichorid in my testing gauntlet, but against the LEDless one a single chant usually buys enough time to win.

2. General SB against blue: -1 Orim's Chant, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Brainstorm, -1 Chain of Vapor, +4 Pyroblast. I don't get the -1 Orim's Chant: it's supposed to be the best card at least against non-CB decks. I'm almost always siding out IGG (usually for ETW), cause recurring counters doesn't seem good on paper. Amidoinitrong?

3. SB slots: Just a single use of Hurkyl's recall, and against Goblins. Is it really worth the slot? If I read it right it's also zero times that you wished for IT. Same question. Also, I happen to go the ETW route much more (well, you never played it), I suspect there's something suspect in this.

Bryant Cook
05-31-2009, 09:21 PM
Seems like Pyroblasts were great all day, except against CB. How ironic.
However, Xantid would have been really worse, with all those AN played in the draw step. Well I didn't draw them versus Counterbalance...


Here are a few questions about the SB strategy:
1. Against Ichorid -4 Orim's Chant, -3 Duress, +4 Pyroblast, +2 Shattering Spree, +1 Echoing Truth. Aren't orim chants supposed to be good? Don't have LED Ichorid in my testing gauntlet, but against the LEDless one a single chant usually buys enough time to win. I'm aware that you can use Chant to timewalk but I'd rather have a possible counterspell for Breaththrough or Deep Analysis. That will buy you more time than one Orim's Chant. Plus, Pyroblast pitches a lot better on Chrome Mox. This is important for Shattering Spree if they're packing Chalice.


2. General SB against blue: -1 Orim's Chant, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Brainstorm, -1 Chain of Vapor, +4 Pyroblast. I don't get the -1 Orim's Chant: it's supposed to be the best card at least against non-CB decks. I'm almost always siding out IGG (usually for ETW), cause recurring counters doesn't seem good on paper. Amidoinitrong? Orim's Chant can be bad in multiples postboard when you have 11 protection spells. You only need one to resolve where Pyroblast can deal with more things than Chant. It's only one card, if you need Orim's Chant you can always just Mystical Tutor for one. I don't side out Ill-Gotten Gains, I'm against siding out storm engines. I've done it before then lost because situations come up where you need it.


3. SB slots: Just a single use of Hurkyl's recall, and against Goblins. Is it really worth the slot? If I read it right it's also zero times that you wished for IT. Same question. Also, I happen to go the ETW route much more (well, you never played it), I suspect there's something suspect in this. Yes, it's worth the slot. This was just one event, I didn't play versus anything with heavy artifacts. Like Stompy Variants/Stax/affinity there was a decent number of affinity players there. I didn't ever need to wish for Infernal? I tried out the ETW package again and I didn't like it. The deck isn't meant to play like Belcher where you flop out your hand on the table turn one and if they have EE you lose. I'm not a fan of losing to a mind twist for 2 colorless.

GreenOne
05-31-2009, 10:29 PM
Orim's Chant can be bad in multiples postboard when you have 11 protection spells. You only need one to resolve where Pyroblast can deal with more things than Chant. It's only one card, if you need Orim's Chant you can always just Mystical Tutor for one. I don't side out Ill-Gotten Gains, I'm against siding out storm engines. I've done it before then lost because situations come up where you need it.
Following this reasoning, why not siding out a duress instead of a chant against non-cb decks? With Duress you often can't take every counter they got between Spell Snare and Stifle they got too many. Chant just asks for "FoW or not?" and there you go. Is it for the high number of off color spells post board?

Bryant Cook
05-31-2009, 10:34 PM
Following this reasoning, why not siding out a duress instead of a chant against non-cb decks? With Duress you often can't take every counter they got between Spell Snare and Stifle they got too many. Chant just asks for "FoW or not?" and there you go. Is it for the high number of off color spells post board?

I've never honestly thought about it. It'd probably be better to board out a Duress.

Piceli89
06-01-2009, 09:17 AM
I've never honestly thought about it. It'd probably be better to board out a Duress.

LoL. Yes, i agree. I also think that against decks such as Ichorid, it would have been better A LOT to keep all the orim chants, and add +4 pyroblasts. The ability to stop then from a quick win or to prevent them by raping your hand in response to a Ichorid/narcomoeba trigger is too sweet to cut them.

Congratz for the result, Bryant. One question: how would you have sided if you had met heavy artifacts decks like Stompy ? I'm interested in it because in my meta it seems that stompy decks are going to rise a lot, and i think that 3 sprees +1 H.Recall should be enough. The point is: to leave 1 spree as a wish target or to board everything in? I noticed that in this tourney, you often boarded in all the hate avaiale against possible chalices without leaving options Sb for BWish. Is this supposed to be correct? I mean, leaving an answer sideboard, even if you slow yourself a lot, you can increase the possibilty of picking it. It's also true that you didn't meet a single chalice (piece of lucksack :P), but what if you'd have played against Stax/Dragon Stompy?

Also, after the tournament, which changes would you do ? which cards didn't satisfy you enough?
Uh, i noticed you got my advice of the volcanic island (and H.Recall). Glad for it, hope they were useful for ya.

Bryant Cook
06-01-2009, 02:34 PM
There was one game where I wished Volcanic was an Underground. But... there were 2 postboard games where the Volcanic was huge when I had Pyroblasts in hand.

I like to board in +2 Spree, +1 Hurkyl's, +1 Echoing Truth against artifact decks. Taking out 4 Chant, I know you can stall them a turn with Chant. But I'd rather have an answer. If you wanted you could also board in the Duress over something else (Mox, Brainstorm). I like to leave Chain in to bounce Chalice at 0.

I would rather have a Pyroblast against Ichorid and stop them from comboing to begin with than to stop them for a turn mid combo.

Piceli89
06-01-2009, 03:09 PM
There was one game where I wished Volcanic was an Underground. But... there were 2 postboard games where the Volcanic was huge when I had Pyroblasts in hand.

I like to board in +2 Spree, +1 Hurkyl's, +1 Echoing Truth against artifact decks. Taking out 4 Chant, I know you can stall them a turn with Chant. But I'd rather have an answer. If you wanted you could also board in the Duress over something else (Mox, Brainstorm). I like to leave Chain in to bounce Chalice at 0.

I would rather have a Pyroblast against Ichorid and stop them from comboing to begin with than to stop them for a turn mid combo.

Perhaps i didn't explain myself enough in the question: what i wanted to mean is that, against a possible Dragon Stompy MU, you side ALL you have against artifacts leaving no answers to be grabbed with burning wish? It seems a bit strange to me..

Bryant Cook
06-01-2009, 03:13 PM
I'd rather not waste mana against a deck that wants to deny mana? You have mystical to search for the answers. There's a greater probability that you'll draw them if you board them all in. You don't need a wish answer post board if you have a greater chance of drawing them.

Piceli89
06-01-2009, 03:39 PM
I'd rather not waste mana against a deck that wants to deny mana? You have mystical to search for the answers. There's a greater probability that you'll draw them if you board them all in. You don't need a wish answer post board if you have a greater chance of drawing them.

therefore, isn't it a clever thing to side out a few Wishes (say, 1-2), since at this point the only thing they can grab for you is kill or storm engine?

Bryant Cook
06-01-2009, 04:18 PM
Um...no? Why the hell would you side out a valuable card like Burning Wish? It's a tutor. It's what you need to win the game. It finds storm engines and the win, not to mention protection in Duress. What is better than Burning Wish that you would rather have? Orim's Chant? I disagree.

Piceli89
06-01-2009, 04:36 PM
Um...no? Why the hell would you side out a valuable card like Burning Wish? It's a tutor. It's what you need to win the game. It finds storm engines and the win, not to mention protection in Duress. What is better than Burning Wish that you would rather have? Orim's Chant? I disagree.

I'd rather much have Infernal tuor in my hand rather than burning wish in those cases. With IT you grab Ad Nauseam directly, which lets you win the game at impressive speed, even before they can lock you under their chalices or, even worse, trinis; with Wish you can grab IGG or etw, ok, but a fast Ad Nauseam guarantees lost of more probable victory then , say, an IGG , for which you must have other tutors in the yard, lots of accel, ecc. I'm definitely going to make -1 Wish, +1 tutor for these MUs; if i'll fail, i'll recognize my wrong assumption.

Jim Higginbottom
06-01-2009, 05:26 PM
It is pretty rare that I grab ad nauseam with infernal tutor.

Piceli89
06-01-2009, 05:32 PM
It is pretty rare that I grab ad nauseam with infernal tutor.

Demonic tutor:Yawgmoth's Will/Yagwmoth's Bargain=(Infernal tutor+LED):X
Resolve the equation, finding X.





(Solution: IGG/Ad Nauseam, but, since with IGG 1)we can only grab 3 cards back, 2) in Legacy we don't play Black Lotus or any other thing too much broken, 3) and most of all it requires a high amount of mana, I'll assume one of the most broken plays for this deck is going tutor+led-->AdNos turn1/2, or whenever you may.)

evilchen
06-02-2009, 05:07 AM
It is pretty rare that I grab ad nauseam with infernal tutor.

for me its pretty common to go IT-> ADN or B-Wish or if the storm is high enough go for Tendrils

btw:
now after reading that tournament report from you bryant i wanted to know if the 11th land was worth it .. because iam still at playing 10 :)? + (i dont know if a Volcanic Island is worth it when playing 10 lands)

DuxDucis
06-05-2009, 01:11 AM
I came in 10th in a 132 person event. If you're interested...Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=349043#post349043).

Congrats on the finish!

I did have a question though. In several of the matches you cracked LED during your upkeep and then played Ad Nauseam. What is the benefit from doing it this way? I'm sure I'm missing something completely obvious :really:

Cheers

J.V.
06-05-2009, 01:15 AM
You do this when Ad Nauseam is on top of your library, that way you can use the mana from the LED's to pay for the Ad Nauseam in your draw step after you draw Ad Nauseam (since your mana pool doesn't empty until the end of the draw step) If you were to crack LED's with the Ad Nauseam in your hand you would be forced to discard it and therefore could not play it.

Arsenal
06-05-2009, 09:02 AM
Related rules question:

When does the draw step officially end?

Bryant Cook
06-05-2009, 09:08 AM
After both players pass priority, then the first main phase.

Arsenal
06-05-2009, 09:18 AM
After both players pass priority, then the first main phase.

So do I need to announce that I'm specifically retaining priority after I physically draw my card? Or can I just draw, then go about my business without announcing anything pertaining to draw step/priority?

Bryant Cook
06-05-2009, 09:22 AM
So do I need to announce that I'm specifically retaining priority after I physically draw my card? Or can I just draw, then go about my business without announcing anything pertaining to draw step/priority?

I always announce, "float mana into the draw step. During the draw step cast Ad Nauseam." Because someone out there will rules lawyer you.

Arsenal
06-05-2009, 09:28 AM
I always announce, "float mana into the draw step. During the draw step cast Ad Nauseam." Because someone out there will rules lawyer you.

I think I'll start doing this. Thanks.

GreenOne
06-06-2009, 11:48 AM
In about a month Silence will be available for our decks. Are you guys alredy testing it?

I'm quite unsure if this deck wants to run it, and if so, in which slots.
Here are the options:
- -4 duress +4 silence: much stronger against counter decks and the mirrorbut weaker against counterbalance and non-blue decks.
- -X pyroblasts, +X silence: same as above, but SB strategy.
- -2 chants, +2 silence: weaker against aggro, stronger against Meddling Mage and Cabal Therapy.

Thoughts?

BreathWeapon
06-06-2009, 01:02 PM
Split Orim's Chant and Silence, reducing Meddling Mage's impact is invaluable, but you have to keep Duress and Pyroblast just to diversify your disruption vs permanents and counter/remove Meddling Mage and Counterbalance.

Piceli89
06-06-2009, 01:57 PM
I dunno if splitting Chants with Silences will be a good idea. I mean, the kicker issue sometimes may save our asses from critical attacks g1 if we are performing bad. and no one in legacy plays misdirection (oh well, yes, there's divert, but i don't think it's that played..). The protection package works perfectly as it is now, so it shouldn't be really touched or modified at all.

Bryant Cook
06-08-2009, 11:43 AM
If I was to play Silence it'd be a 1 of over the 4th Chant, solely to get around Runed Halo on Chant.

Mokaod
06-08-2009, 12:00 PM
I have played the list from the op in a 70+ people tournament this sunday with as only exception I didn't play Hurkyl's Recall in my board just because I don't have it. I walked into a couple of problems i couldn't get my head around.

Could someone please explain to me how you deal with Trini/Moon (Dragonstompy) and CounterTop? I've tried different approaches but I just couldn't get the game turned around after seeing those 2 pairs resolve...

God I hate CounterTop, so much even I'm seriously thinking of bringing a C/T deck to next tournament... *sigh*. Please save me from being one of the obvious.. ;)

Tnx! Mok.

Piceli89
06-08-2009, 12:41 PM
I have played the list from the op in a 70+ people tournament this sunday with as only exception I didn't play Hurkyl's Recall in my board just because I don't have it. I walked into a couple of problems i couldn't get my head around.

Could someone please explain to me how you deal with Trini/Moon (Dragonstompy) and CounterTop? I've tried different approaches but I just couldn't get the game turned around after seeing those 2 pairs resolve...

God I hate CounterTop, so much even I'm seriously thinking of bringing a C/T deck to next tournament... *sigh*. Please save me from being one of the obvious.. ;)

Tnx! Mok.

Dragon Stompy: try to play all the mana acceleration you have before they can land any Chalice/Trinisphere, assuming that you're playing first. If you 're on the draw, I'd suggest taking out all the chants ( maybe keep 1, but no more), and also 1 duress, to put all the artifact hate / bounce avaiable. From my experience, I can tell you that Hurkyl's Recall is just a house against them. Instant, pretty cheap, dodges Chalice, and does everything you want in one hit. Its only flaw is that it can't be tutored by Wish, but at least we have Mysticals maindeck. Ah, Blood Moon effects are manageable, since you have Petals and Moxes ( and LEDs, ofc).

-CounterTop: try to Duress him as soon as possible, so that you can (attempt to) take it. If it lands in g1, try to do the Chain of Vapor trick (play CoV targetting your own LED/mox ecc, if he lets it resolves, copy it saccing a land and bounce CB, which can't counter the copy of CoV).
Or, if Countertop lands, try to get which cards is on the top , and then try to go off. There are times when you have a cc1 spell, an IT and double LED.My advice would be to play th cc1 spell so that, if they don't find the cc1 on top, they cash in top. Try to go off then avoiding cc1 with IGG loops or drawing a lot with AN ( of course hoping that he hasn't any FoW or Snare or whichever counter in hand).
In g2 and g3, you have Pyroblasts, which are a great boost to fight that fucking enchantment. One more time, bluff comboing or alternate CCs of your spell in order to let Pyroblast destroy CB.


I know that this sounds good read but it's not simple at all to pull off during real playing, but i can ensure you that, with a bit of practice, there are times when you can deceive your opponent enough to make him spend all mana on cashing in top, and in response to this you can Pyroblast CB. Or, against DS, you can wait for some times if they don't put eough pressure or a fast clock on you, cast Hurkyl's EOT or a huge Spree the same turn and go off. Some people also mentioned that DS has no outs to an early EtW, but the bad thing is that DS is becoming to pack Powder Keg, which may hurt a lot both EtW and your mana accel. I guess this is a risk to take.

linux-ll-
06-08-2009, 05:20 PM
@Piceli89

Could you please explain me why they can´t counter the copy of Chain of Vapor with Counterbalance?

DireLemming
06-08-2009, 05:29 PM
@Piceli89

Could you please explain me why they can´t counter the copy of Chain of Vapor with Counterbalance?
Because copying a spell doesn't trigger CB.

heroicraptor
06-10-2009, 01:42 AM
Better start coming up with decklists that don't abuse LED.

Sun_Ra
06-10-2009, 01:47 AM
Meh. LED is still abuseable. They just cut out that corner-case of Mystical Tutoring up an Ad Nauseam and cracking LED in your upkeep. IGG loop got hit with the nerfbat much harder.

Yeah, I'm angry about it.

GreenOne
06-10-2009, 03:55 AM
For those unaware of what are saying the 2 people above me, check this (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a).

This obviously removes the "break LED in the upkeep, float mana in the draw step, play Ad Nauseam" trick, that we're doing something like 1 match out of 4. Not bad as a mess.

Additional suckish rules states that the removed from the game zone no longer applies to cards imprinted in a Chrome Mox or Removed with Diminishing Returns (they are instead "exiled"). This sucks too: you can't anymore Burning Wish for one of those cards.

Oh, yeah, our LED is supposed to get stronger now that doesn't manaburn you! LOL.

Let the flame begin.

lordofthepit
06-10-2009, 05:06 AM
I was considering building TES, but haven't completely assembled everything yet. How much does it hurt not to be able to 1) go IGG loop with multiple LED, Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish or 2) Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseam during upkeep, cracking LED in response, and floating mana into the draw step?

Does that seriously hamper the ability of storm combos to compete? I suspect it would, but not as much for "good" combo players, but it's seriously discouraging for a new combo player like me to have to not be able to rely on those broken plays.

GreenOne
06-10-2009, 05:09 AM
I was considering building TES, but haven't completely assembled everything yet. How much does it hurt not to be able to 1) go IGG loop with multiple LED, Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish or 2) Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseam during upkeep, cracking LED in response, and floating mana into the draw step?

Does that seriously hamper the ability of storm combos to compete? I suspect it would, but not as much for "good" combo players, but it's seriously discouraging for a new combo player like me to have to not be able to rely on those broken plays.
Case #1 is still possible.
#2 is a bit harder, as it comes out quite often.

Combi will still survive, with almost the same matchups percentages, but sucks anyway.

BreathWeapon
06-10-2009, 08:53 AM
That's unfortunate, we will probably have to remove Mystical Tutor after 10th, that card is back to sucking all over again with out LED + AdN.

Why are people saying the IGG chain got nerfed? Did I miss something in the new rules?

Bryant Cook
06-10-2009, 10:19 AM
This is unfortunate. But we'll live. You can still Wish for cards removed via Returns or Mox. I understand that they are 'exiled', but thats what the zone is now called. I'm sure Wish now says get an Exiled sorcery.

Also, what are people talking about the IGG loop for?

Blitzbold
06-10-2009, 10:24 AM
This is unfortunate. But we'll live. You can still Wish for cards removed via Returns or Mox. I understand that they are 'exiled', but thats what the zone is now called. I'm sure Wish now says get an Exiled sorcery.



Unfortunately not:



However, the acknowledgment that this zone is, in fact, fully within the game does bring about functional changes to the six Wishes, Ring of Ma'rûf, and the Research half of Research // Development. These cards let you get cards from "outside the game," which has been ruled to include your card collection (in casual games), your sideboard (in tournament games), and the removed-from-the-game zone. That's no longer the case. Exiled cards are not outside the game (and you could argue that they never really were), so these cards will no longer be able to access cards in that zone. Their primary functionality—getting cards from your collection or sideboard—remains unchanged, of course.

Bryant Cook
06-10-2009, 10:46 AM
The thing I'm most angry about is I'm forced to add Ill-Gotten Gains back into the maindeck. Thanks a lot fuckbags.

EDIT: I'm goldfishing as if the bullshit changes happened. I'm still not too disappointed. Igg can stay out of the MD.

SuperBean
06-10-2009, 01:05 PM
I was just thinking the same thing Bryant.

GreenOne
06-10-2009, 01:14 PM
EDIT: I'm goldfishing as if the bullshit changes happened. I'm still not too disappointed. Igg can stay out of the MD.
When did you remove IGG from the maindeck?!?
Is it time to remove some number of Mysticals from the deck, now that the upkeep-LED trick is not available anymore?

lolosoon
06-10-2009, 01:25 PM
Meh. LED is still abuseable. They just cut out that corner-case of Mystical Tutoring up an Ad Nauseam and cracking LED in your upkeep.
Well, Mystical => AdNauseam with LED in play (onto the batllefield :vomits:) is manageable for builds packing Sensei's Top (alla DDFT).

But I dunno if we can sneak Tops into TES lists...

Bryant Cook
06-10-2009, 01:29 PM
When did you remove IGG from the maindeck?!?
Is it time to remove some number of Mysticals from the deck, now that the upkeep-LED trick is not available anymore?

I only play 3 Mystical, it still fetches Ad Nauseam/Dark Ritual/Protection. So, I'm keeping it.

I cut IGG last week after 4-0ing a local then lost 2 games in top 4 to Mulliganing because I drew Igg and flipping Igg on Ad Nauseam. I'm replacing it with Ponder 4. You still have access to Igg via Wish, you just need +2 mana for the Igg Loop now.

Piceli89
06-10-2009, 01:38 PM
I only play 3 Mystical, it still fetches Ad Nauseam/Dark Ritual/Protection. So, I'm keeping it.

I cut IGG last week after 4-0ing a local then lost 2 games in top 4 to Mulliganing because I drew Igg and flipping Igg on Ad Nauseam. I'm replacing it with Ponder 4. You still have access to Igg via Wish, you just need +2 mana for the Igg Loop now.

Man, it seems that you're going to reduce the variety of Storm engines that made your deck strong. Are you really sure you want it ?

Anywhere, Forsythe and all those who introduced these shitty rules are sons of a bitch. Goddamn fucking new rules, they want us to play the crappy formats like Standard, or are they inducing us to leave Magic and join Yugioh? Fuckers.

And now I'm fearing for the worst option. I have the feeling that on the 20th of June something will change, and it will seriously mutilate this deck ( and others, i hope).
However, hoping that they won't ban LED, we must find a way to not lose too much the power of this deck. I mean, the LED+AdNos in upkeep was very , very busted, it allowed for turn 2 kills. Now that this is not possible anymore, i don't know how much this deck loses of its main advantage, i.e. absurd speed. Will we have to cast AdNos always by rituals without exploiting LED's bustness? That's shitty.

It's time to work on a new list. Are mysticals still worth in that quantity?

Bryant Cook
06-10-2009, 01:43 PM
Man, it seems that you're going to reduce the variety of Storm engines that made your deck strong. Are you really sure you want it ?

Anywhere, Forsythe and all those who introduced these shitty rules are sons of a bitch. Goddamn fucking new rules, they want us to play the crappy formats like Standard, or are they inducing us to leave Magic and join Yugioh? Fuckers.

And now I'm fearing for the worst option. I have the feeling that on the 20th of June something will change, and it will seriously mutilate this deck ( and others, i hope).
However, hoping that they won't ban LED, we must find a way to not lose too much the power of this deck. I mean, the LED+AdNos in upkeep was very , very busted, it allowed for turn 2 kills. Now that this is not possible anymore, i don't know how much this deck loses of its main advantage, i.e. absurd speed. Will we have to cast AdNos always by rituals without exploiting LED's bustness? That's shitty.

It's time to work on a new list. Are mysticals still worth in that quantity?

I still have access to Returns and IGG if I need them. They just cost an additional 1B now. Not a big deal.

They've already nuttered us a bit. Hopefully they ban counterbalance/top because of this....?

I won't be reducing the numbers of Mystical, it's still solid, plus I'm running Mystical targets when I sideboard.

EDIT: For those who are interested, my newest list is in the opening post.

BreathWeapon
06-10-2009, 02:11 PM
Man, it seems that you're going to reduce the variety of Storm engines that made your deck strong. Are you really sure you want it ?

Anywhere, Forsythe and all those who introduced these shitty rules are sons of a bitch. Goddamn fucking new rules, they want us to play the crappy formats like Standard, or are they inducing us to leave Magic and join Yugioh? Fuckers.

And now I'm fearing for the worst option. I have the feeling that on the 20th of June something will change, and it will seriously mutilate this deck ( and others, i hope).
However, hoping that they won't ban LED, we must find a way to not lose too much the power of this deck. I mean, the LED+AdNos in upkeep was very , very busted, it allowed for turn 2 kills. Now that this is not possible anymore, i don't know how much this deck loses of its main advantage, i.e. absurd speed. Will we have to cast AdNos always by rituals without exploiting LED's bustness? That's shitty.

It's time to work on a new list. Are mysticals still worth in that quantity?

You don't need multiple engines MD, I cut IGG and Returns a long, long time ago and reducing your dead draws for business (in the case of Ad Nauseam or Disruption) does nothing but improve your control match ups.

Mystical really, really sucks with out LED, you're better off cutting the card disadvantage tutor for redundancy, considering it's no longer a LED enabler. Also, SBing changes a lot IMO, because now Ponder is back to being filler.

Piceli89
06-10-2009, 02:15 PM
I still have access to Returns and IGG if I need them. They just cost an additional 1B now. Not a big deal.

They've already nuttered us a bit. Hopefully they ban counterbalance/top because of this....?

I won't be reducing the numbers of Mystical, it's still solid, plus I'm running Mystical targets when I sideboard.

EDIT: For those who are interested, my newest list is in the opening post.

Bryant, be sincere. How much games you won because of a very early Mystical+LED+AN? I don't know for you, but personally i won LOTS of games. Plus, the impossibility not to do this basically makes the deck a lot worse against black decks packing plenty of discard. How much you think the deck is going to be weakened because of this new fucking ruling ? I think that we lose the most broken option we could exploit, and this is very, very bad.

I'd really like that they'd ban Counter-fucking-Top, but as now I'm so disilluded from WotC seeing what fucking mess thay're pulling up that it's very likely they won't touch anything, and blue CB aggro-control decks will officially dominate Legacy, there's no out from this.

Bryant Cook
06-10-2009, 02:32 PM
Bryant, be sincere. How much games you won because of a very early Mystical+LED+AN? I don't know for you, but personally i won LOTS of games. Plus, the impossibility not to do this basically makes the deck a lot worse against black decks packing plenty of discard. How much you think the deck is going to be weakened because of this new fucking ruling ? I think that we lose the most broken option we could exploit, and this is very, very bad.

I'd really like that they'd ban Counter-fucking-Top, but as now I'm so disilluded from WotC seeing what fucking mess thay're pulling up that it's very likely they won't touch anything, and blue CB aggro-control decks will officially dominate Legacy, there's no out from this.

You can still use LED. It'll just be different, I'm tired of these "the sky is falling reactions".You can still Mystical for Infernal/Wish/Ad Nauseam and get an Engine/mana/protection. It may slow us down a turn, but it's no different from pre-Nauseam LED combo.

Yes, it'll hurt against discard. How that's such a small portion on the metgame I don't care.

GreenOne
06-10-2009, 04:42 PM
Bryant, be sincere. How much games you won because of a very early Mystical+LED+AN?
I count 6 times in 19 games (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13819) won. It's a trick used quite often. The deck will not die, however, losing that trick hurts.

SuperBean
06-10-2009, 08:35 PM
Mystical doesn't suck now, not a single bit. It's a tutor that can bring up almost anything in your deck when needed, including protection/disruption. So I'm not sure how that's bad?

I really don't think the deck has lost any power, people just can't rely on the draw step trick any longer.

Arsenal
06-10-2009, 11:26 PM
Mystical doesn't suck now, not a single bit. It's a tutor that can bring up almost anything in your deck when needed, including protection/disruption. So I'm not sure how that's bad?

I really don't think the deck has lost any power, people just can't rely on the draw step trick any longer.

A smaller issue, but people can no longer Wish back RFG cards from Chrome Mox or more importantly, Diminishing Returns. Small quibble, but something that people should remember.

BreathWeapon
06-11-2009, 04:20 AM
Mystical doesn't suck now, not a single bit. It's a tutor that can bring up almost anything in your deck when needed, including protection/disruption. So I'm not sure how that's bad?

I really don't think the deck has lost any power, people just can't rely on the draw step trick any longer.

Mystical Tutor wasn't good enough before Ad Nauseam + Lion's Eye Diamond, so I don't see how it can be good enough now. The sky definitely isn't falling, but it's certainly been lowered now that we can't set up for the T2 win via top deck tutors and cantrips. We can redesign, but losing 1 turn is a big deal in a combo deck that's crushed by Counterbalance, especially in a Storm deck that emphasizes winning before the bad shit happens.

Bryant Cook
06-11-2009, 02:41 PM
Mystical Tutor wasn't good enough before Ad Nauseam + Lion's Eye Diamond, so I don't see how it can be good enough now. The sky definitely isn't falling, but it's certainly been lowered now that we can't set up for the T2 win via top deck tutors and cantrips. We can redesign, but losing 1 turn is a big deal in a combo deck that's crushed by Counterbalance, especially in a Storm deck that emphasizes winning before the bad shit happens.

I'm looking at the situation right now. This is where my Mystical tutor slots are...

Mystical = 4th Infernal

Which is stronger? I'm betting Mystical. There's a few reasons, Infernal Tutor in the sideboard is amazing. I love Wishing for Ad Nauseam. Mystical can grab Chain of Vapor, an amazing addition to the maindeck since Ad Nauseam. Mystical can also grab protection without needing a copy of it. However, the drawbacks of Mystical are that its slow and the card doesn't go to your hand. The main argument right here is how strong Infernal as a wish target.

Mystical = Cabal Ritual

Cabal Ritual is weak and is really only good after Nauseam, by then you have Dark Rituals and Rite of Flame. I'd rather not take an addition 2 damage that I don't need

Mystical = Ill-Gotten Gains

This is where the 60th slot is...if I was to cut a Mystical I'd probably be forced to add Ill-Gotten Gains back to the maindeck. I'm already up to 4 Ponder and 3 Duress. It could be a 4th Duress, but turning Wish into protection is more valuable in my eyes. I don't want to add gains back in...reasons are stated above...

What would you like to add?

Piceli89
06-11-2009, 03:01 PM
I'm looking at the situation right now. This is where my Mystical tutor slots are...

Mystical = 4th Infernal

Which is stronger? I'm betting Mystical. There's a few reasons, Infernal Tutor in the sideboard is amazing. I love Wishing for Ad Nauseam. Mystical can grab Chain of Vapor, an amazing addition to the maindeck since Ad Nauseam. Mystical can also grab protection without needing a copy of it. However, the drawbacks of Mystical are that its slow and the card doesn't go to your hand. The main argument right here is how strong Infernal as a wish target.

Mystical = Cabal Ritual

Cabal Ritual is weak and is really only good after Nauseam, by then you have Dark Rituals and Rite of Flame. I'd rather not take an addition 2 damage that I don't need

Mystical = Ill-Gotten Gains

This is where the 60th slot is...if I was to cut a Mystical I'd probably be forced to add Ill-Gotten Gains back to the maindeck. I'm already up to 4 Ponder and 3 Duress. It could be a 4th Duress, but turning Wish into protection is more valuable in my eyes. I don't want to add gains back in...reasons are stated above...

What would you like to add?
I think the only worth inclusion you could make is putting IGG back again in the deck. Wishing for it is very mana intensive, and you can't do it really often. Never, to be honest, because you'd need such a quantity of accels and LED to make it good that you'd probably be light on protections, or you'd just need to have a very good ( if not perfect) hand. And it's just a good ( not great, but still valid ) engine which suits perfectly for certain decks. I'd never cut it from MD, because it's a safe win whereas there are times when you lose from AN starting at 20 just because of bad luck. Keeping diversified Engine storms is a must for this deck, it's the feature that makes it very good. The fact that you randomly flipped it in a tourney 2 times doesn't make it bad, it only makes you understand that AN is sometimes shit, because it relies on a very massive dose of luck, sometimes. So let's just keep safe ways to win, no?

Bryant Cook
06-11-2009, 03:15 PM
I think the only worth inclusion you could make is putting IGG back again in the deck. Wishing for it is very mana intensive, and you can't do it really often. Never, to be honest, because you'd need such a quantity of accels and LED to make it good that you'd probably be light on protections, or you'd just need to have a very good ( if not perfect) hand. And it's just a good ( not great, but still valid ) engine which suits perfectly for certain decks. I'd never cut it from MD, because it's a safe win whereas there are times when you lose from AN starting at 20 just because of bad luck. Keeping diversified Engine storms is a must for this deck, it's the feature that makes it very good. The fact that you randomly flipped it in a tourney 2 times doesn't make it bad, it only makes you understand that AN is sometimes shit, because it relies on a very massive dose of luck, sometimes. So let's just keep safe ways to win, no?

I rarely cast IGG. It's not worth taking the 4 damage maindeck. I still have access to the card, you're being a bit conservative. Just try the deck out without Igg, you'll realize you don't miss it.

GreenOne
06-11-2009, 03:27 PM
I think the only worth inclusion you could make is putting IGG back again in the deck. Wishing for it is very mana intensive, and you can't do it really often. Never, to be honest, because you'd need such a quantity of accels and LED to make it good that you'd probably be light on protections, or you'd just need to have a very good ( if not perfect) hand. And it's just a good ( not great, but still valid ) engine which suits perfectly for certain decks. I'd never cut it from MD, because it's a safe win whereas there are times when you lose from AN starting at 20 just because of bad luck. Keeping diversified Engine storms is a must for this deck, it's the feature that makes it very good. The fact that you randomly flipped it in a tourney 2 times doesn't make it bad, it only makes you understand that AN is sometimes shit, because it relies on a very massive dose of luck, sometimes. So let's just keep safe ways to win, no?
Yeah, IGG in the main is still unvaluable. It's the way you can win against aggro if you got a slow hand and AN become worse. It's also a sure win when an Orim Chant isn't countered. It's also quite good against Ichorid and discard decks, and now that the deck lost the Mystical+LED trick that was good against them, IGG needs to be in the main. No questions.

Piceli89
06-11-2009, 04:03 PM
I rarely cast IGG. It's not worth taking the 4 damage maindeck. I still have access to the card, you're being a bit conservative. Just try the deck out without Igg, you'll realize you don't miss it.

Just tried your version, and I swear i would have given my life away in several situations to have IGG in the deck.

Bryant Cook
06-11-2009, 04:18 PM
Just tried your version, and I swear i would have given my life away in several situations to have IGG in the deck.

I know I won't be adding the IGG back into the maindeck, until at least until these new rules are in effect. Maybe then.

Piceli89
06-11-2009, 04:32 PM
I know I won't be adding the IGG back into the maindeck, until at least until these new rules are in effect. Maybe then.

It's better perhaps to get confidence with new rules by now, since they'll change how we perform this deck a bit.
As you want, in any case.

BreathWeapon
06-11-2009, 05:10 PM
I'm looking at the situation right now. This is where my Mystical tutor slots are...

Mystical = 4th Infernal

Which is stronger? I'm betting Mystical. There's a few reasons, Infernal Tutor in the sideboard is amazing. I love Wishing for Ad Nauseam. Mystical can grab Chain of Vapor, an amazing addition to the maindeck since Ad Nauseam. Mystical can also grab protection without needing a copy of it. However, the drawbacks of Mystical are that its slow and the card doesn't go to your hand. The main argument right here is how strong Infernal as a wish target.

Mystical = Cabal Ritual

Cabal Ritual is weak and is really only good after Nauseam, by then you have Dark Rituals and Rite of Flame. I'd rather not take an addition 2 damage that I don't need

Mystical = Ill-Gotten Gains

This is where the 60th slot is...if I was to cut a Mystical I'd probably be forced to add Ill-Gotten Gains back to the maindeck. I'm already up to 4 Ponder and 3 Duress. It could be a 4th Duress, but turning Wish into protection is more valuable in my eyes. I don't want to add gains back in...reasons are stated above...

What would you like to add?

Additional Ad Nauseams and Tinder Walls are personal favorites (Ad Nauseam less so now that you can't luck sack Cantrip + LED into it), but I think just adding redundancy to threats, disruption and acceleration can be just as good as running Mystical Tutor. IT and Duress in the SB is fine, but that doesn't mean we can't run a 3rd Ad Nauseam, a Silence or a Tinder Wall MD instead of moving IT and Duress back into the MD automatically. Also, 4th Ponder over Chain of Vapor is a fairly automatic decision.

I agree Cabal Ritual is terrible, but a singleton Tinder Wall is actually really strong. 1xing or 2xing that card pretty much takes away your issues with it, and extra 1cc acceleration and extra mana production are damn useful.

Jeff Kruchkow
06-11-2009, 05:48 PM
Additional Ad Nauseams and Tinder Walls are personal favorites (Ad Nauseam less so now that you can't luck sack Cantrip + LED into it), but I think just adding redundancy to threats, disruption and acceleration can be just as good as running Mystical Tutor. IT and Duress in the SB is fine, but that doesn't mean we can't run a 3rd Ad Nauseam, a Silence or a Tinder Wall MD instead of moving IT and Duress back into the MD automatically. Also, 4th Ponder over Chain of Vapor is a fairly automatic decision.

I agree Cabal Ritual is terrible, but a singleton Tinder Wall is actually really strong. 1xing or 2xing that card pretty much takes away your issues with it, and extra 1cc acceleration and extra mana production are damn useful.

Please no. The Tinder Wall discussion has been had several pages ago. I know its your personal "tech" or whatever, but there is no need to preach it every other page.

BreathWeapon
06-12-2009, 01:20 AM
Please no. The Tinder Wall discussion has been had several pages ago. I know its your personal "tech" or whatever, but there is no need to preach it every other page.

Look, no one ever bothered to actually test Tinder Wall or give a serious argument for why Tinder Wall is bad (Oh, it's green in a 5c deck and it can be removed against decks that board out their removal ...), the fact of the matter is TES is overly reliant on Mystical Tutor for acceleration and is short on "juice" compared to the old Simian Spirit Guide versions. Bryant just cut IGG after he preached how necessary IGG was MD, over time people come to the realization there's more than just one way to play TES and cards need to be constantly tested and re-tested for archetype optimization.

Bryant Cook
06-12-2009, 01:41 AM
Actually, I think I'll be adding Igg back after the rules change over the 3rd Mystical. Giving me 2 Mystical, 4 Ponder, 1 IGG. Without the upkeep trick, Ad Nauseam is weak against the aggro decks. I found myself in bad situations against Goblins casting Nauseam at 11 life.

BreathWeapon
06-12-2009, 11:52 AM
Actually, I think I'll be adding Igg back after the rules change over the 3rd Mystical. Giving me 2 Mystical, 4 Ponder, 1 IGG. Without the upkeep trick, Ad Nauseam is weak against the aggro decks. I found myself in bad situations against Goblins casting Nauseam at 11 life.

I know I beat Tinder Wall like a dead horse, but 0/3 blocker that can trade with their attacker is pretty damn solid vs the life loss issue.

That said, going back to IGG may well be warranted, where do you see TES with Silence now that we can reliably double Chant/Silence to enable IGG thru' FoW?

As an aside, do you feel your version of TES is really acceleration light? With out Mystical turning LED into a Lotus, I find myself tutoring for Dark Ritual way more than I want to.

Bryant Cook
06-12-2009, 12:06 PM
I know I beat Tinder Wall like a dead horse, but 0/3 blocker that can trade with their attacker is pretty damn solid vs the life loss issue. I don't feel like Tinderwall has a home in the deck right now. Even with Mystical Tutor being weak, it's ability to become protection/acceleration/storm engines is still stronger than +1 mana.


That said, going back to IGG may well be warranted, where do you see TES with Silence now that we can reliably double Chant/Silence to enable IGG thru' FoW? I've yet to test Silence, I imagine it will be like when we all played Abeyance. As of right now my plan is to play 3 Chant/1 Silence. I'd like to make it 3 Chant/ 2 Silence. But the problem is where do we cut cards? Do we go back to three ponder? Do we go back down to two Duress and weaken our Counterbalance match-up? Slots are tight right now.


As an aside, do you feel your version of TES is really acceleration light? With out Mystical turning LED into a Lotus, I find myself tutoring for Dark Ritual way more than I want to. I don't feel that it's light compared to other storm decks in comparison. However, it's light compared to past lists running SSG and Cabal Ritual. But I feel that there's more stability while keeping the same speed.

BreathWeapon
06-12-2009, 01:34 PM
"Tinder Wall, go" is a strong mana fixing/mana generating play for me, even with the risk of Swords to Plowshares, and it's a tempo stealer vs aggro. It's definitely more than just +1 mana, and redundant acceleration has been really important for me lately in live play. That said, I understand if you run another accelerant, threat, protection, tutor or cantrip in that slot, but that said I think you really underestimate how good it can be.

I'm not just thinking about splitting Orim's Chant and Silence or adding another "Orim's Chant," but 8xing the full set of Orim's Chant and Silence just for enough W cards to effectively imprint for W and support casting a protection spell off of it. Maybe Duress is necessary vs Counterbalance, but there's definitely some structural consideration to take into account with having the full 8 white cards.

I definitely feel like something needs to be changed in TES right now, with out the bustedness of Mystical + LED I just don't feel like I'm fast enough to duck Counterbalance.

Bryant Cook
06-12-2009, 01:41 PM
I'm not just thinking about splitting Orim's Chant and Silence or adding another "Orim's Chant," but 8xing the full set of Orim's Chant and Silence just for enough W cards to effectively imprint for W and support casting a protection spell off of it. Maybe Duress is necessary vs Counterbalance, but there's definitely some structural consideration to take into account with having the full 8 white cards.

Are you suggesting 11 MD protection spells? I don't know what to say here, with that much white I may consider a Tundra over a 4th Mox. But it seems awful versus everything not blue.

Piceli89
06-12-2009, 01:56 PM
Are you suggesting 11 MD protection spells? I don't know what to say here, with that much white I may consider a Tundra over a 4th Mox. But it seems awful versus everything not blue.

11 protections MD is a suicide. The current configuration of spells works greatly , so far. 4 orim's chant is just enough; not to mention that, if you'd add a tundra, this deck would have serious color issues. the white must be represented only by orim's chant, that's enough.
As long as Counterbalance exists in Legacy, Duress must stay in the maindeck.

Ah, i see that you gave up the 3th mystical to reintroduce IGG. Well done sir, there 'll be times when you'll notice that IGG is a must for this deck.
Also, 4 ponders should provide the maximum of consistency, even losing a bit of speed. But, in any case, this is not the deck that used to perform a turn1 kill so often; the meta changed since the ANless version, slowing itself, and this allows more consistent and solid kill-hands.
We'll see if on June the 20th, this will be revolutioned one more time.

BreathWeapon
06-12-2009, 02:15 PM
Are you suggesting 11 MD protection spells? I don't know what to say here, with that much white I may consider a Tundra over a 4th Mox. But it seems awful versus everything not blue.

No, I meant 4xOrim's Chant and 4xSilence as the disruption package.

Bryant Cook
06-12-2009, 02:19 PM
No, I meant 4xOrim's Chant and 4xSilence as the disruption package.

So...you're for scooping to counterbalance all together?

Jim Higginbottom
06-12-2009, 03:47 PM
with 8 chants you could sometimes time walk 2 turns into your combo..that being said i still think it's not right/

Jeff Kruchkow
06-12-2009, 06:43 PM
So...you're for scooping to counterbalance all together?

I believe what he is suggesting is that with 8 chant you can more often go off through fow in the early turns. While i disagree, its a decent idea.

BreathWeapon
06-13-2009, 03:11 AM
So...you're for scooping to counterbalance all together?

No, 4 Orim's Chant, 3 Duress and SB Pyroblast might be the best configuration, but 4 Orim's Chant and 4 Silence improve the structure of the deck for Ill Gotten Gains and Chrome Mox so it should at least be tested.

Bryant Cook
06-13-2009, 09:52 AM
No, 4 Orim's Chant, 3 Duress and SB Pyroblast might be the best configuration, but 4 Orim's Chant and 4 Silence improve the structure of the deck for Ill Gotten Gains and Chrome Mox so it should at least be tested.

How would that improve anything? You're scooping to the deck you need to win against.

Pelikanudo
06-13-2009, 09:56 AM
@Bryant Cook.

Regarding to this list :
The EPIC Storm
By Bryant Cook
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Spells
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:4 Pyroblast
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Hurkyl's Recall


I think you and me are making the addecuate approach but I disagree with you in some points :
I exactly I have been playing the almost side , at first I didn't play g.shot but I noticed in one game I lost I wouldn't if I had it in side, hurkils is neccessary. too.
But I noticed as well that playing 1 infernal tutor in side makes D.Returns completly useless so instead that slot could be : 1 REB or 1 Vindicate, which I prefer the first option.
My E.Truth slot is replaced by Slugther pact , but that personal preferenc I think.
Regardin to the base , I absolutly find the configuration of 10 lands multicolored perfect ( 2 U.Paradise , 1-1 forbiddian,etc),, so not neccesity of playiong 11 not multicolored. ¿?
So the logical suit is -1 land = +1 ponder,
A thinking of mine is that ponder is making the job sometimes better than Brainnstorm becuase of the lack of not many sufflers. So boys , in general the combination of 4 ponders 4 brainstorm believe me is absolutly necessary.
Regarding to the 2nd A.N , only becuase of the possibilities of beeing discarded, possibility I do NOT contemplate, prefer the number 2.

BreathWeapon
06-13-2009, 11:28 AM
How would that improve anything? You're scooping to the deck you need to win against.

Granted, but 8 white cards improves the odds of imprinting white on Chrome Mox and 8 Chant/Silence improves the odds of double Chant/Silence to punch thru' Force of Will for Ill Gotten Gains. You're worsening the Counterbalance match up to improve the Control match up, obviously that may not be the best choice, but 8 Chant/Silence Storm.dec is bound to have its advantages.

I'm perfectly happy with the disruption configuration as it is (I argued until I was blue in the face for Duress vs Counterbalance) but Silence deserves serious testing IMO.

@Pelinkanudo

SB Infernal Tutor is not > than SB Diminishing Returns, Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam costs 9 mana compared to Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns and that's not an inconsequential difference in actual play. Also, I think 1 MD Ad Nauseam is fine, if Ad Nauseam is discarded you can still IGG or Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens for just +1 mana.

Raindown
06-14-2009, 02:07 AM
We going to see changes to the lists after the m10 rule changes?

Jim Higginbottom
06-14-2009, 08:12 PM
igg is going main deck, 1 chant is being replaced by a silence.

Piceli89
06-17-2009, 06:13 PM
After having played against some decks (Dreadstill, Merfolk, Pikulish decks), i realized how much this deck really suffers Wasteland. A single Wasteland can compromise this deck at a point when you're stuck with 0 lands on the field and your opponent is raping your face. For this reason, I chose to go up to the 12th land. I know that in this way "speed is compromised, bla bla bla", but I wouldn't really be sure bringing to a tourney a deck that is hurt so much from such a widely-played card ( at least, here in Italy). I think the 4th ponder is accessory, so i run 3 of them and used that slots as the 12th land. I put a Bloodstained Mire, because i felt that Fetchlands , in this deck, can somehow be more useful at some extent than Rainbow Lands since they protect themselves better from LD, bring sinergy with Brainstorm/Ponder, and thin your deck (paradoxally, in this deck this is the least effect).
And I was wondering: would it be possible to cut some City of Brass to add few Fetchlands? To me having a little further vulnerability to Stifle< total vulnerability to Wasteland, since the first is played only in (some) blue decks, while the 2nd is nowadays a common staple in many archetypes. A very low number of fetches shouldn't make Stifle too relevant, though ( it's not like we'd be ANT playing 2 full sets).
My main concern about this issue is that this deck, being a 3c+a light splash for the 4th, could theorically work with a combination of three colours (therefore, using dual lands), and with some Rainbow Lands to support W for Orim's Chant. So far, i tried 7 Rainbow Lands, and i had only rare problems.
What do you think about this?

4 Gemstones
2-3 City of Brass
-----------------
1-2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

The fact about the 12th land is that you usually want to open with 2 lands in hand, no more, no less. I opened too many hands with 1 or even 0 lands, IRL. 1 is risky unless you're going off immediately ( which is as much as risky , espeially facing a blue deck), 3 is too much. I think that a prefect 1/5 of the deck being lands could be quite good to pull off that 2 initial lands.
Anyone tested this too, agrees/disagrees?

BreathWeapon
06-18-2009, 07:21 PM
igg is going main deck, 1 chant is being replaced by a silence.

It's 2 Orim's Chant and 2 Silence, not being able to Infernal Tutor for another Silence isn't worth the kicker.

Jim Higginbottom
06-20-2009, 08:40 AM
You may very well be right, I was just rehashing what Bryant had already stated.

Pelikanudo
06-20-2009, 11:56 AM
@BreatheWeapon
@Picceli


Regarding this list :

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 undiscovered Paradise (or whatever combination of forbiddian)

Spells

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

3 Infernal Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor

4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Orim’s Chant
4 Duress

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor


SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Cabal therapy
SB:4 Pyroblast
SB:1 Slaughter pact
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Hurkyl's Recall

My thougths are next :

I'm on the side as B.Weapon that the number of A.N must be 1, it's its natural number, as we have tutors to find it, and as a tutored card is much better.
Definately , Cabal ritual has been only good for me post A.N , and even that way I do not like to eat 2 add damage, if you notice this is equatable :
1 mystical tutor -> D.Ritual = 1 Cabal R in hand + 1 rite of flame in the next draw step.

I like also the full package of both ponder+brainstorm and orims + duress.

I agree with you Picceli
Also , I'd like to put in 2 lands more I'm thinking about how could be that configuration :
I've been trying :

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic island

or

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic island
1 polluted delta
1 Flooded strand

I prefer the first one simply because avoids stifle ,
But which cards will you take out from the list above exposed?
Maybe 1 duress and 1 orims ?
or 1 duress 1 c.mox ?
or 1 duress 1 IGG ?



Ideas, suggestions, Onions(pi) ?

Mystical_Jackass
06-20-2009, 12:52 PM
Would Abeyance > Chant in this deck? get to keep your card number up

BreathWeapon
06-20-2009, 02:24 PM
Tournament Report: 2nd Place (M10 Rules)

MD

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Orim's Chant
3 Duress
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Forbidden Orchard

SB

1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Duress
1 Maelstorm Pulse (Filler)
1 Death Mark
4 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify

Regarding the build, 1 Ad Nauseam, 0 Ill Gotten Gains and 4 Tinder Wall, I decided - the Ad Nauseam + Lion's Eye Diamond and Mirage Tutor/Cantrip interaction, there's no point in using 2+ Ad Nauseam in TES other than for threat density. Protecting Ad Nauseam from Duress thru' redundancy is pointless, because even if Duress discard Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor can still tutor for Burning Wish and win via Ill Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens. With 1 5cc, 1 4cc, 8 2cc, 27 2cc, 23 0cc and 4 0/3 blockers, I've found Ill Gotten Gains a "dead draw" more often than not. Infernal Tutor doesn't need a second MD target, because at worst Meddling Mage is just a "double Sphere of Resistance" by forcing Infernal Tutor to find Burning Wish (and disabling 1 card instead of 4 cards with Meddling Mage is a HUGE gambit).

Mystical Tutor is sub-optimal, with out T2 Mystical Tutor + LED into Ad Nauseam, your a turn too slow vs Counterbalance esq. decks on the play and they can see our strategy a mile away. TES is sufficiently redundant in threats, disruption, acceleration and most importantly speed, so it's more important to rely on mulligans and not a "band aid" tutor that diminishes the explosiveness of the deck.

We've been over Tinder Wall, but IMO, TES wants every last 1cc accelerant. The card is so useful as a blocker, accelerant, mana fixer and "Tinder Wall, go" for +RR is well worth the weakness to STP. Frankly, we played Xantid Swarm and Vexing Shusher regardless of STP, so I don't think it should even be an argument. Honestly if the opponent is keeping in STP on the off chance we'll pass the turn when we play it, he's SBing out something more important for Blue Elemental Blast.

5 Rounds of Single Elimination

Round 1: Goblins

I keep,

City of Brass
Glimmer Void
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Tinder Wall
Dark Ritual
Burning Wish

Game 1

Opponent leads with "Lackey, go" and I respond with "Tinder Wall, go" after drawing another Chrome Mox. Opponent Stingscroungers my Tinder Wall, connects with Goblin Lackey and plays Siege-Gang Commander. I draw Ponder, Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns and drop a dead Chrome Mox for Glimmervoid. Opponent leads into me for 8 after Goblin Warchief hits the board, but I manage to draw a second Tinder Wall, imprint it on Chrome Mox to cast Tinder Wall and then unload into Diminishing Returns for the win.

Game 2

Opponent drops Mogg Fanatic, I drop 16 goblins off Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam into Burning Wish - opponent scooped.

Round 2: Affinity

Game 1

I keep the NUTZ

Affinity doesn't play Force of Will, bad for Affinity ...

Game 2

I keep

3 Tinder Wall
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Glimmer Void
1 Infernal Tutor

Triple Tinder Wall keeps the beats off long enough for me to top deck an artifact and an accelerant after hitting a chain of Ponders.

Round 3 BUG Landstill

A long, drawn out match. Thankfully BUG Landstill doesn't have MD Counterbalance or SB Mage/Cannonist and no clock, so it's just a question of slugging it out pound for pound against their counters and top decking out of their Wasteland. Thankfully Stifle does shit vs TES now, Ad Nauseam just improved the match up a frickin' ton.

Round 4 Survival

Game 1

I know what this guy usually plays, so I keep a hand with out disruption and go for the kill on the draw. Unfortunately, assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, because he decided to run Stifle/Naught and I eat Stifle after a Diminishing Returns into Tendrils of Agony.

Game 2

Lesson learned, I Duress thru' Force of Will and dump Goblins on the board - GG.

Game 3

Opponent mulligans himself to death.

Round 5 UGR Dreadstill

Game 1

I keep a Cantrip heavy hand and come up short, after being savaged by Tarmogoyf I top deck Infernal Tutor, at which point I don't have the life for Ad Nauseam or the mana for Burning Wish - boo.

Game 2

I board in Empty the Warrens, my opponent boards in Engineered Explosives and takes me to frown town.

All in all, I still feel like I'm behind the aggro-control match up (if you call Dread Still aggro-control) but the deck did what it was suppose to do and I only paid for SBing IGG once - which I still think is the right call, because drawing IGG is a mull to 6 and it happens more than being ran down on life IMO.

Piceli89
06-20-2009, 02:42 PM
I agree with you Picceli
Also , I'd like to put in 2 lands more I'm thinking about how could be that configuration :
I've been trying :

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic island

or

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic island
1 polluted delta
1 Flooded strand

I prefer the first one simply because avoids stifle ,
But which cards will you take out from the list above exposed?
Maybe 1 duress and 1 orims ?
or 1 duress 1 c.mox ?
or 1 duress 1 IGG ?

Ideas, suggestions, Onions(pi) ?

The very reason that induced me to introduce fetchlands in my build of TES is, other than a slightly more resistance to Wasteland, the fact that sometimes you really open with shitty hands ( One example? Tendrils, Burning Wish, IGG, Brainstorm, Land, Chrome mox, Land.), and fetches allows you to sculpt incredibly-good hand from a mediocre one. Brainstorm counting only on Ponders, mysticals and (rarely) Infernal tutor to give you a good dose of Card Quality through shuffle effects is utopic ( and really slow); the majority of the times, you'll just draw 3, and wait to draw the other useless cards back. So I decided to go for it and try a version which relies on a medium quantity of Fetchlands; i kept 5 rainbow lands essentially for Orim's Chant. Of course there are also some changes: this is just a testing, i took Kolowith's GP list and tinkered it a bit, adding and subtracting what i liked/disliked the most.

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island (cut Badlands because getting it in initial hand with Cantrips simply sucks)

1 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine


// Spells

3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm

[B]3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
[B] 1 [TO] Cabal Ritual

4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor

3 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [US] Duress
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation

2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony



// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

5 Fetches for the aforementioned purposes, but not that much like Ft because we don't need that many duals, and I don't want Stifle to become too relevant. 1 Cabal ritual because it's obviously synergic with fetches, and may balance post-AN the lack of the 4th Chrome Mox ( which isn't there because it's goddamn awful to draw 2 moxes in the inital hand, it's by far the card that i hate more in this deck, i won't stop repeating that. I'd rather risk fizzling with AN than playing the full set). The singleton Pact of Negation is there as an experiment, i know it's antisynergic with LEDs, but its main purpose is to protect an Orim's Chant against blue-based decks, double protection for W. I think that, with 3 Tutors getting both these pieces, it's a manageable play. The rest is pretty much conventional, the only thing one could notice is the lack of IGG maindeck; this because, like Mox, i hated to draw it in initial hand, and, at a lesser degree, to flip it with AN sometimes ( ok Bryant, i recognize this).
This build also lacks Bounce MD, which is the only real thing i dislike about it ( no room at all, unfortunately). But there's still always Burning Wish, even if it can't get rid of Counterbalance ( however, even Chain of vapor rarely did).

I repeat, I added these changes (which aren't definitive at all, it's just a little tweak on the regular list) because i felt the deck was too much luck-dependant: sometimes you open god draws, sometimes you open such shitty hands that you can't do nothing but mulligan or attempt to win on turn 6. This is a huge inconsistency of the deck, that i felt somehow needed to be improved. perhpas its just me who can't open decent hands (God didn't give me the Sacred gift called Luck).

Jim Higginbottom
06-20-2009, 10:59 PM
Why did the event have m10 rules?

Pelikanudo
06-20-2009, 11:14 PM
@Breath Weapon
I really like your list ...
But after watching at it the question I have is:
Why don't you run 10 lands , and for example +1Duress or +1 IGG or +1 chain of vapor? I hate the 11 number¡¡¡ , at least try to fit 12 lands¡¡¡
Why don't you play chain of vapor?
Definately no cabal ritual , in my opinion Tinder wall is by far superior...
and definately 1 AN.
I really like the approach about 4 ponder 4 brainstorm and 4 burning,
I mean if you play 4 burning really there is no need of playing m.tutors or chain of vapor or IGG , cards which functionaly can be perfectly provided by b.wish.

BreathWeapon
06-21-2009, 02:34 AM
Because 11 lands are optimal for drawing 1 land in your starting hand, and there's nothing I want to cut for 12 lands and nothing I need to add for 10 lands. At most, I'd MD Duress for Forbidden Orchard and SB Cabal Therapy, but frankly I think it's unnecessary.

I don't run IGG because it's a mulligan to 6 and a top deck brick.

I don't run Chain of Vapor because I don't run Mystical Tutor.

MD aside, I really think you guys should 1 Shattering Spree, 1 Simplify and 1 Death Mark instead of 1 Hull Breach and 1 Grape Shot (you can still run Grape Shot in the open slot if you find it useful) because 1 mana makes a HUGE difference when it comes to removing your target and going off in the same turn.

fearphage
06-21-2009, 08:27 AM
I've found Ill Gotten Gains a "dead draw" more often than not. Infernal Tutor doesn't need a second MD target
I keep a Cantrip heavy hand and come up short, after being savaged by Tarmogoyf I top deck Infernal Tutor, at which point I don't have the life for Ad Nauseam or the mana for Burning Wish - boo.Would IGG have come in handy here? Perhaps it is personal preference, but I generally IGG-loop people to death. I use Ad Nauseam as my 1-of "oh shit" button instead of the centerpiece of the deck which seems to be how it functions for most of the others here.

Yesterday, I participated in a few informal single-elimination tournaments with a few changes to my normal decklist. The biggest change for me was more disruption and moving Empty the Warrens to the board (+1 duress +SB Empty the Warrens). Two Game-1's could have been won, if I'd have had EtW maindeck. It is my secondary kill condition just fyi.

By putting EtW in the side and removing IGG maindeck, it feels like you are putting all your eggs in the Ad Nauseam basket. TES used to have a bevy of threats and outs but now you are narrowing the focus to being dependent on AN with only Burning Wish allowing you to find other threats. This seems like a poor judgement call. I run more acceleration than most lists I've seen lately, and I don't have excess mana most of the time, so infernal -> wish -> IGG is not something I can afford on a consistent basis.

Pelikanudo
06-21-2009, 09:26 AM
Because 11 lands are optimal for drawing 1 land in your starting hand, and there's nothing I want to cut for 12 lands and nothing I need to add for 10 lands. At most, I'd MD Duress for Forbidden Orchard and SB Cabal Therapy, but frankly I think it's unnecessary.

I don't run IGG because it's a mulligan to 6 and a top deck brick.

I don't run Chain of Vapor because I don't run Mystical Tutor.

MD aside, I really think you guys should 1 Shattering Spree, 1 Simplify and 1 Death Mark instead of 1 Hull Breach and 1 Grape Shot (you can still run Grape Shot in the open slot if you find it useful) because 1 mana makes a HUGE difference when it comes to removing your target and going off in the same turn.

I agree with you in every thing, I didnt know simplify card... better detahmark+simplyfy+spree than pyroclasm +grapeshot+spree.

CAn you expose the reasons why you do not run mystical?
my reasons is mainly because not need when playing 4 ponder 4 brainstorm 4 burnin and 4 i.tutor agree, any other addition?
And why glimmervoid>forbiddian>u.paradise in my opinion is :
glimmervoid<forbiddian<u.paradise

BreathWeapon
06-21-2009, 12:43 PM
Would IGG have come in handy here? Perhaps it is personal preference, but I generally IGG-loop people to death. I use Ad Nauseam as my 1-of "oh shit" button instead of the centerpiece of the deck which seems to be how it functions for most of the others here.

Yesterday, I participated in a few informal single-elimination tournaments with a few changes to my normal decklist. The biggest change for me was more disruption and moving Empty the Warrens to the board (+1 duress +SB Empty the Warrens). Two Game-1's could have been won, if I'd have had EtW maindeck. It is my secondary kill condition just fyi.

By putting EtW in the side and removing IGG maindeck, it feels like you are putting all your eggs in the Ad Nauseam basket. TES used to have a bevy of threats and outs but now you are narrowing the focus to being dependent on AN with only Burning Wish allowing you to find other threats. This seems like a poor judgement call. I run more acceleration than most lists I've seen lately, and I don't have excess mana most of the time, so infernal -> wish -> IGG is not something I can afford on a consistent basis.

I mulligan and top deck Ill Gotten Gains more than I cast Ill Gotten Gains, while I know I'm going to lose a game here or there to Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor for Burning Wish is more than functional if Meddling Mage targets Ad Nauseam (and in that case, why wouldn't Meddling Mage target Infernal Tutor?) As long as you loop Infernal Tutor thru' Burning Wish, you just don't need more than one target for Infernal Tutor.

I removed Mystical Tutor because Mystical Tutor is slow, card disadvantage and gives away information. The deck is more than redundant, knowing what to keep and what to mulligan well goes a long way.

You can 2xGlimmer Void/1x Forbidden Orchard or 2xForbidden Orchard/1xGlimmer Void, but Undiscovered Paradise sucks balls because missing land drops isn't acceptable ever - especially when you want to set up with Burning Wish, Duress, Cantrip or Tinder Wall etc.

SuperBean
06-23-2009, 01:09 PM
I took T.E.S to the Boston 5K and here was my list:

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
3x Mystical Tutor
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Cabal Ritual
1x Orim's Chant
1x Wipe Away

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Ponder

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
3x Chrome Mox

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Scrubland
1x Badlands


I did terrible, and I'll talk about how/why later.

Volrath
06-23-2009, 05:37 PM
Hey guys

I never posted on this forum till now, but i follow it very closely.
I play the deck for months now on MWS ( I always play UGR ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh at tournaments), but would like to take this list to my next tournament

Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [MR] Glimmervoid

Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [US] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant

Sideboard
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
1 [MM] Unmask
3 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [PS] Hull Breach
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [GP] Shattering Spree
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [10E] Deathmark

I know the unmask seems odd, but i love the card since it can remove pesky stifles or E.E's for free, it saved my hairy ass a dozen times where duress would not.

What should i cut for the SB Duress?, except unmask :P

What should i change an my mana base? -1 C.Ritual + 1 Land?, what lands etc?, note i tried duals and i never liked them in TES, they always screwed me up.
Is Rainbow Vale an option?, if you used it to eot Brainstorm/mystical you can still get 2 mana out of it, more then enough most of the time.

Many thanks in advance

BreathWeapon
06-24-2009, 04:53 AM
Unmask isn't free, you're discarding Infernal Tutor 99% of the time after you've burnt your business spell, and discarding Duress or Dark Ritual is totally unacceptable.

Pelikanudo
06-24-2009, 06:54 AM
Regarding to the list you posted before , I think is quite perfect ,
but I ve tested your list like this :

-4Tinder Wall = +3lands +1 duress ;
Have you tried this ?
And it still go on working well

the substitution is like ANT deck but instead those cluncky mystical adding 4 burning wish.

I mean you have the same chances of winning post A.N with than withouth Tinder wall , and this way you make more stable your mana base .
What do you think?

BreathWeapon
06-24-2009, 10:22 AM
Regarding to the list you posted before , I think is quite perfect ,
but I ve tested your list like this :

-4Tinder Wall = +3lands +1 duress ;
Have you tried this ?
And it still go on working well

the substitution is like ANT deck but instead those cluncky mystical adding 4 burning wish.

I mean you have the same chances of winning post A.N with than withouth Tinder wall , and this way you make more stable your mana base .
What do you think?

Acceleration > Lands, you need cards you can play unconditionally in order to resolve Hellbent Infernal Tutors.

TES doesn't care about mana base stability.

Piceli89
06-24-2009, 04:12 PM
I took T.E.S to the Boston 5K and here was my list:

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
3x Mystical Tutor
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Cabal Ritual
1x Orim's Chant
1x Wipe Away

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Ponder

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
3x Chrome Mox

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Scrubland
1x Badlands


I did terrible, and I'll talk about how/why later.

so? we're waiting.

Pelikanudo
06-25-2009, 03:28 AM
@BreatheWeapon :
I have some doubts about your build :
you really have only 5 chances of getting A.N in the deck I mean 4 i.t + 1A.N,
Are they enough? I mean burning doesnt take you a.n.

GreenOne
06-25-2009, 03:48 AM
@BreatheWeapon :
I have some doubts about your build :
you really have only 5 chances of getting A.N in the deck I mean 4 i.t + 1A.N,
Are they enough? I mean burning doesnt take you a.n.
He also has the 4 Infernal Tutors to play Ad Nauseam for 7 mana, if you have a LED.

BreathWeapon
06-25-2009, 04:51 AM
@BreatheWeapon :
I have some doubts about your build :
you really have only 5 chances of getting A.N in the deck I mean 4 i.t + 1A.N,
Are they enough? I mean burning doesnt take you a.n.

Yes, it's no different than pre-AN lists in terms of threat density, and you can always SB in 3 Empty the Warrens.

matelml
06-25-2009, 11:24 AM
I think Unmask isn't that bad of an idea. As long as it's in the wishboard you can just wish for it when it works out and it won't clog up your hand. I could imagine you just wish it when you draw ToA or IGG.

BreathWeapon
06-25-2009, 02:51 PM
I think Unmask isn't that bad of an idea. As long as it's in the wishboard you can just wish for it when it works out and it won't clog up your hand. I could imagine you just wish it when you draw ToA or IGG.

That's really narrow, even Burning Wish -> Cabal Therapy with Tinder Wall on the board only happens rarely, and SB space is premium IMO - I've got 1 slot.

Volrath
06-26-2009, 06:14 AM
That's probably because you are the only one that plays tinder walls.

Don't take it as an offense, i tested it for a long time, but i always seem to wish that it costen R not G.

Unmask is indeed like mox: a way to get rid of cards that fill up your hand but disrupting your opponent instead of giving mana.

I also like it against decks like merfolk that pack lot of stifles, when i duress i mostly take out the fow of other counter and hope to find a duress when i nauseam, or an chant when i can pay the cost.

Also Wish for unmask costs 2 mana and a card like a dead IGG/I.T or Tendrills instead of 3 mana, this doenst mean that i don't want a duress to wish for, but sometimes being free and being able to dump card that clog up your hand is golden.

BreathWeapon
06-26-2009, 07:50 AM
That's probably because you are the only one that plays tinder walls.

Don't take it as an offense, i tested it for a long time, but i always seem to wish that it costen R not G.

Unmask is indeed like mox: a way to get rid of cards that fill up your hand but disrupting your opponent instead of giving mana.

I also like it against decks like merfolk that pack lot of stifles, when i duress i mostly take out the fow of other counter and hope to find a duress when i nauseam, or an chant when i can pay the cost.

Also Wish for unmask costs 2 mana and a card like a dead IGG/I.T or Tendrills instead of 3 mana, this doenst mean that i don't want a duress to wish for, but sometimes being free and being able to dump card that clog up your hand is golden.

None taken, I'll give Unmask a whirl if for no other reason I'm always SBing in Duress on the draw.

DragoFireheart
06-27-2009, 10:30 AM
Will Silence see play in this deck as Orims Chant 5-8?

Citrus-God
06-27-2009, 03:06 PM
Will Silence see play in this deck as Orims Chant 5-8?

Definitely not. Duress punches out Counterbalance, which silence does not do.

Piceli89
06-27-2009, 03:15 PM
Will Silence see play in this deck as Orims Chant 5-8?

Again????
NO, since silence can't take off fucking Counterbalance. Stop.

Today i played some games against competent players; precisely, i did 3-1 against Dreastill, and 5-0 against Team America ( goddamn, really, I'm not joking!). Im' happy , thought those matchups to be really, really hard.

BreathWeapon
06-27-2009, 03:42 PM
Again????
NO, since silence can't take off fucking Counterbalance. Stop.

Today i played some games against competent players; precisely, i did 3-1 against Dreastill, and 5-0 against Team America ( goddamn, really, I'm not joking!). Im' happy , thought those matchups to be really, really hard.

Silence is still easily a 2/2 split or SB back up, it's not like the card isn't going to be used in Storm.

Jim Higginbottom
06-27-2009, 09:00 PM
I went 2-3 at vestal today with TES (with some bullshit stuck in my eye and crying like a bitch all day), I was 2-1 and lost rounds 4 + 5 (my whole crew was 2-1 and we all lost round 4, my friend rob playing goyf sligh lost to bryant round 4.)

Mystical_Jackass
06-27-2009, 11:04 PM
Does chalice 0 kill this deck? also, how does this deck do against countertop?

Limz
06-28-2009, 05:56 AM
Does chalice 0 kill this deck? also, how does this deck do against countertop?

Not really. Chalice at 1 hurts more since it instantly kills 1/3 of the deck

TES do have outs for chalice such as shattering spree in the wishboard. You could also pack 3 sprees after boarding assuming you allot 4 of them in your SB.

As for the counter top matchup, it pretty much sucks preboarding. After sideboarding, the matchup is still an uphill battle but it's not unwinnable

Pelikanudo
06-28-2009, 07:17 AM
@BreatheWeapon mainly:

Well Regarding to the M10 rules , definately Mystical is not the way, no more tricks anyway, I really think the B.Weapon approach is the correct, I have never played a build with A.N in which after playing A.N I had received as litle damage as the B.Weapon build , the other day I tryed the B.Cook list and I lost Post A.N with 17 lifes ¡¡¡ not acceptable.
I suggestion to your build is -1 Shattering Spree +1 MeltDown (trust me is priceless if with 2 trinis in play and 1 chalice is the ONLY way of winning , situation I have lived...),
another point I prefer playing 4 pyroblast intead 3 Empty the warrens.

A question , which is your game plan if you do not have infernal tutor or A.N in order to win around turn 3 , you 're supposed you do have burning in hand?

I have also thinking in playing cunning wish, main deck now with the m10 rules, it can provide you both A.N and cabal ritual , an issue I miss from burning which can not provide a.N and Either any mana acceleration.
the difference between cunin and I.Tutor are just 1 mana.
Do you boys know any other good tutor apart from burning and I.Tutor?

BreathWeapon
06-28-2009, 08:23 AM
Turn 3+ with Burning Wish = Diminshing Returns, unless you know your opponent can't handle Goblin tokens.

Yeah, I love my build, it's so redundant; about all I ever change is Land # 11 vs 4th MD Duress and SB Cabal Therapy or SB Rite of Flame for the same thing, not certain either is worth it tho'.

GreenOne
06-28-2009, 09:51 AM
New card spoiled:
Solemn Offering 2W
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. You gain 4 life.


Can it be SB material? It's easier on the manabase than Vindicate or Maelstron Pulse.

The lifegain might matter: when you're casting Burning Wish, then next turn you play the wished cards, ready to go off the turn after, the opponent is beating your face with a Goyf for something like 10-15 dmg.

Those 4 life might matter for ad nauseam and act like a fog effect against counterbalance decks, while destroying the namesake of the deck.

It's also easier on the manabase than Vindicate and Pulse, but doesn't remove critters (unless we're talking about Canonist)

BreathWeapon
06-28-2009, 09:31 PM
The problem tho' is paying for Burning Wish and then paying for Solemn Offering is at least two turns. Burning Wish for 1cc removal lets you go off the same turn you cast it, so you essentially save the 4 life by not giving your opponent a Time Walk.

GreenOne
06-29-2009, 03:32 AM
The problem tho' is paying for Burning Wish and then paying for Solemn Offering is at least two turns. Burning Wish for 1cc removal lets you go off the same turn you cast it, so you essentially save the 4 life by not giving your opponent a Time Walk.
It can be a good strategy, but it cannot save your ass from CB, and that sometimes your removal won't work (eg. Simplify vs enchantress).

The 1cc solution works for someone, but not for everyone. What I'm interested in knowing is if people currently running Vindicate/Pulse will play Solemn Offering instead or not, and why.

Bryant Cook
06-29-2009, 09:13 AM
I think it's really solid. A good replacement for Vindicate/Maelstrom pulse, the lifegain should matter with City of Brass and attacking dudes. If I had that slot back to the sideboard it'd be this card.

As for cutting Mystical. The people doing this are losing consistency and a Tinder Wall won't make up for it. Find a suitable replacement, but don't pretend its Tinderwall. Adding mana is nothing like finding a card.

Jim Higginbottom
06-29-2009, 09:20 AM
I might add a 4th mystical as now we'll need them to find either dark rit or rite of flame to get out ad nauseam (or if we already have the accel and no ad nauseam to find that).

Bryant Cook
06-29-2009, 09:23 AM
I might add a 4th mystical as now we'll need them to find either dark rit or rite of flame to get out ad nauseam (or if we already have the accel and no ad nauseam to find that).

This is a poor idea. With Mystical becoming worse with the M10 rules I'm cutting them down to two. But it's still necessary to find the cards you need in the maindeck.

BreathWeapon
06-29-2009, 10:00 AM
I think it's really solid. A good replacement for Vindicate/Maelstrom pulse, the lifegain should matter with City of Brass and attacking dudes. If I had that slot back to the sideboard it'd be this card.

As for cutting Mystical. The people doing this are losing consistency and a Tinder Wall won't make up for it. Find a suitable replacement, but don't pretend its Tinderwall. Adding mana is nothing like finding a card.

Redundancy is just as good as consistency, I was M.Tutoring for acceleration more than anything else, adding more acceleration let me just go off instead of wasting a turn and a card searching for said acceleration.

I know we constantly bicker about shit, but seriously the deck and the card run fine together - especially when your SB plan is to unload with ETW vs Counter Balance decks.

Jim Higginbottom
06-29-2009, 10:26 AM
what are you putting in place of the 3rd mystical?

Piceli89
06-29-2009, 12:16 PM
what are you putting in place of the 3rd mystical?

That's definitely a good question. I'm testing the 4th Ponder, but personally i find that 3 is the correct number. Ponder is a good card that lets you stack and know your future draws , which is crucial in terms of gettint the right cards to go off; furthermore, the shuffle effect matters.
But, on the other side, it's a card that, differently from brainstorm, the majority of the times is kinda slow and subpar if it shows in multiple copies; with braintorm you can build a perfect hand drawing the right card and putting back the unnedded, with ponder you just draw one and wait, or shuffle and expose to "randomicity".
That's why I advocate that we shouldn't run more than 3; i know 4 sound more solid and "square", but believe me that drawing double ponder slows down the first turns, when we'd usually want to finish the game.

At this point, may i suggest a single Cabal Ritual back ? Even if it's Snarable, antisynergic with Returns (which is kinda marginal,imo), ecc,ecc, it's still a mediocre-to-godish acceleration that may balance the departure of the LED trick, which forces us to rely A LOT more on accels-->IT/Wish+LED route., i.e. more mana necessary.

[Ah, for the sake of information, yesterday i attended my first 40-men tourney with TES. I went 3-3, being paired against 2 Counterbalance.decs, 2 Dragon Stompy, 1 UGR Faeries (not really known but here in Italy it's spreading like shit.. think at a canadian threshold without mongooses, the 4th copy of each stifle, snare, daze, ecc.., and with Spellstutters, Manlands and Standstill replacing those cards), and a Zoo. Yes, bad matchups as usual. The losses where quite close, though: against the CB dec, i managed to pull off Nauseam even with CB on the field. Since he had a land on top, and i revealed many 0cc accel and a pyroblast, all i needed to reveal was a gemstone to blast CB, and win. I was at 2 life. Of course i reveal Ill-Gotten Gains.
Against Dragon Stompy, i go turn 1 duress, taking the only card that could harm me really, Trinisphere. He topdecks Chalice, sets it for one, and proceeds fucking me. Against faeries, quick beats in the 1st match + the 2nd where he Misdirects my Chant (!), and the turn after Stutters my 2nd chant, Stutters my Wish, Forces my LED, and Dazes my BWish leaving me with 2 mana only for grapeshot, just killed me.
Overall, i lost because of opponents' strokes of luck. I feel the deck is pretty much optimized till now ( i played Bryant's list except for -1 mox, +1 BMire), and i used the LED-Nauseam trick only once. I hope I won't miss that trick very much even in future times.]

Jim Higginbottom
06-29-2009, 03:47 PM
I already run the 4th ponder over igg, should i add igg since its harder to ad nauseam and take out the 4th ponder or the 3rd mystical?

Bryant Cook
06-29-2009, 04:36 PM
I already run the 4th ponder over igg, should i add igg since its harder to ad nauseam and take out the 4th ponder or the 3rd mystical?

I'm looking to cut an Ad Nauseam, Mystical and an Orim's Chant. To add 2x Silence and a 4th Ponder. I play Ill-Gotten Gains maindeck.

Pinder
06-29-2009, 07:22 PM
I'm looking to cut an Ad Nauseam, Mystical and an Orim's Chant. To add 2x Silence and a 4th Ponder. I play Ill-Gotten Gains maindeck.

Why would you cut a Chant for a Silence? Why lose the ability to fog someone when necessary? Are you that scared of Meddling Mage?

Wargoos
06-29-2009, 07:26 PM
Silence does it's trick against Runed Halo too.
But I agree, its pretty situational.

Piceli89
06-29-2009, 07:27 PM
Silence does it's trick against Runed Halo too.
But I agree, its pretty situational.

ANd i don't believe 5 chants and a single Nauseam is the way to go. 7 Protection spells are enough, plus increasing the count of white spells could harm with 3 non-white duals.

Bryant Cook
06-29-2009, 07:33 PM
Why would you cut a Chant for a Silence? Why lose the ability to fog someone when necessary? Are you that scared of Meddling Mage?

Being able to Infernal Tutor for a second copy matters against control. That and threat density (Mage, Halo, Therapy, ect..)

Pelikanudo
07-01-2009, 09:14 AM
@BratheWeapon mainly :
- There are sometimes in which your hand doesn't have A.N OR B.Wish or I.tutor and even advancing in the deck with ponder
or brainstorm you don't find it.
- there are sometimes mana base really sucks , as well in B.Cook list.
- It's supposed that if you do not play IGG , tendrils is as useless as IGG , because it's quite difficult to get storm 10 counters
whitouth any high draw spell.
- If we play burning , we should do not put in main any sorcerys of any kind
- Now we can't use M.Tutor we have to get up the number of A.Nauseam.

Well I propose this :

Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 U.Sea
2 V.Island

Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor


4 [MM] Brainstorm

4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [US] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant

Sideboard
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

1 C.Therapy
3 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [PS] Simplify
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [GP] Shattering Spree
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [10E] Deathmark
1 Channel of the suns
1 Meltdown

Opinions ?

Arsenal
07-01-2009, 09:36 AM
So... you pack it to Meddling Mage naming Burning Wish?

jjjoness'
07-01-2009, 09:50 AM
@BratheWeapon mainly :
- There are sometimes in which your hand doesn't have A.N OR B.Wish or I.tutor and even advancing in the deck with ponder
or brainstorm you don't find it.
- there are sometimes mana base really sucks , as well in B.Cook list.
- It's supposed that if you do not play IGG , tendrils is as useless as IGG , because it's quite difficult to get storm 10 counters
whitouth any high draw spell.
- If we play burning , we should do not put in main any sorcerys of any kind
- Now we can't use M.Tutor we have to get up the number of A.Nauseam.

Well I propose this :

Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 U.Sea
2 V.Island

Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor


4 [MM] Brainstorm

4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [US] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant

Sideboard
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

1 C.Therapy
3 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [PS] Simplify
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [GP] Shattering Spree
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [10E] Deathmark
1 Channel of the suns
1 Meltdown

Opinions ?

Did you actually test this? You have 3 CC4 Spells, 4 CC 5 spells. Something you don't really want with Ad Nauseam.

Wargoos
07-01-2009, 10:13 AM
Since I don't know anybody who is naming B.Wish with MM (they rather go for AN) I would say he is packing it to the heavy reliance on Ad Nauseam itself.
Of course he plays more copies of it to improve the chance of having some in the opening seven which make sense then BUT
-running 4 copies of AN is bad when you get one AN resolved since your chance of flipping at least 2 is pretty high ( I died 50% of the time when I ran 4 AN in my list)
-having more than one in the opening hand is a waste of resources even if you get lucky and are able to imprint it into mox it still slows you down by 1 handcard

I played a rather uncommon list on sunday at a legacy tourney which 24 people attended and came in 2nd.

This was my list:

Maindeck
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
3 Chrome Mox
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
4 Lotus Petal


Side
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

The MD and Side are far from being optimal but here's what I noticed playing it.
-Duress is damn strong. Always when I had 1 in my opening hand - I won that game.

-The upkeep LED trick let's you keep hands that were normally (and after m10) not keepable and I think it takes a lot of flexibilty and options away when it isn't playable anymore.

-Having Burning Wish is plain awesome and I wouldn't ever want to play without it. It gives you so much flexibilty searching for whatever the situation needs. Also gives you the alternative killing plan and let's you mindgame the opponent and still being able to actually win.

- I haven't missed Ill-Gotten Gains MD at all.

- Manabase was alright all day, I never got screwed / couldn't act like I wanted to.


I know my Side is pretty random, but I lacked some cards and couldn't make it quite optimal. I guess Bryants actual Side looks pretty good.

Well since I didn't make notes heres just the MU's and results of the tourney :

Countersliver 2-0

Merfolk 1-2 (played by the german national champion who just lucksacked me g3 drawing 3 Cursecatcher, 3 Daze, 1 FoW and topdecking into Wastes and Lords! Oh, well- since he won the tourney I had the best opp. score.)

WW (DnT?!) 2-0
( I haven't seen much of his deck since I won the on turn 2 both games. After the second game he shows me that he had the white instant which makes him untargetable 'til end of turn [I always forget the card names] and if I would've gone for the Tendrils kill in game 2, I would've actually lost. Luckily I picked the EtW Kill that game =p )

Suicide Black 2-0 (both games T1.5 win)

Dreadstill UBG 2-1 ! (he got bad mulligans g3 and I could go off protected T1.5 the games I won - gave him one of my 4 packs I got for prize afterwards cuz he was so unlucky and I lucksacked my balls of the walls)

so I just lost 3 games the whole tourney and was quite happy and impressed that the deck runned so well.
(Oh and I had a good Karma opening my winning booster since I draw a foil Maelstrom Pulse - people on the streets wanted to call the cops since I behaved like a retarded and cheered all the way home)

Pelikanudo
07-01-2009, 10:17 AM
I do not expect to face M.Mage in first game , thats simple
also note I do not play Tendrils and IGG whjich is quite similar to 2 A.N. except +1 cost

Piceli89
07-01-2009, 10:19 AM
4 Ad Nauseam, 2 Tendrils, 1 IGG= Epic win !

Arsenal
07-01-2009, 10:51 AM
Since I don't know anybody who is naming B.Wish with MM (they rather go for AN) I would say he is packing it to the heavy reliance on Ad Nauseam itself.

His list does not have a win condition in the maindeck. He's 100% reliant on resolving a Burning Wish to grab a Tendrils. All his opponent would have to do is keep him off Burning Wish via Mage, Spell Snare, CounterTop, etc. and smash face ftw.

Wargoos
07-01-2009, 10:53 AM
His list does not have a win condition in the maindeck. He's 100% reliant on resolving a Burning Wish to grab a Tendrils. All his opponent would have to do is keep him off Burning Wish via Mage, Spell Snare, CounterTop, etc. and smash face ftw.

Yeah, thats obvious.
But the opponent doesn't know what list he is running - if he is running tendrils MD or not.
If you're betting on the opponents burning wish as the only out to get tendrils and he actually is playing it md he goes for AN and crushes your face.
So if im facing ANT, I would say 90% of all the time Ad Nauseam.

emidln
07-01-2009, 11:07 AM
Yeah, thats obvious.
But the opponent doesn't know what list he is running - if he is running tendrils MD or not.
If you're betting on the opponents burning wish as the only out to get tendrils and he actually is playing it md he goes for AN and crushes your face.
So if im facing ANT, I would say 90% of all the time Ad Nauseam.

If my deck plays Daze or Spell Snare, I'd likely hit Dark Ritual nearly 100% of the time against TES right now.

Wargoos
07-01-2009, 11:17 AM
If my deck plays Daze or Spell Snare, I'd likely hit Dark Ritual nearly 100% of the time against TES right now.

How do you hit Dark Ritual with spell snare?
Well anyways.
I just wanted to make clear, that if you play Meddling Mage naming Ad Nauseam against combo is quite the most viable plan.
Naming Ritual can't keep the Stormplayer from still comboing off with, for instance rite of flame or cabal ritual.
Naming Burning Wish can't keep the stormplayer from still comboing off with Ad Nauseam.
Naming Ad Nauseam duresses the comboplayer to either
1. Go for the Iggy Route (which requires more mana and gives the non-combo man more time)
2. Go for a solution via Mystical or Burning Wish (which requires more mana and gives the non-combo man more time)
3. laugh at you when his name is emidln since he is running DDFT and goes off with Doomsday. (which requires more time but can be pulled off through opponents hate better)

When you are having Daze and Spell Snare in one Deck, you will also have Force and CBTop or Bolt/moar Counter, which is pretty good against stormcombo anyways.

emidln
07-01-2009, 11:45 AM
How do you hit Dark Ritual with spell snare?

You name Dark Ritual with Meddling Mage.


I just wanted to make clear, that if you play Meddling Mage naming Ad Nauseam against combo is quite the most viable plan.

Wrong.


Naming Ritual can't keep the Stormplayer from still comboing off with, for instance rite of flame or cabal ritual.

TES rarely plays Cabal Ritual. It's difficult to cast Ad Nauseam without Dark Ritual if you are trying to avoid Spell Snare (if you want to use LED to pay for your Ad Nauseam) and Daze (which when the TES player tries to use Rite of Flames and then lands/moxen/petals) to pay for Ad Nauseam can cause a shortage of black mana if they want the Rite of Flame to resolve. Further, this allows your Meddling Mage (and potentially other creatures) to continually make Ad Nauseam worse while you sculpt more counters.

If I was playing against something with lots of fetchlands (storm combo that isn't TES), I'd probably name Orim's Chant if they have shown me white in previous games as the black mana denial plan isn't nearly as effective against decks packing Cabal Ritual.

Wargoos
07-01-2009, 12:02 PM
You name Dark Ritual with Meddling Mage.


Liar! Liar! Pants on fire.
In my post above, I told that this is not a good plan.


TES rarely plays [...] Cabal Ritual.

Assumed that you have all the cards in hand against TES.
If you don't and just have MM you will almost name ANT to buy time to find Counter or set up your CBTop.

If you have MM and Counter then you should name their protection outlet, that makes of course sense.

Since AN-Combodecks always consist of Tutors, Rampcards and Win-engines
I would mostly go for shutting off their Win-Engines first and if possible disrupt their Rituals.

C'mon emidln, no need to get so harsh.

emidln
07-01-2009, 12:05 PM
Liar! Liar! Pants on fire.
In my post above, I told that this is not a good plan.



Assumed that you have all the cards in hand against TES.
If you don't and just have MM you will almost name ANT to buy time to find Counter or set up your CBTop.

If you have MM and Counter then you should name their protection outlet, that makes of course sense.

Since AN-Combodecks always consist of Tutors, Rampcards and Win-engines
I would mostly go for shutting off their Win-Engines first and if possible disrupt their Rituals.

C'mon emidln, no need to get so harsh.

You're playing a deck with at least 8 (probably more) blue counters and meddling mage and you managed to get to turn 2 without seeing any of them? I wish my opponents did that.

Wargoos
07-01-2009, 12:13 PM
You're playing a deck with at least 8 (probably more) blue counters and meddling mage and you managed to get to turn 2 without seeing any of them? I wish my opponents did that.

Yeah, I'm a very unlucky landstill player :(

But still, when you play the MM on turn 2 naming Chant, you must have Counter that doesn't cost anything (namingly FoW or Daze).
And since Landstill doesn't pack Daze....
You have to have Force backup to be ready if the Comboplayer tries to get off and just pray that he doesn't has the Duress.
So you see, even if I pack a lot of counter, I need open mana, which I don't have on Turn2 when I play the MM. And Turn 3 MM on Chant may be to late.

Besides that: What deck else is playing MM? I just know of Landstill as a real, viable Deck. (Countertop does not need MM to have a good combo match-up - Hannifish got grounded by Goyf)

emidln
07-01-2009, 12:18 PM
Yeah, I'm a very unlucky landstill player :(

But still, when you play the MM on turn 2 naming Chant, you must have Counter that doesn't cost anything (namingly FoW or Daze).
And since Landstill doesn't pack Daze....
You have to have Force backup to be ready if the Comboplayer tries to get off and just pray that he doesn't has the Duress.
So you see, even if I pack a lot of counter, I need open mana, which I don't have on Turn2 when I play the MM. And Turn 3 MM on Chant may be to late.

Besides that: What deck else is playing MM? I just know of Landstill as a real, viable Deck. (Countertop does not need MM to have a good combo match-up - Hannifish got grounded by Goyf)

The CounterTop Bant decks seem to play Meddling Mage in their sideboards because they really don't have that great of a combo matchup. Mage + CB is a force to be reckoned with in game 2 though.

Wargoos
07-01-2009, 12:31 PM
The CounterTop Bant decks seem to play Meddling Mage in their sideboards because they really don't have that great of a combo matchup. Mage + CB is a force to be reckoned with in game 2 though.

Well, I don't know if that Bant Deck packs any Dazes md , if not you can say quite the same like i did for the landstill MM situation.
If yes then you have potential ~15% to have one of your 8 non-mana counter to justify the Turn 2 MM on Chant.

I hope you can at least agree that my approach isn't as dumb, as you wanted it to be.

Pelikanudo
07-02-2009, 04:14 AM
@BreatheWeapon mainly :

Regarding to this list :
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 U.Sea
2 V.Island

Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor


4 [MM] Brainstorm

4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [US] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant

Sideboard
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

1 C.Therapy
3 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [PS] Simplify
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [GP] Shattering Spree
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [10E] Deathmark
1 Channel of the suns
1 Meltdown



-Really need somekind of good burning target to get mana better than channel

-The number of IGG + Tendrils = 2 A.Nauseam + 2 mana , if you notice , there is no great diffrence between other A.N decks regarding to average mana cost.
-8 Defense spells should be the number .
- 12 lands should be the correct number not 11 or 10
-We do not need Tendrils or IGG in main becuase of burning , I mean We have to cast A.N to win simply , and next , for sure we'll use Tendrils to win , easily.
- We do not want to draw IGG or Tendrils , no more thatn A.N.
-Before I played 1 A.N becuase of the number of strong tutors , but now we do not have M.Tutor as strong tutor so getting up the number of A.N and getting down the number of high costs spells is ritgh call

Volrath
07-02-2009, 07:22 AM
I see some stormdecks play Rain of filth lately, is this not an option for TES?
I am testing it now and it is already golden when you have 2 lands, more is yust gravy.
And it doesn't cost you as much life as C.Ritual and isn't as cluncy.

Bryant Cook
07-02-2009, 07:47 AM
I see some stormdecks play Rain of filth lately, is this not an option for TES?
I am testing it now and it is already golden when you have 2 lands, more is yust gravy.
And it doesn't cost you as much life as C.Ritual and isn't as cluncy.

Is it worth it though? It's unimpressive unless you have three lands. Two lands is an Rite of Flame. I don't know if it's worth playing a situational card maindeck. It does nothing turn 1 which I can see being a problem.

I've never thought about testing it, I could be talking out of my ass here. I'll get one and try it.

emidln
07-02-2009, 08:21 AM
For what it's worth, I don't play it in FT unless I have at least 16 lands. It's an unthresh'd Cabal Ritual at 2 lands, Dark Ritual at 3 lands, threshed Cabal Rit at 4 lands, and really really good at 5+ lands. TES doesn't normally get to the Dark Ritual level though.

BreathWeapon
07-02-2009, 09:28 AM
@BreatheWeapon mainly :

-Really need somekind of good burning target to get mana better than channel

-The number of IGG + Tendrils = 2 A.Nauseam + 2 mana , if you notice , there is no great diffrence between other A.N decks regarding to average mana cost.
-8 Defense spells should be the number .
- 12 lands should be the correct number not 11 or 10
-We do not need Tendrils or IGG in main becuase of burning , I mean We have to cast A.N to win simply , and next , for sure we'll use Tendrils to win , easily.
- We do not want to draw IGG or Tendrils , no more thatn A.N.
-Before I played 1 A.N becuase of the number of strong tutors , but now we do not have M.Tutor as strong tutor so getting up the number of A.N and getting down the number of high costs spells is ritgh call

11 Land is optimal, Dual Lands are terrible and they'll lose you more games than Forbidden Orchard from color screw.

7 Disruption spells is fine, you can play more or less depending on your play style and risk tolerance.

We don't need IGG MD, but we do need Tendrils MD. You can't let Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony = Auto Win, and SBing Tendrils means you're adding +1R onto the Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam -> Tendrils of Agony chain by subbing Tendrils of Agony with Burning Wish and you're adding +1R onto the Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns chains as well , which is where it's really not acceptable (you also need the redundancy vs Diminishing Returns removing your Infernal Tutor targets).

If you want a SB acceleration target, the only SB acceleration target worth playing is 1 Rite of Flame.

You can run 2, maybe 3, Ad Nauseams if you feel your deck is "threat light."

Jim Higginbottom
07-02-2009, 10:09 AM
I feel that 4 cities, 4 gemstone mine, 1 undiscovered paradise, 1 volcanic island and 1 underground sea is the optimal land configuration. I have always been able to make the mana I need. When I ran 4 cities, 4 gemstone, and 2 undiscovered paradise I really only had problems if I drew both undiscovered paradise. I do feel that 11 is the perfect number as you can still recover from wasteland. The problems start when you lose multiple lands but that really shouldn't happen if you hold some back.

Arsenal
07-02-2009, 11:20 AM
I'd run Forbiddan Orchard instead of Undiscovered Paradise.

BreathWeapon
07-02-2009, 11:28 AM
I'd run Forbiddan Orchard instead of Undiscovered Paradise.

Truth, I don't know why people keep thinking that card is even viable, losing a land drop in a 4 to 5c deck is just epically bad compared to a 1/1

Pelikanudo
07-02-2009, 01:32 PM
11 Land is optimal, Dual Lands are terrible and they'll lose you more games than Forbidden Orchard from color screw.

A point :7 Disruption spells is fine, you can play more or less depending on your play style and risk tolerance.

B point :We don't need IGG MD, but we do need Tendrils MD. You can't let Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony = Auto Win, and SBing Tendrils means you're adding +1R onto the Infernal Tutor -> Ad Nauseam -> Tendrils of Agony
chain by subbing Tendrils of Agony with Burning Wish and you're adding +1R onto the Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns chains as well , which is where it's really not acceptable (you also need the redundancy vs Diminishing Returns removing your Infernal Tutor targets).

If you want a SB acceleration target, the only SB acceleration target worth playing is 1 Rite of Flame.

You can run 2, maybe 3, Ad Nauseams if you feel your deck is "threat light."

I agree regarding the A point
regarding to the A point we never will face M.Mage in first game, therefore this point is wrong, and having Tendrils in side is a better option because it's supposed that post A.N we will win because of our tutors->tendrils.
Tendrils is as bad card as IGG in main, in my opinion, except when we play vs burn, but honestly, thats not agueable.
Regarding to the mana base 10 lands is few, 11 is just 1 more and 12 is optimal, why ANT decks plays 14 and we 10 only ¿?
I don't agree that this deck is based on the Vintage Tendrils decks , but if they play 10 lands is because the play Moxen (Ruby,Sphire...) and you HAVE to agree with me that Moxen IS NOT chrome mox or lotus petal... thats sooo incorrect...

Bryant Cook
07-02-2009, 01:43 PM
I agree regarding the A point
regarding to the A point we never will face M.Mage in first game, therefore this point is wrong, and having Tendrils in side is a better option because it's supposed that post A.N we will win because of our tutors->tendrils.
Tendrils is as bad card as IGG in main, in my opinion, except when we play vs burn, but honestly, thats not agueable.
Regarding to the mana base 10 lands is few, 11 is just 1 more and 12 is optimal, why ANT decks plays 14 and we 10 only ¿?
I don't agree that this deck is based on the Vintage Tendrils decks , but if they play 10 lands is because the play Moxen (Ruby,Sphire...) and you HAVE to agree with me that Moxen IS NOT chrome mox or lotus petal... thats sooo incorrect...

You realize that Tendrils is by far the best card you can draw versus control? Build up to 8 cards, cantrip then play out your hand drawing out counterspells and win. I do this way more than people imagine.

Because we're not the same deck as ANT? I'm not going to argue that this deck is based off Grim Long. I know what I looked at when building TES. 11 lands is optimal, 12 lands may be too many. I often get flooded with 11. Last week I hit 6 land drops in a row against Landstill.

On a different topic, I'm cutting an Ad Nauseam from my list and a Mystical. I want a Ponder, the second slot is up in the air. It was originally Silence, but it's not out yet and I feel something else may be better.

Pelikanudo
07-02-2009, 02:02 PM
You realize that Tendrils is by far the best card you can draw versus control? Build up to 8 cards, cantrip then play out your hand drawing out counterspells and win. I do this way more than people imagine.

Because we're not the same deck as ANT? I'm not going to argue that this deck is based off Grim Long. I know what I looked at when building TES. 11 lands is optimal, 12 lands may be too many. I often get flooded with 11. Last week I hit 6 land drops in a row against Landstill.

On a different topic, I'm cutting an Ad Nauseam from my list and a Mystical. I want a Ponder, the second slot is up in the air. It was originally Silence, but it's not out yet and I feel something else may be better.

- I agree tendrils is the best card when we play vs control, then the question is why you play only one in main deck?.
- In my list playing 4 A.N 4 duress 4 burnin and 4 orims I do not mind having tendrils or not in hand because I'm well prepared vs control, i mean my strategy simply wins theirs.
- and another point is that if you trust in tendrils vs control match ups you really are not making a good approach , you know why?
simply because you play only 1 copy.
Enough?.

Bryant Cook
07-02-2009, 02:34 PM
- I agree tendrils is the best card when we play vs control, then the question is why you play only one in main deck?.
- In my list playing 4 A.N 4 duress 4 burnin and 4 orims I do not mind having tendrils or not in hand because I'm well prepared vs control, i mean my strategy simply wins theirs.
- and another point is that if you trust in tendrils vs control match ups you really are not making a good approach , you know why?
simply because you play only 1 copy.
Enough?.

Because it's all you need? If you really want a second you can Burning Wish for one. Why do you play Zero maindeck? To make yourself weak versus hate? You could make the 4th Ad Nauseam a Tendrils and not lose to your own deck.

How does your Strategy simply win? I don't see how. You play 1 more protection spell and 3 additonal clunky cards.

Piceli89
07-02-2009, 02:49 PM
Bryant, why the hell would you want to cut 1 Ad Nauseam ? You know very well it's the best bomb this deck offers, and it seals game a lot more quickyl than how IGG does, other than being Not graveyard -dependant, and more resistant to counterspells and hate. Ok, it depends on life, but hell, using it to go off on 2nd turn should mean you're at worst at 16 lives or so.
Not to mention that playing 1 may force you to mystical the majority of the time for it, but since you're cutting 1 mystical, i see this very hard.. and ITing for it isn't always that fast ( and it would suffer even cards like Snare more than how it does now).
And if they discard the only 1 you have, or you're forced to pitch it to a Mox?

Really, I can't get your point of doing this.

Bryant Cook
07-02-2009, 02:51 PM
Bryant, why the hell would you want to cut 1 Ad Nauseam ? You know very well it's the best bomb this deck offers, and it seals game a lot more quickyl than how IGG does, other than being Not graveyard -dependant, and more resistant to counterspells and hate. Ok, it depends on life, but hell, using it to go off on 2nd turn should mean you're at worst at 16 lives or so.
Not to mention that playing 1 may force you to mystical the majority of the time for it, but since you're cutting 1 mystical, i see this very hard.. and ITing for it isn't always that fast ( and it would suffer even cards like Snare more than how it does now).
And if they discard the only 1 you have, or you're forced to pitch it to a Mox?

Really, I can't get your point of doing this.

Lately I've been having awful luck with it. Losing at 20 life and not making a land drop after boarding out Igg. I'll probably stay at two, but I'm fucking TIRED of losing in a winning scenario.

Pelikanudo
07-02-2009, 05:24 PM
a) Because it's all you need?
b) If you really want a second you can Burning Wish for one. Why do you play Zero maindeck?
c) To make yourself weak versus hate?
d) You could make the 4th Ad Nauseam a Tendrils and not lose to your own deck.

e) How does your Strategy simply win? I don't see how. You play 1 more protection spell and 3 additonal clunky cards.



a)
Wrong ¡ all you need is Burning wish , THATS SIMPLE Why? because it access to Tendrils

b) don't understand

c) Silly question I do not expect to face in game 1 :
- M.Mage
- duress + extirpate

d) I repeated before that playing 2A.N = 1IGG + 1tendrils + 2 mana
I could run 3+1tendrils for sure but I simply find it useless ,Why : The most of the times I prefer to draw A.N don't you?

e) 3 additonal clunky cards == to 3 A.Nauseam ,you mean ? because if so We can't going on discussing...

I don't even understand why you say this , you have been playing 1IGG+1Tendrils+2A.N configuration which is exactly equal to 4A.N+2mana ; well I play the same and even I reduce the mana average playing +2 lands

Bryant Cook
07-02-2009, 05:26 PM
I'm done trying to argue with someone who doesn't understand basic logic.

BreathWeapon
07-02-2009, 05:28 PM
You can't cut ToA, you're not always going to win with Ad Nauseam, if you cut ToA from the MD then you may as well cut Diminishing Returns from the SB, because the odds of Diminishing Returns removing Ad Nauseam and the additional 1R for Infernal Tutor->Burning Wish->Tendrils of Agony make it pretty much unplayable.

In short, you're doing it wrong.

@Piceli

I don't think 1 more Ad Nauseam makes a difference vs Spell Snare, that card bitch smacks us pretty hard regardless - I usually board in 3 ETW in those match ups.

SuperBean
07-02-2009, 07:51 PM
I don't even want to get into any kind of an argument about what I am testing, I'm posting my most current list for reference:


Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Pact of Negation
1x Wipe Away

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
4x Ponder
2x Infernal Tutor
1x Ill-Gotten Gains

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Island

Sideboard:
3x Vexing Shusher
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x Shattering Spree


Like discussed earlier in the thread, I've been having some terrible luck with my Ad Nauseam flips. I'll be at 16-18 life, cast Ad Nauseam and not be able to win due to life loss, so I cut one Ad Nuaseam and added Ill-Gotten Gains mainboard again.

Also, I feel like Vexing Shusher should be mentioned. He really is the MVP against the Counterbalance match up. Not to mention he's actually got synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond, unlike the blasts. Although he does require a land increase, I really don't think you can play 10-11 land and play Shusher effectively.

Jim Higginbottom
07-02-2009, 11:21 PM
You need to run more moxes...atleast 1...I tried running 3 for awhile and than I realized that flipping moxes with ad nauseam makes it a lot easier to win. I know it sucks having 2 in your opening hand but it definitley makes for better Ad Nauseam flips to run 4. Also, why run IGG md without Tendrils of Agony?

Jim Higginbottom
07-02-2009, 11:23 PM
Cut the 2 cabal rituals for 2 more moxen...you'll be able to flip several more cards off of ad nauseam if you do this.

GreenOne
07-03-2009, 03:38 AM
I'd cut the Bloodstained Mires for Flooded Strands: the only land flooded can't take is Badlands, but you still have the access to all colors, and to the basic land.

Pelikanudo
07-03-2009, 06:10 AM
I'm done trying to argue with someone who doesn't understand basic logic.

Agree, anyway I'm programmer and my logic is quite good
maybe you do not uderstand the basis becuase you have been playing the deck so many time that you can't evolutionate the base.

evilchen
07-03-2009, 07:03 AM
Soooooo what you are a programmer that makes your logic in "improving" the deck better than bryants experience??? Ok...

Iam a programmer too btw... and that has really nothing to do with "logic" in building your TES list.

Piceli89
07-03-2009, 07:30 AM
To All
Sincerely: this topic is becoming quit shitty. Sorry for having said that, but it's the truth. People carry on posting their own list which have many flaws and expecting to receive a feedback, instead of contributing together to improve the version which has revealed to be the better, which is the one in the OP. I'm not claiming this because Cook has invented TES so his version is surely better than the others , but lists without Tendrils, without Chants, and with 3 or > Nauseams simply suck. It's an objective fact. We are not playing against fools, and combo is already having a not-always-that-good time against blue decks, which are the ones to beat consistently. Against Dreadstill, how can you expect to pull off a victory when you duress him and he can hide the counters with Brainstorm, or you see something like "fow, daze, snare, stifle" in his hand? You take 1 of em (arguably force) and proceed to get fucked by the others, or to wait other turns until he lands Counterbalance on the ground and rapes you totally.
For this reason, I consider the opening list to be at least the most representative point from which devolping furtherly the deck.
I think, as i said above, that a couple of points should not even be questioned:
-Chant is the best protection spell for this deck. Do not play 4-ofs if you don't want it, but for christ's sake, a spell that eludes Stifle and Snare which both fuck this deck so hard is >>> Duress. Which should be played too, obv, but not as the only protection, because against blue decks, it won't be able to do the job alone.
-Tendrils must remain main deck. Ok, sometimes it sucks when you draw it, but it's a necessary evil. But, as Bryant said, sometimes you can build a victory just from 8 cards in hand and getting help from oppo's counters to reach the 10-number; and moreover, a list without Tendrils can't play IGG maindeck too, since it can't do the famous "dark rit-IT-LED" loop with IGG, which is damnly strong. At the end of this, what would you take with 4 mana left? burning wish for..grapeshot ? Wow man.

Everything else in the deck can be customized and built in the air, but please, i think that lists without these 2s shouldn't even be commented , unless they win an important tournament ( but still, even if they did, personally I couldn't stand them). And the points i mentioned above are not speculations of mine, but concrete facts proven by lots of tournament and play testing (tournaments, most of all).

BreathWeapon
07-03-2009, 11:02 AM
The problem with Vexing Shusher is that he's slow, expensive and BEBable. The best strategy vs Counterbalance is to either SB in Empty the Warrens (Depending on the presence of Stifle and board control) or SB in Pyroblast, turning the opponent's Counterbalance into a Sphere of Resistance doesn't do you much good unless you get Burning Wish->Removal, and even then Counterbalance bought them so much time for Tarmogoyf to run over your ass.

I more or less agree with Piceli, I'd add Dual Lands and Undiscovered Paradise to his list, but I'm not certain Orim's Chant is a "sacred cow" because a lot of disruption configurations are viable (4 Duress and 3 Thought Seize in my build for instance, or even 4 Duress and 3 Orim's Chant in Bryant's build). It really depends on what your strategy is, for instance discard is way better than Chants when you SB in Empty the Warrens or when you're on the draw, and Chants are better when you're not up against Counterbalance.dec or on the play etc. You've got a lot of customizability between the MD and the SB for your disruption package, I board in and out different disruption all the time based on whether or not I'm ahead, behind, playing, on the draw or know my opponent's counter package.

Jim Higginbottom
07-03-2009, 11:19 AM
Agreed. We shouldn't take up an entire page discussing sub-optimal lists.

Pulp_Fiction
07-03-2009, 03:28 PM
I don't even want to get into any kind of an argument about what I am testing, I'm posting my most current list for reference:


Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Pact of Negation
1x Wipe Away

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
4x Ponder
2x Infernal Tutor
1x Ill-Gotten Gains

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Island

Sideboard:
3x Vexing Shusher
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x Shattering Spree


Like discussed earlier in the thread, I've been having some terrible luck with my Ad Nauseam flips. I'll be at 16-18 life, cast Ad Nauseam and not be able to win due to life loss, so I cut one Ad Nuaseam and added Ill-Gotten Gains mainboard again.

Also, I feel like Vexing Shusher should be mentioned. He really is the MVP against the Counterbalance match up. Not to mention he's actually got synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond, unlike the blasts. Although he does require a land increase, I really don't think you can play 10-11 land and play Shusher effectively.

If you are having trouble with your manabase this is THE BEST 5 color manabase for TES I have ever tested:

4x City of Brass
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea

Pelikanudo
07-03-2009, 10:06 PM
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [5E] City of Brass
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [B] Underground Sea

// Spells
4 [ARE] Duress
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [DM] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony


SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [US] Meltdown
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 3 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [6E] Shattering Spree


These are the following modifications which have served me well , now I absolutly do not play M.Tutor and for sure I miss the trick but , not much.
I Lost a game which I revealed 3 A.N followed¡¡ Well If one of those cards would have been Tendrils would have been gg ...
Regarding to the side I vebeen testing shaterin spreee ,and from those I prefer an EoT ->return to hand Trini and chalice than Play spree-> tapped -> fuc**d next turn ...
I really love Melt down and simplify (Idea I took fromB.Weapon) is just the perfect puzzle.
The configuration of 12 lands + the high density of threat has been given me good results

Jim Higginbottom
07-05-2009, 04:41 PM
This is the list I plan on running post-m10 and since everyone else is posting lists here's what I'm going to run. I decided to stick with mystical tutor as I still need away to find accel and in testing I still use it to find infernal tutor to use LED to cast Ad Nauseam (assuming I can't just do the iGGy Pop loop). I re-added ETW as a win condition since it is just alittle harder to go the tendrils route post-m10 and sometimes 6-10 goblins turn one is good enough.

Lands
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea

Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite Of Flame
2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
3 Duress
4 Burning Wish
3 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Empty The Warrens

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty The Warrens
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall

GreenOne
07-05-2009, 07:43 PM
I'm running your list with those changes.
MD:
-2 Silence +2 Chant. Still unsure if the untargettability is worth the fog effect against aggro.
-1 CoV -1 ETW +1 AdN +1 Ponder. I love the cantrips, and meanwhile hate the maindeck bounce. The only thing I usually want to bounce is a Counterbalance, and CoV doesn't do the job well. I'd run a single Pyroblast before a single CoV. The things you have to break are usually blue anyway, and frees SB space.
-1 Paradise +1 U.Sea. I suck at making manabases, and I just plain copied this from Bryant. Anyway, I like the duals, especially with the 8 cantrips + 3 mysticals I'm using.

I'm still undecided if I want the 4th IT in the maindeck in place of the 3rd Mystical.

SB:
-1 Shattering Spree
-1 Pyroclasm
-1 Hurkyl
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 ETW (I side in a copy against decks without mass removal)
+1 E.Truth

Pyroclasm is really useless. You want it against zombie/goblin tokens and against hate bears. Considering noone is playing more than one type of hate bears at the same time, and that pulse takes care of enchantments too, it's the card you want in that slot. at 3cc is a bit clunky, but blows counterbalances too.

Jim Higginbottom
07-05-2009, 08:20 PM
I tried Bryant's base and had 1-2 occasions where I couldn't make the right mana with a sea. When I used to run 4x gemstone, 4x city, 2x undiscovered paradise the only time paradise was a problem was when i got both of them. By just running a singleton this is never an issue for me. I use the Chain of Vapor sometimes to ramp up storm if I have a lot of artifact mana and can't quite get there.

BreathWeapon
07-05-2009, 08:26 PM
I think you guys are seriously missing out on Death Mark, it kills every hate bear in the format AND Tarmogoyf for B - Pyroclasm is shit in comparison and 3cc removal is way too clunky.

GreenOne
07-05-2009, 08:40 PM
I think you guys are seriously missing out on Death Mark, it kills every hate bear in the format AND Tarmogoyf for B - Pyroclasm is shit in comparison and 3cc removal is way too clunky.
True, it's clunky, but it gets the job done against counterbalance, and frees SB space. If you want you can play Simplify/Shattering Spree/Deathmark, or use just one slot instead of 3 and run Pulse or Vindicate.

I'd go for that configuration too, cause i really like how it can play the removal and win in the same turn. That if it weren't for 3 things:
- Those 2 more SB spaces.
- The fact that simplify sucks, cause it happens that the opponent has some other enchantments
- The fact that simplify sucks more! Cause it will almost never destroy a counterbalance. Seriously, you just got your burning wish through with some luck involved, and you want to also resolve a 1cc spell through CB?
- I don't have an altered simplify.

Jim Higginbottom
07-05-2009, 09:01 PM
Simplify will never kill a counterbalance, atleast not in my metagame.

Jim Higginbottom
07-05-2009, 09:06 PM
I might consider adding deathmark if I saw more of that white artifact creature that hates on us (I can't think of its name) but I can just use shattering spree on it. I really don't care what my opponents are doing as long as they're not stopping me from winning. They can play a Tarmogoyf, I want to win before it loses its summoning sickness.

Jim Higginbottom
07-05-2009, 09:52 PM
@GreenOne

It is good to have 1 infernal tutor in the wish board, there are times where i've been able to win turn 1 because it is there that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

BreathWeapon
07-06-2009, 01:32 AM
If Counterbalance hits, it's usually GG - I don't think it matters what CC your removal is because Burning Wish is just going to get nailed by Counterbalance and Spellsnare. Usually, Simplify is there to deal with randomness like Arcane Laboratory.

SB Infernal Tutor is seriously overrated, you can just win via Returns or Warrens with 3+ mana floating.

Dark_Shakuras
07-06-2009, 01:34 AM
I might consider adding deathmark if I saw more of that white artifact creature that hates on us (I can't think of its name) but I can just use shattering spree on it. I really don't care what my opponents are doing as long as they're not stopping me from winning. They can play a Tarmogoyf, I want to win before it loses its summoning sickness.

Etherswor Cannoist

Jim Higginbottom
07-06-2009, 02:36 AM
@BreathWeapon

You mentioned siding in 3 ETWs against certain decks. I'd kind of like to see your sideboard as it seems very different than what a lot of people are running.

BreathWeapon
07-06-2009, 04:36 AM
@BreathWeapon

You mentioned siding in 3 ETWs against certain decks. I'd kind of like to see your sideboard as it seems very different than what a lot of people are running.

Here it is,

1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
1 Death Mark
1 Thought Seize (I run 4 Duress/3 Orim's Chant MD)
4 Pyroblast

GreenOne
07-06-2009, 04:44 AM
Here it is,

1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
1 Death Mark
1 Thought Seize (I run 4 Duress/3 Orim's Chant MD)
4 Pyroblast
Are you siding both ETW and Pyroblast against CB decks? what's your SB plan?

BreathWeapon
07-06-2009, 09:43 AM
Are you siding both ETW and Pyroblast against CB decks? what's your SB plan?

No, vs Counterbalance and Spellsnare I SB in 3 Empty the Warrens for Tendrils of Agony, Orim's Chant and Ponder on the play and 4 Empty the Warrens for Tendrils of Agony and 3 Orim's Chant on the draw. Vs Counterbalance and Stifle I SB in Pyroblast for Ponders and Tinder Walls on the draw.

If my opponent has sweepers, or Maelstrom Pulse/Echoing Truth etc., I usually SB Empty the Warrens or Pyroblast depending on the CC of the sweeper and whether or not I'm playing or on the draw.

Essentially, you've got 2 SB plans, one that exploits the absence of Stifles and sweepers, and one that's always consistent regardless of their configuration.

You've also got to remember I'm running Tinder Wall, so my ETW plan is consistently more explosive (Mystical Tutor really fucking sucks with ETW).

Jim Higginbottom
07-06-2009, 01:54 PM
How do you guys sb against UBG Dreadstill (w/ counterbalance)?

Piceli89
07-06-2009, 02:34 PM
How do you guys sb against UBG Dreadstill (w/ counterbalance)?

It depends if i'm on the draw or on the play. If i'm on the play, i'd go -1 orim's chant, -1 brainstorm, -1 chrome mox, -1 chain of vapor , +4 pyroblast. If i'm on the draw, duress loses A LOT of its function ( to take off counterbalance or a counter, since the opponent will arguably hide it with brainstorm or even FoW a potential duress to protect that fucking bitch), so i'd go -1 duress, -1 ponder (too slow), , -1 chain of vapor, -1 brainstorm/chant, +4 pyroblast.
I'd also like to make a precisation: putting 4 pyroblasts in all the Blue matchups ( as Bryant for example says in the OP) is not always the best option. Against tempo decks, often putting in 4 pyroblasts is way too much overkill in protection AND it's antisynergic with tutors+LED engine. There 'll be times when you'll open with 3 or more redundant pieces of protection, and this not just good, since a tempo deck against combo tipically aims to build a hand with several free counters+stifle, and then on a turn goes for Tarmogoyf/Mongoose beatings and leaves you with 3-4 turns.
Against Ugr Thresh, for example, i'd only go 3 pyroblasts, still keeping the full set of Chants, which allows you both to bluff in multiple copies and to bypass Snare and Stifle, widely played by them.
To me, pyroblast should go as a full set only against decks with Counterbalance, which, if resolved, will cause a serious harm towards us.

@BreathWeapon: I don't consider a lone CB on the board to be an auto GG. In the last tournament, i managed to go off through it. The point is when it's with Top, and the opponent has already a good grip on the match (i.e., several lands untapped and a clock given by a random Tarmogoyf). At that point, it's effectively over; but you can still rip a win even with Top-less CB on the field, given that it doesn't reveal cc1 spells, which play the fundamental role in the 95% of the ways we go off ( ok, there's still tutors-LED-Igg one, but it would mean you go off without protection, either be Chant or Duress, which is really risky..).
Still , I don't know if boarding in several copies of EtW to go belcher is really a good way to end games quickly; of course it has the pros to need a relatively small amount of storm and not to be countered, but a lone EE, which are really played now , can make all your hand wasted for 1 card. Another point is that CB-style decks usually packs lots of cantrips to gain a filtering power (Top, Ponder, Brainstorm), so they'll be allowed to spend that 2 turns topping-fetching-Bstorming a bit to find the solution. Of course this difficultly happens when you get at least 12 tokens on turn1, but it doesn't always go this way..
And i noticed that the majority of opponents, despites maybe not knowing perfectly what TES is ( they use to consider it as a general "Ad Nauseam " deck), pack Pyroclasm or EE, or Firespout in their Dreadstill or Red thresh Sbs, because they're aware of the presence of EtW and side for it. So i really dunno if EtW it's still worth this surprise effect.

Jim Higginbottom
07-06-2009, 03:04 PM
Between Engineered Plague and Explosives I really don't think ETW is the way to go through Dreadstill w/ C.B and as I main deck a singleton of it I was planning on siding it out for game 2.

BreathWeapon
07-06-2009, 04:15 PM
Regardless of Brainstorm, SBing out Duress on the draw is wrong, because you absolutely need to Duress Turn 1 to prevent Counterbalance Turn 2. If they draw Brainstorm and Counterbalance, congratulate them on being a complete luck sack.

Pyroblast, in any number, is never a bad SB card. Pyroblast isn't just disruption, Pyroblast is a counter, sometimes you'll just hit their cantrips and go off. I'm rarely unhappy to see Pyroblast and Duress in multiples, it's usually Orim's Chant I can't stand to be flooded by.

Yes, ETW is risky, but TES is always going to have an unfavorable match up if it tries to go toe to toe with Counterbalance. With ETW, you basically tell them they either need to side in sweepers or get run over. If they do SB in sweepers, you switch to Pyroblast and enjoy the dead card advantage. That's why I run both ETW and Pyroblast, I'm looking to exploit my opponent's lack of one card or another at all times.

Edit: I said you shouldn't be SBing in ETW vs Dreadstill and Red Thresh any way, especially on the draw, so it's a moot argument.

Jim Higginbottom
07-10-2009, 12:11 PM
Has anyone who isn't main decking 4 ponders tried Ponder in the sideboard? I cut my 4th pyroblast for a Ponder and it won me 2 games in testing when I was kind of stuck otherwise.

emidln
07-10-2009, 01:43 PM
Has anyone who isn't main decking 4 ponders tried Ponder in the sideboard? I cut my 4th pyroblast for a Ponder and it won me 2 games in testing when I was kind of stuck otherwise.

I don't imagine you considered that you might not have been kind of stuck if you had just maindecked four Ponder to begin with.

BreathWeapon
07-10-2009, 01:53 PM
You're better off running Night Whispers or a Draw 4, if the slot is even justifiable.

Valtrix
07-10-2009, 02:05 PM
So, I've been fishing this a little bit lately, and have a couple questions (from the list in the opening post):

1) When you have both a ponder and a brainstorm, which order is generally preferable? I would think that ponder and then brainstorm would make the most sense, because shuffling and then brainstorming lets you see the most number of cards, while you can really only shuffle away one card from brainstorm with a ponder.

2) Is diminishing returns from the board mostly a final-resort card? As in no other options will give you the chance to win? Drawing 7 is powerful, but also somewhat risky because it's unclear what you're going to get.

3) How does one go boarding out cards to bring in pyroblast?

4) How does TES compare with other types of storm-combo decks? (FT, ANT, etc.)

Thanks. I'm somewhat unfamiliar with combo, so I'm trying to learn up about it more.

Jeff Kruchkow
07-10-2009, 04:36 PM
So, I've been fishing this a little bit lately, and have a couple questions (from the list in the opening post):

1) When you have both a ponder and a brainstorm, which order is generally preferable? I would think that ponder and then brainstorm would make the most sense, because shuffling and then brainstorming lets you see the most number of cards, while you can really only shuffle away one card from brainstorm with a ponder.

2) Is diminishing returns from the board mostly a final-resort card? As in no other options will give you the chance to win? Drawing 7 is powerful, but also somewhat risky because it's unclear what you're going to get.

3) How does one go boarding out cards to bring in pyroblast?

4) How does TES compare with other types of storm-combo decks? (FT, ANT, etc.)

Thanks. I'm somewhat unfamiliar with combo, so I'm trying to learn up about it more.

Ive played the deck for quite a while so hopefully I can give some insight here.

First with Brainstorm and Ponder. Generally it depends on the hand and whether or not you want to shuffle away something that you have in your hand. Personally i am about 50/50 on the order because while you see more cards with ponder->brainstorm, brainstorm->ponder lets you get rid of stuff if you have crap on top.

Second, with D. Returns, yeah its a last resort type deal or if you cant AdN and they have a crypt out then its solid. generally against blue its a really unsafe bet and personally I have never used it against a blue deck its really more of a safety net for me.

third, boarding all depends on the matchup, against CB i drop chants, a land and a brainstorm. against non-CB blue decks i drop brainstorm and chain of vapor.

Fourth, im completely biased as I feel that FT is outdated and ANT is a terrible deck that is getting way more recognition than it should because people cant pilot TES well and blame it on the deck.

Hope that helped.

Valtrix
07-10-2009, 05:16 PM
Yep, helped quite a bit, thanks.

BreathWeapon
07-10-2009, 05:19 PM
ANT relied too heavily on Mystical Tutor + LED, now it's clearly inferior to both DDFT and TES.

Boarding out for Pyroblast, on the draw it's Orim's Chants (2 if you play 4) and Ponders or a land.

GreenOne
07-10-2009, 11:04 PM
Boarding out for Pyroblast, on the draw it's Orim's Chants (2 if you play 4) and Ponders or a land.
Do we agree on that? I usually side out a Chrome Mox, a Brainstorm, and a Chant/Infernal/brainstorm for 3 blasts.

BreathWeapon
07-10-2009, 11:28 PM
Do we agree on that? I usually side out a Chrome Mox, a Brainstorm, and a Chant/Infernal/brainstorm for 3 blasts.

It's debatable, Orim's Chants and Cantrips are at their worst on the draw, but I'd never, ever cut Chrome Mox on the draw, because that's when Chrome Mox is at it's best.

I don't think you should cut Infernal Tutor, we're threat light these days.

GreenOne
07-11-2009, 06:08 AM
It's debatable, Orim's Chants and Cantrips are at their worst on the draw, but I'd never, ever cut Chrome Mox on the draw, because that's when Chrome Mox is at it's best.

I don't think you should cut Infernal Tutor, we're threat light these days.
You might be right with IT. I used to do that when I played 4 MD ITs, so actually siding out one opened the wish for IT play. I don't feel light on threats, though. The deck usually wants a couple tutors against control, 3+ clog your hand. I'm still running 4 Wishes, 2 ITs, 3 Mysticals and 2 AN, 11 should be enough with 6 cantrips. Or maybe I should side out a Mystical instead, but it increases its power on G2 & G3.

Chrome mox is actually the card I want to see the least against control, where the card advantage matters. Postside I already got a bit clunkier deck, with some more chaff (blasts) that impedes my combo, but is needed to win. I probably still have to mull hands with 3 protection spells though, so I want to reduce the mulls for 2+ Moxes hands.

About the cantrips. Brainstorm's instant speed is great against CB, cause you don't have to decide if you want to Ponder on your first turn or leave R open for Blast in case he drops CB. But matches against control might take a bit of time, and the deck have too little shuffle effects: if you end up not finding what you need in the first three cards, then you might be stuck with draw/go for a couple turns, while your opponent develops.
Is it better to side out some number of ponders or brainstorms?

Volrath
07-11-2009, 06:16 PM
How many of you have tested Solemn Offering?, the fact that it gains me 4 life and has an CMC of 3 makes it pretty good.

I have one in my SB instead of Vindicate/Pulse, and it does wonders for me, also it has one W in it casting cost, wich is yust gravy.

BreathWeapon
07-12-2009, 01:21 PM
On the draw, Ponder, on the play Brainstorm, because on the draw Ponder is preventing you from Pyroblasting Counterbalance while Brainstorm allows you to either Pyroblast or Prainstorm on your opponent's turn.

For TES, it's never a question of "X card in, Y card out" because the soft counters and the coin flip are both serious considerations for SBing. Vs Spellsnare on the draw, it's 4 MD Empty the Warrens; vs Stifle on the play, it's3 MD Empty the Warrens and 1 SB Empty the Warrens; vs Stifle on the draw, it's 0 Empty the Warrens; vs Counterbalance + Sweepers on the draw, it's Pyroblast for Ponders and 4 MD Duress for an Orim's Chant (if you're not MDing 4 Duress and 3 Orim's Chant, which is superior to 4 Orim's Chant and 3 Duress IMO) vs Counterbalance on the play, it's 3 MD Empty the Warrens etc. etc. etc.

You have to modulate the ETW and Pyroblast SBing based on externalities and not charts.

rockout
07-12-2009, 01:52 PM
How many of you have tested Solemn Offering?, the fact that it gains me 4 life and has an CMC of 3 makes it pretty good.

I have one in my SB instead of Vindicate/Pulse, and it does wonders for me, also it has one W in it casting cost, wich is yust gravy.

Why would you ever worry about having the mana to cast something? This deck runs 5c lands for a reason.

GreenOne
07-12-2009, 02:15 PM
Why would you ever worry about having the mana to cast something? This deck runs 5c lands for a reason.
It happens once every ice age, that you can't cast Maelstrom pulse cause you have Volcanic Island, Mox (black card), Mox (chant). It happened to me once, when T-Rex was the king of earth, and Nostradamus wrote something about it happening again when Berlusconi, at the age of 147 years, will become supreme king of the United States of Italy and Lybia.

Piceli89
07-12-2009, 04:01 PM
It happens once every ice age, that you can't cast Maelstrom pulse cause you have Volcanic Island, Mox (black card), Mox (chant). It happened to me once, when T-Rex was the king of earth, and Nostradamus wrote something about it happening again when Berlusconi, at the age of 147 years, will become supreme king of the United States of Italy and Lybia.

Fuck you sir, don't ever tell the truth about the future of Mankind to these Americans, they didn't know it yet! :laugh: :laugh:

rockout
07-12-2009, 04:50 PM
It happens once every ice age, that you can't cast Maelstrom pulse cause you have Volcanic Island, Mox (black card), Mox (chant). It happened to me once, when T-Rex was the king of earth, and Nostradamus wrote something about it happening again when Berlusconi, at the age of 147 years, will become supreme king of the United States of Italy and Lybia.

lol.

SuperBean
07-13-2009, 08:00 PM
Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
3x Mystical Tutor
2x Ad Nauseam
2x Orim's Chant
1x Wipe Away

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
4x Ponder
3x Infernal Tutor

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland

Sideboard:
4x Vexing Shusher
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Shattering Spree
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Thoughtseize
1x Echoing Truth

This is my latest revision of my list, I know I posted a very similar list a few pages back but I've added some things that I feel should be mentioned. The 4th Vexing Shusher, 2nd Orim's Chant, and Mox Diamond.

The Mox Diamond is my favorite addition, it's excellent post Nauseam when your in need of a beginning mana source. Especially when you draw into several lands, or an extra fetch land. It has also allowed me to play the second Orim's Chant which I really like having again. I would certainly not recommend it if your not playing 13-14 lands.

The fourth Vexing Shusher I also felt was necessary to me because he has been such a Champ against Counterbalance and Threshold decks and he can act as early Blue Elemental/Hydro Blast bait.

Piceli89
07-17-2009, 06:51 AM
Mhm SuperBean, it seems yu have taken the manabase structure of an ANT and have transformed it into 4c. Whcih isn't a bad idea by itself, but i feel iit'd give you far more problems that the normal 5c lands ( you' re totally fetchlands-dependant and therefore stifle would hurt you a lot, and, moreover, you're making wasteland far too relevant, since a wasteland on,say, the only scrubland wouldn't allow you to cast chant anymore).
The 2 moxes seems really random, i think you'd play at least 3. Even if never tested, i also find the Mox Diamond to be pretty much non-suited to be used in this deck. After AN, ofc it's a blast; but before, it's arguably even worse than Chrome, since you aren't going to have 2,3-landers always with 14 lands.
Maybe it's just me, but i think you should at least add a set of rainbow lands, arguably Gemstones, since fetchlands are giving you already a bit of damage and the Cities would give you too much of it.

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Guys, have someone of you tried or taken into account a single Pyroblast maindeck? This deck really screams for a possibility to destroy Counterbalance, i think this is pretty much clear. Chain of Vapor,although being useful with the moxes trick, can't accomplish this task , since it comes into the fucking bastard's curve.
Pyroblast, even if it costs 1 too, can counter proactively that threat and save our ass. I noticed that, in the first phases of the game, we often stay mana open for EOT brainstorms or Mystical. This would allow to Pyroblast Counterbalance, which is something definitely unexpected by on opponent knowing he's facing combo.
I know that this reasoning is , for a good part, built in air because it would be a singleton,but Pyroblast Maindeck to me would add way more advantages that CoV, since it can:
-counter CB;
-in case it lands, destroy it, and not bounce it, which is definitely better;
-protect a Chant before going off, which is golden because Chant resolved really shuts up lots of tempo decks, leaving them with the other counters (stifle/spell snare) in hand;
- even if it happens on rare occasions, a Pyroblast on an enemy Brainstorm is a good move because we deny the possibility to fina answers/counters.
-randomly toss it on a non-blue spell to increase the storm count; this is good when you're going off emptying your hand in order to have your I.Tutor hellbented, and in this occasion it sometimes happened to me that CoV was a burden because i couldn't find/produce the U mana to get it off of my hand, and maybe i had to wait a turn tossing it on an oppo's permanent.

I think it could be a good inclusion; after all,it would be 1 more weapon against blue decks. Cov sucked hard in bouncing what really hurt us, i.e. Chalice and Counterbalance; Pyroblast, at least,can kill one of these 2. The only thing we'd miss of CoV is the possibility to get rid of a Teeg; but, since no one plays Teeg maindeck, Cov could be boarded in game2 (yes, it would be making a swap between the 4thpyroblast sb and the CoV maindeck).
This card already functioned well maindeck in Doomsday lists, and, to me,getting rid of Counterbalance is actually way more important than the possibility to do storm tricks or to bounce a random Tarmogoyf or whatever else. Against nonblue decks, as already said, Cov/echoing truth/Hurkyl's Recall would obviously come in and replace it.

BreathWeapon
07-17-2009, 07:09 AM
MD Pyroblast is just worse than MD Duress, try MDing 4 Duress and SBing 1 Thought Seize before you MD situational disruption/removal.

Bryant Cook
07-17-2009, 07:28 AM
Actually, I kind of like the idea. I'll have to test it out though.

GreenOne
07-17-2009, 08:11 AM
Actually, I kind of like the idea. I'll have to test it out though.
I like it too. But to do it we gotta have a solution in the SB for problematic non-blue stuff (Runed Halo, Confinament etc).

It's ages I'm not playing with CoV in the MD for the 3rd duress, and never missed it. B.Wish (Grapeshot, Maelstrom Pulse, Shattering Spree) is plenty of removal for the little bad stuff people is maindecking.

Bryant Cook
07-17-2009, 09:09 AM
I like it too. But to do it we gotta have a solution in the SB for problematic non-blue stuff (Runed Halo, Confinament etc).

It's ages I'm not playing with CoV in the MD for the 3rd duress, and never missed it. B.Wish (Grapeshot, Maelstrom Pulse, Shattering Spree) is plenty of removal for the little bad stuff people is maindecking.

I'm not packing Maelstrom Pulse. I think it's a wasted sideboard slot. I'm still deciding on what to do with the 3rd Mystical slot in my list.

It could be...
Ponder (4)
Pyroblast (1) or (2, if CoV goes)
Duress (4)
Mana? (1)
Land (12)
????(1)

Piceli89
07-17-2009, 09:25 AM
I'm not packing Maelstrom Pulse. I think it's a wasted sideboard slot. I'm still deciding on what to do with the 3rd Mystical slot in my list.

It could be...
Ponder (4)
Pyroblast (1) or (2, if CoV goes)
Duress (4)
Mana? (1)
Land (12)
????(1)

Are you playing 12 lands now? So I am. But is 4 Ponder really needed ? i found 3 to be a correct number. And 2 mysticals should be enough, since 3 are going to slow up your hand a lot. Before m10,3 was acceptable because the tric with LED was just an insane shortcut to victory. Now, getting 2 in hand is suicide. You lose 2 turns.

Post your latest list, i wanna see.This is what i'm playing so far:
// Lands
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
3 [US] Duress
1 [IA] Pyroblast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor


The only 3cc i would see in the sb could be that new white thing from m10 which gives lifegain too, only for Cb. But it's damnly slow, and i want TES to be the more speed /striaghtforward possible.
I found the sideboard above to be really good and balanced. Against artifacts , you bring Chain, Truth, Recall and a single Spree, and you have 4 maindeck solutions +1 sided,which is generally enough.
And, by the way, that MD Pyroblast is revealing to be teh nutz in my testings. Against blue decks, it is an absolute powerhouse.

Bryant Cook
07-17-2009, 09:50 AM
It could be...
Ponder (4)
Pyroblast (1) or (2, if CoV goes)
Duress (4)
Mana? (1)
Land (12)
????(1)

These are the slots the Mystical could be. Current list is similar to yours, 11 land, 1 cov, 3 mystical. I'm unsure what I'll do yet. I need to get a silence too.

GreenOne
07-17-2009, 12:32 PM
I'd always play the 4th Ponder over the 8th disruption piece. With such a good amount of protection that 4th ponder should be able to find a protection spell for you, but also some other piece you're looking for.

We already took out an IT from the deck. Taking away a Mystical too for a protection spells doesn't make sense. I believe Ponder is the card we're looking for. It's months I'm playing it.

My list is like the lists above, with 12 lands, 4 ponders, 7 protection spells, and floating between 3/4 ITs and 2/3 Mysticals, with this SB:
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 0/1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 3/4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

I still don't know if I'm liking the IT in the SB. Do you wish for it often enough? Wish -> IT -> AdN is quite costy, and against non blue decks wishing for Diminishing Returns and playing it with 3 floating mana is usually doing the work.

BreathWeapon
07-17-2009, 01:28 PM
SB IT is a waste, I'm running +4x mana sources and I'm not reaching 9 mana short of 2xLED. 99% of the time, either Diminishing Returns + 3 mana floating or Empty the Warrens gets it done.

Piceli89
07-17-2009, 02:05 PM
Well, to be honest I like the single Infernal Tutor in the sb. Its purpose is not exclusively the one to grab Ad Nauseam with 9 mana, but it can also help a lot during IGG loops. Moreover,there are times when, with a not explosive hand, it allows you to "convert" a Burning Wish with an Infernal tutor, in order to build a hand with mana accel+tutor as the AN grabber, or other times it may fetch you other pieces. I would definitely keep it in the sideboard, because it makes burning wish capable to grab directly almost everything (except mana), and strenghtens the possibility to make tutors-chains (often i went wish-->it-->tendrils to make the missing 1 spell i needed).

On the other side, I'm thinking about an old suggestion of yours to run Deathmark in the sideboard. i'm thinking what to cut for it, and the candidate i see is Grapeshot, since i can arguably kill with tendrils and mage/runed halo is not common at all in my metagame. Deathmark allows you to kill with less mana your hate bear, and go off the same turn, which was really more dificult with grapeshot.

BreathWeapon
07-17-2009, 03:08 PM
I stand by 1cc removal being the best removal, especially in Death Mark's case, where it destroys every hate bear and T.Goyf.

I really think IT is needed in the MD, Mystical Tutor is just an incredibly bad excuse for threat density in TES.

Completely off the cuff idea, but has any one tried a combination of post-board Tinder Walls, Xantid Swarms or Vexing Shushers to facilitate a SB Natural Order and Progenitus? I'm not really sure what it would accomplish, but Tinker/Colossus would be totally unexpected from us, and it does completely side step traditional Storm hate.

Bryant Cook
07-17-2009, 03:12 PM
I stand by 1cc removal being the best removal, especially in Death Mark's case, where it destroys every hate bear and T.Goyf.

I really think IT is needed in the MD, Mystical Tutor is just an incredibly bad excuse for threat density in TES.

Completely off the cuff idea, but has any one tried a combination of post-board Tinder Walls, Xantid Swarms or Vexing Shushers to facilitate a SB Natural Order and Progenitus? I'm not really sure what it would accomplish, but Tinker/Colossus would be totally unexpected from us, and it does completely side step traditional Storm hate.

I thought about it when Progenitus was first released. It'd only be two sideboard slots too. You just wish for the Natural Order, but you'd have to swap out Pyroblast for Xantid Swarm. Making you weaker to Counterbalance.

EDIT: This means you'd have to sideboard out Ad Nauseam to make sure you don't wreck yourself.

EDIT 2: I just realized you can at this point just returns for the win.

BreathWeapon
07-17-2009, 06:51 PM
I thought about it when Progenitus was first released. It'd only be two sideboard slots too. You just wish for the Natural Order, but you'd have to swap out Pyroblast for Xantid Swarm. Making you weaker to Counterbalance.

EDIT: This means you'd have to sideboard out Ad Nauseam to make sure you don't wreck yourself.

EDIT 2: I just realized you can at this point just returns for the win.

Yeah, Natural Order has the same problem as Infernal Tutor, it either requires additional pieces or mana to address ambiguous situations where Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns could've got the job done regardless.

I SO want to drop Progenitus on some one tho' in live play for shits and giggles.