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Pinder
12-29-2007, 03:50 PM
edit -The list has changed enough that an edit to the primer is warranted. The newest list is below


Inspired by the latest truth bomb (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8075) from everyone's favorite baritone, I've decided to throw this list up here a little earlier than I was going to. I've been tuning it for the past week or so, but I still have minimal testing results due to lack of time and a proper gauntlet. If anyone wants to test this (or test this with me) over MWS, let me know. For now I'll post the list and the reasoning behind the card choices.

The List:

//Lands (25)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
2 Maze of Ith


//Creatures (14)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
3 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Darkheart Sliver

//Spells (21)
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Intuition
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize (could possibly be Duress, if the lifeloss is an issue).
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Life from the Loam

//Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
4 Propaganda
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Gigapede

Card Choices

Manabase: This is pretty self explanatory, duals, fetches, etc. The Wasteland is there for Intuition and LftL shenanigans. The cycling lands are there for the same reason, because I hear the LftL + cycling lands = one savage draw engine. Plus, Intuition stacks consisting of LftL/Cycling Land/<Insert Random land here> always get you your land.

Maze of Ith: Not included in the manabase section because it doesn't produce mana. Helps against large, single threats like Goyf, Eternal Dragon, Exalted Angel, etc while also helping against a Sutured Ghoul from Ichorid or Breakfast. Also can help against Aggro by untapping their biggest guy, or Piledriver, or whatever. All around a solid include.

Tarmogoyf: This isn't just an 'OMG this deck has green play Tarmogoyf lol' like everyone usually thinks. I mean, I would probably run it no matter what anyway, but if you take another gander at the list up yonder you'll notice that it runs 6 different card types all by itself. Plus, between Intuition, LftL shenanigans, and Gigapede, the deck is very good at putting whatever card types it wants in the yard. That, and the deck has a creature that sacs itself, an enchantment that sacs itself, and fetchlands and cycling lands and wasteland. Nearly everything has a built in way to send itself to the bin. It's not that uncommon for midgame Goyfs to come down as 5/6 or 6/7 or for 1G. The synergy is just fantastic.

Shriekmaw: Everyone's favorite Bird Lizard is great here both as early removal and late game beats if you need. Also, Genesis + Shriekmaw = removal whenever you want it. You clear the table and they drop a dude? No problem, 5 mana during your turn nukes the guy. Over and over. Plus, he's a Terror that dodges Counterbalance.

Gigapede: It's a discard outlet that you can Intuition for, and a beater? I pretty much stole this straight from Truffle Shuffle. He's fantastic. Especially great against StP, which makes it hard to recur other beaters.

Eternal Witness: The deck recurs stuff from the yard. Eternal Witness is a regrowth on a body that you can recur with Genesis. Plus Intuitioning for Witness/Witness/<insert card here> gets you that card.

Genesis: This guy makes all the Magic possible. For a card that you never want to see in your hand ever, he sure does a hell of a lot. Typically if he's not in the yard already, your Intuitions should always grab him. Genesis/Gigapede/<Tarmogoyf or Shreikmaw> is a pretty standard setup, depending on whether or not you need removal or beats.

Pernicious Deed: It's a control deck. It has green and black in it.
......Yeah.

Intuition: The deck is geared to have favorable Intuition stacks. Intuition is you instant speed Demonic Tutor here, setting up cards for the yard and in play.

Need beats? Genesis/Gigapede/Tarmogoyf
Need Spot Removal? Genesis/Gigapede/Shreikmaw
Need a card? Witness/Witness/<CARDNAME> (Alternately <CARDNAME>/<CARDNAME>/<CARDNAME>)
Need a savage draw engine? Cycling Land/Cycling Land/LftL
Need Wasteland lock? Cycling Land/LftL/Wasteland

And all of these are assuming that none of these cards are already in your hand/yard. Feel free to mix and match as much as you want.

Sensei's Divining Top: Used to be Brainstorm, but this one sticks around and provides lasting card quality via Fetchlands and other cycling effects. Also great with LftL, to see if you want to dredge your top 3 or not.

Thoughtseize: It's a good card. The lifeloss can be sort of relevant, but the fact that it can nab creatures against Aggro and Aggro/Control is usually enough of a bonus to make up for that.

Life from the Loam: Eh, I've pretty much detailed above how it synergizes with the rest of the deck. You get the idea.

Nihil Credo
12-29-2007, 04:24 PM
How is the curve treating you? I've been playing the shit out of a practically identical deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8024), except with cheap dudes (BoPs, Mongoose, Werebear) where you have Garruk Wildspeaker instead. I'm sure your control matchup improves greatly, but how do you deal with fast starts (from any deck)?

Pinder
12-29-2007, 04:34 PM
How is the curve treating you? I've been playing the shit out of a practically identical deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8024), except with cheap dudes (BoPs, Mongoose, Werebear) where you have Garruk Wildspeaker instead. I'm sure your control matchup improves greatly, but how do you deal with fast starts (from any deck)?

Eep. I didn't realize you had a similar list already. Eh, they're different enough. I'll give you a cookie if I win.

As far as fast decks, you will probably take some (or a lot) of damage before you stabilize, but that's why I included 4 Deed and 3 EE. Shreikmaw can provide spot removal for really fat guys as well, but in the early game you really want to hit these and just wipe the shit out of the table in order to make it into the late game. The deck is slow, there's no two ways about it, but I need more testing to see if it can reliably survive into the late game, where it really thrives. So far it's been handling Control and Aggro-Control pretty nicely, but I have almost no testing against dedicated Aggro or Combo (although, like I said, your combo matchup is just abysmal anyway). Feel free to proxy it up and get back to me. Hopefully I'll have testing against a full gauntlet by the end of next week.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-29-2007, 04:37 PM
Not to be mean, but this also closely resembles what I called TarmoTog (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6230).

While there are differences in the final decklists (both between this and TarmoTog and this and Solpugid's River Rock), I'd like to point out that Solpugid and I have already essentially tested this configuration (minus Garruk), and decided to stick to something else.

Again, I don't want to be mean: I'm ecstatic that you've made something so similar, but I think that it's really more appropriate to post in one of those two threads instead.

With regards to the deck, some problems that I had when TarmoTog was of a similar configuration:

Mana. Cycle-lands are cool, but they're really hard on the manabase. Especially with two colourless lands. Recurring EE is cool, but ultimately winds up being just a cute trick; I found it much better to recur creatures (via Stronghold and Genesis) and use cantrips for card draw. If you want to stick with what you have, Sensei's Divining Top is probably better than Brainstorm, because it will circumvent mana problems, be re-usable, and can be recurred with Ruins. You could also consider Crime/Punishment rather than Explosives, since Needle can't stop it, and it hits at zero for the same amount of mana and can be ramped up higher much more easily. It's also harder to Counterbalance.

Improving the combo matchup is hard to do without a greater reliance on blue; sticking with black, your only real clock is Tarmogoyf, and that's a problem. In TarmoTog, I more or less fixed that by relying on Force of Will and a largely anti-combo sideboard (Stifle, Extirpate, Duress). A deck using Empty the Warrens shouldn't be hard to deal with (we have a lot of board sweepers, after all); what's harder to handle are Tendrils of Agony and an early Charbelcher. Post-board, your combo matchup isn't bad; the problem is that it's post-board. That's a sacrifice we have to make, though, I think; besides, the majority of decks you'll face at a tournament won't be fast combo. :wink:


By the way, props on a better name. :smile:

Aggro_zombies
12-29-2007, 05:12 PM
Ah, so you put it up. I was going to say in the other thread that 4 Deed and 3 EE seems like overkill, especially when you can recur the EE. Propaganda doesn't help you out much in the early game but Elephant Grass will put some fat brakes on just about any fast deck, long enough for you to find a Deed and detonate it. Also, with 24 land and Life from the Loam, I think you may be interested in using Mox Diamond as an accelerator.

scrumdogg
12-29-2007, 05:50 PM
Mana. Cycle-lands are cool, but they're really hard on the manabase. Especially with two colourless lands. Recurring EE is cool, but ultimately winds up being just a cute trick; I found it much better to recur creatures (via Stronghold and Genesis) and use cantrips for card draw. If you want to stick with what you have, Sensei's Divining Top is probably better than Brainstorm, because it will circumvent mana problems, be re-usable, and can be recurred with Ruins. You could also consider Crime/Punishment rather than Explosives, since Needle can't stop it, and it hits at zero for the same amount of mana and can be ramped up higher much more easily. It's also harder to Counterbalance.

Improving the combo matchup is hard to do without a greater reliance on blue; sticking with black, your only real clock is Tarmogoyf, and that's a problem. In TarmoTog, I more or less fixed that by relying on Force of Will and a largely anti-combo sideboard (Stifle, Extirpate, Duress). A deck using Empty the Warrens shouldn't be hard to deal with (we have a lot of board sweepers, after all); what's harder to handle are Tendrils of Agony and an early Charbelcher. Post-board, your combo matchup isn't bad; the problem is that it's post-board. That's a sacrifice we have to make, though, I think; besides, the majority of decks you'll face at a tournament won't be fast combo. :wink:


By the way, props on a better name. :smile:

Agreed on the first part, although the deck looks like a blast to play. Being down Game 1 to combo sucks in a general sense & sucks quite specifically at a major tournament since you can't afford many overall match losses. You are going to see a couple of combo decks somewhere along the way and having to hope you see A) less than 2 & B) you beat everything else seems a dangerous approach.

Lastly, agree on the name...but it has been taken for 6-7 years now :cool: GWR Survival deck that saw a decent amount of success back in the day (including 3-4 GPT Philly victories).

dontbiteitholmes
12-29-2007, 05:50 PM
I'd also like to add that I've been working on a deck that is "similar yet different" (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7936) and will be re-posting it in this forum soon pending changes I'm currently making.

Peter_Rotten
12-29-2007, 06:00 PM
Let the judges repeat a general announcement:


On behalf of everyone who will read these decks for the next month, please, please do not flood the threads with "Oh jackass lolz i wuz totally gonna post this 2morrow" 's and "Damn you and your mother for beating me to this!" 's.

Seriously people, if you have a deck submit it.

That is all.

scrumdogg
12-29-2007, 06:10 PM
I'm simply staking a claim to the name :cool: although Pinder is so cool I may have to give to him by default....

Pinder
12-29-2007, 06:12 PM
I'm simply staking a claim to the name :cool: although Pinder is so cool I may have to give to him by default....

Nah, actually when I thought of the name it was much more toolbox-y, it could very likely be called something else now. I'm typically pretty horrible at naming decks, though, so if anyone has a better name, I'm all ears.

scrumdogg
12-29-2007, 06:25 PM
Nah, actually when I thought of the name it was much more toolbox-y, it could very likely be called something else now. I'm typically pretty horrible at naming decks, though, so if anyone has a better name, I'm all ears.

That is THE name for a toolbox deck (hence why we named the SotF deck MacGuyver) :cool: How about we share the name? Come up with something that uses MacGuyver + something else? Psychic MacGuyver or something....while the combo matchup gets some attention as well...

Zach Tartell
12-29-2007, 06:30 PM
I've been playing the shit out of a practically identical deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8024), except with cheap dudes (BoPs, Mongoose, Werebear) where you have Garruk Wildspeaker instead.


Not to be mean, but this also closely resembles what I called TarmoTog (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6230).


RE: Any more whining (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8075)

Moving onwardly:

Solid deck so far, Broseph Stalin. I have a couple suggestions, which will both allow me to use the list function and possibly improve your deck.


I could see your lack of permission providing problems (Savage alliteration!). I realize that the count is too low for Force, and Daze is really pretty terrible without any other backup. Your lack of enough blue duals makes Counterbalance/Top unlikely to happen, too. Which sucks, since you have a pretty nice curve for it.
Volrath's Stronghold? Just to dodge needle, or something. Maybe it's not good enough to make the cut. I just have a japanese one, so I'm kind of Jonesing to try it out.
Wonder actually seems really good. The problem is that you run like between 9.5-13 creatures (I'm not counting the Gigapedes as creatures so much, since they're really just Intuition gimicks, and Genesis doesn't count, either. But Garruk counts as at least one guy, too. Math sucks.), so he might suck a little. I'd add Mongeese, maybe. To at least trade with Mongese. It'd deal with Lackey.
Thinking of Lackey reminds me of removal. Ghastly Demises? I think that'd be pretty savage. On account of Whitness recurring, and Loaming goodness. Just a thought. The only problem is Tombstalker, or Dark Confidant.
Not running Confidant? I guess without top or Ponder it's kind of hit or miss.
Turns out you run Tropical Island. Reading FTW.
I love me some Stifle, 'specially when your opponent doesn't expect it. In the board, maybe? It occurs to me that you didn't post one.
If my time from goldfishing Aluren has taught me anything, it's that Intuition for 3 Cabal Therapy is pretty badass. I don't know if you run enough creatures for it to be worth your time, though.
I guess 3x EE and 4x PD is enough removal. Jesus, that's alot of removal. Maybe add a Tormod's Crypt as a single, or a Pithing Needle would add to the amazingness of the Academy Ruins toolbox. But then you might get too toolbox-y.
This list has kind of gotten to epic porportions.


In short, this is a pretty freaking awesome deck. I reckon it needs a little tinkering, and a board to go with it, but you've got an excellent start.


I'm a dick - Shreikmaw is way better than Ghastly Demise. Disrgard the bullets regarding removal.

Pinder
12-29-2007, 06:52 PM
Zach, your list has bullet points, so I feel like I should address it first:



Solid deck so far, Broseph Stalin. I have a couple suggestions, which will both allow me to use the list function and possibly improve your deck.


Broseph Stalin. That's catchy. Deckname catchy? It also shortens to BS, so bonus there.



I could see your lack of permission providing problems (Savage alliteration!). I realize that the count is too low for Force, and Daze is really pretty terrible without any other backup. Your lack of enough blue duals makes Counterbalance/Top unlikely to happen, too. Which sucks, since you have a pretty nice curve for it.


Eh, CounterTop + Deed = not so much synergy. If I thought Counterbalance would ever stick around and/or was recurrable, I'd try it. Tops alone might be solid, though.



Volrath's Stronghold? Just to dodge needle, or something. Maybe it's not good enough to make the cut. I just have a japanese one, so I'm kind of Jonesing to try it out.


Feel free to test, but the thing I like about Genesis is that he works from the yard, and doesn't stunt your draws. He also dodges Needle. It's a triggered ability.



Wonder actually seems really good. The problem is that you run like between 9.5-13 creatures (I'm not counting the Gigapedes as creatures so much, since they're really just Intuition gimicks, and Genesis doesn't count, either. But Garruk counts as at least one guy, too. Math sucks.), so he might suck a little. I'd add Mongeese, maybe. To at least trade with Mongese. It'd deal with Lackey.


/agree about Wonder. Flying is super, but the list is tight and I don't run a ton of creatures to take advantage of it.

Mongeese seems like an interesting idea. You certainly hit Thresh fast. EE is great at dealing with opposing Mongeese already, though. He's cheap fat, so he couldn't be all bad.



Thinking of Lackey reminds me of removal. Ghastly Demises? I think that'd be pretty savage. On account of Whitness recurring, and Loaming goodness. Just a thought. The only problem is Tombstalker, or Dark Confidant.


Well, I sort of had Shreikmaw for that, but that really only lets you answer Lackey on the play. This seems to be the deck's main weakness, is how slow it stabilizes. I like A_Z's idea about Elephant Grass, though, to stall for long enough to wipe the board via Deed/EE



Not running Confidant? I guess without top or Ponder it's kind of hit or miss.


Number of cards in my deck with CMC more than three: 9. Maybe with Top, but this deck doesn't really have trouble finding things.



Turns out you run Tropical Island. Reading FTW.


I noticed that too.



I love me some Stifle, 'specially when your opponent doesn't expect it. In the board, maybe? It occurs to me that you didn't post one.


I too, love some Stifle. It could certainly go in the board against Storm combo.



If my time from goldfishing Aluren has taught me anything, it's that Intuition for 3 Cabal Therapy is pretty badass. I don't know if you run enough creatures for it to be worth your time, though.


God, I know! I keep having these dreams of EOT Intuition for 3 Therapies, followed next turn by 4 therapies in a row. While sexy, I usually don't have a ton of creatures to do that with. Of course, with Garruk online, he essentially has -1: Play Therapy. That might not be so bad.



I guess 3x EE and 4x PD is enough removal. Jesus, that's alot of removal. Maybe add a Tormod's Crypt as a single, or a Pithing Needle would add to the amazingness of the Academy Ruins toolbox. But then you might get too toolbox-y.


Earlier versions of the list had 2 Trinket Mage, and 1 each of Needle, Crypt, and Chalice. They were way too slow to do anything useful, though. Maybe Needle as an intuition target with Ruins, but I know for a fact that sort of toolbox is way too slow to do anything.



In short, this is a pretty freaking awesome deck. I reckon it needs a little tinkering, and a board to go with it, but you've got an excellent start.


Well thanks.



I'm a dick - Shreikmaw is way better than Ghastly Demise. Disrgard the bullets regarding removal.


Okay, you must have edited your post right when I clicked the quote button,
because this totally wasn't there when I did.

Overall I'm thinking that the list needs better ways to stabilize sooner or have/answer early guys. At this point, I think the weakest slot is Thoughtseize, so I'll try fiddling around with Elephant Grass/Mongeese/Other stuff in those slots and get back to you. Also, I could see shaving off a Garruk, because 3 might be a little overkill considering you can only have 1 on the table at a time anyway.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-29-2007, 07:28 PM
[list]
I could see your lack of permission providing problems (Savage alliteration!). I realize that the count is too low for Force, and Daze is really pretty terrible without any other backup. Your lack of enough blue duals makes Counterbalance/Top unlikely to happen, too. Which sucks, since you have a pretty nice curve for it.


It's my considered opinion that Counterbalance/Top doesn't really work, even when you increase your dependence on blue. UU is rough, but the main reason not to be running the combo is that it only improves matchups that are already good (notably aggro-control). Against combo, it certainly works--provided your opponent doesn't combo off before you can set it up. I feel that these slots are better occupied by Stifle and Force of Will.



Volrath's Stronghold? Just to dodge needle, or something. Maybe it's not good enough to make the cut. I just have a japanese one, so I'm kind of Jonesing to try it out.


As Pinder pointed out, Needle can't hit Genesis. Stronghold also eats a draw. I've really come to admire Stronghold, however, since it replaces Genesis in a pinch (you can save it with LftL, and it allows you to recur beyond Genesis-hate like Extirpate/Crypt). I advise running it in conjunction with Genesis rather than over it; that also allows you to hardcast Genesis without fear, if it's necessary (which it sometimes is).


Wonder actually seems really good. The problem is that you run like between 9.5-13 creatures (I'm not counting the Gigapedes as creatures so much, since they're really just Intuition gimicks, and Genesis doesn't count, either. But Garruk counts as at least one guy, too. Math sucks.), so he might suck a little. I'd add Mongeese, maybe. To at least trade with Mongese. It'd deal with Lackey.

Mongeese and Wonder are amazing. Wonder makes you win, and Mongeese are just so amazing when they fly. With Wonder, Gigapede becomes more than just a gimick--it's a primary game-breaker. Flying Mongeese also allow you to consistently beat Lands.dec, particularly if you're packing Extirpate somewhere.


Thinking of Lackey reminds me of removal. Ghastly Demises? I think that'd be pretty savage. On account of Whitness recurring, and Loaming goodness. Just a thought. The only problem is Tombstalker, or Dark Confidant.


Lackey isn't all that important. I definitely agree that Nimble Mongoose is a must, and that it should usually block a Lackey. Should you not answer a turn-one Lackey immediately, however, it's no biggie--provided you can put some creature on the board the next turn. It doesn't help, but it's hardly fatal. Just stall until you can reset the board in your favour, or until you have some really scary fliers.

A resolved Dark Confidant opposite you will usually lose your opponent the game. Besides, a lot of the time they won't attack into you--especially if you're packing Nimble Mongoose.



Not running Confidant? I guess without top or Ponder it's kind of hit or miss.


Tried it. It was horrible. You need creatures that aren't afraid to attack, and Confidant seldom wants to swing. Besides that, the life loss is significant even for the deck as it's posted--too much costs 3 and 4 mana. If you start adding FoW, Confidant will kill you. Top or a cantrip engine works just as well, especially since Genesis, Witness, LftL and Intuition basically make your graveyard another hand.



If my time from goldfishing Aluren has taught me anything, it's that Intuition for 3 Cabal Therapy is pretty badass. I don't know if you run enough creatures for it to be worth your time, though.

I tried that too, once. A single MD Therapy is better because it allows you to look for other things with Intuition and still get the Therapy. Unless you want to stay away from FoW, Stifle, and company, in which case Therapy looks a lot better MD than either Thoughtseize or Duress.



I guess 3x EE and 4x PD is enough removal. Jesus, that's alot of removal. Maybe add a Tormod's Crypt as a single, or a Pithing Needle would add to the amazingness of the Academy Ruins toolbox. But then you might get too toolbox-y.


Agreed on Academy; running an Academy toolbox borders dangerously close on being just a cool thing. Academy dilutes an already weak manabase, eats a draw, and distracts you from your main plan, which is to go Intuition--->Win With Big Flying Things. I strongly advise against Academy Ruins, and advise you to concentrate on the rest of the deck instead. Cephalid Coliseum, for one, seems like a better use of Ruins' slot. It allows you to dig for whatever you need (usually Wonder), dredge, discard (very important), and it's recurrable.



EDIT:

For reference, here's what TarmoTog looks like at the moment:

Lands: 18
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
3 Polluted delta
3 Windswept heath
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures: 20
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

Other spells: 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of will
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious deed
2 Life from the loam
1 Darkblast

SB:

4 Extirpate
4 Stifle
4 Duress
3 Crime/Punishment


----


That's one direction the deck can take. The other would be to abandom blue a little more, save perhaps for Stifle, and that could look like this:

Lands: 19

4 Bayou
2 Tropical island
1 Underground Sea
3 Polluted delta
3 Windswept heath
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures: 19
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Eternal witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Wonder


Other spells: 22
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Intuition
4 Pernicious deed
2 Life from the loam
1 Crime/Punishment/Engineered Explosives

SB:

4 Extirpate
4 Stifle
4 Duress
2 Crime/Punishment
1 Glacial Chasm/Wasteland/Academy Ruins

Pinder
12-29-2007, 07:56 PM
Based on the discussion, I think I'm going to try -1 Garruk, +1 Wonder, -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Mongoose. Also, Although I still like the EE/Ruins thing, I might try getting rid of the Ruins for a colored land and dropping the EE's for something else and focusing on the early game. Maybe 3x Birds or Mox Diamond for faster Deeds and beats? Mox doesn't have terribly great synergy with Garruk, but I think the super syngery with LftL would make up for it. I'll fiddle with those slots, because IMO those are the most questionable/malleable.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-29-2007, 08:25 PM
Based on the discussion, I think I'm going to try -1 Garruk, +1 Wonder, -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Mongoose. Also, Although I still like the EE/Ruins thing, I might try getting rid of the Ruins for a colored land and dropping the EE's for something else and focusing on the early game. Maybe 3x Birds or Mox Diamond for faster Deeds and beats? Mox doesn't have terribly great synergy with Garruk, but I think the super syngery with LftL would make up for it. I'll fiddle with those slots, because IMO those are the most questionable/malleable.

I would opt for Mox Diamond over the Birds, simply because those birds can't really do much other than tap for mana (since we have no equipment), and the Mox pumps Tarmogoyf. Here's a list of the Diamond's pros and cons, since I originally had it in a messy sentence:

Pros:

-Perhaps putting out an earlier Garruk is worth it.
-Pumps Tarmogoyf.
-Faster Threshold.
-Stabilizes mana/allows for a larger EE--or the Crime part of Crime/Punishment, which I still think is better here than EE--especially if Academy is taken out.

Cons:


-Early acceleration isn't all that necessary, especially if you're going to run Mongoose.
-It won't survive a reset.


It could be worth it; we'll see how it does in testing, but it's probably basically just an open slot. Glacial Chasm FTW. :wink:

Pinder
12-29-2007, 08:45 PM
-Stabilizes mana/allows for a larger EE--or the Crime part of Crime/Punishment, which I still think is better here than EE--especially if Academy is taken out.


My main qualm with Crime/Punishment was that it was harder to recur than EE, but if we're taking Ruins out then it really doesn't matter. Also, I was talking about taking the EEs out entirely, putting in Mongeese, and just riding Deed to mop the floor. Of course, we could just straight up replace the Thoughtseizes with Mongoose, then switch the Ruins for some other land (Stronghold?) and switch EE for Crime/Punishment. I think I'll try that.

Zach Tartell
12-29-2007, 08:49 PM
Based on the discussion, I think I'm going to try -1 Garruk, +1 Wonder, -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Mongoose. Also, Although I still like the EE/Ruins thing, I might try getting rid of the Ruins for a colored land and dropping the EE's for something else and focusing on the early game. Maybe 3x Birds or Mox Diamond for faster Deeds and beats? Mox doesn't have terribly great synergy with Garruk, but I think the super syngery with LftL would make up for it. I'll fiddle with those slots, because IMO those are the most questionable/malleable.

Keep Thoughtseize. Keep Thoughtseize! That works against any deck. And no "What about lands" weakness - you know that doesn't count. I'd drop the EE package for the 4 Geese, leaving you with 19 effective land (18 if you don't count Wasteland). That, coupled with LFTL, Intuition, and Brainstorm, will probably be enough. I mean, I'm no statistician, but I reckon that you wouldn't run into mana-screw problems.

Also, "Keep yo' Garruks, Broseph!" BTW, that was a try for a better nickname than "Jimmy the Hammer." I'm not sure why I even tried, though, on account of Chuck Norris would probably change his middle name from "Danger" to "Jimmy the Hammer" if somebody told him. That, or he might roundhouse kick the suggester into oblivion. Anyway, Garruk is really good. Like, wicked good. Like, "People need to start thinking about planeswalkers in control decks" good.

I like Wonder, but I feel like it might fall within the danger of Cool Things zone. You folks test. I'll delligate and touch some boobs. Everyone report back in the morning. Break!

Pinder
12-29-2007, 09:01 PM
Keep Thoughtseize. Keep Thoughtseize! That works against any deck. And no "What about lands" weakness - you know that doesn't count. I'd drop the EE package for the 4 Geese, leaving you with 19 effective land (18 if you don't count Wasteland). That, coupled with LFTL, Intuition, and Brainstorm, will probably be enough. I mean, I'm no statistician, but I reckon that you wouldn't run into mana-screw problems.


I'll try it both ways. I'm wary of ditching the EE package without another form of mass removal, though. Maybe the cheap beats in the form of Mongoose make up for it, though.



Also, "Keep yo' Garruks, Broseph!" BTW, that was a try for a better nickname than "Jimmy the Hammer." I'm not sure why I even tried, though, on account of Chuck Norris would probably change his middle name from "Danger" to "Jimmy the Hammer" if somebody told him. That, or he might roundhouse kick the suggester into oblivion.


I've always kind of liked 'Jimmy the Hammer' (or alternately Jimmy 'The Hammer' Hammer), but Broseph works just fine too. And yeah, Chuck should stick with Danger, on account of he's better at roundhouses than I am. And yeah, Garruk is crazy. I still think two could be a good number, though. Betwen all your shuffling and tutoing and whatnot, you can make sure to see him when you need to.



I like Wonder, but I feel like it might fall within the danger of Cool Things zone. You folks test. I'll delligate and touch some boobs. Everyone report back in the morning. Break!

Man, I thought I was going to do the boob touching. Maybe next time.

Lemuria
12-29-2007, 09:15 PM
Intuition for 3 Cabal Therapy is the nuts, and since your deck keeps recurring creatures, it became just retarded. I think I would run over thoughtseize, since I can't think of anything else to cut.

Solpugid
12-29-2007, 10:11 PM
Don't run maindeck therapy without BoP. As good as intuition-->3 therapy is, without the ability to reliably (and relatively painlessly) flash it back, it does work so well. And I agree with the sentiments above: don't drop thoughtseize. It's your only real answer to a fast combo that doesn't result in tokens.

The list you posted in your opening post is different enough from both Tarmotog and River Rock that I don't see a problem. However (and this is kinda big) if you start running cabal therapy, wonder, volrath's stronghold, and nimble mongoose your deck's originality will be hit by a bus. That would basically turn it into River Rock. Add FoW and ponder instead of therapy and thoughtseize? Tarmotog.

To actually be productive here, squeeze a wonder in somewhere. Could even be in place of an EE, but flying Gigs are 10x better than land-based Gigs. And maybe cut a few of the cycling lands for cephalid coliseum, which in my testing has performed much better.

Pinder
12-29-2007, 10:54 PM
The list you posted in your opening post is different enough from both Tarmotog and River Rock that I don't see a problem. However (and this is kinda big) if you start running cabal therapy, wonder, volrath's stronghold, and nimble mongoose your deck's originality will be hit by a bus. That would basically turn it into River Rock. Add FoW and ponder instead of therapy and thoughtseize? Tarmotog.


At this point I care more about making the deck the best it can be. If I lose a few points for originality in exchange for increased viability, I'm cool with that. I came up with that list and the idea completely independent of you and Goas (it actually started out as a control deck with a Belcher finish, lol), and if it turns out that work they've already done on similar lists and ideas serves to improve the deck, that much the better. Maybe it's not as new as I thought, but I definitely want to make is as good as possible.

And yeah, I'm putting a Wonder in somewhere. I just don't know where yet.

Solpugid
12-30-2007, 12:00 AM
I came up with that list and the idea completely independent of Nihil and Goas

Please don't think I'm accusing you of stealing ideas. That was never my intention, and it would be majorly jumping to conclusions to assume that's what you did. The issue merely comes up because this is a contest judging completely new decks, which yours would not be if those changes were made.

Finally, I want to point out (admittedly for personal gain) that the link Nihil gave you was to a thread (and deck) created by me. I don't believe Nihil has ever even posted his version of the deck on The Source.

Anyway, to summarize: it sucks that this discussion has to come up, because you have some legitimately good ideas. They just may not be uniquely yours.

Aggro_zombies
12-30-2007, 12:22 AM
Please don't think I'm accusing you of stealing ideas. That was never my intention, and it would be majorly jumping to conclusions to assume that's what you did. The issue merely comes up because this is a contest judging completely new decks, which yours would not be if those changes were made.

Finally, I want to point out (admittedly for personal gain) that the link Nihil gave you was to a thread (and deck) created by me. I don't believe Nihil has ever even posted his version of the deck on The Source.

Anyway, to summarize: it sucks that this discussion has to come up, because you have some legitimately good ideas. They just may not be uniquely yours.
Is it even possible to make an entirely new deck? Outside of some wacky new combo, just about every (playable) deck that could be made in this format resembles something that's cropped up somewhere else at some point in time. The contest may have been more aptly named "Create a Good Port of an Old Deck."

Solpugid
12-30-2007, 12:24 AM
Is it even possible to make an entirely new deck?

Point well taken.

Pinder
12-30-2007, 02:34 AM
Please don't think I'm accusing you of stealing ideas. That was never my intention, and it would be majorly jumping to conclusions to assume that's what you did. The issue merely comes up because this is a contest judging completely new decks, which yours would not be if those changes were made.


I understand, and it's a point well made.



Finally, I want to point out (admittedly for personal gain) that the link Nihil gave you was to a thread (and deck) created by me. I don't believe Nihil has ever even posted his version of the deck on The Source.


My apologies. I thought that since Nihil posted the link, it must have been his. I mistook "playing the shit out of"
for "totally created". May bad.



Anyway, to summarize: it sucks that this discussion has to come up, because you have some legitimately good ideas. They just may not be uniquely yours.

I think of it as a confirmation of the fact that they're good, because other people came to the same conclusions at separate times in separate circumstances. I'm not going to worry about it too much.

Lego
12-30-2007, 06:10 PM
Incidentally, Team Slay & Lego made a very, very close deck completely independently recently. This was one of the paths of evolution for the deck, but no worries, as we decided to go a different direction. Still, I really like this idea, and we ended up at very similar places. Then I did stuff like Coffers/Profane Command that my team hated, so we cut Intuition and moved on.

Seriously though, I'm really, really surprised at how closely the decks turned out. Seems great minds think alike :smile: kudos!! Some thoughts on yours:


Eh, CounterTop + Deed = not so much synergy. If I thought Counterbalance would ever stick around and/or was recurrable, I'd try it. Tops alone might be solid, though.

From some testing experience, you're right: Counterbalance does not belong here. On the other hand, Top does. Immediately. Get that shit in here. It'll single handedly win you entire games. We also played 8 fetches, but still, Top is hot. Test it :)

Good luck with the deck! I think it's really strong, even if we went a different direction. Our list should [hopefully] be up soon for comparison.

BeeblesofLife
12-30-2007, 10:23 PM
SO HOT!!!!!
Like Charlie's Angels hot...
But one big question...How does stuff like LotV and Crypt affect your game plan??? I can see where they would matter a bit but on the other hand not matter at all.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-30-2007, 10:49 PM
SO HOT!!!!!
Like Charlie's Angels hot...
But one big question...How does stuff like LotV and Crypt affect your game plan??? I can see where they would matter a bit but on the other hand not matter at all.

Crypt shouldn't be a big deal at all; the only annoying thing is if it nabs Genesis/Wonder, and sometimes Gigapede. Volrath's stronghold really helps here. Besides, it gives Tarmogoyf an artifact.

As for the Leyline, it's also not a huge deal since you can rely on your opponent's graveyard to pump Tarmogoyf until you have enough mana to blow it with a Deed and win. If worst comes to worst, you can even hardcast Genesis if you have to.


The bottom line is that on their own, neither is too threatening. Crypt is actually probably worst, simply because it takes away all of your hard work, whereas Leyline needs to be there from the start. They are obstacles, however, and you can definitely meet your match beyond them. This has seldom happened to me, however, and I've been playing my version for months now. By and large, they're just small hurdles that force you to play a different, more cautious gameplan.

b4r0n
12-30-2007, 10:52 PM
As Lego already said, we were working on something pretty similar, but your list looks really strong. Definitely try out Tops though. They're mad synergistic with the rest of the deck (it never dies to EE or Deed unless you want it to, you can get it back whenever you want with Ruins, it dredges back Loam then goes on top after the dredge, and it gives you additional information about whether to dredge or not).

The only problem that I've had in testing with this list is the fact that the deck tends to stabilize at a pretty low life total. Against burn-based aggro or Goblins, this can be a major problem. Would Spike Feeder be a good option to find with Intuition and recur with Genesis? Any thoughts on this?

Also, have you thought about a sideboard at all? I've been playing around with your list, with a sideboard of:

4 Duress
4 Extirpate
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip

Duress slows down fast combo like TES or Belcher, and helps against control. Extirpate is for graveyard based strategies like Ichorid, Breakfast, or Loam. Grips are for the hate that people inevitably bring in, and also deal with Needles, Survivals, or Counterbalance/Top. Blue Blasts are kinda random, and may not be good, but seem good against Goblins and decks with burn, since they give you a bit of trouble.

Pinder
12-31-2007, 12:12 AM
The only problem that I've had in testing with this list is the fact that the deck tends to stabilize at a pretty low life total. Against burn-based aggro or Goblins, this can be a major problem. Would Spike Feeder be a good option to find with Intuition and recur with Genesis? Any thoughts on this?


This is definitely an issue that needs a least a little attention. Usually I stabilize in the single digits (especially with all the damage I take from fetches and thoughtseize anyway). Spike Feeder was originally in an earlier list, but ended up getting taken out to make room for something else. I'm going to try and find a way to fit him back in, though, because he helps you fight aggro and burn and lets you recoup life after you've stabilized. Another added bonus is that you can move the +1/+1 counters around to make your Tarmogoyfs win against their Tarmogoyfs. A single counter means that your Goyfs can always kill theirs in combat. This might not be as relevant as the life gain, but it's always a nice bonus.



Also, have you thought about a sideboard at all? I've been playing around with your list, with a sideboard of:

4 Duress
4 Extirpate
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip

Duress slows down fast combo like TES or Belcher, and helps against control. Extirpate is for graveyard based strategies like Ichorid, Breakfast, or Loam. Grips are for the hate that people inevitably bring in, and also deal with Needles, Survivals, or Counterbalance/Top. Blue Blasts are kinda random, and may not be good, but seem good against Goblins and decks with burn, since they give you a bit of trouble.

I thought about a SB plan a little, but it was mostly an effort to not punt the combo match games 2 and 3. Grip is definitely a good idea, but I need more testing outside of goldfishing and a match here and there to get a feel for what I need to answer/worry about from the field.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-31-2007, 01:30 AM
Why run Grip when you've got Deed and either EE or Punishment to destroy offending enchantments and artifacts? Seems like a waste of space to me; split second isn't worth it, in my opinion. Sure, you can hit a Crypt before it pops; on the other hand, Crypt isn't that much of a threat. Combo, on the other hand, is a significant problem that I think most of the SB needs to be devoted to.


As for life, I think that Thoughtseize really should be either Therapy or Duress. Grabbing a creature is OK, but you have recurring removal and recurring sweepers to smack creatures--not to mention that your creatures are often pretty damn scary in their own right. The real need for that disruption is against combo, and Therapy and Duress are both--in my opinion--better calls in that department.



Using Feeder to pump Goyf is pretty cool; I hadn't thought of that. The cost (in terms of mana) required to recur him might prove prohibitive, however. The other options would be Spore Frog and Glacial Chasm, really. Personally, I've been tinkering with Glacial Chasm (because Spore Frog only stops combat damage) with mixed results. I'm not sure if it's just a pretty flash or a bang with substance yet, but I'm not hanging any hopes on it.

Pinder
12-31-2007, 01:44 AM
Using Feeder to pump Goyf is pretty cool; I hadn't thought of that. The cost (in terms of mana) required to recur him might prove prohibitive, however. The other options would be Spore Frog and Glacial Chasm, really. Personally, I've been tinkering with Glacial Chasm (because Spore Frog only stops combat damage) with mixed results. I'm not sure if it's just a pretty flash or a bang with substance yet, but I'm not hanging any hopes on it.

Fog frog is cute and all, but not really that hard to get around. A swords at the end of your turn will either get rid of it or force you to sac it. Glacial Chasm seems nice with Loam, however. Although without some way to play more than one land per turn, recurring it continually will eat your lands.

Overall I've found the Mongoose to be less than stellar in testing. They never seem to get big fast enough, and by the time you can drop them as 3/3's for :g:, you probably have enough mana to just drop Goyf as a regular 4/5 or 5/6 (no EE means Goyfs are slightly smaller, too). A friend of mine suggested Maze of Ith in those slots, which I think is what I'm going to try next. They're recurrable with Loam, free, uncounterable, and they act as infinite blockers.

Another idea I had was to cut one of the cycling lands (you don't need more than 3, and I find that they clog your opening hand sometimes), to put the Ruins back in, and switch the Mongoose out for 3x EE and 1x Crime/Punishment (just in case Deed and EE can't get the job done for some reason). This would put artifacts back in the deck for Goyf, as well.

freakish777
12-31-2007, 10:22 AM
3 EE and 4 Deed? I think you can safely cut one of each to find room for 2 Therapies and then make room for 1 more Therapy (1 Thoughtseize probably).

Seriously, the following play is basically retarded:

EOT Intuition for trip Therapy, untap play Therapy, play Witness grabbing Intuition back, replay Therapy. Next turn Intuition for Genesis, Witness, Garruk.

Also, its not like, ya know, Therapy is a bad card on its own (when you draw it).

Therapies + Witness + Genesis is pretty rediculous since you basically get to Witness as many times as you have Therapies in your bin.

Drop a Gigapede for the 3rd Witness. Witness > Gigapede.



EDIT:

Additionally, Intuition for something like Therapy, Genesis, Witness actually, ya know, doesn't require you to blow another card to get Genesis into your bin when they give you him, you pay 5 mana to Therapy, but it gets the job done better than having to have a Shriekmaw in your hand). Loaming them into your bin should make you happy as well, speaking of which, may I suggest a one of Mishra's factory? It allows you to go Intuition for Loam, Cycling Land, Factory for both a blocker (against small creatures preferably, obviously if you're looking at Goyfs you want the Shriekmaws) + card advantage engine.

SB Ideas

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wispmare
1 Spike Feeder
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Meddling Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares

Pinder
12-31-2007, 11:32 AM
SB Ideas

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wispmare
1 Spike Feeder
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Meddling Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares

So, the sideboard plan is to splash white in games 2 and 3? Interesting, but I'm worried it would fall into the 'danger of cool things' category. Postboard Mage would be nice against combo, though.

As for your other points, I don't want to go below 4 Deed, but I could stand to cut an EE (maybe cut 2 EE and throw in a Crime/Punishment) and some other stuff for some therapies. Enough people have suggested them that it's worth a try, at least.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-31-2007, 02:20 PM
Fog frog is cute and all, but not really that hard to get around. A swords at the end of your turn will either get rid of it or force you to sac it. Glacial Chasm seems nice with Loam, however. Although without some way to play more than one land per turn, recurring it continually will eat your lands.


Like I said, I don't think Frog is the answer we're looking for. Likewise, Chasm has its own problems. It may well just be Feeder or nothing at all.



Overall I've found the Mongoose to be less than stellar in testing. They never seem to get big fast enough, and by the time you can drop them as 3/3's for :g:, you probably have enough mana to just drop Goyf as a regular 4/5 or 5/6 (no EE means Goyfs are slightly smaller, too). A friend of mine suggested Maze of Ith in those slots, which I think is what I'm going to try next. They're recurrable with Loam, free, uncounterable, and they act as infinite blockers.

Seriously? To each his own, I suppose. The main reason why I like Mongoose is because it's your easiest recursion target with Genesis, and they're extremely difficult to deal with--meaning that when they fly, you're set. You're right, they don't get to being 3/3 quite as fast as in Threshold--part of the reason for that is probably that you don't have the cantrip engine that I do. For me, Mongoose usually gets to 3/3 about a turn after Threshold, and the beatdown that ensues is just amazing. They and Gigapede basically allow you to win against 43lands--well, with Extirpate's help, anyway. It's entirely possible that without cantrips, they're less good for you. That's ultimately up to you to decide. As far as Maze goes, I haven't a clue--I tried them in my build for a time, and they were good, but ultimately I found that they mostly just improved already good matchups and that a beater would be better. Eating a land drop in a mana-hungry deck is tough; but your version also has a bit more mana, which may make it feasible. Let me know how it goes.


Another idea I had was to cut one of the cycling lands (you don't need more than 3, and I find that they clog your opening hand sometimes), to put the Ruins back in, and switch the Mongoose out for 3x EE and 1x Crime/Punishment (just in case Deed and EE can't get the job done for some reason). This would put artifacts back in the deck for Goyf, as well.

I agree about cutting the cycling lands--I don't like them because they slow your mana drops significantly. Have you tried a single Cephalid Coliseum in their place? One thing you may find with Ruins is that the colourless lands become problematic; Stronghold, Wasteland, and Ruins is a fair few lands that don't contribute much to a colour-hungry deck. On the other hand, your version looks a little less colour hungry than my own, so it may work out for you--the one hitch I see is that they don't contribute at all to EE.






Drop a Gigapede for the 3rd Witness. Witness > Gigapede.

I strongly disagree. Without Mongrel or Psychatog, you basically have no discard outlets other than Therapy--which is better used against your opponent than yourself. If you Intuition for Genesis or Wonder and two other cards, guess what's going into your hand? The one card you can't put in the graveyard but would love to have there. Witness is cool and useful, but I don't think it should be anything more than a secondary or tertiary strategy/option. Besides, if you cut out Gigapede entirely, you've deprived yourself of one of your most significant and versatile win conditions. Gigapede is horrendously difficult for most decks to deal with effectively, and it generates massive advantage. Plus, as we said, it allows you to pitch Genesis or Wonder in a pinch, which is an essential move--even more so if you don't play Mongrel or Tog.






Additionally, Intuition for something like Therapy, Genesis, Witness actually, ya know, doesn't require you to blow another card to get Genesis into your bin when they give you him, you pay 5 mana to Therapy, but it gets the job done better than having to have a Shriekmaw in your hand).


Maybe I don't understand what you're saying, but I fail to see how this scenario is any better than with a Gigapede. You're fetching Therapy to get Genesis in the yard, which will cost you a creature in play. Unless you suggest using Witness to get the Therapy and then put Genesis in the yard, which seems highly inefficient. Especially when for the five mana you could get Genesis in the yard and have a huge untargetable beater in play--also note that if you're given Genesis, your plan (as I've interpreted it--maybe I misunderstood), you're screwed unless you can hardcast him (which will cost two turns and a Therapy/removal rather than one).



Loaming them into your bin should make you happy as well, speaking of which, may I suggest a one of Mishra's factory? It allows you to go Intuition for Loam, Cycling Land, Factory for both a blocker (against small creatures preferably, obviously if you're looking at Goyfs you want the Shriekmaws) + card advantage engine.


It's a nice idea, but I suspect you'll find yourself running into coloured mana problems--especially if you keep the cycling lands around. You'd probably do just as well to run Glacial Chasm or Maze of Ith, and I'm not even convinced about those. At the very least, it demands tinkering with the manabase--which, as it currently stands, probably isn't such a bad thing--but it also means that you need to know the directions in which you want to take the deck (cycling lands/Terravore sort-of-ish, Ruins and a small artifact toolbox, plain old mana, etc.)

bladewing019
12-31-2007, 05:30 PM
Maybe I don't understand what you're saying, but I fail to see how this scenario is any better than with a Gigapede. You're fetching Therapy to get Genesis in the yard, which will cost you a creature in play. Unless you suggest using Witness to get the Therapy and then put Genesis in the yard, which seems highly inefficient. Especially when for the five mana you could get Genesis in the yard and have a huge untargetable beater in play--also note that if you're given Genesis, your plan (as I've interpreted it--maybe I misunderstood), you're screwed unless you can hardcast him (which will cost two turns and a Therapy/removal rather than one).


I think his plan if he ended up with genesis in his hand was to immediately hardcast it (which he should be able to do since Intuition was played at opponents EoT). Which lets you disrupt your opponent at the same time, unlike the Gigapede plan. And if they put witness into your hand you immediately have a sac outlet for it after you play it.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-31-2007, 06:03 PM
I think his plan if he ended up with genesis in his hand was to immediately hardcast it (which he should be able to do since Intuition was played at opponents EoT). Which lets you disrupt your opponent at the same time, unlike the Gigapede plan. And if they put witness into your hand you immediately have a sac outlet for it after you play it.

Makes sense, but that's still inefficient. Even if you have the mana to hardcast Genesis immediately after intuiting for it, you're left with the problem of wasting a whole turn's worth of mana casting a creature you're going to sacrifice anyway (and that maybe you HAVE to sacrifice--often, you need Genesis to come online ASAP); or else you can Therapy yourself, but that's a waste of a Therapy and card disadvantage that Gigapede won't generate--not to mention that it becomes vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares. With a singleton Gigapede, there's no reason why you can't do what you described above--you just have everything covered, just in case. Besides, by fetching out Gigapede, you don't need to cast it--you can keep that mana open to cast other things. With no discard outlet beyond Cabal Therapy, however, you're forced to hardcast Genesis when you need him, which looks to me like a longer delay and/or a loss of tempo.


As for Witness, I think it will only rarely prove beneficial for an opponent to put it in your hand over Wonder or Genesis if you have no discard outlets. I wouldn't count on it. :tongue:

freakish777
01-01-2008, 03:57 PM
I never suggested dropping both Gigapedes, just that 2 is likely not optimal. Eternal Witness is card you, ya know, actually want to draw where as Gigapede you usually don't want to draw (it's entirely situational, there's not many times you actually want to play out Gigapede as your win condition instead of riding the Goyf beatdown train, speaking of ineffeciencies).

Witness does rediculous stuff on its own without Intuition, Gigapede never does anything rediculous, even with Intuition. It's basically a necessary evil that you have to run because not running it leaves you without discard outlets. The Intuition for Genesis, Witness, Therapy plan is when you have a lot of mana to work with and are fairly confident your opponent doesn't have Swords. They give you Genesis, you get a possible discard effect against your opponent (as opposed to no effect from Giga), next turn you bring back Witness and get your Intuition back for even more busted plays. It also is the play you make when you draw your one of Gigapede.

Don't get me wrong, I think Gigapede is a good card, I just don't think he's good enough most of the time.

Pinder
01-01-2008, 04:28 PM
Don't get me wrong, I think Gigapede is a good card, I just don't think he's good enough most of the time.

Your reasoning is pretty solid. I could probably go down to just the one Gigapede, especially since it always comes back (short of Extirpate shenanigans or something). That's the way it was originally, but I added another when I made the deck less toolboxy. Here's a rough idea of the a list based on all the suggestions:

// Lands
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
3 [U] Bayou
4 [TSP] Forest (1)
2 [MR] Island (4)
2 [R] Swamp (1)
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [JU] Wonder
3 [LOR] Shriekmaw
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ON] Gigapede
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
2 [LOR] Garruk Wildspeaker
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TE] Intuition
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize

I added the Therapies because the synergy with the deck (especially Witness) is fairly obvious, and combined with Thoughtseize it helps you not punt game 1 to combo. Hard to tell if you have enough creatures to make it truly useful, but it's worth a shot. Witness is still at 2, which might be a mistake, but I opted for Therapies over the 3rd Witness for now. 3 Maze of Ith is to make sure you see it early enough to matter and so you can Intuition for it. Although, I might cut the 3rd Maze for the 3rd Witness, and go for Maze/Maze/LftL stacks instead.

edit - Also, I've taken to calling the deck Bayou Billy. I don't know if that will stick, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Zach Tartell
01-01-2008, 05:25 PM
I think this is a pretty strong deck, but I'd like a sideboard so I could test it online.

Goaswerfraiejen
01-01-2008, 05:39 PM
I never suggested dropping both Gigapedes, just that 2 is likely not optimal.


Oh, sorry. I thought there was only one and you were saying to cut it. Cutting him out entirely is a huge mistake; running more han one is indeed unnecessary.

Pinder
01-01-2008, 05:42 PM
I think this is a pretty strong deck, but I'd like a sideboard so I could test it online.

Up to you man. Feel free to make one and let me know how it goes. If I can finally get a stable testing partner I can play enough preboard games to know what needs shoring up in the postboard ones. Near as I can tell, you could probably have Chalice to switch out for Deed against Combo, but after that there's any number of things. Grip is nice, I guess, and Needle is always a default include. You might run Crime/Punishment as a board option if you suspect Needles on Deed, as well.

Pinder
01-02-2008, 01:29 AM
Double post for bump. If this is a problem, let me know.

So I got in a little more testing with list above, this time against UGw Thresh. For reference, it was a CounterTop list with maindeck EE. Some notes:


PROTIP: Deed is still a good card.
Maze of Ith was stellar in helping stabilize here. I think I'm in love. 3 was a great number, because I saw them often and early enough to be useful, but not often enough that it ate all my land drops. Plus it's the perfect number for Intuition. Doesn't work on Mongoose, though. That was kind of annoying.
Mystic Enforcer > Shriekmaw :frown:. Fortunately, Mystic Enforcer < Maze of Ith :smile:. Seriously, the card is fantastic.
Goyf is super duper as a 7/8 for two mana. Super duper.
Wonder is great. Still.
Cabal Therapy is nice and all, but it wasn't really relevant or gamebreaking ever.
Never resolved a Garruk, so I can't say much as to how he performs in this matchup. He always tried really hard to counter it, for what it's worth.


In 3 games, I was 3-0 versus white Thresh. The matchup could always use more testing, but for now I think it's safe to say that it's a positive one.
Game 1 I stabilized at 3, which was much too low IMO, but in the second game I stabilized at 15. I'm not sure which is more indicative, at this point, but I'm hoping it's the latter.

edit - And thanks for the name change. If anyone has a better one, though, I'm not terribly attached to Bayou Billy.

OMG - Though (presumably) an obscure reference to a really old (and bad) Nintendo game, I loved it! Btw, you're welcome. :) - Bardo

Solpugid
01-02-2008, 08:48 AM
@ Pinder

I think your feeling on therapy is about right. It gets a lot better with the addition of a few extra cheap creatures, like mongoose, but duress is a fine alternative for your deck.

Speaking from my testing with River Rock, which probably has similar matchup percentages to your own, Threshold is definitely favored but not hugely. Honestly, the worst card they pack is daze since this deck taps out so much for game-winning plays. Waiting too long to cast intuition or deed will just make you lose.

To be perfectly honest, I thought you were going to test maze of ith and hate it. I never gave it consideration in this type of deck. Do you feel that it's more of a metagame slot, or is it really good enough vs. the field to run regularly? I'm, at the very least, intrigued.

Illissius
01-02-2008, 09:01 AM
Maze of Ith was stellar in helping stabilize here. I think I'm in love. 3 was a great number, because I saw them often and early enough to be useful, but not often enough that it ate all my land drops. Plus it's the perfect number for Intuition. Doesn't work on Mongoose, though. That was kind of annoying.

Yes! Finally someone else discovers this card. The other card it's not so great against is Wasteland.

EDIT -- To be honest though, I was envisioning it in a deck which only cares about removing attackers, like Landstill, not one which also cares about blockers, like this one.

diffy
01-02-2008, 11:27 AM
I threw this together and tested it a little... from first testings it runs pretty smoothly, but I have to agree that some sort of mana acceleration would be nice. Werebear would be the best I guess because of being fat in the mid-lategame.

Here's what I tested:



/// Mainboard (60 cards)
// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp

// Creatures
2 Eternal Witness
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
3 Shriekmaw
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Wonder

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
2 Life from the Loam
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Dures
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate


The list looks like the connection between the list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=193045&postcount=40) on the previous page by Pinder and the one in the opening post.

I don't see the need for 3 Maze of Ith as it doesn't produce mana and such. Sure you can Intuition for 3x Maze of Ith, but you could just as well Intuition for Life from the Loam/Maze of Ith/<Random Land> which wouldn't change a lot but cost 2 more mana.
I still like the 1 Engineered Explosvies as the soft lock is awesome together with Academy Ruins (Intuition for Life from the Loam/Engineered Explosives/Academy Ruins) and as it is an out to Pithing Needle on Pernicious Deed.
I don't like many cycling lands as I find myself to not Intuition for them often enough. 2 plus a Cephalid Coliseum should always suffice as you'd want to Intuition for 2x Tranquil Thicket/Life from the Loam against control but for 1 cycling lands/Coliseum and other stuff against most other decks.

I don't know whether Garruk is all that good as I've found myself untaping 2 lands more often than making Bears so probably he'd be better of as a Werebear (you have better means of fighting control and he's pretty bad against aggro).
I've also not found myself in the position of needing 6 mainboard discard spells yet, maybe a Thoughtseize could make room for Werebear n°3.

Edit: Just found this (http://www.magiceternal.com/intuition-loam.html) article discussing a simlar deck and its development.

Pinder
01-02-2008, 12:20 PM
I don't know whether Garruk is all that good as I've found myself untaping 2 lands more often than making Bears

Yeah, that's pretty accurate. Right after you drop him he's basically an enchantment that untaps lands for free for a while. When he makes dudes, it's usually to block, but it's not unheard of to go into the red zone with a 3/3. The overrun is a nice finisher, too, but ultimately Garruk's main function is to untap lands in a very mana hungry deck. This may not seem like a lot, but it certainly helps a lot. And he pumps Goyf and extra +1/+1, too. In short, Garruk is there to smooth mana and make blockers. I rarely go on the offensive with this guy.

Bryant Cook
01-03-2008, 01:18 PM
I like this deck a lot, but wouldn't a few manlands be amazing with Garruk?

Lego
01-03-2008, 02:44 PM
I like this deck a lot, but wouldn't a few manlands be amazing with Garruk?

The biggest issue with manlands is that you need blue, black, and green mana in the first three turns, and double green very quickly. There's a limit to the number of colorless lands you can pack into the deck, and I think CIP lands are a big nono. In Pinder's latest list, you could maybe fit one manland, but it doesn't seem worth it. You're never going to want to Intuition for it, so you've got Brainstorm and Life to find it. Adding more that one risks the stability of the manabase.

Peter_Rotten
01-03-2008, 05:45 PM
Is there a currently updated list for the most "accurate" testing?

Pinder
01-03-2008, 06:40 PM
Is there a currently updated list for the most "accurate" testing?

I updated the OP to include my latest list. I don't want to have to keep changing the card choices section every time I make any small change, so I just tacked it onto the bottom. For reference, I'll keep updating the bottom of the OP with any changes to ensure it's the most recent list (that I'm using anyway), until the deck stops changing enough to warrant changing the card choices section.

Also,



OMG - Though (presumably) an obscure reference to a really old (and bad) Nintendo game, I loved it! Btw, you're welcome. :) - Bardo

It is, and thanks. I remember it from one of Spoony's reviews on YouTube, which someone linked in Mish-Mash. I hope I can tune it enough so that playing against it is like 'getting raped by a bunch of Cajun hillbillies' :tongue:


I like this deck a lot, but wouldn't a few manlands be amazing with Garruk?

I echo what Lego said here. I mean theoretically manlands would be the tits with Garruk, but I'm not sure if it's enough of a boost over what the deck is already capable of to warrant the strain on the manabase (either from CIP tapped lands or colorless factories).

edit - Unless of course you mean putting them into play tapped, then untapping them with Garruk. Which you probably do. Which is actually pretty nuts. Still though, I don't know if you see Garruk early enough to exploit that particular synergy effectively. It seems like by the time you have the Garruk/Manland thing set up, there's just better things the deck could be doing.

Tosh
01-04-2008, 01:40 PM
We have been doing some testing and have found that the Goblins matchup is very poor (esp. with lists that run Wort). Also, although we haven't tested it against combo yet, I would imagine it has a bad matchup against combo. That is two decks that this practically throws game 1. Because of this, a sideboard is needed that will improve the Goblins and Combo matchups and I feel that the current sideboard (the one Pinder is playing with) only addresses Combo.

Also, I've found that Garruk isn't too game-breaking. Garruk's abilities seem trivial; the untapping two lands is great but does is it REALLY necessary?; the 3/3 token usually doesn't affect the game at all; and I have yet to see the overrun used to win a game. Thresh game 1 this deck beats the shit out of (esp. with Maze of Ith - good call!) without Garruk. Goblins is usually too fast for Garruk to even be played. Combo straight up doesn't care what on your field if doesn't affect their combo (eg LotV or M.Mage)

One more, I'd like to echo (can't seem to find where it was said) in that SDT would be a great include.

@Der_imaginäre_Freund: Your list looks pretty good (other than the Garruks, IMO). The sideboard address the right problem matchups although whether thats enough is for testing to tell.

Mental
01-04-2008, 02:56 PM
I've also been testing this deck online and found the following to be true:
-I get manascrewed more then Pinder does. I regularly mull down to 5-6, (maybe 'cause the deck hates me) when I draw a swamp and maze as my mana sources.
-Dedicated Control, like Landstill, reams you. IDK if I'm doing something wrong, but I can't for the life of me win this MU. The waste my mazes, counter my intuitions, and StP my goyfs.
-Aggro-Control is as good as ever. I don't lose to them.

Pinder
01-05-2008, 12:12 AM
-I get manascrewed more then Pinder does.


Actually, you don't. I was testing Goblins today (still horrible G1, btw. Working on that), and I had some of the shittiest hands and draws I've ever had. Sometimes Maze + Island would be my only lands. Sometimes a 2-land hand with only cycling lands. Ugh.

I made a couple more changes which seem to alleviate that somewhat, though. First, I switched out Brainstorm for Top. I really should have done this sooner. Also, I realized I was only running 4 fetchlands, so I went -1 Maze, -1 Island, -2 Forest, +4 Windswept Heath. The extra shuffling for Top as well as the minute deck thinning they provide has been a boon for finding what you need. I also switched the 3rd Trop for a 4th Bayou. You almost never need blue except for setting up with Intuition and having an Island for Wonder. Black is a lot more important.

I cut a Garruk for the 3rd Witness, too. I'm thinking of cutting him entirely to free up space, really. I know I raved about how good he is, and everything I said was true, but it just seems like even though he does amazing things when he lands he never lands often or early enough to turn a losing game into a winning one. When you have time/resources to cast him, you've generally stabilized enough that his abilities are just icing on a delicious, win-flavored cake. I saw him maybe once or twice in all of the games I've beaten Thresh (which this deck seems to be really good at), so I don't think I would be hurting that at all to get rid of him.

In my testing against Goblins, the thing I noticed most was that, while fighting Wasteland/Port, Deed is just too slow effectively clear the board against them. A lot of times I would get a Deed down, but not be able to pop it fast enough to avoid dying, or in the case that I could, for enough to avoid dying. You just have to commit entirely too much mana to it so you never get it early enough to be useful. What the deck needs is a spell that doesn't require you to commit 4 mana after playing it in order to clear their board. I'm thinking Infest (or perhaps its green cousin Hailstorm), but I'm not sure they're really good enough to warrant a maindeck slot. Perhaps Damnation, which is slightly more expensive but infinitely more versatile. BB isn't all that hard to get (although concievably it could be against Gobs), and 4 mana to clear the board of dudes, no questions asked, could be what the deck is looking for.

I'm also reconsidering Spike Feeder as a way to stall against Aggro/Combo. Another consideration for that slot is Ravenous Baloth who, while more expensive, is also a total beat stick. Spike Feeder making your Goyfs bigger is nice, though.



-Dedicated Control, like Landstill, reams you. IDK if I'm doing something wrong, but I can't for the life of me win this MU. The waste my mazes, counter my intuitions, and StP my goyfs.


I never found the matchup unwinnable, it was always about 50/50. Against Landstill specifically, I usually go for LftL/Cycling Land/Wasteland with an early Intuition (Therapy+Thoughtseize should be able to help make sure it resolves), in order to have a draw engine/out to their Manlands. Also, Gigaped e is more than just a cute trick here. As an un-swordsable, recurrable 6/1 (that flies, if you have Wonder), he makes for a stellar beater in this matchup, which typically goes long enough for you to get him down. In this respect, it might not be a bad idea to bump him up to 2 again.

Goaswerfraiejen
01-05-2008, 12:58 AM
Yeah, Mongoose is one of the cards that shines in my build against Goblins (goes a long way towards letting you set up Deed) and Landstill (because they're mini-Gigapedes that are easy to recur). I'm not sure how you'd go about replacing that effect, however. Especially in the Goblins matchup, where Vial becomes a problem through the mana-hate.

About the mana screw, though: have you tried cutting out the rest of the cycling lands entirely in favour of a Cephalid Coliseum or two (and more real lands, which you've already begun doing)? While it provides mana in your minor colour, it would certainly help smooth out those opening hands (not least by getting rid of cycling lands). It also digs pretty damn deep for answers and makes a fantastic Intuition target. With Top in your deck, it just gets cooler.

Pinder
01-05-2008, 01:12 AM
Yeah, Mongoose is one of the cards that shines in my build against Goblins (goes a long way towards letting you set up Deed) and Landstill (because they're mini-Gigapedes that are easy to recur). I'm not sure how you'd go about replacing that effect, however. Especially in the Goblins matchup, where Vial becomes a problem through the mana-hate.

About the mana screw, though: have you tried cutting out the rest of the cycling lands entirely in favour of a Cephalid Coliseum or two (and more real lands, which you've already begun doing)? While it provides mana in your minor colour, it would certainly help smooth out those opening hands (not least by getting rid of cycling lands). It also digs pretty damn deep for answers and makes a fantastic Intuition target. With Top in your deck, it just gets cooler.

I might just have to break down and Coliseum it up. I'll let you know how it goes. My only main qualm is that it has to eat a land drop to let you draw cards, which doesn't lend itself to the whole Dredge/Loam/Cycle/Dredge/Loam/Cycle/Go Nuts plan. But we'll see.

Mental
01-05-2008, 02:37 AM
My problem with landstill was this:
-No decent landstill player lets intuition resolve. Seriously. You would think discard would help, but the build I play against runs BStorm + 8 counters so it rarely actually does.
-Wasteland > Me.
-Standstill really, really, sucks.
-I was playing against a build with Faerie Conclave, so wonder isn't even great.
-Once they bring in Extipirtate, well, that sucks too.

FakeSpam
01-06-2008, 03:48 PM
I might just have to break down and Coliseum it up. I'll let you know how it goes. My only main qualm is that it has to eat a land drop to let you draw cards, which doesn't lend itself to the whole Dredge/Loam/Cycle/Dredge/Loam/Cycle/Go Nuts plan. But we'll see.

I've found that Coliseum and Horizon Canopy are sub-par in every way to cycling lands when running loam. It's just much better to not waste land drops on drawing cards.

Maybe your experience will be different.

Pinder
01-06-2008, 05:52 PM
Maybe your experience will be different.

I doubt it. That was my concern too. But maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

BreathWeapon
01-06-2008, 08:50 PM
I doubt it. That was my concern too. But maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

There's a huge difference between 2 CIP lands and 1 U land in the deck tho', granted Coliseum isn't as good as the CIP lands at drawing cards, but the CIP lands cost space.

That's a trade off that has to be kept in mind when testing both of the Loam engines.

Pinder
01-16-2008, 04:21 AM
New list! I'll update the OP as well:


// Lands
2 [R] Tropical Island
4 [U] Bayou
2 [TSP] Forest (1)
1 [MR] Island (4)
1 [R] Swamp (1)
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [ON] Barren Moor
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [JU] Genesis
2 [JU] Wonder
3 [LOR] Shriekmaw
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [ON] Gigapede
1 [SH] Spike Feeder

// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
4 [TE] Intuition
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top


//(Tentative) Sideboard
3 Ground Seal
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Infest
4 Pithing Needle



Notable Changes:

Brainstorm -> Sensei's Divining Top: Yeah, I know, I should have done this already. Top gives you lasting card quality and excellent selection. Also, it puts an artifact in the deck for Tarmogoyf as well. It's not uncommon that I'll be holding a Top in hand with one on the board, so I let the one on the table die to Deed or whatnot. Overall though, with Intuition+Fetches as shuffle effects, this thing can pretty much grab you what you need, when you need it.

2 Forests, 1 Island and 1 Swamp -> 4 Windswept Heaths: When I was doing testing versus Goblins I noticed that I wasn't so much getting mana screwed, but color screwed (this was compounded by active Ports). After a while my friend asked me, "How many fetches are you running?". The issue was soon rectified. Like I mentioned above, they also increase the deck's synergy with tops. And there's still enough basics in the deck to have un-Wasteland-able sources of blue and black, as well as double green for Witness/Gigapede

-1 Maze of Ith: It's good, but it's not that good. It's a land that doesn't produce mana. You can only have so many.

No Garruks: He's spiffy and all, but when he's good you're already winning, and when you're not he doesn't do much to turn a losing game into a winning one. /cry at losing Goyf pump, but oh well.

Eternal Witness++: Good deck plays good cards. I never feel sad to rip one of these off the top, and it's a Regrowth that you can Genesis back.

Wonder++: This is sort of a sketchy decision, but I recounted a lot of games where I would have won if I had had flying, but was unable to get flying in the same turn I cast Intuition because I could only go for Wonder/Gigapede/Other card and pitch it on the next upkeep. I suppose this could also be mitigated by adding things I could pitch cards to and beat, like, oh I don't know, Wild Mongrel, but the issue there is that this requires 1 slot, where the Mongrel plan (though attractive, and not entirely discounted) needs me to dedicate 4 full slots in an already tight list. Also, Mongrels require you to have one on the board for this to work, whereas the double Wonder plan means all you have to do is resolve Intuition and you're guaranteed a Wonder in the yard.

Gigapede++: Tarmogoyf + Deed = not so much synergy. However, Goyf is necessary in that it comes down early to muddle up the board or provide early beats. More and more, though, I've taken the 'Get Gigapede/Blow everything up but Gigapede/beat face with Gigapede' route to victory in the late game against control. This is especially relevant against certain one mana white instants that make graveyard recursion difficult. Another bonus that Gigapede not dying to Deed has is that I don't have to keep skipping turns for summoning sickness in order to beat face like I do when I'm recurring Goyf. All around it makes an excellent finisher against slower decks, and is more than just a graveyard trick here.

Spike Feeder!: He's back! This deck really needs a way to stall Aggro (Goblins specifically, as it's the only Aggro MU I've tested as of yet). Throwing this guy out to trade with Piledriver/draw out Incinerators while you gain 4 life every turn is really pretty savage. And he makes your Goyfs bigger, which has been discussed. Might turn into Ravenous Baloth, which does essentially the same thing while being able to beat face, but recurring the bastard is mana intensive enough as it is, so I'm going to err on the side of caution and see if that :1: really makes a difference.

A sideboard!: Yeah, it's about time. This is a rough idea mind you, but it addresses some of the weaker matchups I've found in testing.

3 Ground Seal: Extirpate is bad for you. Real bad. So are other cards that remove your Graveyard. Does nothing against Crypt, but we'll get to that in a second. Pros: Has the added bonus of essentially turning off Breakfast until they find a way to deal with it, as well as the Ghoul plan from Ichorid. Cons: Turns off Witness :frown:.

4 Leyline of the Void: Beats Ichorid, and Breakfast. And, um....other graveyard based combo strategies. Might be able to turn into something else, but you're pretty humped if Ichorid turn 1's you. Or turn 2's you. Or some-turn-before-you-can-resolve-Deed's you.

4 Infest: So you don't really notice at first, but Goblins has a wide range of costs between their dudes. It's usually really hard when fighting though Wasteland and Port to get Deed down and activate it for enough to actually clear enough of the board to stabilize before you're low enough that a stray fanatic and some Siege-flinging will kill you. What the deck needs in G2 is a spell that clears the board right when you resolve it. Has the added bonus of not killing Tarmogoyf like Deed does. Might turn into Damnation, but again the extra mana might be an issue here.

4 Pithing Needle: There are just so many things you can Needle. Crypt, Wasteland, Port, Vial, en-Kor guys, Survival, um....Shackles, manlands, etc.

The sideboard slots are highly malleable right now, and it might not be necessary to run 4 of some of them. But that's what I've got right now.

edit - Oh yeah, and I should probably fit Grips in there somewhere. Because they're Grips.

C-Aleric
01-16-2008, 09:14 AM
I'm bad at reading. So the content from this post was removed.

However, the part where I state that this is my favorite deck in the competition so far can stay.

Decks with Loam, Deed, Therapy, and Intuition deserve to be good, and I think this list is just full of pretty tricks. Congrats.

Pinder
01-16-2008, 05:29 PM
Sakura-Tribe Elder was considered, but the fact that he only grabs basics is sort of an issue, since you only run four of them. I realize that's probably the number of STEs you'd run, but it leaves little incentive to recur it because eventually you'll run out of basic lands. Ultimately it just seems like you'd run out of utility with the guy.

Soto
01-16-2008, 07:00 PM
The list looks great, I'm trying it out as we speak, but I would like to know what the single Wasteland is for. It seems like it is something you're going to tutor for but late game Wastelands are meh, right?

Nihil Credo
01-16-2008, 07:07 PM
The list looks great, I'm trying it out as we speak, but I would like to know what the single Wasteland is for. It seems like it is something you're going to tutor for but late game Wastelands are meh, right?
Not against Landstill, especially 4C.

Soto
01-16-2008, 07:10 PM
Not against Landstill, especially 4C.

But even then, they will probably have alot of lands in play and maybe even crucible.

Nihil Credo
01-16-2008, 07:24 PM
I hear hitting a manland every turn is sexy, even mid-to-lategame (T3+, really). As for Crucible, it's usually a two-of compared to your four Deeds.

Pinder
01-17-2008, 12:23 AM
Wasteland is in the deck because it's really good. It's a one of because it's really good in certain situations. Sure, Landstill has Crucible or whatever, but if that's the case you either wait till you can get rid of the Crucible or maybe you just don't use it at all. It's a one of for the Loam/Cycling Land/Wasteland Intuition stack. It's not always relevant, but when it is it can be game winning. It's pretty terrific against decks with low land counts and lots of nonbasics (see: Threshold, some combo), and decks which abuse lands (see: Landstill, 43Land, etc.). Notice that your opponent missed a land drop and is riding one basic and two duals? Whip out the Loam/Waste-lock and keep them out of the game. Sure it eats your land drops, but they're not always going to drop something for you to Wasteland every turn. Once they stop hitting lands, you can feel free to continue on your merry way while they try to piece together their board.

Basically, Wasteland is there so you can pull it out in the situations where having a Wasteland every turn would be gamebreaking.

edit - Against Landstill, another cool thing is that animated lands have a CMC of zero, and Deed doesn't say 'nonland' anywhere.

Illissius
01-17-2008, 06:22 AM
What about Dust Bowl? Dust Bowl interacts better with Loam (you only have to skip every third draw), while Wasteland is better with Crucible. Wasteland, however, is probably better when you just randomly draw into it.

Pinder
01-18-2008, 01:52 AM
Quick update before I go see Cloverfield:


Goblins matchup: Still bad.
Testing Cabal Therapy -> Hymn (results inconclusive as of yet)
WTB more land kthx?
Thresh matchup: Still good.

Pinder
01-22-2008, 02:50 AM
Double post for the bump.

Got another round of testing in today against Goblins, and while G1 is still pretty horrible short of a miracle, postboard things get a lot easier if you bring in a single card: Propaganda.

The main difficulty that you have against Gobs is that they can get off to a fast start while simultaneously denying you resources that you need to set up and stabilize. Propaganda single-handedly solves both of these problems by disrupting their resources (Piledriver is a lot less scary when they can only attack with 2 creatures a turn instead of playing guys, for example). It generally gives your opponent a choice between developing their board or attacking (whereas normally they would do both), which gives you precious time to stabilize via Deed or Genesis/Shriekmaw or what have you. Also, between Propaganda and Maze of Ith, you can make it very hard for them to push through damage. There's some slight dissynergy with Deed, but if you're Deeding for enough to take out Propaganda, that's a blessing in and of itself because you've likely cleared their entire board. It's not that hard to play around, and if you play it smart you can have another ready in hand or a way to get Witness to bring back the one you killed.

In the 6 postboard games versus Gobs I ended up 4-2, which is an incredible improvement over the 1-9 or so record this deck has preboard with the little red men.

Another consideration is Engineered Plague, which is actually more on color, and has the potential to lock them out of the game via double Plague. It doesn't keep them from swinging right off the bat, though, and they can still push through damage if you can't find a second one. Overall it seems like Propaganda is a lot harder for them to fight through, which is important because you've likely taken some damage before Propaganda even comes down.

And I realized Ground Seal turns off Genesis, so there are slots in the board just waiting for them.

Also:

-Still testing Hymn over Cabal Therapy, and I'm liking it so far. Can't really say definitively which is better, as there are always times when I wish I had Therapy or vice versa, but second turn Hymns are great.
-I'm considering a Tabernacle maindeck. It seems like it would pose a similar problem to Aggro as Propaganda (develop your board or keep your board), and in combination with Propaganda makes it all but impossible to attack. Can be Wastelanded, but also recurred with Loam.

Pinder
02-08-2008, 03:50 AM
Triple post for contest entry. Just wanted to let the judges know that the most current list (now with sideboard!) is up there. The sideboard might still change, but it will be set before the end of Friday the 8th.

Peter_Rotten
02-10-2008, 05:20 PM
Quick post just to say - OUCH! Leyline is a B-TANG against this deck :shock:. It actually made me lose to a mono-green Uktabi Wildcats deck on MWS. I whupped him game one and then game 2 and 3 multiple Leylines stole the day. However, Maze-ing Molimo was fun... until Desert Twister ripped Maze a new one :frown:

Pinder
02-10-2008, 05:26 PM
Quick post just to say - OUCH! Leyline is a B-TANG against this deck :shock:. It actually made me lose to a mono-green Uktabi Wildcats deck on MWS.

This is compounded by the fact that I seem to have totally forgotten to put Grips in the board in my latest update, Leyline being why they were there in the first place. Contest entry is over, so do what you will, but those Labs should probably be 3 Grips and 1 Gigapede. But whatever. Maybe you'll win more against combo now.

Still though, Leyline is tough either way.