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Bryant Cook
12-24-2007, 12:09 PM

Whit3 Ghost
12-24-2007, 02:33 PM
Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Lotus Petal, and Chrome Mox.
This hand has 2 possible choices, a turn one Warrens for 12, or waiting a turn, hoping for a playable spell, and attempting to tendrils for 20 the second option can be dangerous because of drawing dead and being forced to Warrens turn 2. I'll walk through both ways.
1. Play Petal, Petal, Mox, imprinting Burning Wish, cast both Rituals, and Tutor up the Warrens.

2. Draw. If the draw is any piece of acceleration, your play is Petal, Ritual, Tutor for a new Ritual, Ritual, Ritual, Petal #2, Mox, (Petal, Crit,LED,Mox), Burning Wish getting Tendrils, Tendrils for 20.

In most situations I'd much rather go for the Warrens, because it puts your opponent on FOW/EE/Clasm or lose while the second scenario brings Daze, Stifle and Discard into the equation.


Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Orimís Chant, Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain, Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox.

Petal, Ritual, Bargain. Draw into Burning Wish, SSG, LED, Rite. Mox imprinting Brainstorm, Brainstorm into Mox, Infernal, Paradise, Putting back Chant, Infernal. Mox for storm, Paradise, RFG SSG, LED, Rite, Wish-> Tendrils, Tendrils for 20.

Simian Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Ill-Gotten Gains, Ponder, Lotus Petal, Lionís Eye Diamond and City of Brass.

Land, Ponder (Land, Land, Wish), Draw Wish, SSG, SSG, LED, Petal, Wish, Warrens for 10.

Lionís Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Simian Spirit Guide, Gemstone Mine, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, and Infernal Tutor.

This is an easy one. SSG Rite of Flame, Ritual, Land, Ritual, Infernal for LED Number 2 with BBR floating, LED, LED, Infernal number 2, IGG loop for the win.

Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise, Chrome Mox, Ponder, Diminishing Returns, Dark Ritual, and Ill-Gotten Gains.
In this hand, I attempted to go turn 1 ponder, Turn 2 Dreturns with the ability to float B. I drew about 4 tutors off of Returns and fizzled.

Finn
12-24-2007, 03:07 PM
Bryant, I love the "Sample Hands for You" idea. Thanks for the update.

matelml
12-24-2007, 08:42 PM
Why is a new thread created? It seems like the Solidarity thread is doing just fine with 100 pages. Also I just made a post I hoped getting some response to and now nobody will look at the other thread anymore:cry: .

Peter_Rotten
12-24-2007, 08:50 PM
Why is a new thread created? It seems like the Solidarity thread is doing just fine with 100 pages. Also I just made a post I hoped getting some response to and now nobody will look at the other thread anymore:cry: .

Why not simply cut and past that post here? I bet more ppl will be looking at a new, cleaned up thread anyway.

matelml
12-24-2007, 09:25 PM
Why not simply cut and past that post here? I bet more ppl will be looking at a new, cleaned up thread anyway.

Ok:wink:

I made top 8 at the Belgian Championship (129 players) with TES yesterday with 5-1-2. Only lost in T8 from Dragonstompy (main Chalice+3sphere can hurt). The draws were ID's against UWb Landstill and some mono R aggresive Control when I was 5-0-1 anyway. The metagame was really good for me, the most played decks was Loam I think, after that Thresh hybrids and then pretty much anything, including a fair amount of Aggro, much Board Control, and some Landstill.
There was another TES deck with 5-2, and there was one that was 4-0-1 the last time I checked it, but probably lost the rounds after that.

My list was a little different from the one I came in 2nd with at the Dutch Championship. The changes were: -1 Tomb of Urami, -2 EtW, -1 Chrome Mox, -Sb Rough//Tumble, +1 Tarnished Citadel, +2 Ponder, +1 Simian Spirit Guide, +1 Sb Ponder.

The whole decklist:

4 Orim's chant

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Plunge into Darkness
3 Ponder

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox
1 Simian Spirit Guide

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Xantid Swarm

I was happy with the changes and the whole decklist except for the Ponder Sb. I knew it wouldn't be very good, but I thought Rough//Tumble was worse. But it's probably a little better, I am still searching for a good wishable card or something that matters when you board it in once.
The reasoning for the SSG was that having double Mox always sucks.
I added the Ponders because it gives you more options and doesn't force you to go for tokens and I found the EtW would often be a dead card.
Because I have 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder and 4 Chant I decided to take out Tomb for something that can cast those spells. It was good and I never had a problem with the life, I even Ponderd off it turn 1 against Goyf sligh and it didn't matter at all. Remember you can use for free colorless mana.

I believe this to be the almost optimal list. I can only imagine Cabal Ritual to be a little less good in some metas, because in my meta there is usually a lot of Pikula/Pox/MBAggro. So I would like to hear your opinions and criticisms.

Mental
12-24-2007, 11:56 PM
Hey Bryant. I was wondering if you could answer my question on the old thread about sideboarding against dedicated control (Like Landstill...Standstill REALLY hurts). Basically, I want to bring in 4x Pyroblasts and 2x Abeyances, but I can't decide what to brng out.

BreathWeapon
12-25-2007, 12:17 AM
Ok:wink:

I made top 8 at the Belgian Championship (129 players) with TES yesterday with 5-1-2. Only lost in T8 from Dragonstompy (main Chalice+3sphere can hurt). The draws were ID's against UWb Landstill and some mono R aggresive Control when I was 5-0-1 anyway. The metagame was really good for me, the most played decks was Loam I think, after that Thresh hybrids and then pretty much anything, including a fair amount of Aggro, much Board Control, and some Landstill.
There was another TES deck with 5-2, and there was one that was 4-0-1 the last time I checked it, but probably lost the rounds after that.

My list was a little different from the one I came in 2nd with at the Dutch Championship. The changes were: -1 Tomb of Urami, -2 EtW, -1 Chrome Mox, -Sb Rough//Tumble, +1 Tarnished Citadel, +2 Ponder, +1 Simian Spirit Guide, +1 Sb Ponder.

The whole decklist:

4 Orim's chant

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Plunge into Darkness
3 Ponder

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Chrome Mox
1 Simian Spirit Guide

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Xantid Swarm

I was happy with the changes and the whole decklist except for the Ponder Sb. I knew it wouldn't be very good, but I thought Rough//Tumble was worse. But it's probably a little better, I am still searching for a good wishable card or something that matters when you board it in once.
The reasoning for the SSG was that having double Mox always sucks.
I added the Ponders because it gives you more options and doesn't force you to go for tokens and I found the EtW would often be a dead card.
Because I have 4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder and 4 Chant I decided to take out Tomb for something that can cast those spells. It was good and I never had a problem with the life, I even Ponderd off it turn 1 against Goyf sligh and it didn't matter at all. Remember you can use for free colorless mana.

I believe this to be the almost optimal list. I can only imagine Cabal Ritual to be a little less good in some metas, because in my meta there is usually a lot of Pikula/Pox/MBAggro. So I would like to hear your opinions and criticisms.

4 Cabal Rituals and 0 Draw 4s?

I don't understand the reasoning for cutting Simian Spirit Guide for Cabal Ritual when the deck has problems with resolving Orim's Chant on the combo turn, which is where Simian Spirit Guide is worthwhile in producing the R for Right of Flame or Burning Wish and where Cabal Ritual is worthless.

I'd rather run 4xTinder Wall instead of Simian Spirit Guide, if there's a problem with Simian Spirit Guide, at least it gives the deck another 1 drop.

Bryant Cook
12-25-2007, 01:19 AM
Hey Bryant. I was wondering if you could answer my question on the old thread about sideboarding against dedicated control (Like Landstill...Standstill REALLY hurts). Basically, I want to bring in 4x Pyroblasts and 2x Abeyances, but I can't decide what to brng out.

How I sideboarded for Threshold in the opening post is pretty much how I sideboard vs. Everything.

@Matelml- Why 4 Cabal Ritual and 0 Draw 4's? They're absolutely bombtastic, atleast test them. They're a lot better than Plunge into Darkness. 3 Chrome Mox and 1 Simian Spirit Guide seems weak, along with 11 lands. Test my last list then yours, after that compare weaknesses and strengths. By the looks of it mine will run smoother.

matelml
12-25-2007, 10:18 AM
Ok, I'll copy your list and play with it against my friends. Against them I can't test everything but I can play against 4C Landstill, Meathooks, Threshhold, 4C Fish, Solidarity, Elves!, MUC, Loam. Obviously not all the best MU's, but good enough for testing.
The reason I play 4 Cabal Ritual and 1 SSG is that it actually happens enough that I have Threshhold to be relevent cause of my meta and if you play 4 SSG I thnk it will lower your ability to create 9 storm significantly, especially since you can't return it with IGG. It does ofcourse happen I need R so I was already in doubt wether to play 1 SSG/4Cabal or 2 SSG/3Cabal. In the end I opted for the former. Remember I play 1 extra 5C land, which helps and extra Ponder, which also finds colored sources. I understand extra cantrips will slow you down, but I think it's worth it because many times you won't need the speed and then the consistancy is very nice.

About Chant, in most MU's you don't have to Chant during your turn and can use it as a timewalk. However in the other MU's it is very important to play, but these MU's tend to be a little slower so I can usually just wait untill I have enough colored sources, if I don't already. I understand this isn't prefered cause of the chance they will draw more disruption, but it seems to work fine. Again I will try your list. Ofcourse I tried it all before but not that exact configuration, just the ideas apart and now I will try a little more extensive.

About the Draw4's: I tried them briefly, but I think they are not good enough, they are ok, but not great. I played a long time without Plunge, but added them again, because if you play him correctly he is very strong. I usually prefer 1 LED/Dark Ritual or Wish/Tutor over 4 random cards that you need to invest acceleration in. Yes, you will usually win if it resolves, but it's harder to cast and with Plunge I am more certain I will win next turn. Another pro is that it finds Chant and what also happens is these hands that have LED, Plunge + Accel. Then you can make mana, play Plunge, sac LED and go for 1st turn EtW or what happened at the Belgium Champs, ToA for 20 1st turn. Also the lifeloss, is way more relevant with the draw4's cause you usuallu need to pass the turn. I will see, but maybe you can try this configuration too.

Edit: The 3 Chrome Moxes seem fairly obvious to me, it's just always bad to have 2. It's not even important to have 1, so I don't see the problem. People gave arguments against it like "it's a neccesary evil" and "It's vital to be fast enough". That seems like speculation and is pretty hard to argue against. Adding 1 SSG over 1 Mox is just almost always better, except for some lists when you don't feel like being diqualified. So if you are already playng 4 SSG, then I am not sure what to do, I am testing that now.

despo
12-25-2007, 01:54 PM
There was another TES deck with 5-2, and there was one that was 4-0-1 the last time I checked it, but probably lost the rounds after that.


I also played TES at Belgian Championship, probably the one you saw at 4-0-1, and i ended up 5-1-1, finishing just outside T8 (resistance). My only loss was against landstill and the draw was intentional, but it didn't have the effect I hoped for.

I played about the same list as wastedlife, but with dark confidant in stead of ponders and draw4's. I was very satisfied with them, but if I expected less control I would probably play the draw4's.

Volt
12-30-2007, 11:52 PM
.

Pinder
12-31-2007, 12:50 AM
My only suggestions would be Deathmark and Goblin War Strike for the sideboard.

Deathmark I can see, but really Goblin War Strike just seems like win more to me. If you EtW, odds are you have enough Goblins to win anyway. Lots of damage from a spell that costs :r: is pretty nifty, but hardly necessary.

Silvoz
12-31-2007, 09:43 AM
Deathmark I can see, but really Goblin War Strike just seems like win more to me. If you EtW, odds are you have enough Goblins to win anyway. Lots of damage from a spell that costs :r: is pretty nifty, but hardly necessary.

The thing with War Strike is, that it enables you a faster kill, which sometimes could be needed to outrun opposing creatures or just to kill your opponent before he/she is able to drop EE or Deed. IMO The War Strike is a possible card for the board but not a must play.

NQN
12-31-2007, 11:43 AM
I played four tournaments with TES now and my record in matches is 15-2-2 . Iīm really happy about it and will continue winning with it :) THe only question i have if the Contract in the SB is really needed cause i only wished it once to outdraw a counter where duress would have done the same job. Are there any options i could play maybe against Discard cause i have to face it 2-3 times per tourney. My current SB is:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 EtW
1 iggy
1 Returns
1 Tendrils
1 Pyroclasm
1 Duress
1 Contract
1 Tranquility
1 SHattering Spree
1 Cave-In

Maybe another Spree? What do you think? How often do you play wish on contract?

NQN

Silvoz
12-31-2007, 12:09 PM
I played four tournaments with TES now and my record in matches is 15-2-2 . Iīm really happy about it and will continue winning with it :) THe only question i have if the Contract in the SB is really needed cause i only wished it once to outdraw a counter where duress would have done the same job. Are there any options i could play maybe against Discard cause i have to face it 2-3 times per tourney. My current SB is:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 EtW
1 iggy
1 Returns
1 Tendrils
1 Pyroclasm
1 Duress
1 Contract
1 Tranquility
1 SHattering Spree
1 Cave-In

Maybe another Spree? What do you think? How often do you play wish on contract?

NQN

This board looks a little weird to me. Only 2 blasts and a Cave-In in addition to clasm? I think best way here would be replaycing the Cave-In with a blast and if you don't like the Contract at all, a second Spree isn't bad, i did it the same way, because I never wished for it, too. As Bryant already said as a one-of Thoughtseize is better then duress cause of its ability to hit creatures as well, these 2 Life should not be relevant.

Bryant Cook
12-31-2007, 12:14 PM
Maybe another Spree? What do you think? How often do you play wish on contract?

Burning Wish for Contract is one of my most common plays since it's one of the deck's strongest cards. I personally feel that you need them maindeck and sideboard since it allows you to recover against discard and control. It also ups the storm count dramatically so that you don't have to Returns or Ill-Gotten Gains. Playing too many pyroclasm effects in the sideboard is redundant and unnecessary one of these should definitely be a blast. 2 Shattering Spree is weak, if you're going to play more than one the number should be 3.

As for Goblin War Strike, I like it in builds with 3 ETW maindeck so that the card could actually be used. But even back then I only used it once every twenty or so games. I really think it's a win more, with Burning Wish for Duress to hit their deed or EE it's somewhat like the same card. Although, I'm using thoughtseize now.

andrew77
12-31-2007, 12:52 PM
I don't find myself wishing for contract all to often either. I like it though as it's something to board in against discard decks for chant. Its also something you do wish for once in a while. I remember running goblin war strike for about 3 months and not wishing for it once in tourny play or testing.

Dr.Kokusho
01-01-2008, 12:51 AM
Hello everyone. I would just like to say the deck is great and I love goldfishing with it!!!

Since Orims chant is way out of my budget I just use 4 duress in its stead. Now may I ask in what ways is chant superior since duress can also bait counters, disrupt combo decks and is a better mox imprint than chant. Also can I ask for other suggestions to the slots dedicated to chant other than duress

More power to T.E.S.!!!

emidln
01-01-2008, 01:15 AM
Hello everyone. I would just like to say the deck is great and I love goldfishing with it!!!

Since Orims chant is way out of my budget I just use 4 duress in its stead. Now may I ask in what ways is chant superior since duress can also bait counters, disrupt combo decks and is a better mox imprint than chant. Also can I ask for other suggestions to the slots dedicated to chant other than duress

More power to T.E.S.!!!

Situation 1:

You Duress an opponent who has Underground Sea, Tundra untapped and 2 cards in hand. Both are Counterspell. You take counterspell and attempt to combo out. They still Counterspell a ritual or a business spell.

You Chant an opponent who has Underground Sea, Tundra untapped and 2 cards in hand. Both cards are still Counterspell, but now an opponent can either counter Chant and lose to resolved rituals and business, or let Chant resolve and lose to resolves rituals and business.

Situation 2:

You Duress an opponent and take their only Counterspell. You now cast Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns. Your opponent returns/draws a Counterspell and uses it. You lose.

You Chant an opponent and they use two mana to Counterspell. Now, you cast an Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns. Your opponent now has less mana to cast further counterspells because they were forced to counter chant

Situation 3:

You resolve Duress and see no Counters. You cast Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns and your opponent returns/draws a counterspell. Now you need mana for another Duress and a Duress to go off safely, assuming of course they didn't draw two Counterspells.

You resolve Chant and see no Counters. You can now freely cast Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns without fear of an opponent drawing into something to stop you.

NQN
01-01-2008, 08:05 PM
I donīt tink Seize is better than duress because you wonīt play Turn 1 Wish at seize just because you might hit a meddling mage and if you do it later they will always play they`re mage b4 you can discard it. I added 2 Clasm because sometimes it happens that i need a sweeper NOW and don`t have the mana to cast wish and clasm but sometimes i just need to kill Gaddock Teegs. I play 2 Blasts because i donīt want to board 6 Cards out against U Control since 9 cards seems enough to me.
NQN

Bryant Cook
01-03-2008, 02:06 PM
I donīt tink Seize is better than duress because you wonīt play Turn 1 Wish at seize just because you might hit a meddling mage and if you do it later they will always play they`re mage b4 you can discard it. I added 2 Clasm because sometimes it happens that i need a sweeper NOW and don`t have the mana to cast wish and clasm but sometimes i just need to kill Gaddock Teegs. I play 2 Blasts because i donīt want to board 6 Cards out against U Control since 9 cards seems enough to me.
NQN

Thoughtsieze is better than Duress because you can hit Cephalid Breakfast combo pieces. Breakfast is a bad match-up you want to do anything you can to improve it. Also, we don't care about Meddling Mage we care about other creatures like Gaddeck Teeg. Here's an example. Land go, Land go. land pitch SSG Burning Wish, Thoughtsieze out Gaddeck Teeg and/or problematic card. Two Clasm effects is redundant and unnecessary and I stand by it. Blast destroy's counterbalance and Meddling Mage, Blast is one of the reasons we don't care about the magi. I'm not going to argue SBing against control it's pointless.

Lemuria
01-03-2008, 02:10 PM
I got almost all the cards that I need to play this deck. Can you post an updated list for reference?

matelml
01-03-2008, 02:13 PM
Just look at the first page, it's a fairly recent list.

NQN
01-04-2008, 10:38 AM
In your example,Bryant, the Opponent also got 2 Lands so he will play Gaddock Teeg b4 you will hit it with Seize. But because i love you deck I will add Thoughtseize for the next 70+ Tournament and post my results then :) Do you still play the Extract btw?
NQN

Bryant Cook
01-04-2008, 03:33 PM
In your example,Bryant, the Opponent also got 2 Lands so he will play Gaddock Teeg b4 you will hit it with Seize. But because i love you deck I will add Thoughtseize for the next 70+ Tournament and post my results then :) Do you still play the Extract btw?
NQN

In the example, you're on the play so you have 2 lands to their 1. Nope on extract. After the winter wonderland event tomorrow I'll post the last 2 list I've been using. The list that I got 2nd with at the Comix Zone event and the list from the states event.

Bryant Cook
01-07-2008, 09:22 PM
Alright, I ended up 2nd at Comix Zone's end of the year event. Then at the main event of the Winter Wonderland I ended 4-2 (respectable but not good in my eyes), then 5-0 taking first in the side event. I've been messing around with the SB a lot lately, nothing to the maindeck (Besides name changes [For Example: 2 Infernal Contract, no Bargain]).

Sideboard for Comix Zone
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cruel Bargain
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:4 Thoughtsieze
SB:1 Pyroclasm
SB:1 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:3 Pyroblast

Winter Wonderland Event
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cruel Bargain
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Thoughtsieze
SB:1 Tranquility
SB:1 Pyroclasm
SB:1 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:2 Abeyance
SB:3 Pyroblast

4x Thoughtseize at all times was just meh, it wasn't needed and barely helped if at all over Chant. I lost a match because I couldn't timewalk with Chant. I also missed the additional Chant effect in Xantid or Abeyance in the sideboard.

Choobak
01-11-2008, 07:02 AM
I play a 48 players tournaments in paris.

For this tournament, I decide to play TES, deck that I play since quite some time, further to the first post of Wastedlife on the source. I knew already well the mechanics of this kind of deck with IGGy pop whom I had played in tournaments last year.

Then first of all the list:

// Lands
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
2 [MI] Infernal Contract
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [MI] Infernal Contract
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [IN] Tranquility
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm

It is the last list of Wastedlife which seemed to me powerful, capable of hyperbrokens turn 1 and that I played since Christmas. Before, I played with the version with 4 dark confidant who bit very well too. With the time maybe whom this last one would have been better...

Round 1: Mathieu with Affinity

1/I lose the D-roll. The first one is a party of health: Etw to 12 with a hand of departure ITx2, IGG, rite of flame, Chrome-plates mox x2, city. T2, I plays Burning wish for thougseize which removes a mitraine, The ultimate luck for him to survive. 1-0
2/The second is the beginning of my misfortune: I mulligan to 5 because of full hand of tutor or with land / mox. I manage to leave in an ETW in 10 to spare time, but he has atog, 2 orni, mitraine, cranial, a land(ground) blue arto and nexus. He can block and kill me with the orni equiped. Ouch ! 1-1
3/And it restarted for a muligan to 5 (wholesale even reason as the party. I keep a hand which allows me to look for SS to slow down him. He play me a land and an arto lorwin which allows to make mana. In my turn, I crack his both arto, but next he puts follower and leaves too fast. 1-2 begin well...

0-1-0

Round 2: BenoÓt (kyros) with a BR aggro

1/I loses the D-roll. I leave T3 with 12 gob. He has disto and dark confidant. He bit me very fast with Blood Lust and ends me in my turn 4 in spite of the kicked orim's Chant in his turn 3 with 2 incinerate. (a draw4 bit me too). 0-1 pffff
2/Fortunately, I begin with a magnificent T2 or 3 tendrils at 24 without that he can make something (draw4 and diminishing returns were magic!) 1-1
3 / Apothťose: tendril T1 in 30! 2-1
1-1-0 ( :) the deck operate not so badly)

Round 3: Gilles and his deck helme top.
My dark beast : I already have lost against him and his deck with Cephalid dreadnought breakfast in Pontoise. We were seated at the neibourgh table round 1: we know what we play.
1/And he keeps a hand with 2 EE + counterbalance top... he leaves for combo and kills me T2 or 3. 0-1
I bring in 3 pyroblast, 1 REB and 2 xantid against 2 ponder 2 cabal, and 2 chrome mox.
2 / I have a hand with 2 pyro, 2 ssg, a burning wish a mox and a land(ground). I decide to keep(guard) to have a possibility of leaving for combo. It is to my opinion the bad choice. I would have had to mulligan because leave for combo faster than I. But it was hard : he play lot of free counterspell too. 0-2

1-2-0

Round 4: Franck (Oups!) with POX discard. (bad MU)

1/I lose the D-roll. He begins by duress T1 then hymn T2, then pox. I reset me a hand with one draw4 but loses on rack in spite of ETW at 10 (not possible to go in tendrils). 0-1
2/I leave T3 on an ETW in 16 (I said to myself that that would go with so much). He have two creatures but also scroll which, with funeral charm, botch up to me my gob that I kept(guarded) to defense. And kills me with the nezumi transformed into rack... Tendrils would have been better. 0-2
Even there, my hands were not terrible... So when moreover i am discarded...

1-3-0

I am losing hope. And I fall on Elf that I think of being a good MU.

Round 5: Vincent with elfs.
1/I lose D-roll (still). He puts essence warden T1. I go in combo T1 with returns and I finish to a storm of 9 with Infernal tutor... But ToA is remove from the game and I haven't enough mana to make BW. So worse: I leave on ETW and give him(her) 20 LP. But I lower him in 8 in two turns of attack and after my last attack, the same turn, I tendril in 8 exactly leaves there. 1-0
2/I leave with a diminshing returns but dig that 2 draw4 and I fizzle by drawing twice of boils and by staying at 4 LP. 1-1
3/I have a soft hand which can permit me to leave T3, but he has a broken exit which kills me in combo staff of domination infinity mana, infinity LP + infinity draw up + pfffff 1-2

1-4-0

I am going not to delay to suiscid, but as there is a last round...

Round 6: Gina with elfs (the return!)

1/I lose the D-roll (never luck) and I leave on ETW in 12. I try to restart with gob as to bloqueur, but I fizzle on returns without tutor. The elfs submerges me in spite of 2 of kicked orim's chant to try the topdeck. 0-1
2/I leave on Tendrils in 38 which tears. 1-1 3/She takes out to me 2 null rod but I have Shatering spree with BW. I leave the next turn on Tendrils in 20.
2-1

2-4-0

I finished 35th.
Here is thus one bad tournaments, and I doubtless made errors. I count 2 at least: one against affinity with the spree (I should have waited for a turn) and one against pox when I left for ETW instead of ToA.

Bryant Cook
01-11-2008, 02:56 PM
Here is a great find from Morning Tide, he's a Windfall! This may of broken TES in half giving it Windfall.

Slithermuse
2UU
Creature - Elemental (R)
When Slithermuse leaves play, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
Evoke 2U
3/3


Just imagine going turn one play a bunch of acceleration, evoke, crack Lion's Eye Diamond in response draw 7. Who isn't getting hard right now? Here's what I'm proposing.

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Orimís Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lionís Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Slithermuse
2 Ponder
1 Infernal Contract
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cruel Bargain
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Thoughtsieze
SB:1 Cleanfall
SB:1 Pyroclasm
SB:1 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:2 Abeyance
SB:3 Pyroblast

There's a few other small changes in the list also, but I think this card could be the one to push TES to the limit.

Edit: I'm also debating if we want Ponder anymore, or is it better to have Cabal Ritual?

Kadishack
01-11-2008, 03:14 PM
Here is a great find from Morning Tide, he's a Windfall! This may of broken TES in half giving it Windfall.

Slithermuse
2UU
Creature - Elemental (R)
When Slithermuse leaves play, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
Evoke 2U
3/3


Just imagine going turn one play a bunch of acceleration, evoke, crack Lion's Eye Diamond in response draw 7. Who isn't getting hard right now? Here's what I'm proposing.

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Orimís Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lionís Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Slithermuse
2 Ponder
1 Infernal Contract
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cruel Bargain
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Thoughtsieze
SB:1 Cleanfall
SB:1 Pyroclasm
SB:1 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:2 Abeyance
SB:3 Pyroblast

There's a few other small changes in the list also, but I think this card could be the one to push TES to the limit.

Edit: I'm also debating if we want Ponder anymore, or is it better to have Cabal Ritual?

Nice Find!!!
What matchups will this card help in? Or is it basically improving every matchup?

Does this card help imrpove the consistency in the deck? It appears that it would help alot because of the chance of drawing more than 4 cards.

I really still like ponder in the deck as you want to be able to find the muse asap but on the other hand cabal ritual helps prior to going off creating a larger difference in hand sizes. It could go either way in which one to cut.

yawg07
01-11-2008, 03:17 PM
I knew as soon as i saw him that he'd catch on.
I always post over at the STORM Boards, but I forget to post here.

I generally prefer Cabal. My list with Windfall-guy is a little bit different.
But basically it is yours ...

-1 Chrome Mox
-2 Ponder

+3 Cabal Ritual

With all the Draw7-ish effects now, I may re-include the 4th Chrome.


EDIT: Yeah it basically improves every matchup. Your good ones are better because you are faster and your control matchups are better because if you fail at going off ... just draw 7! haaha

Tacosnape
01-11-2008, 03:22 PM
How on earth can you take out a Chrome for Slithermuse? The -only- downside of this card remotely whatsoever is that you have to find Blue Mana to take full advantage of him, and Chrome can be a blue source.

I'll be assembling this deck and learning to play it ASAP, by the way. Slithermuse for the win.

EDIT:

Do you still need the maindeck Diminishing Returns with Slithermuse? I don't know a lot about this deck, but I was under the impression that most of the use of Diminishing Returns maindeck was to grab with Infernal Tutor when you had a Lion's Eye Diamond to provide the blue, or rarely if you managed to get double blue with it in your hand. Wouldn't a fourth maindeck Slithermuse be better in both scenarios?

Ewokslayer
01-11-2008, 03:25 PM
Tarnished Citadel
Really?

Isn't Orchard better?
or a second Paradise

Bryant Cook
01-11-2008, 03:25 PM
Cabal Ritual is better than Ponder in the games I'm goldfishing with this guy.

yawg07
01-11-2008, 03:26 PM
How on earth can you take out a Chrome for Slithermuse? The -only- downside of this card remotely whatsoever is that you have to find Blue Mana to take full advantage of him, and Chrome can be a blue source.

I'll be assembling this deck and learning to play it ASAP, by the way. Slithermuse for the win.

I DIDN'T lol, Chrome #4 has been out of my deck for a while now, and actually my win % went up.
But really with muse in, I think it'll be coming back.

yawg07
01-11-2008, 03:27 PM
Tarnished Citadel
Really?

Isn't Orchard better?
or a second Paradise

No. No no no.
Orchard gives them a guy to block your gobs/equip with jitte/sac for therapy.
Paradise gets very murky in a pair, it also can adversely affect your turns when cantripping.

Windux
01-11-2008, 05:08 PM
Do you really want to have 2 Draw4's for setup and then additional 2 Muse?

It seems like the deck gets more and more the way, that you need way more mana.

First Ponder for the Setup, then Draw4's including Cabal Rituals (which also costs "1 more") and now additional Muse, cutting the Cabal Rituals again?

What about -1 Draw4, -1 Ponder, +2 Muse?

Muse also let's you draw into blind and also draws up to 4 cards.

Bovinious
01-11-2008, 05:46 PM
Is this new Windfall guy really that much better than Meditate? I mean its not often your opponent will just be sitting there with 7 in hand unless its turn 1, usually they will have 5 cards in hand, 6 if youre lucky, in the first few turns. I can see situations where hed be a draw 6-7, but I can also think of a few where hed draw less than Meditate. Good find either way though.

Arsenal
01-11-2008, 05:50 PM
Aside from City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, and Undiscovered Paradise, what other rainbow lands are there? Is Tarnished Citadel really #4 on the list of rainbow lands?

Tacosnape
01-11-2008, 05:58 PM
Aside from City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, and Undiscovered Paradise, what other rainbow lands are there? Is Tarnished Citadel really #4 on the list of rainbow lands?

Rainbow Vale? (snicker)

Sadly I think it might be.


Is this new Windfall guy really that much better than Meditate? I mean its not often your opponent will just be sitting there with 7 in hand unless its turn 1, usually they will have 5 cards in hand, 6 if youre lucky, in the first few turns. I can see situations where hed be a draw 6-7, but I can also think of a few where hed draw less than Meditate. Good find either way though.

He can also be played turn one in a pinch without going off, whereas doing this with Meditate is a risky idea.

I think the "cards in hand" drawback is interesting, as it promotes slightly altering the deck for speed to take full advantage of it. It's worth noting that Diminishing Returns can refill your opponent's hand in a pinch (This occurred to me after I suggested cutting the maindeck one, but I'm still not sure, being kind of new to the deck), letting you chain together multiple draw 7's if you have the mana.

Also, I agree with Wastedlife that with this guy, more mana acceleration is a good thing.

Windux
01-11-2008, 06:02 PM
Vivid Marsh

Land
Vivid Marsh comes into play tapped with two charge counters on it.
{T}: Add {G} to your mana pool.
{T},Remove a charge counter from Vivid Marsh: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

-- All colors available. CipT

Archaeological Dig

Land
{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool.
{T},Sacrifice Archaeological Dig: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

--- Can onyl be used 1 time for colored Mana.

Forsaken City

Land
Forsaken City doesn't untap during your untap step.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may remove a card in your hand from the game. If you do, untap Forsaken City.
{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

---

Grand Coliseum

Land
Grand Coliseum comes into play tapped.
{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool.
{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Grand Coliseum deals 1 damage to you

---
Rainbow Vale

Land
{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. An opponent gains control of Rainbow Vale at end of turn.

---

Tendo Ice Bridge

Land
Tendo Ice Bridge comes into play with a charge counter on it.
{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool.
{T},Remove a charge counter from Tendo Ice Bridge: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.



That's all.

Arsenal
01-11-2008, 06:03 PM
Citadel does look to be #4 after City, Gemstone, and Paradise (All circa Mirage block). Wow. Rainbow lands just ain't what they used to be.

Bovinious
01-11-2008, 06:18 PM
\
He can also be played turn one in a pinch without going off, whereas doing this with Meditate is a risky idea.

Yeah thats true, I think the card is better than Meditate, but Im not sure its a great deal better, and no one plays Meditate in TES anymore. This guy looks like hell see play though.

@ Rainbow Lands:

After Undiscovered Paradise it actually goes Tarnished Citadel, then Forbidden Orchard and Forsaken City. Tarnished Citadel is played in extended Dredge decks as the 3rd rainbow land because Dredge really doesnt want the opponent to have a creature (Orchard) or have to pitch a card (Forsaken). TES doesnt want either of these things either, so Tarnished seems like the right choice to me.

Arsenal
01-11-2008, 06:21 PM
But a Lightning Bolt per use? Jeez...

I remember Forsaken City back in MM/Invasion standard; Rising Waters decks... so boring to play against. Like the 2000-01 Stasis of it's time.

BreathWeapon
01-11-2008, 06:28 PM
I've been testing Slithermuse for a little while now, and it often feels like a less conditional Draw 4 that can turn into either a Windfall or a Wheel of Fortune with Lion's Eye Diamond. I think Slithermuse replaces Diminishing Returns, Draw 4, Ponder and Cabal Ritual altogether and refocuses the deck on a more aggressive turn one plan with either Slithermuse -> Empty the Warrens or Slithermuse chains.


1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mind
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tarnished Citadel

Slithermuse changes the entire approach to TES, you can either turn it into a Draw 7 based deck with out the traditional draw backs of a Draw 7 or use it to refuel after expending resources on an Empty the Warrens. The card does attract Swords to Plowshares and Stifle like a lightning rod, but it "dumbs down" TES a lot and allows it to use Empty the Warrens with disregard for board removal. I'm not 100% sure Diminishing Returns should be cut from the MD, but I don't seem to be Infernal Tutoring for it that often, and Slithermuse is easier to resolve when drawn.

Slithermuse is ridiculous in Belcher with 4 Wild Cantor and 1 Tropical Island if people haven't tried it out there.

Edit: Undiscovered Paradise sucks with 4 Slithermuse, Tarnished Citadel or Glimmervoid gives the deck more consistent turn twos after resolving Slithemuse for X. I'm not whether or not 1/2 or 2/1 is the best configuration, but I'd rather take a lightning bolt to the face or lose a storm count than bounce a land.

Bryant Cook
01-11-2008, 09:54 PM
This guy is conditional don't forget this, this is why we're still playing Diminishing Returns. Also, 11 lands is terrible. 3 ETW? Card is terrible in the metagame lately. I question your list a lot. Glimmervoid, it's not better than Paradise; that too is conditional.


Edit: What I've found really nice is Chanting them, going off with returns, then using Muse. They're forced to have 7 cards! Also, I was testing vs Landstill. He went turn 2 Standstill, I went turn 3 chant you. Draw 10?

Edit 2: Landstill player cast Fact in response to Chant (I'm assuming he's looking for Force), he gets 4 garbage cards and another Fact. I split the piles 5-0, he's like are you sure? Yes. Chant resolved. I drew 12 cards off of a Slithermuse! How does Landstill beat this deck anymore?

BreathWeapon
01-11-2008, 10:32 PM
This guy is conditional don't forget this, this is why we're still playing Diminishing Returns. Also, 11 lands is terrible. 3 ETW? Card is terrible in the metagame lately. I question your list a lot. Glimmervoid, it's not better than Paradise; that too is conditional.

11 lands has been the standard for Storm combo since the original Long, I prefer 11 lands for the reduced mulligans, tho' 10 lands and Diminishing Returns is acceptable. I fail to see how 11 lands is "terrible" considering that it's a minor variance that leads toward making the deck more consistent at the cost of speed.

Empty the Warrens is what makes Slithermuse such a threat, you can either Slithermuse into Empty the Warrens or cast Empty the Warrens and then recouperate the card disadvantage with Slithermuse on the following turn. With the exception of Landstill, which has cut Stifle and Wasteland, there isn't enough board removal to discourage me from using 3 Empty the Warrens in the main deck and then side boarding them out in the face of resistance. I think Empty the Warrens is a fine card at the moment, because Pyroclasm and co' have left the metagame after the decline of Goblins, making the environment more suitable for Empty the Warrens than it was pre-Flash. 3 Empty the Warrens makes the deck more consistent, especially with 4 Draw Xs, and I'll trade any vulnerability for consistency, because this deck mulligans for shit more often than not.

I can't stand Undiscovered Paradise, drawing it and Brainstorm is an inverse Time Walk, I have less issues with Glimmervoid than Undiscovered Paradise and I run 2 Tarnished Citadels standard at the moment.

Bryant Cook
01-11-2008, 10:40 PM
11 lands has been the standard for Storm combo since the original Long, I prefer 11 lands for the reduced mulligans, tho' 10 lands and Diminishing Returns is acceptable. I fail to see how 11 lands is "terrible" considering that it's a minor variance that leads toward making the deck more consistent at the cost of speed.

Empty the Warrens is what makes Slithermuse such a threat, you can either Slithermuse into Empty the Warrens or cast Empty the Warrens and then recouperate the card disadvantage with Slithermuse on the following turn. With the exception of Landstill, which has cut Stifle and Wasteland, there isn't enough board removal to discourage me from using 3 Empty the Warrens in the main deck and then side boarding them out in the face of resistance. I think Empty the Warrens is a fine card at the moment, because Pyroclasm and co' have left the metagame after the decline of Goblins, making the environment more suitable for Empty the Warrens than it was pre-Flash. 3 Empty the Warrens makes the deck more consistent, especially with 4 Draw Xs, and I'll trade any vulnerability for consistency, because this deck mulligans for shit more often than not.

I can't stand Undiscovered Paradise, drawing it and Brainstorm is an inverse Time Walk, I have less issues with Glimmervoid than Undiscovered Paradise and I run 2 Tarnished Citadels standard at the moment.

I'm not even going to bother arguing your points, we've done this for ages and we can't agree. I'll just keep putting up results.

yawg07
01-12-2008, 03:15 AM
"The card does attract Swords to Plowshares and Stifle like a lightning rod"

Do note, the card says "leaves play" so StP makes him into a Windfall that gains us life ROFL
But yes Stifle will stop him. :wink:

blac198990
01-12-2008, 04:54 AM
although I don't play the deck, I do play against it many times(yawg) and looking at slithermuse over d. returns has its ups, but I have seen yawg win because the card he needed got removed and he got a burning wish from returns. I don't know much about it but I always felt it to be good.

to the guy who talked about beating landstill, it doesnt matter if you have 4 cards or 50, if you play chant and it resolves, then you obviously have kill in hand and dont need the cards, unless your just throwing it up there hoping he tries to draw more. Which in my opinion is not that great. This slithermuse isn't going to make your matchup any better, you only beat landstill if you can resolve a chant.(from the landstill player :) )

Bryant Cook
01-12-2008, 05:33 AM
Cutting Returns is a bad idea, for many reasons, sometimes you need to draw 7 cards. Not 3-5, like you would off of Slithermuse (It's not always 7). Sometimes you need to shuffle cards in your opponents hand away (stifle). Slithermuse is terrible against stifle, by the way. You may need that Tendrils in your graveyard and have Infernal Tutor in hand or too many Burning Wishes removed or in the grave. It's very late and I'm tired I'll add on more later.

yawg07
01-12-2008, 01:16 PM
This slithermuse isn't going to make your matchup any better, you only beat landstill if you can resolve a chant.(from the landstill player :) )

You have to think, Nate. I've won when you were tapped out and FoW'd my Chant. :wink:
I basically take it as a "Chant sort of resolved" moment.

blac198990
01-12-2008, 01:27 PM
You have to think, Nate. I've won when you were tapped out and FoW'd my Chant. :wink:
I basically take it as a "Chant sort of resolved" moment.

yea yea don't get to cocky:tongue: It's not my fault that every time we play you ALWAYS have a chant.

yawg07
01-12-2008, 01:42 PM
yea yea don't get to cocky:tongue: It's not my fault that every time we play you ALWAYS have a chant.

rofl I know I know
I have to against you, lol
You always have FoW against me :D

I think the clincher is you don't always have Standstill against me, or I'm doing too many things before it comes down.
Or sometimes you'll have like Stifle/Trickbind/FoW/CSpell in hand and I cant handle it lol

matelml
01-12-2008, 02:57 PM
This guy is conditional don't forget this, this is why we're still playing Diminishing Returns. Also, 11 lands is terrible. 3 ETW? Card is terrible in the metagame lately. I question your list a lot. Glimmervoid, it's not better than Paradise; that too is conditional.


Edit: What I've found really nice is Chanting them, going off with returns, then using Muse. They're forced to have 7 cards! Also, I was testing vs Landstill. He went turn 2 Standstill, I went turn 3 chant you. Draw 10?

Edit 2: Landstill player cast Fact in response to Chant (I'm assuming he's looking for Force), he gets 4 garbage cards and another Fact. I split the piles 5-0, he's like are you sure? Yes. Chant resolved. I drew 12 cards off of a Slithermuse! How does Landstill beat this deck anymore?


Diminishing Returns and FoF both leave the choice to draw, they are not forced to. @ this Windfall, if this is true my deck just became tier 1

BreathWeapon
01-12-2008, 03:34 PM
"The card does attract Swords to Plowshares and Stifle like a lightning rod"

Do note, the card says "leaves play" so StP makes him into a Windfall that gains us life ROFL
But yes Stifle will stop him. :wink:

For some reason I was thinking Rector when I read it, that makes the card a lot better then.

I put the 1 Diminishing Returns back in the MD, Windfall on the draw is just so much worse than being able to Diminishing Returns and Orim's Chant.

@WL, I'm sure more than one version of the deck can be right/wrong based on a given meta game, no configuration or argument is going to remain static forever.

matelml
01-12-2008, 05:46 PM
I am kind of afraid that with this push TES will be too strong for Wizards likes and LED will be banned. Of course I hope this won't happen but I see the possibility now.

Mental
01-12-2008, 06:29 PM
Is slithermuse really that good? I havn't tested it yet, but it seems often like a worse version of D. Returns, though better on occasion. Also, I can't see running 4. I'd run 3 at most because it's so conditional.

kicks_422
01-12-2008, 08:57 PM
Slithermuse is conditional, in the sense that it would really help when you're already winning, and would really suck when you're losing.

There's also the problem that it's a non-mana card that can't be tutored for.

Elf_Ascetic
01-12-2008, 08:58 PM
No, I doubt they'll do that. I hate this "omfg, this should be banned" talk, but if someone's getting the hammer, it's Slithermuse itself. Let's just see.

Mental
01-12-2008, 09:03 PM
Slithermuse is conditional, in the sense that it would really help when you're already winning, and would really suck when you're losing.

There's also the problem that it's a non-mana card that can't be tutored for.

Well it can be actually. Infernal Tutor --> Slithermuse is kinda broken, especially off LED. But yeah, it can't be got with Burning Wish.

Elf_Ascetic
01-12-2008, 09:07 PM
The latest rumours... Slithermuse costs :3::u: to evoke.

kicks_422
01-13-2008, 07:48 AM
I hope it does, so that people won't try to squeeze it into combo.

I've been trying these changes:

MD
-2 Ponder
-2 Cabal Ritual
+4 Pyroblast

SB
-4 Pyroblast
+3 Shattering Spree
+1 Echoing Ruin

The 2-ofs seemed too random for me. I often used Ponders to dig for Chants, and the Cabal Rituals weren't really helping much. I dropped them and moved the 4 Pyroblasts MD, taking a page out of Belcher. In an Island-heavy environment, I think 8 protection spells are needed MD... They add to the storm count for R, at the very least. Then to replace the Pyroblasts in the SB, maxed out Sprees and a Ruin for Chalice/3Sphere.

Since Islands and Chalices/3Spheres are my least favorite things to see when playing this deck, I think it makes sense to run just a bit more protection against them.

Lemuria
01-13-2008, 12:25 PM
The latest rumours... Slithermuse costs :3::u: to evoke.

Even though it seems playable to me. I mean, it's not so difficult for a combo deck to get that amount off acceleration

yawg07
01-13-2008, 12:26 PM
Eh, 8x Protection MD is great, BUT I can't see cutting mana for it.
You want all your game #1's to be as potent as possible.

Personally, I've found that as long as you aren't facing Landstill, one Chant is enough on game one.
Landstill can still hammer you down with Stifle.
Just remember that most of the time, if they FoW chant, that's all they have.
A lot of the time, a resolved Chant just means permission to D.Returns/IGG freely.

MattH
01-13-2008, 01:28 PM
Is slithermuse really that good? I havn't tested it yet, but it seems often like a worse version of D. Returns, though better on occasion. Also, I can't see running 4. I'd run 3 at most because it's so conditional.

The primary advantage it has over Returns is that it doesn't take double-blue. If DR was 3U...oh god I think every storm player would cream their jeans instantly.

Mental
01-13-2008, 01:30 PM
The primary advantage it has over Returns is that it doesn't take double-blue. If DR was 3U...oh god I think every storm player would cream their jeans instantly.

Meh, if Muse evokes for 3U I'm sticking with D. Returns. It's just not worth it.

Tacosnape
01-13-2008, 03:01 PM
I sort of agree. the 2U makes it far less explosive and ridiculous than 3U.

If it's 2U, you can go Land, Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal and already be at enough mana to cast it. This can be incredibly important if your other cards are like, Lion's Eye Diamond, Tendrils of Agony, Land, Slithermuse. Also, at 2U, he's much more likely to be around to completely negate Mulligans (IE, you mull to 6 and are staring at something like Land, Mox, Petal, Empty the Warrens, Slithermuse, Tendrils of Agony). If he costs 2U, he lets you refill your hand pretty efficiently, whereas 3U is a little harder to get off a bad hand. And I think the main appeal of him evoking for 2U was the ability to make even the bad hands ridiculously strong, rather than making the good ones better.

deadlock
01-13-2008, 04:06 PM
Okay dudes, instead of keep guessing we should try some logic shouldnt we?

We know that it will cost 2UU to hardcast and we know that all Creatures with the Evoke ability cost less to Evoke than to hardcast, so this should mean that its Evoke cost is definitly at 2U.

However there is one thing that should be taken into account: It might be an exeptional card, because in contrast to the other evokers its ability triggers when the creature leaves play rather when it comes into play.
So it might be the case that you pay the asumed 3U to get the effect immediately rather when the hardcasted creature leaves play.

Does this make any sense to you? :confused:

yawg07
01-13-2008, 05:16 PM
No, there are creatures in Morningtide with larger Evoke costs, mainly because they trigger on leaving play, rather than coming into play.
Its the new thing for the set, so our little friend may have a terrible fate. :cry:

Bryant Cook
01-13-2008, 08:16 PM
Well it can be actually. Infernal Tutor --> Slithermuse is kinda broken, especially off LED. But yeah, it can't be got with Burning Wish.

I know! Makes me so mad! It should've been Creature Sorcery- Elemental. The end. No arguements. For the casting cost for evoke arguement, if it's 2U which it looks like in the scan it'll be a 3 of. If it's 3U it'll probably not make it or maybe if you're lucky a 1 of.

Kicks, I play in a metagame full of Control. Ask anyone who's ever been to Syracuse NY. There was a total of 6 Landstill decks yesterday in our local of 15 people. That's a huge portion of the Metagame. I took 1st, nonetheless. That many blue hate spells is unnecessary.

kicks_422
01-14-2008, 06:51 AM
Kicks, I play in a metagame full of Control. Ask anyone who's ever been to Syracuse NY. There was a total of 6 Landstill decks yesterday in our local of 15 people. That's a huge portion of the Metagame. I took 1st, nonetheless. That many blue hate spells is unnecessary.

But you still do the -2 SSG, Ponder, Cabal for 4 Pyroblast and 2 Swarm? I guess I'll just have to practice more... :tongue:

Nightmare
01-14-2008, 09:29 AM
Based on the card previews today (with the 2WW evoke guy costing 3W to evoke) I'd say its likely the whole cycle will have the same cost in their color, which would mean this card isn't quite as much of a Windfall (pun intended) as we had initially expected. Still decent, not as busted.

Bryant Cook
01-14-2008, 02:08 PM
Based on the card previews today (with the 2WW evoke guy costing 3W to evoke) I'd say its likely the whole cycle will have the same cost in their color, which would mean this card isn't quite as much of a Windfall (pun intended) as we had initially expected. Still decent, not as busted.

I just saw it, so guys, is this going to be a 1 of or a 0 of? Is it still good at 3U as a tutor target?

Ewokslayer
01-14-2008, 02:14 PM
With a Evoke cost of 3U i don't see it fitting into the deck. It seems worse than Returns now.
It can only be fetched by a hellbent Tutor which means there was probably an LED somewhere in there so the double blue of Returns isn't an issue and unless your opponent has more than 7 cards in hand will not draw you as much as Returns.

Mental
01-14-2008, 10:02 PM
I just saw it, so guys, is this going to be a 1 of or a 0 of? Is it still good at 3U as a tutor target?

0 Because it's only good of of a hellbent Infernal Tutor. D.Returns is better in almost every circumstance.

If I cut a card for this, sadly, it would be a Contract, not Returns. Why? Because this is never going to draw you 7 cards. I think it's more treatable as a draw 4.

BreathWeapon
01-17-2008, 04:21 AM
With a Evoke cost of 3U i don't see it fitting into the deck. It seems worse than Returns now.
It can only be fetched by a hellbent Tutor which means there was probably an LED somewhere in there so the double blue of Returns isn't an issue and unless your opponent has more than 7 cards in hand will not draw you as much as Returns.

Even if its Evoke cost is 3U, it's a 1x for certain. Diminishing Returns both shuffles the discard pile and gives the opponent a new hand, where Slithermuse is either the same or appr. the same as a Draw 7, generates additional mana from Right of Flames/Cabal Rituals and doesn't give the opponent disruption. It's marginal on the draw, but on the play it's incredible to be able to Land, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond + into Infernal Tutor -> Slithermuse and not risk Force of Will twice.

Nihil Credo
01-17-2008, 04:34 AM
Land, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond + into Infernal Tutor -> Slithermuse and not risk Force of Will twice.
How are you any less exposed to FoW? You need to pop the LED right off the start anyway, otherwise the Tutor won't be hellbent and will not be able to grab Muse. Moreover, just like with D. Returns, you have to pop it for blue and tell your opponent "I'm not grabbing EtW, so it's OK to wait to counter the tutor target".

SnakeEater
01-17-2008, 05:32 AM
http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/Morningtide/ionukwox_EN.jpg

Now it is confirmed: Slithermuse has Evokecost of 3U.

Arsenal
01-17-2008, 10:34 AM
Slick artwork; exactly what I had in mind too.

Too bad it's 3U instead of 2U. Funny how one mana makes it's strong vs. weak.

BreathWeapon
01-17-2008, 01:04 PM
How are you any less exposed to FoW? You need to pop the LED right off the start anyway, otherwise the Tutor won't be hellbent and will not be able to grab Muse. Moreover, just like with D. Returns, you have to pop it for blue and tell your opponent "I'm not grabbing EtW, so it's OK to wait to counter the tutor target".

Diminishing Returns gives the opponent 7 new cards, while Slithermuse does not give the opponent 7 new cards, hence Slithermuse doesn't "risk Force of Will twice."

yawg07
01-17-2008, 01:57 PM
Diminishing Returns gives the opponent 7 new cards, while Slithermuse does not give the opponent 7 new cards, hence Slithermuse doesn't "risk Force of Will twice."

BUT, Slithermuse does NOT always give you 7 cards.
At 2U it was an INCREDIBLE card, at 3U, not so much.

Sorry but WotC dicked us over. :frown:

BreathWeapon
01-17-2008, 02:45 PM
BUT, Slithermuse does NOT always give you 7 cards.
At 2U it was an INCREDIBLE card, at 3U, not so much.

Sorry but WotC dicked us over. :frown:

Slithermuse does give you 7 cards in the one situation that really matters, going all in on the play when your only choice is to Force check the opponent with a handful of acceleration. It doesn't need to always give you 7 cards, that's what Diminishing Returns is for. The important distinction is between the opportunity costs of Slithermuse and Diminishing Returns, where Slithermuse > Diminishing Returns, and I'll spend 1xMD slot for when Slithermuse > Diminishing Returns as long as it still functions as a appr. Draw 4 when drawn.

At 2U it was a threat, at 3U it's a tutor target.

kicks_422
01-17-2008, 06:34 PM
How about when your opponent has less cards in hand than you? You know, the time that you REALLY need to draw cards? What happens then?... And how are you going to fit this into the deck?...

BreathWeapon
01-17-2008, 07:16 PM
How about when your opponent has less cards in hand than you? You know, the time that you REALLY need to draw cards? What happens then?... And how are you going to fit this into the deck?...

You tutor for Diminishing Returns ...

The deck has 6 modular slots, it shouldn't be difficult to find room for it. I'd cut an Infernal Contract, since Slithermuse is comparable to an Infernal Contract when drawn, but it's a superior Draw 7 when it's tutored for under the proper conditions.

ClearSkies
01-17-2008, 07:45 PM
When you chant your opponent before attempting to go off, the part about giving 7 new cards to your opponent by Diminishing Returns wouldn't matter right?

If you couldn't chant your opponent, then you have equal chance of losing if that person counters when you try to Tutor + LED.

BreathWeapon
01-17-2008, 08:28 PM
When you chant your opponent before attempting to go off, the part about giving 7 new cards to your opponent by Diminishing Returns wouldn't matter right?

If you couldn't chant your opponent, then you have equal chance of losing if that person counters when you try to Tutor + LED.

Right, there's no difference in the outcome, but Diminishing Returns requires Orim's Chant for the same effect, which is both a card and W color requirement. I believe the odds of Force of Will=GG are 3/2 in TES's favor, which is/can be superior to the odds of the match up itself. If it's 3/2 in TES's favor, it's often better than mulliganing to 6 or less.

Slithermuse does have other benefits as well, not shuffling the discard pile results in additional mana from Right of Flames and Cabal Rituals, so when Slithermuse is better than Diminishing Returns, it's a lot better than Diminishing Returns.

Slithermuse is a situational tutor target, but considering it's a reasonable threat in its own right, I think it's worth the MD space. I don't think I can explain it better, I suggest testing it and reaching your own conclusions.

Bryant Cook
01-17-2008, 09:26 PM
I agree with points on each side, I still like the card, however the cons outweigh the pros here. I won't be playing it.

Dilettante
01-17-2008, 11:10 PM
Slithermuse seems, the more I look at it, a 'win more' card instead of simply a 'win' card. In the situations that you can make better use of it, you pretty much have the game in the bag with something else... like post-chant, you either have the tutorable win or Diminishing Returns nets you a guaranteed 7 cards. I see it as a temptation, making you dare to risk your whole hand. If you Slithermuse, you pretty much need a win condition in those next 3-4 cards or so or you scoop. You also tend to commit 1 more card to cast Slithermuse instead of a Bargain/Contract, further escalating your exposed risk. I... don't see enough situations where I'd want to Infernal Tutor for it instead of IGG or D. Returns. Though I may potentially net more or it is slightly easier to cast, IGG gives security in card quality and D. Returns gives constant security in card draws. I'll take the extra possible land/petal drop in better knowing how large my hand is after a reset. If I can't win in those 7 cards, then the game is pretty much out, but going all out and relying on 3-5 cards with Slithermuse...

Advantages:
-Can be used in a hand without Cabal/Dark Ritual
-Not Duressable
-Needs 1 less land/petal than D. Returns

Disadvantages:
-Can be stifled
-Baits the player into going 'all out' and exposing more of their hand.

BreathWeapon
01-17-2008, 11:49 PM
Slithermuse isn't a card for novices, if you don't know when to Slithermuse and when to Diminishing Returns, you shouldn't be playing with it at all.

On to another subject, here's an interesting build I've been testing on Apprentice.

"Tinder TES"

1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
3 Diminishing Returns
1 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Glimmervoid

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain
1 Hull Breach
1 Rough/Tumble
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Open Slots

The 3 Diminishing Returns/Empty the Warrens configuration isn't a new suggestion, since I mentioned it in the previous thread, but Tinder Wall has proven to be a terrific ritual effect in this deck. As much as I hate to cut Simian Spirit Guide, Tinder Wall as a G one drop for RR on the following turn has given the deck, and Diminishing Returns, a lot of added punch.

It's not the end all be all of TES, but I think it demonstrates that Tinder Wall is a serious consideration for the mana base. It either serves as a Right of Flame for G or as a one drop, the latter of the two being in a mana hole the deck needs to fill from Orim's Chant mana inefficiency (compared to Xantid Swarm as a mana efficient one drop).

Bryant Cook
01-19-2008, 12:52 AM
I just finished 20 games, this list is terrible against Landstill and Threshold. Engineered explosives and stifle eat your face, you can't always empty your hand due to too many cloggy cards (2 extra ETW and DIminishing Returns) for Infernal Tutor. Also, the turn 1 ratio is a lot less due to no additional free mana source. I don't think it's better than what we've all been playing.

BreathWeapon
01-19-2008, 04:25 PM
I just finished 20 games, this list is terrible against Landstill and Threshold. Engineered explosives and stifle eat your face, you can't always empty your hand due to too many cloggy cards (2 extra ETW and DIminishing Returns) for Infernal Tutor. Also, the turn 1 ratio is a lot less due to no additional free mana source. I don't think it's better than what we've all been playing.

It depends on their disruption, no version of TES is good against Force of Will, Counterspell, Stifle and Wasteland versions of Landstill that isn't running 8+ disruption cards, which is where -2 Diminishing Returns -2 Empty the Warrens for +4 Xantid Swarm comes in. I can't remember the last time I saw Threshold run Stifle, and the Engineered Explosives count isn't ever high enough to be a dependable out to Empty the Warrens, but again it depends on their disruption. If Landstill or Threshold is prepared for TES, then Landstill or Threshold tend to be the overwhelming favorites.

The reduced turn one percentages are made up with an increased turn two percentage where the increase in the turn two percentage is > than the reduced turn one percentages. I don't have a problem with the 4cc cards in this deck, which aren't all that dissimilar from the BBB cards, preventing Infernal Tutor for reaching Hellbent, because most of the time that 4cc card is a threat in and of itself or Infernal Tutor can double up on the 4cc card, in this case Diminishing Returns, to break thru' a counter wall.

The main focus is on Tinder Wall and how best to exploit its mana production. The 3/3 Returns/Warrens configuration is just a preference based on style, and what I think is one of the best uses of the RR production to open up UU for a second turn Returns. I really like the additional one drop in this deck, and Tinder Wall is both a one drop and a G Right of Flame, so it's extremely flexible.

I also find Tinder Wall useful for off setting the 1W cost of Abeyance with the additional mana production, which makes the idea of a Tinder Wall/Abeyance MD configuration really appealing.

emidln
01-19-2008, 05:44 PM
It depends on their disruption, no version of TES is good against Force of Will, Counterspell, Stifle and Wasteland versions of Landstill that isn't running 8+ disruption cards, which is where -2 Diminishing Returns -2 Empty the Warrens for +4 Xantid Swarm comes in. I can't remember the last time I saw Threshold run Stifle, and the Engineered Explosives count isn't ever high enough to be a dependable out to Empty the Warrens, but again it depends on their disruption. If Landstill or Threshold is prepared for TES, then Landstill or Threshold tend to be the overwhelming favorites.

1st Place & 4th Place - Winter Wonderland
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8231

6th Place - Spanish Legacy Champs
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7641

1st Place - Gencon Legacy Championships
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=22850

4th Place - Gencon Legacy Championships
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=22851

8th Place - Gencon Legacy Championships
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=22852

It actually seems that the only Threshold lists that win run Stifle.

BreathWeapon
01-19-2008, 06:32 PM
Point taken, but most of the Threshold lists I see at the moment are running Balance/Top and then either Spellsnare or Thoughtseize. If Stifle and Engineered Explosives are in vogue, then 2 Empty the Warrens should be moved to the SB etc.

I guess it's just meta dependent

Tacosnape
01-20-2008, 05:29 AM
Why is 3 Diminishing Returns any better than 1 maindeck? It's still ridiculously dependent on Lotus Petal to cast from your hand unless you use Infernal Tutor/LED or Burning Wish/LED, which in either case means the number in your deck doesn't matter.

ParkerLewis
01-20-2008, 12:45 PM
Hello all,

I'm a TES newbie (that IS my first time trying it) and I have to admit that I just can't seem to reliably run it. The list I'm using is the one from the opening post (this seems a quite recent "reference" list hence probably a good list to start practicing with).

i'll show you the sample hands i'm getting to ask you guys for advice, because frankly they all seem so shitty to me that i'm really starting to wonder if i'm missing something here. (To be honest, the main problem is probably that i have no idea what i should be aiming for given a specific hand, except ę playing it until i run out of gas and hope that iíll find a wincon with enough storm before it happens Ľ or ę trying to set up an igg Ľ in a few cases. How is the criticial storm count usually generated ? Is it most often via the help of one igg ? I mean, is it more like 70 % of the time, or more like the occasional thing, like 30 % of the time ?).

I'm just goldfishing. Iíll always pretend Iím on the play, but please feel free to make a distinction between your mulliganing decinsion between on the play and on the draw if needed. These are the ten hands that i'll randomly get from now on, to be as honest as possible. Which means as of right now, I don't even know what they'll be, for you to be as close as what I'm experiencing.

* Sample Hand 1 : Chrome Mox, BWish, BWish, SSG, Rite of flame, Rite of flame, EtW.

My analysis : complete sh*t, right ? no draw, no mana to cast it anyway. Obvious mulligan, right ? (Even if you agree with the conclusion, please tell me the reasons youíd have dismissed this hand if theyíre different).

Mulligan into : SSG, Infernal Contract (Draw4), Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Undiscovered Paradise, Cabal Ritual.
What would you do ? If youíd decide to keep this new hand, whatís the win youíd be aiming for to justify this decision ?


* Sample Hand 2 : Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, D. Returns, Tendrils.

My analysis : once again, this is trash right ?

Mulligan into : Gemstone Mine, Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, SSG, BWish, Cruel Bargain.
Once again, i donít see what I could expect from such a hand, except maybe hoping to get a way to cast the Cruel Bargain somehow (randomly drawing a Dark or Cabal Ritual). And then Iíd really have to draw some good stuff with it.


* Sample Hand 3 : Gemstone, City, LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Ponder.

My analysis : I canít really complain about mana, but now Iím lacking business spells. Should I hope getting something from the Ponder (iíd be hoping for a contract and/or a way to get a good ol D. Returns). But are the chances high enough ? Would you keep this hand ? I think I probably would (but granted, probably only because i feel like what iím usually getting is far worse than this).

I tried it.

T1 : Gemstone, Ponder, saw Infernal Contract (D4), Cruel Bargain (D4), Chrome Mox. I chose to not shuffle, knowing Iíd get a Draw4 for next turn. Was I right to do this up to this point ?
T2 : City of Brass.
My hand is now Chrome Mox, Infernal Contract (D4), LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame. I also know that i have a Cruel Bargain (D4) on top.
Iíd go City->Dark Ritual->Cabal Ritual->Infernal Contract, floating B (playing the Cabal with Dark mana so that i keep my multicolored mana options of Gemstone open). Storm count : 3. Am I still right ?

I draw Cruel Bargain (D4) (as expected), Gemstone, Infernal Tutor, Orimís Chant.
Now, Iíd say the correct play would be to go off by tutoring an IGG to add some storm and then tendrils.

So : Playing Gemstone, Tapping for W, Orimís Chant (Storm 4). Led (Storm 5). Mox imprinting Cruel Bargain (Storm 6). Tapping Gemstone for R, Rite of Flame (Storm 7), floating RRB. Playing Infernal Tutor (Storm 8) with Hellbent to fetch IGG. While ITís on the sack, sac LED for BBB. Mana floating : RBBB.
(by the way, simple question : if i had an extra card in hand at this point, I would still have had achieved Hellbent on ITís resolution thanks to LED, thus been able to get IGG, right ?)

Playing IGG (Storm 9). I go get Dark Ritual (i wonít have threshold anymore so I donít want Cabal), LED, and IT. Playing LED (Storm 10). Tapping Chrome Mox for B, playing Dark Ritual (Storm 11), playing IT (B floating, Storm 12) with Hellbent. Sac LED in response for BBB (BBBB floating), getting Tendrils, Tendrils for 26 life.
Wow, it went right ! :D Still, what would you have done differently ?


* Sample Hand 4 : Gemstone, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Canal Ritual, SSG, Rite of Flame, Orimís Chant.

My analysis : no draw, no tutor, mulligan.

Mulligan into : Chrome Mox, LED, SSG, Ponder, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor.

My analysis : I canít cast a simple spell so that would go to trash bin tooÖ am I still right now that mulliganing again would mean getting only 5 cards ? Or should I hope drawing a land to use Ponder ?


* Sample Hand 5 : Gemstone, BWish, Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Ponder, Cabal Ritual, Orimís Chant.

My analysis : Iíd keep. Iíll be able to play Ponder on T1 to see whatís coming and getting additional mana.

T1 : Gemstone. Actually, should I play Ponder first and keep Brainstorm for later (thus being able do dig further if needed), or play Brainstorm now and counting on the possibility to Ponder next turn (at the latest) to shuffle what i would be putting back if needed ?
I chose to play Ponder first, seeing LED, IT, Rite of Flame. One LED is great. I chose to not shuffle, and set up the draws so that next turn Iíll have both LED and RoF (with an IT on top).

T2 : Brainstorm, seeing IT, SSG, Orim. Now thatís pretty bad. I guess my only choice now is to Bwish for a Draw4 next turn (which I would pay for with LED). I put IT and Orim on top, which means my hand is now : LED, SSG, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, BWish, IT, Orimís Chant.

T3 : Drawing Orim as expected. LED (Storm 1). SSG, Rite of Flame, Tapping (and sacíing) Gemstone for B, Cabal Ritual (Storm 3), BWish for Cruel Bargain, sacrificing LED in response for BBB (Storm 4, BBBBR floating).

Note : I figured iíd better use my Cabal Ritual and lose my ability to generate blue with Gemstone than the opposite. Was it the optimal play ?

Playing Cruel Bargain (Storm 5, BR floating). Drawing Tendrils, Undiscovered Paradise, Gemstone, Infernal Tutor. At this point, iíd have to concede the game.
Did i go wrong somewhere, or was it just ę tough luck Ľ ?


* Sample Hand 6 : City, Mox, Mox, SSG, SSG, Ponder, Cruel Bargain.

My analysis : I can use Ponder to help me get the black mana needed to use Cruel Bargain, or to find a tutorÖ but i donít know if this is enough to keep it. Since Iím lacking experience, and playing it doesnít really cost me anything, I chose to play it, but itís very possible that itís not the correct choice. Was it ?

T1 : City, Ponder. Seeing LED, LED, Rite of Flame. Neither black mana nor tutor. Now thatís not good at all. Shuffle, and I draw a Ponder. GreatÖ

T2 : Drawing Orimís Chant. Playing Ponder, seeing Infernal Contract (D4), Lotus Petal, and Dark Ritual. Now thatís what I needed. I draw the Dark Rit and put Lotus on top (maybe i should have doneit the other way in the abstract, but it doesnt really matter here).

T3 : Drawing Lotus as expected. Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain (8 life, Storm 2). Drawing Infernal Contract (as expected), Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, IT.

My hand is now : Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, SSG, SSG, Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Infernal Contract, Infernal Tutor, Orimís Chant.
Chrome Mox imprinting SSG (Storm 3). SSG (i chose not to imprint this second one to Chrome Mox, thus helping me reach threshold for the upcoming Cabal Ritual), R floating, 5 cards in Graveyard. Rite of Flame (Storm 4, RR floating). Lotus Petal, sacíed for B : Storm 5, RRB floating, Threshold. Cabal Ritual (Storm 6), BBBBBR floating. Infernal Contract (BBR floating, Storm 7). Drawing City, Gemstone, RoF, IT.

My hand is now : Gemstone, City, Chrome Mox, RoF, IT, IT, Orimís Chant. Storm 7, BBR floating, 4 life. In play : one tapped City, untapped Chrome Mox with SGG imprinted.

My only solution is to use everything to do reach Hellbent and IT for a win condition like Tendrils. But I canít this turn since I have two lands in hand. Iím screwed again 


Ok, so in the end it will only be 6 hands, but Iím a bit tired (slept 5 hours last night) and actually typing it out took quite a long time and Iím short on time now. Still, they're about representative of my experience with the deck (heck, this is almost my entire experience with it). And, out of these 6 hands :

-number 2 was an auto-loss (well i didn't try mulliganing to 4...). number 4 also looks like it to me. that's 33 %
-number 5 & 6, while promising, died on me along the way. another 33 %
-number 3 was a win yeah !
-number 1 might, in fact, have been playable (after the mulligan to 6).

What do you guys think ? Have I played optimally, or at least correctly (no blatant mistakes/misplays/bad decisions) ? Then, is this low success rate (1 out 6, maybe 2) (plus, facing no opposing disruption) due to my having had actual bad luck on these few samples ?

Thank you all for your feedback.

matelml
01-20-2008, 01:10 PM
Look, I don't have time to discuss every single one now, but you really need to approach the deck differently.

The first hand was good enough.You could build 8 tokens on turn 1(decent, kind of crappy) or waited a turn for an extra spell. I would have kept the 4th hand too. With the 5th hand you could have won with IGGy: instead of the Chant, draw IT, SSG, Rite, tap mine, Cabal ritual, IT finding the 2nd LED, LED, LED, Wish, Sac both, =>IGGy float BB, etc.

You don't always have to combo on the first turn. Waiting a turn or 2 can give you the chance to draw that final ritual.

The most common strategy with TES is to go for a IGGy loop. After that the most common one is to make 8-16 EtW tokens in the first turns. You usually go for EtW if you know it's not likely you will get enough mana for IGGy, have a Wish but no Tutor, or you think you are facing disruption, so you wan't to act as quickly as possible.

I haven't looked at all the plays so I am not sure about the rest but those are also less than average hands. I also don't like the Contracts and don't play them so I am not the best player to tell you how to play with them.

Maybe later I will look more close to your hands and explain how I would play them all.

chokin
01-20-2008, 03:07 PM
Hand 1 - Keep that. 8 or 10 tokens on turn 1 depending if you draw or not. That's pretty good.

Hand 2 - Good move to mulligan. No mana other than Rite of Flame.
On that mull, that's tough. You could keep it and hope for a Cabal/Dark Rit, or you can mulligan.

Hand 3 - Nice hand. Ponder is the only quasi-tutor, but you have enough mana to where if you draw a tutor, you should be good to go.

Hand 4 -Good call to mull. The mulligan gave you a nice draw. All you need is 1 more hard mana source (land or a black card) and you can go off turn 3.

Hand 5 - I think it was fine. Good job.

Hand 6 - Ok draw. That double LED was kinda hot, but seeing what you had, that probably wasn't the best choice.

And Matelml is absolutely right in that you don't NEED to win turn 1 all the time. Sometimes you have to wait for turn 2 or 3 to get that kill. It depends on what you're facing. Also, some good advice is to just practice. Know the deck. If you only know a couple ways to win, then that's too bad. The deck has a huge toolbox at your disposal.

Unless you have a lot of pressure to win right away, don't go all out(unless you can guarantee the win). Knowing the deck is really key.

ParkerLewis
01-20-2008, 04:09 PM
Thank you Matelml & chokin for your input (still, any additional input is of course more than welcome).


And Matelml is absolutely right in that you don't NEED to win turn 1 all the time. Sometimes you have to wait for turn 2 or 3 to get that kill. It depends on what you're facing.

Actually, I don't know why you both said that, I never even considered trying to win T1 (given the hands i had at least). Was there something specific in my mulliganing decisions that made it look like that ?


Hand 1 - Keep that. 8 or 10 tokens on turn 1 depending if you draw or not. That's pretty good.

Noted. For some reason I wasn't considering how 8 tokens might still win the game. I was just blinded by the fact that i had no real way to up my storm count (and i've never used etw before so yeah, to me storm 4-5 was kind of mentally labeled "useless" which it actually isn't here). Thanks for making me realize that.


Hand 4 - Good call to mull. The mulligan gave you a nice draw. All you need is 1 more hard mana source (land or a black card) and you can go off turn 3.

But, what are the chances of success (ie not fizzling) by doing that "blindly" ? I first have to find that source by random drawing... and then, if it's a black card, what would you go get with IT ? A D4 (or an IGG if you were to be lucky enough to find the necessary mana) ?


Hand 5 - I think it was fine. Good job.

Hand 6 - Ok draw. That double LED was kinda hot, but seeing what you had, that probably wasn't the best choice.

Thanks. So I guess that means these two fizzles were not due to my being unable to play them correctly ?


Also, some good advice is to just practice. Know the deck. If you only know a couple ways to win, then that's too bad. The deck has a huge toolbox at your disposal.

I did see that there are always a lot of options (which makes it very interesting to play). Did I miss one at some point ? By "ways to win", you mean that in a very large sense, right ? I mean, there's no additional super tech except than basically chaining spells with possibly a final IGG before playing Tendrils/EtW ?

matelml
01-20-2008, 04:51 PM
Hand 5 - I think it was fine. Good job.



With the 5th hand you could have won with IGGy: instead of the Chant, draw IT, SSG, Rite, tap mine, Cabal ritual, IT finding the 2nd LED, LED, LED, Wish, Sac both, =>IGGy float BB, etc.

chokin
01-20-2008, 05:13 PM
Well, if you don't like ETW, take it out. But really, it's useful when you only have a storm of ~5 and you wanna avoid counters or answers of your opponents on turns 1-2. 5 Storm is great with ETW.

Finding a hard source or a black spell is actually not that bad in Hand 4 Mulligan. You only saw 1 Mox and a SSG for mana sources. There's still 10 land in the deck, 8 Black Rituals, 2 Infernal Tutors, IGG, Tendrils, and 4 Lotus Petals. So that's like 22 cards in the deck that could work for you. And if you drew into another LED, you'd have it there too. So that's really like 25 cards out of the remaining 54. So roughly 45% chance of the top card having win, and your odds get better as you draw. And that's just for a turn 1-2 kill. You'd get an LED btw.

Also, SSG don't help you get Threshold...they get removed from game.

And in Hand 6, that's why Im not a huge fan of the Draw4s. They kinda work against Infernal Tutor if you don't have LED. You did pretty good though. Sometimes you just draw into nothing. I might have mulliganed the Hand 6.

matelml
01-20-2008, 05:34 PM
T1 : Gemstone, Ponder, saw Infernal Contract (D4), Cruel Bargain (D4), Chrome Mox. I chose to not shuffle, knowing Iíd get a Draw4 for next turn. Was I right to do this up to this point ?
T2 : City of Brass.
My hand is now Chrome Mox, Infernal Contract (D4), LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame. I also know that i have a Cruel Bargain (D4) on top.
Iíd go City->Dark Ritual->Cabal Ritual->Infernal Contract, floating B (playing the Cabal with Dark mana so that i keep my multicolored mana options of Gemstone open). Storm count : 3. Am I still right ?

I draw Cruel Bargain (D4) (as expected), Gemstone, Infernal Tutor, Orimís Chant.
Now, Iíd say the correct play would be to go off by tutoring an IGG to add some storm and then tendrils.

So : Playing Gemstone, Tapping for W, Orimís Chant (Storm 4). Led (Storm 5). Mox imprinting Cruel Bargain (Storm 6). Tapping Gemstone for R, Rite of Flame (Storm 7), floating RRB. Playing Infernal Tutor (Storm 8) with Hellbent to fetch IGG. While ITís on the sack, sac LED for BBB. Mana floating : RBBB.
(by the way, simple question : if i had an extra card in hand at this point, I would still have had achieved Hellbent on ITís resolution thanks to LED, thus been able to get IGG, right ?)

Playing IGG (Storm 9). I go get Dark Ritual (i wonít have threshold anymore so I donít want Cabal), LED, and IT. Playing LED (Storm 10). Tapping Chrome Mox for B, playing Dark Ritual (Storm 11), playing IT (B floating, Storm 12) with Hellbent. Sac LED in response for BBB (BBBB floating), getting Tendrils, Tendrils for 26 life.
Wow, it went right ! :D Still, what would you have done differently ?


I think you played a 3rd land on turn 2. About the LED question: yes.



* Sample Hand 4 : Gemstone, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Canal Ritual, SSG, Rite of Flame, Orimís Chant.

My analysis : no draw, no tutor, mulligan.


Wrong, keep especially on the draw.



Mulligan into : Chrome Mox, LED, SSG, Ponder, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor.

My analysis : I canít cast a simple spell so that would go to trash bin tooÖ am I still right now that mulliganing again would mean getting only 5 cards ? Or should I hope drawing a land to use Ponder ?


Wrong, if you draw anything that makes mana you will be able to play EtW, Diminishing returns or of it's a Dark Ritual or LED, IGG.



* Sample Hand 5 : Gemstone, BWish, Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Ponder, Cabal Ritual, Orimís Chant.

My analysis : Iíd keep. Iíll be able to play Ponder on T1 to see whatís coming and getting additional mana.

T1 : Gemstone. Actually, should I play Ponder first and keep Brainstorm for later (thus being able do dig further if needed), or play Brainstorm now and counting on the possibility to Ponder next turn (at the latest) to shuffle what i would be putting back if needed ?

You should play the Ponder first.



I chose to play Ponder first, seeing LED, IT, Rite of Flame. One LED is great. I chose to not shuffle, and set up the draws so that next turn Iíll have both LED and RoF (with an IT on top).

T2 : Brainstorm, seeing IT, SSG, Orim. Now thatís pretty bad. I guess my only choice now is to Bwish for a Draw4 next turn (which I would pay for with LED). I put IT and Orim on top, which means my hand is now : LED, SSG, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, BWish, IT, Orimís Chant.

T3 : Drawing Orim as expected. LED (Storm 1). SSG, Rite of Flame, Tapping (and sacíing) Gemstone for B, Cabal Ritual (Storm 3), BWish for Cruel Bargain, sacrificing LED in response for BBB (Storm 4, BBBBR floating).

Note : I figured iíd better use my Cabal Ritual and lose my ability to generate blue with Gemstone than the opposite. Was it the optimal play ?

Playing Cruel Bargain (Storm 5, BR floating). Drawing Tendrils, Undiscovered Paradise, Gemstone, Infernal Tutor. At this point, iíd have to concede the game.
Did i go wrong somewhere, or was it just ę tough luck Ľ ?

Again, you should have set the IT on top instead of Chant and used the IT to find a 2nd LED, play 2 LED's, play Wish, Crack LED's, find IGG.



* Sample Hand 6 : City, Mox, Mox, SSG, SSG, Ponder, Cruel Bargain.

My analysis : I can use Ponder to help me get the black mana needed to use Cruel Bargain, or to find a tutorÖ but i donít know if this is enough to keep it. Since Iím lacking experience, and playing it doesnít really cost me anything, I chose to play it, but itís very possible that itís not the correct choice. Was it ?

This time I am not sure, I don't have much experiance with Draw4's and this hand is very weak. I don't know.



T1 : City, Ponder. Seeing LED, LED, Rite of Flame. Neither black mana nor tutor. Now thatís not good at all. Shuffle, and I draw a Ponder. GreatÖ

T2 : Drawing Orimís Chant. Playing Ponder, seeing Infernal Contract (D4), Lotus Petal, and Dark Ritual. Now thatís what I needed. I draw the Dark Rit and put Lotus on top (maybe i should have doneit the other way in the abstract, but it doesnt really matter here).

T3 : Drawing Lotus as expected. Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain (8 life, Storm 2). Drawing Infernal Contract (as expected), Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, IT.

My hand is now : Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, SSG, SSG, Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Infernal Contract, Infernal Tutor, Orimís Chant.
Chrome Mox imprinting SSG (Storm 3). SSG (i chose not to imprint this second one to Chrome Mox, thus helping me reach threshold for the upcoming Cabal Ritual)

Wrong, it's removed.


, R floating, 5 cards in Graveyard. Rite of Flame (Storm 4, RR floating). Lotus Petal, sacíed for B : Storm 5, RRB floating, Threshold. Cabal Ritual (Storm 6), BBBBBR floating. Infernal Contract (BBR floating, Storm 7). Drawing City, Gemstone, RoF, IT.

My hand is now : Gemstone, City, Chrome Mox, RoF, IT, IT, Orimís Chant. Storm 7, BBR floating, 4 life. In play : one tapped City, untapped Chrome Mox with SGG imprinted.

My only solution is to use everything to do reach Hellbent and IT for a win condition like Tendrils. But I canít this turn since I have two lands in hand. Iím screwed again 

After the first draw4 you could have achieved hellbent with the Moxes and played IT=>EtW.



Ok, so in the end it will only be 6 hands, but Iím a bit tired (slept 5 hours last night) and actually typing it out took quite a long time and Iím short on time now. Still, they're about representative of my experience with the deck (heck, this is almost my entire experience with it). And, out of these 6 hands :

-number 2 was an auto-loss (well i didn't try mulliganing to 4...). number 4 also looks like it to me. that's 33 %
-number 5 & 6, while promising, died on me along the way. another 33 %
-number 3 was a win yeah !
-number 1 might, in fact, have been playable (after the mulligan to 6).

What do you guys think ? Have I played optimally, or at least correctly (no blatant mistakes/misplays/bad decisions) ? Then, is this low success rate (1 out 6, maybe 2) (plus, facing no opposing disruption) due to my having had actual bad luck on these few samples ?

Thank you all for your feedback.

ParkerLewis
01-21-2008, 09:19 AM
Well, if you don't like ETW, take it out. But really, it's useful when you only have a storm of ~5 and you wanna avoid counters or answers of your opponents on turns 1-2. 5 Storm is great with ETW.

Nonono, I was just implying that I was in a wrong mindset, and hadn't considered that yes, EtW makes a 4-5 Storm count good enough.


Finding a hard source or a black spell is actually not that bad in Hand 4 Mulligan. You only saw 1 Mox and a SSG for mana sources. There's still 10 land in the deck, 8 Black Rituals, 2 Infernal Tutors, IGG, Tendrils, and 4 Lotus Petals. So that's like 22 cards in the deck that could work for you. And if you drew into another LED, you'd have it there too. So that's really like 25 cards out of the remaining 54. So roughly 45% chance of the top card having win, and your odds get better as you draw. And that's just for a turn 1-2 kill. You'd get an LED btw.

True... !


Also, SSG don't help you get Threshold...they get removed from game.

yeah, i forget to actually remove them from the game about half the time.



* Sample Hand 4 : Gemstone, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Canal Ritual, SSG, Rite of Flame, Orimís Chant.

My analysis : no draw, no tutor, mulligan.

Wrong, keep especially on the draw.

? The cards i desperately need in this case are either BWish, IT, a D4, or a Ponder : 12 cards. I have about 50 % chance of drawing at least one in the first 3 draws.

Are these odds seriously enough for you ??



Mulligan into : Chrome Mox, LED, SSG, Ponder, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor.

My analysis : I canít cast a simple spell so that would go to trash bin tooÖ am I still right now that mulliganing again would mean getting only 5 cards ? Or should I hope drawing a land to use Ponder ?

Wrong, if you draw anything that makes mana you will be able to play EtW, Diminishing returns or of it's a Dark Ritual or LED, IGG.

Granted, the odds are better in this case, around 2 out of 3, that I can see as worthwile.



After the first draw4 you could have achieved hellbent with the Moxes and played IT=>EtW.

Very true. As I'm still a novice with the deck I guess I was kind of blinded by the possibility of drawing into more cards, not seeing how :

- I had an out without needing them

and most of all,

-drawing more cards CAN screw you over (making you unable to reach hellbent).


Thanks for your input.

matelml
01-21-2008, 12:06 PM
? The cards i desperately need in this case are either BWish, IT, a D4, or a Ponder : 12 cards. I have about 50 % chance of drawing at least one in the first 3 draws.

Are these odds seriously enough for you ??


On the draw you have 3 extra cards on turn 3, which is usually the last turn I try to win on. You have I think around 58% to draw one of those by then. Even if you need more time you can use the Chant to get an extra turn. If you draw another Chant you can probably get an extra turn for that too. Also I play 1 bussines spell more in my deck and depending on the situation drawing ETW/Diminishing Returns can be good too.

chokin
01-21-2008, 01:26 PM
Mateml is right. And if you don't draw a card you need, then you have increased odds to get it soon after that third draw.

I'm curious as to what sort of list everyone is running as of right now. Post?

4 SSG

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract

4 Orim's Chant

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard //
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
3 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin War Strike
4 REB/Pyroblast

I think this list is pretty good. I haven't won with ETW more than 2 or 3 times with this list though. I usually go for the throat with Tendrils. I'm gonna fine tune it. Maybe trim a Contract for another land. Or add Impulse to the mix.

Mental
01-21-2008, 01:41 PM
Mateml is right. And if you don't draw a card you need, then you have increased odds to get it soon after that third draw.

I'm curious as to what sort of list everyone is running as of right now. Post?

4 SSG

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract

4 Orim's Chant

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard //
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
3 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin War Strike
4 REB/Pyroblast

I think this list is pretty good. I haven't won with ETW more than 2 or 3 times with this list though. I usually go for the throat with Tendrils. I'm gonna fine tune it. Maybe trim a Contract for another land. Or add Impulse to the mix.

I'm running your list exactly, except that my SB is different:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Tranquility
1 Cave-In
1 Hull Breach
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abeyance
4 REB/Pyroblast

Goblin War Strike is awful, IMO.

matelml
01-21-2008, 02:09 PM
Not having at least 1 Duress/Thoughtseize Sb is definitely a mistake. Also Impluse<Diabolic Vision (it lets you put back in any order) and Ponder>>>Diabolic Vision.

My list:

Obvious stuff

3 Chrome Mox
3 SSG
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ponder
2 Plunge into Darkness
1 EtW

Sb
1 EtW
1 Diminishing Returns
1 ToA
1 IGG
1 Duress
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Duress
1 To be determined

BreathWeapon
01-21-2008, 02:40 PM
Why is 3 Diminishing Returns any better than 1 maindeck? It's still ridiculously dependent on Lotus Petal to cast from your hand unless you use Infernal Tutor/LED or Burning Wish/LED, which in either case means the number in your deck doesn't matter.

Diminishing Returns is an additional threat, and barring Ponder, the deck isn't using enough threats to withstand the mulligans. I don't see how Diminishing Returns is any more reliant on Lotus Petal than Infernal Contract is reliant on Dark Ritual, unless you're trying to use Orim's Chant on the same turn you go off, 15 U sources + 8 Chrome Mox sources + Tinder Wall go is usually a turn 2 cast.

The deck either needs more threat density or it needs Ponder, IMO, multiple Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens just makes you less reliant on LED.

chokin
01-21-2008, 03:48 PM
Diminishing Returns is an additional threat, and barring Ponder, the deck isn't using enough threats to withstand the mulligans. I don't see how Diminishing Returns is any more reliant on Lotus Petal than Infernal Contract is reliant on Dark Ritual, unless you're trying to use Orim's Chant on the same turn you go off, 15 U sources + 8 Chrome Mox sources + Tinder Wall go is usually a turn 2 cast.

The deck either needs more threat density or it needs Ponder, IMO, multiple Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens just makes you less reliant on LED.

3 Diminishing Returns clogs the deck. Drawing into them is not good. Tutoring into them is ok. You don't need more than 1 because of the Infernal Tutors and Burning Wishes. I don't know why you'd ever want to play more than 1. You basically put Tinder Wall in there to support an earlier DR or Warrens(both cranked to 3 each). Tinder Wall will never be better than Rite of Flame, as it can only ever make 2 mana. I suppose if you cast it, wait and then do it, it's like a free RoF, but that's like saying Xantid Swarm is better than Orim's Chant. Chant and RoF can't be killed, only countered.

You're making the deck more like Belcher, and I think that's the wrong direction.

Citrus-God
01-23-2008, 11:57 AM
3 Diminishing Returns clogs the deck. Drawing into them is not good. Tutoring into them is ok. You don't need more than 1 because of the Infernal Tutors and Burning Wishes. I don't know why you'd ever want to play more than 1. You basically put Tinder Wall in there to support an earlier DR or Warrens(both cranked to 3 each). Tinder Wall will never be better than Rite of Flame, as it can only ever make 2 mana. I suppose if you cast it, wait and then do it, it's like a free RoF, but that's like saying Xantid Swarm is better than Orim's Chant. Chant and RoF can't be killed, only countered.

You're making the deck more like Belcher, and I think that's the wrong direction.

Not to mention the only way to cast them is to crack LED. Playing Draw-4s are much better because of how easy they're to cast.

chokin
01-23-2008, 05:03 PM
Not to mention the only way to cast them is to crack LED. Playing Draw-4s are much better because of how easy they're to cast.

Well, you can play both ETW and DR without using LED, but the double blue in DR is a pain most of the time. Also, with the removal of 10 cards at a time out of the deck, it's like a Glimpse the Unthinkable on yourself with no real benefit. At least with Glimpse you could like...IGG something...or if you were other decks, reanimate or Dredge. But DR is cool for a draw 7 at most 2 times...which is why there is one in board and one in the main.

Draw 4's can be cast off of a single Dark/Cabal Ritual or two lands and a Petal/Mox or in extreme cases, Infernal Tutor with LED. DR can't...it takes more steam and kinda needs Chant(or Swarm) to be really good.

ETW is really nice on the early turns, but I wouldn't wanna see more than 2 in a game either. It's nice to see a turn 1 Petal, RoF, RoF, Mox, ETW for 10, but most of the times it'll be Mox fodder because 4cc makes it too hard to get out of hand when you have Infernal Tutor (without LED obviously).

matelml
01-23-2008, 05:54 PM
[QUOTE=chokin;201589] Also, with the removal of 10 cards at a time out of the deck, it's like a Glimpse the Unthinkable on yourself with no real benefit. At least with Glimpse you could like...IGG something...or if you were other decks, reanimate or Dredge.[QUOTE]


....:rolleyes:
Right, that's really the biggest disadvantage of Diminishing Returns.

Citrus-God
01-24-2008, 11:35 AM
....:rolleyes:
Right, that's really the biggest disadvantage of Diminishing Returns.

*pointing out the obvious


Yea... it's the UU2 in it's cost.

NQN
01-25-2008, 10:43 AM
Yesterday i got 2nd at a small local tournament with TES because i lost against Dragonstompy in the finals(agaiN :S). In g1 I was on the play, knew what he was playing and had the following hand:
2x City,Mine,Mox,D.Ritual,Infernal Tutor,Chant
Would you keep this while hoping for a 2nd ritual or a LED from the top to go for EtW?
I mulliganed it, played first turn ponder and said GO.
He played Chalice zero and Chalice one followed by a 2nd Turn trinisphere. The same in Game 2. But basicaly i want to know if my first decision was wrong.
Please help me :)
Jan

PS: I looked at the topcard, it was an LED.

Bryant Cook
01-25-2008, 10:48 AM
ETW tokens is best vs. them.

chokin
01-25-2008, 11:34 AM
Depending on your sideboards ability to fight artifacts (I have 3 Spree), I'd have boarded those in to fight 3Sphere and CotV. Also, when you know you are going to be fighting a deck like DS, Stax, or even FS, a small ETW on the early turns is more than enough to beat them as WastedLife said.

If you expect DS matches or other heavy artifact builds, go for more hate to fight it.

NQN
01-25-2008, 04:43 PM
I know that EtW is really good, but i had to topdeck in only 1 card :S Keep or Mull?

ReAnimated
01-25-2008, 11:40 PM
Hey Bryant what is your exact list at the moment?

Bryant Cook
01-27-2008, 08:33 PM
This is what I top 4'd/8'd with....

Bryant Cook - TES

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Orim's Chant
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

SB:
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Contract

Mental
01-27-2008, 11:04 PM
This is what I top 4'd/8'd with....

Bryant Cook - TES

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Orim's Chant
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

SB:
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Contract

So the MD hasn't changed and the SB is basically the same.

Silvoz
01-28-2008, 03:01 PM
In the last few weeks, during testing i got too many hands with no or just bad start mana and too many Chrome Mox. My decklist is just the same as bryants.
My question now is, what do you think off cutting a Mox for a Tarnished Citadell?

myselves
01-28-2008, 04:29 PM
In the last few weeks, during testing i got too many hands with no or just bad start mana and too many Chrome Mox. My decklist is just the same as bryants.
My question now is, what do you think off cutting a Mox for a Tarnished Citadell?

Nothing, C.Mox counts, Citadel doesn't.
In the last 6 games I played T.E.S, I got a hand with 3 SSG and a hand with 4 SSG, but I won't suggest to cut the SSG, cause I got too many of them on my last hands.

matelml
01-28-2008, 04:52 PM
I have been playing with 3 Chrome Mox and 1 Citadel for a while with succes, so I would advise to try.

Silvoz
01-28-2008, 05:03 PM
Nothing, C.Mox counts, Citadel doesn't.
In the last 6 games I played T.E.S, I got a hand with 3 SSG and a hand with 4 SSG, but I won't suggest to cut the SSG, cause I got too many of them on my last hands.

Its not just 6 hands but about 100 hands I played these weeks! And yeah Mox counts but it always gives carddisadvantage and only 1 color, I think I'll test the 11th land. And btw stop sensless flaming.

NQN
01-29-2008, 11:56 AM
I play only 9 lands and therefor 1 more C.Ritual, with some sucess too ;) I normaly have turn 1 combo or 1-2 lands, or both :) Until now my tournament count is 32-7-2. Last saturday i had a quite weird day with TES: I had to play against
r1 TES 2-1
r2 Balanced NQG/r 6 FoW in total kicked my ass 0-2
r3 Baseruption 2-1
r4 Whitestaxx 2-1
r5 4c Landstill 2-0

I think i have to change my deck there, 4 bad matchups and 1 mirror isnīt the best meta :(

hall0n
02-02-2008, 07:09 AM
What kind of a sideboard you would recommend to blind meta (well, I know what my team member's are going to play, but that's it)? My current list is the same as wastedlife's latest posted into this thread, but sideboard is a little different;

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Pyroclasm / Earthquake *which one is better, nobody seems to play Gaddock Teeg, so I don't really know whether Earthquake is better than 'clasm.
1 Tranquility
1 Shattering Spree
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Pyroblast
3 Duress *man, I can't afford Thoughtseizes.
1 Free slot

I placed two Duress' in place of the Abeyances/REB's and they have been serving me quite well. In the one free slot I have been playing second EtW, which can be boarded in sometimes when I want to go for goblin-beatdown.

Ch@os
02-02-2008, 01:11 PM
How do you guys board against NQG and Decks like Countersliver?
I find nothing put out :/

Mental
02-02-2008, 01:28 PM
How do you guys board against NQG and Decks like Countersliver?
I find nothing put out :/

Take out the Cabal Rituals and Contracts/Bargains. Those are your "open" slots.

kicks_422
02-02-2008, 09:55 PM
It's somewhere at the start of the thread, actually. It's always -2 each of Ponder, Cabal Rit, and SSG for 4 Pyroblast and 2 Xantid Swarms.

Jak
02-02-2008, 11:41 PM
Take out the Cabal Rituals and Contracts/Bargains. Those are your "open" slots.

Draw 4s help you win the counter war when you side in REBs and Pyroblast. Do not side them out.

Mental
02-04-2008, 12:56 AM
Draw 4s help you win the counter war when you side in REBs and Pyroblast. Do not side them out.

Wow, I'm dumb. I meant the ponders and the Cabal Rits.

r0ckstAr
02-07-2008, 03:56 AM
What about replacing Tranquility with Simplify in the sideboard ?
During my testing, facing several problematic enchants was a very, very marginal situation

chokin
02-07-2008, 04:22 AM
What about replacing Tranquility with Simplify in the sideboard ?
During my testing, facing several problematic enchants was a very, very marginal situation

Counterbalance in Thresh is kind of an issue. Ans since they have a lot of 1cc cards, Simplify would be hard to use. Hell, sometimes getting a Wish off would be a pain.

r0ckstAr
02-07-2008, 06:54 AM
That's a good point for tranquility, and a bad one for simplify, although i think i'll go for the white tranquility (i don't remember the name) as i sometimes have a chant under mox.

Mictlantecuhtli
02-07-2008, 07:09 AM
That's a good point for tranquility, and a bad one for simplify, although i think i'll go for the white tranquility (i don't remember the name) as i sometimes have a chant under mox.

White Tranquility -> Cleanfall

It does make sense - the probability of TES being able to cast Cleanfall is slightly (very slightly) higher than Tranquility.

Nightmare
02-07-2008, 10:49 AM
Originally we ran Tranquility because we ran Xantid Swarm, and were more likely to have a Swarm under a Mox than a white card. Since the switch to Chant in the MD, Cleanfall is the better Tranquility effect in the sideboard.

Bryant Cook
02-07-2008, 03:02 PM
Originally we ran Tranquility because we ran Xantid Swarm, and were more likely to have a Swarm under a Mox than a white card. Since the switch to Chant in the MD, Cleanfall is the better Tranquility effect in the sideboard.

I completely agree, however, it's almost irrelevant. Until I can find a pimp Cleanfall it will stay Tranquility.

hall0n
02-09-2008, 02:44 PM
I played TES today in a rather small tournament (~20 people) and went 1-1-3, and wasn't very satisfied with me record. My list was still the same as the last one wastedlife posted, although my sb as follows:

1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Pyroblast
3 Duress
2 Shattering Spree (for the Stax and Dragon Stompy matches, and I couldn't get hold of any Infernal Contracts nor Cruel Bargains)
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm

Maybe I'll write a brief report as I've got nothing else to do.

First match: with White Weenie.
I lost the die roll and my opponent plays Savannah Lions, I play a land and pass. Then he plays mystic morph -creature. I make 12 goblin tokens and ride for the win. On the second match my opponent can't get a third mana source to play his hate (Glowrider and Rule of Law) and drain 20 life from him with Tendrils, so 2-0 victory.

2nd: VuRkka, he's my teammate so we take a draw.

3nd: UGW-LoamIntuitionTog.
I lost the die roll and the whole game. I made 14 goblins in my first turn but my opponent has deed and the rest is a cake walk for him. I side in Pyroblasts. I drew a hand with good protection, but no business. My opponent plays Tog and we pass turns and change counters. I can't draw the needed parts to combo off and he finishes me of with a huge Tog. 0-2

4th: Non-recruiter Aluren.
I mull to 5 and my opponent to 6. He can't get another mana source and I won with tendrils after playing two Chant's to protect my combo. I side Pyroblasts again, and maybe Duresses. I mull to 6 and my opponent rapes my hand with Cabal Therapies and comboes off. In the third game I keep 7, with no lands but with a first turn duress and possible second turn EtW. He has Therapies again and finally finds Intuition which finds Aluren and goes off, and I don't draw any Pyroblasts. 1-2

5th: Ugb-Thresh with CounterTop.
The first game goes to CounterTop and he beats me off with 'goyfs I manage to draw 3 Chrome Moxen! I side in Pyroblasts and Duresses taking out couple of those blasted moxes.. My opening hand is: Undiscovered Paradise, Wish, Brainstorm, 2 SSG, 2 LED and I decide to go for the EtW on my first turn and my opponent concedes. In the last game the CounterTop does it's tricks again. 1-2


The deck was rather good overall, but the matchups weren't the easiest ones (at least I didn't get paired against Dragon Stompys ar Stax-decks). I once hoped that one of the moxes should have been something else, I could recommend trying Tarnished Citadel, although it deals high amount of pain. And the second Spree should have been Contract/Bargain, because I had several situations where I couldn't get more than 3 mana after casting Burning Wish.

chokin
02-10-2008, 04:43 AM
Originally we ran Tranquility because we ran Xantid Swarm, and were more likely to have a Swarm under a Mox than a white card. Since the switch to Chant in the MD, Cleanfall is the better Tranquility effect in the sideboard.

Good call. With 0 cards being green in the MD, Cleanfall would be perfect.

Isn't there a blue card that returns enchantments? Maybe it's an instant, therefore no good. I dunno.

I just looked it up. 5cc. Not good.

What's THE list to run nowadays? Sideboard of choice? With Dragon Stompy being everywhere, is it better to run 3-4 Shattering Spree in the board, with less Duress/Thoughtseize? Or maybe rework the board to focus on the bad matchups. Just thoughts.

Silvoz
02-10-2008, 08:37 AM
Good call. With 0 cards being green in the MD, Cleanfall would be perfect.

Isn't there a blue card that returns enchantments? Maybe it's an instant, therefore no good. I dunno.

I just looked it up. 5cc. Not good.

What's THE list to run nowadays? Sideboard of choice? With Dragon Stompy being everywhere, is it better to run 3-4 Shattering Spree in the board, with less Duress/Thoughtseize? Or maybe rework the board to focus on the bad matchups. Just thoughts.

There is no THE list at all, but I think Wastedlife's list is the list of choice, with maybe some small personal changes, as for me I'm trying the 11th land instead of the 4th mox. My board at the moment is:
4x Duress/ Thoughtseize (only have duress :frown: )
2x Xantid swarm
3x Shattering Spree
1x EtW
1x Pyroclasm
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Tranquility/Cleanfall (Foil Tranquility looks much better :tongue: )
1x DReturns

Yeah it is missing the Contract but I want to Include it again.
I didn't like the Blasts at all but i think they will go in again for maybe 3x Duress 1x Xantid, testing will show.
@hall0n: As said before by others the right number for Spree is 1 or 3 but never 2!

BreathWeapon
02-11-2008, 07:23 PM
There is no THE list at all, but I think Wastedlife's list is the list of choice, with maybe some small personal changes, as for me I'm trying the 11th land instead of the 4th mox. My board at the moment is:
4x Duress/ Thoughtseize (only have duress :frown: )
2x Xantid swarm
3x Shattering Spree
1x EtW
1x Pyroclasm
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x Tranquility/Cleanfall (Foil Tranquility looks much better :tongue: )
1x DReturns

Yeah it is missing the Contract but I want to Include it again.
I didn't like the Blasts at all but i think they will go in again for maybe 3x Duress 1x Xantid, testing will show.
@hall0n: As said before by others the right number for Spree is 1 or 3 but never 2!

I'm not a fan of the 2 Draw 4/Cabal Ritual package, it's been inconsistent for me IRL and I've preferred to see Ponder instead of a Draw 4 in testing. I think the real problem is Cabal Ritual, that card is awful in the opening grip with out a Draw 4. A full set of Ponder and rounding out the deck with a couple of Abeyances has made it run smoother. 8 U cantrips also lets the deck float a U after Diminishing Returns and cast a cantrip after drawing a new hand, which ups the % you win the game immediately after resolving it. Just be sure to cut Undiscovered Paradise for Tarnished Citadels.

Silvoz
02-13-2008, 04:44 PM
I'm not a fan of the 2 Draw 4/Cabal Ritual package, it's been inconsistent for me IRL and I've preferred to see Ponder instead of a Draw 4 in testing. I think the real problem is Cabal Ritual, that card is awful in the opening grip with out a Draw 4. A full set of Ponder and rounding out the deck with a couple of Abeyances has made it run smoother. 8 U cantrips also lets the deck float a U after Diminishing Returns and cast a cantrip after drawing a new hand, which ups the % you win the game immediately after resolving it. Just be sure to cut Undiscovered Paradise for Tarnished Citadels.

I don't like the 8 cantrip setup. This is no deck that wants to have them in multiplies in hand or draw a cantrip out of a cantrip, you dont want to use your lands for cantrips too often. A setup of 6 has proven good so far, for me and for others. I do like the Draw4 and I do like Cabal Rit. even without them. Draw4 just after some "counterwar" can win games, and they, as a must counter, draw counter from opponents hands. If you don't like them don't play them, but I would recommend you to do a little more testing with Draw4s.

myselves
02-17-2008, 07:31 AM
In a meta full of Control, I would actually like to play Bob, so I changed the SB to:
4 Bob
4 Abeyance - Swarm is just no use, and I have learned to deteste the Blasts the last times
7 Wishboard Slots
Is this possible? Actually it seems to be quite good enough to me.

matelml
02-17-2008, 08:37 AM
It depends on how your opponents sideboard. If they keep in Swords game 2/3 than the Xantid Swarms aren't great, but if they don't Xantid Swarm is a lot better than Abeyance. I use the Xantid, but if you see a lot of people boarding this way you can consider switching.

PhanTom_lt
03-07-2008, 05:30 PM
You get Burning Gifts, as Gifts Ungiven is an instant, therefore, unfetchable with B.Wish.

from Cairo
03-07-2008, 05:32 PM
Is it a bad idea to put a single Gifts Ungiven in the sideboard and Gifts for... Burning Wish #2, Ill-Gotten Gains, Infernal Tutor, and Lion's Eye Diamond.

I don't play this deck, but considering Gifts Ungiven is an Instant, yes it is probably a bad idea to include it as a Burning Wish target.

DeepfriedDynamite
03-11-2008, 04:25 PM
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract
4 Orim's Chant
4 Simian Spirit guide
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone
1 Undescovered paradise
1 Rakdos Carnarium

Sideboard //
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
4 Leyline

Now, I realize the first thing people are going to say when they look at my list is: What the fuck is up with the singleton rakdos carnarium. The card was suprisingly good after I decided to test it when me a and friend were joking around. Its CIPT makes turn 1 kills slightly less likely but in turn makes the turn 2 and 3 kills more consistent. If you play it as your first land then you dont need to return a land to your hand so it comes into play normally as far as I know and no one has corrected me on this so far.

cann0nfodder
03-11-2008, 04:30 PM
Sir, allow me to be the first to correct you. If you play Rakdos Carnarium as your first land then it will hit play, then its ability will go on the stack and then it will bounce itself. You will need another land in play before you can actually hope to use Carnarium therefore the card is terrible in this deck.

Dilettante
03-11-2008, 04:31 PM
Now, I realize the first thing people are going to say when they look at my list is: What the fuck is up with the singleton rakdos carnarium. The card was suprisingly good after I decided to test it when me a and friend were joking around. Its CIPT makes turn 1 kills slightly less likely but in turn makes the turn 2 and 3 kills more consistent. If you play it as your first land then you dont need to return a land to your hand so it comes into play normally as far as I know and no one has corrected me on this so far.

Carnarium is still a land you control. It is in play when the triggered effect happens. You still have to return it to your hand. Sea Drakes, you need not return 2 lands so long as you only control one.

Espenhein
03-11-2008, 04:32 PM
You need to return a land, so you cant play it 1st turn, which makes it a bad choice.

Bryant Cook
03-11-2008, 04:39 PM
Yeah, Dude above me is right.

Now let's travel back in time about three months, When Slithermuse was previewed. We all had our hopes up and then they were killed. While arriving home from college, I couldn't wait to start goldfishing TES. What can I say, I love my deck. I decided that it needed some change, I decided to test a random Slithermuse in a few slots. I've come to the conclusion as a 1x of over a draw 4 is alright. However, 2 seemed to be a bit clunky at 4 mana. I only go for it on turn 1 off of a tutor, or if I randomly draw it I don't base the hand around it. It's a card you have to use properly or it sucks. I'd recommend people trying it out over the 2nd draw4, they share the same effect.

Lets here it...

Dilettante
03-11-2008, 05:00 PM
Well, what situations is Slithermuse better than IGGing or Draw 4? I can see that when you don't have a burning wish and need more storm count than single IGG, i.e. 3 spells before going off like having a hand with land, SSG, and 2 LED with the Infernal Tutor... or lacking security with the residual mana sources and having a LED. Those occasions can happen and I would not mind a single Slithermuse taking the place of a draw 4. It gives the security of not walking into subsequent Force of Wills and such that Diminishing Returns suffers from when there is not an active Orim's Chant. In the current meta, TES still is just as consistent, but... does not have as much consistent speed as a deck like Ichorid. Being able to pull the turn 1 more consistently, which Slithermuse does offer some stimulus to that edge.

It also lets you regain your card advantage after a bad mulligan if you are on the go and chance it with your new draw... with a storm count but likely having played a land. That is likely its biggest advantage... being an out for bad mulligans.

Bryant Cook
03-13-2008, 12:01 AM
What are people's SB's currently? I'm looking for ideas...

I have 6 available slots, 4x Blasts

leaving me with two. I'm currently looking at...
2x Shattering spree (bringing count to 3)
2x Dark Confidant
2x Blast

What do people think? I'm also loving Slithermuse as a one of.

Jak
03-13-2008, 12:14 AM
What are people's SB's currently? I'm looking for ideas...

I have 6 available slots, 4x Blasts

leaving me with two. I'm currently looking at...
2x Shattering spree (bringing count to 3)
2x Dark Confidant
2x Blast

What do people think? I'm also loving Slithermuse as a one of.

Haven't used TES in a while, but mine is:

1 IGG
1 D Returns
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 Draw 4
3 Shattering Spress
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tranquility
1 Duress (Thoughtseize if I get one)
4 Blasts

3 Sprees are really meta dependent. I will probably go back to one and add 2 Xantid Swarms, but my firend plays Dragon Stompy and I like owning hime.

J.V.
03-13-2008, 12:27 AM
Mine is currently as follows:

2 Pyroblast
2 Abeyance
2 Shattering Spree
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Contract
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cleanfall
1 Thoughtseize
1 Goblin War Strike

Also in my testing Slithermuse has been good for me, I like it (also as a 1 of over a main draw 4)

Bryant Cook
03-13-2008, 12:34 AM
Mine is currently as follows:

2 Pyroblast
2 Abeyance
2 Shattering Spree
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Contract
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cleanfall
1 Thoughtseize
1 Goblin War Strike

Also in my testing Slithermuse has been good for me, I like it (also as a 1 of over a main draw 4)

Goblin War Strike (GWS), really? I dunno. It's really only worth it if you play 3 ETW maindeck. To me atleast. How has it been for you?

I used to love Abeyance, really, but have you ever found it too mana intensive? That was my problem with it. Needing Black, Red, and White then an additional 1 ontop was hard at times. Once again, how has it been for you?

J.V.
03-13-2008, 12:40 AM
Goblin War Strike (GWS), really? I dunno. It's really only worth it if you play 3 ETW maindeck. To me atleast. How has it been for you?

I used to love Abeyance, really, but have you ever found it too mana intensive? That was my problem with it. Needing Black, Red, and White then an additional 1 ontop was hard at times. Once again, how has it been for you?
Warstrike has pulled out a few random wins from me but will probably become Shattering Spree #3 as for abeyance I haven't really had to many issues with mana after an abeyance, I mean it happens occasionally, but the games where it really matters like against thresh and landstill they really don't have a "fast" clock so I usually have some time to get a couple of lands before I push out a combo turn. (obviously turn 1 empty for 10-12 happens pretty often too, but you know what I mean)

Dilettante
03-13-2008, 12:52 AM
I am an idiot:

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Rough / Tumble
1 Cleanfall
1 Shattering Spree
1 Thoughtseize
1 Goblin War Strike
2 Xantid Swarm
4 Pernicious Deed

Deeds are a meta decision. I find myself doing EoT clears of Counterbalance/Chalice with it... Shattering Spree and doesn't stop Counterbalance, unfortunately... and Counterbalance at 2 for this deck is pretty much its downfall.

Mental
03-13-2008, 01:36 AM
I am an idiot:

1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Rough / Tumble
1 Cleanfall
1 Shattering Spree
1 Thoughtseize
1 Goblin War Strike
2 Xantid Swarm
4 Pernicious Deed

Deeds are a meta decision. I find myself doing EoT clears of Counterbalance/Chalice with it... Shattering Spree and doesn't stop Counterbalance, unfortunately... and Counterbalance at 2 for this deck is pretty much its downfall.

Amusing, but is Deed better against decks with Counterbalance, Force of Will, and Daze then Chant, Abeyance, REB, or Hull Breach is?

Dilettante
03-13-2008, 01:48 AM
Amusing, but is Deed better against decks with Counterbalance, Force of Will, and Daze then Chant, Abeyance, REB, or Hull Breach is?

They can pretty much sit on it, disrupting your tutors and sometimes your mana sources... What does Chant do against Counterbalance if you can't crack your tutor to loop? You can draw into your one EtW... You can bust their CB with REB, making them set their CB to 1 or get blown up, and overextend themselves so that you can sneak your tutors through, but that is easier said than done... Orim's Chant/Abeyance can negate Brainstorm being a factor, but there is still Top. In addition, Deed takes away the early clocks of decks that run such disruption... except Tombstalker.

Mental
03-13-2008, 01:49 AM
It's called versatility. Fuck, run GRIP if you want an out to Deed.

Tacosnape
03-13-2008, 03:41 AM
Why Deed over, say, Seal of Primordium/Cleansing, which is cheaper to play (not to mention use), kills Counterbalance/Chalice/Trinisphere/Whatever, and can actually come down before a Counterbalance hits play to eliminate any longshot of the Counterbalance itself countering it?

Dilettante
03-13-2008, 08:02 AM
Again, Meta Choice... Gaddock Teeg wrecks me and loads of decks around here run him in Side, primarily Survival and UGW Thresh w/ Counter Top. He's used to stuff both Storm Combo and Belcher. Gaddock Teeg essentially makes you have a 4-card deck. If you don't get Burning Wish and resolve it, you lose. Also, for matching against Belcher... if they immediately go off on EtW and I can't immediately tendrils off... It's a card that deals with all those issues, and then some. It lacks the non-counterability of Grip, but I find it useful for more matches instead of the single matchup against CB/Top decks. There is also the jank that runs True Believer and Meddling Mage. It is a pain to need a Burning Wish just for a Rough/Tumble to clear them. Not to mention that you need 2-4 more mana for going off... You can just EoT clear and go off the following turn.

Bryant Cook
03-13-2008, 12:45 PM
Again, Meta Choice... Gaddock Teeg wrecks me and loads of decks around here run him in Side, primarily Survival and UGW Thresh w/ Counter Top. He's used to stuff both Storm Combo and Belcher. Gaddock Teeg essentially makes you have a 4-card deck. If you don't get Burning Wish and resolve it, you lose. Also, for matching against Belcher... if they immediately go off on EtW and I can't immediately tendrils off... It's a card that deals with all those issues, and then some. It lacks the non-counterability of Grip, but I find it useful for more matches instead of the single matchup against CB/Top decks. There is also the jank that runs True Believer and Meddling Mage. It is a pain to need a Burning Wish just for a Rough/Tumble to clear them. Not to mention that you need 2-4 more mana for going off... You can just EoT clear and go off the following turn.

You should be running Clasm, not rough/tumble. We don't play Xantid anymore. It seems that the creatures are your problem, not artifacts, enchantments, or whatever else. Honestly, if you're losing to astral slide; I wouldn't recommend Deed. I'd recommend goldfishing a lot more, TES is a very hard deck to play and you may just be playing it wrong - I'm sorry if I come off like a jackass here. If they slide out their Gaddeck Teeg, there's your chance to win. You don't need to blow anything up. Deed for ETW tokens? Burning Wish for Clasm wasn't good enough? ETW tokens still give you until turn 3 to win. I'm very rarely afraid of ETW tokens out of that deck. Deed still is a mana sink too, 1BG and then X. 6 mana to kill that Astral Slide you were talking about. I'd just goldfish a lot more, you may not realize some winning hands yet. I can't say this is you because I've never seen you play, but some people can't see the win in their hand. Especially without an LED. Just practice. I don't think you want answers, I think you want to be able to go off faster.

Dilettante
03-13-2008, 01:38 PM
You should be running Clasm, not rough/tumble. We don't play Xantid anymore. It seems that the creatures are your problem, not artifacts, enchantments, or whatever else. Honestly, if you're losing to astral slide; I wouldn't recommend Deed. I'd recommend goldfishing a lot more, TES is a very hard deck to play and you may just be playing it wrong - I'm sorry if I come off like a jackass here. If they slide out their Gaddeck Teeg, there's your chance to win. You don't need to blow anything up. Deed for ETW tokens? Burning Wish for Clasm wasn't good enough? ETW tokens still give you until turn 3 to win. I'm very rarely afraid of ETW tokens out of that deck. Deed still is a mana sink too, 1BG and then X. 6 mana to kill that Astral Slide you were talking about. I'd just goldfish a lot more, you may not realize some winning hands yet. I can't say this is you because I've never seen you play, but some people can't see the win in their hand. Especially without an LED. Just practice. I don't think you want answers, I think you want to be able to go off faster.


I do always want to go off faster, but lately, I'm holding back on EtW wins against certain decks... I run into too many times where I get my EtW tokens wiped off by everything from turn 1 Engineered Plague/Infest off a ritual to Engineered Explosives. People around here see a lot of belcher and run the same hate against TES... so it's not a deck that I can goldfish as much around here, I actually have to *play* it... This is a meta that... lacks things like Deadguy, Landstill, Loam decks... and is heavily Thresh, Ichorid, Belcher, Survival, and now, growing Stompy... Oh yeah, and janky burn decks that love to drop Pyrostatic Pillar. Just Burning Wish isn't enough... 4 cards to sneak a win through against a gauntlet of CB/Top dazes, and force of wills is not enough.

I've been holding back from playing TES ever since Lorwyn because people were stuffing their decks with Teeg... Tried it at Hadley because it was a different meta.

Bryant Cook
03-13-2008, 01:58 PM
By goldfish I mean, pick up the deck and just play it by yourself. Find the quickest opportunities to win and take them. I heard the blast plan does a nice job on counter/top and force...

Citrus-God
03-13-2008, 02:35 PM
By goldfish I mean, pick up the deck and just play it by yourself. Find the quickest opportunities to win and take them. I heard the blast plan does a nice job on counter/top and force...

Also, since you're learning the deck by goldfishing, here's an obvious thing to do; pretend you're under pressure while goldfishing. It makes you play so much better when that situatution arises. Everybody who's good at TES would agree with that.

Tacosnape
03-13-2008, 02:49 PM
By goldfish I mean, pick up the deck and just play it by yourself. Find the quickest opportunities to win and take them. I heard the blast plan does a nice job on counter/top and force...

What do you do for the Blast Plan in the case that, say, Threshold, plays Island/Go or Island/SDT or Island/Ponder, then follows with Counterbalance the next turn? What tends to happen to me is that I can't go off on turn one because I've got Blasts and/or Chants clogging up my hand, so I attempt to Blast the Counterbalance when they play it on turn two. They either Force and I'm stuck, or they Daze, and I wonder to myself if I actually play Simian Spirit Guide, because he's never in my hand to get around this problem for some reason. (Yet I always have him if they've got the Force.)

From there, I'm Counterbalance locked, and I can't kill it because if I left my enchantment killer in board Counterbalance stops my Burning Wish, and if I brought it in I either can't draw it or they counter it.

Is there a method of dealing with this situation that I need to know about, or am I just having an unlucky run and this doesn't happen as often as it seems to?

Bryant Cook
03-13-2008, 03:02 PM
What do you do for the Blast Plan in the case that, say, Threshold, plays Island/Go or Island/SDT or Island/Ponder, then follows with Counterbalance the next turn? What tends to happen to me is that I can't go off on turn one because I've got Blasts and/or Chants clogging up my hand, so I attempt to Blast the Counterbalance when they play it on turn two. They either Force and I'm stuck, or they Daze, and I wonder to myself if I actually play Simian Spirit Guide, because he's never in my hand to get around this problem for some reason. (Yet I always have him if they've got the Force.) Well, playing around counter/top is very, very difficult. Much more than Island/Ponder, next turn Balance. I'll explain the easier answer first; what you want to do is bait. If they have Balance but no top - Play cards, don't sit there with your hand down your pants. You want that Threshold player to reveal, wait until the time comes to Blast that counterbalance or Burning Wish. They're bound to hit something bad at some point. I personally like baiting with 0cc artifacts or cantrips. With counter/top it's much more difficult, like above you want to bait. However, the goal is to get them to put top on top of their deck. In response to the tap, blast the counterbalance. If you're truely deeply afraid of Force, use Chant. Burning Wish is a much easier answer to counter/top because they always have a 1cc card, they don't always have a 2cc card. As for Daze, try not to walk into it but don't be afraid. Play that Lotus Petal, Mox or hold that SSG.


From there, I'm Counterbalance locked, and I can't kill it because if I left my enchantment killer in board Counterbalance stops my Burning Wish, and if I brought it in I either can't draw it or they counter it.

Is there a method of dealing with this situation that I need to know about, or am I just having an unlucky run and this doesn't happen as often as it seems to? Counterbalance is just a bitch, you have to practice against it a lot to get good against it, also drawing the win conditions is great. Just throw cards into the counterbalance, then ETW or Tendrils.

Nightmare
03-13-2008, 03:17 PM
From the other side of things, I absolutely refuse to reveal cards when Bryant is baiting the Counterbalance. Generally, I know the 0cc artifacts are bait, so unless I'm concerned about how much mana he can generate, I'll never reveal until I can counter a business spell or ritual - something that requires an investment on his part. The only time that ends up biting you is when you have a land on top and could have countered all his accel. Still, you weren't winning that game anyway.

Bryant Cook
03-31-2008, 03:16 PM
I ended up 3-3 at the Virginia Dual Land Draft. I lose two rounds because of Krosan Grip in the sideboard. My sideboard was the same except no blasts and 4 Dark Confidant + 2 Grip. I hated Grip. What do people think should be the other two slots? I was thinking maybe thoughtsieze?

Dilettante
03-31-2008, 03:25 PM
I ended up 3-3 at the Virginia Dual Land Draft. I lose two rounds because of Krosan Grip in the sideboard. My sideboard was the same except no blasts and 4 Dark Confidant + 2 Grip. I hated Grip. What do people think should be the other two slots? I was thinking maybe thoughtsieze?

I've been maining +3 Thoughtseize/+1 Slithermuse -1 Infernal Contract/-1 Cruel Bargain/-2 Ponder, but I run into much... jankier decks out here. Draw 4's make it too vulnerable to the excessive burn/sligh I see here as opposed to Thresh et al.

Thoughtseize sounds like it should be just fine for you. I may revise to do the same with Confidants due to how people sideboard against the deck now. I've been packing extra Empty the Warrens in SB against more disruptive decks, but it's more expected now.

EDIT - Hrm... is it so bad to run Cabal Therapy instead of Thoughtseize perhaps, since one can try to predict when an opponent is trying to pack Stifle, Chant, et al... and flush them all out?

yawg07
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
Actually, Bryant, I have been running a 2x SB Bound/Determined lately and it has been great.
It TOTALLY catches stax/Dstompy/general chalice players off guard.
They feel safe behind their wall of constant 0/1 countermagics, and then you kick em in the balls and drop 3 or 4 petals/chromes/LEDs :laugh:

Also, don't knock that it can remove to a mox to play a brainstorm, then next turn your winning rituals.

@all who wonder: With counterbalance, it's all practice. I don't know how long I have played and played to be able fight down Counter-Top correctly.
And sometimes, yes, you are just screwed and you can't beat it. Shit happens, you'll do better next game.

I recently had a good match against it, I posted it over on the storm forums ...



... had ahuge turn of me playing things and him FoW-ing twice and Daze-ing once.
Well, I looked at what I had and ... okay, he's out of cards and I need to spend some excess.

Cast SSG!

Next turn he puts down counter-top.
After a few hits SSG gets him to 10 and he puts Mongoose down.

I try to play a few things in the meantime (Wishes and such, but he counters em)
Then I look at my hand and decide that it is time.

Rite of Flame? He spins the top and thinks ... "It's good"
Rite of Flame? He thinks about moving the top ... nope, "It's good"
Pyroblast CB? He responds to put top back on top ...
Response, Pyroblast CB? ... okay, CB is destroyed.

He looks and says, "Done?"
Nope! :D Tap two lands and use the excess RR to Tendrils you for 10?

No stifle! WOOOO!

2x Pyroblast/REB is actually the BEST way to handle it, in my opinion, but I know it isn't always easy.
Get them tapped out and blast CB, then blast in response to moving the top.

Dilettante
03-31-2008, 07:15 PM
With the way players are skewing to dance around this deck by countering the tutors and such... is it worth it now to go back to maindecking more win conditions? I.E. Go back to the days of IGGy Pop by just simply sometimes trying to force 2 stacked Tendrils through instead of exposing oneself to a counter for the expected tutor?

EDIT - Orim's Chant is not enough for me. I keep finding Orim's Chant cast in response to my own, CB at 1... but I might run into more UGW builds than most...

Whit3 Ghost
03-31-2008, 07:49 PM
I ended up 3-3 at the Virginia Dual Land Draft. I lose two rounds because of Krosan Grip in the sideboard. My sideboard was the same except no blasts and 4 Dark Confidant + 2 Grip. I hated Grip. What do people think should be the other two slots? I was thinking maybe thoughtsieze?
Serenity.

Arsenal
04-01-2008, 11:48 AM
So... I have everything I need to put this together except the Chants. Is there any cheaper replacements for them? Abeyance? Pact of Negation?

Dilettante
04-01-2008, 11:51 AM
So... I have everything I need to put this together except the Chants. Is there any cheaper replacements for them? Abeyance? Pact of Negation?

Pact of Negation is a horrible card for this deck... because you have to dump it to go off on Infernal Tutor.

Best budget card to run while without chants is probably Xantid Swarm.

Arsenal
04-01-2008, 12:14 PM
With all the blue running around, would I be able to perhaps get away with Pyroblast/REB maindeck in place of Chant? Or is Swarm still the best budget option? Perhaps Defense Grid? I wanted to be creature free (SSG not included).

Dilettante
04-01-2008, 12:18 PM
With all the blue running around, would I be able to perhaps get away with Pyroblast/REB maindeck in place of Chant? Or is Swarm still the best budget option? Perhaps Defense Grid? I wanted to be creature free (SSG not included).

Just remember that having creatures around makes your opponent's removal relevant, but they are forced to pack the removal instead of more hate.

Either can work, though. Don't use Pyro/REB maindeck. Autodead cards for some matchups absolutely suck for your hands.

yawg07
04-01-2008, 12:40 PM
So... I have everything I need to put this together except the Chants. Is there any cheaper replacements for them? Abeyance? Pact of Negation?

There is no cheaper replacement that will do exactly what chant can do.
They are truly necessary. It's the best pro-active combo protection you can have.

Abeyance isn't TERRIBLE, but two is so steep to have to use before you combo.
Xantid gets killed, fast.
REB isn't so hot maindeck, even in a large field of blue.
Pyroblast is leaps and bounds over REB maindeck just because you can cast it on anything, blue or not.

If you ABSOLUTELY CAN'T get Orim's Chant's, and your meta is CRAMMED with blue, Pyroblast would be my suggestion.
With 2 REB, 4 Xantid in the board probably.

Arsenal
04-01-2008, 12:44 PM
Meh, I can technically get Chants, but I wasn't looking to drop $60 for a playset right now; just wanted to use a cheap alternative until I can unload $60 comfortably. If they're that necessary, then I guess I'll just wait to play TES until I get the Chants.

Dilettante
04-01-2008, 03:03 PM
Out of curiosity... do you guys see any other TES players in your area... or even storm combo? The only Storm Combo decks that isn't Belcher I've seen since middle of last year was B.C.'s SI and a Fetchland Tendrils at Hadley. I'm based out of Eastern MA, but haven't been to RI/Wareham yet. I'm wondering how many players of this are actually out there...

NQN
04-01-2008, 03:37 PM
In my Area I was the only player too until I started selling TES because the meta has changed to 50% Chalice Aggro 40% Counterbalance. But actually nobody outa here is playin a deck like tes.

yawg07
04-01-2008, 04:01 PM
Actually yes, there is another player in our meta, he doesn't come on Wednesdays, but he's around on Fridays.
He plays 3 decks, Death and Taxes, Dragon Stompy, and TES

A great D&T and DStompy player, be needs some with TES.
Only because he really hasn't practiced with it.
Our meta has a lot of blue, and it gets tough.
Plus, all the G/B Rock/Eva variants are enough to give combo migraines with their 3x maindeck extirpates and such.

r0ckstAr
04-01-2008, 04:54 PM
Do you think replacing pyroblasts with bound/determined is a good idea ? I'm really having trouble, because il just lose so many games when i combo off and discard pyroblast, and my tutor gets countered ...

My meta is really, really blue heavy (along with some discard), and i see no counterbalance (it doesn't see to much play here in France).

Also, to answer Dilettante : I saw a kobolds combo player three months ago, but that's the only one I can remember. I don't think I have seen any in my meta since summer 2007.

Bryant Cook
04-01-2008, 05:04 PM
I want to play bound/Determined. Except it sucks with Dark Confidant and costs UG. Maybe I'll try it. Altough, to me it seems
abeyance would be better.

EDit: If you don't play to play Chant, play Swarm. Blast is an awful MD slot.

Arsenal
04-01-2008, 05:11 PM
Yeah, I think I'll run Swarm (even if it sucks compared to Chant). $1.49 per Swarm is easier to deal with than $19.99 per Chant.

What about Bound/Determined as a cheap alternative to that Chant slot? Determined shuts down Counterbalance, which Abeyance, Chant, and Swarm cannot.

EDIT: To support Bound/Determined, would +4 ESG, -4 SSG work? Rite of Flame, Petals, and other mana sources would still cover the R needed for Burning Wish, Shattering Spree, etc., but ESG would make Determined easier to cast.

yawg07
04-01-2008, 08:31 PM
I want to play bound/Determined. Except it sucks with Dark Confidant and costs UG. Maybe I'll try it. Altough, to me it seems
abeyance would be better.

EDit: If you don't play to play Chant, play Swarm. Blast is an awful MD slot.

I haven't played Confidant in TES for a while, but I know where you're coming from on that one.
Abeyance IS good, and I was thinking of trying that, too.
But I love how Bound/Determined overrides Chalice and occasionally Counterbalance.

Anymore, my SB might change to 4x Pyroblast 2x Krosan Grip again, but I really think Bound/Determined is good.
My meta has had a shift to include black and artifacts lately, so the 2 REBs have had to come out in place of other things.

I might give ol' Abeyance a shot again, because I still have some Japanese ones.
Also of course because 1W is easier than UG. We'll see, we'll see :D

Jak
04-01-2008, 08:34 PM
EDIT: To support Bound/Determined, would +4 ESG, -4 SSG work? Rite of Flame, Petals, and other mana sources would still cover the R needed for Burning Wish, Shattering Spree, etc., but ESG would make Determined easier to cast.

No. Determined would be SB at best and SSG is just better. EtW, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, and Shattering Spree need the red. It shouldn't be that difficult to get UG.

I do like it a lot and wonder how I never thought of it when I tried it in Solidarity. It is another awesome answer to CB. What would a SB look like? A lot of hate for counters.

4 Determined
4 Pyroblast
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Igg
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract

That may be too much because I would still want to add a Thoughtseize, more Shattering Sprees, etc, but it looks strong.

Dilettante
04-01-2008, 08:42 PM
@Arsenal:
Run SSG... Don't forget that it's a counter-Daze, though it doesn't count as a spell. You don't have anything else that avoids the stack like that. It also *really* helps for correcting your mana to go off on the RoF route.

If you have the whole rest of the list, the only swap you'd need to make is Chant for Swarm... but I'd save up your trade stock and slide the Chants in over time... or wait till the Extended rollover, though I do not expect them to dip (note I said dip instead of drop) any more than to $12 or so.

Jak
04-01-2008, 09:02 PM
@Arsenal:
Run SSG... Don't forget that it's a counter-Daze, though it doesn't count as a spell. You don't have anything else that avoids the stack like that.

ESG does the exact same thing... except produce red which is a must have.

Bryant Cook
04-01-2008, 09:16 PM
Don't run SSG and don't run krosan grip. They aren't worth it.

Jak
04-01-2008, 09:19 PM
Don't run SSG and don't run krosan grip. They aren't worth it.

Off topic, but I just noticed the name change.

Abeyance just seems bad. Its like Chant, but worse because of the 2cc and doesn't stop the big issue here. Counterbalance is what pwns the deck and Determined can stop that if it resolves. I really want to try it, but Abeyance just seems bad.

Arsenal
04-01-2008, 09:38 PM
Meh, this whole discussion really started by me being poor. I'm really liking Determined in that Chant slot, since I can't afford Chants atm. I think I'll play those instead of Swarm and see how it goes. Until I get the Chants needed, I'll use Determined, Swarm, Abeyance (in that order).

BreathWeapon
04-01-2008, 10:27 PM
Does Bound/Determined have cc +2 to circumvent Counterbalance when it's on the stack? I don't see Bound/Determined's advantages over Abeyance/Xantid Swarm/Pryo Blast other wise.

yawg07
04-01-2008, 10:31 PM
Yeah ESG is never a good choice for deck that so loves its red mana.
Also, never forget that with SSG you are making Pyroblast the closest thing to FoW as it can be.

Hell, one time the Ichorid player was on the play and went LED-Breakthrough and started to dredge and I almost had to physically stop him.
Haha, remove SSG ... PYROBLAST o____0 lol good times :laugh:

emidln
04-01-2008, 10:31 PM
Does Bound/Determined have cc +2 to circumvent Counterbalance when it's on the stack? I don't see Bound/Determined's advantages over Abeyance/Xantid Swarm/Pryo Blast other wise.

If Determined resolves then an active counterbalance doesn't matter. If a Xantid Swarm attacks or a Chant resolves, Counterbalance can still be very active. If Abeyance resolves, Counterbalance itself is still active and countering whatever is equal to the top card. It comes down like this: if Determined resolves, Counterbalance is completely worthless. This means they need a counter in hand or a spell with CMC = 2 in their top 3. If Determined didn't resolve, Chant/Abeyance/Swarm/Pyroblast aren't resolving either. Pyroblast is the only thing that's similar in stopping CB, but it makes Top slightly more relevant.

BreathWeapon
04-01-2008, 10:58 PM
If Determined resolves then an active counterbalance doesn't matter. If a Xantid Swarm attacks or a Chant resolves, Counterbalance can still be very active. If Abeyance resolves, Counterbalance itself is still active and countering whatever is equal to the top card. It comes down like this: if Determined resolves, Counterbalance is completely worthless. This means they need a counter in hand or a spell with CMC = 2 in their top 3. If Determined didn't resolve, Chant/Abeyance/Swarm/Pyroblast aren't resolving either. Pyroblast is the only thing that's similar in stopping CB, but it makes Top slightly more relevant.

Right, but I doubt Bound/Determined is a better answer to Counterbalance than a Blast countering Counterbalance or putting Sensei's Divining Top on top of the deck. Bound/Determined is better in LED vs counter scenarios, but if the objective is to SB disruption that addresses Counterbalance, then it's a moot point. On average, Balance/Top is going to hit a 2cc card, so why SB it over Blast?

yawg07
04-01-2008, 11:25 PM
Like I was saying, it is also really good against Chalice. No one sees it coming.
Goblins lays out the chalice for 0 and suddenly it isn't buying them time because you just play Determined and lay your crap to go off.

Also, don't underestimate its power to be imprinted. Having a Chrome Mox that can make blue AND black is better than you think.
That's not as narrow as it looks, trust me.

Dilettante
04-02-2008, 12:02 AM
Right, but I doubt Bound/Determined is a better answer to Counterbalance than a Blast countering Counterbalance or putting Sensei's Divining Top on top of the deck. Bound/Determined is better in LED vs counter scenarios, but if the objective is to SB disruption that addresses Counterbalance, then it's a moot point. On average, Balance/Top is going to hit a 2cc card, so why SB it over Blast?

Why choose one or the other... when you might be better off having both in your SB so that the option is there? Counterbalance is a card thrown off by imbalances. Why not do so with your solutions for it?

Arsenal
04-02-2008, 01:26 AM
Like I was saying, it is also really good against Chalice. No one sees it coming.
Goblins lays out the chalice for 0 and suddenly it isn't buying them time because you just play Determined and lay your crap to go off.

Also, don't underestimate its power to be imprinted. Having a Chrome Mox that can make blue AND black is better than you think.
That's not as narrow as it looks, trust me.

This is true. CotV is running rampant in all sorts of decks (Stompy variants) and in sideboards. Being able to combo through a CotV @ 0 or CotV @ 1 is helpful. Chant, Swarm, and Abeyance do nothing to address this. The best option is to (a.) combo around the CotV, or (b.) tutor/Wish up an answer for CotV, then proceed to combo... maybe.

Meh, Determined looks interesting enough to warrant serious testing, no?

BreathWeapon
04-02-2008, 11:14 AM
Chalice of the Void isn't an argument for Bound/Determined tho', most of the decks using Chalice of the Void in the SB are 2-x regardless, because the first game belongs to TES and the third game TES is on the play. I also disagree that Orim's Chant doesn't address Chalice of the Void, Time Walking yourself against disruption is half the reason to run Orim's Chant in the first place. It's not either/or, but Bound/Determined shouldn't be used in favor of Blasts when Counterbalance is the card the deck has to address.

As an aside, are people MDing/SBing the full set of Empty the Warrens against Counterbalance? I find the best solution to Counterbalance is to be able to either resolve two Tendrils of Agony, one Empty the Warrens or a Goblin Charbelcher from hand. If the deck is too reliant on LED->Tutor->IGG/D7->Win condition, it chokes when Counterbalance resolves. I SB them in and out against control based on whether or not it's focused on Counterbalance or Pernicious Deed to good effect

Media314r8
04-02-2008, 11:44 AM
My buddy plays the hell out of some TES, and from over 9000 games against him, determined is shit against CB. The best way to deal with it is probably REB or a good EtW before they get countertop online.

"But how to you reslove REB if they have countertop Media?" Simple, play something they want to counter like rite, chant, or rit (assuming they dont have a CMC 1 in the top 3) and they will likely tap top, this is when you REB the CB, with top's draw ability on the stack. In my experience, they usually float CMC2 and land in the top 3, as lands counter all your artifact mana, and CMC 2 spells counter all your tutors. (while they beat with 1 goyf or a couple of geese)

Also, IMO, bob is hot in TES (MB if you've got brass balls, otherwise SB after they side out removal). turn one or two bob will give you the gas you need to combo off turn 2-4 with backup EtW. (the 'making their removal relevant' argument against bob is not valid for those of you running swarms.)

My $.02

Also, if you broke A$$ N!@s cant afford chant, just wait until the extended rotation, they'll probably drop $5-$10.

Arsenal
04-03-2008, 11:52 AM
Shadowmoor's Vexing Shusher out of the SB to absolutely rape Counterbalance?

Dilettante
04-03-2008, 11:58 AM
Shadowmoor's Vexing Shusher out of the SB to absolutely rape Counterbalance?

It's only for one spell, but yeah... it dances around Chalice also. I like it, don't love it, but it can work for playing around certain things... Unlike Bound/Determined, Chalice/Counterbalance at 2 does not stop it... I guess in just about any matchup with Counterbalance or Chalice at 2, you can generally expect to have enough breathing room to cast it and go off...

Hrm, I misread it... I thought it took 2 mana to activate :) Forgot about Hybrid mana. Better than I thought... It also allows you to make your pyroblast uncounterable...

yawg07
04-03-2008, 12:04 PM
Interesting card, I'd really hate putting creatures back into the board of this deck, but he ain't bad haha.
Basically he's gonna say "Pay an extra :rg: and Pyroblast is uncounterable."

Arsenal
04-03-2008, 12:09 PM
It allows you to ramp up, then go all in knowing for sure that you'll combo, unless your opponent is playing a split second creature removal card...

EDIT: Or it'll say, "Pay RW. Orim's Chant is uncounterable and your opponent cannot play spells this turn." That's pretty nice.

matelml
04-03-2008, 04:51 PM
It allows you to ramp up, then go all in knowing for sure that you'll combo, unless your opponent is playing a split second creature removal card...

EDIT: Or it'll say, "Pay RW. Orim's Chant is uncounterable and your opponent cannot play spells this turn." That's pretty nice.

He doesn't need any help to protect: you just combo until your opponent wants to counter something, then you just pay 1 and protect it. It doesn't help against Stifle though. At first sight he is too mana hungry for the TES Sb, but he'll be good in some other deck.

Arsenal
04-03-2008, 05:12 PM
Is mana really any issue in this deck? I was always under the impression that half this deck is just raw mana sources, with 16 cards producing multiple mana. TES should have plenty of fuel to add an additional R or RR when comboing out to protect/force through key spells.

Bryant Cook
04-03-2008, 06:35 PM
I really, really like this guy. He may be an automatic 4x in the SB.

BreathWeapon
04-04-2008, 12:49 AM
A 2cc uncounterable Xantid Swarm that can resolve spells thru' Counterbalance? It's an automatic 4x in the SB, and no one is ever going to SB out their creature removal against TES game 2.

I can't even believe how insane this card is.

Edit: It even gives the deck enough creatures to support Cabal Therapy flashback for the IGG chain instead of hard casting Simian Spirit Guide or sacrificing Tinder Wall.

Serbitar
04-04-2008, 06:02 AM
So what about this new gem:

Beseech the Queen (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/latest/dl31_l0isup.jpg)

Intriguing at first sight, a little less great when thinking about it. I mean, how often are you going to have more than 2 land out? So it won't fetch a win condition/enabler (4cc). With BBB it's also quite hard to cast and clunky without a ritual (compare Draw4) and the other possible costs are just not worth it... So, basically it would have to be a setup spell to fetch LED or Wish/Infernal. Testing pending, but I doubt it will make it.

kicks_422
04-04-2008, 08:09 AM
Vexing Shusher:

Is the ability to work through a Counterbalance for an additional R for every spell better than countering/destroying CB?

Beseech the Queen:

As the deck runs a really low land count (sometimes it wins even with no lands in play), this becomes a black-mana draining LED fetcher. I don't think it would be too good here. Maybe in FT it could make the cut, but not in TES.

Dilettante
04-04-2008, 08:27 AM
I doubt Beseech the Queen would make the cut... It's a little slow. It works better in a daisy chain of spells that draws more efficiently (i.e. emphasizes on draw as its method for storming). TES is a precise tutor chain that relies on card 'quality' than quantity instead. It works better for Fetchland, but not the other stormers out there... unless they print a lower CMC kill condition...

Arsenal
04-04-2008, 10:04 AM
kicks -

You would primarily be using Susher's ability on the turn you're planning on going off; whether the Counterbalance is destroyed or is just made unuseable, it doesn't matter because your opponent should be dying that turn anyway. It's sorta a moot point imo.

emidln
04-04-2008, 10:10 AM
Almost any storm deck will run Grim Tutor before Beseech the Queen. Given that TES doesn't play Grim Tutor, I doubt it'll play Beseech the Queen.

kicks_422
04-04-2008, 10:24 AM
kicks -

You would primarily be using Susher's ability on the turn you're planning on going off; whether the Counterbalance is destroyed or is just made unuseable, it doesn't matter because your opponent should be dying that turn anyway. It's sorta a moot point imo.

Of course you would, though being able to protect set-up Wishes and Tutors are also hot as well. I'm just wondering if Pyroblasts' permanent solution to CB (though it can get countered, of course) is readily replaced by an uncounterable but mana-intensive and removable source of protection.

The need for lots of red mana might be a concern though... Seething Songs back in? :tongue: I guess in a storm turn, you only really need to Shush around 2-3 spells.

Dilettante
04-04-2008, 10:34 AM
Of course you would, though being able to protect set-up Wishes and Tutors are also hot as well. I'm just wondering if Pyroblasts' permanent solution to CB (though it can get countered, of course) is readily replaced by an uncounterable but mana-intensive and removable source of protection.

The need for lots of red mana might be a concern though... Seething Songs back in? :tongue: I guess in a storm turn, you only really need to Shush around 2-3 spells.

On your jesting aside... the issue with Seething Song is... You still need 3 black or some blue on top if you want to go off on Tendrils...

I think Pyroblast and Husher in tandem would make for a good sideboard... but do you have the slots to do so? I'm pretty tempted to cut Thoughtseize in favor of... Therapy in sideboard now. Get *all* their orim's chants out of their hand...

Possible new sideboard:
4x Vexing Husher
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Cleanfall
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Pyroclasm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast

Jak
04-04-2008, 10:41 AM
Possible new sideboard:
4x Vexing Husher
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Cleanfall
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Pyroclasm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast

I plan on running this

4 Shusher
4 Pyroblast
1 Igg
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 DR
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility

That seems very strong against ANYTHING. I doubt that I will change the MD for this card because you shouldn't need to. If they have CB out but no top, it should be easy to win. It does make me want to run Determined more though, but UGR to go off smoothly would be hard to get.

Dilettante
04-04-2008, 10:43 AM
I plan on running this

4 Shusher
4 Pyroblast
1 Igg
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 DR
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility

That seems very strong against ANYTHING. I doubt that I will change the MD for this card because you shouldn't need to. If they have CB out but no top, it should be easy to win. It does make me want to run Determined more though, but UGR to go off smoothly would be hard to get.

I'm just wary of 4x Pyroblast because of fun fun happy Extirpate.

Bryant Cook
04-04-2008, 10:53 AM
Beseech the Queen looks awful, I won't play it.

As for the SB, why is everyone cutting the Infernal Contract? It's one of my most wished for cards. I currently have six sideboard slots, I may cut the Thoughtseize or Tranquility for the 3rd blast. More than likely the Tranquility, I haven't wished for it in ages. Honestly, I'm starting to wonder why it's in the board. We do win before enchantress after all.

Also, Cabal Therapy? C'mon people, that's an awful idea. It's not better than 'Seize here. Even with Shusher. We don't play even close to the amount of creatures you need for Therapy. Why hardcast SSG, investing 4 mana into a discard spell.

Dilettante
04-04-2008, 11:02 AM
Also, Cabal Therapy? C'mon people, that's an awful idea. It's not better than 'Seize here. Even with Shusher. We don't play even close to the amount of creatures you need for Therapy. Why hardcast SSG, investing 4 mana into a discard spell.

I'm personally not a fan of the Draw 4's in my meta because people can too easily spike-burn if I can't go off immediately with the combo. I probably see a lot more fireblasts out of nowhere than most would... A lot more 'jank' and less Threshold in general. I don't play against Nightmare and Co. all the time =P I run into a few people who play Thresh... but just as many that run Burn. If I played in a tournament outside of my zone, then yes. I'd probably swap Tranq/Cleanfall for a Draw 4.

Yeah, I haven't used Tranquility/Cleanfall in a long time... with Shusher dancing around the big enchantment.

As for Therapy... I can usually predict what's coming... I wasn't intending to use the Flashback... only the effect that it forces them to pitch all cards of the name as an advantage over Thoughtseize... and usually for Orim's Chant if I guess it. Thoughtseize does not get rid of multiple Orim's Chants...

BreathWeapon
04-04-2008, 01:41 PM
Beseech the Queen looks awful, I won't play it.

As for the SB, why is everyone cutting the Infernal Contract? It's one of my most wished for cards. I currently have six sideboard slots, I may cut the Thoughtseize or Tranquility for the 3rd blast. More than likely the Tranquility, I haven't wished for it in ages. Honestly, I'm starting to wonder why it's in the board. We do win before enchantress after all.

Also, Cabal Therapy? C'mon people, that's an awful idea. It's not better than 'Seize here. Even with Shusher. We don't play even close to the amount of creatures you need for Therapy. Why hardcast SSG, investing 4 mana into a discard spell.

The difference between Thought Seize and Cabal Therapy is negligible, both of them deal with the card(s) preventing TES from going off, but Cabal Therapy can generate card advantage. Being able to discard multiple Counterspells, Spell Snares and Stifles is important, because it turns Burning Wish -> Discard from being mana inefficient disruption into bait. Force of Will is now +1 card advantage, Counterspell is now UUUU, Spellsnare is now -U mana for them and +B mana for you and Stifle is no longer a threat.

I believe Cabal Therapy > Thought Seize, and if you look at the original Burning Long, it used Cabal Therapy in its SB. Flashback is just the icing on the cake, turning SSGs, Tinder Walls, Goblin Tokens and Dark Confidants into disruption or setting up the Ill Gotten Gains chain when Force of Will is in the discard pile. It's not something you specifically aim for, but it'll accidentally save your ass.

Cabal Therapy is certainly more skill intensive than Thought Seize, but it's definitely an improvement to the control match up.

Edit: Just because Draw 4's are bad against Slight isn't a reason to cut them from the SB, if your life total is in the red zone, just wish for something else. Tranquility/Cleanfall has always sucked, I never understood why people cut Hull Breach for it in the first place.

Bryant Cook
04-04-2008, 01:47 PM
The difference between Thought Seize and Cabal Therapy is negligible, both of them deal with the card(s) preventing TES from going off, but Cabal Therapy can generate card advantage. Being able to discard multiple Counterspells, Spell Snares and Stifles is important, because it turns Burning Wish -> Discard from being mana inefficient disruption into bait. Force of Will is now +1 card advantage, Counterspell is now UUUU, Spellsnare is now -U mana for them and +B mana for you and Stifle is no longer a threat.

I believe Cabal Therapy > Thought Seize, and if you look at the original Burning Long, it used Cabal Therapy in its SB. Flashback is just the icing on the cake, turning SSGs, Tinder Walls, Goblin Tokens and Dark Confidants into disruption or setting up the Ill Gotten Gains chain when Force of Will is in the discard pile. It's not something you specifically aim for, but it'll accidentally save your ass.

Cabal Therapy is certainly more skill intensive than Thought Seize, but it's definitely an improvement to the control match up.

Edit: Just because Draw 4's are bad against Slight isn't a reason to cut them from the SB, if your life total is in the red zone, just wish for something else. Tranquility/Cleanfall has always sucked, I never understood why people cut Hull Breach for it in the first place.

Or you could wiff and they'll still have 2-3 pieces of disruption.

BreathWeapon
04-04-2008, 02:10 PM
Or you could wiff and they'll still have 2-3 pieces of disruption.

Sure, but let's be honest, Thought Seize isn't fast enough to deal with Counterbalance, Meddling Mage and Gaddok Teeg, which leaves Force of Will, Counterspell and Stifle as its main targets. If the opponent has multiple and/or differentiated counters, then Thought Seize would have been just as worthless as Cabal Therapy, because now your only choice is Orim's Chant(s). Worst case scenario, you'll miss Force of Will for Counterspell or vice versa, but in those instances Burning Wish should have tutored for a Draw 4 instead.

It's about proper hand reading, if you can't put the opponent on Force of Will, Counterspell, Spellsnare or Stifle based on the number of cards in hand, mana untapped etc. then either a threat or Thought Seize are going to be superior choices. But just the threat of Cabal Therapy causes people to counter Burning Wish, Thought Seize doesn't have the same effect.

You can also just SB both of them if your uncomfortable with your Cabal Therapy skills.

Mental
04-04-2008, 02:17 PM
The difference between Thought Seize and Cabal Therapy is negligible, both of them deal with the card(s) preventing TES from going off, but Cabal Therapy can generate card advantage. Being able to discard multiple Counterspells, Spell Snares and Stifles is important, because it turns Burning Wish -> Discard from being mana inefficient disruption into bait. Force of Will is now +1 card advantage, Counterspell is now UUUU, Spellsnare is now -U mana for them and +B mana for you and Stifle is no longer a threat.

I believe Cabal Therapy > Thought Seize, and if you look at the original Burning Long, it used Cabal Therapy in its SB. Flashback is just the icing on the cake, turning SSGs, Tinder Walls, Goblin Tokens and Dark Confidants into disruption or setting up the Ill Gotten Gains chain when Force of Will is in the discard pile. It's not something you specifically aim for, but it'll accidentally save your ass.

Cabal Therapy is certainly more skill intensive than Thought Seize, but it's definitely an improvement to the control match up.

Edit: Just because Draw 4's are bad against Slight isn't a reason to cut them from the SB, if your life total is in the red zone, just wish for something else. Tranquility/Cleanfall has always sucked, I never understood why people cut Hull Breach for it in the first place.

Remember, when Burning Long was around, Thoughtseize didn't exist. Cabal Therapy is generally worse than seize because no one can hand read THAT well. Let's say, for instance, an opponent has 1 Island untapped. Snare or Stifle? Or 2 Islands. Counterspell? FoW? You say it's all about hand reading, and yeah, that helps. But not enough to make this better than a definite hit.

BreathWeapon
04-04-2008, 02:35 PM
Remember, when Burning Long was around, Thoughtseize didn't exist. Cabal Therapy is generally worse than seize because no one can hand read THAT well. Let's say, for instance, an opponent has 1 Island untapped. Snare or Stifle? Or 2 Islands. Counterspell? FoW? You say it's all about hand reading, and yeah, that helps. But not enough to make this better than a definite hit.

It was used for double Force of Will and Mana Drain scenarios, if people wanted guaranteed discard, then -1 MD Duress for + 1 MD Xantid Swarm would have been the standard.

But like I said, just run both. Thoughtseize is still useful if the deck uses Chrome Mox to wish for it before the opponent hits UU for Counterbalance, and Cabal Therapy is still useful if the deck uses it as a pseudo Orim's Chant.

Hitting multiple spells, turning superflous resources into disruption and protecting the IGG chain is worth 1 SB slot.

Dilettante
04-04-2008, 02:40 PM
When I play this deck, I often... dance around the counterspells. It's Stifle, Abeyance, and Orim's Chant that really worry me. I see no shortage of the first maindecked... due to Stiflenought finding more and more play... Your own Orim's Chant is a litmus test, but... a spell to protect your litmus test can be helpful in certain matchups... and by the time you can Burning Wish for Therapy, you're at a stage of a game where your opponent is likely to be holding a suckerpunch... or several. Of course, everyone has their own playstyle... and personal meta to cope with.

yawg07
04-05-2008, 05:07 PM
New Shadowmoor common!

Manamorphose :1::rg:
Instant
Add 2 mana of any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.


Wow, this card seems ... well, really good! :eek:

BreathWeapon
04-05-2008, 05:40 PM
New Shadowmoor common!

Manamorphose :1::rg:
Instant
Add 2 mana of any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.


Wow, this card seems ... well, really good! :eek:

It's good in Belcher for certain, but I don't know whether or not it's betters than Simian Spirit Guide here. Storm, Draw and Mana Fixing all bare testing tho', it's bound to find a niche some where.

yawg07
04-05-2008, 05:44 PM
Yeah it should be tested.
Actually yeah in Belcher it is auto-include and replaces Wild Cantor. It has to be.
But in TES we have a few slots to move around ...

Draw4s - NO
Ponder - Maybe
Cabal Rit - Maybe

I'd test em in place of either of those two first.

Sanguine Voyeur
04-05-2008, 05:54 PM
Ponder - MaybeI don't think Ponder should be cut, it's too essential as a turn one set up spell. However, I could be mistaken, I'm not a TESman.

yurivish
04-05-2008, 06:22 PM
I've got a question for people more familiar with the deck than I am.

In the games I've played, I've sometimes wished that a Brainstorm be a Ponder, purely for the shuffling effect. Usually, Brainstorm's way better, but we have almost no ways to shuffle the deck, so often I'm stuck placing my hopes on a Brainstorm, then drawing the two dead cards I put back over the next turns. Am I just playing wrong by keeping hands I shouldn't, or should the 4/2 split be rethought?

BreathWeapon
04-05-2008, 06:30 PM
Yeah it should be tested.
Actually yeah in Belcher it is auto-include and replaces Wild Cantor. It has to be.
But in TES we have a few slots to move around ...

Draw4s - NO
Ponder - Maybe
Cabal Rit - Maybe

I'd test em in place of either of those two first.

Using Manamorphosis to support Draw 4s could be huge, with Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual that's a potential 12 BB(B) sources. Just being a Right of Flame compatible mana fixer has serious implications, while BB supports Draw 4s, UU supports Diminishing Returns as well.

If this card opens the door to double colored threats ...

Edit: I run 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder since the Draw 4s and Cabal Rituals are inconsistent, but there are going to be times when Brainstorm is going to hit 3 bricks and lose the game. Just be certain to use Ponder and Infernal Tutor to shuffle the deck when possible.

yawg07
04-07-2008, 03:41 PM
5-0-1 Tourney Report

15 people, 4 rounds, TES beatdown w00t


The List:

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual

4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Infernal Contract

4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish

4x Orim's Chant

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns

1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass


The Sideboard:

4x Pyroblast
2x Bound/Determined
1x Pyroclasm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Hull breach
1x Infernal Contract
1x Duress
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns


How it went down:


ROUND 1

Opponent: Dragon Stompy


Game 1:

Well my opening hand was alright, can't quite remember it, but LED and 2 Petals with a tutor is good.
But, of course, he won the die roll and threw down a mountain and a Chalice for 0 :(

Ouch, my balls.

Okay okay, I drop City and play Brainstorm, looking for some other fast mana. I see some but I can't get free mana down this turn.
Oh well, I put my two back and pass. He draws and lays City of Traitors and Blood Moon.

DAMN. No more black mana unless I can destroy Chalice.

Well I knew I had no B.Wish in the top two, so I had to wait it out.
Unfortunately, Gathans and Dragon burnt me to a crisp before I could get the wish, and OF COURSE, it was the next card.


Game 2: No SB change

I know he brings in Pyroclasms and maybe Pyrokinesis, but goblins can still work because he has no draw engine.
My opening grip wasn't terrible ...

LED
Empty the Warrens
Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
SSG
Rite of Flame
City of Brass

Well, City to D.Rit, SSG to RoF, Petal, LED, Warrens and burn for 1. 10 Guys, here we go.
He sighs and says, "No clasm" Takes his turn and Chalices at 0
I draw nothing relevant and swing for ten.
He draws again and almost scoops, but plays SSG to block with.
Same turn for me, but he blocks one. He is at 1 now, and doesn't draw an answer. Game three.


Game 3: No SB Change

Well, my opening grip was a first turn 6 storm Diminishing Returns with BBU floating, so I kept it.
He goes first ... NO 3Sphere or Chalice YES!!! Just Blood Moon which is okay because I need to RoF anyhow.
Well I do what I said, D.Returns as 6th spell and remove my ten. The FIRST THREE cards I see are LED, Petal, Infernal ... done and done, folks.




ROUND 2

Opponent: U/W Standstill Variant


Game 1:

First turn win hand.
Opening hand was something like ...

LED
Petal
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Infernal Contract
Chrome Mox
Gemstone Mine

Sure, why not?

At this point I don't know what he's playing, but I start up anyhow, because I won the die roll and my hand is dumb.
Gem Mine, Ritual, Contract ... Draw Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, LED
Wow.

Petal to Ritual, Petal, Chrome imprinting Brainstorm, LED, LED, Infernal and sac LEDs and locate Tendrils. Game.

Between the games I catch a glimpse of what looked like a standstill and an StP and I get suspicious, so the Pyros can come in.



Game 2: SB - Out: 2x Ponder, 2x Cabal Ritual - In: 4x Pyroblast

Wow, total crap hand. Mulligan into a very promising hand that I can't quite remember.
He lays and Island and passes. I was playing against BLUE and what I did last game happened? Geez lol

Ah well, I do my thing on my turn with petals, rituals, a contract, and rounding out with and 8th Spell Diminishing Returns with BBB floating ...

... it resolves WOOOO!!!

Remove my ten and draw 7. Wow. Again, wow.

Gemstone Mine
Petal
Orim's Chant
LED
Dark Ritual
Infernal Tutor
City of Brass

Petal to Chant. FoWs it ... I go for the tutor and it resolves for the game :D
Wow, the guy had one collective turn between the two games, I actually felt bad, but that's what this deck can do.




ROUND 3

Opponent: B/G Rock


Game 1:

Can't remember too much about this game, but my opening hand had it all, land mana and tutors.
He opens with Thoughtseize on my LED. Ugh okay, no tutoring just yet.
I don't do much on my next turn and rips duress and thoughtseize at me. Bye tutors.
He is sitting with Volrath's Stronghold and a Bayou, and I'm not seeing goyfs or a second black for him to sinkhole/hymn me, so I'm lucky here.
Draw an Infernal Contract and play it, draw good cards and proceed to go off and I miscount ... well sort of.
For some reason, I thought he played 2x Duress and 1x Thoughtseize ... nope haha, I had enough to tendrils him for 16, but I thought him to be at 18.
OH WELL, I fetch up LED, LED, Infernal with my Ill-counted Ill-Gotten Gains and prepare to win next turn.
He duresses Tutor of course ... ugh ... I rip Burning Wish like a topdecking champ and win.


Game 2: No SB Change

Wow okay, my opening hand say I win the game. Oh look! Duress! haha oh well.
I draw a decent card, but still not a game win one. Goes to him and then he hymns me. Ouch I lose 2 mana spells (LED and RoF)
I draw another Infernal to replace my duressed one, but still am at nothingsville.
He follows up with ANOTHER Hymn ... fuck, lol Well, I'm left with a stripped hand, but still have a gem or two :D
I draw Infernal Contract, time to come back from discard hell! I draw LED, Petal, Chrome, and Burning Wish o_0
Haha, I go and do my thing and B.Wish for IGG, do that thing and he responds to IGG with "Extirpate infernal tutor!"
I look up at him with terror and he tosses an Engineered Plague and a Deed onto my side of the table and laughs, we shake hands and we're done.



ROUND 4

Opponent: W/g Weenie

Yeah I know, a bye for me, but we're both friends and the chinese food just arrived, so we draw.
No biggie :D



Okay! TOP FOUR!!!



ROUND 1

Opponent: Mono Red Sligh


Game 1:

He drops Lavamancer and I see 12 gobs in my hand.
I draw a card and now see 14 gobs in my hand. I do it.
He doesn't wipe the board I win efficiently.


Game 2: No SB Change

I mull to 6, okay good hand I'll keep.
I know he boarded in REBs to stop D.Returns, he's done it to me before haha, so I keep on my toes.
Luckily my hand is pretty good and I don't need it.
He played some guys and I wait until I'm comfortable to go off, turn 3 is perfect.


Now its the finals, my opponent and I have things we want in the shop and if we split, both of us are happy.
SO, we do that, but play games anyhow.


Opponent: Ichorid/Dredge


Game 1:

He does stuff on the first turn and prepares for the win on turn two.
I have the nuts hand and blow him out turn one.

Game 2: SB out 2x Ponder 2x C.Rit - SB in 4x Pyroblast

He goes nuts and blows me out on turn one, ugh I had Pyro, but no SSG.


Game 3: No SB Change

I hold position and play Tarnished Citadel and pass.
He LED Breakthroughs and I gladly take my 3 to Pyroblast it, his graveyard position is STILL nuts though.
I draw LED #2 and lay my second land to play the burning wish and I win! :D
TAKE THAT FUCKING UNDISCOVERED PARADISE!!!!!!

Benie Bederios
04-07-2008, 07:08 PM
ROUND 2[/u]

Opponent: U/W Standstill Variant


Game 1:

First turn win hand.
Opening hand was something like ...

LED
Petal
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Infernal Contract
Chrome Mox
Gemstone Mine

Sure, why not?

At this point I don't know what he's playing, but I start up anyhow, because I won the die roll and my hand is dumb.
Gem Mine, Ritual, Contract ... Draw Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, LED
Wow.

Petal to Ritual, Petal, Chrome imprinting Brainstorm, LED, LED, Infernal and sac LEDs and locate Tendrils. Game.



Game 2: SB - Out: 2x Ponder, 2x Cabal Ritual - In: 4x Pyroblast

Wow, total crap hand. Mulligan into a very promising hand that I can't quite remember.
He lays and Island and passes. I was playing against BLUE and what I did last game happened? Geez lol

Ah well, I do my thing on my turn with petals, rituals, a contract, and rounding out with and 8th Spell Diminishing Returns with BBB floating ...

... it resolves WOOOO!!!

Remove my ten and draw 7. Wow. Again, wow.

Gemstone Mine
Petal
Orim's Chant
LED
Dark Ritual
Infernal Tutor
City of Brass

Petal to Chant. FoWs it ... I go for the tutor and it resolves for the game :D
Wow, the guy had one collective turn between the two games, I actually felt bad, but that's what this deck can do.


How did you know that you had to board in Pyroblast if you won first turn?

BB

yawg07
04-07-2008, 11:20 PM
Well I saw him shuffling up and caught a glimpse of a standstill and what looked like a swords to plowshares :laugh:
Sorry, I guess I forgot to mention that, I haven't really written a report before.

Benie Bederios
04-08-2008, 05:06 AM
Well I saw him shuffling up and caught a glimpse of a standstill and what looked like a swords to plowshares
Sorry, I guess I forgot to mention that, I haven't really written a report before.



Game 2: SB - Out: 2x Ponder, 2x Cabal Ritual - In: 4x Pyroblast

Wow, total crap hand. Mulligan into a very promising hand that I can't quite remember.
He lays and Island and passes. I was playing against BLUE and what I did last game happened? Geez lol
Ah well, I do my thing on my turn with petals, rituals, a contract, and rounding out with and 8th Spell Diminishing Returns with BBB floating ...


hmmm, :eyebrow:

But anyway nice result. Pity you didn't had th change to test Bound/Determined. I always found it a weak slot, but were to lazy to test it myself.

Is Tarnished Citadel a replacement, due to money are availibility or is it serious suggestion. The 3 damage is quite alot, but bouncing a land isn't that swell either. Maybe the 1/1 split works.

BB

BreathWeapon
04-08-2008, 09:56 AM
I've been using 2 Tarnished Citadels for awhile, and I don't think I've lost a game to the damage ever, 2 Undiscovered Paradise blows.

yawg07
04-08-2008, 12:08 PM
Benie is catching me up in my dramatic additions lol it was how I felt at the time.
I just wanted to get the point across that you can beat an opponent without knowing what they are playing.

And money issues? lol Citadel is like .25 and Paradise is like $2 at most, besides ...
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/yawg07/JPN%20Collection/JPNTESLands3.jpg


But yeah i like the 1/1 split. Undiscovered Paradise is so bad it makes me cry.
But sometimes I like not taking a bolt to get a mana, so I keep one in.

Benie Bederios
04-08-2008, 07:42 PM
Hehe, I'm sorry. Didn't meant to offend you or something, I just looked at it and lol'd.

Well, I didn't knew the prices( got mine Paradises a long time ago) but maybe you didn't own the complete deck, when you went to the tournament and couldn't find a Paradise or something.

Going to two Citadels seems to much. Especially if your build contains 2 Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain. Today I played a killed a guy, because I could counter his Infernal Tutor when he was down to 5 due to Infernal Contract and had 5 mana in pool. And I played Solidarity so I didn't lay beats on him.

BB

Bryant Cook
04-09-2008, 03:24 PM
Has anyone tested with Shusher? He's incredible. He may be what turns this deck around. He single handily crushed the Threshold testing. Uncounterable Orim's Chant generally means game over.


As for the manabase, maybe I'll give 1/1 another shot.

Arsenal
04-09-2008, 03:30 PM
Where did you fit him in? Was he exclusively used maindeck, or used primarily as SB surprise after opponent sides out all of his spot removal?

BreathWeapon
04-09-2008, 03:37 PM
Yeah, he's been pretty amazing, control has to keep in all of its spot and mass removal just to be able to deal with his uncounterable ass. BEB is going to be insanely popular in Threshold and Landstill boards very soon, IMO.

Bryant Cook
04-09-2008, 04:06 PM
Where did you fit him in? Was he exclusively used maindeck, or used primarily as SB surprise after opponent sides out all of his spot removal?

He was in the sideboard along with blasts.

surly
04-13-2008, 10:18 AM
I haven't played TES for about a half year, but I have a question about the Chant/Swarm etc MD slot and would be pleased if someone could answer it to me... my meta is nearly free of FoW, Stifle, Daze, CounterTop etc, so my question is if those 4 slots for chant are realy needed? I mean there are only 2 guys playing Counters (1 Landstill, 1 Faerie Stompy) so I doubt the Swarm would be much useful because the main part of my meta is Gobbs, Dragon Stompy, Pikula, Belcher, Ravager and some kiddies playing random Aggro.dec. Would you still advocate the 4 Chants (cause they can be also used to "timewalk" an opp in the early turns) or run something else like more Ponder/Cabal Ritual for more constant draws instead?

I also played Bob a while ago and it performed quite well, cause its never a dead card and simply steamrolls the opp with CA if unanswered. The main prob with him is that he gets killed the turn before he gets relevant, so often its a 2 for 1 trade for them (especially against gobbs)

So what do you think, Bob, Chant or something else?

BreathWeapon
04-13-2008, 11:20 AM
I'd consider either Thought Seize or Tinder Wall in that case, but I'd rather just use Belcher or SI in that meta. TES is built to deal with aggro-control and control, where Belcher or SI are built to straight up goldfish, and if no one is going to put up a fight, you may as well treat them as if they aren't even there.

GreenOne
04-13-2008, 04:19 PM
You can play discard, Tinder wall or some sort of bounce to help vs aggro.
But anyway, I'd play the Chants anyway cause they're good in the 3 worst matchups of your meta: the 2 FoW decks and Belcher. You really don't need help vs aggro.
Otherwise you could play more draw4s and help the landstill and discard matchups.

Mental
04-13-2008, 09:12 PM
Yeah, Shusher may make me play this deck again. Against slowish Thresh builds, you can generally sit on your ass until turn 6 or 7, drop Shusher, and combo out through any amount of disruption.

Giles
04-14-2008, 05:38 AM
Chrome Mox. I hardly ever imprint something on it and in multiples they suck.

Is it nessary, at all?

Discuss.