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Wargoos
09-07-2009, 06:31 AM
Oh, and bryant, mate your 75 has a total amount of 5 Duress.
Just sayin.

Piceli89
09-07-2009, 06:41 AM
Am I the only one that wants a tutor effect for that slot?
I'm running 4 IT MD, but still seems to me that 10 tutors are optimal for the deck, especially if tutors can find acceleration too. I'd not swap Mysticals for acceleration: I like the post SB tutorable cards, and it's the best 3rd tutor the deck has access too. If they print a better tutor or a broken acceleration (sure better than Tinder Wall) I'm going to play that, but right now I like the 2x Mystical package (and I'm not playing with MD bounce).

This. What i meant is that i wouldn't run mysticals if there was a better tutor, but since it doesn't exist and Mystical can grab you a sideboard anti-hate card as well as accel and bombs, it stays in. ANd BW, you can say what you want about the fact that i play -1 tutor,+1 land, ecc, but playing a TES version that abuses Tinder Wall and crappy lands like Paradise or Orchard seems a sort of regression to me. Storm combo shouldn't lose to creature removal, nor to its own lands. The version we're playing atm (all of us except you) is far more stable. Perhaps it loses a bit of speed, but the gains in consistency are far more. And even a fast storm combo like TES nowadays needs consistency with the shitload of problems and hate it has to face. I remember when I used to play with a 10-rainbow lands configuration,and each time i lost 4 lives to my own Orchard tokens or couldn't go beyond 2 lands on the board because of Paradise well it just plain sucked.
And I'm saying this not giving a random look to your list and saying " oo well he plays with tinder wall and ssg-->failure". I tried your list, and wasn't happy with it,especially with the lack of iGG.

De gustibus,man. You'll win way more tournaments than me with TES, but i'm not sold on your version.

Jim Higginbottom
09-07-2009, 10:50 AM
why would you not run igg? it's like one of the best cards in the deck...most of the time i'm even okay with drawing it as i'll either brainstorm it away before i combo off or i'll simply cast it with it/wish in my hand or already in the yard. I'm starting to really hate Ad Nauseam as even though my average cmc is really low I can still lose from 20 life with it as I did this Saturday against enchantress flipping Krosan Grip, 4x Duress, IGG, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 Dark Ritual, 2 Infernal Tutor, 1 Burning Wish, 1 Ponder, 1 Brainstorm.

GreenOne
09-07-2009, 11:15 AM
why would you not run igg? it's like one of the best cards in the deck...most of the time i'm even okay with drawing it as i'll either brainstorm it away before i combo off or i'll simply cast it with it/wish in my hand or already in the yard. I'm starting to really hate Ad Nauseam as even though my average cmc is really low I can still lose from 20 life with it as I did this Saturday against enchantress flipping Krosan Grip, 4x Duress, IGG, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 Dark Ritual, 2 Infernal Tutor, 1 Burning Wish, 1 Ponder, 1 Brainstorm.
His reasoning is: Ad Nauseam is worse when you have IGG in the deck (cc4).
Now, substitute your flipped IGG with Tinder Wall, and you get 3 more life and 1 more accelerant to work with. So you could continue flipping, and a single LED, or double Rite of Flame, or a couple Mox/Petal wins you the game

Bryant Cook
09-07-2009, 11:17 AM
Oh, and bryant, mate your 75 has a total amount of 5 Duress.
Just sayin.

Fixed. The opening post keeps deleting itself when I edit it.

So....when I c/p mistakes happen.

Jim Higginbottom
09-07-2009, 12:00 PM
greenone: he runs 2 ad nauseam so I think it is more appropriate to replace my igg i flipped with with the ad nauseam which is even worse.

Bryant Cook
09-07-2009, 01:10 PM
greenone: he runs 2 ad nauseam so I think it is more appropriate to replace my igg i flipped with with the ad nauseam which is even worse.

Being able to flip down to 4 has made a huge difference to me rather than flipping down to 5. I've also tried a list with only Ad Nauseam as the only high casting cost. Brainfreeze as the kill (Maindeck), and no Ill-Gotten Gains. I don't think it was very good, but it was quite fun.

Jim Higginbottom
09-07-2009, 03:33 PM
The deck plays really well in its current configuration. I was very close to top 8ing in NJ this weekend except I got really unlucky against Alix Hatfield playing zoo and could have possibly won the side event if it wasn't for my ad nauseam flips against enchantress. The only differences in my list are -1 underground sea, -1 infernal tutor, +1 undiscovered paradise, +1 mystical tutor (so my avg cmc is actually less than yours). My sb is currently 1 tendrils, 1 etw, 1 grapeshot, 1 infernal tutor, 1 diminishing returns, 1 ill gotten gains, 1 deathmark, 3 pyroblast, 1 krosan grip, 2 shattering spree, 1 hurkyl's recall, 1 duress.

BreathWeapon
09-08-2009, 01:16 AM
This. What i meant is that i wouldn't run mysticals if there was a better tutor, but since it doesn't exist and Mystical can grab you a sideboard anti-hate card as well as accel and bombs, it stays in. ANd BW, you can say what you want about the fact that i play -1 tutor,+1 land, ecc, but playing a TES version that abuses Tinder Wall and crappy lands like Paradise or Orchard seems a sort of regression to me. Storm combo shouldn't lose to creature removal, nor to its own lands. The version we're playing atm (all of us except you) is far more stable. Perhaps it loses a bit of speed, but the gains in consistency are far more. And even a fast storm combo like TES nowadays needs consistency with the shitload of problems and hate it has to face. I remember when I used to play with a 10-rainbow lands configuration,and each time i lost 4 lives to my own Orchard tokens or couldn't go beyond 2 lands on the board because of Paradise well it just plain sucked.
And I'm saying this not giving a random look to your list and saying " oo well he plays with tinder wall and ssg-->failure". I tried your list, and wasn't happy with it,especially with the lack of iGG.

De gustibus,man. You'll win way more tournaments than me with TES, but i'm not sold on your version.

Preface, I have never, nor will I ever play Undiscovered Paradise and Tinder Wall doesn't lose games to STP unless you were either a bad player or kept a bad hand (which is only relevant in 1 game regardless).

Golden Lands vs Dual Lands is a question of losing to damage or losing to mana constraints. You may have lost games to damage, but I've lost games to mana constraints and I'd rather deal with 1 damage than deal with not being able to Orim's Chant.

TES doesn't address hate with flexibility, TES addresses hate with SPEED. I don't know how every one else has managed to turn TES into DDFT, but Mystical Tutor doesn't deal with Counterbalance and aggro + hate bears is still a joke IMO. You haven't stabilized the deck with more lands and less tutors, you've just made it slower to shore up what's most likely inexperience with mulliganing (no offense).

I'm not saying my version is perfect, or even best, but I'm pretty certain there's something wrong with the current lists, and IMO it's the speed of the deck.

emidln
09-08-2009, 01:24 AM
I don't know how every one else has managed to turn TES into DDFT

For what it's worth, I've been playing Mystical Tutor in TES for a long time (way before Ad Nauseam) due to personal preference and play style. Nobody else agreed with me back then and I'm not quite sure why (other) people play the card now. As far as TES looking more and more like DDFT, I guess you could say that I have some Palpatine-esque manipulation skills.

Removing SSG from the deck has dramatically decreased the speed by decreasing the available IMS count. While people have tried to address this with additional lands, lands have a practical limit on duplicate copies as an IMS forcing a noticeable slowdown. If you wanted to put SSG back in you could run the following with a total CMC of 60 not counting the singleton Ad Nauseam (which is impossible to flip off itself as far as I can tell) if you take Breathweapon's 0-IGG idea:

10 lands
4 ssg
8 artifact initial mana
4 led
8 1 mana rituals
8 blue cantrip
8 2cc tutors
8 1cc protection
1 tendrils
1 ad nauseam

BreathWeapon
09-08-2009, 01:34 AM
I wasn't implying DDFT's strategy is inferior, but I do believe TES needs to do what it does best and not find some shitty half way mark between the two concepts.

emidln
09-08-2009, 01:56 AM
I wasn't implying DDFT's strategy is inferior, but I do believe TES needs to do what it does best and not find some shitty half way mark between the two concepts.

I don't think my remarks conveyed that I thought you implied that. I test a lot of different decks (mostly storm combo, but some very strange stuff). When I play TES in a non-testing capacity (where I use whatever list I glean over AIM from Bryant), I include Mystical Tutor (and have done so for a very long time). I'm more comfortable with the extra tutoring and often found myself in metagames where an increased threat density with slightly decreased speed was an acceptable trade off. Nobody agreed with me when I was running 2-3 Mystical Tutor and 4 Street Wraith for exactly the same reasons people want to run 2-3 Mystical Tutor now (obviously now without Street Wraith and with Ponders) and I'm a bit confused by it.

I agree that TES needs to focus on speed baring new additions to the card pool. Slowing down puts the deck in a perilous situation where it can't consistently race hate while not being able to effectively develop its mana and resources if the hate comes down. In my testing, the reason the deck has slowed down is the lack of additional initial mana sources in Mystical Tutor builds which is why I suggested SSG.

GreenOne
09-08-2009, 04:45 AM
I'm talking about pre-M10 rules, but there was a goldfish session to test Mystical Tutor, that demonstrated that the Mystical wasn't slowing down the deck, at least in comparison to Ponder.

This (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=302455&highlight=88#post302455) were the results:

Better Mystical: 30
Better Ponder: 20
Same: 50

And this were results based on speed only.

out of 79 times Mystical was actually played, the target was:
Dark ritual: 36
AN: 34
IT: 6
Wish: 2
Tendrils: 1
Without the LED trick we can assume that AN has become a worse target, but does this mean that the deck is losing speed playing Mystical?
Maybe we should do another goldfish session?

BreathWeapon
09-08-2009, 07:19 AM
@Emidln

Apologies, I meant DDFT's strategy isn't an inferior strategy, however it's an inappropriate strategy for TES.

The list you posted is my exact list, card for card, with the following SB.

1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Grape Shot
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Thoughtseize
1 Deathmark
1 Simplify (or Hull Breach, I go back and forth)
4 Shattering Spree

@Greenone

Yes, Mystical Tutor, Chain of Vapor and IGG decrease TES's acceleration by a ton - pre M10 M.Tutor and post M10 M.Tutor are worlds apart.

Raindown
09-08-2009, 05:38 PM
@Emidln
The list you posted is my exact list, card for card, with the following SB.


By 8 artifact mana your talking about petals and chrome mox correct? Also how much does it rain on the parade if the AdN get countered? I usually only play one and I just feel lucky.

emidln
09-08-2009, 11:19 PM
By 8 artifact mana your talking about petals and chrome mox correct? Also how much does it rain on the parade if the AdN get countered? I usually only play one and I just feel lucky.

You still have 8 protection spells and Wishes (plus tutors and cantrips to find wishes) to find IGG or Diminishing Returns if necessary.

The list using real card names would be this:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Forbidden Orchard
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

You might want to replace my choice of rainbow lands #9 and #10. Likewise, you might want some other protection package.

Pulp_Fiction
09-08-2009, 11:52 PM
Interesting you don't play 1-3 Mystical Tutor. I always liked running just 2 of them so I could run 1x AdN. But that list does look a lot more like the original TES lists. As for finding AdN, I am assuming it is just LED, Rit, IT or something like that? Just by looking at the list it looks like it would have a really rough Merfolk matchup and not mulligan that well. But I guess it is all preference, I usually preferred 12 lands but as it is, that looks like the most explosive and fast list of TES I have seen.

emidln
09-08-2009, 11:57 PM
Merfolk would be very good postboard where you get to do something like -4 Duress, +4 Pyroblast. Even preboard, I don't actually see it being that rough.

This list is merely trying to focus on speed. I'll leave it to those who actually play TES in tournaments to decide if they want give up some flexibility for raw speed (while i continue to play NLS).

BreathWeapon
09-09-2009, 12:26 AM
Merfolk are kind of a push over, because all they have is FOW since Daze and Stifle are so heavily mitigated by SSG and IT->AdN. You should always have an edge against decks not packing Counterbalance/Spellsnare.

Edit: Undiscovered Paradise should be Forbidden Orchard.

Piceli89
09-09-2009, 09:01 AM
I'll be sincere, lately I have been testing your list, BreathWeapon, and I liked it a lot. Your hybrid of the old-TES skeleton paired with AdNauseam is something really good, and i like the "solidity" of having all as a 4-ofs (except the bombs, of course). I have been goldfishing it a bit and testing too, and I usually went off on the 2nd, max 3rd turn. And i have to admit that without Mystical, the list can function well too, and it gains the so-debated "increase in speed".
BUT i really felt the lack of Ill-Gotten Gains maindeck, and revealing the Apes off AdN wasn't always a really nice thing. The AdN capacity of flipping is, in fact, dramatically worse than the new lists. It happened that i killed myself from 17 lives or so because i flipped too much tutors.
And another thing I'm not really fond of are the 2 Orchards, for obvious reasons. I think that 2 USeas can fit in there too, without compromising the possibility to cast Chant. For red, w already have SSg as a free mana source, so Volcanic shouldn't be needed in here. Cantrips, Duress and Dark rituals are way more important as setup pieces or combo starters. Bryant in his old list used to run 2 Seas aside from the 8 usual rainbow lands, and i think it worked well for him. Ever tried that or you are conservatory on the neceissity of all rainbow lands?
One last question: can the deck with this structure fight in good ways the hate cards coming from g2 and g3 , AND counterbalance? The sb lacks good artifact/enchantment removal (Krosan Grip) because of its cost. Hull Breach goes under CB, and EtW is a way to go around the problem, not to solve it, and it folds to the first EE passing there. And lost of lists playing CB also pack EE (see Dreadstill, Baseruption..).

johanessen
09-09-2009, 12:21 PM
I'll leave it to those who actually play TES in tournaments to decide if they want give up some flexibility for raw speed (while i continue to play NLS).

Which advantatges gives NLS respect to TES?

BreathWeapon
09-09-2009, 12:32 PM
Trust me, IGG = Crutch, you have to get use to Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish chains, but once you do you wont need IGG MD. It's actually really easy to kill with just Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony if you can cantrip into acceleration or bait their counters.

Yeah, flipping SSG is either a blessing or a curse, you just have to accept it's the kind of card that can bite you in the ass from time to time - but it's well worth it. Forbidden Orchards can be either Glimmervoids or a Forbidden Orchard/Glimmervoid split; personally I hate Duals, they've fucked me pretty hard in the past.

I think the deck is fine vs hate, SSG is a counter for Daze and it powers up Shattering Spree like a pimp.as

Unless Burning Wish -> Hull Breach resolves, I just scoop vs Counterbalance - 3cc non-tutorable answers aren't cost efficient and 1cc answers are too easily countered.

emidln
09-09-2009, 01:31 PM
Which advantatges gives NLS respect to TES?

I get to cast Sensei's Divining Top and Doomsday as the expense of being slower than Breathweapon's list and playing less protection than either Bryant or Breathweapon. I get to play more bombs. I'm also really comfortable playing decks with SDT/Mystical Tutor/Doomsday which is a huge edge against opponents.

fearphage
09-10-2009, 02:35 AM
Trust me, IGG = Crutch, you have to get use to Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish chains, but once you do you wont need IGG MD.By "get used to", do you mean "get luckier" and be able to produce 7 mana instead of 5 that IGG generally requires (4 for IGG and 1 to cast the Ritual you'll get back)? If you can tutor as your 5th spell with mana to cast IGG and the ability to re-tutor afterwards, the game is over. I use the cheaper out ("crutch" as you say) because it's a guaranteed win and cheaper in comparison to AN and Diminishing Returns.


It's actually really easy to kill with just Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony if you can cantrip into acceleration or bait their counters.Have you tried playing with no MD kill condition? Although I originally was going to make this just a smart ass comment, it seems relatively easy for you to make lots of mana (consistently?) and wish for the kill. So now I'm genuinely asking. If you can produce enough mana, you can just go 4 Infernal Tutor chain -> Burning Wish -> Tendrils in place of IGG-looping. From previous posts, it sounds like you and/or others just changed your IGG "crutch" for the AN "crutch". At no point did I ever consider flexibility and versatility as a crutch, but to each his own I suppose.

BreathWeapon
09-10-2009, 05:45 AM
If you're playing with more mana, or if you're playing with low life (i.e multiple turns have passed) you can just as easily IT->BW->??? as you can IT-IGG more often than not. If you like mulliganing IGG 1/7 times for that "flexibility" you're so fond of, be my guest. My point is, the IT->BW chains are available for 1 to 2 more mana, more mana you'd have if you ran SSG or Tinder Wall etc.

Ad Nauseam isn't a crutch, you don't have to mulligan Ad Nauseam when you draw it, and the card single handedly made the deck immune to Stifle and recurring/drawing into counters. You kiddies probably never played TES before Ad Nauseam, try it, you'll see how big of a fucking deal it is. I mean seriously, if you're that gay for IGG, just board the damn card in vs Zoo game 2; if you can't come back from a fluke game 1 loss to AdN vs aggro, then you're hopelessly bad.

Edit: Ad Nauseam and IGG cost the same amount of mana, and yes I've played with out Tendrils of Agony, and no I wouldn't play with out Tendrils of Agony again. Not because of the mana cost, but because of Meddling Mage (and drawing it is actually quite good vs control)

fearphage
09-11-2009, 02:29 AM
If you like mulliganing IGG 1/7 times for that "flexibility" you're so fond of, be my guest.Seems we have different levels of luck. I can count on 1 hand how often my opening grip has IGG in it. I rarely even get that unlucky on MWS so mulliganing IGG isn't worth me worrying about at the present.


Ad Nauseam isn't a crutch, you don't have to mulligan Ad Nauseam when you draw it, and the card single handedly made the deck immune to Stifle and recurring/drawing into counters. [condescending drivel removed]I don't know what you mean by crutch. When I say crutch, I mean something you lean on or depend/rely on... like you know... a physical crutch. Since AN debuted, many people have been playing it like it's the only card that ever mattered. Keep in mind I'm not denying the greatness of the card. I'm saying you just traded one card that you rely/depend on (read: crutch) for another. I don't see the relevance of mulliganing to the meaning of the word crutch.

BreathWeapon
09-11-2009, 02:58 AM
Mulliganing is relevant because Ill Gotten Gains requires mulligans and Ad Nauseam doesn't, therefore Ad Nauseam should be your "go to" card because it's A) not a dead draw B) doesn't recur counters C) makes you immune to Stifle. I say Ill Gotten Gains is a crutch because Ill Gotten Gains takes little to no skill and is completely unnecessary in the MD. People play the card because they're either afraid of Ad Nauseam or they're lazy vs aggro, even tho' it's really a liability IMO.

If you've only mulliganed or drawn Ad Nauseam once in recent memory, you seriously aren't playing the deck enough.

Edit: When I say crutch, I mean crutch in the "training wheels" sense of the word.

Bryant Cook
09-11-2009, 09:18 AM
Edit: When I say crutch, I mean crutch in the "training wheels" sense of the word.

This is cute and all, but could you show me results of your list? Since storm combo has been on the map its used Ill-Gotten Gains, getting rid of it because it's a "crutch" is stupid.

Sometimes your opponent will break your leg, you still want to get around don't you? Is your tournament scene wheelchair accessible?

BreathWeapon
09-11-2009, 09:56 AM
This is cute and all, but could you show me results of your list? Since storm combo has been on the map its used Ill-Gotten Gains, getting rid of it because it's a "crutch" is stupid.

Sometimes your opponent will break your leg, you still want to get around don't you? Is your tournament scene wheelchair accessible?

I'm not saying IGG isn't useful, I'm saying IGG isn't necessary MD and it's still in play thru' IT-> BW if worse comes to worse. IGG is only ever a target when Ad Nauseam isn't possible, barring aggro, and I just don't think that situational utility is worth a crap draw.

What Storm use to do before Ad Nauseam and what storm can do now are two different arguments. Yes, Storm was putting up numbers with just IGG, but it's been putting up numbers with out IGG too (AdN variants). I think you have to look at the archetype objectively, here and now, instead of drawing allusions to it's past performances, when Ad Nauseasm wasn't a consideration, to justify its card choices.

For whatever it's worth, the only competitive Magic I play these days is in Moscow - I've top 8ed with that list the last few weeks.

Bryant Cook
09-12-2009, 11:03 AM
I'm not saying IGG isn't useful, I'm saying IGG isn't necessary MD and it's still in play thru' IT-> BW if worse comes to worse. IGG is only ever a target when Ad Nauseam isn't possible, barring aggro, and I just don't think that situational utility is worth a crap draw.

What Storm use to do before Ad Nauseam and what storm can do now are two different arguments. Yes, Storm was putting up numbers with just IGG, but it's been putting up numbers with out IGG too (AdN variants). I think you have to look at the archetype objectively, here and now, instead of drawing allusions to it's past performances, when Ad Nauseasm wasn't a consideration, to justify its card choices.

For whatever it's worth, the only competitive Magic I play these days is in Moscow - I've top 8ed with that list the last few weeks.

I'm the type of man that likes to look at statistics, and deckshows that theres more TES/Ant variants with IGG than without. If more decks are winning with Igg it shows something about the card.

GreenOne
09-12-2009, 11:28 AM
I'm the type of man that likes to look at statistics, and deckshows that theres more TES/Ant variants with IGG than without. If more decks are winning with Igg it shows something about the card.
This can be sometimes not true, especially for a card that was a staple for a long time.

People was playing with 2+ IGG for a lot of time, before realizing 1 was enough.
People played with Cruel Bargain in Doomsday for a long time, before realizing Meditate was enough.
Heck, some people were still playing with Werebear after Goyf's release.

Even if I think that IGG is a great card in the deck, and needed for sure to gain some flexibility and sure win, yours is not that of a point.

Pulp_Fiction
09-12-2009, 03:18 PM
IGG just offers so many free wins and it is a guarnteed win. Ad Nauseam can fizzle, when you do the math and decide to go the IGG route, the combo itself can't fizzle and it is guarnteed victory leaving nothing to chance. And thinking back on all the times I was able to win with very few cards in hand, in particular when playing the old SI lists because of IGG into EtW or a Mystical, Brainstorm, LED, IGG chain into Tendrils. Those kinds of things, IGG is not a crutch, it is an incredible storm enabler. Against aggro decks I always try to setup the IGG loop since it requires you to only be alive to win the game rather than test your luck with AdN against decks running Fireblast. Oftentimes at 10ish life I am a little scared to cast Doomsday against burn but, that situation has a lot of variables. Anyway, point is IGG should not be considered a crutch. There is a reason it is still played, it gives you so many wins and became even better when Silence came into the picture! If you don't want to play IGG in the main, don't, but those double LED, Infernal hands are so great, looking down into that turn 1-2 auto-win, its just beautiful!

BackDr0p
09-15-2009, 01:18 AM
I was just wondering what would happen if we went -2 SSG, +1 IGG, +1 Desperate Ritual with Breathweapon's list? This keeps the mana curve at its current level and allows the inclusion of IGG, which I really love to (LED, LED, IT) for.

MWS testing has been promising, but undeniably Desperate Ritual remains a shitty card only with us a net gain of 1R although it accomplishes its role quite well. I'll see how it goes at this Thursday's tourney.

BreathWeapon
09-15-2009, 02:13 AM
A singleton Tinder Wall is better than a singleton Desperate Ritual, but the difference between an initial mana source and a ritual is pretty huge IMO.

Piceli89
09-15-2009, 08:58 AM
..Or we could take the modern TES list and try to speed it up a bit making -2 Mystical tutor, +2 SSG, which should allow a bit more initial mana sources to power up explosive plays. The problem obviously is that SSG really makes AdN worse; even with only 2 SSGs, 1 IGG and 1 AdN the %s of suiciding or not to have enough life to find a mox or a petal are really higher. Another problem the without Mystical would be to return to that shitty sideboard TES used to have before without ways to consistently remove Counterbalance (KGrip), and losing bouncers such as Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth/CoV to bounce pesky things such as Rule Of Law or Arcane Laboratory (still played by certain enchantress/landstill lists). Then we'd have to always go Wish-->Solution to remove problems, which is a paradox because it would slow down the speed-up version of the deck.
It seems that it's impossible to keep the deck's consistency and the explosiveness it used to have at the same time. When you go all-in on busted plays (Bw's list), you are sometimes opening really shitty hands, plus the impossibility of going IGG is for me (and not only for me, it seems) a big handicap. With our new list, the deck gains a lot in terms of hand-control and consistency, but Mystical tutor is really slow, making the deck more towards ANT than TES in terms of speed, and somehow more weak towards Tempo decks because of the lack of initial mana sources. These days I tried every kind of combination, tweaking 2 to 4 SSGs in either BW's list (where i went -2 SSG, +1 land and +1 IGG), Bryant's list (the changs i said above) and even trying the old TES list again, where the lack of a real busted CA engine (adN for instance) was really hurting.
But still, I didn't arrive to a really satisfactional list.

BreathWeapon
09-15-2009, 12:30 PM
That's because there is no "optimal solution," only solutions which have their own advantages and disadvantages. I'm 99% certain tho' that Mystical Tutor is crappy regardless, because a 1cc tutor for Krosan Grip is no better than a Chain of Vapor (as long as Counterbalance can counter the tutor, it's the same as countering the removal spell). There's just no good way to answer Counterbalance once it resolves, that's why I always try to Duress/Empty the Warrens instead of trying to ice skate uphill.

SuperBean
09-15-2009, 12:41 PM
I think what your saying is incorrect... I've gone the more consistent route with my build of T.E.S and it's paid off pretty well. As far as Counterbalance goes, I play Vexing Shusher and that seems to do quite well against it.

BackDr0p
09-15-2009, 02:12 PM
I might get bashed for saying this, but how about P. Needle's in board to combat CB Top? It's amazingly versatile and can be used against decks packing EE, Children of Korlis, Sadistic Hypnotist, etc. Then again, there are too few targets to make it worth while. Just a suggestion.

BreathWeapon
09-15-2009, 02:25 PM
I think what your saying is incorrect... I've gone the more consistent route with my build of T.E.S and it's paid off pretty well. As far as Counterbalance goes, I play Vexing Shusher and that seems to do quite well against it.

My problem with Vexing Shusher is that it turns Counterbalance into Sphere of Resistance, which isn't really "answering" Counterbalance. That said, I haven't tried Vexing Shusher since Ad Nauseam was printed, so I may have to re-evaluate that.

BackDr0p
09-15-2009, 02:34 PM
When boarding in Shusher, you would typically board in REB's or Pyroblast's to be able to destroy CB undisturbed. Although it acts a like a Sphere of Resistance, it allows you to get rid of a problematic permanent you would normally be unable to answer. It also allows you to bypass annoying stuff such as Chalice of the Void.

@Superbean

How many Shushers are you typically running in your SB?

TiMeWaLk
09-15-2009, 02:52 PM
That's because there is no "optimal solution," only solutions which have their own advantages and disadvantages. I'm 99% certain tho' that Mystical Tutor is crappy regardless, because a 1cc tutor for Krosan Grip is no better than a Chain of Vapor (as long as Counterbalance can counter the tutor, it's the same as countering the removal spell). There's just no good way to answer Counterbalance once it resolves, that's why I always try to Duress/Empty the Warrens instead of trying to ice skate uphill.

Mystical tutor can be played when CB is still on the stack to search Kgrip, not chain of vapor. This is a really big difference. As you say if CB resolves it will be to late.

The Duress solution is risky since your opponent can just brainstorm to hide his CB while the Empty the Warrens solution requires too much mana IMO.

I would recommand Kgrip.

Shusher is also a solution but I think he will fit better in a slower build with more lands and also a way to destroy CB (with REB as proposed previously).

BackDr0p
09-15-2009, 03:21 PM
Mystical tutor can be played when CB is still on the stack to search Kgrip, not chain of vapor. This is a really big difference. As you say if CB resolves it will be to late.

The Duress solution is risky since your opponent can just brainstorm to hide his CB while the Empty the Warrens solution requires too much mana IMO.

Let me put you into perspective, this is TES, not ANT, NLS or DDFT. We do not run 4x Mystical Tutor, nor do we run 14-15 lands. I do admit that from time to time we can, in response MT for K. Grip. Unfortunately more often than not, we will be lacking the necessary mana source to cast the spell or lack the tutor to fetch out our singleton. With that time wasted, most CB players will take advantage of this to float a 3CMC spell on top, or find and drop a second CB to completely lock us out.

As many people mentioned before, TES is a deck that is meant to win before the CB Top soft-lock comes online by using a combination of active and reactive spells (Duress and Pyroblast post-board). Another strategy is to overwhelm the opponent with goblin tokens, forcing him to find a sweeper (EE, E. Truth etc.) or lose. Going the ETW rout is the fastest rout to victory and is surprisingly easy to do when facing a SDT-less CB. Running multiple copies in board is the best way to do this.

Your argument about "not having enough mana" is false. There will be more occasion where you'll be lacking the needed resources to go for a lethal tendrils that ETW. You only need a storm count of 5 for ETW to become a serious threat.

SuperBean
09-15-2009, 03:26 PM
Here is my list, those who asked for it:

Although, once Zendikar is released I'll be changing to: -4 Bloodstained Mire +4 Red/Blue Fetch -1 Scrubland +1 Tundra

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
3x Mystical Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Orim's Chant
1x Wipe Away

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
4x Ponder
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland

Sideboard:
3x Vexing Shusher
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Shattering Spree
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Echoing Truth

Skub
09-15-2009, 03:33 PM
You only a storm count of 5 for ETW to become a serious threat.

True if done within turn 1 or 2. I think you will need to have a protection spell to be able to resolve ETW to avoid FoW, Daze, etc. My experience is that I usally don't have the mana available to cast a protection spell and have enough mana for ETW. Perhaps playing SSG main can help to accomplish this.

BackDr0p
09-15-2009, 04:50 PM
You're right. ETW is only viable if cast during the first few turns. Otherwise, it becomes obsolete since the opponent has enough time and tools to find answers. The list that can abuse ETW the most is Breathweapon's as he has access to many 1R mana sources in the form of SSG and Rite of Flame. Running SSG also mitigates Daze allowing us to up our storm count while frustrating our opponent.

Personally, I never go off without protection unless I have prior knowledge to what my opponent is playing (It's not like I'm not gonna inform myself while waiting for other people to finish their round). With combo, I always prefer to take my time to guarantee a win, rather than going all in with a pair of 2's (metaphorically speaking) and screwing myself over.

However, there are occasions where going off "sans protection" cannot be helped.

Piceli89
09-15-2009, 05:35 PM
Here is my list, those who asked for it:

Although, once Zendikar is released I'll be changing to: -4 Bloodstained Mire +4 Red/Blue Fetch -1 Scrubland +1 Tundra

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
3x Mystical Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Orim's Chant
1x Wipe Away

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
4x Ponder
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland

Sideboard:
3x Vexing Shusher
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Shattering Spree
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Echoing Truth

I don't think your list has much to do with TES. No rainbow lands, the number of them (14), 1 chant, and all the other differences make it more similar to a 4-color ANT build, or to the famous TES hybrid, but with a whole dual 'n' fetch manabase. Does it work?

BackDr0p
09-15-2009, 06:06 PM
Looking at the amount of fetches he runs, he should have no trouble getting the colors he needs. The singleton Scrubland is to be used for Orim's chant (which should be Silence IMO). As for the others he should have no trouble getting the right colored lands to cast his spells. Furthermore, the abundance of shuffle effects makes Brainstorm even more broken in this build.

Now the real question is how it fairs when compared to more traditional TES builds? If we look at the 14 lands, 3 Moxen (2 chrome + 1 Diamond) and the number of Mystical Tutors we can see that it has been heavily influenced by ANT lists. What I like about it, is that is can support multiple K. Grips (if the mana base is tweaked) from the board and be able to successfully cast them. I feel that because of these changes Superbean's list may have a more favorable G1 and even better G2, G3 vs CB. By running Shusher in board the Merfolk MU among others, becomes somewhat easier.

But I have to ask, why Cabal Therapy AND Thoughtseize in the SB. Are they supposed to be SB'd in or are they just there as wish targets. How would you feel about Deathmark in one of the slots, to permanently deal with the commonly played hatebears (Teeg, MM, Canonist, Believer). Would you rather stick to the flexibility of being able to get rid of multiple copies of problematic cards via Burning Wish? The problem I'm seeing here is that your only out to these critters, Canonist and Meddling Mage aside, is EOT ET or Wipe Away.

TiMeWaLk
09-15-2009, 06:38 PM
Let me put you into perspective, this is TES, not ANT, NLS or DDFT. We do not run 4x Mystical Tutor, nor do we run 14-15 lands. I do admit that from time to time we can, in response MT for K. Grip. Unfortunately more often than not, we will be lacking the necessary mana source to cast the spell or lack the tutor to fetch out our singleton. With that time wasted, most CB players will take advantage of this to float a 3CMC spell on top, or find and drop a second CB to completely lock us out.

As many people mentioned before, TES is a deck that is meant to win before the CB Top soft-lock comes online by using a combination of active and reactive spells (Duress and Pyroblast post-board). Another strategy is to overwhelm the opponent with goblin tokens, forcing him to find a sweeper (EE, E. Truth etc.) or lose. Going the ETW rout is the fastest rout to victory and is surprisingly easy to do when facing a SDT-less CB. Running multiple copies in board is the best way to do this.

Your argument about "not having enough mana" is false. There will be more occasion where you'll be lacking the needed resources to go for a lethal tendrils that ETW. You only need a storm count of 5 for ETW to become a serious threat.

The last list posted on this thread plays 3 mystical tutor and 14 lands and as you said, should be able to cast Kgrip quite easily, therefore I do not really understand your first point (I agree this is not a traditional list).

I think you misundertand me about ETW or I just explain my idea badly. You will not have enough mana if CB is on the board and your opponent reveals a land or something which can cut your mana acceleration. I was not comparing ETW and Tendrils.

BackDr0p
09-15-2009, 07:32 PM
I was referring to the "common" TES lists which plays 11-12 lands and 2 Mystical Tutors. Superbean's list is more like a hybrid of two storm archtypes (ANT & TES).

If an opponent blind flips a land, I will by all means, capitalize on the situation. Baiting CB with otherwise unneeded spells first, is a requirement in order to sucessfully play around it. Ignoring the order in which certain spells are played, can cost you games.

SuperBean
09-16-2009, 12:40 AM
Yeah, Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy are wish targets, although I have boarded in Cabal Therapy to accompany Duress a few times.

BackDr0p
09-16-2009, 02:04 AM
Since you run only 5 pieces of protection main deck as opposed to 7-8 do you find yourself having trouble finding it when needed?

SuperBean
09-16-2009, 03:27 AM
I run 6 protection spells before sideboarding, 4x Duress, 1x Wipe Away, 1x Orim's Chant. And no I've never really had an issue finding a protection spell especially when Burning Wish can act as either a bait spell, or a disruption spell from the wish board.

Bryant Cook
09-16-2009, 09:52 AM
I'm working on a switch at the moment. I'll let everyone know what it is after I test it. It hasn't been mentioned yet.

Piceli89
09-16-2009, 09:54 AM
I'm working on a switch at the moment. I'll let everyone know what it is after I test it. It hasn't been mentioned yet.

We're all waiting to see what you'll get from your magical hat.

Bryant Cook
09-16-2009, 09:58 AM
Well fuck it, I'm thinking 1-2 SSG may not be too bad. However, I'm not cutting Mystical or IGG/Tendrils. I'm looking at CoV and Infernal (#4).

Piceli89
09-16-2009, 10:05 AM
Well fuck it, I'm thinking 1-2 SSG may not be too bad. However, I'm not cutting Mystical or IGG/Tendrils. I'm looking at CoV and Infernal (#4).

Lolercake. That's what I tried too.

Jim Higginbottom
09-16-2009, 12:03 PM
I'm testing cutting the 3rd pyroblast in the board for a silence. As it makes the CB matchup slightly worse it improves every other blue matchup.

Piceli89
09-16-2009, 12:49 PM
I'm testing those 2 SSGs and i can say that they're not wonderful, but still they make some difference. But to flip them via AdN still sucks, meh.
The average cost of my build is now 1,22 (counting I'm playing 3 Moxes-which i hate- and 1 Cabal Ritual to avoid shitty hands with 2 moxes. I think putting 2 more initial mana sources makes this doable).

Piceli89
09-16-2009, 05:20 PM
Spell Pierce
U
Counter target noncreature spell unless its controller pays 2.

Another dildo in the ass for us. Lol. It seems that Zendikar is the most concentrate set of anti-storm cards. If Tempo Thresh begins to play this, I see it really hard to overcome it. Paired with Daze and LD, it can pretty much fuck up our plans.

georgjorge
09-16-2009, 05:25 PM
There are far too many creatures out there for this to be played, I think. It's bad against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk or Aggro Loam, which all are/were DTBs, not counting random Tarmogoyfs those deck would want to counter as well.

Piceli89
09-16-2009, 05:39 PM
There are far too many creatures out there for this to be played, I think. It's bad against Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk or Aggro Loam, which all are/were DTBs, not counting random Tarmogoyfs those deck would want to counter as well.

Let's hope it will be as you say. But i fear it'll go in the sideboard, maybe replacing Disrupt..

GreenOne
09-16-2009, 05:42 PM
Could become SB material in UGr or Solidarity (like it matters) in place of disrupt. I don't see an eccessive difference. It's sure worse than Spell Snare so it's not MD stuff.

EDIT: ninjaed by Piceli89!

BreathWeapon
09-17-2009, 10:01 AM
Let's hope it will be as you say. But i fear it'll go in the sideboard, maybe replacing Disrupt..

I don't think it's a huge issue, it doesn't seem MDable, at which point it's competing for either Disrupt or Blue Elemental Blast. It's a really solid counter tho', I bet it sees a lot of play in Vintage, Extended and Standard or maybe it replaces Stifle in tempo aggro-control decks like UGR or goes into Kurtis Zoo.

Jim Higginbottom
09-19-2009, 11:08 PM
Apparently Bryant won at vestal today, I so wish I could of been there but I had to work.

deviant
09-20-2009, 06:41 AM
I demand a report and a new list and stuff.
Obv. congrats and all but really, I just want the report..

dahcmai
09-20-2009, 11:10 AM
Let's hope it will be as you say. But i fear it'll go in the sideboard, maybe replacing Disrupt..

I play Tempo Thresh and I doubt I will replace anything with it in the main. Spell Snare is obviously better due to opposing Goyfs and Confidants being more of a must counter than random instants and such. I will give it a shot in the board though. Disrupt has been a fav for a long time, but I have to admit, being able to hit an artifact is nice. As an added benefit, it will be nice to board in against people who attempt to play around Daze.

I'd expect it soon. I know I'll use it.

Wargoos
09-20-2009, 11:35 AM
Can TES possibly break entomb somehow?

lolosoon
09-20-2009, 11:41 AM
Can TES possibly break entomb somehow?
With IGG, you might turn Entomb into a Demonic Tutor...

But hadn't the IGG plan been dismissed recently ?!

Bryant Cook
09-20-2009, 11:45 AM
Can TES possibly break entomb somehow?

No.

With IGG, you might turn Entomb into a Demonic Tutor...

But hadn't the IGG plan been dismissed recently ?!

No.

Bryant Cook
09-20-2009, 05:33 PM
Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=383932#post383932)

TheBirdMan
09-23-2009, 08:51 PM
I was thinking about building this, is there anything you would change after playing in vestal?

Bryant Cook
09-23-2009, 08:56 PM
I was thinking about building this, is there anything you would change after playing in vestal?

I loved the maindeck all day Saturday. However, the sideboard I feel needs some work. It looks like this currently...

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Krosan Grip
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Hurkyl's Recall

I cut a Pyroblast to make room for the sideboard Infernal Tutor. However, I don't think I want to go back to Pyroblast. If I need the fourth Pyroblast back the only card I see leaving is Krosan Grip. I'm thinking I want to cut Infernal and Hurkyl's Recall for two Deathmark. With the rise of aggro and Gaddeck Teeg, I think it's about time for them.

TheBirdMan
09-23-2009, 08:57 PM
I like deathmark, thats a good idea.

lorddotm
09-24-2009, 02:56 AM
I loved the maindeck all day Saturday. However, the sideboard I feel needs some work. It looks like this currently...

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Krosan Grip
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Hurkyl's Recall

I cut a Pyroblast to make room for the sideboard Infernal Tutor. However, I don't think I want to go back to Pyroblast. If I need the fourth Pyroblast back the only card I see leaving is Krosan Grip. I'm thinking I want to cut Infernal and Hurkyl's Recall for two Deathmark. With the rise of aggro and Gaddeck Teeg, I think it's about time for them.

Wouldn't that lower your threat density too much?
Infernal Tutor in the side is sometimes the only way to win (by fetching Ad Nauseum)

hungryLIKEALION
09-24-2009, 03:11 AM
I have a question for those playing the deck right now. I've been looking at building it, since I enjoy playing storm decks in vintage, and figure it must be just as fun in legacy. However, I don't understand why there is a 3/1 split of Orim's Chant vs. Silence. Isn't Chant just better? Or is this for Cabal Therapy protection? I'm just curious as to what the reasoning behind this choice is.

BreathWeapon
09-24-2009, 03:56 AM
I have a question for those playing the deck right now. I've been looking at building it, since I enjoy playing storm decks in vintage, and figure it must be just as fun in legacy. However, I don't understand why there is a 3/1 split of Orim's Chant vs. Silence. Isn't Chant just better? Or is this for Cabal Therapy protection? I'm just curious as to what the reasoning behind this choice is.

2/2 for Meddling Mage

GreenOne
09-24-2009, 03:59 AM
I have a question for those playing the deck right now. I've been looking at building it, since I enjoy playing storm decks in vintage, and figure it must be just as fun in legacy. However, I don't understand why there is a 3/1 split of Orim's Chant vs. Silence. Isn't Chant just better? Or is this for Cabal Therapy protection? I'm just curious as to what the reasoning behind this choice is.
Meddling Mage, Divert, Misdirection, Cabal Therapy, Runed Halo, etc.

lorddotm
09-24-2009, 04:00 AM
I have a question for those playing the deck right now. I've been looking at building it, since I enjoy playing storm decks in vintage, and figure it must be just as fun in legacy. However, I don't understand why there is a 3/1 split of Orim's Chant vs. Silence. Isn't Chant just better? Or is this for Cabal Therapy protection? I'm just curious as to what the reasoning behind this choice is.

Japanese Foil Silence is cheaper than Orims Chant.
The split is in there simply because Chant is better, but cards like Meddling Mage, Cabal Therapy, and even Divert exist

Piceli89
09-24-2009, 07:09 AM
I loved the maindeck all day Saturday. However, the sideboard I feel needs some work. It looks like this currently...

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Krosan Grip
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Hurkyl's Recall

I cut a Pyroblast to make room for the sideboard Infernal Tutor. However, I don't think I want to go back to Pyroblast. If I need the fourth Pyroblast back the only card I see leaving is Krosan Grip. I'm thinking I want to cut Infernal and Hurkyl's Recall for two Deathmark. With the rise of aggro and Gaddeck Teeg, I think it's about time for them.

I'd still wait to cut the Hurkyl's Recall from the sideboard. With the unban of Metalworker, people will be tempted to build a deck around it, and this is already in progress. If MonoBrown Stax ala MUD becomes to spread, it'll be another painful MU for this deck. Played against it, and TES sucked horribly betweem all Wastelands, Spheres and Chalices. At that point you would only have 2 Sprees, a Truth and a Grip to fight them. But i can ensure you that all these solutions are meh, especially Shattering Spree, which would really be too slow against Trinisphere, Chalice AND Sphere of Resistance (likely to be Sb if not Maindeck in that new build). HRecall is still the best solution for artifact hate. If you want to cut something, cut the 2nd spree or the infernal (which is a bad change IMO because it enables crazy-IGG-"Wish to Nauseam" chains, but well, do what you want) and use that slot for Deathmark.

Jim Higginbottom
09-24-2009, 10:00 AM
My sb is currently:
1 diminishing returns
1 grapeshot
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 deathmark
1 hurkyl's recall
2 shattering spree
2 pyroblast
1 ill-gotten gains
1 infernal tutor
1 silence
1 duress
1 krosan grip

I really like the deathmark and I'd add another if there was room but I just don't see it. I cut the third pyroblast for a silence as it's better against all of our blue matchups except counterbalance and as there is a rise in aggro I think we'll start facing the mirror as well as ddft and ant more often in which it can be whoever draws more chants/silences wins.

I'd like to cut ETW but it is so good on the play against dragon stompy and some other random jank in what is otherwise a almost unwinnable match.

Jim Higginbottom
09-24-2009, 10:14 AM
Also, I actually prefer silence over orim's chant as I've never won a game because of the kicker and I did lose a match because of a chant being misdirected.

Bryant Cook
09-24-2009, 12:57 PM
Also, I actually prefer silence over orim's chant as I've never won a game because of the kicker and I did lose a match because of a bad faeries w/ cb+top player misdirecting my chant.

To be blunt, this is dumb - same with playing 2 blast.

Piceli69- I've yet to ever actually cast Hurkyl's Recall, I added it then haven't seen artifacts since. If I was to keep Hurkyl's, either Echoing Truth or Grip would have to leave. Cutting a spree is an option to keep Hurkyl's in the sideboard, but I'm unsure of how good it'll be compared to Spree.

As for Infernal tutor in the sideboard, it's not needed. I've gone 24 rounds in magic without once wishing for it. Is that worth the sideboard slot?

BreathWeapon
09-24-2009, 01:43 PM
It's not, SB IT is so win more ... and at the cost of cutting your threat density too.

Bryant Cook
09-24-2009, 01:48 PM
It's not, SB IT is so win more ... and at the cost of cutting your threat density too.

Well I'm not moving it back to the maindeck either.

BreathWeapon
09-24-2009, 01:53 PM
Well I'm not moving it back to the maindeck either.

If you're comfortable with your density then just cut it, it's not like you're obligated to play the set.

Jeff Kruchkow
09-24-2009, 07:04 PM
As to the spree vs stax case, I brought up meltdown a while ago and this seems good in that matchup because, while we risk losing a chrome mox, it allows us to hit all the spheres, trinis, and chalices for 4 mana.

Piceli89
09-25-2009, 05:36 AM
As to the spree vs stax case, I brought up meltdown a while ago and this seems good in that matchup because, while we risk losing a chrome mox, it allows us to hit all the spheres, trinis, and chalices for 4 mana.

Same for me, when it comes to killing Trini and a Cotv @1, Spree costs 5 and kills only it, Meltdown costs 4 and kills Trini and Chalice(s) and every other thing.

lorddotm
09-25-2009, 05:46 AM
Same for me, when it comes to killing Trini, Spree costs 4 and kills only it, Meltdown costs the same and kills Trini and every other thing.

Umm when Shattering Spree is paid for under Trinisphere, you get the replicate. For example if I paid RRU for shattering spree when there is a trini, I can kill it and another target.

Meltdown is bad because it is easier to have countered.

yankeedave
09-25-2009, 05:49 AM
Umm when Shattering Spree is paid for under Trinisphere, you get the replicate. For example if I paid RRU for shattering spree when there is a trini, I can kill it and another target.



Wow - does that actually work? I have never come across that before. Surely, the mana used to pay the extra to make it 3 is spent when the spell resolves? Why would you still have mana to replicate?

Dave

Piceli89
09-25-2009, 05:54 AM
Umm when Shattering Spree is paid for under Trinisphere, you get the replicate. For example if I paid RRU for shattering spree when there is a trini, I can kill it and another target.

Meltdown is bad because it is easier to have countered.

Meltdown can be countered, but does Dragon Stompy/Stax play FoW? I don't think so. Well, Faerie Stompy? A dead deck.
Plus, a good thing about Meltdown over SSpree is that, with 2 USeas in your deck, you can still use them for Meltdown, whereas with SSpree they would be an obstacle. Meltdown is reeally good in a 1/1 Split with Spree if you're also packing more than 11 lands and less than 4 Chrome Moxes, as I do. It is really mana hungry, but in 3Sphere situations it is >>to Spree since it pretty much does ShatterStorm, while the latter is as much as costy but with a narrower range of action. in spite of this, i admit that Spree>>Meltdown in killing Canonists and such, but well, for that you already pack Grapeshot/Deathmark.

lorddotm
09-25-2009, 05:55 AM
Wow - does that actually work? I have never come across that before. Surely, the mana used to pay the extra to make it 3 is spent when the spell resolves? Why would you still have mana to replicate?

Dave

Acordding to my local judge (lvl 2) it does.

GreenOne
09-25-2009, 06:06 AM
Let's clarify the rules about Shattering Spree to everybody:

Shattering Spree vs Chalice of the Void (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14556&highlight=shattering+spree): Chalice only counters the original spell, not the replicated copies.

Shattering Spree vs Trinisphere (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12983&highlight=shattering+spree): Replicate is an additional cost, so if you replicate your Spree, spending RRR on it, it actually costs 3 for trinisphere purposes.


Summing it up, if the opponent has a Chalice@1 and a Trinisphere in play, you can kill them both with Shattering Spree, paying :R::R::R: (the original gets countered, one copy goes to chalice, and the other one to trinisphere. Total cost = 3, so trini does not affect it) .

I know, it feels like cheating. But isn't that how it is supposed to be with combo decks? :cool:

yankeedave
09-25-2009, 06:17 AM
Ahh, ok, I see what you did there. Thanks for the links, I will be sure the stomp face next time I play against my local Stax player!

Dave

Piceli89
09-25-2009, 08:13 AM
Let's clarify the rules about Shattering Spree to everybody:

Shattering Spree vs Chalice of the Void (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14556&highlight=shattering+spree): Chalice only counters the original spell, not the replicated copies.

Shattering Spree vs Trinisphere (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12983&highlight=shattering+spree): Replicate is an additional cost, so if you replicate your Spree, spending RRR on it, it actually costs 3 for trinisphere purposes.


Summing it up, if the opponent has a Chalice@1 and a Trinisphere in play, you can kill them both with Shattering Spree, paying :R::R::R: (the original gets countered, one copy goes to chalice, and the other one to trinisphere. Total cost = 3, so trini does not affect it) .

I know, it feels like cheating. But isn't that how it is supposed to be with combo decks? :cool:

Oh didn't really know about it. Ok, that's a really good news, and a thumb up for SSpree. But i'd still give Meltdown a chance.

BreathWeapon
09-25-2009, 09:07 AM
Oh didn't really know about it. Ok, that's a really good news, and a thumb up for SSpree. But i'd still give Meltdown a chance.

Meltdown is a liability vs FoW/Chalice decks and Gaddock Teeg, I don't really see any reason to run it.

Piceli89
09-25-2009, 09:14 AM
Meltdown is a liability vs FoW/Chalice decks and Gaddock Teeg, I don't really see any reason to run it.

You need to cast Meltdown against a deck w/ gaddock teeg? You meet so many Faerie Stompies at your own tournaments? I don't.

Bryant Cook
09-25-2009, 09:30 AM
You need to cast Meltdown against a deck w/ gaddock teeg? You meet so many Faerie Stompies at your own tournaments? I don't.

You realize theres magic players out there who aren't good at magic right? Not to mention, I've played against Aggro Loam where they have Chalice and Teeg out. Faerie Stompy makes the occasional appearance here in the northeast US. Why play a worse card (Meltdown), because you're saying decks are dead. The only time I'd ever want meltdown over Shattering Spree is if Affinity was huge in the metagame. But sadly, robots will never be as cool as mermaids.

Jim Higginbottom
09-25-2009, 09:41 AM
I'm actually kind of surprised not everyone knew how replicate worked.

Edit: I probally play against more stax and dragon stompy than anyone else that plays TES so I'm definitley keeping hurkyl's recall and my 2 shattering sprees.

BackDr0p
09-25-2009, 10:41 AM
I have to agree with you Lebron Jim. Up here in Montreal, we get at least 2-3 Stompy players and 1-2 Stax pilots at (more or less) every large event. Then again, my meta calls for the slots.

Personally, I like having the flexibility in my SB, but I'm still torn.

Bryant Cook
09-25-2009, 03:48 PM
The opening post keeps deleting itself, not to mention, this thread is 105 pages long, click here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15028) for the new TES thread.