[Deck] The Dreaded Fish [Archive]

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thefreakaccident

12-28-2007, 10:02 PM

This thread is going to discuss a cousin of the current counter-top-dreadnought.decs....

Index:

I. The List
II. Playstyle and philosophy/history
III. card choices/explanations
IV. MU analyses

I.

THE LIST:

lands//18
4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
1 island
1 plains
1 academy ruins

creatures//16
4 meddling mage
4 dark confidant
4 epochrisite
4 phyrexian dreadnought

spells//26
4 force of will
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 vision charm
3 aether vial
3 enlightened tutor

sidebord//
3 engineered plague
3 engineered explosives
3 arcane laboratory
3 pithing needle
3 planar void

II.

History/philosophy:

This deck for me, started off with a build of UG threshold. I thought of including the counterbalance top engine, then added trinket mage to fetch for some goodies, then one thing led to another until it was a dreadnought deck with alt. win in threshed critters and tarmogoyfs.

I then decided that the counterbalance engine was too slow and mana intensive for an aggro-control deck that also had mana denial tempo in mind. So I dropped the tops and the CBs. This left me with some odd cards that were still too slow, mainly the mage. This led me to splash white, for the tutor.

I was testing with that UGW list for a little while, when I read that article on the theoretical UWB build, which seemed really good. I adopted that deck in a heartbeat and then decided that I didn't like some things in that build, especially for my meta.

With my meta focused on control, and less on aggro and combo, duress is less than happy in the deck; as they will just cast a mass draw spell next turn and remove the dreadnought then, this was an issue. Meddling mage is good at making sure topdecks aren't an issue, especially if they are playing optimal cards (swords, deed, smother, vindicate).

Speed and resiliancy, this deck is based off of those two ideas. Trying to keep game against everything while still being able to fight off the top tear. I have spent a lot of time on this deck, and it has changed a lot over time.

III.

Card Choices:

Academy ruins: This little puppy keeps this deck on its' feet, allowing us to keep dreadnoughts coming and keep the pressure on in the late game (thoughtseize hitting epochrisites/noughts).

Dark Confidant: a 2/1 beater for 2 isn't all that great, but he is a draw engine. The average mana cost is 1.233, so he will never be all that painful, even with two on the board at once. I play four, because he keeps us afloat against board control and the first one will never live past the turn.

Meddling Mage: a 2/2 beater for 2 is ok, but his effect on the game state can be devastating for an unsuspecting opponent. A mage on swords against UGW thresh usually gets rid of their only out to the dreadnought staring them in the face. He is also very good against LFTL based decks and of coarse combo; he can win games by himself sometimes.

Epochrisite: He is a questionable slot that needs to addressed. He is essentially a 2 mana 4/4 without a half life like grunt does. Grunt lives for a little while, but this guy stays. Not only does he not have a draw back, but the only way to be rid of him is through swords or removal and stifle. He is a real sore for anything not running white. If they waste a swords on him though, I am happy my dreadnought will live.

Phyrexian Dreadnought: The namesake of the deck. He is by far the largest creature on board all of the time, and can rape goyfs. Sometimes people will double block two goyfs to this guy and still not kill him, so his size is quite irritating for opponents. He can be tutored for turn one and be played turn 2 w/ counter backup. He ends games quickly and without struggle. Most of the resources of the deck are for protecting him and making sure he goes all the way.

Force/Daze: obv.

Brainstorm: obv.

Enlightened tutor: Allows us to up threat density, and allows us to seek out all of our sideboard cards, making it like having 6 of each sideboard card. It is really strong as a first turn play for a dreadnought... wouldn't play the deck without it!

Aether Vial: Cheats! This card is the cheats! Makes my dudes uncounterable and instant speed. Makes epochrisites 4/4s for free as well, a great first turn play as well.

Vision charm: Combos with dreadnought, which is the main reason for its' inclusion. It also stops mirage tutors and acts as temporary removal for an alpha strike. It is a pretty decent utility card all together.

Stifle: Works great against control and combo. It is good tempo gained against fetchland users, and is here for the nought. The dream card.

The sideboard is still under construction, it is ever changing ever since its' conception.

I decided to include cards that are cheap and efficient; but my choices were limited, as I felt that artifacts and enchantments would be optimal, as they can be tutored up by the enlightened tutor.

basic card explanation:

planar void: just like leyline of the void, but a little slower... can be tutored and played out at a bargain price.

arcane laboratory: shuts down combo in general, it is blue though so they might be able to blast it, so rule of law will be considered.

engineered plague: the classic answer to goblins, and it can be tutored up.

pithing needle: good against landstill and survival, pretty decent against random decks like scepter-chant as well.

engineered explosives: a cheap and efficient answer to low cc permanents and tokens, it can also be recurred by the ruins as well, which is a plus!

IV.

MU:

Goblins (Rg):
The match is complex and simple at the same time. You have one of two goals in this game that you have to accomplish, one is simply going for broke and getting the dreadnought ASAP and just win, or block up the board with epochrisites and others until you force their plans into action with the dreadnought. If they start developing their board, then you are in trouble. Lackey is a nightmare as you only have 12 first turn answers to him on the draw and only 20 on the draw; lackey usually connects if he gets dropped first turn (other wise he doesn’t connect).
Basically, if you don’t get a dreadnought in the first 5 turns, you will probably get steam rolled; I have won games after turn 6 against them, but it is a struggle nevertheless.
Overall win % preboard is about 60%.

Postboard: board -2 meddling mage, -1 dark confidant, +3 engineered plague; they will bring in grips; you will mainly want to use the plagues as a stall tactic, maybe using one tutor for them. After you use them you will try to get a dreadnought in play, as they have wasted their grips on the plague… sometimes this doesn’t work as planned and you should simply play like game one with plague as a backup strategy; it is just how you feel at the moment, your gut instinct is usually the right one.
Overall win % postboard is about the same at 60%

Threshold (UGr):
This is an interesting match indeed. They have no outs to your dreadnought short of countering him. Your main concern is their countermagic. A resolved vial is a major pain in the ass for them, especially as most of them nowadays only run 4-7 burn spells to kill your dudes. I will usually play a mage naming bolt and another naming goyf; which is a little bit more devastating than it sounds. More often than not they will play the 9 counter split of 4 force/3 daze/ 2 counterspell; so in the early turns, you have the better chance of getting the nought into play. If they open with a first turn cantrip or mongoose, you can get a first turn tutor into a second turn dreadnought. They can out agro you though if you fail to draw creatures beyond the wizards, this has happened a couple times.
Overall win % preboard is about 65-70%

Postboard: board -1 dark confidant, -1 meddling mage, -1 epochrisite, +3 engineered explosives; occasionally you can get a pseudo lock with the academy ruins and the explosives. They will most likely bring in grips and sometimes they will bring in counterbalance, just remember that you can pay more for an explosives, just keep it at 2 so you can blow up the CB. The mages should name either grip or CB, you will struggle if they manage to get both going. I have won some games even in this scenario, but thy are beating down with goyfs all the while. Explosives are your best friend this game.
Overall win % postboard is about 60-70%, it varies on whether they bring in one or the other or both (CB & grip).

Threshold (UGw):
They have an out and they’ll let you know it! Your biggest play in this game is to get a meddling mage on the table naming swords to plowshares (they usually let him resolve as they don’t think he will matter). With swords out of the way feel free to use vials as fodder, they will usually counter it if they fear uncounterable unswordsable critters. You get a couple of epochrisites on board and a condifant and you will just have to wait on the nought. All you have to o is wait at that point. Occasionally they will let the secod mage resolve/live and you can name goyf (Leaving them with goose half of the time). Nimble mongoose is not all that scary when you can start vialing in uncounterable 4/4s that cannot die.
Overall preboard win % is about 65%

Postboard see UGr, except you will board: -1 dreadnought, -1 stifle, -1 meddling mage, +3 engineered explosives; the outcomes are the same as with UGr threshold, occasionally they board in mages (idiots do this), but you already have an answer in vial and explosives.
Overall win % is about 70%

Landstill (ugwb):
Landstill is one of this deck’s worst matches. Unlike this deck, who will usually want to finish early, landstill wants to win late, and will usually do so. Your main goal here is to get a vial and get it to stick; if you can get a dreadnought very early, take the chance! The main ways of winning this game are through a mage on swords + epochrisites en mass, or a very quick dreadnought. They usually have pleanty of cards to do away with your creatures and pleanty of hard counters; remember that your dazes will be FoW fodder after turn 4-5.
Overall preboard win % is low, like 35-40% or so.

Postboard: They will bring in grips, and you will bring in needles. Your goal is to get a needle on deed, then mage naming swords; you should be in good shape after that until they get into the late game. Immediately after getting those in place, try your best to get vials to stick, if you cannot then they may have used their countermagic up and you may be able to try to get a dreadnought to stick. Usually I will try to get epochrisites in play then attak with them every turn, this will eventually force the opponent to animate their lands and block them, this is the best opportunity to get the dreadnought into play.
I board, -1 dreadnought, -1 Aether vial, -1 dark confidant, +3 pithing needle.
Overall win % is about 50% here, the needles are a dramatic change in the match; it forces them to sometimes waste grips on them.

Stax (Armageddon stax):
Worst possible match you could ask for. They can shut you down and push you around. I playtested against this for 30 games and only won about 5 of them, and I am sure those were mere luck. They play ghostly prison which is a pain in the ass, they play trinisphere and chalice which shut us down, and they play mass land destruction and creature destruction which we also do not like. I was concidering playing energy flux just for this matchup, but it is useless in any other circumstances.
Preboard win % is about 15%, no joke, just scoop and save yourself the frustration.

Postboard: don’t board in anything, they won’t either (usually), stays the same overall.

Very quick combo (I lumped belcher and Bg Spanish Inquisition here):
This match is ridiculously good here. You have the quickest clock in legacy (for agro-control that is), as well as pleanty of quick disruption. You can mage their main wincons and scave them off with countermagic, or just get the second turn dreadnought with daze backup to slow them down for that one turn you need to kill them. The game is ridiculously good, pre and post board.
Overall win % is really high, like 70%; occasionally they will get their first turn wins and you will not have FoW or daze or stifle and they just win while you sit their, this happens ¼ of the time, as their first turn win %s are pretty high, but you usually have disruption and they don’t always kill you first turn. I love when they go for broke and play a first turn ETW just to get trumped by a dreadnought on your turn; priceless!
Overall preboard win % is 75%

Postboard you bring in the lab, you will board: -1 dark confidant, -2 epochrisite, +3 arcane laboratory.
You can tutor for it and it generally shuts them down, they will only have a couple outs, and you can just force them when they come up. Meddling mage also comes in handy to remove their outs and seal the deal, then you can win the game with anything at that point.
Overall win % is about 80%, no joke either

The deck is a blast to play, and is also a self piloting deck; there really isn’t any thinking when it comes down to it, as every play is usually an obvious one. I think it could easily be picked up by any player with ease and without worry.

Nihil Credo

12-28-2007, 10:16 PM

Is Arcane Laboratory the best use for those slots, given that you murder combo anyway (and that it isn't a big presence in most metagames)?
If those were turned to Duress (or maybe Thoughtseize) they would still pad the combo matchup while also helping a lot against control decks.

thefreakaccident

12-28-2007, 10:28 PM

I think that you are probably right, it would also be alright against some other decks as well... I probably wouldn't board it in against other decks though, as it is so hard to make room for the 3 ofs in the board already.

Perhapes just drop it so I could get 4 plagues, 4 planar voids, and 4 explosives... I am not quite sure yet.

etrigan

12-28-2007, 11:18 PM

Your Goblins matchup doesn't mention Tin-Street Hooligan. It seems like it would be a big problem. How have you handled it?

Ancient Grudge, in the UGr thresh matchup, but maybe others as well, looks like a big problem too. How have you dealt with it?

Also, and I think this is the big problem, how do you beat Counterbalance, even post board? Hope to resolve Vial/Needle before it come online? Stifle it? I suggest some number of Wipe Aways in the board.

thefreakaccident

12-28-2007, 11:27 PM

Tin-street is of little importance, I can vision charm my dreadnought in response, counter him, stifle him... he also doesn't work is vialed in, lackied in, or they have a warcheif...

In my experience, most people board in grips (which are more dangerous as they cannot be countered)... I would mage it or counter it or recurr my dude/ give him a phase.

Counterbalance top was mentioned, it is a pain in the ass; but I can pay more than 2 for an explosives to kill it, and it is recurrable, and it can kill other annoyances that could/would pop up.

I much fear grip more than any of the things you have brought up, but I am glad you did bring them up, because they are obstacles...

Meddling mage is really good at saving my ass from cards I would rather not see hit play; he is really good at it.

Sometimes, I won't even know what to name sometimes and just name things that I would hate to see just to feel more secure, and make the win that much easier to obtain.

Wipe away is an idea, perhaps for the lab slots.... this slot is still undecided, I never really liked its' existance in my board though...

technogeek5000

12-31-2007, 06:26 PM

I dont think epochrasite should be in the deck. Sure a 4/4 for 2 mana is impressive. But thats realy the only aggro your going to have. meddling mage and dark confidant will never win a combat step and live so you wont be attacking with them and that leaves you with epochrasite. Anyways tarmogoyf is a 4/5 or 5/6 for 2 mana so you wont be able to swing through that. Dreadnought decks want to control the opponent then win through the 12/12 trampler. Adding aggro to the deck wont realy do much and you would probably be better off with a control or draw piece in epochrasites slot.

thefreakaccident

12-31-2007, 08:25 PM

Epochrisite is in the deck mainly because it is recurrable with ruins and it is phasible with the charm... it is also very good as it brings itself back agaoinst control, as well as being almost as large as goyf (not quite, but almost).

Nosomo.

12-31-2007, 09:12 PM

Rood

01-01-2008, 08:17 PM

Happy Gilmore

01-01-2008, 08:59 PM

I run a nought list myself except with a bit more control. Trinket Mage toolbox is incredible powerful and should be revisited. The Epoch's should be considered to be dropped for them. Also it would enable you to run needle and EE.

Right after the errata chance on PD, I tested a UW list sporting CB+Top, Trinket Mage, and the Naught interaction. I was running Enightened tutor and was loving it. Partially because it could get CB. The deck would have been so so much better with vision charm but I didn't know about the interaction. The card is never useless since it can save your naught or DC or Meddling mage.

So far this seems like one of the better decks in the contest. Your testing results seem far more informative than any others I have seen. Great job.

just one suggestion about the SB:

3 engineered plague
3 engineered explosives
1 Rule of Law
2 Pithing needle
1 Planar Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Threads of Disloyalty

Oh and in the MD try
-1 Epochrisite
+1 Vial

it makes a little more sense that way, since then you can go turn 1 vial more often. You can then follow vial up by searching for Epochrisite if necessary.

thefreakaccident

01-01-2008, 10:08 PM

Thank you happy for your post... I was waiting to hear some nice constructive criticism... I do like the theoretical SB you posted, it could very well be better than my current one (especially with those labs in my list)...

I honestly think that Tmage is too slow for this deck, as with enlightened tutr you can still get the second turn dreadnought... the Tmage is also a little more limited as it cannot search echantments and other artifacts/enchantments..

I like the eposhrites in the MD, although I may be willing to cut one of them or a land for that other aether vial, as it is always a strong play for a first turn vial.

I am not sure that CB/Top is all that worth it, we run the quickest clock in legcy, lets abuse that fact; not slow it down.

Thanks for the feedback you guys! Keep it comming!

Nosomo.

01-02-2008, 12:15 AM

Dropping the 4th epocracite for a vial/land is not a great idea. Last time I checked your average mana cost was 1.4, you do not need any more lands if your average mana cost is the same as combo. As for a fourth vial, it would be superfluous to add a vial when you only need one and even though it has its tricks, it is not worth dropping a critter. Especially when 1 neededs a card to survive and the other 2 are only 2/1, 2/2 critters. You may want to drop a land for a vial but even then I would not suggest it.

thefreakaccident

01-03-2008, 01:36 PM

Interesting insight Colt.

This deck uses vial much differently than other decks would, as opposed to goblins who use it as sheer combat tricks and to avoid countermagic influence; this deck has a totally different feel with vial.

We use vial for uncounterability (the same) and we use it to take advantage of out cards effects, you have 2 vials at two (or one, saying you either have stifle or a countermagic spell), the belcher player just played 3 ritual effects running himself up to say 6 mana, in response to that last ritual effect you will vial in MMage naming the wincon, they fizzle and they burn for 6.

It also allows us the ability to avoid sorcery speed removal so our confidants draw us more cards when cast at their EOT.

Epochrisite just gets bigger (he is pretty solid, as they cannot get rid of him out side of swords).

Vial is more of a midgame answer of sorts for this deck, it also allows the infinite nought trick as well (ruins, vial at one, 2 dreadnoughts... unless they get swords you get one to stick eventually).

That's at least how I look at it; I am usually a control player though, and it has only been recently that I have been dabbling into aggro-control more often, although I have been playing aggro-control for a long while (thresh for prizes)... my logic could be flawed and there could be a better way to abuse my cards to their fullest, I just need to find how!

Nosomo.

01-04-2008, 01:27 AM

Isamaru

01-04-2008, 01:53 AM

Have you ever read Flores' article on 4x/1x? It is a good read, and I am not a big fan of his (at all).

Anyway, always play 4x Aether Vial or 0x. I cannot tell you how many times I have this Force of Willed on turn 1. In real life, I draw 2x of my 4x about once every 5+ games, if even. And on MWS, I draw 2x of my 4x about once every 3 games... still, why does it hurt to have an extra out?

Also, tutoring for a Vial would never happen. I wouldn't want to skip a draw (Enlightened) for it either. It needs to come down Turn 1 (NO tutor can get you that unless you're playing Rituals or Vintage or random crap) and it needs to happen as often as possible. That's why you play 4x Dark Ritual in a deck. It isn't good midgame, but you want to have it in your opening hand as often as possible.

3x Vial, Brainstorm, FoW, Ritual, Goyf, etc. is almost always wrong. This almost goes with the 61-card-deck discussion, but "3x" problems are bigger in the end.

Bovinious

01-04-2008, 01:55 AM

Do you have a link to that article? I remember reading it once and would like to again but cannot find it...

thefreakaccident

01-04-2008, 01:57 AM

I didn't say anything about the number of Aether vials, as a midgame card it is perfect at only 3, especially since you only want 1 usually and you have tutors for it... a fourth tutor would be nice though, I have no idea what to cut from the list if I were to add it...

My sideboard is pretty self explanatory, I think it still needs a little work though...

4 engineered plague (good against gobs and other decks)
3 pithing needle (control, belcher)
4 planar void
2 engineered explosives
2 energy flux (recent addition, gives us hope against stax... but not really, hurts affinity)

EDIT:

No, I do not know exactly where to find a link to that article

EDIT 2:

I much perfer to have a first turn tutor to ensure that I can get the second turn dreadnought anyways. Vial is a great card, don't get me wrong; but its' effectiveness goes down with the less creatures you have in a deck, taking creatures out to put more vials in would make no sense in this case. If there was a way to get 4 vials while still keeping 16 creatures I would gladly do it, but we are running the bare essentials as it is anyways... I could only consider one move for the deck and that would be:

-1 underground sea
+1 vial

But I am unsure what this would do to the deck overall... I will test this change and get back to you guys in the morning.

Lemuria

01-04-2008, 05:12 AM

Personally, I like Serenity and Rebuild much more against Stax.

thefreakaccident

01-04-2008, 12:23 PM

Serenity is a very good call, we should only need it to work once anyways...

-2 flux (from board)
+2 serenity (into board)

By the by, I tested out the fourth vial in place of the fourth underground sea; it works a little bit better that way, and I think the change will be permanent.

zulander

01-04-2008, 12:30 PM

thefreakaccident

01-04-2008, 12:57 PM

Epochrasite is baaaaad. Don't play him, and please don't say he's aggro. The only way he's a 4/4 turn 3 is if you get 1 of the 3 aether vile's in your opening hand. If you actually hard cast him he's a 1/1 that your opponent's won't care about. Also, add counters to the list of cards that stop him.

I will respond to only the first portion of this post as the rest makes little to no sense to me.

He is the best creature that we can play in that slot that is in the 2cc range that does not require us to splash a color or run jotan grunt...
We do not run many cantrips or anything similar to put massive amounts of cards into the yard for jotan grunt to live; even in the late game he will probably only live for a couple of turns. Epochrasite, while small if hard casted (rarely done, as you are right he is tiny) is still very good, where he can get rather large when vialed in and he only dies to two things...

1.) removal + stifle = card advantage, I don't mind
2.) swords to plowshares = one less threat to my dreadnought, which is the main thing that matters in case you did not get the memo.

With the now 4 vials (read changes 1 post ago), you can reasonably get the 4/4 epochrasite that you are looking for.... I don't feel comfortable with 4 colors just for Tarmogoyf anyways; I will test it, as I test all suggestions to see if they have merit and to see why or why not they are bad, so as to have good arguements in the future... off to testing 4c!

Illissius

01-04-2008, 08:55 PM

What about some Tombstalkers? Great second use for Vision Charm.

Nosomo.

01-05-2008, 12:16 AM

With the now 4 vials (read changes 1 post ago), you can reasonably get the 4/4 epochrasite that you are looking for.... I don't feel comfortable with 4 colors just for Tarmogoyf anyways; I will test it, as I test all suggestions to see if they have merit and to see why or why not they are bad, so as to have good arguements in the future... off to testing 4c!

You could run Tarmogoyf in this for a light splah due to your main wincons are U and the rest are small splashes and you have vials, but I am worried about you mana-fixing.
Oh and by the way I am going to kill you for running Goyf, Robert.:mad: JK

thefreakaccident

01-05-2008, 12:50 AM

I tested tarmogoyf in place of epochrasite, and with -1 sea, -1 tundra, +2 trop... The change to the mana base was too much, and the goyfs weren't getting big at all, as they would usually be a 2/3 or a 3/4... unfortunately this is unimpressive and just bad for the deck overall.

I think that epochrisite is probably the best fit, except I will test some other creatures in his slot, such as serra avenger, mother of runes, and jotan grunt... results in the morning!

Mister Agent

01-07-2008, 02:14 PM

I personally think extirpate would be better then planar void on a general level.

I think this deck could use some jotun grunts as well considering grunts could fit better in here then tarmogoyfs based off of thefreakaccident's previous post. I also agree with happy gilmore threads of disloyalty is a must or you could even try gilded drake as well.

With some more changes to this deck I think this deck can do pretty well in the current metagame.

thefreakaccident

01-07-2008, 02:43 PM

Threads is pretty good, I will admit I haven't tested it for lack of interest; but I will... and I will post changes soon if it seems promising enough!

I have come to conclusions on those creature slots that I tested earlier in this week (well late last week).

Jotan grunt is ok, but lives for a very short while, whereas I only have so many cards in my GY and he is dependant on the opponents GY because of this.

Serra avenger was the best of all the creatures I tested (although mother was funny with dreadnought as additional protection), as she had evasion and was only 1/1 away from my epochrasite.

Epochrasite was the best so far, as it has that whole unkillablee clause tied into it; which is quite frustrating for most decks.

He was also the same size as grunt most of the time anyways, which is another reason that I am still keeping him where he is.

The reason I used planar void was the sheer ability to tutor for it to hose GY strategies, although extirpate is just an all around better card at that.

Thanks for the suggestions/ideas Kevin!!!

klaus

01-07-2008, 07:25 PM

Yo Freak!
alright, this is in no way meant to be offensive...anyway:

I thought this forum was meant for "new" decks or already existing archetypes with an entirely new twist - well your list comprises most of the (by now almost) 'traditional' UBW Dreadnought-Fish hybrid elements.
Here's a list for instance (from November '07, Japaneese tournament) that resembles yours to a high degree - the major difference would be the lack of maindecked MMagi, which are basically replaced by Duresses...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12200

Please explain...:confused:

best,
Klaus

thefreakaccident

01-07-2008, 08:31 PM

That is the list that this deck was originally based off of, this idea is still relatively new (although that is the original and this is the newest list).

I have had history with dreadnought decks, my time with dreadnought eventually evolved into the UWB list you see presented here in this thread; that list is still relatively new as well as the article was created a mere few days before I posted this deck.

This is still a valid submission.

I even gave credit to the article in the opening post... Reading FTW!

JDunkin00

01-12-2008, 10:38 AM

I really like epochrocite. I play him T2 but have not yet tried to port him to legacy. Just so you know Stifle on the unsusspend trigger gets him too. BTW nice deck and good luck in the contest.

Nosomo.

01-13-2008, 11:14 PM

Here is a crazy idea, run gilded drake in the SB. Why? It is useful against anything with big critters such as Reanimator or MossNought. You usually have a vial at 2 for Epoc/Mage crazies with the drake you could steal the hulk/nought. Just a thought.

thefreakaccident

01-23-2008, 02:36 AM

I know that this is a necro of sorts... but I have some fantastic news... I have a totally different deck list to bring to everyones attention, and while this is not by any means a new list (I have worked on it for quite some time... say a year or so...), it is durrastically different from the one in the opening post and has the ability to be just plain unfair to many opponents and many many decks... without further adiu... Nought Goyf:

lands//18
4 tropical island
2 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 island
2 forest
1 breeding pool
1 academy ruins

creatures//12
4 tarmogoyf
4 trinket mage
4 phyrexian dreadnought

permission//11
4 force of will
4 daze
3 counterbalance

draw//10
2 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

utility//9
4 stifle
4 vision charm
1 engineered explosives

sideboard//
2 engineered explosives (random low curve, usually thresh)
4 tormod's crypt (loam, ichorid, breakfast)
3 pithing needle (belcher, landstill, breakfast)
3 propaganda (aggro... ETW, ichorid)
3 trygon predator (stax... affinity)

The role is completely different, as you have a lock down mechanism now and an alternate win in Tarmogoyf... You also run more cantrips to make up for the loss of confidant, who is missed dearly...

Trinket mage can grab cards that you board in, the ever useful EE, the ever deadly 12/12 trampler, or the other half of the lock mechanism (SD +CB).

It is very difficult to board with this build however and it will not come easy to those who have not played with it extensively, as some descisions are difficult to make.

I accidentally leaked this deck quite a while ago, but it almost immediately fell under the radar... so I guess it worked out for the best in the end!

Rood

01-23-2008, 11:47 AM

In my experience with playing Trinket-Nought myself I find the 1x Needle to be extremely useful against random annoying crap like Vial, EE, etc. Perhaps you could do something along the lines of -1 Ponder +1 Needle. Nice deck, I personally run a mono-blue list but it has been putting up fantastic results.

thefreakaccident

01-23-2008, 06:40 PM

I don't know what I would name with needle for every MU though... it would help in the control matchup MD a little bit, but outside of that (and hitting aether vial against goblins)... I don't see its' usefulness.

Rood

01-24-2008, 09:47 AM

Hell, even against 43 Lands getting a Vial and hitting Maze of Ithe is extremely helpful, or hell any Loam deck packing Ithe

Mister Agent

01-24-2008, 05:57 PM

thefreakaccident

01-24-2008, 08:32 PM

You mean something alongst the list of:

lands//18
3 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 polluted delta
1 academy ruins
3 flooded strand
2 island
1 swamp

creatures//15
4 tarmogoyf
4 trinket mage
4 dark confidant
3 phyrexian dreadnought

spells//27
4 force of will
4 daze
3 counterbalance
2 sensei's divining top
4 stifle
3 vision charm
4 brainstorm
3 thoughtsieze

sideboard//
3 extirpate
3 trygon predator
4 engineered plague
2 engineered explosives
2 pithing needle
1 tormod's crypt

I think the black splash for the UBg build looks promising... I chose predator over grip mainly because it has a lasting effect... explosives is still good, and everyone knows how good thoughtseize is.... I think this build could have some great meritt.

Mister Agent

01-25-2008, 07:09 PM

thefreakaccident

01-25-2008, 07:18 PM

This is true... that was a quicky of sorts though... I do like the thoughtseizes, but it would really be between them and brainstorm... and brainstorm is better for obvious reasons...

Perhaps:
-1 thoughseize
-2 brainstorm????

I like having the brainstorms as they are good with CB and Confidant... as well as just being the best draw ever (you know, that whole thing...)...

You are right though, I cannot always assume dreadnought will live... But do you need removal if you have rediculous amounts of disruption and tarmogoyf and dreadnought?

They are the biggest creatures to see play, and you have confidant to draw more of them than most other decks... I could be totally off base though, as I am usually the aggressor with this deck, playing threat after threat and disruption peice after disruption piece without any letting up in sight for the opponent... I have gotten many games with the UWB varient where I get a first turn duress, a second turn dreadnought w/ daze/fow backup... (I am a lucky nutsack though...)... Even a second/third turn dreadnought with that kind of disruption is kinda devastating.

Then again... I am border line obsessive and biased towards the deck at this point that all my reasonings may be totally off... My tournament tonight will tell my tale (good or bad, win or loose...)

Tournament report will follow kidlets!!!

Wynk

01-25-2008, 07:41 PM

Good luck at the tournament.

If you are going the counterbalance route, shouldn't you have at least 3 tops though?

thefreakaccident

01-25-2008, 07:44 PM

You can tutor for it... and you have other cantrips... you may be right though, I will notify you guys if I have any last second alterations for the tournament, in the report.

Wish me luck!!! This is dreadnought's tournament debut!!! (I hope it isn't another small one, that would be lame).

whienot

01-26-2008, 01:14 AM

What about some Tombstalkers? Great second use for Vision Charm.

I like it. 1st turn fetch, vision charm. 2nd turn land Tombstalker.

So, you have the potential for a second turn 5/5 flyer or 12/12 trampler.

Mister Agent

01-26-2008, 02:45 AM

thefreakaccident

01-26-2008, 02:58 AM

You speak truth... Forcing him into play and keeping him there are totally different things... That's why one has to be very strategistic when playing with dreadnoughts.

If they are playing white, you will play a mage naming swords... black = smother... You can slow play with vials, confidants, and epochrisites...

I usually go for the throat, but against someone who is playing landstill perse, you cannot do this, nor will you desire to.

I just played in a tourney and did very well going 3-1...

I played this list:

lands//17
4 tundra
3 underground sea
2 island
1 plains
1 academy ruins
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta

creatures//15
4 dark confidant
4 epochrisite
4 phyrexian dreadnought
3 meddling mage

spells//28
4 force of will
4 daze
3 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
3 duress
4 stifle
3 vision charm
3 enlightened tutor

sideboard//
4 engineered plague
4 planar void
3 engineered explosives
3 pithing needle
1 meddling mage

*My sideboard was bad, as I could not find my cards before the tourney...

I went like this:
0-2 against Funkbrew (slower, worse varient.... he attritioned me out of the game both games)
2-0 against UW Fish
2-0 against BHWC landstill
2-0 against UG merfolk w/ goyfs and grips in board

The 3-1 was ok, but I felt like I was robbed round one, as I drew nothing but crap all game...

Against landstill I won by vialing in my meddling mages, G2 all 4 saw play...

I waffle stomped the Merfolk deck, it was redonkadonk.

The tourney had a very small turn out, I think it was like 12 people w/ no T8 cut off/ face off.

Nosomo.

02-14-2008, 12:45 PM

I don't mean to necro this thread or anything... (well, I kinda do cuz I think rob's deck is amazing)...

How did you beat Nick T. and his landstill when you played him at the local?

You said that the MU was terrible and that there was little hope.

What were th two fish deck's like? (the merfolk and the UW)...

Do you think you would change the list if you were to take the deck somewhere else to compete with? (I mean anywhere outside of San Diego).

thefreakaccident

02-14-2008, 12:56 PM

WHOA!!!

Colton?! Since when did you start trolling these boards again?!

Well, I guess I can dignify your questions with some good reponses.

Landstill was piloted by one of Nick's friends, not Nick... still a very good pilot though!

I was able to get vials to stick both of our games and used epoch's to stall/bait removal and such until I felt good enough to try for the dreadnought... it paid off both games!

The fish decks were just old fashioned fish decks... nothing really to elaborate there...

This was a long time ago.. I can't remember details about those games too well.

This deck's proactive (mage/duress) and reactive (fow and daze) disruption make it hard for any deck to truely crush it... when you get a good mix, you can't loose.

I have also recently changed my SB, to -4 void +4 crypt... crypt is recurrable w/ ruins, and is faster and easier on the manabase...

This deck is still a force to be dealt with... I just wish more people would pick it up and see for themselves... although it is difficult to board with this deck.

Mister Agent

02-16-2008, 07:24 PM

Actually Robert I saw this one deck that actually looks very similiar to yours. It does not have white splashed in but its worth looking at since it top 8 at an 90+ player tournament the Danish Championships. The top 8 was standard full of threshold and landstill and one survival deck. Likewise, here is the deck list that I am talking about.

UB StifleNought top 8 Danish Champs November 2007

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

Sorcery
2 Duress
2 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

Artifacts
2 Aether Vial
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Lotus Petal

Lands
2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
4 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

This list looks like it can handle ichorid as well afterboarding anyway. Threads of disloyalty is also awesome in the deck since stealing goyfs are priceless.

Here is the link reference:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13191

Srovex

02-20-2008, 04:49 PM

how good are Trickbinds vs. Vision charms? If you see your opponent has slow start you could just go to town with some nice mana denial strategy. 4x Stifle + 2x Trickbind handles fetches nicely. Now... if you just could squeese in some wastelands...

thefreakaccident

02-20-2008, 06:36 PM

The vision charms are in there to allow more second turn dreadnought plays, and allows the deck another way to dodge removal (i.e. smother on dreadnought... etc.).

Clockworkbanana

02-21-2008, 05:58 AM

Hey i really like this deck a bunch one of the more fun decks in CaNG in my opinion. I have just a have a few newb questions about the deck, first of all how exactly does the phasing work with the dreadnought and vision charm? and seecondly if i aether vial in a epocharasite is he a 4/4 </newb>

Willoe

02-21-2008, 04:23 PM

1) Charm works, that surprised me too in the first place. All that has to be present is well, the dreadnought. Dreadnought comes into play, his trigger goes to the stack. In response, you play vision charm making it phase out (check extra rules on phasing another place, I don't want to explain them). Since no creature is in play, you choose to sacrifice the dreadnought. But since there is no dreadnought, there is nothing to sacrifice. When dreadnought phases in the next time (in your next upkeep), his CiP trigger doesn't occur because of the NEW phasing rules. I don't know where to find the rules, but someone else surely does. Ask them.

2) Yeah, Epo can be vialed into play and become 4/4. It is because putting into play isn't the same as playing from your hand. This explains why myojin of life's web cannot use its ability to make more moyjin's with counters. Played it from your hand and putting into play are two completely different things. And since Epo is put into play and therefore fulfilling its requirement for being bigger by NOT being PLAYED it becomes 4/4.

Is that clear enough?

Clockworkbanana

02-21-2008, 09:52 PM

yeah thanks that answers the questions well. Thats how i thought the rules worked but someone in my causal group disagreed and i just needed a more concise (and accurate) way of explaining it.

Nosomo.

02-21-2008, 10:40 PM

Hey Bob test out transmute artifact in the main if you can. It seems like a two for one but it helps you if you need a artifact if you want more bullets in the side, or if you have a stifle/charm in hand and you want a big daddy.

thefreakaccident

02-21-2008, 11:03 PM

That's why the deck runs Enlightened tutor... which is more cost effective, and has the option of searching for enchantments (needed in the goblin MU postboard).

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=15355

Charm is pretty good, but it is kinda tricky to play with if you have no 'big daddies' to cheat into play... that is why, against control, it can be used as a pseudo-timewalk (turn your islands into whatev. color you don't run).

@Agent Funk.. I like that list, but I don't like trinket mage when you can just play enlightened tutor (faster, more efficient...).

Again it is also more flexible, I can see where the stronger manabase can come into play though...

FredMaster

05-17-2008, 03:35 PM

Hi nerds,
since I've dealed with the Dreadnought-Archetype for a little while, with lots of success btw, I searched for a Stiflenought Thread on this page and didn't really found anything but this that had quite the same gameplan and color as my deck. When my deck doesn't really cover the same interests as "The Dreaded Fish" please don't bother to remove it from game :wink:
What I've worked on is a UBG Aggro Control decks that runs pretty much each card that can make your opponent sweat as it hits play.
Therefore the following cards had to be included in the deck:
1. Tarmogoyf
2. Dark Confidant
3. Phyrexian Dreadnought
4. Counterbalance (&Sensei's Divining Top)

What I personally dislike in this case is Trinket Mage. In my opinion he's just a little too clumsy and not aggressive enough to give the deck the ability to gain the playstyle of an aggro deck if needed.

The manabase should be decent enough not to suffer too much from Wastelands and/or landdestruction alias Sinkhole and (this deck is a true hybrid) shall have the ability to wreck your opponents manabase -> as you might have guessed "Wasteland" is the searched answer.
What I came up with was a 20 card manabase with:
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp

Just for those people out there who need this sentence: I've tested it, works out perfectly.

The creatures were already mentioned earlier and I don't think I'll need any others.
What's left? The typical U-based aggro-control shell and some removal.
I give you the opportunity to have a peek on my list as a complete text to save you from scrolling and stuff:

//Manabase
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp

//Critter
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant

//Stuff
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Smother

60 Cards.

My sideboard consists of:
Extirpates against Landstill/Random Crap/Loam/Ichorid/Other graveyardbased decks
Krosan Grip against Landstill/Stompies/Staxx/Enchantress
Thoughtseize against Landstill/Combo/Random Crap
Hydroblast against Goblins/Dragonstompy/Burn/Goyfsligh
Yixlid Jailer against Ichorid/Cephalid Breakfast/Loam/Other graveyardbased decks

Well so much from my side, it's your turn to think of something smart to write now.

I've won and placed third with the deck on our local 20peepz tournament till today by the way.

thefreakaccident

05-17-2008, 10:57 PM

Mr original list, posted somewhere in the UG threshold thread was UG (of coarse right?)... it ran both stifle/waste and CB/top... this is what I found:

Cb/top wants mana... stifle/waste doesn't...

When I played it originally it had a couple issues mainly due to the fact that it didn't always get the best of both worlds, and many times the wastelands made it difficult to go for my own spells.

If I were to go at the deck again (dropped it, primarily because I haven't been playing much tournament magic lately), I would play white in it guaranteed.

There are two things I see wrong with your list (don't mean to be rude):

1. you only have 4 dreadnoughts (no ways of getting them... this will often leave you with dead stifle effects in hand).

2. you are running black and have no thoughtseizes in the main.

Here is a list that I would run:

lands//17
4 tundra
4 tropical island
1 island
1 plains
3 windswept heath
4 flooded strand

creatures//12
4 meddling mage
4 tarmogoyf
4 phyrexian dreadnought

spells//31
4 daze
4 force of will
3 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
1 engineered explosives
3 enlightened tutor
4 stifle
2 trickbind

Mage and CB will give you an extreme amount of protection for your dreadnoughts, tutor allows you to get dreadnought quicker, and also allows you to tutor up CB/top to lock the opponent out of the game. The explosives is there just in case something nasty hits the board and you somehow cannot handle it.

FredMaster

05-18-2008, 04:50 AM

Well first of all, I've tinkered with the UWG variant as well and found out, that Confidant + nice Sideboard options just seem to work better than a Meddling Mage in a deck that runs Tarmogoyf.
About the 4 Dreadnoughts:
I run 7 Cardquality cards in the maindeck to find it + Confidant. In the end he's just a finisher, that can come out early, if you are lucky. But seriously in this deck you don't need that early Nought - early Goyf/Bob/Counterbalance does the job as well.
The next sentence isn't meant to be rude as well but your statement about the dead stifle effect on our hand is just pure bullshit. I wouldn't even dare to use those words in combination. Just to remind you what stifle can target:
EE, Deed, Fetchlands, Wastelands, Ringleader, Lackey, Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, any Equipment actions, Dark Confidant, Eternal Witness, Maze of Ith, Storm, Decree of Justice, Dreadnought ;) - i mean there are like a billion targets that make sense and numerous ones without of course.
Concerning your list:
- No wastelands but 6 Stifle effects? Nonsense.
- One f*** single EE as your removal? HELLO? You seem really confident.

Are there any reasonable comments on my list maybe? :rolleyes:

myselves

05-23-2008, 02:14 PM

Are there any reasonable comments on my list maybe? :rolleyes:

Actually not realy.
I would like to see 1-2 C. Mox in this deck, but actually I don't dare to tell you to cut this or that. On the one hand you don't have the slots actually, on the other C Mox speeds up every deck a lot, with Bob and Cantrips you have no problem to deal with the CD.
And the possibility to have 2 Mana Turn 1 in this deck ist terific, it just enables you to do nearly everything you want.

So I would recommend this:
-1 Island
+1 C.Mox
And maybe make room for a 2nd by cutting a Smother or anything like this.

No Smother would be a big problem, at first the Creatures you want to get rid of are things like Terravore or anything nasty like this, which you can't stop in a other way.

Maybe try to cut a Tropical for the 3rd Strand, you don't have Ponder, so more effects allowing you to shuffle are something the thing you're yearning for.

Nydaeli

05-23-2008, 03:35 PM

Are there any reasonable comments on my list maybe? :rolleyes:

Is 0 Ponder really correct?
Is Daze better than Thoughtseize in the main? (It probably is with the huge tempo focus of the deck [i.e. Stifle/Waste], but Thoughtseize is really good.)

FredMaster

05-23-2008, 04:06 PM

I know that TSs are good - that's why they've found their way into the sideboard. But as you already mentioned, Daze and therefore speed is more important than disrupting your opponent first. Because of the high threat density you no longer need those mainboard Thoughtseizes.

The Moxes are worth testing though. But I guess 2 are enough for a start.

Roman Candle

05-23-2008, 05:42 PM

- One f*** single EE as your removal? HELLO? You seem really confident.

Are there any reasonable comments on my list maybe? :rolleyes:

:laugh:

That being said, I don't think we're giving Trinket Mage the props it deserves... not only can it fetch Dreadnaught, it can also grab EE (helping with the whole removal shortage thing), Sensei's+Confidant for CB or just card quality, Pith, and maybe artifact land(s), as well as Tormod's Crypt out of the board (or maindeck).

It would more or less allow you to get rid of white in accident's list, since it can replace Enlightened Tutor and the extra grab at Sensei makes CB more reliable and therefore makes MM less important.

And Riptide Laboratory+Trinket Mage/Confidant is fun, although it hurts the manabase a little bit.

FredMaster

05-24-2008, 05:14 AM

The point about Trinket Mage, I was making earlier already was that it isn't a threat itself. The good thing about this deck and the reason for it success is the huge threat density. There is almost nothing which isn't a good topdeck (apart from that you almost have no topdecks because of the Top and Confidant). Trinket Mage would slow the deck down too much, I think. Additionally I am not a fan of the guy personally.
Tutorable removal might be nice, but not in form of EE. We play important permanents with cc1 and cc2 - which we just don't won't to get rid of accidently by ourself.

I'll go to a bigger tournament today (up to 50 participants) with the posted list and we'll see how it works out.

Hanni

05-24-2008, 05:51 AM

Yea, my name has been out of the loop for a long time. I really don't care. I. first, just want to ask a very important question: why the fuck are u splashing for Tarmogoyf? Goyf is going to be a very horrible win condition when the entire format is going to run Goyf as your blocker.

Out of that, I think Confidant and Meddling Mage are solid. But there is still better.

Visionn charm breaks adding Fish. Don't splash Fish, it's invalidated by Vision Charm:

U/B DreadStalker

Lands (17)

Creatures (8)
4 Phryexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker
1 Shriekmaw

Spells (27)
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Engineered Explosives

When I'm less drunk, I'll finish this post. Seriously. In awww, you'll all understand that this is not a joke. Then, I'll post a seperate post for how strong this decklist is... since it's not Dreadstill or some wannabe Dreadnought deck. Until then, please drool over the decklist cause it really is that strong.

mackaber

05-24-2008, 10:16 AM

I really don't think playing tombstalker invalidates playing bobs... he's that strong.

FredMaster

05-25-2008, 04:36 AM

Generally it is important to have Goyfs just to get into the stall and not getting beaten by your opponents Goofys. It is like in almost any other deck in the format: When you have more Goyfs, you win. End of story.

Thoughts about the list:
1. 17 Lands must mean no Wastelands. When I play 4 or more STifle effects in my decks, I'll always go with 3-4 Wastelands. It's just so sexy to gain the ability to screw 4c Landstills manabase or destroy pesky Mazes e.g..
2. Vision Charm is weaker than Trickbind in this deck. Trickbind finds so many more sensefull targets (I posted some of them above). Vision Charm might protect your Dreadnought but the STifleeffects are more important.
3. Ghastly Demise with 3 Tombstalkers - sense?
Apart from that I think Smother is stronger than Demise anyway.
4. No Counterbalance - God didn't give tortoises a shell and then ripped their legs of, did he?
You need this card really bad. It's a win against many decks and a huge support against others. It steals the opponent counters, which they could have needed against for beaters.

I wonder if you still like your list when you got rid of the influence of alcohol.

I went into the Top8 of the 39 people tournament yesterday.
My opponents were:

Armageddon Staxx 2-0
Dredge 2-0 :)
MonoBSuicide 2-1
4c Thresh 0-2 :/
Dredge 0-2

That's an unlucky 3-2 for me. I made 7th or 8th place.
I am thinking of playing 4 Leylines instead of Jailers in the sideboard now, since I saw 4 Ichorids yesterday - what do you think?

mackaber

05-25-2008, 06:57 AM

I think we are about to witness a Paradigm shift within the Lagacy metagame where the old truth: "More Goyfs win the game" will be made obsolete by the presence of 12/12 dudes whose presence on the board heavily outweighs that of Goyf. I do agree with goyfs and bobs being good in a dec with naughts since they are both critters that demand imediate attention in form of removal which clears the way for dreadnaught.

Hightower

05-25-2008, 07:06 AM

How did T8 go? Which deck got 1st etc.

Joon

05-25-2008, 07:24 AM

The Top8 looked like this:

1st: UWb Cunning Landstill piloted by NQN
2nd: Some kind of Thresh deck, I suppose the one of FredMaster's 4th round
3: Me with Dredge
4: ???
5: Another Guy with Dredge
6: MUC feat. PainterServant piloted by Sascha Thomsen, 43.lands.dec Inventer
7: TES piloted by myselves (who posted a few posts above)
8: FredMaster's StifleNaught

Dunno what place 4 was.

These information is from our forum, so I think they are correct, but there stand only the names of the participants, not the decks they piloted.

Hanni

05-25-2008, 08:29 AM

I really don't think playing tombstalker invalidates playing bobs... he's that strong.

I personally think that running Dark Confidant in a deck that does not support him as aggro, with cards like Jitte, is simply not optimal. He's already extremely vulnerable in the fact that almost every type of removal in the format kills him. Add to the fact that he's never going to enter the red zone and you are much better off running Phyrexian Arena. The biggest problem with either of these options is that it takes a while to gain a signifcant card advantage from either of these.

Let's assume you pay 1B for Confidant, he goes unanswered, and you draw 2 cards next turn. The first extra card you get is going to be card parity, replacing the Bob you played (since Bob isn't doing anything but drawing cards). So it takes 2 turns after you play him to actually get +1 CA... and this is at the expense of the life total... and this is assuming he doesn't get nailed.

In most matchups, you don't need CA. You drop an early Nought or Tombstalker... the opponent either answers it or loses.

The only matchups where CA is actually going to benefit you is the board control matchup and the aggro control matchup... and vs either of these, Phyrexian Arena is going to be the stronger option.

I realize that Confidant absorbs some of the opponent's removal, which is going to be good for Dreadnought... but honestly, simply running additional control in the Confidant spots are going to be just as effective for protecting Nought, while improving the board control and aggro/control matchups in the process (which are likely to be the most difficult matchups for this deck). Confidant would easily improve these matchups if he was replaced by Phryexian Arena... which I agree is an extremely strong card... in the sideboard.

Generally it is important to have Goyfs just to get into the stall and not getting beaten by your opponents Goofys. It is like in almost any other deck in the format: When you have more Goyfs, you win. End of story.

Splashing Goyf into Dreadnought as an alternate win condition is rediculous. Unless ur packing a similar removal package to my list, the only matchups where you are actually going to swing through with Goyf is Burn, Combo, and possibly control (like Landstill). Against control, don't expect that evasionless protectionless guy to go very far. Goyf is great in the right shell... but splashing him as an alternate win conidition is retarded: what do you do against a deck also running Goyf? Seriously? Run a different alternate win condition.

Thoughts about the list:
1. 17 Lands must mean no Wastelands. When I play 4 or more STifle effects in my decks, I'll always go with 3-4 Wastelands. It's just so sexy to gain the ability to screw 4c Landstills manabase or destroy pesky Mazes e.g..
2. Vision Charm is weaker than Trickbind in this deck. Trickbind finds so many more sensefull targets (I posted some of them above). Vision Charm might protect your Dreadnought but the STifleeffects are more important.
3. Ghastly Demise with 3 Tombstalkers - sense?
Apart from that I think Smother is stronger than Demise anyway.
4. No Counterbalance - God didn't give tortoises a shell and then ripped their legs of, did he?
You need this card really bad. It's a win against many decks and a huge support against others. It steals the opponent counters, which they could have needed against for beaters.

I really don't like committing to an LD strategy. Yea, Stifle + Wasteland is hot. But when you need to dedicate Stifle to being part of a combo, it weakens the strength of the LD plan. The LD plan is all or nothing... if you do not commit fully, it's typically not going to be effective. In this, I'm never committing my Stifles fully to an LD strategy.

Vision Charm may be weaker than Trickbind in the fact that it is counterable... but it's half the mana cost and has additional broken retarded effects. Vision charm enables turn 2 Tombstalkers... that in itself is far more broken than a turn 2 4/5 Goyf or the fact that Trickbind costs 1U and cannot be responded to. Vision charm also protects Nought/Stalker after they are in play by phasing them out if targeted by spot or mass removal... that in itself is huge. If we seriously need uncounterability, we can run Trickbind in the sideboard... but Vision Charm is a much, much stronger MD option.

The whole reason I'm running Demise is because it's 1cc and fits better into the curve... I want to be able to cast multiple shits throughout the early game, which is very possible due to the large amount of 1cc spells I'm running. Tombstalker weakens Demise to an extent, but Vision Charms ability to fill the graveyard pretty much negates that.

I really did want to run Counterbalance... until I noticed how lacking the amount of 2cc spells in the deck was. Even with Smother, there is just not enough. The deck is 1cc heavy, which is retarded with CounterTop since Top itself answers 1cc shit. The deck is so tempo driven anyways... if you can simply Thoughtseize or counter what's going on right now, Dreadnought or Tombstalker is almost always going to go the distance before the opponent recovers. Another problem is that Counterbalance never brings you back from behind... it just makes a favorable board position more favorable. I prefer the MD EE's... they answer other Counterbalances, as well as all the other tons of randomess the deck is likely to face.

Last but not least, thank god for alcohol. I've yet to have a sober moment this entire weekend. And this deck is retardly strong. I've yet to explain some of the synergy effects naturally in the deck, but that's because I'm too drunk to actually do so. Expect a much more detailed, informative post from me after the weekend is over.

mackaber

05-25-2008, 10:11 AM

Vision Charm may be weaker than Trickbind in the fact that it is counterable... but it's half the mana cost and has additional broken retarded effects. Vision charm enables turn 2 Tombstalkers... that in itself is far more broken than a turn 2 4/5 Goyf or the fact that Trickbind costs 1U and cannot be responded to. Vision charm also protects Nought/Stalker after they are in play by phasing them out if targeted by spot or mass removal... that in itself is huge. If we seriously need uncounterability, we can run Trickbind in the sideboard... but Vision Charm is a much, much stronger MD option.

Reading is the tech... and particularly hard when drunk, sadly visions charm will not ever protect a Tombstalker. If you find milling four cards from your dec to power ghastly demise a good use of a card you might have a serious drinking problem. I'm of the opinion that with the influx of dreadnoughts in the format smother seems the beter of the two spells atm. The trick with trickbind is that a stifle efect is usually (read in all situations when you do not have a naught in play you want to protect or power out a turn 2 stalker) better than anything visions charm can offer.

I'm currently testing both a version with wastelands and trickbinds as well as a list close to Hanni's both of which are also running bobs and I'm sort of up in the air as to which is beter.

Hanni

05-25-2008, 11:01 AM

Reading is the tech... and particularly hard when drunk, sadly visions charm will not ever protect a Tombstalker.

Right, I read the card wrong. Alcohol does that sometimes. It still doesn't change the fact that the card is extremely strong.

If you find milling four cards from your dec to power ghastly demise a good use of a card you might have a serious drinking problem.

That's not the point of either of the cards. Ghastly Demise is the best 1cc removal option available, whilst being 1cc is important for curve reasons. Vision Charm is amazing because it's 1cc, enables both Nought and Tombstalker (early Stalkers anyway), and protects resolved Noughts. The fact that you can use Vision Charm to fill the graveyard to enable Ghastly Demise, to hit creatures with fat asses, is just an additional benefit.

I'm of the opinion that with the influx of dreadnoughts in the format smother seems the beter of the two spells atm.

If the metagame is infested with Dreadnought decks, then sure. I wasn't aware that this was the case. I'm not convinced that it is, either. If you have alot of them in your metagame, its very easy to replace the Ghastly Demises with Smother. It's really not a big deal.

My metagame is MWS, which does contain Dreadnought decks, but not in large enough volume for me to run Smother. And I'm still running MD EE, don't forget.

The trick with trickbind is that a stifle efect is usually (read in all situations when you do not have a naught in play you want to protect or power out a turn 2 stalker) better than anything visions charm can offer.

Right. But the whole point of the deck, at least the way I play it, is to play Dreadnought or Tombstalker (and win) as early as possible. Vision Charm does this better. It's only 1cc, enabling Noughts (and Stalkers) on turn 2 instead of turn 3, and again, it enables early Tombstalkers where Trickbind does not. If I wasn't running Tombstalker, it is possible that I would have chosen Trickbind instead... but obviously, that's not the case. I also wasn't aware that 'The Stifle Effect' was that powerful, outside of the combo, to require running more than 4 of it. If I was running Wasteland, I can easily see the usefulness of additional Stifle effects. And I guess additional protection from EE and Deed is always nice. But doesn't Vision Charm protect Dreadnought from those anyway?

Oh, and for reference, since my drunkeness clearly prevented me from listing the manabase:

Lands (17)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

mackaber

05-25-2008, 11:17 AM

The LD Plan has the advantage of buying you time when you havent drawn beaters/ combopieces. I'm not sure if this is preferable to smashing face. More testing will provide answers.

FredMaster

05-25-2008, 01:15 PM

The point is that it doesn't buy you time since you still can develop pressure in the same time.

Btw, if the splash was retarded I wouldn't win tournaments with it, I guess.
Remember that Goyf gets rid of removal that could bring down your finisher.

Hanni

05-25-2008, 03:16 PM

Btw, if the splash was retarded I wouldn't win tournaments with it, I guess.
Remember that Goyf gets rid of removal that could bring down your finisher.

So does Tombstalker, except he actually has evasion. Supporting a card choice based on the fact that it baits removal is not impressive. The whole reason I think Goyf is dumb is because everyone else is running Goyf... so you're not really going to be swinging through. Although, in your list, you run 4 Smother... so I suppose he's solid in your list. Plus he fills in the 2cc curve so that you can actually run Counterbalance effectively, which is cool. I still like Tombstalker better as an alternate win condition, though, simply because he has flying.

Also, I wasn't specifically addressing you when I asked why Goyf was being run, I was just addressing the archtype as a whole. Plus I was pretty drunk at the time. So don't think I was attacking you or your decklist. Most of the Dreadnought decks I've played against (on MWS) run Goyf and no removal, and I laugh when they cannot swing past my Goyf (I usually play DAT Thresh)... which obviously isn't the case with your list (you run 4 Smother).

All in all, your list looks solid. And I'm very satisfied with mine... the deck is a freakin beating. Enjoy =]

Windux

05-26-2008, 08:45 AM

I would play a list like this:

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Critter
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker

//Stuff
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 Smother

Sideboard:
2 Life from the Loam
2 Engineered Explosive
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Yixlid Jailer (Metaslot)
2 Metaslots

I found out, playing 19 lands is ok, if you play 8 "Cantrips" (including Top).
I added 1 Ponder instead of playing the 4th Confidant. You don't want him that often, exspecially if you play 2 more 5+ cc Spells.

3 Smother are ok, since you play 4 Goyf, 2 Stalker and 4 Noughts as finisher and (Good) blockers.

The Life in the Sideboard is against Landstill and against LftL-Control Decks (reccuring Wasteland against Glacial Chasm, Manlands, Maze of Ith or Tabernacle) which tries to screw you down.

FredMaster

05-26-2008, 09:07 AM

Thx Windux, I always wondered, if 20 lands was too much. I had multiple "land-only-hands" during the last tournaments which prevented me from cutting lands. With that much finishers one removal spell seems rather worth to be cut. I agree with what you've said about the number of Confidants, as well.
I think I'll give this version a try on MWS and our next tournament (Saturday). Thanks for your opinion.

I wondered which Dredge/Loam choice would be best in sb:
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Pros: Shuts Ichorid down completely. Leaves Loam with Tarmogoyf as their biggest beater and crushes their draw engine.
Cons: Costs 2, where Ichoird might have already brought down some damage and need only 2-3 Ichorids to finish.
GG sucks against Loam.

Yixlid Jailer
Pros: Shuts Ichorid down completely. Stops Loams draw engine.
Cons: Costs 2, against Ichorid bla bla. Doesn't stop Loams Crusher.

Leyline of the Void
Pros: Shuts Ichorid down for real - you can mulligan for it, if necessary. Shuts Loam down as well.
Cons: Needs a Playset in Sb. If drawn later it is unuseful and cc4ish.

Tormod's Crypt
Pros: Is online turn 1. Can wreck Ichorid.
Cons: Doesn't bother Loam too much. I never liked it.

I would pick LotV at the moment, what do you think?

Hanni

05-26-2008, 12:21 PM

I wondered which Dredge/Loam choice would be best in sb:

Extirpate.

Windux

05-26-2008, 12:21 PM

Don't forget, that Wheel of Sun/Moon is (depend on the judge) terrible against CephBreakfast.

If your opponent mill himself for 3, he can rearrange the 3 cards he milled on the bottom of his lib.
If the number of cards in his library is not divide-able (sorry for my english btw ;) ) and the judge rules so, he can stack his library by doing this an amount of times.
Each time he mills his library the second time, one card more of his choisse will be on top.

FredMaster

05-26-2008, 03:19 PM

Extirpate.
Well 3 Extirpates are already set for my sideboard as a good call against for example Landstill anyway. Therefore they don't count :tongue:

mackaber

05-26-2008, 05:14 PM

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp

This manabase is as always too greedy. It could work (I've been running a similar one with 20 lands and 1 less cantrip but it's been too inconsistent) if not for tombstalker, but with tombstalker your really pushing it.

Hanni

05-26-2008, 07:52 PM

I finally broke down and decided to splash green. But not for Tarmogoyf. Basically, I lost 2 individual games because of Enchantments that EE couldn't answer. 1 matchup I lost to Humility, another matchup I lost to Nether Void. In went green, Deed replaced EE, and Krosan Grips went into the Sideboard. The deck has been pretty disgusting ever since.

mackaber

05-27-2008, 04:36 AM

Yeah I'm pretty convinced that adding Green is nescesary just for sb shenaigans (You need grip) and improving EE. But when you start playing green I also don't quite understand why you wouldn't run Goyf over Tombsalker. Yeah I read all your above reasonings Hanni and I agree that a Tombstalker is better on the board than a Goyf, but hey Goyf is just soo much easier to cast, also if you have stalker and your opponent has goyf your likely not going to be attacking anyways unless you also have a naught. I also play smothers so Goyfs and bobs do in fact attack often.

Ch@os

05-27-2008, 06:53 AM

Here my list, works well and no winmore Goyf ;>

lands: (19)

3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Wasteland
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Island

creatures: (12)

4x Meddling Mage
4x Dark Confidant
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells (29)

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind
3x Thoughtseize
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm

Nihil Credo

05-27-2008, 07:12 AM

winmore Goyf
Huh, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Windux

05-27-2008, 07:28 AM

@Chaos: Did you though about playing Smother over StoP, simply for the fact that you can name StoP with Meddling Mage?

I mean it depends on the meta, but in germany, there are many decks with StoP and almost only cc>=3 critters.

That would also give you a more stable manabase, because of the fact that you dont need to fetch Usea and then need to find a Tundra for StoP.
You simply need an Usea for both: Disruption AND Removal.

Ch@os

05-27-2008, 07:29 AM

Huh, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

;> some kind of ironic meaning.

The main plan is dropping a nought, and the playable legacy cardpool is so small, people always playing the same cards, that MM became incredible strong.
In combination with Thoughtseize and good knowledge of decklists hes a bomb.

I dont think that Goyfs are really needed, but sure you can stuff them into 80% of competitive decks.

@Chaos: Did you though about playing Smother over StoP, simply for the fact that you can name StoP with Meddling Mage?

I mean it depends on the meta, but in germany, there are many decks with StoP and almost only cc>=3 critters.

Yes, good idea, but i just like the sword, play nought -> sword -> 12life without playing stifle effects. But i will test smother.

mackaber

05-27-2008, 10:05 AM

I like your list Chaos. Obv it doesn't need goyfs since white can also provide you with disenchant effects. How has 5 stifle effects and 4 noughts been treating you? Seems like you wont be comboing on turn 2 or 3 very often, altough your decs shell semms more geared towards resilience with CB and MM.
One major qualm I have with playing only Naught as your win condition is that extirpate on naughts leaves you with 2/2s as your only winconditions which against most decs will prove problematic, maybe some tombstalkers out of the board?

Ch@os

05-27-2008, 10:15 AM

Yes, the Sb is a key factor in this list, but its not ready yet.
A second wincondition like Grunt would fit in this list.
And some answers to humility/moat, also a second Trickbind.

But i have to watch the meta over here to build a really competitive Sideboard. Keep on working ...

FredMaster

05-27-2008, 10:44 AM

If you meant the meta in Hamburg (Spieleland) then don't bother...
I've watched the meta for quite a while now. I wrote down almost every deck that hit play during the last 20 tournaments and the only thing that I found out is that there is always at least one Dragonstompy and Aggro Loam each. Yeah, that's it. This meta is so insanely unpredictable.
You might even stumble across Doomsday and stuff...

If you didn't mean that one, I am sorry :smile:

Ch@os

05-27-2008, 11:07 AM

Jeah Hamburg is pretty random ;> next tournament will be Dülmen or the next bigger Spieleland-tournament.

Hanni

05-28-2008, 02:43 AM

I finally came around to the idea, shortly after it was too late, that U/W/b Fish would have been so strong if it utilized Portent instead of Serum Visions and ran a full playset of Duress. Fish is still mildly competitive but it's not really strong enough to make any consistent Top 8's anymore. It might turn out to be pretty disgusting in a Dreadnought shell though...

U/W/b Dreadmage

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (8)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells (35)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Extirpate
4 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle

Portent/Thoughtseize + Mage and CounterTop in the same deck is just rediculous. It may not be amazing against every matchup... but the only deck I've ever played that got me more 'Player Lost' was Hulk Flash. If you don't want your opponent doing anything, this is the deck for you.

The thing I like about this decklist, while being more vulnerable than the DreadStalker list, is that there are so many potent 2 card combos. Turn 1, turn 2 plays are abdundant here. Turn 1 Thoughtseize (or Portent), turn 2 Mage. Turn 1 Top, turn 2 Counterbalance. Then obviously we have Nought + Stifle/Trickbind.

The sideboard is just randomly thrown together so I'm not going to validate any of those card choices right now.

Ch@os

05-28-2008, 07:02 AM

Hm... so why Portent and not Ponder?
And 3x Daze? Also you need another CC2 card for CB only 12xCC2 spells are to less. Whats about dark Confidant? Fits into the color and has a big synergy with SDT and the nought/stifle search plan.

Illissius

05-28-2008, 07:16 AM

Hm... so why Portent and not Ponder?

So he can make sure the opponent doesn't draw anything useful while the Dreadnought kills them.

Hanni

05-28-2008, 12:50 PM

Hm... so why Portent and not Ponder?

Because if your cast Portent on your opponent, you can screw their topdecks so they don't draw anything relevant for a turn or two. Then, you can cast Meddling Mage on whichever card was finally relevant, and they still cannot play it. This is especially strong around the early midgame, where both your hand and the opponent's hand will likely be gas'd (the only actual card advantage this deck gains is through Counterbalance).

If I wasn't running Meddling Mage I'd obviously opt for Ponder. Portent has strong synergy with Meddling Mage and I want to abuse the power of Meddling Mage as much as possible.

And 3x Daze?

Well, considering they are often dead late game, I usually only run 3 in most decks. If I had leftover space I'd run 4, but fitting in everything I wanted to was really tight. As it is, I wish I could fit a 3rd Trickbind.

If you look at Daze as being FoW #7 (early game) rather than than being Daze #3, it's solid. 7 early counterspells and 4 early discard spells cover me just fine for the early game... and we all know how bad Daze is lategame.

Also you need another CC2 card for CB only 12xCC2 spells are to less. Whats about dark Confidant? Fits into the color and has a big synergy with SDT and the nought/stifle search plan.

More than 12 would definitely be better but 12 has been working out just fine. You only need to get 1 2cc spell stuck on top... after that, you can pretty much keep it up there for as long as you need to with Top if you don't crack any fetches. Especially considering that Daze, Trickbind, and Counterbalance are all very situational in use, it tends to work out just fine. Brainstorm also allows me to put useless Dazes, etc that get stuck in hand back on top of library.

I've played multiple games so far where cc2 with Counterbalance was important and I've yet to run into any serious issues.

My problem with Confidant goes back to the same argument I made for it before. Even if I am running Top to minimize life loss, and even if my opponent has inadequate removal to kill him (like Shriekmaw), he's still very slow. I am almost never going to actually attack with him, so he basically just sits there to draw me cards. So he does nothing the turn he comes down, the next turn he draws me 1 extra card, which is basically just replacing the Confidant I played and giving me card parity and not card advantage. So I'm not actually seeing card advantage from him until 2 turns after I've played him (3 turns if you're counting the turn he was played)... and it's only +1 CA.

I'm highly against Dark Confidant in decks that do not support him as aggro. In that case, it's almost always better to run Phyrexian Arena instead, since it's alot harder for the opponent to remove and the 1 life loss per turn is usually less than the life lost from Confidant, on average. As a sideboard option, Phyrexian Arena definitely sounds strong vs control and aggro/control decks.

mackaber

05-28-2008, 02:01 PM

My problem with Confidant goes back to the same argument I made for it before. Even if I am running Top to minimize life loss, and even if my opponent has inadequate removal to kill him (like Shriekmaw), he's still very slow. I am almost never going to actually attack with him, so he basically just sits there to draw me cards. So he does nothing the turn he comes down, the next turn he draws me 1 extra card, which is basically just replacing the Confidant I played and giving me card parity and not card advantage. So I'm not actually seeing card advantage from him until 2 turns after I've played him (3 turns if you're counting the turn he was played)... and it's only +1 CA.

I'm highly against Dark Confidant in decks that do not support him as aggro. In that case, it's almost always better to run Phyrexian Arena instead, since it's alot harder for the opponent to remove and the 1 life loss per turn is usually less than the life lost from Confidant, on average. As a sideboard option, Phyrexian Arena definitely sounds strong vs control and aggro/control decks.

I don't think I'm ever going to understand your stance on Bob (neither do I want to) for me he's just the most powerful card drawing engine in the format. I find my bobs heading into the red zone very often (and 2 or 3 hits will usually be enough to make one naught swing lethal), but more often trading with removal or permission spells that could handle the friggin naught I'll play the following turn (How for crying out loud is rearanging the top 3 cards of an opponents dec ever supposed to be better with about 8 fetchlands in every dec?). That combined with the fact that an unanswered bob usually just wins games purely by overwhelming oponents with CA just makes it the perfect fit.

Ch@os

05-28-2008, 02:08 PM

Yes in Hanni's argument Bob is alway bad, but i think that this deck really need draw. The Portend plan is a good one but a litte bit inconsistend, a SDT, Brainstorm, Fetchland ... will wreck the hole strategie.

kabal

06-02-2008, 07:31 PM

Thoughts on the below build?

U/B/w StifleNaught (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=23784) by Fujii Hidekazu

Artifacts
3 Aether Vial
2 Engineered Explosives

Artifact Creatures
2 Epochrasite
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Creatures
3 Dark Confidant

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
3 Swords To Plowshares
4 Vision Charm

Sorceries
3 Duress

Basic Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins

mackaber

06-03-2008, 03:36 AM

BreathWeapon

06-08-2008, 11:18 AM

Giving this a bump,

MD

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Meddling Mage

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor

1 Oblivion Ring

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

SB

4 Jotun Grunt
1 Hoof Prints of the Stag
4 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle

A friend and I have been on a roll with this deck recently, and we feel it's the most efficient design for Dreadnought.dec we've tested. Enlightened Tutor either gives the deck a consistent, 4 turn clock or sets up the Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top lock while eliminating the need for MD removal slot(s).

The mana base and SB still need some work, but Enlightened Tutor -> Blood Moon has been such a beating, and Jotun Grunt and Hoof Prints of the Stag have been reasonable alternate win conditions.

Willoe

06-08-2008, 11:55 AM

Looks fair. Do you really want Daze? Wouldn't Spell Snare be better? Does this deck really want to play spells every turn? I mean, in some way, you're nowhere as aggressive as threshold, so I can't really see daze fitting here. Maybe it's just me, so please answer :smile:

Mental

06-08-2008, 11:58 AM

What's Meddling Mage in the MB for? Goyf?

No_Life_No_Future

06-08-2008, 12:58 PM

@kabal: I'm about 100 percent convinced the above build does not need aether vial. My reasoniing for this is quite simple, opponents never counter dreadnought they always counter stifle or visions charm. Considering your running only 9 creatures it's pretty marginal anyways. If I were to run white I think I'd try Meddling mages.

I'm pretty sure you are forgetting that vial has a second purpose! If you have 2 dreadnaughts you can vial 1 in response to the other coming into play netting you a 12/12 trampler.

BreathWeapon

06-08-2008, 01:25 PM

Daze is a "Time Walk" against Pernicious Deed, Counterspell and Counterbalance, combined with Wasteland, Stifle and Vision Charm it's not unusual for a turn 2 Dreadnought to get double "Time Walked" 4TW against Control.

Spellsnare and Thought Seize aren't "good cards" in Dreadnought shells, because you want to use your first turn to either resolve Brainstorm, Enlightened Tutor or Sensei's Divining Top to set up for your second turn or keep Stifle -> Fetchland open while Force of Will and Daze prevent him from blowing you out of the water.

Meddling Mage's job is 1) be a 2cc target for Counterbalance 2) name Xcc spells outside of the deck's curve 3) name Krosan Grip and 4) name spot removal. That said, Meddling Mage is "filler," the original MD was U/w/b for MD Dark Confidants and SB Tombstalkers, but we switches to U/w/r for Pyroclasm and Blood Moon, so the Meddling Mages had to move from the SB to the MD.

Either splash color is good tho', we opted for /r because Goblins packing 4 Tin Street and 4 Weirding were just a pain in the ass, but the 3rd splash color is debatable.

The emphasis of the deck is on Enlightened Tutor, it's just a busted card when you get to set up Balance/Top or turn 2 Dreadnoughts.

Willoe

06-08-2008, 01:57 PM

Sounds fair. I can't beat those arguments even though I've never liked Daze that much.

Meddling Mage is seriously the most fishy cards the fish deck. Seriously, even though it's nowhere as good as it once was (even though more cards entered the card pool namely tarmogoyf) it's still a beating. Fetchland Tendrils might be able to remove it, but it can buy you enough time while virtually timewalking an opponent from going off or just casting a certain spell.

If I could, I'd build this deck for it really rocks xD

BreathWeapon

06-08-2008, 02:11 PM

The problem with Meddling Mage isn't what it does, but how fast it does it. If I'm not casting Enlightened Tutor turn one and Dreadnought + Stifle/Charm on turn 2, then I'm casting Sensei's Divining Top on turn one and Counterbalance on turn two so I can resolve a protected Dreadnought later. Meddling Mage doesn't really let you do that, because you can only turn off 1 of your opponent's cards to protect your Dreadnought, and Meddling Mage probably can't disrupt your opponent's game plan as much as Counterbalance would.

The deck is hyper aggressive, so Meddling Mage just feels a turn too slow.

FoolofaTook

06-08-2008, 03:18 PM

@kabal: I'm about 100 percent convinced the above build does not need aether vial. My reasoniing for this is quite simple, opponents never counter dreadnought they always counter stifle or visions charm. Considering your running only 9 creatures it's pretty marginal anyways. If I were to run white I think I'd try Meddling mages.

It may not need Aether Vial however people are starting to counter the dreadnought because they are screwed if you Trickbind instead of charm or stifle and you also have a hard counter in hand.

BreathWeapon

06-08-2008, 05:54 PM

It may not need Aether Vial however people are starting to counter the dreadnought because they are screwed if you Trickbind instead of charm or stifle and you also have a hard counter in hand.

Even tho' I don't run them, countering the Dreadnought is still a mistake if you're playing with Academy Ruins or Volrath's Stronghold in your deck. Most people just aren't running Trickbind in the MD, let alone the SB.

thefreakaccident

06-23-2008, 02:51 AM

Here is my most recent list for UWb dreaded fish, if anyone is interested...

With counterbalance:

creatures//12
4 dark confidant
4 meddling mage
4 phyrexian dreadnought

lands//17
4 tundra
1 plains
3 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 island
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta

spells//31
4 stifle
2 trickbind
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
4 daze
4 force of will
3 enlightened tutor
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

Tutoring for CB/dreadnought turn one to set up CB/dreadnought turn two is rediculous... mage chants removal thay could be playing, confidant is just a broken draw engine, this deck has sooo many must answers, they cannot answer them all, especially since you can tutor for some of them...

Here is the list without CB/top... you guys may dislike it, but I have found it is actually better, as its' good matchups generally stay intact, but your worse MUs get better (this looks a lot like my opening post... which is quite humerous)...

Anyways:

lands//17
1 plains
1 scrubland
4 tundra
3 underground sea
1 island
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta

creatures//14
4 meddling mage
4 dark confidant
4 phyrexian dreadnought
2 serra's avengar

spells//29
3 aether vial
4 force of will
4 stifle
2 vision charm
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 enlightened tutor

Basically, you have only 9 ways to trick it into play on the second turn... the vials are good, but it clutters up your draws, so you only want 3... the avengars allow the deck to play like old fashioned fish if it has to, they could be replaced, along with a ponder for thoughtseize, but I wouldn't recommend it, as you want to have a plan B, and although attacking with a bunch of weenies isn't the strongest of secondary game strategies, it is still decent...

Especially since you can gain a disruption piece/draw engine at the endstep of your opponents' turn.

I often find that mage just ends up naming grip post board (literally like 7/10 times if you go to a tournament)... Still, there aren't many decks that can survive a consistant turn 12/12 trampler with counterbackup (you run about as much as threshold... without CB, but this should come online before CB becomes an issue...

Rood

06-23-2008, 07:21 PM

Your list doesn't have any outs against the troublesome permanent for this MU in Chalice. Seeing as you run 3-4 ET Main I'd recommend running one EE in your maindeck to give you some outs.

lunar_eternal_blue

08-04-2008, 11:48 AM

I'm kind of going in a different direction with this, but I want to see how this works. I play Dreadstill right now, and I think it will be cool to switch back and forth between this and Dreadstill to keep the opponents in my meta guessing.

4 Dreadnought
3 Meddling Mage
4 Mother of Runes

4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
2 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Tundra
1 Plains
5 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Pithing Needle
1 Serenity
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Propaganda

The idea is to make sure Dreadnought is protected. Mother of Runes is great because they either have to waste removal on her or if she sticks then they have to 2 for 1 themselves just to get rid of Dreadnought. The reason for the swords in the sideboard is because most creatures (like Tarmogoyf) won't be much of a threat compared to Dreadnought. They are in there for creatures like Meddling Mage, Confidant, etc. Plus Engineered Explosives can help with removal as well.

The tutors are for consistent dreadnoughts or finding E. Explosives; Chalice and Runed Halo are problems, so I like having access to them. I am concerned about Trinisphere, as my only answer for it pre-board is to counter it. Or I guess I could phase it out at the end of their turn, then play dreadnought, but still thats three cards to get one creature out.

Also, the reason for 6 stifle effects plus 3 vision charm is because vision charm also protects dreadnought, and stifles are amazing for fetchlands. I don't want to not stifle a fetchland just because I need it for dreadnought, but since dreadnought is pretty much essential in this build, I want to have plenty of ways to get him into play.

My Dreadstill list focuses on having ways to win other than dreadnought, where as this list focuses on making dreadnought unstoppable, so please don't tell me that I need an alternate way to win besides dreadnought. Also I realize that there is no black for Confidant, but I want to stick with Uw. I don't know if this needs card drawing, but if it does, what should I use? Jace might work but I'm not sure. Also, I have no idea what to take out (it was hard enough for me not to mainboard swords).

Joon

08-12-2008, 06:43 AM

As I worked with Ubg Dreadstill I developed this bitch as a hybrid between Black Thrash and Dreadstill:

4 Tropical
4 USea
3 Strand
3 Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Naught
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
1 Stalker

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Snare
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

Sideboard isn't developed yet, but I want definately some numbers of the following cards:

Extirpate
Grip
maybe Jailer/BEB/Needle/EE/Predator

This isn't tested, but it looks damn sexy on paper. Only a few thoughts to start a discussion: Should we play Smother or other removal? Is the lonely Stalker needed? Isn't Stifle and Seize in the same deck kinda contraproductive?

Let me hear your thoughts and if you've worked on similiar projects.

whienot

08-25-2008, 08:30 PM

Joon, here's (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19211) a Ugb version that took 3rd out of 38.

For those that don't want the list now.....

4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Extirpate
4 Force of Will
4 Smother
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Counterbalance

1 Bayou
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

57 cards (I imagine at least 2 of the missing cards are Divining Tops)

Sideboard:
4 Yixlid Jailer
3 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize
3 Mind Harness
2 Pithing Needle

Maindeck Extirpate seems interesting and the single Spell Snare looks a little out of place. I'd rather have 3x Thoughtsieze in those spots.

Is no Plague in the side a good choice? I suppose if your meta is without tribal aggro.

FredMaster

08-26-2008, 08:59 AM

I did that finish actually and Joon should be pretty familiar with that list :)
And yes the 3 missing cards were Tops.

Maindeck Extirpate was just AMAZING. This and a random second-turn force-protected Nought won me the match against UWb Cunningstill.
3 Extirpate looked liked too much though. And since I like to have some extra countermagic and Spell Snare is cc1 - which is perfect for the deck - I just threw 1 in randomly.

Mainboard TS isn't good when you'd also like to stifle on turn 1 and don't know your opponent's deck yet.

I don't think I'd run Plagues even if I had known that there were some tribals.
Those decks have to handle Dreadnought with their critters... Dreadnought is like a new Plague/Humility Hybrid.

I faced an experienced Goblin Player in last round and won 2:1 in games.
I didn't even draw my hate really. Mind Harness was disappointing the whole tournament. I'd run Blasts again.

PS: Couldn't we establish this "ThreshThreshThreshThresh"-stuff for Noughts too? I hate to read "naught".

Joon

08-26-2008, 10:31 AM

I absolutely hate that manabase with a Swamp, a Bayou and only 3 Wastelands. I mean, wasting one of the lands your opponent controls is random, but doing that twice might be gamebreaking. But as FredMaster's going good with that deck and I don't I'd better get stuffed :tongue:

Extirpate was and is always T3H PR0N in UB-based Aggro-Control Shells. It gives you at least a small fighting chance against Dredge (together with not stifled noughts to remove Bridges) and Loam preboard, and in the Aggro-Control MU you win always the Counterwar after extirpating Snare/Force, or you win the NoughtProtection cause of pating the Removal.
Not playing Pate main in a deck with Wastes, Forces, Smother/Seize and Balance (+ nice stuff from the Board) is gay.

Frank The Tank

09-14-2008, 04:51 PM

After finally giving up on my Fish deck i heard that Dread is the next step. Here is what I came up with.

Lands: 18
Polluted Delta - 4
Flooded Strand - 4
Tundra - 4
Underground Sea - 3
Plains - 1
Island - 2

Creatures: 16
Mother of Runes - 4
Dark Confidant - 4
Meddling Mage - 4
Dreadnaught - 4

Spells: 20
Stifle - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Force of Will - 4
Daze - 3
Enlightened Tutor - 3
Vision Charm / Trickbind - 2

Enchantments: 3
Counterbalance - 3

Artifacts: 3
Top - 3

Sideboard: 15
Vindicate - 3
Extirpate - 3
Pithing Needle - 3
Engineered Explosives - 3
Crucible of Worlds - 3

I am still not sure on if I want vision charm or trickbind, how to include Stronghold (my mana base), and I am a little iffy on my sideboard. Vindicate is in there for enchantments and artifacts as I am not running green and thus no Kgrips, Extirpate is for combo, Needle is for deed etc, EE for Chalice of the Void, and Crucible is for Staxxs (metagame)

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

thefreakaccident

10-02-2008, 12:11 AM

HUGE necro...

Anyways, I have been fooling around with a little list that I have been liking.

It is very much based off of the old hadley 5c threshold builds that were running around some time ago.

Anyways, here is the list:

lands//18
4 city of brass
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1 tropical island
1 volcanic island

creatures//10
3 phyrexian dreadnought
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf

spells//32
4 force of will
3 daze
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 enlightened tutor
2 counterbalance
2 sensei's divining top
2 oblivion ring/engineered explosives
4 stifle
1 trickbind
4 thoughtseize

sideboard//
2 red elemental blast
3 pyroclasm
4 extirpate
2 pithing needle
2 krosan grip
2 blue elemental blast

It has been testing pretty solidly... although, IK have not put it against the gauntlet.

The deck has a lot of pain, but it hasn't been of major consequence yet, as I usually either:

a. get a huge advantage over my oponent via the life loss
b. lock them out/kill them before it even matters.

The 2/2 splis for the CB/tops looks a little strange, but the tutors help a lot with that.

I decided that oblivion ring would be the optimal card choice for an E.Tutor target, as it is very versatile, and fills the 3cc role for CB (less of a concern, but at least this is an option).

Anyways, any thoughts would be kindly appreciated.