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Jaiminho
12-30-2007, 01:51 PM
I gave up on this deck... retiring it from this competition to save the judges' time.

Waikiki
12-30-2007, 02:20 PM
How does it beat combo? I dont see any SB either

Jaiminho
12-30-2007, 02:29 PM
I will post sideboard later, as said on the footnote.

It doesn't have a good match up with almost any of the combo decks, as it is the faith of aggro decks, even though it can easily handle relatively low storm counts for EtW (12 or less tokens). On the play it can land Meddling Mage on turn 2 to slow things down a bit. Sideboard will pack Stifles for storm or Echoing Truths for tokens... still testing stuff.

Puzzle
12-30-2007, 02:37 PM
I don't like Fire // Ice. You already have enough removal and it's expensive either way for your purposes. I'd rather see a cheap counter instead (Daze, Mana Leak or such).
I'd also rather play 4 Brainstorm + 2 Ponder, if any at all. However, this deck is aggro and Brainstorm and Ponder just delay it for little to no apparent benefit. I'd play neither here and rather some more cheap (free) counters or burn to gain tempo.

I like the rest of the deck though.

Jak
12-30-2007, 02:49 PM
How has Jotun Grunt been? I just hate the card because playing it turn two is usually bad, and when he comes into play around turn four or five, why not have played an Exalted Angel or something? There is also that other Angel that costs four, 1:u: :w: :r: .

scrumdogg
12-30-2007, 02:56 PM
Grunt may be decent in a world of Goyf & Threshold...but I would also be curious why Lightning Angel wasn't included. This deck doesn't avoid the land bounce drawback of Sea Drake & both the vigilance & extra point of toughness seem attractive.

Oh, and most awesome name BTW :cool:

Aggro_zombies
12-30-2007, 03:11 PM
I had worked on a deck like this a while ago, but it used Trinket Mage for an artifact toolbox and tried to abuse Counterbalance (back before that was cool). Counterbalance is still a good inclusion, especially maindeck.

ApokalypseKid9
12-30-2007, 03:18 PM
the sea drake seems poor with no way to not bounce the lands, and I think that exalted angel would be better, because it gives you a real late game when all your other cards cost 2 or less.

Sanguine Voyeur
12-30-2007, 03:23 PM
I had worked on a deck like this a while ago, but it used Trinket Mage for an artifact toolbox and tried to abuse Counterbalance (back before that was cool). Counterbalance is still a good inclusion, especially maindeck.Like Trinket Angels from Extended a year ago? I think [could be wrong] that was UWR Fish with Trinket Mage, Countertop, and some Angels.

Grunt is a good inclusion in white aggro decks that don't use 'goyf. When ever it's come down to the two, Grunt has always won in combat for me. Exalted Angel could be a strong inclusion if the curve fits.

Aggro_zombies
12-30-2007, 03:56 PM
Like Trinket Angels from Extended a year ago? I think [could be wrong] that was UWR Fish with Trinket Mage, Countertop, and some Angels.
Sort of.

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [PT] Island
1 [US] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Silver Knight
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Jaiminho
12-30-2007, 05:19 PM
Jötun Grunt: It is amazing in most games, since I can trash a considerable amount of cards to keep him for 2 turns. It shines way more often than it is a burden.

Sea Drake: Bouncing 2 lands is not a problem, since this deck is so light on casting costs. I'm afraid adding Exalted Angel and Lightning Angel would the deck too heavier/slower.

Cantrips: They never seemed slow enough to be a drawback. I even find them useful because of the biggest weakness RW builds have, which is the complete lack of control over what you draw. It's never good to be in permanent topdeck mode.

Daze: This could slow the deck too much, as it would be one less turn to get to the bigger guys (Drakes or Angels, if they are worth the spot) and would suffer from the Drake bouncing my lands.

More burns: I like Fire/Ice for what it does (kills up to 2 creatures, burns 2 in the face or taps an annoying creature while drawing), even though it is a little expensive. Still, I refuse to include Chain Lightning, since it would suck as a removal spell, in case I needed to. And I don't like Lightning Helix in this deck, for it costs 2 colored mana while not being versatile as Fire/Ice.


I will consider all these and test them all. I may be wrong in many arguments here.

thefreakaccident
12-30-2007, 09:14 PM
The thing about just using blue as a support color in deck like this means that decks that do use permission will have the final word in things... landstill will decide whether or not if it is a threat or if they have removal for it.

Against combo, meddling mage will not cut it, you will need more disruption or else you will loose.

I think countermagic in the form of daze and force of will must be added before it can possibly ever be competative... sorry mate.

AngryTroll
12-30-2007, 10:29 PM
More burns: I like Fire/Ice for what it does (kills up to 2 creatures, burns 2 in the face or taps an annoying creature while drawing), even though it is a little expensive. Still, I refuse to include Chain Lightning, since it would suck as a removal spell, in case I needed to. And I don't like Lightning Helix in this deck, for it costs 2 colored mana while not being versatile as Fire/Ice.


I will consider all these and test them all. I may be wrong in many arguments here.

Magma Jet is probably better than Chain Lightning or Helix, as it is easier on the casting cost, instant speed, and Scrys. See the Thread about Fire/Ice.

Force of Will: Could this be a deck that could actually play Force in the Sideboard for combo? In that case, burn and swords to plowshares can be removed for Force and (Stifle/Daze/Hydroblast/whatever), increasing the blue card count from 14 (if you remove Fire/Ice for Magma Jet) to 18+ to support Force. That gives you Force, Meddling Mage, and then another 4 cards to play against combo without sacrificing the aggro focus of the mainboard. I have never seen that idea even discussed (running Force in the Sideboard), but this seems to be a case where the mainboard cannot support it, but combo hate is needed in the sideboard.

Versus
12-30-2007, 11:53 PM
I think Stifle and possibly Orim's Chant in the SB would be more than adequate against combo. Both are only 1cc of the more dominant colors as well so there shouldn't be a problem supporting them.

Jaiminho
01-01-2008, 04:49 PM
In recent tests, I had 3 Stifles and 3 Chats in the sideboard and those slowed me down, since I couldn't afford to cast anything that would get me out of mana. I also tried 4 FOWs (in the SB also) and they seemed very good for countering key spells like Ill-Gotten Gains, Aluren and Burning Wish.

AngryTroll
01-01-2008, 05:04 PM
I think the Forces are pretty tech. You don't lose the aggro focus of the deck mainboard, and games two and three you can tap out for creatures instead of holding mana for Orim's Chant.

Were bringing in Forces and Stifles enough to pull together games two and three, or does the deck really need to try and pick up game one?

Jaiminho
01-01-2008, 07:03 PM
I tested only against Belcher and IGGy Pop this last time.

Against IGGy Pop, it was still a bad match. Force on IGG wouldn't do much, as a big EtW could follow it (pumped by my own Force). I'd need both Stifle and Force to do something. Orim's Chant is a better answer to this deck, but the problem with this card lied on IGGy Pop having Orim's Chant also. After they cast their own, I was forced to counter it or respond with my own Chant, merely slowing them for a single turn.

With Belcher, things went way smoother. After a Stifle on EtW or a Force on Belcher/Wish or Chant in response to Wish, game was basically over.

Carrying all those 3 on SB may be necessary, but it would take 11 slots. I still didn't test against control, so I don't know if this is possible. I'm progressing slowly here.

kundera
01-06-2008, 07:05 PM
I'm the Legacy Boros guy cited by Jaiminho in the first post.

Whilst we were starting the matchup testings, he had not used the basic mountain in the decklist, and we found that to be a really big disadvantage against wastelocks, and the general use of Wasteland per se. But even this way, I don't feel comfortable with it, as red is pretty much a support color.

Does anyone have suggestions for the manabase? The present combination of fetchlands, duals and basics is enough? Much of this will be sorted through testing, but I would like us to find the best starting point possible.

noobslayer
01-06-2008, 10:47 PM
Sea Drake feels heavy for this deck.

Also, Force of Wills seem like a bad call,as almost all of your blue spells (barring the fatties), are conducive to you winning the combo match-up. Stifles and Chants should be enough hate to bring in.

Jaiminho
01-07-2008, 11:55 AM
Sea Drake isn't heavy for the deck. Its 3cc is easily reachable (18 lands + 6 cantrips) and the drawback does nearly nothing. It was only a slight burden when under heavy (as in more than only 4 Wastelands) land destruction. Wasteland alone now does little.


Chant does little against a combo deck that runs it (IGGy and TES do). Most you can do is respond their Chant with your own Chant and hope that extra turn is enough to win, which probably isn't. Against those, I always need 2 answers handy -- increasing the number of those cards increases my chance to find them. Against Ichorid, I need something to stop them from turn 1 discard and only FOW can achieve that. If they are delayed, Legionnaire (sacrifice it to remove bridges) and Jötun (graveyard removal) will be next chances to win. Also, meddling mage does little on the mentioned matches, while cantrips help me tremendously on finding the cards I need to not lose the game.

On Ichorid and TES, I'm theorizing, but I've done with IGGy (similiar to TES, but different nevertheless) and it was not a good match up. With 2 hate cards in my hand, that match was much better, but I couldn't afford to mulligan until I had what I need. I was forced to keep most of the times with a single hate card. Remember I basically have zero maindeck resistance against combo.