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Elmi
12-30-2007, 06:00 AM
Hi Everyone!

Introduction

Last year, I developped a deck designed to combat Threshold and Pikula-like decks (when Leylines weren't played and the only grave hate was Crypt), which were really present in my metagame. It was a Gwu Loam deck, with mainly Grunts against Thresh, FoWs against combo, and I had to add Confinement (which wasn't the main idea but was necessary to win against goblins). You may see the list here (http://www.magictrade.org/index.php?mod=decview7500&categorie=Comp%E9tition&typeselected=Type%201.5#mtpowaaa) (simply put your mouse on french names to see english scans). I made Top16 at last Belgian Legacy Champs with it, but with the release of Extirpate, and the growing presence of Uwb fish (which was surprisingly a bad matchup), I stopped playing it. Now, with Threshold more present than ever, I started thinking about a new list. You might see very few simularities with the old list. That's true. The main thing that remained is blue, which I think is underplayed in Loam decks.

I guess many of you haven't tested Brainstorm with Loam. Guys, we have a Trall in Legacy! A classic situation: you play Loam, get 2 Lands and 1 Cycler, then you play Brainstorm, you draw 3 cards, put those lands on top, then Cycle your land to dredge loam and get rid of those lands. Ok, the trick costs a bit more than a Trall to be honnest, but the card advantage and card quality it provides are amazing.

Current list

// Lands
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
3 Lonely Sandbar
4 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
2 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

As you can see, you must all know every card played in this deck, but some might seem strange in a Loam deck. Actually it looks like a janky mix between Threshold and Loam.

Rather than describing card choices, as everyone knows them, I'll explain some (good and worse) interactions.

Some interesting interactions

BS + Loam: already explained
SDT + Loam: you select what you want to draw, and you dredge cards you don't want to see, and you won't see them again.
SDT + Counterbalance: obvious
Counterbalance + Loam in graveyard: helps you often having a free "scry 1" before getting SDT. You see your next draw and are able to dredge it if you don't want it.
SDT + Confidant: obvious
Stronghold + Counterbalance: you might have 2 CC and 3 CC creatures in your yard. You want to get them back, but why not counter a spell in addition thanks to them?

Goyf is often 6/7 thanks to dredge and all "old" types of cards that are in the deck.

Mox is really usefull not only as an accelerator, but also against anti non basic lands strategy (which becomes played a lot). The deck also plays one of each basics, each one being useful in some situations (I might cut the Swamp though).

Some weaknesses

Mox, Creatures, Counterbalance + Deed: You might think there is a bad synergy between those. Actually, Deed helps a lot as the only piece of removal the deck has. When the opponent has the advantage on table, you won't mind losing some permanents to get rid of all of their threats. The deck has an amazing card advantage. Deed is necessary in so many situations, you'll never regret it.

Counterbalance with 29 0 CC cards!? Ok, let's compare with Thresh: it plays about 25 1CC cards, and about 15 2CC cards. LoamBalance plays only 12 1CC spells, but 14 2CC spells (usually more after side) and 5 3CC spells. Think about it, are there that many 1 CC spells you have to counter? When you have an active SDT, you are sure to counter crucial ones like StP, or when they have an empty hand, by putting SDT on Top of your library. You may actually bluff your opponent too when you don't have SDT by cycling a land when they know the card on top. And with an active SDT and the ability to dredge everything you don't like, tons of fetchlands and Brainstorms, you're sure to have what you'll need on top of your library quite often.

Cards not played

No FoW?!? Ok, though one. I'd rather play discard and Counterbalance than having to play suboptimal blue cards to be able to play FoW. Look, I only play 7 blue cards maindeck. I thought about playing it in sideboard, but even there you'll need to have more blue cards to bring to make it usefull. Finally a deck with blue and no FoW? Well, at least it's something almost new for the contest :tongue:

Wild Mongrel and other creatures: I currently feel there is no slot for this amazing creature (with loam, of course). The deck plays few creatures, because of deed. Confidant is necessary because you'll need card advantage when you don't have Loam, and the curve is really low. Terravore is the big finisher, you'll find him eventually. You'll never have that many useless lands in hand thanks to Brainstorm and card quality SDT offers.

Sideboard

The fourth Deed is obvious, you'll need them against all kinds of aggro decks, as well as prison decks.

Stifle: I'm currently looking for cards to help Goblins and strorm ombo matchups. Stifle helps against storm combo. What I need against Goblins is a way to stop their card advantage. Stifle and Thoughtseize help to achieve this goal.

Hydroblast: It also helps against red aggro decks, TES, Belcher and Dragon Stompy (which is played a lot currently). I've replaced them with Plague, which works a lot better against goblins (especially when you're able to play it faster thanks to Mox Diamond).

Leyline of the Void: It helps against Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast and might help against IGG (they won't win with goblins because you play Deed). I've replaced them with Extirpate. LotV may be bounced with Chain of Vapor, and come back too late. Now that I play Plague, Extirpate is a nice addition to deal with Bridges when there is a Plague on Horror. Extirpate is also better against Threshold with a weak manabase (Waste Trop then Extirpate them or deal with a Goyf and Extirpate them which also works against Cephalid Brekfast) and might be good against storm combo (and Loam mirrors).

Needle on Deed might be problematic too. Against Thresh it's not really a problem except when paired with an active Countertop, but against decks like Faerie Stompy, Needle on Deed then Chalice for 2 might be annoying. So I added 2 Engineered Explosives.

Some testings

One of the greatest advantages with the deck is that you're able to bluff being a black splashed Threshold deck (Blue lands, Countertop, Goyfs, Brainstorm, ...).

Threshold is really an easy matchup, as everything you play is a threat for them. Their only hope is trying to be a beatdown deck, while being able to deal with Goyfs and Deeds, before you get an active loam or counterbalance engine.

White Stax is also easy. They'll often think they play against Threshold, and won't expect deed. Even if they know your deck, it's still an easy matchup thanks to deed, amazing card advantage and strong beaters/finishers. Crucible + Waste isn't a problem for LoamBalance too.

Goblins is rather hard. The deck has very few maindeck solutions against turn 1 lackey. Even with deed, their card advantage will often be deadly. Lots of people think that with Goyf, Goblins becomes an easy matchup for them, and as before overstate their win %. I've not made serious testings with the new sideboard yet, but now it might help enough thanks to Stifle and Hydroblast.

Chalice based Aggro are favorable. They hate deed and when you've dealt with some threats, they have almost no CA to recover. Dragon Stompy is really good (Blood Moons don't hurt much thanks to Moxen, basics and Hydroblasts), as is Green Stompy (saw it some times on MWS). Faerie Stompy might be harder, if they have an early equiped beater and I can't resolve a Deed.

I've played against tons of other aggro decks (RG Goyf, 9 lands Stompy, WW, ...), and lost about 2 on 10 matches. Counterbalance and Deed really shine there.

Landstill is rather good too. At least, without Extirpate (I haven't tested yet against black splashed, it's obviously worse, but don't know if it becomes unfavorable). With Loam, you'll have a better card advantage. They don't like recursive wastelands, theirs don't hurt you. Stronghold helps you recurring threats to seal the game.

Against Loam decks, you have an advantage: Counterbalance. I've won surprisingly a game against 43lands thanks to it. You prevent them from playing Loam, you get some Moxen for mana, you waste Mazes and other annoying lands they can't recurr anymore, and you kill them with a 30/30 Terravore.

I haven't tested a lot against combo. I've won surprisingly 2 random MWS matches against Belcher and TES, thanks to Thoughtseize, Hydroblast, Countertop, and mainly bluffing playing FoW :laugh: But when they know what you're playing, I think the matchup becomes difficult.

Overall, it's a really difficult deck to play, with really strong cards and some broken plays. I'd like to test a bit more now, but I'll be soon in exams, so I'll not test much before end of January.

Thanks for reading, and forgive my English mistakes :wink:

Osse
12-30-2007, 03:26 PM
The biggest problem I see right now is the interaction between Deed and Cbalance. I'm playing something that runs both cards (between side/main) and I've always had a problem with running both. Cbalance doesn't deal with resolved threats, while Deed does, but also turns off your 'soft lock'. I'm just wondering if you've seen any of the same.

Not Running FOW, I'm actually happy about this as I see people running FoW and shoving 20 some bad blue cards just to make sure it works.

4 Loam, 3 Confidant: I think these should be switched, Confidant is insane in Loam decks, all the time.

4 SDT, 3 Cbalance: I think these numbers should be switched. Or maybe cut 1 SDT for 1 Terravore. 3 Terravore is amazing in here, especially with 4 Confidant.

Pretty much love the mana base, nice job.

Elmi
12-30-2007, 04:49 PM
Thanks for your interest!

As I explained, Deed and Counterbalance might seem to interact badly. But in testings, it has rarely been an issue. If you have an early active countertop (which isn't what you'll usually want to have during first turns except against combo and some slow/controlish decks), you usually won't need Deed before some time so you'll have the time to find another one or generate massive CA. But Counterbalance paricularly shines AFTER a Deed, when you'll want to counter their new threats.

About numbers, I'm not sure about everything maindeck, but those are something I'm pretty confidant with:

4 Loam are absolutely necessary. You want to see them every game, even in multiples. Confidant is really nice, it's true, but the deck already has an amazing card advantage thanks to loam. It shines against Control, as Loam does. But it's almost strictly inferior to loam first game. It dies to Fanatic and removal, helps aggro to achieve their goal and has a worse interaction with Deed. Confidant is insane in Loam decks for sure (especially when you're able to play him turn1), but isn't Loam more insane? If I had to cut something for a fourth confidant, I think it would be Counterbalance.

SDT is also crucial to this deck. It interacts with everything. You have massive Card Advantage, but you want Card Quality to deal with faster decks. Having 2 SDT isn't an issue, it basically cycles for 1 as you have tons of fetchlands and you can dredge them too. You really want to see one every game, as fast as possible.

A third Terravore might be nice, but the deck acts more like a Control deck than Aggro-Loam so I see it as a finisher. You're almost sure to see one when you've got the loam engine, and when you don't have an active Loam, it's not as good as Goyf. I've thought about Witness too, but she doesn't get back much more things than Stronghold, and non land slots are precious.

Osse
12-31-2007, 12:35 AM
I think you're oversimplifying your Threshold matchup. I know when I was pushing Aggro Loam, my biggest problem was with Cbalance/Top (I really just couldnt beat it). Deed is obv good here, but without anything to push it through, except your opponent being bad, its not enough. I mean, you can at best rival their draw engine with Loam and Confidant but your card quality over theres is shaky. You NEED Deed in that matchup, and you need to keep their threats off the board, especially Confidant. Like, i think your threshold matchup is almost a Pseudo mirror where you run a diff draw engine and no counters, and no spot removal. I'm not sure how to beat Threshold quite yet, but I think Shackles, or something like Smokestack is needed. Maybe Braids?

Elmi
12-31-2007, 06:28 AM
This is a question I hadn't expected, since the deck was build to fight against Threshold. As I said, every card I play is a threat for them:

They've to deal with an early confidant
Tarmogoyf grows really fast and acts as a nice blocker to stall
They've to take the advantage on table before Counterbalance hits it or before Loam + Wasteland prevent them to cast their threats
Deed will help to prevent them getting the advantage
Top generates an amazing card quality, you must know how it shines in Threshold mirror
Thoughtseize will prevent them to counter our gameplan (usefull in both situations: when they're trying to be control or aggro)
Loam, Stronghold and Terravore will make you sure to win if the game lasts long enough


I'm a Threshold player too, and I've tested against diverse lists:

UGw was the easier, they're simply too slow, and their controlish elements aren't that effective against you. Thoughtseize and Wasteland help you being the control deck. You'll eat their mana or be the first to have an active countertop while they can't win with creatures.

UG was easy too, as they haven't a way to deal with your creatures. Bringing Countertop hurts more than it helps them, as they're really bad at control. Their only chance is to get quickly Threshold and chain beaters before you're able to control them, but it usually won't work.

UGb Threshold is a bit harder. They'll bring Extirpate, they usually play Countertop too, my version plays Confidant and Thoughtseize which are good against LoamBalance. And they have some removal. But in my testings, LoamBalance still has the advantage (I'd say 60-40). I've even won a game where Loams and Deeds were quickly Extirpated.

Surprisingly (maybe not after these comments on how Thresh is bad as control against LoamBalance), UGr (disrupt)Thresh was the hardest one. It's a version with Stifle Waste, Werebears, Bolts, Spell Snares, which doesn't even play Countertop in sideboard. It can disrupt your mana and be much more agressive than other versions, while being able to have a huge tempo advantage thanks to Spell Snare. I won a bit more than I lost, though.

Concerning MWS Testings, when adding the surprise factor (opponent usually thinks he plays against Thresh or Loam), they really seemed to be helpless against unexpected threats the deck plays (an opponent even thought I was playing a strange version of Thresh as I haven't seen a single Loam both games but still raped him, so he took White Stax for a second match thinking he would rape me... He was surprised to lose 2-0 as White Stax is actually a really good matchup).

Elmi
12-31-2007, 12:22 PM
I've made some changes to the sideboard:

I've removed 4th Confidant and Counterbalance, as there might be better solutions against specific problems, and you don't want to see too much Counterbalances, 3 is fine.

I've added 2 Explosives, to have more removal and to have a solution against Needle on them.

I've replaced Hydroblast by Plagues. After testing, they're better against Goblins and are usefull in several other matchups too (Tribal decks, Cephalid Breakfast, Ichorid, ...).

I've replaced Leylines by Extirpate, because they're nice with Plagues against Ichorid and they're more versatile.

Elmi
01-02-2008, 09:05 AM
Some new test results, as there aren't many reactions...

Goblins with new side:

Game1 is really hard, but after side, Plague is really nice. There are usually two situations: you deed and resolve a plague not too late, letting you some time to find a second one or beat them with huge creatures, or you resolve a plague as fast as possible (sometimes turn 2 thanks to mox). They are still able to win thanks to ringleaders, warchiefs and piledrivers. So overall it remains a bad matchup, though winnable.

Ichorid:

Good matchup, there are usefull things to bring against them. Even game1 is winnable.

Fast Combo (tests against TES):

Game 1 is really though if you don't know what they're playing (particularly if they don't expect force). You can steal some wins thanks to Thoughtseize and Wastelands or an early Counterbalance.
After side and knowing their deck, stifle helps a lot. You have nothing against a turn 1 kill on the play, but in each other situation it's not that bad.

I'd like to test against Belcher. They have only 1 kill, as you have tons of answer to ETW (and Mox), but dealing with Charbelcher is hard.

Overall, goblins and fast combo (except Breakfast) are rather bad matchups, but every other deck to beat seems favorable (not tested yet against Burn, Black Suicide and Survival though).